When Narcissists Collide – Part One


Many people are curious to know what happens when there is some narc on narc action? Do they recognise one another? Do they seek one another out? How do they react around one another? Do they gang up and is there a pack mentality? Can narcissists work together? Can two narcissists have a successful romantic relationship?

As you know, I categorise our kind into cadres and schools of narcissist. The latter is linked to awareness, ability and cognitive function and therefore this is what is relevant when considering whether our kind recognise one another. Addressing that question first is straight forward. The Lesser and Mid-Range Narcissists do not know what they are and therefore they are unable to recognise their own kind. The Greater Narcissist, a rare beast, is aware of what he is but usually will not admit it (unless he sees some gain to be achieved from doing so). He is however able to recognise his own kind in terms of all three of the schools. With this platform of awareness and recognition, what transpires when narcissists collide? Let us begin with the Lesser and the Lesser.

          Two Lesser Narcissists can readily become entangled as a consequence of being related. The existence of a familial connection means that there is no need for an actual seduction between the two Lesser Narcissists. If for instance the two Lesser Narcissists are two brothers then whenever they interact they will seek to draw fuel from the other. This will manifest as seeking to outdo one another or demand attention from one another. For instance, a Lesser Victim Narcissist would want his brother to help him get down some stairs. The brother Lesser Somatic may agree to assist in the expectation of receiving positive fuel from the LVN’s appreciation and thanks. This is less likely to be forthcoming from the LVN and this failure to be appreciative will result in the brother LSN mocking his brother for his lack of mobility, his poor physical prowess as a consequence of the LSN having his fury ignited by the criticism which arises because the LVN did not express sufficient thanks and appreciation for the LSN helping him. Alternatively, the LVN demands the assistance of his more agile brother to help him down some stairs, but the LSN sees no reason to help. He is no carer and therefore refuses. This failure to assist is a criticism to the LVN, his fury is ignited and he will lash out at the LSN sibling through name-calling, telling him he should spend less time in the gym and more time helping his brother out because he needs the help and hell he is entitled to it.

          Two Lesser siblings will actually provide one another with fuel because they will erupt in rage with one another. The lack of consideration that they will have for one another (or where they feign it in order to try to gain an advantage) will result in the two railing against one another on a repeated basis. They will trade bad-tempered insults and physically fight, each gaining fuel from the other’s rage until either sated they part or they are parted by others. Unable to recognise that they are dealing with one of their own kind and because they will treat one another as Non-Intimate Secondary Sources they will keep coming together to use one another for fuel, clash, sparks will fly and then they will separate. The intermittent nature of their interaction, since they use one another as a NISS means that their relationship will continue for a long time without discard and will be one marked by turbulence. Outsiders, unaware of what they are, will regard two Lesser siblings as competitive, argumentative and repeatedly at loggerheads. They will covet one another’s possessions, delight in trying to engage in an affair with their sister-in-law or the girlfriend of their sibling. They will seek to outdo one another, aligned against one another because of what they are but drawn to one another through the familial bond and the fact they are able to gain short intense bursts of fuel from one another.

          What about two Lessers who find themselves coming together in a social sense? The initial seduction between the two will be effective since neither is seeking to make the other a primary source and therefore the usual instinctive checks for empathy etc will be less rigorous because of this and also because the individuals concerned are Lesser Narcissists. It is extremely rare for two Lessers to become friends in isolation. Instead they are brought together through the ‘glue’ of other non-narcissists. Thus, an empathic individual may have been ensnared by Lesser Narcissist A through say a football team and also through Lesser Narcissist B through being neighbours and this empathic person may well bring the two Lessers together as part of a wider social circle. Thus, it is conceivable that they can become friends, most likely of the outer circle variety and are thus Non Intimate Secondary Sources.

 Similar to the situation of a familial Lesser Narcissists, the two social Lesser Narcissists will bump up against one another, trying to outdo one another, clashing, arguing and seeking to draw fuel. Their behaviours will cause the ignition of fury in the other resulting in the provision of fuel and again this will be in short bursts before their need for fuel is sated and they back off. Their interactions will be intermittent and it will usually be necessary for the interactions to take place against the matrix of other non-narcissists being in attendance.

          The first Lesser will seek to gain the approval of the social group. The second will resent this and lash out at the first Lesser and thus the arguing will commence. Those within the group will regard the two as just having a ‘personality clash’ not truly understanding the dynamic and will spend their time trying to keep the peace and keep the two from attacking one another both verbally and physically. They will rut with one another as they seek to establish primacy within the group and will always keep going and going until others intervene. Once this happens, they will break off and not bother with one another until the next occasion where they are brought  together. The two Lesser Narcissists will not spend time with one another and nobody else in attendance. The lack of a familial bond means that they would just go at one another until one knocked the other out, thus there is little incentive for the two to socialise in isolation. Instead, the social Lesser Narcissists are always brought together in a wider group, where they will compete with one another against the backdrop of onlookers.

          In a work situation, the two Lesser Narcissists are brought together because of the connection of employment. There is therefore no seduction between them but their link is already established. They will compete, not co-operate with one another, look to do the other down and use third parties to try to elevate themselves against this person who will be identified as a troublemaker and a competitor straight away. Two Lesser Narcissists who are forced to work together will become a headache for any HR department. Unwilling to compromise, always blaming one another, shirking responsibility, looking to draw a reaction from each other, they are actually unlikely to get any work done but instead spend their time trying to do down the other. They would not be focussed on trying to outdo one another, after all they are Lesser, but instead, they would rather try and do the other down, which will therefore mean that if the competitor is beneath them they must, by default, be above them. It is a tumultuous relationship of insults, accusations and even violence towards one another which will either lead to the pair being split up so there is no interaction or both being dismissed.

          What of two Lessers interacting as tertiary sources, say one is a customer in a restaurant and the other is a waiter? They may, as strangers, get away with a brief dollop of positive fuel for one another. The waiter is pleasant and the customer thanks him. If the interaction is brief they can both get away with this small amount of positive fuel. If the interaction becomes longer there is an increased risk of them igniting one another’s fury. The customer Lesser perceives a criticism through slow service and insults the waiter. He reacts to this and throws a drink over the customer. Both gain an instant hit of fuel and then the interaction is over, again most likely through the intervention of third parties. The two Lessers, even as tertiary sources, cannot exist alongside one another for long before one tries to draw fuel from the other. The low control threshold of the Lesser means that any interaction with another Lesser, either family, socially, work wise or interacting as strangers will result in a flare-up between the two.

          Finally, what about two Lessers coming together in the context of an intimate relationship? Can two Lessers have one another as intimate partner primary sources? There is a risk of them trying to seduce one another because of their inability to recognise one another and their lower cognitive function, meaning they may not pick up as readily on the lack of empathic traits. The seduction may commence but then not be concluded as both instinctively find that the other is not providing the fuel that they will need and therefore the seduction is broken off. They have enough instinct to know that the person they have started to seduce will not have what is required and therefore they decide not to proceed with the seduction.

          There may however be occasions where two Lessers become locked together in a romantic relationship and seek to make the other an IPPS. This is unusual but can happen because of the following:-


1.      Both have suffered escapes from empathic IPPSs and therefore have been plunged into Chaos Mode. With no pending IPPS in play, they are desperate to find one and thus inadvertently hook up with one another because of their desperate need for fuel. Their weakened state and desperation will cause them to be far less instinctively choosy; and/or

2.      They feign the appearance of empathic traits in order to trap the target and owing to the lower cognitive function (and especially if there is no other primary source fuel provision to hand) they fail to detect that this is false and are thus initially conned.

Where two Lessers “fall” for one another in such circumstances the nature of the relationship will be turbulent and short-lived. Initially, continuing the seduction,they will provide limited positive fuel to one another. This is because given their lesser energy levels, they will be focused on keeping the beast within under control rather than laying on the charm and magnetism. Accordingly, there is not so much a Golden Period but rather a Bronze Period. This poor positive fuel provision will make both Lessers restless, irritable and struggling to keep the beast under control. They may be pleasant to the other in order to try to draw positive fuel but when it is not forthcoming, because of course they are dealing with their own kind who EXPECTS to receive the compliments and sees no reason to return them and their low control threshold means that the lack of decent fuel will bring about devaluation very quickly.

          Accordingly, the Bronze Period between two Lessers who have appointed one another as an IPPS will be short-lived and will plummet towards devaluation. Both will lash out at the other and this is when some decent fuel will be forthcoming as they erupt in a fury with another. Unfortunately for them the ignition of the fury means that they need fuel to replace that used up by the fury and therefore there will be an explosive eruption between the two and then they will be forced to withdraw. They will seek fuel elsewhere and once sated return to one another only for the next explosion to occur. So long as the Lessers can draw fuel from other sources and keep erupting with another, a turbulent and vitriolic period of devaluation will occur and will continue until one or both find a far more viable fuel source.

          Let us say that Lesser A, finding the fuel from Lesser B to be highly unsatisfactory, finds an empathic secondary source and commences an affair. The fuel is far superior to that being provided by Lesser B. Lesser A moves to promote the empathic secondary source to become an IPPS. Lesser A has found the viable fuel source and thus will discard Lesser B. Thereafter, Lesser A will focus on the new IPPS and have no regard for Lesser B. Lesser B perceives the loss of his IPPS as a criticism, his fury is ignited and he will apply an Initial Grand Hoover to try to win back Lesser A. This will fail. Lesser A will resist the hoover because of what he is and also because he will infatuated with the new primary source. Lesser B may well lash out at Lesser A through this ignited fury but will be forced quickly to find an alternative primary source. Once secured, Lesser B having also found a fresh empathic primary source will focus on her. Accordingly, Lessers A and B will have no regard for one another and will not hoover, even when they devalue their new-found empathic primary sources because the Hoover Execution Criteria bar will be raised high because of the poor fuel provision they experienced.

          Accordingly, in the romantic sense the collision of two Lessers is rare and if it does happen the relationship will be chaotic, brutal and moreover short-lived with the two unlikely to cross paths purposefully again thereafter.

74 thoughts on “When Narcissists Collide – Part One

  1. Roxana says:

    What about two Greatest colliding? This is something I would be thrilled to find about, since it’s what I am going through right now. You’re insight would be much appreciated! (TBH, the professionals are still debating if I am a super empath in a supernova mood or a greatest, but “he” is definitely a greatest. 🙂

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It will follow in due course.

      1. Roxana says:

        Is there a way I can email you?

  2. staceyheath says:

    Okay what happens when a lesser gets pregnant and the second lesser really didn’t want the baby. Do they stay together for the kids sake?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Highly unlikely.

  3. DFA says:

    HG if I am wrong I have to wait till a new one comes out, yet if I am right what do I get?
    Hmmm never mind that thought doesn’t sit well with me.

    I would go with if you were here in America I would say secret service so the equivalent there in the U.K. To this

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Well there are others on the horizon. If you are right you gain satisfaction.

      1. Darkness Falls Again says:

        Satisfaction in what being right?

        1. HG Tudor says:


          1. Darkness Falls Again says:

            lol satisfaction for me would come in a different way HG, yet I shall guess
            Hmmm are you part of Parliament? I mean really power, can oversee many things, depending on what kind of job dangerous. Makes sense lol
            Sorry I can see you running things in a big way

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I am indirectly linked to Parliament.

          3. Darkness Falls Again says:

            Hmmm I may just have a reason to speak with some family members now 😉
            Yet I think I will enjoy my drugged induced (cold medicine) imagination for awhile. You have just turn getting sick into an enjoyable thing.

          4. Sniglet says:

            If you are indirectly linked to Parliament then you are in or close to the vipers’ nest of narcissists. A dog eat dog world. Each working there would be trying to outdo each other or brown nose everyone higher up until they make it to the top. Then their true colors will shine. To work in that environment you’d have to be a medium and above narc. Of course old money helps to sustain a low level narc in higher position than the usual common man.

      2. ava101 says:

        Considering that the UK is a nuclear power I have the worst thoughts right now.

  4. ava101 says:

    What is the question??

  5. DFA says:

    Lol got me there

    1. DFA says:

      Have you written any other books other then these on Narcissitic personalities?
      So it was two questions I needed to ask first

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I have written other work outside of my work on narcissism but they are unpublished.

  6. DFA says:

    Can I ask one question first?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You just did!

  7. DFA says:

    HG can I guess at what your profession is?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      By all means.

      1. ava101 says:

        Yay, a new game!

      2. ava101 says:

        There was a German TV show in the 70ies, where people had to guess ones occupation. Whoever was wrong had to put 1 Mark into a piggy bank.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Good idea. If you are wrong you have to buy one of my books!

      3. ava101 says:

        Haha I bought “Revenge” last night, so I got one free. 😉
        What is your degree in / what did you study?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you for buying Revenge, I hope you find it insightful.

      4. ava101 says:

        You’re welcome, always happy to promote your satisfaction.
        It’s very interesting so far, and wondered if success wouldn’t be kind of like psychological murder.
        Also wondered how to to that when he’s in another country. But I’m sure you’ll to get.


  8. OakorWillow says:

    Why the hell do I have to be married to a lesser? FML!!!

    1. ava101 says:

      *lol* You wish for a higher??

  9. Overthinker says:

    Thank you Mr Tudor (Predictive Text changed to Tutor) … I shall read the article this evening … I have a feeling will generate more questions…. Thank you again…

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  10. ava101 says:

    What I would really love to know is if you were someone I would naturally meet somewhere and engage with in real life …

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You would Ava and you would be charmed, it is how I operate. You are safe here though.

      1. ava101 says:

        I know. 🙂

  11. ava101 says:

    I am sure it is. So please, master, do enlighten us!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not just yet, it has to remain confidential for now.

      1. ava101 says:

        Without telling us your profession. 🙂 More like: the machinations of the gerater narcissist in professional life.
        I have been guessing though.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Feel free to guess away, it always interests me to know what people think.

      2. ava101 says:

        You won’t tell if I’m right anyways. 🙂

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Try me.

      3. ava101 says:

        But I haven’t read everything about you yet and not sure which remarks weren’t meant completely serious.
        Also haven’t understood yet if you had been in professional sports.

        Well. … I thought you might be
        – legal advisor in / for a big company
        – district attorney (is that a British term?)
        – University lecturer / don
        – in Marketing (hm… no, I think not) or media??
        – Kindergarden teacher ;P
        – actually, I’m not sure. ;D

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No none of those.

      4. ava101 says:

        You have my e-mail-address if you want to keep it confidential. 😉

      5. ava101 says:


  12. ava101 says:

    Off-topic if I may: haha have you watched the new The Apprentice (Celebrity, US, not dead boring Apprentice UK, sorry) episodes? Mark Burnett sure loves his narcissist-like (not saying they really are) presenters: Arnold Schwarzenegger, saying “Don’t call my Arnold. Call me “The Governor”. *rofl* … And even dared to treat my Goddess Tyra Banks as inferior to him. *grrrrr*

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I haven’t Ava101, it is not a programme that interests me (either UK or US versions). I can go into the office to see similar behaviours!

      1. ava101 says:

        That’s why I love being self-employed … I used to work for a well-known teleshopping company, and the man ager and vice-manager in my devision had fights just like you described (most accurate, as always). Would love to read more about your professional life, though.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I am sure you would ava101 it is very interesting.

  13. Richard says:

    Loving your blog HG, have followed you from one.

    I had a fling with a mid range somatic female narcissist two years ago. She was married and I was her dirty little secret.
    She wanted to branch swing to me and was lining me up to be her next Primary.
    The games she played at times screwed with my mind and i got burnt (rightfully so!!). Love bombing was soooooo intense.

    Took two years of push pull to get rid of her, they don’t want to let you go do they!!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Richard, thank you for reading and I am pleased you enjoy the blog. No, we do not want to let you go because in our eyes you belong to us.

  14. Overthinker says:

    Can an Empath after involvement with a Narc become an Narc herself …. I am questioning whether I am a Narc also … I have been to twisted around and things are my fault from him … I have massive rage and stood up to him now silenced out and blocked … So I am raging and overthinking… How dare you do that to me and how dare you not want me after everything I have done for you … Thank you

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Overthinker, no you cannot. Your reaction is entirely consistent with somebody who has been mis-treated by us. Your reaction is either

      1. That if a super empath – see the article The Empathic Supernova;
      2. The consequences of PTSD because of what you have been put through;
      3. The erosion of empathic traits allowing narcissistic ones to be more prominent – this is something I shall be writing about in greater detail in due course.

      Some people call it narcissistic fleas. You don’t catch narcissism from us, nor do you become a narcissist as an adult, instead the behaviours are a reaction to what we have done and may result in existing narcissistic traits (but you are not a narcissist) coming to the fore.

      1. ava101 says:

        *hahaha* very good, HG, narcissisic fleas. Parasites all over.

        4. it can be (in addition) learned behavior if you have a corresponding family background, which is then triggered.

        Nr. 3 HG: I feel both. I want to strengthen my self-love but also I’ve learned to value my empathic side through you, also learned that my emotions have been correct inspite the over-exagerrating remarks of my parents.


    2. geezelouise says:

      I am an empath with some childhood trauma issues. I had a very similar situation. So many lies, episodes of rage, name calling, gaslighting, silent treatment, smear campaign, etc…
      I am a fixer. I tried to reason with him, explain how what he did was affecting me. And told him what may help the situation (in a constructive way). After nothing at all changed, I was more agressive with my approach in telling him that this is not okay. I started to shut down fights because he said he couldn’t take it any more (I believe it was that he could see that I was on to him and started looking for another primary source. I never, ever felt heard or understood by this person. It had become painfully clear that I was used was not in love with him but the facade that I had first met. I started to get angry back. Not only was my head spinning trying to figure out what the heck was going on, but I noticed something. I had changed. The empathetic person I used to know was lost. Something happened to him and he came crying (not crying, more like the sniffles. Lol). He wanted compassion from me and at the time it turned out I didn’t really have any left. For him at least. And yes, it for a second made he think I was a narc. He even said “you don’t give a s$&t about me”. I think my response was, “you really expect me to give a s@&t about you after everything, well I don’t, congratulations you’ve turned me into you.”

      He didn’t turn me into him. I finally stopped giving the supply when I realized that I was changing and acting in ways that I really didn’t like. Thing is he was the common denominator. I didn’t have this issue with anyone else, just him.
      My psyche felt fractured, I was suicidal, and knew I had to get him out of my life before it was too late.

      I didn’t loose my empathy, but refuse to give sympathy to someone who hurt me so badly and does not care. I do accept responsibility for certain things in the relationship. It’s not all him (I stayed, minimized, rationalized, bargained, got angry when I realized I was putting in this effort for someone that does not care for me in the least, and for so long gave so much of my power away.

      Today I choose not to give my power away. I agree with hg. A highly sensitive person (especially with unhealed stuff from the past) is bound to suffer with ptsd and be reactive when certain things trigger them. Been there, doing that. Getting better. So close, no cigar. He did not, nor will he destroy me. Pushing through, on to bigger and better.

  15. sr201 says:

    Great work!! Really helps clarify many things. Lol, yep me too ava101, HG you’ve helped me identify strong family narcissistic background. It answers soooo many questions, and has actually helped me heal from much childhood trauma due to narcissism that I didn’t even have a clue about until I married one. Lots of healing still needed, but HG I know it’s only fuel, but your blog has been a blessing. Can’t wait for part 2. ☺

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you SR201, Part Two will be available in a few hours.

    2. ava101 says:

      Are YOU my soul mate (sister), sr201? 😉 Seriously: same here.

      1. Love says:

        Lol you both have the same naming convention. 😉

  16. DFA says:

    Explains many things I have observed

  17. Ginger says:

    Very interesting indeed!
    I can’t wait to read about the mid range narcissists coming together!
    Especially the familial relationships..
    My in laws are all a wreck _mix of MRN (some more savvy than others) Lessers..psychopaths, and much more…wish it was possible to say “look! You’re a mess! And stop ruining innocent lives..”
    HG do you have an understanding of Other Personality disorders..like Borderline? Or? Given they may make great appliances? And can you detect them too?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Ginger, I have engaged with borderlines for the purposes of fuel yes and I understand something about them but I know my own kind far, far better.

  18. ava101 says:

    Like my sisters. And people wonder why I won’t have my family around me …

  19. Cara says:

    And I recognize that I’m a narcissist. I also recognize that both my younger sisters are narcissists as well (call our narcissistic personality traits a “gift” from Mommy Dearest), although we all three (three sisters) exhibit narcissistic behavior to varying degrees. I don’t know if my middle sister is aware that she has such traits, it’s not something I discuss with her. My youngest sister recognizes the qualities of “selfish”, “manipulative”, & “dishonest” within me (all hallmarks of the narcissist), but is unable to see the same traits within herself…or perhaps is unwilling to admit she possesses such traits.

  20. Reblogged this on NarcMagNet69x96.

  21. Coom on write more, write faster!!!

    Which reminds me I still need to message you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes you do.

      1. I’m on to it HG

  22. Love says:

    Thank you Thank you thank you! I’ve been waiting so long for this. Brilliant! Greatly looking forward to the next section.
    I have 2 girlfriends: one a lesser, the other a mid. They do not socially interact but know of each other. They both are on dating sites and have even dated the same men. Lesser is very envious of Mid. Yet, Lesser also wants to be like Mid. She hates her but at the same time looks up to her. Mid could care less about Lesser. Mid has much success with men. Lesser is continuously a victim of hit and runs. As you state above, she meets narc men who enjoy her for a short time but move on quickly to greener fuel pastures. Mid chooses her men wisely, and never truly lets go of anyone. Lesser has attempted several times to pick up Mid’s discarded scraps… Yet has been unsuccessful. She lacks the charm and intelligence of Mid.

  23. Lizz sieling says:

    Amazing once again hg!! This article describes 2 lesser narcissists i know perfectly. They always go back to each other when they run out of fuel from an ipps. Keep up the great work

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Lizz.

  24. Bruised says:

    wow. .. speechless! You really know everything Sir!

Vent Your Spleen! (Please see the Rules in Formal Info)

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.

Previous article

Achieving NoFuC

Next article

I Want