Interview with HG Tudor

147 thoughts on “Interview with HG Tudor

  1. Ness36 says:

    I can’t help but hope that your current IPPS is different and you don’t ever have to devalue her.

    Very interesting interview, thank you.

  2. Truthseeker6157 says:

    Hey AV,

    The original Super Empath video on Knowing The Narcissist Channel. The SE and CoD are grouped together and HG then describes differences.


    1. A Victor says:


      Thank you, I will listen to that one again. I appreciate very much you taking the time to find it and tell me! 🙂

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:


        No problem. I really like that original video. I remember listening to it the first time on the hammock in the garden on a really warm day. It always takes me back to that day when I listen to it!


        1. A Victor says:

          If we get a warm day yet this fall I’ll hang my hammock chair from the tree and listen to it! What a sweet story, thanks for sharing that!

    2. Leigh says:

      Yes, thank you TS. I’ll be listening as well.

  3. emmyem3 says:

    I am unfamiliar with commenting on the blog therefore apologies if this is not in the correct place. I am so pleased people here enjoyed HG’s videos with Doug. I thought they were wonderful and the dynamic just gets better and better. I will definitely watch the January one. Doug is a lovely man.

    1. Ness36 says:

      I agree I enjoy HG’s interviews with Doug too.

    2. A Victor says:

      Absolutely the correct place Emmyem3! Welcome!

    3. Asp Emp says:

      emmyem3, I agree with you saying that the dynamic between HG and Doug comes across as two people who have genuine understanding about narcissism, hence the interviews being constructive, productive, professional and there appear to be a certain respect between the two of them.

  4. NarcAngel says:

    So many cakes here …….
    Angel cakes, Cheesecakes, Sponge cakes, Multi layer cakes…


    Varying ingredients and degrees of sweetness, differing bake times, and with no one flavour satisfying to everyone. Cupcakes are popular because they allow for satisfaction with smaller bites of each.

    Be happy to be cake – no matter the result.

    Muffins can only dream.

    Compliments to The Ultra for creating a recipe for success that includes all cakes.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you NA.

    2. Asp Emp says:

      Bravo, NA 🙂

    3. MB says:

      NA, “muffins can only dream” You have such a way with words! I hope you are well. Saw your comment and wanted to say hey!

  5. December Infinity says:

    I listened to this interview with HG as soon as it came out. I enjoyed every minute of it. I look forward to the next installment.

  6. CandaceMarie says:

    I was happy to hear that Shieldmaiden isn’t in devaluation. Great interview as always HG!

    1. Leigh says:

      CandaceMarie, I was happy about that too!

  7. Asp Emp says:

    Posting my comment here is no relation to HG’s interviews.

    However, I watched ‘Interview With The Vampire’ (1994) last night. Why comment about it here? ‘Interview’. Now that we know Tom Cruise is a narcissist. I was watching him and making some observations about his acting. The film was made when he was in his early 30s. It seemed to me that his acting was bordering on ‘robotic’ with a slight ‘stiffness’ to it. I wondered whether this would have been because he was not not necessarily ‘evolved’ as such by this age? I brought this up, partly because I understand the concept of the evolving of narcissism within a narcissist – I would suggest that it could be similar (in principle) to ‘delayed development’ likened to those with Aspergers. He does have dyslexia, maybe it is of no relevance to his narcissism? I was also looking out for the ‘plastic’ eyes but the fact he is wearing contact lenses, they were ‘plastic’ in any case!

    I do not usually buy ‘National Enquirer’ (18/10/2021) but I bought this because Tom Cruise is on the front page with the headline ‘Why Tom Can’t Find Love’. I was amused, I laughed out loud in the shop. Someone said to me ‘I do not like him’ and I asked why do they say that? Answer: he is ‘above himself, thinks he is better than everyone else, looks down on people’.

    I read the article and it ‘screams’ of his narcissism yet it is not mentioned. There may be some element of truth in the article, highlighting all the ‘red flags’ that those who know about narcissism would recognise.

    Just like with M Markle, people are not making the ‘connection’ to narcissism in relation to the behaviours of those with narcissism.

    It is as if people are wearing ‘blinkers’ and ‘driving’ through life without considering the ‘blind spots’.

    I am one of the lucky few to find my way to a ‘new’ and ‘undiscovered’ world of humanity (including myself as an individual). HG is currently an ‘undiscovered’ (to those who have not yet ‘found’ his work) pioneer of the human psyche. I have absolutely no doubt, he is an important part of future history and I believe he has already ‘re-written’ the DSM lists. Hence, HG Tudor’s Legacy will live on throughout time. Kudos to you, HG. (apologies for long comments, I know I write too much).

    1. lickemtomorrow says:

      I don’t know if HG has done “A Very … Narcissist” for Tom Cruise, but he would be an interesting candidate.

      Here’s a snippet from Wikipedia:

      “Cruise grew up in near poverty and had a Catholic upbringing. He later described his father as “a merchant of chaos”, a “bully”, and a “coward” who beat his children. He elaborated, “[My father] was the kind of person where, if something goes wrong, they kick you. It was a great lesson in my life—how he’d lull you in, make you feel safe and then, bang! For me, it was like, ‘There’s something wrong with this guy. Don’t trust him. Be careful around him.'”

      I’m not sure why he became so invested in Scientology, but I imagine it gives him the sense of control he was lacking as a child and also enables him to control others due to his high ranking. I’m thinking of Nicole Kidman and how their adopted children cut themselves off from her eventually, likely under their father’s and Scientologies influence, and also the fact he has not seen his daughter Suri in many years since his split from Katie Holmes. This smacks of the narcissist’s ability to compartmentalize, and also their lack of empathy.

      Anyway, it was interesting to read your thoughts here and the way people are not making the connection to narcissism, but I can honestly say many of these people flew under my radar in those terms as I just registered their behaviour as odd or obnoxious. If you put it in the context of us all having narcissistic traits, we can all be that way at times, I guess. It’s combining all the elements of their behaviour with the explanation of narcissism as a backdrop you really begin to see it for what it is. Some don’t even necessarily come across as narcissistic, their facades are so well managed, or they are of the Greater school and their charm seduces to the point of blindness. Can’t say either of those things for Harry’s wife.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        LET, I have seen Tom Cruise’s narcissism in ‘action’ on a guest show. It was really interesting. The assertion of control because of the threat / challenge ‘issued’ was interesting to observe and delightful for me to recognise. The plastic eyes were present. Blame-shifting and deflection. Also several times, bringing the attention back to him. There were other guests present (FFS).

        He is clearly an ACON yet a narcissist. Apparently he has rejected women because they were not suitable for the “church”, so he was controlling women in that respect. Apparently there is gaslighting ‘methods’ in the same “religion”.

        It still seems to me that narcissism is ‘taboo’ for the press to even ‘utter’ it. They may reflect certain behaviours ie obsession, anger ‘issues’ etc etc. Then again, it has to be ascertained whether it is narcissism or not. They should be reading HG’s work and finding out more about narcissism as a whole instead of wearing blinkers.

        Oh, her? I know it is narcissism. But I still cannot comprehend what she does and people say things about it. I really enjoy HG’s videos on her and Harry despite my life-long non-interest in the Royal Family. So it is a really excellent way to learn about narcissism. Ah bless, HG.

        Thank you too for your views 🙂

    2. Violetta says:

      The usual implied reason Tom “can’t find love” is he’s in the closet, which ignores the fact that:
      1) plenty of non-narcs are gay;
      2) plenty of non-gays are narcs.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        Violetta,….. laughing at your response……thank you for your (whispering…..secret information). Well, HG’s videos ‘Any Hole Will Do’ and ‘Is The Narcissist Secretly Gay?’ is probably applicable and I am sure there are plenty more to take into consideration. It was funny to read your comment though 🙂

  8. leelasfuelstinks says:

    Didn´t exactly get that one with the Empaths and the lack of control environment (excuse me, not native English speaker): Are the Co-D and the Super on the way to become a narcissist and then it stops? Is the Super also on the way to narcissist or are they on the way to Empath and then somehow narcissistic traits come in order to protect them?

    1. Asp Emp says:

      Leela, from 47:50 to 49:46, HG talks about the empaths and the schools in relation to GPD / LOCE.

      From what we know, a narcissist is formed with the LOCE and GPD (as HG explains in his article ‘To Control is to Cope’). An empath would be formed in the same way. This would be through 2 ‘pathways’ of DNA – depending which one ‘predominates’ via parents / usually the maternal grandmother. Either a narcissist. Or an empath.

      From what I understand HG to say in this video is that somebody with empath DNA would usually be Standard. Should they experience LOCE from childhood, they would become either Super or Co-Dependent.

      A Co-Dependent does not become a narcissist because they inherited empath DNA.

      I would say that the ‘formation’ of myself was via strong empath DNA (and my Deafness) from my maternal grandmother. My Aspergers and my lateral / analytical thinking via my father. My latent talent of art and accounts via muvver (but I am better than her at it). The ‘catalysts’ of my being more than just Standard empath is from the various ‘incidents’ in my childhood, ‘amplified’ by the DNA / GPD inherited. Granted, my ‘co-dependency’ originates from the fact I am Deaf and have Aspergers and in my view (from my understanding about ‘To Control is to Cope’ article), my Co-Dependent empath was probably ‘kicked-off’ by my father’s death when I was 9 (because of the ‘sudden loss’ of somebody I relied on). This is where I think HG’s ‘Don’t Fail Me’ article applies in my ‘case’.

      You can read the words if you click onto the 3 dots (next to Save) on YouTube (under the video)….click ‘Open Transcript’. If you want to be able to translate that into your preferred language, you can copy and paste the text from the transcript and use Google Translate? Hope that helps?

      Sorry for the long comment, HG. Thank you x.

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        But if the Co-D is on the way to become a narc, then there must be NPD-genes as well. H.G. talks about a “genetic switch”. So, the Co-D must have BOTH genes and on the way to becoming a narcissists the switch to Empath happens due to intervention/environment and all that´s left is The Creature.

        My difficult childhood (narcissistic abuse, being bullied at school) must have turned me into a Super Carrier. Baptized by fire, huh? 😥

        1. Asp Emp says:

          LFS, I recall K’s comment “Primary narcissism is the normal stage of narcissism that all children go through as they develop into healthy adults. Secondary narcissism is pathological (NPD) that develops due to LOCE and GPD”……

          Using the above words, I could suggest that all children are ‘co-dependent’ from birth and depending on GPD and LOCE, form into either narcissist, empath or a normal?

          1. A Victor says:

            Hi Asp Emp, we are all born narcissistic and codependent, so does this then mean that because the empath gene is there, in the event of an LOCE, that it goes to CoD. What makes it choose that over Super? In a supportive environment, would it go to narcissism? I don’t think so, unless they can have both genes, but, that is where HG said it is headed until some change happens. Or can one gene contain both possibilities? 🤔

          2. Asp Emp says:

            Hello AV, I would suggest that the empath genes need to be inherited. As you already know, some empaths can have a mixture of the empath schools, with the percentages of the strengths of which school as HG has in his EDC ‘system’. I would suggest that it depends on the genes inherited and the LOCEs experienced by the empath which leads to whatever school of empath they are.

            Yes, HG says in his interview (49:09) “then became arrested because of a genetic change” about the Co-D not developing into a narcissist. Simply put, from what I gather the word ‘arrest’ to mean is ‘stop in progress or process’ because of the genetic change – meaning that, from what I understand, genetics cannot change once a person has inherited the narcissism OR the empath genes (if found within parents, grandparents). The question is, how can there be LOCEs created without the ‘input’ of a narcissist parent?

            The genetic pattern can alter / or weaken between first and consequent siblings. My eldest aunt was empath, second aunt probably normal and mother, well…..

          3. A Victor says:

            Yes, I agree that the empath genes would need to be inherited, just as like other genes. Yes, your understanding of “arrest” and mine are the same, in this circumstance, so my confusion lies in HG saying that the empath won’t have the narcissist gene. Your question is a great one since we know that narcissists can form even in homes with empathic parents.

            Yes, TTU is third in her line of siblings, all narcissists I believe, then a sister who I believe was a CoD and another brorther who I believe is an empath also, not sure which type. Oddly, I don’t think either of her parents were narcissists but I think the farm hands around did a lot of damage to their family, maybe this is one way that non-narc parents could have a narc develop in a person with the gene, teachers possibly also?

          4. Asp Emp says:

            Good that you have looked at your family’s ‘environment’ and made considerations in relation to what were ‘trigger’ factors about TTU and narcissism at the farm. It does seem that the LOCE was quite dramatic and repetitive. It also shows how that the formation of narcissists can take place outside the immediate family.

            You mentioned teachers. Interesting point. I suppose that would be a contributing factor if children went to boarding school. And if there is also development delays within certain children, it could explain why some children can develop characteristic ‘changes’, especially if there was abuse at the school. Some teachers were ‘bullies’ (possibly abused themselves when young) and dished out severe punishment. The cane was still being used during the first few years I was a boarder. It was never used on me, nor was I punished severely (one matron did drag me by my hair – of which was raised / alerted to several parents by my friends) – I only got a bollocking.

          5. A Victor says:

            Asp Emp, thank you do much foryour thoughts here! You made me realize that TTU was sent away in 8th or 9th grade, to boarding school, she never really weren’t home again, except for short visits. They probably couldn’t stand having her around any more than I can. Kind of sad actually. And my dad didn’t love being around her either, why he worked round the clock, slept long hours to make up for it, traveled extensively early in their marriage, drank heavily and once sober, stayed in his bolt hole mostly when he was at home. She’s a beast.

          6. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Yes, primary narcissism is healthy and people with NPD get stuck there! They are still children in an adults body, their development arrested and they couldn´t become healthy adults. You know how often I saw an individual with NPD acting like a 2 year old? NPD is a development arrest, exactly in that very narcissistic stage. They get stuck there and that´s it.

          7. leelasfuelstinks says:

            “It´s all about ME”, if they don´t get what they want, FURY! HUGE TANTRUM! The big “Booo hooo”! Who acts like this? Right! 1-3 year old children! They see people as objects. Who sees people like this? INFANTS! Narcissists think in black or white, they project. And who does this? INFANTS! TODDLERS!

            There is the official hypothesis that NPD is actually developmental arrest. Narcissists get stuck in this narcissistic phase of early childhood. They have infantile (really, no insult) self-defense mechanisms as black and white thinking and projection.

          8. Asp Emp says:

            LFS, thank you for both your comments. There are several ‘conditions’ that are considered to be ‘developmental delay’. I have such ‘conditions’ too. Not narcissism. When there is a delay in development, it can also indicate less understanding about social communication, social interaction and so on. It is actually quite difficult for some people. Especially when someone with Aspergers who is Deaf has a narcissistic mother who is supposed to be the mentor / supporter at the same time she was “teaching” me how to speak. Punishing a child is not the answer. At the same time, children, whether narcissist, or not yet have other neurological differences will not recognise why they struggle to communicate their needs / feelings / thoughts to other people, even more damning when you are being abused by those who are supposed to be your peers.

            Some people have Learning Disabilities. It’s a difficult world we all have to live in…..

            Having said all of that, I can understand how a narcissist can increase annoyance. I’ve been there.

          9. leelasfuelstinks says:

            So sorry what happened to you, Asp! No, punishing a child is definitely not the answer! Delay in development is not the same as a development arrest! The development of the narcissists stops around age 2. Some parts of the brain just stop developing and remain in the state of a 1-2 year old child.

          10. Asp Emp says:

            LFS, thank you. Yes, a development delay is different from the arrest of genetic pathways. It could be suggested that some brain development can be ‘arrested’ at birth, ie if a baby is starved of oxygen during the process. There are lots of variations.

          11. A Victor says:

            Since the narcissism “takes over” between the ages of 0-9, your comment made me wonder if the older it happens perhaps correlates to the type of narcissist they become. My mother I believe was set at age 3, due to her behavior, she is a LMR.

          12. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I think it´s the environment which correlates with the type of narcissists: the upbringing. Doesn´t H.G. mention something like that? If a child with the NPD gene and LOCE is drilled to become a top athlete, to always look perfect, to have a successful career, it becomes a Somatic. I the child is pushed in the academic field, it becomes a Cerebral. If it´s a mish mash between both, the narc becomes an Elite.

            Patri Narc was pushed into sports and was in fact a top athlete in his youth. He became a Somatic. My narc #1 (was IPSS shelf variety) was just stupid as shit and there was no other way than being excellent in sports, looking good and sexual conquests. My ex (was IPPS) was pushed to be great at sports, another former top athlete, was a Somatic (R.I.P.). My MMRA (was NISS) was pushed by his parents to excel in academics as well as in sports. The focus lied mainly on school and academics, so, he turned into a heavily Cerebral-leaning Elite: main fuel comes from intellectual activities, but gathers also fuel from sports and athletic activities, dining at good restaurants, does not take great care of his appearance (personal hygiene, just the minimum, dresses terribly), asexual, virulent misogynist.

          13. A Victor says:

            Oh yes, that makes sense! I don’t remember it but now I have something to look around for, thank you!

            My ex, MMR Somatic, wasn’t pushed to do anything really, his parents didn’t invest much into raising him, but somewhere along the line he recognized that his charm was very successful at getting what he wanted, he used to talk to me about when he realized this, and his dad valued sports, though he never gave credit for accomplishments, only criticism for failure. Another, LMR Victim, pushed to work hard, very hard, very young. Another, UMR Elite, pushed in academics by others, physical accomplishment inside himself somehow. Yes, it seems to correlate. Thank you!

          14. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I was especially pushed to perfect, stunning and beautiful appearance and of course sports. As an act of defiance, I focused on school, academic stuff and sports 😂 Decided that all this appearance-shit was boring and needed a challenge. 😂 I started caring for my appearance in my late teens. Before, I was just a geek! A typical nerd, but sporty though! 🤣

          15. A Victor says:

            Interesting, I had not looked at it from the standpoint of how I was pushed, in this context. TTU did everything, I wasn’t allowed to help, except for those spastic crazy making moments when she would decide we had to do work, then our childish attempts were criticized and she would take it back over, always the Victim of course.

            My dad was mostly hands off, he made random comments about people’s weights or looks here and there, it was triangulation but generally in my favor? Even on his deathbed the last weekend, and in his Alzheimer’s afflicted mind, he told me I was beautiful. It surprised me. He had many people coming and going but I was the only one who heard that from him. It is a bittersweet memory, it was always the focus and there is so much more to me that he never knew. But, it’s done now. The other thing that he did was make available his extensive library and encourage us to use it. I read many things that were probably not considered good for children, at that time, but they helped form my thinking and showed me many things that I would not have known otherwise. I am very grateful to him for that. Also music exposure and other types of culture came through him, all of which was beneficial to me. He also encouraged us to try new things physically, teaching me about gymnastics, swimming, golf etc. He definitely came with a downside, the icy cold silent treatments that could go on for weeks. The critical view of my report card. Things like that, but overall he was not as bad as she was. He was always Elite. 🙂

          16. leelasfuelstinks says:

            But I think you told me he was also an asexual elite?

            When Patri Narc started with criticizing my looks all the time, I think that was the point when I drew the line in the sand. Why do my friends get accepted by their parents no matter how they look like and I only get put down because of tiny little flaws? Why do the parents of my friends have more freedom, are not dominated and controlled like me, but are treated as separate individuals and get respect and love for who they are? I hated my parents for not accepting me the way I am and realized that something is very wrong in my family, something is fishy. I think I was 8 or 9 when I drew the line in the sand and began to hate my parents for not accepting me the way I am. I preferred spending time with my friends rather than with family. I completely mentally detached from my parents and went my own separate way. At least psychologically.

          17. A Victor says:

            Hi Leela, no, he was not asexual, he just didn’t have sex with my mother for the majority of their marriage. Yes, I was even younger than that, very young, when I mentally detached, before I had anything to compare my treatment to. It was then that I realized I really only had myself to lean on and I did not doubt that I could handle whatever came. I just looked forward to getting out.

          18. leelasfuelstinks says:

            So, he was a serial cheater like my Patri Narc, I guess. Either they turn asexual or into serial cheaters.

          19. A Victor says:

            Probably. I only knew of one affair but nothing would surprise me at this point.

          20. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Who knows.. there are things you may better NEVER know. Elites can go this or that way. Their “sexuality” can be either cerebral or somatic.

        2. A Victor says:

          Hi Leela, After listening to it a few times and writing down what HG said, I think the empath has the empath gene only, he says they have no GPD toward narcissism. Along with that, many have the LOCE but not as sustained as one who develops into a narcissist. If a person with the GPD toward empathy has a supportive environment, they will invariably become a Standard. Supers and CoD’s have the GPD and also the LOCE, Supers will realize something isn’t right and draw a line in the sand. CoD’s though initially on the road toward narcissism, will have a generic change, I assume from the LOCE (?), and instead land on chaining themselves to the narcissist. This is the part I am unclear on, why are they headed toward becoming a narcissist if there is only the empath gene in them? Or is it possible for some to have both genes and the result is either depending on their environment, but this is not what HG said? Because the empath’s LOCE environment, if there is one, is not as sustained, does this cause the genetic change that takes it toward CoD instead of N? Or, is the CoD empath gene a little different from a regular empath gene to begin with? Does this then mean that ALL narcissists have a more LOCE environment and it is more sustained than ANY empath?

          Then, take me, a Standard/Super almost 50/50, a double ACON with only my Golden Child status as possibly giving me a less LOCE environment. How did I turn out a Standard? Or someone who is Super/CoD or vice versa? Or, a Super who comes from a supportive environment? I feel like the least likely would be a CoD from a supportive environment but it’s probably possible. Anyway, are these all outliers then?

          I am super excited for further information about all of this, it is so interesting!

          1. A Victor says:

            “…will have a genetic** change…” Sorry.

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            This is exactly what I don´t understand either. If the Co-D is on the way to narc, how can this happen without the narc-gene? And what is that “drawing a line in the sand”? What exactly does that mean for the Super? We draw a line in the sand (that´s indeed what I did) … and then? What happens to the Super?

          3. A Victor says:

            I believe the line in the sand means they have a point after which they will take no more, they will escape. Or they may go Supernova. But I think it means a point after which they will effect change in some way. I hope what happens is that the Super gets away and into a better place.

            I think we will have to wait until HG reveals the answer to our question about the CoD being on the way to a narcissist without the narc gene.

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Hey Leela,

      I’ve thought about this a lot and the closest I can get is as follows.

      Firstly genetic predisposition doesn’t have to be inherited directly from parents. It can be from parents, grandparents etc. We only need to look at physical attributes and family resemblance to know this is the case.

      Empath and Contagion empath. Genetic predisposition towards empath only. LOCE irrelevant. Either way the individual becomes an empath.

      CoDependent and Super. Genetic Predisposition towards BOTH empath and narcissist.
      LOCE relevant.

      LOCE coupled with partial predisposition to narcissist would likely form narcissist, UNLESS there is an intervener. Example, HG’s sister. HG is fairly certain that his sister became CoD due to the intervening empathic influence of their father. I would argue that HG himself acted inadvertently as intervener for his sister also, just in a different way. Their father did not intervene with HG. It appears to me Matrinarc claimed HG as hers. HG therefore becomes a narcissist (no intervener) his sister a CoD. (intervener present from birth)

      So the CoD / Super Empath starts on the road to becoming a narcissist, the partial predisposition towards narcissism is switched on. The intervener offers an empathic influence which the individual responds to, thus changing course and becoming an empath. The narcissistic predisposition is switched off, the empathic predisposition is now switched on and remains on.

      The Super having higher narcissistic traits would suggest a late arrival of the intervener. The CoD generally having weaker narcissistic traits suggests an early arrival of the intervener or continued presence from birth.

      So technically, you would expect the Super Empath to be an ACON with a narcissist parent representing LOCE.

      However, a narcissist parent isn’t the only way to achieve LOCE. What if the parents move location regularly and the LOCE is more environmentally than parentally based? What if the child is bullied throughout their childhood? What if the child is abused repeatedly by a non parent family member, or suffers a traumatic event in childhood? This and more besides is likely enough to cause LOCE for a period of time. The narcissist predisposition becomes activated due to LOCE but thanks to the stabilising presence and continued influence of two empathic parents for example, that narcissist predisposition later gets switched off and the empathic predisposition gets switched on in its place. The child ends up with higher narcissistic traits due to the period of LOCE but stronger empathic traits due to the continued stabilising influence of the empathic parents.

      That’s the best I can do I think.

      Assuming that hypothesis is correct, then it does suggest something else.
      Given HG’s sibling breakdown of both narcissists and empaths, it strongly suggests that HG’s genetic predisposition is comprised of BOTH empath and narcissist and not narcissist only.

      Heh heh heh, a sleeping empath gene! Bloody knew it.


      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        Great interview HG!

        I 100% support your view that MM is incredibly dull. But of course I still enjoy your analysis of her as it’s really helpful in understanding other people I know who share similar traits.

        I’m genuinely intrigued though, why is it that other people find her so fascinating? I hope no one takes this the wrong way. We all have different things/people which fascinate and intrigue us. MM is just not someone for me but I’d like to understand what it is I’m missing?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you AS2016

          1. Duchessbea says:

            I very much agree with your comment. I too find it interesting the amount of people who are so taken with her. My own thoughts on this would have to be, that they must be of similar personality or have similar characteristics as she has and they recognise those traits in her as being the same in themselves and that is perhaps one of the reasons they are somewhat drawn to her. Perhaps I am wrong. HG will let me know. Although I have to say her treatment of Kate was disgusting.
            Thought you might like to know, MM has done a reading on YT for children of her new book The Bench. The DM has said that the reading is done in the garden of her 14 million dollar mansion. If you want to be lulled into a deep sleep, may I suggest you read it on Halloween. Nothing more bewitching than MM’s melodic voice. Enjoy.

      2. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Thank you very much Truthseeker! That absolutely makes sense! I would have guessed too that maybe Co-D and Super could have BOTH genes and environment determines what they are going to become. As written in the book “Chained”, Co-Ds only have “The Creature”, they couldn´t develop the False Self.

        As H.G. says: “Same ingredients but some cakes were taken out of the oven before they could have been baked.”

        The Super, as H.G. said, realized early that something is very wrong here. That is exactly what happened to me. Maybe with the Co-D, early interventions prevents them to become a narc and only “The Creature” remains without the False Self, so, the cake is taken out of the oven, when it´s not even half-way baked and the Supers realize themselves that something is wrong and they “jump out of the oven” 😁 by themselves when the cake is about halfway baked. 😁

        1. WiserNow says:


          So many cakes, some half-baked, some jumping out of the oven by themselves – hahaha

          The personality of a parent (narcissist or empath) will affect the unique personality of a child in a unique way where the same parent will affect a sibling differently.

          The genetic predisposition seems to me to be the overriding factor. When a particular environment acts on a child’s genetic predisposition, it will be a unique combination. This will make a particular kind of ‘cake’. The genetic traits of the child will adapt or be developed in certain ways by the environment.

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Via epigenetics as well. Genes can be switched on and off, and that´s what seems to happen with the Co-D. The NPD-gene is switched off before they develop NPD and the Empath-gene is switched on.

          2. WiserNow says:

            Hi Leela,

            Yes, epigenetics is another aspect too. The study of how the brains of very young babies develop is related to this. There are studies that show physiological differences across babies regarding things such as: resting heart rates; differences in fear and distress responses; and reward motivation – to name a few.

            Even very small babies (0 – 6 months old) will tune into and ‘absorb’ the emotional state of their main caregivers. They pick up on a caregiver’s facial expressions, tone of voice, and emotional state or mood, etc, even at that very young age.

            With this in mind, if a primary caregiver has a particular personality, the baby will ‘tune in’ to it instinctively. As the baby’s cognitive brain is undeveloped at this stage, this ‘tuning in’ will be instinctive and unconscious.

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hey Leela,

          You’re welcome, though this is just a hypothesis. I have no idea if it is correct or not!
          I do know that people can have a genetic predisposition to more than one thing and that genes can be switched off an on. A study into ADHD was carried out, trying to establish why some people only have childhood ( intermittent) ADHD and others have (persistent) ADHD into adulthood. Essentially they proved the reason was DNA methylation, which relates to the switching on and off of genes in brain cells. It’s not beyond the realms of possibility that the same could happen in relation to the formation of an empath or a narcissist.


          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            That´s exactly what I thought, too. It was also my hypothesis, no kidding! Of course not only genes themselves determine us but also epigenetics. I was thinking about that too and guessed that maybe Super and Co-D could have both genes, while LOCE and epigenetics determine what you will become.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:


            It’ll be really interesting when HG does explain this. I think we’ll all crash Narcsite! I think we’re close on it with CoD but I’m less certain about SE. We have had less information about the SE in this context.

            If we were all just one school then I think it would be easier to see. It’s the fact that we are often a combination of schools that makes the formation question more difficult. That points more to behaviours and environment rather than genetics I think.

            Still interesting to discuss it though!


    3. Leigh says:

      Hi Leela,
      I understood Mr. Tudor to mean that the CoD was on its way to becoming a narcissist but halted and became CoD instead. I don’t think the Super was on its way to becoming a narcissist. They both had a Lack of Control Environment (LoCE) but the Super realized something was wrong and questioned it. He doesn’t say when and how the narcissistic traits come in to protect them. Hopefully Doug will ask that question during their next interview.

      Mr. Tudor,
      This was a very informative interview. I look forward to the next one. Thank you.

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Thank you, Leigh. I was not sure about what the Super was about to become but this is exactly what happened in my case! I was still a child when I realized that something is fishy here. Something is just fishy in my family. When I was invited to my friends houses, I noticed that their parents treat them completely differently than I was treated by my parents. I got criticized all the time, there was no love, no support, no encouragement, but constant criticism and belittling. My friends were respected as individuals, I was not. My friends were accepted the way they were, with all their strengths and flaws, while I was never good enough, a constant “B-grader”, who always could be better, prettier, who was not the way her parents wanted her to be and that´s why I was criticized, verbally abused and hurt all the time.

    4. BC30 says:

      No, I think they are mutually exclusive. You can be a narcissist or a normal or an empath or a normal because of the genetic component.

    5. lickemtomorrow says:

      I am reading the responses here with interest as I am a combination of CoD and Super empath. I don’t know if this is an unusual combination, but you don’t need to be necessarily all of one School or another. I think the lack of control environment (LOCE) is what bring these two School’s into being with the genetic component of empathy also needing to be present. As TS has mentioned, the LOCE could come down to a number of variables and not necessarily involve a parental narcissist, though that would likely be the most common scenario for a lot of people. I did not have an empathic parent, know my mother is a narcissist and most likely my father was a narcissist, too. This leaves me with the possibility of either the narc or empathy gene, and the need for an intervener who I can only imagine came in the form of my first grade teacher. There were no others. A year spent being built up by her, where she made me feel like I was worthwhile, likely helped to further switch on that empathy gene because I distinctly remember feeling the need for control as well. I believe I always had empathy, I can remember feeling things acutely as a child and not wanting anyone to suffer, even a doll who had a crooked eye which I bought because I thought no one else would want her and I didn’t want her to be alone. Perhaps in her brokenness I could see my own. I connected with the downtrodden, the underdogs, the unloved and the unlovable. I don’t ever remember a time when I didn’t feel that way, but the LOCE affected me deeply. Probably because I felt all these other things deeply, too. So I made attempts to imagine having control, through various means, but it was all in my mind, to help myself feel better. I think Co-Dependency became a mechanism for survival, and the only means of control, while the desire for control lent itself to the development of my Super. According to the EDC I am high on both empathic and narcissistic traits. That’s probably the only way I can understand the combination of my Schools and why I am the way I am.

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        INTERESTING! There are a couple of ACONs here with BOTH parents narcissists but being Empaths themselves. So, they must carry BOTH genes: empathy AND narc. The Co-D as well. They must have both, because they are on the way to become a narc and then due to intervention from the environment, the genetic switch occurs. The Creature remains but then, they develop into Empaths.

        Would be very interesting to know, how you, as Co-D AND Super developed.

        Interestingly, I did not feel my empathy for a long time. As a child, I was more on the way to ASPD, I guess. Crushed my dolls, threw my dolls at the wall, had terrible mood swings and tantrums, beat up children, didn´t care for animals, was a poor student, destroyed property, set fire, committed shoplifting and fraud at age 10.

        That changed at about age 15. Became a good student, began to care for the environment, for animals, for people, became a vegetarian (I am not anymore).

        Same today, but not vegetarian anymore (but only organic meat), caring, loving, compassionate, vain, defiant, proud, sometimes arrogant, …kind of a mish-mash.

        No idea what happened 🤪😁

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          Leela, to me what you describe sound more like ‘acting out’ behaviours and perhaps a dimming of your empathy due to the stress of your circumstances. At least that’s what I would conclude considering you are an empath. They may have been a cry for help and also for attention. Many children will act out when being treated badly. I remember after one very tense access visit my son had with his father he came home to me and literally began destroying an area in the house. He was out of control him and I called his father, knowing an incident had taken place the night before. He told me he was going out with his friends and wasn’t the least bit concerned with the pieces he’d left me to pick up. That was the turning point for me. I knew we had to leave or things were only going to get worse. I could see the impact it had on my son, and my middle daughter had been particularly anxious, also having suffered at her father’s hands in various ways. The eldest held the ‘enviable’ position of being the golden child. It wasn’t going to work out well for any of them. His influence had been curtailed due to our separation and divorce, but it still wasn’t enough. That’s the moment the Super took over and said “enough!” There was no doubt in my mind there was a direct cause and effect in terms of my ex-husband’s actions and my son’s behaviours, and his father couldn’t give a damn. As HG says, “we don’t provide support.”

          I do wonder what caused the change in you when you turned 15 since you had no escape. I’m glad you were able to turn the tables in the end to your benefit.

          I remember doing some things I wasn’t proud of as a child either, but an immediate sense of remorse would have accompanied those things. One was a bid for attention, I think, when I tried to impress the class by telling them during “show and tell” that my father had a counterfeit bank note! It had been in the news that these notes were circulating and so I made a bid to impress by ‘telling a tale. He had no such thing, and it caused a ruckus as the teacher then informed my parent’s of what had been said with a likely follow up by law enforcement 🙁 Another time I said a boy had done something when I knew he hadn’t done and he got into trouble on my say so. Both times I felt bad for lying and getting other people into trouble. That is, of course, one of the hallmarks of an empath. It’s not that we don’t do the wrong thing from time to time, but we won’t feel good about it when we do. Sometimes the regret comes later, when we realize the impact our actions have had. Our own narcissistic needs and traits sometimes override our empathy. That’s a given for adults and children alike.

          For the most part my empathy shone through. I never wanted to see anyone or anything suffer and moved to rescue them if at all possible. I would feel others pain and their distress, and tears would often accompany this. I’m still the same today, so it was always in me, but my first grade teacher helped me to feel good about what was in me, or about myself. She countered the negative experience of my home life, even for a short period of time, and confirmed my goodness. Maybe by giving me self belief it allowed those narcissistic traits to also find a greater place, which was only of benefit to me in the long run. She allowed me to see myself as separate. It was what I needed. I don’t think my mother liked her very much, or the ‘status’ she afforded me, which was that of no longer being the scapegoat.

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I have no idea what flipped the script. I think friends and religion! Had a very religious and “safe the world” phase back then, became a vegetarian, worried about environment and our planet (still do, still believe in God but I´m not that strict religious anymore).

            I think an important turning point in my life were FRIENDS!

        2. A Victor says:

          Hi Leela, your comment “Interestingly, I did not feel my empathy for a long time.” caught my attention. I did not either, I did not think I had any empathy actually, especially during my drinking years. I have learned here that I do have it and I have actually lived my entire life by it, I just didn’t know what it was! Now I recognize it in action but I still don’t “feel” it as an emotion.

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I feel it! Very strongly! And I´m aware of it. I became aware of my empathy when I was around 15. Late intervention by friends?

          2. A Victor says:

            I became aware of my empathy here! Haha, only in the last year! But, looking back I can clearly see how it has really been a driving force in my life, always. Late intervention by a narcissist, HG! Thankfully, and it was about time! 😂

          3. leelasfuelstinks says:

            I did know that I have emotional empathy, but did not know what is an “Empath” or a “Super Empath” is. I didn´t know what I am and I thought that I´m no Empath. EDC taught me a shocking lesson! 😂

          4. Joa says:

            AV, Leela, this surprised me a lot. How can you not know yourself???

            I don’t talk to anyone so often, even constantly, ha ha ha 🙂

            Once upon a time I didn’t know what empathy was. But from childhood, as soon as I began to have self-awareness of existence, I knew that I want to be and I am a good person. My sister too.

            Then we had a “break” during the teenage rebellion, when we were worse than many nraccissist. I was seized with aggression (people, rules, institutions, church). And my sister lost herself in stimulants and thoughtlessness.

            But we came back, each one to each other, and so we continue 🙂

          5. A Victor says:

            Joa, I stuffed my emotions at a very early age. It was a survival technique that I had to use at that time. I didn’t learn until decades later that I had done so or that I had even had them, so far removed and deeply pushed down they were. I had begun to recover them for about 20 years before I arrived here, very slowly, only a tiny bit. I was so terrified of feeling them. Once I arrived here, the pace picked up exponentially, many feelings began coming out, faster than I could handle sometimes. Many tears, many unexpected fits of giggles, more tears, it would’ve been quite stressful except that I was learning what had happened to me, which answered lifelong questions I had had, and also, I was bouyed up by the bloggers here and HG. Of course HG didn’t give emotional support, that came from the bloggers, but he did, and still does, offer encouragement regarding our learning, which is deeply meaningful to me. This is how. I cannot express to you the relief I felt at finding out I was an empath, it answered so many questions, filled in so many blanks, and even more as I have learned more. I will never be able to repay HG for what he has done for me.

            I am happy that you always knew yourself, that is how it should be.

          6. Joa says:

            AV, thank you for the clarification. This blockade lasted for a very long time with you.

          7. A Victor says:

            Yes, sadly it has. I think the times I might have tried allowing myself to feel were shut down yet again by my ex, also a narcissist. It didn’t take many times until I stopped trying. There were 2 counselors who were able to help me a bit, to realize I had feelings but they were stuffed. But I was in a risky spot then, unwilling to allow them out except very slowly. It has helped a lot being here, I am starting to get in touch with them better, and know when they happen.

        3. A Victor says:

          Hi Leela, I’m thinking there must be dominant and recessive at play here.

          1. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Indeed, I read that the genetic predisposition towards NPD is a recessive gene/recessive gene combination. If this is the case, some Empaths can only be carriers without manifestation.

          2. A Victor says:

            I think a recessive/dominant combo or a dominant/dominant combo would be more likely to result in NPD, though two recessives could still of course. But, then, with the empath gene also (?), it would depend on the recessive/dominant combo of both I think to see which would be more likely to develop. HG did say that empaths don’t have the N gene though, so I think his explanation will be very enlightening.

          3. leelasfuelstinks says:

            If NPD was dominant, then how can we explain that ACONs of TWO narc-parents still can become Empaths? Interventions? Environment? An Empath with TWO narcissist-parents MUST carry the NPD-gene, don´t they?

          4. Asp Emp says:

            LFS, RE: your question, I understand that in relation to genetics, it can ‘skip’ a generation. Just because both your parents are narcissists, it does not mean that they would necessarily carry a strong NPD gene to pass onto you.

            My great uncle was deaf. Muvver and her siblings did not become deaf. Me and one cousin became deaf. My nephews and my cousin’s children did not become deaf at all – skipped that generation altogether. A classic example of skipping in genetics.

            It can happen. It’s all within the chromosomes. From what I understand, 50% of genes from each of your parents, 25% from each of your grandparents gets passed onto you.

          5. A Victor says:

            Yes, that’s what I’m thinking, except that HG said there is no narc gene in empaths, in the interview. He will explain it someday.

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hey LET,

        Firstly, I just want to cuddle you for your story about the doll. If that isn’t an empath I don’t know what is xx.

        Formation is such an interesting question and the more I think about it, the more variables I find. LOCE is a huge variable in itself. Relationship to child, duration, age of child when the intervener arrives etc etc.

        Your comment also made me consider something else. If there are two genes, one for narcissist, one for empath similar to two parents, one with brown eyes and one with blue, then which gene is dominant? Instinctively I would have said narcissism is dominant. Actually though that doesn’t make sense. There are more empaths than narcissists. If you follow that through, as CoD, your Empath gene is switched on from birth, switches off during LOCE, switches back on with the influence of an intervener, resulting in a mix of both narcissistic and empathic behaviours. HG vaguely vaguely remembers experiencing some empathic emotions as a child. So is it possible that for him the empathy gene was switched on from birth, switched off during LOCE and remained off due to the absence of an intervener, therefore allowing the narcissist gene to switch on?

        You also made me think when you mentioned your empathic and narcissistic trait levels. Traits feed in to the formation of different empathic schools but they aren’t everything. There are a huge number of variables as we are usually more than one school. Again I’m basing this on HG’s work and an email consultation where I asked about the link between the EDC and TDC. * Credit to HG.* ( I won’t breach confidentiality as to questions posed.)

        Me hypothesising now. Let’s say for argument’s sake you have a Codependent and a Super Empath. Both have high empathic and high narcissistic traits with almost identical percentages. Why is one Super and one CoD? It would have to be behaviour preference. We don’t have to take the TDC to establish our school.

        I read somewhere in HG’s work, that a CoD can hang in there in a conflict situation. It can be a full on blazing argument and the CoD still hangs in there. She does it to find a resolution (I think I remember that correctly). The stress and discomfort is not as bad for her as the argument not being resolved. It might well be that the SE will stick around in the conflict situation too. After a time though the SE thinks, “Bollocks to this, this is going round in circles. I’m done.” She withdraws. The CoD outlasts her. Same traits, different behaviour preference.

        The CoD and SE have to be close cousins. They sit next to each other on the empathy scale. Similar to a UMR and LMR where they are close, but there are very real differences in behaviour preference.

        If we look at it in terms of behaviour preference rather than traits in this instance, then having both CoD and SE as your schools makes more sense. You prefer to behave the SE way in situation category A, but you prefer to behave the CoD way in situation category B with an overall majority leaning to CoD.

        Again, just a hypothesis and the way that I try to make sense of it!


        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          TS, thank you for your kind words <3 I really appreciate them. I felt for that doll as though she was a real person who just needed some love, and I didn't want her to be rejected. I know now I felt very rejected as a child, so perhaps I was soothing my inner child by doing what I did. I wanted to know I was loved, so I likely projected that need and the subsequent soothing I required onto the doll. How did little me know these things? It's amazing what's inherent in us at times that we can only understand much later as adults. Little LET would have greatly appreciated that hug xox

          There are so many variables, as you say, and apart from the variations in the LOCE, there also the variations in our different personalities, in terms of how we respond to that. We will all have inherent personality characteristics which also probably determine the empathic Schools and Cadres to which we belong. You and I are both INFJs, so that being a personality type may have also influenced our empath type. I only thought about that today, our inherent qualities as well as the environmental factors which influence those.

          Interesting to consider the possibility of both genes existing and the influences which cause them to be turned on or off, which we know is the LOCE. I don't know if we could divide them into dominant and recessive, like you can when it comes to some other genetic traits like eye colour. HGs work leads me to think you have a predisposition to one or the other, but then again he also says a CoD is someone on the path of becoming a narcissist who diverges from that with some level of empathic intervention. It certainly seems I may have been on that path in some respects and perhaps the Super is a remnant of a developing narcissist … wow, there's some food for thought, but none of this will be properly explained until HG provides the explanation for us.

          As to the question of being high on both empathic and narcissistic traits, I think the LOCE may have something to do with the outcome leading to a higher percentage of one (CoD) over the other (Super), plus I imagine it would also be down to our inherent nature or personality types. We become one or the other to survive, or cope, as HG would say.

          I think I've described the combination CoD/Super before in my case as 'going in easy' or being seduced more easily, but 'coming out hard' as in being more willing to draw a line in the sand rather than persevering to the point of collapse. Maybe that's my understanding of what you've explained from your perspective to do with behaving one way in one situation and another in a different situation. I think I am the same regardless of the situation – my CoD leads me to be more dependent or easily ensnared, but my Super calls it when there is a need to say ENOUGH. Probably like the situation I described to Leela with my ex-husband and my son. The other possibility is that as a CoD, I'm more likely to respond to hoovers, and repeat the cycle, which I also did when my ex-husband promised change and called me back from my 'sabbatical' during our initial separation.

          Needless to say, we're both hypothesizing here and only HG knows the answer xox

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:


            My heart is going out to little LET. I’m visualising her and reacting the way we all react inwardly when we hear of others’ childhoods on here. I feel like I want to kick the door down, run in, scoop her up and get her out of there. Obviously I’d need to give a swift kick to the Matrinarc and patriarch on the way out. I wouldn’t be me if I didn’t do that would I? Xx

            You’re right, we are more than traits and emotions, we have to add in life experiences and our wider personalities too. I forgot you were INFJ too! On paper we are ridiculously close you know haha! You could almost mix us up I think.

            It’s crazy the more that is being discovered about DNA. I’ve been reading about the warrior gene recently. That’s an interesting one too. Today though, I made an accidental discovery. You’ll smile because the Truthseeker trait was in full flow but it’s kind of funny how it came about.

            I was actually on TikTok. I’ve started using it for specific workout routines, so my feed has a lot of workout challenges, dance stuff etc. A short dance clip came on called Tango of the Dead. I liked the remix of the song so Shazammed and added to my playlist. I listened to it on the mat stretching out in the gym. As I listened, my jaw started to tingle. It tingled deeper until it almost felt like cramp. Then as the song played, my outer thigh started tingling, then my right forearm. I thought it strange but that was that.

            I later had my daughter in the car, playlist on shuffle and it came on. So I asked her to listen and tell me what she thought at the end. Same thing, jaw, thigh, forearm for me. She said, “ It’s not my thing, but I like it. It made me feel weird, my jaw was itching.” I googled when I got home. The tingling reaction to music is called frisson. Apparently it relates to an individual not simply listening to music, but rather they go in to the music. So, I asked my son to listen through headphones. No reaction. Just myself and my daughter.

            It made me think. When I say I use my playlist to change and dip my mood, it really does make sense in this context. HG’s new YouTube channel caters to this element of our make up. I would hazard a guess many of us are very receptive to music and tone of voice. Some more susceptible than others but it’s likely ‘an empath thing.’ It highlights HG is incredibly switched on when it comes to the subtleties.

            It also made me think about memories. The way that I remember. I don’t remember at all. I relive. I think this is similar to the music idea. I go in to the memory, I don’t just look at it like a photo. It’s no wonder I was in such pain post narc. Pain is exactly what it was.

            I’m pretty sure there are others here that will be similar to me. I’m pretty sure my daughter has Contagion as part of her school, though not her lead school.

            Sorry to wander off topic. I think it’s interesting though, particularly given the launch of the Treasure Trove. Empaths really need to use it. I really think it can help in a variety of ways, distraction, relaxation, mood stabilising, sleep, a variety of things, all positive.

            (Apologies for the comment length again. I’ll reign in.)

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Ah, TS, thank you for the thoughts of rescue and no, you wouldn’t be you if you didn’t think of dealing out a swift moment of justice to both my parents in the process <3 I think many of us would want a moment of justice for little HG as well, and wish for a rescuer, also. Some have shared their thoughts about what they would like to do to Matrinarc and it would not be nice!

            I'm sure HG has something much jucier lined up for her demise.

            I love the fact we have so much in common, which is one of the unexpected bonuses of finding ourselves here at a similar time. I will admit one moment in particular freaked me out, when we both mentioned having a % of Martyr in our makeup on the same day in two completely different threads, talking to two completely different people. It came up in my notifications, and I don't know if you noticed it, but discussion around the Martyr category is so rare here it really stood out to me. I think I also saw you mention an element of CoD in your makeup which I didn't realize you had, or maybe I just missed it if you'd mentioned it previously. Anyway, that's just to concur with your thoughts on our similarities 🙂 We also seem to like to mull over things as we try to decipher various aspects of narcissism which I find a real treat!

            I've never heard of the "warrior" gene. I'm going to look it up when I'm all done replying here.

            That's so interesting about your experience with that particular piece of music. You just know I'm going to look it up now, too 😉 What's amazing is both that it has a name (frisson) and your daughter also experienced the same thing. You've conducted your own experiment by having your son listen to it as well. Awesome! I'll let you know what affect it has on me.

            I can relate to the idea of being receptive to music in the same way and sinking into the experience. I use it often to cater to my moods and as a means of catharsis. It connects to my emotions and enhances them so that I experience them more fully. What I find is when I dip down into them, as you describe, it also enables an element of release, which in and of itself keeps me from somehow being consumed by them. If I acknowledge them I can let go of them, if that makes sense.

            I also relive memories as you describe. They come with the six senses and bring me back to the moment as I experienced it. Probably one of the reasons HG recommends empaths get rid of everything connected to the narcissist … holding onto those things causes us to sink into our ensnarement again, and I know for me that is where a sense of longing kicks in. Whether it's good or bad memories, the items connect me to him, the orchestra strikes up and the dance begins again. The pain comes from knowing the dance now has ended and the music has stopped playing for 'us'. It plays for somebody else now. Someone who doesn't know they are locked in a deadly dance with a narcissist. The pain is real. They will soon find out.

            I trust your understanding gained here will benefit your daughter, too, and you might be happy to know she possibly shares an element of your Contagion, while also being concerned for her if that is the case. At least that's how I feel about my more empathic daughter sharing some of my empathic traits. She has such a big heart, but as we all know the bigger the heart, the more broken it can become.

            I do have to dip into HGs Treasure Trove 🙂 I'm looking forward to it and he's already getting a few suggestions for what people would like him to add to it as well.
            He really does treat us to the best of the best, and those little surprises he offers make me feel like a child all over again at times. In some ways, he really speaks to my inner child who was so wounded, and I really appreciate again your kind and generous thoughts on rescue xox

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Strangely I got a tingling and numbing in my left hand! Not quite the same response, but my hand is still tingling now as I type this, and as you probably know my left hand is my favoured hand. I don’t like anyone, even a song, messing with that! xo

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:


            You really make me smile. I knew you’d climb aboard my crazy train, haha! You always do! “There she goes again, let’s have a go.” haha! Thank you for lending an ear, it’s always so much appreciated. Xx

            Is this the version you listened to?


            I recognise the piece of music, I have heard it in parts lots of times before, but this version really had an impact. It doesn’t matter how many times I listen I tingle each time. So it doesn’t appear to be expectation related as such.

            You describe your linking music to emotions perfectly. That’s exactly it. I agree, sinking can help, as long as we don’t sink too far for too long. It can help to work through emotions I agree. The way you remember also is achingly similar. My heart goes out to you there from one who knows. Xx

            You could argue that this discussion has little relevance to this site, however I think it does. Me being me I had a really good look at information out there about frisson. There was an experiment conducted. 10 candidates who reported never experiencing frisson, 10 who did. The listeners were asked to push the space bar on the keyboard when they experienced frisson and to hold the key down for the duration of that experience. 5 tracks were played, music frequencies were calculated and moderated. Diffusion tensor imaging was used to view brain activity of each listener,

            Various parts of the brain lit up in the frisson group. Activity centred around the insula. These were some of the findings.

            “Results from diffusion tensor imaging show that white matter connectivity between auditory perceptual regions (pSTG) and regions of the brain important for emotional and social processing (aIns, mPFC) reflect individual differences in the tendency to experience chills from music. The chills group showed higher volume in tracts between seed regions in the pSTG and target regions in the aIns and mPFC, especially on the right side, which survived correction for the multiple comparisons of three different tracts tested on both hemispheres. Effects are not attributable to gender, ethnicity, IQ and language differences, years of musical training or personality, as the two groups are matched for these variables (Table 1).

            Furthermore the volume of white matter connectivity was significantly correlated with a participant’s tendency to experience chills: the more frequently a person reports experiencing chills, the larger the volume of white matter connectivity among these three regions of the brain.”


            “These white matter bundles have implications for individual differences in behavior (Johansen-Berg, 2010); for instance, higher white matter connectivity was observed in people with high emotional empathy (Parkinson and Wheatley, 2014), whereas lower white matter connectivity was observed in people with social-emotional impairments.”


            “The current findings also converge with prior reports that people who are emotionally empathic have higher white matter integrity in the temporal and frontal lobe regions also traversed by the arcuate and uncinate fasciculi (Parkinson and Wheatley, 2014).”

            I went to the evidence. Various articles reported similar theories but I liked this one because it was based on a scientific experiment. Plus, it had pictures and I like pictures haha!

            Empaths are wired differently. I think going forward, we will learn far more and be given scientific explanations as to the reasons we are the way we are.

            Now for the concerning part. For my own experiment, I asked a fourth person to listen. Once the person had done so, I asked only ‘What did you think?’ The individual listed the instruments involved, the timing of the music, how many times certain parts were repeated etc. Basically a detailed account of the technicalities of the piece. The individual answered precisely as I expected. Zero emotional response, zero consideration of an emotional response, simply a very logical analysis of the piece of music itself.

            Makes you think doesn’t it?


          5. lickemtomorrow says:

            🙂 Smiling right back atchya, TS. LOL to climbing aboard your ‘crazy train’ 😛

            It’s what I do. And I find our conversations so stimulating, too.

            OMG, when I clicked on that link and listened to the version you shared, my left hand started to tingle again and then my lower left leg and foot! How strange. I was even more impacted the second time round. I’d listened to a different version originally, but I particularly love this one with the image of the ships at war. So glad you introduced me to this piece. Very inspirational, and I can see how it would accompany your workout, too. I do find music is one of the best backdrops for inspiration of any kind. I like to listen when I write. I also find I experience this element of ‘frisson’ to a lot of different pieces of music, not just orhecstral.

            Shivers all over with this one:


            Wow, that is some level of research on the phenomenon and I appreciate you sharing it. Very science based, where all I experience is the emotion surrounding it. It’s fascinating to be able to tie a scientific explanation to what we are experiencing emotionally at times, though in a sense that means the moment can also lose some its magic. Although, tbh, I don’t think I’d stop experiencing it just because it has a scientific explanation! But, very thorough, and I’d say there are many more scientific breakthroughs to come when we consider what a complex organ the brain actually is, and how much it is affected by our circumstances, too. The connectivity very much relates to brain development which relates to a whole lot of other things, as we know. We also know how the odds are stacked against some people when it comes to their environment and genetics, too. Such an important area of study.

            Haha to you liking pictures, TS 😉 Sometimes you need a visual to grasp the concept.

            I see you like experimenting on people 😛 The Truthseeker trait definitely on display xox I just know I wouldn’t want to be the ‘logical’ person who can be so exacting about what it takes to make up the moment without actually experiencing the sensation that goes with it. I literally can’t hear something like that and not respond in some ’emotional’ fashion. In this case, it is a whole body reaction, so not just an emotional, but also a physical response. The mind is also engaged, but obviously in a more integrated way. Or, at least that’s the way I would see it. Definitely all our senses are activated.

            It definitely does make you think, and you never fail to make me think 🙂 Which is probably why I enjoy our conversations so much xox

          6. A Victor says:

            Hi LET, I think for me I live as a Standard most of the time, just going about my business, trying to do my thing, not stand out. But there are times when my Super comes out, if I see a dog in a car on a hot day for example. I have called the police on such situations and waited until they arrived, to show them where the car was. As a Standard I don’t think I would do this, but the Super does. Move it into a relationship with a narcissist, I think I behave in that relationship as a Standard most of the time, again, keeping my head down, doing my thing, trying not to cause ripples, a CoD might fret when the narc is leaves, a Super decide to deal with it in some way etc. But for me, given certain behaviors by the narc and boom, there is my Super. It happened more frequently than a person with a lower percentage of Super, I think. Looking back I think I had a lot of Supernovas. And I did leave my first ex when I had had enough, after one year of marriage, it was over for me. Anyway, I think it relates to how we routinely behave as much as going from one to the other. I am not sure I described that well.

          7. lickemtomorrow says:

            Hi AV,

            That’s such an interesting explanation of your Standard and how it impacts on you.

            I think you described it really well 🙂 We probably move through life based on our majority School, but the others also have a place given certain circumstances. I can imagine reacting the same way to the situation you described with the dog. Couldn’t let that one get by me either, and I’m hugely protective when it comes to children. I think that’s the Saviour element, or Cadre, appearing which I think we also share.

            As a CoD, I can say that I will try to please, so I can relate that to the fretting when the narcissist threatens as a form of manipulation, or gives the silent treatement, etc. CoD’s would be very finely attuned to the narcissist’s manipulations. I also am 10% Standard, so probably have my moments where I just get on with things, too. That would likely depend on the circumstances, and where the narcissist is concerned I’m likely to react more from either my CoD or Super.

            The Supernova in my experience is a very ‘one off’ event. It’s very definitive in terms of the circumstances, and much like you describe how you left your first ex. It’s an ending, and often a spectacular one, the finality of it being the hallmark, I think. It’s really taking it back to the narcissist, but in a way where you keep your dignity and sense of self respect. At least that would be my take on it.

            I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this as it helps me also understand more about my majority and minority schools 🙂

          8. A Victor says:

            LET, you’re welcome. One more thing, the lower the percent, the lower possibility that it will ever come into play. I only have the two schools but 3 cadres, I do live mostly in the Savior but, only 16% Geyser means it may never show up, unless circumstances are just right, which might never happen, if I’m understanding correctly.

            And thank you for sharing about the supernova. I will have to learn more about that.

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:


            You know, the more I think about this the more it gives rise to other questions and thoughts. (my half ones again haha! ) We have the empath group, sitting right at the top of the empathy scale. You and I can listen to the same piece of music and experience a very similar physical sensation. We can describe it. Similarly we can listen to other pieces of music and feel our emotions align with that music as we listen. Almost as if the empathy we have, feels the emotion as it would with a person and replicates it, or interprets it. We place it in context of all of the feelings we experience and can state “this song is uplifting” or “this song makes me feel sad.”

            The narcissist has no emotional reference point to draw on. So I would assume when the narcissist hears music he can’t ‘place’ the emotion. He can listen and think “It’s slow, lots of strings, this or that pitch or timbre or whatever else, this means I’m supposed to say “I find it sad”. So it’s cognitive. Similar with a scene, a photograph or a painting. Nothing.

            If we look at tone of voice in a similar way. Things like speed of talking, pauses, word repetition, inflection, language dysfluencies volume etc. The speaking is similar to music. As empaths we can interpret the emotion behind the words spoken. The emphasis on certain words, raise or drop of tone, tiny bits and pieces that we take in, contextualise, and recognise.

            The narcissist, like with the music, can’t feel the emotion behind the words. Again, he analyses, looks for patterns, tries to recognise what he is hearing by comparing it to what he has heard before. Both groups are making rapid calculations but the empath has the advantage. She knows how someone is feeling because she feels the emotion within the words. Some narcissists must really fly blind.

            Then the narcissist’s own speaking voice. If I think about them finding the correct facial expression to fit the situation. They also have to find the correct tone and inflection, pauses etc when they speak to match the mood. If I think about famous narcissists, Barack Obama is a good one. He smiles a lot, laughs a fair bit, is good at injecting force behind his words, in a speech for example to convince or sell through, but actually, when you think about it, the tone is flat and the words are empty in almost every clip I’ve seen of him, he just isn’t likeable, something feels off and he’s a high echelon narc too.

            Vaknin, flat, almost machine like, highly intelligent but can’t inject any semblance of emotion, covers a little by laughing, but very clunky, another aware narcissist. You’d expect better, that might also be a cultural thing too though. Then we have HG. Night and day. Also uses humour to cloak, but his inflection, pace, tone etc is verrrry polished. This is convincing, sounds genuine. I wonder if that is linked to his musical training? He has an ear for accents, tone, inflection etc because he has an ear for music / musical training. There must be a huge number of calculations to be made at a very quick rate.

            Here’s the thing though. If we went to the other thread where we are both talking about our experiences of giving birth, and I read your comment about your experience and recorded it. You read and recorded. I think they would sound almost identical because I can feel the emotion of the experience you describe. I know why the emotion is there and how it sounds. If HG read it, I think you could tell, even with HG. That particular comment contains emotion that isn’t straightforward to classify at all. He would sound different to us.

            It’s a bit like this.

            1. I’m sorry you had that experience.
            2. Ohhh LET, I’m so sorry you had that experience.

            You can feel emotion in version 2 and that’s written not spoken. Even typing the example, I can feel the emotion.

            When you listen to ‘Burn burn just for me’ you can hear emotion in there. Pride, vanity, anger, disdain etc. You can feel it behind the words because it’s genuine emotion that is being felt. It must be incredibly difficult for the narcissist to ever come close with something like compassion for death of a loved one, another reason to hate having to be supportive. It’s a threat to control because it’s too difficult to put everything together and actually portray certain types of compassion. Compassion is felt, it comes from within the eyes, very difficult to mimic that I think.

            I listened to your piece of music 😁. I didn’t tingle, but felt uplifted, determined, optimistic, like I was starting a new chapter. It’s very you too I think x. I think I get distracted by lyrics, so it’s either or for me. I either get an automatic feeling of emotion from a song, or, I get more of a shiver response. Shiver seems to be more orchestral based for me. Likely why I found that response so noticeable. I rarely listen to that type of music. I’m playing around with it now though haha!

            I love our conversations too. I enjoy the connection. It’s nice to be able to bounce my thoughts off someone and know they won’t be dismissive. I have a busy head sometimes, it really helps to drain down my thoughts. Xx

          10. HG Tudor says:


          11. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, catching the overflow and always enjoy pondering your thoughts x

            Empaths definitely have an ability to connect which can engage all our senses, and “frisson” is something I didn’t have a name for but have experienced ever since I can remember. Music and songs that make the hairs stand up, and tingling all over with the one I shared. I’m very connected to music and also very eclectic in terms of what I enjoy, so I’m so glad I’ve now got some insight into what this experience is 🙂

            Our connection is natural and automatic, not requiring any thought or effort. That’s where we differ from the narcissists. It sometimes amazes me how well they are able to display cognitive empathy, to the point of crying what seem like real tears, or appearing to offer genuine sorrow. The two sentences you wrote, the first definitely sounds more mechanical, the second more sincere. As you say, inflection, tone, etc. will also have an impact, and it’s in an empath’s gift to be able often to sort the sincere from the insincere and the authentic from the inauthentic or fake. As we well know now from HG’s series on Harry’s wife, she is obvious to the point of not being hidden at all as regards her lack of empathy. She says (supposedly) all the right things, but they’re only words. They feel empty and meaningless when she says them, even though some of them should carry a great deal of weight or meaning. She literally takes away from causes by applying her fake empathy, rather than contribute to them. My body instantly reacts to hearing her or reading what she writes. It’s an automatic shutdown for me. There’s an element of fine tuning I experience which helps to sort the wheat from the chaff.

            When it comes to Barrack Obama, I find him an eloquent speaker, very charismatic, and also influential. I can see how he won two terms in the White House, but whether it was Hillary or some failure on Obama’s part to deliver, Trump won the next round. Trump also has a gift of saying what people want to hear, although he can be bombastic and not nearly as eloquent. People seem to be forgiving of that because he is relating to them on their level. That’s my impression anyway. Sam Vaknin is ‘clunky’ as you say, so the disconnect is more obvious, though as you also say part of the problem could be in translation.

            I find HG has a marvellous ability to make a connection without the benefit some of these other have, which is a visual to also connect them to their words. I wonder if that would benefit HG and his work? I often think it is one of the barriers, but can understand that level of exposure for him would be risking too much. HG is an enigma where his narcissism can be utlilized for a variety of purpose, including to create his legacy, but I think he may be too high profile in other areas of his life to risk the two things coming together.

            I’m off track again, but HG has an ability to connect without all the other benefits, and much of that is down to his ability to cognitively empathize with others. His latest article, “A Peculiar Placement” indicates the level of work or effort he had to apply in order to develop his cognitive empathic skills. He had to risk ridicule to ask the questions he needed to ask – “what does this mean”, “how does that feel”, why do you do that?” For me it’s a little like being blind or deaf, not to be able to connect to your emotions. Something vital is missing and cannot be replaced. On that basis, a way must be found around it, in order to fit in, to find a way to connect, convince people you belong. We can all be or become outcasts for many different reasons, but some people are disadvantaged from the beginning. HG has found a way to compensate. I think we will always feels it’s a shame he can’t feel in the same way we can, but he is focused on efficiency and feelings tend to get in the way. What is that article about attachment – “Attachment is the Seat of Misery” – get attached, get bogged down, can’t be as effective, need to get fuel, fill her up!

            You give a good example with the piece HG can emotionally relate to – “Burn” – because it is his experience, and those are the emotions he feels. He doesn’t have to concoct anything around those. But he has studied enough to concoct what he needs to, when he needs to, if other emotions or expressions are required. Probably where the use of charm reigns head and shoulders above some of the other manipulations that could be put to use – “you get more bees with honey” 🙂

            I better post this before HG’s patience becomes too sorely tested <3 xox

          12. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Thank you HG, I thought so.

          13. Joa says:

            TS, just like we go into music, image, text, we also go into sex and feeling.

            I am always looking for people and their emotions. Once someone asked me why I always read the biographies of the author of a song, painting or book. What do I need this for? One song and so much time to trace life history, compare dates – life events, and write a song.

            That’s what it is for. To “enter this man” even deeper. To harmonize with it, to understand it. Feel what he felt even when he lived 500 years ago.

            He is dead – but alive. I can still feel him. You were. You’re not there, but you still give. Beautiful.

            With the living – we touch. Look, that’s who I am. Look, here I am. It’s me.
            Are you there?

          14. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I really enjoy you thinking out loud. So many things are connected I think. The cognitive empathy side to the narcissist or psychopath is really mind boggling. So many questions had to be asked and so many calculations still have to be made. I really feel for little HG having to ask and ask. It would have seemed strange to his siblings to explain things that to them were so obvious, so simple. We speak two different languages. That’s really what it amounts to.

            I think our ET possibly fills in the gaps. The narcissist cries, we project our empathy onto them and assume it is genuine. A normal might well project far less, fill in fewer gaps and perceive ‘fake’ more readily. Empathy really is projection, we contextualise what we see and hear with our own emotions, our own similar experiences and our calculations are based on that. ET has a lot to answer for in terms of clouding our vision.

            Looking at it in the opposite direction. The narcissist might well not understand or be able to categorise all of the emotions we display. It’s possible they group the emotion witnessed more as just positive or negative.

            I remember losing my temper once with my dad. The only occasion I think. He made some comment and I flew at him. Full on anger. He didn’t react, his expression didn’t change, he didn’t flinch. He silently walked forward and pulled me into his chest hugging me tightly. He recognised that this wasn’t anger, it was altogether something else. It was definitely something else. Frustration, exhaustion, isolation, powerlessness to change anything. It was me with my back against the wall, selecting fight mode. Nothing at all to do with his comment, that was just a trigger. My mum had the good sense to leave the room. She would have been entirely confused by what she saw. A narcissist, assuming he even wished to portray that he cared, couldn’t have recognised what that was. An empath recognised it instantaneously. Some of the threats to control have to occur due to a lack of recognition. An inability to categorise based on an absence of emotional empathy. People must be exceptionally confusing to the narcissist most of the time.

            Me too. I have thought too that HG has it tougher being recognised as a real authority on narcissism because he doesn’t show himself. That said, in terms of impact for listeners that do find him, he might actually have an advantage using this approach. Thinking about music again, and voice, not seeing HG in the videos closes down the distraction of sight. We listen only to his voice, we focus only there.

            People will often formulate an image in their minds of how someone looks. The reality might concur or it might diverge. Too young looking, he’s not wise or experienced enough. Too old, he’s not relatable to a younger listener and so on. Absence of the person, concentrates the mind on the message. HG uses one of his key strengths, his voice. I understand his not wanting to be recognised due to his other commitments and careers. As time goes on, this side of his work might grow to replace other commitments and at that point it might prove advantageous to add face to voice. Who knows?! Funnily enough the guys in my gaming team often suggest ‘Line App’ so we can all see each other. I have not agreed so far. I recognise I can keep better control of the team by leaving them to their imaginations! One man’s Lara Croft is another’s Jessica Rabbit.

            Me too LET, I had better pause here!


          15. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, your thoughts here are so beautiful and so simple.

            Such as “we speak two different languages”. It’s true.

            I remember visiting Germany for the first time as a young adult, not having any German under my belt. Thankfully a cousin was quite fluent in English and was able to translate. He must have been exhausted by the end of my stay, and I could have kissed the ground when I returned to an English speaking country. That’s what your comment reminded me of in the instant. The difficulty of communicating when you don’t speak the same language. Of course, it goes further and is much more complicated than that when it comes to the narcissist, basically never the twain shall meet.

            Somewhat sidetracked there, but your thoughts are so well put and make so much sense to me 🙂

            That is such an interesting story about your father, and what a beautiful moment between the two of you <3 He instantly understood what you needed, even though many people would have interpreted your mood and actions differently. I know those moments which I sometimes have with my own children. Your father recognized the moment for what it was, he didn't have to try to understand or interpret the situation. He just knew. And he knew what to do. That is very much an empathic response xox

            You have also expressed your thoughts around HG and his current status really well. It's a little like reading a story and formulating an image of the character in your mind, then someone makes a movie and you think "that's not how I imagined them" 🙁 The disappointment (possibly). Alternatively it could be a thrill (yes, Daniel Craig, if you could superimpose you face here 😛 )

            Just kidding, HG 😉 I know you are much better looking xox

            Haha to the idea of some of your team seeing you as Lara Croft and some as Jessica Rabbit! They are curious, like we are, to see the 'wizard' behind the curtain. I won't go down the Yellow Brick Road as there's not time for that now, but it's obvious you can understand from HG's perspective the importance of that element of mystery, too x

          16. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello Joa,

            I love this comment. It’s so true. I can totally understand why you would want to find out more about the person behind a song or book you connect with. It doesn’t feel enough sometimes just to enjoy the meaning of the song and leave it there. Sometimes you want more. This songwriter gets it, he touches you in some way and I think we want to understand why.

            I don’t know if you have ever heard of Leonard Cohen? His songwriting is incredibly moving to me. One song in particular.
            ‘A Thousand Kisses Deep’. It isn’t the song itself, the tune, or his voice. It’s the words. Incredibly meaningful. Not packed and wrapped with a bow, you have to interpret them. I did the same thing when I heard it. I read about the writer, to try to see what it was about him that enabled him to write in such a way that touched me. Have a listen, I think you’ll understand what I mean.


          17. Truthseeker6157 says:


            That’s a really great example, being in a foreign country and trying to speak the language. It’s utterly draining. It must feel very similar to that I think, less so, the more aware the narcissist.

            Laughing at the Daniel Craig comment. For me it would be Alexander Skaarsgaard (spelt incorrectly on purpose) although I think he is looking a bit ropey of late so have gone off him. No more Alexander for me. I’ll have to find me a replacement muse haha!

            I was walking the dog last night and that same song came on via playlist shuffle. I tell you what would be interesting. If we were to listen to it through headphones in a room at the same time. Like a languages lab where you have those listening booths. Record each shiver with intensity as it occurs, but then have HG in the third booth listening and through his cognitive empathy anticipating where we would both record a response. Now that would pit emotional against cognitive empathy really well I think. It’s abstract enough to not be obvious and would illustrate how HG would use other talents at his disposal to emulate a response. Such are the things I think about when walking the dog haha!


          18. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, spot on about the experience of trying to communicate in a foreign country being utterly draining, and for me that in some ways mirrors the relationship with the narcissist. We keep trying to interpret with no formal understanding and in the case of the narc we don’t even have hand gestures to help! Ultimately, it’s never about us anyway, and the narc does not want to understand or be understood. That certainly simplifies things … in other words, never visit the land of Narcdom 🙂

            Oh no, you have gone off your muse? TS, that does seem a little bit cutthroat 😛 My eldest daughter also has the hots for him, or did. Maybe I should ask her about her current status 😉 It would be interesting to know what switches those attraction genes on for us and why. Eyes are a big thing for me … Daniel Craig has the most stunning blue eyes <3 Let me know when you find your replacement (feeling better knowing Daniel Craig isn't on your radar xox)

            Haha, I see you are wanting to experiment on me again 🙂 I have become a guinea pig! Strangely, a willing one as I enjoy the thought of this experiment and would be fascinated to know what HG's cognitive empathy would tell him. How could he possibly guess where we would feel the 'shivers', or if we would even feel them in the first place? It is very abstract, and I don't know how HG could emulate that response apart from touch. Although, it is possible perhaps to experience this from his audios I would assume. For now, we are talking about music and it would be down to some very fine tuning to determine which empath might feel the 'shivers' and where 🙂

            I'm not sure at this point if I should suggest you walk the dog more or less <3 xox

          19. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I laughed out loud about your walking the dog comment. Haha, I know, when I’m locked on to something and I want to understand I’ll turn it round and round for ages! I listen to YouTube or podcasts usually, rare I listen to music when I’m walking him. If I get too absorbed I feel guilty for not focussing on the dog during ‘our time’. I slowed down the other night, said his name so he looked up at me and wagged. I had to stop and love on him for a minute I felt so bad. How’s that for being an empath? Haha! Someone just give me the bullet!

            I know you enjoy the magic of experiences so I won’t go into detail, but there are things I’ve noticed about when and why those shivers happen, it’s possible high cognitive empathy could get a certain percentage strike rate on estimating the shiver response but not always. The emotional response I think would be tougher. I think that’s more individual and relates more to memories and experiences. Even as well as you and I understand each other, I don’t think I could necessarily select songs for you to bring on an emotional reaction if that makes sense? Another reason for guarding the contents of my dark playlist. It reveals too much! The fact remains though that we experience music and memories very similarly and somewhere in our brain there is a reason for that.

            The field of psychology is relying more heavily on neuroscience. On the one hand I find that exciting, but on the other, concerning. I agree science can remove the magic. Similarly just because our brains light up in one situation, doesn’t necessarily mean they would light up in all similar situations. Music demonstrates that very well I think. We need to look at the experiences and world view of an individual to establish why they relate emotionally to one song and not another, rather than assume that all ‘sad’ music would bring on a feeling of melancholy for example. It wouldn’t. I just hope psychologists don’t blindly follow images of brain activity and leap to conclusions that are too rigid.

            Courtrooms rely on DNA to prove culpability. Imagine if they relied on brain scans.

            Laughing at me wanting to experiment on you. No, I wouldn’t want to spoil the magic either. Although, maybe, just this once! Haha!


          20. Joa says:

            TS, LET,

            “We speak two different languages” – I have never had a problem communicating abroad without knowing the language. A bit of sign language, a bit of a mixture of words from several European countries. It was very funny 😊 And so e.g. I was able to spend a great vacation with two accidentally met Swiss paragliders, a stray Russian and a Bulgarian, also a random Romanian at the age of 65, who himself felt the role of a guide, “by force” took a place in our in the car and for a few weeks he showed us his country from the Hungarian border to the Black Sea. Theoretically, no one understood anyone, and yet we all understood each other perfectly and had a great time 😊

            Similar. Narcissus and empath theoretically do not understand each other, they do not see each other. And yet they attract each other, communicate and are with each other 😊


            TS, I don’t know if we’re filling the narcissus’s gaps. It seems to pass through a sieve. On the other hand, “my N” certainly filled many of my gaps. He showed me many shortcomings in me. He told me straight (though I denied it, when it was too brutal, but then it came to my senses and I even thanked him). In a way – in this cruel way – he healed me. Maybe there is no other way to reach the person, who does not want to see? Uuuaaa, I just said how he 😊 Indoctrination still going strong 😊


            LET, today I accidentally popped up a photo of Daniel Craig. Ekhm… Such an uglier version of Putin, ha ha ha 😊 Yes, I know this is a slander and profanation! But at least you have him only for yourself, ha ha ha 😊


            TS, for me it’s even more with these biographies. When I hear a few notes of a song and know this will be my next obsession, I turn it off immediately. I see a picture, I read THIS significant line of a poem, a paragraph of prose – and break away. I enjoy waiting and build the tension myself. At this time, I am looking for everything about the author. Only when I satisfy my curiosity, when this human becomes closer to me, when I know something about him and start to build his image in my head – only then do I plunge into what intrigued me, it dawned on me. I contemplate this moment. I analyze how the image of this man in my head changes as a result of the successive “data”. I do not make an effort, it just flows in me and gives me pleasure. And when I “melt” everything out of this obsession, I look for another one.
            Same as narcissus with living “objects” 😊

            Leonard Cohen – of course, he was of Polish-Lithuanian origin, how could I not know him? 😊 About 25 years ago, I liked to listen him it with the first N (we listened to a lot of music, moreover, I am still bombarded, mainly with ska and reggae, sometimes he will manage to hit my taste and mood with something cool, although I laugh at him that he is already musically “grandfather” and does not go with the times 😛 ).
            I still like when Leonard Cohen is on the radio. It used to be one of my mother’s favorite singers. A very warm voice.

            A calm and gentle song – as indicated by you before 🙂

            I must have more lively or unexpected accelerations, variations 🙂 My daughter prefers calmer, more uniform, just like you.

          21. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Joa, LET,

            It took me ages to find this thread again haha! I couldn’t remember where we were and had no notifications coming through. I also can’t like comments at the moment, so please don’t think I’m purposely leaving comments unmarked, it just crashes the page when I try to like.

            Joa, I do love the way you think about things. I don’t think we fill the gaps for the narcissist. I agree that they do fill the gaps for us sometimes. The online narc would strike right to the heart of my thought process, question and on occasion call me out on my thinking. Like you, I would take another look at my thought process and often see what he was driving at. This wasn’t personal criticism, it was more to do with the way I look at things and why. In some ways, as an unaware narcissist, I think he was confused by my thoughts, I was almost a curiosity I think. Someone he couldn’t figure out, someone perhaps unresponsive to his go to methods of manipulation,

            It’s also interesting the way you look at song writers and authors. I do similar, it isn’t enough for me to love a piece of music or a book, I need to know about the author. I haven’t really considered why, I put it down just to curiosity but I think perhaps I too am reaching to understand the person rather than just benefitting from the talent.

            This might also suggest why empaths like the Knowing HG series, it’s a natural desire to understand the person behind the words.

            I laughed at your tour guide. He sounds like he was from Lancashire England. Ask us for directions and we will similarly do everything but jump in the car and drive you there ourselves!

            The narcissist and the empath seek very different things, but in some ways, I disagree with you, I think we do speak a similar language. Both groups are highly in tune to emotions. The narcissist draws them in like oxygen, we view everything through an emotional lense and emotion seeps through us. Normals are far less in tune with any emotional language in my experience.

            That said, I don’t consider myself overtly emotional. I honestly think I’d make a terrible IPPS! I am very controlled as far as showing negative emotion. To me, showing anger is a sign of weakness. For me personally at least. So to get me into a position where I would erupt, would be viewed by me as a failure and I would never give the narcissist the satisfaction.

            Positive emotion wise, I’m also understated. I don’t respond to elaborate gifts or wining and dining, I’m not going to gush with thanks or praise necessarily ( 0% geyser) so for the most part I’d be terrible haha! I am actually extremely loving and loyal but it’s all in the eyes, the hold, the touch, the looks, the smile. I do light up, but I don’t pour with emotion verbally, so the narcissist would have a very spasmodic fuel supply, extreme highs then seeming flatlines of fuel provision. My emotional language is more like your guide, not obvious, takes a desire to understand. Hopefully my poor language skills mean that I’m too much effort for the narcissist to bother with. Funnily enough I said exactly this to the online narcissist before I knew what he was. “The real problem for you, is that I fall into the too difficult box.” I think unwittingly, I might have been correct.

            Leonard Cohen, haha, he isn’t my usual musical taste. There are a handful of songs though that really touch me. In my mind he writes like an empath. I’m starting to notice the difference between narc and empath songwriters. The narcissist lays it all out. Hearts, flowers, emotions described and depicted in glorious technicolour detail. The empath speaks in half sentences, unfinished thoughts. Emotions are suggested and left for the listener to complete and interpret. The empath is far less overt and obvious in their song writing. This is not to say this couldn’t be mimicked, but on the whole, the empath with their genuine emotion finds it more difficult to verbalise the depth of feeling. It what is unsaid in the music, that is more revealing than what is said. This is why I love Cohen’s writing, for all that is left unsaid.


        2. A Victor says:

          TS, where have you seen that CoD and SE are next to each other on the empathy scale? In Sitting Target or Chained? Thanks

      3. That is a really interesting combo Lickem! I imagine you’re a rare breed indeed. But when you explain it as you do…makes perfect sense.

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          Thanks, Alexis 🙂

          I guess it is an interesting combo as it includes what would appear to be two opposing schools, and I’m sure there are times they are in conflict with eachother, or moments where one is dominant over the other, but how the choice is made is a mystery to me.

          Not sure if I’m a rare breed, but I have three Schools of which 10% is Standard, the rest made up of CoD and Super. More of a weirdo than a rare breed, methinks 😉

      4. Joa says:

        Ah, LET, how much you are like me and my sister.

        This situation with the doll 🙂 We did the same too. Ugly and poor were the most dear to us 🙂

        We are attached not only to people, but also to animals and things (I fight with the latter).

        Dog? Only from the shelter, preferably one that has been there for many years, is bitten, agrsive or apathetic. Such a completely resigned, who will not wag his tail and is depressed. A very difficult case to derive – and I want it already 🙂

        Man? Always the most lost, looking for the way, needing “spiritual” help (we are x-raying masks).

        I was touched LET, I love such people 🙂

        At my place:
        – mom is N.
        – my real father – it is difficult to say – in the pictures he is deer-eyed, escaped into the world of illusions and alcohol, committed suicide.
        – in any case, I was brought up by N.’s stepfather, a psychopath (I have no doubts).

        – I am a empath of goat
        – my sister empath of gold

        We lived in a strictly isolated environment, with hundreds of rules that were not have by other children, selected friends, limited contact.
        Completely unsuited to life outside.

        My sister and I were very close to each other. There is less than a year of difference between us, I am older. Triangulated by my mother all our life.
        Sister always “copied” me, which I guess was driving me, and it helped her to hold a stiff spine.

        So, either genes, or both with my sister, we became… an inspiration 🙂

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          Ah, Joa, it’s so encouraging when other people can identify with you and your experiences 🙂 I know I’m not the only one who reacts in that way to ‘unlovable’ things, which also includes animals as you say. When we were young we lived not far from an animal shelter which was for lost dogs. Occasionally we would visit (not sure why now as my mother hated animals) and always came home crying for the unwanted pets 🙁 It broke my heart as a little girl not to be able to scoop them all up and bring them home. Especially the most unlovable <3

          You can imagine how that works when it comes to people.

          It sounds like your father might have been an empath, but with so little detail it would be hard for you to know. It does seem narcissists are less likely to take their own lives, where an empath could be more likely pushed to that point. It is sad that you never had a chance to know him, and especially sad if he could have intervened in any way. Although, I see you are strong and shining in spite of your experiences <3

          Do you mean your stepfather was a psychopath? That would have tested all your abilities to stay safe in that environment, I'm sure. It sounds like you were very isolated, which would suit the narcissist and psychopath alike. I'm wondering if you found your escape in books and stories? Perhaps that's all that was left to you, being isolated from so many other things.

          It sounds like you were brave in the circumstances, too. Your sister took your lead. It's terrible how narcissist parents triangulate their children in order to divide and conquer, ensuring that way they maintain control. Who do we have when our parent's die to maintain those family ties except our siblings? I'm glad to hear you were close and that she is an empath, too 🙂 That is inspiring in the circumstances you describe.

          An empath of 'goat' and an empath of 'gold' 😉

          We have an expression, also 'goat', which is an acronym for "Greatest Of All Time", but I'm sure you mean you are stubborn like a goat 🙂 You may also be a great empath, of course 😉

          1. Joa says:

            LET, maybe your mom wanted to evoke these emotions in you? And at the same time, she cared for the facade of a sensitive person.
            My sister and I felt the same way. When the two of us only lived, there was a real zoo in the house. It is difficult to count how many sick birds, unwanted rodents, etc. But it is my sister’s “merit” – she still does not know moderation in this respect, she wants to help everyone, which unfortunately takes place at the expense of her marriage.

            Yes, I have the feeling that my stepfather was more than just a narcissist. Sadistic passion – fortunately not physical. Physical aggression only came at the very end, when we started to break away from him.

            Goat – more like a scapegoat. My sister was my mother’s favorite. I have always felt aside from the side. I was a favorite of my father and stepfather.

            Yes! Literature was a form of escape. This was ONLY MY area. ONLY MY WORLD. Both my sister and I ran away into the world of books and the world of dreams.
            I also wrote a lot, mainly my thoughts. Unfortunately, all my “caches” were found and my written thoughts were used against me. So I wrote and after a while I destroyed. I still do this today. I only write for myself as soon as it inspires me. When there is nothing else at hand, and I have to, I have to, I have to, it’s on bills, envelopes, documents, ha ha ha 😊 Scribble everywhere 😊

            Yes, especially now being close to my sister is important to me. We rarely see each other, but we talk and write, although we basically understand each other without words. Today I got from my mother an extensive, written elaboration, that I do not think about my old parents at all (her current man apparently loves me like a “father”!!!) with the punch line, that she no longer has a daughter and granddaughter. Interestingly, it didn’t hurt me that much. I feel too much relief, I used to wear it for 40+ years of my life… And I can see, that I have lifted a heavy burden from my daughter’s shoulders, which makes me happy (thank you HG!). I only replied with six words. Accurate, precise… cruelly (in the same style). Yes, I can be cruel. I won’t cut off the contact, I don’t want to hurt her, just I wait for the litany of accusations and self-pity to end. Playing with disease and dying doesn’t work for me anymore (my god, my mother has already died 1000 times! :)) I am waiting for even a temporary change of tactics.

            Thank you for the many nice words from you. I just adapted to the situation.
            I hug you and I wish you many pleasant and warm moments before Christmas 😊

          2. lickemtomorrow says:

            Joa, never put it past the narcissist to want to evoke emotion as part of fulfilling their need for the Prime Aims. I think you are right in mentioning the facade and how doing what she did was more for ‘show’ … as so many things were. How did I know they weren’t sincere? Something in my bones just told me. Perhaps we begged her to go, maybe it was future faking the option of a pet to bring home, maybe she wanted to fulfill society’s obligation of owning a pet – much like the narcissist might marry to fulfill a societal obligation as it improves his status and sense of stability. She did what she was supposed to do and maybe considering pet ownership was one of those things. I can state categorically she never bonded with a single animal we owned. Keeping with the Christmas theme, I remember her spraying the Christmas tree with fly spray so that the cat would keep away from it 😛 Cats have a penchant for things dangling from trees … no surprises there!

            Your sister sounds like she has a big heart, one that’s almost too big for her own good <3 The lack of boundaries is often a consequence of an upbringing around a narcissist. We don't know how to hold boundaries because the narcissist has robbed us of them. We are an extension of the narcissist, no boundaries exist in their world between us and them. We are one. It's very hard for empaths to institute boundaries after being exposed to this boundary-less existence as a child. I continue to struggle to set boundaries in my own life at times and more often than not it is to my detriment. Your sister may not see or understand the struggle she has with boundaries and how that is impacting her marriage. You can see it from the outside, and she may not have the strength you seem to have developed in this area. I think you are both empaths, but different types. She definitely sounds like she has a Saviour element to her nature. I can very much relate to this. We are the rescuers x

            I see now the 'goat' you are talking about is the 'scapegoat'. My situation is similar with two siblings, brother and sister, taking the position of the 'golden children' while I was being treated as the scapegoat. At the same time, my father used me in some ways to cater to his needs, which I don't interpret as being the golden child as I did not feel favoured, more just doing the co-dependent thing of putting myself last. I had wondered more recently what would happen in this combination style situation where you are treated as the scapegoat by one parent and the golden child by the other, and guessed in my circumstances it led to a strange combination of CoD and Super being my main schools. I'm an anomaly. Maybe you are, too 😉

            I love the fact that you write as a form of expression, and always done so beautifully here <3 This has been your escape, and it's awful to think of how something so precious was discovered and destroyed. I understand now why you destroy what you have created, but what a terrible shame that you don't have a sense of safety in your expression 🙁 The good news is those thoughts will continue to flow and no one can take them away from you. They belong to you and they are yours. Whether they find expression on a bill, envelope, document, they are precious and a part of yourself which even for a moment has found its way out of the darkness and into the light. Writing is cathartic on so many levels. Others also benefit from what they read. Sometimes it is just for ourselves, and sometimes it is for others, too.

            Your mother has given you a 'pity play', oh how some narcissists love those! She will not like your curt response, but your boundary setting in the circumstances is impressive. Letting her know you received her letter, providing a short response in reply perhaps inviting her to drop the pity play and reassure her at the same time you and your daughter are not completely lost to her. The ball is in her court again now. I think narcissists will try on various cloaks – or methods of assertion of control – before they find one that fits for their purposes. Her next move could be 'withdrawal' as a means of drawing you out, so it will be interesting to see how she responds if you care to share when the time comes, Joa. As you say, you are waiting for a temporary change of tactics!

            Thank you for your kind wishes and I wish the same for you. We are only a few days away from Christmas now and I feel my preparations are far behind! Nevertheless, it is something to look forward to for me and this year I'm rejoicing at how distant my narcissist has become and how much further removed I am from him compared to this time last year <3 That will be my wish here for everyone's Christmas this year … that the longing and pining for the narcissist is removed and swapped for genuine fellowship with others. In that sense we are fortunate to be here and hopefully we can all look forward to the New Year xox

    6. Leigh says:

      I love these conversations! I think we are missing some info somewhere though. Both my parents are narcissists, I had a LOCE, I had no intervener and I’m a majority standard empath, strong minority super, no CoD.

      Asp mentions getting the gene from the maternal grandmother. I didn’t know her very well but she could have been an empath. I guess I could have gotten the gene from her and thats why I became an empath. I had no one who intervened. I had to figure out how to protect myself and my siblings.

      I’m looking forward to Mr. Tudor’s next interview so we can get more answers.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hey Leigh,

        Me too. When looking at genes, they pretty much go back to great grandparents if tracing where certain genes come from in DNA. You can inherit characteristics from further back in the family line, but the further back you go the more rare this is.

        So it would be realistic to have inherited the empathy gene from your grandmother. I’m tempted to stay a Standard Empath carries only the Empath gene. So she would never be at risk of becoming a narcissist despite narcissistic parents and LOCE.

        Unfortunately I don’t know enough about how genes work. With both parents being narcissists I don’t know if that means you would have to have a predisposition towards narcissist or, if those narcissist genes could potentially skip you entirely leaving you with the empathy gene from your grandmother.

        I should have paid more attention in Biology lessons. Sadly, I was likely socialising at the time!


        1. A Victor says:

          TS, I should’ve read your comment before making the one I just posted! 🙂

      2. lickemtomorrow says:

        Leigh, I think the intervener is more needed in the case of preventing a narcissist from becoming a narcissist, as opposed to an empath needing that as they will naturally be empathic, but their empathic traits may be dimmed due to their LOCE. Genetically you must have been an empath to begin with, making you a Standard, and your circumstances may have caused your more narcissistic traits to come to the fore in the form of your Super. It breaks my heart to think you had no one to intervene and help you to see your goodness, but it seems to have shone through anyway in your efforts to protect your siblings. That again tells me that your empathy developed it’s Super element in the refining fires of your LOCE, with the dimming of some empathic traits in order to survive. Of course, this is all hypothetical on my part again, but we’ll both be looking forward to HGs next interview with Doug to hopefully gain some more answers <3

        1. Leigh says:

          TS & LET, you guys really have me thinking now. Maybe the reason I’m not CoD is because I don’t have the gene for narcissism at all??? The CoD starts off towards narcissism and then something switches. If I don’t have the gene then no CoD??? I don’t know. So it seems since I only have the gene for empathy I became a standard empath and the super only developed because of the LOCE. I’m only hypothesizing but that seems to make sense.

          You’ve given me some food for thought. Thank you both.

          Thank you for your kind words LET. When I read my words I say, “Holy Moly, that sounds terrible.” I’m ok though. I’m resilient.

        2. A Victor says:

          LET, thank you for the reminder that empaths are not the ones who need an intervener, I had forgotten that.

      3. A Victor says:

        Leigh, I wrote something similar to Leela also! How did we happen??? Haha! Are you the other double ACON she was referring to here? I wonder if there are others.

        One thing to mention, a few years ago I saw a photo of my great grandpa and I immediately knew where my nose had come from. I had always wondered. There is one other person in my family, a distant cousin, who has it also but otherwise, no one. I thought I was adopted for a while as a kid, I didn’t look like anyone in my family. But, those genes came from further back, I believe this is possible with all genes. So we may not ever know the person we got them from.

        I look forward to his next interview also.

        1. Leigh says:

          AV, I know. Where did I get that empathy gene??? I’m guessing my grandmother but I hardly knew her so who knows. I believe Fiddleress is a double ACON also.

          It think we are Standard empaths because we only have the empath gene. No narc gene. I think it we had the narc gene, we would have some CoD too. I’m guessing supers don’t have the narc gene either. Maybe the super is based on the LOCE.

          1. A Victor says:

            I don’t know, HG said empoaths don’t have the narc gene, in the interview. But maybe it’s recessive in them sometimes? Genes don’t actually skip they just come recessive or dominant. I think we have to wait until he tells us. I’m excited to understand it though!

  9. vandenboss says:

    What a great interview,came across it so late! And indeed,Meghan ain’t even good in being a narcissist,i mean a narcissist that cant act haha…like a prostitute without a p*ssy!

  10. Joa says:

    HG himself makes much better and valuable films. I treat this one as an advertisement in some kind of environment. Excessive amount of “wow” used 😊

    I liked the comparison with the clock face. Great!

    I was impressed by the use of separate telephones for different purposes. Yesterday he wrote me “my N” and I didn’t even have to read, to know what the nature of the message would be. It was enough to look at which e-mail address he sent the message from (he has different ones). Still a black box, but with a chance for white. I do nothing and my assets grow.

    Here I have to thank HG. I used to feel. I used to understand subconsciously. But I didn’t visualize and rank it as well as I do now. Currently, I read a message from him as follows: “Greeting, false concern, assurance, secrecy, resistance, future promise, explanation, rapprochement.” The most important thing was to use the name in the signature – it’s an honor. I already know what his next move will be. Everything as planned, but too soon.

  11. MB says:

    Excellent interview my man! I want to know more about the formation of empaths as it relates to OUR coping mechanism too. I see in myself various behaviors that allow me to move through life with as little amount of conflict as possible as I am extremely conflict averse. There is no doubt that I began life with the lack of control environment and the genetic predisposition to become a narcissist and can remember behaviors exhibiting such until about age 5 or 6. When presented with the fork in the road, I shifted coping mechanism in order to be accepted and loved as I perceived it. Personality formation is such a fascinating and expansive topic and you explain it so clearly and effortlessly. I hope I live to see the day that HG Tudor is as much of a household name as Dr Phil.

    1. A Victor says:

      From what it sounds like it may not be that far off, that HG is a household name! Yay!! I will miss him but better for the big picture!

  12. Truthseeker6157 says:

    I think these interviews with Doug work extremely well. Doug asks the right questions and in a very similar way to the way the empaths do here on the blog. Respectful but searching.

    Doug is clearly an empath, I find myself wondering about his school and cadre. Have you suggested he take the EDC HG? That would make for an interesting discussion. It would also demonstrate the fact that your empath terminology is based on measurable criteria.

    Detractors would argue that empaths don’t exist and there is an element of us just wanting to be different that you are capitalising on. The blog demonstrates this isn’t the case, but not all listeners will visit the blog and read the discussions we have here.

    Next interview, If you and Doug are going to discuss more about the formation of different kinds of empath and Doug is open to discussing his results during the interview, the EDC and TDC might be an interesting basis for discussion. It would also highlight the detectors you offer, which are extremely valuable in terms of recovery.

    Just a thought. I loved the interview, you ‘sound’ like you do here on the blog. Approachable, honest, respectful of the background of the interviewer.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I do not believe he has undertaken the EDC, no.

      1. Truthseeker6157 says:


        Ive been researching Scientology a little today. The very first thing they do is get you to take a 200 point personality questionnaire. I’d like to withdraw my suggestion above for obvious reasons. My mistake.

  13. Witch says:

    When you say codependents were on their way to being narcissists do you think this where sam v recognises that but gets it wrong by referring them to a subtype of narcissist (the inverted narcissist?) I do think my codependent tendencies are pathological but I’ve been able to control it with knowledge. However with some codependents I wouldn’t hold my breath that they will ever get to the point that they don’t have a narc in their close circle

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Possibly. The concept of an inverted narcissist is unhelpful.

      1. Witch says:

        I agree it’s not helpful because they aren’t narcissists and I think some of the conclusions SV makes are driven by his resentment towards his ex’s and his mother.
        But I definitely see the connection between codependents and narcissists like the yin and yang… it feels almost impossible for one to exist without the other. But then again we are all branches of the same source

        1. Asp Emp says:

          Witch, great wording RE: “But then again we are all branches of the same source”. We are, thank you for saying so.

    2. A Victor says:

      Witch, I am glad to hear from one who has had success at controlling the Codepencency. Thank you for sharing that.

  14. Sweetest Perfection says:

    I was gonna say I love Doug, when I realize that’s not it. I love the interaction between you and Doug. The candor he exhibits in his inquiries paired with your savoir faire following the vibes of the interview is really engaging. This is #3 and I think the interest hasn’t waned from the first one, on the contrary, it goes in crescendo. I’m gonna go from the particular to the universal, which in the interview happened in the reversed order: from the final part talking about the mundane back to the beginning, where you made quite an entrance (as is the inevitable condition of the Ultra). Doug’s request to elaborate on “a day in the life of HG Tudor” is basically what we all wanted to know and never asked. Of course there is room for more. For example, in between the waking up at 5:30/exercise/ shower and the next phase, “I eat,” you left out essential information about your beauty routine, which some of your followers, like this humble reader here, have had some hints of in previous articles. I must confess -not without fear, as Empaths understandably keep a “healthy frightened respect” towards you- my nasty imagination tried to fill the gaps between your girlfriend’s going to bed at 10:30-11:0 and you around 1:00 am. Yeah, you mention movies, narc detectors etc., but I learned from the best that sometimes there’s a “Hidden Engagement” during those sleeping hours.
    Anyhow, let’s continue with the interview. I found rather odd to hear you toy with MRN narcs but not with Empath consultants. It would seem more logical you tried to engage empaths. But I understand, MRN are obnoxious so it’s fun to play with them. Your account of a day in your life teaches us a great deal about compartmentalizing, fuel dependency and acquisition, need of control, adaptability to wear different masks and keep the façade, and highly evolved level of functionality in sophisticated narcissists as opposed to lower schools. Impressive, and exhausting. 4 hours of sleep is worthy of a God… “ex machina.”
    Memorable quotes I wrote down with a smile in my face as I listened:
    “I also know my victims inside out.”
    [Death] it won’t be any time soon.”
    “I don’t care about helping people. People get helped.”
    My ultrasuperfavorite: “I move like a shark in the water.”
    My cognitive dissonance will help me pretend you didn’t compare yourself to Ted Bundy. That didn’t happen. No. No.
    The transcendental part, what I called the universal, however, took place during the first minute in the introduction which could go unnoticed because of the fast pace of the conversation. And just in a second, it transported me here:
    “The living record of your memory. /
    ’Gainst death and all-oblivious enmity / Shall you pace forth; your praise shall still find room / Even in the eyes of all posterity /That wear this world out to the ending doom. /
    So, till the Judgement that yourself arise,/ You live in this, and dwell in lovers’ eyes.”
    “Lovers” being us, Tudorites, of course.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for sharing your observations SP, I found them very interesting. I am pleased you enjoyed the discussion between the two of us. We are speaking again in January.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        I’m glad you found it interesting and to have another one to look forward to. “Google Calendar: January 2022. HG interview.” Noted!

  15. Asp Emp says:

    “the biggest threat to our control is death” and the fact your legacy will live on.

    I thought to myself, it is also a way of ‘asserting control’ by ‘projecting’ your ‘control’ ahead of time, whether it is direct or indirect ‘revenge’ on those who caused you pain when a child and throughout your life.

    You are also ahead of time in the world of science, especially in relation to add your knowledge on narcissism to what the medical professionals have not quite ‘caught up’ on (as yet). Adding to educating on understanding the inner minds of those with narcissism, and the victims of narcissistic abuse.

    From (12:40) “of course you could downplay all of that lose the jewellery turn up wearing some you know pair of Levi’s and such like you don’t have to go wearing the designer outfits”……reminds me of that higher-up at work, she never turned up in clothes that were necessarily ‘correct’ for the ‘circumstance / environment’. She always went ‘overboard’, only because of the position she held within the organisation. Even at events held by other organisations, she had to always ‘up’ others. So like MM but with ‘evolved’ narcissism.

    Laughing…… “….are wander alongs” (16:11).

    Reading what you say in relation to her narcissism not having ‘evolved’ compared to other narcissists highlights the fact she never ‘learned’ to ‘manage’ her narcissism (if I can put it that way). I had (it just occurred to me!) wondered if this was the case with muvver because she never really mixed in society, hence her inability to deal with the fact she lost her main fuel source (my father, hence partly why she drank to “re-direct” her needs for fuel by ‘replacing’ it with alcohol) and the fact he was the one that was getting known in ‘elite’ circles as such, yet she was obtaining further fuel by just being with him within these ‘circles’. I would suggest that would have increased her fury ‘levels’ leading to the physical violence being bad (just a moment of increased ET, only because I am sharing my experiences here). Effectively, she was in a tight ‘vicious circle’ (I am not projecting any sympathy towards her – just making a statement of fact based on my understanding narcissism and, unfortunately, knowing her).

    Ah, bless him, Doug for saying that you deserve (recognition / acknowledgement) because you worked so freaking hard…..I totally agree. Good of him to say.

    Brilliant! To read that the Royal Family may have picked up on your work RE: the Montishitso couple. Of course, it would quite possibly that there are people that act as ‘look-outs’ for the Royal Family. Obviously, the Royal Family are not necessarily going to be coming out and saying this and that about members of their family.

    (24:30) “although I take the mick with some of my observations”…….oh, no, HG you’re not guilty of that, are you 😉

    MM is not going to ‘acknowledge’ what you have said about her, nor ‘challenge’ you either. Then again, she may NOT have ‘learned’ after Piers Morgan’s success with the official complaint she made about him.

    I liked the describing of KTN site as ‘blog world’, it is apt. Because it is a world in itself.

    That was really interesting to read about the empaths and narcissists within ‘blog world’. That was one of a surprise, yet not a surprise, in relation to the narcissists interactions with you. We, on ‘blog world’ have seen it too 😉 I must note that I did pick up on a certain ‘visitor’ commenting on Doug’s channel under this particular video….

    Great to see an update on Shieldmaiden and more details on how you keep your separate pseudonyms under the radar. Of course, the usual ‘deflections’ to prevent anyone getting ‘too close’ into your actions when you are working. That has to be commended on how you manage to maintain that and yet still keep them all separately.

    That was an interesting fact RE: those genetically pre-disposed to become empaths within their environment would lead to the formation of the 3 main schools you mentioned – Standard; Co-Dependent and Super. I now have a better understanding about myself in that respect, and that I have to take into consideration my other (comorbidities), providing I understand the separate ‘components’ of myself as a ‘whole’.

    Much thanks to Doug for doing this interview with you and for including the questions that he ‘touched’ on from the last interview (Part 2). He brought up some good and valid questions that prompted good responses from yourself.

    Thank you for posting this video on KTN blog. It was good to read.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        🙂 thank you, HG.

  16. Fiddleress says:

    Also, it’s very interesting what you say, HG, around 50 mnutes about narcissists/empaths. I agree that in a way, they are not so far removed from each other.

  17. Fiddleress says:

    This was a great interview, I really enjoyed it. Doug sounds like a great guy too.

  18. k mac says:

  19. A Victor says:

    This is a fantastic interview, thank you for posting it here. I am sitting here in tears having just finished the first Gabby Petito video from today. It is so sad, I can’t believe it, but so thankful for your take on it HG, it makes sense out of the senseless and is such a great tool for learning. More to share with my daughter, who is watching this case very closely. I hope she takes it to heart.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  20. Eyes Peeled says:

    Thanks for posting these videos hg as they are very interesting.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

    2. k mac says:

      Fascinating stuff for sure.

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