Revenge
You will never secure revenge over a narcissist unless you understand how the narcissist thinks and behaves.
You will never secure revenge over a narcissist when you are blinded by emotional thinking.
When victims believe they have obtained revenge, they will invariably have fallen onto The Devil´s Pitchfork and failed. Avoid that fate, by reading the work of the expert.
Revenge is a dish best served by HG Tudor.
39 thoughts on “Revenge”
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Your interview with John Cooper was fascinating, so thank you very much for talking to him. I have a few questions on the topic of revenge. Back in July Slate magazine had a whole “Revenge Week” with very interesting personal stories of revenge as well as more scientific articles such as this one https://slate.com/life/2025/07/drug-brain-addiction-revenge-public-health-death.html. It made me think of your penchant for revenge when I first read it, and your interview reminded me to bring it up:
1. Being wronged, contemplating and taking revenge activate brain areas which are also closely associated with drug addiction, such as the dopamine circuit, pleasure and reward systems, and areas associated with craving and habit formation. People can lose control and give in to the urge for revenge in spite of the negative consequences to themselves such as the destruction of families, loss of career or freedom. (Being unable to resist powerful urges despite known negative consequences is one definition of addiction.)
When people act out their revenge, they feel pleasure, but only temporary, afterwards they actually feel worse and at the same time crave more of it. Have you ever experienced anything of the kind, that taking your revenge would only satisfy you for a short time?
2. From the article mentioned above: “Researchers conducting fMRI brain studies have discovered that when you simply imagine forgiving a grievance—without even informing the transgressor—you deactivate your brain’s pain network (the anterior insula)—stopping rather than merely covering up the pain of the grievance. You also shut down the nucleus accumbens and dorsal striatum—the brain’s pleasure and reward circuitry—which stops intrusive revenge desires. Finally, you activate your prefrontal cortex, restoring executive function and self-control so you can make decisions that are in your own self-interest.
In other words, neuroscience shows us that forgiveness is a sort of wonder drug that stops pain, stops revenge craving, restores rational thinking, and helps set you free from the wrongs and traumas of the past.”
I imagine that this is not an idea you would find immediately appealing, but would you be willing to try it as a thought experiment, and if you do, would you tell us if it made any difference to your craving for balancing the books?
1. Revenge is a form of assertion of control, it may draw fuel and a residual benefit. It may also serve to provide stimulation which is transient in nature.
2. No, forgiveness is not especially stimulating. Taking someone at the knees is much more entertaining.
Taking someone at the knees also conforms much better to the standard psychopath cliché.
Pushing them off a cliff works just as well.
Do you carry around a portable cliff just in case you need to push somebody off one?
No, I just let them dig themselves a hole and hey presto a cliff has formed.
That explains it! I’ve been wondering how this https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c2lvq0yk9dko happened.
😂
“Revenge is a form of assertion of control, it may draw fuel and a residual benefit. It may also serve to provide stimulation which is transient in nature.” You know, you could substitute forgiveness for revenge in that sentence. You could assert control by choosing to forgive that person. There could be fuel and residual benefits in forgiving someone, say in terms of business opportunities and networking, not to mention what it would do for your facade. And you create an unspoken debt in the other person. I think it can be stimulating as well, particularly if your opponent was not expecting it; you might get all sorts of interesting reactions. The stimulation would be transient, but the other benefits would last, similarly to the effects of revenge.
I could, but I won´t because it just doesn’t do it for me in the same way.
Understood, HG. But the option is there in case you ever want it. Having a plan B, or C – well, you don’t need me to tell you.
Hi Anna,
I’m wondering if a narcissist could seriously contemplate or envisage forgiveness even if they wanted to. They know what it is, they might even claim to forgive but I think the problem lies with introspection. To genuinely contemplate forgiveness I think requires a form of introspection. Even if partial culpability or accountability for their own actions wasn’t a necessity, I think forgiveness would still require a degree of emotional empathy. Emotional empathy to understand the possible reasons for the alleged transgression, to truly feel the other person’s point of view and see their interpretation of events and so on.
I don’t think the narcissism could facilitate the workings of forgiveness and as such I don’t think there could be any resultant brain activity that might facilitate any brain restructuring or pathway reorientation. Essentially, I imagine the narcissism would stop the process before it even started.
Whilst forgiveness might not be possible, I wonder if an alternative response could be prioritised / dialled up that doesn’t involve revenge? Possibly in the risk reward centres where the brain might be encouraged always to place a heavier risk weighting on revenge so that an alternative manipulation is selected instead. I could see potential to get around the narcissism that way perhaps. “Revenge is always too labour intensive / expensive / risks the facade / risks exposure. Select alternative manipulation. Withdrawal / disengagement selected.” I see something along those lines as working within the narcissism as opposed to against it. For the psychopath though, with fear and empathy being absent and stimulation being a core driver, I think it’s going to be difficult to make a convincing case against revenge if the transgression is perceived as being a significant threat to control or an affront weighty enough / obstructive enough to warrant action.
Brain plasticity is a really interesting area though. Personality is now thought not to be fixed, prediction is key to behaviour, that really is quite interesting to think about. Who knows what else will come to light in the not too distant future?
I really enjoyed reading your comment. I love pondering things like this.
Also I think the narcissist’s other traits like grandiosity and entitlement would come into play, making forgiveness an oxymoron for a narcissist. It’s like trump with Greenland, in his view what he’s doing all makes sense.
I think also if we’re always “below” a narcissist in their mind, especially when painted black, forgiveness is the opposite to how they’d thing about us. Forgiveness requires nuance, seeing the “greys” in life, but narcs think in black and white.
Interesting to think about.
Two,
I agree with this a lot, especially your second paragraph.
I can honestly say that from all the narcs in my life, the only one who even pretended to forgive me was my dad, and that was with a guilt trip. The rest never apologized nor gave me the satisfaction of “I forgive you” and moving on. No, whatever my infraction was was held over my head for the rest of the time I knew them, to this day my mom does it.
I know on this blog there are a variety of opinions about forgiveness in general. I have learned from people and also held to some things I believed previously. As you say, nuance, which a narcissist will not be able to grasp.
It is interesting to think about.
Interesting comment AV. Not that I’m perfect by any means but I have mainly focused on not ever receiving apologies from my mum but it’s a good point about them forgiving us too. I have definitely always got the impression from any interactions with a narc in my life, that withholding that would be their ideal. I’d imagine the only time forgiveness would be “used” is for the prime aims, so not genuine forgiveness.
Oh and a whole years silent treatment from a “friend” for something I hadn’t done… When she lifted the silent treatment, I tried to clarify that I didn’t do the thing she said I had and she shut me down. I think she knew she was wrong about that and the way she treated me for nothing. But, there’s no asking for, or giving of forgiveness in my experience.
Two,
I’m sorry you experienced the silent treatment, they are some of the worst. Your experience with the forgiveness is mine also.
I apologize if I was short in my comment previously, I did not mean to imply you thought you were perfect, that confused me.
Jade,
You and I must’ve had the same best friend, lol!
The exact same thing happened to me. When I confronted her, she just got up and walked out. Believe it or not, I still remained friends with her after that. It wasn’t until I found Mr. Tudor that I realized I needed to cut her off. Now she’s my ex best friend.
I didn’t think you were short, AV. 😊 I often say I’m “not perfect ” to people generally as a caveat in case they misunderstand me and think im pointing the finger at my mum etc without reflecting (I have had that a lot). It’s hard to get the meaning in comments sometimes isn’t it? Sorry if I mistook your comment too re being happy for me. Maybe some wires got mixed up. 🤦♀️ It’s all good. ❤️😘
I’ve just re-read our cinnents5and think I see how I sounded AV. sorry, it really wasn’t anything to do with you, lovely. I have a habit irl of having half a conversation in my head sometimes and thinking people know where I’m coming from. Doh! 🤦♀️
Ugh. I’m sorry you had it too Leigh. Horrible . This girl was not a very close friend but we worked together every Saturday for a year whilst she exacted the silent treatment. When j learnt “everything” I realised I never once told anyone, I guess I realised my mum would also take her side so no point. Arseeholes, aren’t they! 😏
Haha! Two, I get it! No need for an apology. I have complete conversations in my own head! Two sided even! Sometimes I am saying them out loud also, and my kids are like, “What are you talking about?!”. It can be a little embarrassing, but it’s just my absent minded professor coming out, they know about her!
Lol that’s good it’s not just me AV! we’re guaranteed a good conversation that way aren’t we? 🤣 It’s been good to chew the cud about forgiveness too.
Hi Two,
This is going to sound terrible but I was quite alright with the silent treatment, lol. She wanted me to choose her over my daughter and I didn’t. That’s when she stopped talking to me. I knew she was wrong so I didn’t care. I drew a line.
I’m actually sorry that I ever started talking to her again. It was before I knew about narcissism. One of her family members got diagnosed with terminal cancer and I reached out. That’s when she sucked me back in.
Its ok now though. I’ve learned my lesson and that’s why she’s my ex best friend.
Hahaha! Two, yes!! I am my own best sounding board! And I’m always right! 😂🤣
The forgiveness cud was good too, thank you!
Hi Two,
I think the grandiosity likely supports the justification aspect. A kind of righteous vengeance, plus as you say an inability to contemplate that the selected course of action is not commensurate with the perceived transgression. I think revenge is seen as a need rather than a want. There’s a biting need to right the threat to control posed my the malfunctioning appliances.
In some cases both world views might conclude that revenge is justified. In others I think it sits within control and the narcissistic perspective and I don’t see a work around for that, other than in the event where not pursuing revenge actually yields more advantageous results.
Well said TS. I watched an ex friend, fall out with every one of her housemates at uni and exact “revenge” each time for perceived slights such as not spending enough time with her. Turning off all the electricity and gas etc in their shared property even though one housemate had another week living there. I think forgiveness is just not in their DNA unfortunately. Even if one trait could be solved, another would annexe forgiveness. 🤷♀️
There’s obviously a little wiggle room with HG, as he’s explained, to move from benign to malign manipulations if he further recognises where the empath is coming from, but from what I’m gathering that would be about it and extremely rare if any other narcissist could indeed do this alone… 🤔
Apologies
“To move from benign to malign”
That should have been the other way round.
Ps AV I agree re nuance. I used to think in black and white, that the narcissist was always right grrr. We have to be willing to look at the evidence, both ways.
Great point Two, evidence in both directions. I think I was a little rebellious as a child, I often thought my mom was wrong. Haha, still do. This has been interesting to me looking back though, I think our schools and cadres are even present as children, but likely not fully fleshed out. My mother, for all her trying, never broke me, as in my will for something better, and my belief that there was something better than what she offered. I just grew to dislike her, but still did not see that there were bad people in the world, not even her. That was the cognitive dissonance.
If you feel comfortable to say, what kind of work do you do with people that you’re involved in mental health?
Thanks AV, yes evidence in both directions is what I’ve learnt. I think before I came here I realised that, go to the evidence though HG has pushed the logic message which has helped further. I’d always see their view, but not mine. 🤦♀️ Always trying to keep the peace.. doh. I wish I’d been more rebellious lol. My sister was very rebellious and apparently at around 3, told mum “you’re not the boss of me”! 😂You were right in your case too though, weren’t you? 😉 Good for you. I like hearing stories like that. 👏
Yes I agree re schools and cadres. I think I’m very similar and also I think I’m “getting back” to the real me. It’s amazing how we know something’s wrong, even as kids with nothing to compare it to. I haven’t ever really disliked my mum funnily enough, she’s mostly benign and I was still trying to “connect” till my mid forties. I love her but it does help me to chuckle at her shenanigans. She’s very mrs bouquet-ish (UK sitcom called “keeping up appearances”. But yes, I didn’t really understand bad people, till recently though but even that’s subjective I’m learning.
No problem. 😊 I work in higher education, supporting supporting with their mental and / or physical disabilities and or ADHD and autism, alongside their studies. Very rewarding and suits my need for connection and also being hermity as I just work one on one so no team lol, just the students who are mostly fab. It’s a bit like here, working things out, why someone behaves like they do etc. quite a few have narcissistic ensnarements.. often with supervisors or tutors as well as family’s.
Two,
I agree about getting back to the real me.
You’re job sounds very interesting. Thank you for sharing about it.
No problem AV. ☺️
Here’s to “getting back to the real us” 🥂
Two say, “I have a habit irl of having half a conversation in my head sometimes and thinking people know where I’m coming from.”
OMG! I do the same thing! LOL! When someone looks at me with a bewildered look, I’ll usually respond with a joke. I’ll laugh and say, “Sorry. I guess you’re not a mind reader.” Oopsie! 🤷♀️
Haha. I think maybe it’s because we’re always thinking so it feels like we’re having conversations already 😅
Hi Truthseeker,
I think you are right, the narcissism would not allow it. There is just a direct mechanical link from “threat to control” to “reaction to nullify the threat” with very little to no chance of anything being inserted in between, at least in the unaware ones. They can easily claim to have forgiven someone, but we know it would only be what the narcissism tells them to say, not real forgiveness.
When it comes to imagining forgiving someone, it is bound to look like weakness, especially to HG. It probably does not matter that nobody else would ever know about it, he simply will not go there in his mind, even where it is the most efficient option and he would not have to invest any other resources. It is quite tempting to call it chickening out, but that would not be fair. Any hint of weakness is like being stuck on frozen iron to him. It won’t make a difference that the real weakness is this compulsion to avenge transgressions which opens the door to exploitation by those who know about it.
As for an alternative response, the first one that comes to my mind is dismissal. Jettisoning it requires about the same amount of energy, maybe even less than forgiveness, and it is a tried-and-true standard method of the narcissism. It has the same visible effect as forgiveness in many ways.
Forgiveness could be stimulating to a psychopath as a subspecies of revenge, namely if your opponent was not expecting it, if he was counting on revenge. It could make someone very nervous. But of course it would not require real forgiveness, although it would not exclude it either.
Brain plasticity really is astonishing. But real progress will only happen if the subject agrees to cooperate, and ours here is currently quite reluctant. I do not hold out hope for any of the others.
Hi Anna,
Your point about revenge opening the door to exploitation by those who know about it. Good point. I remember HG being asked about the requirement to exact revenge in a recent interview. There is a circumstance where he would change course from selecting revenge and it’s based on the opponent. If the opponent was equally capable, so for example another Greater or another psychopath and the opponent had managed to inflict damage, then it wouldn’t be logical to exact revenge straight away as the opponent would be expecting it. So in those circumstances, withdrawal would come first and this would be reconciled by the knowledge that revenge would be exacted later. So whilst there is an automatic element involved in the need to regain control, there is actually a logical aspect too. There is the ability to wait, plus the ability to select an alternative method of gaining control in the short term.
Obviously this isn’t forgiveness. There is the potential for the opponent to drop off the radar where the aware narcissist is busy with other projects, so potentially there might be an indefinite delay. Anger is difficult to sustain for an extended period so that could also prevent the drive to exact revenge over a period of time. The opponent would be painted black and, given the narcissist is in a period of withdrawal there would be no opportunity for the opponent to move to white. Only the transgression would be remembered so the opponent is frozen black and permanently on the revenge shelf.
I agree dismissal is an obvious alternative and, with increased understanding of empaths there is the potential for the transgression to feel less burning so that there is the possibility of an alternative manipulation. Essentially, the transgression doesn’t meet the revenge threshold. This makes sense because again it sits within the narcissism rather than attempting to override it and I agree also that it’s a less risky method of asserting control.
I think overall it would boil down to factors outside of the narcissist on the one hand, timing, resources, accessibility to and how formidable the opponent, plus the severity of the transgression, then, on the other hand, the response has to work with the narcissism and not against it.
One thing I’m convinced of though, I think once the decision to move to revenge is taken and the wheels are in motion, they won’t stop until they achieve it.
Excellent read Anna and Truthseeker….
But they do seek forgiveness…. At their parole review:)
Haha! Undoubtedly Contagious.
True, Contagious 😄