The Final Discard


“He told me he never wanted to see me again so long as he was alive. That is it. This time it  really is over.”

“She told me I was useless, pathetic, that she hated me and she would call the police if I came near her again. I don’t understand what is going on, but all I know that is the absolute end.”

“He made it clear that there is no future for us, that he cannot stand the sight of me and that he wants me packed and gone by morning. This is it. It really is it, this time.”

“She has taken everything and left me a letter explaining that she cannot do it any more, that she needs to find herself, whatever that means and there is no future for us together. I knew this was coming, I could tell, I have been given the final discard.”

The final discard. The curtain of conclusion. The guillotine of totality.

It really is over.

So often victims of our kind distinguish between being discarded and then there is (await dramatic music) the FINAL discard. There is being kicked to one side by us but the prospect of being hoovered back in and then there is the final discard whereby you have been removed from your association with us and it is the end of the entanglement and there will be no more engagement between you and I.

Victims often consider declaring that this time is the final discard and they do this for two reasons, which, interestingly are conflicting.

The first reason is that they desperately hope that it is not the final discard at all and that when they explain to whoever is listening to them recount the minute my minute dynamic of this final discard, that the person will tell them that it is not. The victim is hoping that the listener will provide some cogent reason, some piece of evidence which will explain that it cannot be the final discard and thus fulfil that which blazes at the heart of all empathic individuals; hope.

The victim does not want the entanglement to end. He or she cannot bear the pain. They do not want this to be their exile, their abandonment or their expulsion. They want to remain with us but fear that this time it really is the end and they are crying out for somebody to tell them that it is not, just so they can cling to a hope.

The second reason is because the victim does indeed hope that it is over so they are freed from our monstrous clutches. They want that to be the end. The victim, either at the time or sometime after this final discard, having gained some knowledge and understanding, ascertains that what they did caused significant wounding (although often they are wrong about that) and that this wounding was to such a degree that it sent us packing with our tail between our legs, skulking away, broken, humiliated and shame pouring from us, so that we will never, ever dare risk returning to you. The victim concludes that what they did has sent us packing and we will not darken their doorstep or inbox again. It is an understandable conclusion to reach.

There is no such thing as a final discard.

There is no such thing as a discard.

There is only ever dis-engagement.

This is because in our minds you belong to us and the Narcissistic Relationship lasts until you die or we die. That is only when finality applies to our connection. You are our property. You are our fuelling appliance. You are good and then you are bad. You are of use and then you are of no use. And then you are of use again.

We have invested time and energy in you. We want to reap the benefits time and time again.

If you are our primary source, we will dis-engage with you. We paint you black and do not want anything more to do with you at that time. It may appear as if we have ‘discarded’ you, but it is merely the termination of the Formal Relationship. You are not our girlfriend, partner, wife any longer. The Narcissistic Relationship persists. We do not draw fuel from you, we do not take your character traits, we do not take your residual benefits. You are deleted as we enter a golden period with a new primary source.

If you are an intimate secondary source, we will dis-engage with you. You are placed on the shelf, back in the cupboard, ready for the next time we want to engage with you. You are not deleted. You are just not required. For now. There is no discard. You usually are not devalued. If you are, then you have offended us and there will be a dis-engagement and a termination of the Formal Relationship of booty call, friend with benefits, shag partner.

If you are a non-intimate secondary source, we dis-engage with you. You are placed on the shelf again until the next time we wish to engage with you. Most NISSs do not notice this happen because they regard it as a natural lull in between meeting up, speaking and so forth. Again, it is rare for the NISS to be devalued, but if you are, then you have offended us and the Formal Relationship is terminated. You are no longer our friend.

If you are a tertiary source be it intimate or non-intimate, you will be put to one side as we dis-engage. There is no Formal Relationship to terminate. We may return to you or we may not. It depends on our fuel needs.

Thus, you need to understand that there is only ever a dis-engagement. The Narcissistic Relationship persists. If there is no devaluation, we consider the Formal Relationship to remain in place – thus you remain our booty call, our friend – but we have no need to call on you at the present time. If there is devaluation, then the Formal Relationship is over – you are no longer our wife, you are not our boyfriend, you are not the friend or friend with benefits and we dis-engage.

It is usually us who decide on this dis-engagement. Whether there is devaluation and dis-engagement or just dis-engagement, it is invariably us that makes this decision. If you reject us then it is an escape and of course we will endeavour to hold on to you.

What though of the situation where you have actually wounded us considerably, either as we dis-engaged or more likely, when you make your escape? Surely that brings about finality? That must mean we do not want to engage with you any longer because you have mortally wounded us and as a consequence if you did this as we dis-engaged with you, then we will never return yes? If you did it as part of the escape you implemented, then is it not correct to state that we will not hoover you?


As mentioned many times, there is always a risk that we will come back and hoover you. There needs to be a Hoover Trigger activated by you entering a sphere of influence. Thereafter, the Hoover Execution Criteria has to be achieved. This includes various matters to balance, some increasing the risk of meeting the criteria, others diminishing that risk.

This includes

  • the type of narcissist you are dealing with
  • how your fuel was regarded
  • whether you provided character traits
  • whether you provided residual benefits
  • whether you are with somebody new
  • whether you have recovered from a position of being broken or not
  • how easy it is to contact you
  • how easy it is to make physical contact with you
  • whether we know you have been lamenting our dis-engagement
  • whether you have been angry about our dis-engagement
  • whether there are outstanding issues – money, property etc
  • whether there are obstacles
  • whether there is a risk of wounding

Thus you can see the savage wounding you may have inflicted on the last occasion we interacted is but a consideration in the criteria. Yes, it may well be an important consideration when viewed against the other criteria but it will not itself amount to a final discard.

No matter how damning we were about you, how we may well have used words such as “never”, “do not”, “forever” or “always”, we are pragmatists. It is the practical need of fuel which governs all that we do. Contradiction and hypocrisy do not concern us. We can perform a 180 degree turn, a volte face or a complete turnaround and it matters not. Those were yesterday’s words.

We do not discard.

We will always come back IF the Hoover Trigger is activated and the Hoover Execution Criteria are met.

There is no final discard.

And that is my final word on the matter.



  1. Question… so if the IPPS is devalued and subsequently discarded, this means the formal relationship has ended. If after some time contact is reestablished (either by the narc or the empath) and also an intimate relationship is being established without, however, engaging again in the formal relationship from before… does this make the empath the IPSS (supposedly one of many) or is the empath still the IPPS (on top of other IPPS). And, when subsequently a new devaluation and discard occurs, what are the implications for the further relationship (assuming there will be a hoover at some point)?

  2. Though this post is nearly 3 years old, it’s a good read if you’ve been involved with a narcissist. It popped up on a newsfeed so I thought I’d check it out. You get to see inside the head of a narcissist and as you can see, it’s pretty intense. While everything he says here may be true for him, it does not have to be true for you. Today is a new day. Enjoy your life. No matter what a narcissist says or thinks. He can own you in his mind, but he doesn’t get to own you in yours. That’s your choice.

    1. thank you . I just got trashed by a narc after two cases where the police came. Once he was arrested on serious charges with his son. I helped him. This last one he was arrested when he got pissed when I was drunk and nearly killed me pushing me off a 4 foot deck onto my face and neck. I was arrested by HE was terrified he is agoraphobic anyway. He is totally in fear of jail and authority. He dumped me hard as soon as I got out of jail. He was very concerned that I not let anyone think he had any responsibility for my injuries. His concerns were relieved. He dumped me.
      Oh well, you know. Times to get over him.

  3. the funny part at this point after 4 years is that I really am done. The real him was exposed and it wasn’t nearly as impressive as I thought. In fact it was kind of sad, seedy , manipulative and pathetic. I don’t want to get back with him. The fucking rotten stuff he said about me will forever permeate our former love nest and I could never have sex in there again after his basic rape and torture of me he put me through that last night. He has NO emotional capacity. I always thought mine was low and deficient, hell, I am not even in the same ballpark as that zombie. He is the biggest coward I have ever met. that too was exposed. He will live his life like a demented groundhog day. Person after person, relationship after relationship, sober times after binge times, over and over . Now that he is middle aged it is even worse. I am a lot older than he is but he is an old man who thinks he knows how to pull his former glory of a body out of the flabby ashes of chain smoking, pot smoking, binge drinking hell. He has NO life as he went for disability. He is a slave to his check and his food stamps. Why , now that I have seen the cruelly inside him would I or anyone who has really seen him want that back? Hoover on dude. I am outta here.

  4. My discard was shocking. I was starting to see that things were changing between us; and I had started to comment to my family (who do not live with me) about his short comings. I had a thought the week prior to the big discard was that if he didn’t start paying for the rent he was supposed to, or pay me back the money he owed me, or get back into taking care of the household responsibilities that we were supposed to share, that in 4 months time I would have to talk about him moving out.

    I suspect he sensed all this about me and my family. I think he realized his track had come to an end. So instead of being a decent person he created a drama that hurt me deeply. The night “it happened” we had been enjoying playing cards (although, I was beating him and that had been consistent for a while and I believe he thought he was the best at that game, and realized he wasn’t), having fun watching movies and laughing.

    We took a break and he followed me and I said, “Tell me you love me” and as it turns out he had “told me 3 or 4 times about that, that he could not stand the manipulation” (I never heard that statement once). So his eyes changed from the sweet, glittery eyes he always projected, to evil, lizard eyes. I will never forget that look. And then he shoved me into the closet door and said, “We are done”. I snuck into the near by bathroom and said meekly, “I guess we are?” I didn’t even lock the door but he body slammed the door as though to break in, and began to throw things around the house. I could hear them breaking. And when I heard breaking happening across the house, I ran to my neighbor’s house. As I left, he screamed, “Yeah you better get the fuck out of my house.” (Oddly, it was my place that I rented; he wasn’t even on the lease, had moved in without an invitation. Sound familiar?)

    Long story short, he was arrested, he damaged so much stuff of mine (only, not his) and we have a 1 year no contact protective order in place.

    The gaslight? Yes, he told me 3 or 4 times that I should never say to him “Tell me you love me”. That is just a manipulative transgression, bad enough that he should hurt me and damage over $4,000 of my things and the apartment. That is what I deserved.

    What is sickly sad is I am still so obsessed over him. I want him to apologize. I want him to be normal and suffer from cognitive dissonance from the huge love he proclaimed no less than 10 minutes prior to him destring my life.

    It was exactly 3 months ago. I am supposed to be over it, as far as my family is concerned. But I have never been left in such a bizarre fashion and I guess I am seeking closure.

    From reading your stuff I understand that I am the lowest of the low, and yet, well…enough said. It’s all been said before. I am the loser and he is the winner.

  5. what does it mean when there is no smear campaign?
    he is been “nice” ie paying the rent/bills because we work together and i could out him to his co workers

    im 35, 18 years together 2 children- ive been dis-engaged telling me that he doesn’t” love me anymore”
    already new source in place

    1. There may be a smear campaign but you do not know about it.
      If there is no smear campaign it may well be because the narcissist sees not need for it and prefers to maintain a façade instead.

  6. Dear HG Tudor
    This web site is something…especially that heart with EVIL written inside. Wow. Thank you, if you are actually a narcissist who wants to help another person…I question it since pure evil people don’t really want to help others. But anyhow, good job. 🙂 I have a question..
    I was a friend to the N. For three weeks enough to traumatize me. What if I “discard” him and break the relationship first? I was hevily abused and accused of crazy things, I think the trigger was that I suggested emotional healing and he took it to mean me telling him he had a mental disorder and went totally off…for weeks..accusing me bashing me…full rage..for something I never even did. Now today I think it is becuase he thought I was figuring him out! Since I am trying to be a healthy person, I do not allow this kind of treatment in my life. Since I write my goodbye letter one nine days back, he replied three times in a chat. I am wondering how does this work, if I a a friend, and I break the relationship first?
    What shall I prepare myself for?

  7. Hi Annie, thank you for writing to me. I feel flattered that you actually remember my repeated comments. I feel like i have a fan or a follower. 🙂 Ok, joking aside, I just really do not believe he will hoover. That’s all. I am not going to enter the 5 spheres of influence, so the only one that remains is the 6th. I obviously cannot control that one but as more time goes by, what is the likelihood of him thinking of me? He has a new life with a new IPPS. He told me himself a few months back when we last spoke he was doing very well. I told him I was very happy for him. Yes, he knows I still love him. Well, back when we last spoke that is. Most of our interactions have always been positive. Sometimes it makes me wonder was I too compliant, adoring, gave him too much control? I tried to be a good friend to him too, always putting his interests and his best ahead of myself. Yes, that was my warped idea of what love should look like – complete giving of oneself. He asked for space to work out some issues with his IPPS and promised to contact me soon That was several months ago. Despite the tremendous emotional hurt and pain, I am honoring his request and leaving him alone. Consequently, I am not going to enter the 5 spheres. Knowing narcs and their false promises and future faking, I do not believe he will follow through and contact me as he said he would. So there you have it. I do not believe he will hoover. I hope you can now see where I am coming from.

    1. After reading more details about your situation, I would put money on it that he hoovers you. I’m like 95 % sure it will happen before the end of the year. It may just be popping in to see if you still love him and then if you are still on his mind, he will know and go away again for awhile. Or it may be a full on Hoover. But if that’s the way you left things, only 2 months ago, he’ll def. be back for more.

      1. Hello Escape Artista, Thank you for your feedback. The last contact was not 2 months ago. It was last October.

    2. Hello, IL…. “ what is the likelihood of him thinking of me?”….’thinking of you’, not in the normal way you would like him to, but yes, you now have a new acronym for what type of fuel are…. you WILL be hovered when he has exhausted all of his other sources….he will suck you in by revisiting the golden period with you….

      1. Hello Charchar, Thank you for writing to me. I am not sure how a narc can ever exhaust all his sources. I mean new ones can always be acquired and existing ones can recover and keep going. Also, to be clear, I have never been an IPPS.

    3. Hi Insatiable Learner,

      As a fellow shelved secondary source, I pay a lot of attention to your comments because you post about a lot of topics I’m interested in. I understand why you feel like you personally won’t get hoovered, but Annie is 100% correct that your emotional thinking is conning you into adopting a position that leaves you very vulnerable to a hoover.

      In my situation, I became a shelved IPSS in less than a month (confirmed with a HG consultation). Met my MMRN in May 2017, last saw her in June 2017, and I stopped trying to reach out in December 2017. We have no social overlap (no mutual friends/no social media connections/no work connections), and she definitely has a ton of appliances in her life. I thought my odds of getting hoovered were slim to none, but that was my emotional thinking conning me because deep down I wanted to be hoovered.

      It happened yesterday. I got a text from my MMRN just to say hi and say hope all is well. Letting my emotional thinking get the best of me, I responded and we had a very brief chat before she stopped responding. She got her fuel and confirmed I was still a functioning appliance and back on the shelf I went.

      It was a good/bad experience. Bad that I’m still listening to my emotional thinking and not building my defenses (I have no excuse for not blocking her number), but good that it further validates everything HG teaches us about our narcs and the hoover risks. I didn’t enjoy the hoover as much as I thought I would because it’s impossible to ignore the fact that it’s fake, and I knew HG would not approve.

      Maybe think of it this way. Your narc won’t hoover you because he’s keeping his promise to follow-up. Your narc will hoover you because there’s a hoover trigger and the hoover execution criteria are met. It’ll happen on his terms and when it does, you have to be ready. I know it’s hypocritical to be offering advice when it’s clear my emotional thinking is still prevailing, but you come across as a very articulate, intelligent person, and you deserve a lot more in life than whatever your narc can offer (which is nothing but trouble). Just wanted to share because when your hoover comes, hopefully you’ll do a better job than me and have your defenses in place.

      1. An excellent comment for several reasons and you now also know you must tighten your no contact regime. Thank you for your most constructive contribution BCHG (great name by the way – although I dress far better than Saul.)

      2. Hello, Better Call HG. Love the name! Thank you so much for reaching out. I am glad my questions and/ or comments have been of use and value to you. Your message to me made me smile and brought warmth to my heart. I feel some sort of kinship with you as a, as you put it, “a fellow shelved secondary source.” I appreciate your insight, sharing your experience, and your kind words. Please do not feel like you are being hypocritical when offering advice. The message is still true whether or not the speaker is still struggling to internalize it, act upon it, and make it his own. So, please feel free to chime in with advice, disagreement, constructive criticism, or whatever else you may wish to share. It’s all appreciated as part of the support and camaraderie we are building on here. 🙂
        I have not seen the narc since the spring of 2016. Long time. Have not spoken at all since October of last year. There was a silence of several months before that. Then I reached out. Since he got a new IPPS, he just does not seem to need me any more. In your situation, there has not been a long passage of time. In mine, there has been, which is why I am drawing a distinction. HG said that it is unlikely for the shelved appliance to remain on the shelf for more than several months, so the more time passes without a hoover, it seems reasonable to conclude a hoover is not going to happen. Hope you see my logic and rationale. Thanks again! Wishing you healing, strength, and peace.

      3. Hi Insatiable, thank you for your reply. You can feel flattered if you like… I, like BCHG, am a secondary source and tend to watch for those comments. That said, I remember this one in particular because you have said it repeatedly. And HG repeatedly has answered with “wrong”, or some version thereof. It is not so much the logic that I don’t understand, although I don’t follow that much either. It’s the fact that you are so insistent on not being hoovered. As said above, the point of the discussion is really not whether or not you will be hoovered. Even HG has taken into account in his mathematical equation the chance that a Hoover May not happen if you don’t meet the criteria. But I prefer to think in terms of what will a Hoover do to you? Where your logic breaks down to me is that, based on your explanation, it seems like you believe you will not be taken off the shelf to resume the formal relationship. But that does not mean that you won’t be hoovered. It may just take a different form, a few texts perhaps so he can gauge his fuel supply. What BCHG described happen similarly to me in January-a pleasant conversation that was abruptly ended (once he verified I was still functioning) with nothing in 8 weeks. So instead of predicting whether yours will or wont, why not ask yourself if you are ready for a lousy little hi or a short conversation that falls off somewhere in the middle or a social media request 4 years later (that happened to me with my last narc). Blocking and no contact give you time to get ready in case you are hoovered so that you won’t regress in your healing. So even if the Hoover does happen and you do respond, you are not crushed by the direction it takes. (The one in January set me back a little, but not as much as previously, so I see progress.) The reality is we are never as prepared for it, as much as we say we are or we would like to be. I don’t love my narc, but I imagine for those who do, it may even be harder to resist what might at first seem like an innocuous message. I wish you much luck in your healing, and I look forward to your continued comments.

    4. Insatiable Learner,

      Have you seen the posts where the school sweetheart returns 20, 35, 45 years later?

      What if his IPPS leaves him or dies?

      Guess where you’ll be then?

      6th sphere!

      He’s a narc and will come hoovering.

      1. Hi Perse, thank you for your comment. I wish I could just erase him from my mind like he never existed. This is one ability of narcs I sometimes wish I had, not to hurt anyone but for defensive purposes only.

  8. So guess what I came home to!?! Flowers on my porch with a card that read “not a day goes by that I don’t think of you. This isn’t how it was supposed to be. I was wrong”…. 4 months later after he said we would NEVER BE… remember that I took him back the 2nd time. But not this time. You are so right, there is NEVER a final discard.

      1. I think a more accurate rendition is “there is never a final discard for the IPPS but there is for the rest of us.”

      2. Insatiable Learner, Why do you continue to insist that an IPSS will experience a final discard? The repeated comments about how you will never be hoovered because you were an IPSS and how you don’t have to worry about no contact make it seem like you desperately want to be hoovered. I am not saying this to be a b$&*$. Rather, there is no shame in wanting to be contacted by someone who made you feel like you were important to him only for him to place you on a shelf for long periods of time. The deception and abuse are maddening for us all. There are times I want to be contacted by my long-distance narc, and I work really hard to fight the desire to contact him and think about him, particularly since I consciously know what a douchebag he is and how nearly every time I have heard from him in recent months, I have felt like I have moved backwards in my healing. (There are obviously still wounds in my subconscious that need tending.) But it seems to me that this reverse psychology approach of yours is an impediment to your healing, and improved progress would be made spending your time being honest with yourself instead of arguing with HG, who clearly has more expertise in empath manipulation. As far as I understand it, and I am not an expert, a hoover can happen anytime you enter one of his spheres and the criteria are met. That might never happen, but it just as easily could. One never knows what the future will bring. Why argue about it in the present?

      3. Annie

        I think you are exactly right. No difference between ipps and ipss in hoovering regard especially if you have a situation with an anchor ipps. To me, it seems as though the dynamic in these situations mimics more of the dynamic of an ipps being that the ipps never changes. It’s seems the ipss see the idealize, devalue, discard hoover cycle in the cases where there is an anchor ipps as she doesn’t experienced the discard. The ipss does but I’ll let you guys know as I am an ipss that has been recently discarded and blocked everywhere and honestly while it hurt and angered me, it’s been a relief so far. No more monitoring whether he’s online or if he’s gonna ignore me or say something mean. All of that anxiety of that is gone now that he’s blocked me everywhere. You become so sick of having to be hyoervigilant to their every move that it almost feels like a vacation from them

    1. Ann Abby,

      Each sex has the same habits learned from the main caregivers (misnomer) in childhood. I think this causes the neuropathways to be formed similarly in both sexes.

      They both compete in the race for winner of everything (sponsored by Narc University a Tudor Foundation) and they all receive a reward.

      Greatest a first place medal 🥇 of course.
      2nd Mid-ranger medal 🎖 and finally
      a 3rd place medal 🏅 for lessers.

      Empaths receive a Participation Ribbon 🎀 because they are necessary but don’t really count at all. Of course after the program, you’ll get jumped by a narcissist and be beat up, thrown in a picker bush and your ribbon will be confiscated and set on fire 🔥. You’ll then be asked to participate again and promised to get your ribbon back. In which the whole cycle will be repeated.

      1. Anna Belle Black,

        I appreciate your response and information. I have been getting my fair share of participation ribbons, and it is exactly as you have described… confiscated, set on fire, then asked to participate again…

        I was curious if there were differences because I am labeld as the narc…

        My problem is that I am wanting an apology from my narc for his part in the damage… and I fear I am never going to get it…

  9. So… If you were a secondary supply for 12 years as friends and then primary for 5, with a child, is there any escape without explosion? I keep trying to leave but he won’t let me. It’s gotten to the point where I panic every time my phone goes off because it might be him either verbally abusing me or pretending like we never broke up and everything’s the same as during the golden period. I am terrified to cause him narcissistic injury as he is very big and can be very violent. Not outwardly to me yet but he almost killed my dog and recently hurt our toddler (which is why I keep trying to leave). I have custody and my own apartment (acquired during a particularly discard phase) so you’d think I would feel safe enough to go no contact. But he has visitation rights and I’m scared if I open the case up again he’ll go full psycho on me
    I feel like there is no escape but waiting till I’m old and dying. 🙁

    1. Tara, the nature of your situation is a detailed one. There is much you can do and the appropriate way to address this is through a consultation.

  10. My ex is moving 1,500 miles away in less than 3 months. He has not tried to contact me since he discarded me nearly a year ago. He hasn’t been able to secure a new target in the small town in which we live.

    I am pretty confident that he has not had an IPPS since he dumped me. How can he be without an IPPS for so long? Is fuel received from co-workers enough to sustain him? He knows I still want him (I messaged him that we could still have the life we planned together).

    I do NOT want this to be the final discard because I miss him and I still love him. I am pretty sure that he is on the spectrum for NPD, but I don’t think it he is as malicious as other narcs are. I believe that this is the only and final discard for me.

  11. To the Narc does not……
    Very well written- and I believe so true. I honestly believe everything has a crack where the light can get in (RIP –Cohen) ….. I hope one day most narcs will get cracked wide open, feel the sun, the heat, the joy and the love all around them— honestly I think these people have had more people love them than the rest of us and it is so sad to see them keep throwing away the one thing they truly want.

  12. There is a final discard. I’ve seen it many times. There is final discard when the narcissist is tired of being called on their game. When they toyed with someone that did not sleep with them and kept their head above water. There is a final discard when they see the look on their victim’s face and they know that never, ever again are they going to be able to manipulate that person. They look at their face and they know they are seen for what they are and they can’t stand it.They wait for some sort of fuel and they don’t get it. They see their former victim in their power, loving themselves, practicing healthy boundaries and completely ignoring them. So they run to somewhere where they don’t have to be seen and can forget about what that felt like. There are so many other people to manipulate, they soon drown themselves in another feast.

    They are lost. It has been so long since they have felt like a human being they do not know the meaning of hope. Underneath all that game, buried so deep that even they cannot hear it, is an abandoned child, heart rent open, waiting to be brought to the surface. But the game is like an algorithm working on it’s own, so powerful it overcomes any desire or attempt to lead an honest life. Like a crack addict, the narcissist is completely helpless to these mechanisms. And the space left in their body from the part of their soul that has left them becomes filled with the disembodied souls of the dead that could not cross over. Their will become entangled in the will of these suffering beings. Their thoughts, their emotions, their desires, all entangled. These beings, not having their own body can only want one thing until they find help crossing over. Fuel.

    Everyone suffers.

    And the narcissist secretly awaits the moment that something will make them crack so that they can feel again. Something so bad, so painful or finally, someone smarter than they are to untwist their mind or get around a corner… but this is their demise, because that is not how it works. For only the self can choose to walk the road and face one’s demons. To learn to love those demons and bring them to light. Loving and true living is a choice that no one can make for them.

    1. There is no such thing as a final discard because there is ALWAYS risk of a hoover unless you die or we die.

      The instances you describe in your first paragraph push up the Hoover Bar and make a hoover less likely (subject to the other relevant factors at the material time) but those factors you describe fade with time and thus their impact on the Hoover Bar becomes less material.

      If you think that there is a final discard, you are being affected by emotional thinking and leaving yourself vulnerable.

      1. What if you expose them as cheaters? I did that after a tumultuous 4 yr relationship. When faced with my proof he didn’t apologize- he blocked my number, FB, IG and the next day left all my belongings on my porch. I was the best supply but he enjoyed partying and texting with 25 yr old who just want to have fun. Even our dog sitter who I passed in the hallway! We are mid to late 30’s in age. I don’t get it. Years I spent apologizing for things I didn’t need to. Being discarded and begging for months to come back – now I have proof he messed up and he stabs me in the heart and walks away. I don’t think he will ever come back and I know I’ll die knowing he was never sorry and never loved me. Sorry I wasn’t good enough … f you’re reading this

    2. If the Narc is a case of “Late onset NPD”, because for more than 20 years he was the “perfect man”, he discarded you and still have contact because of kids, but the thing is, he knows I know everything because when he does something typical N, I always send him articles about NPD. The other day he was giving me the silent treatment, for example, I send him this Meme about it. Like, he knows I’m smart and have him ALL figured out. But everyone tells me he will come back, although I believe that he won’t because of me figuring him out. This makes me so confuse. I am in love with another guy but a part of me wants desperately for him to ask me back so I can say no….it’s ridiculous, I know…

  13. could the article have been revised as the shortest article ever written, with the last five words as it’s entirety, ‘There is no final discard’. 🙂

  14. Q for a friend that unfortunately also meet a N.. trying to guide her through this ordeal.
    So a few months ago they reunited but it fell apart due to his inconsistency etc. and she called him out on his lies and caused him injury. So they were on a break to heal his wounds (seriously bullshit).
    After silent treatment and crap she wrote to the N suggested that they should take a break from communicating.
    She also stated that she thought that in order to be able to be friends in the future a break from communication is good and she don’t want to become a stalker and mess up more. So she suggested that silence for two months would be great and that she believed they had something very unique and that the bond is strong. His reply was…. OK…great!
    We are not sure if that was a ‘thank god she will leave me alone and stop wanting closure’ or if that was a passive aggressive response ‘no I want your fuel … so I can continue to give you the ST while putting you on the shelf’?? He is absolutely a N and she needs to go NC but we are so puzzled on what the hell he ment. She is not blocked from communicating and he responded immediately.

    So HG or anyone… WTH did he mean? Is he injured? Pissed? Happy? is she safe from hoovers now or will there be silence? She have never coped to be quiet for more than 3 weeks until she reached out. Will he be happy if she never ever reach out again or will he ever wonder what happened to her? Silly questions but she is devastated and Im trying to help her. Her English is very bad so I was asked to translate.

    Thanks to all of you … and I’m still safe and happy again!

    1. It depends on what her position is in the fuel matrix.
      If former IPPS, he is most likely in a new golden period with a new IPPS and wants her to remain distant, so her suggestion of silence is welcomed.
      If Shelf IPPS, she is on the shelf at present and he is focussed elsewhere so again the response is welcomed. If he hoovers to take her off the shelf before two months is up, he will do so because of his sense of entitlement.

      1. Thank you HG. So the response was a genuine that is great.. and not passive aggressive? They used to be married.. and a huge fuel giver and as I was a huge money contributor.

        1. The response was he was agreeable to the suggestion as it suited him. It was not passive aggressive.

  15. My female narcissist decided it was discard time. It’s odd but I knew she was right. For me it was over. I blocked her phone and email. I’m done. Three and one half years. This woman cost me a small fortune. We traveled first class and shopped at the finest stores and ate at the best restaurants. Did I care for her? Yes I did but it was a one sided relationship. I could no longer take lack of caring. It was always about her. Yes she was beautiful and charming. We were in a point in our lives when she said she just wanted to be friends. I agreed and I told here I loved her and asked her if she ever loved me. Her answer “probably “. That wasn’t what I was hoping for. Several weeks later it was over for me but not before she made her final move. She proposed we rent an upscale apartment and live together for a time and then get married. With my narcissist it was all about her and money. After I found out she was married three times I pushed away from her. She was very secretive and she just couldn’t give. I still have some good feelings but I feel sorry for her. She will spend the rest of her life going from man to man with no live in her life. She is a great manipulator. What a waste. She has no idea what she lost in me but she just doesn’t care.

  16. one other thing related to another situation. When narcs propose FWB is that because they are already sleeping with someone else? And if so (typyically) why wouldn’t they just see if their current partner was willing to be more open sexually and talk about multiple partners? what is the benefit to triangulating and keeping a secret? in other words, is it more about power and less about sexual desires? My ex narc asked me if i was into swinging and then said she wasn’t and then asked if we could redefine our relationship to FWB so that she could date other guys. I tried to play along to see where it would go- ie. telling her that i would agree to FWB if we were exclusive but then that got me some comment like “nobody tells me what i can or can’t do with my body”. I knew we were done then. So I said no and tried to just cuddle with her to which she started devaluing me and asked me if i was a Sex Addict. I assume because i was giving her signs that i wanted her exclusively even though she was proposing something else? Later i was told by a few intuitives that she had in fact already been having sex with someone else. Will Narcs admit if confronted that they are having affairs? I also wonder if someone who has bpd or bipolar disorder can have narcissistic traits that seem like pure narcs but lack the hoovering qualities etc. She did hoover her exbf (who she claimed she didn’t have sex with) the last week we were together (that may also explain why she called ME a sex addict?)

  17. what if your ex/narc is alienating the kids against you? I still have one kid out of 4 not totally alienated. She usually does this to them when they turn 15/16. Something she lies to them about turns them against me. Any tips on getting to my youngest before this happens? I’m afraid anything i tell her will go back to her mom so I don’t see a path to prevent this. Saddened to think i will lose another child soon 🙁

    1. Please read ‘ave the Children’ – if you want advice bespoke to your situation do arrange a consultation.

  18. 12 years here. 12 years in this relationship and he has discarded me; over 30x. yes you read that right. 30. I let him back 30x. The first 15x he left me I cried, begged, got angry… the last 15 I tried to move on but then he’d pop back up… he has gone so far as to move out of state for a year. Then start talking to me and come back. We have owned a business together, had a home together (no kids) but long story short, this last time he came back to me, he wasn’t touching me intimately and this guy is into sex. Of course now he is 56 years old, so… maybe it’s his libido but I doubt it because I saw on his history he still was looking at craigslist personals; not for a “relationship” but more likely an “arrangement”. What I do not understand is why they undermine THEMSELVES. He will leave me over the slightest perceived slight against him and literally pack his items and live in his truck and quit his job and move and shampoo, rinse, repeat. I do think this time really was the final discard though, and I say that because there was no real build-up, no real fight, no “reason” other than the fact we lived like room mates he watched tv in the back room most evenings leaving me alone in the living room… things like that. I accepted him as he was and figured by giving him more freedom to just take long bike rides on his Harley and such I was providing him the existence that he liked, but there was no sweet names, no nothing. He used to tell me those niceties were for when you are “first dating” someone… Anyhow, I think it’s really over. He left 4 days ago, says he’s moving away to be around grandkids 700 miles away now… so I guess I’m on my own since we have no ties together anymore but wow where to start… no need to block him on social media or anywhere because frankly he’s not going to attempt contact – not this time – I feel in my gut he just got restless again… I think he’s a drifter in a lot of ways, and what he really would like is a sex slave relationship – it’s funny though he didn’t touch me and I look similar to what I looked like when we met so I just don’t understand it. Just 2 days before he moved out we had a decent day at home, no red flags. The only flag I can think of is that he convinced me to get a storage unit 2 weeks ago so we could flip furniture in it instead of keeping items for sale in the garage. I agreed and right away he started “innocently” putting his tools in there… then a non-related insignificant argument later that week and he had decided he’d had enough and put his Harley in there too. But I don’t think he decided to “make the move” to leave until my 17 year old daughter overheard him in the kitchen telling me that it sucks to be with me. As soon as he realized she overheard him, he took his keys, packed a bag, and was gone. Odd, isn’t it? Must have to do with ego. I mean the kids over 12 years have heard other things and arguments but this time he just left. Figured he was ready to since I guess I wasn’t very good supply anymore as even though I asked for sex and intimacy and told him he was handsome he was no longer interested in me. Given all this I feel confident it is done for good and he’s gone for good as well. Thoughts, HG? Anything?

  19. I just want to thank you HG. This is blowing my mind. I’ve been in this cycle with a NARC for a year and a half. I’m long distance and have never understood how, after the amazing seduction and closeness we established, he could be so hot and cold. He will disappear/ghost me and then reappear asking me to “whisper sweet things in his ear.” He has lovers all over the US.

    So far, I always come back and he is always there (with minimal effort). I’m going to block him but honestly he is so charismatic I keep hanging in for him to get well and be able to have a healthy attachment. I have lots and lots to lose — a beautiful family and my dignity (he’s hurt me physically). And I’m in therapy and have lots of friends and resources etc. What’s wrong with me?

  20. Mine blocked me when I ran into him, I text him to ask him where he’d be so we can stay away, he’s a cop, I do court appearances, he blocked me for asking him that. I ended up crying but told him I was going to block him back and I did just that

  21. This is one of the best articles I’ve read. I find most of them seem to lean so heavily towards the typical male narcisst – that in my case they don’t make sense.

    My narcisst gf played the victim and all the usual never took responsibility for actions, always my fault etc. Her primary concern was always her appearing the good girl etc and I always felt she’d rather not upset other people than those close to her.

    In a very quick summary after 3 years of hell I saw the light and whilst we broke up regularly – I’d had enough after presenting her with reasonably solid proof about lying etc.

    We broke up and for the first time she was wounded in a new way and blew up and to me and anybody close had something to hide. I no longer cared about what it was – I just knew she lied. Of course that lasted 4 weeks, but we get back together because it’s not 100% and I can’t believe she’d cheat and / or didn’t love me.

    This happens a second time too and on both of these occasions unlike previous breaks she seemed miles away not interested. Historically she super keen after splits. She did things with her time etc that she’d always moaned at me for. She disappears here and there. My instinct said she’s cheating or at least got something lined up. No panic if I said it wasn’t on.

    In the second spell one key point I ended with a letter after ignoring me for 2 days cause I questioned what she said. In that time things opened up and I realised she’d be lying about periods and changed her period tracker.

    My gut says she got something going in the first split with a new person or her old boss – which had always haunted me. She had deleted messages in the past and said it was because o my anger.

    If you asked me without any of this and based upon how she said “never ever cheated with anyone” and how she held this thing precious and would never want anyone to think she was as cheat – I never found firm proof – just solid periferql

    What I can’t get out my head and it’s causing me not to sleep is if she cheated. Now I know there’s no answer – but would she risk cheating or is a narcisst so devious that she’d do it with someone where there’s no risk of getting caught.

    I just don’t know. I do know she would not 100% want her public image destroyed in any way. She doesn’t seem a risk taker at all to me.

    I have ADHD, work on IT and a pretty high IQ – so tend to pick things up well and it’s not easy to hide stuff from me. But, of course it can be done. I do give people too much beniftbof the doubt too.

    I just can’t relate to this type of person. Please help offer any insight into the workings of the mind please !!! Thank you in advance

  22. Fascinating stuff! Have done a great deal of research before landing on this page, and am 100% certain I’m dealing with an extreme narcissist. I am trying to go grey stone but this person is my boss. There are days when, if she does not get what she needs, she will throw out harsh words and punishments, like changing her mind on whether or not I can take the day off, making me come in at the last minute, etc. Before I knew what I was dealing with, as a last resort, I tried to win her over with kindness. Long story short — We went to an office party and after a few drinks, ended up sharing a lot. (We are both female).

    She is feared by her team but I (openly) do not have any fear and we did go head to head once, during which she gas-lighted me and threw me for a loop, saying I took things personally, when she had just openly assaulted me verbally and I called her out on it.

    The night that we had a few drinks, I even admitted to her I am fiercely independent, do not like being manipulated or told what to do. Immediately after the party, she stopped chatting me and will not respond to my emails. (I have since stopped emailing or chatting) When I chatted her, she gave me a quick reply (something like “so what?” — and then signed off.) A week earlier, we were singing at a bar, arm in arm, laughing.

    I had noticed before, several times, that her voice will actually go several octaves lower and even sounds like another person when she is perturbed about not having successfully stolen the credit from someone else, and she gaslights constantly, saying “You missed my point,” etc.

    The entire team is afraid to face her. I’m not, but thankfully I have learned it is the worst thing I can do to confront knowing what I know about N. I can go ahead with gray stoning, but the fact is I still report to her. We all go on mute during every call when she talks, making up rules as she goes along, and we all just shake our heads. She jacks with all of our vacation time, etc.

    I also noted several times that she will parrot my exact words said to her in private when she addresses the team. During team meetings, she is the only one who speaks and often closes with “Are we clear?” When I got my promotion recently, she asked our admin not to include it on the list with the others. She stomps on any ideas people dare speak, and blatantly takes credit for any ideas that are well received by management from our group. When I turn in work that is recognized by her higher ups, she shuts it down and buries it and usually give me some chilly treatment as though I was aiming to put a hole in her ship by having simply succeeded at my goal.

    If she needs something, she quickly becomes chatty and nice, but as soon as you hand her what she is after, she goes dark again.

    At present, I am obviously in discard mode, and will try hard to stay gray. But is anyone has any advice on dealing with female-to-female employee-to-narcissistic-boss, I’m in your debt already.

  23. Hg what If a mid ranger don’t know whether or not their former IPPS is dating someone new? I blocked my ex fiancé on Facebook and my profile is private to where you can’t see my friends list or really anything with only me as my pic. I don’t usually post relationship info and we have no mutual friends so there’s no way for him to know for sure.He also doesn’t know where I live because I moved and changed jobs. If a mid ranger is unsure do you think they would assume I have dated again since it’s been 8 months or do you think he thinks I am laying on the floor hopelessly pinning for him?

    1. If the narcissist does not know whether you have someone new, most will assume that you have not owing to our sense of entitlement and magical thinking. It is also highly likely that he thinks that you are indeed pining for him as this is what we expect and demand.

  24. I was 17-19 years old. Discarded.
    I was 40-something, hoovered, discarded.
    I was 49, hoovered. At 51 I escaped. Phew.

    The longevity is no joke. We are never “free” of the chance of being hoovered. There, now errbody knows my age too. Back off if you think I was a young punk. :p

      1. Hi sniglet,

        I hope you had a nice weekend. I am feeling bad about everything and everyone I may have offended in the past. I apologize to you too sniglet, for our little spats. I feel like i have been awakened and want to transform myself for the better. I don’t want to go back to my codependent, overly sensitive self. Sad that it took a narc for me to realize how codependent I was. Anyways, better late than never! Feeling so much love towards you and everyone here!

    1. Hi TZ,

      I have been discarded several months back but now I am doing much better. I have thought alot about my behavior and realized i was very sensitive with him, and this sensitivity extrapolated to other interactions in my life, including the blog. I want to apologize for being overly sensitive with you. I feel horrible, and it disturbs me when i think about it. I hope you are progressing well on your healing journey💕
      We are all in this together!

  25. H.G. I have been toying with someone I believe to be a narcissist. And I am only doing it to learn from him. i had no expectations of a relationship and have zero feelings for him. But now I don’t want to play anymore and want to discard him. How best does a person discard a narc so that the narc won’t start a smear campaign? He is in the idealization phase and is trying his best to secure supply. And frankly, I”m sick of it.

    1. Your priority is to go no contact. In terms of smearing, see the booked ‘Smeared’ to learn more about this and what you can do to address it.

      1. Thanks for the response. NC is exactly what I did. Actually, more like ghosting.. As he had no warning. I just stopped contact and didn’t respond to any messages 🙂

  26. How about if the Narc is also drugs user for a many many years?Does it make it worst for his personality or its just different additional way to fuel himself?
    I was 5 yrs in a relationship with Narc(without knowing he is actually this kind of creature)Everything what i passed trough ,i Thought was sick personality due to heavy childhood and drugs and alcohol which were leading him behaving like that.
    One month ago i asked him to brake up,he agreed,he moved out,and few days later he introduced his new girlfriend,who has absolutely the same name as me and the same country of origin.
    He told me he does not want any contacts with me,no phone calls and no texts from me,simply to vanish,that she adores him,etc…and all his words and attitude to me speak about final discard,he behaves like i never exsisted
    We are living in the same neighborhood,he still has staff left in my apartment,he owes me money..
    I found out the he has been dating her the last 2 months before to ask him to leave and he was delighted to inform me that she has a great sex skills and money,and even Im better than her in all the aspects,he was pushed to make this choice by me

    What shall i expect from now on?

    This site helped me to find out what i was dealing with,answered a lot of WHYs in my head,im really suffering like animal,even if on a subconscious level i wanted the story to be over.

    Many thanks to HG Tudor about the knowledge shared here!

  27. N and I were together (off and on a lot) for almost 3 years. I moved out about a month ago. We contacted back a forth a few times. I have been no contact for a little over a week now. I know he has been engaging/seducing his IPSS for at least 2 months now. N rarely posted of us on FB and when he did it was at my insisting. The primary FB photo of us is still there. He also keeps the one on IG. I’m just wondering why he would leave them there while trying to crown his IPSS or sourcing alternative/new fuel.

    1. By the way, I do have him blocked on FB and every other place I can block him. I have a “ghost” account.

    2. In case he reverts to you. You appear to have escaped him and not been disengaged so you remain ‘in play’.

        1. You can never guarantee an outcome, merely bring influence to bear with regards to us. Of course there is much you can do for yourself.

      1. “In play” meaning a narc would like to resurrect the formal relationship? Why does he want to resurrect the relationship with someone he has been devaluing so she escaped? What is a difference between a victim who had been devalued and disengaged from and the victim who had been devalued and who escaped? Does the narcisst want to ressurect the formal relationship with someone who escaped him just to finish what he has started during devaluation = disengage from wthis person?

        And another question – what about the nomad narcissts? I know you hoover all of your victims no matter if she escaped or if you disengaged from her and that you don’t resurrect the formal relationship with the victim you discarded but what about the victim who escaped? Are you as a nomad willing to resurrect the formal relationship? What for?

  28. I am late as hell my apologies in advance. HG or anyone of you ladies and gents. Has a narcissist ever been nice when disengaging with someone? Is it common?

    1. We disengage in a variety of ways. Often we just disappear or stop contacting you and you only realise something is wrong when you try to contact us and you have been blocked or you see us with someone else.
      Sometimes there is a malign disengagement and in some instances it will be done in a benign manner although that is rarer.

      1. HG, so based on your writings, with the IPPS, you may disengage by simply stopping contact, while with the Shelf IPSS/DLS, not hearing from the narcissist may just mean being put on the shelf. Does this difference manifest in that with the IPPS, the narc does not say anything before disappearing while with the shelf secondary source, a comfort crumb like promise of future contact is given?

        1. It is quite common for there to be disengagement of the IPPS without you being told that the Formal Relationship is at an end. We then have nothing to do with the former IPPS unless (a) there is a magic campaign against them and/or (b) the former IPPS keeps contacting us.

          An IPSS placed on the shelf will be given comfort crumbs to ensure they remain invested in the narcissist even though they are on the shelf.

      2. Thank you HG he disappeared and after a week. I sent him a message he responded quickly. And said I did not do what he asked me to do. So he found someone else. He has blocked me only from his fb page. I can still contact him by phone messenger. He also has told me that she takes care of him and that he really respects me. To make a long story short. He likes strippers and whores. I am neither he is a very bad sex addict. HG you asked how you can tell whom viewed your fb profile. Go to the search bar. Hit any letter in the alphabet. Names will come up when you do this if you have not searched these people. It means they have viewed your profile. My ex everytime I hit his first letter in his name he pops up. I don’t look at his profile cause I am blocked. So it means he keeps viewing mine . My profile is public

      3. HG, this is where I am confused. “An IPSS placed on the shelf will be given comfort crumbs to ensure they remain invested in the narcissist even though they are on the shelf.” In the past, when the narc was with the old IPPS and he would put me on the shelf, he would send comfort crumbs from time to time in the form of emails (they were still romantic in nature not at arm’s length). The periods of complete silence were short. After he got a new IPPS, he promised not to be distant and to reach out more but then did not contact me for several months and neither did I. I then contacted him and he gave a positive brief response but at arm’s length. I then contacted him again 3 months later and we communicated for a bit. Again, he was friendly but at arm’s length (friends like). He then asked for space for him and his IPPS and promised to reach out soon. That was over 3 months ago. Nothing since then. My questions is you told me I am still on the shelf (not dis-engaged). However, you are saying the narc would give comfort crumbs to keep the shelved appliance invested in the narc. How come I am not getting comfort crumbs if I am on the shelf?

      1. Thomas— my heart breaks for the hope you are holding out. I want to believe they are not “all bad” either. I want my narc to be the exception. I want to be good enough to fix, change and help him. I want to be the reason he is a narc. I want to fix me to change him. All that and more. I do not want it to be true. That he is a narc. That it was not real and that that he is bad. It is over. I hate that. This. Everything. AND IT HURTS.

        1. I read this blog occasionally to see how far I’ve come. It also helps me to stay aware so another one doesn’t come slipping through the cracks.

          I wish to see all of you on the other side of this nightmare. I was there too. I’m here to tell you that when you find it, there is life here. You’ve seen the life of a narc. That would be your future if you chose to stay. Your mind is in a dark place right now because you went from idealized to broken repeatedly. As long as the lines of communication stay open to this person, the manipulation will continue to where you may never come out of it. He/she is continuing to condition you for future use. Listen, it is YOU that is too good for him/her. This is the only way they feel they can have adoration on their terms is to take it by force. You don’t have time for that.

          If you want a better life ahead, you have to face the pain and work through it. Let that person go. Do the work to replace all of those negative thoughts he/she has planted in your head with positive ones. Daily. Then soon, your eyes will open and it will get easier. You’ll be open for new and healthy love.

          You are free…you were all along. You just don’t know it yet. It’s a fabulous feeling to be here.

  29. H g I know my mid range ex was on and off again with the ex he had before me. Does that mean he isn’t probably a ping pong player? Are ping pong players more likely to keep hoovering even when ignored because of their want to ressurct the formalin relationship?

    1. Not necessarily. He could have been ping ponging between her and another IPPS – so she is IPPS, then disengaged and the other person becomes IPPS and back and forth between the two.
      The fact of being a ping pong narcissist is a variable that would be applicable to the Hoover Execution Criteria. Accordingly, it would lower the hoover bar as a criterion in itself but of course other factors may raise the hoover bar high so there is no execution of the hoover.

  30. ….very valuable example of how the different variables of the HEC interact with each really is a matrix structure….each particular interaction with a narcissist having its own changing structure…as the variables change depending on the fuel status…

  31. Oh they come back. The first time I dump it was 8 years ago. I didn’t just burn my bridges with it, I bombed them, scud missiled them, flattened them and then buried the dysfunctional crap in a big cesspit grave. I then armed myself with a psychology degree, boundaries as high/wide as the Great Wall, a coaching degree from Cambridge, ready for when IT returned. OHHHH And he did…..eight years later, he rocked back up for round two DING DING. I couldn’t believe my luck. There he was, my nemesis, back in the crosshairs, the big one. Someone was going to lose, and this time it wasn’t going to be me. I played him for all he was worth. Flicked him, switched him, dangled, denied, ignored and he danced like a pathetic puppet on a string and then I dropped him. He’s hiding at the minute … When he comes back and he will (I even told he would as it waved ciao ciao) he better have upped his game. Because if its the last thing I do, I will destroy him if he EVER comes near my kids, again.

  32. Hey HG, I absolutely went into overdrive with the N/S I was intimately involved with (he was leading a double life, unbeknownst to me) and I told him by text a few times that as far as I was concerned, we never existed and he never existed. I also called him a Psychopath (after googling like a crazy person and reading how he ticked all the boxes) and now it’s been over 5 years and nothing from him. Nothing. I think he knows (because I am one of many who raise narcissistic abuse awareness and post publicly a lot of times on FB) that for him to get back in touch with me (hoovering) wouldn’t work. I think both he and I are satisfied that the final discard WAS the final discard. But you state there is never a final discard. Only a disengagement. If this is the case, why would the ex N/S try to hoover again at some point, knowing that I will not respond? I mean, it seems pointless to me for him to do that. I’m big on No Contact, after all and I think he knows this. I think he knows I have learnt so much over the past 5 years to recognise a hoover. What are your thoughts?

    1. There is no guarantee you will not respond. Many people usually do, even if it is to lash out at us and that of course is still fuel.

      1. Except I am no longer on social media, he doesn’t know my new contact details or where I live, therefore I shall never respond because he cannot contact me in the first instance. He knows nothing and fortunately lives a good couple of hours away and has no reason to come into this neck of the woods. I will accept that there is never a final discard despite how apparently bad and mad we were / still are as you are the expert, but I also think I’ll be a long time dead before he may decide to seek me out again, so I would like to think I’m pretty safe.

    2. Psychopaths are different than narcissists. I was devastated by what I believe is a psychopath. I checked out Sir Tudor’s site as he goes into narcissist thinking which is closest I could get, but it’s not the same.

      Hey Sir Tudor, how about you become a psychopath and help some of us out here???

      Quora had some great comments on psychopaths yesterday, which fully described how one I was with would respond. Once psychopaths are done, they are done. I have not been hoovered. I realize it was over for him really 3 years ago, but last real contact was 2.5 years ago.

      I was able to devastate his life as I had contacts that got him arrested in a different country. Patience and timing was perfect. He is now homeless. As he left this country for another (where he again got married), he lost everything here. He probably was well-settled in other country when he got arrested and brought back. He’s not able to leave, until a few months when he is then free. But he has had to register as a sex offender.

      I am glad I sent info to his new wife about his track record. It would have arrived when he was in jail, so he couldn’t intercept it. She would know enough, but she still visits him in his homeless tent. I think he does really like her/care for her and she obviously him. But all he has put her through – and she still stays. She must be in the deception fog.

      I had hoped he’d get his life together and stop making bad decisions, constantly dating/preying. I feel sometimes that had I not done anything, he could have lived fine in other country. But there is the risk he’d be up to his dangerous ways, hurting/endangering others – in which case, he needed to get caught. Sad situation whichever way it went.

  33. This is the second time my Narc and I have broken up. He came back this second time after about 8 months. He cheated AGAIN. I found out and confronted him and the girl and he blamed me for ruining our relationship and said we will never be anything ever again and he couldn’t trust me. He never once accepted responsibility nor apologized. It has been a little over 4 days of no contact. The last time we spoke I told him to block my number and delete me and he said no he has no need to. He hasn’t asked for his key back and hasn’t given mine back, so I’m not sure if he’s going to come back.

      1. Running me down via social media. Commenting on everything, even when i blocked him, he would make a new profile so i just stopped blocking him because it was pointless. He kept begging to see me and told me he changed and he would be better. Didn’t work. And now he’s back to viewing all my social media things again. So I guess the text will be coming soon. Although he sees I’ve already moved on and started dating again

    1. Ella— The last time we spoke I told him to block my number and delete me and he said no he has no need to. He hasn’t asked for his key back and hasn’t given mine back, so I’m not sure if he’s going to come back.

      ^ the unknown variable is him. though it really is not. it is a matter of time only. how long before he comes sniffing back. BUT the known and constant variable is YOU. it can be over when you say it is over. delete when you say done. block when you decide. there really is so much power to be taken back in the narc dynamic which we do not even know we have forefeited.

      1. He’s back to viewing my social media stuff. I’ve already started dating again but I miss him because he was “home” for me. But I’m being strong and sticking to my no contact

    2. Ella, how interesting his name shows in your social media. WOW! And he’s not in your lists? I didn’t know that could happen. On Facebook, I don’t see names show when someone views videos or comments – only if they like or comment on them, and didn’t think they would know if I viewed theirs. I read that if you clear searches right after, one can’t know. Facebook claims one can’t see that info. I did know that if a name pops up to add as friend, either they’ve searched you or you them. That apparently can happen with even 1 search of your profile.

      1. I think Ella is talking about Instagram but, not the point. The fact is that he’s most likely missing you and trying to find an opportunity to make his way back in. Although, this does happen with me where she’ll randomly block or unblock me for no apparent reason. I think direct action would signify whether or not he’ll return.

        1. Yes, I meant IG and Snapchat. However; I just mailed his key back to him this morning. I didn’t want to call him/see him or anything of the sort. So he should get it within a day or so. Was that breaking the no contact?

      2. ???! – on Facebook you also get add suggestions for friends of friends and for reasons other than they looked you up.

      3. Thanks, Mess. Makes me wonder what the other reasons are, but oh well. I thought Instagram was only if they liked or commented, except stories shows who. I’ve never created a story, but maybe will now.

  34. I know I wounded my narc because I was so betrayed, hurt ,and mad. For years I knew He was living a lie and outed him to everyone that was important in his life. He said NO one had ever hurt him like I did and that he never ever wanted contacted again. I know he has the condition, has been clinically diagnosed but I felt I could handle it if he just trusted in us like I did. He treated me like a queen but the moments of his insecurities and him disengaging when he felt threatened or confrontation which I felt was simple communication drove me crazy.

    So far no Hoover’s no contact all initiated by him …..but sometimes I wonder will he ever come back and does he have any regrets.

  35. Hi, this article moved me deeply and so did the image used at the beginning. After experiencing this and seeing this photo, it could not have better represented how I feel currently. I would love to have the source of this image without the words written on it. I hope someone will be able help me. Thank you all.

    1. Grey—
      Google fallen angel.
      You may find Lucifer tho.
      And/or the narc that flung you.
      The imagery is so poignant, yes.

  36. Honestly want my N back. They are with someone else? Will they discard them at some point and come back to me. Been about 6/7 months now… They still have me blocked and friends intermittently reaching out to me by ways of a social like, the odd profile view… etc.

    1. Understandable that you do but that is just your emotional thinking conning you.

      1. Yes they will disengage from the other person.
      2. They will probably hoover you but it is not guaranteed – don’t waste your time waiting for it to happen.

      This is your opportunity to establish a proper no contact and purge the emotional infection.

    2. Thomas, when your narc gets a new boyfriend, after a few months she will try to come back to you and complain about the new boyfriend.
      Then she will do things to arouse your competitive instincts so you basically go to war with this guy.
      This competitive behavior is all she is interested in.

      If she decides she wants to go back with you, she will do the same thing to you. ie complain about you after a few months.

      1. So Brian, here’s the latest.

        When we were together, for 2 years, not a single post on social media of us together. Now that she is living the life with the new guy, there are multiple posts of them together; living the life that her and i had planned.

        I don’t see this as her disengaging with him but, more making it a firm founded relationship.

        I just don’t know where I am… Half of me is jealous and left wanting and the other half feels sick that this was our life!!!

        1. Thomas, all she’s doing is trying to hurt you – that’s part of how narcs gain supply. Good or bad, it doesn’t matter – supply is supply to them if your emotional reaction is about or due to *them*.

          Just know that what she’s showing online *is not* what’s going on. It’s all a facade – just as fake as she was to you. She’s no more in love with this poor new sap than she was with you.

          *Don’t* look at any of her social media, as all that’s going to end up doing is what she designed it for – to hurt you.

      1. I can’t handle this waiting around. I tried to move on but when I got close to someone I felt guilty. And, I know that I am conditioned this way but I would bend over backwards to make my ex fall back into my life…

      2. Mimi and Thomas, think of the hurt, instead of the imaginative love you have in mind. Maybe your love is real, but the narcs love is not. Not now, not next month, not ever. Narcs never change. You are going to be hurt over and over and over again. Go no contact, cry, forget about the narc and be happy. Do not waste years of your life to try to accomplish something that will never happen. I did this (because I knew nothing substantial about narcissism) and looking back now I want to hit myself on the head for throwing away all the best years of my life, staying in a loveless, abusive relationship with a narc, for ever trying to make it work. Honestly, if you could feel the peace of mind I have now, instead of the utter confusion, the fog, the depression, the hurt, the anxiety, you would understand what I’m saying.
        The longing you feel is a longing for a picture perfect that is in your mind, but does not exist in real life. Move on and find someone who can really love you. I wish you both the best. xx

      3. I want mine back as well. I thought mailing back his key would make me feel better but instead I feel worse. I feel lost and empty and can’t really deal with anyone else

      4. I don’t quite not what to say. I am still wanting and still waiting. To me, the random blocking and unblocking and the coterie reaching out to me all suggest that she is trying to assess the situation. It screams of her already disengaging with the new guy and testing the waters to see what level of control is left here.

        In all honesty, regardless of what has been said in most of the comments on this site, not all people with narcissistic personality disorder are bad people. And mine, there were some terrible times but regardless of that, you can still love them as human beings and even partners.

        I do still wait for my ex-GF to return to me and I know that if it does ever happen (where reality suggests it will), I can be ready for that, safe in the knowledge that I now know what I’m up against. Is there any truth in my statements or am i misleading myself, again?!

    3. “And mine, there were some terrible times but regardless of that, you can still love them as human beings…”

      Thomas, you sound like me only several years ago. I know the back and forth hurt you are feeling. But it should not hurt. Those who love you don’t make you wonder.

      You can love them, but do so from afar and with zero contact.

      HG has created a wonderful community and for whatever your reason, you have sought him out. We will be here for you, but remember that love should not ever hurt.

  37. If you were discarded then why would one come back and have sec with you when they replaced you ? Fuel in guessing….. but they have another appliance

      1. This doesn’t mean he wants me back right ? Why does he need me to if he has her for fuel and primary ?

  38. Mine had been gone a year. I finally healed and all quiet in my world.
    Then, it returns. Another text a couple of days ago. Didn’t recognize the number and asked who it was. It was him. Okay, I thought. Which one of his women was on discard THIS time? I’ve done my time. So, didn’t respond after I found out who it was.
    Our host is right about this one. They don’t leave you alone. I’m hoping you all get on the other side of this and see what parasites they really are. I pray you’ll be confident and know you don’t have to give in to them or put up with any more of their drama. I cannot tell you how peaceful it is not to react to him anymore and not even feel the need to react. After months and years of this crap, I chose to live. It is MY life. He can pop up out of the woodwork as much as he wants and each time, he’ll still get a lot of nothing from me.

    1. Amen, treat them like the invisible facade they portray. The lesser doesn’t know how to respond especially when I appear to super silly and laugh at each and every word that comes oit of his mouth. I am sure the injured beast would like to surface but, hes been warned and know its not an idle threat.

    2. Thanks for that. I have just discovered this blog and it is helping me understand the crazy behaviours. I have just been discarded so am using you guys to keep me strong.

  39. What if the N is your mother? I’m 33. I finally stood up to my mom on a few issues and set some boundaries. Of course she just turned the tables on me, said our relationship is ruined.. and refuses to speak to me. It’s only been 1.5 months.. but refusing to speak to me or her grandson especially over the holidays is BIG…

    1. Assuming she is a narcissist then :-

      1. Instigate no contact – just because this person is your mother does not exclude her from applying no contact and this will be the best outcome for you and your children ; or
      2. Minimise contact and fuel provision but be prepared to be hoovered repeatedly and smeared.

      There is much you can do to minimise the impact on you if you choose (2) but it requires discipline.

    2. I wish my mother wouldn’t speak to me, especially over the holidays!
      She also chooses not to notice when I don’t speak to her.

    3. LIndsey Might— . but refusing to speak to me or her grandson especially over the holidays is BIG…

      ^ that could ben your xmas gift. the start of nc. i mean that serious not snarky. i know the push pull of guilt et al in a narc mother dynamic. it is no win. it all feels bad. do what is best for you. LINDSEY WILL. not might. unless might is power. then yes.

  40. I am a little confused by the terminology. You said, if you are an intimate partner secondary source, you are not disengaged unless you wound them, if you don’t then they will come back and resume … what, practically speaking, is the difference for a secondary intimate partner between being shelved and disengaged from if, either way, they come back and until they do, you’re on your own? And with a primary source, if they disengage, how do they expect to be able to waltz back in – if they always come back?

      1. So if you wound they won’t come back..? Mine has but only Hoover’s…. does this mean it will never resume ?

        1. No.

          If you wound we are less likely to hoover BUT

          1. It depends on the other variables; and
          2. The effect of the wounding fades over time.

  41. What are the most common signs that a hoover is coming. I have an ex gf who I suspect as having this disorder. Our breakup was explosive, followed by an ‘I’ll change…’ hoover. I stood up for 2 weeks and then caved, i was then full out discarded and blocked from all channels.

    I do still want this person and there have since been multiple unblocks and subsequent blocks (days later) without any interaction. Now there has been an unblock whilst she is away with a ‘rival’. I don’t know whether or not this is trying to elicit some sort of a response but i need help to try to gauge the situation.

    I want to know whether I should engage, in the form of a social media activity or email but would like to gather some thoughts on what is going on here. My objective is to be back together with this person as, regardless of the N traits, i am in love and they are manageable. The initial breakup was instigated by me and now wish I could revert.


    Has now been a considerably longer time-frame but, am still seeing signs that something is coming. Now seeing someone new and can’t get this person out of my head… Her friends are still sporadically reaching out to find out about my work/life situation. Odd.

    1. Being unblocked is a reverse hoover in itself. There do not tend to be signs that a hoover is coming, apart from if you enter a sphere of influence, you have activated a Hoover Trigger and therefore there is now a possibility that a hoover will be executed against you, subject to the criteria.

      The unblock is inviting you to get in contact. You do not need to.

      If this person is a narcissist as you suspect, you do not need to engage with this person at all. Your emotional thinking is conning you into thinking you need to. It is also conning you into thinking that they are manageable.

      Her friends are proxy hoovers.

      1. What if I reversed it? Ditched an old account and have had a new one for a while. He is not blocked, he said for me to let go, move on, there was nothing between us ever anyway. Would a narc who was greatly wounded be angry that a victim has a new account and has exercised total control (he accused me of not having any of course) and had never reached out to him? I really went for massive wounding with him. Supernova mode. So I wonder when he realized I have a new account, I can’t imagine that he doesn’t not know, what would a narc feel knowing this, that I finally got control? And assuming he has no one himself anyway right now as I was told.

    2. Henry you dont want to be with this person, she will always have your rivals around to make you jealous. She will never stop playing games.
      If you were to go further with her you will just make yourself more susceptible to the games.

    3. Only you can love you. Another person can only be IN love WITH the person you are. Say that to yourself in the mirror everyday until it sinks in, make it your mantra. This person does NOT love you. you are like a coat or a pair of shoes that they use when necessary for comfort. Kicking the habit (and that is ALL they are) of them, is like kicking a crack or heroin addiction. You need to go cold turkey. Get out stay out.

      One method; think of a nice memory (perhaps when you were a child at the seaside something you treasure) get the memory and see it in your mind, remember it. Take the memory, make the picture of it small and place it in the bottom left hand corner of your brain. Like when you are watching a split screen on TV. When she comes into your mind (I assume its many times a day) recall the memory and throw it directly infront of the picture of her in your mind. Keep doing this over the days/weeks and eventually it will become a habit. If necessary tap your wrist as soon as she appears in your mind see this as a cue to bring forth the happy picture. Hopefully it will help you disconnect.

      Good luck

  42. I was with my narcissist for nearly two years and decades of being just friends. It was easy because he was in the military which made our times together precious. He would ALWAYS come back after fights and ALWAYS said he knew I was the one…..until the day I found out our entire relationship was a lie. He lied about deployment, relationship status, and everything else in between. I was hurt and against all my better senses I outed him to everyone we knew and threatened to get lawyers involved in retaliation for the mental abuse I suffered when trying to leave. I subjected him to the biggest narcissistic injury imaginable. That angered him so much so he finally let go. I know he is a narcissist because he endures work related counseling and they have told me many times. Its been nearly six months and I am surprised that he retreated so easily and so fast. He sent a email saying he would let me move on and I haven’t heard from him since. I am shocked to say the least because none of the people in our lives thought it would be this easy.

      1. Why do you say there is no such thing as n final discard but then you also say a hoover is not guaranteed?

        1. Because you might go under a bus before we can hoover you. However it is complacent and indeed naive to think there is such thing as a Final Discard.

      2. HG, I am with KT here. On the one hand, you say there is no final discard and that if the victim can be easily reached by text or email, a hoover will happen but then when I ask you how likely it is for a shelved intimate secondary source to be taken off the shelf, you say it depends on the relevant variables in the dynamic, whereby the aforementioned almost certainty all of a sudden goes down drastically when logic suggests that the likelihood of a hoover should be higher with a shelved individual than with a disengaged one, given considerations like a shelf one remains white, a disengaged one is painted black, etc. Seems very inconsistent. Sorry but that is honest. Thank you for reading!

        1. No, you are failing to understand.

          1. Former IPPS disengaged from. Narcissist has new IPPS. N has no interest in former IPPS, no malice campaign. Therefore no hoover of former IPPS during golden period for new IPPS.

          2. This Former IPPS implements no contact and moves house, changes job, comes off social media, stays away from friends of narcissist, blocks numbers and e-mails, changes number. No children together. No outstanding issues re property or money. N devalues new IPPS but her negative fuel is intermittent owing to absence and health issues for instance. No other IPSSs yet acquired. Narcissist is a Mid Range with reasonable fuel matrix. Former IPPS gave excellent fuel during golden period. Former IPPS provided residual benefit in terms of social status and money. Former IPPS remains single.

          3. There has been appearance in the mind of the narcissist about former IPPS. Therefore sixth sphere Hoover Trigger.

          4. Variables for Hoover Execution criteria and impact on Hoover Bar?

          a. moves house – raises bar
          b. changes job, – raises bar
          c. comes off social media – raises bar
          d. stays away from friends of narcissist, – raises bar
          e. blocks numbers and e-mails, changes number. – raises bar
          f. No children together – raises bar
          g. No outstanding issues re property or money.- raises bar
          h. N devalues new IPPS but her negative fuel is intermittent owing to absence and health issues for instance – lower bar
          i. No other IPSSs yet acquired – lowers bar
          j. Narcissist is a Mid Range with reasonable fuel matrix. – raises bar
          k. Former IPPS gave excellent fuel during golden period. – lowers bar
          l Former IPPS provided residual benefit in terms of social status and money. – lowers bar
          m Former IPPS remains single so far as narcissist is aware – lowers bar slightly
          n. no wounding when last interaction between narcissist and former IPPS – lowers bar

          Likelihood of narcissist attempting to execute hoover (which will mean both expending energy to try and locate the former IPPS and then applying some form of hoover) – low.

          These are the variables and obviously over time they alter.

          Being taken off the shelf means a hoover therefore it requires a Hoover Trigger and the Hoover Execution Criteria to be met (within which are the variables).

          So no, it is not a simple case of stating that a hoover is more likely to happen with a shelved individual than a disengaged one because you have to take into account lots of different variables within the HEC.

          1. No. You are incorrect. Nomad narcs return for fuel but not to resurrect the formal relationship that was in place with an IPPS. So we Hoover the Ex for fuel but don’t make the Ex a girlfriend again for example, when a nomad. Pay attention at the back!

          2. Imagine waiting around for a hoover and turns out the person is a normal moved on. One of my brothers is a normal he’s only been in 4 relationships long term one marriage. When the relationships end they end. I asked him about an ex girlfriend ” we broke up 6 months ago, I assume she’s well. Why are asking? ” My lesser Victim Narc hoovers his exes he’s on marriage #3 he father 10 kids works for the government he’s forced to pay for them 6 are grown and the others range from 4 to 15. He has to stay in touch with 3 exes die to kids but he hoovers DLS after 5 years.

        2. I gave up and left my number unblocked because every couple of months or so, he’ll text or call out of the blue from a number I don’t know with the same song and dance. Fortunately (that I know of), he hasn’t hoovered because I always ask him how a girlfriend is doing and every time, “I broke up with her 3 weeks ago.” That’s happened several times. Anyway, I encourage him to either work it out or try the dating sites again and he’ll find the right one for him. There’s gotta be someone out there for someone as fabulous as him! That always seems to upset him and I don’t hear from him for several more weeks…and then it’s repeat process. He goes away for awhile when he understands he’s not getting anything here. I don’t know how long that’s going to go on and I really don’t care. He’ll get it eventually. This supply is all tapped out. I’m a waste of his “valuable” time.

          Sorry. I am nobody’s option or part of some messed up harem. He’ll get it and I don’t care how many times a narcissist says there is no final discard. My ass.

      3. HG, thank you very much for taking the time to address my question and lack of understanding! Believe me it’s not for lack of trying. With all due respect, your extensive explanation is focused solely on the IPPS while my question pertained to a shelved intimate partner secondary source (IPSS or DLS). Obviously, the factors you raised, like children, property, etc, would not apply. So how would the analysis go with respect to a shelf intimate secondary source?

        1. The use of IPPS was by way of example, it would apply to IPSS or DLS also. Most of the HEC factors I described form that example would apply to the IPSS also so by applying them you can readily work it out.

      4. Got it! Thank you, HG! This is very helpful! I see this was presented as a framework that could be applied to each individual’s situation! Brilliant!

      5. Hahaha, pay attention at the back ROTFL

        Nomad narc, that is one I don’t know. Guess I fell asleep during that lesson!

      6. True. I escaped from abuse. Exposed him, he’s facing jail time, restraining orders, I’m cooperating with the police, he’s smeared me to kingdom come, and yet he’s STILL trying to contact me and vowed he’d be back to “win me” when the OOP is up. Insanity! I want out

  43. My husband is a diagnosed psychopath. Six months ago I caught him cheating in a six month affair. He ended it in front of me claiming to want our marriage. The girl claimed it was her decision to end it not his though I never witnessed this. Her and I continued to argue over fb for months. He refused to get involved or say any negative thing to her. Back to present she posted a screenshot of him messaging her over fb apologizing and asking for another chance!! He denies it was him he days it’s her creating fake fb pages. He them sent her a msg sleeping ugly terrible things. Now my question is why did he choose me over her when caught but tried to go back to her?? Does he love her more than me ? Does he only want me bc he csnt have her and what makes her so special??

    1. He loves neither of you. He chose you because at that moment in time it served his purposes (fuel etc) you to choose you. You are in devaluation again so you are painted “black” hence why he is hoovering her. I can provide you with far more information about this with more facts from you and you may wish to consider organising a consultation to do this.

    2. He is trying to create conflict, triangulating you two. Make you jealous to make you do more, say more, act more in love…on the other side, he is probably telling her that you are carzy, and he wishes he could end it, but you begged him to give it another shot. He is making himself the victim of you the crazy jealous GF and her the stalker mistress…It’s all designed to make it all about him, by pitting you two against each other. If you were to stop reacting, then he would push the boundaries more with the other woman, to get a reaction. Happy, Sad, Angry, all feed his need for attention.

  44. Do you guys confrom your narcs? do you accuse them of being narcs and hurting you or is it futile? I remember our recent arguments and thinks its not worth even trying…

    1. I underwent the final discard a year ago. I didn’t want to – even after eleven years of abuse and periodic discards (which were always MY fault). I still cry every single day for what I thought I had. I look back now and catch the glaring red flags that I missed. I’ve considered many times writing that letter and actually sending it. The only thing that keeps me from doing it is that I know he would LOVE it, relish it, and refer to it over and over again. The last discard I didn’t know what was happening and so I wrote him a letter pouring out my heart. What did he do? He called my college-aged daughters and laughed about how “pathetic” I was. Don’t do it!

  45. help, my ex GF is a cover Narc and projected so much onto me and I always thought I was a confident guy but she ripped that away from me. I know she was partially Codepended lik was fully because she was in a long 8 yr relationship with a guy. I have spent months if not years thinking I was a negative pit of despair and evil narc thanks to her. I havent spoken to her in 5 days since she proposed we just be friends and i spend 2 months in limbo being her FWB/clinging to hope we would get back together since she would constantly talk about running away together or having kids even though she flat out said I was not father and husband material and crushed my soul. turns out im just the empath codependent who can actually change for the better and use this as a catalyst for positive change! 🙂

    Funny thing is when we split, she forced me to have a mental break down where I was allowing the universe to guide me and i saw signs everywhere and I actually ran away from her and probably caused her ALOT OF NARC INJURY by ignoring her for weeks, because I just knew i felt bad around her and I didnt know why! I later returned to her hoping she fixed her broken self but she made it a point to get REVENG before she used the new sideline guy for jealousy and the devaluation/discard cycle. Its funny how its so predictable. im grateful i “lost my mind” because come to find out 3 months later she is a narc and had been projecting and draining me as a primary supply. I still am in shock that such a “sweet girl” could do this. I now see her for what she was. a damaged sad child looking to hurt others to feel better. explains why she works as a social worker and counselor, she can criticize others and have the attention off her. Possessed soul who couldnt accept and cope with trauma like many of us have had to???? preffered to take the road of anger and resentment to those who wronged her, either way its hard still to think she wasnt who I though she was (funny she would always tell me that…. im not who she thought she was, I always thought i was genuine and open 100% and loyal!)

    Still it hurts alot, She hoovered with the typical “help” and im going to kill myself lines at 3am and now is saying return my stuff which she left with me months ago… I am ignoring all of it. should I reply and return her things? everytime my phone buzzes my heart sinks and I dread it or get excited for it. I dont know how to act anymore. I tied to fix her thinking she was doing the same for me but it was a lie. well, glad to have found this page! thanks

    1. Hello Freysha,

      1. Return the items but do so through the post or a third person – do not hand them over yourself.
      2. Block her number and change your number. You have no need to engage with her.

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