Why Can’t They See it Too? The Narcissist´s Facade At Work

 

 

“Okay,” you announce as you turn to the small group of like-minded individuals stood with you, “he will be here any minute.” The members of the group nod. You had hoped there would be more of you, ready and willing to protest, to point out to other people just what I am like.

When you approached people to gather their support there was a mixture of reactions. A handful immediately agreed and they were vocal and enthusiastic in their support. Others explained that they had other things to do on this day and would not be able to participate in the protest. You emphasised the importance of the protest not only to you but in sending out a message to the others who would be watching but they were unmoved.

The apologies seemed genuine as they explained how they had an existing engagement or they could not let somebody else down. There was also a group of people who agreed but come the day of the protest they were nowhere to be seen. Still, there are five of you and with a concerted effort you should be able to make sufficient noise to attract my attention. The banners and placards should get the message across as well. You have secured an excellent vantage point which means as my car pulls up outside this prestigious building I will have no option but to walk past you and your small band of supporters.

There is a nervous excitement in your stomach as you contemplate at long last being able to give me a dose of the truth and also to let the wider world know that I am not the wonderful person I pretend to be but someone altogether more despicable and darker. You have managed to attract the interest of a couple of local news channels who are setup nearby, cameramen and reporters clustered together waiting to cover the event.

You promised them revelations about a prominent business man and you cannot wait to see the reactions when you reveal the truth. For too long you have suffered at my mouth and hands and now it is time for some justice. You heft the placard in your hand which has “Serial Abuser” daubed on it in large letters. A banner has been draped across the wall. It is a professional-looking banner which declares – “Abuser Alcoholic Adulterer Aggressor”.

You glance at the other placards held by your supporters which detail a range of truths about me which will no doubt infuriate me when I see them and realise they are being broadcast to a wider audience. As you are checking over these placards you notice that a lot of people are streaming into the square. There were some passers-by as there usually are along with people sitting down for lunch on a bench but there are far more people now striding across the square and they are doing so purposefully as they head towards where you are.

“Who are this lot?” you ask. Your supporters turn to see the many people who are now streaming into the square. You notice that they are carrying their own banners and placards.

“It looks like we’ve attracted some additional support,” says one of your friends.

“Excellent,” you smile, “it looks like word has spread.”

“Hey look, there’s Angela, she has decided to come after all,” adds another friend.

“Yes and Tina and Paula. In fact, there’s quite a few of them who said they were busy have turned up. Fantastic!” another friend remarks.

You call out to Angela, waving at her. She turns her head in your direction but rather than the warm smile and enthusiastic return wave you were expecting she shoots you a haughty look and turns away. You halt waving, arm still in the air, puzzled by her reaction. You see Angela nudge Tina who also turns your way and she aggressively pushes the placard she is carrying up and down. You see the word “Hero” written on it Paula’s placard is also then displayed with the words “Golden Boy”.

“What’s going on?” asks a friend nervously. You watch as the group who you thought were friends that you can rely on take up position a little distance away from you. You contemplate going to speak to them but they are soon obscured by the other people who have flooded into the square. You recognise a few faces, some are friends of mine, others are colleagues of mine you have met once or twice and they all carry placards, signs and banners. You feel a sense of dread creeping over you as you look at the writing on them,

“A true gent”

“Generous donor”

“A brilliant friend”

“Amazing lover”

“Pillar of the community”

“Loving son”

“Marvellous brother”

Compliments. A sea of painted and printed compliments that are now being waved in the air as you find you are surrounded by scores of my supporters. You see the television crews panning their cameras across the crowd of eager and enthusiastic people who are chanting my name.

“What is going on?” you wonder aloud. You try to fight down the spreading sensation of anxiety, drawing on the determination which caused you to come here ready to unmask me.

“We need to make ourselves heard,” you announce and turn to rally your supporters only to find they have gone.

“What?” you say to nobody in particular. The placards decrying me lie on the floor and you look around trying to spot your friends who were stood there just a moment ago ready to protest and show me for what I really am. You see one of your friends across the way and you try to push through the mass of people but it is no use. Your mouth falls open as you see your friend now enthusiastically waving a placard which reads “I love you”.

Fuming you turn back to the wall to find a man tugging at your banner.

“Hey, leave that!” you shout at him.

“What did you say?” he asks aggressively.

“I said to leave that banner.”

You push your way to him and try to remove his hands from the banner.

“This is coming down,” he says, “such awful things to say about a great person.”

“What are you talking about?” you say.

“This,” he jabs a finger at the banner, “all lies.”

“No they are not, believe me I know exactly what he is like.”

“Hold on a moment, you are that psycho who has been stalking him aren’t you?” asks the man as a moment of realisation washes over him.

“Me a psycho? Is that what he has been saying about me? That isn’t a surprise. He is the psycho, do you know what that man has done to me? He has put me through hell.”

“Ridiculous. It is just jealousy on your part. You were nobody before he came along and he gave you so much only for you to be cheat on him. You should be ashamed of yourself you whore!” spits the man.

“More lies!” you shout back, but he is not listening as a huge roar erupts from the crowd. You forget about the banner and instead you lean across the wall vigorously waving your placard as my car sweeps into view. The car stops and two black-suited men leap out, wearing sunglasses and they sweep their gaze around the crowd before I get out of the car, immaculately attired, waving at the assembled throng with a broad smile across my face. The cameras swing round and focus on me as my name is chanted in unison. You do your best to make yourself heard, screaming the truths about my real nature as loud as you can but it is to no avail as the chanting of the zealous and appreciative crowd drowns you out. Your frustration mounts as you watch me soaking up the adulation. I walk towards the crowd, flanked by the two men who continue to scrutinise the sea of smiling faces. Hands are thrust out, eager to touch me and I shake hands with people, acknowledging these well-wishers, moving along the crowd until I reach you. I halt and look at you and unleash that brilliant smile, my eyes lighting up, just the way they did all that time ago.

“Hello, how good of you to come, so lovely to see you here,” I say.

“I’m here to let the world know what a bastard you are!” you shoot back.

“Hey, there’s no need to be like that,” admonishes a lady to your right.

Before you can speak I put up a hand and reply,

“It’s okay, this is Victoria, we know one another, I made her life hell.”

“See?” you announce, “at last he is admitting what he has done. That is why I hate him.”

“You hate him because he made your life swell?” asks the lady in a confused voice.

“No, he said he made my life hell, he did, he was awful to me. Tell her, tell her what you did,” you insist. I continue to smile and turn to the other woman.

“It is true, I shoved her, I would beat her, I insulted her and caused her harm,” I say.

“At last, at last, finally,” you announce with a joyous look on your face.

“Yes well, I would look happy too if he said that to me, you lucky lady,” continues the lady next to you.

“Sorry?”

“He said ‘I loved her, I would treat her, I insulated her from harm’ he is such a good man. I wish he were mine.”

“No, you are not listening properly, he did not say those things at all,” you protest.

“This man is a monster. He made my life a misery and he still tries to do that. Don’t you?”

“I make your life unbearable,” I confirm.

“See?”

“He said he makes your life unbeatable,” chimes in a man from behind you, “Lady, I don’t know what your problem is but we are here to thank this wonderful man for being part of our lives, you need to take a hike.”

“Yes, clear off, we don’t need troublemakers like you,” adds another voice. One of the black-suited men wrenches the placard from your hands and snaps it over his knees as you feel yourself being pulled and jostled. You are hauled backwards as the crowd surges and closes the gap where you once were stood. You can see me grinning and waving at you, eyes glinting in delight until I have disappeared from view and you fall backwards onto the hard stone of the square, expelled by the crowd. You feel the tears of anger and frustration along with that familiar sensation of despair as you lie on your back breathing heavily.

“Come on, up you come,” says a voice. A hand takes yours and you are pulled to your feet by an old man who is surprisingly strong given his advanced years. He guides you to one of the benches away from the crowd and its raucous support.

He lowers you to the bench as you wipe away the tears.

“Thank you.”

“Quite alright.”

“Why don’t they see him for what he is? I don’t understand.”

“Ahh, such is the problem when you run into a demagogue,” sighs the old man, “I am afraid you did not stand a chance. Do you think this lot just turned up on spec? Not at all. This mob has been recruited and fashioned for months now. He has been sowing his charm all around and you have to admit he is charming; you fell for it yourself didn’t you?”

You nod slowly.

“So is it any wonder all these people did as well. You are sharp, independent and intelligent and you were taken in. Some of these people cannot see further than their own noses.”

“But I saw my friends supporting him, even my brother as well, why would they do that when they know how badly he has been treating me?”

“Oh he is clever alright. Your brother gets business from him so he is not going to pour scorn on that, not with the economy being the way it is. Your friends? Well, they are not really your friends are they? Two of them have designs on him themselves and couldn’t wait for you to be cast aside. The others all think he is wonderful because that is all they have ever seen and when they are fed such a daily diet they tend to end up believing it.”

“But I told them what he did, I showed them the nasty messages.”

“I know, but he got in first. He told them about your temper and your ability to fly off the handle and of course they have all seen that at some point, so it added up for them. He is very persuasive.”

“I know, but how did he get so many people to support him, look at them,” you wave an arm in the direction of the crowd.

“People like success and they want to be associated with it. Many of them don’t like to think for themselves or get embroiled in aggravation, so it is easier just to bleat like a sheep and follow the crowd. He knows this and he has done this many, many times. You did not stand a chance.”

“But it isn’t fair. I mean, he was actually telling this woman in the crowd what he had done and she twisted it so it sounded like he was saying good things about me.”

“Indeed, he is an expert at twisting the truth so you seem like a crazy person and he remains the golden one.”

“I know, I just wish people would listen and see it.”

“They won’t or only a few will. He invests a lot of effort in cultivating his façade of respectability so that it is near impregnable and he uses this to crush you when you think you might be able to expose him for what he is, as you have seen today. You met the façade and it drowned you out, sucked away your supporters and spat you out.”

“Excuse me for asking, but how do you know all this?” you ask curious as to who this helpful stranger is.

“You aren’t the only one who has seen through him you know? I did too and it got me where you are now.”

“You know him?”

“Oh absolutely, not that he has much to do with me, save when it suits him to turn the mob against me when all I have tried to do is help. Talking of which, we need to leave, he will be going inside soon and then his supporters will be looking to exercise the power of the mob and we don’t want to be still sitting here when that happens.”

“Can’t we challenge them, persuade them, show them what he is like. Now there are two of us, they might listen?”

“They don’t want to know. It is easier for them that way. That is why they cannot see it. The result of a blindness and unwillingness created by his manipulations and their innate failings. Come on, it is time to go.”

And go you should.

212 thoughts on “Why Can’t They See it Too? The Narcissist´s Facade At Work

  1. Asp Emp says:

    “We are called to be architects of the future, not its victims.” Buckminster Fuller

  2. Liza says:

    In the past 3 days, a group of french YouTubers who make videos about science testified against a colleague and explained how he abused them and used their love for him to make them hate and sabotage each other ext… (i should specify that the accusers are girls and the accused person is a man). From how they described his behavior towards them (if they are telling the truth) it looks a lot like the behavior of a narcissist who is smearing his ex IPPS to his IPSSs and how he is making all those IPSSs believe that they are the suitable one and thus making them hate the ex. Anyway, what bothers me is that they first started to describe accurately the manipulations he used and i thought it was going in the right direction and that they are going to raise awareness about narcissism, but unfortunatelly, they turned it into a men vs women war. So now to defend them, one has to accept that the problem here is the fact that this person is a man and only men behave that way. In the end, instead of discussing the real problem, there are endless threads on twitter and youtube videos in which men are accused of being monsters and women of being layers or naive.

    It is really sad because it would have been a good occasion to discuss a real issue and make it broadly known since the journal in which the initial article was published is a well respected french journal named Mediapart and the Youtuber in question Dirtybiology has a great number of followers and participated in a lot of educative programs on tv. I’m not french but most of what i read and watch is made in France and i couldn’t help but notice that a lot of times they describe behaviors of narcissists but they almost never use the right term even if a doctor, a social worker or a journalist is present.

  3. Asp Emp says:

    RE: HG’s video on YT ‘Amber Heard : The Narcissist’s Own Goal’.

    Minutes 12:40 to 13:22 “this is why when the narcissist tells a lie that they believe to be their truth they end up often tying themselves in knots particularly the mid-rangers because they just will not shut up they keep talking coming out with more and more convoluted explanations and then where an experienced advocate or even somebody reasonably savvy who is dealing with them points out the
    inconsistency their narcissism doesn’t go oh yes you’re right sorry it then attempts to tell another lie in order to assert control to nullify the threat posed to control by what they’d done just moments before and so it goes on resulting in word salad circular conversations but moreover demonstrating the hypocrisy the contrarian behaviours and the downright inconsistent behaviour of the narcissist”

  4. Asp Emp says:

    RE: ‘The Naughty Autie in Conversation with HG Tudor’ (released on HG’s YT channel yesterday).

    Minutes 50:35 to 53:24 HG says “human beings make mistakes a narcissist particularly mid-range will offer an apology I’m so so sorry for what I’ve done but then they go and do it again an hour later two days later a week later and they apologize again and then they go and do something the same thing or something similar again that is false contrition because if they were genuinely sorry they would correct their actions because their emotional empathy would guide them to do it but because they don’t have any they keep asserting control in a manner which causes people to um suffer so somebody so let’s take for example a man who’s away from home he’s feeling lonely he drinks a bit too much those are external stresses on his emotional empathy he’s an empath or a normal he reduces his emotional empathy and he has the misfortune to bump into a female narcissist she lures him in they have some of the hanky-panky and he knocks her hip out and then the next morning wakes up sober thinks oh my god what did I do goes home and he’s so overburdened by guilt because of his empathy he confesses to his wife shouting screaming recriminations tears but he doesn’t do it again and she realizes that he’s a decent individual because he’s never cheated before and he explains why it happened he says I’m not making excuses I’m just explaining and then he governs his behaviour thereafter to not to do it again there’s the contrition by modifying his behaviour because he’s not perfect he’s a human being that’s subject to all the vagaries and pressures of life in the same way somebody goes out and drinks 20 pints comes in takes a dump on the living room floor smashes up the television and then decides to wave his tackle around singing Sweet Caroline only to find that his in-laws are trying to enjoy a quiet dinner party the next day sobered up he’s in the doghouse he then doesn’t go out and drink 20 pints he modifies his behaviour because of his emotional empathy the narcissist will wake up the next day in order to assert control over the irate mother and mother-in-law and father-in-law we’ll go I’m really sorry I had too much to drink it won’t happen again I’m really sorry I don’t know what came over me and then maybe the next Saturday or the Saturday after that he goes out and has a skin full again and comes back and does something similarly ridiculous why because he does what he wants driven by his sense of entitlement his absence of emotional empathy”

    This is very interesting. Now, since a narcissist is a narcissist, there would be “false contrition”. An empath would not repeat such a behaviour.

    BUT.

    What about those who have PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance)?

    Or, even mythomania (an abnormal or pathological tendency to exaggerate or tell lies – Oxford Languages)?

  5. Asp Emp says:

    TS,

    https://narcsite.com/2022/02/02/why-cant-they-see-it-too-the-narcissists-facade-at-work-9/#comment-426487

    Thank you for your words in your response to me. Especially in relation to my ‘entitlement’ to my anger and why I held it for so long before I was able to let it go. I can see that you do now understand me better.

    In us learning to understand what LOCE, ET and LT is within ourselves and perceptions of how others view it in us and themselves is such a valuable piece of life education that is available on this blog.

    The beauty of this blog too? You can teach your children to understand what ET, LT and LOCE is. No need to mention narcissism at all. You can use ‘ET, LT and LOCE’ when communicating with your children after they have learned what these acronyms to mean. So, if out and about in public, “(child’s name), ET” is enough to indicate. It’s a ‘code-word’ in itself, which would prompt a turnaround in the present LOCE and aid them to learn to manage their ET / LT as they progress into adults. This is a golden opportunity you have that many parents did not necessarily have in the history of humanity.

    Yes, ET management is a real thing 🙂

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Asp, I’m so sorry, I’m losing comments left and right. I have been onto my WordPress account and deleted some old threads and things seem to have improved notification wise over the last couple of days.

      Thank you for posting these comments, I followed you here from the Andrew thread and I have yours and LET’s comments there that I also missed. Give me a nudge if I look like I’m not answering haha! I just won’t have seen them! Aargh !

      I love the idea of introducing the acronyms and what they mean into discussions with my kids, I think that’s a great suggestion.

      I’m lucky that both confide fully so we have some pretty deep conversations! My daughter is very switched on. I had a blast from the past the other day. My ex best friend had sent a FB Messenger request, asking to meet up. We haven’t spoken for about two years. My daughter commented that she thought that was strange, to message out of the blue like that after such a long time. So her antennae is up ! We talked about ghosting and zombieing, what it can mean etc, and we discussed our thoughts on what I should do about the message. Interestingly, she told me to ignore it.

      My son is more trusting of people, out of the two of them he is more vulnerable. Both show very strong signs of being empaths but are a little young yet to know for sure. Having discussions with them about online safety, dating, privacy, relationships etc are pretty normal for us so broadening the subjects to include these terms I think is a useful and gentle introduction to the wider subject, particularly my son.

      I agree with you, the blog is really useful in so many ways. To be able to provide my kids with accurate information ahead of time which increases awareness and encourages them to question, to think and to protect themselves, is hugely valuable. HG has some little uns flying under his wing

      Smiling at your comment about me understanding you better. 😘

      Heading back to the paper trail of lost comments! Thank you for the suggestion Asp and for thinking about the two people most precious to me.

      Xx

      1. Asp Emp says:

        TS, no worries 🙂 Sometimes I remove the bookmarks off my home screen and re-install them (sometimes clearing the cookies cache history helps, and restart PC after such ‘cleaning’).

        It is really good that you have an open communication with your kids. They certainly will become aware through learning from you directly. Yes, your kids may be a little young to know for sure RE: empath status. Still, nothing wrong with providing them with the knowledge (about behaviours of people, not necessarily specifically about narcissism) that they can share with their friends, or ‘show’ up some teachers 😉

        Your daughter is ‘switched’ on RE: ignore after 2 years. Interesting. Then again, I had a friend that went quiet on FB / social media for 3 / 4 years cos of her own messy marriage with ex-police and re-established contact 6 months before I joined KTN (she and I talked narcissism, muchly!).

        You’re welcome, TS. Thank you for discussing 🙂 Really good 🙂

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hey Asp,

        Thank you for the tips, sadly I’m on iPad but, deleting the old threads has improved the notifications somewhat.

        It was a strange tale with my friend. Maid of Honour at my wedding, godmother to both my kids, had known each other for years. We had taken trips to see each other whilst I was in the US. She suffered with depression and I supported her throughout. Long phone conversations, I made myself fully available whenever she needed to talk, even at odd hours. When we moved to SC my personal situation took a turn for the worse. I was battling my own mood dips but didn’t discuss that. I was still fully available for her. I was withdrawing into myself further and further and ordinarily I would have invited her to stay, but, I didn’t want anyone staying in my home environment at that time, I couldn’t have hidden what I wanted to hide and so no invite to stay. I called her less but still made myself available when she called me.

        I made the move back to the uk, my home environment was still not conducive to having someone stay, it was actually getting worse and remained so for some time. (I can’t give detail. This time period is not something I ever discuss.) Out of the blue, she sent a Facebook quote, something about good friends do this bad friends do that, she posted it mysteriously to her timeline also and she blocked me.

        I don’t respond to that kind of behaviour. Perhaps it was supposed to get me to call or email, perhaps I should have, but I didn’t. She had sent the message and blocked without any discussion, there was no discussion with me that perhaps she felt ignored etc etc. just the snarky Facebook quote and block that came out of the blue. (I had actually said whilst still in the US that things were not going well, I just didn’t give detail. I didn’t want to talk about it. I didn’t talk about it with anyone.) That was that. Until this latest message two years on, asking to meet for coffee and telling me how she often wondered about my kids. Might be a bit longer than two years come to think of it.

        I can see it from her side, I wasn’t calling as often, no invite to stay, but to not discuss it, not tell me if she was feeling overlooked perhaps or undervalued, shocked me. Just a message and a block. Nothing until the request to meet for coffee a few days ago.

        As I was blocked, the message is via friend request. I don’t post on Facebook and she won’t know I’ve read the message until I accept the friend request, or not. The strange thing is, I don’t miss her. The friendship was very one sided. It was me supporting her and little in return. That said, and in her defence, I don’t confide, so I am difficult to support.

        I feel like I ought to respond, I’m not angry. What I honestly feel, is nothing.

        Xx

        1. Asp Emp says:

          TS, thank you for sharing more insight RE: the ‘supposed’ friend. I understand. I, too, had a number of ‘fake’ friends where you give a lot of support to but not get much back. Interesting RE: the FB quote thing then blocking you. There are seemingly a number of red flags in the behaviours. What irks me more than anything, is fake people and I have far less tolerance for them than I do for narcissists. I think you acted accordingly and not feeling anything for that “friend” says a lot. Interesting how much you understand more about people when you learn how to read them better 🙂 I am glad to read that you are ok about it 🙂 x

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp Emp,

            Thank you for your message. Yeah, it’s a strange tale. I think I’m more blind when it comes to friends than I am with romantic partners. I think that’s to do with expectation. I know I’m a loyal partner and I expect the same in return, whereas friends, I’m not sure what my expectations should be. I’m more prone to making excuses for a friend than a partner. The fact I don’t feel anything in this case is probably a good steer. I ought to feel something. I think I was just so shocked she would do that, that I just turned cold.

            Good to hear your objective view Asp, it helps. Xx I know what you mean too, fake people do disappoint me more than narcissists. Again, I think that’s to do with my expectations. I read a comment on here recently where the commenter stated it’s best to have no expectations at the start of a relationship. I see the logic there. It’s a very open and free approach which I admire. I’m not sure I have that in me though. I’m not sure I’m that laid back.

            I had a favourite book as a kid. The Water Babies by Charles Kingsley. My dad brought it home for me when he had been working away one time. There’s a character in it called Mrs Doasyouwouldbedoneby. I think that book influenced the way I view people, I also think that it probably has a lot to answer for!

          2. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. When it comes to friends, I would suggest that when loyalty should be given in return – if that is not forthcoming then I’d (especially since KTN learning) suggest that I would question whether that person is a friend.

            RE: “I’m not sure I’m that laid back” – I understand that, totally. I think it is a combination on my part – my experiences as a whole and also Aspergers mindset “No effort given = not worth the effort”. Maybe it is the scales of Justice? I am too giving, too nice, too generous at times.

            What I am thankful for, is the ‘additional’ confidence in myself to be able to view my ‘reasons’ for being ‘me’ towards people and situations. The Will Smith series that HG has done has given me more pause for thought = the additional confidence in myself. It saddens me at the same time (not necessarily just ET based), it can be likened to not being ‘accepted’ for what I am and why I am the way I am. I’ve talked more about this in my comment in ‘Fury’.

            I’d rather have a handful of genuine, loyal friends than hundreds of ‘hanger-ons’ and fakes.

            Thank you for conversing on this, I appreciate it 🙂

            PS, thank you for your response on ‘Prince Andrew : It Won’t Go Away’ thread. It is interesting to be able to see where the train of thought and the train of feeling can differ, thought = stays on track, feelings = can get stopped in tracks ie a fookin tree lying across it, or train slows down due to leaves on the track. But the feelings do not necessarily get derailed. Thanks again 🙂

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            This is a really lovely comment, thank you xx.

            The feeling of wanting to be understood, not even having people agree necessarily, but at least to recognise where your thoughts come from, the meaning behind them, I think links closely to the ability to confide.

            There is an element of resentment too. “I can listen, I can find where you are and haul you upwards, why can’t you do that for me? Why can’t you sense it?” For you there is also the Asperger’s that likely further complicates your being / feeling understood. It’s part of being an empath though too I think. We are operating on a different frequency and until I landed here, I didn’t realise that that was the case.

            “No effort given = not worth the effort.” Is that an Aspie mindset? Haha, yes, I like that. I think that’s where my frustration comes from too. It often feels like people don’t make the effort or take the time to truly understand others. I’m starting to question though if it’s more to do with being incapable of listening closely enough to understand. Something such as taking the time to truly listen seems simple enough, but it might also be linked to the higher level of emotional empathy experienced by the empath. It might actually be a skill set that empaths have and see as ‘normal’ when in reality non empaths just don’t have that particular skill. A combination of lack of ability leading to lack of effort. Social media doesn’t help people there either. Fast information, impersonal communication, surface level connection.

            It’s lovely to see your growing self acceptance and the additional value you now place on yourself because of it. I agree, listening to HG’s analysis of Will Smith was very eye opening. He has been over compensating and criticising himself repeatedly for that single failure to protect his mother. I can’t see that changing whilst he remains ensnared. HG’s work does teach self acceptance, I think it just takes time for that lesson to sink in and it must be particularly difficult for ACONS. They have a lifetime of programming by the narcissist to unpick.

            “The scales of justice” I see this as a positive thing and it points to reinforcing stronger boundaries. If something feels unfair then that’s a warning signal. That might just answer my friend question too. Her behaviour felt very unfair.

            I haven’t seen your comment on ‘Fury’ I’ll read it now. Laughing at your train analogy. I added to the Andrew thread late last night, I kept my thoughts on track, just, I think, haha!

            I’m enjoying the conversation too Asp. Thank you for listening and working through things with me. 😘

            Xx

          4. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. Where you suggest “I’m starting to question though if it’s more to do with being incapable of listening closely enough to understand” – granted, there are some people who do not have the mental capacity to understand. There are others who are being selfish. Sometimes, emotional empathy does not come in to it.

            Yes, I have noticed that Will seems to be ‘stuck’ in one place (mother being hit by father) – that obviously had a tremendously traumatic affect on him. I think Will realised at that moment (more instinctively – the Contagion – rather than consciously) that his mother could have died. It has ‘plagued’ him since. Similarly, my the loss of my father = similar ‘affects’. That is, in my view, the ‘root’ of all the pain – the layers of the narcissistic abuse need to be ‘removed’ first (understanding narcissism, why the addiction, understanding aspects of oneself). That is how I did my “journey” – the most recent abuse and working ‘backwards’ from that. Like ‘retracing’ the steps backwards into the past, despite how painful it is. It was my only way forward for myself personally.

            I decided not to post my comment on ‘Fury’. Basically, it started (and ended) with the words “Justice because of injustice”. I think you ‘summed’ it up “Her behaviour felt very unfair”.

            There is a difference in people responding because they are not getting their way (expectations = selfishness), to people standing up for themselves (defense = justice). I suppose it can be likened to the ‘golden child’ (ie my sister) and the ‘scapegoat child’ (ie me) differences – I was never both.

            This ‘train’ (me) cannot be ‘derailed’. People can try. It is not gonna work. If they wave a red cloth in my face, I’ll respond, accordingly (whether it is ‘Silent Treatment’, or ‘Discard’, or ‘Disengagement’, or ‘Tirade’, never mind ‘Provocation’). If people support me on my train journey, help push the ‘train’, the actions speaks for themselves and, again, I will ‘respond’ accordingly. It’s black, or white.

            I do listen to people. I support them too. But when a ‘friend’ turns ‘foe’, that’s it. I think you understand my way of thinking, like I understand yours. Thank you, for conversing on this, TS x

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            Thank you for explaining more of your journey to me x.

            Starting in the present and working slowly backwards through each relationship. I can see the thinking there, clever. The other way round and things would likely be missed as not significant enough, the larger events would suck in all the focus.

            I imagine that uncovering the sheer number of narcissists in your life must have shocked then enraged you. Like a pack of hyenas, circling, each taking a little piece, arseholes.

            The loss of your dad was pivotal I think, not just because he was your dad, but he was also the much needed protector and guide. He’s the one who most likely gave you your empathy. If you had the predisposition to narcissism, he was the intervener, your grandma too. Next time you cry at a movie, or lean down to talk to and fuss over a dog, just think “That’s my dad in me.” 😊

            There is a difference in people responding because they are not getting their way (expectations = selfishness), to people standing up for themselves (defense = justice).”

            Absolutely. I think we do actually recognise which of the two the response is, we just don’t like to accept it, we don’t like to think that we didn’t pick up on that right at the very start. A lot of that was lack of awareness though, now we are very aware and our odds get better all the time.

            Friend to foe. Yes, I know how to deal with a foe, once I recognise them that is haha! I chucked my rose coloured specs in the bin shortly after I arrived here. Decided they didn’t do me any favours.

            I am confident your train will stay firmly on the tracks. Just watch out for the Fat Controller, I never trusted him, something about the eyes 😉

            Thank you too Asp Emp, I enjoy our conversations too.

            Xx

          6. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. The working ‘backwards’ mindset is something I consciously use in a systematic way ie procedures. I did not consciously plan to apply this same method to my journey here, it just happened. It worked though. Yes, the larger events tend to be the ‘abyss’ – it can be likened to the black hole that HG describes in one of his recent videos on Will Smith.

            The uncovering of the number of narcissists did not enrage me. It was only the ones that had the most impact ie longer term, that did piss me off. And to think maternal parental narcissist ‘vacuumed’ me into her black hole as soon as I was put into her arms at birth.

            My dad was the golden child, protected by his mother. You may be right about my dad & my inheriting his empathy but I recognise the strength of my empath from grandmother’s DNA. I certainly inherited my father’s ‘attitood’ characteristics, I love him for that 🙂

            Totally agree with you RE: the odds get better all the time. That’s why I say that I see with more clarity 😉

            Laughing at your throwing away the rose-coloured specs 😉 We were ‘told’, weren’t we? 😉 I stomped on mine 😉

            Laughing….. about the Fat Controller !!! You reminded me of the scene in ‘The Handmaid’s Tale’ where the train smacked into the two running across the tracks (I am laughing as I type this but at the time it still took me by surprise, like ‘fk!’). Hmmm, now there’s thought fuel 😉

            You mentioned art in your comment on the Prince Andrew thread. I was reminded of a time when I had my close friends to stay (years ago), I’d been picking up my dog’s waste deposits and it had rained the day before. Using the plastic scooper, I’d flung it onto the wall that them f*cken neighbours built and, hey, a work of art! The sh*t had stuck to the wall into the shape of a handgun. My friend took a photo of my other friend’s hand shadow as if to have the ‘pistol’ in her hand. It was comical. We all laughed for ages at that ‘art’. It was sh*t!

            When you’re in London again, go to Liberty’s, you’d like it. You daughter would too 🙂 It’s good to talk, thank you 🙂 x

          7. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Lovelies,
            I totally get you all and it very much saddens me how friendships are sometimes very one sided and they usually end over something quite trivial
            I have just had this happen to our little group 😔
            We all became friends at work (one was already my friend prior, now 30 years) the other two I’ve known for 15 years
            One had some recent nitpicking issues with the other, total misunderstanding, however, will not see reason or take into consideration anything else going on in the ‘cursed’ one’s life and has opted out of group as a whole but wishes to remain friends with my long term friend and moi.

            The two said females in question are alpha type females. Lou, up front and in your face with little discretion and both process strong narcissistic traits. They both think they are right and blame each other.
            Us remaining two are the empaths, negotiators and peacemakers and always looking for common ground. Friendships can be such delicate things and always, always expect the unexpected as you mentioned Truth.

            I’m saddened when anyone goes this as it is indeed very painful to lose what you thought was a true friend. Reciprocation is the key to any relationship.

            I can now relate it to Sex in the City, it just won’t be the same without Samantha.
            Hugs to you all 🤗
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          8. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, thank you for sharing your experience on so-called “friendships”. I agree, “something quite trivial”. It is usually a moot-point 😉

            Reading your experience here reminds me of such a ‘friend’ from school times. It is interesting to now realise why she was, more often than not, ‘stone-walling’ on a certain point. It makes sense now and in future, I know what to do (LOL). Ah, such is the power of wisdom 🙂 I wonder if my other friend can ‘sense’ it too. Whether she and I would have a discussion about it, is another matter. It may never be “discussed”. Upsetting the apple-cart sometimes is not a positive way to deal with something “trivial”. It can be handled in a constructive way ( The HG Tudor Way :-)).

            Thank you for the mention of ‘Sex and The City’. I know exactly what you mean RE: Samantha. It is suggested that as one grows older, they tend to have fewer but strong and close friendships – I suppose it is inevitably experience-based, knowledge gained from life-skills and the learning about life that never stops. That is one massive bonus we can take from HG’s work, additional knowledge that we would not have otherwise had the fortune to gain from unfortunate ‘paths’ of life.

            Bless you, Bubbles. Lovely to ‘hear’ from you and to read what you say here. Hope all is well with you, much love xx

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Bubbles,

            I’m really sorry to hear that your group split up. You would think as we all get older that there would be less drama! Friendships are delicate, you’re right. Things are often more complicated as people move around with jobs. Kids take up so much time and energy that time passes sometimes and we don’t realise how long it has been since we last saw someone we cared about. In some ways chat apps can offset this but in others they remove the urgency of face to face get togethers. Your situation was slightly different, two people being stubborn. I understand stubborn haha! Don’t think I’m an Alpha though! I can imagine you negotiating a peace deal haha! Give it time, they sound like the type to entrench. Maybe leave it a while and circle back to it in a few months 🙂

            I was thinking today about my friend at my wedding. She was my Maid of Honour. She was the best Maid of Honour I could have asked for. There are several photos of me walking out of church and later by the car, just in the background, you can sometimes see my friend, bent down, straightening the train on my dress ( it was a very long train). A narc wouldn’t do that would they? It’s unlikely they would stay in the background, fussing that my dress was lying just so.

            We went shopping for her dress. I asked her to choose exactly the dress she wanted, I even asked her which colour she would be happiest wearing before choosing my colour scheme. Getting her to decide was a nightmare. She was trying to estimate which dress I preferred her to wear so she could choose that one! I had to try to keep my expression the same after each dress so she would choose the one she liked. None of that says narc to me. It was only much later that things became more one sided.

            I don’t know, it’s playing on my mind. I always do this, deliberate for ages before jumping one way or the other. Once I jump though, I’m done, I don’t go back on the decision. Maybe I just have a little more thinking to do. Maybe I do meet her and try to get a better read on it. Urrrgh, make a bloody decision TS!

            Xx

          10. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            Thank you for your response lovely one. She has definitely been stone-walling us, as with your friend. I left the d off of Lou in my comment, they are both very loud. Haha
            I really have so much on my plate with my mum, Mr Bubbles and visiting our dear ol friend, I really don’t need this additional petty nonsense.
            She makes her presence known wherever she goes. Always wins fashion day at the races or wherever because of her quirkiness. The main reason has been over gifts she has taken offence to and then other things just happened to came into play.
            We think she’s a bit ‘cooked’ as she’s on medication marijuana and some of her behaviour has been somewhat erratic of late. The ‘cursed’ one is the youngest in the group and has some rather dominant, straight forward opinionated thinking and can be quite dictatorial and forceful, hence it’s upset ‘Samantha’ gravely recently.
            I have not responded to ‘Samantha’s’ text just yet as I’m contemplating my naval. My other empath friend wants to ‘fix’’ all the things she’s been complaining of, just to make her happy and heal the rift. It’s a big ‘no’ from me as it supports her righteous entitled attitude and means she wins, considering all the things she’s done and hasn’t acknowledged. ‘Samantha’ can be very vocal as well, when it suits her.
            “I hate hate hate, double hate, loathe entirely, this whole scenario”. (Grinch quote) Haha

            Wisdom and ageing certainly dwindles the number of friends in your life.
            Mr Tudor has certainly added valuable chaff to chew on hehe
            My mum doesn’t have many friends left (well, acquaintances really) they’ve all died. Haha
            Always lovely to chat Asp Emp, sounds like you’re in a really good place ☺️
            Double luv back at ya, luv luv Bubbles xx 😘

          11. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, thank you for your response. I am sorry to hear about ‘awkward unavoidables’ (petty nonsense – I like that 🙂 ). Laughing at her being offended at the gifts (cheeky cow!). Of course, the longer-term and heavy-use effects of that particular “medication” can make people a bit doolally. I can really understand and sympathise with you on the whole situation that you find yourself in between these women (sometimes they are the worst!!!). I am glad to read that you are not ‘permitting’ them to control you, good lass 🙂 I agree RE: the wisdom and age in regard to a smaller ‘circle’ of friends (I am reminded of Gaylord Focker films here and THAT cat! LOL). Bless you, continue with your own “stone-walling” 😉 stay strong Bubbles, love to you xx

          12. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truth,
            You are one really good friend sweetness. I’m surprised you gave her license to choose the colour she wanted to wear at ‘your’ wedding before ‘you’ chose your colour scheme. That was extremely unselfish, kind and very thoughtful of you Truth. I have not personally known or heard of any brides who would do that.

            As long as someone serves a purpose, you’re in, the moment it doesn’t go their way, that’s when the challenges and loyalties begins to rear it’s ugly head.
            The weasel would go out of his way to be ‘nice’ and appear thoughtful by adding little extra touches. It was all part of his facade, he would’ve straightened your long train perfectly haha. Yes, Truth I believe a narc would do anything and stayed in the background if warranted at the time.

            If your Maid of Honour was a true friend, she would’ve sensed your despair and understood your predicament and been there for you, as you were when she needed you.

            It’s been over two years, she blocked you, sent a cryptic Facebook message, you don’t miss her, using your kids as an excuse, she’s one sided, gives little in return…… hmmm I sorry to point out, I think you’ve answered your own question Truth.

            You’re such a lovely person Truth, you’d meet up as a sign of respect, kindness and out of the goodness of your heart.
            Whatever the outcome lovely, we still luvs ya 💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Dear Bubbles,

            Thank you for this. Reading your interpretation of my friend’s behaviour made things far clearer. The benefit of the doubt. It’s a killer isn’t it? We place our reasoning on their behaviour and all of a sudden things get very unclear.

            Your comment really touched me, thank you Bubbles😘.

            You caught it, it’s respect. I feel like I should meet her out of respect for the friendship I once thought we had. That’s what is making me think back and replay, that sense of owing, kind of. Funnily enough, respect and owing held me in place with the online narc too. I have a blind spot it seems. The same response, two different scenarios.

            Thank you for thinking about it Bubbles, for pondering my reaction and for clarifying her behaviour. I think you are exactly right. Now I do have my answer.

            Xx

          14. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            The Fockers are a hoot. Haha
            Tit for tat belongs in the schoolyard not at my age, good grief
            ‘Samantha’ is also a hoarder, so our gifts come from her huge stockpile.
            We have all received chipped broken cheap old and out of date from her and she justifies it by saying but it’s Made in England haha

            She lives in a posh suburb drives a posh car and has a professional husband who supports her every whim n fancy. They are very well off. When she op shops she drives the ordinary car and looks like the bag lady.
            ‘Cooked’ is an understatement, however I love her dearly, we will wait and see what happens whilst I continue to ‘stone-wall’ 😂
            Thank you gorgeous
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          15. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, talk about leading a double-life, eh? It is so good to read your comment first thing and drink my coffee…..”huge stockpile”…..poor woman, having issues and not realising what she is trying to ‘replace’ (or ‘escape’ from). I have seen hoarder related tv programmes. It is rather sad in some way. I still think ‘WTF’ though. Thank you for giving me a giggle, Bubbles 🙂 xx

          16. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Your artistic creation cracked me up. The thought of you and your friend stood in front of it with your heads tilted to one side saying, “Is it just me, or does that look like a gun?” Haha. Perhaps we should start calling you Banksy!

            Interesting you think your empath gene was passed down through your grandmother. I remember you mentioning this before. I have been thinking about my grandma too of late, my dad’s mum. She had a dry wit, smart mouth, held on to her cough drops right until the end and was stubborn as a mule. Incredibly understanding and protective of me. I’m thinking similarly to you. It’s my dad’s side rather than my mum’s that carries the empath gene, if there is such a thing.

            So your dad had a good helping of spirit then huh? Haha, that works too. Nothing wrong with being spirited 😉

            Xx

          17. Asp Emp says:

            TS, my friends were watching me (LOL). We were preparing for a barbeque, that was another “reason” why Sasquatch from next door had to look over the wall !!!

            It was my maternal grandmother, hence why I could not understand why her daughter (narcissist) was like the “opposite”. My father was the spirited dry wit guy. Both sides of the family – different empath(y) ‘traits’.

            Sounds like you made a decision RE: the friend. Good to read. You will know either way when you have met up with her whether to continue or not, now that you have gained some understanding (learning) about people (looking at things differently). You will also get some peace of mind too. Hope it goes well for you 🙂

          18. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Ahhh, I see now. Maternal grandmother rather than paternal. I’ve missed or forgotten that somewhere along the way. I see now, yes, that must have made your mum’s behaviour appear even more out of sync.

            Empaths and narcs running through family lines, drawing each other in, it’s such an interesting but destructive dynamic. At least we now understand why it happens.

            Xx

          19. Asp Emp says:

            TS, yes RE: muvver’s behaviour, I wanted to understand how she was ‘created’ because her mother & sisters were lovely people. Maybe it was her father but I never saw the ‘other’ side of him, if it were present. That’s science / mathematics for you 🙂

          20. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            She has huge issues from her childhood and now health problems, it all makes sense, sadly she has never received any help for her addictions. She’s too old to start changing now.
            I had this woman grab the same trolley as me in the supermarket the other day, then proceeded to tell me her whole life story in 10 mins …..wants to have a coffee with me, she’s obviously very lonely, so sad.
            I seem to attract all the crazies 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          21. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, thank you for sharing more on this friend. I understand and somewhat agree that for some people the ‘help’ that may have assisted comes too late in life. My aunt is too elderly for me to have discussions with her about muvver and so on so I just told her I’d been reading up on stuff for my ‘self-therapy’ and there is other stuff that I have tot talked to her about. I do not wish to, nor feel the need to be “understood” further if you can understand?

            You are a lovely woman, Bubbles. Of course people are ‘drawn’ to you (including the ones that may be off their trolley ;-)) 🙂

          22. Bubbles says:

            Dearest AspEmp,
            I totally understand lovely about it being too late for some and it’s truly regrettable with your dear aunt.
            Sadly, my friend’s son no longer has contact with her because he thought she went completely nuts years ago
            Her daughter married a narcissist, they’re now divorced (he only ever wanted her money) now he’s off doing the same with another new victim. I don’t think my girl friend can handle any more pressure and I feel she’s hit a peak.

            Speaking of trolleys, I’m a half trolley who attracts the full trolleys 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          23. Asp Emp says:

            Hello Bubbles, your poor friend. I know what you mean when you say “hit a peak”, sad. Half a trolley?! 😉 You made me laugh. I’ll be mindful and keep an eye out for the “full trolley” when I next go shopping – I hadn’t realised it was based on the size of the trolley 😉 x

          24. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Yes, I can see your thinking there. I’ve recently started pondering similarly about my own mother. There are numerous indicators there, repeated throughout my childhood. Behaviours, things I witnessed between her and my dad etc. the desire to see me do well, more so she could tell people rather than wanting me to do what made me happy. Lots and lots of pity plays. Nothing was quite good enough for her. My dad worked himself into the ground but there were still comments about ‘ our little house’ how much they have for retirement so now it’s “our little holidays, not as nice a hotel as you would stay in” There was triangulation, the fact my dad worked away and “I could have gone to college, or had this job, but I had you, and your dad worked away so I never got to do those things.” Very self centred on the face of it. I also suspect she had an affair but can’t prove it. On the NDC she might well read as an MMRB. Ironic, the online narc was also MMRB and we do tend to gravitate to what we know.

            The thing that makes me think the most that she might be an MMRB is my own behaviour. Mentally I cut off from her at around the age of 12. I remember the very day I took the decision. I remember the conversation. I only remember my age because my dad and I were in the car talking, driving away from our old house. I remember thinking, “That’s it, I’ll tolerate her, I’ll play the game, but I’ll never tell her anything again, just enough to keep her satisfied that she knows what’s going on, just enough and no more.” I think that’s quite extreme for a 12 year old. It’s not extreme for me as an adult, I have behaved similarly when in process of ending past relationships, but not with a family member, and not at age 12.

            On the other hand, she has been there for me. I can’t say I was subjected to regular verbal or physical abuse. I still maintain that she worries about my dad, more so now than ever. That could be fear of being left alone though, it might still be a selfish worry. If I need her, then my belief is she’s there. I just refuse to need her, so how could I know? She appears to love my kids, difficult to judge, I lived abroad when my kids were younger, they missed out on the babysitting and associated bonding. I still would say highly narcissistic for my mum, not narcissist. A narcissistic normal would display many of the same behaviours as a narcissist. Difficult for me to prove or disprove genuine emotional empathy.

            I’m considering the NDC but suspect I’ll show her to be a narcissist and might well overlook the non narcissist behaviours. Don’t know. I have faith in the NDC but for some reason I don’t have faith in it for her. Does it matter one way or the other? It wouldn’t change my behaviour, I closed down years ago. It would reinforce my lineage. Perhaps explain my own formation. Curiosity rather than need then. What do I gain really by knowing? Meh, don’t know, not sure. I’ll listen again to HG mauls the MMRB, that’s her if she is anything. Maybe I’ll click if I listen with her in mind.

            I’ve been here long enough, I should be able to work it out for myself by now!

            Xx

          25. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for sharing more of your experiences with regard to your parents. There was almost a total lack of pity-plays with muvver, it was groundless blameshifting / accusations. Your mother could have very well gone to work / college while you were at school, so she cannot really continue to use that.

            Maybe your father understood you very well when you were 12 and so he says those words to you then. He would also have seen through your mother’s behaviours as he got to ‘understand’ her.

            I have not had any DC done so I do not know whether the TDC would show enough for you to determine where your parent(s) sit on the ‘spectrum’ (referring to HG’s video ‘The Ultra Framework’)? You have obtained EDC, TDC (for yourself) and NDC (for the one you knew) so you know what questions there are. Only you can decide whether to proceed on DC. At least though, you would know and not have any lingering questions in the future, especially in regard to your mother.

            Having said that, something to maybe consider, your parent(s) may need you as they progress into their older years. Your kids would be able to help too. They do not need to know about narcissism, just why some behaviours may be present in any given ‘situation’.

            I hope this helps in some way 🙂

          26. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truth,
            Thank you lovely for your very kind response. It’s only my ‘perception’ Truth (there’s that word again heheh) of how you come across to me. You have very strong values regarding morals and decency. You were extremely hurt and surprised when your friend abandoned you and you thought she would reciprocate in the same way you valued your friendship with her. She didn’t.
            You instil the same values with your children and are extremely protective of everyone you love.

            You respect yourself enough to see your friend because that’s just who you are and that’s pretty amazing.
            Your children have an extremely wonderful role model.
            I wish you all the best with your friend and hope you are able to let us know what transpires.
            Big hugs to you dear Truth 🤗
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          27. Bubbles says:

            Dearest AspEmp,
            Men are so much easier….(except if there narcs)
            I like easy 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          28. Asp Emp says:

            Laughing……yes, I won’t argue with that point 😉 Thank you, Bubbles 🙂 x

          29. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            Thank you for your thoughts. Yes, that’s pretty much where I’m at too.

            If I took the NDC and discovered I was wrong and my mum is a narc then it would explain my own behaviour towards her. There is a bit of guilt associated with that if I think about it too hard. That said, I continue to fulfil my obligations. To all intents and purposes I’m a good daughter. It’s only me who knows and my dad who likely suspects that I’m emotionally removed from her. ENC Emotional No Contact!

            As you rightly point out, my parents aren’t getting any younger. The priority is my dad. If my mother was a narcissist then this poses a problem for the relationship with my dad. It would upset him if I cut off completely from my mum. Too much drama, my dad is a strong man but he has had a triple heart bypass only a couple of years ago. Different thing if she was upsetting me. Demonstrably she isn’t. My emotional defences have held up until now, I see no reason that would change.

            It’s curiosity really, a bit of guilt at not providing the mother daughter relationship she wants. I do wonder if my lack of feelings for her are warranted. if I’m in the wrong and she’s in the right. That said, we can have people in our lives that are toxic or whose personality is a direct clash to ours and I don’t believe that we are obligated to embrace them simply because they aren’t narcissists.

            Narc or no narc then, my approach would remain similar to how it is now.

            I think perhaps on this occasion My Truthseeker trait needs to be content not knowing!

            Xx

          30. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. Interesting to read what you say. It does sound as if you have made your decision RE: DC or no DC with regard to your mother.

            You are right in saying that people can have narcissistic people in their life – absolutely, it is impossible to avoid all narcissists / narcissistic people – ie in work, or using public services ie doctors, hospitals. But, one can change their doctor. One cannot necessarily choose their boss but can choose to work elsewhere. One can choose to shop elsewhere.

            When it comes to family / intimate relationships, that is where we are strongly advised to GOSO.

            However, in your case, it does sound as if you can (and have) managed it for so long.

            One thing that I noted from your words – about the mother / daughter relationship that your mother ‘wants’, and questioning whether your lack of feelings are warranted. In my opinion, there are 2 options – a) continue as you have done, or b) consult with HG and talk about your mother, the relationship you have with her, that way you may not need to go down the route of a DC. He understands enough about people and relationships. As you say, she may not be a narcissist. Thank you for sharing more of your thoughts on this 🙂 xx

          31. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Thank you again for your comment, it really helped. You’re exactly right there are only two choices.

            I think you’re right about me getting a steer on it in consultation. HG doesn’t know her, but he has a good idea about me, he has my detectors, there might be a very straightforward answer as to why I deal with her as I do. That might have far more to do with me than it does her.

            There are a few niggles I have about my own choices of late. Things that I do, that I have no intention of changing, but that I kind of want an explanation for.

            It might be time for my annual HG service!

            Asp? Thank you xx

          32. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. I am glad to have helped you in some way. The thought direction where I was coming from was more to do with having peace within yourself. Maybe you could have a think back to some point in your past where it may have been an ‘event’, or a number of, that led to where you are ‘at’ now RE: mother / relationship. There may not be anything specific – just some points in preparation for your consult? At least, you’d be able to ‘rest’ on this aspect and if any change is needed, you’d be in a position to apply that. Would your parents be ok about having your children for a long weekend while you have some ‘me’ time, or with a friend (ie in the summer school break) – it is just an idea? Ok, I’ll leave that with you and hope you can get some answers for yourself. You are more than welcome, TS x 🙂

          33. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I hope you don’t mind me joining this conversation.

            For a long time I have wondered about your mother, for two reasons.

            One is that you seem to have distanced yourself from her and there is a disconnect.

            Two is the description you gave long ago of your mother’s mother, your maternal grandmother.

            What you have shared here, and elsewhere, in recent days definitely raises the question and up to this point in time you have defended your mother, accepting people can tip the narcissistic scale, but not actually be a narcissist. Certainly an NDC will likely give you the answer, but it could also shatter any illusions which at this moment in time you may not be prepared to have shattered. I’m only saying this because I see you pondering it, and in one sense you are clear that you have already handled the situation to the best of your ability and in a manner that seems to work for everyone. You’re obviously very concerned about your father and establishing a no contact regime with one parent while still attempting to have contact with the other would be difficult, if not nightmarish. More nightmarish would be the notion of cutting off contact with both parent’s. That doesn’t sound like where you are at, or even need to be at, having established firm boundaries from a very early age in relation to your mother regardless of her status.

            It’s interesting to me that so many people assume, and have often experienced, verbal and physical abuse by a narcissistic parent. Going by what else you have said, it certainly sounds like your mother lost control in the past at times and also laid her hands on you in a very threatening way, but narcissism can be insidious in a way where no hand is ever laid and no swear word ever spoken. You said my mother sounded “sly” and that’s a perfect description. The smiling assassin who goes under the wire and is even more despicable in some ways for that. I think it’s important for people to understand not every narcissist is abusive in the same way, and some can be very hidden. To the point we might even question ourselves.

            I shared a video link here a while ago here where two daughters of abusive narcissistic mother’s shared their stories in a conversation. Both well known, one an actress and one an esteemed Professor of Psychology and University lecturer. The beauty of this conversation was both women were just talking from their perspective of being victims and what that looked like for them. The other thing that stood out for me was that both women expressed an enormous amount of respect for their mother’s at an earlier age. I was the same. I thought my mother was the “bees knees” for a long time, and was completely taken in by her facade. Children will normally respect their parent’s to a certain degree naturally, but as much as I was affected by her behaviour, I still saw her as someone to be admired.

            This, I think, is part of the dissonance a narcissistic parent can engender in their child/children. The narcissist commands respect, even while they are abusing you. It’s hard to explain, but it happened to me. Partly because I didn’t know what I was dealing with and partly because I wanted or needed to be convinced that my mother was who I thought she was – someone who loved me and wanted to meet my needs.

            My mother hated her mother, and it’s a guarantee her mother was a narcissist, too. It’s not hard to see where the genetic disposition came from and how her environment also helped to fashion her. Having said that, it doesn’t mean I have to accept her treatment of me because I understand. You may have found a ‘sweet spot’ with your mother that keeps you at arms length while also being able to accommodate your father and his needs. Being an only child will create an imperative for you that I know I don’t have to consider, and you must do what’s best for you.

            I think you have a strong sense of who you are, TS, and the boundaries that go with that. You’re ensnarement with the narcissist/s indicates you have a vulnerability in that area which might be due to your parental past or heritage. The could be on the empathic side – your father’s – or the more narcissistic side – your mother’s. Sounds like you’ve had exposure to both and thankfully you are in the right place to get a handle on how to handle that <3 xox

          34. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you for your contribution to this conversation. I like what you say here 🙂 x

          35. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks, AspEmp 🙂 x

          36. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey LET,

            Of course you can add your thoughts, You have a strong sense of what makes me tick and here is no exception.

            You have hit on what I’ve been thinking about. What constitutes abuse? Times have changed, smacking was once acceptable for example, now it’s seen as abuse.

            I think I read the stories of others on the blog and think I don’t fit. I see those accounts as clear accounts of abuse, I don’t see my own experience in the same light.

            I have heard it stated that abuse is only an issue if it is damaging. Essentially, do I FEEL abused? If no then my situation is acceptable. Personally I think the concept is flawed but I do see the point the commenter was making. What is acceptable for one is not for another. My boundaries are different to your boundaries and so on.

            Abuse can take many forms as you state. Even more confusing if the abuse varies between family members as in your example. That’s when the parental narcissist is particularly insidious I think. Playing one child off against the other is just vile.

            The fact is I don’t feel as if my mother was abusive. Your reminder as to different narcs using different manipulations I think is definitely worth me considering further though.

            Yes my mum definitely had LOCE as a kid. Her mother died when she was young and her father was the one she detested. Almost certainly a narc. He farmed my mother and brothers out to relations, split them up and my mum’s story is not a happy one. Given her childhood, it’s possible that she didn’t really know how to be a mum. There was certainly no role model for her. The empaths here made truly caring mothers, despite the childhood LOCE but they are empaths, my mother isn’t.

            I’m definitely playing Devil’s advocate here! It isn’t that I’m concerned about my illusions being shattered. I respect what my mum did for me in terms of opportunities etc, but I didn’t look up to her. I’m very concerned that I give her a fair hearing. I’m also concerned that if she turns out to be a MMRB that my understanding of GOSO would influence my behaviour and impact my dad as a result. He is my priority above all else. You totally get my thinking there.

            That bloody video! Half of me wishes I hadn’t listened to it. I’ve been thinking myself inside out since!

            Thank you for sharing your thoughts LET, you’ve given me more to consider.

            Xx

          37. Asp Emp says:

            TS, having read your mother’s background, I can understand some more of the historical affects on your mother. She obviously did not have the ‘stability’, nor ‘security’ as a child and being split from siblings added to that. Consider this as partly why there may be a “disconnect” between you and her, she has not found a way of looking into her past and “resolving” (her traumas) it if you can understand what I mean? I achieved that, here, on KTN. You suggest that your mother is not an empath. Her emotions may / would have been ‘switched off’ from her childhood? I understand about your relationship with your father and you not wanting anything to impact on that. Maybe you would not need to go as far as GOSO? Consult with HG to aid you in the decision-making that you may be needing? He will advise whether to consider detector consultations, if any. There seems to be a need for something to stop the ‘shifting sands’ effect (in your mind) and offer you some more solid ground to stand upon and build-up on that?

          38. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I appreciate you clarifying around my thought processes and you raise an interesting question – what is abuse? Does it depend on our boundaries, or is it abuse regardless of how we view it? I have also wondered about my own sensitivities, and how different children may be impacted differently by a parent depending on their nature and personality. But, a narcissist is a narcissist is a narcissist. Their behaviours may at times be insidious, but when you come to understand them, it’s a guarantee the behaviour to undermine you as an individual is abusive. These behaviours would come under the headings of things we hear about regularly on this site, such as gaslighting, triangulation, back handed compliments, etc. They are messing with your mind, your sense of self, your self esteem, your sense of self worth. They are harmful and, as HG suggests, we must necessarily distance ourselves from people who manifest these behaviours if we are to not just survive, but thrive.

            Going by what you say, it’s possible your mother did not exhibit any form of gaslighting behaviour, there might be other reasons for your current stance, which in part seems to rest on one very significant occasion. You also recognise she had a difficult life growing up as a child and that might have impacted her negatively in terms of her abilities as a mother. I’m sure it can be very hard to determine at times, which is why we need the expert.

            The other thing is narcissists like my mother will often go under the wire for years because you can’t point to out and out abuse in terms of physical or sexual violence. I’m very glad we have begun to recognise emotional and psychological abuse, as well as the issue of coercive control which would fall under these. Those suffering from these types of abuse are often ‘invisible’ victims and can find it much harder to accept they are victims at all. Something is wrong, but it must be us as the narcissist makes our case almost impossible to prove.

            Mind games, that’s what I’d call it. My mother played mind games with me.

            I can see you trying to give your mother a fair hearing and I may have mixed up your grandparents, but I’m acutely aware of a grandparent you explained was abusive – perhaps it was your father’s mother? Or a grandparent who was abused?

            Forgive me for misinterpreting any of that, and loss of parent’s at an early age affected both my parent’s lives. My mother was also left with her narcissistic parent after her father died, my father suffered with being parceled out to relatives after his father caught his mother in an affair and kicked her out of the house. It’s very sad for them to have been so egregiously abandoned in more ways than one as children.

            You’ve got me curious now as to what video you watched. Some of them do act like a a curve ball and it can be a never ending peeling off of the layers. Only consider what you need to for now, TS <3 xox

          39. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Thank you for your further thoughts here. Before I forget, the video that threw me into a tailspin was ‘An exchange with a parental narcissist.’ I have a very similar story about a conversation that took place over the phone when I was at university. That woman in the video really sounded a lot like my mum. That opened the door of possibility, then I started to travel back into my past and look at her behaviours from a different perspective.

            Your views about what constitutes abuse do echo what is taught here. I can’t disagree, yet I don’t fully agree. I would say that I was damaged but not abused by the online narc. I would say that I was neither damaged nor abused by the relationship with the MMRA. That’s just my personal view of what happened though. I am aware that others have had very different experiences and hold very different views.

            No need to apologise xx. The family history as regards grandfathers isn’t great. Both grandfathers were highly suspect. My paternal grandfather died before I was born. I was very close to my paternal grandmother. My dad would refer to my grandfather as ‘Not a nice guy.’ Short tempered, shouted a lot, was very strict with my dad and my auntie, used plenty of physical punishment, slammed doors, broke things, had a very cruel and sarcastic laugh.

            My maternal grandfather died when I was around 10 years old. I never met him. My mother didn’t go to his funeral and had purposely disowned him years prior. She describes him as abusive to her mum. When her mum was dying in bed, shaking with cold, he would go round the house and open all the windows. My mum would come home from school and the house was freezing cold. My mum’s memories of him were all bad.

            Yes, she did have an extremely sad childhood, she remains close with one sibling, has no contact with the other. The whole set up was very sad and very strange. Definitely a LOCE.

            I can feel very sorry for my mum as a child. No child deserves that start in life.

            Xx

          40. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, thanks for your reply, and it’s interesting that video reminded you of an experience with your own mother which caused you to look back and consider what that meant.

            We do interpret the notion of ‘abuse’ somewhat differently going by your explanation to do with past relationships and I think there is a reason for that, though I’m not sure if I could explain it properly here.

            In contrast to you, I do consider my last relationship abusive through a recognition of all the signs of the narcissistic dynamic and also the impact it had on me. The same goes for my ex-husband (who was also on occasion physically abusive), and my mother. It makes me think, how many times do HG’s articles render an account of a physical assault taking place? I would say very rarely. What hurts people, and damages them, is the insidious nature of the narcissistic dynamic which separates the victim from others, diminishes them, causes them to lose sleep, second guess, be overcome with anxiety, lack concentration, fear abandonment. They are the mind games of the narcissist, aware or unaware, so the narcissist can maintain control.

            I can only come to one conclusion: narcissistic relationships are abusive relationships. They are abusive because we are being manipulated and controlled in a manner that undermines us as individuals.

            That in no way should take away the notion of more obvious abuse that comes with verbal, physical and sexual assault, but for me it compounds the notion of what abuse is and how to recognize it.

            In my opinion, any lack of recognition in this regard means a lack of the ability to GOSO – get out and stay out. It is the fundamental reason to both avoid and leave these relationships if you are in one. That reason being they are abusive. If we don’t see it that way, we don’t escape, or are less likely to do so, and the narcissist gives us plenty of reasons to think we should stay with occasional respite periods, random hoovers, fake apologies, etc. We need an impetus to get out, and calling the behaviour abusive is the impetus many people need.

            I’m curious to know what ended your relationship with the MMRA narcissist in the circumstances, though the fact is plenty of relationships end without there having to be a narcissist involved. Ending of relationships, in that sense, doesn’t have to equal abuse. It’s the combination of the narcissistic dynamic with the normal dynamic of relationships that needs to be untangled sometimes.

            Thank you for clarifying around your grandparent’s, TS. It was your maternal grandfather, not grandmother as I had thought, and the story of him opening the windows to let in the cold when your grandmother was dying 🙁 I remember because that seemed so cruel, even sadistic. Both grandfathers seem to have had issues, and I was a little surprised to hear about your father’s dad since you obviously classify your father as an empath. Things could definitely have gone either way for both your parent’s in their LOCE environments.

            I can agree that no child deserves what our collective parents experienced in their childhoods. It can make it tough to separate those sad children in some circumstances from the narcissists they become. It’s where we need all the help we can get to do so, as an empath’s heart is always open to loving and caring, and wanting to heal and fix, as HG says. We can’t see the forest for the trees and need to draw back from the more emotional aspect of our nature at times.

            I see you are planning to talk to HG about your concerns and I hope it helps with any uncertainty, TS. Wishing you all the best, as always xox

          41. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp,

            Yes I agree, I think my mum would have had to switch off her emotions to an extent. Once someone switches off, very difficult to switch back on. Without a parental figure growing up, in many ways I would be the first person who was really hers. You’d think she would have remembered me then, rather than leaving me outside Dorothy Perkins in my pram and walking home haha! I did find that funny when she told me. I can’t imagine forgetting my baby while out shopping. Maybe there was a sale on!

            Shifting sands would be a good description of my head at the moment! I go one way then I go the other. Sometimes narcissist seems plausible, other times utterly ridiculous. You were right to suggest a consult, thank you for that.

            Xx

          42. Asp Emp says:

            TS, I have read your responses to LET (and hers back to you) before typing mine back to you. I can decipher that you are having a difficult time, so I do not wish to add to your ‘load’ if you can understand?

            Ok, here is my ‘take’, considering your mother’s childhood and what she went through. Regardless of whatever your mother is. What you say in your comment here prompted me to think……. You being the only child, and whenever you went to your friend’s house, did she feel ‘abandoned’, or was she ‘reminded’ of the lack of security / stability? This reminded me of HG’s article ‘The 5 Fears of the Narcissist’. It is not your fault, you were a child too – remember this and do not feel guilty about it, you were a child.

            Great, that you are having a consult (or will have done by the time you read this?). After that, you can decide on the next steps. Breathe, TS. You will be able to sort things out in time. You’re strong and I know that you can do this 🙂 x

          43. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey LET,

            I think your explanation of what abuse is, is entirely accurate, particularly with regard to why people don’t escape and why they might be vulnerable in terms of getting hoovered back in. For someone to view a situation that they are in as being abusive when previously they didn’t recognise it as such, might be what is needed for them to GOSO. I don’t disagree with you at all. You’re right also, very few articles refer to the more obvious forms of abuse, physical, sexual etc. Far more concentrate on the insidious, passive aggressive and controlling behaviours. I hadn’t heard of financial abuse before arriving here either. That was totally new to me.

            The element where we differ is more how we view our personal experiences. I see abuse in many of the accounts given on the blog. I agree therefore that narcissists are abusive. When it comes to myself though I see myself as being manipulated rather than abused. I don’t ‘feel’ that I was abused. I recognise that I was subjected to manipulations designed to secure the Prime Aims. Some of the manipulations are the same as those used against others here who would correctly state that they were victims of narcissistic abuse. I just don’t feel the same way about my own personal experience as a whole. In many ways I think the stories of others are far worse than my own. That has a lot to do with it too I think. They were abused so I can’t have been.

            The MMRA ( better known as best sex ever guy). Technically I left in the golden period. There was still great sex, surprise weekends away, dinner dates, gifts, flowers etc. I was met from work with a glass of wine, dinner already cooking. Compliments, protestations of love, suggestions of marriage and so on. He did used to comment about how big his ex wife’s boobs were haha! I think that’s the only obvious triangulation and only once or twice. He mirrored me by buying a very similar car to my own pride and joy. That irritated me but I think still places that behaviour within the golden period.

            He was monopolising me though. As soon as my car pulled up on the drive and I got to my apartment door, he was there. I’d mention a night out with friends and what do you know? He’d surprise me with a weekend away that very same weekend. I’d say I had work to do that night and he’d leave it an hour and show up with snacks ( for energy), wine ( for a break) all sorts. So he was doing his best to isolate me and monopolise my time, but doing it in a very MMRA way. I didn’t recognise his behaviour as manipulative. What I recognised was that I felt stifled. I really don’t like having my wings clipped, at all. Then, I would feel like I was being ungrateful because he was being so nice.

            The thing that ended it was a single event. I was going on a six month secondment to France. We discussed it and agreed I would fly back for weekends every second or third weekend but to settle, make friends, get to grips with the project I would spend 4-6 weeks there before the first trip back. If you say no to too many social events when you are new, pretty soon people stop asking. I needed to set myself up with friends, get used to the area, the ex pat thing, the project etc.

            Two weeks after I arrived he showed up at my office unannounced holding a huge bouquet of roses. That did it for me. It wasn’t sweet, it wasn’t romantic, it was an invasion of my privacy and a complete disregard for me, my needs, our agreement. He was there for him, not for me, doing what he wanted to do, no consideration for the situation that placed me in as far as timescales for the project, ( ridiculously tight) plans or commitments. That single event made me realise what he was doing and had been doing. I turned instantly. I was done in that same moment. I let him stay the weekend until his return flight and ended it before he left.

            The funny thing is that when I got back after the secondment, he had installed someone new in his apartment. My kitchen was above his lounge. He would have really noisy sex in his lounge, I swear I could hear every thrust whilst eating my spaghetti bolognese haha! He showed up one night when she wasn’t staying with him, Showed me pictures of his recent holiday with her etc. I told him she looked lovely and I was happy for him. He chanced his arm with “That could have been you. It could still be you.” Seriously? You have to hand it to the guy for the sheer brass neck of it. I politely declined but took the opportunity to give him his key back and ask for my own back. They were always at it and I hadn’t wanted to intrude since being back home. 😂

            Do you see what I mean? I can see I was manipulated, but can’t say I was abused. I think because I was away, that split was far easier than it might have been. Looking back on it, the fact that I moved around so much with work saved me on more than one occasion. I think it’s different when you are living with or have to divorce a narcissist or you have kids with a narcissist. That very much locks you in. It’s not insurmountable as HG says, but it’s definitely far more difficult to escape.

            Thank you for your good wishes with the outcome of my consultation with HG. I’m looking forward to it. I feel like I need a reset somehow.

            Xx

          44. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I appreciate your first paragraph immensely. Well stated x

            I see where we differ, and your description of the relationship with the MMRA feels overwhelming. OMG, he was totally OTT, and his boundary breaking behaviour has red flags written all over it. Killing you with kindess, and kindness you did not even want. He sounds very needy and desperate for your fuel! I think the fact you already hold strong boundaries really helped you in that situation. The alarm bells would have been ringing loud and clear. Being more self reliant would have definitely been in your favour in sussing that guy out and ultimately rejecting him. This is where empaths can fall down at times, we are too kind, lacking in strong boundaries, and people like that can keep pushing in order to wear us down, which it sounds like he was trying to do. I can imagine how unimpressed you were and only straight talk would have brought an end to his narcissistic shenanigans!

            I don’t want to impinge on your own understanding and feelings around that in terms of your past relationships and how we each perceive or experience abuse. You use the word manipulation, or being manipulated, as way to describe what happened to you. OTT guy was definitely trying to be manipulative, but you were on to him pretty fast. I’m sure that reduces the level of any impact. You got out and stayed out. We’ve had the conversation before about manipulation and how we view that, too. Where I think the difference might partially lie is in your empathic nature – Super – which strengthens you against the narcissist and impact the narcissist can have on you. I also think you shy away from seeing yourself as a victim. This is what I meant earlier when I said I wasn’t sure if I could explain the difference, but that might be it (from my perspective) in a nutshell. You are strong and capable and therefore unable or less likely to be victimised. You don’t see yourself as a victim as a child since you don’t believe you were an ACON, and don’t see yourself as a victim as an adult either. You contended with the circumstances and they did not defeat you. I agree, many people’s circumstances here were particularly harrowing and in many ways there is no comparison, for either of us.

            My experience of being an ACON was expressed more recently in comments to AspEmp which highlighted the insidious nature of my mother’s narcissism. No less damaging for me because it remained hidden, it still undermined me. And I did mention as individuals we would experience things differently and therefore be impacted by them differently also. In that sense, I respect your position on the term – abuse – and how it may be perceived.

            Thank you for sharing more of your thoughts around the topic, and I’m sure you’re looking forward to your consult xox

          45. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            You’re not overloading me lovely. In fact, the way you turn things around and look at both angles, my mum’s and mine is really helpful. It’s important to me that she gets a full and fair hearing, because I believe in that. Justice, cut me in two and I’m sure that would be written in the middle lol.

            It’s funny you should mention fear of abandonment. Her worst tantrums were linked to that. Me at university, boyfriends, preferring to spend time at my friend’s house than my own. There was a dislike of me being out of the house / independent. What she won’t have understood is why I wanted to be out of the house. The older I became, the more threats there were to her ownership of me. Difficult to say if it was ownership in the narc sense or fear of abandonment in a non narc sense. You are definitely right to raise this as a possibility though.

            Always happy to hear your thoughts Asp. I love the way you look at things. I find it thought provoking and also very supportive.

            Xx

          46. Asp Emp says:

            TS, I am awfully sorry, I have just seen your comment amongst communications with LET. I am glad you found it helpful RE: your mother’s behaviours when it comes to abandonment. I did wonder about the Co-D ‘element’ as LET suggested and I am glad she wrote that. As an outsider looking in – there are two ways of looking at this aspect – a) empath reaction = her fear of losing you takes her back to the lack of her stability / security as a child – hence her reactions but not necessarily being aware of the subconscious reasons why (her pain being ‘blocked’?), or b) narcissist reaction = a threat to her control. Obviously, there are other behaviours that can give ‘indicators’ either direction of the narcissism spectrum.

            This is obviously an issue for you, hence the reasons for you to have this resolved for yourself. And your children. Their relationships with their grandparents can be made easier (through your finding out for sure RE: your mother) and you can guide them too. Your children may have picked up on the difficulties that you are experiencing.

            Let’s say that your mother is not a narcissist, sounds like her father was one. She may not be up for discussing anything but you could talk with her about what you have learned about narcissism and why you went into learning the subject? As you can see from this blog and other comments, HG’s work was more than narcissistic abuse therapy in my case.

            Anyway, I hope you are doing better now? I’ll keep the link to this thread on my WordDoc so I can fin it again due to missed notifications. Hang in there, Super Empath! xox

          47. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            First and most importantly. Thank you for your understanding and acceptance. 😘 Your last comment meant far more to me than you might realise. I seem to be caught in a downwards spiral mood wise and reading your comment this evening felt very much like a lifeline.

            I’ve been having doubts of late, doubts about everything. For the first time ever, I have had to seriously question if I’m actually a narc. I have never considered that before, which is narcy in itself. I’ve thought about it a lot recently though. The way I am, things I do repeatedly, my lack of forgiveness, my turning or door slamming and worse, the fact that I have absolutely zero desire to change that behaviour. Lack of willingness to ever fully confide my history or my thoughts. My dark uncharitable thoughts, anger that bubbles away but is kept confined and nicely controlled, all sorts. I doubt. I have questioned the accuracy of the EDC and TDC, asked myself how a narc would self evaluate. Did I unwittingly trick the system through sheer self delusion? The problem is that if you doubt one thing, just one, that doubt infects everything else. The accuracy of an NDC for my mum, the relevance of even being here at all. The feeling, that once again, I find myself in the wrong place.

            Maybe you’re right. Maybe the Super in me does really show itself sometimes. I don’t know. I don’t really see myself as that school. I do everything I can to avoid admitting to having that school in my make up at all. I think the mid range kick ass version of it just makes me reject it even more. You’re right about the boundaries. I have certain things that I just don’t accept and will never ever forgive even if I think I ought to. You’re right also about the unwillingness / inability to ever see myself as a victim.

            I might be wrong in the way I look at my ensnarements, but the fact that you are willing to accept the way I view them means a great deal to me. You never fail to read into me and offer up suggestions as to why I see things a certain way, rightly or wrongly. No judgement, just acceptance. I’m horribly cloudy tonight but very thankful that you are here to listen.

            Xx

          48. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I’m very glad I could be somewhat of a shelter in your storm and at the same time sorry to hear you are going through a darker or more doubtful period. Those are trying times and also often times when we withdraw. That is sometimes necessary, but you have also done the necessary in grabbing the lifeline being held out to you – whether it be mine or someone else’s. It’s important to recognise these things <3

            " The problem is that if you doubt one thing, just one, that doubt infects everything else."

            To me, that quote is the start of the spiral. Doubt is infectious, and the questioning can lead us down a path of further questioning where we feel we can't trust anything we know – or thought we knew – and that is bound to alter our mood. How can we feel confident, bouyed, when we are filled with so much uncertainty? It's not possible. We will begin to feel the opposite and that will take a toll.

            Perhaps you recognise the place of the initial doubt and what caused you to begin questioning. Maybe in that moment you were not the person you thought you were or hoped to be. Perhaps there was a trigger that generated a more narcissistic response. Considering your School, I would imagine such a thing is not unexpected, and have experienced it myself, only later questioning whether I should have said or done something, whether I was right to hold a grievance, perhaps needed to be more forgiving. Then I look at myself in that moment and see, being who I am, I would not have done or said differently, I was entitled to hold a grievance and forgiveness is only possible if I desire to forgive.

            Sometimes we lose the balance we so dearly hold between empathic and narcissistic traits. That doesn't make us a narcissist. It makes us human. To be truly empathic all the time would make us 'divine'. Perhaps that's where the narcissist derives their sense of divinity from as they lack empathic traits to draw on. 100% of anything is going to cause us to feel God-like. In that sense, I thank my lucky stars I'm merely mortal.

            It may be you've tripped over that aspect of yourself and now are finding it hard to pick yourself up again. In that way, I have a sense you are judging yourself and quite harshly, too. Not in a million years would I perceive you to be anything but an empath, as well as the School and Cadres determined for you. I have to say that, because we don't always see ourselves as others see us. I never see you carry out 'pity plays' and so you hopefully will discount that from your concerns, and in an opposite manner to that you show your strengths but not in a boasting way, rather in way that you are reluctant at times to even speak about or acknowledge them.

            That is humility, and the narcissist is full of pride. I don't get that vibe from you – at all – and strong boundaries are not an indication to me of prideful behaviour, but self preserving behaviour. If you think about the situation with the narcissist, Super's appear to be the most inclined to self-preserve in the circumstances. They will walk away, without hesitation, and you remind me at times here that self-preservation is the reason. It's not to hurt or harm another, it's not to seek revenge down the track, it's simply to say that you know this relationship is not good for you.

            When you talk about 'closing doors', even forcefully, I think it's because you have a very strong sense of who you are, what you will accept and what you won't accept. That doesn't make you a narcissist. It makes you a challenge to the people who would seek to take advantage of you and ensures they don't get the opportunity to do that. As empaths we should not feel bad for dismissing or rejecting 'charlatans', no matter how sad their story or how deep our need to heal and fix. They will only use us and not seek to know us at all, even though they may give that impression at times for the purpose of gaining our trust.

            Without having HG's expertise, I can unequivocally state that I believe you are an empath and that is purely on the instinct inherent in my own empathic nature. Have I ever questioned that nature? Definitely. Do I understand now that I also have narcissistic traits that can override my empathic traits. Yes, I do. Should I judge myself to be unempathic and even a narcissist because I have light and shade to my character? Never. We are not God's, and as much as we cherish our empathy we need to accept the opposite to that also exists and it exists for a purpose. It's one part of our nature that sometimes helps to keep us safe. It's all about balance.

            Happy to be here to listen, TS, and hope you can banish those doubts during your consult with HG xox

          49. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            I hope you find this comment, I have a horrible feeling it’s going to be in the wrong spot. I lost your comment, remembered what you said, but couldn’t remember for the life of me where you said it!

            Re my mum possibly being an empath. I actually hadn’t thought of this as a possibility until a couple of people mentioned it and you’re right, she was at her worst at the points where I was ‘leaving’. She definitely had LOCE as regards being abandoned in childhood. That’s a definite. That sense of abandonment might also have led to empathy erosion and more extreme behaviours directed my way.

            My mum has talked about her childhood but not extensively. I have the full series of events but it isn’t something she refers to often and she doesn’t use it to excuse any behaviours. That could again be seen as she doesn’t believe her behaviours were wrong, or, she has emotional empathy and just didn’t want to discuss her feelings around her childhood.

            If she isn’t a narcissist, my gut feel is that she would say she is too old to revisit all of that now. I don’t think she would see that her childhood trauma impacted her and impacted my relationship with her. She sees me fairly regularly these days, we don’t live under the same roof so any sense of abandonment has largely been rectified by the routine we have both fallen in to.

            I sent my NDC to HG 🙂 Once I have the outcome then I’ll let you know and if she turns out to be a non narcissist, then I would really like to listen to your thoughts on her LOCE and steps I can look at taking to rebuild the relationship. Can’t change the past, but, I could work on the future. If not and she is MMRB then I think my current arrangement works. I’m not impacted, dad isn’t impacted, and mum stays even.

            A wise but still young man pointed out to me recently that I don’t have a time machine. I can’t go back and change the past, I could make moves to change the future though. I take his point. I do have the opportunity to make changes if she isn’t a narcissist.

            You were right to nudge me to a consultation Asp, I am stubborn when it comes to asking for help, but your suggestion was the right one. Thank you again.

            Xx

          50. Asp Emp says:

            TS, hey 🙂 Yes, I found it (cos I kept the link to my earlier comment back to you) 🙂

            Thank you for sharing more about what you know about your mother’s past. I am glad to read that you are looking at it from both aspects, narcissist, or empath. It is good that you are doing that.

            Yes, I understand your consideration in not necessarily talking with her about her past. Not yet any way. Ok, we will wait until you get the NDC back. And we all (LET, others on this blog, HG) can take it (or not take it) from there. HG would be the best person to discuss the further steps / considerations to take should the NDC result be ‘positive’.

            Of course, I’ll ‘talk’ about it further with you should the result be that your mother is an empath. If she is, going back to what I suggested, and maybe chat with her and maybe she’d like to have her EDC / TDC done? That way, you both can put all this behind you after talking about it. And, she can decide if she wishes to ‘explore’ her childhood traumas – she may even would have a consult with HG herself?

            It’s only a suggestion, you and your kids could ‘house-swap’ for a weekend, if you feel you can do this and that your father would be happy to have the kids for a weekend – you & your mother have a weekend together, go out, talk and have lunches out etc.

            I agree that if she is narcissist, no point in talking about it with her. At all. Never mind the weekend idea!

            I am just glad you went ahead with the consult. I also understand why there is the degree of procrastination. I am like that too. I do not think it is narcissism addiction related 🙂 Well done, TS, for staying strong and for your own strength to continue through whatever you have done to date 🙂 xx

          51. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            Thank you for your understanding and for the encouragement, it felt really good. I’m not used to being supported, usually because I don’t talk about things that are happening currently only things that have happened or might happen. I have felt very supported here though, by you and the other empaths who have offered their thoughts and honest opinions.

            Yes, we need to see the outcome of the NDC and then look at it from there. It’s strange, and I feel mean admitting this, but the thought of spending a weekend alone with my mum just really makes me recoil. I can feel the tension in my stomach and the walls coming up. If the result was negative I’d really have a mental barrier to overcome. Similarly she could still be a negative influence without being a narc. I’d really have to look at that. A weekend sounds excruciating but shorter one to one visits more regularly would likely feel more manageable. I think I’d want to find out whether some of her behaviours were as a result of her own trauma. Essentially, not her fault. I’d want to try to help, I’d just be starting from a point of zero attachment. That’s not nice to admit but it is the truth of the situation.

            Would she consult with HG? I’m not sure she would think that she needed to. I don’t think she would admit to any problems with the relationship, or if she did, she would attribute those problems to me haha! I would likely consult with HG myself and implement his suggestions to try and open her mind to the idea that all has not been well in the garden of her and I. Similarly though I would never rule anything out.

            I’ll let you know the outcome Asp, your thoughts in either scenario will be very welcome.

            Xx

          52. Asp Emp says:

            Hey, TS, it’s fine. It is really good that you feel you are being supported now that you have spoken about what you needed to speak about. I understand totally RE: the thought of spending a weekend with mother. I know exactly what you mean RE: the sensations at just thinking about it.

            Interesting that your next steps are more or less dependent, and quite rightfully, on the results of the NDC.

            We’ll confer more when the results comes back, regardless of what they are 🙂 Thank you for your acknowledgement of my input 🙂 Well done, you, on getting at this point 🙂

          53. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Thank you Asp Emp,

            To be continued… haha!

            😘xx

        2. Another Cat says:

          Truthseeker, Asp Emp, really sorry to read what you went through with vanishing friends and so on.

          Truthseeker said:

          “That said, and in her defence, I don’t confide, so I am difficult to support.”

          This got me a little curious because one of my coworkers reminds me of you in general, reading your comments here through these past months. She is very easy to talk to, smiling, intelligent, her work is about supporting others, and she has also said this about herself, that she doesn’t share much. She supports and cheers up moods and I have wondered a bit who supports her.

          So my question is this, I’m curious: Do you have close ppl, like one or two, with whom you confide a little more?

          (When it comes to myself there are deep issues, namely narcissistic abuse, which I only mention to two people irl, grand sum total)

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Another Cat, thank you for your comment. Reading what you say about the co-worker, maybe she is the way she is because of her past? Maybe it is not necessarily about the lack of trust, maybe it is about the amount of pain (ie deep issues) and the amount of empathy she has? There are people who simply do not share absolutely every thing about their pasts because they do not wish to discuss it.

            I am sorry to read that you also feel the need to ‘limit’ who you can talk to. I can relate to that. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, interesting but not surprising to read 🙂

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Another Cat,

            Firstly, I’m flattered to that I remind you of your colleague, you speak highly of her, thank you for that.

            In answer to your question, I don’t really confide in anyone. I am not sure myself what the exact reason for that is. I’ve pondered it here on the blog before now.

            I am very close to my dad. He hasn’t done the EDC, but I know he is a far stronger empath than I am. I don’t confide in him, mostly because I wouldn’t want to worry him. He’s a real worrier. I tend to go to him though, even if I don’t confide what’s wrong, I still go to him to be around him.

            People confide in me, that’s my role really. I listen into what they tell me, kind of find where they are emotionally and drag them back up by the scruff of the neck haha! I never really feel that anyone is able to do that for me. There’s an element of me feeling quite alone in that respect.

            I think the idea of confiding also terrifies me though too. I almost take pride in not confiding. It’s almost a game. When I was at my lowest ebb, really low, no one knew. I was still immaculately presented, still cracking jokes, still functioning. It’s a performance and a shield. If I had stopped, confided how I felt to someone, I think I might just have unravelled completely.

            I’m not sure if your colleague is similar AC. If she is similar, sometimes just the presence of someone can really help. So if you sensed something was wrong, just being around her, easy neutral conversation, would make a difference.

            Xx

          3. Joa says:

            A very interesting conversation about friendship. Asp Emp, TS, Bubbles – it was wonderful to read your words and observations.

            TS closed again, oh no! 🙂

            I confess to something. When it comes to women: I don’t need girlfriends, but I’m glad they are! I have no requirements for them. I am happy to contact them, if they want to talk or need me in some way – I am. When they disappear for a month or six months, I don’t make a drama out of it. I know that they are preoccupied with something else, it is good, they are satisfied. Whenever, there is something unwell or I need to talk, we immediately reestablish contact and it is very close.

            They are: my sister and two girlfriends. Savior, Carrier and Dirty Empathy Carrier (my opinion). Together for decades 🙂

            Women – only empaths. The rest are is only acquaintances.

            When it comes to men – Narcissists dominate + one Normal (a long time ago I was very in love with him, but I lacked the courage then, it’s a pity, the best male friend I had, the only normal who could stand with me, but I was afraid to hurt him and I was afraid he would reject me.) I spend time with the Narcissists every day. Close, but always ready for a sudden turn of events. They are also relationships for decades – with greater or lesser intensity, depending on the needs.

            There are also women of Somatic Narcissists on the margins of my life. I ignore them. I avoid. I don’t notice. I am silent. Only basic polite phrases.
            For reasons unknown to me, it happens that they become obsessed with me. Tracking, slandering, lieutenants (sometimes cruel words are uttered “online”, even about my child…). It’s really amazing considering I really do NOTHING. Some women I don’t even know “live”. The fact, that I am a public figure and, for example, will appear on TV is enough. They lynch me in public, send their “admirers” to me, and at the same time write to me privately, wanting to make friends. I keep them at a BIG distance.

            I am an ordinary person, modestly dressed (even poor), natural. An average girl from the street, always with bundles and shopping bags or with dogs, always on the run and in a hurry, disheveled, not hiding my “boring” (for the world) interests. And women of completely different caliber cling to me.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            Joa, thank you for your compliment 🙂 I understand exactly what you mean RE: girlfriends. One of mine went off the ‘radar’ for around 3 / 4 years because of what she was going through (a very difficult narcissist ensnarement). It has happened more than once, she’d had another marriage to another narcissist. She’d vowed to never marry again (mainly financial related ‘decision’ and the emotional / mental ‘trauma’).

            What you say about females and the behaviours is interesting. I suppose women tend to be like that towards other women. Maybe it is the same with men and other men? Is it something that has been ‘in-built’ from the first humans on earth? Survival of the fittest? Instinctual ‘competition’? Insecurity / confidence based?

            Your last paragraph is good to read. You are confident, just being ‘you’ within your surroundings. I liked the word you used “calibre” 😉 I understand 🙂 It reminds me of referring to MRN about his wife being a ‘limpet’ 😉 Interesting that I used that (limpet on a rock) – probably empath ‘speak’ 🙂

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello Joa x,

            I’m similar, in that since around the age of 16, I’ve had far more male friends than female. I was badly betrayed by a close female friend around this time. My relationship with my mother was very strained too. I found men far easier company, still do to a degree. Less demanding, loyal, protective, very funny in a group. On the whole I think men bond far less through secret exchange and more through shared experience. That means far fewer personal questions (perfect for me) and a lot of fun. Admittedly I was the one they all confided in privately, because although they bond more through shared experience I think there’s also a need to share their concerns / deeper thoughts occasionally.

            I do have women as friends, but usually I find men easier. The blog is the exception. On the whole I find the women here really supportive and non judgemental. The anonymity helps with that too I think, but many of the women I speak to regularly here, I would still love to meet in real life. Empathic women are definitely warmer and more welcoming. Sadly I don’t know any in real life. I suspected one newer friend was empathic but changed my mind. I’m surrounded by normals as usual. You’re very lucky to have an inner circle of empath friends. 😊

            Xx

          6. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Joa,
            I have had more male based friendships than women especially in my early years. I do concur very much with Truth.
            A girlfriend at school stole a broach from me in primary school. I was devastated.
            I only ever had two close female friends at high school (all girls school) even though I was popular. I was class captain and then made a Prefect. I got on well with all my female teachers.
            I do find men are easier, they ask less questions, non judgemental, they’re not catty or bitchy, they have far more interesting topics to discuss.
            They’re not looking you up and down with what you’re wearing and comparing every little detail. They gossip less. They’re there when you need them and would take your mind off any problems and steer you in a direction you never thought of with clear concise easy and practical solutions. I found they also have a better sense of humour. They’re more punctual and just plain chilled. Also it’s lovely and possible to have just platonic relationships with men, you could go out and they wouldn’t put the hard word on you, you felt safe.

            My female group are a fun bunch and we never get bored as we have mutual interests and we always run out of time wanting more.

            Circumstances in life usually change your friendships along with maturity and just outgrowing each other. Dropping of the twig is another.

            Of course being a couple, most of our friends are couples and I get on well with both sexes.

            I understand why women cling to you Joa, to them you’re not a threat.
            But you are real and deep down they would like to be more like
            you.
            I luv your confidence Joa and the fact fact you are comfortable in your own skin, just keep on being you.
            💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          7. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, it was interesting but not surprising to read what you say here. RE: your words “They’re not looking you up and down with what you’re wearing and comparing every little detail” – laughing.

          8. Another Cat says:

            Truthseeker wrote

            “I have tried to keep a respectful distance from ACON conversations and find out I’m one myself.”

            I wonder if I started something on this very page. Back when you explained that you don’t confide, I was startled, I thought “Really not an ACON?” I also immediately reflected on that empathic woman at work for some reason, the one I thought reminded of you. I’m very relieved that you don’t need to feel any guilt anymore. I’m in no contact and every year Mother’s Day gets a tad easier.

        3. Truthseeker6157 says:

          LET,

          Thank you so much for taking such time and thought in writing this comment to me. I read it last night, and really thought about what you said. As cloudy as I have felt of late, I could still pick out your logic here, could feel your honesty and really appreciated your own thoughts on where I was at.

          My ET has been a battle. A few months ago I found a lump in my breast. There was no “is there or isn’t there ?” about it. It was the size of a marble. I ignored it to begin with. If I didn’t voice it, then it wasn’t there. There were other things I needed to focus on, so I set it off to one side. A few weeks ago I decided to go to the doctor who referred me for tests. I had a two week wait. I’m not good at waiting or being held in limbo at the best of times. During those two weeks I researched everything about stages of breast cancer, treatment, side effects. I wanted to be prepared for whatever news was headed my way. I wanted to make informed decisions as to what I would do in each scenario, where I would draw the line at ‘to fight or not to fight’. No doubt my ET was steadily rising. I had the tests. I received the results last Friday. Benign. All is well.

          During that period I had started re evaluating myself. Things I have done and not done. People I have had involvement with. I also listened to Exchange with a Parental Narcissist. I analysed my decision making with my mum, the emotional disconnect that I instigated and I analysed her. With soaring ET, a decision I had previously been content with now seemed questionable. If she is a narcissist, good decision, if not, was that decision cruel on my part? Should I have tried harder to fix it, if not in childhood, in adulthood? And so the self doubt crept in. What kind of person detaches from their own mother if she isn’t a narcissist? That was it, I moved from analysing her, to analysing me and yes, I am a very exacting judge when it comes to myself. I have a list of narcissistic behaviours for my mum, but I also was compiling a fault list for myself.

          I moved from logic to emotion at that point. Logically I can’t be a narcissist because I do very much experience genuine emotional empathy. I ignored that though and looked only at the faults not at the facts. Emotional Thinking is a real pain in the arse isn’t it? I think it’s actually Fight or Flight. That would be another name for it. I was held in Fight or Flight and it started to drain me. The clouds crept in, and I was going down all kinds of avenues of thought, none of them logical.

          Your comment really helped LET. If there was a Narcsite notice board where comments could be pinned to help current and future readers in times of real self doubt, I would vote for yours to be placed there. I hope that future readers find it, because it is the epitome of what being an empath is but it also bears testimony to the logic that you have learned here on the blog and through HG’s work.

          I still strongly suspect my mum is a MMRB, but, I no longer suspect that I am a narcissist. I am my schools and cadres just as you said and just as HG evaluated.

          I spoke with HG today. I probably sound more like my usual self now haha! The only narcissist who is able to lower an empath’s ET rather than just raise it! We talked through my thoughts about my mum, my decision making etc and the session really helped to focus me back on the logic. I feel far happier and far less erratic and I have decided to go ahead with the NDC. I have also decided not to beat myself up, no matter what the outcome might be. I think I know the outcome already but, I trust HG to analyse my responses dispassionately. I feel confident that I can present the positives and negatives of my mum and I trust him to interpret them correctly.

          I’ll let you know the outcome when I have it.

          LET, your lifeline arrived exactly when needed and it did make a real difference to how I felt entering my consultation today. Thank you 😘

          Xx

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS <3 Thank you for sharing more of your deeply personal journey here xox

            I can only imagine you were beside yourself wondering about the lump you found and the outcome of tests around that. We often go to the worst case scenario, while at the same time wishing it all away, and are also tossed and turned in the emotional sea that figures into more than just relationships. It's an emotional time where you have to consider all the possibilities, and I'm so relieved to hear all is well xox It's not just fear for ourselves, but fear for those we love which cause us to spiral and enter a void where everything looks dark and threatening.

            You've had a lot on your mind and by the sounds of things you are slowly spiralling up again … good news 🙂 I feel so happy knowing that you are bravely crossing that emotional sea with both oars in the water and with renewed strength as well. When the ET rises, it's like being left with an oar, sometimes two oars! We're being tossed and turned and losing all control. Even empaths have a need to feel secure in that sense.

            I appreciate you saying my comment helped you and sometimes all we need is some clarification to help us see things as they are and not as we imagine. ET really takes hold of our imagination and so it's good to hear through your consult with HG you've been able to bring that right back down again.

            I think you've worked very hard to try to be fair to your mother, even being less fair to yourself in the process. Sometimes we lose trust in ourselves when we consider other people and put their needs before our own. It's an empathic thing to do, but we diminish ourselves at times when doing so. You are well versed enough now to know your own empathic character, while also accepting that narcissism has taken a toll on your life recently and led you to more of an understanding around that. You may be at a point where accepting someone is a narcissist does not necessarily mean placing a judgement on them, as much as it entails an understanding of who they are and how they impacted you. You will know what to do with that if and when it happens.

            I really appreciate you sharing again, TS, and I'm so glad your consult bore good fruit in terms of lowering your ET and shoring up the strengths of your empathic identity. Good to know the consults are always there when you need them and there may be more in your future as you come to terms with your past. I just want to say I'm glad that we are here and have been able to benefit from all that is on offer, including the friendships that we form <3.

            You've got this xox

          2. Asp Emp says:

            LET, absolutely fantastic comment. So well written and so much compassionate empathy. It was good to read it xx

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you, AspEmp xox

            It came from the heart <3

          4. WhoCares says:

            TS – that’s quite the health scare – glad it’s resolved for you!

          5. Leigh says:

            TS, first let me say, I’m so happy to hear its benign! I hope you had some support through the process. I’m like you. I ignore it and if I don’t speak about it, then its not true. LOL! That never works, does it?

            You said in a previous comment, “The way I am, things I do repeatedly, my lack of forgiveness, my turning or door slamming and worse, the fact that I have absolutely zero desire to change that behaviour. Lack of willingness to ever fully confide my history or my thoughts. My dark uncharitable thoughts, anger that bubbles away but is kept confined and nicely controlled, all sorts.”

            I could have wrote that statement. I also question all the time whether or not I’m a narcissist. I often wonder if I answered the questions wrong on the EDC and TDC. I know that Mr. Tudor can spot these things from a mile away though.

            Self evaluation is what makes us not narcissists. Narcissists don’t have the ability to self evaluate. You’re a good egg, TS. You don’t need to ever doubt that.

            I’m so glad to hear you’re going to be ok. 😊😊😊

          6. Asp Emp says:

            TS, fkg hell. I am glad to read that you are ok. No wonder you have been all over the place. Believe me, I do totally understand what the ‘waiting’ period would have been like for you and also your ‘reasons’ why you kept quiet about it. I also understand the reasons for delaying to go and get it checked out. I had a ‘journey’ of my own from March last year. Most of my adult life, I had ‘felt’ that there was something that doctors had missed. I was on the right ‘track’ when I asked a GP about a specific blood test (when I was 30), he looked at me as if I was mad. I have my answer now, it was confirmed in January 2022, genetically inherited, but FFS. I am still angry with the medical “professionals” over it and if I had not found my way to KTN, I do not know how I would have been mentally / emotionally without having learnt what I have learned about ET / LT, managing the ET / LT. Of course, the ‘news’ did not help my self-esteem / confidence, yet, I ‘ploughed’ on, continued my ‘re-processing’ and kept quite about it until about a month ago to a couple of friends. This past year, I am even more so with the mindset of crappy doctors that do not pay attention to what the patient is saying. I have gone off the ‘track’ here. I am sorry that you had to struggle on this health-scare and thank you for sharing about it. I do understand.

            I am glad that you have had a consult with HG. The man does wonders, absolute wonders.

            It is good that you will be able to make forward and positive advancement in letting go of the past and making things better for you and your children. Thank you for sharing something so personal and difficult. It can only improve from now on. Much kudos to you & hugs 🙂

          7. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Thank you. Yes, it was fear for the people around me that was driving me crazy. How would I hide it so the kids weren’t impacted at a really crucial time for them? I was into the fine details of concealment, was formulating a plan for each scenario. On the one hand I felt more in control, prepared, on the other it won’t have been doing me much good stress wise. Then with my questioning my mum, so questioning myself, I was stretched too thin. That’s very me. Don’t handle one thing at a time, oh no. Just take a run at it. Go for the lot!

            My little sail boat was taking damage on a very emotional sea! I did see your lighthouse though 😘xx

            I’m actually learning a lot over this last few weeks. How I attack inwards rather than outwards if under stress, how I can make totally illogical leaps when in that mindset. You’re right, we know what we are, but sometimes when we’re flailing about we need someone to just repeat back to us what we know. To anchor us again I suppose.

            I’m feeling much better today. I completed the NDC and sent it. It’s done, off the table, I’ve said it all and I know I’ll get a unemotional and accurate result from HG. The debating the decision was tougher for me than just getting it done. I think next time I’ll get to doing part sooner! If there is a next time.

            Thank you again for listening LET.

            Xx

          8. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I see how you just went for the lot and how exhausting that must have been mentally and emotionally. Your last paragraph about debating decisions is what is draining, I think, and how we spiral down with the thinking around that. There are too many decisions to be made or they are difficult decisions to come to, so it can all become a bit tangled as we try to process it. I’m glad you’ve reached the doing part now when it comes to your mother – hopefully HG’s response will provide relief either way – and have done what you needed to do as far as your health scare is concerned. In other words, you’ve cleared the deck and hopefully can enjoy some respite <3

            I did mean to say crossing the emotional sea *without* an oar or two oars, but hopefully you got the gist of that, and happy to have been a lighthouse in your time of need xox

            The listening, of course, goes both ways 🙂

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Who Cares,

            Thank you. It was a very strange feeling, the idea you could walk in somewhere and have no idea which result you could be handed. I’ve never faced anything like that before. It totally knocked me sideways. I’m far more appreciative of my day to day now though, so there is a positive that came out of those last few weeks. 🙂

            Xx

          10. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Leigh,

            Thank you, me too, panic over!

            Yes, If you don’t verbalise it then it isn’t there and you don’t have to think about it. I managed to do that for quite a while. I think it’s a bit like going to your corner. Go to your corner, get yourself geared up then sort it. I tend to need my corner first, even though in this case it was a particularly dumbass thing to do!

            That looking inwards, building a nice long list of faults for yourself and then using that list to sew that seed of doubt that maybe it’s you that is the narcissist. It’s a ticket to a very rapid decline. I still understood the reasons why I couldn’t be, but as the ET went up I just disregarded those and concentrated on the faults.

            Previously I have taken a lot of comfort from HG’s IQ. Too bright, no way I’d trick his system and get by him even if I had wanted to. That was enough for me not to bother doubting any EDC result. My ET must have been feeling particularly gifted last week ! 😂

            You are in a really difficult situation for ET Leigh. In all 5 arenas most of the time. I honestly think those dark thoughts stem from your ET more than anything else. I don’t like blaming ET for my mistakes, thoughts, behaviours, etc because it feels a bit like I’m making excuses. “It wasn’t me, it was my ET”. That doesn’t sit well with me. I’m responsible for me and my thoughts and actions are also on me. These last few weeks have shown me what ET can do to your thinking though. For me, it definitely impacted but it impacted inwardly. Any empathy erosion was targeted inwards not outwards at anyone else. It might be similar for you. This might be where those thoughts and worries are coming from.

            Maybe it’s time to consider a consultation with HG? Not to talk about your home situation but rather to talk through your concerns about your own thoughts. HG can put those doubts to rest for you, once and for all, and that peace is definitely worth having. I think it might help you to feel stronger in yourself, more in control.

            Just a suggestion, something to think about maybe.

            Thank you for your kind words and support Leigh I really appreciated them.

            Xx

          11. Leigh says:

            TS, LOL! Our comments about using our ET as an excuse came across at the same time. Great minds think alike, lol! My erosion of empathy is often inwards too. More times than I care to admit.

            Its so funny. Just yesterday I was in the knowledge vault looking to see if the Empath stuff was in there yet. Sadly, its not. But while I was there, I contemplated getting the email consultation. I do have some questions I’d want to ask Mr. Tudor.

            You’re very welcome, TS. Thank you for being so supportive of me as well.

          12. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Aww thank you for the hug, I’m a big hugger as you know. 😊

            Haha, I don’t need any encouragement to bash the medical professionals as you know! Too many narcs in medicine! I’m so sorry that they overlooked something that was clearly impactful for you. I hope you are being given the correct support with your diagnosis now though. We shouldn’t have to fight to be heard in that context. It’s totally wrong. You kept pushing to get to the truth of it but there are likely more who don’t push, who just go away and accept that not feeling as they should is now just a part of life. Well done you for fighting xx.

            Fortunately, on this occasion I have to say that the process was a finely oiled machine. All tests done in one day, open communication at each stage with the doctors. They didn’t try to hide anything, they told me at each stage what they saw. That works for me. So this time, in this specific area I would have to say I was pleasantly surprised.

            Haha! I know you could tell I wasn’t quite myself, you were very gentle in your comments but still told me what you thought. I appreciate you offering the possibilities as you see them. It helps me reconcile possible outcomes in advance. As we know, I prepare in advance!

            Hugs right back at you Asp Emp.

            Xx

          13. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. It was not me ‘fighting’ to be heard, I was not being listened to properly then I went quiet on that since I was 30. Because my GP fked up by not paying attention – she even knew my family health history but still failed to connect the dots, I suffered quite a bit last year but have 2 consultants “looking after” me now – just for monitoring purposes for a couple of years. Thing is, it seems that the doctors surgery are being “attentive” but as far as I am concerned, too fkg late. Far too late. I have had tell-tale ‘signs’ for so long. When GPs are not fkg reviewing medications properly, nor checking with me ie asking questions about the side effects, I was actually mentioning symptoms of the side effects – this raises serious considerations about narcissists being General Practitioners. There are 4 different meds (3 of them ‘issued’ simultaneously) over the years that I should not have been given, at all. I actually feel better now than I have done for 8 years. FFS. Sorry about this, TS. The issue I have talke about here is partly why I amso grateful to HG’s blog, his work – to aid in my ET / LT over this failed medical professionals “matter”.

            That is why, I suggested that narcissists should not be ‘permitted’ to train as GPs. Consultants, yes, surgeons, yes. Not GPs. I believe some people would understand my personal view on this aspect.

            I am glad that the medical process and communications was easier / clearer for you.

            Thank you for suggesting that I was being gentle with you. I believe we understand each other very well indeed. You and I are individuals that do / can look at our own behaviours and say / do something rather be ignorant about it.

            Yes, I totally get it RE: the planning in advance just because we are the type to “have to know everything”, otherwise it can create a bit of anxiety. You do sound a bit more back on track now and that is good to see. Welcome back, TS 🙂 (and thank you for listening) xx

          14. JB says:

            Oh gosh, TS, I’m sorry about your health scare, that must have been really scary for you! I’m so glad you are ok! Xx

          15. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            Haha yes, it looks like we were thinking in the similar way at the similar time. Definitely great minds 🤓

            Funny also you were thinking about a consultation. I’m a nightmare for going it alone. I’ll battle on for ages before I’ll ask for help. I don’t think it’s a case of undervaluing myself. I think it’s more a case of overestimating my own resilience.

            The other thing I struggle with is “Do I really need the help?” I could donate that money to someone who really really does need it. I battle with myself quite a lot over things like that.

            What I can say though is that both times I’ve consulted I’ve felt a great deal better afterwards. So if you do have questions, things that play on your mind, I think you owe it to yourself to get those questions answered. I am going to make a concerted effort to pit stop for a reset with HG more regularly going forward.

            Xx

          16. Leigh says:

            HI TS, I’m very similar in that I believe I can take care of everything myself and that I don’t really need the help. Its not about the money. I’ve spent quite a bit of cash on Mr. Tudor’s books and in the knowledge vault. I’ve read at least 30 books and have at least 30 items from the knowledge vault. I believe knowledge is power so I try to read and listen as much as possible. There are a couple of different things for me. When I first came here, it was about workplace narc. There was no way I was paying to try and figure him out. He didn’t deserve it. I also tend to ignore things until they can’t be ignored anymore. Lately, I’ve been thinking about doing a consult more because I’m having difficulty with my daughter. If you listen to “How to Handle a Parental Narcissist”, Mr. Tudor gives us a tool to use. I can do it with the other narcs in my life, but not with my daughter. She’s my baby. At some point I have to figure it out.

            After listening to all the interviews, I did realize how valuable a consult can be.

          17. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Haha yes I did read your comment as “without an oar”. The image of the emotional sea is a very accurate one, that’s exactly how it feels. I wonder if HG visualises a lot too. The emotional empathy is absent so he can’t feel the distress himself but creates a picture in his mind of what he imagines it to feel like?
            There is clearly a very vibrant imagination there, a language of emotion, without having access to the emotion itself.

            There was a comment on one of the videos where HG was asked about a piece of his music sounding similar to the music on a video game. HG stated that he often used to play that video game. He learned the patterns in music that people respond to and emulated them. Words to that effect. I nearly spat my tea out. Haha!

            HG might well use a similar approach in his writing. I do think the video “Can You Feel Me?” is designed to reach the Contagion Empath. The music behind the words has a lot to do with that, plus, the way the words are spoken, the thumbnail, all of it. It’s a very impactful piece, I have listened to it over and over. Funnily enough, I played it for my daughter. She was tasked with writing a piece of horror fiction a while ago. I used the video to illustrate the fact that scaring someone is a slow steady process, a build up, subtle, it isn’t overt. You can imagine what teens might write haha! She got the idea, but the video didn’t effect her in the way it does me. She wasn’t pulled into it. I don’t see Contagion in my daughter, I actually think she is of the same lead school and cadre as I am, not sure yet about her minority elements though. That could of course be wishful thinking on my part, don’t think so.

            I wonder if empath schools and cadres have a tendency to run in families? Different configurations of the same elements perhaps. To track a family line would be fascinating. It would make sense because the child would see those behaviours modelled repeatedly so nurture would have a strong influence over school and cadre or so you would think.

            Another meandering comment haha! I am about to get back to you on the other thread too, I’ve kind of teetered over into the same subject!

            As an aside, Im wondering if the Dark Cupid lighthouse image isn’t the lighthouse at Beachy Head. Writing that here so I don’t forget. Busy mind, there’s all sorts floating round in there this morning. 😂

            Xx

          18. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I would have to agree with you about HG’s imagination, which appears to have been very active from quite a young age … a method of escape perhaps. We inject ourselves into other realities and it probably aligns with the ability to be a chameleon and take on different personas. I’ve often wondered about actors and their ability to show emotion and think it must align in a similar way – there is a high degree of cognitive empathy that allows for the ‘appearance’ of emotion due to the ability to study and mimic behaviours. It is a sad fact that these emotions cannot be truly felt when they capture so much of the reality of lived experience. For empaths there needs to be an honesty behind the emotion, for narcissists it’s purely the gaining of the prime aims. We are total opposites in so many ways, yet can look similar when cognitive empathy is at a premium. The ability to so thoroughly ‘cheat’ at life astounds me. Especially when it is believed by others and this must also provide premium fuel for the narcissist. The fact they get away with it must also increase their sense of ‘duper’s delight’. They are happy campers indeed, the narcissists who can pull the wool over so many people’s eyes.

            I found it incredibly strange that I made a comment about fairies in the forest in relation to that melody and later discovered it was apparently connected to a game, even more intriguingly a game HG used to play … someone mentioned the name of it and I looked it up. Then I found this video in relation to the game: https://youtu.be/0mW2Jvp3SpI HG could have been the narrator on this one … or the toad! “Not all stories have happy endings” HG loves to treat us to the dark side, including by suggesting he eats fairies for breakfast with brown sauce and morning dew! I’ll never look at the garden in Tudor Towers in the same way again 🙁

            The pattern in the music created an image for me which is what I shared. I.m not sure if that’s what you mean when you say how music creates a response, but I’m with you on spitting out your tea at HG’s explanation … it insinuates a very high degree of observation on his part in terms of people’s reactions and his ability to tune into those. For myself, I feel the music, as I know you do, and it’s a purely personal experience, not related to how others might perceive or be reacting to the music at all. I get lost in it as opposed to being aware of others and their response.

            I’ll need to check out the video “Can You Feel Me?” before I comment further on that. I’ll be back for further reflection 🙂

            It’s interesting what you say about your daughter and how you can make comparisons between you. I don’t know about aspects of empathy running in families because I have no history of empathic individuals, apart from the possibility of my grandfather on my mother’s side who died when I was a child. Otherwise they all appear to be narcissists or normals! I struck the jackpot 😉

            Right, I’m also going to have to go back to DC, where I started a comment but was interrupted. Interesting about the lighthouse and I feel like Beachy Head was mentioned in a song once upon a time … maybe Van Morrison?

            Anyway, you’ve given me some more homework to do … I’ll be back <3 xox

            (No time to edit, please excuse an mistakes!)

          19. lickemtomorrow says:

            Edit: My grandfather on my mother’s side died when she was a child, not when I was a child. I never met either of my grandparent’s on that side, but granny was a narc.

          20. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            You nailed it. GP’s are most definitely the problem. For you to have been prescribed three medications at the same time without regular review as to their impact is just mind boggling to me. To be reporting side effects and the GP not joining the dots sounds a lot like incompetence.

            When I was in the US, I had a couple of babysitters over the course of my time there. I grew very close to them. Both girls at university, both on meds for anxiety / depression, one being medicated for bipolar disorder. Anyone I spoke to seemed to be on meds for something. My view was that doctors were very trigger happy with their prescriptions. Since returning home, I have noticed a big shift during the ten years I was away. Very similar. Doctors seem far happier to prescribe. A “ let’s try this” approach.

            I firmly believe in the usefulness of medication post a thorough diagnosis but to leave someone on inappropriate meds for 8 years is woefully poor treatment. It’s no wonder you are angry. I would be too. I’m very glad that you are getting the appropriate treatment now, and with regular evaluation from consultants who actually know what they are doing.

            Agree, GP’s need to listen and actually care about their patients. When I was a kid there was a family doctor who knew us as a family. That’s far more effective. Now I see a different doctor each time. They have no clue who I am. In fairness I go very rarely, but even so. Clueless.

            GP’s are really gatekeepers. Get past the GP and the consultants appear far more competent. It might depend on the medical field though. I saw a truly rubbish dermatologist with my son but my recent personal experience I thought the consultant and surgeon were both excellent. Straight talkers, knowledgeable, ideal.

            Here’s something a little bit ‘out there’. Have you tried apple cider vinegar? It has a broad range of health benefits. It tastes truly vile though! Braggs is a good brand. I mix it with fresh lemon juice and water then knock it back. I actually feel a difference from taking it. I’m thinking it might help to cleanse your system from the meds you were taking. Look it up, see what you think. It certainly won’t harm.

            I’m glad I’m sounding more like me again. I think. Haha! Thank you Asp, it’s good to be back!

            Xx

          21. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your comment. I am finding that the consultants are actually the ones ‘directing’ the GPs in my case. Regardless of that, the GPs are the ones that ‘failed’.

            I am glad you are ‘back’. 🙂

          22. Joa says:

            TS, I wrote earlier that I see your mother as interdependent. I see you’ve taken this possibility into account. Ultimately HG will decide.

            And now, I will write to you, why I wrote that. Your relationship with your mom is very similar to mine. I, too, hesitate between mum Narcissus and interdependent mum, with an emphasis on the latter. For me it is more visible. And the second, I have a friend, who adores her father. For her and her sister, father is everything, the best and most beloved. No sisters man, can live up to the father. Even the husband, who has been in a relationship with her for over 30 years, with whom she lives and has children, is still less of her family than her father. Yes, the father is a lovely man, smart, funny. However, I have no doubts, that he is Narcissus and I have no doubts, why my friend is a dirty Empath, and that the main axis of this family is a mother, who is unnoticed and constantly criticized.

            Whatever the result, don’t force yourself to do anything. Remember, that the past years will not make up for you. You are an adult woman, and separating from your parents is a natural process, that allows us to live independently and prepare ourselves mentally for their death. This should not be distorted.
            (This state of affairs also applies to us and our children!).

            I’m glad it was a benign tumor. I know, what it means to dismiss the problem (I use this method! 🙂 ) and what the slight nerve in the back of the head is like while waiting for the biopsy result. I’ve been through this twice. I do not know how much your skin they had to cut out, but I had a cut on my breast about 6 cm long with 8 stitches and 12 years after the surgery, there is only a delicate white line, which I even like 🙂 The second scar is in a different place, smaller and fresher, but I like it too, it looks interesting, when I sunbathe, I like to stroke it 🙂

            I also remember my daughter breaking her collarbone (she fell off the couch drinking a bottle of milk, while I was washing the dishes). For two weeks I didn’t know anything about the fracture (there was a moment of crying, but she normally went to the nursery and danced in a band, hard art like all the women in our family 🙂 ). After two weeks, the fracture started to grow the periosteum, I felt this ball when I was dressing shes. First thought – tumor – I almost had a heart attack, while driving with her to the emergency room and to the hospital. And here’s a surprise – breaking 🙂 Fortunately, they didn’t break again, it got together well.

            TS, my friends, men are experts in personal questions, they are worse than women, they need to know everything 🙂 And they learn a lot, because my mouth is still open 😛 But with most women, I just don’t have common topics, apart from standard politeness and flagship theme – children.

            PS I don’t know, why you are suggesting apple cider vinegar, but be careful with it. In excess, it causes stomach ulcers, precipitates potassium, accelerates osteoporosis and destroys tooth enamel. And its healing or slimming properties are negligible.

            —————–

            Bubbles, yes, I also find, men much more interesting as conversation partners and have a better sense of humor + my 3 empaths pour warmth into my heart. For as long as I can remember, there has been me and a group of men, and it is still so today.
            Narcissus women – I wish they would stay away. They attack me privately, not professionally. I find it despicable, especially if this nonsense can reach my child.

            It’s funny you wrote me to be myself. Recently, I had to stand up to the chief executive, I refused to perform my duties, I made it clear that we have reached a limit that I will not cross, because it risks breaking public opinion about me and may have an impact on my child. I would like to add, that the media was in hot turmoil (peoples they wanted to attack him, so I was put on the front line and distracted attention). He told me: “You’re going to be fine. You just need to be yourself. ” He stopped pushing. I really liked, what he said, I knew immediately that he was 100% right and that was the best solution. I had to open up a bit more privately (as I see fit) and everything has quieted down… at least for now, because the fight for the “throne” is still going on. I will humbly say, that I saved the ass of many people by focusing everything on myself. Cowards.

            —————–

            Asp Emp – always check the doctors’ hands, educate yourself and look for solutions yourself. I, too, was misdiagnosed for almost 2 years. I was given drugs, that caused my disease to exacerbate (!), I lost a terrible weight and looked like a shadow, I felt terrible. Only my stubbornness and looking for the reasons on my own, led to the fact that further tests were done and finally the correct diagnosis was made. Well-chosen drugs made me regain my strength within 2 weeks and this has been the case for 8 years 🙂 I still follow all medical and electronic news in the field of my disease. I am happy to experiment with modern drugs and devices, if I can afford them. Nobody knows my body like I do. If you combine it with medical knowledge, you can be sure, even when the doctor is not sure (two years ago he told me to write a statement, that I take new drugs at my own risk, because they are not intended for this particular type of my disease – safety precaution of the manufacturer, heh). The effect is brilliant. I function and live like a healthy person. I don’t see the difference 🙂 I just have to remember a few extra things during the day, that’s it. Most people don’t even know I disease. Has been stabilized, so it is only a minor margin in my life.

            I’m glad you were well diagnosed!

            Health for you girls! Take care of yourself! 🙂
            And for HG too, of course 🙂

          23. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Leigh, sorry for the late reply, this thread doesn’t seem to send me notifications.

            I think you have the most difficult scenario to cope with. A child who is a narcissist. Isabelle might be able to support you on this. I think she has gone through similar and will no doubt have faced a similar internal battle.

            I’m sure HG will be able to suggest various methods of limiting any negative impact your daughter will have on you. I expect it’s a case of you either do it or you don’t but you can’t half do it. It might also be a case of short term and long term strategies in line with your daughter living at home then leaving home. Almost No Contact will feel far more realistic when you aren’t both under the same roof.

            We are all empaths but still very different. I think the best you can do is to take all the support and advice that you can, then think of what you view as being acceptable / workable and stick rigidly to that approach. There will be a reason you are struggling to implement HG’s suggested approach with your daughter. It might be the reason and not the approach itself that you are struggling with.

            Try to look after Leigh as well as everyone else, because Leigh is important too.

            Xx

          24. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello all,

            Just to let you know I received the outcome of my NDC on my mum and she is a LMR narcissist. Thank you to everyone who provided their thoughts and insight on narcissistic or narcissist.

            I’m very relaxed about the outcome, it doesn’t impact my day to day and it offers an explanation as to my relationship (or lack of) with her.

            Xx

          25. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I’m glad you finally have your answer. It will explain a lot.

            I see you say you are relaxed about the outcome, and you have had some time to prepare for it thankfully. I also see you say it doesn’t impact your day to day which I understand. At the same time, it is impactful to know you are also an ACON and many times you thought you did not deserve to offer an opinion on the basis you did not suffer as some of us have. Now you know, you were also a victim, and knowing your mother’s school will highlight how that may have affected you.

            I know it will take some time to absorb and you are in the best place for sharing if and when you ever feel like doing so.

            Sending love and hugs your way for whatever benefit they can give right now.

            Finally, you are not alone xox

          26. Joa says:

            Oops, TS, and yet.

            It doesn’t really change anything, does it?

            This is just a helpful tip, not a sentence of death.

          27. Leigh says:

            TS, this thread doesn’t send me notifications either. I just read this comment from below:
            https://narcsite.com/2022/02/02/why-cant-they-see-it-too-the-narcissists-facade-at-work-9/comment-page-1/#comment-431856

            I only saw it because of Joa’s comment about your mom.

            First things first, I’m sorry to hear about your mom but at least now you have an answer and you can go from there. I hate narcissism.

            As for my daughter, under suggestion from Mr. Tudor, I bought How to Handle a Parental Narcissist and just switched from Parental to Familial narcissist.
            Unfortunately she does live in my house still. I’ve been in a silent treatment since the beginning of May though I’m actually ok with that. Its gives me a respite period. She really is awful. She has no respect or gratitude for me and makes it a point to show me that as much as possible. When she’s mean like that, my guilt lessens. It erodes my emotional empathy for her 10 fold.

            I’ve thought about asking Isabelle since she is living through it as well. Although, as of right now, I’m leaning towards no contact. LMR is what my daughter is too. The facade flickers. Although I feel like its more off than on.

            How to Handle a Parental Narcissist may be a good thing for you. I thought it was incredibly helpful.

          28. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello Joa,

            Your comment made me chuckle because it’s so you haha!

            No, it doesn’t change anything. It gives me clarity and removes any guilt so it provides peace, which is valuable, but behaviour wise nothing changes. I was concerned at one point that if I found out she was a narcissist, then I might just wound on purpose, but I don’t even have the desire to bother doing that. I’ll continue dealing with her in a cognitive fashion instead.

            Xx

          29. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            Thank you, I know you were keeping everything crossed for me. You can uncross now, you must be getting cramp haha!

            LMR surprised me, but I totally understand now how HG arrived at that conclusion and I know he’s right. There were other examples I left off the NDC just because I didn’t have room, but those aspects would have fed more into LMR so HG got her anyway.

            The thought of my mum living with me as your daughter still lives with you, is something I find difficult even to imagine. In small doses I’m fine, I spent full days with her when my dad had his operation, still fine, but having her in my house full time would definitely impact me. You cope with an awful lot.

            You have nothing to feel guilty about. I know this won’t remove the guilt you feel about your daughter, but you have done everything humanly possible to hold it together for your kids. You only discovered narcissism and it’s impact very recently, you didn’t know about your husband, by the time you did, it was already too late for her. Absolutely nothing you could have done.

            I can imagine the silent treatments feeling like a break haha! The talking down to you, purposely being disrespectful is quite another thing. That’s hard, particularly with your husband to deal with too. It has to be taking a toll on you as well as your empathy. You need to put her rent up! Make it prohibitively expensive to stay at home!

            I’m sure Isabelle would offer wise counsel, given her own experience. No Contact has to be the answer, understanding the steps Isabelle went through to achieve that,I’m sure would be helpful, particularly as far as guilt is concerned. I recently listened to one of HG’s videos on guilt. ‘Guilt and Obligation.’ It’s an excellent video if you haven’t heard it yet.

            My method for dealing with my mum appears to work. The only reason it works though is because it’s genuine. I can behave impassively towards her because with her I’m genuinely impassive.

            If things change, if it was necessary to spend more time with her, I would definitely reach for ‘How to Deal With A Parental Narcissist’. As it stands currently, I feel I have things nicely balanced. I will bear it in mind though, thank you for the recommendation xx.

            Try to put yourself first Leigh. If not immediately, keep it in mind. Time is precious and no one knows how much of it they have. My health scare brought that home to me loud and clear.

            Xx

          30. Leigh says:

            Hi TS, luckily she’s rarely home. She’s mostly with her boyfriend or at work. After this last blow up with her, I wanted to throw her out. My husband is against it. Although I’m sure if push came to shove he would back me up because he can’t lose his primary source.

            When things like this happen, I feel like the universe is telling me to get out already. Which of course, is always on the table.

            I do remember Guilt & Obligation. I’ll definitely have to listen to that again.

            Yes. I haven’t known that long about narcissism and by the time I found out the cake was baked. Except, I knew something wasn’t right when she was a child. I saw the issue with control from very early on. There’s that pesky guilt creeping in, lol!

            I know what you mean when you say genuinely impassive. Its exactly how I am with my mom as well. I’m afraid that might be the best I can hope for with my daughter as well.

          31. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            That’s at least something that your daughter isn’t devaluing you all the time. I can see now how that becomes more manageable.

            I think the universe is telling you it’s ok to go. I know your husband doesn’t factor into any guilt you feel. So it’s very much a case of staying for your children, namely protecting your non narcissist daughter from the influence of her father and sister. I have forgotten her age I’m afraid. I wonder if it would be possible for you both to move out together? Rents must be extremely high where you are. I’m thinking two salaries better than one etc. Maybe I have it wrong in my mind, just trying to find a faster route out for you.

            You must be under constant stress at home. I like to think of you waking up in a place that is your own without that pressure weighing down on your mind. I really like to imagine that for you. If you can’t have that immediately I really hope that the idea is something you can focus on and aim for. I understand that timing has to be right in your own mind though. Xx

            Yes we sound similar in the way we view our mothers. A similar arrangement with your daughter is likely achievable and would facilitate you still remaining a figure in her life whilst being able to prioritise your own needs. You deserve to have the opportunity to do that.

            Xx

          32. Leigh says:

            TS, rent is astronomical where I am. The rent for a 1 bedroom would be more then my mortgage. My empath daughter is in her early twenties. I have considered moving out with her. Its definitely on the table and something we’ve talked about.

            Thank you for your kind words. Thank you for imagining me in a place of my own where’s there’s no pressure. It sounds devine!

            “If I can imagine it, I can achieve it.”

          33. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi Leigh,

            Yes, I can imagine rents are astronomical. It must be a great place to live but very expensive. I have never been to New York, I really wish I had now. It sounds crazy to have lived in the US and not to have visited NYC.

            Is there a commuter belt? Could you live further out and commute in to work by train? If renting, the beauty is it buys time for you to keep looking and then move on when you find the right place. The other option is to move state, uproot, pick a state where rents are cheap, sort the divorce and have a bit more to play with finances wise. You lose your job unless the company has offices elsewhere but in the right state you might not need the same salary. Again you get a job just to pay the rent and once there find a position similar to your current one.

            I can see what you are juggling with. Not easy. If leaving you feel like you need the security of your job at least. Most people need one stable aspect to their lives when they are going through so much change. There must be a way round it, likely a very long commute, at least at the start.

            Xx

          34. Asp Emp says:

            TS, good suggestions with several options as solutions. Should she decide to follow through, the spouse not earning enough to maintain the costs of managing (keeping) the house could enforce the need to sell it sooner rather than later. Having the one non-narcissist adult daughter as company and to assist with moving etc would really help her a lot.

            I trust that you are doing ok and feeling more grounded in your thinking? 🙂

          35. Leigh says:

            Hi TS, I’m in the suburbs of NYC. I live about 45 minutes away without traffic. LOL! There’s almost always traffic though. The closer you get to the city the more expensive the rents become. I may consider going further away from the city. I don’t think I could leave NY all together. I love it too much. I’m only about 20 minutes away from the ocean. Plus my daily commute is fantastic. I work 3.5 miles away and it takes me 9 minutes or less to get work. Plus now that I don’t have to worry about workplace narc showing up at my office anymore, its much more peaceful here. I also have a lot of autonomy. Where I am, there’s not a lot of traffic so I could go further out and drive in. Its something I’ve considered. Also, there’s also not a lot of mass transit to travel locally. However, if I wanted to travel into the city, I could.

            I love NYC. I haven’t been in since before COVID and I miss it immensely. My girls and I would go in at least 3 or 4 times a year.

            The dent it would put in my finances is something I have to consider also. The cost of a lawyer here is insane. I’m divorcing a narcissist so he won’t make it easy so I’ll definitely need a lawyer. I wish I could do it with just arbitration. It would save us both a boatload of cash. But I know he won’t make it easy. I’ve been throwing money into a savings account. A little bit here and there. Its always in the back of mind.

          36. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            I missed this comment and one above in response to my daughter so I’ll reply here 🙂

            HG eats fairies for breakfast?! He does? Do the wings not get caught in his teeth? They must taste like bacon. At least he chose the correct sauce. HP (brown sauce) is a far superior sauce to ketchup.

            I can’t remember where I saw the comment about HG learning what patterns in music provoke a response in the listener. I read it as referring to groups of notes that would create an emotional response. My estimation is that he is accomplished musically so could compose. As the narcissist he is, the composition might include elements he has acquired from other pieces of music, a little like character trait acquisition. He takes the trait but then expands it and amends it to fit his construct. Musically I suppose HG would recognise a piece of music as sad for example, he then analyses why it is perceived as sad and mimics a similar musical format. If he can’t play from feeling, he can apply musical elements cognitively.

            Similarly, if we think about listener exposure. How many people haven’t been exposed to the Harry Potter theme tune? The association to that music will be ‘magical’. Replicate similar elements and I suppose you get a ‘magical’ piece of music. It bugs me a bit if I’m honest. If you are going to write an emotional piece of music then you should feel the emotion and the music should be how that emotion feels to you. Similarly narcissist actors, that bugs me too. It feels very much like a Gucci bag from Chatuchak market.

            My daughter seems to be doing well. She is busy in school and socially she is busy, which helps a lot. She isn’t upset about it on a daily basis now but if she thought about him she would be and if she was hoovered I’m not sure that she could ignore it either. She definitely has him blocked still, so I’m hoping that any ET falls further and she isn’t tempted ‘just to see’. It’s unlikely she will run into him accidentally but not impossible.

            Once she has more time I’ll suggest she reads some of HG’s books. I need to re read Manipulated and Red Flag to make sure they are are suitable for her young years.

            Xx

          37. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS 🙂

            I think this thread got way too long and it’s getting harder to find responses and make replies.

            Yes, HG eats fairies for breakfast, and if I know HG, he’s likely to tear off their wings before gobbling them up greedily for his breakfast. HP Sauce is for connoisseurs <3 I use it occasionally x

            More interesting thoughts about HG and music. I wonder what composers think about when they are composing? They must be inspired, so then it comes down to how they are inspired or what inspires them. For HG it is possibly the emotional response of others, which is totally weird to me, but certainly 'scientific'. There is often a formulaic element to songwriting – if we think verses, choruses, etc. You'll find it in nearly every song and probably in many areas of creativity. That doesn't mean every Tom, Dick or Harry could come up with a tune that people would want to hear, so there's got to be something more and maybe HG's more scientific approach could lend itself to that, making the music as digestible as a morning fresh fairy with some HP sauce 🙂

            Oh yes, I forgot about the character trait acquisition and Ed Sheeran was recently in Court being accused of a little Magpie style thievery when it comes to other people's songs. He won his case, though there seems to be more of them being brought forward concerning famous artists and the possibility of them making use of someone else's talent to come up with their hit music/songs. It's a very difficult area to define, I think, when you could easily come up with a random combination of notes or chords that someone else had previously come up with or used. At the same time, I think questions may have been raised around Ed Sheeran before, so is he a narcissist? HG?

            We want the creation to be real, TS. We want the emotion surrounding it to be real. We don't want some manufactured formula akin to a Korean pop band presented to us – although my two daughters were devastated at the news of the BTS breakup, which apparently isn't a breakup now, but just a 'hiatus' (thank God, because who can take the drama?) Anyway, we do want to think our artists are coming from the heart because that's where we are feeling it. We want it to be genuine. Then we have the mimicry of the narcissist who makes it look like what it is meant to be on the surface, but scratch just below … no heart, no soul. How does it still impact us?

            It must be similar to how we experience the narcissist in the seduction period and an element of mirroring. We put our own interpretations on the music/song which creates meaning for us. The narcissist observes and knows what we want or how we can be reached so they create what is necessary to reach us. It never appears as false when we first become ensnared. In fact, it feels more real than anything ever felt before. It's how we are impaled on the devil's pitchfork.

            I'm glad to hear your daughter is doing better, though the pitfall of an imminent hoover remains … imminent if he finds a way around the fortress she has put in place. He has made her feel attractive and wanted, and perhaps been able to zone in on some of her vulnerabilities. As an empath she will have been responsive to that and so far is doing a good job of untangling herself. The seriousness of the matter I fear can't be imparted as well to young minds, minds that are determined to become independent and are striving to do that. So far it seems you have done a good job of being available and hearing her out, TS. She has taken steps to avoid him and thankfully sounds like she is busy right now, but summer has arrived and that likely ups the ante for contact.

            Finding suitable work from HG's vast amount of information is something to be considered and if she has been ensnared on social media, I would likely use that as an opening gamut, and probably a video related to the same. If the children are more inclined towards watching videos, and snippets of information provided in that context, a short video on that element of ensnarement might be good. I'm not sure the notion of narcissism is very digestible for teens as it is a complex topic easily dismissed in favour of raging hormones and the desire for independence. In that sense, I'm not sure if narcissism can be the starting point for understanding as opposed to the notion of 'predatory behaviour' and what that entails. What does a predator look like? How do they operate? Why is it important to keep them away?

            I think things need to be put in a certain context for teens to understand. As adults, and with plenty of experience under our belts, we will likely read and understand HG's work in a different way with an element of maturity added. Teens may not grasp the concept of narcissism so easily. I know at that age nothing would have deterred me except my own personal experience of what I was heading in to and how that was affecting me. Her heart may need to be broken. It will be a lesson in life that cannot be avoided and for which none of us had preparation. The most important thing is that you are there to hold her up when she needs it, and she will understand that not all boys are to be trusted and some will enjoy toying with her heart and her emotions, with no care as to how that is affecting her. She needs to be bold enough to say "I'm not going to let you treat me that way" and have the ability to walk away. We are constantly being tested in life to make the right response which will either make us stronger or weaker in that moment. It's unavoidable. It's also unavoidable as a parent to have to confront our children making their own decisions based on their budding independent natures.

            This is where I wish there was a way to keep us all safe from experiencing the ups and downs of life, and it's a parent's prerogative to keep their children safe. Unfortunately, we also need to let them test their own wings and hope we have loved them enough and taught them enough that they can fly when the time comes. Find some information of predatory behaviours, whether it's here or somewhere else, make her aware even of your own experience, tell her it's tough but she can get through it, utilise the trustworthy men in her life (brother/father/grandfather) to help her know which men are to be trusted and which are not, and keep as many boundaries in place as possible to prevent her from breaking her NC regime.

            We become 'background' noise eventually, but hopefully you will find ways for your awareness to become her awareness, and she will avoid the pitfalls inherent in narcissistic entanglements <3 xox

          38. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi Asp Emp,

            Thank you I’m doing well on the whole. It’s exam season so it’s stressful for me as you know. I’m keeping in mind what HG said to me in consultation. Some days I get a bit overwhelmed, can feel the stress rising into my chest, other days I seem to do better. I’m doggedly sticking to my gym routine because that does help to relieve the stress but self talk or relaxation techniques don’t work for me. I might end up going twice a day just for the next few weeks though my evenings are largely taken up by the role of revision buddy.

            I’ve put my mum on the shelf haha! She does it to me so why not?! Im not really thinking too much about the NDC result. I have it, I know, and I’ve kind of drawn a line under it. The past can’t be changed, parts of my own behaviours I might analyse over time but on the whole, for now, she’s shelved.

            Something did dawn on me though. When I arrived on the blog, the online narc had put me on the shelf. Once I got his NDC result, I blocked and purged, started the No Contact. It took a very long time for my ET to fall. It would do, I had just moved close to my mum and dad, I was spending more time with them than I had since leaving uni and starting work. Cross pollution was likely feeding my ET. The prolonged feeling of sadness I experienced due to my ET might well have been prevented had I not been interacting so much with my mum during the same time period.

            Whilst I’m able to deal with my mum, I do also need to recognise that when my ET is elevated I need to stay away. She won’t impact me directly but she will impact my ET level. It’s something I can be aware of now that I have the NDC result.

            How are you doing Asp Emp? What news?

            Xx

          39. Asp Emp says:

            TS, good to read that you are dong ok, apart from the exam period time. I am trying to work out why it makes you so stressed out about it though. Do your kids see your stress during this period, or do you keep it hidden?

            When we did revision at school, we’d ‘test’ each other outside prep times – basically that was a fixed time slot where it was manned by a prefect while we did our homework and / or revision – some prefects were boring as hell, others were good because they’d help us revise. Would such a ‘setting’ work during revision times for your kids, ie a revision club? Parents can take in turns?

            The shelf. It does have it’s uses 😉

            It’s so fascinating to finally realise what ET actually is, how it can more or less ‘take over’ at various points in our lives. What people may not realise is the various ‘points’ may derive from one central “unit” (it does anyhow) – when I suggest ‘unit’, it could be past related that had not quite been dealt with. Even though our emotions are usually based on core aspects of our brains, people may not consider the emotions to be one “brain” but is made of different ‘matter’ compared to what the brain matter consists of. I may be wrong to suggest that ET is past and present related, whereas LT is present and future related?

            I understand what you mean about staying away when you recognise your ET is elevated. You can still chat with your dad over the phone during these periods. Over time, I think you will find that your ET lowers gradually to the point where it does not get raised to a level it used to.

            I’m doing ok, thank you. News? Oh, yes, I went to the supermarket yesterday and bought food 🙂 Stay safe & try not get too stressed out RE: exam period 🙂 xx

          40. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            Thank you for explaining further, I can understand the city girl not wanting to be too far from the city. I’m the country girl and it’s similar for me.

            A short commute definitely has its advantages although sometimes it depends on the commute. I lived in Nottingham at one point. I had fallen in love with an apartment in a really old hall set in its own grounds. The windows were draughty the water pressure was non existent, I had to run around in the shower to get wet, but I loved it. The problem was that it was a long way out of the city, an hour’s drive to the office. Originally I discounted the apartment on that basis. I kept circling back to it though. I worried two hours in the car each day might be too much but actually, the drive itself was so pretty that by the time I got home, I had decompressed from the day and was ready to enjoy my evening. Similarly, I would organise my day in my mind on the way to work in the morning and was ready to hit the floor running as I walked in. It stopped work bleeding in to my free time, there was a definitive start and finish to my day.

            There can be advantages to a longer commute but I think it rests on loving the place you are coming home to. Maybe just widen the search area to see what’s out there. Areas that used to be a bit run down can change dramatically over a few years but still be underpriced 🙂 I love house hunting though, to me it’s enjoyable to imagine myself living in place a or b. I think that stems from my childhood. Getting in the car and going for a drive around with my dad telling me to ‘pick your house’ haha!

            You know, your husband might not be as difficult as you think. He doesn’t work, it’s in his best interests to split a larger pot rather than give it away to lawyers through being difficult. Yes divorce is a threat to control but so is being homeless when you are out of work. I’m not sure which threat the narcissist would see as greater. Likely the most immediate, but there might be a way to get him to focus on the practical. HG would be able to estimate which way your husband would be likely to go on that and if he could be manipulated into being less obstructive.

            I’m a worrier, I worry about all sorts but there have been numerous occasions where I have also worried unnecessarily. You might be playing scenarios through in your mind that actually wouldn’t happen. The more information you gather, the more control you have, the better you are able to plan and the worry is then targeted in specific areas rather than everything blending in to one huge insurmountable problem. Easier said than done sometimes I know! I found a lump in my breast and had already selected the shop in London where I was going to buy a wig if I needed chemo. Seriously, yes, I had.

            Thinking about it, I might not be the best person to make suggestions!! 😂

            Xx

          41. Leigh says:

            Ha! “I had to run around in the shower to get wet.” That made me chuckle.

            I agree that a longer commute can help you decompress before you get home. For 15 years I worked 20 miles from my home. Only the first 10 miles were on highway. The next 10 were all secondary roads and it was quite a pain to get to. I did appreciate that time I got to decompress.

            Now I have my own office, so often I will stop working but just hang there a little longer before I head home.

            My husband does work but its only part time. He only works 8 months out of the year and of those 8 months, only 4 are busy. The other 4 months he leaves at 10 and home by 2. He makes very little money. His whole life he has spent much more than he has earned. He was a heavy smoker, he likes to gamble and he’s a pothead.

            I hadn’t thought about him being concerned about losing all the money to the lawyers. I don’t know why I hadn’t considered that because he can be a tightwad. He doesn’t like spending money at all. Other than cigarettes, pot and gambling. LOL! I guess that serves his purposes. He’s quit smoking cigarettes so at least that helps. The goal for me is to over him the house and I keep my retirement accounts. He could sell it and keep all the proceeds. I would be ok with that because he has no retirement.

            LOL! You’re definitely the right person to make suggestions. You give me another view. I’m a worry wart too but I’m not a planner. I fly by the seat of my pants. I’ve taken a back seat in my whole life. I feel incredibly lucky that I’m in a pretty good position in life.

            I was reading your comment below about the trait detector. I agree that the trait detector is so useful. It paints the whole picture for us. Pride and vanity are pretty high in me too. Caregiver is my highest, with truthseeker and justice not too far behind. I just looked at it again the other day.

            Are you in school right now or is your anxiety about your children’s exams? I didn’t know you were in school. I must have missed something. I don’t know if this will help you but I’ve always viewed tests as a learning tool as well. Yes, they’re there to test your knowledge. But whatever you miss, just look at it as an opportunity to delve deeper and to ask yourself, why did I miss that. I loved all the quizzes Mr. Tudor used to give. I thought it was a fantastic tool because it forced me to look deeper whenever I got one wrong.

            I’m glad to hear your daughter is doing better. The one good thing she has is you by her side. Thats huge!

            And thank you TS. You really are a tremendous help.

          42. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi Asp,

            I would rather go into hospital and give birth than take any form of test or exam haha! There are lots of painful things I would choose over test taking! My kids know that I find the exam period stressful, I have been honest about it, but I conceal the full extent of it. Essentially it’s anxiety I think, but once the exams are over it disappears instantly, there’s no residual anxiety.

            I think I was closest to the B Grade scenario growing up. My mum loved to tell everyone my results, obviously, as I was her extension. It was the issuing of a praise that felt conditional. Couched as ‘just try your best’ but in reality if the top mark wasn’t achieved, there was no praise for trying, but we moved instantly to what did you do wrong? Why did that happen? Do you need a tutor? Define best. 4 hours a night? 6 hours? How much time constitutes the expected best? So it was subtle. I wasn’t punished as such, but the implication was “Fix it. Do better.” My fear of exams might be due to that, it might be an in built perfectionism, it might have been the school I attended, a strict teacher, it could be down to a combination of the above. I won’t blame my upbringing for my exam hatred but I might accept it probably didn’t help!

            My kids don’t work as hard as I did. I encourage revision, I suggest revision techniques and how much time should be spent revising in terms of when to start the process but I’m not super strict. Both kids tend to do better watching videos on each topic, then discussing and referring back to the text book so revision groups wouldn’t work as well. They’d likely see it as a social event, my son particularly!

            ET is an interesting subject I agree. I think empaths automatically think and react emotionally first. Then the logic comes second assuming logic is there. The first response will be emotional in my view. In fact I think normals and empaths are similar in this respect with empaths just experiencing a deeper emotional response. Empaths have emotional thinking all of the time so the go to response will be an emotional one first. I think when ET is low we then pause and consider the logical response. When ET is sky high then the logical response is either not considered or it doesn’t even arrive as an option.

            Your time suggestion is interesting. High ET would be based on past experience and fear of the future I think. Low ET likely present only. Psychopaths have no emotional empathy so they likely get the logical response or the impetuous response based on fury. They don’t feel fear, arguably because they don’t play forward. They deal in the moment. All their focus is within that moment. So if there’s a guy approaching armed with a gun, they will either shoot him or look for the escape route. They won’t think, what happens if he shoots me? I might die. I’ll never see my friends and family again. That just slows the response time. It’s illogical in that moment because fear doesn’t achieve anything, it doesn’t move you forward. The stock exchange, psychopathic traders won’t be the ones throwing up in the bathroom after a catastrophic day trading. They’ll go home and have dinner, watch tv and go in the following day, trade just as they did the previous day and not amend due to the previous days losses. That was yesterday, this is today. So for me LT has to be based in the present without baggage from the past or fear for the future. Psychopaths are likely the best example we have of pure LT.

            Adrenaline confuses me. If there is no fear I would expect low adrenaline which would be a disadvantage. Their adrenaline might be linked to excitement. They see the situation as exciting and get the adrenaline from that rather than fear perhaps. That might be where thrill seeking creeps in. Adrenaline and dopamine cocktail. I’ll stick with my Woo Woo I think.

            Haha! A supermarket trip. That good eh? You do the revision, I’ll do the shopping!

            Xx

          43. Asp Emp says:

            TS, do you think you can ‘feel’ your kids anxiety about their exams, as well as, your own anxiety added into the mix?

            Interesting to read your second paragraph. Yes, I can understand your use of the word ‘combination’. Have you explained this to your kids as to partly why it could be a contributing factor to the anxiety part from you?

            I would suggest that maybe there is “residual” anxiety – from your past, even when the exam period is over.

            It appears that maybe your kids have more of a visual learning style compared to the auditory learning style (both do better watching videos)? You can find out easily by the online version of ‘learning styles questionnaire’.

            ET. Because of what I have learned on KTN, I am more LT ‘led’ these days when I leave the house. I am ok until some I come across some twat who is directly being a twat towards me. Either my LT remains LT but with a moment of, ‘asserting my control’ 😉 , shall I say? But I would suggest that it is not necessarily ET ‘led’ if you can understand? But if they persist in being a “pest”, then, I am going to respond accordingly, or walk away. I find that my annoyance ‘threshold’ is far, far lower than it used to be. Maybe it is because my stress levels are far lower because I do not “permit” the stress to take over. It is a combination of understanding myself as an individual, the past, and what I know now. I used to have very high anxiety levels, only because it would have been half ET related to the past that I was carrying and half due to the LOCE I was in at that moment.

            “Empaths have emotional thinking all of the time so the go to response will be an emotional one first”- not necessarily. Yes, an addiction to narcissism is always present but it is how the empath ‘responds’ to it, hence the ET can either be pushed down by activating the LT, providing the empath understands what it is and when it happens.

            By repeating the LT ‘activation’ in regard to the similar LOCEs, the ET level does go down. Practice makes ALMOST perfect and that is acceptable, because the addiction to narcissism within people cannot be eradicated.

            So, Time and ET reduction – I know for a fact.

            “Psychopaths are likely the best example we have of pure LT.”- not necessarily. Did Ted Bundy have “pure” LT in the way HG is teaching us what LT is about? No. Putin? Not always, maybe in the past, sometimes he did. Overall, Putin (in one simple answer), no, because of what is happening in the world now. It is illogical thinking because he supposedly said, it is about land-grabbing. I’ve said it before. Putin and HG may have similar “labels” attached to them but, look at the differences in their behaviours they depict to the world that we are seeing.

            Revision and shopping? Hmmm, no, I won’t ‘trade’ with you on this one 🙂 x

          44. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Leigh,

            I’m glad my comment was food for thought. We can get so caught up in the detail of things sometimes, that we just can’t seem to find our way out. We need to know all of the outcomes before we make a move and sometimes those outcomes only make themselves known when we are three or four moves in.

            I get you wanting to forego the house to keep the pension accounts. I would see the pension as more important too. Similarly though people can be very quick to give away sizeable chunks of money when they are dealing with large numbers. House negotiations a prime example. You might be easily entitled to far more than you think. So don’t give it away too easily. You earned that house, you should at least get something out of it to help get you started elsewhere. You aren’t trying to skin anyone, but you need to have a small pot to get started.

            I’d sit down with a lawyer and spec out what you would be entitled to. A bare minimum scenario and a best case scenario. Then you have a firm idea of what is realistic in terms of a move and what isn’t. One or two sessions should give you concrete information and I think those fees are likely worth paying. Knowledge is power, this we know for a fact 🙂

            I can’t see how legally one person has to give up everything just so the other can sit on his hands. He chooses not to work full time. Maybe he needs to choose to work full time in the event that you both split.

            I do get the way you are looking at things and I also get why but something tells me you are overestimating what your husband would be awarded. In terms of his likely approach and moves he might make, HG has you covered. You might find you have to pay your husband far less than you ever imagined. Getting out might well be closer than you think.

            Find out for sure, protect yourself with the correct information, then you can move forward safely, you’ll find a way because you are resourceful. You have to be, no way you would still be in one piece otherwise given how many narcs have taken a bite of you. You’re a strong strong lady, now turn your attention to you, not them.

            Xx

          45. Leigh says:

            TS, I had posted a response but I guess it must have broke the rule or Mr. Tudor is still moderating it for some reason.

            There’s a definite possibility that my victim narc husband will be entitled to maintenance. I had a brief phone convo with lawyer and she told me thats a possibility. My narc husband has no pride. He even takes money from his disabled sister all the time. He has no conscience. If he could do that, he’ll have no problem asking for maintenance.

            Enough about me though. How are you? You never answered my question about school. Are you in school or is it your children’s exams you were nervous about?

          46. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey LET,

            Thank you for your reply and I’m sorry mine is late. This past week was exam week, enough said haha!

            Yes, the music thing angers me. Strange that I’m so very attached to music when I don’t read it or play myself, but I do have a strong attachment to certain songs I hear. I put a musical list together for HG a while ago. All musical, song writers, musicians and all of whom I estimated were empaths. I got a low score. That’s not to say they were narcissists, just not empaths. It still irritated me that people whose lyrics moved me, didn’t experience the same depth of emotion that I do. In many ways I suppose it doesn’t matter as long as the end result of the composition moves the audience. It does feel a bit like a cheat to me though. I want them to feel when they were writing it, how I feel when I was listening to it. I might ask HG if he’ll give me a few empath musicians next time I consult.

            I found a blog written by a female psychopath. Interestingly she wrote an article about music and her lack of attachment to it. The few personal comments we have had from HG fall in line with the article she wrote. It’s interesting also that she writes very similarly to the way that HG comments. His articles are different, but his comments sound very similar to her articles. I’m trying to work out what it is about the writing that feels similar. Empaths write differently. We are more wordy but it isn’t just that. There’s some kind of style we have. I don’t notice it, but I notice when it’s absent.

            My daughter is feisty, more feisty than me although, I have mellowed from my younger years so maybe like for like we aren’t too dissimilar. I view myself as a strong character but I think she has the edge on me. Good, I think girls need to be more savvy today than they did when I was her age.

            In some ways this brush with a narcissist is a good thing. It opens her eyes to who is out there. She now has awareness, more than we had. Bit by bit I’ll use HG’s work to weaponise her. She will understand red flags over the coming months and years so that when she does emerge onto the dating scene, the grown up dating scene, she’ll be ready. Much of the narcissist’s capabilities come from flying under the radar. Push them out into the light and they have far less purchase. If we had been weaponised to begin with, we wouldn’t have been such easy prey. The next generation of empaths is perhaps where HG’s real legacy lies. The more he forges forwards the more young empaths will be protected. I like that idea.

            Pride, agree “No one is treating me like that.” I am coming at it from the pride angle as far as her online narc is concerned and I think she is starting to bite. She is very tempted to call him out on his behaviour, that will be her weak spot, the desire to let him know she sees him now for exactly who he is. I’m still reinforcing how much of a fool’s errand that is, understandable yes, but pointless.

            I’m so glad this exam week is over. I now have an empath friend who has supported me greatly this week. I actually confided for once and felt better for it. Wonders will never cease haha!

            Xx

          47. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi Leigh,

            This thread is strange all round. I actually got the notification for your last message but hadn’t been receiving them prior to that. Your original message is likely in moderation, I have one to LET in moderation currently and I’m hoping I haven’t missed any other replies. I read top to bottom the other day and I don’t think so.

            That’s a pain with your husband and maintenance. It seems very unfair that you should have to support him through your marriage and again if you were to divorce. No common sense sometimes with the law. Yes, I have no doubt that if he can get his hands on something, then he will. That will need to be factored in.

            Sorry I forgot about your exam question. It’s my son’s exams that send me haywire. We’re just coming to the stage where next year the results will count. Personally I would describe myself as exam phobic. I’m equally as bad with my son taking exams as I am if I had to take them, a little less so with my daughter. It’s the lack of control element that makes it worse. If they were my exams I could just put more work in, not quite the same with him. He is lazy academically, still a real boy, up to mischief, not taking it seriously. So he is never adequately prepared and it drives me half crazy.

            The odd thing is, once the exams are over, I never worry about the results. So it’s the exams themselves that scare me. I remember going into the kids’ elementary school one day in the US. My kids must have been 7&8. They had all these posters up ‘Rock the Test’ and my kids had to take sweets in for the bigger kids taking the test. I swear to god I thought I was going to pass out. I shot out of there! I recognise it’s ridiculous, truly ridiculous but then I suppose many phobias are. OCD is ridiculous too unless you have OCD, then it’s all consuming. I have 4 years now back to back of big exams because my kids are only a year apart. Honestly, I think if my son knuckles down this year I’ll be a bit better, not great but better. If not, I’ll be a wreck next summer.

            I have an empath friend who helped calm me down last week during my son’s exams. He’ll need to be on form next year, all I’m going to say haha!

            Xx

          48. Leigh says:

            TS, neither one of my kids were academically inclined either. At some point I had to switch my focus. I didn’t want to force them to do something they didn’t want and then possibly they’d be unhappy with their life choices. I decided to help them find a career that brought them joy. I didn’t put pressure on them that they had to make a lot of money to be successful. Now they are both doing something they love. Well, narc daughter thinks she loves it. It fills the prime aims for now. She even gathers oodles of fuel from her career choice. My empath daughter works in Manhattan and is kicking ass! Both careers required school but not traditional college. They are both technical careers.

            On the other hand too, we don’t always know what we want at a young age. I fell into Human Resources and I absolutely love it. Its the perfect match for me. I get the best of both worlds, I get to be the police and help too. Lol!

            Anyway, to make a long story short. (Although, it may be too late for that, lol.) Maybe shift your focus a little bit too. Maybe look at exams as a way to figure out where his strengths and weaknesses lie and then go from there. I think exams can be a great tool too.

            I’m sure they will be both be better than fine since they have such a thoughtful and caring Mama!

            Hope your daughter is still doing ok.

          49. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi Leigh,

            Thank you for your comment, I found it really encouraging. You have it right, it’s concern for their future that scares me. I see the academic route as the be all and end all but there are so many other routes available when they are older. Once they get past the first set of exams (tested on 9 subjects) they then get to choose three subjects to specialise in for the next set. I don’t see either child having a problem with the chosen three subjects. They aren’t all rounders, they will both prefer specialising. We just need to get to that point.

            They have to choose their own route, and it might not be the most direct route but as long as they end up doing a job they enjoy and that job can pay the bills, then I’ll be content.

            I ended up going a completely different direction than I ever thought I’d go, I just landed on my feet the whole way along though and I did have the academics to get me through the door. I was lucky more than anything. Not everyone gets to be lucky.

            Usually, I don’t wish for a crystal ball to see the future. In this case, I confess I really would like to look into the future and see them both safe and happy.

            Xx

          50. Leigh says:

            TS, I know what you mean about having a crystal ball to see if they’re happy and safe. The best we can do is give them the tools and guidance to make sound decision and be there for them when they aren’t sure. I also let them know its ok if they make a mistake. We learn from our mistakes. Its also OK to change our mind. Both of my children’s careers are specialized but they have some options within their fields.

            I’m glad you found my comment encouraging. You’re always so helpful to me and I’m glad I can reciprocate.

      3. Another Cat says:

        Truthseeker, I can’t seem to find reply buttons on appropriate spaces. I read about doubts and dark feelings in this thread, hoping you find release.

        After lots of nausea and worry, not yet budgeted an Empath detector test, this philosophical test gave me loooong relief:

        If you have ever sat alone, worrying about maybe being a Narcissist, then you are NOT one.

        Because that worrying did not give you fuel (A narcissist doesn’t put energy on nonfuelling activities). You were all alone in that room thinking to yourself. No audience, not conversing online with anyone, not on the phone, just pondering on your own.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Another Cat,

          Thank you for that and for the added explanation about the fuel part of things. I hadn’t thought of it in that way before.

          I lost the plot a bit of late, I took the detectors a couple of years ago and HG confirmed that I am part of the empath group.

          I recently started questioning that too though. Did I con the tests and so on? I started doubting everything, mostly myself and went running off in all different directions.

          I’m calm now haha. Logic is again running the show. I do appreciate your comment, it made perfect sense and I was able to look at it and think, no, that’s not me, it’s not about fuel, it’s about me being self critical.

          I don’t like blaming things on my ET, it feels like a blame shift. This time I’m forced to admit, my ET was up and I went a bit nuts!

          Thank you for your help Another Cat.

          Xx

          1. Leigh says:

            “I don’t like blaming things on my ET, it feels like a blame shift”

            Fucking A! I feel the exact same way. It almost feels like I’m giving myself an excuse. Like I’m saying, “I’m acting like this because my ET is high.” I can’t do that though. I have to recognize when my ET is high and then drill down to the logic.

            Your situation was very different this time though. Logic gets thrown out the window when there’s a health scare going on.

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Leigh,

            I think ET is likely personal to the individual and the way we view it is likely also personal. It’s interesting that you view it similarly. I think you’re right. The important thing is to know that it’s there, recognise that it’s going up, then try to hold on to the logic.

            Having this place, where people experience and understand a similar cloudiness themselves is a big support.

            I think the fact that this time it was to do with health did impact me differently. I think I was trying to tackle a few things at the same time though too and in future I’ll try to separate issues out rather than lumping them together. Compartmentalising is maybe not always a bad thing!

            Xx

          3. Another Cat says:

            TS
            Oh, and so happy it was benign! No wonder ET is haywire when a person has a healthscare like this one. Probably goes for Normals and some Narcissists as well. All people, I gather.

          4. JB says:

            TS,

            I’m glad you have some answers. Hopefully knowing one way or the other helps xx

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey JB,

            Thank you, I think knowing does help. It has settled me and removed any guilt I had at the way I dealt with my mum. I know she wanted a closer relationship particularly once I became an adult. I was unwilling to build on or improve the relationship though. I was unwilling to spend time with her just as mother and daughter and that wasn’t going to change. Similarly though, there was an element of guilt associated with that choice. A niggle. I wondered if I would feel more guilt after she was gone, experience regret, but again, I still couldn’t bring myself to change my behaviour towards her. So the outcome has given me peace. I’m not a bad daughter at all, I’m just a defensive one.

            There is no need for me to change or amend anything, I can continue on as before, just without the guilt.

            Your suggestion of the list prompted me to further review and analyse, which in turn further prepared me for the outcome, so thank you for that, I really appreciate the time you spent with me JB.

            Xx

          6. Truthseeker6@57 says:

            Another Cat,

            I only just saw your message today. Thank you, me too! Yes, it sent me haywire haha, I’m all settled again now though, my erratic behaviour is sitting within its normal parameters!

            Xx

          7. Another Cat says:

            About today, Truthseeker, from me, reply button seeker, I read about your NDC result of your mother and here is another thing I can’t find, the right words. ❤️❤️❤️

          8. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for sharing the result of NDC. I have no doubt that it gives you ‘closure’ to a degree and now that you know enough about narcissists, you have gained the knowledge. I am sure it also makes sense to you now to why she behaved that way when you were a child. I am very sure that you will now enjoy gift shopping when it comes to her 😉 Maybe HG’s ‘Decipher’? (so she can understand what she means when she says things) 😉 At the same time, I am sorry that it is what it is. xx

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Another Cat,

            Ohhh thank you for your message. I’m ok with it, truly x. If that changes though, I can’t think of a more supportive group of people to talk things through with, or a more badass narcissist to advise me.

            Xx

          10. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp,

            Yes, it does provide closure. My reaction was very much, “Well that explains that then.” I think it was more a case of me questioning my own behaviour towards her, (which would be described as cold) as opposed to really questioning hers. I knew I had my reasons in my own mind, I just wasn’t sure that those reasons were valid enough. Now I’m able to say that they were.

            In terms of presents, I was thinking of getting her a little stage haha!

            Xx

          11. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey LET x

            It is bizarre isn’t it? I have tried to keep a respectful distance from ACON conversations and find out I’m one myself. I do understand why HG has placed her in that school and what that means, but I still don’t see myself as a victim. I see her behaviour a bit like ‘things my mum did’ which is why I did as I did. My dad’s influence was likely far stronger. Perhaps I just focussed on him and perceived her as strange. There she goes again, losing her temper and jumping up and down. I don’t think I really took it in, I just saw temper as weakness, it didn’t scare me.

            I’ve thought more about my grandma of late. I spent a lot of time with my grandma. My mum tolerated her because she needed her help, my grandma tolerated my mum because she loved me and my dad. I’m very similar to my grandma. My grandma didn’t take any shit but I never once saw her lose her cool with my mum. I think my approach with my mum might well have been learned from her.

            Thank you for your support LET, I’m glad you are here.

            Xx

          12. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS 🙂

            I accept you don’t see yourself as a victim. You developed an awareness around your mother’s behaviour at a very young age where your self defense mechanism (probably related to you empathic nature) kicked in. That has been a saving grace in your circumstances. I think having a CoD element to my nature is what left me torn up on so many occasions and in an impossible situation in terms of being able to distance myself the way you were able to do. That’s just a little reflection of my own on what you have said xox

            Thankfully you father was a strong empathic presence in your life and helped to steady the ship and keep it on course for the most part, with your grandma’s help it seems. There is a lot of tolerance that goes on in family relationships at times in order for people to get along. Not feeding into your mother’s drama may have been one way to keep things on more of an even keel and it seems you did learn something from that. You have had a couple of strong empathic family members to help benefit you in the circumstances. Kudos to them for their love and support <3

            I'm very glad you are here, too, TS and happy you finally have your answer xox

          13. JB says:

            TS,

            I’m so glad knowing has enabled you to lose the feeling of guilt. That’s massive, not having guilt gnawing away at you. And now you don’t have the ‘Is she/isn’t she?’ question niggling away at the back of your mind either, which must also take a weight off. I guess it’s true that knowledge is power! I may have to consider doing one on my dad at some point.

            Just wracking my brains about a comment you made to me – you mentioned a list that I had suggested and thanked me for doing so – which list were you referring to? My memory is being a bit of a pain in the arse recently (I blame my hormones!) so I’m sorry to have to ask, but I just can’t recall at all! Xx

          14. Joa says:

            TS, of course not a bad thing! I always divide into compartments. Urgent cases, cases of medium importance, cases for later, nonsense, cases of urgent importance “suspended indefinitely”. Also sections in life, memories. I sort, arrange and sometimes change. People, events and thoughts are pinned to a timeline, I make circles, separate them with low and high walls.

            I also have “black holes”, closed areas, that I sometimes dig somewhere further away so they won’t get in the way. Sometimes I open those stinking boxes.

            Also, the emotional thinking, that you are so stubbornly combating is not a bad thing.

            I love flying! I love it! But logic always has to tighten a bit, a drag you down on the twines 🙂 Sometimes, when it pulls hard, it hurts to fall, ha ha ha 🙂

            I don’t like falls. But… thanks to them, I can soar high again 🙂

          15. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hi JB,

            The recent threads have been really long. I was having a conversation about my mum across a few threads at the time, I can’t remember for the life of me where the bulk of the conversation was held but a commenter suggested to me that I should write out a full list of all of my mum’s behaviours so that I could see things more objectively. I did this and it did help. Was that not you JB? My apologies for getting it mixed up in my head!
            I need to go back through the threads!

            Xx

          16. JB says:

            TS,

            No, I’m pretty sure that wasn’t me. It’s a great suggestion though, and I am glad it proved useful xx

          17. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            There are so many variables for us all. The empath schools and cadres, trait strength, interveners, friends, family dynamics etc. Then you have the narcissist, school, cadres, manipulative repertoire, influence of the romantic partner of the parental narcissist, working or not working, time spent with child, time spent one to one with the child.
            Circumstances that on the face of it might appear similar might actually be very different.

            I’m not sure really what comes first, the empath schools and cadres thus a tendency to adapt and react a certain way, or the adapting that gives rise to the empath schools and cadres. Maybe the two parts evolve together.

            I have anger as my weakest narcissistic trait. I feel it, I feel it very quickly, I just don’t show anger. That might be inbuilt, or due to my relationship with my mum, adapting not to react, that might have resulted in a low anger trait. I actually adapted to win, I knew she wanted the reaction just not why she wanted it. I wanted to win because I was angry haha!

            Adaptations work in one ‘climate’ but not in all. So for every upside there will be a down. Not confiding was productive when dealing with my mum, it likely also hinders ensnarement but it also keeps me distant, at arms length, unsupported. I win on the one hand, lose on the other. In actual fact I do confide quite a lot comparatively, I just don’t confide information that I feel could be used against me at a future point.

            I think it’s really difficult to know exactly what drives our behaviour 100% of the time. I think we have a tendency to react one way or the other, but a different variable and we might behave out of character. Our behaviours could likely be estimated 80% of the time just by understanding our various schools and cadres but you have to love that rogue 20% !

            Xx

          18. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I’m looking forward to HG’s further breakdown around the empath Schools and Cadres, perhaps how we are formed, and I was very interested to see HG’s response to the question around how Super and CoD can become combined – I think the answer being the CoD may initially be on their way to becoming a narcissist and switches tracks adding a Super element to their makeup.

            All my empath traits are virtually equivalent and I discovered on revisiting mine that the ‘love devotee’ trait was one of my weakest (all being between 8-12% or so). I think justice and truthseeking were my strongest. I scored similarly on my narc traits with pride being the strongest (under 20%).

            I can see how on one account you win and on another you lose when you describe it the way you do when it comes to distancing yourself to prevent ensnarement or someone using your vulnerability against you. You have been cautious from a young age and maybe that is why your trait for anger is low as you’ve managed to avoid your anger being triggered for the most part. Speculation, TS x

            There is no doubt a ‘rogue’ element to our nature and behaviours depending on the circumstances which can’t be factored in. HG has done a good job of discovering and describing the basis for at least 80% of what drives us, I think 🙂

          19. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Me too. I’m really looking forward to the new empath material. I thought about this the other day. HG is now my down time. I rarely watch tv these days. Instead I enjoy the videos, I discuss things here, or I ponder and dabble in research to do with empathy and psychopathy. I still do the social thing, love the gym and the people in it but alone time goes to HG’s creations. I love the whole learning experience. No exams either, no tut tut if I get something wrong.

            The TDC is really interesting. I’m so glad I took the various detectors. I think people take the EDC because they are concerned they are the narcissist or they want to confirm that they do belong to the empath group. I imagine fewer take the TDC and in many ways the TDC is more valuable in terms of future protection.

            My Empathic traits were quite evenly distributed. A tiny bit of variance allowing Truthseeker and Justice a few extra percentage points.

            The narcissistic traits had more variance, low anger and low argumentativeness funded most of the uptick In Pride and Vanity. That makes total sense to me and I would fully agree with the trait strength across both empathic and narcissistic categories. I’m kind of an all rounder in empathy but I have narcissistic traits that definitely light up on a regular basis and those did show up higher. To get that accuracy shows a huge depth of understanding on HG’s part. To estimate how I would react to a variety of situations 80% of the time I think would be impressive. I would estimate that the detectors would facilitate an 80% equivalent.

            The rogue 20% makes us human. If asked to explain why we acted a certain way in specific situations, I don’t think we could explain that ourselves sometimes! We might never act that way again, anomalies that have relevance at that point in time where the similar variables never again combine in that same order. Or, even, “I just wasn’t myself, it was out of character for me.”

            I like the rogue 20%. A cousin of the indestructible 5%. Those people who are interviewed at age 99 holding a pint of Guinness with a fag (cigarette) on. Haha! No rhyme nor reason to it, just, anomalies.

            It wouldn’t do to be predictable all of the time now would it? ( Pride. Vanity. Defiance.) 😎

            Xx

          20. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I had to laugh at your ‘anomalies’ example 😛

            There’s always one that breaks the mold and goes against everything we’ve been told.

            I love anomalies. They’re like the rebels of the scientific universe that states 2+2=4.

            Drink and smoke and you will die young. Whaaat? says the 99yr old lifelong drinker and smoker. Take that Universe. Sometimes defiance pays off, it’s true.

            Definitely wouldn’t do to be predictable all the time. An element of unpredictability is fun. I used to take my kids on what I called a “Scooby Doo Magical Mystery Tour” sometimes when they were little where they did not know where we were going (in a sense neither did I until I made up my mind) and they would love the adventure or mystery of going somewhere, not knowing where, and excitement of getting there. Those are some of our precious memories from when they were growing up <3 xox

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hi Asp Emp

          Thank you for your reply. You had me laughing with your leaving the house armed with LT until you run into a twat. Hahaha!

          Yes, I think you have worked hard to practice LT and incorporate it into your daily life. I am happy that you feel far more in control these days when met with a LOCE in the present. I imagine the approach feels more structured, calmer and replaces anxiety with a feeling of being in control of yourself within a variety of environments. I can see the benefit of LT over ET in this sense.

          Do you think ET relates just to the addiction to narcissism? I didn’t interpret it that way so perhaps I’m missing a trick. I would say that my ET can shoot up when under stress, nothing to do with being near a narcissist. Being near a narcissist would make it worse, but I don’t think my ET is solely linked to an addiction to narcissists. I don’t like the sensation of my ET being too high. I find that debilitating. I like my ET to be kept at a manageable level, still emotionally led but not blinded by emotion and driven to use flawed logic.

          I do think emotions can mislead and result in poor decision making. Ensnarement is a perfect example of a situation where the addiction leads to heightened ET and the application of flawed logic. Outside of ensnarement though I think I always have a degree of ET.

          If the definition of ET is the application of flawed logic as a result of heightened Emotional Thinking driven by the addiction to the narcissist, then I’m all for the application of LT.

          What I’m less wedded to is the application of Logical Thinking all of the time. I’m still an intuitive person, I’m still emotionally led and outside of narcissism I’m comfortable with that. Part of that might be my environment, positive past experiences and so on. I’m unwilling to switch to a logic led approach all of the time with all people if that makes sense? I can however see the advantage of being able to access LT as and when a situation requires it.

          I see what you mean as regards Bundy. I had the successful psychopath in mind when I was writing. Psychopath I think is a generalisation, too broad a term as stands currently. You and I have said before that HG doesn’t fit the profile as far as Hare’s psychopath goes. He does fit the profile of the successful psychopath though. Lower impulsivity, high conscientiousness etc. In fact I’d be tempted to say that HG’s impulsivity might be lower than mine. I think he might experience impulsive triggers more often but has a tighter control of them. The Hare psychopath, the Bundy type I would expect to have high impulsivity and low control over that impulsivity.

          Putin is a tricky one. From his side he is being logical in his moves. His timing was right, post Covid, weak US President, European in fighting etc. His logical thought underestimated the sheer will and grit of the Ukrainian people. That likely wouldn’t compute. Zelensky is a worthy opponent in terms of his ability to generate support for the cause. No wonder Boris wants to associate with him.

          I can see LT in Putin. I don’t agree with him but I see LT. I do think though that he suffers the downside of his psychopathy. Paranoia, grandiosity, impulsivity to a degree etc. in this sense I agree with you Putin isn’t operating with a pure LT either.

          No, I haven’t explained my exam anxiety to my kids in any detail. I wouldn’t have mentioned it at all other than the fact that my daughter was getting very nervous a year or so ago. I brought it up then to demonstrate that I understood how she felt, even then I didn’t go into detail. I explained that preparation is key, prepare fully and there is no need to be nervous. That seemed to do the trick. Neither child suffers with exam anxiety, just me haha!

          Yes both are visual learners, my son is part visual part kinaesthetic. My daughter just visual.

          I have wandered a little in this comment, hopefully you follow my general gist. I’m brain dead from all the science revision!

          Xx

  6. A Victor says:

    TS,

    Yes, or at least known that we could take control of our lives. I didn’t even have a clue that I could or should expect anything from my husband. I had no understanding of having any rights.

    I think we ourselves and others can sometimes expect us to progress at a rate, be it faster or slower, than is expected. I have worked very hard at fast-tracking this learning, I’m not getting any younger and the world’s not getting any more stable. So I step out despite my fear sometimes, and learn some more.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      AV,

      Yes, I think I’m quite tough on myself in general when learning something new. Impatient. I’m the same across the board, even at the gym I have to be reigned in so I don’t injure myself by doing too much too soon.

      I hate evaluation, I hate the feeling of being evaluated but actually, the evaluation and criticism comes from me, not from the outside. Give me a time frame or a target and I have to beat it. So in terms of recovery, I was very frustrated with myself along the way. The problem here is, you can’t put a time on recovery. If a person has an addiction, technically there isn’t even a finite end point. It’s an ongoing process that is very different for different people.

      Being ready to get back out there, likely looks different to different people but for me there was definitely a tipping point where all of a sudden I realised I was content again, accepting of my lot and therefore far less susceptible to being caught again.

      That said, I went to a dance class tonight and met a girl who is from the area where I grew up. We chatted after class and I’m meeting her for a bite to eat and drinks on Wednesday. I’m looking forward to it, we share the same sense of humour, two fish out of water in a way. Then I thought, “Met her on Monday, drinks on Wednesday, hmmm, good job she isn’t a guy!”

      Xx

  7. Asp Emp says:

    “People understand me so poorly that they don’t even understand my complaint about them not understanding me” Soren Kierkegaard

    Perceptions.

    1. Another Cat says:

      Funny you should mention it Asp Emp. I have been through the following a couple of times in life:

      I suggest something. The other person says “No no no. It was like this instead:”
      Then they say the same thing I said, sometimes even using the same words I did.

      Me: “So did x go to y?”

      They: “No no no, Cat! Rather, x went to y!”

      Maybe they have a hearing problem, or I speak quietly. Or it’s an empath thing.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        AnotherCat, thank you for your response. That made me laugh “maybe they have a hearing problem” – I totally ‘get’ that, despite my “hearing problem”, I used to have the thought of ie ‘god, they’re deaf, or fick’. Now, I realise it’s a perception ‘thing’, and / or gas-lighting. Yes, the ‘word salads’, twisting what you say and then “going back” to what you initially said. The mind boggles! There are times when I have said “That is what I meant in the first place”, or “That is what I said” (challenge ‘mode’ – no wonder they had a “problem” with me). LOL. It’s instinctual, the ‘provoking’ in order to achieve fuel by initially ‘confusing’ (word salad ‘roundabout’ via asserting control) you then observing you as you start to ‘bubble’ with annoyance, or cry with frustration (extraction of fuel). And they get ‘off’ on it!

        I know exactly what you mean “or it’s an empath thing” – the ‘in-built’ “system”, it’s so good to now finally understand what it actually is and how powerful it can be when we know how to use it (just for the hell of it, the ‘smiling assassin’, smirk, LOL) 😉

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Asp,

      Hey, you ok?

      Xx

      1. Asp Emp says:

        I’m fine, thanks for asking, TS. I just liked the quote.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Good, just making sure Asp Emp x

          I feel that way sometimes too, It’s one of the reasons I don’t bother confiding, a lot of the time people don’t get my point anyway! I find normals frustrating in this sense, narcs will pretend they understand only if it serves their purpose and empaths are few and far between. I’m a bit more philosophical about it these days. My thoughts are my thoughts, explaining them isn’t always necessary or even beneficial.

          Xx

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you TS. Since my ‘learning’ on here, I have noticed that I am ‘observing’ others more when I communicate with them in person ie in shops and it is interesting to notice how they communicate back can give indications. I do find myself wondering what I am dealing with, either way, I am more observant and I get satisfaction at times 🙂

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp

            The Virtues Of Keeping Your Mouth Shut!

            There’s a lot to be said for just taking your time and not diving in when you first meet someone most definitely. I’ve seen some horrendous behaviour from people in shops, customers and assistants alike.

            HG returned my Show Me The Empath list yesterday. I am no better at spotting famous empaths than I am famous narcs! However, what I am good at is spotting and responding to poor behaviour. Poor behaviour is poor behaviour and really, it doesn’t matter if that behaviour originates from narc, normal or empath, it’s still poor behaviour, and I’m well within my rights to react or walk away when I see it. Deliberating too much about whether the individual is a narc or not in some ways only serves to slow my reactions down. I think there’s a balance that we need to find.

            Something that is unacceptable to me, might not be unacceptable to someone else and that’s fine, I’m not the someone else. I can only do what is right for me and make my call within the parameters of behaviour that I find acceptable or unacceptable. I accept that I’m not going to be correct on my assessment every single time, but I’m at least going to be true to myself and my values and actually, I think I’m ok with that.

            Xx

          3. A Victor says:

            Being true to myself and my values has not been a problem for me, when I knew what they were. I have no CoD, perhaps that helps. Good comment TS.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            TS, sorry I did not see your comment previously as it did not come up on my notifications. RE: your last paragraph, I agree, I would suggest that is similar to my own mindset. Sometimes it is only through recognising (and ‘living’) through ‘trials and errors’ as part of the learning of life. I would rather be the person I am today, compared to where I had ‘been’ for so long.

            What I am thankful for, though, is having the time to process what I needed to. Now that Spring is on it’s way, it is almost like a new ‘start’. I suppose when it reaches the point of being ‘comfortable’ within yourself and not knowing exactly what the future holds, at the same time, having gained the wisdom to be able to walk the path of the unknown without fear.

            Thank you for sharing your views with me, TS 🙂

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            Thank you 😊

            I think traditionally I have been true to my self. Then at times on the blog, I read myself back as being less forgiving than most, or, less empathic I suppose. I don’t really give much benefit of the doubt to people generally. I don’t necessarily mean people here on the blog, just people in general. I’ve seen that as a bit of a fault, but I think I’m at the point now where I just think, it’s the way I’m built so I should accept it and work with it rather than thinking I ought to be someone I’m not.

            Xx

          6. NarcAngel says:

            TS
            I agree with you in general on this. In some cases it is beneficial to know exactly what/who you are dealing with (workplace, divorce proceedings, etc), but for the most part I am unconcerned with looking for or nailing down the specifics. As you say – poor behaviour is poor behaviour. Once you encounter it and determine there is a pattern affecting you adversely, you remove yourself or limit your interaction as much as possible regardless the label (narc, normal, empath). I’ve been treated worse by some empaths than narcissists haha.

            I read people saying they have become jaded or untrusting and are afraid to get back out into the world again. Understandable, but very sad that a previous experience could continue victimizing one in this way. We are meant to live our lives, and that may mean we will encounter others who will at the very least disappoint us, and at the worst attempt to, or take advantage of us as we once were. The difference now (for those who have found their way here) is that we have the knowledge, tools, and support to make a correction if needed. My hope is that people will return to living fully while honouring their intuition. To exercise caution when they encounter dismissiveness and disrespect no matter who delivers it. Narcissists have to believe they own us until one of us dies. We don’t have to.

          7. Asp Emp says:

            NA, thank you for writing that comment. It was good to read.

          8. A Victor says:

            I understand this ongoing victimization. Getting out from under it is a process and the process takes longer for some than others. There could be some variation due to the length and depth of the ensnarement, the type and number of narcissist(s), the type of empath, how far they are in their knowledge/growth process etc. Each person will be different.

            It is nice to have a safe place to express our fears, get some support, encouragement, information, understanding. The goal is to not need HG or the blog at some point, not that we won’t come because we want to be here sometimes, but to not need them, to really live, is my goal. Until I get to that point, the fear is real.

            I don’t know what I can trust, I don’t trust my own intuition, it has failed me more than not to date. I agree with you that this is very sad. I suppose people can look at me as immature, damaged, broken, jaded, untrusting, afraid, but I don’t see myself that way, I see myself as a person who has lived in the dark but is being enlightened. Because of that enlightenment, I am headed toward success, even if I never have another romance, I will be a better person for having been here. I’m already a better person for it.

            At this time, I don’t resent or reject my fear, I allow it to spur me on to better things, I trust the day will come when I may still have that fear, but I will have built enough confidence and courage to overcome it and take steps out of my comfort zone toward a fuller life. In the meantime, I will remember that sometimes the expression of fear is a way of releasing it, and the having of it can be a motivator. Therefore, it isn’t necessarily only a sad thing.

            I understand that your comment was not aimed at anyone, or at least not to my knowledge, and certainly not personal to me. I just wanted to offer another view.

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:

            NA,

            It’s funny you should draw the line between my comment and people feeling nervous about moving forward with their lives. I was thinking the same the other day when chatting on the ‘weird’ thread about how the online narc caught me.

            I’ve been caught twice, both times I was at a low ebb. I was at points in my life where I was already feeling lost and isolated. We’ve described it on the blog as bleeding into the water.

            HG tells us to leave it at least 6 months post escape before commencing another relationship. The thinking being that ET needs to fall to reduce risk of another ensnarement. That man never wastes his words and he’s totally right with this. For me, it’s not just about ET falling, it’s about being at a point where I’m happy within myself. Content with myself, happy seeing friends, doing things I forgot I enjoyed, making my life full, without anyone new in it. It’s the difference between ideally wanting a relationship (if that’s what you want) and needing a relationship. Needing is when we’re bleeding into the water I think. Needing someone to make us feel better, needing to fill a void, whatever it might be. If we feel that need then we aren’t ready, and we are at risk of another ensnarement.

            Once we get to the point where we are content with our lives as they are, then our ET is likely already low. We cut the risk further by being in a more logical and clear headed state of mind when we do actually meet someone new, be it friend or romantic interest. We are more likely to spot red flags, poor behaviour and rule people out on that basis because we don’t need that person in our lives, we are instead choosing to include people in our lives. Or not. We’ve taken back control essentially.

            In addition, our awareness of narcissism and how the dynamic works works is now in place. It wasn’t before we got here. If in doubt, we can even run an NDC after a few months, the HG green light if you like.

            We have an addiction yes but we can take so many steps to cut risk and manage it effectively. It takes time though to get to the point where we are happy with our lives as they are. It might be six months, it might be two years it might be five, it doesn’t matter in the whole grand scheme of things. I think it’s at that point though that it’s time to move forward with new relationships or friendships. Life is for living I agree. Allowing the past to dictate the future is the narc winning. I’ll be damned if I ever allow that to happen.

            I agree with you, I have witnessed and been at the receiving end of poor behaviour from narcs, non narcs and probably even empaths. The response is the same each time, walk away, there’s nothing positive to be had with that person. Understand and stick to your own boundaries. I agree also if you are confined to having to interact with an individual in a workplace or familial setting, then it is helpful to classify that individual more accurately. In general terms though, poor behaviour is good enough for me to make the call.

            I do understand why people fear becoming ensnared over and over, but I really feel that empaths shouldn’t be nervous about getting back out there. There is no need to ‘tone down’ our empathy in any way at all. I say we should go out there light blazing, just at the right time and with awareness.

            I love your point about honouring our intuition also. Absolutely, intuition is at our very core I think, couple that with the logic learned here and we’re in a very strong position. No need to be fearful, just perhaps a need to be patient with ourselves.

            Xx

          10. A Victor says:

            “We’ve taken back control essentially.” In order for this to happen, sometimes, some of us, may need to realize we’ve never actually been in control, and then learn what that looks and feels like, practice it, get comfortable, gain confidence with it and then own it. But the first step is recognizing that we haven’t had it. I thought I was in control of my life, but I never was, I have come to see that here.

            I am patient with my fear.

          11. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Any time. I love listening to the way you see things.

            Yes, we have been extremely lucky to have had the time to process things gradually. There was no risk of us venturing out before we were ready because Covid forced us to stay home!

            I think we’ve both done what many here do as they read and understand more about their empathic selves. We dismantle ourselves into little pieces, then reassemble ourselves as new and more well rounded versions. Some bits we throw out, some we throw out then add back in later and some bits are shiny new upgrades, new eyes, sharpened senses whatever it might be.

            If we stay long enough and give the learning time to settle, I think we end up being far stronger than we have ever been. Calmer, more content. Which is a bit funny really given that narcs are envious of our contentment!

            Me too, I’m looking forward to the spring. I’m happy with my life as is and very hopeful for the future. I’m really glad you feel similarly Asp, you’re a good egg, and you deserve to be happy.

            Xx

          12. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response, good to read your comment. RE: “I love listening to the way you see things” – thank you.

            It was easier for me to process my new understanding about myself and my learning simultaneously – like ‘swapping’ old for new if you like. It is interesting in how much unnecessary ‘psychobabble’ that negative past memories ‘fogged’ and ‘clogged’ up so much of the mind and emotions. The ‘trapped’ child I had ‘retained’ because of unresolved understandings from my young age is not so trapped now, the loosening of the noose / breaking of the chains so to speak. Allowing and facing my ‘trapped’ aeon-age traumas to come to the fore helped a great deal (the ‘dismantling’ and ‘reassembling’ that you speak of). Nothing can actually be ‘thrown’ out but it can be ‘compressed’ and ‘archived’ – labelled ‘dealt with’. I am not invincible yet am stronger than I have ever known myself to be and I know enough to remain and continue to be ‘me’.

            RE: “you’re a good egg, and you deserve to be happy” – thank you for that, TS, I really appreciate it 🙂

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Yes, ‘dealt with’ is a better way of looking at it. Those experiences happened, so are part of who we are, but the emotions associated with them are dealt with and no longer impacting us as we move forward. That’s a better way of describing it I think.

            I agree, inaccurate information, psychobabble, and professionals that lack the understanding to support victims of narcissistic abuse, prevents victims from processing and dealing with what has happened to them. I can understand that pent up emotions and confusion from the past needs to be let out rather than pushed down. ACONS have far more to process in that respect I think. It must be very freeing though when that process is complete and an ACON realises, “It wasn’t me. It was them.”

            All of that takes time and I hope people allow themselves that time. It’s really encouraging to know though, that in the end and with the right support and accurate information, a full recovery can be achieved.

            Xx

          14. Asp Emp says:

            TS, RE: inaccurate information = I only ‘learned’ what I was ‘given’ as a child. I think the teachers at the pre-secondary school ‘knew’ but did not know how to ‘proceed’ (ie social services were very lacking back then). The teachers were absolutely fab with me after my father died. I have a picture I created prior father died and the teacher did all she could to ‘motivate’ me to finish it in the months after he passed. I still have it, hung on the wall in my house (in an off-set room). The colours have not faded.

            “professionals that lack the understanding” – even worse when it is a narcissist therapist. He was crap. Second one was for “anger management” at the behest of a narcissist boss. Go figure. She did her ‘job’ brilliantly (a non-narcissist) and informed me accordingly (basically an indirect fku to the boss). Years later when I see him in a store somewhere, he learns from me that I have Aspergers (like a fku from me to him). He ‘slapped’ my arm a bit too hard that it hurt and I think he was observed by someone else, probably was asked to leave that job. I never said anything to anyone. Fk him. Weeks later, I observe him walking past where I worked at that time. Interesting. Coincidental. Again, fk him.

            I had always ‘known’ it was not me. But I could never understand why I was not ‘loved’ as much as my sister was. I am so glad to have known and be loved by my father and grandmother. I ‘hold’ onto that as positive memories.

            It was the “understanding” why, that ‘alluded’ me all my life until I came to HG’s blog. He had the ‘answer’ and the ‘key’. I have now ‘unlocked’ my past.

            A full “recovery” can never be achieved. It can only be “understood” and how that is managed is similar to how one manages their ET by applying and using the correct LT as appropriate to the LOCE at that moment (the ‘now’). Granted, some LOCEs cannot be “managed” but that is what ‘strengthening’ oneself is all about by application of the right thing, the right moment, the right person ‘approach’.

            Thank you for your views, good to read, TS 🙂

          15. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            Yes, you’re right, some empaths ACONS especially, might never have had control of their lives and decision making. Absolutely, as you say that takes time and patience.

            I think sometimes we think we should be further along in the process or, should understand more, get everything right. Maybe it’s just me that gets annoyed with myself. I’m not sure! I’m getting a little bit better with that, a little bit!

            Xx

          16. Another Cat says:

            Truthseeker said

            “That said, we can have people in our lives that are toxic or whose personality is a direct clash to ours and I don’t believe that we are obligated to embrace them simply because they aren’t narcissists.”

            Oh Boy, Oh Yeah, amen to that.

            This learning and knodledge I gained from HG through the years, helps me recognise narcissists as I encounter them. Also makes me understand when someone is not.2

            And the stress and headache over feeling like accepting someone just because they are not a narcissist, even if they have a strong temper, are easily irritated, a coward, or something else.

            I’m tired of putting myself through that.

            Some empaths/normals are lieutennants to some narc in their life I don’t know about,

            some are jealous,

            some are daily hissy fits at work.

            I try to be very patient with folks in general. But starting to give myself permission to avoid troublesome ppl, whether narc or not. There are many many nice individuals out there anyway!

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Asp,

          “ The colours haven’t faded” that made me both happy and sad at the same time. X

          To question why you weren’t loved as much as your sister was must have been so confusing as a child, it’s so sad and it’s so contrary to a normal parenting instinct too. As a mum, you recognise that your children are different but there’s no difference in the amount of love you have for them. One can be repeatedly driving me up the wall ( as teenagers sometimes do) while the other is going through a chill spell haha, but that doesn’t influence my love. Narcissist parents are parents via biology, that really is as far as it goes.

          When you say LOCE in the now, do you mean situations that you find yourself in now that you aren’t sure how to handle? I just wanted to clarify what you meant there please?

          I’m glad you found your answers Asp Emp, I really am.

          Xx

          1. Asp Emp says:

            TS, I would suggest that ‘confusion’ was not how I experienced it, because I did not understand “confusion” as such at a young age. It was more of ‘hurt’, ‘anger’ – why hurt me, I understood upset feelings, physical pain, rejection, shouting at me, breaking / damaging my things – that ‘mattered’ to me etc. Physical pain = emotional torture = mental torture = re-programming = anger and more anger, for years. It is not nice to carry that around and not understand why I carried it without being able to ‘let it go’. KTN blog = the space to release it.

            I needed support (disabilities), nurturing. Father gave that. Muvver did not bother to obtain even a telephone adapted for Deaf people, my friends had them, I didn’t. Why? Muvver did not bother going or taking me to Social Services for financial support to get equipment. Yes, she made sure I attended appts at London hospital for my hearing aids check etc – even then, she missed some of those appointments! I obtained my hospital records from when I was a toddler to when I moved from London, there was much “information” in there that I found out. I questioned her on a couple of things. Ie reading in there about her over-dosing at 6 months pregnant. It was also in there that I read I was born starved of oxygen (effectively had to be ‘revived’). She was not obviously “looking after her unborn baby”. That was part of my ‘anger’ and it is perfectly acceptable and understandable. It was also in there about my father wanting me to go to that school, wanted me to have better hearing aids. Clear and distinctive actions of both parents. I have since destroyed the records.

            Yes, the ‘now’ = LOCEs. If you think about it, everyone has “LOCEs”. Situations, incidents etc that can occur anywhere, any time, with anybody. I can refer to what you say “One can be repeatedly driving me up the wall” as a prime example, even though I know you, as a mother would deal with that in your own way. It is how it is handled, responded to (or not). It does not necessarily mean your household is a LOCE. Even Ralph may do something to cause a ‘LOCE’. You gave another example, the call to the teacher / school, that in itself was a ‘LOCE’, you gained back your control in that respect. I’m just applying my lateral thinking (no surprise ;-)).

            Thank you for your words, TS 🙂

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            The loss of your father in those circumstances must have been absolutely devastating. That feeling of being left with just her. As I read your comment, it struck me that muvver was taking the opportunity to keep you isolated. The extra equipment that you were entitled to would have enabled better communication. You could have chatted with friends on the phone, you would have felt less apart from everyone else in the day to day social interactions. Denying you these things, I think was a way to keep you isolated.

            We understand isolation in the romantic sense, in your case I believe it was isolation at the hands of your muvver. She took full advantage of your disability and no doubt told everyone how difficult her life was because of this same disability. Narc parents to me are the absolute epitome of disgusting.

            I can fully understand your anger Asp. You are fully entitled to it. Carrying anger around with us just eats away at us in the end. We aren’t designed to hold on to it indefinitely. I’m really glad HG enabled you to let go of it. X

            Ok, good, haha I was understanding what you meant with LOCE in the now. Yes, there are plenty of situations where we can feel out of our depth or out of control. I think this is when we are most vulnerable. Once we have accepted what happened during ensnarement and we get back onto an even keel with our ET, we aren’t bleeding into the water as we once were. I agree though that we definitely need to recognise when we are experiencing a LOCE in the present because our ET does rise in line with it and all of a sudden, we’re back to being more vulnerable again.

            LOCE can seem silly to other people too. For me, my kids exam time puts me in a period of LOCE. I feel my ET rise, I recognise that feeling now and can put a name to it. Understanding how ET feels and when it’s likely to happen is part of keeping our defences up. It’s like an ongoing maintenance project. Like with old houses. Great, I’m an old house now haha! In this way I think you’re right, perhaps we are never fully recovered, just better insured against narc damage!

            I’m going to ask to consult with HG just as we go in to exam time. That way he can give me a logic boost to offset the ET rise. ET management is a real thing!

            Xx

  8. Asp Emp says:

    RE: ‘The Osbournes Want To Believe’ programme. Orh me god, you gotta love Ozzy. He’s sat there saying things like “It’s a (BLEEP) aeroplane”…….”It’s (BLEEP) nuts”….. that is how the subtitles on the TV appear, how fu*ken boring. Yet, I did not stop laughing, crying with laughter…..Jack is trying not to laugh…..then Sharon does a couple of BLEEPs herself….. This programme does not always have subtitles available but it did tonight. Apparently, this particular episode was boring for hubby & wife and they said so too (LOL). Interestingly for me, the ‘Mandela Effect’ was mentioned and a number of examples were shown and I was not surprised by the results of public voting. There was a clip of a “ghost” in a church that looked awfully similar to the one “ghosting” in the aeroplane and I thought that, before Ozzy actually stated as such.

  9. leelasfuelstinks says:

    Exactly what can be seen in my home country now! They believe their lies, they fall for their false promises, they don´t see the contradictions, they fell for they future fakes and many are paying with their lives and their health.

    1. ava101 says:

      Fully agree.

      Funny how you mention this now, 1,5-2 years ago, when I was asking a narc related question regarding this, I was attacked on this very website just for asking (by a group self proclaimed empaths, telling each other how right they were to believe “authorities” – attacking me for thinking, instead of attacking those who might have affected them through mal practice in hospital, which they will never k ow, because they had accepted orders).
      Well, it still goes on nation wide in each country, so actually world wide, – the manipulation and mind control and abuse patterns, people still not seeing it. Obvious manipulations, yes, cintradictions, hypnotic speech, misleading false logic, constant turns, blame shifting,……

      Not just your country, everywhere.

      Huuuuge demos and convoys this weekend, horrific police actions and military style presence in Paris – – people don’t even know about it. Because they only want to see what people in control, who profit from it all, show them. on TV. It’s not Stockholm syndrom, it’s a full trauma bond abuse pattern.

      Like – for example, when I watch Trudeau, I see his polished rhetoric and mimic, every single word and body language in control, the language patterns are very clear to the trained ear, all the while keeping the appearance of his school teacher persona, talking down to people. And some people fall for it and attack those who fight for their basic human rights.
      A good speech was that of the Canadian guy who had co signed the charter… not heard by everyone as he was appealing to individual responsibility, not being blinded.

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Indeed noticed that many Empaths are in fact following and believing the “authorities”. They believe that they do the right thing, they see the good in people and the authorities, they believe that the government is honest, they cannot or do not want to see that they are conned, that all this shit is a huge big scam!

        I personally was a real text book example: I sensed very early on that “Hey, wait a minute! Something is fishy here.” So, I decided to draw the line in the sand and not to play along. And as time went on, I decided that enough is enough. There! Classical text book example!

        1. Contagious says:

          Hi Leelas: I am mainly a contagian empath but I hate even voting as who can you believe in today. In the USA the stock is owned 75 % by private individuals and land 65%. There was a massive grab about 10% during Covid. Politicians are puppets. Koch had to hold his nose and let Trump run and win. The Koch’s decide in part for the Republican Party. Of course trump loaded the US Supreme Court with pro life justices. Does trump care? Really? No. He lived up to promises made. Also trump was anti environment as we know from his political detractions on these issues. Does Trump care? No. More promises. He just lived up to behind the scenes political parties. Biden has the credit card companies. No reform there for the masses. And why not let the reserves go to lower gas prices like they did in the 1970s? And why did the democratic bill to give huge tax credits for electric cars die? His son got $100,000 consulting fees from international gas companies. It’s all corrupt. It used to be third workd countries that had such a gap between rich and poor. It’s grown too much everywhere. This is global problem whether it’s mafia run states like Russia or dictatorships like China, the “ west” is changing and not for the good. The recent elections in France scare me. But is this a last grab? Will the millennials or younger generations change things? When the boomers are gone, they still will live in what’s left of Earth. They are different. Who knows maybe there will be change? Who knows? But if psychopaths and narcs keep control… I read that (who knows if true) 1 out of 4 are CEOs are ….then there is a challenge ahead. Norms and Empaths unite. X

          1. Contagious says:

            In the USA the millennials are the first generation to not be able to have the same wealth or living standards as their parents. And no, transfer on death will only help a few. But, I expect change is coming. It’s a pendulum like the economy or real estate. We will see changes.

      2. leelasfuelstinks says:

        And before I forget it: Truck Fudeau and Let´s go Brandon! 😁😉 We´re not gonna take it, no, we ain´t gonna take it! 👊

  10. Poison says:

    Perhaps it’s because I’m 0% Super as type and 0% Saviour in cadre–but I honestly can’t fathom what the empath at the centre of this story thinks they would accomplish by attempting to publicly protest someone who privately harmed them. Is this not what whisper networks exist to tangle with? Airing “dirty laundry” in public will only get one socially shamed and smeared, especially when dealing with a narcissist. I can’t see any logic to staging a protest, as it cannot possible achieve the stated goal of outing the narcissist for others’ sake.

    Can anyone explain what I’m missing? I’m very curious to try to understand.

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi Poison, the dichotomy between their public persona and what those of us very close to them see is absolute. It’s frustrating that others can’t see it, often it injures our pride or our trait of honesty or justice, it can hurt especially when it has involved smearing of us, heaping abuse upon abuse.

      There were, and still are, times when I wished I could get people to see the truth about the narcs that have been in my life, it’s so unfair that everyone thinks they’re so perfect when I lived, or currently do live, with them and they are horrible. I hate watching them get fuel from others. Or residual benefits. I hate watching them manipulate others and seeing others fall for it. I want to tell these people sometimes “See, right now, there it is, he/she’s doing it!”. But not only will no one believe me, those people will jump to the narcs defense and “rescue” the narc from me, leaving me look like the bad person. I learned long ago, when I was a child, it wasn’t worth it to try, no one will see it, unless they live with it. No one will help me, only them. I

      I hope this helps explain it. If you don’t already have them, there are some things in the Knowledge Vault about the facade that would explain it further to you. I found, still find, it a difficult concept to explain but a very real one that I deal with, important to understand.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Excellent comment, AV. I concur. We want to unmask them for the sake of truth and justice, but often that will only lead to more pain for us as the narcissist must always win and their facades keep them safe. Not to mention the narcissist’s army who will defend them come hell or high water. I also have given up the notion of unmasking in the circumstances. GOSO is the best option and hopefully we can lead by example. For those who remain ensnared we can only remember we were once where they are and had the wool pulled over our eyes, too. Sometimes a brave person will succeed and then we have a division between the believers and non-believers of the facade. It’s rarely going to be a full exposure. Rare cases do exist, such as that of Jeffrey Epstein. In fact, there are a number of high profile cases more recently where there is no coming back from the destruction of the facade. Others will escape justice regardless of the demolition imposed by the avalanche of naysayers who suddenly appear out of the woodwork once the first brave person speaks out. How many people does the narcissist have in high places or below them to help cover for them? Exposures are happening, so there is some hope the most egregious of them will be exposed, but generally the ‘little people’ have no hope and need to just walk away, albeit with a bitter taste left in their mouths.

    2. Contagious says:

      Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks come to mind:)

  11. NarcAngel says:

    This very dynamic is played out here on occasion.

    1. A Victor says:

      I had that exact thought reading this article this time.

    2. WhoCares says:

      Haha, NA!

    3. Leigh says:

      I was thinking the same thing but didn’t want to say it.

      It almost seems that Mr. Tudor has posted this article on purpose.

    4. Violetta says:

      NA:

      Clarify, please. Can you give some examples?

      1. Poison says:

        I’m curious about this allusion too. Perhaps us noobs will just have to wait to see it play out in front of us!

        1. Another Cat says:

          Hi Poison

          There are a couple of Midrange Narcissist commenters here on Narcsite. Very few, I found, but they are here.

          Often recognized by being ‘too much’, quite tiresome, lots of cliché statements. I guess as long as they stay within the rules, HG lets them be here.

          Many of us learn to never answer or comment on their comments. No contact.

      2. Leigh says:

        Hi Violetta & Poison, my interpretation of this comment is that there are bloggers on here that can’t always see that Mr. Tudor is a narcissist, devoid of empathy. I think they think because he has high levels of cognitive empathy and is trying to be more pro social that it somehow makes him a good person. He’s really just an evil person doing good things because it serves his purposes. Not everyone can see that.

        I don’t know if that’s how NA meant it but that’s how interpreted it.

        1. Contagious says:

          I see him as a psychopath and narc but he provides an amazing service and he does so respectfully. It’s a blog not a date lol

          1. Contagious says:

            HG has disagreed with me, made a joke about something I said and pointed out a flaw in my opinion but always with respect. I find the people here to be wonderful, honest, brave and intelligent mostly.

    5. Z - zwartbolleke says:

      NA, as ever: 👌🏻 spot on!!

    6. Violetta says:

      NA:

      I can’t remember who recommended this; maybe it was someone on here, possibly you, but does the HeartlessBitches “rant” “You Think That You Are So Special” encapsulate what you mean?

      If there are conversations on here that give a better idea, please link me.

    7. Truthseeker6157 says:

      More so KHG I think.

      People buy into different things. The greatest cynic of one aspect could be the most staunch supporter in another. It just depends on the hook.

      1. A Victor says:

        TS, it happens on here too. Whenever a rudimentary element of the dynamic is denied or not seen, here or anywhere else, it’s this outcome.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          AV,

          After having read Another Cat’s response to Poison, I think I’ve misunderstood the original comment from NA so please disregard my comment above.

          In terms of narcs on the blog, I’ve only seen the real obvious ones, haven’t seen any on the KHG side.

          Xx

          1. A Victor says:

            TS, consider your reply to NA disregarded.

            I would not be surprised if narcs go to KHG also, I just know there are some here. That said, there are also empath’s here who don’t see clearly, and maybe even some normals. I know there are elements I don’t see clearly yet.

            I got an odd message after sending, hopefully this doesn’t turn up twice.

  12. Asp Emp says:

    https://narcsite.com/2019/08/05/why-cant-they-see-it-too-the-narcissists-facade-at-work-2/#comment-286215

    Fooking hell, that is really hilarious!!

    “So many sheep. So little common sense”

    Quacking with laughter……

    1. Poison says:

      “Quacking with laughter”, I absolutely love it! XD

      1. Asp Emp says:

        0poison0, thank you 🙂

  13. A Victor says:

    One of the most frustrating aspects of the whole dynamic.

    1. Another Cat says:

      Yes and the most frustratung bit is the answer:

      They fall for the same façade I once fell for.

      1. A Victor says:

        Haha, and the irony is that the facade is what keeps it from being seen… It’s a vicious cycle! 🥴🌀

    2. leelasfuelstinks says:

      And the worst thing about it is, when a whole country falls for the facade!

      1. A Victor says:

        Hi Leela, nice to see you! Hope you’ve been doing well. Yes, a whole country is really horrible.

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          Hey AV, yes, I´´m doing well, and protesting a lat 😉✊

        2. leelasfuelstinks says:

          and by the way: We have a couple of narcs on our side 😂 Sometimes it´s not so bad to have Cluster B´s on your side. They have no remorse, no boundaries, no guilt.

          1. A Victor says:

            Haha, they’re useful! I agree that can be true, just not in a relationship with one!

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Definitely NOT in a relationship! And definitely NOT in the government! It is an open secret that one of our ministers is a cerebral narcissist! Lovely, isn´t it? 🤢

      2. Contagious says:

        And there is this idea that only narcs have power. That they are needed to make the hard decisions. I don’t buy it. I consulted HG about my son a marine. I was confused as how can a good man kill. My son is a very very compassionate man who is very logical in thinking but is nearly professional in boxing and is a soldier. The government trains boys to be killers. Does that make them narcs? No. My heart breaks for those soldiers who volunteered to help the Ukraine. Good men. They face the death sentence in Russia. Good men are military and they have power too.

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