Knowing the Narcissist : The Carrier Empath
The Carrier Empath. A particular type of empathetic individual who naturally gains the attention of our kind. As I have explained before, our kind are drawn to empathetic individuals who fall within one of the classes of empath. Those classes consist of The Empath, The Super Empath and The Co-Dependent.
The Carrier Empath is a particular division of those classes and therefore can be found amidst any of those classes. The Carrier Empath is not a stand-alone form of empath but rather is embodied by exhibiting Carrier tendencies which “bolt on” to the relevant class of empathic individual.
The Carrier Empath shoulders, more than others, the emotional burden. This person rarely talks about themselves, although they have much they could talk about, either as a consequence of their natural intelligence which lends itself to considerable discourse, their ability to connect with people and engage in what could be termed as small talk so people are put at ease or because of their extensive experiences they have much they could share with other people.
The Carrier Empath does not see it as necessary to talk about themselves. All empaths are good listeners, it is one of the empathic traits which our kind look for, but the Carrier Empath is a superlative listener. Exhibiting considerable patience, he or she will sit and listen to the woes and problems of others. They do not jump to conclusions, as many people would, instinctively forming a view of the person they are engaging with, within moments of meeting. Instead, the Carrier Empath is able to resist making an early judgement about this person and will listen to what they have to say, so they can best work out how to assist. The Carrier Empath knows full well that sometimes just being listened to is the best thing for another person.
Those with Carrier tendencies are work-like in their approach, reliable, organised and effective when facing pressure. They regard it as their role to take on responsibility for others and struggle to determine the boundary of when they should not do so. They are unable to avoid taking on other people’s issues and problems and feel a need to assist but to do so through actions and a practical application of their compassion, honesty, decency and understanding.
The Carrier Empath is not a person who overflows with emotion but is certainly not devoid of it. Their emotion does not appear in surges and spikes, histrionic reactions as a consequence of the situation which they find themselves in but rather as a steady and reliable provider of fuel through their evident compassion and supportive nature. Whilst caught in the dizzying devaluation, some empaths will find themselves despairing and having up days and down days whilst they experience the push and pull behaviours, the Carrier Empath adopts a stoic approach.
Inside he or she may be churning but they do their best to maintain a brave face as they seek to remain dependable and forging forward. This person is solid and dependable. They are not a dullard, but they do not shine and glow like other empathic individuals. They are grounded, practical, pragmatic and excellent problem solvers.
The Carrier Empath is unable to leave responsibility with others. They regard it as their task to be responsible for other people and they rarely judge the flaws of others, but rather see it as an opportunity for them to shoulder the burden. They will remain with those who suffer from addictions, seeing it as part of their obligation to remain and fight the fight on behalf of the afflicted.
The Carrier Empath readily takes on the problems of others and will do so even when this becomes a drain on his or her resources, such as time and money. They may have somewhere they need to be but if the telephone call is continuing because the caller needs help and assistance, the Carrier Empath will continue to listen.
There is a strong sense of obligation on the part of the Carrier Empath. Whilst empaths as whole feel obligation, the empath will assist because they feel good about doing so, in a way, they gain a form of their own fuel from helping others. The Co-Dependent will usually help because he or she has to do so, being of a giving nature in order to find validation for themselves in terms of their place in the order of things. The Super Empath relished the challenge that is presented and regards it as an opportunity to exhibit their powers.
Layer the Carrier Empath onto any of those classes and you add a complexion of obligation – the relevant class of empath does it because that is what should be done, that is the right thing to do and they have an obligation to care. They will recognise that the task in hand may be difficult, they will note that it will drain them but their fearsome sense of duty causes them to be the first to volunteer and the last to give up.
This division of empathic individual is certainly compassionate but approaches matters in a practical manner rather than “hearts and flowers” and whilst they will certainly use words to comfort, to support and to show empathy they prefer to rely on actions. If someone is suffering, rather than hand out tea and sympathy, the Carrier Empath will assume the mantle of the problem themselves and tackle it head on. They are especially apt at standing in the shoes of somebody in order to absorb the blast on behalf of someone who is struggling or wants their help. They are the proverbial person who would take a bullet.
Such individuals are prized by our kind, but by certain narcissists in particular. There is the provision of fuel, that has to always be there, but it does not always fountain from the Carrier Empath. Greaters tend not to choose those with Carrier Empath tendencies as a primary source because the gushing appreciation is not the style of the Carrier Empath, furthermore, the Greater tends to be more resourceful and therefore has less need of this element of the Carrier Empath. Instead, the Carrier Empath is desired by the Lesser and Mid-Range schools and especially so by the Victim Narcissist.
The Victim Narcissist derives fuel from the provision of care and compassion. His less impressive countenance is not one which results in gushing praise and over-the-top appreciation. Accordingly, the exhibition of care and compassion gives him the fuel he wants plus the residual benefits he requires and this is always preferable to the empath who gushes with praise but does little in the way of practical care. Thus those with Carrier tendencies are more suited to the Victim Narcissist.
Furthermore, the Carrier Empath comes with considerable residual benefits in terms of the provision of caring for someone with poor health, dealing with chores and problems on that person’s behalf, providing food, shelter, money and such like and therefore this raft of residual benefits appeals to Lesser Narcissists in particular and naturally the Victim Narcissist from the Lesser School.
The Carrier’s capacity for “taking the bullet” results in them also having appeal to the Mid-Range Narcissist. The passive aggressive Mid-Range Narcissist who finds that he is not able to get his way with a third party will invariably turn to the Carrier Empath to step up on his or her behalf and get the problem sorted. If weakened from a lack of fuel and potential criticism from this third party, the Mid-Range will turn to the Carrier Empath to make everything alright again and the Carrier Empath will dutifully attend to his.
During devaluation the Carrier Empath is wounded and confused by the manipulations used against him or her, but their sense of duty carries them forward and they will often fall victim to the narcissist’s capacity to blame others. Accordingly, if the narcissist blames his outburst on being overworked, the Carrier Empath will accept this explanation and will look at ways of alleviating the load on the narcissist, by taking more on him or herself or even going so far as to challenge the boss of the narcissist to secure a reduction in workload. The narcissist knows that with a Carrier Empath he can in effect point that person in the direction of a problem and the Carrier Empath will march into battle on his behalf. Again, this is why the Greater has less of a need for those with Carrier tendencies and why those of a Lesser or Mid-Range school have more reliance on the Carrier.
Devaluation causes those with Carrier tendencies to battle on in the hope of resolving the narcissist’s problems. The Carrier is less inclined to blame themselves. They do not see themselves as the cause of the problems which the narcissist alludes to during devaluation, but rather only blame themselves for not resolving those problems. The Carrier is blinded to understanding that there is no fix, but regards every problem as having a solution which will, with the right application of energy and resource, eventually present itself. The worse the narcissist becomes during devaluation, the more those with the Carrier tendency will apply themselves to trying to sort the problem out and usually identifies an external source (wrongly) as the source of the problem and is ultimately sent on a wild goose chase trying to tackle this external source whilst the problems continue unabated.
If the relevant narcissist does not have a primary source with Carrier tendencies it is likely that one will be recruited as a secondary source. This is more likely with the Greater who will prefer the primary source to be fountaining with fuel (rather than providing a host of residual benefits) and to have a secondary source who can be turned to as and when required, perhaps at moments of crisis, to be utilised for their Carrier traits. Whilst the Lesser and Mid-Range narcissist and especially the Victim Narcissist cadre of those two schools will want a Carrier Empath as a primary source, the Greater will position one as a secondary source since they make excellent Lieutenants.
It is common to find that the scape-goated child of a narcissist, if they avoid becoming a narcissist themselves, tends to exhibit strong Carrier tendencies because they realise that by getting things done, having to attend to their own needs because the narcissistic parent has abandoned their duties at an early stage and also having to parent the narcissistic parent, is the most effective method of surviving. They care but do so without “showiness” and deliver in a practical and dependable manner.
It is also worth noting that as some narcissists age they will gravitate more to securing a primary source who is a Carrier Empath. Though fuel remains important, the need for the residual benefits becomes increasingly important for those narcissists who see their looks fading, their mobility decreasing and therefore suffer a reduction in their ability to charm and attract. Of course, this is not applicable to all of our kind, since many become distinguished with age, have the magnetism that comes from financial power and their innate charisma and sharp mind remain undulled. However, for those that see the waning of their powers, the Carrier Empath becomes more attractive to them.
146 thoughts on “Knowing the Narcissist : The Carrier Empath”
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Hi Rebecca,
I’ve been thinking about your comment about your mom’s passing and how you felt at the time. I already responded once but I thought about a couple of other thimgs too.
Before I knew my parents were narcs, I remember reading a comment from Isabelle describing her parents as genitors. That comment really resonated with me because I viewed my parents the same way. They were just donors. They were not parents.
In the beginning of the year, my dear, older brother passed. I believe that he was my intervener. He was on life support for nearly 3 weeks. The reason I’m telling you this is because my mother didn’t come to the hospital once or to his funeral. But you can bet your bippy that shes using his death as a way to get fuel. She couldn’t even come say goodbye to her first born.
This is why I have to see my parents as a genitors. It helps me detach. I wanted to share because I thought the term genitor might help you the way it helped me.
Hi Leigh,
I’m sorry you lost your brother. My deepest sympathies for your loss. Xx I’m glad he was your intervener and you felt loved growing up. I hope the funeral and all weren’t difficult for you. Xx
I know what you mean about your mom not showing up to her son’s funeral, my husband’s brother didn’t show up for his mom’s funeral either and he lived with her until she died. What a jerk and selfish a##! I know how you feel, it’s shocking and it hurts. Xx
My Dad was a good day, he was my intervener. He was also my mother’s enabler. He didn’t understand who she really was and he loved her. I know, excuse for him…but, he was ensnared and didn’t have HG’s work….another excuse. I loved him and still do, for the most part he was a great Dad. He really was.
My mother, well, she was a LMRV narc and that speaks for itself. We know how narc mothers can be and yet, still loved her, despite it. Detaching is hard for me. My maternal Uncle’s wife once told me, it was a miracle I survived with LMRVN being my mother, she was the most selfish, neglecful, abusive woman she ever knew. I was both shocked and validated hearing her say that. I felt, someone else noticed it all?? Someone else saw it too?? And then her daughter said the same, we were all talking together, over the phone. I felt happy, odd right? To feel happy to know someone else knew…I cried, I felt relief and happy. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
I had saw comment you made about when your mom was in the hospital. She wanted you to come and you couldn’t get there right away because you had to work. I had sensed a little guilt from you. That’s why I also spoke about viewing your mom as a genitor. I thought it might help to view her that way because it might be easier detach and release any guilt you might have for not getting to the hospital sooner.
I do remember that your father was a normal and your intervener.
The biggest issue I’m having with my brother being gone is that I wanted his life to matter to someone other than me. He was mentally disabled so he had never been married and never had children. I have another brother as well and he didn’t come to the funeral either. I stll find it troublesome and it makes me incredibly sad to think he only had me. My mother and brother didn’t care enough to come say goodbye. Assholes!
Anyway, enough about that. Thats enough of me being sensitive, lol!
It’s those kinds of things that help me detach from those nasty narcs.
One other thing, Rebecca. It’s not odd at all that you were happy. When they validated you, it meant it wasn’t you. It was your mother. That why you felt relief as well. You no longer had to carry the burden that it was your fault. It’s very freeing!
Hi Rebecca,
I love that you got validation from your aunt and cousin about your mother’s behavior. I can understand you feeling relief and even happy about it. Relief because it meant you no longer had to carry the burden that it was your fault. Happiness because others knew the truth.
Hi Leigh,
Yes, you are so right about my feelings and thoughts behind them! Xx I was so happy to know she didn’t fool everyone! It was so upsetting when the family counselor we had , when I was a kid, believed she was the one being abused by her family. I found that so frustrating and I felt unheard and dismissed by our counselor. She even told my mother that my anorexia, at the time, was more than she could deal with professionally. She became very close to my mother and a bit too familiar with her. My sessions ended and I was left to feel I was the bad seed. It was a deeply hurtful experience for me as a kid.
It was entirely liberating to hear my aunt and cousin tell me that my mother was a bad piece of work. Who she was at home with her family, including her brother’s family and her own kids and husband, was a totally different beast , than who she was at church and out in public. Public facade was a weak, feeble, completely blind , wheelchair bound woman. At home, she could walk, she could see somethings and she ruled with yelling her orders! You better snap to it, too!
The church people and Pastor were fooled, they catered to her so much, treated her like a pitiful woman, her facade was pity me, pity me. LMRVN that she was, pity her was her goal. It was annoying to watch and sometimes it would make me mad, that they belived it, but I said nothing. I kept it quiet, I didn’t betray her. I was conditioned to keep up her facade, no matter what.
I was in my 20s, when I was brave enough to defy her and I told my husband and I told my best friend, and then I told my counselor. Her secret was out and I emotionally withdrew from her slowly overtime, until finally, when the end of her life came, we were barely talking and I hadn’t seen her in months.
I felt such relief, such happiness, when her mask was seen through by others. I asked my maternal aunt, “Was she like this as a kid too?” “Yes, she said, she was selfish and mean as a kid too. She could turn on the charm and turn it off too.” She just confirmed my mother’s behaviors and how I walked on eggshells growing up. It was like, will she be mean today, or nice? How is her vibe, calm or mad? I would use her moods to tell me, to either avoid or be safe around her.
I still do that whenever I’m around anyone, read them, is it safe? Conditioning, instinct, survival mode, whatever you want to call it. I survived it, she’s buried, 6 ft under and she’s dead. That’s what I tell myself now, Leigh. She’s dead and she was a terrible failure as a mother. Sounds harsh, but it’s the truth. I do feel better knowing it wasn’t just me. seeing her for who she really was. Thank you, Leigh. Xx
Thank you for your story, Rebecca.
You’re welcome, Allison xx
Leigh,
I want to share a story about my mother that her sister in-law told me, my aunt. Xx
She told me, during the same phone conversation, that when her husband died, my mother’s brother, my mother was there at her house after his funeral.
She said, my mother was laying down on my aunt’s sofa and she was loudly moaning and carrying on about missing her brother. She put on a show about how much she hurt and she kept moaning loudly too. Put her hand on her head and tilted it back just moaning.
She told me, she really looked to be in emotional pain, but she knew my mother and knew it to be an act. She tested it by telling my mother, “If you feel that bad, you can go to my bed and laydown, be more comfortable and away from other people seeing you in pain.”
My mother quickly sat up and said, “No, I’ll be fine, I don’t want to miss all the guest coming. I’m fine.”
She took note of how quickly she recovered and how she didn’t want to miss out on all that attention from the guest coming. It was kinda of comical, because I pictured it all in my mind and her behavior is so over the top, like she really cared about her brother. They fought like cats and dogs and her brother didn’t take her bs. He told her off a lot and didn’t tolerate her. I think he was a Normal and had little patience for her. Her brother’s family didn’t tolerate her much at all.
The story made me embarrased by her behavior, but it was kinda funny too. She was ridicules, she tried to get pity from her own brother’s widow, on the day of his funeral. Ridiculous and I told her, I’m sorry my mother was so ridiculous. How embarrassing! What childish behavior. She didn’t care what my aunt was going through, no it was all about her, like how she lived. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Ever since I’ve learned about how death affects the narcissist, I can’t help but pay attention at wakes and funerals now. There’s almost always someone whose putting on a show and needing to be the center of attention.
Hi Leigh,
Both my parents’ birthdays are this month. I celebrate my Dad’s birthday and I don’t celebrate my mother’s birthday. Now, I’m more relieved she’s not here anymore and that’s a present all by itself. It took me a while to feel more relief, than guilt, but I think I’ve reached that point. Xx
Happy Heavenly Birthday to your Dad!
I’m glad you’re started to feel relief with regards to your mom. Its ok to let go of the burden of guilt. Its not healthy to hold onto it.
Hi Leigh,
Thank you, for the encouragement, it wasn’t an easy thing to do, to let go of some of the guilt. Xx
It bothers me some, when some people ask me why I don’t acknowledge her birthday on my media post, like I do my Dad’s.
It’s hard one for me to answer and I tell them, “it’s more than I want to go into right now.” They look at me funny, but I don’t say anything more.
How do you tell someone that your mother was neglectful, abusive and not worth celebrating? It makes you look like an ungrateful daughter….This time of year, I see a lot of the same sentiments on other post….”You only have one mother, once she’s gone, she’s gone”
I for one can say, I’m glad I had only one of her, one was enough. Xx
I hear ya, Rebecca! I’m glad I only had one of my mom too!
I stopped acknowledging my mom’s birthday and Mother’s day on Facebook. I did it for years. But a couple of years ago, I decided to stop. I totally understand why you don’t want to acknowledge her birthday. Don’t worry about what others think. Its none of their business. If someone makes a comment on one of my Facebook posts that I don’t like, I delete it and don’t respond to it. Sometimes I’ve even gone as far as unfriending them. At the risk of sounding like the Dark Empath that Mr. Tudor just did a video about, I don’t post for others, I post for myself. Its how I keep a journal and it irritates me when people put dumb comments.
Hi Leigh,
Yeah, narcs and funerals….my narc husband and his family, at his mother’s funeral…would have made a great comedy movie! The attention seeking and craziness. As an example: His brother was preaching at his mother’s wake, inside of a real Pastor, who he was supposed to have hired for the funeral services. It was a mess, it was nothing more than him doing his “holy man’ act and I’m sure if she could, my mother in law would have walked out of her coffin and left. As it was, she was stuck listening to his sermon in her coffin. It was the only time I felt envy for the dead. Xx
Leigh, about people putting on a show at funerals I remember it being really entertaining. Funerals were a pastime for some in my familial and social group and they could be such theater! Wonderful opportunities for huge amounts of fuel and controlling people. The living flinging themselves onto the body, wailing “Come back!”, being restrained from jumping into the hole at the gravesite service, screaming and falling down and fainting and tearing clothes and jumping and holy rolling. I’d daydream sometimes that, for once, the dearly departed would arise in response and say, “Okay. I’m back!”
Hi, annaamel–
“Boundaries can feel mean and rude and wrong on an instinctive level.” Thank you for this. Very true. I think in my case being raised by a narcissist really built into me a fear of setting limits. I was raised to live and act entirely in accordance with her demands. There was to be no separation between us. I had to want what she wanted, or else. My life and my mind weren’t my own, and I was entirely an extension of her. Her lack of boundary recognition meant that as I went through the normal process of individuation she punished that at every turn, so I learned to fear my own needs and wants and opinions. She performed all sorts of mind games any time I made even the slightest expression of being a separate entity from her. HG’s teaching on that aspect of the narcissist has been so illuminating in helping me resolve my confusion about her behavior.
In my child’s mind my expression of my preference for, say, pears over apples could potentially make her sick or kill her. Or it could make her so enraged she might kill me. She exhibited very intense reactions to the most basic needs of a child. As I understand it now I was just an object, an appliance, and my needs were a threat to her control. I malfunctioned. My request for a pear instead of the offered apple, even though pears were present, amounted to challenge fuel. And that made her furious. That terrified me, so I learned not to want things.
Later when I began college if I didn’t call her several times a day, no matter how busy I was, I was neglecting her and, again, possibly killing her or causing her to harm me. I can now see how this constant barrage of her twisted reality made me reflexively afraid to set boundaries, express my own opinions, and take up for myself. So, it can be really difficult, but I try to make sure I observe my internal reactions as I’m dealing with people and perform logic on my emotional movements. It doesn’t always feel great for me to set limits; it’s like hitting a new muscle group hard in the gym. But the more I do it the less it bothers me and the stronger I get. At times I find myself even enjoying the process and the effects. I appreciate the discussion.
Hi Allison,
This comment really stuck out to me. My mother’s weapon of choice was food. I never quite looked at it this way though. Your comment has given me a different perspective.
I would often go to bed hungry because she didn’t feed us. She didn’t cook so I ate a lot of bologna sandwiches or cereal. I remember telling her that I was hungry and she’d tell me that I don’t eat anything she gives me. Eventually she stopped trying to feed me.
I had a light bulb moment reading your comment. She stopped trying to feed me because I challenged her and threatened her control.
Fucklng A!
Hi, Leigh–
Interesting. They can use access to the basic necessities of life in such insidious ways. Addressing threats to control from a child through food costs them very little. And, more darkly, by not engaging with feeding you I’m sure it gave her some thought fuel through knowing you were hungry and had limited means of taking care of that need as a child. There was still food in the house you could get to, but I wonder if it might have served at least two of the Prime Aims for her by knowing you were still in need of her care, but she was denying you.
In my own case my mother enjoyed making me eat things I didn’t want–but, not in an “eat your vegetables” way. She’d make me eat Vaseline and other non-food or noxious items. During the holidays she made huge, delicious dinners and we’d eat in the big dining area with all the fancy dinnerware, then it was back to things that were foods I didn’t want or that were not foods at all. Consequently, I was sick a lot and she denigrated me for that. My stomach was a real battleground.
Hi Allison and Leigh,
I hope it’s ok for me to add to your conversation here. Sorry to intrude. Xx
My LMRVN mother would cook sometimes, but she usually cooked food I didn’t like, so I would eat cereal or a sandwich and make my own meal.
She didn’t start with the body shaming until I hit puberty and then she would critisize what I ate and my body, hair etc.
I didn’t realize food was a weapon for her, she used it to shane me and control me. “You going to eat that? You shouldn’t be eating that. You’ll gain weight and you’ll be made fun of. ” I developed anorexia in my late teens because I was afraid of gaining weight and I would exercise anytime I felt quilty for eating and I would exercise for hours after school. I was so afraid of gaining weight and being made fun of. She messed with my self body image and fear of being unloved and made fun of.
When she did cook, it was fried foods, stuff that made my stomach hurt and get a bit of IBS from her cooking, so it was easier for me to eat cereal or a sandwich.
I got an ulcer in 2nd grade, I think it was from the stress of living with her and her crazy mood swings. She was diagnosed biopolar and wouldn’t take meds for it. She was also diabetic, insulin dependent one. I thought her behaviors were from her mental disorder and her diabetes. I would have never thought a narc, as a child or teen. Xx
Rebecca,
Its crazy how we did similar things to survive. We were resourceful!
My brother used to say I love you to my mother and she wouldn’t even respond.
I’m sorry your mother body shamed you. These women really are awful.
I had thought my mother’s issues were from psychosis too.
Feel free to jump in any time, Rebecca! I wonder if it’s the case that narcissistic mothers really focus in on daughters when they go through puberty in an extreme way. External signs of the daughter coming into womanhood seems like it would be a tremendous threat to control, so I imagine the narcissism would really be drawn to that.
So, thinking it through here: to nullify the threat it uses means to thwart the development of the young woman–denying nutrition and manipulating all the various areas linked to the individuation puberty represents. The taller and more gangly I got, the larger my chest got, the broader my hips, the more I was referred to as a “big old ox” though being quite slim. Your case also makes a twisted sort of sense.
Hi Allison,
I had to grow up real fast because of it. I had an older brother that was disabled and a younger brother too. I had to figure shit out quickly.
My mother didn’t leave the house so my father did the shopping. But only for a short while. I eventually took on that role. I was 9. My disabled brother took on a lot of her caregiving as well. He was mentally disabled and was probably at about a 3rd or 4th grade level.
I remember having stomach aches all the time too. Sometimes when she gave me something, I remember saying to her that it tastes funny. Sometimes I wonder about that but I don’t have any real proof that she did anything to the food. Maybe she did something gross to it so I wouldn’t eat. Then I could tell her that I was hungry and she’d get fuel. That wouldn’t surprise me in the least. She’s vile!
I’m sorry your mom did those things. Is she still in your life? My mom is a lower mid range victim narc and lives in a nursing home. I havent seen her since March of 2020. Hallelujah!
Hi Allison,
My original response must’ve got lost in the clouds somewhere, lol.
My mother’s neglect caused me to quickly grow up. My mother doesn’t go outside. My older brother was mentally disabled and I had a younger brother as well. I don’t want to say that I took on the role of mother though, because I didn’t. We all kind of pitched in. My older brother was really my mother’s caregiver. She was abhorrent to him. I remember my dad sometimes would food shop but I also remember doing it as young as 9.
I had stomach aches all the time too. I don’t want to say she was putting something in the food because I don’t have have any proof of that. But I also wouldn’t put it past her if she did. I remember telling her that it tastes funny.
I’m sorry you had to experience that. In my original comment I had asked if you’re still in contact with your mother. After reading your response to AA I now see it wasn’t your biological mother. Can I ask what happened with your biological mother? Was the woman who did these things to you, your step mother? Do you have any contact with her still?
My mother’s in a nursing home. She’s a lower mid range victim narcissist. I haven’t seen her since March of 2020. Hallelujah!
Hi, Leigh–
Argh–lost comments! *Old Man Yells at Cloud*
Congratulations on having no contact with her! You went through some difficult circumstances and I’m glad you’ve found a way to pull something from it all. Chilling to think she might have been tampering with your food. I’m so sorry that had to cross your mind as a possibility. Keep strong.
Bio Mom was kind of in and out. She had a disorder and she was in and out of sanitariums while I grew up. When she was around she spent a lot of time laughing with people I couldn’t see, and she talked about how bombs were in all the electronic devices. I saw her a few years ago and she had gotten better with no more delusions. She seemed very sweet, but too vulnerable as always. I never had a real relationship with her between the hospitals and her running off with random men all the time. I don’t wish her ill and I struggle with how much I should hold her accountable. She was sick, after all, but she had a real appetite for men that brought lot of trouble. She was more like an absent big sister than a mother because the woman who raised me had raised her as well. *Insert Chinatown joke here.*
I’m not sure how my guardian got my mother; word was she had purchased her, but it was puzzling because I had been introduced to my maternal grandparents. So, they were alive and nearby, but who knows what went on there. The woman who raised me was a widow–she’d killed her husband years before–and I think I wasn’t legally adopted. It was easy to do a ‘no paperwork type thing’ back in the gap. It’s possible my bio mother is still alive, but it was a few years ago that I saw her. But the notorious harridan who raised me died about 16 years ago. Ding dong.
Hi Allison,
Technically I’m almost no contact with my mom. I don’t visit her anymore and I don’t call her but I allow phone calls from her. I keep the phone calls very brief though. They don’t last more than 5 or 10 minutes. I think the last time I heard from her was probably 2 months ago. She’s been putting me on the shelf for longer periods of time now. I’m ok with that!
Thank you for sharing a piece of your history. My mom has some issues as well. She’s been diagnosed with mood disorder and schizo effective disorder. I used to give her a pass for that. I don’t anymore.
You said the woman who raised you killed her husband. Can I ask how?
Was your father around? Is he still around? My Dad passed 15 years ago. He was a narc too. He left without saying goodbye when I was 14. I didn’t know if he was dead or alive. I woke up one morning and he was gone. Then 5 years later, he showed back up. When he died, we were estranged.
I’m glad the woman who raised you is gone. I hope that’s ok to say.
Thank you Allison,
I think what you say about narc mothers and their daughters hitting puberty, causing them a threat to their control, is a definite possibility of being correct. It makes sense to me too. My mother was very jealous woman too, any attention my Dad showed me made her lash out at me. So, I can definitely see how I was a threat to her control and her getting fuel from my Dad. To her, I was competition, plain and simple. I can see it now clearly. Xx
Rebecca, that must have been a really awful position to be in. You were in a double bind, and the psychological stress had to be intense.
Hi Allison,
I survived it, I have anxiety issues. I tend to think the worse will happy and then worry about it.
I had an ulcer in second grade, but thankfully I haven’t had another one.
We got through our childhood, but it left scars and I think the scars are what narcs see and are attracted to because we became the adults we needed when we were little and helpless. Narcs are attracted to those who care, those who listen, those who protect, what some people call the light in us. Xx
Hi Allison,
Happen, not happy….why can’t I type? 🙄xx
Leigh and Allison,
I’m sorry you both had to deal with a narc mother, they are the worse because you expect your mother to love you, nurture you, but we got none of them, or very little….more neglect than nurture. Xx We learned to provide for ourselves at such a young age and we survived despite of their neglect and ridicule. We need to recognize that strength and will to live, be proud of what we overcame and survived. Xx
That’s right, Rebecca! We survived neglect and torment. We’re survivors!
Hi, Leigh–
It’s perfectly fine to say that you’re glad she’s gone. Raise a glass and join the club!
The woman who raised me said she killed her husband with a shotgun blast in self defense. Er–in the back. As he was running away. From her. It had happened years before I came along. And that woman did love her guns.
Guns. Lots of guns.
It wasn’t entirely unheard of for the husbands in our area to meet such an untimely end at the hands of wives, but the woman who raised me was notorious for her behaviors. She’d point a gun at almost any problem.
Leigh,
We tough it out and don’t know when to quit, but it’s that determination that makes us get through it again and again…..be it a tough job week, tough family dynamic or a tough situation all around….we keep it moving. Xx
Hey Leigh, my ex mother in law would not let him in the kitchen. She put locks on food and used it. She didn’t educate him 12-15, never allowed friends only her. She told him all the reasons he was not able to do something: drive, work, do guitar, etc… her entire operandus was control. She used guilt heavily. She refused to leave the house, can’t use a cell phone, can’t use a computer, never had any friends, skill, work. Oh she gave up her life for her son! She threatens him with inheritance, yet bribes him to live there, no bills, no cooking, no laundry, even heats his slippers to keep him. She physically attacks him. Verbal threats a norm. He was rendered psychotic this year, and it was the first time he used the term coercive control….no ability to see realty. No mental health support, he was returned to her. It’s disgusting what mothers can do, some wound, others can break completely.
Hi Contagious,
My mother has a bit of a facade so the abuse wasn’t outright and direct. Her manipulations were passive aggressive and concealed. She’s an agoraphobic and never goes outside either. She has severe anxiety and paranoia. I think people give her a pass because they think she suffers from some sort of psychosis, especially since we never suffered from physical abuse from her. I’ve had people say to me that she did the best she could. When someone says that to me, I often say, “No, she didn’t.” I feel no allegiance for her. None. My mother never took care of herself or our home either. I know this is going to sound cold, but she’s pathetic.
Wow Leigh:
My soon to be ex is allegedly an “agoraphobic” who allowed her home to deteriorate to the point of near ruin. She does nothing. Watches tv. Cooks for him. But she does go out once in a rare moon when my ex is not there down the hill to get her booze. I wonder…. And I have asked HG how does a middle lesser narc survive on such little fuel? I guess they can. I also feel she just hates people, always critical ( superior) to them versus agoraphobia. What do you think? Is your mother really an agoraphobic? They sound so much alike … she’s passive aggressive mostly, silent treatments, manipulations… but when she drinks a lot then aggressive unlike your mother. I feel she allows the house to rot as it bothers him as his inheritance and I wonder why he didn’t inherit as from 0-18 his gran was mum. Did gran really do nothing knowing her daughter to protect him but my guess a long line of narcs or his mum lied to him and took his inheritance for herself to control him. I don’t care anymore but I always found her “ agoraphobia” to be strange for a narc! No offense to you but I found his mum to be the Worst most selfish awful mother ! There may not have been serious physical abuse or sexual abuse but she ruined him. Made him dependent on her. Took his life. And he let her too. Sooooo glad to be done and OUT. Well almost legally done. Last step until erased forever.
Hi Contagious,
My mother definitely has agoraphobia. I can count on one hand how many times she left the house. She doesn’t leave her nursing home either. She’s afraid of getting lost. My mother doesn’t even go outside. She wouldn’t even go outside to get the mail. It must’ve threatened her control for some reason. She doesn’t drink. Ever. I’ve never seen her take a drink even once. She enjoys talking to people if you’re painted white. If you’re painted black, she enjoys giving people hell. She’s very active in the nursing home. She just rarely leaves. She’s been there for 15 years and she’s completely fine with it.
Mr. Tudor has said narcs use alcohol and drugs as a fuel substitute. My husband uses Marijuana as a fuel substitute. Maybe your mother in law uses alcohol as a fuel substitute. These mothers really are awful!
This is really interesting Leigh and Contagious. I’d never thought a narc could have agoraphobia, how do they survive without fuel?
I’ve known some narcs who rarely leave the house. They’ve always had an IPPS to run around after them. There is one I don’t fully know enough about, elderly, lives on her own, her son visits a couple of times a month is nice to her but equally torturous to her too, he’s 10000000% narc and hates her.
Leigh, did your mum ever leave the house? How did she survive on so little fuel?
Hi Alexis,
Its nice to see you! I hope you’re well.
My mom didn’t have little fuel. She had boatloads of fuel. She had three children. Plus my father was in and out of her life until he died. She rarely left the house. I think I can remember 5 times when she left the house the whole time I lived there. I moved out when I was 29. When I was 15, I had to have surgery. My father was gone at that point so I had to take a cab to the hospital, by myself.
Eventually, we all started leaving the house. First I left, then she put my older brother in a group residence. He was disabled and his mental state was deteriorating and she no longer wanted to take care of him. Then my father died and then my younger brother moved out. She maybe lasted a month by herself. She called me that she had fallen and needed to go to the hospital. I told her to call 911 and get an ambulance. I met her at the hospital. She never went home again. She went straight to a nursing home. That was 15 years ago. Now she gets lots and lots of fuel so she has no need to bother me any longer. I’m put on the shelf quite often and I’m ok with that!
So longer story, short, she always figured out a way to get her fuel.
Oh my goodness Leigh. You had to go to the hospital by yourself for surgery at 15! Wow that must have been really scary for you.
I’m really well thanks, I hope you are too.
I’m glad you got your mum to go to the hospital by herself too. Although you were very kind to have met her there.
When I visited a relative in hospital recently, there were a number or people with no visitors and it prompts me to wonder whether they are a narc and their family want nothing to do with them or whether their children are.
Thanks for sharing, it’s interesting to read that they can still fuel up without leaving the house. Do you know why as in was there a cause Or trigger of some sort?
Hi Alexis,
Are you asking what triggered my mother’s agoraphobia? I think the event that triggered it was when we moved from the city to the suburbs. But, it threatened her control and in order to nullify the threat, she chose to not leave the house.
I haven’t visited my mother in her nursing home since Covid. If I had to take an educated guess, I would agree with you that the ones that have no visitors are likely narcissists or have narcissists as children. Although I have to say, having a narc daughter, I think if I was in the hospital, she’d want to be there as much as possible. I think if she thought she was losing me, it would be a threat to her control and she’d have to nullify that threat somehow.
Hi Leigh and Allison,
Do you have family members who tell you not to be so hard on your mother because she has issues and no one is perfect? Like shaming you for being upset with your mother? Like they say, she’s your mother, you only have one mother, you should love her and forgive her….like you’re bad for resenting her? Was is that victim shaming, or survivor guilt trip? Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Yes, I’ve had people say to me that I should give my mother a break. Ironically, it wasn’t family members though. Usually when I tell them my story, especially about how she treated my disabled brother, that shuts them up. I have no desire to protect her anymore so I don’t care if people know how she neglected us.
Hi Leigh,
I don’t feel the need to protect my mother’s facade anymore either, haven’t for a while. Xx
Whenever someone says a positive comment about my mother, someone who didn’t really know her, know her, I let it go, no sense in educating them on the truth of her. I’d rather not go into digging it all up and then the person still not get it. It’s not worth reliving it, for the person to still question it. Her facade was believable to some and they don’t want to see the truth, so I don’t even bother. I let it go and nod, when they say, “she was such a trooper with all that was on her plate, with all her bad health, she was a saint.” Xx
Hi Rebecca,
Thankfully since my mother is an agoraphobic, she knows very few people and I don’t have to worry about people saying such things to me. If someone told me she was a saint, I don’t know what I would do.
I do see your point though. There’s no point in rehashing it. Let them think what they want. I do that with my narc husband now. But I’m still with him and I protect him so I don’t look like an idiot for staying with him.
Hi Rebecca,
How long did it take for you to adopt the position of it being pointless to tell others about your mother’s nastiness?
Does it bother you or just wash over and flow away now?
Hi Dani,
It’s not a question of time, Dani, it’s more like the person I’m dealing with in front of me. For example, if it’s someone from her church, I know it’s pointless to explain to him or her that she had a facade and that she wasn’t that frail, sweet person outside of church. It’s pointless because they’re not my friend, not in my life and won’t believe me anyway. Basically a total waste of my time to explain her facade. It’s not from thinking their dimwitted, fair from it. It’s just that I’m at a place now that I don’t need to explain her to them. I know, the people who are close to me, know the truth and what they think doesn’t matter in the long run. Xx
It doesn’t bother me, when it’s someone who isn’t close to me, what they think of my mother. Why I’m careful who gets close to me now. I used to care what my Dad’s sisters thought of my mother. Now, they can think she was a Saint and I was the bad kid. I don’t care now. Now I see their behaviors and it’s why I withdrew from them. HG knows why I withdrew from them and he encouraged me to do so. Toxic family members, I avoid, so doesn’t matter what they think of her, or me. Xx
In short, Dani, it’s a question of WHO has the opinion of my mother and then the WHO, is how I respond to that opinion. For example: If my best friend thought my mother was a Saint, I’d first wonder about her reasoning skills and it would hurt me, her thinking that about my mother. It would hurt and cause me to experience self-doubt and wonder about myself again.
I hope I answered your question, Dani and sorry for the long reply, HG and Dani. Xx
Dani,
Sorry for the typos, they’re and not their, and far and not fair…I get to typing fast and then I don’t proofread it. My error, sorry. Xx
Thank you, Rebecca. That makes sense.
My family sent some random preacher my way to give me a good talking to about honoring my parents, mending fences, etc. Since the woman who raised me was dead, my sisters were pushing me to reunite with my biological mother. Mother was living with one of them and everyone expressed concern that I would regret not building a bridge with her because she was getting up in years and in poor health.
My family is still quite religious, so I think their pressure was a well-intentioned concern for my soul or some such. But my family was a train depot growing up. Remember that video HG put on Instagram depicting the carriages, one leaving as one came in to represent the IPPS experience? That’s how my family was, an endless parade of people moving in and out of my life. The only constant was my abuser, therefore that bond was strong. My biological parents were important to me, but mostly absent, so we were not bound. Everyone else, including my sisters, made little emotional impression on me, so no real bonds there.
I felt my share of guilt about this owing to being an empath. But when my family was putting the pressure on recently I had to be honest with myself and acknowledge that I cared nothing for any of them. Not only did I not like any of them as people, but I felt that sharing a few genes wasn’t enough to make me want to get sucked in and start playing auntie to their spawn. For whatever it’s worth I don’t have the capacity to do family.
HI Allison,
I understand the avoiding family thing, I do that with my narc husband’s family, his narc daughter especially….but. I also have paternal aunts I easily avoid. Life got better when I cut some toxic family out of it, especially the holidays! No drama, so nice. Xx
Hi Allison,
Some of your comments really resonate with me. Even before I found narcsite, just because I shared genes with someone, didn’t mean I created a bond with them. I don’t even know my father’s side of the family. On my mother’s side, I know very few. I often will refer to them as the people I share genes with, not family.
The only 3 exceptions are my daughters and my older brother. I’ve bonded with them and I care deeply for them.
Leigh,
I feel bad for your brother, it was cruel of your mother to dismiss his feelings and ignore him.
My brother was the golden child to my mother. This reminds me of a short conversation my narc husband and I had a few days ago.
He was talking about his late mother and he said to me, “My mother at least loved me, you can’t say that.”
This upset me, so I returned the biting comment with one of my own.
I told him, “At least my Dad loved me and I knew my Dad.”
He said, “Damn, that was mean”
I felt a prick of guilt after my comment and felt worse after his reply, and I did say, “Sorry, that was mean.”
His Dad left before he was born, he didn’t want to be a Dad. His Dad killed himself, when my husband was 6, so you can see why I felt like an a## after saying it.
His comment stung and I stung back. My tongue can be sharp, sarcastic and stinging. My temper doesn’t help matters either. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
This is what pisses me off about narcs. They push our buttons and when we react, we’re the bad guys. He said to you that at least his mother loved him and that you couldn’t say the same. That’s incredibly mean as well. So, its ok for him to be mean to you, but you can’t be mean to him? No, that doesn’t work for me. I know, I know, everyone says you have to be the bigger person. Sometimes I can’t do it though. If someone comes out swinging, you’re damn right I’m coming out swinging too. If he didn’t want to be stung, he shouldn’t have stung first.
Besides, he’s a narcissist and it didn’t really sting him. It was challenge fuel. Sometimes it helps me to think about it like that. It might stop my initial reaction, but it stops me from feeling guilty about it afterwards.
Hi Leigh,
You’re right, he stung first and narcs do live by a double standard, they can do it to you, but you can’t do it to them. I see that with him often. He can call me names, but if I call him names, I’m the one out of line.
That’s an example of how we get into arguments, but we have fewer now because I’m fighting the urge to keep it going. I’ve learned to bite my tongue more and he gets really annoyed, which makes me feel a small victory in lower my reactions to his provocations. Win, win for me. 🙃xx
Hi Leigh,
I asked MLSN about our conversation about his mother, was curious about his view on it and he responded like HG told us, he would. MLSN only saw my comment to him being mean to him, he didn’t see that his comment to me was mean. The double standard they can’t see it. It keeps them the victim in their story. They really are blind to it! The narc vision HG talks about, is really how they see their world. Unbelievable, if I didn’t see how they really can’t see it. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
This is why you shouldn’t feel guilty for saying something back to MLSN. It only eats at us while they’re fine and dandy.
True Leigh,
It rolls right off their backs, while it slaps us in the face. Xx
Hi Allison.
I’m sorry you grew up with a domineering mother who trampled over your rights. I’m very glad you are exercising those boundary muscles now as an adult.
Your description of your mum making you eat Vaseline stood out to me. May I ask what the context was of that?
Hi, annaamel–
Sometimes I refer to her as my mother, but we weren’t blood related. She just occupied that role. The context was her sadistic pleasure in degrading me. Among the many means used to accomplish this she maintained near absolute control over my intake and elimination. One way was by force feeding me Vaseline when I was little as a purgative, in addition to other mechanical and chemical interventions daily.
‘Sometimes I refer to her as my mother, but we weren’t blood related. She just occupied that role.‘
I vaguely recall you stating this somewhere already on the blog.
‘Among the many means used to accomplish this she maintained near absolute control over my intake and elimination. One way was by force feeding me Vaseline when I was little as a purgative, in addition to other mechanical and chemical interventions daily.’
I found out it is used as a laxative. I honestly had no idea. All this is shocking, Allison. Truly.
‘Consequently, I was sick a lot and she denigrated me for that. My stomach was a real battleground.’
I’m sure she would’ve tried hard to make you feel like you were an accomplice.
But she made you sick. She then abused you for getting sick. She abused your digestive system.
Again, I’m sorry this happened to you. I admire that you have come out of it so together and in control.
Thank you, annaamel. I appreciate your support. I have come to realize that I am under my own control.
Hey Allison: I had no idea. Forget anything I wrote about mothers. How appalling! And I am always amazed at how people survive to become wonderful people like you! How do you find the strength to break those chains?
Day by day, and inch by inch. I don’t see myself as wonderful, just determined.
My goodness Allison your mother reminds me of my soon to be ex mother in law. She would throw a fit and engage with n silent treatment if you asked for salt to add to her meal. Did she leave the house? Was every independence by you a threat to her control? Did she try to make you weak, inadequate dependent on her? Bravo girl! You are not! Was she obsessed with you? Did she ingratiate herself into your life? Break every boundary? Did she have friends, relations outside of bio dad? My ex said his mom got upset when he got into records so he felt guilty as a child playing them. She was even jealous of the dog. She is a MLN. But everything you post so reminds me of her. I took her on, she took him only because I wouldn’t take her broken child on. Sad. You escaped. My soon to be ex did not. She is evil. Selfish and abusive. What an adult woman, a mother of all things, can do to a child. I pointed out every single thing that she did wrong. Every single one of them. It won’t change her but it wounded her. Sorry, I am glad I did!!! Awful human being!!! Wild animals make breed better!
Hi, Contagious–
Your mother-in-law sounds dreadful. I know what you mean by saying she was jealous of the dog! My abuser wasn’t my biological mother but she was my guardian, like a wolf guarding the sheep. She knew my father and she despised him. They despised each other. She was a fiend.
Contagious…
You didn’t read the Empath Detector Protocol?
“But my name gives it away too and I totally related to it.” – It really does.
“I did the weaponized test too and got Tower and Sanctuary.” – What do those mean? I don’t know all the weaponized empath terms or particulars about them. So you are weaponized in different ways against different narcs who have been or may enter your life?
“So my Tower is about my ex. I kicked him out 6 years ago.” – The one diagnosed with Antisocial personality disorder?
“Can you enlighten me in how pride is narcissistic?” Pride is a narcissistic trait. You have emotional empathy so your pride functions in a healthy way. Say you take pride in your personal appearance. That helps you when going to court. You show up in pink sparkles like Elle Woods… Your pride in your appearance did not cause you to skip your children’s school programs/events/etc to go to the gym to workout or to put everyone in your house on a radical diet.
“Now without revealing any confidences what troubles you about the Tudor scope?”
Nothing troubles me about Tudor Scope analyses. What troubles me about my ED results? I’m pondering the best way to answer this while obeying agreements. It might be easiest to do this by referencing specific questions. You should be able to access the ED questions through the Knowledge Vault without paying for it a second time. I could reference the question number.
Did you see all the graphics in yesterday’s important announcement video? I think Mr. Tudor is getting quite close to sharing more information about empaths! I’m super excited. Mr. Tudor is the best!
Hi Dani,
I know this comment wasn’t for me but I’m intrigued. You don’t see yourself in your empath detector results?
That’s interesting to me because as soon as I got my results, everything clicked for me.
When you took the EDC you were supposed to answer naturally and not think too much about the question. Empaths are over thinkers. If you thought about it too much it might’ve skewed the results slightly.
Also, a couple of years ago a bunch of us shared our results. When I shared mine, I had thought it was allowed because everyone else was doing it, lol. I just followed the herd. Oopsie!
Hi Leigh,
I think most people do see themselves readily in the results. I don’t know that I fully understand my results. I took the ED for several reasons.
I thought of myself very differently across some aspects. There are multiple reasons why…some may be wishful thinking on my part. Some may have been me misunderstanding the relevant schools/cadres. Some may be the result of cognitive dissonance from others’ statements. Some of that may be their honestly held opinions and some may be their wishes put on me and others just unplanned, subconscious devaluing behavior. The main problems that I want to overcome seemed to be something else, based on my understanding. I wanted to know what HG sees as well. Very few narcissistic psychopaths will provide such a level of insight into their world.
I agree with certain parts. I see them very clearly. I would have been upset if one school/cadre had been missing. I spoke a bit about that one in a response to Contagious (that is in moderation at the time of writing and posting this). I wasn’t surprised by another part school/cadre. I wasn’t pleased…Because i see how frequently I’ve “allowed” this to exploited. I have no doubt that one is true, and generally, I like that part. I don’t like exploitation, but I feel more in control of whether people get to have that now. I’m taking a step back from that one in regards to some. It takes many mental reminders still, literally pausing, and saying “no, you do not have to do that. You’re being used.” Sometimes even reversing an action already taken. It’s doable. I don’t feel great in process…I moved from one negative emotion regarding my actions to another. But that may be just part of what building a boundary entails for a while. It’s gotten better…and there have been results that show there aren’t all narcissists surrounding me…just one or a few lazy, selfish, cheapskates.
Other parts baffle me. Owing to the way I see things…I can’t stop seeing patterns once I find them. I don’t know if Mr. Tudor would want me pointing things out about certain questions or how I see they might affect answers. (I only just got turned right side up and taken down.) I don’t think based on the instructions the taker is supposed to see them or consider them. I just did and across many questions. I took a long time to finish the ED…because I saw more than I should which caused me trouble with following directions.
I think I’m one of the few, the proud, the readers of all the protocols. If HG posted what was written, then he’s given permission. The protocols state something to the effect of…”results will not be disclosed without prior permission in writing from both parties.” Leila Jayne spontaneously offered up the info that she had taken the ED and her results verbally when asked by HG what they were. Doug shared his results in a really fun exchange with HG. A number of people shared results in the audio testimonials and 100k interviews.
That’s where I am at. I look forward to your thoughts.
Permission was agreed prior to broadcast.
I wondered if that was so. Thank you!
Mr. Tudor,
1. What is the relative number eager to share vs those more reluctant to do so?
2. Are there commonalities amongst them or does it mostly just end up being…an even mix of schools that matches with what you see in terms of majority percentages? I.e. more standards share because they are the most numerous…fewest contagions because of their rarity, etc.
3. Are those with certain cadres less likely to share/want to share? I would guess majority martyr least likely to share…majority geyser most likely…
Thank you so much for your time. Much appreciated.
1. I have not kept records.
2. See 1.
3. See 1.
Thank you for answering, sir. Much appreciated.
Hi Dani,
That was my thought process too. If Mr. Tudor posted what I wrote about my results, then he must’ve been ok with it. Especially since I’ve seen him remove pieces of comments because they’ve broken the rules.
My first thought about not fully understanding what your results mean is to start from the beginning again. Reread the articles and listen again to the videos that pertain to your schools and cadres. I think when you come back to these things a second & third time, you see things you didn’t see the first time around. It also starts to make more sense because you have awareness now. You have to remember also too, we are an amalgamation of the different schools and cadres so we might not have all of the aspects of each school or cadre.
Mr. Tudor would’ve also told you what narc is most attracted to you. Read up on that as well. Certain narcs look for certain empaths and traits. Which leads me to the trait detector. Have you done that one yet? Its incredibly helpful as well. It shows what traits will be triggered first. Those are the traits you have to watch out for because they con us into thinking about the narcissist and raise our ET.
I’ll give you a for instance. I’m high in caregiver so my caregiver trait will get triggered and I help the narcissist. Then I feel resentment when they don’t thank me. All the while, I’m thinking about the narcissist. No more. Now I don’t listen to that voice telling me to help so then I don’t feel the resentment either.
That’s good that you weren’t pleased that you saw a piece that allowed you to be exploited. That means you won’t allow it anymore. Awareness is good. Did you hear Mr. Tudor’s video today? He’s going to tell us what we need to hear not what we want to hear.
I think its ok that you saw patterns. It means you were paying attention. Patterns are also there for a reason. I assumed they were there to measure the consistency/inconsistency in our responses.
I hope my thoughts have helped, Dani.
Leigh–
I think annaamel might be right…and Mr. Tudor possibly changed the protocols at some point. And is holding people to the protocols at the time of purchase. He’s magical that way. My initial thought came from the YouTube people talking about results…and HG telling them they ignored protocols.
“Reread the articles and listen again to the videos that pertain to your schools and cadres.” — I have. Many times.
“Which leads me to the trait detector. Have you done that one yet?” — No, I did so poorly (in my opinion) with directions on the EDC that I do not want to repeat the experience at this time. If I have accurately assessed my inadequacies in following directions, what would you conclude about results?
“You have to remember also too, we are an amalgamation of the different schools and cadres so we might not have all of the aspects of each school or cadre.” — I don’t quite share this interpretation. I’m not sure I have the right words at the moment to explain my thoughts, but I will try to figure it out and do so soon.
Anyone I haven’t responded to, I am working on it.
Dani,
“I did so poorly (in my opinion) with directions on the EDC that I do not want to repeat the experience at this time.” – This is self doubt which is actually reminding me that I thought I screwed up the detector as well. I had these competing thoughts in my head. On the one hand, my results really fit me but on the other hand, I thought I didn’t take the test correctly because there’s no way I was an empath. I even thought I tricked the test somehow.
“If I have accurately assessed my inadequacies in following directions, what would you conclude about results?” – Maybe you thought about the questions too much. So what? I’m sure others have too. Empaths by nature over think things. I’m sure Mr. Tudor has took that into account.
“What would you conclude about results?” – I would conclude that you’re an empath and you’re self doubt is being corrupted for some reason. Could the schools and cadres change a little bit? Maybe. But I still see your empathy shining bright.
I know their have been others that have trouble believing their results. I think its quite normal to question it. I think the self doubt dissipates eventually.
Leigh,
I have not figured out what I want to say vs what I want to not say at this point. I’m mulling over many thoughts.
Dani and Leigh,
I hope you don’t mind me adding my thoughts to your discussion? I took the EDC and I felt like Dani did, when it came to the results. I think it was for a mixture of reasons. 1) I wasn’t that familiar, at the time, with the schools and cadres and what they all meant. 2) I was having way too many self doubt issues to understand myself fully 3) I had too many of other people’s opinions of me working on how I saw myself 4) The one school I was shocked to see and groaned at seeing… but, it eventually made sense to me and now I can see me in the results, especially the Geyser. 🙄😄xx
Rebecca,
I thought of you instantly when I read Dani’s comment. I remembered you went through the same thing.
Hey Rebecca: I groaned too at geyser but it was small and as I said, it’s totally me with kids and dogs. Every time my neighborhood children appear, no matter how frazzled or tired or busy ( I rally myself, go deep), I great them like it is so exciting to see them. Like they are Christmas morning. And they respond, making me gifts and handing them over as if precious masterpieces of art, sharing their victories and concerns with trust and beaming. Nothing better than a child’s smile or a puppies gaze! Very over the top I know! I get that from my Dad, anytime I called, he would be OVER joyed to hear from me. It was silly but I know exactly how it made me feel…. So geyser is not so bad in the right moment. It can really be a composition in life like Ode to Joy!
Am I the only one who loved their Geyser? I feel like it’s the one piece that’s about me. It meant that I can actually feel emotions and it’s how I’m able to release those emotions as well. I love it but I also have just the right amount.
Rebecca, thank you.
Why did you groan about geyser?
Dani,
It wasn’t Geyser I groaned about. 🙃xx
Contagious and Dani,
I’m sorry my comment was confusing and I need to clarify it. Xx
I meant there was a school I wasn’t happy to see in my EDC results.
The Geyser Cadre result wasn’t a surprise to me, THAT one I could see earlier on. I’ve been a very emotional person since I can remember….some people have called me overly emotional and sensitive, so Geyser was a given, once I understood what Geyser meant…Sorry for the confusion. Hope that cleared up what I meant. Xx
Leigh,
Yeah, Dani and I had very similiar reactions to the EDC results.
I go back to it, when I feel self doubt creeping in and then I also remind myself what HG said to me and I repeat it in my mind.
I know you commented earlier that narcs are like cockroaches..to me, self doubt is like a cockroach too, it pops up all uninvited…annoying little cockroach. Xx
Hi Leigh,
The Geyser cadre I knew was me and I accepted it to be true. I wasn’t thrilled about it, as I have a hard time reining in my emotions at times….they like to burst out of the stable and run around the field, before I can hold them back.
I used to think my high emotions made me a narc because my emotions are difficult for me to handle sometimes. You know how a narc will burst out in fury? I worried I was like that, but then HG clarified the difference to what I do to what a narc does and I can see the difference now.
The Geyser is very much me. 😄 It might be annoying at times, trying to rein in my emotions, but it is me. Xx
Hi Rebecca,
It was clear when I reread it. Thank you for answering.
You’re welcome, Dani xx
Hi Dani:
My first thought is we aren’t HG. It’s his test and his results. So whatever will be will be. The future is ours to see baby hold on to me. lol My comrades always complained about the bar exam. I could have answered it two ways! But alas, they had to pick one. Now with the bar exam you take prep courses for months to learn how to take the test, and still in California 50% fail the first time. It’s sooo stressful. I took Nevada too. You can’t prepare for an ED but I bet certain narcs have tried and lied and failed. When I took the MMPI among other tests and interviews for child custody… I distinctly recall a question “do you hear voices and follow them “ and I thought ok… God speaks to me, I follow but not really a voice and if I answer “ yes” will I be found schizophrenic or delusional and lose my child ? so I asked the proctor who monitors you. And he said “ just answer the question.” lol
As I stated …look at it from a situational point of view with cadres and especially smaller percents in both. I am a geyser with children and dogs lol. I am a carrier by profession. I am a martyr if I get a fire in my belly. I become a train without wheels furling to my destination. I can’t wait to sue my bank. They broke a deal I made with their then lawyer. I plan to crucify them HG style lol I am a contagion naturally. I thinks it is a strong intuition and that I was born that way. I am a Standard naturally as are all empaths. I couldn’t think of super but for a tiny few situations. And I suppose there are “ preferences “ for us but I have three great loves in my life. Two empaths and a MLN. I married a ASPD. So although I have loved rich powerful men, they were total empaths. I don’t regret marrying my ASPD, he gave me a great maternity and wasn’t a bad father post divorce. He was a cheat and a criminal but I found that out later. I had no heartbreak as I fell out of love with him. And as I said to Niffty, no two contagions are alike. Some see auras, I get dreams, some like the mountains, I like the beach. Our backgrounds vary. I come from a LONG line of empaths that make me look like a sinner versus the saints. My mother side is very normal but higher up, they were extremely involved with the Salvation Army and charity work. My maternal grandfather was a total narc. No need for a on him. Others have backgrounds wildly different but of course we share common traits.
So try a situational approach and look at your role modelers for answers. Say you have a cadre like magnet? Was your mom a magnet even if you don’t believe you are. We are all a product of gene and environment. As HG explains more, it may fall together. Xxx
Contagious-
I will get a better reply soon. I accidentally lost the one I was working on.
Hi contagious.
‘I distinctly recall a question “do you hear voices and follow them “ and I thought ok… God speaks to me, I follow but not really a voice and if I answer “ yes” will I be found schizophrenic or delusional and lose my child ? so I asked the proctor who monitors you. And he said “ just answer the question.” lol’
This story gave me a chuckle.
‘I am a geyser with children and dogs lol.’
I see a lot of Geyser in your posting here, Contagious. A lot.
‘I am a carrier by profession.’
I see some of your carrier but I imagine it’s much more evident off the blog.
‘I am a martyr if I get a fire in my belly’
I see evidence of martyr in some of the stories you tell about your interactions with people, including your ex partners but also houseguests you’ve taken in.
‘I become a train without wheels furling to my destination. I can’t wait to sue my bank. They broke a deal I made with their then lawyer. I plan to crucify them HG style lol’
This, to me, is the Super. Super is assertive and will fight for a reason.
‘I am a contagion naturally. I thinks it is a strong intuition and that I was born that way.’
I understand this is the one that most resonates with you, hence your moniker.
‘I am a Standard naturally as are all empaths.‘
I see a lot of (what I understand as) Standard in your comments on the blog. You’re very accommodating of others and are not easily ruffled. You like to maintain peace and harmony.
Hi Contagious,
I think I covered much I wanted to say here.
https://narcsite.com/2024/09/02/knowing-the-narcissist-the-carrier-empath-9/comment-page-1/#comment-458040
Waiting on HG is really all I can do as far as I know at the moment.
And you’ve mentioned pro bono court cases you took on…I think that is hard core empathy…that’s a great deal of work.
‘I don’t feel great in process…I moved from one negative emotion regarding my actions to another. But that may be just part of what building a boundary entails for a while. It’s gotten better…and there have been results that show there aren’t all narcissists surrounding me’
I think consolidating boundaries is so important, Dani, but it can be very challenging. Boundaries can feel mean and rude and wrong on an instinctive level. I see part of boundary strengthening as learning to still those little internal voices that say a boundary is bad and shouldn’t be in place.
‘Owing to the way I see things…I can’t stop seeing patterns once I find them. ……… I just did and across many questions. I took a long time to finish the ED…because I saw more than I should which caused me trouble with following directions.’
I am a pattern identifier as well, Dani. And I saw patterns in the questions too. Questionnaires designed to pick up aspects of personality will always have patterns, imo, firstly because there are only a smallish group categories the questions are trying to place people in and secondly, it’s a common way surveys and questionnaires build in reliability. Repeating ideas helps catch insincere responses and will also solidify legitimate responses. You seem like a very methodical thinker, Dani, so it’s not surprising you approached your ED so carefully.
‘I think I’m one of the few, the proud, the readers of all the protocols.’
I’m a rule follower as well. I still have my protocol and see myself as having respected its stipulations. If you go further back in the blog postings you’ll see quite a lot of results discussion. I think HG has tightened up results sharing over the last few years, for various reasons.
‘The protocols state something to the effect of…”results will not be disclosed without prior permission in writing from both parties.” ‘
For the record, my ‘22 protocol doesn’t have this particular phrase and I’m pretty sure Contagion did her ED before me. HG may have amended the protocol since. But I see readers as working within and respecting the confines they’ve been given.
Annaamel…
“If you go further back in the blog postings you’ll see quite a lot of results discussion. I think HG has tightened up results sharing over the last few years, for various reasons.” — I think that’s likely true. But I have heard HG a few times on the YouTube calling out those who ignored protocols…so I think it’s a mixed group. HG changing rules…how narcissistic of him. *spoken fondly* I think I purchased mine in 2023. So interesting…didn’t think of rules changing. I just assume if it goes through here…it’s okay.
“Questionnaires designed to pick up aspects of personality will always have patterns, imo, firstly because there are only a smallish group categories the questions…”
That’s part of it. Not all of it.
”You seem like a very methodical thinker, Dani, so it’s not surprising you approached your ED so carefully.” — something like that.
I’m also keenly aware of a variety of differences between me and what others have stated. It’s possible there are more like me and they just aren’t here or don’t comment.
Who knows…my behavior now may be wholly illogical and just proving the results right.
Hey Annameel:
First, how very kind, respectful and intuitive your analysis of me and my ED results. Yes, I didn’t blog write for a long time. Instead, I jumped right in with tests and a consult. I was sooooo excited to meet HG! He did not disappoint. I admit it was to discuss my soon to be ex and my dreams… sigh. My contagion discussion and class was discussed. I didn’t know what that word really meant then after consult YES and his series came after. This was 2018 or 2019 ??? The black cat is out of the bag! ( It’s Halloween!) HG has never said anything to me or others. He posts them. I know he doesn’t post any of my detailed neuroscience stuff ( probably too boring) so I do know he can not post if he wants and did not know I was breaking protocol and I am skilled at confidences and keeping my word. But I will say you are , people in my life see me differently from you. I had a surety bond in house counsel tell my client “ she’s good but you don’t want to get on her bad side.” Not exactly someone seeing an accepting, keep the peace, geyser, right? That’s why I think I act differently in some instances. And how do you describe a contagion neutrally. I think it’s intuition. For me… it explains my lifetime habit of understanding how another feels. And my dreams. No one anywhere, no be ok, no article, no one can explain this nonstop, lucid, head fuck of nightly or almost nightly movies and some I have written about. And regular lucid dreamers are rare. I think it’s connected to my contagion but he’ll if I have any idea why. HG just says coincidence. . And from this intuition …you go geyser with those you care about, maybe super when you want to correct an injustice, maybe carrier for me to do my job, perhaps martyr when you persevere for a person or cause, maybe co-D if you are preserving and supporting a loved one, maybe magnet if you want the attention of an audience, etc… we are all standard, everyone of us. There are no 100%. I think …it’s the term empath – standard.
So I think and it’s just my humble opinion some of our classes and traits are situational. NOW do we pull on our character traits or personality to fit a situation? I think so. If you are in a courtroom, you are hair in a bun, glasses on, calm, cool, logical and evidence based. Geyser would not work. You choose the carrier side of you. I once had an opposing counsel ask me if I ate nails for breakfast. I treat different clients differently. My public works client who has done 400 million in public works is a very hard, gruff man who is fond of me. He is known his industry to be scary. I keep it brief, strong and to the point. My tunnel contractor who is on a 96 million dollar job in SoCal has disabled children, is a very good person, loves dogs and needs a lot of handholding. I can show him another side. It’s all me, I suppose but different aspects of me. I am very calm in dangerous situations. I had a neighbor attacked by a serial rapist, I have been mugged 3 times, I have been in a foreign country and threatened to be raped. I have no problem handling blood and guts. I think that’s contagion. So I don’t see it as masks. I see it as situations. And the question is: do we decide to choose which facet of our personality to use when confronted with a situation? Or does our personality naturally arise in its own? What do you think?
What do you think about my ideas of classes and cadres depending on situations?
I am not asking you to break any rules you want to follow…
“Do you eat nails for breakfast?”
I love it, Contagious! You’re badass!
I feel moved to say what schools and cadres I see signs of in comments you’ve made, Dani. I am not asking you to clarify or deny. I could be way off, but I’m sharing my perspective.
Schools: Standard, Codependent, Super
Cadres: Carrier, Geyser, Martyr
Thank you for sharing that, annaamel. Whatever my results are, I found it interesting to learn about what you thought would be present based on what you’ve seen.
Hello Dani:
I should read it again. So many of us have shared. I thought we shouldn’t reveal the questions or procedures, not the results. Anyway, I wrote down the list not percents. Some I knew were small. I put a list in order. The one I didn’t see myself was super. I recall it was small so I didn’t think about it. I admire it but I just don’t see myself in that light. I kind of got geyser, again small so I brushed it off to certain situations. I always felt children should be greeted as if Christmas morning so I can see where it fits. My heroes are martyrs such as Harriett Tubman, Catrini, MLK, etc… so at first I was thrilled but then confused over HG definition. He said the classic definition and his can and do overlap but? There’s so much more to learn. The contagion fit and was my most plus I consulted with HG and it fit more so I adopted the moniker. The tower is obvious. I don’t have a long history with narcs as IPSS but my current husband was an eye opener. We are getting divorced after a long separation. The sanctuary makes sense for me as I am a carrier cadre almost equal to my martyr. I must not let narcs slip in as I try to help others. And of course HG is right on that warning. As for pride, I always looked at pride as a good thing, but others responded and I now can see it as a narcisstic trait. For example, you can take pride in coming up from nothing and working your way up but that should not diminish your empathy to others who may not have had the breaks along the way or not validate their reality. So I get it now. I didn’t see the announcement so very excited for the one and only HG to educate us more! And dear Dani, reveal or remain silent. That’s up to you and your own Jiminy Cricket! You give us all on the blog ALOT just by being here! X
Contagious–
HG has allowed many people to post ED results without editing, so I would say here…you have permission. HG is in control of the sharing. He has occasionally edited some. Which is interesting… As to the why…when others have been allowed to share more regarding results.
Thank you for your kind words.
Part of my results in no way surprised me. I would have cried if one part had been missing, be that a school or cadre. One of the videos about empaths…it immediately resonated with me…the way Mr. Tudor described it…it just washed over in his warm chocolaty tone (it’s one I repeatedly return to. I find it comforting.)…and thought, that one makes sense…and that one has been what it is to others…helpful to some and frustrating to others…whereas the rest…it took me more time to think about. I saw one other part coming, too…but more with a sort of dread…as I saw how people had exploited me with it. It doesn’t feel good to deal with that. But I know to watch for it with certain people. And that’s good.
But much of it I don’t know if I get it yet. I struggled in some ways with directions and wording, and I would take long breaks and come back and try with instructions again. I don’t know quite how to explain it without an example…and I do not want to quote questions. I would like to explain the way I read the questions every time. I read things carefully…and what Mr. Tudor has done with this test is quite extraordinary… I have not taken another assessment that resembles it in any way. It makes my head spin. I’d love to know more about its first stages and later refinements…what inspired this creation? How much time did it take? I think understanding that process would give insight into the way he thinks. And just as vitally, the way empaths think. There’s knowledge and understanding woven into that test that isn’t anywhere else on narcsite or YouTube so far as I’ve found from HG.
Ohhhh Dani: I so agree. What knowledge would we get if we knew his “set up” for the tests. But while I don’t think he cares so much about us talking about our own schools and cadres, HG has copyright no doubt legally done about the test. HG would not want others to use it as it is his a masterpiece. His “ secret sauce”… and others would steal it like vultures to make $. . Why the protocol. Also, I think he will do more on empaths that will reveal nuances, origination ( my top pick) , behavior patterns, and motives and coping mechanisms. I think he has scratched the surface and popular interest is strong!!! Yes, everyone wants to know why they got engaged with a narc, and understand it. Less so a psychopath ( I lucked out lol). Psychopaths are wildly popular however as rare and in TV and film a lot. Not the boring ones lol. BUT everyone likes to learn about themselves too. It’s lucrative and HG knows this. HG got right into my head once. I literally jumped up from my seat, my heart raced. I had never had anyone understand my experience and mindset like that before. It was more than uncanny. ( when contagion meets darkness). I asked him “ how did you know?” He replied “ because I am the ULTRA.” And yes he is…hold on to your hat! It’s coming! Your questions will be solved.
Hi, Contagious–
“HG would not want others to use it as it is his a masterpiece.”
Also, it’s part of his legacy, and I think he’d never let that get into the wrong hands.
I think one of the reasons HG might control what readers reveal is to protect them and their preferences. Not everyone is comfortable sharing results, which can feel private and personal but even innocent questioning from other readers can feel like pressure to reveal results and can leave them feeling torn between wanting to keep their results private and meeting those requests. HG being in charge of that process takes some pressure off readers.
One thing I have learned however from marrying a narc. I didn’t have prior romantic narcs or anything n my immediate family so I was shellshocked. Look at STABILITY in all their relations. Family ( not always fair but true), friends, work…I don’t plan on getting married again but oh what a learning experience that was. I had never experienced a silent treatment before and assumed he was dead or injured as that made sense. HG really opened my eyes. I could have stayed too long but I always had boundaries which is why he would leave. I don’t know. It’s over. In the past. No regrets BUT I have my eyes wide open now. Anyone who marries a narc will be damned if they do so again. No way! I have HGs contact info as do we all…
Mr. Tudor–
Would you consider sharing (or is there) a story of an interaction of yours with someone who is more carrier vs an analogous situation with someone who is martyr?
I understand that the martyr is “Carrier 2.0” as you say…but where is the off-ramp that the carrier sees that the martyr is blind to?
Thank you so much for your time! Much appreciated.
Hi Dani,
I wonder if it has something to do with the narc trait of selfishness. I’m high in selfishness. If I’m helping someone and it infringes on something I want or need, I can become resentful. That will cause me to want to stop helping. I think the Martyr may be less selfish and doesn’t feel infringed upon as easily.
Leigh,
Are there common wants/needs that trigger your selfishness and resentment?
Do you feel the resentment immediately or is it something felt a few days later (if a task you needed to get done is not done and because you were helping someone)?
You said you “want to stop.” Is it a want you follow through on more often than not?
Hi Dani,
No, there’s no common want or need that triggers it. I just don’t like to be interrupted in general. I can just be doing the laundry and it will upset me that I’ve been interrupted. If I can’t finish my task because I’ve been interrupted, that will definitely add to the resentment. It really depends on the person though. With my mother or husband, the resentment is almost always and immediate. Sometimes I have to let the resentment subside before I even begin to help and that’s only if I even decide to help. Other times I just push through the resentment just to get the task over with. With my narc daughter, I don’t feel resentment and she interrupts me quite often. Maybe it’s the level of empathy I feel for them.
Often with narcs, you have to jump. So if I don’t jump, they often move on and then I don’t have to worry about it. Now that I know about narcissism, I don’t care if it bothers my mom or husband that I didn’t help. With my narc daughter, I’ll usually stop what I’m doing and help her. Her fury still bothers me. It still stings. My mother’s and husband’s fury doesn’t. I don’t care what they say to me.
With empaths and normals, it’s quite different. I can tell them give me 5 minutes and they’re fine with that.
Hi Dani,
I have an example from this morning. I was cleaning and my narc husband asked me if we have any large ziploc bags in the cabinet. It irritated me instantly because his legs are not broken and he’s not blind but he still felt the need to interrupt me. In the past, I might’ve gotten it for him or said, can’t you check for yourself, I’m busy right now. When I would challenge him in that way, he would call me an asshole and tell me that he was just checking with me. This morning I didn’t stop what I was doing. I just said that I wasn’t sure. He then says that he thinks he saw them in there and that he needed one. I said ok. Again, I did nothing. I was focused on my task.
For that defiance, I got a mini silent treatment and he went to his bolthole to use a fuel substitute. (He went outside to the shed and got high.) It’s ok. I got to finish cleaning in peace.
If it was someone else, I probably would’ve stopped what I was doing and grabbed the bags real quick. It would’ve only taken a couple of seconds. But my husband is so needy that anything he asks, I automatically feel resentment.
Thank you for sharing, Leigh.
Does the resentment generated by your husband or mother linger for any length of time?
Hi Dani,
I try to release the resentment as quickly as possible. If I let it linger, it will lead to more negative feelings. I don’t want that to happen. Ideally, removing myself from the situation, is the quickest way for the resentment to dissipate. However, if I can’t remove myself, I remind myself that this is only temporary and this too shall pass. I chant it a couple of times and it helps me refocus. Harboring those negative feelings does more damage to us then it does to them. Knowing that helps me release it as well.
Leigh: “Harboring those negative feelings does more damage to us then it does to them.”
I agree. I don’t always have an easy time letting it go.
Hi Dani,
I know it can be incredibly difficult to let things go. I held onto resentment and anger for years. I want to make it clear that I don’t mean forgiveness when I say it’s important to let go. I don’t forgive my parents. In my opinion, forgiveness means acceptance. I don’t accept what they did to me. But I’ve let it go because holding onto it damages me, not them and it just keeps them in my head. I don’t want them renting space in my head anymore.
Mr. Tudor has a logic bulletin where he talks about the 5 arenas of interaction with a narcissist. One of the arenas is within our own thoughts. Holding onto resentment and anger means we’re still interacting with the narcissist. Listening to that bulletin was an eye opener for me. It helped me to let go.
I can’t remember which bulletin talks about the 5 arenas of interaction. Maybe Mr. Tudor or one of the other bloggers can help with the name.of the bulletin. I think it will he helpful for you to hear it.
I can relate to the resentment. I really hate having my activities or thinking time interrupted. It disorients me. It’s about 50/50 whether I lash out immediately. Thank you for your candor.
That’s exactly it, Allison. It’s disorients me too. I’m not good at multi-tasking. Whenever I try to multi-task, I feel like I miss something. I’d rather finish one task at a time.
Sometimes I still lash out as well. But I’m so much better than I was in the past.
I’m happy to share. Maybe someone sees it and they realize they’re not alone. Plus it helps me to release my own negative feelings.
Hi Dani and Leigh,
Hope you don’t mind me adding to your conversation.
Leigh,
Your example about your husband asking you a question about something he could easily have used his own initiative to answer for himself reminds me very much of my dad’s behaviour.
My dad will ask a question about something that is obvious (or should be to a normal adult); or he will wait to be given something that he could have gotten for himself; or he will expect someone else to initiate an activity when he could have initiated it himself; or he will do the ‘easy’ part of a task after someone else has prepared everything or figured out the most effective way of doing it.
In the past, his lack of initiative and self-serving behaviour was so irritating that it made me unleash some heavy-duty heated fury. Now, it doesn’t get to me as much because I have learned to either accept it if there is no other choice; or ignore it; or distance myself from it.
Now that I have more awareness and have also analysed his actions in more detail, I see them differently. I think it stems from a reticence based on the expectation that he will do something ‘wrong’ and be blamed for ‘doing the wrong thing’. He would rather not do it at all than be criticised or punished for it.
This may or may not sound like your husband. It would be interesting to compare, though.
In the case of my father, I think it’s based on a combination of perfectionism and a form of neurotic anxiety. It’s a case of thinking that if things go pear-shaped, it will be someone else’s fault and someone else will take the fall while he’ll be in the all-clear. It’s like a childish self-defence strategy. In reality, it’s likely that things will not go pear-shaped, and even if they do, who cares? It will be a learning experience.
To me, it’s a strange kind of projection, and also, it ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy. In trying to save himself from blame, he actually induces the other person to become irritated at his lack of initiative and his self-protective nature and he does actually get ‘blame’. In trying to get his own way, he actually creates more inertia for himself.
Hi WN,
To me, these actions are passive aggressive. Instead of being direct and asking me to take on the task, he circles around it. When he asked me if we had large ziploc bags, I was expected to bring them to him. He wasn’t going to look himself. This is how he operates on a daily basis. He often says that he needs to run an errand. But that’s not what he means. He means, I have to run the errand for him. But he’ll never come right out and ask. He waits for me to offer. When things don’t go his way, there’s name calling or sulking. Neither affect me anymore.
I do think that it sounds like there are some similarities between your father and my husband. My husband is a LMR Victim narcissist though. I know my narc husband does these things for fuel, control & residual benefits. Are you starting to question your father? Do you think he acts this way so he can receive fuel & control? I know passive aggressiveness is definitely something an empath may do as well. I’ve been passive aggressive at times too.
Hi Leigh,
Yes, I agree that it’s passive aggressive behaviour. Until now, I have not really thought of my dad’s behaviour in that way.
It’s interesting to me that you have given the behaviour an outright description or label. In comparison, I have analysed the reasons underlying the behaviours without giving them the umbrella term of passive-aggressiveness. I go straight into wanting to know why and how the behaviour forms and manifests. I think that’s a habit of mine – that is, to dig below the surface and get to the nuts and bolts of something.
In my father’s case, the passive-aggressiveness is a self-defence mechanism rather than a need for fuel, control and residual benefits. He masks his true thoughts and emotions. I think he has learned to do that after living with my mother (a narcissist) for many years. There are times his behaviour is narcissistic. For example, he uses pity plays, a facade, and withholds information. At other times, his behaviour is empathic – he shows compassion and wants to help with certain things. He does have a sense of obligation. Also, he has the very clear signs of the Co-Dependent in that he has difficulty saying no and is apt to self-sacrifice.
I agree with you that empaths can also be passive aggressive. I think anyone can be depending on the situation. I can be too. To me, there is a difference between whether passive aggressiveness is used in a deliberate way for gain or whether it’s used in a defensive way to mask true feelings.
Hi WN,
I analyzed my husband’s behaviors too and wanted to dig deeper in order to understand him better. It wasn’t until I found Mr. Tudor that I finally understood what was going on so I stopped analyzing it.
4 years ago there was an incident when he threw something at my head but missed. I said to him, “What the fuck is wrong with you. You just threw that at my head.” He said, “If I was aiming for your head, it would’ve hit your head.” That sealed the deal for me. I knew immediately what I was dealing with and that’s why I no longer have the need to analyze him and why I’m able to label his behaviors.
I have some super in my makeup and it often helps me to draw a line. After that incident, the line was drawn.
I understand the need to wear a mask and hide true feelings. I do that as well. Sometimes it has to be done to protect ourselves. If your mother was similar to my mother or husband, I can understand why your father has difficulty trusting others. I trust very few people as well.
Hi Leigh,
5 arenas of interaction can be found in “How To Handle A Parenal Narcissist”.
I wrote them down and they putted them on my fridge as a daily reminder.
I saw a bit above some thought about the Martyr cadre and potential connection to the narcissistic trait of selfishness. I do have Martyr in my makeup and I feel certain that my mum does to (she’s probablys stronger in martyr than I am). We can both be selfish but more so towards non-narcs and the sacrifices, unfortunately, goes to the black holes that can’t be filled..
At least pre knowledge.
Maybe very strong majority Martyr are different with regard to selfishness?
I hope everything is well with you Leigh. I was thinking about you and Rebecca sometime ago and I wondered whether you had left the Narcissist husband(s). I’m a bit sad that appears to not the case. You are one of the first bloggers I’ve interacted with on this blog and it got to be like 3,5-4 years ago now. Leigh – you can do it! I know you can!
Thinking about your situaition, and correct me if I am wrong somewere. You are the breadwinner and The LMRV doesn’t work and contribute. You own a house you have worked hard for. You are married but there is no prenuptial agreement and therefore everything will be shared 50%/50%. You don’t want to give up half your assets. Your children are adults(?) You are currently saving money. There is one thing I don’t understand. If you are saving money, as long as you remain married aren’t you saving 50% for him?
Do you want to keep the house?
I didn’t want to because of;
1. Everpresence, and 2. Use of delay.
I really hope you make your way out SOON!
Take care dear Leigh.
Thank you, Jasmin! Yes, of course, the parental narcissist! For the life of me I couldn’t remember and then I gave up trying to figure it out.
My narc husband works but he’s never worked for a real company with any real benefits. He’s also never worked full time. He’s done odd jobs where he’s been paid in cash. He works at best 20 to 25 hours a week. We were able to buy the house because he had a financial windfall about 30 years ago. He got paid once a year and used that to pay the mortgage each month. That ran out about 10 years ago. Now he works to pay the mortgage and thats it. I pay everything else.
We don’t have much left on the mortgage and he wants to stop working completely once the mortgage is paid. How does he expect to pay the taxes and the insurance on the house? He doesn’t think about those things.
Originally, I didn’t want the house either. I agree about the ever presence. Plus the air is heavy here. But because of where I live, my house is now worth a lot of money and since 2020, it’s doubled in worth. My retirement savings has not had the same growth. It’s still an option to let him keep the house and I take my savings and be done with it. He’d make out with more but it may still be worth it.
Yes, technically he’s entitled to half the money I’m saving too. But the account isn’t in his name and he has no idea how much is in it. Plus he’s not the sharpest tool in the shed.
I do have a plan in my head. My job is about to end. The hope is that once my job is done, I grab my stuff and run.
Thank you for the clarification. I’ve read that you don’t want to give up on you assets and that your husband is LMRV. These two factors combined with your Carrier part led me to wrongly assume that he didn’t work.
Now I understand the situation better. He does contribute, but only a small part of the total household budget. You are and have been the main provider throughout the years. Since you contributed with more than the fair share, it annoys you that you have to split 50/50. I feel you. At the same time it is what it is.
If you don’t want to lose your assets then why are you considering letting him keep the house (without him having to buy you out)?
From what you’ve described it appears like he cannot afford to do so. You will have legal rights. I encourage you to use them.
Whilst if you stay in the house, there will be ever presence. For him, there will be reminders of you which will cause hoover triggers. That’s another reason not to let him keep the house.
When you say you’ll ‘end work soon’ are you referring to retirement or your preparations before escape? I wish you’re able to implement NC as quickly as possible. You deserve peace for body and mind.
Hi Jasmin,
My company is in the middle of shutting down operations right now. I’m part of that team. Once we officially close, I’ll be out of a job. There’s a piece of me that wants to just run at that point.
As for giving him the house, I wanted to give it to him so that I can keep my retirement account. At one point my retirement account was more substantial than my home. My home’s value has doubled since 2020. The thought process was to let him keep the home and I’d keep my retirement account. As it stands right now, he’s entitled to half of that as well.
You are correct, he wouldn’t be able to afford the house without me. He’d probably sell it. I guess. I actually wouldn’t care what he would do with the house. I struggle more with him taking half my retirement savings. That’s my hard earned money. I had to stop writing for a minute. That causes some resentment in me.
I know it seems like its taking me forever, but I really am working on going no contact. Thank you for your kind words, Jasmin.
Hi Dani and Leigh:
How do you know it’s passive aggressive versus just plain lazy. For example, I have noticed some people sill things get a mop but rather than take the opportunity to mop the whole area, they just mop up the tiny spill. My son is definitely not a narc but his bedroom often looks like a bomb hit it and he said just tell me what you want to do and I will do it, I mean well. I said “ when the trash is full, take it out.” His response “ I push it down all the time.” lol I am the one everyone interrupts and asks where things are, I think that’s because my title is mom. I find the men from older generations gravitate to the woman governs domestic affairs. Today I find young mothers and women still work and still do most of the domestic chores. Most not all. We are amazing creatures 🙂 They say successful people make their beds everyday. BUT how do you know it’s narcissist behavior and passive aggressive as opposed to someone a bit lazy or lazy. I have two lovely friends, one is a scientist turned mother of two severely autistic children she dotes on and one a plastic surgeon who are total slobs. They rely on house cleaners and hate disruption to their mess as “ they know where they put it.” Or an older man conditioned to respect the role and boundaries of women who control the household like my dad. An empath raised by 5 sisters and a stay at home mother. I am totally not criticizing or judging your opinion, not at all, I assume you accumulated lots of evidence. But I agree and hate when someone points out a task to you that they can do themselves. I find it irritating and lazy and let them know it. My son finds that irritating as he tells me he never meant to irritate me. Example: “ mom the puppy pooped on the floor.” My best response: “ well good find, clean it up.”
Hi Contagious,
Once you determine you’re dealing with a narcissist, you can now look at all of there behaviors through the lens of narcissism. Did you see my response to WN about my husband throwing something at my head? That incident happened because I said I wanted the bathroom worked on because it was falling apart. Its not about what someone says. Its how they react to you. My husband reacts by calling names, acting like a bully and he hovers over the line of getting physical.
With the incident that happened when I was cleaning and he asked about the ziploc bags, he saw I was busy, yet he asked anyway. That’s entitlement, that’s a boundary transgression. He could’ve looked himself. He knows where I put them. His needs are more important then mine though.
Why is he passive aggressive? Because he’ll say to me that he needs to go get razors. Then he doesn’t go. He waits for me to go for him. Why can’t he just asked, Do you mind picking up razors for me? He does this with everything. He tells me he has to do something, but never does it. It doesn’t get done, until I do it. He uses passive aggressiveness to control me.
I do agree that everyone and anyone can be passive aggressive and/or lazy. I have one empath daughter and one narc daughter. Both confirmed by HG. My empath daughter doesn’t take care of her room either. Her room looks like a bomb went off. But if I address her, she doesn’t react like there’s a need to control me. Now with my narc daughter, her room is immaculate. Nothing is out of place and there’s a place for everything. This is how she achieves control over her environment. No one is allowed in her room. She does not want outside germs in there and she won’t go in until she showers. If my husband or I need to get in her room for some reason, it doesn’t go well. Its our home and if we need to get in there to fix a light switch or some other reason that concerns the house, she should be fine with that. But she’s not. I often have to tread very lightly and I usually panic. Her fury still gets to me.
When dealing with a narcissist vs an empath or normal, there’s a significant difference. I don’t feel nervous when talking to my empath daughter. I don’t have to watch my words. I don’t have to worry about her reactions.
Hi Contagious,
I forgot one important piece. He didn’t really want to know if we had large ziploc bags, even though that’s what he asked. He wanted me to put the item away. Even though thats not what he asked. The item is still out and he asked me about the ziploc bag nearly two weeks ago. It was never his intention for him to put the item away. He wanted me to stop what I was doing, grab a ziploc bag and put it away. But that’s not what he said. It’s the indirectness that makes it passive aggressiveness. He’s not saying what he really means.
Hi Contagious,
After rereading my comment, I can see how it can come off as emotional. I just want to explain myself a little further. I can’t question my husband’s status anymore. He’s a narcissist. I have to draw that line in the sand. To question it, would be emotional thinking.
But now I realize that you were probably asking in general, how do you tell the difference between just plain lazy and passive aggressiveness. For me, its passive aggressive because of the indirectness and the interruption. I don’t think your son is being indirect. He’s just not doing it. Its the same with my empath daughter, she’s just not doing it.
I also don’t think that someone who is passive aggressive or lazy is necessarily a narcissist either. I’ve seen passive aggressive comments on this blog from empaths. I, myself can be passive aggressive. I’ve also seen empaths that are lazy. I can be lazy and procrastinate as well.
Hi Leigh,
I’m sorry your husband threw something at your head. While it’s a pathetic thing to do, it’s also very physically dangerous. It would have sealed the deal for me as well, in the sense that my tolerance level would have gone way down. It would have made me not want to be around him.
I can see a clear distinction between a relationship with a marriage partner and a relationship with a parent. That’s stating the obvious, however, what I mean is that for me anyway, I can draw a line and distance myself in a relationship with a ‘romantic’ partner much more easily than I can with a parent. This is the case even when the ‘distancing’ happens only in my thoughts and emotions. When it’s a parent, the cognitive dissonance is more prevalent. I know my father well and, while his behaviours can be frustrating and annoying, I still love him and will not disconnect.
I can relate to what you mean about finding HG and finally understanding the behaviours. To an extent, I did that too. It was like something clicked into place when I began reading HG’s books and the information here. I still find myself analysing people’s behaviours, though. Maybe that’s an individual trait.
Like you, I trust very few people. My default stance in ‘real-life’ when with people is that anything and everything they say or do can and will be evaluated and analysed in order to assess trustworthiness, lol. This sounds defensive and paranoid when I actually write it out, however, it’s true. To me, it’s not defensive or paranoid; instead, it’s being observant. I would like to lower this ‘trust’ threshold and learn not to be so absolute about minor things, however, it’s very difficult to change the instinctive ‘trust radar’.
Hi WN,
I don’t think it’s sounds defensive and paranoid. I think it sounds cautious and protective. I agree, it’s difficult to change our instinctive behaviors. We’ve been burned before though and that causes us to be cautious.
Yes, I suppose that incident could’ve been physically dangerous for me. But my husband never fully follows through with physical harm. He just hovers over the line.
Hi Leigh,
It sounds like you know your husband and what he is capable of after living with him for a long time. It’s still not something you should have to tolerate. For your sake, I wish he knew better. I’m happy for you that you have strong boundaries.
Thank you for saying my reactions sound cautious and protective. I am now more self-aware and mindful of my instinctive reactions. This has helped me to be less defensive. It has taken time and practice though, and it’s an ongoing process. Being here on the blog and commenting with everyone here has helped a lot.
Just one example, in this conversation with you, I can see how my habit of needing to analyse something in depth is counterproductive to an extent. On the one hand, it helps in order to fully and accurately understand something. On the other hand, the analysing can lead to constant rumination and a subconscious need to ‘solve’ what I instinctively regard as a ‘problem’.
By commenting here with you, I can see that it helps to learn and understand; give something a label; make a decision about the most effective option for me personally; and then act accordingly. Once you know, it is more effective to stop analysing and stop trying to ‘solve’ anything.
In other words, ‘once you know, you go. You get out and you stay out.’
…and ironically, the more I practice doing this, (i.e. the more I stop ‘analysing’ a situation) the less defensive I feel about it. If you ‘step away’ from the narc’s drama (even if it’s only in your own thoughts), it has less importance.
I need to qualify this, though. It’s easy to say you ‘know’ something. It’s another thing altogether to really understand a situation and be able to control your instinctive reactions. I have found it takes a lot of time, perseverence, learning, and also a willingness to keep forging ahead in order to change instinctive behaviours.
Thank you for your time and patience, Leigh. I appreciate commenting with you very much.
Thank you for your time and patience as well, WN. I’m glad I can help you sort things out. You help me with that as well. I appreciate and enjoy our conversations too.
Thank you, Leigh.
Hi Leigh:
Your response was well thought out. You damn well know the difference between lazy and passive aggressive, a narc and an empath! It helped me because I have an empath son, totally … but his room looks like the bomb hit it too! He never takes out the trash. But if I ask him to do something he jumps up and helps out greatly. Domestic work is just not a priority lol. It just rarely enters his head unless asked:)
Exactly, Contagious! Domestic work is not a priority for my empath daughter either. But when I actually put my foot down, she’ll do it without being nasty.
I spent a hour with my narc daughter yesterday and everything I said and did was wrong. Everything irritated her and their was constant jabbing from her. I had to stop spending time with her. I could no longer bear it. You just feel the difference when you spend time with a narc vs a non narc.
Leigh, I would have trouble keeping my mouth shut…
Large ziploc bags??
a) Whom have you offed? b) Where do you want to ship yourself? c) You’re not that ugly, babe.
Hi Dani:
I have both carrier and martyr. I am not one to put up with abuse, very good at boundaries. But I am one to go the extra length to help someone I feel was unjustly treated and anyone I love. For example my neighbor almost lost her home. She was a grandma who lovingly raised her granddaughter who was friends with my daughter growing up. God bless her, a kind lady. Her nephew tried to steal her inheritance. I got it back.I had to learn probate law. I got a law degree and I have used it to help many without charge if I feel it’s right. Of course this takes time and energy but I feel hey why get the degree if you can’t help those you love or take on a corrupt corporation who thinks they can take advantage of me. I definitely fought like hell for my children years ago ( grown now) as my ex was diagnosed antisocial. He was very rich and he got the top good old boy to represent him. I ended up representing myself. Two years I fought and I got 80% custody. I do put my children first like most mothers but I have often sacrificed my own needs for theirs. No regrets. They turned out better than I dreamed and happy and hardworking and compassionate etc… like most moms a proud one and I see many mothers like me out there. I have deep personal Faith and I put that first too. I kept my child because of it giving up a 250,000 a year partnership with millions to be made to be with my child. No regrets. I do believe that you should not do things for people they should do themselves and you should never make anyone in a romantic relationship an option that doesn’t make you a priority. I have a great treasure trove of long term friends and colleagues. I am a majority contagion but very close a carrier and majority martyr and I think it comes from putting myself on the line if it is for someone I love or an injustice that burns inside me or a matter of Faith. Have I ever been burned? Yes. I had a client who was old and always ill and I carried him to my detriment. I wrote off his bill. I now think he is a con man. But I routinely fire clients who don’t pay now. I have never been sued. Knock on wood. I have taken in people who were in between jobs including my sons brother. What’s funny is how grateful they remained through life. But at the time … one was quite upset when I said times up, go. I would offer my home to anyone I loved if in hardship ( except my ex narc), I booted him out long ago. I don’t think I am selfless at all. I feel I honor my Faith. And even with the “ mistakes” I have no regrets. My moms boyfriend is a narc and extremely wealthy and I did free legal work for HER for him. I don’t know why a martyr but I am the person people turn to when in need to offer help. I have God. When I asked HG what is a martyr, he said basically a doormat. I don’t feel that way. I get happy when a loved one succeeds, not really an envious person, it lifts me up! And it feels good to help others so maybe that’s where I am selfish, not selfless. How nice it is to be the one in position to help, right? But it is who I am. I will go the extra mile to assist if I BELIEVE and if I love them or if I’m feel it is a just cause. Strangers approach me with problems, I help. A neighbor lost her son at 30, I sent cards and gifts for a year and we didn’t even know each other. She said she has kept every card and oddly put them in her fridge to see daily. My message was “ you are not alone, even though we didn’t know her. Again I am far far far from a saint but I try to make a difference in this world where I can. I always embraced and respected and befriended people who worked below me and they remain my friends to this date. You are no one without those who assist you, it is a team. And my staff rewarded me ten fold. When you give, you will receive and when you die hopefully it is ever after. I would be a terrible military general… and a great kindergarten teacher or nurse. lol But lawyer I am. In fact my old boss once said to me “ you aren’t a doctor, these aren’t your patients, this a business, they are your clients. Total narc he was: sexist, rude to staff, no client skill , miserable wife who he cheated on with his secretary, screwed up kids but rich etc.., Martyr I am.
Contagious,
“my old boss once said to me “ you aren’t a doctor, these aren’t your patients, this a business, they are your clients. Total narc he was: sexist, rude to staff, no client skill , miserable wife who he cheated on with his secretary, screwed up kids but rich etc.., Martyr I am.”
1. Was it inherited wealth or being a good lawyer that made him wealthy?
2. Are you a higher percentage contagion (70%+) or more the lower side of majority (which I’m assuming in terms of percentages would be 55%-69%)? (if you don’t mind sharing)
Hi Dani:
My boss/He was both. He came from a rich family which set up his firm in the 1960s and he was a good lawyer. We had mutual respect ONLY because I made him money. He once said I was very smart but I don’t respect someone who mistreats staff bellowing for his secretary as if a slave. He made staff cry. Everyone loved that I stood up to him. The women. All the lawyers were men but me and he was very sexist. He would not look at me at meetings and talk to the men. Sexism does not bother me unless it gets in my way. My ability to work a case or money. No one liked him but his thanks came in the form of a paycheck.
You know I don’t know percents. I lost my results but I did write them down. I was majority contagion. I did have super but it was small. I don’t identify as a super but contagion made sense. My cadres were martyr, carrier, geyser was small. Situational. Carrier and martyr were like 1% apart. I think I am a carrier/martyr… makes sense as I help to the extra mile to help others….with a tiny bit of geyser. ? Wish I was magnet or more super but hey! How about you? What’s your mix? Do you identify with the results? The one that made me jump out of my chair was when the contagion meets darkness. It was if HG was in my head. So eerie.
Hi Contagious–
I don’t have permission to talk about my results as stipulated by HG’s confidentiality agreement regarding the ED. I assume that those who have shared their results obtained permission as they have been quite open about sharing results. (HG has called out those on YouTube during lives who’ve ignored that rule–assuming that they were being honest.)
I think that I can answer: Do I identify with my results?
I’m perplexed by some of it, and other parts were exactly what I predicted. I felt it from when I first saw the videos about the schools and cadres of empaths. My experience in answering the questions…from what I’ve read of others’ experiences…is unusual. I felt like where I was expected to give answers based on actual data points–good data points for me were non-existent. Others were hypotheticals, and I don’t recall feeling as torn on those. I would have to look at the questions again to be sure about that previous statement.
I may add to this later, but I wanted to get this to you early…
My reply did not get posted. ?
Hi Contagious,
WordPress has been wonky lately. I keep getting a “Nonce verification failed” message and then I have to rewrite the whole comment. Are you sure it went through?
Hi Leigh: yes, my response is finally posted. WordPress files out silent treatments and word salad at times lol
LOL! You ain’t lying Contagious! I often think WordPress likes to gaslight us too!
Hi Dani: Ut Oh. I didn’t know we weren’t supposed to share. Oh well the cats out of the bag! Now I am glad I just took notes, less of a precise reveal lol. But my name gives it away too and I totally related to it. I did the weaponized test too and got Tower and Sanctuary. The one that caused me to literally jump out of my seat was when contagion meets darkness. I felt HG entered my brain. I don’t have a family narcs, most are empaths some normals…my dad’s side are near Saints. My maternal grandfather is a narc but I hated him since a small child and avoided him at all times. He treated my beloved grandmother like shit but she adored him anyway. I always wondered how my mother turned out so good. But she had a loving mother. So my Tower is about my ex. I kicked him out 6 years ago. And finally got him to agree to a walk away divorce this year by threatening him as he did deplorable things to try to force me to take him back. Of course I encounter narcs in work, I am a lawyer, but they never bothered me. I plow through them. So my tower has little major attacks unlike Israel, Palestine and Lebanon. Sanctuary is my weakness and as HG pointed out if I try to help too many, a narc might slip in. True. I had a client I assisted who burned me. Total victim narc. Con artist. He is gone. I quit. Contagion and carrier, yup. Got it. Geyser and super were small and I don’t really relate but small percents so situational. Tower and sanctuary, right on. Now the test I took that puzzles me is pride being my strongest narcissistic trait ( before argumentative well yes I am trained to argue). What’s that about? Can you enlighten me in how pride is narcissistic? I like the idea. ??? Maybe that’s my problem… lol . Now without revealing any confidences what troubles you about the Tudor scope?