Toxic Logic
Confusion is at the heart of the narcissistic dynamic. Confusion causes several things to happen. You provide fuel far more readily, you submit to our control, you are easier to manipulate, your blame yourself, you cling on tighter and you do not move forward. Confusion reigns during devaluation. Confusion abounds post escape and especially post discard. Confusion keeps appearing during the hoovers which inevitably appear. The creation of confusion is a must for us if we are to keep our grip on you and achieve our aims. How many times have you said any of the following?
Why is he doing this?
I don’t understand why one moment she is fine and the next she is a howling banshee?
Why does he get so angry over nothing?
Why won’t he leave me alone?
I cannot work out what is wrong.
What’s the matter? What have I done wrong?
Why won’t you tell me what is the matter?
What was that for?
What did you say that for?
Why did you just do that?
These are all the common responses of victims who do not understand what is happening to them. This is because each and every single one of them is looking at the situation through their own world view and is accordingly applying their own logic to the situation. They are also doing so in a skewed fashion because that logic is heavily tainted by emotion which impairs clarity of thought. Not that our kind would complain about that.
One of the central planks to understanding the narcissistic dynamic is to understand our Toxic Logic. This is so-called because the effect of the application of our logic is that it has a toxic effect on you. Once you understand this toxic logic, you will make considerable advances into understanding why we behave as we do, why we say the things we do, why we react in the fashion that we do and why it impacts on you in such a fashion. You will not like this toxic logic. You will find it abhorrent but it is not necessary for you to like it. What you must do is apply it.
When you look at a situation adopting your worldview it is akin to staring into the dark of the night and looking into a forest. You may be able to see the trees because of the moonlight; you see lots of shadows but you cannot spot the man that is lurking there training a gun on you. Apply night vision goggles to that situation and all of a sudden you can see much more as they catch the infra-red section of the light spectrum and you can see the assassin clearly. Applying the toxic logic is the equivalent of switching to night vision. You will notice things that have been there all along. You will understand why we have responded in a certain way which has previously been a complete mystery to you.
Let us take the dinner table example. You have made dinner. you serve the four guests first, place a plate for yourself on the table and then serve your narcissist last. He knocks the plate to the floors spilling the food and breaking the plate. Your guests gasp. He stares at you, glowers and you watch shocked and puzzled as he storms off from the dining room. Why on earth did he just do that? Fifteen minutes later he returns, sits down and converses with you and the guests as if nothing has happened. How can he do that after such a display?
Looking at it from your worldview, you served the four guests first because that is polite. You then served yourself because your place setting was nearest to the food so that was practical. You served the narcissist last because he was furthest away and also you gave him more than the others since you didn’t have to save any of the food for anybody else, since everybody had been served. The evening had been proceeding in a friendly and pleasing fashion with everybody enjoying themselves. There is, from your worldview, no reason at all for this sudden display of temper.
He returns with no apology or sense of embarrassment at his behaviour and continues as if he has just been to the bathroom or to answer the door. He is pleasant and charming to both you and the guests. Again from your worldview, you are left puzzled by this behaviour. Who on earth behaves like that?
Now you apply the toxic logic and the reason is all too clear. By serving the narcissist last you told him through this action, which was not accompanied by any fuel, that he was not important. This was a criticism. This wounded him. His self-defence response to this wounding was the ignition of his fury. He could not keep it under control because of the type of narcissist that he is. The fury therefore manifested as heated fury. He tipped the plate to the floor spilling the food and breaking the plate. This caused drama and had all eyes on him. The guests were taken aback and their gasps of surprise and shock provided him with emotional attention, thus fuel. Your stunned reaction also provided him with fuel. He then walked out, drawing further emotional reaction from everybody assembled and in another room he has been able to draw on Thought Fuel as he imagines the ongoing reaction to his outburst. All of this fuel goes to the repair of the narcissistic wound that he has suffered. His fury will abate and he will return at some point as if nothing has happened.
Indeed, he returns, fury abated and is able to switch back without any show of concern to be charming and pleasant, thus drawing positive fuel from all those he is engaging with. Out of politeness, nobody mentions the incident, no doubt fearing a repeat performance.
This is but one example amongst millions that normal healthy people and empathic healthy people just cannot understand. Internally, those who witnessed the incident may be anxious, puzzled, pleased that it is over, wondering what caused it, wary of it happening again and a whole host of other thoughts. None of them will actually understand why it happened. It is only the application of the toxic logic that allows you to understand it.
So, what is this toxic logic? I shall example the main principles behind it. As you read these principles I know you will be thinking such thoughts as
But that is insane
That is ridiculous
Why live like that?
Can’t he or she see how crazy that looks?
Remember, it only appears that way because you are applying your own worldview to these principles. In order to understand and apply the toxic logic you have to let go of your logic – for the time being – and just accept that these are the principles we operate by. As I mentioned before, it is irrelevant whether you like them or agree with them. You should not feel any need to challenge them. You should just accept that this is the way that it is and once you do that, you will grasp why we are as we are. These are the principles of our toxic logic.
- Fuel and control are everything to us. It governs everything we do, whether by instinct or by calculation.
- Nothing is ever our fault. Nothing at all.
- We are entitled to do what we want, when we want, where we want, how we want and with whom we choose.
- You are the competition.
- Everybody is an appliance that yields fuel.
- If you do what we want, you are good.
- If you do not do what we want, you are bad.
- There is no middle, no grey, no inbetween.
- The end always justifies the means.
- We have no concept of remorse, guilt or a conscience.
- The world is against us.
- Anything that blocks, defies, challenges or calls into question our superiority wounds us., if it is done without providing fuel.
- We hate our control to be threatened, either unconsciously or consciously.
- If you wound us this ignites our fury.
- We must control our environment. Control is paramount to us.
- We do not recognise boundaries
- We have no empathy
- We mimic and copy to pretend we have certain emotions and feelings.
- We lie repeatedly.
- Fuel and control are everything to us – worth repeating.
This logic is toxic because the outcome is that you are manipulated. We abuse people, we use people, we trample on people and do so without any concerns at all for that person’s wellbeing. You will be considering such behaviour and outlook at odious and reprehensible and coming from an empathic individual that is entirely understandable.
Let us apply the toxic logic to another scenario.
You send your narcissist a text message asking when he will be coming home. You receive no reply. You text again. No reply. You ring. There is now answer. Your narcissist eventually appears at 2am when you are lying still awake in bed. There is no apology, no explanation and he says nothing to you but gets into bed and falls asleep. You are left worried, bewildered and upset.
From your world view you cannot understand why he did not respond to a perfectly reasonable text message. You cannot understand why he did not tell you he would be late. You know of no reason why he would stay out so late and not warn you. You find it hurtful and upsetting and you are confused because he is meant to love you and if someone loves someone then they do not behave this way. I have heard such comments many times.
Now apply the toxic logic.
The narcissist is entitled to do as he pleases. Thus if he wants to stay out, he can.
The narcissist is never to blame. Therefore, he feels no compulsion to warn you he will be late, to apologise for returning late or to offer any explanation.
Your text message sought to exert control over him. You are the competition. This is prohibited conduct.
The text message was not accompanied by fuel. By suggesting that he was beholden to you, this amounted to a perception of criticism by the narcissist. He felt wounded. Some narcissists could control the fury that is ignited and might have answered. This narcissist could not. His response was cold fury through a silent treatment. Hence the failure to reply and answer the ‘phone.
He gained Thought Fuel knowing that you would be concerned and worried at his failure to reply and him staying out late. This would heal the wound and abate the ignited fury.
He was justified treating you in this fashion because he is entitled and the end always justifies the means. Further, fuel is everything.
Thus, when looked at from the narcissist’s perspective, applying the toxic logic everything makes perfect sense to him, but viewed from your perspective it will not. The toxic logic will repeatedly explain to you why we suddenly erupt, go silent, suddenly apply the golden period again, why we carry on like normal afterwards, why we never apologise or if we do it is a false apology and so forth. Everything about what we say and do, how we behave and respond appears nonsensical, confusing and puzzling when looked at from your perspective. This means you give us fuel, try harder to please us, submit to our manipulations and remain in our grip. It also means that your empathic traits of needing to understand, wanting the truth, being good and decent and trying to help are catered for. Thus, sub-consciously, you are getting something you need from it, even though it is upsetting you, angering you or frustrating you. Our behaviour, lacking any logic in your world, keeps you where we want you and also caters for your empathic needs meaning you remain in place.
Every time something happens which perplexes you, you will suffer the consequences of our toxic logic. You are hurt, upset, mystified, anxious and so on. If, however, you apply our toxic logic to what has happened you will work out why it has happened. It is not always easy to do. it takes time to work it out. It takes discipline and repeated application in a way that is alien to you. You will not like it. You will not approve, but you will understand. Once you start to understand, you gain control. Once you start to understand, the toxic effects of being confused, bewildered and lost are ameliorated. Once you understand, you can begin to establish a way to deal with the application of this toxic logic so that the effects become less and less effective. You are then taking your first steps to freedom.
52 thoughts on “Toxic Logic”
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Reading the list above regarding ‘toxic logic’, the way the narcissist operates is far from ‘logical’ to me.
Treating everyone as competition (even their own children)? Feeling entitled to do whatever they want or choose? Not recognising boundaries? Not seeing other people as humans in the way they are human?
These ‘perspectives’ aren’t ‘logical’. They are delusional. They also come from a severely disordered ’emotional’ reaction or perception of how society ‘works’. Grandiosity, unlimited entitlement, and hypocrisy is not ‘logical’. Ignoring and evading laws and social norms willingly & intentionally, while feeling ‘fuelled’ if they get away with it is not ‘logical’.
It’s confusing to me when HG says emotional thinking ‘corrupts’ the empath’s traits, while the narcissist operates with ‘logic’.
That’s my perspective. I understand that empaths do behave from a place of corrupted emotional thinking due to their high levels of empathy. However, the narcissist also behaves from a place of corrupted and unrealistic ’emotional thinking’ of their own.
Just reading that list makes me angry.
Makes me a bit sad and shocked. Shocked, because how ill those people are and sad because how they were created. NPD seems to be 50-70 % heritable, that´s what I read. And then comes the lack of control environment, child abuse and the brain stops developing properly. The limbic system shuts down, the hippocampus shrinks, the amydgala shuts down, lack of gray matter in the anterior insula. And it´s not their fault.
Sorry Sensei, I look at it from the medical perspective (DSM-V etc.).
We Empaths, who are ACONs are also brain-damaged by the way. We all! Our limbic systems are hyperactive, hyperactive amydgala, shrank hippocampus.
Again Leela, you are a better person than I. I will hopefully get to the point where I see it as sad and shocked rather than angry. You give me hope for this with your comment.
AV, thank you very much, I appreciate that, but I´m just an analytical Carrier 😘 That´s how I was designed (if you will).
I’m an analytical Savior. I think that may be an oxymoron…
Obviously, I got Savior traits too, just not many. 🙂
I think I’m starting to understand that aspect of my makeup better. This discussion has helped.
Gimme a definition of a “good person”, I will give you another one, and another Emp will give you a completely different one 😉
Precisely. The very point I have made again and again and again. Perspective.
It’s dawning on me but in slow-mo.
Good point.
Leela, your medical perspective struck me after I sent the former comment. That perspective is one likely useful with my son. Asp Emp left a comment along these lines as well, with regard to successfully conveying to him information about narcissism. Thank you, good food for thought and study.
I had to dig deeper into the “hard stuff” 😉 anyway (professionally). So why not helping other Emps with some knowledge? ☺
Leela says, We Empaths, who are ACONs are also brain-damaged by the way. We all! Our limbic systems are hyperactive, hyperactive amydgala, shrank hippocampus.
I would love more info on this. Can you point me to where you read about this?
Me too Leela, please, if you are able. Thank you in advance.
Just put links and citations into a comment, hoping that is ok and H.G. lets them go through. 🙂 😉
Here we go: Some science, hope it´s allowed and the comment gets through:
Schulze, L., Dziobek, I., Vater, A., Heekeren, H. R., Bajbouj, M., Renneberg, B., Heuser, I., & Roepke, S. (2013). Gray matter abnormalities in patients with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Journal of Psychiatric Research, 47, 1363-1369.
Hope the link is allowed and works: https://narcissistfamilyfiles.com/2017/03/02/adult-children-of-narcissists-face-trauma-induced-health-risks/
https://cptsdfoundation.org/2020/06/22/the-neuroscience-of-narcissism-and-narcissistic-abuse/
Gu, X., Hof, P. R., Friston, K. J., & Fan, J. (2013). Anterior insular cortex and emotional awareness. Journal of Comparative Neurology, 521(15), 3371-3388.
Hagmann, P., Cammoun, L., Gigandet, X., Meuli, R., Honey, C. J., Wedeen, V. J., & Sporns, O. (2008). Mapping the structural core of human cerebral cortex. PLoS biology, 6(7).
Hotchkiss, S. (2008). Why is it always about you?: the seven deadly sins of narcissism. Simon and Schuster.
Lerner JS, Li Y, Valdesolo P, Kassam KS. Emotion and decision making. Annu Rev Psychol. 2015; 66:799–823.
Uddin, L. Q., Nomi, J. S., Hebert-Seropian, B., Ghaziri, J., & Boucher, O. (2017). Structure and function of the human insula. Journal of clinical neurophysiology: official publication of the American Electroencephalographic Society, 34(4), 300.
I quote:
“When children suffer at the hands of a narcissistic abuser, some crucial brain regions are affected, including damage to the hippocampus and amygdala. These changes lead to devastating effects on the lives of these children.
The hippocampus is essential for learning, and the development of memories and the amygdala is where emotions like fear, guilt, envy, and shame are born. Overstimulation by an abusive parent(s) of these vital areas in the brain leaves the child with a shrunken hippocampus and amygdala. Because these regions are smaller than average, the child will grow into adulthood with a sincere lack of the ability to handle their own emotions, especially those of shame and guilt.
The damage to the amygdala of the victims of narcissistic abuse become trapped in a permanent state of fear and anxiety and react badly to environmental triggers that remind them of the violation by the narcissist. This means that victims of narcissistic abuse are constantly alert to the danger that does not exist now.
This hypervigilance leads children of narcissists also leads to panic attacks, phobias, and other panic disorders that significantly inhibit them from living full and productive lives.”
Davis S. (2020). The Neuroscience of Narcissism and Narcissistic Abuse. CPTSD and Narcissistic Abuse, CPTSD Research (accessed on April 29th 2021).
Thank you!!
You´re welcome! 🤗
Thank you!
Holyfeckingsheet. That takes N abuse to a whole new level.
Exactly what I thought. But it makes a lot of sense too. It’s too painful to go into right now though. This is seriously hurt on hurt.
LFS, WOW, absolutely brilliant to read “The damage to the amygdala of the victims of narcissistic abuse become trapped in a permanent state of fear and anxiety and react badly to environmental triggers that remind them of the violation by the narcissist. This means that victims of narcissistic abuse are constantly alert to the danger that does not exist now” – this makes it absolutely clear – especially the bit about ‘environmental triggers’.
It is also explains further on why I have the tendency to ‘shut my inner door’ as soon as I sense or fear – certainly when I am unsure about the ‘environment’ or ‘social’ “situation”.
Bloody hell. Now that I have “got it” about me – I hope I can now start “living full and productive life” and not be too ‘prickly’ with those that CAN be trusted not to hurt me emotionally.
Thank you so much Leela for sharing this.
Thank you HG for your work, the unique writing style and entertaining reading, I really appreciate it. I learn more each day. In future, anyone who asks me “Who was / is your best Teacher who taught you important and life-changing education?” – my answer would be “HG Tudor, he is the best, the one and only”.
Okay, external links does not seem to be allowed, so then just google “children of narcissists brain scan”, you find the article I quoted and a couple of other good scientific stuff.
LFS, thank you for mentioning some specifics in relation to the brain. It prompted me to do some further reading. I came across something called ‘neuroplasticity’ and it was interesting reading (for me in any case).
If the brain has the ‘ability’ to change following an experience (including emotional trauma), how do people know that their life-long thinking ‘processes’ can be re-wired unless the individual is aware of what it is that they have experienced all their life – in this instance – an ACON will have always ‘thought’ in the same way.
If an ACON seeks assistance / help via therapy / doctors, there is some chance of the ACON being ‘diagnosed’ incorrectly (ie as a victim of narcissist abuse) because of the lack of awareness / understanding of narcissism in the first place (including among the medical profession).
Apparently, a brain can be ‘re-wired’ in 21 days. I laughed when I read this. Because it was not explained further that (need to add asterisks here!!) **it depends on the ‘experience’ the individual has gone through, the depth of the emotional trauma, the level of understanding the individual has, etc**. No wonder it takes some people years of therapy! 21 DAYS?! Very questionable.
In some cases it can work, not necessarily for everyone – me thinks. Because people’s personality traits cannot necessarily be changed, yet I now question this (I am laughing as I typed those words).
So, in my view, (especially in the above paragraph), HG’s suggestion of 6 months for the No Contact Regime to be effective actually makes more sense to me now – to allow the effectiveness of Emotional and Logical Thinking to ‘re-program’ and get into a more even ‘sync’. Having said that, I know from experience that emotional trauma can take much longer than that. Is it because of the difference between empaths & normals?
I am still a believer in HG’s work and his methods. They do work. Apologies to you, HG, if I have offended you in any way.
** Asp Emp going online shopping for some soldering irons to do more brain re-wiring – just to speed up the process, I’ll report back on how I get on 😉 **
Good grief, I’m at 7 months and still not rewired, I’m feeling exceptionally slow!!
AV, that made me laugh….. don’t worry about how long it takes you…. it certainly didn’t take me 21 days!
Took me a long time too AV and I was only embroiled with my N for a very short period of time. It’s not a race. Just take things in your own time.
Thank you Alexissmith, it’s not a race with anyone else but I’m pretty competitive with myself. And i like to hit things hard, learn until I’m satisfied and move on. It didn’t usually take this long. But, this is a huge topic and an entirely new way of viewing the world so i guess it’s going to take a little longer. I sense some sinking in happening, like absorption into me, it’s different than knowledge, i don’t know if that makes sense. Thank you for your encouragement.
AV, it took me a long time to get my head around some concepts. Some things I’d read several times over and I only semi-understood. But then all of a sudden it would click and I would be completely stunned in the moment, completely overwhelmed by something which had been staring me in the face for so long.
AS, that has been my experience here also say times, I am not used to that and I’m finding it frustrating. Another piece is that there are so many moving parts that just when one makes sense another pops up and then yet another that I thought I had but had forgotten about. I am in the process of writing some of it down, I typically learn best that way, when i can see it, put it into a grid, or a pattern, and make sense out if it. I had not been doing that because my time is so full already but if I’m going to get my money’s worth, so to speak, I need to make time for it. The problem is that it can absorb me to the neglect of other things, but once it’s done, the good news being that once it’s done it’s done. It will take some time, so much info, start with basics and build up. Thank you, I now have a game plan. 😃
Time takes time. Meanwhile, I’ve used cognitive behavioral therapy and sought out a life coach, even you don’t want a life coach, have a quick look. It was more of a “real world” guide than what my therapist had suggested.
Real World Guide – good title for a ” life coach”. I will consider, thank you.
Neuronal plasticity depends on the area of the brain and especially on age. My medication for example induces neuronal plasticity in the hippocampus, exactly where my brain has been damaged. Taking that med leads to the expression of BDNF (brain derived neurotrophic factor) which promotes neuronal plasticity in the hippocampus which is possible at any age. But this cannot be the case in every area of the brain. Another aspect is brain structure. You cannot grow a shank hippocampus, it stays small. The brain structures of ACONs is different (mine is for sure as I have a mental disorder). Some damage cannot be undone, on some wounds we can grow scars, other damages cannot be undone anymore.
LFS, thank you for your take on it. I agree on your last sentence.
You´re welcome 🤗 Let´s work on what is possible and live with the damages which can´t be undone. 🦾
Absolutely 🙂
Yes this. Though it is a bit discouraging to learn we can’t undo some damage. I wonder if it’s why I’m having so much trouble getting my mind around some of these concepts. Although, it could just be that it’s still relatively new and it follows a lifetime of seeing things from a whole different place. I’m going to keep working on it though, as you say.
AV, don’t be too hard on yourself, it took me 15 months to even recognize that my parents and my husband were toxic. Plus as ACONS we are so used to everything being distorted by the narcissist, its hard to see it clear. I still question all the time if I’m seeing it clearly.
Leigh, ok. I just want to get to where I’m seeing straight and get on with my life. It is frustrating sometimes, that’s all. But thank you, I will try to relax and let it sink in.
21 days to remember to put the toilet seat down.
21 weeks/months/years to process abuse.
BC30….. laughing at the first sentence….. 21 DAYS for that one?! Ah, no, it won’t even be 21 seconds!!!!
Same here AV.
Even knowing everything I’ve learned so far, I still find it hard to accept that there are people who think like this.
Thank you WiserNow, I was actually feeling bad for having written that. It was a gut reaction since I still see these behaviors at times from my mother. It can be hard to have compassion when it’s so fresh, even though i don’t see her much.
Anytime AV. You are rightly entitled to feel angry about reading that list. Reading that list makes me want to open a window and shout, “I’m as mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore! Narcissists are destroying the world!” lol 😂🤣
But then, that would only provide fuel and drama for my narcy neighbours and it would backfire. So, I’ll fume in silence and keep learning on narcsite 🙂
Seriously though, I understand both your anger and your guilt for being angry. Anger is a narcissistic trait. As an empathic person, it doesn’t feel ‘good’ or comfortable to be angry. Your anger is still a valid expression of justified frustration or irritation though.
Also, when the anger is directed to someone we are close to, like our parents or children etc, the anger makes you feel guilt because it contradicts the feelings that come more naturally, like compassion or care.
Both the anger and the compassion are valid expressions AV. The guilt and discomfort could be the dissonance or emotional unrest from having to reconcile the two different but valid feelings. For what it’s worth, it’s okay for you to feel both 🙂
QUESTION: Have you ever participated in a documentary?
No.
HG, hope you don’t mind me asking – have you been approached to do so?
Yes.
This happened to me left Friday before I got off work and didn’t see nor hear from him again till Sunday. I called and text no answer because I was concerned. Sunday I ask why you didn’t answer the phone, he didn’t give me a reason, acted like everything was all rosy. He did it again and again. I stop calling and asking. Whenever he did come home I acted like everything was all rosy, 😂 It started being funny to me😊😂