The Empathic Supernova

 

What is the Empathic Supernova?

In order to detail this phenomenon, it is first necessary to consider when it might appear and what is behind its appearance.

The repeated application of our manipulations is deployed for the purposes of maintaining control over you. This control reinforces our notion of superiority,  omnipotence and impregnability and enables us to draw fuel from our appliances and most of all you as our primary source.

I have made mention of the Empathic Group, the group which lies to the left of the empathic-narcissistic spectrum and within this group there are four schools of the empathic individual; the , the Standard Empath, the Co-Dependent, the Super Empath and the Contagion Empath.

The sustained application of the many and varied manipulations produces results for us. It also takes its toll on our victims. The Co-Dependent will cling on, desperate for the self-definition which manifests as a consequence of their ensnarement with us. They will soak up the abuse, the confusion and the control until they reach a point of breakdown. The cumulative effect of the silent treatments, the gas lighting, the physical abuse, the psychological trauma, financial mistreatment and sexual degradation eventually causes the limpet-like Co-Dependent to collapse into numbness, malfunction and potential hospitalisation. They gave and gave until suddenly they fell off the cliff and their fuel provision remained impressive on Monday and by Tuesday it had stopped. No longer capable of pumping out fuel, attending to our requirements and showering us with appropriate traits and residual benefits, this failure to function invariably brings about the discard of this individual. The disengaged from Co-Dependent, although distraught at the loss of the narcissist which they crave, is in no position to try to bring about the resumption of the relationship and thus, whilst we focus on their replacement primary source, they are allowed a period by which they can recover and once the lights switch back on again and the fuel starts to pump, the devaluation of their replacement has begun, so we come looking and hoovering for the Co-Dependent. Unable to resist, because of the nature of the hoovering and their own vulnerability, they are hoovered back in and the narcissistic cycle continues.

Whilst third parties may try to assist the Co-Dependent to see and understand what has happened to them, their own substantial need to connect with a narcissist means it is very hard to make them take notice and stay away from us. Unless physically removed and isolated, the Co-Dependent will drift back to us. If not the original narcissist, a replacement narcissist will invariably be found.

The empathic-narcissistic spectrum is a sliding scale that represents both empathic and narcissistic traits. On the far left the empathic traits are more numerous and stronger whilst the narcissistic traits are fewer and weaker. Move to the right and the empathic traits begin to lessen in number, their effects less evident and the narcissistic traits begin to increase and become more prevalent. Eventually, as one reaches the Narcissistic Group, on the right of this spectrum, the empathic traits have disappeared and all that remain are narcissistic traits which become more numerous and stronger the further right one goes within this Narcissistic Group.

Accordingly, with the Co-Dependent, he or she will have many empathic traits and they are strong in nature. Their devotion to love, their honesty, decency, excellent listening skills, positivity etc are most evident and contribute to create a highly empathic individual. The narcissistic traits are less extensive and the few that exist are generally weaker. Accordingly, this prevalence of empathic traits attracts and is attracted to the prevalence of extensive and strong narcissistic traits. They lock together, complementing one another and consequently the Co-Dependent is inexorably drawn to those within the Narcissistic Group, with next to nothing in terms of their own narcissistic traits to act as some kind of repellant.

The Standard Empath may also find themselves shutting down, but more usually they are prevented from reaching a position of complete numbing though the intervention of a third party. Sure enough the toll exacted on the Standard Empath is considerable and has damaging consequences, but, in general, they manage to avoid more often the fate of the Co-Dependent. Instead, rather than giving and giving until shut down occurs (as is the case with the Co-Dependent) the Standard Empath’s performance deteriorates in terms of fuel output in a more gradual fashion which means that when it dips below a threshold of acceptability for our kind, the Standard Empath is also disengaged from. Not so damaged as to be unable to function, the Standard Empath will endeavour to re-connect with our kind, having sufficient energy and ability to do so, but they will be shunned as part of this disengagement until it is time to hoover them. Unaware of what they have been ensnared by and with capabilities improved after a period of respite arising from the disengagement the Standard Empath is sucked back in by the narcissist and thus the narcissistic cycle continues.

The Standard Empath however may also realise that something is wrong, or assisted by third parties and more amenable to listening, takes notice of what these third parties are telling him or her. They have a moment of ‘awakening’ and with that realise that they must remain away from our grip, however hurtful and hard it may be and thus they eventually escape, putting distance between them and our kind.

The Standard Empath has numerous empathic traits and they are of strength but they are generally less in scale compared to the Co-Dependent. The Standard Empath will have numerous narcissistic traits but not especially strong in nature, but they will have more narcissistic traits than the Co-Dependent. Their status as a Standard Empath (along with the fact that there are more Standard Empaths than Co-Dependents) means that Standard Empaths become the bread and butter target for our kind. They too are attracted to us, not with the almost hopeless vulnerability of the Co-Dependent, but they remain not only attracted to our kind but a target.

Finally, there is the Super Empath. The Super Empath is an excellent provider of fuel also and comes with a confidence and a fieriness which proves most tempting to our kind. The Super Empath sees his or her role as helping, fixing, healing and brining goodness to those around them. They have considerable energy, they are capable and their capacity for sustaining our abuses also makes them a considerably attractive prospect. The Co-Dependent can sustain considerable abuse until suddenly, like a light being extinguished, that is it. The Standard Empath also can sustain our manipulations but their slide is slower and more gradual. The Super Empath, blessed with a vast capacity for empathy and goodness is also somebody who can sustain a lengthy campaign of abuse. There is no slide downwards with this individual like the Standard Empath. There is no sudden collapse like the Co-Dependent. Instead the Super Empath goes in to Supernova mode.

The trait make-up of the Super Empath is different from their cousins in the Empathic Group. Whereas the Co-Dependent has strong and many empathic traits with few and low narcissistic traits and the Standard Empath has a greater number of narcissistic traits  and fairly low narcissistic traits but more and quite strong empathic traits, the Super Empath has a different constitution.

The Super Empath has very strong and numerous empathic traits. He or she also has a significant number of narcissistic traits (more than the Co-Dependent and the Standard Empath but not as many as the Narcissistic Group) and they are stronger in nature than those experienced by the Co-Dependent and the Standard Empath.

This arrangement is not problematic. Liken the Super Empath’s narcissistic make-up to the light from a candle and their empathic make-up the light from a spotlight. The intensity of the spotlight is so bright that the candle light is barely noticed. Accordingly, the narcissistic element to the Super Empath does not appear. The Super Empath behaves in an empathic way and thus is a target for our kind.

There comes a time however when the sustained abuse and the awareness of the Super Empath reaches a critical point. Rather than switch off or slide into decline, the Super Empath will decide that enough is enough. In some instances, this means that the Super Empath will escape and follow a similar route to that of the Empath and distance themselves from the narcissist.

On other occasions they enter into Supernova mode. When this happens, the Super Empath will dim their empathic traits. This can only be dimming. The empathic traits cannot be shut off as they are wired into the empath’s dna. Moreover, this dimming can only continue for a period of time and is not permanent. The naturally strong empathic nature of the Super Empath means that it will blaze bright again.

However, when this dimming takes places, the gap between empathy and narcissism in the Super Empath lessens so that the narcissistic traits are more prevalent. They do not dominate nor do they take over, but they are allowed to ‘shine’. However, whereas in our kind the application of our narcissistic traits is unfettered since we have no empathic traits and thus these traits are directed in a malevolent, harmful and destructive manner, the Super Empath uses these unleashed narcissistic traits for ‘good’.

This means that they will fight back against our kind and remain in the relationship with us. They will shut off the fuel provision, they will engage in manipulation of us, having learned how to effect it form their accompanying journey with out kind. The Super Empath will wound and wound, striking blow upon blow against the narcissist.  It is worth pointing out that the Super Empath does not necessarily know that they are with a narcissist (they may only realise this later) but rather they know that something is very wrong in the relationship and it must no longer continue.

Thus when some people ask the question

“Can you become a narcissist from being with a narcissist?”

or

“Can I pick up narcissistic traits from my experience of being entangled with a narcissist?”

The answer remains no.

But, if you find that you are exhibiting such traits and you are deploying them against the narcissist, what has happened is that you are allowing your inherent narcissistic traits to have greater prominence. You keep them under control and you are not allowing them to harm or hurt innocent parties, but rather you are applying them against the narcissist in order to strike back. You always had these traits, you have not gained them by being with us, but what you have learned is how to manipulate from being with us and now you are turning those manipulations against us.

The effect against us is varied.

The Lesser Narcissist will discard immediately with a display of ignited fury as he seeks to escape the turning of the tables. He will need to get away from this empowered Super Empath and find a new primary source straight away. He wants to shrink from this blazing  supernova of power which is causing him considerable difficulty through the cessation of fuel and the wounding from repeated criticism.

The Mid-Range Narcissist will find himself in a tormented loop as he tries to assert control. He will not comprehend truly what is happening. He will not want to lose the Super Empath owing to the fuel provision, but he is finding that his ability to manipulate and the reasonable degree of calculation that he has, is being sorely tested. He will try to assert his control through passive aggressive means, even pleading with the Super Empath to stop and ‘why can’t you be good to me again’? He will roll out the pity plays and sympathy cards in order to try to achieve superiority again. However,  either the Super Empath decides to escape and leaves the Mid-Ranger in a confused and bewildered state or the Mid-Ranger slinks away and discards,unable to sustain the fight and needing a new and far more compliant primary source.

The Greater Narcissist will rail against this insurrection and fight back. He will draw on fuel from alternative sources (usually the IPSS or IPSSs he has in the wings along with fuel form those NISS who are his inner and outer circle friends). He will relish the challenge shown by the Super Empath and a real battle of wills ensues as each combatant deploys manipulation after manipulation against one another. This hammer and tongs clash of the  titans sees the Super Empath applying what they have learned, similar to the apprentice turning on his or her master, as the old hand seeks to slap down the irreverent upstart. The Super Empath may withdraw and escape, satisfied that they have made their mark and scarred the Greater. The Greater may ultimately recognise that only a stalemate (for now) can ensue and breaks off, discarding the Super Empath and focusses on the acquisition of a new primary source (or more likely the promotion of an already ensnared IPSS). The Greater however will not leave matters there. A note will be made to rejoin battle in due course and bring the Super Empath to heel.

Thus the Empathic Supernova is when the Super Empath determines that enough is enough and he or she reduces their empathic traits, allowing the narcissistic traits to come to the fore and in so doing he or she trains their sights on making life difficult, miserable and awkward for the narcissist. This is why our kind proceed with caution with the Super Empath. Their capacity for sucking up the abusive devaluation and their impressive fuel provision is tempting indeed, but reaching the critical point and causing the ignition of the Empathic Supernova can have dire consequences for our kind.

Not for me of course. I relish the challenge and the assertion of hegemonic dominance. Obviously.

 

Listen to the Empathic Supernova

232 thoughts on “The Empathic Supernova

  1. Alexander the Authentic says:

    To Super Empaths,

    Kudos to you guys for being able to fight back against narcissists! If you can make a roaring, bullying Upper Lesser Type B narcissist withdrawal then you are awesome in my eyes. Since I don’t have any Super empath traits per my EDC, I’m unable to experience this.

    However, we all know from HG’s work that no contact and not engaging with the narcissist is the best option for Co-dependents, Standards, Contagions, and Supers (Team Empath).

    Also, if you follow celebrities and Superhero movies you may understand this. Wolverine has been feuding with Deadpool for a long time. Wolverine will always kick Deadpool’s behind 🙂

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Alexander, I think Wolverine would ‘maul’ Deadpool!! I liked your comment, thank you for posting it.

      1. Alexander the Authentic says:

        Most definitely Asp Emp! You’re welcome and glad you liked it 😉

  2. Niamh says:

    I do not understand the lure of playing their game with them – there is no wining here. Going “supernova” with your narcissistic traits, Trying to wound them?
    In playing their game, you just become the best proponent of their pathology! That is not wining, its the opposite.

    They tap into the ego right? That’s the point, their ego connects with your ego with compliments and attention. So then when the attention is gone the ego stings, as the part of the psyche feeling the pain. it’s an egoic response to act narcissistically towards them in retaliation and resentment. That is prolonging a shit and rather boring dance, when I want to salsa.

    Slipping away unnoticed is the key, when the eye of Sauron is looking elsewhere, just slide down the tower side like a ninja rapunzel ! get your ego responses in check and sit with your ego pain, let it make you stronger, that’s something they can not do. One of the many things, they can not do!

    1. A Victor says:

      Niamh, I agree, I have no desire to play games with them, only to get away from them, far and fast. They will only hurt us, no matter what we do. And, I don’t need or want the drama, it is not conducive to the peaceful life I am endeavoring to attain, now that I understand where the chaos has been coming from.

      I would say they recognize and tap into our addiction to them, then they “snake their tendrils around” us, as HG has written. They are very much the predator, we very much the prey. If we are unaware of their existence, we are much easier to ensnare. Our addiction involves ego I suppose but it is not limited to that.

      Slipping away unnoticed, and staying out of sight, is the only real option for success in lowering our ET so that we can become stronger, stronger to maintain our distance, our NCR.

    2. Wendy says:

      Niamh, I like this reasoning and I agree. I suppose my ET and wounded ego got the best of me at the time and honestly the reaction I had to him was totally not thought about at all. It just happened. I think I was so drained at the time that I just snapped and he was taken aback. He disengaged very soon after although I actually initiated it. This is all still fresh in my mind as it has only been a few months and honestly when I think about it I tear up. Praying this ET of mine will continue to lower! I really need to study more about types of empaths. It’s confusing to me!

  3. Supernova DE says:

    When looking back at ensnarement as IPSS, I am certain there were a handful of ‘cliff’ situations (I went off, he was stunned but collected himself and reeled me back in). As I recall, these situations would start and end within the same day or so, they were not drawn out.
    However at the end, I definitely had a more drawn out dimming of empathy toward him and manipulations ongoing toward him (two months or so). He definitely asked me to stop, and eventually disengaged. It felt to me more like I was consciously giving him a taste of his own medicine.
    I’m a standard but with strong 30% super minority.

    HG – is it possible for someone with strong super minority to go supernova later on, rather than quite soon as a true super empath would? Purely an academic curiosity on my part!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes.

      1. emc2gion says:

        HG I asked something along these lines a fair while back. I’m 60% Contagion and 10% Super. I normally give ppl in general and ppl I love and care about a lot of patience and understanding. Years ago before I found out what a narc was, a close relative had pushed me to my limits for months, horrifically. I would console and counsel, listen and help. Even with a newborn and no sleep. Then one day said person turned on me and threatened my life for something that I didn’t do. I didn’t think this person could be so evil. That flicked a switch in me. I fought back, not in violence, it’s hard to explain, I grabbed his energy push it on him, as well as my own angry energy, and the tone and force of my voice was a force I have never felt that amount of energy before, nor since to that degree.To the point this giant size man ran in fear. I have never seen him afraid of anyone….but he ran, he couldn’t get away fast enough, got in his car and drove off. I remember thinking is that all I have to do to get this sort of behaviour to stop. Now I know why, he was a narc. He had been feeding off me my whole life. Is this the empathic supernova? It was different to my normal contagion style disengage….

        1. Contagioud says:

          I am contagion mostly too. This sounds odd but I am curious do you feel the energy of animals. I have birds nest by my home yet no one else in our 400 unit beach community. Butterflies and scab if’s rest on me. I go to a park and dogs and children come to me. I feel the energy of my dogs. People too blurt their problems to me out of nowhere. I have felt the cold empty too or dark but never did what you did. Do you feel animals and people?

          1. emc2gion says:

            Hi Contagioud,
            I think perhaps that was my Super Empath coming out. Do you have any Super? Yes I feel the energy of animals, and they feel me too. Some of my best friends have been animals. I have a pet Jack Russel who is almost permanently attached to my leg. When I was little my family had horses, one horse they had been given was crazy and aggressive, but he would allow me to go with him, and he would follow me everywhere and hated when my parents and aunt made me leave….how do I know this because I could feel him. Another ladies dog had gotten older and became cranky and aggressive, when I went to pick up something from her house her dog came happily up to the fence to greet me, the lady couldn’t believe it….she never does that. This may sound strange but lately when I have been going on country drives a lot of wild birds keep randomly flying into my car, sometime a few each time I go. It’s really distressing. I was thinking about it and it feels almost like they are attracted to my energy in the car or something. People also divulge their inner most fears, problems and secrets, sometimes without warning. This too can be distressing at times especially when you don’t understand why it keeps happening. I’ve had a woman I barely know turn up on my doorstep beaten, and another I just met come to my house and tell me she had just been diagnosed with lung cancer. I think trying to understand this, and human behaviour as well as myself is what lead me to studying counselling and psychology. I can feel the source of people physical pain at times, and I have helped alleviate this on some people when other methods haven’t worked. I could go on, but some would think it’s crazy talk.

  4. A Victor says:

    Yes, the reminders are so valuable, it is the reason I am still here so much too. I hope that at some point I am too busy with real life to be here as much but I don’t feel quite ready for that yet. And I’m okay with that. Yes, we do see what they’re doing, we can’t not see it now.

    My oldest daughter is married to a suspected narcissist. I think she struggles. No, I know she struggles but I also know she is in denial about her reality a lot, which I think helps in a sad way. I am so thankful that she has a career and will be able to make changes more easily than some can, should she ever decide to do so. It is hard because I know that her children are growing up seeing his treatment of her. I have a good friend who now knows them through church, he is a pastor there (!) with whom I used to share a few things, before I knew of narcissism. She can’t believe it, literally. She is doubting me, his facade is so good. It makes me sick. He has an entire congregation bamboozled and her entire family and his parents know what’s really going on. His parents apologized to her a few years ago, for how badly he treated her. Isn’t that sad. We tried to stop them from getting married but you know how strong the addiction is, there was no way. Anyway, she is aware of HG and his work so hopefully she will use it if she gets to that point. I am going to buy the EDC for her next, she is interested in it, I think it will help her a lot. Thank you for asking Leigh. I hope you are doing well.

    1. Leigh says:

      AV, I responded on Consent because this thread is insane.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        I’ll go ahead and use this to reply to your comment on the other thread that I can’t find anymore, Leigh. I hope your children are safe from your husband’s fury. I assume they still live with both of you?

        1. Leigh says:

          Yes, they both still live with me. Its one of the things that has kept me ensnared. I need to protect them. He’s never hit them. But he has towered over them to intimidate them. I’ve thought about taking them with me. I have discussed it with them and they would come with me and help with the finances. I wouldn’t be able to pay for a 3 bedroom apartment on my own. The rent in my area is astronomical. I bought my house for dirt cheap so the mortgage is very low. If i wanted to rent a 3 bedroom it would be almost twice as much. Plus the news of one of my daughter’s being a narcissist has changed my though process. May God forgive me for saying this, but I don’t want her to come with me. When I escape, I have to escape my husband and my daughter.

          1. WhoCares says:

            Leigh,

            “When I escape, I have to escape my husband and my daughter.”

            That’s probably the best plan.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Leigh
            How to put this delicately –

            I believe your children are young adults? You have understandably discussed your escape with your children. Your daughter has been confirmed as a narcissist. If I found myself in your position I would consult with HG about how much, if any, bearing that might have on the situation.

          3. Leigh says:

            NA, regarding your concern about my daughter who is a narcissist. I wondered myself if she would betray me. Its a sad thought that I have to worry about that. When I said I’ve discussed it with them, I should have clarified that I’ve discussed it in the past. Around January of this year, we had a discussion about it but I never did anything. I said to my children, its up to you, you can come with me or stay here. At the time, I said, “If you leave with me, he will see it as you choosing me over him and that will make him furious.” My narcissistic daughter said she didn’t care, she was coming with me. My normal daughter said to me, “Well if I stay will you think I’m choosing him over you?” I said to her, “Absolutely not. I know you’re choosing to stay to keep the peace.” Then I ended up staying. They do not know about my most recent plans. No one knows except you guys here on the blog. Could she say to him that I’ve thought about it in the past? She might. But he won’t take her seriously. He’s grandiose and thinks he’s absolutely wonderful and that I would never, ever leave him.

            AV, I don’t know what to do about bringing my normal daughter. It is a challenge. Its probably one of the things that keep me stuck.

          4. A Victor says:

            Leigh, I just posted a comment asking about your children moving with you, I see the answer here. It is hard but you are being wise. I am sad for you to have to feel this way for your narcissist daughter but totally understand and support your thinking. It is exciting that you have spoken to your children about your plans! They can be supportive and even give you ideas now! I am certain you have stressed to them the importance of not letting anyone else in on it but I will keep my fingers crossed regarding their ability to do so. Sometimes such things can be difficult to keep under wraps. Do you have any ideas how to have one daughter join you but not the other? That could be a challenge.

  5. Wendy says:

    AV, absolutely! It was only six months but the cognitive dissonance, trauma bond, and the devaluing after being lifted up so high really had an effect on me. I’m learning so much here! I think I have a handle on the schools of narcissists but still unclear about the different empaths. I can’t imagine you being in that relationship for 23 years! You are a soldier! And so are all the others out there still in it and the ones who got away. Maybe there is someone out there for us but sometimes I think it’s not going to happen. We just need to love ourselves, enjoy life, and be the best we can be in all areas. I don’t want to rely on ANY person to make me happy! Happiness comes from within, isn’t that the saying? I’d rather spend the rest of my life alone than to end up with another narcissist!

    1. A Victor says:

      Oh yes Wendy, any amount of time with them leaves us shaken and bewildered at best! And many times much worse off. I had only 3 months, never even met him, with the last one I was ‘involved’ with. I was a mess after it ended, even with me doing the ending! It is crazy how much they affect us. I agree that we need to get on with our own lives and not concern ourselves with having a person, it may not happen and why waste our time just wishing for that? Too many good things to do with life to allow that to eat up our time. Yes, alone is better than with a narcissist, for sure!

      1. Wendy says:

        Amen! 😊

  6. csblitz says:

    Bottom line is the information we are receiving is coming directly from the kind of person that has or has the potential to destroy us. I appreciate the guidance yet, I feel a bit like Clarice in silence of the lambs……

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hi Csblitz,

      If we were interacting with HG in real life then yes, he has the potential to destroy us. Even then though he would require a motivation to do so.

      Most secondary and tertiary sources are treated well, they have to be for facade maintenance purposes. They are far more likely to be shelved than destroyed.

      The person in the fuel matrix who is most likely to be subjected to prolonged and malign manipulations is the IPPS. So to equate yourself to Clarice is similar to assuming you would be the IPPS.

      Additionally, here on the blog, it would serve no useful purpose for HG to ‘destroy’ anyone. That would be self defeating surely?

      HG is a narcissist yes, but you are not at risk here on the blog.

  7. leelasfuelstinks says:

    My goodness guys! By re-reading H.G.s books with lower ET I finally had an enlightenment! 😲 Now I understand why I raged against the MMRA Elite, why I berated him, why I triangulated, why I was so pissed off because of his withholding sex. This is not because I wanted it but because he made me feel like I AM NOT WORTHY of it! He made me feel like a second-class woman, a mere object, just wanking material, not a human being! It was done to de-humanize me, to belittle me, to objectify me, to undermine my self-esteem, to degrade me, to feel superior! That´s the key point! 😡

    Of course one gets pissed off and reacts with furious rage! 🤬

    1. Asp Emp says:

      LFS, I love your wording at times…..”wanking material”. That is funny. But having read the rest of your comment, it is good that you see things differently when your ET is ‘adjusted’ because you have changed the way your LT ‘views’ things. Reading your words also reminded me of my supanovas (with amusement). It is demoralising at the time when you are treated like that and when you understand why it happened, it can ‘hit’ you a bit harder. Yet it does not make what happened ‘acceptable’ (forgivable in some way). Understand it and train yourself to think ‘I am a lovely woman’ despite that one ‘man’ – there are other men who will accept you as the woman you are. It is hard to ‘love yourself’ after being made to feel like you had done (likewise, for me too) – it takes time. I love ‘myself’ more than I ever did previously…..

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Thank you, Asp! Yes, exactly wanking material! That´s what I was. 😂 Withholding sex, wanking like a chimp instead and always pointing out that a woman has to deserve the sex. 🤦‍♀️ So, the message was pretty much this: “You´re not worthy of it Leela, you´re an immoral sluttish whore. But you´re good enough as animation for my wanking fantasies. You do not deserve me, because you´re not worthy. I´m morally WAY superior to you slut”. Of course you just go “FUCK YOU!”

        1. Asp Emp says:

          LFS……laughing…… chimps wanking……fkg hell, I am laughing too much……you know what it’s like, your brain does a ‘404’ moment, not that I am actually looking for the warehouse shelf with a chimp sat on it!

          The Lesser I knew made me feel unworthy as well as the MRN – both in different ways….16 years combined……the Lesser wanked (talc, sock) and the MRN didn’t (well, I never saw it).

          Still laughing…..chimps…..

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            How can we EVER forget the talc and the sock? 🤣🤣🤣 And H.G. says in one of his H.G. Mauls audios “Some of you are wanking like chimps” (H.G Mauls The Cerebrals) Love that term too. 😂

            My ULA Somatic Ex at least took fuel from the sex and at the beginning it felt surprisingly real, except for his problems with stamina (he couldn´t hold his erection for long).

            All of them were bad in bed but Mr. MMRA Elite Wanker was really the biggest wanker! 🤣

          2. Asp Emp says:

            LFS,…..laughing…..(your first paragraph). Giggling at your second paragraph…….

      2. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Have to add something, which should be a warning for everybody here! Withholding sex is also a tool to create the trauma bond. They make you feel unworthy and especially ACONs (like me) are prone to be pissed of by that due to mommy- or daddy-issues. So what can happen is that you try very hard and even harder to “prove” to your narc that Yes, you are worthy. And there we go: He or she has a powerful weapon against you in his or her hand. This is a warning to everybody here!

        1. Asp Emp says:

          LFS……laughing again……I could not have put it any better RE: your wording on the weapon. We all have had similar or different experiences in relation to sex and the narcissist(s) involved (or not ‘involved’!). I still cannot forget the image of chimps…..fks sake….giggling like a school girl now, laughing……

        2. A Victor says:

          Leela,
          That is interesting, my thought was “His loss.” Followed by “Damn, it’s my loss too.” Followed by “What kind of loser doesn’t want to have sex with his wife?” Followed by “Well, no changing it now (as he slept)”.

          It wasn’t until the end of our sexual life, a couple of years before he left, that I actually got somewhat down about it, he’d always give me “Rainchecks(?!)” which would keep being extended into months, asshole. But, I didn’t really take it personally, I just realized I was missing out on this part of my life, our marital life, and that made me sad, sometimes angry or frustrated, haha, but usually just sad about missing out, my years going by. Asshole.

          Anyway, once he left, I was happy to be able to consider sex again! It was a fucking relief!! Probably my Pride and Vanity traits speaking into that but it made it easier for me. And he was so crap in bed anyway, that probably helped too. Had he been good at it, or tried to be, it might have bothered me more. Just a different perspective.

          1. Wendy says:

            My relationship lasted only six months and other than vacations we were together only on weekends as we lived in different states just two hours away. I drove down every weekend to him not the other way around. He only started withholding sex in the last month that we were together and I intuitively knew that he was having it with someone else. When I found the used condom under the bed while cleaning pretty much sealed any doubts and even when presenting it to him he swore up and down it was one he used with me. Liar, not at all true and he knew it! But, the withholding of sex was very upsetting at the time. He never “made love” because obviously you can’t make it if you can’t feel it. If he were being rated as a porn star he would have won first prize! But that only goes so far….no pun intended! Lol power and control is the name of the game with them.

          2. A Victor says:

            Hi Wendy, be glad for the short duration! I spent 23 years with my ex! And same, no actual “making love” not even much effort to pretend to. I always want to say Asshole when I write that stuff! And I normally don’t use peppery language at all. One comment I saw on you tube really brought it home for me, something to the effect of being pummeled for far too long with no eye contact or tenderness. This was the comment that made me realize just what I had been dealing with. Between that and the withholding, it is amazing I even ever wanted it. But I was faithful and settled for what was available I guess. I am glad for you that you found sufficient proof, any amount of time in these situations is too long.

          3. leelasfuelstinks says:

            EVERY narcissist I ever met, was crap in bed. Three Somatics, just one was more or less decent, except for Erectile Dysfunktion, the rest well: Do you like sleeping with a robot? I don´t. 🤪

            I don´t know, if Mr. Wanker counts, there was of course no bed, nothing, but the self-esteem crushing was THE WORST OF THE WORST OF THE VERY WORST! I think I will give Mr. MMRA Elite Wanker the price for the ALL TIME ABSOLUTE WORST anyway. 😂

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Give me your number and I will redress the imbalance.

          5. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Hahahahahaha, H.G! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

            I´m sure you would! 😉

            🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

          6. A Victor says:

            Lucky! 😂

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Protect your nipples Leela! And do kiss and tell afterwards!!

          8. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Yuck! The nettles! H.G. has a thing for nettles! 😂

          9. BC30 says:

            Hey! (I’ve been away for a minute and a million things I have missed.) Commenting here since it is a direct Reply button. I had a consult with HG and had the opportunity to ask some of my questions regarding Es, but there isn’t a sufficient sample size. He can make educated guesses, but most folks don’t put both parents through EDC.

            Unsurprisingly, I was a mix of everything they are except Co-D, which they have.

          10. lickemtomorrow says:

            BC30, maybe you are not CoD because neither of your parent’s are narcissists?

            I feel like that is the basis of CoD, or it certainly feeds into it.

            How exciting that you got some answers and both your parent’s agreed 🙂 I wonder what they think of their results? Were they surprised? Did you guess right?

            It’s fun to get the feedback after sharing you were putting them through it.

          11. BC30 says:

            I’m not Co-D because they are both Empaths, but I suspect each of them had one Narcissist parent/caregiver. However, I’m certain my paternal grandmother was an empath. She was murdered by her, likely Lesser, partner.

            My parents weren’t surprised by their results and 100% support ardor for HG/his teachings.

            All of my schools and cadres are proportional to that of my parents. In fact when I delayed in sending my father the questionnaire his partner frantically messaged me and told me to send it immediately because my dad was screaming while walking about the house, demanding his survey. Geyser much? 😂

          12. lickemtomorrow says:

            BC30, that is a terrible story about your grandmother. It must have been quite a tragedy for your father as an empath 🙁

            I laughed at his reaction to wanting his survey 😛 I’m guessing you can relate.

            Thank you for sharing more BC30. It’s the first time I think I’ve entered a discussion here where it was about the parent’s being empaths and taking the empath detector rather than the narc detector test! Good news <3

          13. A Victor says:

            BC30, I had been wondering where you were! Nice to hear from you. I have asked HG about empaths on a consult also, I would like to commission him to write about it, maybe someday, a girl can dream right?

            Yes, you are blessed to have two parent’s to put through the EDC!! Lucky lady!! And I am only happy for you!

            It is fascinating that you are such a mix of them both, wow! Who would have thought, but it explains your enormous group of schools and cadres maybe. I think it is shocking that I am even an empath, given what my parent’s are/were. I must’ve come by my schools and cadres genetically more than learning them, clearly. And I am not spread as broadly as you, having only two schools and 3 cadres. It is so interesting.

        3. Bubbles says:

          Dearest leelasfuelstinks,
          Thanks exactly what my first spouse did to me.
          No sex !
          Being an ACON, I already felt worthless, he just confirmed it even further.
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Oh my goodness, Bubbles! So sorry what happened to you. I only got a little psychological taste of this awful, barbaric abuse. Self-esteem crushing! Barbaric! 🤮

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            By the way: No sex is one of THE deal breakers for me in a relationship, comes even before cheating.

          3. Bubbles says:

            Dearest leela,
            Thanks sweet one, it’s ok, ’twas soooooo long ago. I remember dribs n drabs, but I certainly don’t dwell on it. That’s only ONE of the reasons I left him.
            I look at what happened in a ‘positive’ light. It made me who I am today and I’m actually very pleased with myself. I guess that’s why I could handle lockdown and quarantine with ease.
            We all need deal breakers leela, I have a long list of them now, I can’t be bothered with people’s nonsense any more.

            If a person cheats, they really don’t care about you……..their actions are literally telling you I DON’T CARE, THATS WHY I’M WILLING TO RISK HURTING YOU AND
            IF YOU TAKE ME BACK, THEN YOURE PRETTY STUPID, AREN’T YOU ?
            One needs to ask …”did they cheat in the first place ?” 🤔
            If they cared, you’d find a resolution ‘together’

            Withholding sex is the result of learned emotional, mental and psychological abuse and as you said trauma based, not to mention the silent treatment associated with it …….. rejection truly crushing !

            Interesting examples I came upon that make sense ……
            If she doesn’t feel like it because of an argument that ended NOT ABUSIVE
            She rejects sex after an argument that took place a week ago ABUSIVE
            She refuses sex because of a medical condition NOT ABUSIVE
            She refuses to seek treatment for a condition that prevents sex ABUSIVE
            She refuses to offer alternate means of pleasure when she can’t have sex ABUSIVE
            It’s just a pity I didn’t have the Internet back then to understand what I was dealing with ……now we’re all the wiser !
            Glad to see your woman power is alive n kicking 💪
            Hugs to you lovely 🤗
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          4. Eliza says:

            #CarriersUnite I like to think we step in and take care of things sometimes because its the Smart thing to do. Isn’t it easier to step in earlier than letting things blowing up ? At least if it affects me and my life, otherwise I can let things fall as long as it wont reflect on me.
            I HAVE to think of it that way, I cant stand to think of myself as a doormat.

          5. A Victor says:

            Hi Eliza, have you done the EDC? I don’t think all empaths are doormats, only a certain type.

        4. Eternity says:

          Leela, totally agree. I felt the same way. I though there was something wrong with me. Now I don’t care I got used to sleeping in a bed alone for years, now I left him and I enjoy sleeing alone, for now anyways.

        5. BC30 says:

          Too bad, so sad DEs will go elsewhere. Narcs won’t admit the truth to themselves! Magical Thinking

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            It is very clear and very obvious that a Dirty Empath will go elsewhere. But that´s not the reason why I escaped. The reason was that this method is per se self-esteem crushing! Even without being a Dirty Empath. It just destroys self-esteem because you start to question yourself anyway: Too old? Too fat? Too thin? Not good enough? Why the fuck?

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            You know, it is already enough to “withhold” with WORDS only: to only tell you that you would withhold, to subtly suggest that “you are not worthy enough”, to ALWAYS point out how morally correct and superior you are, especially knowing that long time ago, young Leela had a promiscuous streak 😉 🤭 Then it´s peanuts to undermine your ego by holding moral lectures again and again and so, subtly tell you, what a dirty disgusting slut you are 🤦‍♀️ The message was this: Leela, you´re a dirty, disgusting whore and not worthy, but just good enough as wanking material. HOW DEGRADING IS THAT?!!! 🤮🤮🤮🤮

            Of course I lash out! THIS was already more than enough and my heart goes out to all the IPPSes and former IPPSes who also physically had to endure this barbaric torture! 😢❤

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            That is horrendous! Triangulation was really cruel to me because of my jealousy traits. This son of a narc started triangulating me with a swimsuit model on social media. If you ever have any slight self-esteem issues about your body, do not engage with a somatic. Instead of begging, crying, or feeling inadequate, I said fuck this moron. I am happy about my body, it is what it is so I don’t need an asshole to make me feel like I am not good enough. PS: bikini model was also triangulated later with a not-so-modeling lady, it just shows you it’s all about controlling you.

          4. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I got triangulated by my Patri Narc with swimsuit models. He´s also a Somatic. I was ten years old and he said that I was “too fat”. And I got triangulated with bikini- and swimsuit models 🤮

            Mr. Wanker triangulated me with religious conservative women, the “Madonna-types”, while of course I was the sluttish whore because I like sex and because I was promiscuous when I was young(er). They always triangulate you with the opposite of you. With what you are EXACTLY NOT!

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I was fat when I was ten years old hahaha! I am very skinny now so he could never say that to me, in my experience he triangulated me with everything. Even a bold gay guy. He doesn’t care he just wanted to prove he is popular and wanted. But the ones that stung were obviously the upgraded versions of me or what I perceived as such. But I enjoy thinking they must have hated me too because it is clear he triangulated some of them with me. The point is to feel that everyone is crazy for you and craving your attention.

          6. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I was a bit chubby back then, now athletic. 💪 No matter what you are, they always triangulate you with what you are NOT! 🤪

          7. BC30 says:

            Absolutely I have gorgeous raven hair but that ass hole number two what compare me to those tiny blonde actress all the time. They will find any other way to try and precious

          8. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Same here. All the time triangulated with blonde, tanned gym bunnies. I´m ginger. 👩‍🦰

          9. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I’m blonde 🤣

          10. leelasfuelstinks says:

            So, you get triangulated with gingers 😂🤪

          11. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I actually did. The other professor is red-haired! Hahaha

          12. BC30 says:

            Oh you should’ve heard me squeal with delight! One of my bestie ride or die, hide the bodies BFFs is a red head and I tell her all the time she’s a unicorn.

            Sidenote, I got into an argument with number two because he swore up and down that only fair skinned white Caucasian people could have red hair and refused to believe that other races could have red hair. After I sent him proof, he went on some ridiculous argument about how he was talking about DNA 🧬 sequences yada yada blah blah blah because as you know they can never admit that they’re wrong.

            What really and truly struck me as odd and pitiful was that although it’s pretty rare for a darker skinned people to have red hair. They are out and about, they are out in public, but somehow he never paid enough mind to others notice their existence.

          13. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Also African and Asian people can have red hair. It´s more of a “rusty” reddish brown but they indeed can be redheads.

          14. BC30 says:

            That is correct. Hahaha I remember the 404 on his face when he saw photos! Surprised he didn’t accuse me of photoshop 😂

          15. A Victor says:

            The summer narc was constantly triangulating me with gingers, he loved them, lots of them. I heard about them all the time. I didn’t know what triangulating was then but now I would drop him like a hot rock, so many red flags, so obvious, right from the start.

          16. leelasfuelstinks says:

            My ULA Somatic ex loved the blondes. Not even the natural blondes but that typical “beach girl” with BLEACH-blonde hair and deep tan (which is not possible in a natural blonde, they have fair skin).

          17. A Victor says:

            My ex loved women. He once told me sex with a fat (his wording, not mine) woman was better! There’s a triangulation for you! And that one actually bothered me a bit! There is just no winning with these people.

          18. leelasfuelstinks says:

            He does not love women, he HATES us! They are MISOGYNISTS! Most of them.

          19. A Victor says:

            This conversation made me realize my first ex triangulated me, with a tiny brunet former gf, with a girl he cheated on me with, with his mother (!), and other various women. He also lied constantly, his second wife once told me “How can we do anything, when he lied all the time, all the time!” Haha, it wasn’t just me and I probably just confirmed yet another narc in my life. Great.

          20. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I’m not that sure, he triangulated me with another female professor who looked like me with different hair color… oh wait, IT WAS THE HAIR COLOR! Haha I need to give some thought to your theory…

          21. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Same here, sister. It was the blondes all the time. Those typical “Barbie-Types”. Not exactly what I am: 👩‍🦰 Call me carrot top 😉 😂

          22. HG Tudor says:

            How about fire crotch?

          23. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Aw yeeeees, how can we forget about THIS ONE? Of course! 😂😂😂😂

          24. A Victor says:

            I think whatever we are, they will always triangulate us with something different. My ex didn’t do it regarding looks but he did regarding other things, like once he said “Well, she would never approach her husband like that.” It hurt, it wasn’t about appearance, it was about me, like my character.

          25. Sweetest Perfection says:

            The issue for me is with the action, not the object. Just the idea of making you relative to someone else repulses me, so instead of trying to compete and fight for his attention, I leave.

          26. A Victor says:

            Oh, yes, thank you for explaining that. It has been hard to put my finger on why it’s so devaluing, I could feel it of course. Yes, that makes sense.

          27. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I realized autocorrect typed bold and not bald. Yippee another mistake! What a week.

          28. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Hahahah it’s true! They triangulate you with the opposite or whatever you are. They really know how. But… whilst they can give jt, they certainly can’t take it in return.

          29. A Victor says:

            Do mid rangers, specifically MMR, tend to triangulate less than Lessers? It was constant with summer narc, from the beginning but my ex didn’t do it nearly as often. Same with future faking. Or is it just a thing that manipulations vary from narc to narc?

          30. A Victor says:

            Nothing bad or sad about it. 😂

        6. Kiki says:

          So very true

          Kiki

    2. Eternity says:

      Leela, well it looks like your Super came out good for you! always lashed out and was told I was crazy.. I defended mysel all the time! I don’t have high Super traits though according to the ED , but I let him have all the time . Enough is enough right ?

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Absolutely! As mentioned, I only got a little taste and only mentally of this kind of abuse. Couldn´t help LASHING OUT! Me not worthy of it?? FUCK OFF! Insane misogynistic, sick WANKER! 🤮

        1. Eternity says:

          Leela , sometimes that is what you have have do! Who needs this crap anyways. There is enough stress going on in the world.

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Totally agree. We don´t need that narc-shit! 🤢

      2. A Victor says:

        Eternity, can I ask if you have high Geyser traits? If not, I understand.

        1. Eternity says:

          A Victor , the ED showed 0% Geyser is that bad ?

          1. A Victor says:

            No, not at all! I was just curious because you said you defended yourself, I just wondered if it was due to Geyser. Maybe your Super brought it out. I’m just trying to figure out how all the empath schools and cadres look, how they mix together.

          2. Eternity says:

            A Victor, I know I get curious myself. We are different in our own. I am just loud ! It is my Europeon background I guess.

          3. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Geyser makes you a badass 😉 😂😎

          4. Eternity says:

            Ha ha , I can get very very nasty if I really want to Leela, just don’t get on my bad side. If you do you are completely done with me, there is no turning back . I will give you my whole heart and take it back in a heartbeat.

          5. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Hahaha, me too! We´re kick-ass Empaths! 😉

          6. A Victor says:

            We just need to be slow in giving our whole-heart. In the past I gave it within a month. Very bad.

          7. Eternity says:

            A Victor , that is ok it is not bad that is just who we are in general. A broken heart will eventually mend. You will give it to someone one day that will appreciate it ,they will give you their’s in return . Till then just be careful.

          8. A Victor says:

            I’m only a little bit bad-ass. 😂 My youngest daughter! Badddd-asssss!!! To the core! And I love that trait in her!

          9. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Maybe she´s Super?

          10. BC30 says:

            No. There is no bad or good. We are all a unique mix of empathic and narcissistic traits. ❤️

          11. Eternity says:

            I completely agree BC30. I do however get very emotional at times. Sometimes I need to cry but I can’t get it out . I get angry instead . We are all different and special.

  8. jasmin says:

    How does the contagion empath stand when it comes to empathic and narsissistic traits?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      They have both.

      1. jasmin says:

        Yes, of course!😉 I meant how they stand with regard to variety/number and strength. Sorry for not being specific and thank you for reply.

        1. Alexissmith2016 says:

          At a guess Jasmin, I imagine it would vary not only depending on their mix of other schools but also depending on who they are with. For example, if they are with an N and absorbing their emotions, their own N traits will be lowered at that time. If they are surrounded by good people their N and E traits can both shine in a healthy way.

          Of course this is just a guess based on the knowledge I have gained. HG has written very little about the contagion and we all wait in anticipation.

          1. jasmin says:

            RE: “For example, if they are with an N and absorbing their emotions, their own N traits will be lowered at that time.”
            Interesting! That’s quite the opposite to other schools then!?

            Yes, the contagion school and the matyr cadre are just slightly mentioned. Even if the contagion is the rarest school in majority, it still exist most empaths (the 3 strand of emaphy) so it would be interesting to read about.

          2. emc2gion says:

            I’m a Contagion with a little Super. In terms of being around others it’s all about energy. I can handle being around narcs for a time, but the constant feeling of having to balance the energy and the need to retreat and diffuse this, is exhausting at times and requires hermiting to rebalance self. I don’t necessarily lower my own narcissistic traits around a narc, sometimes I reflect their energy at to not absorb it, it’s very dense. If I have been pushed too far, I can utilise their energy back onto them…till they fall. If this happens I rarely let them near me again…doesn’t stop them trying though….and the constant deflection of having contact is draining. Being around good ppl is lovely, but can also be overwhelming energetically, I need nature, solitude and water to balance myself either way. (If that makes sense)

          3. Leigh says:

            emc2gion, thank you for sharing this.

          4. WiserNow says:

            That makes total sense to me emc2gion. I feel the same. The feeling of exhaustion and the need to rebalance or re-energise happens to me too.

            Years ago, before I knew about narcissism, I worked in a job where I was surrounded by narcissists or at least very narcissistic people. I remember walking into that office on my first day of working there, before I had met any of my colleagues and before I knew anything about the office culture and the dynamics etc. As soon as I walked in there, I distinctly felt there was a heavy, negative energy there. It was like walking into an atmosphere that was distinct in the way it made me feel. As you say, it felt dense. Other words I would use to describe it personally are: burdensome, grim, joyless.

            It’s difficult to describe energy in words – it’s a feeling or sensation that comes from the body rather than the mind. It is not a thought or a realisation – to me anyway. It is a bodily sensation but not as factual or tangible as the sensation of touching something or having someone touch you. It is every bit as ‘real’ though.

          5. BC30 says:

            Ditto.

          6. jasmin says:

            That makes very much sense to me Emc2gion. Thanks for sharing.
            May I ask you; If you can’t retreat and find solitude, but find yourself in a noisy environment with much movement, can you then ‘turn of’ your surroundings? So that you enter some kind of ‘bubble’ were you ‘recharge’.

        2. Leigh says:

          Jasmin, this is a great question and I hope Mr. Tudor gives us more info on the Contagion empath soon. I think Alexis is right. I think it varies on who the Contagion empath is around. The Contagion empath tends to absorb the emotions of the people around them.

          In the blog post, Three Strands of Empathy, Mr. Tudor briefly talks about the emotional contagion. Below is a link:

          https://narcsite.com/2019/12/10/the-three-strands-of-empathy-11/

          Here is also a link to discussion a bunch of us had about the Contagion empath. There are a lot of comments on this thread but it might be worth the read to see everyone’s take on the Contagion empath.

          https://narcsite.com/2021/04/17/interview-pink-pill-channel/

          1. jasmin says:

            Thank you so much Leigh.
            I will read the discussion about the contagion in the pink pill channel.😉

          2. Contagious says:

            I am dying to hear more on contagion empaths being mostly one and some carrier And matyre with a bit of standard and geyser. It’s so confusing. The feelings you get right off the bat. You know yet ignore them sometimes, But you know instinctively that a narc is in your life. How to deal with it. Hello HG

    2. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

      Hi jasmin,

      I too am a contagion. You are correct when you say you are more likely To reflect the other person. If they are angry – you feel it coursing through you equally and rather than be intimidated reflect this back at a person.

      I too often wonder where my empathic and narc traits begin and end, and how much is from those around me. Negativity shrouded my ex like a cloak and it did have a profound effect on me. I also realise that I seemed to attract more narc’s around me for some reason.

      I would have said our narcissistic traits would fluctuate with our environment. If you are around people who thrive on success – then the residue of their emotions will have an impact. I expect we may be least likely to ever intentionally hurt another – due to the feedback loop. You will feel the pain and distress just as badly. I also find I am less likely to burden others with my own problems.

      Just a question from one contagion to another – are you feeling a sense of turmoil and anxiety in your environment at the moment? Just a general feeling from others as you walk down the street. Almost like an undercurrent in the general population?

      1. jasmin says:

        Hi PAWA!

        I just have to clarify that I haven’t made the EDC and I don’t know what school/schools I belong to. From the brief information provided about the contagion I feel that I can relate and that’s why I am asking and want to understand how it operates.

        It was very interesting to read your comment. It had me wiew a context rather then occasional occasions – very helpful! Funny, I remembered narc2 asking me if ‘I was waiting for the roof to fall down’?!😅
        It appeared to him that I was looking at the roof, but I didn’t, my eyes just rested on it. I’m in ‘blanc’. Can you relate to that? Do you know if it’s part of the contagion?

        With regard to “not burden others with my own problem”. When I feel bad, I isolate myself. I may not even awnser the phone coz I know the will ask: -how are you? and I don’t want to lie nor do I want to tell.. I call them back when I’m feeling good again.

        I feel positive energi when I’m walking in the street at the moment. I guess most people are happy with summer, vacation and more social life again after a long time of social restrictions?!

        Best regards

        1. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

          Hi Jasmin,

          Yes I do relate to ‘blanc’. Where you are just feeling and not thinking 🙂

          I too have not taken the EDC. I know I am contagion – but can only guess I may be Saviour – would be intresting to do – just to see what comes out.

          I think people know if they are contagion – it is not something you cannot know. I met someone who was also contagion and it was the most fascinating experience. Without looking at each other – or speaking – there was an exchange of communication based on energy flowing between us. Not romantic or sexual in any way. There was a purity to it.

          I think I drove my ex crazy. We would be watching something and all of a sudden feel anger or annoyance from him. In questioning what was wrong – I began to understand he had problems with empathy. He had a problem with people crying in particular. If hurt or in pain – he got – if did not like. He could not understand how intense feeling of joy, laughter or relief caused people to cry (he got the concept – but did not really understand why).

          I asked if he had never laughed so much – the tears rolled down… he looked at me as if I had just grown a second head.

          I too withdraw and may not answer the phone. My friends are used to it and will put it down to my creative processes. I have to admit to letting them think this is the reason (I work when I withdraw anyway) – if they need me I will pick it up in a text and drop everything.

          It is nice hearing someone else needs to do this and understand how overwhelmed we can get by it. I just cannot be round other people constantly – I find it so draining.

          It must be just where I am living right now. Thinking about it – I have been away and did not get the same vibes that I am getting here 😉

          Good chatting with you 🙂

          1. jasmin says:

            Hi PAWA,

            Yes, no thoughts just a state of calm and peace.

            I don’t know if I am a contagion!? I know that the contagion element exists in me, but I don’t know how strong it is.

            About crying; from my understanding crying remindes them of the creature. The feeling of being weak and vulnerable. They see you as weak and vulnerable and contempt for you arises. Same for all that can be regarded as weak and vulnerable; children, oldeary, sick and injured, animals.

            Our conversation has really got my head spinning in so many areas.

            I’ve been thinking about what you said about anger. I’m more like to try to choke the fire. There are situations when I respond with anger or get annoyed. I’ve reached the conclusion that I do so if I feel that my boundaries are overstept or if I feel unfairly treated in some way.

            I wounder, with regard to your experience with narsissists, do you feel their fake emotion or the real emotion behind?
            I can recall one time when narc2 made an apology, he made a huge force and appeared utterly convinced, but I felt no remorse. All I felt was contempt. As if his narsissism were saying “- Am I really have to lowered myself to this level for you. You will have to pay for this later”
            But this is a excepción, when my dad was playing his sympathy symfonis I felt very sad – even if he wasn’t. I went to my own experience of sadness.
            I felt their fake love as if it was real and believed their lies. I can see afterwards that the ‘force’ and the ‘extreme convinsment’ is the hallmark of their lies.

            I’m also curious about the contagion and music. I find music highly enjoyable, it can really touch my emotions and even change my emotional state. Sometimes I use music as a tool. If I’m feeling stressed and wish to calm down then I’ll lissen to classic or new age music. If I’m nervous and want to encourage myself then I choose something rough, like rap and so on. However, I can’t change feelings of sadness for feelings of happiness through ‘happy’ music. It will only cause annoyance. I think the contrast is to great!

            Nice chatting with you too!

          2. jasmin says:

            Hello PAWA,

            I wrote a reply on saturday but when I entered to respond to emc2gion I noticed that the message was not sent and not awaitening moderation. I must have pushed the backwards button too fast after sending the message.

            Yes, it is a state no thoughts just a feeling of calm and peace.

            I have seen myself as a HSP. (Test by Elaine N. Aron.) From what read 15-20 percent of population are highly sensitive – quite large minority, whilst the contagion is extremely rare.. I struggle to understand what’s the difference?

            From my understanding crying remindes them of the creature. The feeling of being weak and vulnerable. They see you as weak and vulnerable and therefore contempt for you arises. Same for all that can be regarded as weak and vulnerable; children, oldeary, sick and injured, animals.

            I’ve been thinking about what you wrote about anger. When someone directs anger at me, my common response will be one of trying to choke the fire. Those times I react with annoyance or anger back it will be either because of I feel that my boundaries are overstept or because I feel that I’ve been unfairly treated in some way.

            May I ask, you with regard to the narcissist, do you tend to feel their fake (or supposed) emotion or their real emotion behind?
            When my dad playes his Sympathy Symphonies I found myself feeling sad even if he isn’t. I turn to my own experience of sadness and adopt that sentimental state.
            I felt their fake love as if it was real and I often believed their lies. So more often than not, I feel the fake emotion. However,
            I recall one time when narc2 made an apology, even if he made a huge force and appeared utterly convinced, I felt no remorse – all I felt was contempt.
            If his narcissism would have been allowed to speak it would probably have said something like: -“Am I really have to lower myself to this level for you. You will have to pay for this later.”
            I recognise afterwards that ‘the force’ and extreme convinsment is their hallmark.

            Can’t be around people all the time either. When I am, I do withdraw short times ‘take some air’😉

            Nice chatting with you too 😊

        2. emc2gion says:

          Jasmine & Psychologyandworldaffairs,
          I call it hermitting. I used to think I was just strange for doing so, then I thought I was introverted, now I know I’m introverted & contagion empath. I avoid phone calls a lot. Not because I’m frightened. It’s a way for energy to travel, I used to relate to the movie the matrix because of this. ppl tend to call me when they want to download/ talk about their problems and I feel exhausted afterwards because they unconsciously transfer this energy onto me.
          Spring and summer time the energy of ppl definitely change to happier, except in ongoing heatwaves. Winter energy is nice at the start but heavy by then end. When first rains come after a drought I feel bursts of ppls joy…..even the joy of the grass in a sense. At the moment the energy from covid is in the background, fear and worry plus frustration, I feel it intensely at times, so I have to block and shield a lot.
          You’re welcome Leigh, I often wonder if I should share my thoughts regarding Contagion on here, I find it hard to open up at times, due to energy attachment

          1. WhoCares says:

            emc2gion,

            “I often wonder if I should share my thoughts regarding Contagion on here, I find it hard to open up at times, due to energy attachment.”

            I am just following along in this conversation and wanted to say I appreciate you sharing your experience as a Contagion Empath.

            It’s interesting. I always read the comments of two past contributors – Twilight and Windstorm – who are Contagion, and it was so educational. What you’ve shared is very similar to their experiences too. I understand that even the emotions expressed in the blog comments can linger and affect you, so again: thank-you.
            The energy shifts connected to the seasons, that you describe, are particularly fascinating.

          2. Leigh says:

            I can see how it can be a blessing and a curse. I have a very small percentage of Contagion. I’ve noticed over the years though, it has gotten a little more heightened. For the most part, I need to be in your immediate vicinity to feel your energy and if I remove myself, it’s gone immediately. Every once in awhile watching something on TV will affect me. My daughter was telling me about the Afghani citizens trying to escape Afghanistan and I immediately shutdown. I had to ask her to stop. I felt their anguish. That was a first for me. Do you find that as your getting older or maybe now because you are more enlightened, that the Contagion is more heightened?

            If I’m overstepping and you don’t want to answer, I understand. I apologize if I’ve caused a shift in your energy at all.

            Thank you again for sharing.

          3. A Victor says:

            Emc2gion,
            Thank you for sharing. I also ‘hermit’, a good way to put it. I have no Contagion but I can relate so much to your description of the energies. It overwhelms, hence the hermitting. Now I need to find out why you and I, from different schools, have the same response. My truthseeker trait is my strongest, haha, I fear I will never run out of questions! Very interesting discussion. Thank you again.

          4. emc2gion says:

            Thanks WhoCares,

            I also read Twilight and Windstorms comments after I found out I was a Contagion, reading their comments was comforting in a sense because it was nice to know others had similar experience and I wasn’t so alone. I haven’t met another Contagion empath in person yet.

            I used to think I was crazy because I could FEEL comments or text messages….and the intent behind them. I guess each person carries an energetic code and that attaches. Yes energy shifts connected to the seasons etc is fascinating. My body gets physically affected by them a lot especially with barometric pressure change, my body reacts a day or two before a change. A lot of ppl with arthritis also are affected by changes, if that helps you understanding that feelings are just extensions of this.

            As a contagion to cope, I’m not sure this has been brought up before, but I use colour to cope. I’m an artist by hobby and painting/ creating with colour and texture to a degree is cathartic. I use colour to calm my emotions. So my home is filled with earthy organic natural colours, with blue and green hues…(I find these colours most calming personally) deep earthy hues and tones are very grounding. So my home environment is very important to stabilise my emotions. Some visitors say it’s like a Hobbit House. Another way to sooth and diffuse energy is through scent. I use essential oils a lot.

          5. jasmin says:

            Emc2gion,
            Thank you for sharing.
            I feel the same changes with seasons shifts.
            With regard to avoiding phonecalls – it depend who is calling.😅

        3. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

          Jasmin

          I think my comment made to WN was also in moderation for a time. If you look at what I say there – you will see our response to anger is not so different 🙂

          With regards to narcissists – I have been evaluating this recently. Unless they are deliberately dishonest – our contagion element does not help in the first stages of meeting. They do not know what they are and believe in what they are saying – it reflects their resulting emotion.

          You feel their attraction to you and you feel their want to be close to you. Your desire is reflected in their eyes. There is no lie in this – they do feel this way. They are getting what they need from you at this moment in time.

          If they tell you they are really into – say rock music – but hate it – than you will know. But not all narcissists will do this. If they say they love children – but you feel intense dislike from them when children are with you – you know.

          So your reading of that person depends entirely on their emotions. Your ability to make judgements stems from these factors.

          As things progress than you begin to have awareness. They do begin to lie and it is very obvious to the contagion. How we as individuals deal with this knowledge will be different based on our ideology.

          I do feel their real emotions – not what is projected. They can smile and act happy – but I will know if it is a front. But you have to know that people put on fronts all the time and it is not always about manipulation. A mother losing her job – acting happy at her 5 year olds birthday party etc. It is about context also.

          We are great at staying away from very toxic people and pick up bad vibes very easily. But it does not make us infallible. When we do get ensnared – it may actually cause us more harm.

          I love music although there are some songs I try to stay away from lol – 2 recent examples = James Blunt – Monsters and No Bravery, unless I am alone and can cry without an audience 😉

          I have not thought about music to change my mood. Might be a good experiment. Haha I tend to choose based on how I am feeing.

          It feels good to talk about this with another contagion 🙂

      2. WiserNow says:

        Hi PAWA,

        Thank you for explaining this. Your comments about the contagion element are interesting.

        “You are correct when you say you are more likely To reflect the other person. If they are angry – you feel it coursing through you equally and rather than be intimidated reflect this back at a person.”

        I can understand that you feel the emotion in your own body and that you are not necessarily intimidated, however, in my own personal experience, if it’s a situation where my empathy is activated, I don’t reflect the same emotion back at the person.

        Instead, I try to bring some kind of balance. So, if the other person is angry, my instinctive reaction is to calm them. If the person is feeling sad, my instinctive reaction is to cheer them up or give them support. If the person is confused, I feel an urge to clarify or explain.

        On the other hand, if – for some reason – my empathy is not activated, because previous attempts to bring balance haven’t worked, or there are other reasons, then my instinctive reaction will be different.

        Please know that I’m not contradicting you. I am replying to your comment here because it made me think about my own instinctive reaction, which I find is quite different. We are all different and our responses or reactions can be different from day to day. I think it’s interesting to think or recognise these differences.

        To answer your question about feeling turmoil or anxiety in the environment – yes, I feel it. To me, it has a lot to do with the pandemic. That – I feel – has caused a kind of domino or ripple effect and it has caused uncertainty and stress in a more general sense. When I am in public, I feel a kind of subtle sense of dread in general.

        1. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

          Hi WN,

          Thank you for joining the discussion 🙂

          You make some valid points. I know I am likey to be extreme, I have a real problem in being affected by peoples emotion.

          With anger I think it is largly a distinction of degrees. The expression of anger usually occurs when we feel wronged in some way. It can be deemed a healthy response – as long as it is appropriately expressed.

          If I have done something to cause it – then I will apologise – a fuller apology when the air is not crackling around me too much – because the emotion colours my prospective in the moment. If the anger is directed at me and is uncalled for – then yes it will be reflected back.

          Anger at a boss or directed at another is different again. You can instantly feel if it is you or not. You ask questions, what you feel is redirected on their behalf. Talking about it does help the person get it out of their system and your own response mirroring the emotion actually helps. (funny when you reflect and they say – it was not as bad as all that – or I do not think they meant it). Not that I think about it in any meaningful way – it is just what happens.

          Sadness I personally find is not a strong emotion. It is as if it lingers in the background. An echo of a loss of someone or something. The mind dwelling on it. Not something a cuppa and chat can fix. They have to be the one’s to let it go. Sure you can alleviate – by focusing on an engaging subject which takes the persons mind away – but it will return when their thoughts return to it.

          I know I react too much to others emotions rather than think through the processes – I think it is a credit to you – that you are able to do so. Something I very much need to work on 🙂

        2. psychologyandworldaffairs says:

          Hi emc2gion,

          I like the term hermitting – very apt. It is good to hear your thoughts, I think contagions have it hard. Emotions – particularly strong ones use up energy. Replicating it in our own bodies – would suggest we would be constantly using up our energy supplies.

          It took me awhile to understand the effect some people had on my psyche and how it was manifesting. I too cut all but a few close friends out of my life. Not all were narc’s – but still causing me to react in ways I did not like. Doing so I gained the balance I was craving.

          I cannot immagine feeling on a world scale (big hugs) – I find it hard enough coping on a local level. I would love to live in a place a little more remote 😉

        3. emc2gion says:

          Hi WiserNow,
          For me reflecting energy depends on the context and environment, well a number of factors really, My own emotional state and health etc. If a person I’m close to is angry about something, my empathy kicks in and I will absorb part of their energy to diffuse and then help calm/ balance. If this person is directing their anger towards me, I will shield. If a person is pushing their anger on me and it’s for no reason, I will block. However if a person is highly narc or narc and continues to push their negative energy on me I will reflect to stop it, this in itself can balance the energy or stop it altogether, if that makes sense

      3. Emc2gion says:

        Psychologyandworldaffairs, I used to worry I was just like them, narc wise, until I realised I was reflecting their energy, and they sure don’t like it. I attract narcs as well, but I know what they are, most narcs don’t know what I am, but are drawn to me unconsciously. I avoid these days as much as possible. I don’t just feel turmoil and anxiety in my home environment, but globally. It’s very intense. I’m trying to diffuse it and add calm, otherwise I get quite upset and cry a lot. I am having trouble sleeping because of it. I have to immerse myself in water, lavender and Epsom salts help. If I’m around highly narc ppl or a narc, a lot I get scattered emotionally if I don’t put my boundaries up. I did have an encounter a few years back and I’m pretty sure it was a greater, our energies merged when we were close to each other and it was a really really strong pulling feeling. It took most of my strength to avoid/ fight it off and I have never felt like that with other narcs….well nowhere near that degree.
        Hi Jasmin, I moved to a quiet country town to avoid the busy life the city offers it’s very overwhelming. Yes I can turn the energy absorption down to a degree. I use hyper focus. This may sound odd bit I will try to explain as best I can, I focus my attention on things like the clouds moving in the sky, or leaves rustling in the breeze on a tree, bees buzzing on flowers in a sidewalk garden, watch water movement from a bridge, or find somewhere cool and shady. If it’s really full on not so much. Say an ICU unit in a hospital in a major city for a day or more, that’s hard. What I normally do is hold my own energy strongly internally to cope. Then I require a few days downtime because of exhaustion. I read a lot of ppl curious about the contagion empath. Sometimes I wish I wasn’t, gifts and all, it’s overwhelming at times especially if you don’t know how to shield, block, deflect and diffuse energy. Although I am also curious to see HG write about the Contagion empath, and check in from time to time to see if he has.

        1. Wendy says:

          Emc2gion, thanks for explaining this. It sounds like the energy of the environment and others gets very intense for you! I am still learning about all of this. I can relate somewhat to what you are saying.

          I’ve noticed that in my life there are only a few people that I can feel very comfortable with and that I can be my true self with. The energy with them is so pure and honest. Very positive. I can’t bear to see them hurt or in pain. I feel it deeply.

          I can sense in most people very soon after getting in their presence who they are and if they are “safe.” My guard doesn’t come down easily and if they are negative or dishonest/fake I pick up on it immediately. I cannot be around them for long. It’s almost unbearable the vibrations that they are sending. The energy is so thick and uncomfortable that I have to remove myself. I can see a person walking down the street and sense the pain they are in and it will bring me to tears. If someone is truly genuine I know it and feel the walls coming down around me.

          My question is why then I couldn’t sense the dishonesty and fakeness of my ex narcissist immediately like I normally do with people? I mean red flags came pretty soon but that energy that I normally pick up on very soon with people that are fake didn’t happen with him.
          Are they really that good of actors and manipulators? I guess so. Maybe I felt it but convinced myself that it wasn’t true because I didn’t want it to be true.

          Thanks for sharing your post it made me think about myself and why I have those strong almost overwhelming feelings around certain people. And even animals I am very sensitive to how they feel. Still unclear about what type of empath I am. I do feel like I have strong narcissist traits sometimes with certain people! Especially “fake” people.

          Happy weekend! 😊

          1. jasmin says:

            I used to think the same. That my sensitivity had me take note of the ‘small’ signs and gave me an advantage.
            It was a trap. I felt too confident and lowered my gard.

            Why we fail to act on our instinct with the narcs? I think it is all down to the addiction! How were we supposed to beat an addition unawere of it’s existence?

          2. wensical says:

            That makes sense. The addiction is unbelievable!

          3. A Victor says:

            Jasmin, your comments here in relation to the addiction are thoughts I have also had. It was initially shocking and defeating to hear the term “addiction” used for my attraction to narcissists. I was so surprised that I came back as an empath in part because I was so certain I did not have such an addiction. It took a while to get my head around the idea that I do and understand exactly what it means. Now I have narrowed it down to that little flicker of “hope”, an interest in someone that is heightened unnaturally. I don’t get the same sensation when I first meet a non-narcissist whether man or woman, with them the relationship grows organically, often without me seeking to grow it but over time I just realize it has happened. But when the addiction strikes with a suitable male narcissist, I want more, I want it now and I want it badly (not only in reference to sex, which is a part of it, but in reference to the bigger picture, a relationship, to feel the “love”). It is a very clear and obvious difference from the non-narc. If they are non-suitable as a romantic partner, I will still enjoy interaction with them and seek it out over that with non-narcs.

            It is different for narc women, I do not like them, I do not allow them close and I can even be quite assertive in my resistance if they push to get near me.

            My goal is to recognize and acknowledge the initial sensation more quickly and come to see that sensation as a negative thus making me want to stop those interactions immediately and not be drawn in at all. I feel like the initial red flag is my reaction right off to them. I want to understand that radar better, how do we pick up on each other, is it them spotting us and throwing out their hook? Is it always just this? Do I spot them also? Or do I simply respond?

            And, exactly, how do we beat an addiction we are not even aware of? Excellent point, the reason educating people where we can is so valuable.

          4. Leigh says:

            Hi Wendy, maybe the reason you couldn’t sense the dishonesty from your ex narc was because he believed he was being honest.
            They aren’t acting. They aren’t being fake. They think they are being genuine and thats probably the energy you felt. Remember most narcs are unaware that they are narcissists. They believe they are good people and if they do something not so good, they believe they are justified. You have to be careful of the wolf in sheep’s clothing. They really believe they are empathic. Stay here and you will learn to spot the red flags.

          5. wensical says:

            Leigh, this response has totally opened my mind to a new understanding. Thank you so much! It makes sense because I have never felt so immediately drawn to someone the way I was to him. He “believed” what he was saying and doing was the truth. So, he was not a greater or ultra with the insight of what he was. With even the knowledge of how horrible he treated me with lies and cheating I feel my heart going out to him because he has this disorder. It seems they will be seeking endlessly for that which will never be satisfied or fulfilled. It’s heartbreaking. Thanks again for the clarity!

          6. Leigh says:

            Hi Wensical, I know what you mean about feeling bad for them. Thats your emotional thinking though. As empaths, we are addicted to narcs & our emotional thinking will con us to keep thinking about and to stay in contact with the narcissist.

            Have you read any of Mr. Tudor’s books? I would suggest read as much as you can. Start with the following books: Fuel, Fury, Manipulated, Sitting Target & Your Fault. I think those books will give you a good starting point.

            Just so you know, I’m still ensnared so my emotional thinking can be high at times. I’m an ACON, Adult child of a narcissist. Both of my parents, my husband and daughter are all narcissists.

            This is a wonderful place to be to gain knowledge and freedom. I am beyond grateful to Mr. Tudor and what I’ve learned here.

          7. Contagious says:

            Thank you! I am not alone. I feel the energies of animals too and can be stressful as I have a Frenchie pup. I also find nature responds. I have had swallows come in my carport and they were like pets. Butterflies and scarabs land on me. I sound weird. But I have also had vivid odd dreams my whole life. Sadly my best friend 12 years ago was killed and I saw her time of death per LA coroner at trial. I know immediately when meeting someone how they are feeling and always attract people with problems. I ignored my ex narc as he needed me or so I thought. I was attracted … he is an artist elite mid ranger. Sim antic. But it’s odd as I find narcs confusing. They are often cold or vastness. Confirm sing to me. So best to use the mind. Follow logic. HG advice. Thank you! I don’t find many contagions here. I was mostly contagion but carrier than small amounts of standard, martyr, geyser and super too. A contagion with mutt minors!

          8. wensical says:

            Hi Contagious, I am so sorry about your friend! That’s so sad. Since a child I have had this bond with animals. I believe they are little guardian angels! Thank your for the advice and I will def keep following HG for his excellent information and all of you on this blog!

          9. jasmin says:

            Hi A Victor!

            Yes, the addiction took long time to sink in. When it finally did it awnsered so many questions!

            You make very interesting points about the initial sensations when first interacting with narsissists and how fast the desire to be near that person arises.
            My first boyfriend was a non- narc and the relationship growed slowly and stayed balanced. There were never the same intense attraction and excitement.
            For me, I seek out to interact with both men and women. There are however, many of them, that I immediately dislike and stay away from (mostley they dislike me as well). I think it’s a question of school and cadre, rather than gender.
            It appears to me that lessers and I are speaking complete different languages? I’m not stylish enough for the somatic and they in return are too shallow for my taste, for example.

            It is a good goal you have to learn to recognise the initial sensation. Hope you get there!
            Good questions there at the end of your comment.
            I know that sometimes walking in centre or a supermarket (or just anywhere) I feel attraction towards some men without even seeing their face. It’s something in the way they move! Are they narcissists? I never interact with them to tell, but I suspect it might be the case. 🤷‍♀️

          10. A Victor says:

            Hi Jasmin, I agree, the type of narcissist, school and cadre, does play a part in how I react also, I think. Lessers are a no go generally. The summer narc was one but he didn’t last long and wouldn’t get anywhere now. I’ve been a bit embarrassed that my romantic narc’s have been somatic, for the reason you mention. I’m probably too giggly for a cerebral. Haha, I’ll keep that going then!

            My mother made me very sensitive to female narcs I think.

            Yes, I have the same experience when in public, and I wonder now too. Yet if we can’t meet people in public, where can we? I will try it at some point and let you know what happens. Or you can and let me know. 😀

        2. jasmin says:

          Hi Emc2gion!

          I see nothing odd and I think that you described very well what you are doing. Would it be correct to say that hyper focus causes the other things that are happening around – emotions, movements and noises – to be something that’s happening in the ‘background’. The environment is dimmed and therefore adsorption turned down.

          However, I do experience a state when I am not taking note of what is happening in my surrounding at all. (I don’t know if someone touch me, now I’m curious about that!) I remember moments have been astonished because I found laoud screams and crying when I exited and thought -‘How could I NOT have heard that?’
          It happens when I’m feeling overloaded and longer meetings is a good example.

          Yes, information about the contagion would be very interesting to read. Also how the contagion is regarded by the narsissists!

          Thank you so much for sharing. 😊

          1. emc2gion says:

            Hi Jasmin,
            Thankyou. It’s nice to know others get what I’m saying and experience.

            I have experienced similar to what you are saying but it’s usually my last defence against being energetically overwhelmed, like a switch to stop the energy onslaught. I believe in a world of opposites (and everything in between) with balance being key. If you look into homeostasis (our bodies are always trying to balance) energy and emotions are part of this. So if things are out of balance externally I guess naturally we try to balance these internally.

            I am extremely curious of HGs interpretation and understanding of the Contagion. Perhaps he could understand the constitution of a contagion more than a Contagion themselves. I have read that Contagions are quite rare, like the greater. I’m sure I read HG hasn’t physically met one yet….but I may be mistaken. I often wonder if the Contagion Empath is the Elite Greaters complete polar opposite. I feel once HG has written more extensively on each School and Cadre of empath we will understand more.

          2. Wendy says:

            Leigh, thanks so much for sharing that with me. When I hear stories like yours and others on here I think to myself I only had six months with the narcissist and shouldn’t complain! I feel for you and others who have endured the abuse for so long and I pray you find peace anywhere and everywhere you can find it. To still be ensnared in it my heart goes out to you! But, you sound so grounded and strong. I’m glad you found HG and that you are able to give others like me such good advice.I will get the books you mentioned and read them all. Truly grateful for your comments. 😊

          3. Leigh says:

            Thank you for your kind words, Wendy. For me, the ultimate goal is to escape, which I am currently working on. Being with a narcissist is a traumatic experience whether its 6 months or 6 years. Its ok if you complain a little bit. The good thing is that you recognized early on that something wasn’t right.

          4. lickemtomorrow says:

            Jasmin, I have just been reading about this very thing in the book “Women Who Love Psychopaths”. It includes a chapter on how the narcissist/psychopath can induce a trance-like state which very much correlates with your description of how other things can fade into the background. It was compared to the state we enter when we drive and suddenly come to our exit without realizing how we got there … our mind has entered a different state as we are driving. I guess it’s the equivalent of ‘tuning out’, and we probably do that for all kinds of reasons. It surprised me to learn that the psychopath/narcissist has the ability to generate this trance-like state. I think it’s why we often walk away from these relationships wondering “what the hell just happened?” Some of that is starting to make sense for me now. I’m glad you shared those thoughts. A lot of us would be unaware of how this element of “hyperfocus” as you describe it can also be a part of these relationships.

  9. Wendy says:

    Wow! Thank you for this very intriguing breakdown. When I look back to understand what happened it makes much more sense now. He would say to me “ I feel like you just keep punching and punching me over and over.” He also told me that I was trying to “ control” the relationship. I had no idea what he was then just that what he was doing was not right. He would threaten me not to do something such as just go visit a friend and when I did it was like he was in shock. It was like every time I stood up to him he retreated further away from me. Not answering texts, silent treatment, becoming loud or overly angry when before he really held that under control. This explanation also gives me better understanding of what type of narcissist he was. Not lesser but probably mid ranger. He said to me “you are no longer the woman in this relationship but the bitch.” And he also said he needed to find someone who is “softer” and less controversial. Meaning more compliant to his BS. Amazingly, I think I would have stayed longer with him and try to “change” him. Still miss him! Ugh! So I have a lot of work to do in case he comes hoovering!

  10. leelasfuelstinks says:

    Interestingly, I have never been the primary choice of a narc. Once I was an emergency pick but narcissists were not really interested in me as IPPS. 😲 Too strong in narcissistic traits and by far not compliant enough! Besides, I am lacking two empathic traits. Narcs like me, of course, but on the shelf, please! 😂

    1. A Victor says:

      Leela, you are lucky. I seem to be a very strong magnet. 🙁

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        It´s interesting anyway. As I am Super I should be a target for IPPS. In fact, I have never been. I have always been a target for shelf-appliance 🤷‍♀️ Probably really too high in narcissistic traits, not submissive enough, not compliant enough, too proud? 🤷‍♀️ Interesting! As I read in “Sitting Target” that Supers are preferred as IPPS?

        1. BC30 says:

          It depends. My makeup makes me a challenge for UMRs and a trophy for ULs. Any other narcs who happen upon me take what they can get, but I wouldn’t have made a good IPPS as a DE. I suspect most Ns subconsciously know when an E is a DE.

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            At least in my case, I´m not a preferred IPPS. Those narcs I met, are looking for submissive, compliant, soft-hearted, warm-hearted and gullible women with low self-confidence. I don´t have a high self-esteem, but too high for some narcs 😂

          2. A Victor says:

            Interesting, maybe my second ex wanted a DE for an IPPS since he knew I’d cheated on my first husband? But he didn’t care, never worried about it. He may have known that my guilt for that would prevent me doing the same to him. Who knows. And my divorce wasn’t final, may not have even been started I can’t remember, when I met him yet he had no problem getting involved with me as a married woman. He certainly wasn’t the reason for my first divorce.

          3. BC30 says:

            Yeah I asked HG about it and it’s magical thinking they just don’t think that we would ever cheat on them regardless of whether or not we are the IPPS or the IPSS

          4. A Victor says:

            Oh, that is interesting. Then why are some so paranoid, accusing their IPPS? It must be control and/or fuel from doing so. Thank you! Just added to my list of questions but also an answer! 🙂

          5. BC30 says:

            Ya know what, AV? I look back and cringe….

            I told #2 when I started dating a politico really high up in the ranks. I think #2 thought I was making it all up.

            However, what makes it all cringeworthy isn’t that I told #2 about it or ended it with the politico because of him…

            IT’S BECAUSE #2 LOOKS AND SOUNDS LIKE A LOW RENT, KNOCK-OFF AUSTIN POWERS

            With the accent and bad teeth to boot, I wish I was kidding. I can’t look at pictures because I get so embarrassed. I wish I could show you, you’d have a great laugh. 😆

          6. A Victor says:

            Oh, lol! I love your word picture here! And I envision you as so beautiful, it would be beauty and the tiny little beast! Hahaha, thank you for sharing!! And why do we make these choices?? Our damn addiction, that’s why! Ugh. Glad there is narcsite and HG in order to get beyond it!

        2. A Victor says:

          I only thought supers were preferred as ipps for some, many subschools realizing that a super will be tempting but too much to handle. I thought it was those with Upper and the Greaters and Ultra that preferred them.

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I think so too. Lesser and Mid Rangers stand no chance! They cannot control us! 😎

          2. A Victor says:

            I think the UL and UM like them, maybe not for an IPPS though. I think my ex liked the challenge that my super gave him, an MMR. I think he came to not like it, haha!

          3. leelasfuelstinks says:

            One Somatic (unknown school) was not interested in me as IPPS at all! I got shelved. 😁 Another one, very probably Upper Mid Range Somatic, was interested only in a one night stand, was not even interesting as shelf-IPSS. 😂 For the ULA Somatic I was an emergency pick and the MMRA Elite would never ever have chosen me as IPPS or even shelf-IPSS (are there IPSSes when they´re asexual?!). Me as his wife “Oh dear, no thank you, that would be horror” was his comment 🤣

          4. A Victor says:

            Haha, yes, horror for you!! Be glad he did this and didn’t marry you, whatever his reason!

          5. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Never wanted more than a “friendship” (wanted friendship when I still didn´t know what I´m dealing with: a malignant narcissist!). I was amused when he said, theoretically a marriage with me would be horror. 😂

          6. BC30 says:

            LOL the “tiny little beast”

      2. leelasfuelstinks says:

        You know, I´m neither the motherly type, nor the giving-type of woman. I am someone who is proud, who knows what she wants and what she does not want, who knows what she deserves in life, because I worked really hard for it! I worked very hard to get there. And I know that. I´m proud of that. So, I know that I deserve better than being a “24/7 slave” for Mr. N.Arc. 🤪 HE can be proud of ME! 😁 And if he doesn´t treat me right, he does not deserve me and it´s goodbye.

        Excuse me if this sounds arrogant, just wanted to describe my attitude and I think this is the “narc repellent” in me. 😁 On the other hand, of course I have strong empathic traits, decency, honesty, compassion, caring, justice, etc. But the point is also that, I´m not a love devotee. Completely missing that trait and also missing some traits, which are written in “Sitting Target”. 🤷‍♀️ All this could be the reason why I am not suitable as IPPS, at least not for Lessers and Mid Rangers.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Leela, I am a love devotee, but I don’t take shit for very long either, and therefore I’m always on the shelf. I’m good on paper for narcs until I start noticing they try to control me and I rebel. I used to wonder how it is possible somatic narc, being as obsessed with physical appearance as he is, married his not-very-attractive wife, until I read Chained. Now I understand and am grateful for not passing the narc’s tests to be candidate IPSS. First time I’m happy to fail a test!

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Same here. I rebel too! I react with a combination of rage and passive-aggressiveness. They pay for their abuse and that´s a guarantee! 😈💪 May I ask your cadre?

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oh, I’m just a little standard with a bad attitude.

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I don’t react. I just turn off and leave. It’s like a switch. I stop feeling attraction or anything. I don’t hate them, I just can’t put up with them. And when I look back in retrospect I feel embarrassment.

          4. leelasfuelstinks says:

            VERY similar here! 😲 Exactly like a sudden switch! Enough is enough, click it´s finished! Not gonna do this to myself anymore! No more! And it´s goodbye.

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Yep. It’s crazy because I would have left everything for somatic narc. I was insanely ensnared. Until one day I got tired of his games and I went totally off. I calmly told him I didn’t need that in my life and disappeared until today. I didn’t even insult him. No dramas, nothing. I found out what he was a year later when I did the ND to confirm what I suspected. Sometimes my ET has bothered me, but I realized it was because I kept gravitating towards his group of colleagues and his workplace. Having cut that off my life has made me realize I don’t miss any of the two: him or his friends.

          6. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Same here with my ULA Somatic Ex. One fine evening, after another cruel verbal put-down, the switch flicked. No more! I got up early in the morning and packed my stuff before I went to work. Then I came home from work, I told him calmly that this is it, grabbed my stuff and left for good.

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            YES! My somatic is also an ULA!!

          8. A Victor says:

            I do this too, regarding the switch off. Lived that way for a year with my 2nd ex before he left. It was how it had to be for the finality of things. I actually was able to relax a bit that year, not having the up and down going on inside me any more. Not relaxing in other ways of course.

          9. Sweetest Perfection says:

            AV, I click off and it’s over for me, but I had to go through a thousand hoover attempts: first the posts on social media to make me jealous/nostalgic/horny? so I deactivated my social media account. Then he tried to allure me through my husband, who was still connected through social media, until my husband on his own realized he is an idiot and decided to unfriend him; then came the emails with links to music tracks he thought were gonna make me remember him, I sent his address to spam; then the random invitations to check his Spotify lists, I deleted the app; then the random walking of dogs around my department at the time I finished teaching to provoke an encounter (though I saw him first and ran the other way); then the anonymous calls or spoof calls and text messages because he was blocked but still knew my number. And finally, peace came from changing my phone number and deleting his. I swear, when I switch off, it is OFF.

          10. A Victor says:

            Wow!!! I had no idea anyone actually had hoover attempts like that! I’ve seen articles about it but not read any blog posts like that! You are strong! Didn’t it make you furious? Thank you for sharing that experience, I guess I have been very blessed in the hoover department, or lack of hoovers!

          11. Sweetest Perfection says:

            AV, I just gasped and thought about you. I just got a hoover. RIGHT NOW. From his brother. This guy is like a sticky bugger!!!

          12. A Victor says:

            Haha, did you mean sticky “booger”? 🤣

          13. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I did. Sorry, I was typing and complaining to a friend of mine hahaha. This guy emailed me back in 2017 to invite me to join a link and he just emailed me again. I can’t believe it. Wtf.

          14. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, wtf! He must’ve had a vision that you were writing about him hoovering!!! It’s not safe to even think about these people!

          15. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I actually wrote a list this morning of other hoovers he did like calling and leaving “breathing” messages or leaving a book on “different forms of love” open on my classroom desk or sending a random invitation to his Spotify selection with songs that dealt with abandonment and losing the love of your life and crazy stuff like that. Apparently the comment never got sent, I’ve been having some glitches with WordPress today. But yes, that’s the type of clown I was dealing with. If he’s using telepathy like you said I hope he gets the hint that I don’t like him anymore and I think he’s pathetic!!! And a booger! 😆

          16. A Victor says:

            Hahaha, wow, I am so sorry you are having to deal with all that! You must have better fuel than I, my hoovers have been few, very few, and pretty lame compared to yours, a fact for which I am grateful! A pathetic booger! Hahaha!

          17. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I think it is a combination of fuel and prime aims. The way I understand my position in his matrix now, he may have planned to eventually “upgrade” me. He had started introducing me to his friends and family, he started acquiring (stealing) some of my character traits, and suggested my name for a job in his department… maybe he thought it was ideal since we both are professors and work in a similar area, we would go to conferences together, he would travel to Europe with me etc etc. and then I escaped and fucked his plan. Bummer!

          18. HG Tudor says:

            Fuel is one of the prime aims.

          19. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Yes sorry, I meant fuel and other prime aims. Or, you can just go ahead and take away my university diploma since I can’t stop mixing terminology lately.

          20. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Extra Tutoring/Tudoring?

          21. A Victor says:

            SP, where does the embarrassment come from?

          22. Sweetest Perfection says:

            From falling for that Idiot with a capital I!!!

          23. A Victor says:

            Well, now I think I should feel embarrassed too…? Lol!! No, stop, he did it, not you! He predated you and sucked you into his mess!! No Idiocy about it!! 🙂

          24. A Victor says:

            Oh, wait, misread a bit 😳! You’re right, he was an IDIOT! But, still no need for you to be embarrassed! 😁

          25. Eternity says:

            A Victor, sometimes a demotion is better than s promotion ha ha Who cares My ex has a new girlfriend. I couldn’t be happier! I wish him a the best honestly

        2. A Victor says:

          Leela, not arrogant say all, just facts. It is good that you know yourself. I am coming to know myself better also and am discovering, and receiving confirmation, that I am proud, which can hurt when it’s dinged but spurs me into action at times also. And I have a strength of will, a determination, to address things that are not right and do what I can to make them right, but only when the issue is of a certain kind, many things I just let go. I perceive the letting go as a choice, because of the Super, but also as my norm, due to the Standard. When I decide to address rather than let something go, there is no passive aggressive about it. There is also no yelling, though that can build up if the matter is not resolved, and did with my ex because he liked the fuel, he encouraged it. No, it was rather a determination, for example, when I decided not to fight with him any more, for the sake of our children, it wasn’t a matter of not seeing what was going on, it was a matter of not allowing it too push me to confront him, I choose to let it go instead. But it was a choice. Or like the times I had to go to the police and go to court against narcissists because of something they’d done to a child of mine, my mindset was, “I will make this right, I will protect my child.” And there was zero dilly-dallying, once I knew, it was dealt with. So I have come to the conclusion that I have gone Supernova, quite often even, but it looks different than some others here. I think my response when I go Supernova comes largely from my dad, the UMR, cool as a cucumber, just get it done as efficiently and effectively as possible. He once asked me if I wanted someone’s legs broken, he offered to make it happen for me if I did. That was a side I’d never seen before and never saw again, shocking and amazing at the same time. He did not yell. But he was successful at what he did, how he controlled. When I pulled that Super out against lower narcs, they didn’t know what had hit them. I am taking my power, it is a good feeling. Thanks for sharing. 😃

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            AV, so sorry what happened to you. 😞 I think the Empathic Supernova can take many different forms. With Patri Narc it was a combination of fighting back verbally and passive aggressiveness (lying, tricking). With my ULA Somatic Ex it was a combination passive aggressiveness by retreating, Silent Treatments, sulking and some cynic comments, eventually a quick escape. With the MMRA Elite it was mainly open verbal aggression by totally lashing out verbally on him, followed by a quick escape. I escaped both times with the 100 % conviction that enough is enough. No more! Don´t need that shit anymore, that´s it!

          2. A Victor says:

            Aw, no need to feel sorry, it was long ago and I’m working through it, things are improving all the time now. Thank you just the same 🙃. You have told me but I always forget, you have no Geyser, correct? I always think that is why you get so outward, I tend to go inward I think. But the Super would dim the Geyser, from what BC30 said once recently. It struck me reading my own comment here back that I can see the Savior element coming into play in it. That does dim for sure once the Super takes over, thank goodness.

          3. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I´m a Super Carrier with significant Geyser minority traits and some Savior traits. 😊

          4. A Victor says:

            Oh yes, my Geyser is insignificant minority. It does pop up here and there, I think people think it pops up a lot if they only know me on blogs but, that’s only my fingers, haha! In real life, I am much more mellow.

          5. leelasfuelstinks says:

            And every time I went Supernova, PRIDE kicked in very strongly! Like “Fuck you! Enough is enough! Not gonna do this to myself any longer. I deserve better! Goodbye”

          6. Sweetest Perfection says:

            That I do have.

          7. leelasfuelstinks says:

            So you must have at least significant Super minority traits.

          8. Sweetest Perfection says:

            You know, I have been thinking of taking the ED again because back when I did I had to rush things because I was in a very uncomfortable environment, I wasn’t focused and I did it fast so that I wasn’t discovered by anyone around me. I sent it out quickly and didn’t even think much about it, so I am not confident my responses were accurate. But I’m also scared to do it again and to get a negative result from HG: you are NOT an Empath. The horror!! Imagine! I prefer to live in oblivion. Unless I were a narc, then I would like to be told but HG doesn’t tell you that anyway.

          9. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Haha! You know what? 😂 I was HOPING that I´m NOT an Empath 🤣 Couldn´t imagine me being an Empath 😂 I knew already that I have strong narcissistic traits, that´s why I was more scared that I´m a narc. And then NDC came, which confirmed that I indeed am an Empath and even Super! 😂🤣 I gasped for air and just thought WTF?! 😱 But H.G.´s analyses were very accurate.

          10. Sweetest Perfection says:

            If you are an Empath that cannot imagine being an Empath… does your mind automatically blows? Hahaha.

          11. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Sometimes yes 🤣🤣🤣🤣

          12. Sweetest Perfection says:

            *blow.

          13. Sweetest Perfection says:

            In reality I don’t want a different cadre either. I am content with the standard results. Your cadre doesn’t write your life narrative, your knowledge and the application of it do. Plus, if I’m a narc magnet, I prefer to attract only ULA clowns rather than greaters.

          14. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Standard, Co-Dependent, Super or Contagion is the school. The cadres are Carrier, Magnet, Savior, Martyr, Geyser.

          15. Sweetest Perfection says:

            AGH I always mess them up. I’m a Carrier!

          16. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Me too! 😎😁

          17. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Carriers of the world! Unite and take over… everybody else’s work load!!!

          18. leelasfuelstinks says:

            #CarrieresUnite, #WeCarryEverythig, #WeCanManage, #WeCarryYourShit 😉

          19. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Hahahaha!!!

          20. A Victor says:

            SP, I have come to love being standard! I have a very strong Super element, and I can see that it has come out many times in my life, but the standard is very much more my chosen comfortable place, if that makes sense. Unfortunately for me, the MMR’s seem more attracted to me, and they are so much harder to detect! The ULA clown I “met” was so easy, he was so obviously not right in the head! I wish I attracted them more, they’d be easier to spot and to reject, haha!

          21. A Victor says:

            Has HG said that Pride and Super will be together?

          22. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Don´t think so! Depends on your traits. Pride is just one of my most pronounced narcissistic traits. 😎

          23. A Victor says:

            Haha, mine also! It can really cause me problems!

          24. leelasfuelstinks says:

            But it protects us. Pride is what protected me from the narcs and their bullshit abuse.

          25. A Victor says:

            Ah, I see the correlation between pride and super, not that it will always be, but I can see how that works in me also. Thank you for that.

          26. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Okay, urm, you´re welcome, even though I have no clue 🤷‍♀️

          27. A Victor says:

            If my pride was injured, it triggered my super. And you are correct, a form of protection.

          28. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Yes! I get it know! Same here. Vanity and pride injured, narc tries to undermine your self-esteem and BEFORE that can happen, I get angry, I lash out! How dare he?! So, I only blame myself a little bit, but BEFORE my self-esteem gets totally eroded, anger and pride kick in, I lash out and suddenly I realize: This person is the sick, misogynistic idiot wanker! Boom! Lash out!

          29. A Victor says:

            Yes, my vanity is also a high trait. I believe these things were helpful in protecting me. I don’t lash out but there was separation. It was brought to escalation by my exes, now I realize that was their goal most likely. And when I walked away, or closed my heart off, that was it. I am now thankful for my N trait of pride. I’m not as sure yet on the vanity, you would think my ex would’ve used that to triangulate me, but maybe he realized I would’ve blown it off and I would be more hurt by the triangulation he did regarding my character. I don’t know, that is still in the thought process. And, another thing I think, his facade, he didn’t want me telling people he was negative about my appearance, like his sister told me about her then husband. My ex and I had lines that were not crossed, this was one of them. Though he once said something about my newly pregnant tummy. I knew I was painted black at that time, though I would not have known to call it that. It was a time period that I could feel his hate for me. But, when he said it, it made me angry, not so much hurt. They are all sick, misogynistic idiot wankers, I am beginning to believe.

          30. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Yes, they are all insane, misogynistic wankers, even though it´s not their fault. We should stay away from them.

          31. A Victor says:

            Same, now I need to learn to use it for my benefit!

          32. Sweetest Perfection says:

            AV how awful. You were very brave and I applaud your courage for not fighting. I wish my parents had decided that to protect us from the toxicity but we witnessed a lot of them even now. You took the higher path.

          33. A Victor says:

            SP, thanks, it wasn’t bravery, it was love for them, it was the only thing big enough to motivate that behavior. They still think we fought a lot, I did fight with him some early on and again at the end for a period. But there were years in between where it was extremely limited. I didn’t do it for kudos but I do appreciate your sentiment. I have great kids and I feel good about how I parented even with the handicap of a narc co-parent. And if I saved them some heartache, I was successful.

    2. Eternity says:

      Leela, you have never been IPPS, you hit the jackpot right there. I never ever want to be IPPS ever again.

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        I was once an IPPS of an ULA Somatic for about 1,5 years. It was not very pleasant 😉 Once, you enter the full sustained devaluation it´s a living nightmare! Pure horror! Escaped already after 1,5 years, even without knowing what I´m dealing with here. I just thought: We´re not a good match, this relationship has no future, doesn´t make sense to continue this. That´s what I told him back then.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Leela, I know the IPPS of my ULA somatic. They have been together for 15 years I believe. She has totally lost herself. She looks like him, trains like him, talks like him, looks to the side when he flirts openly with other people on social media… to the public eye, they are the perfect couple. I know she has been devalued and back to a respite period and then devalued and abused and cheated on and again and again many times. He actually gave me some hints, the way narcs warn you, by telling me they argued a lot, that she complained he withdrew affection, that she complained he agreed to do something and then stood her up because he decided to stay out with other friends, that they were going to couple’s counseling… I can’t imagine a year of that, I’m sorry. Then, imagine 15 years!

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Don´t have to imagine that: THESE ARE EXACTLY MY PARENTS! 😔 Patri Narc Upper Mid Range Somatic. 😔

  11. Asp Emp says:

    Woo Hoo! The Empathic Supanova! Yay! An excellent, slow burning, release of immeasurable rage…..ah, bless…..it was sublime.

    Laughing……”once the lights switch back on again”, yeah right, depends if the switch can be found again, if the empath hasn’t yanked it off the wall during their rage……laughing…….(I’d have the common sense to get the crow bar out but maybe by then I’d find another use for the crow bar instead…..laughing).

    RE: Lesser was hiding in a corner, in the dark. Laughing. Lesser did not attempt to ‘hoover’ directly until around 2.5 years later, he was ‘deflected’. I didn’t fkg care. ‘Hoovered’ directly again, around nearly 5 years (last November), ignored him. But I was mid-learning, so I was ‘freaked’ and angry. I did well, considering.

    MRN….”He will not comprehend truly what is happening”. Fkg right! Laughing. “He will roll out the pity plays and sympathy cards in order to try to achieve superiority again”. Didn’t fkg work! Hahahaha. Apparently, he was “in a confused and bewildered state”- took a few days off work….ah, dearie me….

    The little ‘explosions’ of my anger throughout the year prior to the long and massive explosion. Firing off the bullets of truth at MRN. It started with him, then them fker narcissists within the workplace and then ended with him – a full circle. Maybe nobody else has ever ‘mauled’ that MRN the way I did. It was deserved. Well served too. Laughing.

    No regrets. At all.

    Ah, thank you, HG, for re-posting this article. It was a pleasure to re-read.

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