Knowing the Narcissist : The Narcissist and Marriage
Marriage. Widely-regarded as one of the central events in a person’s life. Whether it is a traditional church affair with white wedding dress, a civil ceremony inside a football stadium, something unusual such as at the bottom of a swimming pool, a same sex union, a week long Indian wedding or getting spliced in front of Elvis in Las Vegas, marriage remains a celebration.
It is the idea that two people want to spend the rest of their days together. The concept that this other person is so important to you that you wish to pledge your fidelity, allegiance and your entire self to your significant other before whichever personal god you worship. Notwithstanding the differing ways weddings occur, it remains a joyous occasion and one which many people aspire to, with differing ideas of how the day will look and feel. People seek a happy, long and fulfilling marriage. Sometimes that does not work out, sometimes it does. Our kind are no strangers to marriage, indeed, of those people who marry more than once, our kind are probably well-represented. One might be forgiven for thinking that our kind are particular devotees of the concept of marriage and in some respects, that is correct, but not for reasons people would expect. How do we regard marriage?
- It is a brilliant device for future faking. Those who are love devotees, which includes empathic people, want to marry. They consider the act of union with the person that they love to be hugely significant and a true marker of intent and desire. Our kind utilise the significance that is attributed to marriage as the means by which we can continue to draw people to us and also keep them bound to us, even if we have not married them. The promise of marriage at some future point is a definite ace to play to prevent an appliance from drifting away. Whether this is an IPPS who we live with or a Candidate IPSS we have high hopes for or even a Shelf IPSS who has not (unsurprisingly) worked out what they are, the potential to become married is tempting indeed. The promise of marriage becomes a large comfort crumb to feed to the appliance and involves sentences such as:
“I think we should get married at some point.”
“When I get the next promotion, I think we should consider getting married.”
“We ought to get married next year.”
“When someone is as happy as you and I, we really ought to be married.”
“I often think about what it would be like to be married.” (Not necessarily to you though)
“Can you imagine how great it would be if we got married?”
There is no proposal of marriage, no definite confirmation that this should take place but rather a vague and amorphous intention which can easily be put back when we choose so we can keep using this as a tempting morsel to keep you interested. It does not just have to be about stating an intention to get married but will include:-
a. Looking at engagement rings but never buying one;
b. Considering suitable wedding venues but never booking anything;
c. Discussing honeymoons but not booking anything;
d. Mentioning it to family and friends;
e. Drawing up potential guests lists but never doing anything with them;
f. Considering where to have the wedding list;
g. Considering what items to have on the wedding list;
h. Discussing colours for outfits, flowers, a theme and so forth but making no concrete decisions.
Such is the allure of the idea of getting married that it is probably the largest comfort crumb that can be fed to an appliance and the largest piece of future faking.
2. Marriage is extremely effective at binding an IPPS to us. We want to ensure that person is ours, owned by us and therefore by becoming engaged and getting married within a short time of meeting the IPPS we secure this individual and bind them to us through the institution of marriage. The appliance is made to feel ultra-special by us proposing to them and then marrying them.
3. It reinforces the concept of love which appeals to the empathic love devotee. As the song goes, ‘love and marriage, go together like a horse and carriage’. Love and all of its binding abilities, supportive elements and fuelling connotations goes hand in hand with marriage and therefore getting married is seen as a supreme act of love. Accordingly, marriage is always going to prove an excellent move with regards to ensnaring a choice empathic victim.
4. The façade. Being married tells the world that we can attract somebody, that somebody loves us, that we are desirable. It suggests stability and reliability and as such is a useful device for bolstering the façade so we are regarded as respectable and honourable. As Alec Baldwin stated in the film, The Departed
“Marriage is an important part of getting ahead. It lets people know you’re not a homo. A married guy seems more stable. People see the ring, they think “at least somebody can stand the son of a bitch.” Ladies see the ring, they know immediately that you must have some cash, and your cock must work.”
Several elements there which would support the façade and also appeal to our notion of getting ahead, and being seen as desirable.
5. Stability. This is a two pronged matter. The outside world, as mentioned above in the quote, regards a married person as more stable which helps with the façade. It also however helps our kind maintain stability with regards to the provision of fuel. This is especially important for the Lesser and Mid-Range Narcissists who may not have the sophisticated fuel matrices of the Greater. By securing the IPPS in this manner through marriage, the narcissist is gaining the advantage of knowing that there is going to be a reliable source of fuel for some time (both positive and then negative).
6. Religion. Whilst not as important as it once was (witness the rise of civil ceremonies) religion still plays an important part for many people with regard to the concept of marriage and where religion is a fundamental part of the life of the targeted victim, then this is something that we will exploit. Adhering to the religious significance of marriage enables us to use to not only draw a victim to us but also to bind them to us too.
7. The Preparation. Most weddings require considerable preparation. The wedding venue, a reception venue, what food will be served, whether there is a theme, stag and hen parties, guest lists, what will be worn, where people will sit, the wedding list, the wedding vehicles, the entertainment and so on and so forth. This provides us with numerous opportunities for the provision of fuel by repeatedly talking about our forthcoming nuptials, being able to show off in terms of extravagance, settling old scores and creating new ones through those who are invited and those who are not. There is a myriad of possibilities to use this occasion to our advantage when engaging in the preparation. Indeed, the different opportunities for gaining fuel merit an article in itself with regard to the run-up to and the preparation for a wedding.
8. The wedding day. This is one huge fuel fest. So many adoring appliances, jealous appliances, love-lorn and emotional. Everywhere we go, all eyes are on us. Scores of fuel lines running from us to all of these appliances, from the staff waiting on us, the vicar, the bridesmaids, the bride/groom, the guests. The power surge from all of the positive fuel (and there will be some negative fuel in there too – always pays to invite an ex appliance along just to keep things spiced up. My ex-wife repeatedly reminded me how she was surprised to find one of my exes at our wedding. I wasn’t surprised by how much fuel it kept providing me with thereafter). The day is one of fuel from start to finish and whilst everyone else is enjoying themselves through seeing love requited, the flowing alcohol and interesting dancing, we are gorging on the fuel that is flowing.
It is also worth making mention of The Pinnacle Effect. This is one of the interesting consequences of a wedding. Once the marriage has been secured there are those of our kind who find the explosion of fuel to be the best it can be in terms of positive fuel. This is also allied with the fact that the marriage also means that our kind see that the IPPS is totally embedded and ensnared. This results in the Pinnacle Effect. It is not evident with every wedding that occurs between narcissist and victim, indeed it less likely than more likely, but it is still worth mentioning. Once the ceremony has been completed, the reception attended and either the happy couple head off on their honeymoon or retire to their suite that night, The Pinnacle Effect occurs. The positive fuel is as good as it gets, the IPPS is ensnared and thus the devaluation begins. I have heard of numerous occasions where the blushing bride has become the bludgeoned bride or the amorous groom finds himself the alienated groom instead. The devaluation commences through being frozen out, verbally attacked or even physically assaulted.
9. Marriage applies to you and not to us. You have said the vows and we expect and demand you to comply with them. You will be faithful to us, you will look after us in sickness and in health, you will remain with us for better or for worse, for richer or poorer and so forth. You belong to us. That is the central tenet of the Narcissistic Relationship and the sealed nuptials confirms this to be the case. You will abide by these vows and be a reliable, faithful and compliant spouse. Of course with our sense of entitlement, lack of boundary recognition and failure to account, those vows do not apply to us. We will say them but we will not abide by them.
10. Marriage is a useful device. If you transgress in some way, we will hurl your vows at you (regardless of what we have done to offend them) and we will tell all and sundry that you have sullied the sacred name of marriage. We will wail about ‘wanting to make the marriage work’ when we perceive that you may be trying to escape us. We use the concept of marriage as a manipulative device to further our aims. You must be tied to us, you must save the marriage and not walk away from it, it is a yoke about your neck and a means to an end for us.
11. Stickability. The fact that you are married to us and you believe in the concept of marriage means that you are less likely to give up on it. You do not like to fail and you do not want to walk away without having tried to make it work. Binding you to us in this fashion means that we force you to keep trying and to cling on to us, with all the attendant benefits which subscribe to the Prime Aims also.
12. Divorce. If we marry you and we decide or you have the audacity to try to escape then it follows that divorce must take place. It is not a straight forward case of packing a bag and walking away. The fact that marriage requires a divorce if you seek to escape it provides us with further opportunities to draw fuel, bolster the façade and either hoover you back in or make your life a misery by pillorying you through the divorce proceedings.
It is rare to find a narcissist who has not been married and with some of our kind the marriages will number two or more. And why not? The institution of marriage is ripe for exploitation to further our narcissistic agenda.
Little wonder we are so ready to say ‘I do’.
If only you knew this beforehand so you could have said, ‘I do not’.
61 thoughts on “Knowing the Narcissist : The Narcissist and Marriage”
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Interesting yet not surprising to read what others had to say about “clutter”, “OCD” etc. Considering that it is within your own home environments and there seems to be a “need” for having control of the environment – not necessarily the people to the same degree as narcissists do. If you think about it, someone moving something within your own home without your “permission” is probably similar to removing your “control” thus creating a LOCE? As it may not be classed as OCD either. Simply a “LOCE” being “created” until you take back your power by moving the said object back into it’s right “place” (whether it is in fact the object, or telling a person off – just a couple of examples). Until one understands & “permits” a flexibility / relaxation (as AV suggested), there may be some people that cannot be as flexible. I think, for me, it depends.
I was similar, as a child as well as now, as an adult. The fact I was like “this goes there” as a child does not necessarily indicate a response from an empath**. Consider that having narcissist parent(s) telling you “you cannot do this, that” when you are a child and you learned that from them from a young age, no wonder we may adopt similar “that goes there” as a adult. Having said that, I would suggest that the child ‘copying’ is a normal part of a child’s development (social / communication / interaction) – no matter where they end up on the Narcissism to Empath spectrum.
I did wonder whether it is not specifically empath schools / cadres that is the main contributing factor. I think there may be a variation in the brain-wirings but this is not a narcissism (or empath) related area.
**Some empaths formation starts later and ‘completes’ later compared to narcissists formation.
AspEmp,
I was a neat and uptight child too. My toys were put away and my bed was made every day. I had an ulcer in 2nd grade, I was so anxious I also had digestive issues.
Looking back I can see how it was mainly the abuse my narc mother dumped on me and my Dad’s inability to recognize and do something about her abuse. It created an abusive environment to grow up in, so I created ways to cope and one of them was to please and try to be perfect and good for my mother, when I was a little child. Keeping my room clean was a way of trying to appease her temper. I still do this with my house now. Everything in order, if it’s not I get anxious…like I expect my mother to rise up from the grave and yell at me for having a dish to wash in the sink….ridiculous idea, but it must still be in the back of my mind to please her. The conditioning HG talks about, I grew up appeasing my mother, until I became a young adult, got more independent from her and fought back more and more.
Everything is getting so clear now, thw answers I seek, the confirmation I crave. Thank you AspEmp! Xx
Hi Rebecca 🙂 Even though she died some time back, the narcissistic residue can remain, even years later yet the way you described it comes across as being ‘haunted’ by that “residue”. I believe, for you, in time, it will reduce further when you have moved away from such ‘reminders’ (ie your current situation). I found for me, I had to “deal” with the most recent narcissistic abuse in order to “process” the older, maybe, because that was the more painful ‘period’ (childhood). I’m glad you have some answers. 🙂 xx
Thank you AspEmp,
Yes, I have called it being haunted by my narc mother, it’s what it feels like to me too. Xx She was the first person I attached to and loved, makes sense that the chains are still there and embedded in me. The hooks are deep and I’m working on, working them out. I got half the battle behind me now, I’m AWARE of my tendencies of anxious/ avoidant attachment and my desire to appease my abusers, all came from childhood trauma from having a narc mother and a dad, who wasnt capable of seeing the abuse she dished out ti me, my brother and himself. He had a blind eye to the abuse because he was subjected to childhood traumatic abuse, so he probably felt it was normal, like I did for so long. I don’t blame him for not stopping it, he didn’t know it was really wrong, afterall, it was done to him too.
And my mother? She had an abusive father, most likely a narc. He used to beat on my maternal grandmother, my uncle and my mother. So, it was generational abuse in her family too. I resented her, but I don’t hate her. Couldn’t hate her, just wanted her to love me. That’s all. She wasn’t capable of loving me. She didn’t have it in her. Not her fault. Still makes me sad though, I wanted a real mother, not a broken one….but, we’re all broken and a product of our own environment. We just have to be aware of it, thanks to HG’s work, we are now! That’s half way through the process! Xx
Hi Rebecca 🙂 Yes, I do understand. I also understand how difficult it can be for some ACONs compared to others. Self-awareness through HG’s work is key. Stay strong, you are doing ok xx
Hi Asp,
For me, as a child, there was not “that goes here and this goes there” except as my mom deemed it on any given day. One day I might be beat for moving a spoon to the wrong place and the next day she might tell me to put the spoon in that same place. It was completely erratic and at her whim. As a positive, I only remember as a very young child the beautiful bottles of colored water she’d put in the sunlight, I wanted to live in their beauty and looked at them often. They were still, serene and beautiful and I calmed when I looked at them. Then we moved and they were gone. I believe I have sought that beauty and serenity as an adult, I believe it helped form my brand of empath also.
I appreciate that you asked the question, the discussion has been interesting.
HI AV 🙂 That sounds like a narcissist trying to provoke a reaction from you as a child? I suppose any child would be fascinated with the coloured water and for some, they could be considered as a form of ‘focus’ during times of difficulties (if I may suggest it as such)? There may always be some children with a ‘trapped’ self that was hurt and that ‘hurt’ cannot always be removed yet it can be looked at differently and therefore dealt with differently. You were ‘seeking’ for answers and found them here 🙂 I have a couple of small pieces of stained glass art hung on white background. Thank you & nice to hear from you 🙂
Yes, there were always provocations, still are. I think ACONs are often trapped in a way, usually even. Thankfully there is this place.
A Victor, so sad to hear what your mom put you through.
It was somewhat similar for me. Constantly puzzled by the sudden outbursts. My dad sometimes told me he knew what she was like, on rare occasions. I guess he felt guilty when he saw how puzzled I was as a 5yearold. Turns out she was a MMRN type B.
Another Cat,
Yes, that is it, the absolute instability of the person and thus our situation as children. I am sorry you had to endure any of that also. That anyone had to. My dad also saw something, though he didn’t mention it to me until I was an adult. He didn’t know what was happening behind his back, in his own home. Funny thing was, he was a narcissist also, which I believe is the reason he was so distant as to not know, he really didn’t care.
This shook me up a bit. I grasp the idea of marriage as another means to the Prime Aims, but it’s so difficult for me to imagine a human being doing this. Even seeing it up close in my own life it’s still so heavy.
The need for fuel is such a relentless thing, to cause people to behave this way. And yet, I can’t allow myself to let feelings overwhelm me–because there’s no need and no point. Not because they’re doomed or because I’m good but because they’re natural soul eaters. I am drawn to them and they are drawn to me. I really shouldn’t expect any different with marriage.
I must resist the thing that gives me my high, but they get to have theirs, and even the awful outcomes for me are still just more fuel for them. That also causes me indignation. Couldn’t they have just a little bit of emotional empathy as I carry narcissitic traits in myself? Why don’t they bleed? What went wrong here when I wasn’t looking? And how is it that if I wound them, I’m the one who gets hurt? What are they, that they can eat the whole world? The Void itself in mortal form?
A famous horror author once remarked that the most frightening scenario he could think of would be lying alone in bed in total darkness–no animals in the house even–and feeling a tongue slowly taste the sole of his foot. Is this what they are?
They can cause all this destruction and they’re perfectly unscathed due to being free of emotional empathy. That’s the logical explanation I hold to in the night. But that author was wrong. The most frightening scenario would come after the unexpected caress of the unwelcome guest, when you hurriedly switch on the light, and find at the end of your bed the form most pleasing to you.
Dear HG,
Have you done a series or video on Hoarding and Narcissist? If not, can you do one for Narcissist and hoarding and one for Empaths that hoard too??
Thank you and I appreciate you! Xx
No, I have not.
Dear HG,
What do you think of the hoarding behavior? Narc? Empath? Both?
It is untidy.
HG,
100% agree with you xx
I also would be interested in that HG.
After reading several of Mr Tudor’s books and watching many of his videos, I have changed my negative opinion of him. His materials are spot on. He does know what he is talking about in terms of narcissism and empaths .
Concerning hoarders. It seems to me that hoarding may be a behavior of narcissists. They collect, they hold on, they don’t let go. This is in relation to stuff, just like the narcissist collects appliances (people). To me it does seem similar to narcissism.
So Mr Tudor, would you consider weighing in on hoarders?
Thank you.
I have addressed this in the past.
HG, would it be a fair consideration to suggest that a few unaware empaths may adopt ‘hoarding’ as a form of coping mechanism as they may not realise why they do this?
Yes.
This is very interesting. I suppose all kinds of negatively viewed behaviors can manifest in empaths who are trying to cope. I guess they can still in me, even with awareness, though I hadn’t thought about it for a while. Thank you both, for this question and reply, very interesting.
Thank you for your response, HG.
Hi H.G., I can see emotional attachment to things as being part of it but I read it’s linked to other mental health disorders like obsessive compulsive, anxiety/ depression, autism can be linked… and I find it interesting that people who hoard are often anti- authority. Do you agree? But it makes sense that hoarders can be empaths as empaths aren’t immune to mental health issues. I have a lovely long term friend who happens to be an hoarder. It creates problems… Interesting. Thanks!
Hi AspEmp,
I go through my closet, dresser drawers, kitchen cupboards and attic every couple of months, just to clear out stuff that’s not being used and can be donated. I usually donate clothes mostly, or small appliance that was given as a gift and I haven’t ever used it. Why hold on to it? Someone else may need it. I don’t like a lot of stuff, not being used, it’s wasteful and it doesn’t make me relax, when there’s clutter. Clutter makes me feel uptight. It’s weird, because my narc mother was a hoarder of newspapers, knick knacks, had 15 cats and wouldn’t let go of hardly anything. She kept clutter, no reason, except it was her’s and not to be touched. Drove me crazy to see her house like that, perhaps clutter reminds me of her and I find clutter to be unnerving. Do you feel that way? Anyone else, go nuts with clutter? Xx
Hi Rebecca, I can understand from what you explained about the hoarder (matrinarc) and the memories may be (if I can suggest it as such) are still embedded into your mind, so you maybe ‘responding’ through your instincts more than logical in some aspect, and, why you tend to do this ‘decluttering’? Can you recall how far back you started doing this ‘decluttering’ every so often? I wonder if it is your instincts (as well as LT) suggesting that you feel the need to purge the residue of narcissistic influence? You will achieve what you are aiming for – your freedom and you are working on it, stay strong xx
Hi Rebecca,
I hate clutter and do not hoard. But I can be OCD about it going too far in the opposite direction, to where it hinders the natural flow of communication between people in my home. That can be as much a problem as clutter and hoarding, if taken to extremes. I think having 4 children helped me loosen up a bit but I still have hangups about it. I think also that I went that direction in part because of my lazy, hoarding victim narc mother. And the trauma she inflicted.
Hi AspEmp,
I can recall the strong need to declatter for at least the last 10 years. Donating is my main avenue of getting rid of clutter. It makes me feel anxious and closed in. …clutter does that to me…I think you may be right, it’s attached to a need to get rid of excess or something I deem as a negative in my life…clutter does remind me of my narc mother, so maybe it’s a way of keeping her out, or dealing with what I want out of my life and working on removing it…it’s funny how the mind works to tell you something (LT trying to communicate to the ET) I understand what you mean and I think you’re right. Xx
Hi Rebecca, sorry I missed this comment sooner 🙂 10 years is quite a while. Maybe something ‘shifted’ within you (or your life) to start that back then. Thank you for taking my words into consideration. You posted a question about hoarding and why narcissists (if any) and empaths may do it. Take into consideration, HG’s article ‘To Control Is To Cope’ (coping strategies) how / why / when these may ‘manifest’. I would suggest that a narcissist may hoard as a form of control more than the reason non-narcissists do it. (maybe factor in what HG says in his article about Item Retention)? I say this, with a wry smile, maybe a narcissist may hoard as they construct their “empire” within the property they live in? For narcissists, it would be about ownership, assets (certainly control if they retain items that do not actually belong to them)? xx
AV,
Yes, I understand where you’re coming from here! I’ve been told I have OCD tendencies when it comes to clutter, especially paper work….MLSN holds on to paperwork and it drives me nuts. He had tax forms from the 1990’s….seriously, got a shredder and went through it all. Only kept the last 10 years, the rest shredded. Now he keeps paperwork away from me because I want to shred it. I used to line my shoes up in a row, which shoe I’m wearing each day. Now I put them in my closet, because someone told me they belong in the closet. I’m so uptight about where things go, I thought I was a narc…thought it was a control thing, now I learn it’s a trauma response, a way to cope for me…everything in order and everything in place…my marc mother was a terrible housekeeper, hate to say it, she was a slob, didn’t care how messy her house was. I’m the opposite, things have to be in order, in fact MLSN and his kids used to move things, when they all lived with me, just to watch me get irritated and move it back. It was a game for them and one that would piss me off. This goes there, not here…would just make me so anxious….It sounds so silly, but it really causes me anxiety when things are out of place. MLSN still does it, around some company….not as much now because I now know he’s doing it for my reaction and I don’t react to it much now. Not much fun for him now. Ha Ha xx
AV , Another Cat and AspEmp,
Do you think hoarding is a narc coping behavior, or both narc and empath can hoard?
My narc mother would hoard things and so would my husband’s mother. I wonder if she was a narc, or just an empath living long term with narc sons and husband?
I think it’s interesting how narcs and empaths can exhibit the same behaviors, but for different reasons. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
What you wrote is so interesting. We have some similarities and some similar reasons for them it sounds like. One thing that is most interesting to me is that my ex never moved my stuff. I think for him it was his preferred way to keep control, if he was polite and respectful of my things, he knew I would also be so of his. Politeness was a lot of our dynamic, he used it very effectively because it worked, I already knew ‘one does not cross boundaries’ when I met him. Of course, he did cross my voiced boundaries whenever it best served his purpose, not often like I said, but when it happened he would just somehow excuse it and make sure I knew I did not have the same freedom. He was such an ass. Anyway, I find it interesting to see the different ways narcs approach keeping control, and how they’re choice of empath goes along with it, whether we want to or not.
Hi AV,
What type of narc was your ex? Midrange? If so, I think they tend to be more passive aggressive and try to appear to be more a”nice” person for the facade management. I know my husband and his daughter are Lessers, so they like to bully more, probably why your ex didn’t use the same tactic on you. But, I agree we do have similiarities of our behaviors. I think our desire to be neat and organized comes from being over critisized by our narc mother, so we must have order around us, so we feel we’re being good and causing less waves, less conflict with others. A coping response. Xx
Rebecca,
I know that hoarding is a thing some narcs do! When we moved my mother into the house we now live in, we got rid of multiple huge dumpsters of junk she’d collected over the years. Some of the rooms in her tiny house had paths only and every surface was filled with stuff. I believe it is a control thing for her mostly, and it also gave her fuel, seeing others frustration with it, and also laziness. There was no embarrassment or sense of shame.
She has done what she can to clutter up the space she occupies in the house we live in now but has limited resources to do so. I have already told my kids and a couple of friends that when she is no longer here we will be having a dumpster party to clean her stuff out of here. She is not the only narc I’ve known with this tendency.
I’ve also known empaths with hoarding issues. I think there is often a sense of embarrassment or even shame with them when others know. They hoard as a way to cope and have control of something, like a narcissist, but they do not derive fuel from it.
Rebecca you hit that on the head, he’s a MMRA. And he believes he is the nicest guy ever!
Yes, a coping response. I don’t know if it was from being criticized or just that the way my mom lived was so disgusting to me that I went the opposite direction, both of these things were true. But either way, a coping mechanism for me, to feel some control in the chaos.
Hi AV,
I’m sorry your narc mother has to live with you. Xx I can imagine how hard and frustrating that is for you. What do you do to cope? Xx
I think our mothers ‘ hoarding behaviors are the same. My mother would keep newspapers stacked up, some even had cat piss on them and she would still fight me over throwing them away! Who wants pissed on newspaper?! Apparently my mother, I was embarrassed over it, she got worse as she got older. I got tired of fighting her over it and stopped going to see her. I couldn’t take the cat urine smell anymore and she cried to my mother in law about how I won’t help her. So frustrating when I tried to help her, but she wouldn’t let me.
My mother in law got the idea from her that I was neglecting my mother. What chaos she created for the fuel she got from all the fighting. What an ass.
My mother in law, who I didn’t do a NDC on, was a hoarder too, but her sons threw out her clutter , while she was still alive and disabled. They took full advantage of her paralyzed state. I was at work, when this went down, so couldn’t stop them. I found this out, when she managed to call me about it. I was very upset with all three of her sons for doing that to her and upsetting her so, in her weakened condition.
I sometimes wonder if she was an empath that acted like a narc due to having so many narcs living with her for so long. I believe all three of her sons are narcs and husband too. She did show empathy for my mother, why she fell for my mother’s pity plays.
I think the reason I don’t have more erroaded empathy is because I learned to step away from mean people, limit my time with them as much as possible…like I learned to do with my mother, brother , some friends, some coworkers and now my husband.
Most of the week, I’m at work during waking hours and when I get home from work, I still have another three hours before he comes home. I also usually stay in my bedroom, so I’m around him on a limited basis. It’s what I figured out. Xx
Hi AspEmp,
No worries, I understand it’s easy to miss a comment. Xx
Around 10 years ago, my brother died, this happened soon after my parents died. I see how the whole decluttering happened and why, thank you for pointing it out to me. I wouldn’t have connected the dots and seen it without your help. Xx I didn’t know my decluttering behavior had a reason behind it, now I do. I learn so much here and continue to learn. Xx🙂
HG,
I do appreciate your blog for the information, knowledge and answers it gives me and others, but I also appreciate it for the support, help and guidance I get from you and others here too. I also enjoy giving that same help, answers and guidance to others myself. Thank you for being here and thank you for your work. Both are priceless to so many. Xx
Thank you for explaining (the 10 years) – it does make sense. I think some empaths may instinctively be trying to “remove” the hurt they experienced as well as / and / or ‘purge’ the narcissistic residue. I agree with your second paragraph about the importance of the existence of HG’s work. xx
Hi Rebecca,
My mom lives in the upper level, my son and I live in the lower level. I have been in as close to ANC with her as possible since learning of it here, a few years ago. And even prior to that I limited interaction as much as I could, she’s just not nice. When I have to do something for her, I will do it while she’s away at work, she goes one day a week. I was driving her, for a few weeks, because her vision is getting bad and she has some restrictions now. I did see my ET go up, I was concerned about how I would keep doing it and not explode. But, she decided to drive herself again so it has worked out.
I rarely see her, as would be if she was still in her own house and I in mine. So it is okay. Good news though, we’ve been working on getting a doctor’s signature on done paper work so the house is secured to come to me when my mother is gone and that is progressing, finally! I was so worried that I would be left without a place to live, and she didn’t care at all about that, but we went to see her attorney and I was able to share with her, when my mom was out of the room, what I live with, that my siblings have been gone for decades because of my mom’s horrible behavior, so she did act on it. I think she could see that I’d been misled at an emotional time in my life, wanting to help my dad. That has been a big improvement on my stress level. There are still other things that annoy but at least I don’t worry about being homeless now. And I will have the freedom to get whatever help is needed without that as a concern as my mother ages.
I am glad you have some ways of coping in place also, that is very encouraging to read. Full freedom from narcs is what I look forward to for both of us, all of us here, that is the end goal!
AV, it is good to read what you say about potentially having secured a home (the house) in your future. Believe me, I do understand that more than you will know. I also understand the ‘security’ (in the knowledge) which does offer you a great peace of mind. I am really pleased for you, AV.
This is wonderful news, AV! I’m so happy to hear that the transfer of the house is coming along.
Clutter drives me completely nuts.
Hi AspEmp,
I understand now how I feel the drive to remove the pain and left over residue of my narc mother and psychopath brother, but I still can’t bring myself to get rid of rheir photos and a keepsake chest of their belongings I hold on to. Why? I still love them, why? They’re my mother and brother, but they abused me….the bond is still there, the love is still there…Why I’m a love devotee and why that trait was so high. They hurt me, abused me, but I still love them. Why? The bond? Why? My love is strong and my heart holds on to them, despite what my mind says, my mind says let go….my heart cries…no…love is in the bones, family is bones, family is your roots, part of you, can’t tear part of you away, you’ll never be the same, half a person, without love, I’m half alive, half me…the emotions I fight, the thoughts I fight, all within myself xx
HI Rebecca, regarding the part about the photographs & other things – it is only natural. As I have my family photos, still. I do not like the two options that is on the ‘plate’ – get rid (burn), or not get rid (give to family – breaching A / NCR in doing so). It is something that I have to decide one way or another but will cover this in consult with HG in the future. I think, it is probably not necessarily deep-rooted ET related (pardon me, a moment, HG) – because I thought, it is not us (the empath) that is breaking up (or broke up) the family ‘dynamics’ by getting rid of childhood family photos. I do understand, Rebecca. It does hurt to consider it at present. Yes, it is ET related. The family “dynamics” that was, in part, all an illusion (some family members are not narcissists). I think for some, it is a little early to consider just getting rid. xx
Hi AV,
I’m so glad to read that you see your mother rarely and that you secured your home for the future without your mother. Xx Her attorney must have seen her behavior too, to work with you on securing the house for you. What a load off your mind!
I’m glad I have limited time with MLSN, it makes things more bearable. It’s weird, he usually attempts to be nice and at times he usually just watches tv now, makes it easier to go in my room and be alone doing my own thing. He still snaps here and there, when he does, I just leave the room. I used to ask him why he needs to explode just because the tv glitched, or something happened to inconvience him.. he just goes to extreme, throwing a fit and yanking the tv cord out of the wall. Like a big toddler. I asked him, why? He said, “I don’t know what’s wrong with me! Maybe my horomones, maybe I need medication. I just can’t stand shit that won’t work and I hate that damn tv!” He’ll rant about the tv….all that because the tv is buffering a little and he has no patience to wait a couple of seconds, like a toddler. I just shake my head, pick up my doggie and go in my room.
I’m still working on my plans, it’s a process with hiccups and annoyances….I look forward to not dealing with this anymore too, for the both of us. Xx
AV
Glad to read that you are taking steps to secure the home. People will often assume or take the word of a parent on their intention after they pass in a situation like yours, and while that is not a good move for anyone, it is especially precarious for an ACON.
Leigh, Asp, Rebecca,
Thank you for the comments about my house situation. It definitely is a weight off my shoulders to have that being settled.
Thanks NA, your comment so long ago about getting my own attorney and your questions about the situation were always in my mind and did help propel me forward to see that it was done. I thank you for that also. What you say is so true, had I not been here and learned to question the narc, I would likely have taken her word for it until too late. I am very glad for this place and those such as yourself, HG and many others who spoke truth to me.
I have read that clutter can be a trauma response.
I wonder if that is similar to why they hoard?
I’d suggest “trauma response” is possibly part of the reason. I suppose (I am just speaking out loud here), that some unaware empaths may be seeking some kind of fulfillment only to continue not to ‘see’ what it is they are ‘seeking’? Until they are given the tools to know & understand – possibly breaking the repeated cycle of unawareness. “Knowledge is Power”.
So true AspEmp Some empaths live with a narcissist since decades back,
this makes their brain extremely tired and fatigued from the gaslighting. It’s called crazymaking for a reason. One type of crazy is hoarding. I have observed this with a nice family member, more and more nervous for being married to a narcissist.
Hi Another Cat, yes, some empaths can get so mentally & emotionally ‘confused’ because of narcissistic influences and from various outsiders looking in, there may be differentiating perspectives from those who are not directly within the environment. Sorry to read about the family member’s struggles, it can be so difficult to observe this and want to help them.
AspEmp thank you, well observed too!
HG may correct me of course but in my experience the empathic hoarder – in general – collects cheaper lower price things than the narcissist hoarder does. The hoarder with NPD can hoard expensive cars, horses, expensive paintings, etc. I have not yet heard of empaths doing this.
(Having regular collections is different, just to be clear, I don’t mean that)
Hi Another Cat. You could be correct about the narcisisst’s ‘perchance’ to hoard expensive items – I laughed at the suggestion of horses, assuming they’d be ‘stored’ in stables 😉 I understand, there is a difference in a hobby (collecting) and hoarding (collecting) but for different reasons / perceptions. I would suggest that some narcissists would also “collect” assets that belonged to either other people, or, even, a charitable organisation and sell later for their own benefit, not giving those mis-appropriated assets to another charitable organisation.
Thinking of how narcs view us as objects, I suppose you could have your people collector narcs (those that keep their bounty organized, labelled, pristine, showcase ready, etc.) and the ones who hoard people. Maybe it’s like the difference between collecting, say, porcelain chocolate pots versus a cache of broken appliances and waste. One can seem sensible and the other is clutter? Of course there could be unaware narcs similar to hoarders who see themselves as proper collectors.
Interesting about the role of trauma and how it may manifest through objects. I don’t discount the role of my trauma in my passion for cataloging, inscribing, dusting, describing, and handling the items in our museum. I guess for me objects are people and not the narc way round? Maybe empaths who hoard do so for emotional comfort and connection while narcs do it to meet the aims, with the outward manifestations indistinguishable to most? Trauma still being the basis.
@AspEmp yes my example was horses, it’s often on the news that a person hoarded animals for years and the torturous lives of those animals.
But maybe some animal hoarders are nonnarcs?
Hi Another Cat, I know exactly what you are referring to – in regard to people who “hoard” animals in the way you describe – you reminded me of an aunt who had dogs & the conditions were not nice.
Yes, I would agree with you that maybe some are not narcissists. Would they go to the same extremes though? I really could not answer that.
I am replying to myself since I can’t reply to anyone in the thread.
I think both empaths and narcs can be hoarders, have clutter or have a completely neat and clean house.
It would be interesting to see it on a percentage basis.
My house is clean and neat, just don’t open the closets or drawers!
I know nothing about hearing but someone below mentioned a narcs hoarding might consist of expensive collections.
That is my father.
Antique guns, 1/4 million dollar horses, cars. All nice and tidy. His house without my Mom is a mess of clutter.
My Mom collected music boxes which now belong to my kids.
What I hate is junk. If it doesn’t work or isn’t worth fixing get it out of my life.
Ooh interesting question vf. I can certainly confirm i know a hoarder couple, one N, one CD (diagnosed by me so not with HG’s seal of approval).
The N was a hoarder and sowndahokic, to the point they had enough space to move (just). The CD also a hoarder but not a soendaholic.
Once I tried to help them clear some things, hired a van etc etc shifted enough to a garage they then rented so they could move more freely. It was so bad before that each time they wanted a shower they had to move all their gear (well the CD did) out of the shower which was floor to ceiling then put it back after so they could move in the rest of the bathroom. Anywys it was stressful for both of them. They has wanted me to do this, it wasn’t of my choosing but when I was saying can we throw this or can this go to the garage, anything they could manage to part with went to the garage. It was a painful process for all and I would never do that again. They need their stuff around them. The N thought I was trying to steal her prerecorded video tapes of which there were 1000s (I don’t even have a video player) and the CD was just extremely distressed by the whole experience, despite wanting me to help. Lear things. Their solution would have been to have a larger home? Since then the N died and so at least the CD does not purchase more tat to fill it up further but her home remains very full.
Very interesting. I’ve always been fairly certain my former in-laws are narcissists. I’ve known them for almost two decades and everything they do and say is transactional. Their marriage is built for the facade and financial stability. They cannot deal with people unless they are trying to manipulate them. At first, I only noticed this against others, but after coming to Mr. Tudor’s works I realized this and some of the other methods being applied to me as well. And zero emotional empathy. Not even towards their own children.
And, as it turns out, they’re massive hoarders. I’ve never tried helping my father-in-law with his hoard–too many surprise guns and large animals. But once I did try to help my mother-in-law by holding a garage sale. She assented, or seemed to. Boy, did that get ugly fast. I only tackled one room. It was stacked to the ceiling with unopened boxes from eBay. Box after box of broken dolls, shirt buttons (those are apparently a big thing to collect), crucifixes, and just–stuff, tons of stuff. Over 10K worth of junk. And the largest collection of purses I’ve ever seen in one spot.
So, all these things are out on display for the passing motorists. I truly hate garage sales, but I felt this was an emergency. And she hovered over that table like a vulture, fondling everything. Her eyes and voice changed, filled with abnormal lust. She kept taking things back and hiding them away. Now that I’d opened the boxes it was like a candy store for her.
I never even emptied that house by a jot. They finally moved out of it and are now hoarding up a new one. But they kept the old property. Once they sent my husband out to do some work there and I went along. Something snapped in me when I saw that my father-in-law was then storing a Zebu cow in the middle of the kitchen.
Jees Allison! They sound nuts and keep some hideous things! Glad you’re out of it now.