The 10 Obligations of the Empath


In order to manipulate you and control you, we rely on certain behaviours which cause you to act out of fear. Fear of injury, isolation, financial ruin, loss of your home or loss of your children. We also rely on your deeply embedded sense of obligation. Owing to your honesty and decency, you feel need to do certain things. Your sense of obligation is greater than normal and we exploit this in the following ways:

  1. You feel responsible for us

So much of what we do is of our own doing. In fact, next to nothing is caused by you when looked at through your worldview. From our perspective you are responsible for everything. It is always your fault and we repeatedly project and blame-shift in order to condition you to feel responsible for us. You already have a sense of responsibility towards us. You feel a sense of responsibly to nearly everybody because of the fact you are caring and compassionate. This increases when it comes to us because we are your intimate partner and you believe that it is the intimate partner who ranks amongst the highest who deserve such responsibility. This increases again when you realise that we have certain flaws and you feel a need to take on responsibility for them. Indeed, combine this natural state with the conditioning that we cause and you become someone who is over-responsible for us.

  1. You feel that you owe us

Once again this is a combination of the natural and the condition. You have been given such a wonderful time during the seduction period, given so much both material and emotional that you feel you do owe us. You are also a person who is polite and well-mannered and you feel a natural desire to return favours, thank people for what they do for you and a sense of paying the debt that has arisen. We also believe you owe us for everything we gave you during the seduction and accordingly you are obliged to repay us for the rest of the relationship and beyond. Combine these two elements and a powerful obligation of owing us is created which we are then able to exploit to our advantage.

  1. You feel sorry for us

That natural sympathy people possess is available in spades with someone as empathic as you. You never regard someone as weak or pathetic but rather feel sorry for them. You would not regard a homeless person as a stain on society but rather feel sorry that they find themselves in such a situation and you consider how they ended up where they are what might be done about it. You realise our behaviours are abhorrent but rather than always feel angry about it, you feel sorry for us that we behave this way. You feel sorry that we cannot explain ourselves, that we lash out and behave in such a destructive fashion. Your exuding sympathy not only fuels us but it creates an obligation on your part towards us.

  1. You feel guilty

Even if you know that a certain course of action is for the best, you are assailed by the guilt that you might be hurting someone, stopping them what they want to do or upsetting them in some way. Tough love is not a concept you want to embrace as the guilt at seeing someone else hurting, as a consequence of something that you have done, is too great. This sense of guilt forces you down different routes, often doing things which are not the best for you but nevertheless you feel obligated to do out of this considerable sense of guilt which looms large which someone empathic like you.

  1. You feel a need to fix us

You are a problem solver. You enjoyed the Sound of Music when you were younger and you always felt that if you had been given the chance you would have solved a problem like Maria. You regard it as your role to heal and to fix. You are of the unshakeable mind-set that everybody can be fixed. Everyone can be made better and when you experience the broken elements of our machinations and manipulations you do not shirk from them. Instead, you remain in situ and work out how you can resolve them. This obligation to make things better and to heal is a central part of who you are and is readily exploited by us since we know you are unlikely to go anywhere despite how bad things are.

  1. You feel it is your duty

You have a strong sense of duty. Duty to be an excellent parent, supportive friend, caring son or daughter, hard-working colleague and all round decent human being. Most of all you regard your duty to your intimate partner as one where no matter how difficult things might be you are not going to walk away. This duty is often compelled from the vows that you have taken and a strong religious undertone to your personality.

Duty is paramount and from that rises the obligation.

  1. You feel a need to abide by your standards

So often the world appears to have lost its moral compass and therefore it falls to a diminishing group of people to right the wrongs, stand up for the vulnerable and defend the weak. You often see that people are ruled by those twin gods of sex and money and this causes people to forget who they are and the standards they once adhered to. This is not for you. You do not do this to be lauded by others but do so because you cannot lie straight in your bed at night if you do not uphold these standards for yourself and in your daily dealings. This translates into treating people with patience, understanding, compassion and empathy, no matter how difficult it becomes. Some might suggest that you are making a rod for your own back.

  1. You feel a need to maintain appearances

This is not done for your own benefit. You are not like us creating an image to show the world. No, you do this to maintain appearances for the sake of others. It is keeping the family together for the sake of your children so they are not upset. It is appearing to get along with your difficult brother for the sake of your fragile elderly parents. It is taking one for the team in order to maintain an appearance so that you deal with the pain and aggravation so others do not. This need creates an obligation in you which we are content to exploit as we know it will keep you around and stop you from speaking out about what we do.

  1. You feel a need to never give up.

You are not a quitter. You do not give up at the first bump in the road or black cloud. You keep going, you are tenacious. You are indefatigable and you persevere. You plough forwards and feel that it is only right to do this because you know that the just reward will come at the end of it. Anything worth doing is worth doing properly. Anything worth having takes effort. We applaud this desire to stick at things.

  1. You feel a need to have done your best

When everything is added up and evaluated, at the end of the day, you want that satisfaction, just for yourself, to know that you did your best and you could have done no more. You always consider whether you could have done something a different way and more effectively. You are self-critical and behave like this in order to fulfil your chosen role as a good person. This obliges you to try and try again.

These empathic obligations result in your remaining with us longer, enduring more of our abusive behaviours and forgiving more of what we do than an ordinary person. We know these obligations exist and we exploit them.

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169 thoughts on “The 10 Obligations of the Empath

  1. Fiddleress says:

    Hello WiserNow
    I read your post below about women almost being able to walk down the street naked (well, tell me where you live and I’ll move there! Not to walk down the street naked, but for the fact you seem to imply a woman wouldn’t get mugged if she did that, where you live – obviously not in my country).

    You wrote: “both of those ‘extremes’ are not healthy *IF* there is a lack of cognitive understanding and self-restraint.” and something (a possible answer?) sprang to mind when I read it; Albert Camus (one of my favourite authors in my language) once said: “Un homme, ça s’empêche”, which means “A man is one that prevents himself”. Even in French the sentence sounds unfinished, but the context was for it to mean that a real man is one that forbids/prevents himself from mugging/raping/smearing/commenting and considering a woman as an object and a sexual object, among other forms of violence. So why not teach this to children at school from an early age and repeatedly for years on end, alongside Rudyard Kipling’s IF ?
    As I heard before I had children, and I put it into practice with good result: the only antidote to machismo is a feminist upbringing (feminist, but not ball-breaking 😉 ).

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Fiddleress, I agree with you 100%.

    2. MP says:

      In San Francisco, California, my third cousin from my dad’s side who is gay and very liberal was so disgusted and grossed out when he saw a completely naked woman having coffee at a coffee shop. He said he hope that they sanitize the chair and table that she used. That was many years ago before the pandemic.

      Personally for me I don’t appreciate my kids being exposed to nudists.

      Also, I used to think that men would rape if given the opportunity because that’s what my mom told me but I learned from some men that I got to know well that there are men who do not even have that desire to rape and it doesn’t turn them on if the woman is not enjoying the encounter. If a man rapes, that is not the norm, it means there is something wrong with his moral character.

      1. Fiddleress says:

        Hello MP,
        Was that man grossed out by the sight of a naked woman because he was gay? I ask because I know some (emphasized) gay men who are or claim that they are, and also you pointed out he was gay and that it was a woman he had seen. Would he have felt differently had it been a man, I wonder.
        Also, the way he thought that that woman’s body *must* have been dirty in some way sounds very much like disgust of female bodies in general.

        I am not a nudist myself, but I wouldn’t be grossed out by the sight of nudists of either sex – well, I am French after all, haha!

        As for kids and nudity, yes I get your point; it’s just a shame that many people are more bothered by this than exposing kids to violence (for instance on TV, social media, video games, porn).

      2. MP says:

        Rereading my comment, It might look like my description of my cousin was derogatory, I just want to clarify that it was not. I just wanted to state his identity to indirectly make a point that even though he is a gay liberal, he seems to have an issue with public nudity. His reaction was pretty funny at that time, I just couldn’t figure out how to transfer the humor of the situation to my comment. He’s a pretty funny guy and he posted it on FB in a really funny way.

      3. WiserNow says:

        Wow . . . a completely naked woman having coffee in a coffee shop . . .

        That takes a seriously thick skin (haha) and fortitude – either that or it’s due to some kind of ‘insanity’. That must be a very liberal society to permit that. I don’t believe it should be allowed in general in any public place, especially around children.

        I’ve never seen a completely naked person freely walking around in public. If that happened in my country, it would be considered a legal offence of “indecent exposure”. It would typically result in a fine and/or a maximum jail term of six months if the exposure was proved to be intentional and done in an obscene way.

        1. MP says:

          Haha I know. San Francisco has a lot of nudists. But I googled it and it looks like they just banned nude people from restaurants around 2011. That seems about right because I believe I was not married yet when I saw my cousin’s post and it shocked me too. They have some nude parades in San Francisco and I believe they still allow people to walk nude in public.

          1. Joa says:

            I don’t know about other countries. Here, nudists used to have their own zones. To this day, these zones function socially.

            I would also not like to sit on a chair after someone naked, regardless of whether it is a woman, a man or a child 😊

          2. MP says:

            Haha I agree. I believe most places are like that but San Francisco in California is unique, even more unique than the rest of California. There is a big hippie culture there. But I have read that they started putting restrictions around 2012. People would now need to get a permit to be able to have a nude parade. But women are still allowed to be topless anywhere without a permit.

          3. WiserNow says:


            That sounds a bit like ‘social distancing’ to allow nudists to have their own zones. How did the zones get separated from each other?

            I imagine being a nudist would present a whole host of practical problems . . .

            Such as . . . where do you put your car-keys/wallet/mobile phone? Do nudists wear jewellery and makeup? . . or a scarf if there’s a chill in the air? What if something you need to buy is in the “other zone”? Would you need to carry a change of clothes with you? 😂 🤣

            It’s funny when you think of it in more practical terms.

          4. Joa says:

            WS, I just saw your question.

            In my country, nudists have designated beaches and coastal towns, as well as lakesides beaches. They are only fenced off with information boards. Anyone can go in there… naked.

            When it comes to seaside towns, they have been very famous in our country for over 60 years and there is no possibility of making a mistake 🙂

            Worse with lakes, beaches are usually informally occupied by nudists. There is a lake next to my house and one of the “wild beaches” has been a nudist hangout for at least 40 years.

            But when I was 15, I didn’t know it yet. I remember, that my friend and I decided to swim across the lake, to shorten the many-kilometer route around the lake. The lake is an old, artificial reservoir after flooding a huge gravel pit. When we almost reached the other shore, which was very overgrown with reeds and water lilies and full of seaweed, suddenly a man, completely naked, emerged from behind the trees. We both panicked and we got tangled up in the seaweed. Damn, we almost drowned there with our clothes and sandals packed in backpacks (we only swam in our underwear) and money hidden in plastic bottles 🙂 Fortunately, when we regained our composure, we quickly turned back and swam to the starting point.

            We never swimmed in the lake towards that beach again, we preferred go a long way and swim diagonally, to go out on the next beach 🙂

        2. MP says:

          Hello WN, I used to work with a guy who made jokes like that and we didn’t take him seriously because it was part of his act. He would show us that he was looking at a random woman’s breasts or butt etc. and comment how she’s so attractive or he would make faces. We even had a narc female coworker and he would walk behind her and comment or compliment her about how her underwear mark on her jeans look so attractive and she would give him a narcy smile like “I know I am attractive.” He never did that to me though because he knew it would creep me out and he might get in trouble. He only said I’m cute or the color of my clothes make me glow and he said it in a very wholesome way almost like referring to a cute puppy. 😁

          1. WiserNow says:

            Hi MP,

            That kind of joking around at work would stop being funny after a while and would just become annoying or creepy. A joke here or there if said in a flirtatious or silly way wouldn’t be that annoying, but if it’s a habit and it’s done to all the women consistently, it’s not funny or flirtatious.

            I used to work with someone a bit like that who would get too ‘touchy-feely’ with the women he worked with. He would say hello in a friendly, enthusiastic way and then rub your arm or back as though it was a ‘friendly’ gesture. Or he would sneak up from behind and hug you, grabbing you around the waist. It was all ‘supposed’ to be fun and friendly, however, it was annoying and overbearing.

            When you work on a daily basis with someone like that, it’s not that easy to tell them openly or loudly to “p*** off” or to leave you alone. If you ‘make a scene’, it could have unwanted repercussions down the track.

            In any case, that kind of thing is not professional or respectful in a workplace.

          2. Joa says:

            Oh, WN, I hate it when someone touches me like that! I don’t even accept a “caring”, “fatherly” touch on the back or waist while letting me through the door.

            And the old-fashioned hand-kissing is a nightmare! Especially if the man grabs and pulls my hand too hard or has a mustache! Yuck.
            (Error! Error! System failure! Wash your hands! Wash your hands!).

            Me and my sister are terribly “untouchable” 🙂

            Touch is reserved only for the man of my choice. The only one in a given period of my life. No one more. “All rights reserved” – as N1 used to say 🙂


            Even my own child communicated the need for its own space from an early age.

            These days, if I want to hug her or I want a hug, I ask if I can. I don’t always get this “honour” from my own child 🙂

          3. Joa says:

            Oh, I hate it when someone touches me like that! I don’t even accept a “caring”, “fatherly” touch on the back or waist while letting me through the door.

            And the old-fashioned hand-kissing is a nightmare! Especially if the man grabs and pulls my hand too hard or has a mustache! Yuck.
            (Error! Error! System failure! Wash your hands! Wash your hands!).

            Me and my sister are terribly “untouchable” 🙂

            Touch is reserved only for the man of my choice. The only one in a given period of my life. No one more. “All rights reserved” – as N1 used to say 🙂


            Even my own child communicated the need for its own space from an early age.

            These days, if I want to hug her or I want a hug, I ask if I can. I don’t always get this “honour” from my own child 🙂

          4. Leigh says:

            Joa says, “Touch is reserved only for the man of my choice.”

            I agree 100%. I don’t want anyone to touch me. I often even struggle with giving my adult children hugs.

    3. WiserNow says:


      Here’s a true story that actually happened to me. It’s all factual. I’m not exaggerating or embellishing.

      Some years ago, at a local popular beach on a warm and sunny day, I was walking along a wide walkway (or promenade etc) with my partner at the time. This particular beach is popular with all sorts of people – families with children, people on boogie boards (like a half surfboard you muck about with in the water), people sunbaking, middle-aged people, elderly people, tourists, people walking dogs, people jogging or rollerblading – you name it.

      In amongst all those people, there are also topless women here and there lying on towels and sunbathing. They wear bikini bottoms. I’ve never seen anyone completely naked. No-one stares at them or openly insults them or says anything or even avoids them. They are relaxed and openly lying there and everyone else is doing their own thing.

      Anyway, on this particular day, my partner at the time and I were walking along wearing normal summer clothes and enjoying the sunny day before stopping to get a coffee and ice-cream at a nearby cafe. My partner said to me that he enjoys walking there wearing mirror-lens sunglasses and ogling inconspicuously at the topless women. He wasn’t saying it like he wanted to rape them or in a desperate kind of way. I rolled my eyes, laughed and teased him for being a pervert (.)(.)😎👀🙄

      What was I supposed to say? “Oh no, you can’t do that! You need to wear blinkered sunglasses and stare up at the sky at all times.”

      Should I have run onto the sand towards the topless women, demanding that they cover their breasts because they were making men horny and women jealous?! 👀👅😒😡

      Meanwhile… there have also been a number of crimes in my country where women have been raped and killed while walking home alone in the dark. These women were fully clothed in normal or fashionable clothes and minding their own business, just going home after work or some other reason.

      Due to such horrific crimes, I now never walk alone in the dark anywhere. If I am alone in a private public place, I feel potentially unsafe and vigilant, even in broad daylight.

      So… it all depends.

      1. WiserNow says:

        **…to clarify, what I meant by ‘a private public place’ was a secluded or empty public place. For example, a public park or country area that’s secluded with few people, empty public toilets in a shopping centre, city alleyways etc.

        It doesn’t matter what a victim/target is wearing or what time of day it is. It’s the opportunity that presents itself to a perpetrator who thinks they’ll get away with it.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Horrendous remark. Hypersexualization and objectification of women regardless of whether he was gonna rape them or not would turn me immediately OFF. Of course not, you shouldn’t have run to tell other women to cover their tits, you should have told that ass that you also enjoy seeing the enlarged penis of other men under their swimming trunks but as a woman with class you do not comment on it in front of your partner. I recommend the Netflix film Je Ne Suis Pas Un Homme Facile (I’m not an Easy Man). It lets you see how ridiculous all the standards about women are from a reversed perspective, including internalized oppression reactions in women, of the kind “what can they do, they are just men” “you know, we women make terrible bosses” “I prefer to work for men” “women hate other women…” “homicides are homicides, killing women is just another form of murder.” FUCK that shit. You can tell I’m a very strong believer in women’s rights. I understand your fear, WiserNow. I did a survey in class about things males could do that women were scared of doing and the number one answer was “walking alone in the dark.” Even when you walk with a girlfriend, if you are assaulted, they tell you “you ladies were walking alone at night.” One thing is being against exhibitionism (I don’t want to sit on the same bench where someone, male or female, has been rubbing their naked genitalia, and the other is adopting the oh poor thing what was he supposed to do with all these sexy women around. Lesbians / bisexuals don’t rape sexy women just because they had few clothes on.

        2. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Also, in many countries the perpetrators know they will get away with it like you very well remarked simply because the cases are not taken seriously and the laws are not strengthened. This is my personal battle. I am sorry to interrupt but I am really really immersed in this fight.

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Clarification: the “horrendous remark”’referred to the comment on top less women by your boyfriend at that time, WiserNow. Sorry about any possible confusion!

          2. WiserNow says:

            Hi Sweetest Perfection,

            Thank you for all three messages. Your anger because of sexist and stereotypical attitudes is justified and I agree with you. I understood what you meant by “horrendous remark” too.

            If I took that particular remark out of context and considered it in an intellectual way, I would also be annoyed at the sexualization and objectification of women. It would frustrate me that men in this day and age *still* view women that way.

            It irritates me that women – who make up 50% of the population – can’t choose to walk home freely in the dark, and can’t ‘choose’ a lot of things freely.

            Some years ago, I would travel home after work on Friday and Saturday evenings using public transport. I would have to change seats during a journey because there was nearly always a man who had had a few too many who would decide to sit right next to me even though the carriage was near-empty. It drove me nuts. It turned a ‘normal’ journey home into a stressful panic, wondering if I’d be followed or not. They were most likely harmless, however, that’s not a chance you want to take.

            The thing is though, that in all honesty, I don’t think things really change that much over time. I think that men – in general – can’t ‘relate’ fully to women and vice versa. That’s an honest opinion. It’s not a case of saying, “poor guys, they can’t help themselves” either. From experience, having worked for years in male-dominated organisations, it’s something that you can fight against, however, it’s very difficult to make any meaningful change. You end up frustrated and angry and a lot of energy goes into fighting something that won’t change.

            In the case of the ‘remark’, when I consider it as a passing comment in a particular context, I can see it’s the reaction of a heterosexual male when seeing an attractive female. There is an instinctive reaction that’s inevitable. Then, there is a cognitive reaction that either does or doesn’t override the initial instinctive reaction according to what else is happening.

            When it comes to the legal system and law enforcement, I think it’s great that you are immersed in strengthening the laws. I would say that the ‘system’ from police right through to judges, is systematically ‘male-dominated’ and resistant to change. The more that people speak out and demand changes, the faster it will happen.

            I remember having a conversation with a friend about the news of a shocking murder of a woman who was walking home. I was saying how terrible and unacceptable it is that women can’t walk where they want to and need to be vigilant at all times. I said that it’s a basic human right to walk freely where you want to and that these basic rights should be attainable.

            My friend was equally sure of her opinion. She said that the reality is that it’s dangerous to walk freely just because you believe you have a ‘right’ to do so. She said that the danger is there and it will always be there, so it is ‘common sense’ that you need to be vigilant. After that conversation, I thought that vigilance is always necessary, however, women continually need to speak up about what is unacceptable.

      2. MP says:

        Hello WN, I personally think it’s weird that your partner said that. But I don’t really know a lot of men. It’s just not something that I can personally tolerate from a romantic partner I guess. If he was just a co worker or a friend or a cousin I will just jokingly say “eww grow up.” But from a partner it would be a personal red flag and I would consider leaving.

        1. WiserNow says:

          Hello MP,

          The man who said it was generally sociable and had an easy or lighthearted manner in social situations. He could be quite funny and liked to banter. He wasn’t an openly insulting or crude kind of person.

          At the time when he said that, I didn’t take it very seriously or find it insulting. I wasn’t exactly happy about him saying it because I thought it was insensitive towards me. However, I just took it as a ‘male’ kind of joke that was a little inconsiderate but not said in a cutting or demeaning way. There were many people on the beach wearing swim suits, bikinis or swimming trunks, so in that ‘environment’, it felt ‘understandable’ that there would be an element of “people-watching”.

          That was before I was aware about narcissism. Now, I would see it as a red flag, especially when taken in totality with other things said and done. Back then, I didn’t see it that way and took it more or less as a joke in passing.

          1. MP says:

            Also just to add, it is a red flag not only because of triangulation but also because of the lack of boundary towards the other women. But it can be a cultural thing. In my home country, behavior like that is more common because of the macho culture. Even the empathic men try to fake it and sometimes would make sexist jokes because they are afraid of being seen as weak or soft. But living here in the US, observing from my husband and brother and even other men that I don’t know well, they don’t make jokes like that. Also my husband and I have come across women at the beach wearing extremely provocative swimsuits and sometimes my husband’s eyes automatically get drawn to it but he also quickly looks away and just walks on and doesn’t even think about it. I think I admire that here in the West.

          2. WiserNow says:

            Your points are valid MP.

            The culture of a society ‘in general’ and what the cultural ‘norm’ is considered to be will make a huge difference in relation to what is considered ‘acceptable’ or ‘unacceptable’. I admire the generally more ‘open-minded’ cultural attitudes in the West too.

            Then, there’s also each person’s ‘individual’ reaction. As you describe, your husband would look away and just walk on. Different individuals will have different instinctive attitudes or behaviours. Back then, I was willing to overlook something like that because I considered the person’s positive traits or thought that a level of tolerance was needed. Now I have a more discerning way of seeing things and my tolerance level is based on more defined values.

            The boundary aspect is interesting. I can see that it *can* work both ways. A man who stares or behaves like a pervert is crossing a boundary. I think it’s fair to say that anyone (men or women) who behave in a way that is ‘provocative’ or ‘exhibitionistic’ or overtly ‘sexual’ may also be crossing a boundary in some shape or form to ‘someone’. It’s all subjective, so it depends on perception . . . which HG keeps reminding us of 🙂

            The relationship with that man didn’t last. There were other things that happened that were irritating or insensitive. Plus, now it’s clear to me that the narcissistic dynamic was definitely there. Even without knowledge about narcissism, there were things I wasn’t prepared to accept.

          3. MP says:

            WN, So true about boundaries also being crossed by people behaving in exhibitionist ways. Especially when there are kids around.

          4. Joa says:

            N2 also enjoys watching women on the beach through sunglasses.

            I, too, have heard such “joking” remarks several times.

            Generally, he likes to be in places, where the crowd has a life of its own, it relaxes him. Coming noises. Blending in with the crowd. It may even be a street. When someone catches his eye, he focuses on her, mostly women.

          5. WiserNow says:

            Since you know these things and you have heard your N2 joking about them, does that mean you were with him in these public places? Or did he tell you at a later time about his feelings?

            From what you say, it suggests to me that he triangulates you with other people he sees in these places. If he felt that way in public and it made no difference to him whether you knew or not, he probably wouldn’t need to say anything to you. It sounds like he tells you other people catch his eye to see your reaction and to make you feel less important or annoyed or deflated. He is manipulating your emotions.

            The people he focuses on sound like strangers that happen to be in the same place. To a ‘normal’ person, a stranger in public is quickly forgotten.

            I remember that the man I wrote about seemed to care a lot about what other people – that is, strangers – thought of him. He wanted to be seen as ‘cool’ and ‘street smart’ and ‘edgy’. If I was with him at a party or in a bar for example, he would be animated and flirty with others, while sometimes simultaneously criticising my choice of drink or sniggering and shaking his head at the way I said or did something. He made it seem I wasn’t ‘cool’ enough, whatever ‘cool’ or ‘edgy’ are supposed to be.

            Now in hindsight, I ask myself why he was with me in the first place if he considered the strangers around him as better company. I actually have a very good idea why. If it happened now, I would say, “that’s okay, if you’d rather be with them, goodbye and have a nice life.” I did eventually walk away anyway, but it took me longer than it would now.

          6. Joa says:

            WN, and this and that.

            N1 and N2 triangulated me in this way, when we were on the beach or at a party. They playfully, gently smacked my confidence, I never felt “threatened”. I always felt like I was number 1 in their lives – when we were together.

            N2 liked to sit in a good “observation point” somewhere at the top of the street or on a hill and call or text me. He was always very relaxed then (sometimes sudden silence, stirring my imagination and envy). I think, he watched people the way you watch an anthill in your garden. It gave him a sense of power and peace.


            A brawler with a heart of a child. A child with a heart of stone.

      3. Contagious says:

        I once went on a cruise where this French youth kept videotaping me and my daughter. We were showering after a swim. My husband and son greeted him. The end. Deleted. Joa, I am different in my hat I don’t mind a kiss on the hand or hug or kiss on two cheeks if respectful. In fact I love it that some cultures are so open with affection. I feel sad that the internet has isolated us. People have relations without the human touch. Human touch is important to me. Since Covid even hand shaking has gone by. I love to hug and to be hugged in greeting. It is sad that there is actually a group in the USA you can join to cuddle as some people are so alone and longing for human touch. I get that not everyone loves it. My husband is English and left his employment and was hugged by his Spanish male colleague and kissed! He was taken aback but not upset. He has a bad back. I said I am happy you made a difference in someone’s life and a friend who cared. He smiled;)

  2. MP says:

    I forgot to add, I do feel contempt too but that would be before indifference. I think pity might be a useful go to for me in the future since compassion is not always practical.

  3. frausiacor says:

    Hi! Wonderful post. I’m marking this so that I can re-blog it someday—may I? Wishing you blessings!

  4. Fiddleress says:

    Hello HG. I have just come across a statement that got me thinking and wanting to ask you something, please (a shame I saw it only after yesterday’s Q&A, which was brilliant as usual). It is by Balzac, not my favourite writer, but there it is – as an echo to N°3 in the article above: “You feel sorry for us”:

    “Good souls find it difficult to believe in evil, in ingratitude. They have to be taught tough lessons before they recognise the extent of human corruption.Then when their education therein is complete, they rise to a form of leniency which is the ultimate degree of contempt.”

    Would you say that leniency is really a form of contempt? It does strip away the responsibility of the narcissist (for instance): “they can’t help it, that’s the way they are wired”, leading to a form of pity; I admit that I have felt that towards the mid-rangers in my life. And I have always said I loathe pity because it is so full of (unconscious, maybe) contempt. I wouldn’t want anyone to pity me.
    That really hit me; if leniency towards narcissists (like towards others, especially if it is constant) is a form of contempt, then maybe empaths could become aware of it and would probably feel very uneasy with the element of contempt inherent in finding excuses. Which means those who do feel that, would stop finding excuses of any form, and it might help in keeping a solid no contact in place.
    Thank you (HG, and fellow readers) in advance for all and any thoughts on this.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Interesting observation, I would regard it more as pity, possibly indifference rather than contempt.

      1. Fiddleress says:

        Thank you for your response HG.

      2. Joa says:

        Fiddleress, sometimes I feel pity mixed with great contempt. Another time, pity mixed with tenderness. Yet another time, understanding intertwined with pity and admiration at the same time.

        Overall, a very mixed feelings.

        Not HG, I never feel indifferent. Especially with Narcissus. Even if I haven’t seen this person in 30 years. I somehow feel anyone, who has approached me, for a short or long distance. There is no chance of indifference.

        PS As a teenager, I read about 50 Balzac stories and novels. He was a very prolific writer. I was absorbing this exaggerated drama, as if I was possessed 🙂 For about 20 years, I consider him a very harmful author – especially for the Empata’s receptive mind.

        However, the sentence you quoted, Fiddleress, caught my attention again for a longer time. Thank you.

    2. A Victor says:

      Hi Fiddleress, I think you’re saying similar to what I said to myself as I raised my children, I could choose to overlook this but that would not be the most loving thing to do, only the easiest. To ignore issues or make excuses would’ve been harmful to my children in the long run. The difference here would be that using this idea of contempt of excuses/pity for the narc, much as I agree with it, to benefit myself would quite possibly not be a strong enough motivator in the way my children’s wellbeing was. Still worth investigating though.

      If the contempt, pity or indifference was aimed at my honesty and “strives for the truth” traits, yes, then it could work, or least help, in the endeavor to stay in NC.

      Thank you for this comment, I am going to give it some more thought as I can see the sense but also have to sort it out and clarify it in my mind.

      1. Fiddleress says:

        Hello AV
        Thank you for your thoughts, which made me think further.

        Re-reading my post, I find that it was not extremely clear.
        I agree with you about (young) children: there has to be a degree of leniency, they are still learning, and in that case there is no contempt involved (though I must say I was not very lenient with my kids).
        But I started thinking that where an adult is concerned, finding excuses (and pitying them) for their repeated horrible behaviours might be contemptuous, because then you see them as kids really, who haven’t learnt how to live with others. (The image of patronisingly patting someone on the head comes to mind).

        I felt uncomfortable when I read the quote I copied from Balzac. And I thought, if it is the case that there is an element of contempt in leniency/finding excuses (for other adults), then empaths would probably feel very uncomfortable with that. And may reconsider their tendency to find excuses for too long.

        Unless serious mental health issues are involved, I feel more and more inclined to hold people responsible for their actions and words (I mean repeated patterns of course).

        1. vandenboss says:

          Lets say you’d helped someone out,who was a little down and out, and for thanks you find yourself in a little smear campaign were things get turned around. I think one of your initial feelings is one of contempt. And indeed as an empath you don’t like the feeling of contempt(omg i’m turning into a narc) and you start thinking about a way out. The logical thing to do next is trying to feel pity saying to yourself ‘they cant help it,they’re stuck,they’ve been made this way’ And so start petting the subject on the head in a patronizing way while thinking ‘i know you cant help it you little mental f*ck’.

          1. A Victor says:

            Vandenboss, exactly, I don’t like the feeling of contempt nor of potential conflict. That definitely causes me to behave in a manner that I might not in a situation where those feelings would be overrun. Thank you, that is helpful, I need to get a comfort level with those feelings, and others similar. Also the pity one, that brings a level of disgust but I still want to “help” if I can, up to a point. My point is pretty early most of the time, thankfully. Instead I could train myself to use the “pity” on ‘i know you cant help it you little mental f*ck’, and GoSo! Thank you for your comment, very helpful.

          2. Fiddleress says:

            That’s interesting, vanderboss, thank you for this. You wrote: “‘And so start petting the subject on the head in a patronizing way while thinking ‘i know you cant help it you little mental f*ck’.” – exactly. And that is where I see an element of contempt.

            I think my initial response in the case you describe would be bewilderment, confusion, shame at being used/conned, and anger (in this order) – not contempt. Certainly not wanting to have anything to do with that person again.
            I am trying to imagine my feelings as I am writing: next would be disgust, and ultimately indifference.
            If, after that, I was told “they were made this way, they can’t help it”, I get the feeling that I would still think their responsibility was involved (whereas at times in the past I have felt sorry, therefore pity, for my N mother for instance). And I would decide to be very careful indeed who I helped out in the future.
            But then I’ve learnt my lesson, I think.

            What helped me finally go total no contact with my parents twelve years ago was that even if I knew then that my mother was a narcissist (I didn’t know about my father at the time), I still held her responsible for her actions and behaviour. She was supposed to be a parent, for f**k’s sake. Feeling sorry for her held me back before I went NC, and I almost broke NC over the next few years because I felt sorry for her. Hence my initial post.
            (I did break NC when I heard she was dying, 2 weeks before she died back in February: my brother, who was in NC too, had been told she wanted to see him about some papers; he hesitated and I offered to go with him, out of pity for her and thinking I was a monster to let her die like that. So we went, and were faced with the same snake-like gaze and Kaa-like way of speaking to us. The hateful notes to us that she had purposely left around her house, which we found after her death, comforted me in the assurance that I, and my brother, had been right to go total NC, and that any pity/feeling sorry was very much unwarranted.)

          3. Joa says:

            I think this feeling of contempt may be the closest to indifference.

            Unfortunately, I am not able to experience it with N2, contempt always turns into understanding, tenderness and… forgiveness. Because when I start to despise him, he disappears, and I, having no “Narc-food”, begin to erase what I despise. I can’t go any further with this.


            No, I have no remorse whatsoever, that I feeling contempt. I feel it for people, who deserve it. I’m too good for them anyway. Fucking good.

        2. A Victor says:

          Hi Fiddleress, I thought I had responded to this, hopefully this is not a duplicate comment. It will likely be different anyway since I don’t remember all I thought I wrote in the previous one. Anyway, I was also not lenient with my children, for their best interest, I wasn’t clear in my last comment about that, I apologize. But it made me think, for them, my lack of leniency was intentional and done out of love. With adults, the situation is different, I am not their parent so an open discussion is what would be acceptable, not me having to choose lack of leniency toward them. In that regard, when they are too dull to handle the truth, my tendency is to walk away, who has time for that? And that is not a loving thing to do, that is selfish on my part. The exceptions are those who strike my addiction, I have a very difficult time walking away from my mother now, and my romantic partners in the past. I am in ANC as much as possible with TTU (mom) but not complete NC as it should be. My question is how to get that same response that I have with others to click over when it comes to narcissists, how to walk away without guilt, how to not allow addiction to control me. I suppose that is what we’re here for and your suggestion that we view it as a heavy burden almost to be detested might help with that process. I think you have hit on something. I am most concerned, I feel that even now, there are times when that addiction is just right there, ready to pounce. But those narcissists need to just stop it, they are so difficult, I can come to hate what they put on us, the responsibility for them that they put on us. I do hate that already. Anyway, this is ramble-y, I don’t expect a response but I do appreciate a place to work this out a bit. Thank you.

          1. Fiddleress says:

            Hi AV
            You wrote: “my lack of leniency was intentional and done out of love. ” about your children; it is indeed what I understood that you meant, and it was the same for me: I wanted them to accept to be accountable and accept their responsibility in what they did, right or wrong. Not to punish them if they did wrong, but I didn’t want to hear “I didn’t do it” when they had !

            You also wrote: “But those narcissists need to just stop it, they are so difficult,” I’m afraid that’s not going to happen.
            As HG says, it is also our physical health that can be affected by being around narcissists for too long (I developped an auto-immune disease 15 years ago, which research links to exposure to extreme stress for a long period of time – I am not surprised). Would looking after your health be enough of an incentive for you to go TNC? I can tell you that being in a relationship with an N has literally become unbearable to me – I can feel my body adversely reacting when I am in their presence for more than a few hours, when I cannot avoid it for instance at work.
            Glad it helps for you to write your thoughts out xx

          2. A Victor says:

            Oh good, I’m glad you understood. And our thinking regarding discipline was quite similar.

            I think my”stop it” comment came after listening to an assistance package where HG keeps telling us to “Stop it!”. No, I am aware they will not. I do think about my health. It is part of my ongoing decision making process. Thank you for your concern, it means a lot to me. 🙂

    3. WiserNow says:

      Hi Fidleress,

      That’s a thought-provoking question. After thinking about the meaning behind the words pity, leniency and contempt, in my view, there are variations and nuances in what they represent and how those ‘feelings’ or emotions arise, if they actually arise at all.

      Firstly, take ‘pity’. As an empath, my first thought was that there’s a big difference between ‘pity’ and compassion or empathy. They are definitely not the same. Pity is a feeling of being ‘better than’ or superior to the one being pitied. Even if there’s no feeling of ‘superiority’, there is a feeling a bit like, “well, I’m glad that my situation is better than their situation, the poor so and so’…etc.

      Compassion or empathy doesn’t have that feeling of being ‘better than’ or superior. It is more like an equal ’embodiment’ of the other person’s situation. There is no ranking or judgement.

      Leniency is an interesting concept when it comes to narcissism. Perhaps Balzac wasn’t aware of the persistent and resistant nature of ‘evil’ … 😉

      When in a relationship with a narcissist, an empath attempts many ways and means, attitudes and behaviours to ‘change’ or ‘fix’ the narcissist. They do this to preserve or improve the relationship. There are times when being actively ‘lenient’ seems to be the only way, because nothing else works. To live with the narcissist’s control or malevolence etc, being ‘lenient’ may seem like a kind of ‘giving up’, however, it could also be seen as an active strategy too.

      In cases where people aren’t in a relationship with a narcissist, they may be ‘lenient’ to avoid adverse consequences. They may be indifferent, and therefore lenient, because they are too busy or consumed with their own problems or just living their own lives and minding their own business. They may even know about the other person’s narcissistic traits and think that there’s nothing they can actively do to change the other person, so they don’t step in. They may think that not being lenient will just open a can of worms or risk a conflict. If another person is being violent or dangerous or doing something that’s illegal, people generally don’t want to step in and it becomes a matter for the police.

      When it comes to narcissists, no contact is the best way to deal with them. That is the strategy that works to stay safe. Some people may see that as ‘lenient’ towards the narcissist, however, it’s not. I don’t think it shows pity or contempt either. If there was a way to remain in contact and still stay safe, I think people would generally prefer that to no contact.

      The paradox is that ‘not’ being lenient but continuing to try and ‘fix’ the narcissist (or evil person) actually gives them fuel, which increases their willingness to keep being evil. So, in a way, being ‘lenient’ (or indifferent) is actually more likely to drive down the ‘evil’.

      So, it depends on the situation or context. There are different ways to see or contemplate things, so using particular words like lenient to define behaviours is – in my opinion – quite limiting.

      Contempt is an interesting concept too. It implies things like disgust, scorn and denigration, or a judgement of worthlessness. As an empath, I did feel these things at certain times about narcissists, however, it was when I was unaware. The feeling of contempt came about due to frustration, anger, confusion and the tension or drama they created. Also, the feelings of contempt were sporadic and shortlived. I also saw the narcissist’s positive traits and, overall, there was a willingness to overlook or ‘forgive’ the negative.

      In Balzac’s quote, his take on ‘contempt’ is a cold ongoing emotion that’s more like indifference. In my own experience, contempt was more of a heated emotion caused by the erosion of empathy and it wasn’t ongoing.

      With knowledge about narcissism, I no longer feel anger, confusion or contempt because I now realise what causes the behaviours. Now I feel more of a sadness or hopelessness because it’s a condition that’s very resistant to change while being harmful.

      The more I think about Balzac’s quote, I tend to think that it represents the attitude of someone who is not fully aware of what ‘evil’ actually is, that is, a psychological human condition that is very resistant to change.

      1. WiserNow says:

        PS. Fidleress,

        I now see how long my reply is. I didn’t initially intend for it to be that long. I hope it didn’t go on and on and on. I need to focus on and practice using less words and being more succinct 🙂

        1. WiserNow says:

          **Fiddleress** . . . sorry for the misspelling

      2. MP says:

        Interesting discussion. Pity is something that has made me feel uneasy because of the inherent superiority. But I noticed with my Normal husband it is a manifestation of boundary meaning as a fellow human he can feel bad that my half sister was living a life with no legacy and direction (his words) but it stops there. He had no more compassion to change or fix anything. Compassion is something that he feels towards people that he feels were more victims of circumstances. For me because of my inherent uneasiness with pity, it’s either I am completely indifferent or not. With my stepdaughters for example, I feel completely indifferent. I don’t feel pity for them because I rarely even think of them and I don’t even wonder how their life is. I am just grateful that I a made the decision to go NC (credit to KTN, my husband’s cooperation and my own efforts). I’m so happy my kids don’t experience being glared at by their adult half sisters anymore and my kids are turning out happy and very social.

        With regard to Balzac’s, my interpretation is I see it as having two sides. From the side of the good soul, leniency is acceptance of what cannot be changed and therefore just letting it go and leading to indifference. From the side of the evil person the leniency is a form of indifference which he receives and feels as the ultimate degree of contempt. Even though in the perspective of the other side there was really no contempt.

        1. WiserNow says:


          Your thoughts are very much related to the people in your life and your direct feelings about them. I see now that I was ruminating about the words and my own definitions of them, rather than considering my direct emotions about people in my life.

          That’s interesting. When trying to define my emotions about people in my life, I find it difficult to base my thoughts on one general emotion, like what you have described about being completely indifferent or not. I tend to sway between feeling either positive or negative, compassionate or frustrated, sad or angry, etc. It can vary from day to day. There are times when I can be very decisive, but most of the time, I find I ruminate constantly.

          I can imagine that having small children, you need to be decisive to protect them and do what is best for them. So, your instincts/thoughts may be more concrete, based on what is best for your children, and then that would possibly make it easier to be decisive and/or indifferent.

          There are so many ways to interpret this quote from Balzac.

          1. MP says:

            I think you’re correct because I didn’t have a defined emotion regarding my N mom. With my half sister I cannot say that I was completely indifferent but during NC I was not thinking of her although when I heard that she had cancer the compassion came back.

            There’s a dynamic that I find interesting and leniency might apply. My husband’s daughters are probably narcissists and are very toxic even to him. They triangulate him all the time or don’t call him or return his calls for very long times unless they need something from him. Right now he hasn’t talked to his oldest daughter (I believe is a MMR) and he has no idea how her life is going. He still talks on the phone with his younger daughter (LMR) and she uses him as a soundboard basically. He is lenient towards them in a way where he is detached but at the same time he is always there for them. From what he said to me, he doesn’t like how they turned out but he will always be there for them. He also recognizes that they are their individual persons (adults) and they are entitled to be who they want to be regardless of him approving it or not. I think he is hurt in a way but he finds a way to be detached (or lenient) about it. But he’s definitely not indifferent and I don’t think he feels pity for them either. Maybe more a a frustration being managed through a degree of detachment.

          2. WiserNow says:

            Hi MP,

            The dynamics between family members like the ones between your husband and his grown daughters change and evolve over time. The dynamics were first created when the girls were small and he was with his first wife. Now that he is with you and his daughters are older, the original ‘family unit’ has changed and the dynamics have changed too as a result.

            Your husband is probably facing a negative backlash from them because he now has a ‘new family’ and his priorities are with you and your young children. So, his daughters are no longer as important and are in the background now. In addition, they are narcissists or narcissistic, so there will be toxicity there too.

            He is still their father and they are his children, so the attachment will always be there, but it will have negative elements to it. I think the detachment or leniency is necessary, otherwise the past stirs up emotions that have too much influence over the present and future lives of everyone.

            It is understandable that your husband feels hurt, or resentful, or sad etc about his daughters, and they may feel those things about him too. It doesn’t really help to dwell on those emotions, unless you consciously try to resolve them in order to reduce them or move forward from them.

        2. Fiddleress says:

          Hi MP,
          What you wrote: “I noticed the Normal didn’t call out the N for being a bully but called out the E for being submissive.” is right, but at that point, the E was talking about a previous relationship, mostly, and events in her life.
          A normal has not much empathy for strangers, so her attitude was not surprising. I kept my mouth shut towards the N because I’d been disciplining myself not to meddle. I knew I ran the risk of flying off the handle if I did open my mouth, notably because she reminded me of my mother at times! The presence of the N made me feel like I could turn into a dragon, plus I knew there was no point saying anything to her (thanks to HG).
          But I am glad after all that I did tell the empathic partner what I thought in the end. Hopefully she got the message about ‘the wrong person’, but it is her life (ooohhh, how these last 5 words hurt my fingers!).

          If I’d had my way, I would have shackled the N to a tree in the nearby woods (and thrown away the key – she would have been found by passers by later on anyhow, after we’d escaped), taken the E aside and told her what I had observed, even offered to put her up at my place until she’d studied and taken in all of HG’s work before she started dating again! It was obvious to me (I could feel it though she didn’t say it) that she had suffered quite a lot in life, whereas she kept finding her partner excuses because “she had divorced her husband, and her previous partner died” (years ago), “so it is only normal that she should speak about them every day” – no, sister, that’s called triangulation.
          I don’t often meet empaths in my life, so this was an important encounter.

          1. MP says:

            Hello Fiddleress,

            I didn’t get WP notification of your reply and just saw this. It got me laughing to imagine what you would have done if you got your way. I remember fantasizing about doing something similar to a social media mogul that I believe is a narc. I was thinking if I have my way I would kidnap him and chain him to a wall and leave bread and water in front of him where he couldn’t reach and write on the wall in front of him with red paint “Stay there until you learn humility.” I was starting to wonder if my fantasy was too evil but reading what you would have wanted to do to the N I’m glad other empaths sometimes entertain thoughts like that too.

            I think it’s wonderful that you were there for her and talking to her privately could have even made a better impact for her than calling out the N who might just threaten the N’s control and might just lash out on her in front of you. I remember when my husband stood up for me against my N sister she lashed out at me instead of him. I think the way you did it made it more personal to the E and more meaningful.

      3. Fiddleress says:

        Hi WiserNow,
        Thank you for your response, very interesting to read.
        I totally agree that there is a difference between pity and compassion. I asked myself what ‘leniency’ encompassed when I read the quote, and I thought it could encompass pity (*not* compassion), with that degree of contempt.

        I’ll take a very recent example (the past few days): There was a couple (of two women) staying where I was, where everyone has breaksfast and dinner together. I had a week to observe them. Interestingly enough, I took an instant dislike to one of them, and an instant like to the other. That was instinctive. Then it became clear to me that one of them was a narcissist (the one I disliked), and the other an empath (for the latter, it was clear from the way she behaved especially when something very upsetting took place, and we each reacted on the instant with our guts, which really exposed each of us for what we were and I understood why I had disliked that woman so quickly). Very early on, a question that I never uttered formed in my mind towards that empath: “Are you sure you are happy in that relationship?”
        The empath had been courted and made to leave her previous partner by this N, and was now clearly in devaluation. I had to make huge efforts to shut up and not tell either of them what I could see, but the put-downs in public (!) of the N towards her partner drove me nuts. I felt huge compassion for the E patner, and there was not once ounce of contempt there.
        I did manage to put a word in, indirectly. That empath was telling her story and someone (a normal, I think) said: “but you are a submissive woman!”. That hurt me too. The empath said “I think you’ve found the right description there”. So when I said goodbye, I couldn’t help saying to that empath: “You are not a submissive woman; you have a big heart. ‘submissive’ is when you are with the wrong person. Please take care of yourself”.
        So yes, there are nuances, but I tend to beware of pity.

        1. WiserNow says:


          Such a fairly simple or everyday social situation, yet the personalities can make it complex.

          It’s interesting that you gravitated instantly to who you felt was more likable. Perhaps you felt instinctively comfortable with the empathic woman and not so comfortable with the narcissistic woman because you had inherent traits in common with the empathic one.

          Yet, when it comes to the empath’s ‘addiction’ and emotional thinking, empaths are attracted or drawn to narcissists. It makes me think of the saying, “opposites attract” – even though in the first instance, we may see red flags or be uncomfortable regarding the inherent traits.

          The conversation around the empath being called a ‘submissive woman’ is interesting too. Seriously, who would welcome or appreciate being described as ‘submissive’ in a social gathering where people are having a meal together? There are other words more sensitive to the woman and more positive for the conversation, such as diplomatic, or polite, or understanding – even obliging is better than ‘submissive’. While she agreed that it was the ‘right description’, I wonder if she secretly wanted to kick the Normal under the table… 😉🤣 The Normal sounds narcissistic to me, by the way 🙂

          In the article posted on the blog today (Do You See What I See), HG describes a session with the good doctors. The doctors described HG as being ‘arrogant’, to which he said, ‘I call it confidence, but what’s in a word?’. That made me smile. There can be a totally different effect depending on the word used. It also says something about the person using the word.

          It’s good that you were supportive to the empathic woman when saying goodbye.

          1. Fiddleress says:

            WiserNow, I have never been totally conned or ensnared by a female N (‘mother’ is a different story). I have a radar that spots them very quickly, and even when it takes time to click, I instinctively mistrust them. My ET does rise alright when I am around them, but more in terms of anger, after a while. And then I avoid them as much as I can, and don’t miss them for a second! None of my female friends has been an N.

            (As a PS of sorts: I have remembered that ‘compassion means ‘suffer/feel with’: there is a sense of equality in it, so there can be no contempt. ‘Passion’ actually means ‘suffering’ – quite apt, isn’t it?)

            I can see why you would say that woman I call normal sounds narcissistic, but maybe French ‘normal’ is narcissistic, hahaha! Honestly, she seems normal. Just not very diplomatic and the words simply spill out of her mouth.

            I am going to read Do You See What I See, I really enjoy those questions of perception. Thanks for the head up, WiserNow.

          2. WiserNow says:

            You’re welcome Fiddleress, and thank you also. I enjoy these questions of perception too. Thank you for raising the first question in this conversation.

            It’s funny that you say French normal is narcissistic 🙂 I think it’s like that all over the world. In general, I think Normals all over the world are moving up the spectrum and into the ‘narcissistic’ zone.

            I have been thinking that I am too sensitive when it comes to these sorts of things. Would anyone else object to the word ‘submissive’ being used? I mean, if that is what the woman appeared to be, then why change the obvious description? At times, I have said things that I think are appropriate in the moment only to realise later that my opinion wasn’t diplomatic or kind. Whatever we say or do, there will be someone, somewhere who will be annoyed or think we shouldn’t have.

            Narcissists are ‘lucky’ in that respect I guess, because they don’t self-reflect or feel embarrassed. They feel justified and then simply move on to the next issue they need to control.

            I can understand what you say about spotting Narc women. I have an instinctive mistrust about people in general and my ‘radar’ is working whenever I meet anyone new too. I think that instinctive ‘sensitivity’ developed along with empathy at a very young age.

            When it comes to contempt, it is a narcissistic emotion. While feeling contempt, a person is saying, “I am right and you are wrong” etc. In that moment, the narcissistic black and white assumption doesn’t allow for compassion (i.e. to suffer/feel with) or truthseeking or justice. During the emotion of contempt, the sections of the brain that enable the empathic traits must be turned off.

          3. Fiddleress says:

            Also WiserNow, thanks for saying it was good of me to be supportive of the empathic woman when we said goodbye; I actually thought as I was saying those words to her that I should keep my mouth shut, but I couldn’t (meaning I decided against it). I trust that she didn’t feel I was crossing a line, and my wish is that it made her feel appreciated and worthy.

          4. WiserNow says:

            That’s okay Fiddleress. I think it was a kind and thoughtful thing to do and it shows that you were moved to act after feeling the injustice towards her. From what you said, I think she would have taken it as well-meaning and also as a compliment.

          5. MP says:

            Re the “submissive woman” comment by a Normal, I would believe that a Normal said it. In my personal observation, and I can be off, some women here in the West seems to have some contempt or judgement towards what they deem as “submissive women”. I noticed the Normal didn’t call out the N for being a bully but called out the E for being submissive. Unless I am missing something.

            I remember at one party I was going back to the buffet table and I asked my husband if he wants anything that I can get for him and a lady who is married to my husband’s colleague rolled her eyes with a smile while subtly shaking her head and I felt she was judging me as submissive in her mind even though she didn’t say anything. Later on she made a comment about how my husband married me because I’m submissive. She was very nice to me the whole time except for that part. My husband jokingly told her she has no idea what she is talking about because he’s actually scared of me. But it made me realize there is an expectation from wives to prove that they are not submissive and also the judgment is even worse if the husband is an alpha male like there’s so many assumptions that are automatically made. So since then I altered my behavior a little bit in front of other people.

          6. WiserNow says:


            In your example, I don’t see that you asking your husband if he wants anything from the buffet table as being submissive. To me that’s a courteous or time-efficient thing to do for someone you are close to. I’ve done that for people and others have done it for me too, and I don’t see anything ‘submissive’ about that.

            To me, I would say that the lady who rolled her eyes and made a comment felt entitled to cast judgement in a situation where it wasn’t warranted. I would ask why she felt the need to judge you. Even though she was very nice to you, she was critical and thought you should be a certain way. Perhaps it was because of the social group you were with? Maybe they have a kind of socially accepted style of behaviour or expectation. I think that’s a narrow-minded kind of judgement. I can understand why you altered your behaviour a little bit, however, I don’t think you should question yourself or doubt your intentions because of superficial judgements like that.

            “I noticed the Normal didn’t call out the N for being a bully but called out the E for being submissive.”

            I have noticed this kind of entitled, socially open, subtle ‘blaming’ of traits that are considered ‘soft’ or ‘weak’ or ‘gullible’. Meanwhile, bullying or controlling traits are considered acceptable or strong or justified. I think Normals in general are inclined to see bolder or dominating/controlling traits as superior or something to be proud of.

            There is a family that lives in the house behind mine that has three small children. The oldest looks about 7 or 8 while the younger ones look about 6 and 4. I have listened while they play together in their backyard. They are very loud, yelling and shouting rather than talking together. They’re physical and rowdy and while playing, they don’t use complete sentences. They shout and say things like, “Janey, get down! Janey, get down! Dad! Tell Janey to get down!” (Janey is not a real name.) Then, whether or not Janey gets down, they forget all about that and start yelling about something else, like, “Come over here! Let me have it! No, I want it! Come on, give it to me! Daaaddd!?!?”

            This kind of stop/start constant shouting goes on for hours. At times, I am irritated by the noise and I feel like shouting out myself and telling them to play more quietly.

            While listening, I have thought that they simply yell about whatever comes instinctively to them and they don’t stop for a second to have a cognitive thought. I never hear them say a complete and thoughtful sentence about anything. There is rarely an adult with them to say anything or instruct them or talk to them while they’re playing.

            I have also heard them repeat something to themselves over and over again and they don’t move forward with the thought process. For example, they will pretend they’re on youtube and will say, “Hey Guys, I’m here on youtube to tell you about . . .” and then again they’ll repeat, “Hey Guys, I’m here on youtube to tell you about . . .” and they’ll say that about 10 times in a row without saying anything else.

            I think they are given very little involved adult attention or guidance when it comes to discussions, story-telling, exploration, and just everyday conversations and interactions etc. They aren’t shown examples or given instruction for advancing their social skills and knowledge. That’s my observation anyway.

            It makes me wonder what kind of personalities they will have when they’re older. If they interact with someone who is quiet and thoughtful and takes their time to assess a situation cognitively before speaking, they may think that person is weak or nerdy or ‘sensitive’ while they will believe they are ‘stronger’ because they just do things instinctively.

            So, going back to the Normal who called out the submissive woman but didn’t say anything about the bully, I tend to think that bullying characteristics are generally not called out in society in general by the ‘nose-down Normals’. I think extroversion is seen as bold and more confident than introversion and likewise, in general, empathy isn’t that well understood.

          7. MP says:

            Thank you WiserNow, I agree with what you said about the lady and also I think it was the alcohol speaking since she was drinking. And she may have blurted it out without thinking because she and her husband were having a banter against my husband. And also my huge age gap with my husband may have made her judge me too.

            I think that you have really good observations. I remember the Keanu Reeves meme:

            “I hate when people ask me, “Why are you so quiet?” Because I am. That’s how I function. I don’t ask others, “Why are you so noisy?” “Why do you talk so much?” It’s rude.”

            I can relate to what he said because I have been asked those questions too. I am not usually shy and I can talk to almost anyone and speak in front of people but I have moments where I just want to watch everyone or just avoid everyone and just be with myself. Even in my home country, introversion is considered as a handicap almost. I remember my fellow parents worried that their kids would be introvert. For me I think I don’t mind an introvert kid, I just want them to be socially capable. I am inherently extrovert but because my mom forced me to stay home except for school, I am not that confident with my social skills. Although now I am learning to not overthink about the way I present to people and I am finally being able to just myself and not care if I am accepted, liked or not. I just know I am magnificently made and nobody has to agree with me, I know God does and my family does and that’s more than enough.

            My husband is actually an introvert because he prefers to just stay at home at watch TV or swim with us. But people think he’s extrovert because in social settings he is usually one of the people that go around and make people laugh. But he actually avoids people when he can. Being an introvert is definitely not a bad thing and it doesn’t mean they don’t have social skills.

          8. MP says:

            Hello WiserNow, I don’t know if you have been seeing the news about Afghanistan right now but I’m deeply disturbed by what is going on. I will not be posting for a while because I’m not in my element right now. I feel really bad about the women who were planning to go to college but will now be forced to be concubines for narcissists. I saw a video of a crying 23 year old woman. She was only 3 when the US started Westernizing them, she has never known how it is to live under Taliban rule and now her whole life has changed. My heart is really broken. I don’t understand why the world is not doing anything. I hope you stay well. Take care.

          9. WiserNow says:

            Hello MP,

            Thank you for both of your replies. I can relate to you about being social sometimes and then also enjoying or needing ‘alone’ time. I feel that way in general. I enjoy being with or around people and then I also feel like my internal battery needs recharging by being alone or in a quiet atmosphere. I definitely feel more ‘energised’ after being alone.

            About Afghanistan, yes, I have been watching some of the news. I’m sorry that you are feeling deeply disturbed about it. I agree, the Taliban and its ideology is deeply disturbing. I heard descriptions where men can be murdered for not having the ‘correct’ beard length or for playing music. It’s mind-blowing.

            The countries where these kinds of never-ending wars are a way of life also have deeply misogynistic attitudes regarding women too. It sounds like empathy is very thin on the ground there. Apparently, the last 20 years of Western ‘assistance’ in the form of funding and military efforts to help alleviate the conflict and keep the Taliban from taking over was overturned in the space of months. I heard in the news that the underlying cause was rife corruption in relation to the US funding assistance. I’m not sure that fighting fire with fire is the way to go either.

            I really don’t know what the rest of the world can do to make meaningful change there. Honestly, it seems like a never-ending problem.

            It’s better for you if you don’t watch the news or only watch small amounts of it. There are many things going on at the moment that make watching the news disturbing. Turn off the news and focus on something else that makes you feel relaxed and happier.

            Thank you for your well wishes MP. I hope you stay well too. Take care of yourself and your family as well. Best wishes to you xx 😘❤️

          10. MP says:

            Thank you WN, many aspects of this event bothers me and that includes the political ineptness involved but I don’t want to start anything that will just be a waste of my time online. A lot of N behaviors are in full display though if people are paying attention.

            As a mom of two little kids and as a woman the turn of events affect me deeply. I wish that we would start electing leaders with empathy who would actually care about how their decisions could impact the ones who are trapped in their circumstances. My country has a responsibility to take care of this since my country decided to give them hope twenty years ago only to be a false hope. Around 22 years ago I remember seeing a picture of an Afghan Woman for the first time during our Womyn’s Studies and the speaker told us that Afghan Women has ti carefully maneuver a glass of water inside her clothing to be able to drink. The young me wished there was something that can be done for these women. The 23 year old Afghan woman that I saw was wearing braids and her face was not covered and she is beautiful. She was alternating between crying and laughing which to me is a sign of mental shock or trauma or detachment. She was raised where she didn’t have to be covered and thought she can have freedom but now she could be forced to marry someone. The false hope bothers me and also abandoning the people who helped us without giving them enough time to prepare or warning. I think that empathic leaders would not do that.

          11. MP says:

            Hello WN, This is probably not a popular opinion but for me, if I have my way, I would own up to the mistake of pulling out without securing people and armaments and do what we can to remove the Taliban from Afghanistan. The US has so many weapons and capabilities, we just don’t use them. I would even send out snipers to shoot Talibans who would harm Afghans. I’m pretty sure that there would be some people in the military who would be smart enough to come up with a winning strategy. But letting evil prevail wouldn’t be my strategy. It’s not something that I can ignore if I have the power to make a difference.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            “do what we can to remove the Taliban from Afghanistan.” – what do you think the last 20 years was about?
            ” would even send out snipers to shoot Talibans who would harm Afghans.” – it is best if you refrain from commenting on matters you don’t understand. By the way, I thought this crisis had caused you to need to take a break, I haven’t seen a break in your commenting.

          13. MP says:

            I have taken a break HG, after a couple of days I decided to reply to the responses to me. But I haven’t posted as much as I used to.

            I was just stating my opinions and having conversations. I didn’t present myself as an expert on this and even said that there would have to be someone in the military who could device a strategy.

            My point is, the US promised the Afghan interpreters that if they helped they will be able to come here to the US. They risked their lives and their family’s lives to help us and we just abandoned them. Now we have pretty much signed their death warrants and their whole families will likely be executed as well. Who else would want to trust us after this if we needed someone to help us? We have a moral duty to honor what we promised to them. They have received notices from the Talibans that they know where they are and they will be coming for them and their families.

            HG, I just don’t understand Biden’s unwillingness to take accountability for pulling out without a carefully laid out plan to evacuate people. And now he said he wouldn’t change a thing. He blamed everyone else before saying an empty cliche “The buck stops with me.” And his answer to an interview about this was “That was 4 days ago” The lack of empathy and responsibility is just astounding. But then again you have identified him as a narcissist so I should really stop being shocked.

            Hindsight wise, as a citizen I wish I knew exactly what the game plan in Afghanistan was and what was really going on. I was made to believe that it was an endless war. I was not aware that the Afghans actually wanted us to stay there. I was not aware that there had been no American soldiers injured in the last 18 months or so. I was not aware of the progress that the women in Afghanistan have made in the last twenty years and all of that is now thrown away by all of this. There’s just so many things I wish people knew and things handled differently hindsight wise.

            Now the Talibans ordered families to put an x on their door if they have a 12 year old daughter or older and if not the whole family will be executed. They have found a country to cultivate terrorism in and the whole world will be adversely affected. It is very sad for me to imagine.

          14. WiserNow says:


            It is desperately sad and I can’t even imagine how terrifying it must be to live there. I don’t know the political details of the current situation and what lead to it, so I’m not going to comment about that. We don’t receive all of the news about the US government so that’s not for me to discuss.

            I really don’t know what to say, except that it’s a horrible situation in Afghanistan for the innocent citizens that live there. I can understand your feelings of sadness and anger.

            When I think of the individuals who make up the Taliban and other similar military groups, it makes me think that on an individual basis, the people in those groups are deeply entrenched psychologically in a pattern of beliefs based on religion, war, conflict and terror etc. If the Taliban was removed or quashed, it’s very likely that another group would form to take its place with the same entrenched beliefs. Emotional thinking on a grand scale.

            How does that change? Education comes to mind as the major way. How does education take hold with emotional thinking on such a grand scale? While there is such a state of generational war and terror, I don’t see how.

          15. MP says:

            Hello WiserNow, I agree with you. This reminds me of the things we learned from H.G. about how narcissists and even some psychopaths develop. There has to be genetic predisposition and trauma from LOC that expresses the genes that would complete the creation of an N. The Talibans are very violent kinds of Ns and that’s because they have had traumatic violent experiences from childhood living in the kind of society that they were in and the very strict rules that they have in their lifestyles the LOC is extremely strong. I remember how ISIS creates extremely violent psychopath soldiers by starting to train them as a child. Most of us have seen videos of those children being ordered to kill and fight. All of these force them to be the way that they are. And I believe a lot of the private citizens there would have a very strong Martyr cadre based on being treated as lower class citizens. We are so blessed we weren’t born in that world.

          16. WiserNow says:

            Hello MP,

            Yes, everything you have said rings true to me and you have said it beautifully.

            After watching the news and seeing the scenes of fear and loss and anger in Afghanistan, it makes me think how important childhood safety and education is. How important tolerance, acceptance and compassion are. Plus, music, art, story-telling, fun, humor, romance and daydreams. Those things are just as important as the food we eat and the roof over our heads.

          17. MP says:

            Yes and all of those will be taken from the Afghans now. This is what real oppression really is. They have destroyed their art works and musical instruments when the Taliban took over because they could be executed for it.

          18. WiserNow says:

            HG and MP,

            Here’s an idea out of left field that may work . . . it’s worth a try, considering nothing else seems to . . .

            What if the big pharma companies, vying for worldwide government funding, competed to see which one could make the world’s first empathy gas? It could be like a vaccine, but in gas-form, based on microscopic mirror neuron dna fragments.

            Then, instead of spending vast sums of money collected from taxpaying citizens on increasingly sophisticated weapons of mass destruction, governments could spend the funds on methods to deploy empathy gas balloons that floated gently to the ground, emitting scented clouds of empathy all over the world . . .?

            Hey, it’s worth a try.

            Isn’t the definition of madness doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?

          19. HG Tudor says:

            The Chemical Weapons Convention will scupper your scheme, unless you can get Egypt, North Korea and South Sudan interested.

          20. WiserNow says:

            Then, HG, we have no time to waste by ruminating about this. We need to act fast.

            One way could be to infiltrate the Weapons & Warfare Exhibitions in those countries, posing as a seller of official biblical ideology literature.

            In the books sold at these Warfare Exhibitions, new chapters need to be seamlessly intertwined with the existing words. For example, before a patriotic martyr can get to heaven where seven virgins are waiting, he needs to deeply inhale two doses of empathy gas. Plus, booster inhalations every six months or so. That will be the only way to reach an eternal life of epic hero status.

            We need to cleverly disguise this form of new information into the existing centuries-old biblical and cultural beliefs of these nations.

            Hmmm …. who do we know who has a clever way with words and stories and is a powerhouse of information about narcissism . . .??

          21. MP says:

            Hello WiserNow, I think the definition of madness is the way Biden withdrew without carefully planning to evacuate Americans and honor our promise. When a country doesn’t honor its promise, it shows the world that the country is not a good ally. What a disgrace Biden has been and I am embarrassed for his lack of empathy. Asked about the people falling off from the plane and he says it has been four days ago. Couldn’t even count correctly. One of the people that fell from a plane was a teenage soccer athlete who was one of their country’s best young soccer players. He was hoping to play in the World Cup someday. But for Biden his life has no meaning. It is truly remarkable how a narcissist have no empathy and Biden is proving to be a great specimen.

          22. WiserNow says:

            This situation is very close to you because the US is your home country and Biden is your president, so I understand your feelings. Perhaps your feelings of resentment and shame about what Biden has done are heightened because you are more directly affected.

            From my perspective watching on from a different country without access to all the details, I see it from a position which is more detached. I don’t know all the things Biden has said and done, so I can’t see it from that day-to-day, action-by-action level.

            What I can see though, is that like any government, Biden has a ‘team’ of advisors, officials, ‘experts’ and public relations people around him. So, I don’t place all of the blame entirely on his shoulders. Still, he is the president, so he has the final say. His personality will determine the ultimate political decisions, with some influence from those around him. Considering that he ‘inherited’ the political landscape from Trump, he may be dealing with the aftermath of recent political decisions.

            I don’t see Biden as being a loose cannon like Trump, or as a suave, self-centred somatic, like say, Clinton. I think he has more political awareness.

            Also, the US is considered to be the worldwide ‘leader’ when it comes to these sorts of issues. That is a huge and serious burden to place on one country and one man.

            I’m not defending him or condoning what he has done – not at all. I am staying as neutral as possible. I’m trying to look at the situation from a ‘big picture’ point of view, without making judgement about things I am not fully aware or knowledgeable about.

            In any situation, there are individuals (or groups, or minorities, or genders, or ethnic/demographic sections etc) that are tragic victims. If you look at the children separated from parents during Trump’s presidency, the journalists murdered in various countries, the women and girls gang-raped in India, etc etc etc. There are so many tragic cases of horrible things happening everywhere, that you could spend all day, every day, blaming someone, somewhere for something.

            I feel for the people who lost their lives in Afghanistan and for those that are living in horrible fear for their own lives and their families. It’s a terrible tragedy.

            I also see that it is one tragedy among many. The more I think about all these separate tragedies, the more I feel that it doesn’t help to think about them and try to assign blame. There are no easy solutions, unfortunately.

            I do understand your feelings of anger, resentment and blame though. Please know that there are many other people that feel that way.

          23. HG Tudor says:

            It’s far simpler. MP gets to bash Biden since her hero Trump is not in office.

          24. WiserNow says:

            I see it as MP saying how she feels because these events have just happened in her home country and it’s alarming.

            It’s okay to do that. You have created a place where it’s safe and constructive to communicate about these things to others, so it’s all good 🙂

          25. HG Tudor says:

            Well, you are incorrect.

          26. WiserNow says:

            How did I know you were likely to say that, HG? ☺️

          27. HG Tudor says:

            You didn’t.

          28. MP says:

            Hello WN, I quickly read your response. I understand where you are coming from. I have a different perspective and a lot of people feel the same way as I do. I hope you don’t mind me ending the conversation here. Take care.

          29. WiserNow says:

            Hi MP,

            That’s okay, I understand and I don’t mind. I hope you take care too.

            If I can just say one thing before I end this conversation MP – and please don’t feel a need to reply.

            Your anger and frustration is justified and you have a right to feel it. You have a right to your opinion. If your anger manifests into ‘action’, it can go in two ways: one is to help or alleviate, the other is to criticise or blame.

            As I write this, I am saying it to myself as well because I need to remember this constantly too. So, I really hope you don’t see it as a lecture or in a ‘blaming’ way. This is a ‘lesson’ that has taken me a very long time to learn and I’m still learning.

            I wish you all the best MP. Take care of yourself and your family xx❤️🦋✌🏾

          30. WiserNow says:

            **Dear MP,

            On re-reading my comment, what I wanted or meant to say is:
            ** “If I can just say one thing before this conversation ends… ” **

            This is only one conversation, by the way. I would be happy to converse with you in any future discussions we may have 🙂

          31. MP says:

            Hello WN, Thank you for your response. It doesn’t have to be EITHER/OR. Holding someone accountable is NOT a bad thing. We can call that blaming but it doesn’t change the fact that there are some people who are accountable. And just because someone is holding somebody accountable/blaming, it doesn’t mean they are not helping as well. I have helped in many different ways during this ordeal (donations, prayers, spreading petitions, signing up as a foster parent or to hose a refugee). And it doesn’t mean I am not allowed to hold my president accountable.

            And I am not saying this out of anger but just to clarify. 💗✌️

          32. WiserNow says:

            Hello MP,

            I understand you and I realize you’re not saying it out of anger 💖🌻🙂

            I didn’t mean to say it’s ‘either/or’. I’m sorry if it came across that way. On a side-note, I have been aiming to write shorter comments and be more succinct. I didn’t actually mean for it to sound so ‘black and white’.

            I regard you as an intelligent, thoughtful and aware woman, MP, so I know you don’t see things in a narrow way and I’m not saying that you’re not allowed to hold your president accountable.

            Like you, I also believe people should be held accountable. I think laws do and should exist to ensure (as much as possible) that this happens.

            When it comes to politicians, they are mostly narcissists – not just Biden, or Trump, but almost all politicians in many nations. There are ministers and leaders in all parties in my country who are obviously narcissists. As we know from what we have learned from HG and from our own experiences, narcissists will not accept accountability.

            In my country, for example, there are press conferences every day for each state where the Premier of that state answers journalist’s questions about the pandemic. From these daily press conferences, it is very clear that the highly narcissistic leaders avoid answering questions, or deliberately obfuscate, or speak in word salads, or put a particular spin on things without giving factual information. It becomes clear after a while that these narcissist leaders simply will not be accountable, no matter how a question is phrased or repeated.

            Going back to what I meant in my previous comment, I didn’t mean that government leaders should not be held accountable or ‘blamed’. I believe they should be held accountable. However, expecting them to personally ‘become’ accountable and start behaving differently is not going to happen, because they are narcissists.

            So, what I meant by saying, ‘help and alleviate or criticise and blame” wasn’t intended to say that you’re not allowed or justified to criticise and blame. I meant that it’s not going to change Biden (or any narcissist) to blame or criticise them. They are narcissists and they won’t change. What I meant to say was that any ‘action’ taken will be ‘productive’ or positive if it helps and alleviates the situation or problem.

            I am sorry, MP, that I didn’t explain my thoughts more clearly 🙂

          33. MP says:

            I just want to add WN, I decided to respond even though I don’t want to continue discussing Biden because you seem to have made an assumption that when someone tries to hold someone accountable, or as you prefer to use the word “blame”, that that is all that they do and they are not helping. We are actually capable of doing both things simultaneously. For me, when people don’t want to hold someone accountable, they are helping gaslight the victims. I don’t want to help gaslight. I have read a lot of Afghans feel deep pain because people would actually argue with them that the evacuation is successful. I don’t want to be a part of that gaslighting. And I am also very actively helping at the same time.

            Also I understand that it is a lesson you are learning or have learned, but at the same time I don’t know what made you think that I need to learn that too or that I haven’t learned that yet. 🤷‍♀️ Just wondering and I am not asking this because I’m upset or anything. It just seems to me that some people tend to make assumptions on people based on their political leanings and I wonder if that was a factor at all.

            That is all. Anyway, I appreciate our different perspectives. Namaste! 🧘‍♀️✌️💞

          34. Violetta says:


            I’ve been bashing Biden too, even though I voted for him and detest Trump. I even acknowledge Trump probably would’ve fucked it up in another direction.

            But your comments about Reagan and everyone after him are correct. There’s even a Rambo movie where Stallone’s character expresses admiration for the Afghanis’ standing up to the Soviets.

            As Kissinger said of Iran and Iraq, “It’s a pity both sides can’t lose.”

          35. Witch says:


            Lost cause…dem countries will say too much empathy will lead to man loving man “unnaturally” which will cause an earthquake

          36. WiserNow says:

            Hi Witch,

            Yes, I can imagine 😂 That made me laugh. Can you imagine what would happen if two men started walking hand in hand through one of the crowded markets there? OMG!!!!

            Whenever I see news reports etc from lands like that, it’s strange to me that there are hardly any women anywhere just going about their normal lives. It’s like spot the female amongst a thousand males. When any women are visible, they are covered up from head to toe.

            That makes me think that all that testosterone milling about on the streets and in the communities together with unrealistic religious beliefs and no healthy outlet creates an unhealthy need for some ‘other’ kind of outlet. There’s anger and frustration and hair-trigger rivalry. It’s like a big pot of gunpowder just waiting to be ignited in some way.

            On the other extreme, we here in the ‘west’ are at the point where women are almost free to walk around naked. When I watch music video shows and see pop stars rolling around in bed wearing lingerie while singing obviously suggestive lyrics, it looks like soft-porn and worse. And these shows are aimed at children and teens. It sends a message as if to say, ‘I’m a young woman and sex is all I’m here for’. I see young teen girls wearing short shorts or very tight gym gear and it makes me think that the sexual overtones are ‘too much’. In a social situation when women are dressed that way, it’s easy to imagine what men are thinking when they see that.

            So, both of those ‘extremes’ are not healthy *IF* there is a lack of cognitive understanding and self-restraint.

            How to make people understand that though…? That’s the million-dollar question.

          37. Witch says:

            My mothers home country is proposing a bill to enforce prosecution of openly lgbt people and anyone who advocates for them. It also seeks to prosecute those who openly oppose the bill which will restrict freedom of speech for all citizens.
            Due to fundamentalist Christianity a lot of the citizens appear to support the bill. So I’m not really hopeful that it won’t pass.
            A Nigerian gay man said to me that he gets more offers of D in Nigeria than he does in England. It’s funny how more people are probably willing to try it in these ultra religious countries yet they are the most homophobic publicly

          38. WiserNow says:


            “It’s funny how more people are probably willing to try it in these ultra religious countries yet they are the most homophobic publicly.”

            That’s interesting. Personally, I believe any group, or society, has roughly the same proportion of straight and homosexual (or lgbt) people. The outwardly ‘visible’ numbers will not ‘look’ the same though, because of how tolerant or accepting the society is.

            In my country, same-sex marriage was made legal about two years ago. It was made legal after a nation-wide referendum (a process of voting either ‘for’ or ‘against’). Before the result was known, there was a lot of talk in the news, media and social circles about both sides and it was difficult to gauge the outcome. It ended up being roughly 60/40 (60% for same-sex marriage and 40% against).

            In countries with fundamentalist religions and similar strong conservative beliefs in the general population, the tolerance levels are lower. This makes it harder for lgbt people to feel free to openly behave as they would like to, or in the way that feels ‘natural’ to them.

            In turn, when people in general don’t see or experience lgbt people behaving naturally in normal everyday life, it looks strange or ‘threatening’ or shameful when they do see it. There’s a kind of ‘self-affirming’ belief system going on.

    4. Joa says:

      As a young girl, I loved Balzac. I’ve read dozens of his novels.

      Leniency – there is for sure. Less is required of such a person, he is excused and relieved. As if he was at least disabled …

      I think there is a form of unintentional contempt, or at least disregard.

    5. Leigh says:

      Fiddleress, Wow! I think that quote from Balzac is dead on accurate. It was a tough lesson to learn that there is evil so close to me. For me, leniency didn’t bring contempt until I had awareness. He says it perfectly, “Then when their education therein is complete, they rise to a form of leniency which is the ultimate degree of contempt.” Before I was educated and aware, when I was lenient, I didn’t feel contempt or pity. I felt sad for them and I wanted to help the situation by making it easier. Now, with awareness, when I’m lenient and making it easier for the narc, I feel contempt. I don’t just feel contempt for them, I feel contempt for myself as well. It irritates me that I have to show leniency and placate. I agree that once I go no contact, feeling that contempt will help me with my no contact regime.

    6. Joa says:

      Again, the Balzac quote caught my attention.

      I think the point is that the giver’s mercy is perceived as contempt by the receiver. Not that the donor feels contempt.


      Though I feel it sometimes. For what he did to our child. He didn’t give himself to her. Even crumbs.

      “I can’t love her, I just can’t”… A stream of my inner tears, because my eyes have been dry for a long time…

      1. Leigh says:

        That’s interesting Joa. Are you saying if I’m lenient with someone that they will view it like I feel contempt for them and that’s why I’m being lenient? Or are you saying they will feel contempt for me for being lenient?

  5. Asp Emp says:

    Despite my bent halo 😉

    I am going to take HG’s article out of context – by switching it from his descriptions of a narcissist’s perception (where applicable in this article). Some of the article is applicable as read, in relation to empaths.

    As empaths, we, together,

    # 1. Responsibility – we may feel we have a responsibility (it’s in our empath nature) to help and support each other – and we do – yet, as individuals, we know we have a responsibility to ourselves to learn what we need to do – reduce our addiction to narcissism and find ways to manage it to weaponise ourselves better against narcissism’s affects.

    # 2. Owe – we owe it to ourselves to do as I suggested in # 1. We also owe HG the honour of his work and to share it as much as we can (safely, against potential ‘harm’ of narcissists that may remain around us).

    # 3. Sorry – in my view, we have nothing to be sorry about. Yes, we empathise and offer sympathy to each other, not narcissists of our past. “Love means never having to say sorry”.

    # 4. Guilty – in my view, we have nothing to feel guilty about because we were ensnared simply for having an addiction to narcissism. Do not feel guilty for toughening yourselves as individuals against narcissism.

    # 5. Need to fix – as empaths, we only have an ‘obligation’ and a need to fix ourselves as individuals before we can be in a better place to help others where narcissism is concerned.

    # 6. Duty – we may feel we have a duty (it’s in our empath nature) to help and support each other – and we do – yet, as individuals, we know we have a duty to ourselves to learn what we need to do – reduce our addiction to narcissism and find ways to manage it to weaponise ourselves better against narcissism’s affects.

    # 7. Abide by standards – absolutely. As individuals, we have our own ‘standards’, which, respectfully, may be different from each other’s as empaths, as long as you feel comfortable about your own standards that you have set for yourself.

    # 8. Maintain appearances – (giggling, inappropriately, for a moment, what ‘appearances’? 😉 ) – those of you who are parents, would have a need to stay strong in front of your children – as a form of protection to them. HG’s words “ It is taking one for the team in order to maintain an appearance so that you deal with the pain and aggravation so others do not” – yet no-one should have to deal with it on their own. Speak out where possible and it’s safe to do so.

    # 9. Never give up – HG’s words in the article under # 9 are applicable, excluding “We applaud this desire to stick at things” from a narcissist’s perspective – however, including them from our perceptions as empaths. And we should be saying those words to ourselves, every day.

    # 10. Done your best – absolutely as per HG’s words in this paragraph. Assess, analyse, evaluate, reassess, re-analyse, re-evaluate ourselves as individuals in relation to our learning and measuring where we are on our journey to ‘beat the narcissist’ from within ourselves (the instilled conditioning from narcissistic abuse) mentally and emotionally by psychologically re-processing our ET / LT to be more in sync.

    It is easier said than done.
    It can be done.
    Tell yourselves and each other that it will be done.
    Most of all, tell HG, that you can, will and have done it. In respectful return for the existence of his work.

    1. doginheaven52 says:

      Excellent and so helpful. I’m referring HG to residents where I work with female addicts and inmates. I put the website on their personal after-care plan when I can. If I could get the acoustics to work right and hook up my laptop we would listen to segments and discuss them. I’m working on this. Our big ass agency is like turning a battle ship around when it comes to getting things done and bringing us into the 21st century.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Excellent work, thank you for referring people to my work. I appreciate you doing so.

        1. doginheaven52 says:

          You are more than welcome HG… Thank you for everything you do.—educating, bringing awareness to what Narcissism is and what it is not and most of all for all the lives you are saving in so many different ways. The most tragic, suicide and homicide.

      2. Asp Emp says:

        doginheaven52, that is absolutely brilliant to read. It’s a really good way of educating those who are vulnerable and to be able to discuss segments (I suppose to aid further understanding, if required?). Made me giggle ‘big ass agency’. I can understand what you mean in relation to turning a battle ship around – it takes time. So great that you are involved in making changes for those that need it for the better. It’s good to know, kudos to you. 🙂

      3. BC30 says:

        THANK YOU D52!!! I see the tragic end of many women* dead at the hands of abusers.

        *(and men too)

  6. Whitney says:

    Dear HG the God,
    I just wanted to tell you a MMR-B hoovered me again.

    He was a friend who was trying to ensnare me. I met him from his “suicidal” post to a public forum. I started trying to help him. I didn’t know about different types of Narcissists yet. I was probably subconsciously trying to fulfil my Narcissist addiction.

    He didn’t want me to leave his house after I listened to him for 3 hours. He pulled me and tried to make me stay there. After that I started No Contact, in 2018.

    He called me from a new number. I hung up on him immediately. I only like UMR and higher.

    I wonder the ideal type of Empath for him to target? Carrier Codependent?

    1. Kiki says:

      You only like UMR and higher .
      I don’t understand this statement 😳
      If you know they are a UMR or higher you would RUN no ?


      1. Whitney says:

        No Kiki I have an addiction

      2. BC30 says:

        What, what, what? I want nothing to do with any narcissist, but I MOST CERTAINLY want nothing to do with a Greater.

    2. Asp Emp says:

      Whitney, I agree with Kiki’s comment in response to your comment. I assumed that you were on this blog to learn how to manage your addiction to narcissism? Some people had really bad experiences of narcissism – especially ACONs, some of which endured traumatic abuse that an ACON would not even wish anyone else to endure.

      1. Whitney says:

        No Asp I don’t have black and white thinking about Narcs

    3. Bubbles says:

      Dearest Whitney,
      I’m ‘guessing’ a reply from Mr Tudor would most likely go along these lines :-
      “Stay off public forums”
      “Get another new number”
      “You shouldn’t like any”
      “All empaths are targets”
      “Stop wondering”
      “You have high ET”
      “Arrange a consultation”
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    4. Witch says:

      I appreciate you are very codependent and you’ve recognised you have an addiction but since you’re saying you don’t want to do anything about it because you don’t have black and white thinking when it comes to narcissists, which is your choice.
      I wonder what the purpose is for sharing what Narcs you wish to attract and questioning what type of empath is suited to what type of narc?
      HG has never said that there are ideal matches between Narcs and empaths, only that you may attract a certain type of narcissist more often. He has never matched empaths with Narcs to promote an ideal relationship.
      …And also to repeatedly comment that HG is wrong in his assessments of who is a narcissist.
      I mean, free speech and everything I’m just wondering how you believe it’s helpful for you or anyone else?

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Witch, great & valid comment. I like your pic, can I ask what it symbolises, if you do not mind me asking?

        1. Witch says:

          Thank you
          It’s the symbol of the supreme being (god) of the Akan peoples before Christianity was introduced called Nyame (believed by some to be the female aspect) and nyankopon the male aspect

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Witch, thank you for explaining it. It’s nice 🙂

  7. A Victor says:

    Today my oldest daughter told me my second daughter had been visiting her dad, my ex, once a month for the past year. I knew she had seen him but not how often etc. Apparently my ex, who has ms, has gone downhill quite drastically. He can no longer think well, drive, will be in a wheelchair soon and so on. He can no longer live where he has been, due to his health issues. The thought crossed my mind that he could live with me. Several of the above are reasons for this thought. Then I had dinner with a friend who said her soon to be ex did her a favor by leaving, why should she undo that favor, there’s no obligation left. That makes sense but I still cried about my ex being in such bad shape, even after all the abuse he did to me.

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      AV, he abandoned you without a second thought. Never looked back, never contacted you. Never thought of the effect on his children. Ditched them, too. Hooked up with someone new. There are so many ways he did you wrong, and yet I can still understand the tears coming from your loving and empathic heart 🙁 No one, especially an empath, wants to think of someone else suffering. It’s coded into our DNA to help and heal. That is often what the narcissist is counting on. It’s difficult when you have children involved. Especially if they are empaths, too. They are going to be in the same position in some ways, wanting to do the same thing. I don’t want to give you any advice, I can’t. He has made his bed. You are already caring for your mother and offering your support to her. That is an obligation you have chosen to fulfill for now. If we allow them, narcissists would have us being obligated to them for the rest of their/our lives. Your friend, I believe, is right. I know you know it makes sense. Now let me help dry those tears which he doesn’t deserve and which we know he never shed for you. As a narcissist, it’s almost a guarantee he will find a way to meet his own needs.

      1. A Victor says:

        LET, this was exactly what I needed to hear, thank you so much! I can be sad for the lost potential of his life, and for him as a human as he struggles with his health but even these I can’t dwell on, it is a breach of NC. Thank you for your comment, very helpful, one that is being stored in my go to file for moments when I may need the reminder. I am grateful my second daughter has chosen not to divulge about him to me, none of my kids want me to take him back or even reach out to him. This had been literally a fleeting thought on a very few occasions over the years, I have never wanted to do those things in earnest. But it told me how they felt and I am grateful to them. Thank you again LET, my head is back on and straight again! 🙂

        1. MP says:

          Hello AV, My husband’s first wife whom I think is an N also has MS. She’s married to this guy who is younger than her. He takes care of her, pushes her wheelchair, helps her around while she belittles and insulta him. We rarely interact with them and only about my special needs stepson but we see how she’s so bossy to him and treats him like he’s stupid. He’s in and out of alcohol rehab since he married her. My husband has told me several times he doesn’t understand what he’s getting from that marriage and why he’s still with her. Ns never change.

          1. A Victor says:

            My ex’s mind is going also apparently, I believe from the MS, though they deny that it affects the thinking. I thought perhaps this would reduce some of his narcissistic qualities. Probably not the way it sounds.

          2. MP says:

            I personally don’t think it would. I don’t know if you have read the narcissist on deathbead articles here. It can potentially even make his control of facade less and therefore lash out more. But I am not a doctor and it’s just my guess.

          3. A Victor says:

            My dad had Alzheimer’s, died from it last year. He changed but was still pretty horrible sometimes, just in different ways. Who knows how much was the illness vs the narcissism. I have wondered.

          4. MP says:

            Condolence AV. I think illness could affect everyone differently. My mother had Tuberculosis and she was horrible to the doctors and people taking care of her. Not taking her medicines and pulling her IV off until there was no more place to put IV on her. I think the type of illness and type of narcissism could be factors.

          5. A Victor says:

            Thank you MP. He is better off and frankly I am also. I do miss him, who he once was, the good parts. But his narcissism made lots of things quite heavy. I am sorry you had to go through this with your mother also. It is sad for us.

          6. MP says:

            Thank you AV. I could totally relate to what you said. It’s a very complicated mix of emotions. I’m sorry you had to go through that too.

        2. lickemtomorrow says:

          I’m so glad I could help, AV, and maybe dry some of those tears. I’m also glad you were able to make the connection with the breach of NC, and how dwelling on his circumstances would impact on that. It takes a lot of discipline to stay on track, and the fact your daughter who is having contact didn’t mention it I’m sure has greatly assisted in some ways, too. It’s good that the children have your back on this one and they must realize how much better off you all are in the circumstances. It’s moments like these where I think we all need someone to remind us exactly what the narc has put us through. It will at least give us pause in a moment where our ET is naturally raised and our addiction kicks in again. Good to hear yours is lowered again now, AV 🙂

    2. Violetta says:

      Ever read/watch The Burning Bed She allowed her ex- to live with her again after a car accident made him dependant. BIG mistake.

      1. A Victor says:

        Oh dear, I will watch that. I have not before. Thank you.

        1. Asp Emp says:

          AV, all you need is some matches 😉

          1. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, no, I wouldn’t burn anything up!!! Laughing!!!

          2. Asp Emp says:

            AV, better not let TTU use candles 😉 LOL

          3. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, I will keep that in mind!!

          4. Asp Emp says:

            AV, laughing……

        2. Violetta says:

          Based on a real case.

          1. A Victor says:

            That’s really sad. This morning I was like “What were you thinking??” to myself, I have woken up, he would never get back in. My bigger concern is that he would get in at my daughter’s. I don’t thing she would but if so it would really alter dynamics there, I spend a fair amount of time with them, that would have to change. So I wait and see. Thanks again for the suggestion.

        3. doginheaven52 says:

          The book, The Burning Bed and the beating death of a child in NY by her adoptive parents influenced me to major in psychology and later got my MA. The book is super powerful. This is the story of the “man” who beat this precious six-year-old to death:

          Joel Steinberg (born May 25, 1941) is a disbarred New York City criminal defense attorney who attracted international media attention when he was accused of rape and murder and was convicted of manslaughter, in the November 1, 1987, beating and subsequent death of a six-year-old girl, Elizabeth (“Lisa”), whom he and his live-in partner Hedda Nussbaum had illegally adopted.

          He is out of prison now and keeping a low profile. It was heartbreaking to me at the time and I’ve never forgotten this child. My psychopathic qualities were coming through loud and clear on how I would deal with him.

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Doginheaven52, I remember the story, I can’t look at things like that but I do remember it from back then. So awful, that murderer should never be freed.

            Thank you for the recommendation of the book, I will likely just watch the movie as I think Farrah Fawcett was in it and I liked her. I don’t enjoy reading things such as that and watching the movie is only a limited time commitment before it’s over. But, I have no plan to allow my ex back into my life either way. Thank you again!

    3. Asp Emp says:

      AV, I read LET’s response to you. I understand your emotions & thoughts RE: your ex. I would like to remind you of the articles ‘The Ageing Narcissist’ especially in relation to your ex, as you already have one to deal with – TTU. Stay strong & don’t let your ET get the better of you x

    4. Asp Emp says:

      AV, BTW, the comment I just sent you – it is my ‘obligation of the empath’ – from one to another x

      1. A Victor says:

        Aww, thank you!! Yes, I see that, and I appreciate it!

    5. Bubbles says:

      Dearest A Victor,
      Your daughter’s relationship with her dad is vastly different from yours …..she probably didn’t want to upset you by telling you …that’s fair enough
      You are not responsible for him any longer …..he is best left to ‘his’ side of the family’s responsibility or professionals to look after him
      It’s hard enough looking after your mum lovely one let alone attempting someone with MS
      Sorry AV, it would completely destroy you …. don’t even think about it !
      You’re emotions are resurfacing about remembering the way he was pre abuse …. it’s only human and natural !
      Best leave it to the experts
      Just thinking of you precious lady ❤️
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      Ps I’m surrounded by oldies, all in different stages of ill health …. the caring that is required and the emotional toll its taking on the family members is overwhelming enormous
      Our neighbour has a just been diagnosed with a rare motor neurone disease and his wife is already feeling the affects and the mental stress …… he fell over in his garden, couldn’t get up, yelled out and I had to run in and help her get him up ! That’s just the beginning ! 😱

      1. A Victor says:

        Bubbles! I finally found this comment again! They sometimes get lost after I see them for a second, work or something distracts and I spend the rest of the day searching! Yes, my daughter is I think protecting me, I love her more for it! Thank you for your good instruction, I don’t think he’d consider it even if I would, not if he’s going to be incapacitated, he would be “stuck” with just my fuel then, haha, torture! No, I would not allow him to live here, thank you for your kind concern but it was only for a short while.

        Yes, I feel like my life has been a matter of caregiving, first for my siblings as much as I could, then my children, then my dad and now my mother. I guess I’m good at it anyway. It is not what I thought my life would be but it hasn’t been all bad. No need to add another though, especially another narc. <3 🙂

      2. Bubbles says:

        Dearest A Victor,
        Ohhh thank heavens AV ….. it was only a moment of temporary insanity thought ….phew !!!
        I was getting worried for you!
        We Tudorites are always to the rescue !!!
        Very relieved n happy you’re back on track 🚂
        Luv Bubbles xx 😘

        Ps I’ve lost so many comments …. I’m still looking 👀

        1. A Victor says:

          Bubbles, I am so grateful for you and others who speak into my thinking when it seems to be wavering. It really does help!

          1. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            Awesome lovely …. it’s always about self doubt, isn’t it ?
            You should see me umm-ing n arrr-ing at the op shop ….. for goodness sakes Bubbles, made a decision 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  8. Joa says:

    Everything works for me, except for point 4…

  9. doginheaven52 says:

    So… this is a poem I like and feeling now…

    Feeling Fucked Up
    Lord she’s gone done left me done packed / up and split
    and I with no way to make her
    come back and everywhere the world is bare
    bright bone white crystal sand glistens
    dope death dead dying and jiving drove
    her away made her take her laughter and her smiles
    and her softness and her midnight sighs—

    Fuck Coltrane and music and clouds drifting in the sky
    fuck the sea and trees and the sky and birds
    and alligators and all the animals that roam the earth
    fuck marx and mao fuck fidel and nkrumah and
    democracy and communism fuck smack and pot
    and red ripe tomatoes fuck joseph fuck mary fuck
    god jesus and all the disciples fuck fanon nixon
    and malcolm fuck the revolution fuck freedom fuck
    the whole muthafucking thing
    all i want now is my woman back
    so my soul can sing

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Doginheaven52, thank you for sharing this poem. Looking at it from a ‘distance’, I can resonate and understand why you would share this. The ‘light’, or the ‘flame’ has not diminished. It remains. Be secure of that. Reading the second section of this poem, all the ‘fks’ gave me a giggle. I agree, to the things around you, would seem unimportant in comparison when you think your ‘light’ has left you. Let your soul continue to sing.

      1. doginheaven52 says:

        You are so welcome Asp Emp! My late husband could recite it word for word. It is interesting I have suddenly become comfortable with the word F…k and F–king. My adult children can’t stand me saying the words and when we all grow tired of one another during visits, I’ll start saying it. Before leaving they grill me about signs of Alzheimer! ; ^)

        1. Asp Emp says:

          doginheaven52, thank you for your response. I’ve been comfortable with the word ‘Fk’ & ‘Fkg’ since my early 20s – in theory and practice 😉 LOL. Tell your kids, it’s called ‘Tourettes’ and there’s your excuse(s) for saying that and adding more to your vocabulary! (laughing).

          1. doginheaven52 says:

            Yes, that is a great diagnosis…”Tourettes!’ I could shout, “No I don’t have ‘Fkg Alzheimer’ I have ‘Fkg Tourettes.’ Get ‘Fkg’ use to it.” That should be good, good karma for their language when they were teenagers. I love those nifty little initials ‘Fk’ & ‘Fkg.’ My dogs don’t like it when I use these words either… So I’m giving them dog biscuits and treats as I repeat “Fk” over and over to help acclimate them to another part of myself! :*)

          2. Asp Emp says:

            doginheaven52, I could not stop laughing reading your comment. I absolutely love it! “Nifty little initials” hahaha. Your dogs don’t like the ‘fks’ either? LOLOL. How many dogs do you have? Laughing again, new names for the dogs – going out for walks in public….. even better! Ah, bless, thank you for the laugh. x

        2. Violetta says:

          Maybe this will make you feel better (NSFW):

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Violetta, thanks for sharing the video. LOL, the ‘live transcribe’ showed up, once as ‘fox’ instead of fks.

            It reminded me of a ‘transcribed’ audio – ‘knocksite’ and ‘knob detector’ – hilarious (sorry, HG, I am not really sorry LOL).

          2. doginheaven52 says:

            I posted how wonderful this was and wish Etheridge was alive to listen to it. He would love YouTube!

        3. Bubbles says:

          Dearest doginheaven52,
          I’d be concerned if my kids ‘grilled’ me about Alzheimer’s …unless we were all just joking, which we sometimes do
          Our dear ol friend’s daughter made a doctors apt for him after he had a fall, that lasted 75 mins with a quick bonus ‘dementia’ underhanded interrogation test. This was on a Friday, he was admitted to an aged care facility on the Monday!
          She took control of all his possessions and ditched all n sundry
          His phone has been cut off for months so he has no contact with the outside world and we can’t contact him
          We have visited him every week since his ‘incarceration’ and taken him out countless times …he’s been ‘drugged up’ ever since he’s been there and his decline has been rapid. Sadly. as we speak, he’s recovering from a hip replacement operation at the age of 90 after a fall. When we’re with him, he’s almost his normal ol self and his brain is pretty good ……he knows what been going on, yet he has no control over anything!

          People these days, assume if you can’t remember any slightest detail, ohhhhh you’ve got dementia or Alzheimer’s 😱…..let’s get you committed n take your all money
          How about it’s just a sign of aging ?

          Watch a movie on Netflix with Rosamund Pike “I Care a Lot” ….. it was drawn from real life guardianship scams targeting older wealthy vulnerable people 😱
          Just beware dih52 …’s that easy ! 💕
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. Pamela Gardner says:

            Again, thank you Bubbles for your thoughts and advice. I’m a counselor and work for the state. We make no money. My things are my family though. Especially a few English antiques, paintings and prints. I am committed to not developing a brain disease and as committed to not going into a nursing home. I trust my kids to take care of things as needed. There are things they were raised with and want

          2. Pamela Brokenwolf says:

            Sorry Bubbles, Word Press cut me off… the kids have things they want. I hope they will take the rest to auction. Heart Disease kills my family off early in years. I’ve asked my five dogs to drag me up the mountain behind our house and bury me like a bone. They said, “gotcha ya covered, no worries momma!”

  10. doginheaven52 says:

    I felt sorry for him at first, then guilty, then angry, then obliging. I play this game with myself. Taking his number out of my phone, blocking him, unblocking him, waiting. Knowing he is fucking somebody else but still like a loyal dog holding out that he will think of me, that who he is with now will evaporate. I have to go back to work on Wednesday following a two week vacation. I’m hoping he will not be there. Maybe he was able to get away for that long overdue knee replacement surgery. Maybe he found another job. He hates working for our mutual MH agency. It can be hard seeing him. When I don’t stop by his office, he has routinely come to mine. I sent him a number of long rambling text and heard nothing back. He actually never responds to my text unless it is about sex. And I’m sure he sends out a group text that my name is included. He could be blocking me, I would never know. If I could leave my job I would, but at sixty-eight, another job may not be there. If I am successfully able to break the connection and maintain no contact, he will treat me terribly at work. Our colleagues will notice. He can be incredibly sarcastic, devaluing and cruel. I think I’m trying to prepare myself for this. I know I can’t keep going on for much longer. My dignity has been tanked.

    1. Bubbles says:

      Dearest doginheaven52,
      You can take control of your thoughts and you can take control over your next course of action
      Self doubt is our no 1 enemy … take the next step lovely, block him for good personally n socially and ignore his treatment of you at work as best you can ….(I would be saying “can you please leave me to get on with my work and I would appreciate you don’t speak to me like that anymore” …. the least amount of words the better…. you don’t think your colleagues will feel empathy for you if he bullies you ? ….. you bet they will! Some may actually help and come to your aid.

      Loyal dogs don’t deserve abuse and sadly, usually have no exit …. you are not a dog, you are decent kind loving human being and are capable of implementing a plan of action for self worth, respect n regaining your dignity

      Why on earth would you still care what this low life piece of garbage thinks about you ….. I’d be more concerned he has an STD …. stuff him ! Stop wasting your life on him and blocking it out from others!
      We are always hesitant of the unknown, but in your case you have more to gain than lose !
      You don’t need all this crap at this stage in your life ….. you should be happy
      Don’t feel intimidated by him, that’s what they thrive on …now’s the time to to get yourself back on track lovely …time to retank! Do not for one moment think you are not worthy
      Best wishes on your endeavour precious …… can do this 💕
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. doginheaven52 says:

        Thank you dear Bubbles for your kind, support, and loving reply. I surely needed to read it this morning.

        I haven’t been able to tell anyone about this connection and it has been a lonely and dark path walking alone. So grateful for this blog, YouTube and HG Tudor’s books.

        Have been attempting to shake this relationship since we met almost three years ago. I knew at the beginning he was narcissistic but recklessly threw caution out the window. I have a long history of seeking intensity vs. intimacy then acting with impulsiveness and compulsion. I had settled down a little in my marriage of thirty years to my late husband, but when he died the patterns loudly returned and now I have found myself in this chaotic entanglement… ensnarement. This man is so much like my alcoholic, borderline mother. With supportive words like you gave to me, I have hope and knowledge, I don’t have to sort it out alone. Paws crossed as I return to work tomorrow…

        1. doginheaven52 says:

          With great gratitude and love to you dear Bubbles
          Pamela Brokenwolf, aka doginheaven52

        2. Bubbles says:

          Dearest doginheaven52,
          I’m glad I can be of some support, I hope it helps a little!
          No one should walk a lonely dark path precious ….. there is always someone willing to to help and there is always a way out ……sometimes we just need to reach out …’s not a sign of weakness … it’s a show of strength lovely one

          Intensity, impulsiveness and compulsion is a disasterous combination for an empath seeking a long term healthy relationship ….. it works for the narc beautifully, but all it produces is ‘chaos’ for us …..narcs are just another name for abuse!!!!

          With regard to work, I would have my paws crossed but slightly exposing my beautifully manicured red polished painted claw tips haha ….. tell him firmly (but politely) to go annoy someone else, conversation is terminated (unless work related) and your door is now permanently closed for good
          Just by your first comment dih52 … you are seeking an out ….you’ve had enough, that’s why we are all here right ??? Be very conscious about ‘your needs’ and why you’re doing this ….let it not be a waste !
          It’s time to care n love yourself, as much as you care n love your animals gorgeous one !!!!
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          Ps Mr Bubbles is nothing like my mother (I could think of nothing worse, ewwww ) I would dread the thought !!!! haha

          1. doginheaven52 says:

            Hmmm … you are absolutely right Bubbles. I’m not sure what direction I’m going in except I want to eventually be free of this entanglement. I’ve been in recovery from drug and alcohol addiction for forty years. My childhood was insane, like so many. I’ve never known any other type of relationship option other than “empath” and “narcissist.” My late husband was a narcissist. My ex-husband was a narcissist. My mother and father were both narcissists, Except my mother had incredible borderline and narcissistic traits. And I’m afraid my daughter takes after me. Living with my family was like living in a pinball machine of insanity. The risk taking, intrigue, intermittent affection….are like a flame to me. The other big thing I have been struggling with that accompanies my addiction to narcissism and my own narcissism… is aging. I have been using seduction since adolescence, maybe childhood to survive. My mother was a prostitute so learned seduction from her. I kept this contained as much as I could. I did not want to end up like my mother and did not get involved with prostitution but felt like that was the deal in my second marriage. I am sixty-eight but when I look in the mirror, when I think about life, when I emote… it feels like I am still in my mid-thirties and someone has put a laughable, terrible spell on me. My ability to set boundaries is weakening as I go along also. I worry about this. At least I’m not bringing as many dogs on death row home. I have been successful in stopping this. But I remain loyal to stopping the dog and cat meat markets in the world as well as slaughter of animals in general. My empathy witnesses the absolute deplorableness of humankind. I couldn’t stop working to stop this volunteer work even if I wanted to. I think activism is why I came here from someplace in the Universe.

            I can say this…that since I’ve been blogging and listening to HG, and journaling more, I no longer cry as much as I used to. I have joked about getting a lobotomy to cure my obsessional thinking. Of these three (Intensity, impulsiveness and compulsion) it is obsessiveness that drives them all, has always driven them. It doesn’t matter if it is alcohol, chocolate cake, cereal, a man, saving a dog, stopping slaughter, completing a project, learning a new skill… I can obsess over it until it is completed or has ended.

            I know I’m here to hear the stories of others. With alcohol it was identifying with speakers at AA meetings that helped me not relapse and to become free of this catastrophe of alcoholism and drug addiction. It is the “right identification.” I listen for that in HG’s stories and look for it in the blogs. This is the best I have been in three years.

            And I also have attended Sex, Love, Addicts Anonymous to hear more stories. I’m trying to take this obsession with this man to the 12 Steps. Trying to live in the current moment and trying not to relapse with sex, discouragement, depression, doubt, doom with him. Now that COVID is taking a big break from us, I plan to get out and meet more people.

            I’m taking your advice at work. He came by very early which is unusual. He did not flirt, it was all business. Questions he had since I had been on vacation. Then he left quickly. . He hasn’t texted me in two weeks. It has been over six months that we have actually been together. We had been meeting for kissing and that has decreased significantly as well. I have been placed on the shelf in a somewhat haphazard way for months. I really believe that he is planning a permanent disengagement, just don’t know when. I am not texting, not going to his office and keeping my door closed with the out sign on as much as I can without alerting my supervisor. I really got wordy here. I apologize. But all this is what is happening now… with me.

            Thank you again dearest Bubbles for helping me sort more out. I will check in again. It is just taking time for me. It was the same way with my use of alcohol and drugs. I slipped and slid for a couple of years once identifying the problem. But then I hit bottom with an incident and decided I was not going to pick up again. And I’ve been clean from alcohol and drugs for a long time. Addiction to a human being and the emotional thinking that goes with it is a whole different ball game and a lot harder than withdrawal from substances at least it has been for me.
            Blessing and much, much gratitude,
            Luv, doginheaven 52 xx

          2. Bubbles says:

            Dearest doginheaven52,
            Wow ohhhhh wow ohhhhhh wow!!!!! No need to apologise at all beautiful lady, thank you sooo much for sharing, I hope that was cathartic for you, you’d be amazed how much it truly helps others ?
            (I’ve had addictions throughout my life, you’re not alone there ….being here put things into perspective and helped with many answers)

            I’m in complete awe of your strength n courage and your achievements so far and the tenacity in redirecting your life, considering all the many obstacles you’ve had to endure to find your way here!

            Recognising, restructuring your thought process and taking charge, are massive steps we empaths struggle with and have to work that much harder in order to achieve our goals and overcome our long endured abuse

            You …..precious lady, have come sooooo far …… all the good you have done and are continuing to do is reward in itself, plus more. Do you realise thats no mean feat what you have achieved ?

            The fact you are paying it forward to others along with your beloved furry friends, is your purpose in life precious one ….. no one said love comes only from humans …… your greatest loves are from your animals…..the ones who don’t have a voice ….. you are their voice ! 👏
            Congratulations dih52 and thank you, you’re doing amazingly
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

            Ps … mother had a revolving door of men when I was young …..soooo many uncles …. they didn’t give her an hourly fee per se, but they did pay the rent n sundry ! When I was young, I thought sex meant someone loved you …..boy was I wrong! Now she’s an absolute prude and sex is an ugly word. Go figure!

          3. doginheaven52 says:

            Dearest Bubbles,

            You know what I’m in awe of? Is your beautiful compassion, connection, empathy, understanding, acceptance, love of lost people like me.

            You remind me of a statue I learned about that was in front of Elizabeth Kubler Ross’s house. It was of an Angel holding a person who obviously was dying.

            The Angel had one arm under their upper torso supporting them upward and one cradling their face close to their own. The Angel possessed the most compassionate, loving, graceful smile adoring the fully human sized scaled statue where facial features had been purposely blurred by the artist. Yet the compassion radiates beyond the stone and the infinite. That is what your acceptance reminds me of.

            I don’t consider myself a Christian type believer. But I love Christ because we were both born bastards and I imagine to be partners in some kind of mystery. One day I also realized that Jesus had both a “prostitute” and “divinity” at the base of his cross. Two thousand years ago, I think more was known then we will know for many generations to come. I have come to know though, for me, prostitution and divinity are… one.

            With the US in the turmoil and potential anarchy we are facing and my addiction and “love for a person who will never get it,” besides feeling like Etheridge, “Feeling Fucked Up,” I also feel like the Bob Dylan song, “Everything is Broken.” One foot in front of the other. Sometimes all that is needed is simply showing up. Many, many blessings always and returning the kind of love and hope to you as you give to others.
            In friendship, doginheven52

          4. doginheaven52 says:

            Post Note Bubbles: Just thinking in last response “both born bastards and I imagine to be partners in some kind of mystery” — that this kind of sounds like a grandiose sense of self-importance (running with Jesus) Preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited ideal love, (this is the way I want to be loved by friend), has a sense of entitlement… I mean why not if I feel some kind of way about Jesus? It wasn’t meant to come across that way or, maybe it actually was streaming live from my unconscious where my imagination and beasties rest?

        3. Bubbles says:

          Dearest doginheaven52,
          I’m completely lost for words for your most endearing perception of me, I’m ever so humbled lovely
          I grew up never feeling good enough or worthy of myself, yet I ‘feel’ it for others ….must be the empath in me hehe
          I really only started to accept myself coming here
          I don’t want others to think it’s all been for nothing because it’s not
          Whether it be a human or an animal, what reassurance to know another human was a comfort on your side who truly cared and hopefully made a difference, whether it be big or small
          Compassion n kindness cost nothing, but to me is worth everything
          Thank you kindly dih52….angel hugs to you 🤗
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

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