The Final Discard

THE FINAL

“He told me he never wanted to see me again so long as he was alive. That is it. This time it  really is over.”

“She told me I was useless, pathetic, that she hated me and she would call the police if I came near her again. I don’t understand what is going on, but all I know that is the absolute end.”

“He made it clear that there is no future for us, that he cannot stand the sight of me and that he wants me packed and gone by morning. This is it. It really is it, this time.”

“She has taken everything and left me a letter explaining that she cannot do it any more, that she needs to find herself, whatever that means and there is no future for us together. I knew this was coming, I could tell, I have been given the final discard.”

The final discard. The curtain of conclusion. The guillotine of totality.

It really is over.

So often victims of our kind distinguish between being discarded and then there is (await dramatic music) the FINAL discard. There is being kicked to one side by us but the prospect of being hoovered back in and then there is the final discard whereby you have been removed from your association with us and it is the end of the entanglement and there will be no more engagement between you and I.

Victims often consider declaring that this time is the final discard and they do this for two reasons, which, interestingly are conflicting.

The first reason is that they desperately hope that it is not the final discard at all and that when they explain to whoever is listening to them recount the minute my minute dynamic of this final discard, that the person will tell them that it is not. The victim is hoping that the listener will provide some cogent reason, some piece of evidence which will explain that it cannot be the final discard and thus fulfil that which blazes at the heart of all empathic individuals; hope.

The victim does not want the entanglement to end. He or she cannot bear the pain. They do not want this to be their exile, their abandonment or their expulsion. They want to remain with us but fear that this time it really is the end and they are crying out for somebody to tell them that it is not, just so they can cling to a hope.

The second reason is because the victim does indeed hope that it is over so they are freed from our monstrous clutches. They want that to be the end. The victim, either at the time or sometime after this final discard, having gained some knowledge and understanding, ascertains that what they did caused significant wounding (although often they are wrong about that) and that this wounding was to such a degree that it sent us packing with our tail between our legs, skulking away, broken, humiliated and shame pouring from us, so that we will never, ever dare risk returning to you. The victim concludes that what they did has sent us packing and we will not darken their doorstep or inbox again. It is an understandable conclusion to reach.

There is no such thing as a final discard.

There is no such thing as a discard.

There is only ever dis-engagement.

This is because in our minds you belong to us and the Narcissistic Relationship lasts until you die or we die. That is only when finality applies to our connection. You are our property. You are our fuelling appliance. You are good and then you are bad. You are of use and then you are of no use. And then you are of use again.

We have invested time and energy in you. We want to reap the benefits time and time again.

If you are our primary source, we will dis-engage with you. We paint you black and do not want anything more to do with you at that time. It may appear as if we have ‘discarded’ you, but it is merely the termination of the Formal Relationship. You are not our girlfriend, partner, wife any longer. The Narcissistic Relationship persists. We do not draw fuel from you, we do not take your character traits, we do not take your residual benefits. You are deleted as we enter a golden period with a new primary source.

If you are an intimate secondary source, we will dis-engage with you. You are placed on the shelf, back in the cupboard, ready for the next time we want to engage with you. You are not deleted. You are just not required. For now. There is no discard. You usually are not devalued. If you are, then you have offended us and there will be a dis-engagement and a termination of the Formal Relationship of booty call, friend with benefits, shag partner.

If you are a non-intimate secondary source, we dis-engage with you. You are placed on the shelf again until the next time we wish to engage with you. Most NISSs do not notice this happen because they regard it as a natural lull in between meeting up, speaking and so forth. Again, it is rare for the NISS to be devalued, but if you are, then you have offended us and the Formal Relationship is terminated. You are no longer our friend.

If you are a tertiary source be it intimate or non-intimate, you will be put to one side as we dis-engage. There is no Formal Relationship to terminate. We may return to you or we may not. It depends on our fuel needs.

Thus, you need to understand that there is only ever a dis-engagement. The Narcissistic Relationship persists. If there is no devaluation, we consider the Formal Relationship to remain in place – thus you remain our booty call, our friend – but we have no need to call on you at the present time. If there is devaluation, then the Formal Relationship is over – you are no longer our wife, you are not our boyfriend, you are not the friend or friend with benefits and we dis-engage.

It is usually us who decide on this dis-engagement. Whether there is devaluation and dis-engagement or just dis-engagement, it is invariably us that makes this decision. If you reject us then it is an escape and of course we will endeavour to hold on to you.

What though of the situation where you have actually wounded us considerably, either as we dis-engaged or more likely, when you make your escape? Surely that brings about finality? That must mean we do not want to engage with you any longer because you have mortally wounded us and as a consequence if you did this as we dis-engaged with you, then we will never return yes? If you did it as part of the escape you implemented, then is it not correct to state that we will not hoover you?

No.

As mentioned many times, there is always a risk that we will come back and hoover you. There needs to be a Hoover Trigger activated by you entering a sphere of influence. Thereafter, the Hoover Execution Criteria has to be achieved. This includes various matters to balance, some increasing the risk of meeting the criteria, others diminishing that risk.

This includes

  • the type of narcissist you are dealing with
  • how your fuel was regarded
  • whether you provided character traits
  • whether you provided residual benefits
  • whether you are with somebody new
  • whether you have recovered from a position of being broken or not
  • how easy it is to contact you
  • how easy it is to make physical contact with you
  • whether we know you have been lamenting our dis-engagement
  • whether you have been angry about our dis-engagement
  • whether there are outstanding issues – money, property etc
  • whether there are obstacles
  • whether there is a risk of wounding

Thus you can see the savage wounding you may have inflicted on the last occasion we interacted is but a consideration in the criteria. Yes, it may well be an important consideration when viewed against the other criteria but it will not itself amount to a final discard.

No matter how damning we were about you, how we may well have used words such as “never”, “do not”, “forever” or “always”, we are pragmatists. It is the practical need of fuel which governs all that we do. Contradiction and hypocrisy do not concern us. We can perform a 180 degree turn, a volte face or a complete turnaround and it matters not. Those were yesterday’s words.

We do not discard.

We will always come back IF the Hoover Trigger is activated and the Hoover Execution Criteria are met.

There is no final discard.

And that is my final word on the matter.

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107 thoughts on “The Final Discard”

  1. Is there a litmus-test-question I can ask a person, to which their answer should give me a good indication of whether ir not they are a narc (or even psychopath)?

    Something which would red-flag a lack of empathy, maybe?

    I imagine most empaths start to realize that it is NOT just bad luck when we become involved with these ppl (once they recognize that they have been involved with one). I look back now with clarity and see that most ppl who have EVER been “close” to me were narcs on some level (a few deeply malign, most just self-serving).

    This is a problem with ME, not just them, if I keep acquiring friends of this sort.

    So, for day to day interactions (not exćusively intimate partners), is there a good Q that should narrow the focus? I did read the book, it’sbeen awhile…

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      1. Thank you. I will try these. It’s probably a good idea, in general, for empaths to press for details. My friends get frustrated with me for accepting ppl at face value; my mind just doesn’t go there (wherever most manipulators’ minds go). The more of your kind I encounter (and there are too many), the more obvious it becomes that I need “filter people” around me. Normal people can feel “bad juju” or get a sense when something is off with a person. I am oblivious. Every. Time.

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      2. The articles you mention here: How to expose a narcissist. Ive read the ones re exposure post escape and during devaluation. Are you talking about those?

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      3. I am talking about the articles you mention here. How to expose a narcissist. I have read the ones re exposure post escape etc. Are those the ones you are talking about?

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  2. Hallelujah!
    Now lets hope it sticks this time with those reading. My eyes roll so far up in my skull with every question about hoovers that I fear they will never be retrieved, so I can only imagine how you feel having to answer it yet again. If hes not going to hoover you then there is no need to advise us in your post. What you are really doing in your post is asking (usually reads as veiled hoping) if he will or wont because you think your circumstance is different ( it is not because this is about the behaviour of the Narcissist and not yours), and when to expect it. If you are reading and actually learning you will be armed and at the ready for whenever it happens so there is no need for a timetable or to declare it.
    In fairness new people may not know its been covered extensively but now we can direct them to this article, which btw, is another very clear and informative piece. Thanks HG.

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    1. It really runs hot and cold. Sometimes a hoover then again sometimes not. We have to retrain our brain and that isn’t easy for us empaths especially those of us who came from Narcissist parents. It will always have to be a position of vigilance now that I know… I can’t be the one who doubts their intuition and lets their hearts rule. Narcissists have proved what happens when we do. In the beginning of the pain of discard, yes we do hope for a hoover, it makes us stronger each time until finally we gain enough strength to persevere and keep going with no contact. It isn’t easy but then few things are that are worth the effort 👍

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    2. NarcAngel,
      Thanks for your post. Veiled Hope could be used as one of his categories he uses to label blog participants. 😊😂

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  3. Thank you so much, HG! You are inflicting narcissistic injury on other narcissists. Brilliant! You are the greatest of them all! Receiving emails from your blog is like receiving emails from him. You are my surrogate narcissist until I can get healthy and not desire narcissists anymore. Thank you. You have given me the strength to discard my narcissist and file for divorce.

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    1. THATS HOW I FEEL….
      BUT I’M GETTING SO MUCH SMARTER ABOUT IT AS I READ…
      I AM LEARNING ABOUT ME…IM SUPERNOAVA….
      NOW IM PLOTTING
      IT’S MORE ABOUT THE WOMEN..SHE KNEW,GOT ME HIT..
      AFTER 3 MONTHS NO CONTACT, I GOT HIM TO TAKE HIS MOTHER
      (SHE GETS COMPS)I KNEW HIS CHEAP SAS WOULD BOOK THE ROOM AND TAKE HER TO A.C.(ASLEEP BY 7, KILL TO BIRD)ID BE SAFE..I’D FUCK HIM..(SEX WORTH IT)SO I COULD FUCK WITH NEW SUPPLY (WITH PROOF)LOL
      IM LIKING, FUCKING WITH HER NOW…
      (BORED WHILE HEALING)
      SHE ALREADY TOOK DOWN A FACEBOOK POST..LOL
      ILL MOVE ON SOON..NO BETTER REVENGE BETTER THEN DOING GOOD AND LOOKING BETTER….
      I TOLD HIM IM ONE FUCK AWAY FROM BEING OVER HIM..
      ILL KEEP YOU POSTED ON THAT…
      THANKS FOR THE HELP!!

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  4. I must be projecting because the blunt cut is there. I got what you were saying on this along time ago, so I am again wondering why you seem frustrated? I did like the bit, await dramatic music, that seems like HG. New HG is seemingly angry. I know you write the articles and schedule it to post so I am not sure if this is current HG or beat the shit out of someone in a bar HG. Nevertheless they all are HG Tudor, I just wonder what is going on with The Author. You okay?

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  5. Hahaha. Your final word. 🙂 But the thing is that while he was devaluing me, trying to maneuver me into whatever he was trying, I reacted and began to discard him. Thus began the huge dance of devalue/discard/devalue/discard. I beat him to the discard (unknowingly) because as I was doing it, he was like “WTF is this game! What is this childish game?!” Ah, you mean the game you started and I just picked up and ran far ahead of you to discard you because you keeping me in devalue limbo mode is not acceptable to me? You mean that discard? It just took a while as I couldn’t let go the reality of this all and he wasn’t letting go either. Either you love me or you don’t. Either you want to pursue this or you don’t. It was that simple. The mistake he made was when we reconnected after years, he didn’t keep me as a friend to begin with. He ‘allowed’ it to be more. But I don’t do FWB. Ever. He crossed the line, and that was that. He should have not assumed that he control over it all.

    The only place we got stuck in was the final THIS IS IT! GOOD BYE! with us BOTH saying the same things to each other. It got rather comical now that I look back. And your post would be appropriate 2 years ago, when we were still really dancing, except we did actually reach that point of no return.

    Yes, I am sad. I will always have that tiny hope, but I will never react to it again. I will in fact, take his word for it that this is a good-bye and it is final. That he let go of it. That he has peace. That there was never ever anything between us. Ever. That his lies are reality is not actually Reality, they are just his lies, so I got off the train. There are not going to be any more triggers for me or him. He tried to put me in the friend box but no thank you. I am not going to allow him to play me even more. He didn’t want to love me, be with me, cherish me, value me, he doesn’t get to be my friend. I will not allow that to happen. I had deserved something from him and when he did not deliver, I deserve nothing but what he knows I deserved, wanted and needed. It may not be over in his head, but it is in my heart and yes, I am deeply sad about it but I will never, ever react to that hope in again. I stopped dreaming. I will just take care of that hope, keep it to myself, and one day, it will fade, too, like my memories of him. That’s life.

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  6. HG… is there such a thing as a tertiary intimate relationship? Say you lived in different cities and met once a month or so for many years. Are intimate relationships with the narcissist always primary or secondary?

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    1. Hi CL,

      Intimate Primary – wife/husband. co-hab partner, bg/gf
      INtimate Secondary – affair, booty call, friend with benefits, occasional shag
      Intimate Tertiary – one-night stand, prostitute

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  7. The narc tried hoovering me with a Facebook message a few weeks ago, saying he hopes that I am well. I responded, “Yes, I am.” He sent a reply but I deleted it without opening it, so that it would not be marked as “seen”. Is there a chance he will hoover again or would it be too risky since I ignored his last message? I must admit, ignoring the narcissist is very satisfying.

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    1. Hello Lun Chi, you responses appropriately but this in itself would not be sufficient to deter a further hoover. Your response will need to be repeated a number of occasions.

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  8. Yes indeed this is exactly as I have experienced it, the ex narc had his manager deliver an email to me declaring that my narc wished no further contact with me. So we stayed NC for 2 months… but out of the blue one day last April narc texted me a simple message of ” peace and love “..
    so we were reconnected until 2 months ago when I decided to go NC on the quiet. No hoover maneuver as of yet but I know it’s coming thanks to you 👍

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  9. Another brilliant article, HG! I am always amazed at how profound your awareness is of the often conflicting feeling of those affected by the narcissistic dynamic. I was an intimate secondary source for my narc. When he discarded the old primary source and started working on the new primary source, our interaction changed more in the direction of friends (non-intimate). Based on your previous insight, which I appreciate very much, I may currently be on the shelf (he has been quiet for several months and I have not reached out either). Is the earlier pre-disengagement shift from intimate to non-intimate friends normal given he was seducing the new primary source? What could I expect to happen in the future? Thank you very much!

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  10. For all the times that you can make me cry you can also make me laugh and your last line did just that.

    All of that article was soooo true. I wish I would have counted how many times I really thought it was the end of our friendship and our relationship. I wasted so many days crying because I couldn’t stand to think that my ex was moving or joining the Marines or just leaving because she couldn’t stand to hurt me anymore. They were all lies. So many elaborate stories.
    Her acting was excellent.
    She was never leaving.

    Almost a year later and she hasn’t made a move.

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  11. If the path of another appliance hoovers you in – the story hots up. That splash of red. Be ready this time and really inhale. Get a good lung full of pollen. It’s the homeopathic way to build immunity.

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  12. A magistrates protective order does interfere with any hoovering attempts. As she lives in the neighborhood. Being a car guy as we’ve discussed in private emails HG …let’s just say while washing my new car the other day she passed by. I didn’t acknowledge or look her way. The doors were up on the Maclaren SP 650. No fuel, just enjoying life post abuse. I felt nothing! It’s taken time and your writings have made it all possible. Thank you!

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  13. I just finished your latest book “Why” HG. The entry “Why Does It Take So Long To Get Over Us” is great. It gives a very good picture as to why some of us continue to drive you crazy with questions about hoovering. I think it’s different for every victim and that it simply takes what it takes to achieve healing. I am guilty of hoping but when I read what you write I am brought back to reality. I am indeed learning but that doesn’t mean I’m no longer affected by the intense cult like conditioning and manipulation of your kind. Maybe there will come a day when I never wonder about the possibility of hoovering again. I’ll be gentle with myself until that time comes while also remembering that your kind worked very hard to make sure I had hope long after you disappeared.

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  14. “We will always come back IF the Hoover Trigger is activated and the Hoover Execution Criteria are met.”
    So if not, there actually IS a final discard. Ahhh, the question of hoovers…they will follow you to your grave, Sir Tudor. Your readers will Hoover you til death do us part, LOL.

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    1. No. The final discard suggests some act of finality on our part. There is not. We have, in our minds, the right to return to you and we will endeavour to do so. It is a dis-engagement and we will look to come back and hoover you and most of the time either it happens or there is an attempt.

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      1. Except this HG, “We will always come back IF the Hoover Trigger is activated and the Hoover Execution Criteria are met.”

        Neither will happen in my case. 100% sure of it. So his discard and my discard, honestly couldn’t tell who was discarding who at the end, will be complete. I have no doubt he is a narc, but he is extremely stubborn and proud and locked in an extremely self-righteous position, that there is no way he is going to back down from the last position he took. The only Hoover Trigger is if I were to contact him in a few months and I am done with my role.

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      2. You cannot be 100% sure that there will be no hoover trigger because you have no control over entering the sixth sphere of influence. Your narcissist may see something and be reminded of you or your name just pops randomly into his head in the same way you might just think of Tom Hardy. Thus there remains a risk.

        Similarly whilst the attainment of the Hoover Execution Criteria may be remote now, things change and our legendary hypocrisy and contradictory nature mean that yesterday we were never speaking to you again becomes tomorrow’s hoover.

        You can never say never unless we die before you.

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      3. Ok, we shall see. I have learned alot here on top of what I knew. It may be manipulative, but it was also a rather logical step to my healing, but lets see if the ground I laid ever results in a hoover. If not, I think I will be at peace with where I am in this. As I said in another post, despite how easy it is to do all you do, some of us did care for you. I actually cared for him well before he opened up his bag o’tricks. Part of my healing was to get out of the puppet mode he put me in and reclaim what I felt well before he started playing god. So I can walk on in love, not carrying his projected bitterness and anger and rage. I am actually not angry anymore. I see what parts of my initial anger and hurt were mine, and what parts were him manipulating me into a position of anger and frustration and ‘craziness’ for his fuel and fun and so he didn’t have to be the container for his own negative energy. This understanding is what I really got from your blog. Once I could see what he was doing, and let that ‘false’ anger go, I was able to deal with my own true hurt and anger. So let’s see if my genuine return to my own feelings (took a long time) and expression of it for my own closure ever results in a hoover. Lets see if his “there is nothing to salvage, I don’t care anymore, good-bye, you are not my type, you are delusional (and all those other words he used), there is nothing between us, and on and on” were the end. I would welcome a hoover at some point. If only to prove me wrong and HIM wrong (that he is not done, not that he cared, but he is still engaged in this), and that you were right! ROTFL. Then I can have a nice long laugh at it all. You will be the first to hear if he hoovers. Remember, I think I am on some level, a virtual primary supply. But you will be the first to know as any hoover he attempts right now, will need to be benign and with a tinge of love bombing. I just don’t think he is capable of relinquishing his narc self-imprisoned position though. And malign is so passe right now between us. lol. And if he does, I will email you consult questions right away. As a way to take that hoover, and respond/not respond in a way that will allow the power to stay in my court and to move on from this with love and not anymore anger or hurt.

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      4. Why does it always have to be about power? That’s the part that is the most hurtful. Why is power more important than anything? Same with my narcmother. Power, power, power, control control. Not love. There is a beautiful world out that that doesn’t revolve around power. I seize the power and all that means a a big fat goodbye afterwards. 🙁

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      5. Sarabella
        I hear you, but power is not always absolute or corrupt. You have the power to see clearly the situation now, to make good decisions for your future and that of your daughter (if memory serves), and to enjoy life. You have power that some victims do not yet have and some never will. You can also choose how to use it where your abusers never will. They must use any power they have trying to maintain a facade that will deny them to ever know happiness as you know it. Power is good depending who you are and how you use it. Use yours to deny them any they ever had over you and that is the ultimate use of power.

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      6. Thank you NarcAngel. I am going through a profoundly painful triggering of some things, that directly go back to my own childhood trauma and its rearing again with this person. This is the first time I can trace this level of fear, abandonment and anxiety back to specific moments of my life that were in fact, life and mind threatening. He has triggered them all. But I appreciate fully what you said about another kind of power that isn’t about the corruption of another. I was so originally convince of his happiness, that it still lingers even though I have heard he is not at all a happy person, like no one and not even himself. Never had a happy relationship. But I bought the facade that still rattles around in my head. But thank you so much, the post is timely as I have had a terrible 3 days.

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      7. So this is why we fail to take our own position and stay solid with it. We don’t need fuel. Or the control. Not on that level, not that kind. And without that appetite for so much fuel or control, we don’t take the part of the power that you are so after. Hence why it stays lopsided and can never work. So, there are two ways out. Accepting the feeling of being ‘powerless’, stop trying to manage the lopsided power game. Or, play a harder game, take it all, and then blow out. Most empaths aren’t equipped for the second option. Any power or fuel we get from that strategy is short lived for so many reasons. It’s not what we wanted to do, how we wanted to be. It doesn’t sustain us for long. We get minimal thought fuel for it. And soon, we slide back into working our particular approach to getting power. But most of us are uncomfortable with that place it leaves us, powerless. So we rise up, try one more time to play it your way, fail again and we return to ourselves, lick our wounds, then give one more go at how we see the world and how we want it to be…. run into the same power issues, fall down, lick our wounds… Over and over, pretty much, huh?

        So if we don’t want to do some slick power revenge narc like grab and walk with our head held high, we have to get comfortable with who we are, with maybe even our neediest sides ourselves, and then ultimately, find the path to allow ourselves to feel so powerless and walk away, having deep faith that it will get better in time.

        Two options only, right?

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      8. Out of curiosity to this. I Know Narcissists don’t value or care for their supply. But do you think the fact that they never fully feel like it is the end with the supply that they don’t feel any loss, therefore no emotional pain? I they knew when the discard was happening that the supply was gone for good out of their life, would it not trigger some similar panic inside of them the same way the supply feels?

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      9. I think there is force in your suggestion Allison, the only ‘pain’ that is felt at the end is where you do the escaping and you cause the fuel crisis. It is the potential (then actual) loss of the primary source of fuel which causes the problem, not the loss of the person and the relationship per se.

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      10. Would you say HG that the narcissist can not stand that the primary source no longer loves him or wants him. ( I know this is all called fuel) but in non narcissistic terms , isn’t it the narcissist wanting to be wanted and loved regardless of the fact they don’t actually reciprocate that , but they still want that person to want and love them

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      11. No, because when you are being devalued that moment has gone (for the time being) and we want your negative fuel, the love etc is to come from elsewhere.

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      12. Thank you for explaining that again you do have the patience of a saint on this blog with going over the same stuff , god knows how your so tolerant . I suppose I meant when they are trying to get the formal relationship back and they’re benign hoovers are being ignored . I guess not all of them have the options that others have . To seamlessly move from appliance to appliance and mine for example does not always have a public girlfriend because he doesn’t necessarily always want one can’t be bothered with the effort that has to be put in to that and doesn’t have a queue waiting for him and also has the nerve to be picky

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      13. You are welcome Lisa. Where the narcissist is unable to resurrect the Formal Relationship with a former IPPS, then either a fuel crisis looms which may well result in a Panic Pick (see Have You See Who He Is With) or there is reliance on supplementary sources (the efficacy of which varies dependent on the extent of the fuel matrix and the school of narcissist – see The Veiled Primary Source and the Fuel Matrices – Parts one to Three).

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  15. He discarded me but in some twisted way it was my decision. I let him. I have noticed some red flags( although it was already too late) and my guts were telling me I should end it. I could not found a strength tho and he sensed it. I was also afraid of how he would react. I knew it would crashed his ego that someone like me dared to leave him. So it had to come from him. It was the only way to free myself I believed. It was the right thing to do and I thought I’m gonna be fine…. but I’m not. I only realised afterwards what damage has been done to me and because of the way he discarded me I now struggle to move forward. He won.

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    1. abrokenwing,
      They never win, you won now collect your prizes:
      Love
      Peace
      Healthy Self Esteen/Self Worth
      Joy
      Knowledge
      Life
      Purpose
      Hope
      Grace
      Healing
      Mental Cognitive

      And, countless other rewards we obtain after we decide to disengage with their kind. Their thoughts aren’t real and they are delusional to think we will always be a part of them. We hold the key to that door. We must remain vigilant of their tactics but not allow them to consume us.

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      1. Snow White,
        Thank you… being able smile again is another great reward we give ourselves.

        I see smiling eyes again.😊😊

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  16. So what you didn’t do was tell us how each of the questions impact on the hoover. Whether you were angry about the dis-engagement…if you were does this increase or decrease the chance of the hoover? etc, Sometimes I think you are just teasing us.

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  17. I’m curious. What would you do if you were *forced* to discard a supply? Say you were married to (A). However, one of your other supplies (B) found out about another supply (C) and enraged threatened to tell (A) unless you dropped (C)? Does juggling all of those supplies ever get tricky? Has something like that ever happened to you?

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      1. Ya got spunk, HG. Would you intimidate (B) into submission or trick her into thinking she had gotten her way, as to prevent her telling (A), but continue to see (C), gaining extra fuel in knowing you were fooling (B) while you were doing so? Sorry for the alphabet.

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      2. Careful Kitty, you will cause Indy to come over all unnecessary with spunky talk.
        I assume that A is the IPPS and B and C are IPSSs in your example. If B wanted to threaten me in this way by threatening to tell A about C unless I dropped C, I would draw the fuel and either
        1. Charm B into giving up on this futile plan; or
        2. Disincentivise B through threat and intimidation etc into giving up on this futile plan; or
        3. Smear B and invite her to tell A and then watch B falter

        and shortly thereafter dis-engage with B and introduce her to D.

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      3. Nobody forces you. What if you engaged with someone who was married…and they did not make the fact known? You study your prey but she doesn’t wear her ring bc problems. You are all charming and that. What if the husband came after you with a weapon and advised you to never contact his property again?

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      4. Hello HG!
        Your response to Jaded made me laugh.
        That is precisely the response that my husband made to me ex. And just like you said it was all fuel to her. She didn’t care one bit and wasn’t worried at all. He threatened her and told her never to contact me again. He wanted to pay her a visit at the gym but she would have been ready and had him removed from the property. I was constantly crying and he was mad as hell and wanted to kill her. FUEL FEST!!!!

        In her mind he was invisible to her and she thought I belonged to her no matter what he said. She made that decision at the every beginning and didn’t recognize him as a threat or a boundary for her. She wanted me at that was that.

        Nothing that he said will stop her from contacting me when she decides to.

        Hi Jaded!!!! ❤️🍎❤️

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  18. My ex-narc has been married for a little over 3 months now, yet, for some reason, I’m apparently still on her mind a great deal.

    I went No Contact with her on December 27th, 2016. It lasted a little more than a month – neither one of us even trying to contact each other through the usual online methods and, for all intents and purposes, she was dead to me. Then, on January 29th, 2017, (gleaned on January 30th, 2017 in a conversation with my step-niece), I’m told that the ex-narc has been stalking/menacing my step-niece at her place of work (fast food). The ex-narc has known since last summer that my step-niece has worked there and here she is, creeping around there. My step-niece recognized the ex-narc and told me “From the way she acted and conducted herself as she came through the drive-thru, it was like she *expected* me to be there! She grabbed her order, drove around to the far end of the parking lot right across from the drive-thru window, parked and sat there for at least 20 minutes, looking over at me the whole time!”

    So, I broke No Contact to notify her via voice mail that I instructed my step-niece to call the police if she’s caught on or near the premises while my step-niece is working a shift. Then, the ex-narc contacts me back (e-mail), pleading her innocence and has taken on a much softer, less defensive/accusatory tone – ripe with sympathy plays and the like.

    I’ve been taking *days*, not minutes or even hours, to reply to the ex-narc and I’m treading *very* carefully incase her “marriage” has hit jagged rocks and is splintering fast, as I’m not someone who turns my back on people in need – if something is truly wrong, her well-being is in jeopardy and she needs my help, I’m going to give it.

    It’s weird, though. I mean, she knows I’ve got her number pegged, yet here she is – passive-aggressively poking at me (she also tried to reset my Facebook password several times on March 1, 2017), knowing full well she’s putting me in a position where I *have to* contact her.

    I’ve said this several times to friends over the last few months and it still holds true: Honestly, if there were *ever* one instance where I could actively play the role of “homewrecker” and have a clear conscience about doing it, this with the ex-narc would definitely be it.

    But, the bottom line is, however we may move forward in our association, she’s (ex-narc) *not* fooling me again.

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  19. If Tom Hardy is the guy in Taboo (I dont watch much tv or keep track of who is who), he can hoover me any day long as he uses the same voice as he does for the character. Wheres Flickatina when I finally recognize (I think lol) someone?

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    1. Deleted means that when we have dis-engaged with you as our primary source, we have a new primary source who we are infatuated with and therefore you are effectively deleted from our consciousness. Thus we behave as if you did not exist (unless of course you purposefully appear in our sphere of influence and we will usually rebuff you and then malign hoover you). Of course, once the new primary source is devalued then you are restored because you are a potential target for hoovering (subject to the HT and HEC). That is the split thinking and contradictory nature at work. You do not exist and then you do again. Why? Because either situation suits us best at the time.

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  20. This is interesting…I have been reading about narcissists for awhile now after getting traumatized and heart broken and discarded few days ago by someone who I think is a narc but not sure.

    Is there a way that someone can show narcissistic tendencies but still not be a full blown narcissist ? I had no idea of this but he definitely seems to show a lot of these traits. I never got any closure so I never found out what happened..

    I will try to condense the story as much as I can. At first the love bombing phase happened but slowly he withdrew and became cold, he would break promises and when I’d get upset in the beginning he would apologize profusely but later would either pretend nothing happened or say a bland one word sorry..

    when I’d show a frustration or try to communicate in what the status of our relationship was he said I was weak for seeking validation all the time.

    What is also bizarre is we had long discussions about love and life and he always talked about how the most important thing in the world is love…yet he said he only loves his family but said it is totally impossible for him right now to love anyone else. He said it makes him feel like shit to reject people and that he can’t give me what he wants because he did not want a relationship and that it’s dangerous to get attached. He explained the concept of attachment and how it makes people unable to think straight and ruins people…and said he experienced this himself. But can narcissists experience this ??

    Nevertheless like the stupid in love hopeful fool I said is OK and we can try. He changed his mind afterwards and decided to try again with me..

    As far as I know I thought narcissists cannot love but is it possible for someone to turn into one through horrific life event’s ? In his case it seems like particularly women whom he was involved with sexually or romantically he said devastated him at least 6 times. Because I know he treats his family and particularly his sister like a queen..

    Things got really weird when he broke down one time during the height of our arguments and I saw his true colours. He said he was emotionally destroyed how other people hurt him too much and how he cannot trust anyone again. Found out he lied about his age and while I freaked out at first (then he admitted he was crying and apologized for lying to me and how he still likes me despite the age difference) I told him I accept him as he is and I don’t mind.

    The weird thing is he did not see me for about a month after this though some communication was shared though mostly cold. I was devastated and was nearly begging him to see me until his rage exploded..I apologized and told him id wait. He said he did not want a relationship and i said thay was fine and that we can be friends with benefits (sincerely didnt mind trying this at this point) and he agrees. Until finally one day he said he was ready to see me again and he seemed the most open and comfortable with me, cuddled and had sex and even slept over despite me knowing that he hates my bed…

    He leaves and say’s see you next time as usual but goes stone cold. The next few days our conversations always seems forced and he seemed completely apathetic. I ask if he wants to hang out and he tells me not to ask him right now. There was no reason for this coldness but I was used to his hot and cold after sex (always after he came over to my place he would do this ) but this was the coldest he has ever been..so I got more bold and just asked him point blank, if he’s bothered by me and why on earth he avoids actually wanting to hang out and do anything because I thought we were on friendly terms.

    He then explodes in the coldest way possible saying everytime I speak to him I talk to him like there is a contract and terms to respect which is bs and that I ask way too many questions and make him very upset. He said he decided to break his contract from me (whatever that meant since I never thought he was a contract). Alarm bells rang in my head naturally and I insistantly asked what I did wrong and why he’s being that way..and I repeatedly asked if I was ever even a friend. He avoids the question and says retarded things that makes no sense to mock me and torture me like Donald trumps the reason etc

    Later he said I did nothing but that he won’t see me for awhile. .then later said i ask too many questions. He partially blocks me only to unblock me later. I then sent him a long message basically being honest with him and saying I would never have done the mixed signals and the crap he did and that I hope he lets go of whatever resentment he had in his life and made sure to say “well I guess this is truly goodbye”.

    And the very last thing he sent to that was also saying yes goodbye, a smiley face(to which I said this is not a funny matter) and told me to take it easy but does not block me. I deleted him now off fb but from.the sound of this it really does seem to be the final end.

    I know it’s long but my conclusion is this. After I saw his true unmasked self he got super weird and cold and almost afraid of me avoiding me like the plague and things were not the same since. I don’t know if he truly felt bad lying to me about my age ad he admitted he was weak but after I still took him back could it be possible that I became repulsive to him for allowing myself to take him back ? Lost respect ? But then why would he come back after a month to my place only to get stone cold again..I also don’t think he ever saw me remotely as a friend even after 4 months..

    I know my insistant questions were driving hiM crazy even though it was not my fault but doesn’t this sound like it is actually the end ? He doesn’t seem to delete or block anyone but because I deleted him ( though not blocked) I don’t think he will try again because before he never really finalized saying goodbye but this time he did.

    Please answer some of these my heart feels like death and I am trying to move on ..I can’t believe I fell so in love with someone like this and embarrassingly a much younger man as well. I am torn wondering if it’s his age or if he really is a narcissist as he’s 19 year’s old…

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    1. Hello Kry, a post of this length and the questions posed are best suited to a private consultation for the purposes of ensuring you are given detailed insight and answers.

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  21. HG, I am repeating my question as it got missed (I know how busy you are). I would appreciate your insight. I was an intimate secondary source for my narc. When he discarded the old primary source and started working on the new primary source, our interaction changed more in the direction of friends (non-intimate). Based on your previous insight, which I appreciate very much, I may currently be on the shelf (he has been quiet for several months and I have not reached out either). Is the earlier pre-disengagement shift from intimate to non-intimate friends normal given he was seducing the new primary source? How long does the dis-engagement with the shelved IPSS last? Thank you very much!

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    1. He evidently saw the new IPSS as a Candidate IPSS and saw such promise he decided that he would not continue with intimacy with you and instead demoted you to NISS, but saw no need to dis-engage. He did not dis-engage from you, but demoted you to a different class of appliance.

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      1. Thanks so much, HG! Really appreciate your invaluable insight! Indeed, there was a Candidate IPSS involved, which most likely has become the new primary source. When I first found out about her (on my own, he did not tell me), I got upset because I wanted him for myself. I threatened to walk away but stayed and continued supporting him and praising him throughout his divorce and while he was developing the relationship with the candidate ipss. We never discussed this new relationship of his after this one discussion. That’s when our conversations changed to more like friends without romantic and sexual messages. I think he has now been in the golden period with this new Primary (who used to be the candidate ipss) for a while. Is this normal that he demoted me to NISS while focusing on the new primary source and while in the golden period with her? Do you think he is going to reinstate me as his intimate partner secondary source once the new primary is devalued?

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  22. I was an ISS for over 2years…there have been silent treatments and Devaluation (maybe also for not having time for him lately?). now he ended the relationship because it wouldn’t be the same anymore and it would be about time because he always told me how it would end!
    But this is no discard? I am not safe?

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  23. HG- I’m one of the Hoover question people annoying you probably. Sorry! I’m still not back to normal yet but over 3 weeks no contact. I’m going to read “Hoover Time.” Probably a lot of the questions I’ve asked you are covered in books I haven’t gotten to yet. Thank you for doing this. I’m sure without this information I would have humiliated myself by acting out on my unstable emotional thinking. Sometimes it’s all I can do to re-read your consultation and books to feel some comfort. Deleting the social media from my life is the best thing I’ve ever done. Thank you again.

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    1. We are all about the hoovers… and they all suck when they come. It’s all about him and completely ignoring the last letters with soul wreaking text… a sorry would simply do .. but nope … all about him …
      The hoovers for me has been more validation that he is an N. silent treatment, ignore to reply to uncomfortable questions and strange hoovers such as photos out of no where is just N …. nothing else.
      We wish for them… we long for them …but now I live my life and soon I don’t even care. I guess that is what we should strive for..not caring st all. Hugs

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  24. My ex narc went 15 weeks without visiting his children. I would text/email constantly – why? Where are you? What are you doing that is so much more important than your children? If he responded, which was rare, he would merely say “I’ve been so busy. Will visit soon”. Finally I gave up. Went no contact. 8 days later he texted me “when can I visit the children”. Was this a hoover?

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  25. I just became aware that I was in a relationship with a narcissist…i had known him briefly because he’d dated an ex-friend…he worked in my area but actually is from out of state…he’d told me he was separated from his wife and that she’d taken all his $ and I helped him of course because I’m an empath….things just really started not adding up and red flags were emerging so I started a Google search…he was lying about alot of things…property he supposedly owned…income…divorce…etc…i finally sent him a message to pay me back or there’d b repercussions…he ignored me so I at this point was not playing around and I notified his current wife thru Facebook and have her all screenshots I had…i just want to know if u believe he’ll leave me totally alone because I’m in fact fearful of his actions towards me now due to the fact that I completely destroyed his marriage…she is filing for divorce…as a narcissist can u give me ur opinion to hopefully put my fears to rest?

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  26. Wow…I thought final, we broke up and we both have new partners.
    Final, as we both moved on amicably.
    So, no discard, only dis engagement…he hasn’t even done that bit, yet. Not ,really.

    So, if she doesn’t work out, he may try to come back for a formal relationship, again? He should know better. I have someone, he moved on in a week, it took me five months!! We are still pleasant to each other.

    I think he is UMRN, but still not sure.

    Thank you for having me read this…enlightening!!

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  27. HG, strangely I’ve never been discarded he’s never ended it really , it’s always me because I’m so frustrated with him but he’s happy plodding along in his ground hog day world . The relationship suits him as long as it’s on his terms I don’t think he would end it . He’s such a creature of habit . But when I finish with him he makes no attempt in any real way to fix things or save it , maybe a couple of texts or a talk but not much . I wonder if some don’t disgard . He has always come back but I don’t think he will this time but as you say there’s no final as such , but he knows he’s a narcissist and incapable of a relationship . That has never been said before so I suppose that’s progress

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  28. It’s true. I don’t want it to be over because I’m miserable and I want it to be over for the same reason. What a mind f*ck. I’d like to think I won’t respond this time. But I know better.

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  29. I have come across your writings a few times via links from other sites. I have to say that this is the most sensible thing from you that I have seen so far. Doesn’t make ME feel good, but it makes absolute sense.

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  30. No contact and a restraining order will give you your life back!! they will soon get fed up of going back and forth to prison if everytime they came close you had no contact and just called the police to deal with it. It’s my answer and is working for me. Mine just did 18mnth in prison for the abuse he bestowed upon me.. If he comes near me having contact via himself or a third party or comes anywhere near my address in the next 3yrs he will have to go back and serve another 22mnth.. Il take another restraining order out after this one finishes and hopefully will get a lifetime ban 🙂 and guess what HG neither of us are dead! And I live a happy life he didn’t win.. Suck on them apples!!

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  31. I was in a two year relationship ( after being friends for over 20 years) with a Narc. It was wonderful ( he was military and I was his home town high school crush). After less than 90 days he was talking marriage and moving in and I was always skeptical. As soon as I let my guard down and feel head over heals he started distancing himself. I found out our whole two years he had other supplies ( though no one had actually went on a date or had intimate contact he flirted and provided them with money). I found out he lied about being deployed and not having a working cell phone. So I called it OFF immediately and he went insane. Accusing me of abandoning him, sent over 200 text calling me a quiter on us. And over 100 emails when I blocked his number. He kept saying he cant tell me why he did it, or its pointless since I am leaving. So I threatened to report him to command. He then told his family and friends I was harassing and stalking him so I showed them ALL the emails and text contradicting EVERYTHING he had said. I would block emails he would create new ones for contact until I involved his family. Then I got an email saying to move on or he would report me for harrassment and its been silent ever since so I am nervous. I was amazed because I knew all his deepest darkest secrets after 20 years of being best friends. He knows I can destroy his life and career. So I was in awe that he turned out to be a liar/cheater! We had broken up several times before but never more than a few days and never this ugly. SO I am waiting around….FINAL discard or him plotting his revenge.

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  32. So he says he ” can’t do this anymore ” and stops texting or returning my texts , he even blocked me from messaging him on FB yet didn’t completely block me , not sure why he didn’t just fully block me ? Any insight ? He’s told me he’s done before May times but never blocked me from messaging . He’s even now attending church and posting all these public posts about how he loves his church and his spouse , when he was divorcing until he went awol from me . All very confusing

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  33. What are the most common signs that a hoover is coming. I have an ex gf who I suspect as having this disorder. Our breakup was explosive, followed by an ‘I’ll change…’ hoover. I stood up for 2 weeks and then caved, i was then full out discarded and blocked from all channels.

    I do still want this person and there have since been multiple unblocks and subsequent blocks (days later) without any interaction. Now there has been an unblock whilst she is away with a ‘rival’. I don’t know whether or not this is trying to elicit some sort of a response but i need help to try to gauge the situation.

    I want to know whether I should engage, in the form of a social media activity or email but would like to gather some thoughts on what is going on here. My objective is to be back together with this person as, regardless of the N traits, i am in love and they are manageable. The initial breakup was instigated by me and now wish I could revert.

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  34. Hi,
    I don’t know if this is alarming or not… But anyway I’d like to thank you to help us know what’s going on the other side. One of my therapist tells me to write about how I feel, and once I wrote “this will only end with the death of one of us”. So reading this, I guess I was right. I don’t feel like I don’t want this to end – I mean you write it like we’re asking for it. I’m in a stage of dis-engagement because my narc has a new toy. And I built my life by my side, with caring people. But I know, deep inside, that this is not the end. And it is really fear that I feel. Because I don’t know when or where or how it will come back. It is no game for me. I don’t feel it that way, like I’m asking for it and feel abandonned and wait patiently for my narc to get back at me once again. All I feel is that I’ve been in psychatric unit because someone needs psychiatric help. That is how I feel from my side.

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  35. Hi HG. I was discarded about 3 weeks ago. He is onto another supply source. I involved his brother to not have any contact with him. I needed him to return my cat to me which he refused. His brother got him back for me. I had to threaten him with assault charges for him to finally give him up. His brother also has proof of the black eye, bruises etc. I am still considering pressing charges etc….. I believe that this is the Final Discard and I am thankful for it. I severed ties with our mutual friends, blocked him, deleted all our pictures, gave away the jewlery he gave me etc… How could he even consider hoovering with the threat of assault charges and knowing I will contact his brother if he dares to contact me. I mean seriously HG, your kind is not stupied. Eventually you stop and move on right! Assualt charges will ruin his life. He has a job were he needs RCMP clearance.

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    1. Hello Sophie.

      1. There is no such thing as a Final Discard.
      2. If he has a new IPPS and you are not entering a sphere of influence (re cat, etc) then whilst there is likely to be a Hoover Trigger, he is unlikely to execute the hoover because he has a new IPPS. It is that which is preventing it happening alongside you staying off his radar.
      3. You need to build your defences in the mean time because when he devalues the new IPPS (and he will) you are at an increased risk of being hovered, subject to how effective you have built your new contact. If you need to discuss this in greater detail with me for the purposes of gaining assurances and understanding, please book a consultation.

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      1. Thank you HG. There is zero chance of us ever bumping into each other so that is a good thing. He is also in therapy and attending SAA support group meetings. Maybe his new IPPS will not have to live what I did or maybe all of that was bs. I am building my defences. I am in therapy and attending support groups. He won’t ever get me to fall for him again. Thanks again!

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  36. HG, I know your probably so tired of the hoover questions and I get that they can hoover for ever , I get about the spheres and the opportunities etc or if they have a new primary source . I have ignored all hoovers now for nearly 4 months , these were hoovers pleading to get back into the formal relationship and promises of going to doctors , last week the Happy Birthday was after 3 weeks of silence . My question is purely , as trying to get me back into the Formal Relationship and let’s say he has no other primary , having been ignored with all his attempts including wishing me happy birthday will he now give up on the formal relationship ? I have sold my house he does not know and I am just waiting for a move date , I’m moving away from the area , but feel anxious ?

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    1. It depends on how his fuel matrix is constituted. He may drop the idea for a time and resurrect it later (e.g. he gets a new IPPS who he then disengages from and thus looks around for a new one, which may include you as a prospect).

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  37. Well I left my narc two months ago and she went in to a rage and said I didn’t want you anyway because your cheap and dont like to spend money..so have a nice life..do this mean she will leave me alone and never come back.

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    1. HG
      If I’m discarded why does he get upset when I ignore him? I have to deal with him almost daily but after the back and forth I tried ignoring…. he was no doubt affected..so why ?

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