The Ultra Narcissist met his victim in a club.

She agreed to head home with him.

How did they both get what they wanted and needed?

Understand the power dynamic between the two.



176 thoughts on “Spanked

  1. Survived a Sociopath says:

    I entered two comments days ago and they still have not shown up. How long does it take for comments to get approved on here?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Read the rules.

  2. Chihuahuamum says:

    We decided to not spank our kids. I don’t believe in hitting to discapline, but it’s a personal choice as a parent.
    One funny memory as a child was my mother getting angry at my brother and I. She was chasing us with a wooden spoon and broke it on my brother. It didn’t hurt and we burst out laughing. This made her fly into a rage. We ran into the bedroom and I remember her not knowing what to do she was so flustered. After that we never got spankings as we were getting older.

    1. Witch says:

      My mum used to chase us with the wooden spoon as well
      I remember when she thought I broke something of hers, which I didn’t (wouldn’t surprise me if it was my narcissist sister letting me be blamed for it) I was jumping from one sofa to the next trying to avoid the licks from the wooden spoon. She also stopped doing that as we got older, minus 2 occasions where she slapped me across the face as a teenager

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi Witch…I dreaded spankings moreso from humiliation. I’ve never hit my kids ever. Sorry your mum slapped you that’s so degrading.

  3. Chihuahuamum says:

    Re the topic of spanking…i remember as a child we would go camping with my dad’s friends and their families and friends. This one friend of his who was always a bachelor had a girlfriend at the time. She reminded me of the singer Blonde. She had to always look perfect and have her hair done and makeup just so. She was a bit of a snob. I have no idea why she was with him because he was a rough around the edges type guy. One evening she had too much to drink and was acting so annoying. I was embaressed for her and I was very young at the time around 9 years old. It was very alarming because she was usually prim and proper. She made a complete spectacle of herself. He had had enough and spanked her in front of everyone. She was so upset and humiliated. I think they broke up after that. I was a child at the time, but I renember feeling so sad for her. She was overbearing, but what he did was abusive physically and emotionally. He was a lifelong family friend of my dad’s and my grandparents. He never married and I can see why. He was a narcissist.

    1. MP says:

      Cmum, Wow I agree, he sounds like a total narcissist!

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi MP…It’s funny how as a child your limited knowledge makes the world around you so different. This man was thought of as a harmless good time friend who was always at family gatherings and celebrations. He many times sat at my grandparents kitchen table for hours shooting the breeze. He was my grandpas drinking buddy. His girlfriends never stuck around for long. As an adult and tudorite i can now see him for what he was. He was what i suspect a narcissist.
        To openly spank a woman in a nonconsentual way with an audience is physical abuse. I remember the next morning the camping party was quiet and there hung a thick awkwardness among everyone. If i remember that was the day we all packed up and left. She wouldn’t come out of the trailer out of sheer humiliation. When she did her eyes were puffy from crying. I think she had drove with him so possibly she couldn’t leave. She had a son about my age and thank god he wasn’t there to witness it. As a female i remember feeling a sense of deep shame over the whole thing. I realized it wasn’t out of fun or a joke. He was humuliating her physically around their friends ughhh awful memory. It is good to know now many years later what he was.

        1. MP says:

          Hi CM, I agree with you how amazing it can be when things come to life in a different way after our awareness about narcissism. I had many experiences like that too. Things that didn’t make sense but I just ignored I then remember and it makes complete sense now. I feel bad about the woman, hopefully she was able to be in healthy relationships after that, especially for her son’s sake. I also see how you already had strong empathy at that age feeling shame for her as a fellow woman.

          1. Chihuahuamum says:

            Hi MP…I did empathize with her, but at the same time my mum’s opinion was gospel and i had wondered if her behavior maybe deserved it. In my heart i knew it was wrong, but as a child you don’t think things through as far as what that makes the people around you. This man was just an accepted part of the family. If i met him now i’d have nothing but disgust for him.
            My mum’s opinions are nothing to me in fact whatever she’s in support of i automatically question because i more than likely wouldn’t agree.

    2. JB says:

      What a weird thing to do, and especially in front of everybody! This bloke was a lifelong friend of your dad’s..what did your dad say about it all, Chihuahuamum?

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi JB…i replied, but i’m not sure it went through. I’ll wait before sending again.

        1. JB says:

          Yeah don’t think it went through, Cmum!

      2. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi JB…I posted a reply, but i don’t think it went through. Basically my dad had sketchy friends. His reaction i dkn’t remember, but given his sadistic side i suspect he would’ve laughed and said she deserved it. He didn’t and probably still doesn’t have respect for women. He does treat me well as an adult. Maybe he’s changed a bit over the years i’m not sure.
        This friend of his was a womanizer and loved to drink. I don’t think he ever married. He was a fixture in our family and always there for family celebrations or visiting. Looking back what he did to that woman was disgusting. He’s lucky she didn’t press charges. This was back in the mid 80s id say so it was a lot different.

        1. JB says:

          Cmum, it is disgusting. Induced more of a strong response in me than if you had told me that he had punched her, for some reason. Obviously both are completely unacceptable, but this is just so degrading. I guess re. pressing charges it would have been hard to prove anything ever happened, irrespective of era, unless the others had been prepared to say what they saw..

          1. Chihuahuamum says:

            Hi JB…I know i look at it as i would rape. It was against her will AND done in front of others. Much of it i don’t remember given my age at the time, but i do remember the women in the group having mixed feelings. My narc mother didn’t feel much sympathy for her and thought she deserved it for making a spectle of herself and getting so drunk. There was an awkward feeling and she hid in the trailer for the rest of the evening and next morning until everyone packed up and left the campground. Im pretty sure they broke up after. I had run into her in later years, but she never let on she knew me or possibly forgot who i was. I found it odd how she hooked up with him because she was so different. He was a drinker and womanizer sort while she was peticular and i’d say somatic in nature. She was about perfection and came off as a snob. I remember the other mums talking about her behind her back saying she wasn’t the camping type and needed her hair curler and makeup along with a heated shower.
            It was meant to degrade her and a corrective devalument for showing him up in front of everyone.

          2. A Victor says:

            I agree JB, just disgusting. That would’ve been so strange to see happen, like one of those things your eyes see but your brain rejects at first, especially as a child.

            Chihauhaumum, I hope that you had someone to talk to about it. That sense of shame and no one helping that woman would’ve been so awful for a child to deal with, not to mention confusing like, why isn’t anyone stopping this? Makes me shudder. I have read it multiple times and the full impact finally hit me tonight.

        2. JB says:

          Oh God, Cmum, it makes me feel really riled, reading that the other women had mixed feelings about it! How can a woman stand by and watch another woman endure that without being repulsed by the whole spectacle? I completely agree with you about it being on a par with rape. There is just something about it that disgusts me, totally disgusts me.

          I agree with you too, AV. It makes you shudder. And the idea that you were watching that, Cmum, as a child, potentially confused and not knowing what was going whole body is fighting against that..just want to go back in time and rescue you! I have no idea why this particular incident gets to me so much, but it does xx

          1. Chihuahuamum says:

            Hi JB… Thank you although i never really reflected as much on it than i am now. I do think our past moulds us in different ways. Looking back many of those women were questionable. I say this because i look back at the types of men they were with and wonder how they had respect for them or stayed with them. Many of the men were sexist and had little respect for women or at least that’s how it looks. I didn’t know them first hand. I did see how they drank and were crude.
            I think i compartmentalized a lot of what i had seen, but also filtered out maybe what i didn’t fully understand.
            I never liked men that were gruff and obnoxious. I think it helped me avoid those types, which was a good thing!
            I hope she found a man that treated her right, but she may have had issues of her own. Her son was around my age and was a nice kid.
            I can see why narcissists are formed. When you witness a lot of toxicity and are abused compartmentalization is your self preservation. I think narcissists are the ultimate compartmentalists. They can hide memories well and reinvent themselves to be someone else.

          2. JB says:

            Cmum, I’m with you on the not liking gruff men! Think I would run a mile around someone like that!

  4. TheVimtoSlut says:

    It’s been fucking ages since I’ve had a good OTK. Years.

    The picture is seriously hot and yes, I have listened to ‘spanked.

    I’m not listening again though, that would seriously wind me up! 🙂

  5. Chihuahuamum says:

    One day ill read this. Too many triggers right now. The narc likes to roll play. I do enjoy it although it is a tactic for control. Sex is a powerful tool to seduce. Im able to detach somewhat from this. I understand the potency of it now. Were very similiar sexually or maybe thats the mirroring lol The early stages were very sexually motivated. What i loved is the ability to be myself no inhibitions. This has been freeing, but i also realize it’s not authentic. It’s a mix of control, manipulation and needs. I’ve learned to be less affected by it. Before i attached the L word to sex now i no longer do. I realize there is no authentic love with him and i don’t take it to heart because i understand he’s not capable of this. There’s no longer the fantasy aspect attached. No pipe dreams. It’s not as built up and i feel way more grounded and safe with the reality of it.The potency is gone and it feels good in saying that.

    1. SParham says:

      Detachment and not connecting the L word, I’ve done the same 👍🏼👍🏼
      I heard HG say that it’s mechanical and I believe it to be true.

      1. A Victor says:

        I could not separate the L word which made it more painful got my heart. And more confusing. It was so mechanical, that’s what was so confusing, and hurtful, no actual emotion or connection or even enjoyment, he wasn’t capable of those things but I didn’t know it yet.

  6. lickemtomorrow says:

    In this case the victim doesn’t need to be an empath, if we go by the description.

    She might be.

    The same power dynamic could be applied between narcissists, could it not?

    Either way, he doesn’t really look like he’s going to give her a good spanking.

    1. Asp Emp says:

      LET, good to read your perception on this. Made me giggle though 🙂

    2. A Victor says:

      This picture and audio brought out strong emotions in me for the reason of having been “spanked” brutally as a child and also my sister experienced this at the hand of a boyfriend, she did not want it, as this girl apparently does. It was a horrible thing to go through, getting her away from this man. The audio did bring home for me the cold heartedness of the narcissist though, in a very real and ugly manner. Your final sentence would hinge on your definition of “good”.

      1. Eternity says:

        A Victor, I have listened to this audio myself and found it rather interesting. It did sound mutual between both parties . I can understand why you felt this way it brought back memories to you as child. I am so sorry for what you went through it must have been devastating. I encourage you not to listen to it if it disturbs you.

        1. A Victor says:

          Thank you Eternity. I have listened a second time and didn’t find it as horrible. It really displayed to me the cold heartedness of the narcissist. Though there were not sexual overtones when I was a child, that situation and this one both display the utter lack of empathy toward the victim. A person with empathy would possibly see the young woman as a previous victim of abuse and, rather than exploit that for fuel as a narc would, would possibly be more prone to want to help her come to terms with her past. She may still want this even then, I have no idea how such a thing would work, but I can’t see someone with empathy just exploiting her in this way. Thank you for your view, reading the various ways people think about this do help me to process it.

          1. Eternity says:

            A Victor,
            I definitely see your point. I have never just gone home with someone I just met. In terms of HG’s victim it was something she wanted the Addiction and dominance
            pulled her into that direction. I can understand why she did that .
            It is always a pleasure talking with you A Victor .

          2. A Victor says:

            I used to go home with someone, or take them home, back between my marriages. I always believed I was in control of those situations and never worried, haha! It wasn’t frequent but it was dangerous, you never know what you’ll end up with! There must have been some way he knew she wanted this, when I did this it was never brought up, maybe I never met a narc in those instances. Or maybe they can pick up on what we’ll like thus more fuel for them.

            It is always a pleasure talking with you too Eternity!

          3. Eternity says:

            A Victor , that was very brave and daring of you .I was faithful and never cheated in my 24 years of marriage. See you did do dangerous things and FEAR didn’t take over . Perfect example!
            They can definitely sniff us out.

          4. A Victor says:

            Well, I only cheated with one person, the rest were between husbands. Lol, I feel the need to clarify, like the mom in Mamma Mia, “And I didn’t sleep with hundreds of men…” or something to that effect. Yes, no fear because I was too naive to know better! 🙂

          5. Eternity says:

            It’s OK A Victor no need to clarify. Hey no one is perfect. Besides it happened maybe even for the best .

          6. A Victor says:

            Yes, I learned a lot from it.

          7. Eternity says:

            You definitely have A Victor. Thanks God we were brought here.

      2. lickemtomorrow says:

        I imagine in the context of a consensual spanking, the hand might come back further and look to be getting ready to give a good hard ‘smack’, AV. For the purposes of the article that’s what I would call a ‘good’ spanking.

        As a child, no spanking is a good spanking 🙁 Nor as an adult in any kind of non-consensual situation, which I’m guessing was your sister’s experience. Good to know she finally got away from him. I’m still trying to get my head around those who enjoy this king of thing in a consensual manner. And yet I can see how it might be alluring to some. Especially in the context of the narcissistic relationship. All the ingredients would need to be there in order to succumb to this, but a submissive empath (e.g. CoD) combined with a dominant narcissist (aren’t they all?) could fit the bill.

        I may need to listen to the audio again.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          *kind (ugh)

        2. A Victor says:

          Oh haha, yes, he looks like it will be a tap, in the photo, I see what you mean. When listening, it is a ‘good’ spanking per your definition.

          I have listened again, a couple of weeks ago, and it didn’t disturb me as much, now it’s more interesting from the perspective that this is what narcissists will do if it’s what is required by the partner, for the best extraction of the prime aims in the Golden Period. And the narcissist has no care one way or the other, although he was drawn to her, he could see she offered the prime aims. So to best obtain them from her, this is what he ‘had’ to do. It also makes me wonder if there are a lot of empaths for whom this is true since there was clearly an element of having practiced it. The Dark Cupid series gives many other examples of extracting in different ways so I guess we’re all a bit different, not surprising. I had never considered certain things from a sexual perspective before arriving here, until last summer when the summer narc said a few things that shocked me. This whole experience had certainly been an eye opener. I have mentioned that my ex was exceedingly boring.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, I think that’s what I was aiming at in terms of the image and the actual audio/article. It would be like an “is that it?” moment for me 😛

            I do wonder, with you mentioning the Golden Period, if this is more akin to a period of devaluation – as in there is a humiliation factor to this, whether consensual or not. Perhaps it depends of the partner’s willingness to engage. But she seems very vulnerable to me.

            The daddy issues, the scars from cutting, her outward demeanour hiding the vulnerable child inside. The narcissist has indeed targeted her for her vulnerability, with a likely reward of huge amounts of gushing fuel for him coming from the ability to control her and have her meet his needs. Which in this case is clearly a misogynistic need to ‘punish’ her. Her need is to be punished, as per her childhood experience. At least that’s my take on the dynamic.

            I wonder, too, how many empaths would engage and she doesn’t appear to be new to the experience. But she does appear to be broken – as in she’s coming from a damaged background. So, not a position of empowerment is probably what I’m trying to say. Where some people may choose it, I feel that she is compelled to do it. All part of the addiction if she is an empath.

            Does having daddy issues mean she is an empath? Question for HG, please.

            I can see how that summer narc might have drawn you in after the experience you had with your husband, AV. You’ve described him as exciting before, and that seems to be part of it. The fact you were shocked says you hadn’t been exposed to his kind of thinking before. And it is interesting to encounter Dark Cupid in terms of seeing how dark it can really get. I think you were as well to avoid the summer narc by all accounts in terms of an in person meeting. Although, there’s a possibility he may have been more alluring at a distance. But, I imagine you’re glad now you never got a chance to find out!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            It is not determinative that she is an empath.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you for the response, HG.

            That fact of underlying original abuse doesn’t make it a given that she’s an empath, even though we may feel empathy for her. That is a trap I think empaths can fall into at times. Which probably coloured my first reading of this article. Being submissive or needy doesn’t necessarily mean empathic, though empaths can also appear this way. I’m guessing her apparent vulnerability is what attracts the narcissist, in terms of reading the situation and in order to gain fuel. For some reason we can also fall into the trap of thinking narcissists only seek out empaths. And though we can provide the biggest fuel load in many respects, that does not discount narcissists from taking advantage of their own kind. For some reason I feel this is important to grasp right now as shades of grey begin to appear on the narcissistic horizon. Empaths are known to take things at face value and you give us reason to dig a little deeper at times. This was one of those times for me.

          4. A Victor says:

            LET, I have googled Daddy Issues. Apparently I do have them, given the definitions on a couple of sites there. And they’re not necessarily sexual, more attachment issue type things. I am now curious to know if HG’s definition is similar or more specific. One of the things that did seem to be true is that it can indicate codependency, though I am not certain how closely other definitions of codependency align with HG’s definition, it could be that by their standard, I am a co-d when in HG’s I am not. Who knows.

            Also, to clarify, 2nd line, 3rd paragraph should read “if” she is a CoD, not because she is. It is interesting to me how I can see these things after the fact, looking through the eyes of someone else reading. When it comes out of my mind, I know what else is in there with it but the next reader does not. It’s a lesson in communication I suppose. Ttyl.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Briefly :-

            “Daddy Issues” in the empath is a form of special trait which is a vulnerability that we, the narcissists will use (consciously or unconsciously) against you in order to achieve the Prime Aims. It manifests from a narcissist father having denied you emotional empathy (in various forms) causing you to want to achieve that in terms of validation, support and recognition from a respected authority figure.
            “Daddy Issues” in the narcissist is a particular sensitivity to the loss of control relating to treatment by a male, authority figure stemming from the absence of control experienced when the individual was a child and their narcissism formed. Where an older, male authority figure threatens the female narcissist’s control it is magnified in terms of wounding or challenge. Furthermore, the female narcissist will look to assert control (generally in a passive aggressive manner) towards that older, male authority figure.

          6. A Victor says:

            Oh wow! Thank you!! This is an amazing answer to receive!! It has made my day, happy dancing!!! LET, this confirms, in my mind, my suspicion of her being an empath!! And, sadly, I guess I do have daddy issues. Ugh. Mommy issues too. Ugh. Thank you HG!

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            That is a very helpful explanation and there is a clear difference between the two.

            It also makes complete sense. In terms of the assertion of control.

            I don’t know if I have “Daddy issues”, but I know I am CoD in nature.

            What are some of the other special traits? I can’t remember if you have written any articles on those, HG.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            See Sitting Target

          9. lickemtomorrow says:

            I have read Sitting Target, so think it’s in my library and will definitely take another look.

            We try to take in so much from the time we arrive here, it’s like we gorge ourselves on the information and forget to savour some of it 🙂

          10. Asp Emp says:

            LET, if you have not seen ‘Sitting Target’ book, it is worth obtaining. It gives so much insight where the special traits are concerned.

          11. lickemtomorrow says:

            Yes, I have it, AspEmp. I have reread Fury over the weekend and now I will reread Sitting Target. I don’t often go back over them, but am being prompted lately to do so, and realize how at the same time I have missed so much by being ravenous with my reading at the start. And I haven’t read all of HGs work by far … I’ve some purchased which I haven’t yet read. Now I’m rereading books! There is such a body of work, I’m going to have to knuckle down with some of it and get it done. The rereading highlights different aspects, too, so imagine how much time could be spent just drawing all the wisdom from this work? And it’s so easy to read. And enjoyable. At least in the sense of the writing. The reality of narcissism is what probably holds me back sometimes. I just don’t want to confront it again some days. I want to leave it alone and I want it to leave me alone. But it’s always lingering. And the need to understand just keeps growing.

            I will come back if I find anything more to add to this thread after reading x

          12. Asp Emp says:

            LET, it is good that you have the book already. Yes, I think we all get immersed in HG’s work and his words……hmmmm. Re-reading does give the opportunity to understand ‘aspects’ that were not ‘registered’ within the brain the first time around, especially when ET / LT out of sync. That is what I found. Looking forward to your ‘return’ to this when you are ready 🙂

          13. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hey AspEmp, yes it was in my library and I’ve started reading it again. Should get it read within the next 24, and rereading does tend to mean something different or something more will register each time round. Good point about the ET/LT being out of sync. I purchased this one over a year ago so likely my ET was still quite high (i.e. through the roof!) Thanks for your response and I will be back with any further thoughts 🙂

          14. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you for your response. Yeah, my ET was sky high last year and my LT was pretty fkd really…..all’s well now, I think 😉 (laughing)

          15. lickemtomorrow says:

            I feel like we’ve all come along leaps and bounds since then, AspEmp, and good to know all’s well <3

          16. Asp Emp says:

            LET, it certainly was hell of a journey though! 🙂

          17. lickemtomorrow says:

            I didn’t read that back, so hopefully no editing required!

          18. Asp Emp says:

            LET….”I didn’t read that back, so hopefully no editing required!”….bit late now 😉

          19. lickemtomorrow says:

            Haha, AspEmp, just thought I’d better qualify in case it did need an edit 😛 Thankfully not!

          20. Asp Emp says:

            LET, laughing…..

          21. Asp Emp says:

            HG, thank you for writing that comment. It explains a lot to those that needed further clarification in regard to ‘daddy issues’. So, by simply reversing the roles, from ‘daddy’ to ‘mother’, I suppose the same principles would apply? I did read ‘Sitting Target’ – brilliant book by the way.

          22. A Victor says:

            Oh geez, this explains my flirting, so much. This is why missing a call freaked me out. This explains why it is only narc’s that I’ve flirted with, I think I pass authority right over to them, they seem so capable and are so willing to take it. Oh geez, I have got to learn how to move past this, to close up this vulnerability.

          23. lickemtomorrow says:

            I’m going to have to google “Daddy Issues” now, too, AV. Just out of curiosity.

            Interesting it’s a special trait. And how it’s perceived by some others to have a link to CoD.

            I totally get the thing of knowing what is in your own mind, too, and somehow that not translating to the page. It can take several goes round sometimes, but hopefully we get there in the end.

          24. HG Tudor says:

            You have no need, I have explained it for you.

          25. lickemtomorrow says:

            You have, HG! And I accept your explanation as the definitive one. I’ll bet no one else thought of the narcissistic dynamic and assertion of control. They love to focus on the vulnerability of the CoD as the victim variety. They never think there might be another perspective to take – a narcissistic one. Both can have “Daddy issues”, and both will have their own unique response. Excellent, as always.

          26. A Victor says:

            LET, I think any of HG’s defined empaths can have daddy issues, not only CoD’s. I do, according to all the definitions and specifically HG’s, and I am not one. I just saw in the definition apart from HG some of the CoD elements, but I don’t think they differentiate because they would not speak in terms of Schools and Cadres as HG does.

          27. lickemtomorrow says:

            Good point, AV, and thanks for the further clarfication re: your own EDC. I can see how with HGs categorizations this would be regarded as as “special trait” and therefore be applicable to all variety of empaths and not just CoD’s.

          28. A Victor says:

            Hi LET, thank you for your reply, I didn’t see it until today, not sure when it was published but I apologize for the delayed response.

            Haha, “Is that it?” Very funny! I used to do that to my mom, out of some horrible twisted rebellion, always a mistake! But here, very funny!

            I feel she is very vulnerable also, I believe she is an empath and a CoD one also. I saw somewhere that HG has previously stated she has Geyser qualities, not sure if actual Geyser. But I believe that, because she is a CoD, she needs this to feel the connection, and he could see it, that this was her need. This in turn meets his need. It is interesting, from that starting point, how does devaluation look? I would assume it became quite brutal, but she was not an IPPS that I know of so therefore, her GP would last for quite a while. I remember seeing somewhere that this relationship went on for at least several months and I believe there has been more since then, on occasion. This is all extrapolated from comments here and there, nothing concrete. Anyway, we know HG hoovers, so there is that. Sadly, on a different thread, I have been talking about my willingness to engage in risky behaviors, as a young empath, I feel lucky not to have met up with someone like this back then, it might have changed my life in a way I would’ve regretted now. Or not, since I don’t think I have Daddy Issues. I do need to learn more about those I think, what they actually are. I agree, this young woman seems to be compelled, hence my thinking CoD, I find it devastatingly sad.

            The summer narc did shock me, you are correct in your assumptions about that. DC has been very helpful for me in many ways around all of this. I feel like now there are choices, I get to choose, not the narcs, because I will not be with a narc, and a normal or empath will want to know my choices. And I his. Yes, very glad to have not met the summer narc, he spoke of “smacking” all the time, it was a conversation, it made me giggle a lot once he “reassured” me he understood the difference between fun and abuse, asshole. Anyway, thank you for talking this out with me a bit, it is a thing. 🙂

          29. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi AV, thanks for your reply. I had forgotten I asked the question, but I’m very glad HG has given an answer, which as I reread it is purely tied to the “Daddy issues” aspect and not the behaviour in general. That was my original question around the topic of the article looking back.

            Your reaction to your mother’s abuse reminds me of the movie “Good Will Hunting” which is one of my all time favourites. In that movie the psychologist finally confronts Will on the abuse in his past and tells him how he suffered similar abuse. In the context of that the pyschologist says he always asked for the ‘lesser of two evils’, meaning the least hurtful instrument of punishment. Will tells the psychologist he always chose the most hurtful. The psychologist asks him why.

            “Because fuck him, that’s why!”

            Sounds like you had your own “fuck him” moment, AV. Only with your mother.

            The psychologist goes on to tell him:

            “It’s not your fault.”

            He needs to be told this many times before the words finally sink in and he ultimately breaks down. In some ways it’s a place we all need to get to in order to heal those deep inner wounds. It’s not our fault. It’s not our fault. It’s not our fault.

            I read an interesting quote in relation to narcs the other day and it was:

            “It’s not me, it’s you”

            as opposed to the BS we’re often left with in relationship endings

            “It’s not you, it’s me”

            I got that from the last narc during our first major break up. I saved myself the trouble of a response at the time. I must have known something deep down.

            But that quote sums it all up really. The blame shifting aspect of these relationships which we buy into. You have to read it a couple of times as it almost is so subtle as to not be noticed. Much like the blame shifting the narcissist does.

            Interesting you see her as a CoD. Of all the empaths I can see that as being the most likely to be victimized in this way. Especially if they have been abused as a child. Which is where the further question has been raised now for me. Not just around Daddy issues. And how we can take one of two trajectories in that situation.

            I do see her as vulnerable, but I’m not sure I see her as an empath any longer. Not sure if I saw her as an empath in the beginning, but more felt empathic for her. I hadn’t really taken on board any further dealings HG may have had with her, but the possibility of her being a narcissist also wouldn’t necessarily preclude him from taking advantage in this way. I’m assuming in a more sexual manner, and possibly as a DLS. Perhaps I’m imagining this more from the angle of her being quite exhibitionist in her behaviour on entering the Club. She wants to be noticed. But that is also part of her vulnerability. I’m a little torn on this one, truth be told. I know what a CoD nature can do to a person, and we can be chameleon, too, in our nature. We may want love, but will accept abuse if it’s all that’s being handed to us. A narcissist’s dream in that sense. We’re not going to argue. Just take us into yourself. Make us complete.

            A number of us may have engaged in risky behaviours when we were younger and before we knew any better, or discovered our true value. There is no other possibility in some ways after having been victims of abuse. In that sense we are prime targets for more. The never ending cycle until we are finally able to break free.

            I’m guessing the “smacking” the summer narc talked about was the same as “spanking”? I was only just beginning to touch on erotic themes with the last narc and we made joking references to some aspects like handcuffs and so on. In the context of what I thought was a committed relationship at the time – even though I was already in devaluation which I didn’t realize – I thought it possible to explore these things. It’s another reason for me to engage with DC as I unpack some of those thought processes which involve sex and the narcissist, the things that draw me in, and how I can become more aware of them.

            And that summer narc was an asshole 😛 You deserve so much better <3 xox

          30. A Victor says:

            LET, I was mid-reply here when HG’s answer came through, not sure if I sent it or not! I was so excited! But, now I’ve calmed down so back to business. Yes, “Fuck her!” moments, for sure. And with her, I think my Super spoke up in me quite early on. I did not accept blame for her behavior, I saw her as an anomaly and just looked forward to adulthood when I could escape from her. My dad has not been so easy, not at all. The quotes are interesting, I would need to know who was saying it before I could determine the meaning. “It’s not me, it’s you”-me to him, probably a Supernova going on!! And now I’m laughing, at a serious subject! But there were those moments!! And now they make me laugh, I was actually correct!! If he said that to me, that would’ve likely brought on a Supernova! BUT, “It’s not you, it’s me”-this, from him to me, happened once. It was a bad situation, I should’ve never spoken to him again. It did exactly as he planned, freed him up but allowed him a way back in when he was done with his dirty work. I am not laughing now. But, I also don’t think I would fall for this again, I would instead contact HG and ask him how to reply. And I’m very serious about that. I don’t know how to deal with passive aggressive stuff, not at all. Anyway, at least now I would know what it was, so that’s progress!

            As to the young woman, I know that there were times that I presented the same way in a similar circumstance, usually alcohol was involved, okay, it would’ve only been when alcohol was involved, but it happened either way. So, from personal experience, I would’ve been doing that in an attempt to not feel the insecurity I lived with. I could relate to her actually in some ways, though I did not go for older men, blech, and also would not have understood or wanted any spanking events. I would’ve run away in terror!

            Thank you for the statement that many here may have a past, I don’t feel so bad now, if what you say is true, I am in good company!

            That darn SN and his smacking, it was all over the place, as were many other things he suggested, all quite eye-opening to me!! But, now I’m curious, that’s the problem! 🤣

          31. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi AV,

            Yes, that quote “it’ not me, it’s you” is the quintessential narcissistic quote – at least in terms of blame shifting. Which is how I intended to share it, but it was a little confusing!

            My guess is when the last narc used “It’s not you, it’s me” on me he was really thinking the opposite. It’s such a bullsh*t line and a coward’s way out of dealing with the situation. So, I gave him the coward’s option without even responding. He was also “walking on eggshells”, etc. All the projections he could muster to say I was to blame, which is counter to “It’s not you, it’s me”, but somehow in his hypocritical, blame shifting, narcissistic mind he could face both ways at the same time. And likely expect me to pour out the fuel of regret, remorse, anxiety, upset, sorrow, pain, grief, torment, sadness, shame, etc. I’m so glad I stood strong that day. It was like a two finger salute to his bullsh*t, and while I cried behind closed doors, he never knew it at the time. What a shame I didn’t have grasp of the fact he was a narc when that happened. The inevitable hoovers arrived, and if I’d have known what to expect I would never have put myself through 6 more tortuous months.

            I see your ex did the same and basically left the open door, too. We think we should give them the space to resolve whatever issues they’re having and wait dutifully and diligently for the hoover, never knowing that’s what it is, and not a remorseful and apologetic return after having discovered how special we are and important to them after all. OMG, the Hollywood movies that rest on this theme … I just can’t watch them anymore. It’s too damn depressing. I just think now “that’s a lie” the narcissist uses to ensnare us. Sad to have to be in this place, but it will keep the wolf from the door.

            I could relate to her vulnerability, too, and older men are generally not my cup of tea either. My Greek God, mentioned here once before, was several years younger than me. So, I’m not feeling the “Daddy issues” aspect of this thread, and generally tended to stay within my own age group +/- 5 years or so. And no spanking!

            Yes, curiosity certainly came calling during my last relationship, but I’m not sure I’ll ever get over that line now. Time will tell.

          32. A Victor says:

            LET, when my narc said “It’s not you, it’s me.” I’m pretty sure he was thinking actually “It’s her fuel (her being the other woman)”. This is why I should have never spoken to him again. He was with her that night. We’d been together for 4 years. It came “out of the blue” to me. But, I still took him back, 4 months later. I rejected a sweet farmer for him! The farmer was not a narc, he was probably my only experience dating a possible normal, I had forgotten all about him til just now! But, he died probably 15 years later so I would’ve been a widow had that continued. Back to the ex, I didn’t want to take him back but he used my daughter, I’ve seen that here recently, maybe a YT video, that they will use children like this, it made me angry at him all over again. It was probably the most drama and passion I ever saw from him, that hoover. I was such an…unknowing empath!! I am trying to stay away from harsher terms since we really don’t get it until we know. But it makes me “feel” not too bright, to have just run right over my gut instinct and listened to that schmuck. He never even built much of a relationship with my daughter, both she and I knew it but I still overlooked this when he hoovered. Ugh. Anyway, I hadn’t written all those details before, now I can let them go, so thank you.

            No, I can’t do romance books, movies anything. They make me queasy, mostly always have. I had a couple of romantic biographies I enjoyed when I was young and Mamma Mia and As Good as it Gets are my two favorite movies. Just watched the second again, with my son. You can beat Jack Nicholson in that role! My son even liked it. But yes, that lie is just not watchable. Way too close to home.

            Yes, to your last sentence, for both of us. Do you feel cheated?? How to get away from that feeling, I need to investigate…honestly, if my morality would allow for it, I would hire someone! I know this is terrible to think but at least my curiosity would be assuaged! But, it’s also not legal, so…ugh. Said slightly in jest…haha.

          33. lickemtomorrow says:

            AV, fact: there was definitely another woman behind “It’s not you, it’s me” … I probably knew it at the time, but I couldn’t prove it. He was such a coward. Typical mid-ranger.

            How devastating, though. To know they could drop us so easily to pick up with someone else, and the only reason they look back is because at some point her fuel becomes stale to them as well. Or infrequent. Or not potent enough. I guess if it’s ‘new’ it’s always going to be more potent. We’re in a no win situation in that sense.

            It’s funny, my experience came out of the blue, too, though I read the signs right immediately prior to that. I brought my concerns up with him and cue the disengagement. Two days and a silent treatment later he dropped the bomb. Ha! He never got the satisfaction of the explosion. It’s like his fuse fizzled out 😛 I’m kind of enjoying the thought of that right now! Payback.

            I’m sorry to hear about the farmer. He sounds like he would have been a good guy, and I imagine there are plenty of us who have turned down someone truly worthwhile for the piece of garbage we ended up with. I understand now that is all about our addiction. And I can look at my friends and the successful marriages they have made and not have to wonder any more “Why couldn’t I do that?” I couldn’t do it because I was an ACON, and a scapegoat child, a CoD empath who knew no better than to attach to a narcissist in the deadly dance that narcissism creates. I’m so relieved to know that now. It’s so easy for us to feel like failures.

            And the manipulations they will use in that dance, such as finding a way back in via your daughter, are typical of them as well. Whatever it takes. We hate to think of it now, but our addiction plus their manipulations causes us to do things we would likely never do once the scales are taken off our eyes. At least that’s what we hope. I’m going to have to learn to trust myself at some point to have learned the lesson, but I’m not there yet. There are regular reminders, here and elsewhere, about how addictive the narcissist can be and how vulnerable I am to their wiles.

            I like this line:

            “I was such an … unknowing empath!”

            Weren’t we all? xox

            I haven’t seen that Jack Nicholson movie you mentioned, or Mama Mia for that matter 😉 But, I’ll have to keep them in mind if I’m ever in the mood. I love that you watch movies with your son, and the two of you can enjoy that opportunity to share the experience and likely discuss those things together. You obviously have a very close relationship with him and he will benefit so much from that <3

            Lol to the last sentence, AV 😉 Do I feel cheated? Yes and no. I felt cheated that I had that conversation, even in a joking manner, with the last narc and built things up in my imagination enough to actually believe it could go there – as in, we had become so close and built up so much trust we could begin discussing these things. I have to wonder if it was a form of future faking – "Let's try this" – which was never going to come to fruition, or if he simply found something shiny and new which distracted him from ever taking it any further. Anyway, I think I feel more cheated of the closeness. And the trust. The sex is an added bonus to me. Without those other things he wouldn't get near me. So cheated is a good word. And in the sense you're using it, I definitely would have found it enjoyable to experiment, my only qualifier being it would have to be with the right person – i.e. not a narc!

            Another lol to the idea of hiring someone 😉 There's definitely a more cheeky side to you, AV, and a more expressive side, too. We want to open ourselves up to experiences, especially as we move out of our narc-imposed prisons, and if not for the need for the other things already mentioned it would certainly be tempting! I was shocked the first time I came across a documentary about a man whose wife "hired him out" – he was basically a prostitute – for sexual encounters with women. One woman booked him for a three day weekend, and his wife was OK with that … I guess there's a way to make money off our narcs after all 😛 I saw another program where a woman played a very dangerous game of organizing encounters online and part of that was blindfolding herself for the encounter so she never knew who she was inviting in. The problem with any of these things, apart from the likelihood of things getting more and more 'kinky', is it's all about the physical aspect. An empath is never going to be truly satisfied with that. We yearn for closeness and intimacy.
            The baggage I would carry just wouldn't make it worth it for me.

            What is it they say … curiosity killed the cat? Far better for me to stop wondering 😉

          34. A Victor says:

            Ah LET, why do we need proof? That is our addiction. And, my twisted thinking, he says he needs a break, thus giving himself permission to sleep with another woman that same night, and I accepted that, we were no longer committed, I had no longer any right to say. That has been such a big issue for me, I don’t know what is acceptable to expect when in a relationship. It still scares me half to death, as you say, I’m not there yet, there is more work to do.

            Yes, friends with successful marriages and “What’s wrong with me?”. So true. I thought it was because I just wasn’t made for marriage, and in a very real way I wasn’t. At least not with a narcissist. I think with someone like the farmer it would have been so easy, it was so easy. No love-bombing, no rushing. Maybe there is…dun, dun, dun…hope.

            The payback can be sweet, I hope you relish it!

            His wife hired him out!? Lol!! What?! What kind of man allows that, except a horny money-making one!! Win-win I guess! But…ewwww.

            Yes, I have to bring the physical into line with the emotional going forward. Definitely not ready for that. And anything less would likely set me way back, so no, can’t be allowed to happen. Yes, I did just shed a tear.

            My cheeky gets me in trouble on occasion. 😇

          35. lickemtomorrow says:

            “he says he needs a break, thus giving himself permission to sleep with another woman that same night”

            That really says it all, AV. The sense of entitlement being filtered throught the facade. I want to, and I’m going to, sleep with another woman, but in order to meet the requirements of the facade I’ll just need to create a scenario which blame shifts what I’m about to do onto you.

            “I accepted that, we were no longer committed, I had no longer any right to say.”

            And this. We’re left without any recourse in terms of what they are about to do. They’ve decided. Our rights are forfeited. Did we get a say? No. Devastating.

            We’re stripped of so much dignity when it comes to the narcissist. We lose our rights, as you say. The right to reply. I gave that up intentionally in my situation. In that instance, it would have only satisfied him. He can’t get no … satisfaction 😛

            Relationships with narcs definitely mess up our sense of expectations. We are in a worse position as ACON’s where those expectations were probably never set. I find the same difficulties as you in that sense. I have never had, and don’t know, the boundaries and expectations for healthy relationships. They elude me. I’m hardwired to do everything that in the end only causes me more damage. Which is why getting a handle on all this information and understanding is so important. It’s the only way out of the nightmare, but it is a way out. I can’t think of, or imagine, any other. So, there is hope. I’m determined not to let the narcissist beat me in that sense. If we hang in here long enough, AV, I’m sure we’ll get what we need to move forward <3

            And none of us are made for marriage with a narc. It's never about us, and the odds are against us. Such marriages are never made for success. If they last, they're made more for endurance. I'm assuming, for the most part, my friends didn't marry narcissists, and that ultimately they were saved from the rigours of being ACONs, scapegoat children, etc. That's not to say they had perfect lives, some of them are empaths, but they managed to dodge the narcissistic bullet. And I am happy for my friends. It's what I always wanted. Because of them I know it can be achieved.

            When it comes to the guy whose wife hired him out … what can I say? I'm sure he thought he was getting a good deal, and she didn't have to wonder so she was probably getting one, too! But to actually be setting him up with other women … and gleefully giving a description of his various assets in advertising material. Is one of these people a narcissist? Are both of them narcissists? I have zero understanding of this dynamic. It's not what a relationship is or should be in my estimation. Certainly not from an empathic perspective.

            The thought of being set back is not one I want to entertain either, AV. I can understand shedding a tear. There's such a huge desire to be able to move past it all, and a wish we didn't even need to be here in the first place. Setbacks are the last thing we need. A whole lot of patience is the thing we do need. With ourselves mostly. We are going to get it wrong from time to time. What we're not going to do, hopefully, is beat ourselves up about it. Entertaining thoughts is one way of dealing with the frustration. Take my word for it, you're not the only one who has entertained thoughts as a way of breaking free of the chains. Things will get better. They already have. We just have to try not to lose sight of that. And keep checking back in as a way of staying on a more stable trajectory.

            You're 'cheeky' is a part of your nature to embrace 🙂 It can be such an enjoyable aspect which lifts us out of the mundane and into a more playful arena. It keeps life a little more lighthearted, especially with everything we've had to confront. Cheeky keeps us cheery 😉

          36. A Victor says:

            LET, I just don’t want to have to keep checking back in, at this moment. Kind of frustrated with having to be here at all. I am very fond of the people and am glad this place and this option to understand is here, I just don’t want to have to be here right now. It will pass, not a problem, but it is my place today. Thank you for your reply. I am sorry not to be a bit more upbeat. Yes, the cheeky is a good thing.

          37. lickemtomorrow says:

            I understand, AV. I hope you will be feeling a little more upbeat soon <3

          38. A Victor says:

            I am already, thanks! I figured it out! Looking for affirmation this morning, didn’t get it in a spot, and how that affects me! I can overcome this! Thanks LET! 💕

          39. Chihuahuamum says:

            Hi A Victor…I can relate. I’V
            ve had both a spouse who wasn’t sexual and a narc who is super sexual.
            My spouse I think may be asexual although I’m not sure.
            The narc used sex as a tool. It worked for awhile, but i was able to realize the tactics centered around it after reading the articles here. Thanks to HG’s information. I won’t say I’m 100% unaffected, but i no longer attach any belief there’s any love attached. A partner who is boring in bed can truely love you though. I know we want it all!

          40. A Victor says:

            Hi Chihuahuamom, is your spouse a narcissist? I recently came to understand that there was no love involved with my ex. I wish I had understood years ago, it might have made things different. I think I’d rather stay single now than have a boring partner in bed, it’s one of my prime reasons for getting married again, if I do. I know others marry/get involved for lots of other reasons but I don’t have most of those reasons anymore, I can meet most of my people needs in other ways. Only this area I cannot. I can live without it if I have to, I just won’t like it.

          41. Chihuahuamum says:

            Hi A Victor… No my husband isn’t a narcissist. There is a side to him i don’t know. It’s complex my marriage. He is very selfless in so many ways and a wonderful man, but sexually there’s issues. I don’t mean this in a disrespectful way because i love my husband and do care about him.
            A marriage void of sex is a lonely one and emotionally painful one. He has wanted to fix things, but i feel too much has happened.
            I could be with a man sexually boring as long as he still wanted to be intimate and have sex. I do however love sexual fun and being able to be yourself without fear of judgment and this is what i have with the narc. There isn’t any real love though. He says i love you, but it’s not genuine. I don’t even think he believes it’s genuine. He’s not capable of it. It’s odd because i do see towards my 2 dogs he adores them. He never was allowed pets as a child. His parents were particular with animals. He has never owned a dog or cat.

          42. A Victor says:

            Oh, so you have two, a non narc husband and a narc lover? Well, I suppose that could work…not sure if I could do it though…but man, I do feel a bit cheated of all that supposedly fantastic narc sex!

          43. JB says:

            AV, you’re not alone! It seems I have ‘Daddy issues’ too. My husband often says I seek validation (and often from my dad, which is a pointless thing to do!)

            HG, thanks for this clarification. It’s eye-opening, and explains a lot for me. Can I just ask, why does the narcissist find Daddy issues so appealing? The Prime Aims, but how do such issues cause the Prime Aims to be achieved?

            I actually suspect that my dad (suspected narc) had some Daddy issues of his own – can I also ask, HG, how would these manifest in a male narcissist?

          44. HG Tudor says:

            It makes you easier to control and a greater provider of fuel.

          45. A Victor says:

            JB, now I understand where my insecurity within a relationship and my need to please that person! But I don’t get my self esteem from it, so to speak, it just gives me a feeling of solidity, however fleeting it is, within the relationship, sort of served to tide me over to the next time, not currently of course but in the past.

            My dad, a confirmed narc, definitely had daddy issues also. Now things with him fall into place more as well. Interesting. I think they manifested in the same ways as the women, in my dad at least. Issues with control being threatened etc. This is so interesting though because I have also wondered about how having a narc mom affects boys as to girls, so maybe it is different with narc men with daddy issues as opposed to the women?

            My dad was also difficult to get validation from. And one last thing, my mom loves giving out validation, I refuse it from her because she always calls it back in.

          46. JB says:

            HG, thanks for the info (“It makes you easier to control.. “) So, is that the case because basically those with Daddy issues are basically looking for a substitute dad of sorts, to take guidance (instruction?) from, and so they wind up being drawn to narcissistic characters as a result (who are all too happy to provide this)?

          47. HG Tudor says:

            In essence, yes.

          48. A Victor says:

            “In essence…” my question list just grew again, hahaha.

          49. JB says:

            AV, I don’t know whether I would say my self-esteem was based on the validation thing either, but I know I do have trouble making decisions without constant validation of what I am doing. I am a logical thinker, but I seem to never know what I want, in case it turns out to be the ‘wrong’ decision. Which stops me taking action, which I hate! I think I must be a complete nightmare to be with, as on the one hand I crave the security of being looked after (which I now realise actually translates as being controlled, grrr..), so I get drawn to blokes who do that, but then when I am with them I am bolshy and fight against it..cue lots of arguments and confusion on both sides! 😂

          50. A Victor says:

            JB, this whole conversation has been so eye opening! I have realized that it is only with narcs that I suddenly become absolutely squishy! And I think sometimes their attraction to me is that I am so independent in virtually all other ways. I am seeing now what a dichotomy it is and just how much I change in their presence. It kind of makes me sick. But, like you, when I am in the relationship and pushed too much, I also just stand up to it. I walked away from my first ex when I was done. I stayed with my second for far too long because I had done that to the first, it was guilt but also my further understanding, warped as it was, of what commitment really was. The first time I married it was not for life, it was to complete the thing and get away from him. The second was for life. But in both, much the same dynamics going on, I think they are both the same kind of Narc also. I don’t question my decisions, I don’t typically second guess myself, I do accumulate information prior to making a decision so that once it’s made, I feel it’s the best one I could’ve made. New information of course means something may be altered down the road but I don’t stress about that. So, wow, when it comes to the narcissists and just giving it all up within the relationship, what a difference from my norm, it so clearly shows the addiction, and the daddy issues! And, I was reminded this morning of a farmer I dated, three dates only, over 3 months. He sweetly, swiftly kissed me at the end of the third, up to that point, no physical interaction. He was so handsome, and so nice! But, I went back to my ex, fell for his hoover, at this juncture. I often wondered how that would’ve turned out, the farmer had mentioned that marriage was the ultimate goal but he was in no hurry for that to happen, he just wanted us to get to know each other and see how things might progress. When I told him I was going back with my ex (we weren’t married yet), he said “You ought to (he made a punching motion), he’s just a Casanova!” and then told me to call him if it ended and walked out. He never did marry and he died 15 years or so later, I have always wondered what could’ve been there. I must say, that farm life, the hours etc, did not appeal to me then but I would’ve been better off in the long run I think. Seeing the difference in my reaction to each man, there is hope for getting a handle on this, I think there is hope for working out my desire to have them be in a position of authority, since I now see how sick it really is. I mean get to where that sensation, the addiction, just makes me want to run. Maybe that will never happen and I must just stay clear always, just use that reaction as a red flag to get away whether I want to or not. I think my ET would definitely want me to not, so there would be that fighting against myself. Sorry so long, this is a thought process that has been forming but learning about daddy issues and remembering the farmer have helped some things really fall into place. Thank you for your input JB, it helped my process quite a bit!

          51. JB says:

            AV, I am replying here to the comment on Daddy issues, as nowhere else to reply!

            I’m glad I was able to help you, AV. I’m so sorry the farmer passed away and you never got the chance to see what might have been, that is so sad. But I guess we live and learn, and even though he might have been a lovely bloke, he still ultimately may not have been right for you. I think if I found myself single again, my tactic would be to see what I am drawn to, and then go for the complete opposite, as I now know enough about myself to know that the people I am most drawn to tend to end up being narcissistic, or full-blown narcissists! Xx

          52. A Victor says:

            JB, hahaha, I think your strategy is a great one! I might just try that too!

          53. JB says:


            Ha ha, let me know how it works if you ever decide to try it! 😂

          54. JB says:


            “In essence, yes” – thanks for the clarification!

        3. MP says:

          When my kids were toddlers there were times when the only way to make them behave was by spanking. One spank on the butt with bare hand and not strong enough for them to get hurt but enough for them to realize they have to listen to us. Nowadays we are able to use positive ways of discipline because they can understand more.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            The spanking of children has become a big issue over the last few years, MP. When I did spank it was more out my own frustration, if I’m being honest, and that is not a pleasant memory for me. I wish I had handled it better, but I know in those moments I felt overwhelmed. It wasn’t often, but a smack on the bottom wasn’t out of the question at times. Most of the time the disciplinary action consisted of sending them to their rooms, or denying them something, or making them wait. Forcing them to apologize 😛 LOL. Gawd, this is making me sound so old …

            But any physical discipline on my part was minimal and they used to laugh at me when I lost my temper and occasionally said “shut up!” I never cursed in front of them. So when I did, they thought it was hilarious 🙂

            I think we’ve come a long way since our parent’s day in terms of understanding what discipline is, that’s for sure.

          2. Asp Emp says:

            LET, reading your last paragraph – I was not ‘spanked’ – it was walloped, anywhere and usually held by the hair – mother did not do “discipline” in the sense of the word – it was lashing out or any reason (in her perception) – more often than not – fuelled by alcohol. There is a big difference in between ‘discipline’ and ‘violence’. I suppose it was because her children were clever and not like her, she never even made a grade higher than a Lesser. Whoopie-doo.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            AspEmp, I can’t ‘like’ this post, only because your mother’s treatment of you sounds horrendous! Yours and AV’s, which makes me very sad 🙁

            “Walloping” is much more serious than a smack and definitely crosses the line in terms of being abusive. The fact she walloped you all over and it involved hair pulling as well … I can only imagine that must have been awful for you as a child. You are right when you say it wasn’t discipline as much as lashing out in a very violent and abusive way.

            I’m sorry that happened to you, and to AV. Alcohol can turn some people into monsters and it must have also been frightening for you when you realized how her drinking coincided with the beatings and also led to a real dread of seeing her drink then as well.

            Narcissistic parents can be envious parents. When you mention her schooling, it’s possible she was resentful of how clever you were and maybe in some ways outshone her. That is also sad. Parents should celebrate their children’s achievements and success.

            There is the element of the scapegoat in your story, too, AspEmp, I’m not sure if your sister was exposed to the same treatment, but by any account your mother took an awful lot out on you, and you didn’t deserve that. No child does.

            It gives me pause to marvel again at all the empaths here who have suffered really traumatic childhood experiences and yet carry their empathy with a wonderful dignity that shows how much the bigger person they are and have become <3 xox

          4. Asp Emp says:

            LET, sorry WP obvs didn’t notify me of your response. Thank you for that. It was awful for me and my sister – we did not have any other adults to stop this – I know what my dad would have done !! You totally ‘got it’ = the fear when she started drinking and not knowing what it would lead to. 13 years between father’s passing and my leaving home. My sister was subject to it too but a lot less than mine. When I told my aunt about it – even now, I don’t think she can ‘forgive’ herself for not realising – then again, it’s how society and neighbours were in those days – we were too far away from the rest of the family. I was the first-born – she got pregnant – her fault but made it mine. So, I appreciate your words. And from what I read in your comment, you do now have a better idea of why I am who I am today. Why I will do anything to protect someone from such abuse. Thank you, LET xx

          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            So many things feed into the reason nothing seems to get done in these situations and a narcissist’s facade can keep people from knowing what is going on. There is the “street angel/house devil” phenomenon, which probably perfectly describes narcs and their facade, so no one is really aware what is going on behind closed doors. Children will also cover for their parents. That is because we need our parents, and can assume that their treatment of us is either deserved or normal. We just want them to love us. So we try harder. And never think to tell someone that we are being treated appallingly and that this needs to stop. I see MP has mentioned neighbours being aware of her situation, but many factors, including cultural ones, keeping anyone from commenting or intervening. Sometimes it’s accepted practice by whole societies in terms of how children are treated. I’m huge on both children’s and parent’s rights. Both need to be supported. The fact your mother was a narcissist means any support offered her was unlikely to have had a positive outcome. What is heartbreaking is that so many of us have to endure without any support ourselves as children. It takes other adults to intervene. I’m so glad your boss did that for you in your first job when you turned 18. Much like what is termed “battered wife syndrome”, it can become impossible to leave when you are so beaten down in the circumstances. You’ve come a long way since then, AspEmp <3 xox

          6. Asp Emp says:

            Having said that, the boss at work I had from age 18 to 22 – he was, I would say, my rescuer – got me a flat away from home. I think he recognised how dangerous it was for me – I had turned up at work with a black eye once, he took me up to the staff room and that is where we spent all day, chatting. And, yes, I still got paid a full day’s work. None of the other staff were allowed to comment on that either LOL. He’d been in the forces (& a war) – so he’d “seen things that nobody should have to see” (quote / unquote).

          7. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, I am sorry you experienced this. Narc parents are the worst. There is a big difference between and violence, you nailed that.

          8. Asp Emp says:

            AV, thank you. I nailed it – survived it (just). x

          9. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, I am glad you did, that we did. I guess I left it the word discipline on the last comment but you understood I am glad to see. Some good news, I feel like I’m finally getting a bit on top of this, wanted to share that with you. It’s exciting!

          10. Leigh says:

            Oh Asp, a mother is suppose to nurture and protect. I’m so sorry you went through this. I agree with LET, it still amazes me how we became empathic. The traumatic abuse we suffered was horrendous.

          11. Asp Emp says:

            Leigh, thank you. What you say RE: mother’s role – absolutely. This is a main reason why I think it is high time that the world of unaware’s need to understand that mothers are not always the ‘sweet, loving nurturers’ – far from it. I think it is fair to say that it is amazing that empaths can become the people that they are as a result of such traumas – stronger and in my case, it is not surprising that I have the ability to ‘dial down my empathy’ basically immediately – I am now aware that I do it – it’s something I learned to do. For example, someone said to me years ago (yup, a narcissist) says “I have a cold” and my response was “Well, you should not be spreading it around vulnerable people” – empath grenade released……my colleague was disgusted with her (smiled when I lobbed that grenade back) = 404 moment. LOL.

          12. Leigh says:

            Asp, I agree, It is high time the world realizes that not all mothers nurture. When someone says to me, “But its your mother”, I lose my mind. Just because she gave birth to me, doesn’t mean she automatically gets my respect or empathy.

            I do have to admit though, I fail a little bit on the nurturing side. I’m there for my children 99.9%. But because of my lack of nurturing from my mother, I think I’m failing a little bit. I don’t do hugs. Like when my kitty died a couple of weeks ago, they may have needed a hug but it didn’t even dawn on me until much later. Something I will need to work on for sure.

            As for dialing back my empathy. Yep, I do that too. I have very little patience for people sometimes.

          13. MP says:

            Haha we have been using the same tactics. When someone hits the other I will take away a favorite toy for a week and for them to get it back they cannot hurt their sibling again or it will get extended for seven more days. Mornings are school time so no TV until after lunch. When they get disrespectful like scream at me if I didn’t give them what they want I send them to their room for five minutes then I talk to them then we hug it out. I also tell them to say sorry and to say it’s ok and about 95% of the time they do it without a problem then they hug.

            I don’t know what the new ways of discipline is. I remember my stepdaughter was so proud about parenting philosophy that she says is popular in Hollywood. I can’t remember the name but it’s like treating the child like an adult. She talked to her little three years old like they were peers. It wasn’t my style so I didn’t read the stuff that she wanted me to about it. My half siblings were raised by their mom whom I think was an UMR-Cerebral using Dr. Spock’s philosophy. My half brother was the only one who didn’t become a narcissist but my dad was very involved with him while their mom didn’t allow my dad to be that involved in the decisions and raising of the girls which both became narcissists. They basically got all of the material stuff that they wanted and they were allowed to do everything while their mom made quilts and needlepoint art inside her closed room. So for I’m not a fan of Dr. Spock’s parenting philosophy.
            My husband and I are both old school with parenting and I have a very close friend here who is from Mexico and we agree on almost everything so I feel lucky because on play dates our kids get along really well and her parenting is very much like mine. I also lost temper on our kids and so did my husband but thankfully they were very seldom and like your kids they can laugh at us and they are not afraid of us. I think it’s incredibly hard to raise kids with a narcissist parent and I don’t think I would have done well if I had to do that.

          14. lickemtomorrow says:

            MP, very interested to read your comments here, and thanks for sharing <3

            You know that old saying – "this is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you" – well, I can relate to that, and I suspect a lot of parents can. We actually don't like having to discipline our kids. At least that's a line that can maybe be drawn between empathic and narcissistic parents. And I mean that in the sense that narc parents will either be over indulgent (not hearing a lot about those here) or extremely authoritarian.

            There is a middle ground most parents try to maintain between those two (I'm sure the normals have got it right), but for empaths I'm just wondering now if we are more inclined to overindulge at times (I know I did), and I know for a fact as far as my children's father went it was his way or the highway. No empathy. He could be brutal. And he wasn't even aware of that. Which goes to his narcissism. No conscience either. Or ability to have any insight. This is the point at which an empathic parent may try to make up for what is lacking in the narcissistic parent, or make amends by overindulging. Hadn't meant to say all that, but the thoughts are flowing so I'll just let them flow.

            If I had to discipline my children we would always end up having the conversation, when they were old enough, or there would be an explanation so that they understood why they were being disciplined. Otherwise, what's the point? But for the most part any disciplinary action was short lived and followed up by an apology if needs be. There were some very resentful "sorry's" given, but wrongdoing had to be acknowledged, and sometimes both owed eachother an apology. I also apologized to my children when I knew I was wrong. I thought that was important. For me it was about setting an example. I could get things wrong, too, and the upshot of that was acknowledging it and apologizing for it. We are actually a very forgiving family unit in that sense. On the other hand, their father never apologized for anything, or ever reflected on anything, because he was always right. Jerk! I never understood the never looking back and always driving forward until I got here. And I still don't understand it in some respects, and it totally p's me off, but at least it answers some things for me.

            A more frightening thing, from my perspective, is a news report I came across yesterday which floored me. It was being suggested by some 'forward thinking' childcare facility that parents and carers should be asking permission from their children before interacting with them. This seemed to relate to children even below toddler age, and they were recommending asking your child if you could change their nappy, not interrupting their play to change their nappy, asking them if you could pick them up rather than just doing so, etc. The concept is nothing short of frightening to me. Parents are in charge of children. That is the responsibility we accept as adults and children expect us to take care of them. It's a two way street and by far the most secure foundation for children. Yet, here are people suggesting we put children in charge. I could say so much more about this, but a world in which we give more and more power to children and parents are expected to kowtow to them … let me just say, if we thought narcissism is one the rise now, future generations will be decimated by it.

            We will occasionally lose our tempers, as you say MP, but to my mind that is far preferable to toddler tantrums ruling the world.

          15. MP says:

            Hello LET, The forward thinking childcare facility that you saw seems to follow a similar philosophy as that which my MR stepdaughter follows. I remember the name now, RIE parenting. The parent has to ask for permission from the baby to change diapers etc. even if the baby doesn’t really understand. I think their philosophy is that it will establish the child’s ability to have a voice and boundaries. I remember she told my husband to not tickle her daughter which kind of made my husband think his daughter is nuts although he has also said that in several other occasions for various other reasons. She said that roughhousing and tickling the baby is a violation of the baby’s boundary. I am not knowledgeable about RIE parenting since I didn’t read the books that she wanted me to read so I could be speaking out of ignorance too. But from my observation from her, it was not the style that aligned with who I am. I think one of the turn off for me was when she was talking to her toddler like her toddler was her friend.

            This is my personal opinion, after reading some of HG’s articles and also other books such as The Whole Brain Child and Brain Rules for Babies, babies need the feeling of safety and feeling safe also includes the feeling that your parents are wiser, bigger, and stronger than you and they will make the wisest decisions for you to keep you safe and you can be comfortable with the fact that you are a child and can just relax and rely on your parents making choices for your good. I think it is not going to give kids a safe feeling if their parents treat them like their peers and expect them to make decisions that they don’t have the tools to make yet. But that’s just my opinion.

            I agree about the importance of apologies and it is also a constant in our family. My husband is a little more reticent in asking for forgiveness but he does it. I agree about modeling and also I believe if they are used to growing up where they ask for forgiveness and get forgiveness with no issues, when they encounter a narc someday they will realize that it is not normal and not what they are used to and hopefully that helps them to get turned off and seek healthier relationship. With their dynamic as siblings they easily say sorry and the other immediately says I forgive you and it’s the same with us their parents too so I hope that it will work. 🤞

          16. lickemtomorrow says:

            MP, I enjoyed reading your comment and thanks for that further insight around the parenting style I mentioned. Sounds like the same one, and while I’m all for what I would call responsive parenting, and reading babies and children’s cues (tired, hungry, bored), plus providing an explanation when dealing with them – “OK, let’s get your nappy/diaper changed”,”time for bed”, etc. I think we are putting a burden on children by asking permission. It’s almost like asking them to parent themselves. At least that’s how it sounds to me. And from that perspective it would be an enormous basis for insecurity in the child. The opposite scenario is just as bad where parents take all the control and insist without sensing or taking into account their child’s needs (authoritarian). My feeling is there is a balance which needs to be struck for both parents and childrens sakes.

            Totally agree with your second paragraph as well. We can’t be our children’s peers. They can’t raise themselves. And we need to have the authority to ensure their well being. From my experience they will find enough opportunities with their burgeoning maturity to challenge any misconceived ideas (from their perspective) and hopefully at that stage we will have prepared them well enough to let them test the waters of their own experience. It can be a delicate balance at times.

            I meant to get back to the boundary violation thing as well. No doubt there are appropriate and inappropriate behaviours which both children and adults need to understand. In relation to what you have said, some children might have a particular dislike for a certain type of interaction and it would not be right for the adult to insist on that if they are aware of the child’s reaction. For example, my mother would put freezing cold hands on me. I hated it. She didn’t care. And thought it was funny. Even as an adult I would consider that a boundary violation on her part. She knew I didn’t like it, but she did it anyway. So, I don’t disagree with respecting certain boundaries when it comes to children and their needs.

            Recently my daughters boyfriend’s mother had a run in with his brother’s partner over what I would term a boundary violation. It was a basic nose wiping job on her first grandchild where grandma insisted on doing it her way after already being told by the mother the child did not like having his nose wiped that way. It might seem simple, but I believe the mother read the situation right, spoke for her son who at one year old was not old enough to speak for himself, and yet grandma insisted. Needless to say WWIII broke out as the mother felt disrespected and grandma couldn’t understand the need to respect either mother or child’s boundaries.

            All in all, it’s an area for consideration, but I can understand where your husband is coming from in relation to his daughter. I’m sure if he knew his granddaughter didn’t like being tickled he wouldn’t do it. Asking permission to tickle in the first place seems to make the whole spontaneous idea of tickling pointless. I’d be interested to know how that works out for your his daughter and how she manages the need for control in the circumstances. Maybe that is an example of the overindulgent narcissistic parent. Somehow I can’t see it working out well for either of them.

          17. lickemtomorrow says:

            Oops! *his daughter.

          18. A Victor says:

            LET, my experience was similar to yours in some ways, I used a swat on the bottom to snap them out of a behavior or thought pattern or to correct dangerous behavior, like running into the street, but only after steps were taken first to handle it without a swat. Though I am not proud of those swats, I realized early on that I would never be able to do things as my mother had, I could never have brought myself to treat them as she had us. That was a pleasant thing to realize.

          19. Leigh says:

            I have to share about correcting dangerous behavior. I just thought of a memory that made me chuckle. My youngest was all over the place. I couldn’t keep her still. She was always trying to escape too. I had to put locks way up high so she couldn’t reach them. I had to put a lock on the basement door and the door going upstairs as well. I had to put the child safety locks on for the car. No matter what I did, I couldn’t get her to stop trying to escape. I would squeeze her hand if we were out in public to get her to stop running. Then she would yell at me, “You’re hurting me!” I would scream back, “Good, now stop running away from me and I’ll let go.” I can’t wait until she starts having babies. I’m gonna laugh when they do the same thing to her.

          20. A Victor says:

            I had one that did that too, it was so stressful. And I had an energizer bunny one, she’s now expecting her 4th and already has 2 that are just like her! It makes me giggle!

          21. Leigh says:

            Yes, she was an energizer bunny too and a monkey. She was constantly running and climbing things. I don’t know how I kept up with her.

          22. Leigh says:

            Ugh! I cursed all the time and I spanked too. I would only spank their hiney and like MP, only when they were toddlers. When they became teenagers, spanking wouldn’t work. I had to take things away, like their phone. We were not allowed to use mean or ugly words AT ALL. That was a rule I did not budge on. Name calling was absolutely not allowed. My husband is a name caller which was difficult at times but I didn’t tolerate it. I never used stupid, fat, ugly or any other derogatory word. I did yell ALOT, lol. I did curse too but not at them. It was more as a descriptive word or as an exclamation. Like Fucking A or Crap or clean your fucking room.

            Now that I hear my daughters cursing, I wish I hadn’t cursed.

            One other thing, discipline was always on me. My husband never disciplined other than to say, listen to your mother. He set it up perfectly because when they didn’t listen or do the right thing, it was my fault.

          23. lickemtomorrow says:

            Leigh, I really appreciate your honest input and I am not a fan of name calling either. In fact, I detest it and believe it can be extremely damaging. I would never ‘name call’ my children or allow them to name call eachother. If they did, an immediate apology was expected. My ex-husband could be a name caller and a curser also, and that was difficult when the children weren’t under my watch. I truly believe they came to expect different behaviour from him and therefore became accepting of it to a certain extent. So while I was trying to teach them one way, he was undoing that, not deliberately, but because he was a narcissist and considered all his behaviours to be right and true. I can see how your husband set you up to be the disciplinarian, and thus the fall guy when things went wrong. How convenient!

            The cursing made me laugh when you said it, but I can see how you might regret it now. Everything in hindsight as they say. And we need to factor in stress and our own upbringing, too. Perfect parenting will never be a thing. Ever. But we do our best.

            And “hiney” is cute! Butt is one I hear more often, but bottom, backside, bum are a few others I’ve come across 😛

          24. Eternity says:

            MP, I remember I came home at 3am when I was a teenager . My boyfriend drove me home and had the music loud . No cell phones at the time or internet . I walked inside the house. My mom was waiting behind the door, bam she smacked me with the slipper right on top of my head. Where have you’ve been? I will never forget it . Nowadays you can’t do that .

          25. MP says:

            Yes, I agree Eternity, it shouldn’t be acceptable anymore.

      3. MP says:

        Hello AV, I’m sorry your N parent was violent. I had the same experience as a child. I have resented it as a child but then as I was growing up I was seeing the positive sides of my abuse and crediting it for the positive things people said about me. I thought it was tough discipline but it’s better than no discipline. So I thought someday when I have kids I will be a little muted version of my mom’s discipline. When I had kids I realized I can’t even be near what my mom was and even small one time spank made me feel bad because even though it didn’t hurt them physically I know it hurt their emotions. However my husband told me that kids will never like being disciplined so at times I fought my inner empathy in order to be able to discipline. I honestly don’t know what is the best way to discipline because personally it is probably the hardest part of being a mom.

        Anyway, about the sexual spanking, I have never tried it and I have no interest. It’s not part of the life I have so I don’t even think about it. My husband is not into domination kind of sex. I have read though that some people actually enjoy that kind of sex. It’s not something I can relate but whatever makes people happy. If people are not for it they shouldn’t be subjected to it though.

        1. A Victor says:

          MP, I’m glad you can see the positive sides of your abuse. In my case it went way beyond tough discipline. My mother tried to choke me on occasion, bruises were left on us, things happened on stairs, weird sexual things were part of it etc. And those weren’t even the “disciplines”, which were all encompassing, body, soul and spirit. I would’ve possibly been a more functional adult with no discipline, so much damage these things did. My brother and sister also. Maybe someday I will see it as positives but I am not there yet.

          1. MP says:

            A Victor, I’m so sorry that’s what you experienced. My life was never threatened with my mom’s corporal style of discipline. She just hit me with flip flops or bamboo handle of a broom and she would hit me all over until her rage subsided. But in a strange way she never made me feel my life was in danger in her hands and she nursed my bruises afterwards and seemed to feel bad that I got her mad enough to do that to me. Not until recently I just thought she just wasn’t educated about proper ways of raising a kid but I thought she truly loved me and was my number one protector.

            I don’t think you ever need to see it as a positive. I think you are allowed to see it for how your body and mind sees it and acknowledge it for what it is and also acknowledge the strength you have inside to survive that and still be who you are. The positive side is who you are and how strong you are.

          2. A Victor says:

            I agree, to a degree. I don’t know that I will ever stop questioning what could have been had she been kind. But, I will not allow that to make me bitter, as I told Leela on another thread a bit ago. I am strong because of this, but it is a warped strength right now that is not useful in the ways it should be. I plan to see just how straightened out I can get it and go from there.

          3. MP says:

            It will come AV. I had the same journey but now I’m just focused on going forward. It has been a lot of trying to find myself. I can’t say this will work for everyone but for me seeing how my husband interacts with our kids has been very healing. I feel that being with a healthy person has been healing. And also seeing my kids develop as they are growing from infancy has been healing. It is like I am reaching out to my old child self vicariously through the healthy upbringing of our kids and through their happiness. My husband and I are by no means perfect parents, I often rethink, reconsider and revise some of my parenting tactics or strategies depending on how I have been seeing them affect my kids. And that has been healing as well. Looking at the things that really matter. I wish you all the best AV and I know you have already come a long way. There are many good things that you have already acquired for yourself in your journey and you have the power to choose wherever you want to go. This morning my husband jokingly and randomly told me “Today is the beginning of the rest of our lives”. And I told his “And so is tomorrow!” He was being silly but it is so true. We can pick any day as a fresh start. Our lives do not have to be perfect. And as I always tell our son, just because you made a mistake in your first sentence doesn’t mean it should bother you from making the rest of your paragraph as best as you want to make it. And also. I have seen some people from my childhood who had kind parents but still ended up going the wrong way. I know you will definitely find what you are looking for. You already know your strength and you will be able to control it the way you want to.

          4. JB says:

            That’s awful, AV. I am so sorry you went through that xx

          5. A Victor says:

            Thanks JB. I am glad it is no longer. It is why I didn’t want children, didn’t plan on them at all. But having them was very healing for me, I found out it doesn’t have to be that way.

          6. Leigh says:

            Oh AV, I’m so sorry to hear this. Its awful what they did to you. If I could kick their ass, I would. Somehow, someway you managed to become an empath out of all that chaos. Now, you’re a loving and supportive mother. Those are the positives. Despite everything you went through, you’re still such a positive person and you have a gentle soul.

          7. A Victor says:

            Thank you Leigh. It was only my mother. My dad was just not around. I think it speaks much to the genes.

          8. Leigh says:

            I’m so sorry. Your mother was suppose to nurture and care for you. Some people suck!

          9. A Victor says:

            Sorry Leigh, I didn’t clarify well, I was referring to the gene aspect of empathy. Thank you for the kind words.

          10. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            I’m so completely devastated to hear that AV ….. who in their right mind chokes their own child ….. bloody hell, it’s truly beyond comprehension! I’m so so sorry n saddened AV, that’s just breaks my heart to the very core
            None of it was your fault and you are never to blame yourself

            Despite what you horrifically endured, look how incredible you are now and that counts for everything. You’re children are so fortunate to have a mum as wonderful as you
            Just by being here, you have certainly enriched me . Never forget AV, you’re better than you think you are, you are such a beautiful good kind hearted person! Never stop believing in yourself, cos we sure do 💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          11. A Victor says:

            Bubbles, the reality of things done to me has been hitting me since I’ve been here. I think it has been a situation of knowing but not really grasping the meaning and enormity, until now.
            I have come to understand she wasn’t/isn’t in her right mind, from my perspective. This makes my cry, in what world, what perspective, is her behavior acceptable? I am just so glad that my makeup includes empathy, I can not fathom one of my children being subjected to this. Thank you for your kind words, and for believing in me. My belief is coming along and it helps knowing others do.

          12. JB says:

            AV, you’re right, it doesn’t have to be that way. I’m glad that having kids helped you to start to heal. It would have been such a shame if you hadn’t felt able to start a family because of your mum’s horrific treatment of you. She may have ruined one part of your life, but she sure as hell wasn’t going to ruin all of it! Xx

          13. JB says:

            MP, that’s awful. Can I ask, did anybody ever question your mum about the bruising? I will understand if you don’t feel comfortable answering this xx

          14. Bubbles says:

            Dearest A Victor,
            Understanding narcissism has answered so many ‘why’ questions for me
            Relating here has been the best therapy n medicine one could hope for
            It’s changed me a lot, it will change you too…….but in a good way
            Stay as lovely as you are and just keep swimming cos we’re swimming right with you 🐬(that’s a dolphin, they’re gorgeous n intelligent, just like us, curious n very sociable) hehe
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          15. A Victor says:

            Aw Bubbles, that is so sweet, the picture of a group (pod?) of dolphins swimming together, wild, free, strong and smiling!! Because we are victorious! Thank you for that!

          16. MP says:

            Hello JB, Don’t worry, it was a reasonable question. I don’t remember teachers asking my mom but some teachers asked me and I remember lying to them and saying I fell or something. I created a facade that I was spoiled and loved by my mom, mainly because I thought she really loved my but she was mentally and emotionally not equipped to parent me. I felt bad for her and she told me some people might want to take me from her. The thought of her being alone, also knowing that she can’t get along with anyone made me feel sorry for her so I didn’t tell anyone what was happening at home. I also changed schools every year in grade school so my teachers and classmates didn’t have a chance to get to know me and my mom that well. My relatives kind of knew that I was spanked a lot but corporal punishment was culturally accepted in my home country and so there was an allowance where my mom could do it and still appear normal in public. Culturally children are expected to have unfailing loyalty and devotion to their parents and at times that I answered back at my mom in public strangers glared at me as an ungrateful spoiled white child. My mixed white race also played some role in it because culturally there there’s an impression that white children are not respectful of their parents like the children there are and the fair skin and brown hair I have kind of made some people have some prejudice against me that I felt that I need to disprove which also made me feel that even if I tell anyone nobody would believe me anyway. My mom also dressed up in a way that made her look very poor and like a martyr and she told people that my dad didn’t send enough money so all of the money just goes towards me. And all of that combined made people in general feel bad for my mom and not suspicious. The general impression was that she didn’t have social skills, was very uneducated and can be unpleasant but deep inside all of that is that she is completely and selflessly devoted to me. And culturally, in my home country, people want to look for the good side in everyone so to them it made them comfortable or feel good I guess that the good side in my mom is that she would give her life for me and I was the same way too. There was one time though when I moved to a different school during high school and it was in the capital city and where I left my old school in the province, I saw my old classmates having a field trip in a museum and I never cut classes but that time I followed my heart and didn’t attend school that day and instead went to the museum to see all of my old classmates. They were so excited and they lied to the museum guards that we all go to the same school when the guard asked why my uniform is different. Anyway two of my old bestfriends took me aside and asked me if my mom was really beating me up at home because our neighbor just across our apartment also went to that school and apparently told a lot of students there that they could here all of the screaming and yelling from our house almost every night. I guess our neighbor had the courage to tell them after I no longer go to that school. And that was the first time that I was honest about it because I trusted my friends but I asked them to never tell anyone. It was also very embarrassing for me because at that age I didn’t want people to look at me and feel bad for me. So when I read stories in the news about kids being abused and nobody knew about it, I kind of have an idea what might be the reasons why the child never told anyone, although of course it is not always the same factors for everyone. It is very sad but it is really often convenient for narcissists to be able to abuse their kids.

          17. A Victor says:

            Aw MP, I am sorry for your experience with your mother. I only just caught that it involved bruises, especially at a level where people questioned them. It is awful to grow up abused. I am glad for us to be here now and able to make some sense out of it and move on. Thank you for sharing your story.

          18. MP says:

            Thank you AV. It kind of hurts whenever I go back to the memories, I’m sure it does with you too. But overall I am glad that the cycle is over. My mom passed away already and I do honestly love her but in many ways I feel that it made mine and my husband’s lives easier. Maybe two or three years before I discovered Narcsite I went to my home country and brought my son with me. My daughter wasn’t born yet. I had this idea that my mom would love to have quality time with her grandson which she wasn’t able to do. And I remember how weird it felt for me that her affect over meeting her grandson for the first time was so flat. And then she tried to give him a massage a few times and he was screaming because her hands were too heavy and he was only two at that time. I tried to make a connection between them as best as I could but there was no excitement in her eyes. But she was telling me the whole time how to take care of him and she was also very noisy doing chores during night time that he kept waking up and didn’t have a good sleep. It was a horrible time but I think that’s when I really accepted that there is no way that she can change. The knowledge from Narcsite affirmed it.

          19. A Victor says:

            MP, I don’t register memories as hurtful, they’re either pleasant or not, I have few memories from my childhood, mostly not pleasant. I am so sorry to heat how your mom was with your son, that had to be hard. That is where I have pain, seeing how she interacts with the great grandchildren. She didn’t understand why they reject her, they don’t understand why she’s so forceful with her hugs and kisses. Her sense of ownership is so clear. And their parents and myself trying to stop it.

            I have wondered how I will feel after she’s gone. Guilty for not liking her, for avoiding her? I do it anyway, for my own well being, she wears me down. It wouldn’t be so bad if she would hear my response and change her ways but that’s part of the problem, she doesn’t, now I understand why but it makes it almost worse, I have zero patience for it now. But also that I can’t just “go home” like in the past. I don’t think I’ll have guilt. I think i’ll have relief. I haven’t had guilt about my dad.

          20. Eternity says:

            A Victor , OMG I can’t believe you went through that so sorry.
            Why are people parents? they shouldn’t have kids. Tie your tubes for God’s sake.
            You are a positive person you have come to terms with it. You are a very brave to even talk bout it. Take care xoxo

          21. A Victor says:

            Hi Eternity, I’m just glad it’s over. My parents should not have had kids but, then I wouldn’t have mine, so who knows. I became an ostrich, keeping my head in the sand for most of my life. Whenever I’d try to pull my head out, nothing made sense, so back in the head went. That’s how I was able to stay positive until I arrived here and I wasn’t always. Now I am able to see the truth and be positive more easily, it is much nicer. And brave isn’t me, I just feel safe here. I don’t talk about my past anywhere else really. But I am glad to be getting it sorted out now. Thanks for your encouragement Eternity.

          22. JB says:

            MP, it just goes to show how times have changed. It’s incredible that there were people who had their suspicions, yet nothing was done to help you. I’m so sorry you went through that xx

          23. MP says:

            Thank you JB. The good thing is many international organizations are now coming to my home country and trying to affect change in the way children are disciplined. I don’t know how fast or slow progress can be made but I think it’s good for my home country to get perspectives from other parts of the world. Normals there also do corporal punishments. I know empathic parents who didn’t follow the cultural norm of discipline because they followed their instincts. With the internet and social media, more information and awareness also gets spread in countries that use corporal punishment on kids. My home country also didn’t have CPS and unless my mom had beat me up to the point of severe injury no one can do anything. She was just telling me that some people might take me in order to control me but no one really can. My American dad could not have taken me from her either because my home country wouldn’t give up a child to a foreigner especially when there was no marriage. So I think times are changing for the kids over there which is definitely a good thing.

          24. MP says:

            JB, I just want to add, the difference between a Normal and a Narcissist using corporal punishment is that the Narcissist acts on fury and oftentimes there’s no control or limitation over how they do it because of the lack of empathy. A Normal could ask their child to kneel on mongo beans and balance books on each hand until they promise that they will never do it again or until they promise to make reparations over what they did. Also when a Normal does it, it is usually over some serious misbehavior. While a Narcissist could do it just because I lost a pencil in school or I didn’t follow her instructions to a tee. I know a lot of childhood acquaintances that experienced corporal punishment rarely in their childhood by their Normal parents and does not feel that they were abused at all.

          25. MP says:

            Hello JB, Here are some information on corporal punishment as a means to discipline children in my home country and the recommendations on how to end it.


          26. JB says:

            MP, thanks for the info. I’m glad that there is some attempt at changing how corporal punishment is viewed being made in your country. Irrespective of country, it is not something which sits well with me. No disrespect to anybody here, we all parent differently, but it’s not something I would feel comfortable using x

  7. Survived a Sociopath says:

    This picture is so funny because my Narc-Sociopath (who is 19 years older) asked me during the love-bombing phase if I liked being bent over and spanked and saying “Thank you daddy may I have another”…lmao!! I rejected his advances and made him stay in the friend zone but he was constantly trying to break down my walls and manipulating me into talking about sexual things with him.

  8. Asp Emp says:

    Laughing…… How appropriate. To follow up this article with ‘Hush’. Pity, the image is in black and white, hence the less likely to spot the ‘red pen’ (2002 film ‘Secretary’) LOL.

    1. Jules says:

      I would never leave teeth marks on important documents like Scarlett did! 😉 It would need to be re done!! 😅

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Jules, laughing…… yes, oh, thank you for the reminder of that scene. Laughing. Oh, she certainly got spanked! It would have not hurt as much with all that dress material (giggling). In her defense, the stapler had not been invented those days 😉

    2. Eternity says:

      ASP Emp, great movie!

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Eternity, yes, great movie – but so bloody long! It was one of the greatest movies of all time when it was released. Interesting though, the film, does ‘smack – a lot’ (LOL) of narcissism. The innuendos! Laughing.

        1. A Victor says:

          Asp Emp, Secretary, with James Spader, is long? That’s excellent news! Thank you!

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Hey AV, alas, it is ‘Gone With The Wind’ – Scarlett O’Hara is the character being referred to here. Am I to assume that you still have not watched ‘Secretary’ AV? I cannot believe you! 😉

          2. A Victor says:

            Haha Asp Emp, it’s about spanking, so, aversion to that vs attraction to James…he’s starting to tip the balance…

        2. Eternity says:

          Ha ha Asp Emp you make me laugh!
          Instead of A Whole Lotta of Shakin going on there was A whole lot of Smackin going on.

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Eternity, the film – I was surprised was released during WWII ! Well, it was “taboo” to show sex scenes in films those days…… LOL. So they managed to sneak in a bit of erotica instead 😉

  9. Survived a Sociopath says:

    This picture is so funny…My Narc-Sociopath (who is 19 years older) asked me during the love-bombing phase if I liked being bent over and spanked and saying “Thank you daddy, may I have another?” lmao!

    1. leelasfuelstinks says:

      It´s a question of personal taste. I personally like that 😉

      1. A Victor says:

        It is about taste Leela, and also experience. My ex, so fucking boring, I can see I have led a very sheltered life in this area. And it pisses me off! I tried to expand our horizons but he wouldn’t…accommodate. Not to this scenario necessarily, not at all, but…what man is so dull when they have a willing partner? It was frustrating. It mirrored the rest of our relationship i suppose. What’s so nuts us that everyone around us thought we had the best marriage ever. That was hard for me to figure out.

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          You know what? “Lucky” me! I NEVER had a narc who was competent between the sheets. Only my Upper Lesser A Somatic ex was decent but struggled with keeping up his erection and with inability to orgasm. The rest was TOTAL TRASH in bed! 🤢

          1. Survived a Sociopath says:

            I didn’t mean for my comment to have appeared twice – internet issues!
            While I kept my Sociopath-Narc in the friend-zone and never let him do what he wanted to do to me physically, his last ex-wife told me how boring and plain vanilla and clueless he was in bed. When I told her about him asking me if I liked to be bent over naked and spanked while I called him daddy she thought it was so hilarious just because she knew how terrible and blah he was! She said he got lost often too…which is baffling to me, knowing how many women he’s slept with! Another funny thing…one of his lies was that he said he was amazing in bed and that at 55 years old, everything was still working properly – this last ex-wife said ummm no everything is NOT working and she sent me 2 pictures of 2 of his ED prescriptions and said they got about 5 seconds out of them and otherwise they didn’t work. She said he was a 2 pump chump all day long and he didn’t think there was anything wrong with that! haha this is why that picture cracks me up, thinking about all of this in relation to my particular sociopath. LOL!

          2. A Victor says:

            Haha Leela, same! It does make it easier to leave the narcs behind and consider a normal or empath! Silver linings! 🤣

          3. Eternity says:

            Ha ha you are hilarious Leela ! Just toss it all in the trash can!

          4. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Even a trash can would refuse the “bed skills” of some narcs! 😂 They belong to the hazardous waste.

          5. Eternity says:

            True, ha ha, they can’t even be recycled.

          6. BC30 says:

            Hahaha I realized in my case the difference between the Somatic and the Elite. The Somatic wanted to to everything all the time. The Elite found what worked and wanted to do that every time.

        2. Eternity says:

          A Victor ,
          I went through the exact same thing holy moly ! Are we related? ha ha .

          1. A Victor says:

            Eternity, haha, maybe! You’re not my sister though, pretty sure she’s a narc! 😂

          2. Eternity says:

            Oh no, maybe we are soul sisters then haha!

          3. A Victor says:

            Yes! I think that’s right! 💕

          4. Eternity says:

            Soul sisters Soul searching ha ha !

          5. A Victor says:

            Haha, that’s good!

        3. BC30 says:

          We’re not dead yet, get out there.

          1. A Victor says:

            Haha, working toward that!! And feeling really great about it! Thanks for the encouragement!

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