Understanding the Fuel Matrix



All narcissists have fuel matrices and you need to understand where you fit into that fuel matrix and how that particular matrix functions as part of protecting yourself.

This Logic Bulletin takes you through :-

1. The Fuel Matrices of all sub schools of narcissist. This includes updated and expanded information about the Upper Lesser Type A and Upper Lesser Type B Narcissists, plus the Middle Mid Range Type A and Type B Narcissists.

2. What the Fuel Matrices look like, their size, the nature of the matrices and who sits in them.

3. How the relevant narcissist of each sub school relies on the individuals in the Fuel Matrix

4. What the Virtual Fuel Matrix is and how it operates.

5. How a Long Distance Appliance fits into it the narcissist fuel matrix and how that functions.

6. Detailed descriptions of each sub-school of narcissist, their behaviours and actions to increase your understanding of the different types of narcissist. This is a comprehensive expansion which will help you understand a lot more about the way different sub schools of narcissist operate.

A fascinating and educational exploration of the fuel matrix and the interaction between you and the narcissist, this is essential to know how the narcissist behaves so you can ensure your No Contact Regime is as effective as possible. It is also advanced reading for those who feel they are well-acquainted with the narcissistic dynamic from their existing reading and consultations.

This extensive Logic Bulletin is available at just US $ 10 and is a bulletin you will read several times and refer to often and can be obtained here

93 thoughts on “Understanding the Fuel Matrix

  1. Fagan Alexandra says:

    Hi Hg, I was a a Ipss who he tried to promote several times.. but learned from this site and slowly moved away.I wanted to ask you why he started to say I was guarded and not very emotional anymore. ( which was in fact him) but true as I did pull away.The one thing that always use to upset me was if we spent the night together he would be distant and cold next morning. I learned to stop reacting but he rampted it up. It was what made me see how calculated he was. can you tell me what he was trying to achieve as it was what made me walk away in the end so he lost out .many thanks

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Fagan, well done for applying the work here. He is distant and cold owing to his lack of emotional empathy and he had asserted control by spending the night with you. Having obtained control, he does not continue to be “warm” to you (which is part of the manipulation) and his behaviour was demonstrating the lack of EE and his rejection of intimacy. When you lessened your reactions, you threatened his control and therefore he “ramped it up” in order to assert more control over you. If you would like detailed in put with regard to this, do organise a consultation.

  2. Lauren says:

    Hi HG,

    1. Regarding interactions with Shelf IPSS, can you elaborate on some of the avoidant behaviors that a MMRN does?

    2. Regarding interactions with Shelf IPSS, can you elaborate on some of the tantrum behaviors that LMRN do?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Noted for future work.

  3. J says:

    Does the MMRN hoover and how? Amazing article, by the way!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello J, glad you liked it. Yes the MMRN does hoover. In a nutshell for the purposes of the question being here, if it is a benign hoover, he is most likely to do so through messages, e-mails, sending flowers, dispatching a Lieutenant to you and such like. This is done because it is a ‘toe in the water’ approach because there remains a fear of rejection and this step is taken as a ‘bridging’ approach to establish that the victim is well disposed to the narcissist. If so, the hoovering will increase and be in person in due course. Essentially the content of the hoovers will be self-pity (I cannot live without you), blame-shifting (how could you do this to us) and/or false promises/contrition (I know I did some bad things but I can change).

      1. J says:

        Wow, thanks for the detailed response!!!

  4. Anonymous says:

    It’s so frustrating to me that I can’t figure out what he is. I feel like knowing it for sure holds some key, or the major piece to the puzzle. Maybe he IS an Upper Mid-Range. Huge family, but extended, he has no siblings. Spends every Christmas with them in a mansion and loves it. No friends, the people he knows are basically all either through his (ex-)wife, his job or some sleazy online dating site.
    He is a business owner, and I remember when he decided to leave his company I even asked “won’t you miss those people”. I guess what I was really wondering was “what about your fuel?”.
    The thing that throws me off is he has no fury. He has never been physically violent, has shouted at me exactly once in four years, he doesn’t even get angry, or doesn’t show it in the way other people do. He does a lot of silent treatment, not in the beginning, but towards the end it was his hobby.

    1. Wendy says:

      This post is so very enlightening. My soon to be ex is a mid mid range. It all makes sense. He is doing a benign hoover at the moment and I am in my logic mind adopting gray rock. I nearly had a nervous breakdown after the 7 months of cruelty which coincided with his love bombing his new IPPS. The grand discard was particularly cruel but logical. I initiated everything by refusing to engage and ignoring him. I also called him out on his behavior in a cold way. I see now that he had to find a new supply, punish and then discard. He moved in with her 4 days after we broke up. He is king of the silent treatment, triangulation, manipulation, disappearing act and passive aggressive behavior. I think that I am a super empath. Did I do a super nova? HG you are a wonderful writer who is doing a great service for those of us who have been victimized. I feel empowered. Thank you.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Thank you for your comments.

        If you wish to establish what type of empath you are, use the Empath Detector Consultation.

        From the brief details provided, my preliminary view is that you did not go supernova.

  5. Shannon says:

    Holy crap, my soon-to-be ex husband is definitely at LMRN. once I moved out, he sought his fuel through his family even though not 2 months ago he dogged them all out and professed his disdain for them all. He literally makes me sick.

  6. ajo says:


    You state that they use co-workers as IPSS, however I was the IPPS and one of his co-workers was the IPSS and has now moved into my old position as IPPS. Why on earth would a narc shit where they eat? Do they not think ahead to having to work with this person long term after devaluing? Would this be the work of a lesser mid ranger? Although upon reading he seems like a mid mid ranger.

  7. Stephanie Farlow says:

    Here is the difference in my opinion,from dealing with a lesser as opposed to an UMRN which I have long term relationship with both. I owned real estate with one ,lived with him and am still dealing with him because we have two children. This is the lesser. I lost everything I owned because of him. He continued to keep me in a prison even after I moved away. He held child support over my head to control me etc. I finally got it and I was free. I got my life together with the speed of light after that only to have an Upper come in and take that away. My point is that losing material things and being abused by a lesser can be devastating but in no way ,shape, form did it even come close to the soul crushing devastation that HE caused me. NOT EVEN CLOSE. The higher the intelligence , the worse abuse and manipulation suffered. Thank God I am who and what I am because I should be dead. Really. Those Greater and Upper Mid Range fucker’s! !! This is why when I started using my own intelligence against him….he was freaking. I could go on his Facebook page and or see a girl in public and be like ok ….you’re sleeping with her,her,her,her. I realize now he loved the challenge of that but it still pissed him off. It is why he would constantly call me stupid because I was the opposite of it. I figured out what he was….How stupid could I have been.

  8. E. B. says:

    Thank you for these three articles with a detailed description about Lessers, Mid-Rangers and Greaters. I think my mother was a LMRN of the Victim cadre. No hobbies, no interests, no real friends, only family members, relatives, some acquaintances and tertiary sources.

    She used to turn my father against me first thing in the morning while both of them were having breakfast. After that she would call her mother and later another relative of hers every single day of the week, unless they visited. Her monologues were at least one hour long and they were mainly about me (scapegoat). She used to spend at least two hours speaking badly of me every single day of the week. She would also call acquaintances to tell them lies about me. I used to leave the house early in the morning and come back late in the evening after 9.30 pm so I hardly had any interaction with her except for greeting her or for taking care of her when she was ill at home/hospital. When I left for work early in the morning, she was usually on the phone talking about me and speaking loud enough so that I could hear her. She referred to me as “That one”.
    She did not work outside the home and had people to clean the house and buy the groceries. They were not supposed to clean or do anything for me, though. I had to do all my laundry, clean my room and so on from an early age.

    This said, there wasn’t really any reason for her to complain about me. I used to ignore her spiteful words completely because telling her to stop would only make things worse. In my own opinion, she had a sad, empty, shallow life, indeed.

    I would like to ask you a question, HG. After reading your articles, I think that although I did not give my LMRN Victim mother any fuel, her empty shallow life consisted in **getting fuel*** every single day of the week every time she spoke for hours to her mother, to her relative and also to her acquaintances, smearing me and playing the victim role. Is this correct? This is how she occupied her time.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      That would appear to be an accurate summary albeit you probably did provide fuel without realising it at times.

      1. E. B. says:

        I really appreciate your time and help very much. Thank you so much, HG! One of my siblings used to tell me that sometimes I looked sad, although I did not notice it myself. This could have been her fuel sometimes.

        Although at that time I had not heard anything about dysfunctional families dynamics and narcissism, I somehow *knew* that if I cut off all contact with her and she did not have anyone new to project her hate onto, she would die. This happened in less than 6 weeks after I moved abroad and she was not able to contact me for different reasons. I felt relief when she passed away.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

    2. Gabrielle says:

      Holy shit, mine too! At least from my perception anyway. Huge social media following but always so lonely. Was yours religious as well? Oh the piano playing church boy facade!!!!! Can do no wrong in the eyes of everyone….

      1. Hurt says:

        No actually not religious. I think he is jealous of jesus lol. He always makes fun of religion and jesus. But if asked by people about jesus he will say he is religious but will quickly steer the conversation in a different direction. He is always busy with some community project to uplift the poor and he makes sure to arrange that the media is there #hilarious

  9. Jenna says:

    My ex seems to be an UMRN because he has a huge social circle. He goes silent often, and utilizes pity plays when he’s depressed.

    1. Gabrielle says:

      We were just discussing the “troubled soul” thing yesterday.

      And a reply to Jenna….you’ve described mine as well. Big social circle, silence and pity plays!

      1. Hurt says:

        Mine also. Big social circle but no close friends. He only use these people for favours. These are people who look up to him so much and always try to get his approval. More like a group of followers.

      2. Jenna says:

        So many similarities in mid-rangers! 🙆

  10. TryingtoEscape says:

    Another Excellent article HG!! I would like to get your opinion on which type you think he mist likely is from everything I have told you about “him” in all of our phone consultations.
    Thank you in advance & looking forward to our next phone consultation!

    1. TryingtoEscape says:

      Oops “most” likely is

    2. HG Tudor says:

      I shall duly advise in that respect – you need to book it by the way!

  11. Victoria says:

    You have described my ex Angelo verbatim! Being an UMRN with some characteristic of the MMRN (Pity plays, victim, coward, envious, secretive, etc)the rest in 100% as you described-UNBELIEVABLE-I am filled with goose bumps! Even the fact that 2 brothers do not speak to him and he has gotten waiters fired.
    You mentioned: “He relies extensively on the IPPS as other narcissists do, but his reliance is not as great as the other schools and divisions touch on.” Could you give me an example? Wow, I feel this article was written especially for me! Thank you Sir. I only wish I could have spared myself the last 10 years but I would not have sought you out then, I was too besotted by love; or so I thought.

  12. Gabrielle says:

    Wow. I believe I am dealing with an MMRN about 95% spot on, word for word! The only things I have not been able to apply are the “hitting/spitting/slapping” fury and the gossiping. BUT then again we were LDR so this is something I would probably see if I interacted with him in everyday life rather than the majority of phone/text/online etc. But other than that I think I have finally made sense of something on this website. That is not to say your other entries have not been good, they have been good, but based on what I read earlier I could not really classify him but with your other articles and additional groups/subgroups being discussed in more detail, things are slowly starting to make sense now.

    Holy crap about “always behaving politely and respectfully”. That is so eerily on point. I lost count of the times he used to tell me “I am the nicest guy you will ever meet”. “I understand this or that more than anyone you’ll ever know”. His stories were always charming and witty. “I am a nice guy but I need my coffee!”

    The sources of fuel from the workplace? Eerily accurate again! That is where he met the other IPPS he was dabbling with on the side behind his wife’s back. He had a double life with her for several years before getting caught.

    Boss and coworkers sang his praises all the time as the that “nicest guy”. He is active in the church too. I can go on and on. Almost that entire paragraph is so specific to how he is.

    I have just two follow-up question if you do not mind.

    #1. Will you ever do an article in regard to sex and all these different groups and subgroups of Narcissist? I finished your Sex book and I found that some of it applied but a lot of it did not. I was not really able to classify him in any of the types of Narcissist discussed in the book. He was too much of a sexual monster to classify in the lower types but he also did not fit in the higher types either. Your article here was able to narrow it down more accurately. I hope my inquiry makes sense.

    And….#2. You say an LMRN does not know what he is. In your experience, do you find that an MMRN knows what he is?

    Thank you for your continued perspective, it continues to help me very much.

  13. Jen says:

    does a narcissist always stay in the same school / cadre or is it possible for him to change?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Stays in the same.

      1. Gabrielle says:

        Can they be applied to more than one category? For example can a middle range be cerebral but also victim as well? I find that as I read more he seems to fall under both (cerebral for the intelligence, big words, sexual behavior, etc.) but victim as well (the pitying nonsense). Or do they just get applied to whichever category they have the most in common with? I hope you understand what I am trying to ask. Thank you much!

        1. KT says:

          Is he not an elite then?

  14. Hurt says:

    Hi HG. Which group of midranger is the one who uses excessive gaslighting and triangulation? Also lies a lot but not convincingly? Insists on his way or the highway?

  15. The Bride says:

    Excellent piece once again. LMRN with some tendencies of MMRN in my case. Very helpful. Thank you!

  16. Brian says:

    Do Mid-Range Narcissists often become lieutenants?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      They can do Brian, yes.

      1. Brian says:

        Thanks, I have seen them switch opinions on a dime, depending on who they are with.

        1. Jenna says:

          Is that true HG? As brian said, do narcs switch opinions depending on who they are with?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Yes because if it serves the need for fuel in such a situation then that will be done.

          2. Jenna says:

            HG, I didn’t know that! But do you have your own opinion hidden inside? Or do you not have your own opinion due to having an under-defined sense of self?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            I have my opinions.

          4. Jenna says:

            If you have your own interests, your own hobbies, your own preferences, your own opinions, why do you say there is a void? Not having certain emotions is just part of an entire personality. It is not everything HG. I would like to say there is not so much of a void as you think.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            There is. I know it is there.

          6. Jenna says:

            I still believe the void is not as hollow as you think HG. But matrinarc never allowed you to recognize your inner self. That’s why you believe what you believe. Damn matrinarc! 😠

  17. screwyoudick says:

    Pity, sympathy and empathy are major parts of OUR tool box, so it becomes essential to separate that from tolerating intentional destruction as well as if not more important – self-destruction. There isn’t anything worse than a liar, a cheat and a deceitful fake person. I can honestly say that I now believe nothing unless I have actually witnessed it myself. Sad. What I pity is his lack of awareness and how his miserable life will never change in the absence of that awareness.

  18. penny dropped says:

    I knew I was going to enjoy this one! From reading other articles of yours I already had him pinned ages ago as a mid-ranger, now reading this this it’s crystal clear to me he’s a middle-mid. Every word of it is eerily accurate!

    Having been here for around 6 months, I often notice how other people’s posts could have been written by me!! (waves at ninocturnal 😉 )

    You bring wonderful clarity of thought, and validation, and vindication to me and my thoughts as I try and unscramble my brain. I’m so grateful for the level of understanding that reading your works has given to me. I think I’d have been floundering around in that emotional sea a lot more without you.

    Thanks HG.

  19. As I was reading these three levels of Mid range I immediately identified all three of them in my life. Each fits the respective description like a glove, although all three are women.

  20. Broken says:

    Once again spot on! My only question is the lack of rage against me. I know prior women saw it but I am much stronger and never used harsh words nor said nasty things while angry. I guess that kept him calm. Only twice in all those years I got two very degrading sentences thrown at me. I’ll keep on educating myself here. Caught up in some anger again yesterday but feel more balanced after reading more. No revenge or anger will heal us … only knowledge and moving forward. Thank you!

    1. Gabrielle says:

      I did not deal with any “rage” either. Even when he said shit to me like “You need medication, you need a therapist, you are crazy” and blamed me and so on, he did it in his “nice guy” persona. Acted like he was concerned and was giving me advice, helping me. All manipulation but done so with politeness and charm. He was quite adamant in telling me how he was such a nice guy too and that he “never loses his shit” and the few times he does he is always in private. Of course at the time all this was going on I thought nothing of that comment. But now whenever I remember something he said to me a light goes off in my head of “well damn! That makes sense now!”

      One of the many questions I had was, do certain people not see the rage? For example me, I was LD, dirty secret, toy on the shelf. I probably see/saw way less than his wife did. Do you know what I mean?

  21. Stephanie says:

    Thank you for this, HG, it explains a lot. Think I’m mostly dealing with an LMRN. Lucky me! Oh, the sound of silence.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  22. Mel says:

    Awesome info! HG, can a umrn rage, yell, threaten, be married but carry on multiple long-term affairs, very popular and well liked in the community, generous for the sake of appearance and yet selfish, to name a few, or does this sound like one of the other mid-ranges? Btw, he acknowledged having ability to switch love on and off, also admitted to how easy it is to use psychology to manipulate others…

    1. Gabrielle says:

      Were we caught up with the same guy? This is where I am at. Everything I read classified as MMRN to me (a detailed consult pointed to UMRN)….but the being married, long-term affairs (my predecessor was with him for 18 months supposedly), church guy (does music there) as well as community theater, well liked in the community as well, etc. He also was very manipulative in terms of psychology as well.

  23. Windstorm says:

    This was very helpful for me as well, HG. I have been trying for nearly 2 years to place one of mine who hoovered me after 34 years. Everything in the middle mid-range is totally him! I wonder if this type often waits many years to hoover? Seems likely to fit their MO. He was just not good enough in so many ways, I just couldn’t put up with him and cut him off. Probably will never hear from him again. I’ll be dead before he gets up the courage to try hoovering again! 😝

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  24. Insatiable Learner says:

    HG, if a narcissist has a good job but not an overly prominent one, is not ambitious professionally, appeals to pity/ plays victim, projects, is charming enough and attractive (he is somatic), is polite, appears to have good relationship with his family, is he likely a middle mid-ranger (rather than an upper mid-ranger)? Thank you!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I agree.

  25. Nicnocturnal says:

    I have been unsure what category he belonged to, being new here and still processing it all. Definitely a MMRN, especially the blame-shifting, projection, pity plays and high sensitivity levels. And the envy, my god, he doesn’t just have a chip on his shoulder, he has a whole bloody plateful 😀

    I’ve been reading this site for less than a week and already feel that I know far more about him now than I ever did whilst I was with him. How sad is that? I’m far from over him and what he’s done, but at least now I have some understanding about what it is I’m actually recovering from. Of course, in his neurotic hate-filled mind it’s all my fault but after reading your posts I no longer feel anger or hate him back. I feel compassion for his burden and the dark and lonely emptiness within him but my empathy has been dwarfed by the understanding that first and foremost I will now always need to protect myself from who he is. This site is the reason for that. It is both invaluable and utterly fascinating. Thanks.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Welcome on board nicnocturnal

      1. Nicnocturnal says:

        Through reading this blog, my critical thinking has made a much awaited comeback. I am no longer overwhelmed with unanswered questions, and am now clinical and dispassionate instead (well, mostly 😉). Thank you for your candour and honesty sir. It is appreciated.

    2. Victoria says:

      Like you I was full of questions about my relationship with my ex-doing the cycle for 10+ years until my final discard in December. I found this site and have read 18 of HG’s books on kindle from Amazon. I started with “Manipulation” and gone on from there. His books and this blog have changed my life-I have not responded to 3 hoovers (when they try and contact you) and am keeping NO CONTACT in place-which is something I could not do before finding HG. Thanks to his help and all the material he provides to us victims I am starting to finally feel better after almost 3 months. I highly recommend you read his books because although this site is wonderful and I have his articles emailed to me daily, the books are more detailed and deal with so many intricate topics.
      Welcome aboard!

      1. Nicnocturnal says:

        Thanks Victoria 😀 I have downloaded a few of the books to my kindle app. They make for interesting reading indeed.

        I had an inkling he was a narcissist before we separated. It was only when I found this site after he dumped me that my worst fears were confirmed.

        I had to remain in contact as he had my furniture and possessions. He was truly despicable whenever we texted, and was posting vitriol on Facebook for all to see. He even hacked my messager app and took photos of my conversations. Yet all the while he’s still claiming he’s the victim. Haha.

        I’ve blocked him from my phone and from FB. I’ve only told a handful of trusted friends what really happened and most of our mutual friends have been told that I’m moving on and that I don’t want to involve them in our private business, thus not providing him with any fuel whatsoever. He has a large following on Facebook and they are quite welcome to his histrionics, hatred and immensely boring self-pity!

        This site has been largely responsible for my newly found determination to utterly rid him out of my life. I’m glad you have found it equally enlightening and it’s allowed you to strengthen your resolve accordingly. It’s a huge step to take when you’re mentally worn down from having to interact with them and they are constantly denigrating your character to everyone. Well done and good luck x

      2. EscapeArtista says:

        Victoria, I have maintained no contact for one month now- same as you I could not stay away before finding this blog, and also I now understand him (UMRN) so much more after a week of this blog than knowing him for over 8 years and dating him (shelf IPSS) for 2. I still don’t feel much better yet, but at least the anxiety has subsided (slightly, at times.) So after 3 months you felt better? Two more months to go then! Hopeful…

        1. Stephanie Farlow says:

          Same here . Shelf IPSS and he is also UMRN. I will never identify with being that again and will never be that again. No doubt he will probably try to put me backcto IPPS. He can try all he wants. Not happening.

          1. EscapeArtista says:

            Shocking to realize, isn’t it? That we were living on a shelf? Mine did a pretty good job at making it seem like women were just not at the top of his priority list – as if he was really into me but very busy with work and his son. Until he finally let it “slip,” in a way, that he is constantly pursuing other women, which is why he only had such limited time for me. I was never the IPPS with him (although I’ve had more serious relationships with other narcs) which is also shocking to think he probably had a IPPS this whole time and seeing me behind her back?! Actually I could see him being one of the UMRN that has a three or more different IPSS’s and refuse to commit to any of them. Not only am I insulted that I was given this “title” as shelf IPSS, I’m so angry at myself for accepting it as long as I did.

          2. Stephanie Farlow says:

            Well here is a cluster Fuck for you. 20 years ago I started out as his IPSS because he had a live in girl at the time. I now realize he was probably going to promote me to primary as him and his girl were having issues at that point. But back then I had zero patience even as much as he had an affect on me. I ended up with his friend,also a Narc but a lesser. I had 2 children with him but always kept in touch and had a close relationship with him. I never cheated on my ex with him but came close a couple times. Then 4 years ago I was long done with my ex and he made me primary source. Then moved me around to secondary and then primary again then shelf. What a horrible existence. Now if I could stop wanting to murder him….I would be good. Lol All of the healing I did and ultimately it was HG and counseling with him to get ill at the thought of him. I couldn’t even get through the Sex and the Narcissist book without wanting to vomit . Happy Healing.

  26. DJ says:

    Mardy arse. Ha

  27. Kathy says:

    Great article HG. As always, incredibly helpful. Can you please tell me, do the MMRN and the UMRN know what they are?

    Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you. No, they do not.

      1. amsodone says:

        How did you become aware you were Narc, and then a Greater HG? Do most Greaters arrive at that juncture or certain point in the same way? Why can’t mids and lessers figure it out? Cognitive, lack of self awareness? Thank you

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Information conveyed to me by a former girlfriend. I read further after what she told me. So it was a combination of being told and then increased self-awareness which is applicable for our school.
          Lesser and Mid-Range do not have the cognitive function and they are created in a way which means that their defence mechanisms are such that they cannot know what they are.

          1. Stephanie Farlow says:

            Hello HG , So do you think an UMRN has the emotional capacity to know what he is ? He has the intelligence but I honestly cannot say with any certainty. Thoughts ?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            No Stephanie, he is aware of how something often does not feel right, he is aware of what he does hurts people, but he does not own any responsibility and would reject any suggestion of being a narcissist. He would be more likely to use his behaviours as evidence of being a “troubled soul” in order to milk sympathy from a victim and continue to manipulate that person.

          3. Stephanie Farlow says:

            Thank you HG. He always said after watching the American Series “The Mentalist ” that he finally figured himself out. In the show the main character who was a mentalist worked as a consultant with law enforcement using his skills to solve crimes. An atonement for past crimes of using his skills to earn money as a psychic which ultimately led to the brutal murder of his wife and little girl. He said Patrick Jane was like him because he too used his skills for bad. I asked what that was often and finally he said ” well to seduce woman of course.” Patrick Jane my ass !!!

          4. Jenna says:

            But narcs are “troubled souls”, so why what’s wrong if we offer them sympathy? They have most likely suffered childhood abuse. How is this manipulation on the narc’s end to want sympathy? I think it’s ok.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Because it is a manipulation to cause you to provide fuel and remain bound to the individual narcissist, it is done for self-serving reasons. Again, you are falling victim to his manipulation by thinking it is okay to continue to engage with him.

          6. EscapeArtista says:

            So before you knew what you were, which school were you in? still a greater but just unaware? So would that mean there are greaters who don’t know what they are yet? Would it not then be okay to tell them?

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Yes I was a Greater – I had an awareness of what I was doing, I did not have the label, EscapeArtista.

          8. amsodone says:

            HG, your comment made (well truth is all your comments really), much sense. I believe it is a level of awareness. I recall reading just today from another of your blogs that Greaters will have more (or appearance of increased) “cognitive empathy”. I have a few other projects, however would like to email you at some point to get your expert opinion take, if ok. thanks

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Be my guest Amsodone.

      2. AME says:

        So from their perception without the awareness that they are Narcissist, they would probably not identify what they do as trying to obtain fuel, how would they perceive their actions?

  28. Insatiable Learner says:

    This is brilliant, HG! Outstanding read! Could you please elaborate on: “the MMRN is careful to keep IPPS and IPSSs very separate”? I think I was involved with MMRN as an IPSS. He was married. I knew about the wife (the “crazy abuser”) but she obviously did not about me. Thank you!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Maintenance of the facade.

  29. Star says:

    Very good explanations HG. Funny when I see it clearly in black in white everything resonates so clearly with me as to who he was. It also makes me wonder why at the time I spent so much time overcompensating, walking on eggshells, trying to rearrange the world and everything in it in hopes of pleasing him. The truth is he gave very little back financially, emotionally , even mentally.I guess truthfully.. he gave nothing back unless it benefited him. But still I wonder why when I had so much good in my life, so much love, an amazing career… why I actually let him into my life and almost destroy it.. especially when I knew who he was fairly early on and was educated enough to see what was right in front of me.😏Thank you HG

    1. Victoria says:

      I agree with your sentiments exactly! I have asked myself that questions since learning the facts from HG. I can see staying on with a Greater but why with a MMRN or UMRN-they offer very little back.

    2. horseyak says:

      The answer to that is that you let your habitual subconscious patterns run the show, because the intellectual part of you thought it was so smart and in control you could handle him or cope with his bullshit. The fact is we must always fight against these old patterns which do nothing more than allow ourselves to be degraded over and over again. It’s an extremely hard pattern to drop because the mind always wants to follow what’s deeply ingrained emotionally as a behavior.

  30. AME says:


    Would number 3 initially be one of the hardest to identify?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      As a narc or as to school and division?

      1. AME says:

        As a narcissist?

  31. AME says:

    Thank you. Although all bring about a array of introspection and knowledge, this added additional insight that would not be seen in any textbook.

  32. Stephanie Farlow says:

    So spot on UMRN. He definitely loved playing people against each other. Definitely made many enemies at work and had long standing friends that sometimes get thrown out of the circle for a bit.

  33. Excellent Extensive Explanation. Very nice. Thank you for providing it and part one as well, HG.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

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