Why Can’t They See it Too? The Narcissist´s Facade At Work

 

 

“Okay,” you announce as you turn to the small group of like-minded individuals stood with you, “he will be here any minute.” The members of the group nod. You had hoped there would be more of you, ready and willing to protest, to point out to other people just what I am like.

When you approached people to gather their support there was a mixture of reactions. A handful immediately agreed and they were vocal and enthusiastic in their support. Others explained that they had other things to do on this day and would not be able to participate in the protest. You emphasised the importance of the protest not only to you but in sending out a message to the others who would be watching but they were unmoved.

The apologies seemed genuine as they explained how they had an existing engagement or they could not let somebody else down. There was also a group of people who agreed but come the day of the protest they were nowhere to be seen. Still, there are five of you and with a concerted effort you should be able to make sufficient noise to attract my attention. The banners and placards should get the message across as well. You have secured an excellent vantage point which means as my car pulls up outside this prestigious building I will have no option but to walk past you and your small band of supporters.

There is a nervous excitement in your stomach as you contemplate at long last being able to give me a dose of the truth and also to let the wider world know that I am not the wonderful person I pretend to be but someone altogether more despicable and darker. You have managed to attract the interest of a couple of local news channels who are setup nearby, cameramen and reporters clustered together waiting to cover the event.

You promised them revelations about a prominent business man and you cannot wait to see the reactions when you reveal the truth. For too long you have suffered at my mouth and hands and now it is time for some justice. You heft the placard in your hand which has “Serial Abuser” daubed on it in large letters. A banner has been draped across the wall. It is a professional-looking banner which declares – “Abuser Alcoholic Adulterer Aggressor”.

You glance at the other placards held by your supporters which detail a range of truths about me which will no doubt infuriate me when I see them and realise they are being broadcast to a wider audience. As you are checking over these placards you notice that a lot of people are streaming into the square. There were some passers-by as there usually are along with people sitting down for lunch on a bench but there are far more people now striding across the square and they are doing so purposefully as they head towards where you are.

“Who are this lot?” you ask. Your supporters turn to see the many people who are now streaming into the square. You notice that they are carrying their own banners and placards.

“It looks like we’ve attracted some additional support,” says one of your friends.

“Excellent,” you smile, “it looks like word has spread.”

“Hey look, there’s Angela, she has decided to come after all,” adds another friend.

“Yes and Tina and Paula. In fact, there’s quite a few of them who said they were busy have turned up. Fantastic!” another friend remarks.

You call out to Angela, waving at her. She turns her head in your direction but rather than the warm smile and enthusiastic return wave you were expecting she shoots you a haughty look and turns away. You halt waving, arm still in the air, puzzled by her reaction. You see Angela nudge Tina who also turns your way and she aggressively pushes the placard she is carrying up and down. You see the word “Hero” written on it Paula’s placard is also then displayed with the words “Golden Boy”.

“What’s going on?” asks a friend nervously. You watch as the group who you thought were friends that you can rely on take up position a little distance away from you. You contemplate going to speak to them but they are soon obscured by the other people who have flooded into the square. You recognise a few faces, some are friends of mine, others are colleagues of mine you have met once or twice and they all carry placards, signs and banners. You feel a sense of dread creeping over you as you look at the writing on them,

“A true gent”

“Generous donor”

“A brilliant friend”

“Amazing lover”

“Pillar of the community”

“Loving son”

“Marvellous brother”

Compliments. A sea of painted and printed compliments that are now being waved in the air as you find you are surrounded by scores of my supporters. You see the television crews panning their cameras across the crowd of eager and enthusiastic people who are chanting my name.

“What is going on?” you wonder aloud. You try to fight down the spreading sensation of anxiety, drawing on the determination which caused you to come here ready to unmask me.

“We need to make ourselves heard,” you announce and turn to rally your supporters only to find they have gone.

“What?” you say to nobody in particular. The placards decrying me lie on the floor and you look around trying to spot your friends who were stood there just a moment ago ready to protest and show me for what I really am. You see one of your friends across the way and you try to push through the mass of people but it is no use. Your mouth falls open as you see your friend now enthusiastically waving a placard which reads “I love you”.

Fuming you turn back to the wall to find a man tugging at your banner.

“Hey, leave that!” you shout at him.

“What did you say?” he asks aggressively.

“I said to leave that banner.”

You push your way to him and try to remove his hands from the banner.

“This is coming down,” he says, “such awful things to say about a great person.”

“What are you talking about?” you say.

“This,” he jabs a finger at the banner, “all lies.”

“No they are not, believe me I know exactly what he is like.”

“Hold on a moment, you are that psycho who has been stalking him aren’t you?” asks the man as a moment of realisation washes over him.

“Me a psycho? Is that what he has been saying about me? That isn’t a surprise. He is the psycho, do you know what that man has done to me? He has put me through hell.”

“Ridiculous. It is just jealousy on your part. You were nobody before he came along and he gave you so much only for you to be cheat on him. You should be ashamed of yourself you whore!” spits the man.

“More lies!” you shout back, but he is not listening as a huge roar erupts from the crowd. You forget about the banner and instead you lean across the wall vigorously waving your placard as my car sweeps into view. The car stops and two black-suited men leap out, wearing sunglasses and they sweep their gaze around the crowd before I get out of the car, immaculately attired, waving at the assembled throng with a broad smile across my face. The cameras swing round and focus on me as my name is chanted in unison. You do your best to make yourself heard, screaming the truths about my real nature as loud as you can but it is to no avail as the chanting of the zealous and appreciative crowd drowns you out. Your frustration mounts as you watch me soaking up the adulation. I walk towards the crowd, flanked by the two men who continue to scrutinise the sea of smiling faces. Hands are thrust out, eager to touch me and I shake hands with people, acknowledging these well-wishers, moving along the crowd until I reach you. I halt and look at you and unleash that brilliant smile, my eyes lighting up, just the way they did all that time ago.

“Hello, how good of you to come, so lovely to see you here,” I say.

“I’m here to let the world know what a bastard you are!” you shoot back.

“Hey, there’s no need to be like that,” admonishes a lady to your right.

Before you can speak I put up a hand and reply,

“It’s okay, this is Victoria, we know one another, I made her life hell.”

“See?” you announce, “at last he is admitting what he has done. That is why I hate him.”

“You hate him because he made your life swell?” asks the lady in a confused voice.

“No, he said he made my life hell, he did, he was awful to me. Tell her, tell her what you did,” you insist. I continue to smile and turn to the other woman.

“It is true, I shoved her, I would beat her, I insulted her and caused her harm,” I say.

“At last, at last, finally,” you announce with a joyous look on your face.

“Yes well, I would look happy too if he said that to me, you lucky lady,” continues the lady next to you.

“Sorry?”

“He said ‘I loved her, I would treat her, I insulated her from harm’ he is such a good man. I wish he were mine.”

“No, you are not listening properly, he did not say those things at all,” you protest.

“This man is a monster. He made my life a misery and he still tries to do that. Don’t you?”

“I make your life unbearable,” I confirm.

“See?”

“He said he makes your life unbeatable,” chimes in a man from behind you, “Lady, I don’t know what your problem is but we are here to thank this wonderful man for being part of our lives, you need to take a hike.”

“Yes, clear off, we don’t need troublemakers like you,” adds another voice. One of the black-suited men wrenches the placard from your hands and snaps it over his knees as you feel yourself being pulled and jostled. You are hauled backwards as the crowd surges and closes the gap where you once were stood. You can see me grinning and waving at you, eyes glinting in delight until I have disappeared from view and you fall backwards onto the hard stone of the square, expelled by the crowd. You feel the tears of anger and frustration along with that familiar sensation of despair as you lie on your back breathing heavily.

“Come on, up you come,” says a voice. A hand takes yours and you are pulled to your feet by an old man who is surprisingly strong given his advanced years. He guides you to one of the benches away from the crowd and its raucous support.

He lowers you to the bench as you wipe away the tears.

“Thank you.”

“Quite alright.”

“Why don’t they see him for what he is? I don’t understand.”

“Ahh, such is the problem when you run into a demagogue,” sighs the old man, “I am afraid you did not stand a chance. Do you think this lot just turned up on spec? Not at all. This mob has been recruited and fashioned for months now. He has been sowing his charm all around and you have to admit he is charming; you fell for it yourself didn’t you?”

You nod slowly.

“So is it any wonder all these people did as well. You are sharp, independent and intelligent and you were taken in. Some of these people cannot see further than their own noses.”

“But I saw my friends supporting him, even my brother as well, why would they do that when they know how badly he has been treating me?”

“Oh he is clever alright. Your brother gets business from him so he is not going to pour scorn on that, not with the economy being the way it is. Your friends? Well, they are not really your friends are they? Two of them have designs on him themselves and couldn’t wait for you to be cast aside. The others all think he is wonderful because that is all they have ever seen and when they are fed such a daily diet they tend to end up believing it.”

“But I told them what he did, I showed them the nasty messages.”

“I know, but he got in first. He told them about your temper and your ability to fly off the handle and of course they have all seen that at some point, so it added up for them. He is very persuasive.”

“I know, but how did he get so many people to support him, look at them,” you wave an arm in the direction of the crowd.

“People like success and they want to be associated with it. Many of them don’t like to think for themselves or get embroiled in aggravation, so it is easier just to bleat like a sheep and follow the crowd. He knows this and he has done this many, many times. You did not stand a chance.”

“But it isn’t fair. I mean, he was actually telling this woman in the crowd what he had done and she twisted it so it sounded like he was saying good things about me.”

“Indeed, he is an expert at twisting the truth so you seem like a crazy person and he remains the golden one.”

“I know, I just wish people would listen and see it.”

“They won’t or only a few will. He invests a lot of effort in cultivating his façade of respectability so that it is near impregnable and he uses this to crush you when you think you might be able to expose him for what he is, as you have seen today. You met the façade and it drowned you out, sucked away your supporters and spat you out.”

“Excuse me for asking, but how do you know all this?” you ask curious as to who this helpful stranger is.

“You aren’t the only one who has seen through him you know? I did too and it got me where you are now.”

“You know him?”

“Oh absolutely, not that he has much to do with me, save when it suits him to turn the mob against me when all I have tried to do is help. Talking of which, we need to leave, he will be going inside soon and then his supporters will be looking to exercise the power of the mob and we don’t want to be still sitting here when that happens.”

“Can’t we challenge them, persuade them, show them what he is like. Now there are two of us, they might listen?”

“They don’t want to know. It is easier for them that way. That is why they cannot see it. The result of a blindness and unwillingness created by his manipulations and their innate failings. Come on, it is time to go.”

And go you should.

123 thoughts on “Why Can’t They See it Too? The Narcissist´s Facade At Work

  1. Asp Emp says:

    TS,

    https://narcsite.com/2022/02/02/why-cant-they-see-it-too-the-narcissists-facade-at-work-9/#comment-426487

    Thank you for your words in your response to me. Especially in relation to my ‘entitlement’ to my anger and why I held it for so long before I was able to let it go. I can see that you do now understand me better.

    In us learning to understand what LOCE, ET and LT is within ourselves and perceptions of how others view it in us and themselves is such a valuable piece of life education that is available on this blog.

    The beauty of this blog too? You can teach your children to understand what ET, LT and LOCE is. No need to mention narcissism at all. You can use ‘ET, LT and LOCE’ when communicating with your children after they have learned what these acronyms to mean. So, if out and about in public, “(child’s name), ET” is enough to indicate. It’s a ‘code-word’ in itself, which would prompt a turnaround in the present LOCE and aid them to learn to manage their ET / LT as they progress into adults. This is a golden opportunity you have that many parents did not necessarily have in the history of humanity.

    Yes, ET management is a real thing 🙂

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Asp, I’m so sorry, I’m losing comments left and right. I have been onto my WordPress account and deleted some old threads and things seem to have improved notification wise over the last couple of days.

      Thank you for posting these comments, I followed you here from the Andrew thread and I have yours and LET’s comments there that I also missed. Give me a nudge if I look like I’m not answering haha! I just won’t have seen them! Aargh !

      I love the idea of introducing the acronyms and what they mean into discussions with my kids, I think that’s a great suggestion.

      I’m lucky that both confide fully so we have some pretty deep conversations! My daughter is very switched on. I had a blast from the past the other day. My ex best friend had sent a FB Messenger request, asking to meet up. We haven’t spoken for about two years. My daughter commented that she thought that was strange, to message out of the blue like that after such a long time. So her antennae is up ! We talked about ghosting and zombieing, what it can mean etc, and we discussed our thoughts on what I should do about the message. Interestingly, she told me to ignore it.

      My son is more trusting of people, out of the two of them he is more vulnerable. Both show very strong signs of being empaths but are a little young yet to know for sure. Having discussions with them about online safety, dating, privacy, relationships etc are pretty normal for us so broadening the subjects to include these terms I think is a useful and gentle introduction to the wider subject, particularly my son.

      I agree with you, the blog is really useful in so many ways. To be able to provide my kids with accurate information ahead of time which increases awareness and encourages them to question, to think and to protect themselves, is hugely valuable. HG has some little uns flying under his wing

      Smiling at your comment about me understanding you better. 😘

      Heading back to the paper trail of lost comments! Thank you for the suggestion Asp and for thinking about the two people most precious to me.

      Xx

      1. Asp Emp says:

        TS, no worries 🙂 Sometimes I remove the bookmarks off my home screen and re-install them (sometimes clearing the cookies cache history helps, and restart PC after such ‘cleaning’).

        It is really good that you have an open communication with your kids. They certainly will become aware through learning from you directly. Yes, your kids may be a little young to know for sure RE: empath status. Still, nothing wrong with providing them with the knowledge (about behaviours of people, not necessarily specifically about narcissism) that they can share with their friends, or ‘show’ up some teachers 😉

        Your daughter is ‘switched’ on RE: ignore after 2 years. Interesting. Then again, I had a friend that went quiet on FB / social media for 3 / 4 years cos of her own messy marriage with ex-police and re-established contact 6 months before I joined KTN (she and I talked narcissism, muchly!).

        You’re welcome, TS. Thank you for discussing 🙂 Really good 🙂

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hey Asp,

        Thank you for the tips, sadly I’m on iPad but, deleting the old threads has improved the notifications somewhat.

        It was a strange tale with my friend. Maid of Honour at my wedding, godmother to both my kids, had known each other for years. We had taken trips to see each other whilst I was in the US. She suffered with depression and I supported her throughout. Long phone conversations, I made myself fully available whenever she needed to talk, even at odd hours. When we moved to SC my personal situation took a turn for the worse. I was battling my own mood dips but didn’t discuss that. I was still fully available for her. I was withdrawing into myself further and further and ordinarily I would have invited her to stay, but, I didn’t want anyone staying in my home environment at that time, I couldn’t have hidden what I wanted to hide and so no invite to stay. I called her less but still made myself available when she called me.

        I made the move back to the uk, my home environment was still not conducive to having someone stay, it was actually getting worse and remained so for some time. (I can’t give detail. This time period is not something I ever discuss.) Out of the blue, she sent a Facebook quote, something about good friends do this bad friends do that, she posted it mysteriously to her timeline also and she blocked me.

        I don’t respond to that kind of behaviour. Perhaps it was supposed to get me to call or email, perhaps I should have, but I didn’t. She had sent the message and blocked without any discussion, there was no discussion with me that perhaps she felt ignored etc etc. just the snarky Facebook quote and block that came out of the blue. (I had actually said whilst still in the US that things were not going well, I just didn’t give detail. I didn’t want to talk about it. I didn’t talk about it with anyone.) That was that. Until this latest message two years on, asking to meet for coffee and telling me how she often wondered about my kids. Might be a bit longer than two years come to think of it.

        I can see it from her side, I wasn’t calling as often, no invite to stay, but to not discuss it, not tell me if she was feeling overlooked perhaps or undervalued, shocked me. Just a message and a block. Nothing until the request to meet for coffee a few days ago.

        As I was blocked, the message is via friend request. I don’t post on Facebook and she won’t know I’ve read the message until I accept the friend request, or not. The strange thing is, I don’t miss her. The friendship was very one sided. It was me supporting her and little in return. That said, and in her defence, I don’t confide, so I am difficult to support.

        I feel like I ought to respond, I’m not angry. What I honestly feel, is nothing.

        Xx

        1. Asp Emp says:

          TS, thank you for sharing more insight RE: the ‘supposed’ friend. I understand. I, too, had a number of ‘fake’ friends where you give a lot of support to but not get much back. Interesting RE: the FB quote thing then blocking you. There are seemingly a number of red flags in the behaviours. What irks me more than anything, is fake people and I have far less tolerance for them than I do for narcissists. I think you acted accordingly and not feeling anything for that “friend” says a lot. Interesting how much you understand more about people when you learn how to read them better 🙂 I am glad to read that you are ok about it 🙂 x

          1. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp Emp,

            Thank you for your message. Yeah, it’s a strange tale. I think I’m more blind when it comes to friends than I am with romantic partners. I think that’s to do with expectation. I know I’m a loyal partner and I expect the same in return, whereas friends, I’m not sure what my expectations should be. I’m more prone to making excuses for a friend than a partner. The fact I don’t feel anything in this case is probably a good steer. I ought to feel something. I think I was just so shocked she would do that, that I just turned cold.

            Good to hear your objective view Asp, it helps. Xx I know what you mean too, fake people do disappoint me more than narcissists. Again, I think that’s to do with my expectations. I read a comment on here recently where the commenter stated it’s best to have no expectations at the start of a relationship. I see the logic there. It’s a very open and free approach which I admire. I’m not sure I have that in me though. I’m not sure I’m that laid back.

            I had a favourite book as a kid. The Water Babies by Charles Kingsley. My dad brought it home for me when he had been working away one time. There’s a character in it called Mrs Doasyouwouldbedoneby. I think that book influenced the way I view people, I also think that it probably has a lot to answer for!

          2. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. When it comes to friends, I would suggest that when loyalty should be given in return – if that is not forthcoming then I’d (especially since KTN learning) suggest that I would question whether that person is a friend.

            RE: “I’m not sure I’m that laid back” – I understand that, totally. I think it is a combination on my part – my experiences as a whole and also Aspergers mindset “No effort given = not worth the effort”. Maybe it is the scales of Justice? I am too giving, too nice, too generous at times.

            What I am thankful for, is the ‘additional’ confidence in myself to be able to view my ‘reasons’ for being ‘me’ towards people and situations. The Will Smith series that HG has done has given me more pause for thought = the additional confidence in myself. It saddens me at the same time (not necessarily just ET based), it can be likened to not being ‘accepted’ for what I am and why I am the way I am. I’ve talked more about this in my comment in ‘Fury’.

            I’d rather have a handful of genuine, loyal friends than hundreds of ‘hanger-ons’ and fakes.

            Thank you for conversing on this, I appreciate it 🙂

            PS, thank you for your response on ‘Prince Andrew : It Won’t Go Away’ thread. It is interesting to be able to see where the train of thought and the train of feeling can differ, thought = stays on track, feelings = can get stopped in tracks ie a fookin tree lying across it, or train slows down due to leaves on the track. But the feelings do not necessarily get derailed. Thanks again 🙂

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            This is a really lovely comment, thank you xx.

            The feeling of wanting to be understood, not even having people agree necessarily, but at least to recognise where your thoughts come from, the meaning behind them, I think links closely to the ability to confide.

            There is an element of resentment too. “I can listen, I can find where you are and haul you upwards, why can’t you do that for me? Why can’t you sense it?” For you there is also the Asperger’s that likely further complicates your being / feeling understood. It’s part of being an empath though too I think. We are operating on a different frequency and until I landed here, I didn’t realise that that was the case.

            “No effort given = not worth the effort.” Is that an Aspie mindset? Haha, yes, I like that. I think that’s where my frustration comes from too. It often feels like people don’t make the effort or take the time to truly understand others. I’m starting to question though if it’s more to do with being incapable of listening closely enough to understand. Something such as taking the time to truly listen seems simple enough, but it might also be linked to the higher level of emotional empathy experienced by the empath. It might actually be a skill set that empaths have and see as ‘normal’ when in reality non empaths just don’t have that particular skill. A combination of lack of ability leading to lack of effort. Social media doesn’t help people there either. Fast information, impersonal communication, surface level connection.

            It’s lovely to see your growing self acceptance and the additional value you now place on yourself because of it. I agree, listening to HG’s analysis of Will Smith was very eye opening. He has been over compensating and criticising himself repeatedly for that single failure to protect his mother. I can’t see that changing whilst he remains ensnared. HG’s work does teach self acceptance, I think it just takes time for that lesson to sink in and it must be particularly difficult for ACONS. They have a lifetime of programming by the narcissist to unpick.

            “The scales of justice” I see this as a positive thing and it points to reinforcing stronger boundaries. If something feels unfair then that’s a warning signal. That might just answer my friend question too. Her behaviour felt very unfair.

            I haven’t seen your comment on ‘Fury’ I’ll read it now. Laughing at your train analogy. I added to the Andrew thread late last night, I kept my thoughts on track, just, I think, haha!

            I’m enjoying the conversation too Asp. Thank you for listening and working through things with me. 😘

            Xx

          4. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. Where you suggest “I’m starting to question though if it’s more to do with being incapable of listening closely enough to understand” – granted, there are some people who do not have the mental capacity to understand. There are others who are being selfish. Sometimes, emotional empathy does not come in to it.

            Yes, I have noticed that Will seems to be ‘stuck’ in one place (mother being hit by father) – that obviously had a tremendously traumatic affect on him. I think Will realised at that moment (more instinctively – the Contagion – rather than consciously) that his mother could have died. It has ‘plagued’ him since. Similarly, my the loss of my father = similar ‘affects’. That is, in my view, the ‘root’ of all the pain – the layers of the narcissistic abuse need to be ‘removed’ first (understanding narcissism, why the addiction, understanding aspects of oneself). That is how I did my “journey” – the most recent abuse and working ‘backwards’ from that. Like ‘retracing’ the steps backwards into the past, despite how painful it is. It was my only way forward for myself personally.

            I decided not to post my comment on ‘Fury’. Basically, it started (and ended) with the words “Justice because of injustice”. I think you ‘summed’ it up “Her behaviour felt very unfair”.

            There is a difference in people responding because they are not getting their way (expectations = selfishness), to people standing up for themselves (defense = justice). I suppose it can be likened to the ‘golden child’ (ie my sister) and the ‘scapegoat child’ (ie me) differences – I was never both.

            This ‘train’ (me) cannot be ‘derailed’. People can try. It is not gonna work. If they wave a red cloth in my face, I’ll respond, accordingly (whether it is ‘Silent Treatment’, or ‘Discard’, or ‘Disengagement’, or ‘Tirade’, never mind ‘Provocation’). If people support me on my train journey, help push the ‘train’, the actions speaks for themselves and, again, I will ‘respond’ accordingly. It’s black, or white.

            I do listen to people. I support them too. But when a ‘friend’ turns ‘foe’, that’s it. I think you understand my way of thinking, like I understand yours. Thank you, for conversing on this, TS x

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            Thank you for explaining more of your journey to me x.

            Starting in the present and working slowly backwards through each relationship. I can see the thinking there, clever. The other way round and things would likely be missed as not significant enough, the larger events would suck in all the focus.

            I imagine that uncovering the sheer number of narcissists in your life must have shocked then enraged you. Like a pack of hyenas, circling, each taking a little piece, arseholes.

            The loss of your dad was pivotal I think, not just because he was your dad, but he was also the much needed protector and guide. He’s the one who most likely gave you your empathy. If you had the predisposition to narcissism, he was the intervener, your grandma too. Next time you cry at a movie, or lean down to talk to and fuss over a dog, just think “That’s my dad in me.” 😊

            There is a difference in people responding because they are not getting their way (expectations = selfishness), to people standing up for themselves (defense = justice).”

            Absolutely. I think we do actually recognise which of the two the response is, we just don’t like to accept it, we don’t like to think that we didn’t pick up on that right at the very start. A lot of that was lack of awareness though, now we are very aware and our odds get better all the time.

            Friend to foe. Yes, I know how to deal with a foe, once I recognise them that is haha! I chucked my rose coloured specs in the bin shortly after I arrived here. Decided they didn’t do me any favours.

            I am confident your train will stay firmly on the tracks. Just watch out for the Fat Controller, I never trusted him, something about the eyes 😉

            Thank you too Asp Emp, I enjoy our conversations too.

            Xx

          6. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. The working ‘backwards’ mindset is something I consciously use in a systematic way ie procedures. I did not consciously plan to apply this same method to my journey here, it just happened. It worked though. Yes, the larger events tend to be the ‘abyss’ – it can be likened to the black hole that HG describes in one of his recent videos on Will Smith.

            The uncovering of the number of narcissists did not enrage me. It was only the ones that had the most impact ie longer term, that did piss me off. And to think maternal parental narcissist ‘vacuumed’ me into her black hole as soon as I was put into her arms at birth.

            My dad was the golden child, protected by his mother. You may be right about my dad & my inheriting his empathy but I recognise the strength of my empath from grandmother’s DNA. I certainly inherited my father’s ‘attitood’ characteristics, I love him for that 🙂

            Totally agree with you RE: the odds get better all the time. That’s why I say that I see with more clarity 😉

            Laughing at your throwing away the rose-coloured specs 😉 We were ‘told’, weren’t we? 😉 I stomped on mine 😉

            Laughing….. about the Fat Controller !!! You reminded me of the scene in ‘The Handmaid’s Tale’ where the train smacked into the two running across the tracks (I am laughing as I type this but at the time it still took me by surprise, like ‘fk!’). Hmmm, now there’s thought fuel 😉

            You mentioned art in your comment on the Prince Andrew thread. I was reminded of a time when I had my close friends to stay (years ago), I’d been picking up my dog’s waste deposits and it had rained the day before. Using the plastic scooper, I’d flung it onto the wall that them f*cken neighbours built and, hey, a work of art! The sh*t had stuck to the wall into the shape of a handgun. My friend took a photo of my other friend’s hand shadow as if to have the ‘pistol’ in her hand. It was comical. We all laughed for ages at that ‘art’. It was sh*t!

            When you’re in London again, go to Liberty’s, you’d like it. You daughter would too 🙂 It’s good to talk, thank you 🙂 x

          7. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Lovelies,
            I totally get you all and it very much saddens me how friendships are sometimes very one sided and they usually end over something quite trivial
            I have just had this happen to our little group 😔
            We all became friends at work (one was already my friend prior, now 30 years) the other two I’ve known for 15 years
            One had some recent nitpicking issues with the other, total misunderstanding, however, will not see reason or take into consideration anything else going on in the ‘cursed’ one’s life and has opted out of group as a whole but wishes to remain friends with my long term friend and moi.

            The two said females in question are alpha type females. Lou, up front and in your face with little discretion and both process strong narcissistic traits. They both think they are right and blame each other.
            Us remaining two are the empaths, negotiators and peacemakers and always looking for common ground. Friendships can be such delicate things and always, always expect the unexpected as you mentioned Truth.

            I’m saddened when anyone goes this as it is indeed very painful to lose what you thought was a true friend. Reciprocation is the key to any relationship.

            I can now relate it to Sex in the City, it just won’t be the same without Samantha.
            Hugs to you all 🤗
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          8. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, thank you for sharing your experience on so-called “friendships”. I agree, “something quite trivial”. It is usually a moot-point 😉

            Reading your experience here reminds me of such a ‘friend’ from school times. It is interesting to now realise why she was, more often than not, ‘stone-walling’ on a certain point. It makes sense now and in future, I know what to do (LOL). Ah, such is the power of wisdom 🙂 I wonder if my other friend can ‘sense’ it too. Whether she and I would have a discussion about it, is another matter. It may never be “discussed”. Upsetting the apple-cart sometimes is not a positive way to deal with something “trivial”. It can be handled in a constructive way ( The HG Tudor Way :-)).

            Thank you for the mention of ‘Sex and The City’. I know exactly what you mean RE: Samantha. It is suggested that as one grows older, they tend to have fewer but strong and close friendships – I suppose it is inevitably experience-based, knowledge gained from life-skills and the learning about life that never stops. That is one massive bonus we can take from HG’s work, additional knowledge that we would not have otherwise had the fortune to gain from unfortunate ‘paths’ of life.

            Bless you, Bubbles. Lovely to ‘hear’ from you and to read what you say here. Hope all is well with you, much love xx

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Bubbles,

            I’m really sorry to hear that your group split up. You would think as we all get older that there would be less drama! Friendships are delicate, you’re right. Things are often more complicated as people move around with jobs. Kids take up so much time and energy that time passes sometimes and we don’t realise how long it has been since we last saw someone we cared about. In some ways chat apps can offset this but in others they remove the urgency of face to face get togethers. Your situation was slightly different, two people being stubborn. I understand stubborn haha! Don’t think I’m an Alpha though! I can imagine you negotiating a peace deal haha! Give it time, they sound like the type to entrench. Maybe leave it a while and circle back to it in a few months 🙂

            I was thinking today about my friend at my wedding. She was my Maid of Honour. She was the best Maid of Honour I could have asked for. There are several photos of me walking out of church and later by the car, just in the background, you can sometimes see my friend, bent down, straightening the train on my dress ( it was a very long train). A narc wouldn’t do that would they? It’s unlikely they would stay in the background, fussing that my dress was lying just so.

            We went shopping for her dress. I asked her to choose exactly the dress she wanted, I even asked her which colour she would be happiest wearing before choosing my colour scheme. Getting her to decide was a nightmare. She was trying to estimate which dress I preferred her to wear so she could choose that one! I had to try to keep my expression the same after each dress so she would choose the one she liked. None of that says narc to me. It was only much later that things became more one sided.

            I don’t know, it’s playing on my mind. I always do this, deliberate for ages before jumping one way or the other. Once I jump though, I’m done, I don’t go back on the decision. Maybe I just have a little more thinking to do. Maybe I do meet her and try to get a better read on it. Urrrgh, make a bloody decision TS!

            Xx

          10. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            Thank you for your response lovely one. She has definitely been stone-walling us, as with your friend. I left the d off of Lou in my comment, they are both very loud. Haha
            I really have so much on my plate with my mum, Mr Bubbles and visiting our dear ol friend, I really don’t need this additional petty nonsense.
            She makes her presence known wherever she goes. Always wins fashion day at the races or wherever because of her quirkiness. The main reason has been over gifts she has taken offence to and then other things just happened to came into play.
            We think she’s a bit ‘cooked’ as she’s on medication marijuana and some of her behaviour has been somewhat erratic of late. The ‘cursed’ one is the youngest in the group and has some rather dominant, straight forward opinionated thinking and can be quite dictatorial and forceful, hence it’s upset ‘Samantha’ gravely recently.
            I have not responded to ‘Samantha’s’ text just yet as I’m contemplating my naval. My other empath friend wants to ‘fix’’ all the things she’s been complaining of, just to make her happy and heal the rift. It’s a big ‘no’ from me as it supports her righteous entitled attitude and means she wins, considering all the things she’s done and hasn’t acknowledged. ‘Samantha’ can be very vocal as well, when it suits her.
            “I hate hate hate, double hate, loathe entirely, this whole scenario”. (Grinch quote) Haha

            Wisdom and ageing certainly dwindles the number of friends in your life.
            Mr Tudor has certainly added valuable chaff to chew on hehe
            My mum doesn’t have many friends left (well, acquaintances really) they’ve all died. Haha
            Always lovely to chat Asp Emp, sounds like you’re in a really good place ☺️
            Double luv back at ya, luv luv Bubbles xx 😘

          11. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, thank you for your response. I am sorry to hear about ‘awkward unavoidables’ (petty nonsense – I like that 🙂 ). Laughing at her being offended at the gifts (cheeky cow!). Of course, the longer-term and heavy-use effects of that particular “medication” can make people a bit doolally. I can really understand and sympathise with you on the whole situation that you find yourself in between these women (sometimes they are the worst!!!). I am glad to read that you are not ‘permitting’ them to control you, good lass 🙂 I agree RE: the wisdom and age in regard to a smaller ‘circle’ of friends (I am reminded of Gaylord Focker films here and THAT cat! LOL). Bless you, continue with your own “stone-walling” 😉 stay strong Bubbles, love to you xx

          12. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truth,
            You are one really good friend sweetness. I’m surprised you gave her license to choose the colour she wanted to wear at ‘your’ wedding before ‘you’ chose your colour scheme. That was extremely unselfish, kind and very thoughtful of you Truth. I have not personally known or heard of any brides who would do that.

            As long as someone serves a purpose, you’re in, the moment it doesn’t go their way, that’s when the challenges and loyalties begins to rear it’s ugly head.
            The weasel would go out of his way to be ‘nice’ and appear thoughtful by adding little extra touches. It was all part of his facade, he would’ve straightened your long train perfectly haha. Yes, Truth I believe a narc would do anything and stayed in the background if warranted at the time.

            If your Maid of Honour was a true friend, she would’ve sensed your despair and understood your predicament and been there for you, as you were when she needed you.

            It’s been over two years, she blocked you, sent a cryptic Facebook message, you don’t miss her, using your kids as an excuse, she’s one sided, gives little in return…… hmmm I sorry to point out, I think you’ve answered your own question Truth.

            You’re such a lovely person Truth, you’d meet up as a sign of respect, kindness and out of the goodness of your heart.
            Whatever the outcome lovely, we still luvs ya 💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Dear Bubbles,

            Thank you for this. Reading your interpretation of my friend’s behaviour made things far clearer. The benefit of the doubt. It’s a killer isn’t it? We place our reasoning on their behaviour and all of a sudden things get very unclear.

            Your comment really touched me, thank you Bubbles😘.

            You caught it, it’s respect. I feel like I should meet her out of respect for the friendship I once thought we had. That’s what is making me think back and replay, that sense of owing, kind of. Funnily enough, respect and owing held me in place with the online narc too. I have a blind spot it seems. The same response, two different scenarios.

            Thank you for thinking about it Bubbles, for pondering my reaction and for clarifying her behaviour. I think you are exactly right. Now I do have my answer.

            Xx

          14. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            The Fockers are a hoot. Haha
            Tit for tat belongs in the schoolyard not at my age, good grief
            ‘Samantha’ is also a hoarder, so our gifts come from her huge stockpile.
            We have all received chipped broken cheap old and out of date from her and she justifies it by saying but it’s Made in England haha

            She lives in a posh suburb drives a posh car and has a professional husband who supports her every whim n fancy. They are very well off. When she op shops she drives the ordinary car and looks like the bag lady.
            ‘Cooked’ is an understatement, however I love her dearly, we will wait and see what happens whilst I continue to ‘stone-wall’ 😂
            Thank you gorgeous
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          15. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, talk about leading a double-life, eh? It is so good to read your comment first thing and drink my coffee…..”huge stockpile”…..poor woman, having issues and not realising what she is trying to ‘replace’ (or ‘escape’ from). I have seen hoarder related tv programmes. It is rather sad in some way. I still think ‘WTF’ though. Thank you for giving me a giggle, Bubbles 🙂 xx

          16. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Your artistic creation cracked me up. The thought of you and your friend stood in front of it with your heads tilted to one side saying, “Is it just me, or does that look like a gun?” Haha. Perhaps we should start calling you Banksy!

            Interesting you think your empath gene was passed down through your grandmother. I remember you mentioning this before. I have been thinking about my grandma too of late, my dad’s mum. She had a dry wit, smart mouth, held on to her cough drops right until the end and was stubborn as a mule. Incredibly understanding and protective of me. I’m thinking similarly to you. It’s my dad’s side rather than my mum’s that carries the empath gene, if there is such a thing.

            So your dad had a good helping of spirit then huh? Haha, that works too. Nothing wrong with being spirited 😉

            Xx

          17. Asp Emp says:

            TS, my friends were watching me (LOL). We were preparing for a barbeque, that was another “reason” why Sasquatch from next door had to look over the wall !!!

            It was my maternal grandmother, hence why I could not understand why her daughter (narcissist) was like the “opposite”. My father was the spirited dry wit guy. Both sides of the family – different empath(y) ‘traits’.

            Sounds like you made a decision RE: the friend. Good to read. You will know either way when you have met up with her whether to continue or not, now that you have gained some understanding (learning) about people (looking at things differently). You will also get some peace of mind too. Hope it goes well for you 🙂

          18. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Ahhh, I see now. Maternal grandmother rather than paternal. I’ve missed or forgotten that somewhere along the way. I see now, yes, that must have made your mum’s behaviour appear even more out of sync.

            Empaths and narcs running through family lines, drawing each other in, it’s such an interesting but destructive dynamic. At least we now understand why it happens.

            Xx

          19. Asp Emp says:

            TS, yes RE: muvver’s behaviour, I wanted to understand how she was ‘created’ because her mother & sisters were lovely people. Maybe it was her father but I never saw the ‘other’ side of him, if it were present. That’s science / mathematics for you 🙂

          20. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Asp Emp,
            She has huge issues from her childhood and now health problems, it all makes sense, sadly she has never received any help for her addictions. She’s too old to start changing now.
            I had this woman grab the same trolley as me in the supermarket the other day, then proceeded to tell me her whole life story in 10 mins …..wants to have a coffee with me, she’s obviously very lonely, so sad.
            I seem to attract all the crazies 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          21. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, thank you for sharing more on this friend. I understand and somewhat agree that for some people the ‘help’ that may have assisted comes too late in life. My aunt is too elderly for me to have discussions with her about muvver and so on so I just told her I’d been reading up on stuff for my ‘self-therapy’ and there is other stuff that I have tot talked to her about. I do not wish to, nor feel the need to be “understood” further if you can understand?

            You are a lovely woman, Bubbles. Of course people are ‘drawn’ to you (including the ones that may be off their trolley ;-)) 🙂

          22. Bubbles says:

            Dearest AspEmp,
            I totally understand lovely about it being too late for some and it’s truly regrettable with your dear aunt.
            Sadly, my friend’s son no longer has contact with her because he thought she went completely nuts years ago
            Her daughter married a narcissist, they’re now divorced (he only ever wanted her money) now he’s off doing the same with another new victim. I don’t think my girl friend can handle any more pressure and I feel she’s hit a peak.

            Speaking of trolleys, I’m a half trolley who attracts the full trolleys 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          23. Asp Emp says:

            Hello Bubbles, your poor friend. I know what you mean when you say “hit a peak”, sad. Half a trolley?! 😉 You made me laugh. I’ll be mindful and keep an eye out for the “full trolley” when I next go shopping – I hadn’t realised it was based on the size of the trolley 😉 x

          24. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Yes, I can see your thinking there. I’ve recently started pondering similarly about my own mother. There are numerous indicators there, repeated throughout my childhood. Behaviours, things I witnessed between her and my dad etc. the desire to see me do well, more so she could tell people rather than wanting me to do what made me happy. Lots and lots of pity plays. Nothing was quite good enough for her. My dad worked himself into the ground but there were still comments about ‘ our little house’ how much they have for retirement so now it’s “our little holidays, not as nice a hotel as you would stay in” There was triangulation, the fact my dad worked away and “I could have gone to college, or had this job, but I had you, and your dad worked away so I never got to do those things.” Very self centred on the face of it. I also suspect she had an affair but can’t prove it. On the NDC she might well read as an MMRB. Ironic, the online narc was also MMRB and we do tend to gravitate to what we know.

            The thing that makes me think the most that she might be an MMRB is my own behaviour. Mentally I cut off from her at around the age of 12. I remember the very day I took the decision. I remember the conversation. I only remember my age because my dad and I were in the car talking, driving away from our old house. I remember thinking, “That’s it, I’ll tolerate her, I’ll play the game, but I’ll never tell her anything again, just enough to keep her satisfied that she knows what’s going on, just enough and no more.” I think that’s quite extreme for a 12 year old. It’s not extreme for me as an adult, I have behaved similarly when in process of ending past relationships, but not with a family member, and not at age 12.

            On the other hand, she has been there for me. I can’t say I was subjected to regular verbal or physical abuse. I still maintain that she worries about my dad, more so now than ever. That could be fear of being left alone though, it might still be a selfish worry. If I need her, then my belief is she’s there. I just refuse to need her, so how could I know? She appears to love my kids, difficult to judge, I lived abroad when my kids were younger, they missed out on the babysitting and associated bonding. I still would say highly narcissistic for my mum, not narcissist. A narcissistic normal would display many of the same behaviours as a narcissist. Difficult for me to prove or disprove genuine emotional empathy.

            I’m considering the NDC but suspect I’ll show her to be a narcissist and might well overlook the non narcissist behaviours. Don’t know. I have faith in the NDC but for some reason I don’t have faith in it for her. Does it matter one way or the other? It wouldn’t change my behaviour, I closed down years ago. It would reinforce my lineage. Perhaps explain my own formation. Curiosity rather than need then. What do I gain really by knowing? Meh, don’t know, not sure. I’ll listen again to HG mauls the MMRB, that’s her if she is anything. Maybe I’ll click if I listen with her in mind.

            I’ve been here long enough, I should be able to work it out for myself by now!

            Xx

          25. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for sharing more of your experiences with regard to your parents. There was almost a total lack of pity-plays with muvver, it was groundless blameshifting / accusations. Your mother could have very well gone to work / college while you were at school, so she cannot really continue to use that.

            Maybe your father understood you very well when you were 12 and so he says those words to you then. He would also have seen through your mother’s behaviours as he got to ‘understand’ her.

            I have not had any DC done so I do not know whether the TDC would show enough for you to determine where your parent(s) sit on the ‘spectrum’ (referring to HG’s video ‘The Ultra Framework’)? You have obtained EDC, TDC (for yourself) and NDC (for the one you knew) so you know what questions there are. Only you can decide whether to proceed on DC. At least though, you would know and not have any lingering questions in the future, especially in regard to your mother.

            Having said that, something to maybe consider, your parent(s) may need you as they progress into their older years. Your kids would be able to help too. They do not need to know about narcissism, just why some behaviours may be present in any given ‘situation’.

            I hope this helps in some way 🙂

          26. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Truth,
            Thank you lovely for your very kind response. It’s only my ‘perception’ Truth (there’s that word again heheh) of how you come across to me. You have very strong values regarding morals and decency. You were extremely hurt and surprised when your friend abandoned you and you thought she would reciprocate in the same way you valued your friendship with her. She didn’t.
            You instil the same values with your children and are extremely protective of everyone you love.

            You respect yourself enough to see your friend because that’s just who you are and that’s pretty amazing.
            Your children have an extremely wonderful role model.
            I wish you all the best with your friend and hope you are able to let us know what transpires.
            Big hugs to you dear Truth 🤗
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          27. Bubbles says:

            Dearest AspEmp,
            Men are so much easier….(except if there narcs)
            I like easy 😂
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          28. Asp Emp says:

            Laughing……yes, I won’t argue with that point 😉 Thank you, Bubbles 🙂 x

          29. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            Thank you for your thoughts. Yes, that’s pretty much where I’m at too.

            If I took the NDC and discovered I was wrong and my mum is a narc then it would explain my own behaviour towards her. There is a bit of guilt associated with that if I think about it too hard. That said, I continue to fulfil my obligations. To all intents and purposes I’m a good daughter. It’s only me who knows and my dad who likely suspects that I’m emotionally removed from her. ENC Emotional No Contact!

            As you rightly point out, my parents aren’t getting any younger. The priority is my dad. If my mother was a narcissist then this poses a problem for the relationship with my dad. It would upset him if I cut off completely from my mum. Too much drama, my dad is a strong man but he has had a triple heart bypass only a couple of years ago. Different thing if she was upsetting me. Demonstrably she isn’t. My emotional defences have held up until now, I see no reason that would change.

            It’s curiosity really, a bit of guilt at not providing the mother daughter relationship she wants. I do wonder if my lack of feelings for her are warranted. if I’m in the wrong and she’s in the right. That said, we can have people in our lives that are toxic or whose personality is a direct clash to ours and I don’t believe that we are obligated to embrace them simply because they aren’t narcissists.

            Narc or no narc then, my approach would remain similar to how it is now.

            I think perhaps on this occasion My Truthseeker trait needs to be content not knowing!

            Xx

          30. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. Interesting to read what you say. It does sound as if you have made your decision RE: DC or no DC with regard to your mother.

            You are right in saying that people can have narcissistic people in their life – absolutely, it is impossible to avoid all narcissists / narcissistic people – ie in work, or using public services ie doctors, hospitals. But, one can change their doctor. One cannot necessarily choose their boss but can choose to work elsewhere. One can choose to shop elsewhere.

            When it comes to family / intimate relationships, that is where we are strongly advised to GOSO.

            However, in your case, it does sound as if you can (and have) managed it for so long.

            One thing that I noted from your words – about the mother / daughter relationship that your mother ‘wants’, and questioning whether your lack of feelings are warranted. In my opinion, there are 2 options – a) continue as you have done, or b) consult with HG and talk about your mother, the relationship you have with her, that way you may not need to go down the route of a DC. He understands enough about people and relationships. As you say, she may not be a narcissist. Thank you for sharing more of your thoughts on this 🙂 xx

          31. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Thank you again for your comment, it really helped. You’re exactly right there are only two choices.

            I think you’re right about me getting a steer on it in consultation. HG doesn’t know her, but he has a good idea about me, he has my detectors, there might be a very straightforward answer as to why I deal with her as I do. That might have far more to do with me than it does her.

            There are a few niggles I have about my own choices of late. Things that I do, that I have no intention of changing, but that I kind of want an explanation for.

            It might be time for my annual HG service!

            Asp? Thank you xx

          32. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response. I am glad to have helped you in some way. The thought direction where I was coming from was more to do with having peace within yourself. Maybe you could have a think back to some point in your past where it may have been an ‘event’, or a number of, that led to where you are ‘at’ now RE: mother / relationship. There may not be anything specific – just some points in preparation for your consult? At least, you’d be able to ‘rest’ on this aspect and if any change is needed, you’d be in a position to apply that. Would your parents be ok about having your children for a long weekend while you have some ‘me’ time, or with a friend (ie in the summer school break) – it is just an idea? Ok, I’ll leave that with you and hope you can get some answers for yourself. You are more than welcome, TS x 🙂

          33. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I hope you don’t mind me joining this conversation.

            For a long time I have wondered about your mother, for two reasons.

            One is that you seem to have distanced yourself from her and there is a disconnect.

            Two is the description you gave long ago of your mother’s mother, your maternal grandmother.

            What you have shared here, and elsewhere, in recent days definitely raises the question and up to this point in time you have defended your mother, accepting people can tip the narcissistic scale, but not actually be a narcissist. Certainly an NDC will likely give you the answer, but it could also shatter any illusions which at this moment in time you may not be prepared to have shattered. I’m only saying this because I see you pondering it, and in one sense you are clear that you have already handled the situation to the best of your ability and in a manner that seems to work for everyone. You’re obviously very concerned about your father and establishing a no contact regime with one parent while still attempting to have contact with the other would be difficult, if not nightmarish. More nightmarish would be the notion of cutting off contact with both parent’s. That doesn’t sound like where you are at, or even need to be at, having established firm boundaries from a very early age in relation to your mother regardless of her status.

            It’s interesting to me that so many people assume, and have often experienced, verbal and physical abuse by a narcissistic parent. Going by what else you have said, it certainly sounds like your mother lost control in the past at times and also laid her hands on you in a very threatening way, but narcissism can be insidious in a way where no hand is ever laid and no swear word ever spoken. You said my mother sounded “sly” and that’s a perfect description. The smiling assassin who goes under the wire and is even more despicable in some ways for that. I think it’s important for people to understand not every narcissist is abusive in the same way, and some can be very hidden. To the point we might even question ourselves.

            I shared a video link here a while ago here where two daughters of abusive narcissistic mother’s shared their stories in a conversation. Both well known, one an actress and one an esteemed Professor of Psychology and University lecturer. The beauty of this conversation was both women were just talking from their perspective of being victims and what that looked like for them. The other thing that stood out for me was that both women expressed an enormous amount of respect for their mother’s at an earlier age. I was the same. I thought my mother was the “bees knees” for a long time, and was completely taken in by her facade. Children will normally respect their parent’s to a certain degree naturally, but as much as I was affected by her behaviour, I still saw her as someone to be admired.

            This, I think, is part of the dissonance a narcissistic parent can engender in their child/children. The narcissist commands respect, even while they are abusing you. It’s hard to explain, but it happened to me. Partly because I didn’t know what I was dealing with and partly because I wanted or needed to be convinced that my mother was who I thought she was – someone who loved me and wanted to meet my needs.

            My mother hated her mother, and it’s a guarantee her mother was a narcissist, too. It’s not hard to see where the genetic disposition came from and how her environment also helped to fashion her. Having said that, it doesn’t mean I have to accept her treatment of me because I understand. You may have found a ‘sweet spot’ with your mother that keeps you at arms length while also being able to accommodate your father and his needs. Being an only child will create an imperative for you that I know I don’t have to consider, and you must do what’s best for you.

            I think you have a strong sense of who you are, TS, and the boundaries that go with that. You’re ensnarement with the narcissist/s indicates you have a vulnerability in that area which might be due to your parental past or heritage. The could be on the empathic side – your father’s – or the more narcissistic side – your mother’s. Sounds like you’ve had exposure to both and thankfully you are in the right place to get a handle on how to handle that <3 xox

          34. Asp Emp says:

            LET, thank you for your contribution to this conversation. I like what you say here 🙂 x

          35. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks, AspEmp 🙂 x

          36. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey LET,

            Of course you can add your thoughts, You have a strong sense of what makes me tick and here is no exception.

            You have hit on what I’ve been thinking about. What constitutes abuse? Times have changed, smacking was once acceptable for example, now it’s seen as abuse.

            I think I read the stories of others on the blog and think I don’t fit. I see those accounts as clear accounts of abuse, I don’t see my own experience in the same light.

            I have heard it stated that abuse is only an issue if it is damaging. Essentially, do I FEEL abused? If no then my situation is acceptable. Personally I think the concept is flawed but I do see the point the commenter was making. What is acceptable for one is not for another. My boundaries are different to your boundaries and so on.

            Abuse can take many forms as you state. Even more confusing if the abuse varies between family members as in your example. That’s when the parental narcissist is particularly insidious I think. Playing one child off against the other is just vile.

            The fact is I don’t feel as if my mother was abusive. Your reminder as to different narcs using different manipulations I think is definitely worth me considering further though.

            Yes my mum definitely had LOCE as a kid. Her mother died when she was young and her father was the one she detested. Almost certainly a narc. He farmed my mother and brothers out to relations, split them up and my mum’s story is not a happy one. Given her childhood, it’s possible that she didn’t really know how to be a mum. There was certainly no role model for her. The empaths here made truly caring mothers, despite the childhood LOCE but they are empaths, my mother isn’t.

            I’m definitely playing Devil’s advocate here! It isn’t that I’m concerned about my illusions being shattered. I respect what my mum did for me in terms of opportunities etc, but I didn’t look up to her. I’m very concerned that I give her a fair hearing. I’m also concerned that if she turns out to be a MMRB that my understanding of GOSO would influence my behaviour and impact my dad as a result. He is my priority above all else. You totally get my thinking there.

            That bloody video! Half of me wishes I hadn’t listened to it. I’ve been thinking myself inside out since!

            Thank you for sharing your thoughts LET, you’ve given me more to consider.

            Xx

          37. Asp Emp says:

            TS, having read your mother’s background, I can understand some more of the historical affects on your mother. She obviously did not have the ‘stability’, nor ‘security’ as a child and being split from siblings added to that. Consider this as partly why there may be a “disconnect” between you and her, she has not found a way of looking into her past and “resolving” (her traumas) it if you can understand what I mean? I achieved that, here, on KTN. You suggest that your mother is not an empath. Her emotions may / would have been ‘switched off’ from her childhood? I understand about your relationship with your father and you not wanting anything to impact on that. Maybe you would not need to go as far as GOSO? Consult with HG to aid you in the decision-making that you may be needing? He will advise whether to consider detector consultations, if any. There seems to be a need for something to stop the ‘shifting sands’ effect (in your mind) and offer you some more solid ground to stand upon and build-up on that?

          38. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I appreciate you clarifying around my thought processes and you raise an interesting question – what is abuse? Does it depend on our boundaries, or is it abuse regardless of how we view it? I have also wondered about my own sensitivities, and how different children may be impacted differently by a parent depending on their nature and personality. But, a narcissist is a narcissist is a narcissist. Their behaviours may at times be insidious, but when you come to understand them, it’s a guarantee the behaviour to undermine you as an individual is abusive. These behaviours would come under the headings of things we hear about regularly on this site, such as gaslighting, triangulation, back handed compliments, etc. They are messing with your mind, your sense of self, your self esteem, your sense of self worth. They are harmful and, as HG suggests, we must necessarily distance ourselves from people who manifest these behaviours if we are to not just survive, but thrive.

            Going by what you say, it’s possible your mother did not exhibit any form of gaslighting behaviour, there might be other reasons for your current stance, which in part seems to rest on one very significant occasion. You also recognise she had a difficult life growing up as a child and that might have impacted her negatively in terms of her abilities as a mother. I’m sure it can be very hard to determine at times, which is why we need the expert.

            The other thing is narcissists like my mother will often go under the wire for years because you can’t point to out and out abuse in terms of physical or sexual violence. I’m very glad we have begun to recognise emotional and psychological abuse, as well as the issue of coercive control which would fall under these. Those suffering from these types of abuse are often ‘invisible’ victims and can find it much harder to accept they are victims at all. Something is wrong, but it must be us as the narcissist makes our case almost impossible to prove.

            Mind games, that’s what I’d call it. My mother played mind games with me.

            I can see you trying to give your mother a fair hearing and I may have mixed up your grandparents, but I’m acutely aware of a grandparent you explained was abusive – perhaps it was your father’s mother? Or a grandparent who was abused?

            Forgive me for misinterpreting any of that, and loss of parent’s at an early age affected both my parent’s lives. My mother was also left with her narcissistic parent after her father died, my father suffered with being parceled out to relatives after his father caught his mother in an affair and kicked her out of the house. It’s very sad for them to have been so egregiously abandoned in more ways than one as children.

            You’ve got me curious now as to what video you watched. Some of them do act like a a curve ball and it can be a never ending peeling off of the layers. Only consider what you need to for now, TS <3 xox

          39. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            Thank you for your further thoughts here. Before I forget, the video that threw me into a tailspin was ‘An exchange with a parental narcissist.’ I have a very similar story about a conversation that took place over the phone when I was at university. That woman in the video really sounded a lot like my mum. That opened the door of possibility, then I started to travel back into my past and look at her behaviours from a different perspective.

            Your views about what constitutes abuse do echo what is taught here. I can’t disagree, yet I don’t fully agree. I would say that I was damaged but not abused by the online narc. I would say that I was neither damaged nor abused by the relationship with the MMRA. That’s just my personal view of what happened though. I am aware that others have had very different experiences and hold very different views.

            No need to apologise xx. The family history as regards grandfathers isn’t great. Both grandfathers were highly suspect. My paternal grandfather died before I was born. I was very close to my paternal grandmother. My dad would refer to my grandfather as ‘Not a nice guy.’ Short tempered, shouted a lot, was very strict with my dad and my auntie, used plenty of physical punishment, slammed doors, broke things, had a very cruel and sarcastic laugh.

            My maternal grandfather died when I was around 10 years old. I never met him. My mother didn’t go to his funeral and had purposely disowned him years prior. She describes him as abusive to her mum. When her mum was dying in bed, shaking with cold, he would go round the house and open all the windows. My mum would come home from school and the house was freezing cold. My mum’s memories of him were all bad.

            Yes, she did have an extremely sad childhood, she remains close with one sibling, has no contact with the other. The whole set up was very sad and very strange. Definitely a LOCE.

            I can feel very sorry for my mum as a child. No child deserves that start in life.

            Xx

          40. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, thanks for your reply, and it’s interesting that video reminded you of an experience with your own mother which caused you to look back and consider what that meant.

            We do interpret the notion of ‘abuse’ somewhat differently going by your explanation to do with past relationships and I think there is a reason for that, though I’m not sure if I could explain it properly here.

            In contrast to you, I do consider my last relationship abusive through a recognition of all the signs of the narcissistic dynamic and also the impact it had on me. The same goes for my ex-husband (who was also on occasion physically abusive), and my mother. It makes me think, how many times do HG’s articles render an account of a physical assault taking place? I would say very rarely. What hurts people, and damages them, is the insidious nature of the narcissistic dynamic which separates the victim from others, diminishes them, causes them to lose sleep, second guess, be overcome with anxiety, lack concentration, fear abandonment. They are the mind games of the narcissist, aware or unaware, so the narcissist can maintain control.

            I can only come to one conclusion: narcissistic relationships are abusive relationships. They are abusive because we are being manipulated and controlled in a manner that undermines us as individuals.

            That in no way should take away the notion of more obvious abuse that comes with verbal, physical and sexual assault, but for me it compounds the notion of what abuse is and how to recognize it.

            In my opinion, any lack of recognition in this regard means a lack of the ability to GOSO – get out and stay out. It is the fundamental reason to both avoid and leave these relationships if you are in one. That reason being they are abusive. If we don’t see it that way, we don’t escape, or are less likely to do so, and the narcissist gives us plenty of reasons to think we should stay with occasional respite periods, random hoovers, fake apologies, etc. We need an impetus to get out, and calling the behaviour abusive is the impetus many people need.

            I’m curious to know what ended your relationship with the MMRA narcissist in the circumstances, though the fact is plenty of relationships end without there having to be a narcissist involved. Ending of relationships, in that sense, doesn’t have to equal abuse. It’s the combination of the narcissistic dynamic with the normal dynamic of relationships that needs to be untangled sometimes.

            Thank you for clarifying around your grandparent’s, TS. It was your maternal grandfather, not grandmother as I had thought, and the story of him opening the windows to let in the cold when your grandmother was dying 🙁 I remember because that seemed so cruel, even sadistic. Both grandfathers seem to have had issues, and I was a little surprised to hear about your father’s dad since you obviously classify your father as an empath. Things could definitely have gone either way for both your parent’s in their LOCE environments.

            I can agree that no child deserves what our collective parents experienced in their childhoods. It can make it tough to separate those sad children in some circumstances from the narcissists they become. It’s where we need all the help we can get to do so, as an empath’s heart is always open to loving and caring, and wanting to heal and fix, as HG says. We can’t see the forest for the trees and need to draw back from the more emotional aspect of our nature at times.

            I see you are planning to talk to HG about your concerns and I hope it helps with any uncertainty, TS. Wishing you all the best, as always xox

          41. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Asp,

            Yes I agree, I think my mum would have had to switch off her emotions to an extent. Once someone switches off, very difficult to switch back on. Without a parental figure growing up, in many ways I would be the first person who was really hers. You’d think she would have remembered me then, rather than leaving me outside Dorothy Perkins in my pram and walking home haha! I did find that funny when she told me. I can’t imagine forgetting my baby while out shopping. Maybe there was a sale on!

            Shifting sands would be a good description of my head at the moment! I go one way then I go the other. Sometimes narcissist seems plausible, other times utterly ridiculous. You were right to suggest a consult, thank you for that.

            Xx

          42. Asp Emp says:

            TS, I have read your responses to LET (and hers back to you) before typing mine back to you. I can decipher that you are having a difficult time, so I do not wish to add to your ‘load’ if you can understand?

            Ok, here is my ‘take’, considering your mother’s childhood and what she went through. Regardless of whatever your mother is. What you say in your comment here prompted me to think……. You being the only child, and whenever you went to your friend’s house, did she feel ‘abandoned’, or was she ‘reminded’ of the lack of security / stability? This reminded me of HG’s article ‘The 5 Fears of the Narcissist’. It is not your fault, you were a child too – remember this and do not feel guilty about it, you were a child.

            Great, that you are having a consult (or will have done by the time you read this?). After that, you can decide on the next steps. Breathe, TS. You will be able to sort things out in time. You’re strong and I know that you can do this 🙂 x

          43. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey LET,

            I think your explanation of what abuse is, is entirely accurate, particularly with regard to why people don’t escape and why they might be vulnerable in terms of getting hoovered back in. For someone to view a situation that they are in as being abusive when previously they didn’t recognise it as such, might be what is needed for them to GOSO. I don’t disagree with you at all. You’re right also, very few articles refer to the more obvious forms of abuse, physical, sexual etc. Far more concentrate on the insidious, passive aggressive and controlling behaviours. I hadn’t heard of financial abuse before arriving here either. That was totally new to me.

            The element where we differ is more how we view our personal experiences. I see abuse in many of the accounts given on the blog. I agree therefore that narcissists are abusive. When it comes to myself though I see myself as being manipulated rather than abused. I don’t ‘feel’ that I was abused. I recognise that I was subjected to manipulations designed to secure the Prime Aims. Some of the manipulations are the same as those used against others here who would correctly state that they were victims of narcissistic abuse. I just don’t feel the same way about my own personal experience as a whole. In many ways I think the stories of others are far worse than my own. That has a lot to do with it too I think. They were abused so I can’t have been.

            The MMRA ( better known as best sex ever guy). Technically I left in the golden period. There was still great sex, surprise weekends away, dinner dates, gifts, flowers etc. I was met from work with a glass of wine, dinner already cooking. Compliments, protestations of love, suggestions of marriage and so on. He did used to comment about how big his ex wife’s boobs were haha! I think that’s the only obvious triangulation and only once or twice. He mirrored me by buying a very similar car to my own pride and joy. That irritated me but I think still places that behaviour within the golden period.

            He was monopolising me though. As soon as my car pulled up on the drive and I got to my apartment door, he was there. I’d mention a night out with friends and what do you know? He’d surprise me with a weekend away that very same weekend. I’d say I had work to do that night and he’d leave it an hour and show up with snacks ( for energy), wine ( for a break) all sorts. So he was doing his best to isolate me and monopolise my time, but doing it in a very MMRA way. I didn’t recognise his behaviour as manipulative. What I recognised was that I felt stifled. I really don’t like having my wings clipped, at all. Then, I would feel like I was being ungrateful because he was being so nice.

            The thing that ended it was a single event. I was going on a six month secondment to France. We discussed it and agreed I would fly back for weekends every second or third weekend but to settle, make friends, get to grips with the project I would spend 4-6 weeks there before the first trip back. If you say no to too many social events when you are new, pretty soon people stop asking. I needed to set myself up with friends, get used to the area, the ex pat thing, the project etc.

            Two weeks after I arrived he showed up at my office unannounced holding a huge bouquet of roses. That did it for me. It wasn’t sweet, it wasn’t romantic, it was an invasion of my privacy and a complete disregard for me, my needs, our agreement. He was there for him, not for me, doing what he wanted to do, no consideration for the situation that placed me in as far as timescales for the project, ( ridiculously tight) plans or commitments. That single event made me realise what he was doing and had been doing. I turned instantly. I was done in that same moment. I let him stay the weekend until his return flight and ended it before he left.

            The funny thing is that when I got back after the secondment, he had installed someone new in his apartment. My kitchen was above his lounge. He would have really noisy sex in his lounge, I swear I could hear every thrust whilst eating my spaghetti bolognese haha! He showed up one night when she wasn’t staying with him, Showed me pictures of his recent holiday with her etc. I told him she looked lovely and I was happy for him. He chanced his arm with “That could have been you. It could still be you.” Seriously? You have to hand it to the guy for the sheer brass neck of it. I politely declined but took the opportunity to give him his key back and ask for my own back. They were always at it and I hadn’t wanted to intrude since being back home. 😂

            Do you see what I mean? I can see I was manipulated, but can’t say I was abused. I think because I was away, that split was far easier than it might have been. Looking back on it, the fact that I moved around so much with work saved me on more than one occasion. I think it’s different when you are living with or have to divorce a narcissist or you have kids with a narcissist. That very much locks you in. It’s not insurmountable as HG says, but it’s definitely far more difficult to escape.

            Thank you for your good wishes with the outcome of my consultation with HG. I’m looking forward to it. I feel like I need a reset somehow.

            Xx

          44. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I appreciate your first paragraph immensely. Well stated x

            I see where we differ, and your description of the relationship with the MMRA feels overwhelming. OMG, he was totally OTT, and his boundary breaking behaviour has red flags written all over it. Killing you with kindess, and kindness you did not even want. He sounds very needy and desperate for your fuel! I think the fact you already hold strong boundaries really helped you in that situation. The alarm bells would have been ringing loud and clear. Being more self reliant would have definitely been in your favour in sussing that guy out and ultimately rejecting him. This is where empaths can fall down at times, we are too kind, lacking in strong boundaries, and people like that can keep pushing in order to wear us down, which it sounds like he was trying to do. I can imagine how unimpressed you were and only straight talk would have brought an end to his narcissistic shenanigans!

            I don’t want to impinge on your own understanding and feelings around that in terms of your past relationships and how we each perceive or experience abuse. You use the word manipulation, or being manipulated, as way to describe what happened to you. OTT guy was definitely trying to be manipulative, but you were on to him pretty fast. I’m sure that reduces the level of any impact. You got out and stayed out. We’ve had the conversation before about manipulation and how we view that, too. Where I think the difference might partially lie is in your empathic nature – Super – which strengthens you against the narcissist and impact the narcissist can have on you. I also think you shy away from seeing yourself as a victim. This is what I meant earlier when I said I wasn’t sure if I could explain the difference, but that might be it (from my perspective) in a nutshell. You are strong and capable and therefore unable or less likely to be victimised. You don’t see yourself as a victim as a child since you don’t believe you were an ACON, and don’t see yourself as a victim as an adult either. You contended with the circumstances and they did not defeat you. I agree, many people’s circumstances here were particularly harrowing and in many ways there is no comparison, for either of us.

            My experience of being an ACON was expressed more recently in comments to AspEmp which highlighted the insidious nature of my mother’s narcissism. No less damaging for me because it remained hidden, it still undermined me. And I did mention as individuals we would experience things differently and therefore be impacted by them differently also. In that sense, I respect your position on the term – abuse – and how it may be perceived.

            Thank you for sharing more of your thoughts around the topic, and I’m sure you’re looking forward to your consult xox

          45. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            You’re not overloading me lovely. In fact, the way you turn things around and look at both angles, my mum’s and mine is really helpful. It’s important to me that she gets a full and fair hearing, because I believe in that. Justice, cut me in two and I’m sure that would be written in the middle lol.

            It’s funny you should mention fear of abandonment. Her worst tantrums were linked to that. Me at university, boyfriends, preferring to spend time at my friend’s house than my own. There was a dislike of me being out of the house / independent. What she won’t have understood is why I wanted to be out of the house. The older I became, the more threats there were to her ownership of me. Difficult to say if it was ownership in the narc sense or fear of abandonment in a non narc sense. You are definitely right to raise this as a possibility though.

            Always happy to hear your thoughts Asp. I love the way you look at things. I find it thought provoking and also very supportive.

            Xx

          46. Asp Emp says:

            TS, I am awfully sorry, I have just seen your comment amongst communications with LET. I am glad you found it helpful RE: your mother’s behaviours when it comes to abandonment. I did wonder about the Co-D ‘element’ as LET suggested and I am glad she wrote that. As an outsider looking in – there are two ways of looking at this aspect – a) empath reaction = her fear of losing you takes her back to the lack of her stability / security as a child – hence her reactions but not necessarily being aware of the subconscious reasons why (her pain being ‘blocked’?), or b) narcissist reaction = a threat to her control. Obviously, there are other behaviours that can give ‘indicators’ either direction of the narcissism spectrum.

            This is obviously an issue for you, hence the reasons for you to have this resolved for yourself. And your children. Their relationships with their grandparents can be made easier (through your finding out for sure RE: your mother) and you can guide them too. Your children may have picked up on the difficulties that you are experiencing.

            Let’s say that your mother is not a narcissist, sounds like her father was one. She may not be up for discussing anything but you could talk with her about what you have learned about narcissism and why you went into learning the subject? As you can see from this blog and other comments, HG’s work was more than narcissistic abuse therapy in my case.

            Anyway, I hope you are doing better now? I’ll keep the link to this thread on my WordDoc so I can fin it again due to missed notifications. Hang in there, Super Empath! xox

          47. Truthseeker6157 says:

            LET,

            First and most importantly. Thank you for your understanding and acceptance. 😘 Your last comment meant far more to me than you might realise. I seem to be caught in a downwards spiral mood wise and reading your comment this evening felt very much like a lifeline.

            I’ve been having doubts of late, doubts about everything. For the first time ever, I have had to seriously question if I’m actually a narc. I have never considered that before, which is narcy in itself. I’ve thought about it a lot recently though. The way I am, things I do repeatedly, my lack of forgiveness, my turning or door slamming and worse, the fact that I have absolutely zero desire to change that behaviour. Lack of willingness to ever fully confide my history or my thoughts. My dark uncharitable thoughts, anger that bubbles away but is kept confined and nicely controlled, all sorts. I doubt. I have questioned the accuracy of the EDC and TDC, asked myself how a narc would self evaluate. Did I unwittingly trick the system through sheer self delusion? The problem is that if you doubt one thing, just one, that doubt infects everything else. The accuracy of an NDC for my mum, the relevance of even being here at all. The feeling, that once again, I find myself in the wrong place.

            Maybe you’re right. Maybe the Super in me does really show itself sometimes. I don’t know. I don’t really see myself as that school. I do everything I can to avoid admitting to having that school in my make up at all. I think the mid range kick ass version of it just makes me reject it even more. You’re right about the boundaries. I have certain things that I just don’t accept and will never ever forgive even if I think I ought to. You’re right also about the unwillingness / inability to ever see myself as a victim.

            I might be wrong in the way I look at my ensnarements, but the fact that you are willing to accept the way I view them means a great deal to me. You never fail to read into me and offer up suggestions as to why I see things a certain way, rightly or wrongly. No judgement, just acceptance. I’m horribly cloudy tonight but very thankful that you are here to listen.

            Xx

          48. lickemtomorrow says:

            TS, I’m very glad I could be somewhat of a shelter in your storm and at the same time sorry to hear you are going through a darker or more doubtful period. Those are trying times and also often times when we withdraw. That is sometimes necessary, but you have also done the necessary in grabbing the lifeline being held out to you – whether it be mine or someone else’s. It’s important to recognise these things <3

            " The problem is that if you doubt one thing, just one, that doubt infects everything else."

            To me, that quote is the start of the spiral. Doubt is infectious, and the questioning can lead us down a path of further questioning where we feel we can't trust anything we know – or thought we knew – and that is bound to alter our mood. How can we feel confident, bouyed, when we are filled with so much uncertainty? It's not possible. We will begin to feel the opposite and that will take a toll.

            Perhaps you recognise the place of the initial doubt and what caused you to begin questioning. Maybe in that moment you were not the person you thought you were or hoped to be. Perhaps there was a trigger that generated a more narcissistic response. Considering your School, I would imagine such a thing is not unexpected, and have experienced it myself, only later questioning whether I should have said or done something, whether I was right to hold a grievance, perhaps needed to be more forgiving. Then I look at myself in that moment and see, being who I am, I would not have done or said differently, I was entitled to hold a grievance and forgiveness is only possible if I desire to forgive.

            Sometimes we lose the balance we so dearly hold between empathic and narcissistic traits. That doesn't make us a narcissist. It makes us human. To be truly empathic all the time would make us 'divine'. Perhaps that's where the narcissist derives their sense of divinity from as they lack empathic traits to draw on. 100% of anything is going to cause us to feel God-like. In that sense, I thank my lucky stars I'm merely mortal.

            It may be you've tripped over that aspect of yourself and now are finding it hard to pick yourself up again. In that way, I have a sense you are judging yourself and quite harshly, too. Not in a million years would I perceive you to be anything but an empath, as well as the School and Cadres determined for you. I have to say that, because we don't always see ourselves as others see us. I never see you carry out 'pity plays' and so you hopefully will discount that from your concerns, and in an opposite manner to that you show your strengths but not in a boasting way, rather in way that you are reluctant at times to even speak about or acknowledge them.

            That is humility, and the narcissist is full of pride. I don't get that vibe from you – at all – and strong boundaries are not an indication to me of prideful behaviour, but self preserving behaviour. If you think about the situation with the narcissist, Super's appear to be the most inclined to self-preserve in the circumstances. They will walk away, without hesitation, and you remind me at times here that self-preservation is the reason. It's not to hurt or harm another, it's not to seek revenge down the track, it's simply to say that you know this relationship is not good for you.

            When you talk about 'closing doors', even forcefully, I think it's because you have a very strong sense of who you are, what you will accept and what you won't accept. That doesn't make you a narcissist. It makes you a challenge to the people who would seek to take advantage of you and ensures they don't get the opportunity to do that. As empaths we should not feel bad for dismissing or rejecting 'charlatans', no matter how sad their story or how deep our need to heal and fix. They will only use us and not seek to know us at all, even though they may give that impression at times for the purpose of gaining our trust.

            Without having HG's expertise, I can unequivocally state that I believe you are an empath and that is purely on the instinct inherent in my own empathic nature. Have I ever questioned that nature? Definitely. Do I understand now that I also have narcissistic traits that can override my empathic traits. Yes, I do. Should I judge myself to be unempathic and even a narcissist because I have light and shade to my character? Never. We are not God's, and as much as we cherish our empathy we need to accept the opposite to that also exists and it exists for a purpose. It's one part of our nature that sometimes helps to keep us safe. It's all about balance.

            Happy to be here to listen, TS, and hope you can banish those doubts during your consult with HG xox

        2. Another Cat says:

          Truthseeker, Asp Emp, really sorry to read what you went through with vanishing friends and so on.

          Truthseeker said:

          “That said, and in her defence, I don’t confide, so I am difficult to support.”

          This got me a little curious because one of my coworkers reminds me of you in general, reading your comments here through these past months. She is very easy to talk to, smiling, intelligent, her work is about supporting others, and she has also said this about herself, that she doesn’t share much. She supports and cheers up moods and I have wondered a bit who supports her.

          So my question is this, I’m curious: Do you have close ppl, like one or two, with whom you confide a little more?

          (When it comes to myself there are deep issues, namely narcissistic abuse, which I only mention to two people irl, grand sum total)

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Another Cat, thank you for your comment. Reading what you say about the co-worker, maybe she is the way she is because of her past? Maybe it is not necessarily about the lack of trust, maybe it is about the amount of pain (ie deep issues) and the amount of empathy she has? There are people who simply do not share absolutely every thing about their pasts because they do not wish to discuss it.

            I am sorry to read that you also feel the need to ‘limit’ who you can talk to. I can relate to that. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, interesting but not surprising to read 🙂

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Another Cat,

            Firstly, I’m flattered to that I remind you of your colleague, you speak highly of her, thank you for that.

            In answer to your question, I don’t really confide in anyone. I am not sure myself what the exact reason for that is. I’ve pondered it here on the blog before now.

            I am very close to my dad. He hasn’t done the EDC, but I know he is a far stronger empath than I am. I don’t confide in him, mostly because I wouldn’t want to worry him. He’s a real worrier. I tend to go to him though, even if I don’t confide what’s wrong, I still go to him to be around him.

            People confide in me, that’s my role really. I listen into what they tell me, kind of find where they are emotionally and drag them back up by the scruff of the neck haha! I never really feel that anyone is able to do that for me. There’s an element of me feeling quite alone in that respect.

            I think the idea of confiding also terrifies me though too. I almost take pride in not confiding. It’s almost a game. When I was at my lowest ebb, really low, no one knew. I was still immaculately presented, still cracking jokes, still functioning. It’s a performance and a shield. If I had stopped, confided how I felt to someone, I think I might just have unravelled completely.

            I’m not sure if your colleague is similar AC. If she is similar, sometimes just the presence of someone can really help. So if you sensed something was wrong, just being around her, easy neutral conversation, would make a difference.

            Xx

          3. Joa says:

            A very interesting conversation about friendship. Asp Emp, TS, Bubbles – it was wonderful to read your words and observations.

            TS closed again, oh no! 🙂

            I confess to something. When it comes to women: I don’t need girlfriends, but I’m glad they are! I have no requirements for them. I am happy to contact them, if they want to talk or need me in some way – I am. When they disappear for a month or six months, I don’t make a drama out of it. I know that they are preoccupied with something else, it is good, they are satisfied. Whenever, there is something unwell or I need to talk, we immediately reestablish contact and it is very close.

            They are: my sister and two girlfriends. Savior, Carrier and Dirty Empathy Carrier (my opinion). Together for decades 🙂

            Women – only empaths. The rest are is only acquaintances.

            When it comes to men – Narcissists dominate + one Normal (a long time ago I was very in love with him, but I lacked the courage then, it’s a pity, the best male friend I had, the only normal who could stand with me, but I was afraid to hurt him and I was afraid he would reject me.) I spend time with the Narcissists every day. Close, but always ready for a sudden turn of events. They are also relationships for decades – with greater or lesser intensity, depending on the needs.

            There are also women of Somatic Narcissists on the margins of my life. I ignore them. I avoid. I don’t notice. I am silent. Only basic polite phrases.
            For reasons unknown to me, it happens that they become obsessed with me. Tracking, slandering, lieutenants (sometimes cruel words are uttered “online”, even about my child…). It’s really amazing considering I really do NOTHING. Some women I don’t even know “live”. The fact, that I am a public figure and, for example, will appear on TV is enough. They lynch me in public, send their “admirers” to me, and at the same time write to me privately, wanting to make friends. I keep them at a BIG distance.

            I am an ordinary person, modestly dressed (even poor), natural. An average girl from the street, always with bundles and shopping bags or with dogs, always on the run and in a hurry, disheveled, not hiding my “boring” (for the world) interests. And women of completely different caliber cling to me.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            Joa, thank you for your compliment 🙂 I understand exactly what you mean RE: girlfriends. One of mine went off the ‘radar’ for around 3 / 4 years because of what she was going through (a very difficult narcissist ensnarement). It has happened more than once, she’d had another marriage to another narcissist. She’d vowed to never marry again (mainly financial related ‘decision’ and the emotional / mental ‘trauma’).

            What you say about females and the behaviours is interesting. I suppose women tend to be like that towards other women. Maybe it is the same with men and other men? Is it something that has been ‘in-built’ from the first humans on earth? Survival of the fittest? Instinctual ‘competition’? Insecurity / confidence based?

            Your last paragraph is good to read. You are confident, just being ‘you’ within your surroundings. I liked the word you used “calibre” 😉 I understand 🙂 It reminds me of referring to MRN about his wife being a ‘limpet’ 😉 Interesting that I used that (limpet on a rock) – probably empath ‘speak’ 🙂

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello Joa x,

            I’m similar, in that since around the age of 16, I’ve had far more male friends than female. I was badly betrayed by a close female friend around this time. My relationship with my mother was very strained too. I found men far easier company, still do to a degree. Less demanding, loyal, protective, very funny in a group. On the whole I think men bond far less through secret exchange and more through shared experience. That means far fewer personal questions (perfect for me) and a lot of fun. Admittedly I was the one they all confided in privately, because although they bond more through shared experience I think there’s also a need to share their concerns / deeper thoughts occasionally.

            I do have women as friends, but usually I find men easier. The blog is the exception. On the whole I find the women here really supportive and non judgemental. The anonymity helps with that too I think, but many of the women I speak to regularly here, I would still love to meet in real life. Empathic women are definitely warmer and more welcoming. Sadly I don’t know any in real life. I suspected one newer friend was empathic but changed my mind. I’m surrounded by normals as usual. You’re very lucky to have an inner circle of empath friends. 😊

            Xx

          6. Bubbles says:

            Dearest Joa,
            I have had more male based friendships than women especially in my early years. I do concur very much with Truth.
            A girlfriend at school stole a broach from me in primary school. I was devastated.
            I only ever had two close female friends at high school (all girls school) even though I was popular. I was class captain and then made a Prefect. I got on well with all my female teachers.
            I do find men are easier, they ask less questions, non judgemental, they’re not catty or bitchy, they have far more interesting topics to discuss.
            They’re not looking you up and down with what you’re wearing and comparing every little detail. They gossip less. They’re there when you need them and would take your mind off any problems and steer you in a direction you never thought of with clear concise easy and practical solutions. I found they also have a better sense of humour. They’re more punctual and just plain chilled. Also it’s lovely and possible to have just platonic relationships with men, you could go out and they wouldn’t put the hard word on you, you felt safe.

            My female group are a fun bunch and we never get bored as we have mutual interests and we always run out of time wanting more.

            Circumstances in life usually change your friendships along with maturity and just outgrowing each other. Dropping of the twig is another.

            Of course being a couple, most of our friends are couples and I get on well with both sexes.

            I understand why women cling to you Joa, to them you’re not a threat.
            But you are real and deep down they would like to be more like
            you.
            I luv your confidence Joa and the fact fact you are comfortable in your own skin, just keep on being you.
            💕
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          7. Asp Emp says:

            Bubbles, it was interesting but not surprising to read what you say here. RE: your words “They’re not looking you up and down with what you’re wearing and comparing every little detail” – laughing.

      3. Another Cat says:

        Truthseeker, I can’t seem to find reply buttons on appropriate spaces. I read about doubts and dark feelings in this thread, hoping you find release.

        After lots of nausea and worry, not yet budgeted an Empath detector test, this philosophical test gave me loooong relief:

        If you have ever sat alone, worrying about maybe being a Narcissist, then you are NOT one.

        Because that worrying did not give you fuel (A narcissist doesn’t put energy on nonfuelling activities). You were all alone in that room thinking to yourself. No audience, not conversing online with anyone, not on the phone, just pondering on your own.

  2. A Victor says:

    TS,

    Yes, or at least known that we could take control of our lives. I didn’t even have a clue that I could or should expect anything from my husband. I had no understanding of having any rights.

    I think we ourselves and others can sometimes expect us to progress at a rate, be it faster or slower, than is expected. I have worked very hard at fast-tracking this learning, I’m not getting any younger and the world’s not getting any more stable. So I step out despite my fear sometimes, and learn some more.

    1. Truthseeker6157 says:

      AV,

      Yes, I think I’m quite tough on myself in general when learning something new. Impatient. I’m the same across the board, even at the gym I have to be reigned in so I don’t injure myself by doing too much too soon.

      I hate evaluation, I hate the feeling of being evaluated but actually, the evaluation and criticism comes from me, not from the outside. Give me a time frame or a target and I have to beat it. So in terms of recovery, I was very frustrated with myself along the way. The problem here is, you can’t put a time on recovery. If a person has an addiction, technically there isn’t even a finite end point. It’s an ongoing process that is very different for different people.

      Being ready to get back out there, likely looks different to different people but for me there was definitely a tipping point where all of a sudden I realised I was content again, accepting of my lot and therefore far less susceptible to being caught again.

      That said, I went to a dance class tonight and met a girl who is from the area where I grew up. We chatted after class and I’m meeting her for a bite to eat and drinks on Wednesday. I’m looking forward to it, we share the same sense of humour, two fish out of water in a way. Then I thought, “Met her on Monday, drinks on Wednesday, hmmm, good job she isn’t a guy!”

      Xx

  3. Asp Emp says:

    “People understand me so poorly that they don’t even understand my complaint about them not understanding me” Soren Kierkegaard

    Perceptions.

    1. Another Cat says:

      Funny you should mention it Asp Emp. I have been through the following a couple of times in life:

      I suggest something. The other person says “No no no. It was like this instead:”
      Then they say the same thing I said, sometimes even using the same words I did.

      Me: “So did x go to y?”

      They: “No no no, Cat! Rather, x went to y!”

      Maybe they have a hearing problem, or I speak quietly. Or it’s an empath thing.

      1. Asp Emp says:

        AnotherCat, thank you for your response. That made me laugh “maybe they have a hearing problem” – I totally ‘get’ that, despite my “hearing problem”, I used to have the thought of ie ‘god, they’re deaf, or fick’. Now, I realise it’s a perception ‘thing’, and / or gas-lighting. Yes, the ‘word salads’, twisting what you say and then “going back” to what you initially said. The mind boggles! There are times when I have said “That is what I meant in the first place”, or “That is what I said” (challenge ‘mode’ – no wonder they had a “problem” with me). LOL. It’s instinctual, the ‘provoking’ in order to achieve fuel by initially ‘confusing’ (word salad ‘roundabout’ via asserting control) you then observing you as you start to ‘bubble’ with annoyance, or cry with frustration (extraction of fuel). And they get ‘off’ on it!

        I know exactly what you mean “or it’s an empath thing” – the ‘in-built’ “system”, it’s so good to now finally understand what it actually is and how powerful it can be when we know how to use it (just for the hell of it, the ‘smiling assassin’, smirk, LOL) 😉

    2. Truthseeker6157 says:

      Asp,

      Hey, you ok?

      Xx

      1. Asp Emp says:

        I’m fine, thanks for asking, TS. I just liked the quote.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Good, just making sure Asp Emp x

          I feel that way sometimes too, It’s one of the reasons I don’t bother confiding, a lot of the time people don’t get my point anyway! I find normals frustrating in this sense, narcs will pretend they understand only if it serves their purpose and empaths are few and far between. I’m a bit more philosophical about it these days. My thoughts are my thoughts, explaining them isn’t always necessary or even beneficial.

          Xx

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Thank you TS. Since my ‘learning’ on here, I have noticed that I am ‘observing’ others more when I communicate with them in person ie in shops and it is interesting to notice how they communicate back can give indications. I do find myself wondering what I am dealing with, either way, I am more observant and I get satisfaction at times 🙂

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp

            The Virtues Of Keeping Your Mouth Shut!

            There’s a lot to be said for just taking your time and not diving in when you first meet someone most definitely. I’ve seen some horrendous behaviour from people in shops, customers and assistants alike.

            HG returned my Show Me The Empath list yesterday. I am no better at spotting famous empaths than I am famous narcs! However, what I am good at is spotting and responding to poor behaviour. Poor behaviour is poor behaviour and really, it doesn’t matter if that behaviour originates from narc, normal or empath, it’s still poor behaviour, and I’m well within my rights to react or walk away when I see it. Deliberating too much about whether the individual is a narc or not in some ways only serves to slow my reactions down. I think there’s a balance that we need to find.

            Something that is unacceptable to me, might not be unacceptable to someone else and that’s fine, I’m not the someone else. I can only do what is right for me and make my call within the parameters of behaviour that I find acceptable or unacceptable. I accept that I’m not going to be correct on my assessment every single time, but I’m at least going to be true to myself and my values and actually, I think I’m ok with that.

            Xx

          3. A Victor says:

            Being true to myself and my values has not been a problem for me, when I knew what they were. I have no CoD, perhaps that helps. Good comment TS.

          4. Asp Emp says:

            TS, sorry I did not see your comment previously as it did not come up on my notifications. RE: your last paragraph, I agree, I would suggest that is similar to my own mindset. Sometimes it is only through recognising (and ‘living’) through ‘trials and errors’ as part of the learning of life. I would rather be the person I am today, compared to where I had ‘been’ for so long.

            What I am thankful for, though, is having the time to process what I needed to. Now that Spring is on it’s way, it is almost like a new ‘start’. I suppose when it reaches the point of being ‘comfortable’ within yourself and not knowing exactly what the future holds, at the same time, having gained the wisdom to be able to walk the path of the unknown without fear.

            Thank you for sharing your views with me, TS 🙂

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            Thank you 😊

            I think traditionally I have been true to my self. Then at times on the blog, I read myself back as being less forgiving than most, or, less empathic I suppose. I don’t really give much benefit of the doubt to people generally. I don’t necessarily mean people here on the blog, just people in general. I’ve seen that as a bit of a fault, but I think I’m at the point now where I just think, it’s the way I’m built so I should accept it and work with it rather than thinking I ought to be someone I’m not.

            Xx

          6. NarcAngel says:

            TS
            I agree with you in general on this. In some cases it is beneficial to know exactly what/who you are dealing with (workplace, divorce proceedings, etc), but for the most part I am unconcerned with looking for or nailing down the specifics. As you say – poor behaviour is poor behaviour. Once you encounter it and determine there is a pattern affecting you adversely, you remove yourself or limit your interaction as much as possible regardless the label (narc, normal, empath). I’ve been treated worse by some empaths than narcissists haha.

            I read people saying they have become jaded or untrusting and are afraid to get back out into the world again. Understandable, but very sad that a previous experience could continue victimizing one in this way. We are meant to live our lives, and that may mean we will encounter others who will at the very least disappoint us, and at the worst attempt to, or take advantage of us as we once were. The difference now (for those who have found their way here) is that we have the knowledge, tools, and support to make a correction if needed. My hope is that people will return to living fully while honouring their intuition. To exercise caution when they encounter dismissiveness and disrespect no matter who delivers it. Narcissists have to believe they own us until one of us dies. We don’t have to.

          7. Asp Emp says:

            NA, thank you for writing that comment. It was good to read.

          8. A Victor says:

            I understand this ongoing victimization. Getting out from under it is a process and the process takes longer for some than others. There could be some variation due to the length and depth of the ensnarement, the type and number of narcissist(s), the type of empath, how far they are in their knowledge/growth process etc. Each person will be different.

            It is nice to have a safe place to express our fears, get some support, encouragement, information, understanding. The goal is to not need HG or the blog at some point, not that we won’t come because we want to be here sometimes, but to not need them, to really live, is my goal. Until I get to that point, the fear is real.

            I don’t know what I can trust, I don’t trust my own intuition, it has failed me more than not to date. I agree with you that this is very sad. I suppose people can look at me as immature, damaged, broken, jaded, untrusting, afraid, but I don’t see myself that way, I see myself as a person who has lived in the dark but is being enlightened. Because of that enlightenment, I am headed toward success, even if I never have another romance, I will be a better person for having been here. I’m already a better person for it.

            At this time, I don’t resent or reject my fear, I allow it to spur me on to better things, I trust the day will come when I may still have that fear, but I will have built enough confidence and courage to overcome it and take steps out of my comfort zone toward a fuller life. In the meantime, I will remember that sometimes the expression of fear is a way of releasing it, and the having of it can be a motivator. Therefore, it isn’t necessarily only a sad thing.

            I understand that your comment was not aimed at anyone, or at least not to my knowledge, and certainly not personal to me. I just wanted to offer another view.

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:

            NA,

            It’s funny you should draw the line between my comment and people feeling nervous about moving forward with their lives. I was thinking the same the other day when chatting on the ‘weird’ thread about how the online narc caught me.

            I’ve been caught twice, both times I was at a low ebb. I was at points in my life where I was already feeling lost and isolated. We’ve described it on the blog as bleeding into the water.

            HG tells us to leave it at least 6 months post escape before commencing another relationship. The thinking being that ET needs to fall to reduce risk of another ensnarement. That man never wastes his words and he’s totally right with this. For me, it’s not just about ET falling, it’s about being at a point where I’m happy within myself. Content with myself, happy seeing friends, doing things I forgot I enjoyed, making my life full, without anyone new in it. It’s the difference between ideally wanting a relationship (if that’s what you want) and needing a relationship. Needing is when we’re bleeding into the water I think. Needing someone to make us feel better, needing to fill a void, whatever it might be. If we feel that need then we aren’t ready, and we are at risk of another ensnarement.

            Once we get to the point where we are content with our lives as they are, then our ET is likely already low. We cut the risk further by being in a more logical and clear headed state of mind when we do actually meet someone new, be it friend or romantic interest. We are more likely to spot red flags, poor behaviour and rule people out on that basis because we don’t need that person in our lives, we are instead choosing to include people in our lives. Or not. We’ve taken back control essentially.

            In addition, our awareness of narcissism and how the dynamic works works is now in place. It wasn’t before we got here. If in doubt, we can even run an NDC after a few months, the HG green light if you like.

            We have an addiction yes but we can take so many steps to cut risk and manage it effectively. It takes time though to get to the point where we are happy with our lives as they are. It might be six months, it might be two years it might be five, it doesn’t matter in the whole grand scheme of things. I think it’s at that point though that it’s time to move forward with new relationships or friendships. Life is for living I agree. Allowing the past to dictate the future is the narc winning. I’ll be damned if I ever allow that to happen.

            I agree with you, I have witnessed and been at the receiving end of poor behaviour from narcs, non narcs and probably even empaths. The response is the same each time, walk away, there’s nothing positive to be had with that person. Understand and stick to your own boundaries. I agree also if you are confined to having to interact with an individual in a workplace or familial setting, then it is helpful to classify that individual more accurately. In general terms though, poor behaviour is good enough for me to make the call.

            I do understand why people fear becoming ensnared over and over, but I really feel that empaths shouldn’t be nervous about getting back out there. There is no need to ‘tone down’ our empathy in any way at all. I say we should go out there light blazing, just at the right time and with awareness.

            I love your point about honouring our intuition also. Absolutely, intuition is at our very core I think, couple that with the logic learned here and we’re in a very strong position. No need to be fearful, just perhaps a need to be patient with ourselves.

            Xx

          10. A Victor says:

            “We’ve taken back control essentially.” In order for this to happen, sometimes, some of us, may need to realize we’ve never actually been in control, and then learn what that looks and feels like, practice it, get comfortable, gain confidence with it and then own it. But the first step is recognizing that we haven’t had it. I thought I was in control of my life, but I never was, I have come to see that here.

            I am patient with my fear.

          11. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Any time. I love listening to the way you see things.

            Yes, we have been extremely lucky to have had the time to process things gradually. There was no risk of us venturing out before we were ready because Covid forced us to stay home!

            I think we’ve both done what many here do as they read and understand more about their empathic selves. We dismantle ourselves into little pieces, then reassemble ourselves as new and more well rounded versions. Some bits we throw out, some we throw out then add back in later and some bits are shiny new upgrades, new eyes, sharpened senses whatever it might be.

            If we stay long enough and give the learning time to settle, I think we end up being far stronger than we have ever been. Calmer, more content. Which is a bit funny really given that narcs are envious of our contentment!

            Me too, I’m looking forward to the spring. I’m happy with my life as is and very hopeful for the future. I’m really glad you feel similarly Asp, you’re a good egg, and you deserve to be happy.

            Xx

          12. Asp Emp says:

            TS, thank you for your response, good to read your comment. RE: “I love listening to the way you see things” – thank you.

            It was easier for me to process my new understanding about myself and my learning simultaneously – like ‘swapping’ old for new if you like. It is interesting in how much unnecessary ‘psychobabble’ that negative past memories ‘fogged’ and ‘clogged’ up so much of the mind and emotions. The ‘trapped’ child I had ‘retained’ because of unresolved understandings from my young age is not so trapped now, the loosening of the noose / breaking of the chains so to speak. Allowing and facing my ‘trapped’ aeon-age traumas to come to the fore helped a great deal (the ‘dismantling’ and ‘reassembling’ that you speak of). Nothing can actually be ‘thrown’ out but it can be ‘compressed’ and ‘archived’ – labelled ‘dealt with’. I am not invincible yet am stronger than I have ever known myself to be and I know enough to remain and continue to be ‘me’.

            RE: “you’re a good egg, and you deserve to be happy” – thank you for that, TS, I really appreciate it 🙂

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp,

            Yes, ‘dealt with’ is a better way of looking at it. Those experiences happened, so are part of who we are, but the emotions associated with them are dealt with and no longer impacting us as we move forward. That’s a better way of describing it I think.

            I agree, inaccurate information, psychobabble, and professionals that lack the understanding to support victims of narcissistic abuse, prevents victims from processing and dealing with what has happened to them. I can understand that pent up emotions and confusion from the past needs to be let out rather than pushed down. ACONS have far more to process in that respect I think. It must be very freeing though when that process is complete and an ACON realises, “It wasn’t me. It was them.”

            All of that takes time and I hope people allow themselves that time. It’s really encouraging to know though, that in the end and with the right support and accurate information, a full recovery can be achieved.

            Xx

          14. Asp Emp says:

            TS, RE: inaccurate information = I only ‘learned’ what I was ‘given’ as a child. I think the teachers at the pre-secondary school ‘knew’ but did not know how to ‘proceed’ (ie social services were very lacking back then). The teachers were absolutely fab with me after my father died. I have a picture I created prior father died and the teacher did all she could to ‘motivate’ me to finish it in the months after he passed. I still have it, hung on the wall in my house (in an off-set room). The colours have not faded.

            “professionals that lack the understanding” – even worse when it is a narcissist therapist. He was crap. Second one was for “anger management” at the behest of a narcissist boss. Go figure. She did her ‘job’ brilliantly (a non-narcissist) and informed me accordingly (basically an indirect fku to the boss). Years later when I see him in a store somewhere, he learns from me that I have Aspergers (like a fku from me to him). He ‘slapped’ my arm a bit too hard that it hurt and I think he was observed by someone else, probably was asked to leave that job. I never said anything to anyone. Fk him. Weeks later, I observe him walking past where I worked at that time. Interesting. Coincidental. Again, fk him.

            I had always ‘known’ it was not me. But I could never understand why I was not ‘loved’ as much as my sister was. I am so glad to have known and be loved by my father and grandmother. I ‘hold’ onto that as positive memories.

            It was the “understanding” why, that ‘alluded’ me all my life until I came to HG’s blog. He had the ‘answer’ and the ‘key’. I have now ‘unlocked’ my past.

            A full “recovery” can never be achieved. It can only be “understood” and how that is managed is similar to how one manages their ET by applying and using the correct LT as appropriate to the LOCE at that moment (the ‘now’). Granted, some LOCEs cannot be “managed” but that is what ‘strengthening’ oneself is all about by application of the right thing, the right moment, the right person ‘approach’.

            Thank you for your views, good to read, TS 🙂

          15. Truthseeker6157 says:

            AV,

            Yes, you’re right, some empaths ACONS especially, might never have had control of their lives and decision making. Absolutely, as you say that takes time and patience.

            I think sometimes we think we should be further along in the process or, should understand more, get everything right. Maybe it’s just me that gets annoyed with myself. I’m not sure! I’m getting a little bit better with that, a little bit!

            Xx

          16. Another Cat says:

            Truthseeker said

            “That said, we can have people in our lives that are toxic or whose personality is a direct clash to ours and I don’t believe that we are obligated to embrace them simply because they aren’t narcissists.”

            Oh Boy, Oh Yeah, amen to that.

            This learning and knodledge I gained from HG through the years, helps me recognise narcissists as I encounter them. Also makes me understand when someone is not.2

            And the stress and headache over feeling like accepting someone just because they are not a narcissist, even if they have a strong temper, are easily irritated, a coward, or something else.

            I’m tired of putting myself through that.

            Some empaths/normals are lieutennants to some narc in their life I don’t know about,

            some are jealous,

            some are daily hissy fits at work.

            I try to be very patient with folks in general. But starting to give myself permission to avoid troublesome ppl, whether narc or not. There are many many nice individuals out there anyway!

        2. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Asp,

          “ The colours haven’t faded” that made me both happy and sad at the same time. X

          To question why you weren’t loved as much as your sister was must have been so confusing as a child, it’s so sad and it’s so contrary to a normal parenting instinct too. As a mum, you recognise that your children are different but there’s no difference in the amount of love you have for them. One can be repeatedly driving me up the wall ( as teenagers sometimes do) while the other is going through a chill spell haha, but that doesn’t influence my love. Narcissist parents are parents via biology, that really is as far as it goes.

          When you say LOCE in the now, do you mean situations that you find yourself in now that you aren’t sure how to handle? I just wanted to clarify what you meant there please?

          I’m glad you found your answers Asp Emp, I really am.

          Xx

          1. Asp Emp says:

            TS, I would suggest that ‘confusion’ was not how I experienced it, because I did not understand “confusion” as such at a young age. It was more of ‘hurt’, ‘anger’ – why hurt me, I understood upset feelings, physical pain, rejection, shouting at me, breaking / damaging my things – that ‘mattered’ to me etc. Physical pain = emotional torture = mental torture = re-programming = anger and more anger, for years. It is not nice to carry that around and not understand why I carried it without being able to ‘let it go’. KTN blog = the space to release it.

            I needed support (disabilities), nurturing. Father gave that. Muvver did not bother to obtain even a telephone adapted for Deaf people, my friends had them, I didn’t. Why? Muvver did not bother going or taking me to Social Services for financial support to get equipment. Yes, she made sure I attended appts at London hospital for my hearing aids check etc – even then, she missed some of those appointments! I obtained my hospital records from when I was a toddler to when I moved from London, there was much “information” in there that I found out. I questioned her on a couple of things. Ie reading in there about her over-dosing at 6 months pregnant. It was also in there that I read I was born starved of oxygen (effectively had to be ‘revived’). She was not obviously “looking after her unborn baby”. That was part of my ‘anger’ and it is perfectly acceptable and understandable. It was also in there about my father wanting me to go to that school, wanted me to have better hearing aids. Clear and distinctive actions of both parents. I have since destroyed the records.

            Yes, the ‘now’ = LOCEs. If you think about it, everyone has “LOCEs”. Situations, incidents etc that can occur anywhere, any time, with anybody. I can refer to what you say “One can be repeatedly driving me up the wall” as a prime example, even though I know you, as a mother would deal with that in your own way. It is how it is handled, responded to (or not). It does not necessarily mean your household is a LOCE. Even Ralph may do something to cause a ‘LOCE’. You gave another example, the call to the teacher / school, that in itself was a ‘LOCE’, you gained back your control in that respect. I’m just applying my lateral thinking (no surprise ;-)).

            Thank you for your words, TS 🙂

          2. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Asp Emp,

            The loss of your father in those circumstances must have been absolutely devastating. That feeling of being left with just her. As I read your comment, it struck me that muvver was taking the opportunity to keep you isolated. The extra equipment that you were entitled to would have enabled better communication. You could have chatted with friends on the phone, you would have felt less apart from everyone else in the day to day social interactions. Denying you these things, I think was a way to keep you isolated.

            We understand isolation in the romantic sense, in your case I believe it was isolation at the hands of your muvver. She took full advantage of your disability and no doubt told everyone how difficult her life was because of this same disability. Narc parents to me are the absolute epitome of disgusting.

            I can fully understand your anger Asp. You are fully entitled to it. Carrying anger around with us just eats away at us in the end. We aren’t designed to hold on to it indefinitely. I’m really glad HG enabled you to let go of it. X

            Ok, good, haha I was understanding what you meant with LOCE in the now. Yes, there are plenty of situations where we can feel out of our depth or out of control. I think this is when we are most vulnerable. Once we have accepted what happened during ensnarement and we get back onto an even keel with our ET, we aren’t bleeding into the water as we once were. I agree though that we definitely need to recognise when we are experiencing a LOCE in the present because our ET does rise in line with it and all of a sudden, we’re back to being more vulnerable again.

            LOCE can seem silly to other people too. For me, my kids exam time puts me in a period of LOCE. I feel my ET rise, I recognise that feeling now and can put a name to it. Understanding how ET feels and when it’s likely to happen is part of keeping our defences up. It’s like an ongoing maintenance project. Like with old houses. Great, I’m an old house now haha! In this way I think you’re right, perhaps we are never fully recovered, just better insured against narc damage!

            I’m going to ask to consult with HG just as we go in to exam time. That way he can give me a logic boost to offset the ET rise. ET management is a real thing!

            Xx

  4. Asp Emp says:

    RE: ‘The Osbournes Want To Believe’ programme. Orh me god, you gotta love Ozzy. He’s sat there saying things like “It’s a (BLEEP) aeroplane”…….”It’s (BLEEP) nuts”….. that is how the subtitles on the TV appear, how fu*ken boring. Yet, I did not stop laughing, crying with laughter…..Jack is trying not to laugh…..then Sharon does a couple of BLEEPs herself….. This programme does not always have subtitles available but it did tonight. Apparently, this particular episode was boring for hubby & wife and they said so too (LOL). Interestingly for me, the ‘Mandela Effect’ was mentioned and a number of examples were shown and I was not surprised by the results of public voting. There was a clip of a “ghost” in a church that looked awfully similar to the one “ghosting” in the aeroplane and I thought that, before Ozzy actually stated as such.

  5. leelasfuelstinks says:

    Exactly what can be seen in my home country now! They believe their lies, they fall for their false promises, they don´t see the contradictions, they fell for they future fakes and many are paying with their lives and their health.

    1. ava101 says:

      Fully agree.

      Funny how you mention this now, 1,5-2 years ago, when I was asking a narc related question regarding this, I was attacked on this very website just for asking (by a group self proclaimed empaths, telling each other how right they were to believe “authorities” – attacking me for thinking, instead of attacking those who might have affected them through mal practice in hospital, which they will never k ow, because they had accepted orders).
      Well, it still goes on nation wide in each country, so actually world wide, – the manipulation and mind control and abuse patterns, people still not seeing it. Obvious manipulations, yes, cintradictions, hypnotic speech, misleading false logic, constant turns, blame shifting,……

      Not just your country, everywhere.

      Huuuuge demos and convoys this weekend, horrific police actions and military style presence in Paris – – people don’t even know about it. Because they only want to see what people in control, who profit from it all, show them. on TV. It’s not Stockholm syndrom, it’s a full trauma bond abuse pattern.

      Like – for example, when I watch Trudeau, I see his polished rhetoric and mimic, every single word and body language in control, the language patterns are very clear to the trained ear, all the while keeping the appearance of his school teacher persona, talking down to people. And some people fall for it and attack those who fight for their basic human rights.
      A good speech was that of the Canadian guy who had co signed the charter… not heard by everyone as he was appealing to individual responsibility, not being blinded.

      1. leelasfuelstinks says:

        Indeed noticed that many Empaths are in fact following and believing the “authorities”. They believe that they do the right thing, they see the good in people and the authorities, they believe that the government is honest, they cannot or do not want to see that they are conned, that all this shit is a huge big scam!

        I personally was a real text book example: I sensed very early on that “Hey, wait a minute! Something is fishy here.” So, I decided to draw the line in the sand and not to play along. And as time went on, I decided that enough is enough. There! Classical text book example!

      2. leelasfuelstinks says:

        And before I forget it: Truck Fudeau and Let´s go Brandon! 😁😉 We´re not gonna take it, no, we ain´t gonna take it! 👊

  6. Poison says:

    Perhaps it’s because I’m 0% Super as type and 0% Saviour in cadre–but I honestly can’t fathom what the empath at the centre of this story thinks they would accomplish by attempting to publicly protest someone who privately harmed them. Is this not what whisper networks exist to tangle with? Airing “dirty laundry” in public will only get one socially shamed and smeared, especially when dealing with a narcissist. I can’t see any logic to staging a protest, as it cannot possible achieve the stated goal of outing the narcissist for others’ sake.

    Can anyone explain what I’m missing? I’m very curious to try to understand.

    1. A Victor says:

      Hi Poison, the dichotomy between their public persona and what those of us very close to them see is absolute. It’s frustrating that others can’t see it, often it injures our pride or our trait of honesty or justice, it can hurt especially when it has involved smearing of us, heaping abuse upon abuse.

      There were, and still are, times when I wished I could get people to see the truth about the narcs that have been in my life, it’s so unfair that everyone thinks they’re so perfect when I lived, or currently do live, with them and they are horrible. I hate watching them get fuel from others. Or residual benefits. I hate watching them manipulate others and seeing others fall for it. I want to tell these people sometimes “See, right now, there it is, he/she’s doing it!”. But not only will no one believe me, those people will jump to the narcs defense and “rescue” the narc from me, leaving me look like the bad person. I learned long ago, when I was a child, it wasn’t worth it to try, no one will see it, unless they live with it. No one will help me, only them. I

      I hope this helps explain it. If you don’t already have them, there are some things in the Knowledge Vault about the facade that would explain it further to you. I found, still find, it a difficult concept to explain but a very real one that I deal with, important to understand.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Excellent comment, AV. I concur. We want to unmask them for the sake of truth and justice, but often that will only lead to more pain for us as the narcissist must always win and their facades keep them safe. Not to mention the narcissist’s army who will defend them come hell or high water. I also have given up the notion of unmasking in the circumstances. GOSO is the best option and hopefully we can lead by example. For those who remain ensnared we can only remember we were once where they are and had the wool pulled over our eyes, too. Sometimes a brave person will succeed and then we have a division between the believers and non-believers of the facade. It’s rarely going to be a full exposure. Rare cases do exist, such as that of Jeffrey Epstein. In fact, there are a number of high profile cases more recently where there is no coming back from the destruction of the facade. Others will escape justice regardless of the demolition imposed by the avalanche of naysayers who suddenly appear out of the woodwork once the first brave person speaks out. How many people does the narcissist have in high places or below them to help cover for them? Exposures are happening, so there is some hope the most egregious of them will be exposed, but generally the ‘little people’ have no hope and need to just walk away, albeit with a bitter taste left in their mouths.

  7. NarcAngel says:

    This very dynamic is played out here on occasion.

    1. A Victor says:

      I had that exact thought reading this article this time.

    2. WhoCares says:

      Haha, NA!

    3. Leigh says:

      I was thinking the same thing but didn’t want to say it.

      It almost seems that Mr. Tudor has posted this article on purpose.

    4. Violetta says:

      NA:

      Clarify, please. Can you give some examples?

      1. Poison says:

        I’m curious about this allusion too. Perhaps us noobs will just have to wait to see it play out in front of us!

        1. Another Cat says:

          Hi Poison

          There are a couple of Midrange Narcissist commenters here on Narcsite. Very few, I found, but they are here.

          Often recognized by being ‘too much’, quite tiresome, lots of cliché statements. I guess as long as they stay within the rules, HG lets them be here.

          Many of us learn to never answer or comment on their comments. No contact.

      2. Leigh says:

        Hi Violetta & Poison, my interpretation of this comment is that there are bloggers on here that can’t always see that Mr. Tudor is a narcissist, devoid of empathy. I think they think because he has high levels of cognitive empathy and is trying to be more pro social that it somehow makes him a good person. He’s really just an evil person doing good things because it serves his purposes. Not everyone can see that.

        I don’t know if that’s how NA meant it but that’s how interpreted it.

    5. Z - zwartbolleke says:

      NA, as ever: 👌🏻 spot on!!

    6. Violetta says:

      NA:

      I can’t remember who recommended this; maybe it was someone on here, possibly you, but does the HeartlessBitches “rant” “You Think That You Are So Special” encapsulate what you mean?

      If there are conversations on here that give a better idea, please link me.

    7. Truthseeker6157 says:

      More so KHG I think.

      People buy into different things. The greatest cynic of one aspect could be the most staunch supporter in another. It just depends on the hook.

      1. A Victor says:

        TS, it happens on here too. Whenever a rudimentary element of the dynamic is denied or not seen, here or anywhere else, it’s this outcome.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          AV,

          After having read Another Cat’s response to Poison, I think I’ve misunderstood the original comment from NA so please disregard my comment above.

          In terms of narcs on the blog, I’ve only seen the real obvious ones, haven’t seen any on the KHG side.

          Xx

          1. A Victor says:

            TS, consider your reply to NA disregarded.

            I would not be surprised if narcs go to KHG also, I just know there are some here. That said, there are also empath’s here who don’t see clearly, and maybe even some normals. I know there are elements I don’t see clearly yet.

            I got an odd message after sending, hopefully this doesn’t turn up twice.

  8. Asp Emp says:

    https://narcsite.com/2019/08/05/why-cant-they-see-it-too-the-narcissists-facade-at-work-2/#comment-286215

    Fooking hell, that is really hilarious!!

    “So many sheep. So little common sense”

    Quacking with laughter……

    1. Poison says:

      “Quacking with laughter”, I absolutely love it! XD

      1. Asp Emp says:

        0poison0, thank you 🙂

  9. A Victor says:

    One of the most frustrating aspects of the whole dynamic.

    1. Another Cat says:

      Yes and the most frustratung bit is the answer:

      They fall for the same façade I once fell for.

      1. A Victor says:

        Haha, and the irony is that the facade is what keeps it from being seen… It’s a vicious cycle! 🥴🌀

    2. leelasfuelstinks says:

      And the worst thing about it is, when a whole country falls for the facade!

      1. A Victor says:

        Hi Leela, nice to see you! Hope you’ve been doing well. Yes, a whole country is really horrible.

        1. leelasfuelstinks says:

          Hey AV, yes, I´´m doing well, and protesting a lat 😉✊

        2. leelasfuelstinks says:

          and by the way: We have a couple of narcs on our side 😂 Sometimes it´s not so bad to have Cluster B´s on your side. They have no remorse, no boundaries, no guilt.

          1. A Victor says:

            Haha, they’re useful! I agree that can be true, just not in a relationship with one!

          2. leelasfuelstinks says:

            Definitely NOT in a relationship! And definitely NOT in the government! It is an open secret that one of our ministers is a cerebral narcissist! Lovely, isn´t it? 🤢

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