Knowing the Narcisisst : The Asylum of the Grotesque : Andrea
Andrea and I were sat outside my property as the sun set. It was a useful piece of symbolism for our relationship as she was in the sustained devaluation and her disengagement was not far away.
. Gradually, the canvas of the sky transformed into a masterpiece of vibrant hues, a brilliant sunset that captivated the viewer.
In that magical hour, the sky became an artist’s palette, brushed with streaks of fiery red, burnt orange, and rich, velvety purple. As the sun descended toward the edge of the Earth, a stunning display unfolded, igniting the heavens with an otherworldly glow.
The golden rays of the dying sun spread out like a translucent tapestry, casting a warm, ethereal light across the land. It painted the clouds with shades of pink and lavender, transforming them into magnificent brushstrokes against the vast expanse of the azure sky.
With each passing moment, the colors intensified, like whispers of fire and passion lighting up the atmosphere.
As the sun trod its path along the horizon, a subtle dance between light and shadow began. Silhouettes of trees and buildings emerged against the backdrop of the fading day. Their outlines etched with softness.
But as the sun kissed the horizon, preparing for its descent into the embrace of night, the brilliance of the sunset began to fade. The intense colors merged into softer pastel tones, casting a tranquil ambiance upon the Earth. The silent transformation reminded me of the fleeting nature of this relationship.
Andrea lifted the bottle of wine that we were sharing and poured the last of the wine into her glass before lifting it to her lips.
“You soon polished that off,” I remarked.
“It is delicious,” she confirmed oblivious to the fact that I had actually issued my remark as a criticism.
“I know, although my enjoyment of it has rather been cut short by your greed,” I replied as I felt the malice rising inside of me. It was not about the wine, I did not care, about that, there were plenty of other bottles inside, but rather I had selected her lack of manners of not offering some to me as a basis for devaluing her. Her ill-governed behaviour had manifested once again, it was propelled by greed, simple greed on her part and I determined that I would take her to task for her greed.
I swung around to face her and waited until she had turned around to look at me. She immediately saw there was a problem as her eyes locked on my own blackened stare. I saw the calm evaporate and be replaced with her furrowed brow of concern. She made to speak, as if to offer some salve to ameliorate what she anticipated, but I spoke first.
“ Your greed appears as a pervasive and destructive force that permeates every aspect of your existence. It is a voracious hunger, an insatiable desire that consumes you, obscuring the path towards true fulfillment and contentment. Greed, in all its forms, manifests itself as an insidious poison that corrupts the minds and hearts of those afflicted by its suffocating grip, namely you.
At its core, your greed is an expression of a profound dissatisfaction with the abundance that life has already bestowed upon you. You view the world as a never-ending playground, teeming with resources awaiting your relentless exploitation. You yearn for more, driven by an insatiable appetite for wealth, power, and possessions. “
“But, HG,” she tried to interrupt me.
“ I am speaking,” I warned. She fell silent.
“ Driven by your insatiable thirst for acquisition, you plunge headlong into a dog-eat-dog world, relentlessly pursuing more wealth and resources at any cost. Your hoard your treasures with a fervent zeal, unwilling to share the spoils with me This desire to accumulate, fueled by a deep-rooted fear of scarcity and competition, leaves an indelible scar on the collective consciousness.
Your blindness to the consequences of your actions is staggering. To you, the cost of accumulating wealth is far outweighed by the short-lived satisfaction it brings. You exploit others, trampling upon the lives and wellbeing of your fellow humans, all in the relentless pursuit of material gains..
Your greed thrives on the exploitation of others. Humans, unwilling to acknowledge the intrinsic value and dignity of every life, view their fellow beings simply as tools to be used and discarded. (I felt myself want to smile at this point but I resisted the urge) They view success not in terms of collective harmony and wellbeing, but as an individualized achievement – a competition that can only be won at the expense of others.
Even in your supposed generosity, their actions are often motivated by a desire for personal glorification and ego-stroking. You exploit philanthropy as a means to enhance your own reputation, flaunting your wealth in calculated displays of generosity without seeking to address the structures of inequality that perpetuate the very suffering you purport to alleviate.”
Now I could see her own anger wanting to pour towards me. Her eyes were glazed with tears,but her arms were folded defiantly, her chin jutting forward. She wanted to fight me. Good, I wanted her to do so. I paused and saw she was ready to jump in and before she could I continued with my monologue.
“The consequences of your greed extend far beyond material wealth. It thrives on the exploitation of natural resources, contributing to the degradation of the environment and the destruction of delicate ecosystems. Your relentless pursuit of profit disregards the long-term sustainability of the planet, jeopardizing the very foundations of life as we know it.
Greed, at its core, is a fundamental disconnection from the interconnectedness of all life. You are preoccupied with your own wants and desires, severing yourself from the intricate web of life that sustains and nourishes you . You fail to recognize that your own wellbeing is intricately tied to the health and prosperity of the collective whole.
. It is an endless thirst, an insatiable void that can never be filled, no matter the amount of wealth or possessions accumulated. Even down to drinking my wine. I am sickened by your selfishness, your greed, your avarice. I am sick of you.”
I halted savouring her facial expression and body language as she drew back, like a cobra about to strike and fought back.
Oh, how I love it when they struggle I thought as the first blast of challenge fuel crashed against me. This was a fight that would go on all night. She would fight and fight hard, but I would break her, but not yet, oh not yet. Let her come at me, let her seek to land a blow on me, these are the nights I crave. I felt the power surging through me as she fed me with her own anger, her own indignation, the words fired staccato at me, the single angry tear trickling down over that cheekbone, I wanted to lean in and lick it from her face but that would interrupt her own diatribe and I was enjoying it far too much to stop it just yet.
I gave the smallest of smiles which I knew would irritate her further, but it actually was a compliment, for it was an appreciation of one of the reasons I had chosen her. Her fight and I was greedy for it.
69 thoughts on “Knowing the Narcisisst : The Asylum of the Grotesque : Andrea”
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Mr. Tudor,
Dani said, “HG has said that a reduction in empathy can be permanent (if I recall correctly).”
Can you please clarify that for me?
Can empaths have a permanent reduction of empathy? If so, would the reduction of empathy be towards everyone or just the narcissists they’ve dealt with in the past?
There might be circumstances which would alter somebody to such a degree that their emotional empathy would be reduced and that reduction would be permanent. It would be unusual but it can happen. I witnessed this with regard to a woman whose two young children were killed in a car crash. The loss she experienced caused her to be at war with the world, her hitherto emotional empathy reduced and it stayed reduced. It made her an unpleasant, belligerent individual and was a stark contrast to the person she had been before.
HG,
Wow, that is so sad. I hope she finds her way back from that. Is it possible that her personality prior to her children’s death was not the real one? Or was she just broken by their death?
The impact of their deaths altered her considerably.
Very interesting.
HG, would you still classify this woman as an empath?
Would the detector results be reliable, conclusive in such a case?
I never stated she was an Empath. I referred to the reduction in her emotional empathy, empaths don’t have a monopoly on emotional empathy.
Yes, indeed.
This significantly changes the course of my next thoughts, that have already started circulating.
Thank you.
Mr. Tudor–
1. Have you known an empath to have a permanent reduction in emotional empathy?
2. Would this be the rarest of the rare situations, owing to the higher empathic traits of the empath, which to my thinking results in a psychological resiliency that normals and narcissistic people would likely not possess?
Thank you so much for your time. Much appreciated.
Already answered.
Thank you for your reply HG. That is just heartbreaking.
Thank you, sir.
AV, I do believe my emotional empathy has reduced significantly since the narc who enlightened me. Pre anny knowledge I was empathic towards everyone, no matter how badly they may have treated me or others, truly believing that everyone has some good in them somewhere. Initially I was wary of everyone and lacked any empathy towards almost everyone outside of my immediate family.
It altered once I found HG because through learning from him I can now almost instinctively pick up on whether someone is a narc or not. There are a few people I struggle to detect, interestingly some female MRs, only a few though where I have some doubts.
Since then my empathy was rather consistent for a while in terms of having empathy for other empaths only and by and large remains unchanged. The level of empathy I experience for others now, really depends on the amount of empathy they themselves are capable of experiencing. Therefore I would say that I’ve had a permanent reduction. I think once you understand HGs work fully, it’s almost impossible (well for me) to not see people as they truly are. His explanations of normals/ narcissistic people has been pivotal in this as much as the understanding of Ns and Es. You can then clearly see the full picture.
That said, in recent months I’ve begun to actually feel a little empathy for Ns in their constant search for fuel? What the hell is that all about???? Go away empathy Hahahah
I think probably because they have zero choice and once this is understood fully how could you not?
However, I would not help an N in any way shape or form unless there was a benefit to me, including managing my own facade of pretending to like them etc in the work place or other group type situations. For others and friends etc I’ve never looked at anything from a perspective of what I will get out of. Situation from another person, it’s always been about whether I find them fun kind etc. sadly I realise almost all of my friendships (now very much deleted from my life) were Ns. Apart from the odd one though, because their behaviours is sooooooooo predictable it almost nullifies that and makes them really dull.
Hi Alexis,
Thank you for this much needed reminder. Maybe about a year ago, WhoCares made a comment on the Compassion thread and said something similar. She said that she now gets to choose who gets her compassion and empathy. She doesn’t automatically give it freely anymore.
When I read Dani’s comment, I had a couple of thoughts. I wondered would the permanent reduction in empathy be towards everyone or just the narcs in my life? I hadn’t considered extreme cases like Mr. Tudor suggested. I also didn’t consider there would be a natural reduction in empathy due to my knowledge of narcissism.
I’ve had a similar reduction in empathy as well. I have less tolerance and sympathy now. I thought very similar as you in that everyone has some good in them. I would often make excuses for people’s negative behaviors by suggesting they meant well or it wasn’t their intention to be hurtful. I no longer do that because I don’t fall for that horseshit anymore, lol.
You’re always very helpful, Alexis. Thank you again.
Hi Alexissmith,
Okay, trying for a third time…I keep losing my replies to you! I was hopeful if sent one yesterday but I think it did not make it off my phone.
Thank you for your comment, it was a real light bulb moment for me. I’d not personalized this potential lowering of empathy before that. I too have experienced it and also the ability to give it as I wish or not, since finding narcsite and learning about narcissism.
I was thinking of a drastic change in a person’s empathy due to narcissistic abuse, which upon considering your comment, I realized I had also experienced. It was very focused at the narcissist and I believe it’s when my Super took over and said, “That’s enough!”. That empathy has never returned.
The third possibility which I also had not considered it realized could happen was the one like what HG told about, the woman who lost all empathy due to a traumatic event. That one is possibly the rare one.
It is so great that we can lower and learn to control our empathy once we have the knowledge to do so. Thanks for your comment, it was an eye opener for me!
Hi AV,
I hadn’t considered the times my empathy was reduced before I knew about narcissism.
That’s what happened with my father. When he disappeared, I drew the line in the sand and my empathy for him never returned. Even when he did reappear 5 years later, I wanted nothing to do with him. By then it was too late.
It’s so fascinating to me how our brain works and the things it does to protect us.
Alexis, AV, and Leigh–
Interesting discussion on empathy fluctuation or permanent reduction. My mind goes back to HG’s response to a post about whether we need to become more narcissistic to survive within the world narcs have shaped for themselves (hope you’ll all forgive me if my memory mangled that). But the solution he said was to develop logic, thereby tamping down emotional thinking.
Since leaving my spouse I’ve noticed a significant reduction in my ET and a more detached approach to other people’s needs and wants, which used to really suck me in immediately. And drain me–leaving nothing for myself! That really doesn’t make sense to me now.
My empathy also feels under more control, with my internal responses being more like having an empathy keg rather than it spilling out everywhere from shattered bottles. For that alone I’m immensely grateful for his work and for all of you here. I never thought that in the midst of so much upheaval in my life that I could feel this confident and free in myself.
Hi Allison,
I’m happy to help in any way I can. But truth be told, I’m still not free.
Since I haven’t experienced freedom yet, I still have to worry about my elevated ET. Its something that I have to work on and address every day. But even with that, I still can notice a difference in my empathy. In the past, my ET would corrupt my empathic & narcissistic traits and cause me to interact much more often than I do now.
I find it all very fascinating though, how it all connects. If you lower your ET and think more with logic, you’ll have a natural reduction in empathy. Its easier said than done though.
I’m glad to hear you’re doing well.
Hi Leigh WhoCares and AV,
I believe I’ve experienced lowering my empathy for certain people in my life, like my mother previously…currently
it’s my stepdaughter, father in law, brothers in law, my current husband…I don’t see his family, rarely the little one anymore and I emotionally withdrew from them all, I feel disconnected to them and distant. I’ve isolated myself emotionally from them. I don’t involve myself in their fights and dramas….one victory at least. Xx
Hi Rebecca, I’ve experienced a lowering of empathy for many of the narc’s family members as well. I avoid them like the plague. Right now I’m continuing to isolate and keep to myself. I also have no empathy left for my mother. I haven’t seen her in 4 years and I see that as a positive. I agree. It is a victory!
Allison–
“A more detached approach to other people’s needs and wants, which used to really suck me in immediately. And drain me–leaving nothing for myself! ” — Draining and leaving nothing for myself, that makes perfect sense, how you described that feeling.
Allison, thank you for sharing that! So uplifting and encouraging! I hope things continue to look up for you and that you find all the happiness you deserve!
Hey Leigh, AV and Allison, aww thanks so much for your replies.
I didn’t know who cares said this. I’m glad I’m not the only one. It’s a great way to articulate it thsr people don’t automatically receive empathy from her any more. I think now that logic prevails most of the time it’s almost impossible for it to be any other way. At least when I’m interacting on a personal level. Because if someone gives you the ST or triangulate you or any other manipulation you can just explain it away. Whatever they say or do positive or negative has a purpose and I still enjoy soneotimws working out the cause and effect. I had an old work colleague message me out of the blue recently. He’s likely LMR. The brief message exchanges were fraught with little manipulations which I would never have been aware of. It finished when he said some crappy joke and I replied something along the lines of “alright dad”. This clearly wounded him as he’s not replied. He lives quite far and I think he was after a fuel boost. Anyways years ago I would have been upset and confused, I thought it was funny, he was wounded so easily. But now I only think, okay thsr wounded him lol if it was a true friend whom wasn’t narcy I would have been really upset and wondered what I’d done still but I know he’s an N.
It’s really sad what happened to the person HG mentioned in glad that you’ve also experienced a reduction in your empathy. Mine is returning after about 10 years. I’d lived in this narc world for a while. I guess we all do what we need to do. I hadn’t realised quite how much had disappeared until it started to return.
So happy your logic explains things away too Leigh. You’re made of strong stuff!
Awww AV thsr made me so happy you had a lightbulb moment. And to read that you’ve also had a reduction in empathy. There are times I miss the person I used to be, not often because it’s almost like a different life and some of the things which have happened over the past 10 years I wonder how on Earth I would have got through them if it hadn’t been for HG and the knowledge he’d shared.
It’s interesting your reduction is towards the narc only. When I first learned about narcs and started seeing them everywhere, I wondered what the hell was going on, until around a couple of years after and HG confirmed it was roughly one in six. I just wanted to cry with happiness because it just made no sense to me. How could I have been seeing all of these Ns everywhere. At first I couldn’t watch movies or listen to music or interact with narcs at all. I cut out every single narc from my life which accounted for almost all of my pleutonic female friends and even where there was a group of friends where only one was a narc, I’d cut out the entire group and remain only friends with the non narc, although thsr didn’t work very well as I didn’t have an explanation. In some of these cases, the non narc had been friends with the N long before I was part of the friendship group/s and so I just had to walk away entirely. Now although it would be impossible to go back to some of these people and not do I want to, for new people i meet as long as the N is kept at distance (as in I’d never have them in my life daily) I can get on with it.
Allison, I don’t recall the post (sorry HG) but I do believe if we want to survive then we have no choice but to become more N like ourselves.
His solution is soooo accurate though. Logic and understanding is the key.
That’s great you left your spouse! Well done!! And a detached approach to others sounds perfect!
Yup we need to learn, always fasten your own seatbelt first before helping others! Been on too many flights recently hahha
I too was sucked in with an overwhelming desire to help. I guess it was my “fuel”. But I can no longer tap into it like I used to. I loved doing charity work etc but now I see they’re all run by Ns and I can’t help but think that some of the recipients are Ns too. I haven’t quite shifted my thoughts through that enough yet and not sure I will? But on a personal level if a non N needed my help, I would help them.
Glad yours is a keg now rather than over spilling. Great way lf putting it Allison. And you feel confident and free! Just fantastic to read x
AV, Leigh and Allison. In addition to my previous reply to you all. I wanted to share something I learned the other day. I was at a conference and the main presenter shared a short video made my Cambridge researchers (with too much time on their hands clearly hhahaha) anyway, they looked at a species of locusts some of whom were brown, others green. The brown lived in a swarm and the green isolated and grumpy and aggressive. If the green was forced to be with the brown the browns would tickle his legs which produced seretonin and he became happy and part of the group and turned brown within. Couple of hours. Only if he was unable to get away from the browns.
It also worked in the reverse and any brown could become green if isolated for long enough as their deretonin levels dropped. Made me wonder if the greens had a reduction in empathy or the greens turned brown to blend but was really still narcy underneath their new exterior. Perhaps it was just on a more basic bio/phiso level and neither of the above. It was really interesting though.
Alexis,
I love nature. I find these things interesting too. I’m seeing the metaphor differently though. I feel like I’m the green locust. Content in isolation. Grumpy and aggressive because my empathy is reduced. When forced to be with the brown locust, they use a benign manipulation by tickling my legs. I then fall for their manipulation and become subsumed by the brown locust.
Your exchange with your former co worker made me chuckle. In the past, I might’ve chased them. I probably would’ve kept on texting and apologized for offending them. I would’ve tried to explain that I only meant it as a joke. I no longer try that hard. Especially if think they’re a narc. If I know they’re a narc, I’d do the same as you and not care if they ghost me.
I see narcs everywhere too. I trust no one and question everything. I have difficulty with TV, movies and music too. I repeatedly pick apart characters. I’m constantly picking apart lyrics too.
Its why I prefer isolation right now. I like being a green locust. I don’t want my legs tickled and then be subsumed by the brown locust, lol!
Alexissmith,
Thank you for sharing all of that, very interesting all of it. I love your approach to narcs not in your personal life, you see them for what they are and make it work. And the story of wounding was great, they are quite thin-skinned though when we’re with them in a relationship I don’t think we always realize this, or maybe that’s why we’re do what we do, to placate them. Anyway, thanks, I enjoyed reading about the locust also, very interesting.
Hi Leigh, AV and Alexis,
The green and brown locust story was interesting and didn’t think that happened. I know some fish can naturally change their gender, if they want to spawn and can’t find a mate of the opposite sex. The fish manipulates itself, in order to spawn, thought that was interesting too.
Hope everyone is well. Xx
Oh my gosh! How incredibly sad. That must’ve devastated her.
Thank you for response and clarifying, Mr. Tudor.
Hi Leigh,
Have you, or anyone on here, been having issues receiving blog comment notices in email? I had to subscribe again. It may have been my phone update that messed it up. I hope I fixed the issue. Xx
Hope you’re well. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
I haven’t been getting emails regarding comments either. I’ve only gotten emails notifying me that Mr. Tudor posted an article.
I don’t use the WordPress app. I sign in on my laptop or my phone and I’ve experienced the same thing.
Hi Rebecca. Yes, I think it could be a couple of glitches within the most recent large update of WP (affecting users as well as blog owners). The next WP major update is penned for around 16th July……. (just letting you know in advance 😉 )
Hi Rebecca, I haven’t been getting notifications either, except for one today and one a couple days ago, about comments. And I haven’t been able to like anything again for a while. I logged in to WP today, I was able to like things after that.
Hi Leigh:
Thanks for responding! Well I am not convinced she is a narcissist. We have been friends for 30 years and she is a very loving devoted person to her family especially her children. Although we vary greatly in parenting styles. It’s possible that the last 5 years have lowered her empathy and I have been her closest greatest confidant and supporter so she may just be taking it out on me. She has gone through HELL with her autistic daughter who might have other psychological issues. Depression is one. But her daughter has been in and out of mental hospitals: cutting, verbal and extreme physical abuse, drug use, wouldn’t go to school, etc… the doctors have done every test and every medication. To her credit her daughter graduated high school recently! . She is very devoted. But she got snarky with me. She should go to group counseling but dislikes it. So she wanted one of my puppies for free. I said yes but when I learned she was going to just give it to a neighbor, I said the neighbor must pay. She called me “ greedy.” I asked for 700$ for a pedigree frenchie. Cheap. She said I would ruin my 30 years of friendship. I said what my son said, you aren’t the one who had to stay up all night for weeks, clean their poo, etc… I would give you one for free not your neighbor. Plus she flaked out on an event she insisted on going and bringing her daughter. I had bought them tickets. She forgot. Anyway that was my response, she defriended me. I did not reach out further. To be honest, the silence was a break as it’s been A LOT to help her through. Her family does nothing. She has a mother, a son and 4 sisters, they run. But I know I have been a good friend. She calls me the kindest person she knows and that I help strays the way other people save stray dogs. Yet, where is my value to her to behave this way? And I just think she must not value the friendship so for now, for now, I am content on the break. Sometimes I think when you speak to someone daily, you get a rivalry. I don’t feel this way but I notice it in others. I love to see my loved ones succeed. But she tended to compare our daughters. Mine is a superstar admittedly. I would say that’s not fair, my daughter does not have autism or your son graduated college and is doing great, my son just got out of the marines and starts school this fall. You cannot compare! But it falls on deaf ears. I don’t have her problems, challenges etc… even though I have my own it’s not as bad as hers. And in some ways it’s true. I don’t have a special needs child but I love hers, support hers, have had them here and treat them really well. They loved coming to stay with me. So it’s odd but I feel maybe she feels better not having me in her life now as she compares and feels her life is miserable. So I shall give it time then reach out in a loving way. But I don’t want to do it now as I am very busy and she is a lot sometimes. Giving it a breather…my ex and husband, we are still married but live apart for years 6000 miles apart … he is someone I would like to divorce but I don’t want to pay him. I don’t want to sue and have the post nuptials and separation agreement challenged. It’s been 11 years and he won’t walk away even though we don’t talk or have any future plans. I will probably be married forever but feel very single. He is a middle lesser. How did your friend react, if you don’t mind sharing! Best wishes in all your endeavors ! Hugs!
HI Contagious,
Like you, I’ve also known my friend for over 30 years. The phone call and texts were incessant throughout the day and night. Always complaining. Always chicken little. It got so bad that I would put my phone on do not disturb so she wouldn’t bother me through the night. She had absolutely no boundary recognition. She had no concern with what was going on in my life.
After finding Mr. Tudor, the more I read, the more I realized that she was a narcissist and I was her top lieutenant. She would lean on me for support. She needed me to tell her that she was right and I often would. When I first started pulling away from her, she became belligerent, aggressive and down right nasty. But what I thought was the most interesting is that instead of accepting that I no longer wanted the friendship, she made excuses. She said I changed. She blamed menopause and said it caused me to have social anxiety issues. She couldn’t grasp that there was something wrong with her friendship, she had to blameshift. That sealed it for me and I began the mourning process.
I’m leaving out a lot of details. If I went through the list, it would be much more obvious. But that details aren’t important. One of the most important things I’ve learned is that we don’t have to tolerate behavior that we’re not comfortable with. She’s incredibly draining and I needed to get away from her.
My husband is a LMR victim narcissist. I shutter the thought to think I’ll be married to him forever. I live in the same home as him and I know exactly what you mean by being married and feeling very single. That describes my whole relationship in a nutshell. I don’t want to give up half my assets but at some point, I’m going to have to because he’s draining as well.
I agree with you 100% with regards to the puppy and your friend’s neighbor. Its my opinion that I don’t think your friend shouldn’t have put you in that predicament in the first place. I also don’t think she should’ve threatened your friendship in that way. Have you thought about doing the narc detector on her or are you not ready to do that yet?
I’ve had some issues, too. No comments, except for likes. I was worried Mr. Tudor had banished me to outer darkness.
Hi Rebecca:
Sounds like many here and you overcame and got rid of the narcs in their lives. Bravo! I have not changed as much ….I had cut out my ex husband narc years ago. It wasn’t just knowing what I do now, this helps keep him out, it is just he is insane. I pity him but my analogy would be a rabid dog. I love dogs, I would not want to hurt any one of them even a sick one but if I get too close, I will be bit and die. He is currently under mental health watch. It was not my imagination. ….With that being said, I have a close friend NOW who I suspect is a narc, maybe normal ? and I have recently pulled away to see how I feel. I love her but I realize she is draining. Like my ex rapid dog ( lol), she is negative and always in crisis. Her problems are always worse than mine or anyone’s. I am the constant pep talker, positive pointer outer, hand holder etc… but if you ever try to say how blessed she is and look at all you have compared to others with serious or more difficult problems ( as hers are often overblown…and it’s always the worst that can happen in her future, chicken little) not all… she gets angry and snaps “ I am allowed to be validated.” True but she means validate her problems which is always, daily. And many of her problems are like everyone else’s , normal life challenges … not all. I don’t get it really.
So my life is more peaceful, calm, more positive now not talking to her daily… and I hate to say it as I do love her and I want to resume contact someday….i think… ( translate, I feel a sense of duty or to honor the friendship and I do love her..) …. So I may see her differently now….but I don’t see narcs everywhere and maybe I need to look more closely… I don’t fear falling in love with a narc due to H.G. study ( years of it) and the vast vast majority of my relationships in life ( not my ex husband – described above) have been with empathy or normals BUT I worry that it will be hard to find a “ good empathic man” out there who I will love. While narcs are 6% 15%? The minority… it seems like you meet more of them. So then maybe I do see more narcs now….but I wish I could just force myself into love with another empath that I meet “ aha! A nice guy! Commit) but that’s not logical. So… I just let my flower bloom, enjoy life with my loved ones, work , interests and the beauty of the world and hope Mr. Empath or Mr normal enters my life someday like all the other single ladies….
Hi Contagious,
I think you were responding to me even though you addressed Rebecca. I only say that because I had made the comment about seeing narcs everywhere. I think the overall average is 1 in 6 or 15%. For some, the percentage is higher and for others its lower. Mr. Tudor had addressed this once before but I can’t remember on which thread. In my household, its 2 narcs and 2 empaths. So for me, its 50%.
With the knowledge from Mr. Tudor, I can’t help but see narcissism everywhere. Maybe some of it is cynicism or skepticism but I cannot allow another narc in. so its easier to isolate for now. By the way, I’m not free from my narc husband or narc daughter yet. Its still a work in progress. I do try to isolate myself from them as much as possible though.
I’m sorry to hear about your friend. My best friend turned out to be a narcissist as well. I had to cut her out of my life. Now that you’ve put some distance between you and your friend, how did she react? When I distanced myself from my friend, her reaction was how I realized she was a narc too.
Hi Leigh,
I don’t use the WordPress app either, but I used to get comments in my email. I guess WordPress changed that. Now I only get ‘like’ comments from the blog. Xx
Leigh,
I forgot to mention, I do get notices about the articles HG post on the blog. Xx
Rebecca,
I think WordPress likes to screw with our head, lol!
Leigh,
I think you’re right! 😆xx
I really like your reply HG.
You train people to reduce their emotional thinking and to become able to apply logic. I am in a training where you learn to achieve emotional literacy, hence to increase your emotional empathy. I started to point out Narcs and narcissistic behaviour (of someone who is not in the group) to my two female trainers. And they do not like it. I feel quite a big resistence.
Before I am even asking you I got the answer: to use logic to explain it to them (and to have endurance because they are women :-).
Thank you for your training HG. It is excellent.
You are welcome.
Hi TS:
I get it. My ex often said things that made no sense and I get it now. He wanted attention. I started to “ ex speak” to filter what was going on by knowing external factors and knowing him. I knew he was hurt, angry, falling into despair and like a child who likes a girl so he pulls her head or teases her, he needed reassurance. But it’s exhausting to constantly read what’s going on versus what is being said. And sometimes I am not quite sure because it could be a childhood trigger or an external event like a fight with a friend. I think the superiority is thinking you can behave badly to get what you need despite the harm to others. It’s both a selfishness or lack of emotional empathy and entitlement. My ex suffered crisis often due to poor choices and when he decomposes, others would think a typical psycho lunatic versus low fuel leading to decomposition. I would see it differently even for H.G. externally as his life spiraled down but also all I saw and felt was abject pain. There was no way to truly reach it to treat it. Now I know futile but even without HG’s education I would say draining and no end to it. I left. I feel sadness for him as HG has never said this but I believe some narcs sabotage themselves and self destruct always circling around the thought of death but not liking that idea either. Rarely happy as if putting themselves in purgatory is where they belong. I wonder if there is ANYTHING out there ie meds or counseling that won’t cure them but stabilize them. I don’t want the job but I wonder.
Hi Contagious,
Speaking of your ex, online narc was similar. So much was hinted at or insinuated by what he said, but a lot of it was contradictory or so seemingly non sensical that I spent far too long turning things around, trying to make sense of it. All the while my ET would have been climbing steadily upwards making it even less likely I would ever work him out or see what was actually going on.
The other two narcs I had romantic relationships, weren’t like that really. They showed plenty of other narc behaviours, but nothing close to the vagueness shown by online narc. I think I put it down now to the fact that they were less passive aggressive. Plus, they were in front of me, I had a fighting chance of at least getting a sense of what was meant by whatever it was they said. Online narc messed with my head completely. The written word can be misinterpreted at the best of times, he had the perfect ready made cover.
HG’s response here just didn’t process with me at first. I looked at it through my own lense and as such I just couldn’t relate to it at all. I asked a question and HG answered, I didn’t interpret it as game play or messing with me, (I don’t believe HG does that to empaths on the blog) just an answer that didn’t process. Looking at it from a narcissist’s perspective the answer does make sense, it’s just not something I can directly relate to.
Got there in the end. Only took me 24 hours of pondering haha!
Xx
Hi, Contagious–
I share your lament. But I’m afraid that counseling and medication wouldn’t land a glancing blow. The way I understand it etymologically psychiatry and psychology address the psyche, or the soul if you prefer. Their kind were never ensouled. With narcissists there’s no there there.
Alison,
Perfectly stated.
Hi Contagious,
I know what you mean, I pondered that a lot. Sometimes it is difficult to differentiate between NPD and a treatable mental illness.
I have a friend whose son was a mess, he wouldn’t go to therapy or a psychiatrist for years. He finally asked his Mom to take him and he got the diagnosis of Bi-Polar and got so much better with meds. He still has instability and occasional
Narc like behaviors but he is learning how to more balanced. He is so sweet and kind, which is unusual for considering he is a teenager 😂
Key ingredient: he asked for help.
Narcs don’t admit anything is wrong with them.
Mr. Tudor–
1. Have you ever had an IPPS walk away from you in the middle of one of your devaluing monologues?
2. If your IPPS is particularly high in a specific empathic trait, compassion for example, is that a trait you like to “turn off” once they hit the sustained devaluation?
3. Do you like others to see them with their empathic traits dialed down?
4. Do you find it more difficult to turn off an empathic trait or to activate a narcissistic one or does one naturally follow the other?
5. Are there certain narcissistic traits you select for when you need a new IPPS?
6. Did Andrea have a large geyser element to her? You mentioned that you knew she would fight this way which is part of why she became your IPPS.
7. Have you ever known that you caused a permanent reduction in emotional empathy from an empath while they remain alive?
Thank you so much for your time. Much appreciation.
1. No. I ensure that will not happen.
2. No.
3. No.
4. I do not find one more difficult than the other.
5. Yes.
6. It was a constituent part.
7. No.
Thank you so much for answering, sir.
1. Which narcissistic traits do you like an IPPS to be higher in?
2. Has it ever sharply differed from one IPPS to the next? Does it usually?
You say that those with a little geyser only have one or a few triggers to bring out that behavior.
3. Have those who’ve been IPPS and had that geyser element shared similar triggers for their geyser?
4. Do you prefer those with that limited amount of geyser to fountain more when it comes to negative emotions, being that it provides more potent fuel?
Given that you said you don’t like to turn off a specific empathic trait…
5. Is it more entertaining for you to treat them badly and have them respond with that empathic trait for a period of time? (I’m sure that you will eventually get the negative fuel you crave.)
6. Does that grow boring?
7. Does the amount of time that devaluation lases relate to the amount of time that it takes you to get the negative fuel from them or if a new appliance falls under control quite quickly…does that reduce the need to extract that negative fuel and result in faster disengagement?
Given that you don’t want others to see your IPPS with her traits turned off…
8. Do you get more out of telling others tales (true or otherwise) about how she is more than letting them see it when you begin smearing her?
9. Or is it the potential impact to the facade that is more relevant to you in this situation?
Thank you so much for your time, sir. Much appreciated.
Hello HG;
That’s interesting… can a narc cause a permanent reduction in empathy outside of day PTSD episodes?
I was thinking also of empaths in the military… my Marine son is very compassionate but loves LOGIC. I had a neighbor sort of stalking me. Sent chocolates this Valentines Day then learned he was taking photos of me. I alerted another neighbor who knows him to tell him to stop. I told my son and he said in the military you are taught to think of the worst possible scenario and start from there. Its logic. He doesn’t follow H.G. but loves to talk about facts, evidence, and logic no matter what the topic. So he said this man better not break into our house as he has a gun. That bothered me. I am not sure he means it. But I had a man come to my door last summer who was a migrant and the back door was open and he asked me in Spanish if my husband was home. I speak some Spanish and said messily son was home. His eyes rolled back in his head and he stretched his arms out with his hands making grabbing gestures. I screamed for my son but the man fled. My son took a flashlight and searched every inch of the garage and yard. I would not have thought about him hiding and lingering. I called the police. Made a report. My son was angry at me for even letting him ask a question. He was right. It’s that military training I think. Look at worst case scenario first. But… there’s that American saying shoot first and ask questions later that might take it too far….
Contagious–
HG has said that a reduction in empathy can be permanent (if I recall correctly).
It can for sure. 100%
Reduction in empathy can be permanent. HG speaks the truth.
Hi Dani,
Where did you see or hear this? Did it person to empaths or normals or both? Just curious.
Hi AV!
HG didn’t specify the classification of the person involved to my memory. As I recall, he just said, “A person can experience a permanent reduction in their emotional empathy, but it is rare.”
I don’t remember exactly where it was that he said that. I’m 99% sure it’s on the Ultra channel. My best guess would be in one of the lives, interviews, or ask HG. I think it was relatively recent that I viewed it, though it may be an older video…I think it’s more recent. Those are among my favorite videos of HG’s. I listen to them repeatedly. (Those and all the information about the schools/cadres of the empath.)
Also I recently started comparing some videos from the first YouTube channel and the Ultra channel and the corresponding article on the blog. It’s an experience, watching HG’s awareness grow and how he changed his communication style and added more information (in some re-records).
Hi Dani,
Thank you for the reply. I think there are two different ideas happening here maybe, on this thread. The idea I was initially thinking of, and possibly the rare one that HG was referring to, is an overall and permanent reduction, toward people in general, in one’s empathy due to an event, situation or circumstance.
Then there is the reduced empathy toward one or a few, as in my complete reduction toward my ex. It was gone when he left and has never come back.
Then the situation that Alexissmith and I were talking about, reduced empathy but also controlled empathy, where we decide who gets it, post narc education. I’m not sure that’s quite the same, the empathy is still there but we are more aware of it and can give it or not as we see fit. Though I had not considered that in such straightforward terms before. It was a good lightbulb!
Dani, I forgot, the first YT channel was the only one when I first arrived, it was fantastic for it’s time! But I agree, HG has only improved! It’s been fun to watch!
Hi AV,
AV: “I think there are two different ideas happening here…The idea I was initially thinking of, and possibly the rare one that HG was referring to, is an overall and permanent reduction, toward people in general, in one’s empathy due to an event, situation or circumstance.” — I agree. I think that is what HG meant when it was originally said, because he has consistently maintained that reductions of emotional empathy can be temporary…any classification can hit someone…an empath is defending themself or someone they love…whereas a narcissist is asserting control.
AV: “Then there is the reduced empathy toward one or a few, as in my complete reduction toward my ex. It was gone when he left and has never come back.” — Yes, the reduction or elimination.
AV: “Then the situation that Alexissmith and I were talking about, reduced empathy but also controlled empathy, where we decide who gets it, post narc education. I’m not sure that’s quite the same, the empathy is still there but we are more aware of it and can give it or not as we see fit. Though I had not considered that in such straightforward terms before. It was a good lightbulb!”
How do you feel the empathy differs beyond your awareness and control over giving it, after exposure to HG’s work?
Do you think there is an upper limit to the amount of time that an empath can function in a reduced emotional empathy state believing that they are the problem? I’m sure it will vary somewhat, depending on school/cadre…but will a saviour empath stop say…volunteering at local charities and stop caring long term…and devote all their saving energy to a victim narc…or is the urge to save such that they would “deteriorate” if not allowed to do all the saving their hearts desire? How would school of empath impact the deterioration, if at all?
I would say possible reduction in the scope of empathy with more focus on where it is placed where a Saviour is concerned.
@Dani,
“How do you feel the empathy differs beyond your awareness and control over giving it, after exposure to HG’s work?”
I am aware of it now, I wasn’t before. Being aware of it has allowed me to learn to know when it’s affecting my thinking, which is usually, but now I can choose to ignore it and use logic more than I could before. It was like a wild element in me before, out of control and yet running the show most of the time.
“Do you think there is an upper limit to the amount of time that an empath can function in a reduced emotional empathy state believing that they are the problem? I’m sure it will vary somewhat, depending on school/cadre…but will a saviour empath stop say…volunteering at local charities and stop caring long term…and devote all their saving energy to a victim narc…or is the urge to save such that they would “deteriorate” if not allowed to do all the saving their hearts desire?”
I can only answer for me, I have limits. I think that is the very strong super showing. And when my limits are reached, it is done.
I have observed people, myself included, who may take a very long time to get you that point though. And for me, yes, things dropped off so that I had time and energy to focus on improving the relationship with the narc.
“How would school of empath impact the deterioration, if at all?”
I think it affects it a lot, we know from what HG had taught us that this is true. From my own experience, once the line is drawn, that’s it. And I put up with far less in some ways than my daughter, a majority CoD did before I drew the line, once I was an adult. As a child I had no control over things so my line was drawn in my heart toward my abuser, that has never changed, there has never been empathy toward that person. CoD’s will often not draw a line, or will do so quite often only after severe abuse and intervention. Even then it can be difficult to get them to let go. It is a heartbreaking thing to witness.
There has been discussion here previously about “I will leave if…” And then we don’t and we move the line. I did that in my two romantic relationships. But I had internal lines and once they were crossed, even though they were likely much further than another empaths who is majority super, or a normal, that was it. I don’t know if CoD’s, or other schools have that as much. And also, the lines would vary from person to person, some okay with being cheated on for example but not physical abuse, others vice versa. We are all unique.
Would you draw a line? Would you act on it?
Thank you, NA.
That makes sense. That the scope reduces down to being “all for the narc and none for the empath to share with others!”
Do you think some narcissists are better at corrupting one school over another? And how would that work for quad/quint hybrids…can a cadre come to dominate in a quad/quint hybrid based on the manipulations that the empath is most frequently being exposed to?
AV–
AV: “for me, yes, things dropped off so that I had time and energy to focus on improving the relationship with the narc.”
Did that dropping of other things you enjoyed upset you at the time or did it feel like the right thing to do?
AV: “As a child I had no control over things so my line was drawn in my heart toward my abuser, that has never changed, there has never been empathy toward that person…”
Did you want to feel for that person as a child? Did you stop wanting that person to care about you after drawing that line?
AV: “Would you draw a line?”
I used to believe that I was good at it. Looking back, I can see that wasn’t the case at times when it would have benefited me. But yes, I would and I have. I have made or accepted excuses for poor behaviour from a range of people and continued in what I would call a sinking ship. I don’t see myself doing that as often now…I have mixed feelings about how I draw lines. I worry that I draw them with more of the wrong people than the right ones.
AV: “Would you act on it?”
I have several different experiences with standing my ground/acting on the line that has been drawn.
For some, I was pushed (emotionally). What I remember feeling at the time and if I dwell on it (not often), was no thinking, just doing. I had clarity. I was calm. I was firm. There was no shrinking. There were/are no questions, then or now, about being wrong. I was right. I remember the other person involved is usually livid, but it doesn’t register. There is nothing negative in me. There is nothing I see as negative now regarding my actions. Those particular moments felt like the equivalent of the elementary school yard chant…”I’m made of rubber. You’re made of glue. Whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you.” This is quite rare for me, with the standing my ground and nothing is felt but clarity until the other person backs down. Most of the time, I stop engaging because I hate feeding a situation that will ultimately be blamed on me (from what I’ve seen in the past) or don’t engage in the first place to suffocate the spark of the argument.
Other lines that I’ve drawn caused me distress at the time I took them. I blamed myself. I don’t regret my decision now. I don’t feel upset when I look back on those events, but I was upset then. I felt like a failure, even though in my heart, I knew what was being asked for something unreasonable by someone who was using me, despite their protestations that they ‘didn’t want to be that kind of person.’ amongst other manipulations.
At the present time, I think the line I feel now is different than the prior situations. I’ve started taking pre-emptive action, now, different from the above examples. I find my feelings are mix of upset and something wanting to be that clarity. Part of the time, while the situation is in progress, it feels petty by comparison to the earlier moments of clarity.
I haven’t asked for much of the people I’m behaving differently toward. For years, they’ve ignored my feelings and requests, evidenced by the repeated situations I end up in with them. They don’t see it as a big deal to lie to me and put me in overwhelming situations. Overall, my changes of behaviour have resulted in far less stress, physically and emotionally. I feel like that is something of a win, if not the perfect win–which is what I call the clarity situation.
I feel like whether I am/was interacting with a pain-in-butt normal, a narcissistic twit, an empath on the edge, or a full blown narcissist in the above situations, the most important thing is taking decisive action. I hope that the more frequently I practice this skill, the easier it will become and maybe clarity will come with it.
Those are my current thoughts and observations based on what I’ve learned from Mr. Tudor. I’m certain I have more to learn from him, and if there were a Tudor University, I would take the classes, directly from the master.
Hi Dani,
Wow! Thank you so much for that wonderful reply! You have learned much! It was exciting to read that and I feel I know you a little better now. And that we have walked some similar paths. Thank you for sharing!
Dani: “Did that dropping of other things you enjoyed upset you at the time or did it feel like the right thing to do?”
I didn’t think of it really at all, it was just part of my life at the time and had to be done. What I did get upset about was that my ex did not give up anything, in fact, he developed even more outside interests and activities. That was very upsetting and really brought home to me that we were not equal partners in the marriage.
Dani: “Did you want to feel for that person as a child? Did you stop wanting that person to care about you after drawing that line?”
I never felt that that person did care about me, they were doing their duty. I don’t remember wanting to feel for them, I was not conscious of any line, it was always there, in my memory. It was almost like an agreement, in an odd way. No connection or bonding. I am very glad for the super in my empathic makeup because I believe it is the reason I did not need certain things as a child and also I believe why I was rather impervious to many (not all) of the messages that were sent, both in words and behaviors. I was almost forced to figure out how to keep my own chin up, or be sucked down somewhere I didn’t know about, which didn’t present itself as an option until later. After 35 years of narc manipulations, those thoughts came. But as a child it just was how it was and I made the best of it that I could.
AV–
Thank you for your response.
I can certainly identify with realizing that the investment of time/energy/emotion/etc is not equally distributed amongst all parties in a relationship. Not in a marriage. But in family/friendships, definitely. And the results of gradually or suddenly ceasing to give at the same quantity…I’m sure that all empaths have a variety of stories…tilting against, “You can afford it…they can’t…so give. Give. GIVE!”
AV: “I never felt that that person did care about me, they were doing their duty. I don’t remember wanting to feel for them, I was not conscious of any line, it was always there, in my memory. It was almost like an agreement, in an odd way. No connection or bonding. I am very glad for the super in my empathic makeup because I believe it is the reason I did not need certain things as a child and also I believe why I was rather impervious to many (not all) of the messages that were sent, both in words and behaviors. I was almost forced to figure out how to keep my own chin up, or be sucked down somewhere I didn’t know about, which didn’t present itself as an option until later. After 35 years of narc manipulations, those thoughts came. But as a child it just was how it was and I made the best of it that I could.”
This paragraph has given me much to think about. I’m not sure where my thoughts will take me, but I’m sure the journey will be productive. There are differences for me and strong similarities. Thank you.
HG,
In this scene you choose greed as a way to manipulate. The fact Andrea took the last of the bottle of wine irritated but likely didn’t anger you. It did present opportunity though.
1. I accept that negative fuel is more potent, however, is it also the case that it’s largely irrelevant to you what you actually say to an IPPS so long as it gets the reaction you want?
2. How often do you actually mean / believe what you say when you devalue an IPPS?
3. Given your ‘optimism’ at the start of a new relationship, how often do you actually mean what you say to an IPPS during the golden period?
Only if you have time, thank you.
1. The end justifies the means.
2. I always mean it, even when I know it not to be true.
3. See 2.
Thank you for your responses HG.
“I always mean it, even when I know it not to be true.” I’m not sure what you mean. ( haha!)
Option 1. “I always mean it” You ‘mean it’ because you consider the manipulation to be necessary?
Or
Option 2. “I always mean it” You mean what you say in the moment that you say it, “even when I know it not to be true” whilst simultaneously in that moment knowing that what you are saying is untrue?
If option 2 is correct, that would mean that your narcissism operates concurrently with your awareness, rather than independently of your awareness. Essentially, two streams of thought at the same time?
Did you mean option one or option two please?
Option 1.
Thank goodness it’s option 1. Whoever came up with option 2 must be completely nuts!
Thank you for clarifying HG.