Imagine Greater


Image result for surreal consuming world

You put yourselves into the position of others. We put others into ourselves. You do it as a matter of choice in order to fulfil one of the roles you see for yourselves. Admittedly, you are struck by a considerable compulsion but you still retain the ability to decide if you will do so. We do not. We must do it. We have no choice if we wish to survive. I would invite you to exercise that ability of yours.

Imagine being wounded by the words and actions of others. Imagine that injurious sensation arising because of the deliberate and treacherous behaviour of someone who we have come to rely on. From minion to colleague, from friend to lover, the slight that is occasioned by them stings, hurts and pains. Imagine suffering that agony even if the transgressor claims not to have intended such injury and pleads innocence of all wrongdoing. Imagine that you recognise that they are right in their protestation but it still does not take away what they have done.

Imagine being of ability, brilliance and talent yet within an instant being laid low by the turn of the back or the failure of acknowledgement. Imagine being beholden to such a tortuous response and hating being chained in this way. Imagine the desire to rail against the offender, mocking them for their shortcomings, their pale comparison and diminished abilities yet that same pathetic specimen has the ability to wound in such a grievous manner. Imagine the shame of despising that individual for their behaviour yet knowing that in their hands they hold such a power. Imagine those moments of genuine horror when it is contemplated that if that competitor only realised what they could truly do and that the consignment to oblivion might be moments away.

Imagine the anguish of knowing that your well-being and capacity to function is reliant on a whole host of others who have no inkling as to the part they play. Imagine how such ignorance is regarded as a blessing and that each and every day, thanks is given that they remain shrouded in such ignorance for if they became armed with knowledge, what destruction they might wreak. Imagine knowing you are chained to the one thing that generates such contempt and bilious hatred, the need to strain against those binding chains until they split, rupture and fall away with the arrival of another. Imagine the hope, the expectation and the desire for the new arrival to prove to be the saviour. Imagine always searching for that one true acolyte that will remove the ills, eradicate the risk of annihilation and instead will prevent the necessity of the imposition of those heavy oh so heavy chains. Imagine the fervent endeavour to acquire that new arrival and the sense of delicious anticipation as they begin to function in accordance with the expected and hoped for desire.

Imagine the soaring power that arises from this saviour, the promised one, the perfect one. Imagine that sense of surging, blazing power, the sweeping majesty of knowing that the needs are now catered for, that all is and will be well, that function and form can rely on this spectacular provision. Imagine the possibilities as being super-charged from this significant, this most significant other and that worlds will collide, empires will rise and the intended endless dynasty will be created.

Imagine the horror, the disappointment, the envy and the fury as that perfect one turns out to be a seditious charlatan who has lied, conned and connived. Imagine the incandescent rage that seeks escape. Imagine knowing of the consequences of such treachery and the reckless application of such blind fury. Imagine knowing that control must be exerted in order to preserve so much that has been built. Imagine straining to keep the beast within its confined place, the shackles so perfectly formed and seemingly impervious to weakness or fragility that now appear weak, rusted and not fit for purpose. Imagine the contemplation of becoming nothing. Imagine that which you wish the world to see being steadily dismantled and by a traitor’s hand. Imagine the sense of injustice, unfairness and bitterness to be undone by the very thing which promised the ultimate salvation. Imagine hearing that craven whisper that signifies that which should not be entertained or occasioned. Imagine the icy terror of that mocking, lisping voice and the frantic need to silence it. Imagine the whirlwind of necessity to rebuild, to acquire and to conquer once again. Imagine the Herculean effort required to reassert one’s place in this cruel and feckless world.

Imagine in such times of being reminded of what once was and what you swore would never be again. That which you have sought to bury deep and keep buried, locked away, hidden and rarely contemplated. Imagine the tormentors that come like shades to pull and drag towards that time again. That time which ought to have been banished yet still somehow rises time and time again. Imagine trying to bury it dead but knowing it will not allow this and instead when the obscene and scandalous plans of our opponents, our competitors and our enemies weaken that which ought not be seen as weak, that the corpse breathes once again and seeks to rise, its fetid words travelling from near-forgotten times to resurrect them and bring us down.

Imagine striking out left, right and centre in order to bring control and order back. Imagine that it can only be from the external chaos that order is enforced within and that the suffering of others is the glue, the mortar and the binding which creates that prison once more. Imagine reliance on the agony and suffering to re-build and re-create so that the voice is silenced and decorum established once more.

Imagine that whirring mind which must always assess, evaluate and calculate. Planning, plotting and scheming. A marvellous frenzied activity which devises and develops in order to always drive forward. Imagine knowing that stillness is not an option. Imagine the knowledge that taking such a step would only result in that slow descent and instead momentum is required at all times, onwards, upwards, forwards with never a backward glance, a moment of retrospect or the time to pause and consider. Always consuming, always extracting, always gathering, garnering, purloining, taking, sucking, draining, hunting, claiming, conquering. A ceaseless behemoth that draws the light from stars, the good from the benevolent, the love from the decent and the soul from everything. Imagine that and so, so much more.

Can you imagine it?

Can you be it.

I can.

I have to.

305 thoughts on “Imagine Greater

  1. superxena says:

    Hello HG!

    Something that I have thought asking you many,many times before on our audio consultations,but I had always left it at last and I had never had time for asking. We always talk about more interesting things!
    Can you help me with this one: how comes my ex Greater Somatic liked always to cuddle and spooning ? Not just on the Golden Period but all the time? I thought you said that you do not like intimate nearness? And he always HAD to hold my hand and embrace me at home and specially when we were outside! Sometimes it felt that it was very important for him to ” mark his territory” as “male animals do”? He squeezed my hand even harder ( almost painful) when another man was looking at me. This happened all the time during the 6 years with him.
    Can you help me finding some logic in this?

    Some other thing that was VERY IMPORTANT to him was to hold me and my hand very tightly when we were about to sleep…all the time.It was like he was afraid of something…he was afraid of: Sleeping??. Why was he afraid of “letting me go ” by holding me tight before sleeping. As I said ..this was just not on the Golden Period …but all the time. Why?

    1. Hope says:

      I’m curious as well.

  2. Star says:

    I am curious HG, as of late, the has been quite a few heated discussions, and, uh… interesting dynamics going on amongst yourself and between commenters. I am interested in your true feelings on this. Does it provide fuel? Induce fury?do you find it blase or mildly amusing? Or, and no offence, malice or insult meant towards you,( you know I respect you and your work)are you the master puppeteer to us the puppets?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It provides low grade fuel if the heated discussions are caused by me. It does not induce fury, although I do become irritated by those posters who assert inaccuracies. I find ongoing spats interesting and amusing for a period of time and then become bored by them.

  3. ava101 says:

    Thank you very much KT! 🙂

  4. ava101 says:

    HG, which one of your articles was about faking remorse, about coming back to an empath saying you were sorry?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Off the top of my head I do not recall the title, if you use the search function you will probably be able to find it.

      1. ava101 says:

        I wasn’t. Does anybody here remember?

      2. ava101 says:

        It was one of the Hoover articles, wasn’t it?

    2. KT says:

      Exposure: Post Escape mentions about the greater appearing remorseful

  5. VFH says:

    Would you say you are able to have respect for someone HG?

    Not for their wishes; I understand yours are the only ones of interest to you. I mean respect an individual for what they do, their expertise, what they may have achieved etc.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I can do so yes, albeit it can some evaporate.

  6. Victoria says:

    Exemplary article on showing us your inner thoughts and feelings-my gratitude. Only someone with your skills could write in such a way to allow us inside your inner desires and fears.
    Being an empath and having the ability to put myself in someone else’s place-I truly feel for your struggle and what someone of your intelligence and stature must endure from others to obtain fuel.
    Thank you for sharing this masterpiece! Well Done!! 🙂 🙂

  7. P says:

    What HG is trying to say is: if i say die now and you crumble – you are doing all the work of helping him maintain a sense of balance and stasis in a (false) power-position that makes him feel temporarily well, which for him is a sense of superiority. Beneath it though, is volatility and a chaotic sense of self, which will eventually smash everything in a kind of tantrum (cold or hot) and then he attempts to regain compensatory control, in a neverending cycle that goes on regardless of who you are. It’s an addictive cycle.

  8. P says:

    Indy – yes it’s all interconnected and varies per individual. I also agree that emotions are connected to the body, i think of emotions as attached to physical states and feelings as mental states that interpret emotion. Low-affect means low emotion and also only certain emotions, usually aggressive range primal ones – so feeling is also compromised, along with the impact of memory (?) and relationship bonding.

    An emotion that comes from thinking-feeling superior could be contempt combined with short-fused impatience, it’s apathetic towards the existence of another, but it’s still emotional information that tells the person who they are in that situation with regards to the other person. “I’m above you in a state of contempt and anything that you do to challenge my superiority will be met with rage: die now!” The rage part is indicative of how volatile the power-position actually is.

    This objectifying of a person through analysis is a funny revenge, but HG manages to do it to himself as well at times, he talks about gender identity in a way that’s very self-reflexive, but the stalking and emotional rape is really perverse, meaning it denies the subjectivity of others and only objectifies them. This is also why people with these kinds of conditions can abuse children, they can’t respect the integrity of other people and social boundaries, also within themselves, they are internally chaotic. Which is also why they have this complex fantasy world based on causality myths that are practically impossible and falsely coherent. It’s part of how they stabalise themselves and they need the external world to reflect their internal world in order to locate a sense of self. They are aggressive but also avoidant of any intimacy. That’s where the predatory behaviour comes into play, it’s an addiction that is deeply entwined with their defense mechanisms that stabalise internal states and form self-boundaries – and without it they fall into a deep depression. Which is why for some people not abusing would be like quitting heroin. It’s a grim reality.

    I think he tries to minimise it (selfishly) by making rape emotional, but that’s just as bad as physical assault because the victim internalises it more. But our legal systems only recognise empirical facts, and victims also confuse violent boundary invasions with their need for intimacy – so it’s complicated. It’s a no-win situation for everyone, hence no contact, but there will always be contact for someone.

  9. Missy A says:

    A very deep article. In my mind, only a very skilled Greater could reflect on his inner wounds in such detail and even post these reflections publicly. HG Tudor, indeed you have mastered control over your inner beasts.

  10. P says:

    To answer people’s questions earlier – yes power is experienced emotionally, and there’s a whole range of power-emotions, such as superiority, rage, entitlement, bored impatience *in an entitled way, and sadistic desire.

    1. Indy says:

      Hi P,
      You make a good point. I just never thought of “power” itself as an emotion. It is definitely relational experience. I need to read more about the relationship of power with emotion. I think in more primary emotion ranges and go from there: Anger, Joy, Love, Sadness, Jealousy, Fear, Guilt, Shame, Surprise, Disgust and then branching out in combos and nuances and levels (i.e. emotion wheel stuff). Though, I see where you are going with this and it would open this up to more relational type emotions. Now, I think of rage as an extreme anger. I think of entitlement and superiority as a cognitive perspective/opinion, not emotions. Though, they may have a different classification system than what I am exposed to at this point and need to read more on this. If you have any sources on this, I would love to read on it 🙂 Thank you for sharing as it does make sense.

      1. P says:

        hi Indy, how we rationalise the world (or are taught to) can trigger emotional response. Entitlement is taught through knowledge that is naturalised – so it appears to be the natural order of things. Not all knowledge is critical or reflexive.

        So getting to the person with NPD or ASPD, when children get ‘angry’ (without the value adults give anger, that’s learned), they are learning to separate their needs from their primary care-givers and the world around them and they learn self-boundaries in that way. The person with NPD/ ASPD is someone who hasn’t matured emotionally through separating their needs from individual others—and that can conflate later with societal norms which privilege certain individuals or traits which can be used to leverage power over others. They still identify with the social world, but they will do so from their embodied perspective.

        When a person has low emotion, through their neurochemistry or trauma or both, they can cognitively understand ’emotion’ on an abstract level, but they have a harder time attaching any value to memories, relationships and representations (also aesthetics). There’s no poetry, no depth of meaning and not much stimulation on those levels. Boredom is one of the biggest issues for them. That doesn’t mean that all emotion is shut off, there can be primal emotions around basic needs (and those needs are attached to the individual’s inner experience), but they have a shallow conscience: that is the main point. A person with this condition can learn to develop a value system rationally, or they can just respond to their basic needs. Plus they live in an isolated reality so only their needs appear to matter because they don’t feel connected to others.

        Most social relationships are mediated by power of some kind, trust is a value. Power can be more easily identified, it serves a concrete purpose, trust without the emotional value of trust – isn’t recognised or takes on a different meaning, such as: this person will give me what i need, in the way i expect it, without having needs of their own because that’s too complicated.

        1. Indy says:

          Hi P,
          Thank you for your detailed breakdown of your position. Several of your points we are on the same page, for sure. I would like to clarify my position a bit for why my question about power.
          So, I view emotion as a response to an event that is either caused externally or internally (memory, thought). Emotions involve body sensations internally, chemical changes, internal urges to act, outward actions, facial expressions and observable responses. Our emotions are either strengthened or dimmed by our interpretations (and behaviors) and our interpretations also influence our following emotions in a circular fashion.
          Behaviors influence Emotions and Emotions influence Behaviors. And Thoughts influence Emotions as do Emotions influence Thoughts. Same with thoughts and behaviors, naturally, though rarely teased apart from emotion. Oftentimes emotions are experienced faster than thoughts, thus the need for mindfulness practice to slow the experience down for the individual. The key in increasing emotional awareness in those that are disconnected from their emotions from their emotional experience (like those who have had trauma) is to separate thoughts from emotions. “Power” is an Emotion-Thought unit, unseparated, in my view. Power, as I see it when I look at my personal experience of it is a combination of Pride (Emotion) mixed with Superiority (Thought/judgement) …it can also be more complex in the sense of Pride (emotion) mixed with contentment (emotion) and superiority (Thought/judgement)….OR Pride mixed with contempt and superiority….does this make sense? Now, this could totally be different experience for HG. That is what I would really like to know, as we all experience things differently. Further, HG often writes on here that he does not experience certain emotions at all (Joy, Sadness, Fear, Love) while has full access to a range of Anger (irritation, annoyance, rage) and Disgust (Contempt, etc). I hypothesize those seemingly absent emotions are just reduced, not gone. When emotions are caught up in emotion-thought units, it clouds emotion identification, in my opinion. So, when I hear “power”, I think…but what are the primary emotion/emotions behind that experience. As a side note, HG often talks about feeling “content” (A dimmed level of Joy) but denies experiencing happiness. I think he said, “I do not do Joy.” So, that is also why I challenged the “power” answer.

          With all that said, I am open to other theories on power and emotional models. Just giving you an idea of the model I work from…

      2. VFH says:

        Hello P, Indy and All interested in this thread….and HG of course. I have a question for you….

        If you don’t know what ‘love’ feels like how do you know the feeling you describe as ‘power ‘ isn’t a version of that? Obviously I know that (traditionally) love isn’t an unkind emotion – is that what underpins your understanding that it’s not love? Can you, HG, recall feeling love? Before your events that changed everything.

        Sorry if my train of thought goes all over here but, a feeling of love or happiness could perhaps be processed as a feeling of power couldn’t it? The rush you get from something that makes you really happy? Or the high from an achievement? And those people’s reactions to your success could bring feelings of pride and joy, or fulfilment… a sense of power if you will, but in its most innocent and constructive form? And, as with a child who is getting no attention, they might play up in order to get some and it matters not to them that it’s negative if scolded for their misbehaving.

        I’m not sure where I’m going with this. But essentially if you don’t know what your feeling is then how do you know what it isn’t?

        1. honestyrocks777 says:

          Why did this go unaddressed? Darnit!! Lol

      3. KT says:

        Indy dont bother reasoning with a ED. This person will never understand you hence you are wasting your breath. Remember that HG thought us that with them there is no alignment of interest, and that they reason from a different perspective. You are just igniting the fury. Lol

        1. Indy says:

          Hi KT,
          I agree, there is no need for me to engage with her. I always hope people have some logic and I engage in friendly to cold debate. Once the name calling and illogical thoughts and diversion tactics were drawn out, I decided to back out. I have some compassion for her in the sense that she is not able to see logic and pose counter views logically and that is concerning, from a wellbeing perspective. As we have seen with other countless posters in the past year, we have seen people go into a emotional rages, say ill logical things, and I have to remind myself that the posters may come from places and states of mind we are not aware. People with challenges more serious than this blog can help. And, there are those that just wish to mess with people, prank, and those that just do not have the ability to understand even HGs material properly. For those reasons I pull my claws into my paws and remind myself how lucky I am.

          With compassion and peace, may those that defend truth be heard, and those that need to hear and heed HGs messages, read his work before reading messages. Ask HG directly. And, compare it with what you experienced and other sources. I did. He’s the real deal and his help saves people from staying longer in these interactions, how to leave and never go back (I know).


          1. Twilight says:

            Well said

        2. honestyrocks777 says:

          What is an ED. Please?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Not necessary to know

  11. P says:

    To put it simply: the narc is a very shallow person. Any relationship you have with them even when it’s not abusive, is going to be shallow. To over-invest emotionally in that kind of relationship is a waste of energy. It can serve as a reminder if you have been abused before, of the kinds of trap you don’t want to be in again and so facing your pain and fears seems liberating by comparison, which it is. The narc will only ever use you and if they realise you ‘exist’ they feel envy which triggers their violence. It’s not cute.

    1. sarabella says:

      I was thinking today how he once posted be only wants a pretty face but that the woman should leave the thinking to him. So in other words, not exist. It suddenly made his world so pathetic. To know you just want someone without a brain. In otherwords, shallow. This is what a friend picked up on about him, that i have too much of a brain, ‘too complex’. No, I just exist.

    2. Violetta says:

      I don’t think it’s possible for most of them to realize we “exist.”

  12. DJ says:

    Jenna your comment says it all. By your own admission, the only way you can maintain a basic rapport with your ex is to deny your own views, values and beliefs in order to keep the peace. If you disagree over anything (in your case a past incident) you then feel you have to apologise to stop him blocking you. I’m not criticising you in any way, in fact part of me admires your strength. I personally am no longer prepared to sacrifice any bit of myself for the sake of his false ego, which is why my only way out was no contact. I miss his texts and he too was mostly pleasant and polite but I now know that’s because he always has an agenda.

    1. Jenna says:

      Hi DJ! Are you new here? If so, welcome! Oh trust me, my ex and i have had numerous disagreements in the past 3 yrs. We were both drained, him wanting to smash his cell phone at times lol! So we decided to leave the past in the past. And we agree regarding one thing- that there are things in the past that we disagree on 😄
      It does hurt sometimes when i want to get a point across, and he doesn’t want to talk about it, but it’s ok because i am a bit obsessive with regards to some issues, and it’s a good exercise for me to practise verbal self control. He apologizes abt 50% of the time as well. It’s certainly not an easy situation to be in, but i am willing to try. So far so good. But he’s a narc, so let’s see how long it lasts😄

      1. DJ says:

        Hi Jenna I came across the site a few months ago but was too deep in the aftermath of my relationship to attempt getting involved in the discussions. Thanks to many factors, HG included, I have gained the perspective to look at the topic objectively. I think the whole concept of the blog is fascinating and totally admire HG for the obvious amount of time and effort he invests in it. It really has speeded up my recovery massively. I’m curious as to one aspect of your comment above. You say your ex apologises to you? That goes against any narcissistic impulse or behaviour pattern I’ve ever heard of, unless it’s for manipulation. I’m intrigued

        1. Jenna says:

          Hi DJ! Glad you finally decided to join the discussions. It aids in healing. My ex apologizes because i tell him when he hurts me. Otherwise, being a narc, he would not know what is hurtful, eg. postponing meetings. After i tell him, he tries very hard not to repeat it, and he apologizes.

      2. DJ says:

        Thanks for clarifying Jenna. My ex was totally aware when he was hurting me, would never apologise under pain of death and would instead shift the blame onto me. I think I get now how you’re able to maintain a rapport with your ex!

  13. Sassifrass says:

    Just checking in to say – the n colleague I identified at work is having a silent, smiling rampage across the office. During the fuel check in I slightly leaning on buttons and compared the behaviour with your info HG & it’s spot on! I’m in leftover supernova from my own n experience so I feel like pressing all the buttons. I will refrain but oh its so tempting.

  14. Jenna says:

    KDB, i think it may be possible, depending on where in the narcissistic spectrum your narc lies. With my ex, he texts me every few wks to see how i’m doing. I believe he’s really doing it for fuel, but i don’t mind because i enjoy interacting with him. I give him fuel in potent amounts and hopefully that helps him. However, i cannot say anything that will wound him. For example, the other day i disagreed and became angry about something he said about our past. He felt wounded and he wanted to block me. So i said sorry and we decided that there are certain things we disagree on, and to leave those things in the past, and to move forward. I felt sad that he can consider blocking me to prevent wounding, but i have to remember that he’s a narc and he will firstly look after his own feelings. So i do have to compromise my feelings but luckily it isn’t that often. He is pretty well behaved and tries to remain pleasant and polite.

    1. KDB says:


      Hmm interesting perspective. Thank you, I wondered this very same thing about the spectrum of the individual being a factor. I understand the blocking because of wounding. Even if it hurts I understand it wholeheartedly. I can tell you truly care and have a healthy objective about the emotional side of it. We all must protect ourselves in some ways. We are all different. It is nice to hear you’ve found a healthy standpoint with it. Food for thought here.

      1. Jenna says:

        KDB, thank you for your comment. My situation is definitely not for everyone, and i have been encouraged to go no contact here a few times. But i still care about him, so it’s difficult for me to do that. It also helps that he has chosen to not have any new ipps, otherwise i may have been jealous. 😄

        1. HG Tudor says:

          As far as you know.

  15. Jenna says:

    This is so sad. I wish i, or somebody, could give you potent positive fuel that never goes stale, so that you may live in peace.

    1. KDB says:

      It’s a wonderful concept. Is it possible I wonder? Perhaps if both parties know of the emotional exchange needed to fulfill someone with NPD? This question is on my mind lately. But I’m unsure of how much someone like HG needs?

      1. DJ says:

        KDB from my experience the only person that could even come close to that task would literally have zero self love or self value. I doubt that person exists. Ultimately the fuel would still lose it’s appeal due to repitition,

        1. KDB says:

          Indeed a harsh thing to consider. How long until it erodes or the boredom sets in due to repetition? Even less self love would be at the door waiting. Quite a sacrifice in the upkeep of that highly required amount.

      2. Jenna says:

        KDB, it’s worth noting that my ex hates negative fuel. He avoids it with a passion. HG says he may hate it because he feels it’s a type of blame shifting towards him. So there are differences between narcs. If he were the type who would try to garner negative fuel frm me, i don’t think i would be able to survive the ‘new’ friendship that we have.

        1. KDB says:


          Thanks for replying again. I can see why the provision of negative fuel is harder to provide than positive. Large quantities of negative emotion can take a toll and produce exhaustion much quicker. Do you find this simpler with the positive?

          But both do remove something from the provider in the exchange either way. You’ve got gusto, I’ll give you that. Patience as well. Thanks!

          It can be an eggshell game. Thanks!

          1. Jenna says:

            KDB, the fact that he despises negative fuel keeps our interactions pleasant. If he were to like negative fuel, i don’t think i would be able to provide it for him, for exactly the reason you state- exhaustion! And morally i would not feel right about it. Thank you for the compliment. I’m trying hard to make this friendship work, upon his request. Let’s see how long it lasts lol😄

  16. Bri says:

    Brilliant HG…and this is not free fuel, it’s my sincere opinion.

    If you know sometimes all is paranoid when you feel an injury, why then you can’t stop feeling it? I mean, you know that’s a wrong thought, the empath maybe have no intention to hurt you, so why you cannot stop thinking that way? I know it’s a disorder, I know a lesser can’t even know who he is or what is he doing, but you ??? you are really brilliant, the Supernova of Narcissist…

    I’m reading your books, your website and all the time I’m asking myself WHY you see us, you see yourself but nothing changes, you continue needing fuel every day of your life…I know it must be difficult change but your intelligence makes me think constantly WHY? in a lesser I’ll understand, even in a mid range, but you???

    This is how a great feels, maybe all greaters recognize themselves in this entry, but what do you think if a lesser or a mid range could read this? Would they recognize themselves?

  17. Mona says:

    imagine being wounded by the words and action of him and others. Imagine that injurious sensation arising because of the deliberate and treacherous behaviour of someone who we have come to rely on.The slight that is occasioned by them stings, hurts and pains. Imagine suffering that agony even if the transgressor claims not to have intended such injury and pleads innocence of all wrongdoing. It still does not take away what he and others have done.
    Imagine the horror, the disappointment, the fury as that perfect turns out to be a seditious charlatan who has lied, conned and connived. Imagine trying to bury it but knowing it will not be able. Imagine that and so, so much more.

    Can you imagine it?
    I have to.

    (Only words left out, or changed and you described my feelings perfectly.) Is there so much difference in feeling wounded between you and me ?

  18. E. B. says:

    Very honest and insightful article. Thank you. It is always interesting to read how your kind feel. To be honest, I would have never imagined that your kind believe we hold some kind of power and that you think you are dependent on us. First, I believe this is exactly the opposite. It is the narcissist who holds the power when I am dealing with him/her. It is usually a no-win situation for me: damn if you do, damn if you don’t. Second, I do not need to feel *powerful*. I don’t know why. I am not interested in it. Third, the knowledge gained here is only used to protect myself but not to harm or destroy other people.

    1. Angelic says:

      A good observation EB

    2. NarcAngel says:

      There is power in every dynamic good or bad and it can be shared. The Narc holds the power when you are dealing with him/her because of your lack of interest in, and your assertion of not needing to feel it. He holds it because you hand it to him, and then you lament that it is no win and you are damned if you do or dont. If you feel that having power is only a negative thing that must be shunned and avoided and you hand yours over, you can never expect a different result. You do not need to harm or destroy people with power. You can deny him his and exert your own just by not engaging. That is a form of power.

      1. E. B. says:

        NarcAngel, thank you for your observations. They are helpful and I will think about what you said. Most people in positions of power I know use it to take advantage of, harm or destroy other people. They use power as a weapon, although they do not need to protect themselves. They are not threatened. It is like a drug. They need to *feel powerful* at all costs in each and every interaction. Maybe that is the reason why I think it is something negative when it is not.
        While not engaging/not reacting is the right thing to do and it does work most of the times, there are times when this is not enough to stop a narcissist from harassing someone. Assertive behaviour can be interpreted as aggressive behaviour because they cannot take No for an answer (in a neutral way, without emotions) or they cannot accept that people they consider potential victims disengage, minimize, ignore or cut off contact with them.

      2. Star says:

        That is an amazing response NarcAngel:)

      3. sarabella says:

        I like what you wrote here. Except in other types of narc relationships anf power, I think the love bombing is when we slowly give that power over, not realizing we are doing so. We (I) do it as from my empathic and sharing mindset, this is how mutual relationships built on exchange work, power is not overly defended. In the love bombing and seduction phase, we are led to believe that this is what is going on, that power is being shared. Not realizing we are being tricked, we slowly hand it over. Then, all too late, the shit hits the fan and we discover there is no reciprocity. There is no true exchange. There is no mutuality. But there we are, left with our proverbial power pants down and entangled. It then takes immense strength to pull them back up because I think to really do so, feels like we are rejecting the narc and we suddenly risk them walking as threat of abandonment is one of their manipulations. So we don’t, can’t see how to juggle regaining our power without driving the narc off. Enter the pleading and begging phase which is a substitute in a way for doing what seems impossible, take our power back.

        I was fully in my power with the narc and somehow, he flipped a switch, or so it felt. But really, it was gradual. Little switches he flipped to bring me down to be controlled. And that is when I started ‘screaming’. Or, getting destructive as he claimed.

        In work and such, the narc and power dynamic has a built in threat. Take power against a narc boss and you risk losing you pay check. That is the nature of the threat, the equivalent of abandonment, that exists from day one when you start to dance with money.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you.

          1. sarabella says:

            Sorry, I meant NarcAngel and her post abiut power…

          2. NarcAngel says:

            You know very well that HG has the rights to any and all compliments here lol, and of course he deserves them.

            How is it you came to be involved in the podcasts? Was one of the organizers familiar with your blog having been here? Or read one of your books? Just wondering how about the various ways word is getting around and if you find you are being sought out more for these types of events of late. It certainly seems that NPD is coming out of the shadows.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Bree and I interacted in October 2015 and then wrote to me recently based on my expertise and growing audience to ask if I would participate.

          4. MLA - Clarece says:

            Wow! So Bree found you shortly after starting the blog and has seen the rapid growth and popularity you have! Impressive!

          5. NarcAngel says:

            I believe HG will quickly be found to be the ONLY source after more people ate introduced to his information, exquisite writing style and his personal interaction.

            We may have created a monster lol

          6. sarabella says:

            NarcAngel : maybe back off me? HG was thanking me for when I said I liked what was written. But i was liking YOUR post about power, not his original thread/post so I was clarifying. what the heck.

          7. sarabella says:

            oh, hahah were YOU jesting? i just saw the LOL!!! if so, Sarabella eats it!

          8. NarcAngel says:

            Haha get to chewin. Yes, I was teasing. I knew your comment was in reply to me.

          9. sarabella says:

            It was tasty!! lol but I dunno, I think HG should be eating it, too. Afterall, he claimed something that wasn’t his. Oh, but wait I forget… its all his? lol

  19. A.R. says:

    Imagine being tied down. Fed for weeks, taken care of on every level until your so-called “monster” sees the light of day & dissipates into nothing.
    The fear you have of this creature is who would you be without it. Like the hole in the doughnut. Emptiness, like everything else is temporary.
    Imagine who you might be without the ongoing fight with an inner demon.
    Just a thought
    With warm energy

  20. ISeeYou says:

    Damn… now you sound like freaking John Lennon. “Imagine, Imagine, Imagine this… imagine that… image, image, image… blah blah blah blah”…

    Yeah that guy was a narc too. Imagine all the people who got duped by that load of peace frog.

    1. NarcAngel says:


      Your comment was my laugh of the day so far. Thank you for that.

  21. workrelatedok says:

    Stillness is also not an option for those who are left behind by the narc. I think it is a misconception that empaths will eventually find a resolution. I can find no way to calmness in my soul.

    Today I was overwhelmed with sadness and rage for the two other babies apart from our son that I conceived with the narcAllister, babies I never got to hold. One was due on Valentines Day (a boy, Michael, late miscarriage) and the other was due 13 years ago tomorrow. There is no stillness. The love that was taken from the decent has destroyed my soul.

    1. E. B. says:

      They will always be your children, workrelatedok.

      1. workrelatedok says:

        Thank you EB.

  22. horseyak says:

    I must say it again, fabulous article.

  23. DJ says:

    Another brilliantly eloquent article. Yes I can imagine. Which is why I stuck around for so much longer than was good for me. Can you imagine yourself ever challenging the beast, HG? Call me a romantic fool, but I find it impossible to comprehend that you can, not only face up to, but delve deep into you condition with such clarity and not be even the teensy bit curious as to how things would be if you could be cured.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is the subject of repeated discussion.

      1. DJ says:

        On here or with the good doctors? Are their hopes on you for the big breakthrough? We all know that self awareness is the first step towards recovery and you have that in bucketloads. To me the next step is so logical that it’d be impossible not to attempt it. Fear of oblivion must be a terrible thing but, alas, that I cannot imagine. Your logic and my logic are worlds apart. I really do feel for you, HG, but then that empathy is what makes the whole merry go round go round.

    2. Angelic says:


      an interesting topic that i am reflecting on now for quite awhile.

      As i have come to the conclusion that Narcissists because of their ” high behavioural demand” .. i believe that actually they could change their patterns.
      They had to really want to do so.
      I know its difficult for someone that hypothetically is void of emphaty and accountability to change patterns for the sake of not hurting others.
      However, if the could see that they are also the one that will suffer in the end, then, they might.
      What do you think?

      1. DJ says:

        Hi Angelic
        I personally think that a lack of motivation to change would be the crucial issue. As HG has so eloquently explained in several articles he feels no conscience, no guilt for the hurt he causes. As I understand it, narcissists are governed by an inflated ego, their ‘self’ being what remains of a very damaged child. If this is truly the case, would the key to a cure not be through empowerment of the child in order to destroy the ego? I know that’s incredibly simplified but to me it feels logical.

  24. fattypetters says:

    HG is this the case… feeling…position of all narcisist of the greater type ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Essentially, yes.

      1. fattypetters says:

        Thank you for the reply !

  25. VFH says:

    Hello HG

    I have a personal question for you… if you wouldn’t mind answering, do you have healthy feet?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Interesting question. Yes I have.

      1. VFH says:

        Thank you for replying HG. Two things…

        1 – why do you find it an interesting question?

        2 – I’d be interested to hear if any other survivors of narc relationships noticed anything about their narcissist partner’s foot health and, therefore whether it might be “a thing”. Like lack of startle reflex/lack of body odour is. Not a red flag to hang anything off, but just of interesting note.

        My ex had nice enough looking feet in general but he had an intermittent fungal thing that flared up, skin would split under his toes, he had incredibly soft-soled feet in fact, like he’d not walked on them ever. Also, his little toes grow at right angles to the others (the flat underside lies next to the neighbouring toe ifyswim) so it is basically sideways rather than facing upwards as the others do. The toenails on those toes are also split in two…not sore, but don’t grow as a one whole nail. Hard to describe.

        Anyway! In talking to a couple of friends whose exes are from the narcissist stable, it turns out they have the same thing to some degree.

        A total coincidence perhaps, but it peaked my interest nonetheless.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. Nobody has asked me that before and I am curious as to the relevance.

          2. I cannot say I have ever noticed anything about the narcissist’s that I know and their feet albeit I am not someone who stares at the ground.

          1. VFH says:

            Aha. Well now you know the relevance.

            I don’t imagine you do. Apart from anything, if we stared at the ground whilst walking about there’d be many bumped heads. Not that that’s why you don’t, of course.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha true.

      2. DJ says:

        Sorry VFH bloody autocorrect!

    2. DJ says:

      Hi VHF Interestingly, my ex had very similar complaints with his feet. They were incredibly sensitive to change in temperature and environment and he had a fungal infection under his toenails that flared up constantly. It’s drove him insane, I think he saw it as a sign of weakness. He refused to discuss it with a doctor so I brought it up with my sister, who is a health service professional, and he was furious at me for doing so (silent treatment for 2 days). Of course he played on it, get me a foot bath, it’s too hot, there’s not enough salt in, where have you hidden the medicine, etc,etc. but it was definitely an issue.

      1. VFH says:

        Hi DJ….ha ha – VHF – actually I like it, bit of an old school fan at heart over the modern day!

        Interesting indeed….I wonder how many others will empathise (no pun intended.)

        After how my ex treated me and our family (and how I know he’s treated others) I saw the split toenail thing as an evolutionary hangover from his cloven hooves…..

      2. DJ says:

        I put it down to the excessive drinking bringing about poor circulation. It wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest if he had cloven hooves!

    3. Pandora says:

      OMG YES! Fungus and nasty.. no smell just lots of dry skin and massive fungus problem! And teeth as well! Major issues there … damn scary!

      1. VFH says:

        Hi Pandora DJ and PD….

        Hmm we might be onto something. For what it’s worth anyway.

        I do find it all v interesting. Bit too interesting sometimes!

    4. I can’t sleep, so I’ll chime in here. According to my research.. 😋
      Extremities, both hands and feet, among narcissists present some kind of an issue, minor or major, depending..
      The hands will be either a bit small (potus), or very big (my narc #2), same goes for the feet. They will be more sensitive, the skin peeling often( my sister), some discoloration, prone to infections. etc. but it is not the rule.
      It may have to do with the central nervous system functioning differently.
      Also, there are further issues that stem from the descrese in skin sensitivity, and less neural pathways leading to the extremities.
      You will notice that their clothes will not fit well, they tend to commit fashion faux pas. There is usually a problem with their hair dos. The way they walk, and wear themselves in general.
      They don’t feel themselves. Their self awareness in space is off.
      Haptics is definitely a problem, as is their vision rather than hearing. But the sense of smell often heightened (my Narc #2).
      Research pending..

      1. DJ says:

        Now that’s fascinating my ex ticked pretty much all of those boxes. ED, I think you may be on to something there.

        1. I am, I am building arguments to support my theory.

      2. fragilefemme says:

        Small ears, foot fungus and found soft touch irritable. I would say that we’re talking not about NPD alone here, but NPD as a symptom along with psychopathy.

        1. Hurt says:

          My ex narc has extremely long fingers and toes

        2. Hurt says:

          OMW and small ears if I think about it….and a short neck

        3. VFH says:

          Maybe we should let Dr Hare know to include questions about foot health in his scales of psychopathy….

        4. There is no difference between psychopathy and narcissism.
          It is not even a personality disorder.
          There’s much confusion with very little scientific research on this subject.
          I do not believe any current classifications of this disorder reflect reality.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Did you get your doctorate in the game of Operation?

          2. sarabella says:

            hahaha … the game operation

          3. P says:

            This isn’t a clinical psychology forum, some people have been diagnosed with psychopathy, NPD or ASPD – but it varies per person, diagnoses are about grouping clusters of behaviour and personality traits and sometimes neurological mapping, whereas treatment is individualised and interpreted. There are no pure ‘prototypes’. NPD is a distinct condition from psychopathy and ASPD and they can overlap, but aren’t expressed in the same ways to the same degree in everyone.

          4. i know you believe in psychology, and our society knowing something, yet it’s all wrong, P.
            Future scientific research will put your little psychology theories to shame and prove it completely wrong.
            Both psychopathy and narcissism have the same root, and it’s genetic.
            Psychology can only study the behavioral effects of the genetic mutation, falsely classifying it into little meaningless boxes.

          5. Indy says:

            Hi ED,
            I understand that you view psychology with distain, though, even biologists and neurologists know that environment (including ones behavior) can alter the expression of genes and change neuropathways. Psychological theory is not useless because it helps predict, explain behaviors, including those that have been semicemented into our brains through reinforcement and punishment patterns, stress hormones, neurochemicals and such.

            I’m a firm believer in integrative theories, bio-psycho-social theories of behavior. As P mentioned, diagnoses are hypothesizes we work from for treatment planning primarily. Do they change with time and with science and culture, yep, though they do have their uses.

          6. I don’t view psychology in disdain, Indy. But in this case, psychology is wrong. And you will see this in due time.
            From my research on genetics, your DNA doesn’t change from birth to death, there is nothing that can alter genetic sequence, or we wouldn’t exist. However, environment can only activate or deactivate certain sequence strings, but they remain unchanged.
            In case of narcissism, the DNA sequence responsible for printing emotion proteins in their brain is missing. This alone is the reason for narcissistic behavior in its entirety.
            All the while you have your colleagues who claim that narcissitic behavior is the root of narcissism. It’s a logical nonsense.
            There is a wide variety of neurological issues that accompany narcissism, like the a sense of startle reflex, lower surface skin sensitivity, lower pain threshold, issues with extremities : deformations, etc etc.
            Behavior alone, or a personality disorder doesn’t explain or address any of those.
            The disorder originates in our DNA, and its source is in our brain, the behavior is a consequence, not the origin.

          7. Indy says:

            I didn’t say behavior alone, I said environment can turn genes off and on. Brain neiropsthways can change as well.

            I know you are guarded with stating your profession for some reason or any foundational sources. This is not consistent with ethical research standard. If your data has not been published it should not be disseminated and such a format like this, especially when it flies in the face of all current research. With that said I would like to know what field is your specialty, are you the primary researcher, who funded your research, how many subjects were involved in your study, how many different measures did you utilize to determine proper diagnoses and how did you classify those diagnoses and based on what criteria? and what statistical analyses did you choose? What journal are you planning on publishing it in? Is this a university-based study or a corporate funded study? Is it through philanthropy or and NIH? Who are some of the associated researchers of the study?

          8. Dear Indy, I am so sorry. I just looked at this from your point of view, and you’re right I shouldn’t disseminate incomplete unpublished research.
            I haven’t written complete information here either, only snippets. It’s because when reading comments here, there’s so much suffering on both sides and my empathy kicks in and i want to share so bad. So consider it food for thought for now, do your own digging a bit and it will lead you on the path to the truth.
            I promise to share everything you asked for when it’s complete. It is a vast vast vast research combining various fields: genetics, anthropology, evolution, biology, neuroscience, etc. I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around it myself, but having the entire picture I know it’s real and it all makes complete sense.
            Eventually I’ll be working with several scientists, and we will get this ball rolling to heal not only victims who will have the entire truth, but also heal narcissists. They are hurting too not being able to have a full human experience.

            Busy day today, later.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            So if you have the whole picture, then reference the evidence and studies as Indy has politely asked you to do, rather than deflecting the question with an answer which doesn’t stand up to scrutiny as to the reason why you are unwilling/unable to provide reference and evidence.

          10. VFH says:

            Is it just me or are you testing our Narc radars, emotion detective?

          11. Because so far the whole research is in my head, it hasn’t commenced yet.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            Ah, so what you mean is you have a theory but nothing to support it. All is now clear.

          13. Indy says:

            The Roots of Narcissus: Old and New Models of the Evolution of Narcissism
            Evolutionary Perspectives on Social Psychology: Part of the series Evolutionary Psychology pp 479-489
            (Holtzman & Donnellan, 2015)

            Journal of Research in Personality
            Volume 49, April 2014, Pages 52–58
            Distinguishing communal narcissism from agentic narcissism: A behavior genetics analysis on the agency–communion model of narcissism
            Yu L.L. Luoa, Huajian Caia, Constantine Sedikidesb, Hairong Songc
            (The sample comprised 304 pairs of twins. Genes explained 47% and 25% of the variance in agentic and communal narcissism)–which implies environmental factors.

            Luo YLL, Cai H, Song H (2014) A Behavioral Genetic Study of Intrapersonal and Interpersonal Dimensions of Narcissism. PLoS ONE 9(4): e93403.
            “grandiosity (23%) and entitlement (35%) were found to be moderately heritable, while simultaneously showing considerable non-shared environmental influences”

            Personality and Individual Differences
            Volume 44, Issue 2, January 2008, Pages 445–452. behavioral genetic investigation of the Dark Triad and the Big 5
            Philip A. Vernona, , Vanessa C. Villania, Leanne C. Vickersa, Julie Aitken Harrisb
            “At the univariate level, all traits showed the influence of genetic and non-shared environmental factors, with heritabilities ranging between .31 and .72; Machiavellianism alone also showed the influence of shared environmental factors”

            Role of Genotype in the Cycle of Violence in Maltreated Children
            Avshalom Caspi1,2, Joseph McClay1,
            Terrie E. Moffitt1,2,*Jonathan Mill1,
            Judy Martin3, Ian W. Craig1,
            Alan Taylor1, Richie Poulton
            Science 02 Aug 2002:
            Vol. 297, Issue 5582, pp. 851-854
            DOI: 10.1126/science.1072290

            Role of Genotype in the Cycle of Violence in Maltreated Children
            Avshalom Caspi1,2, Joseph McClay1,
            Terrie E. Moffitt1,2,*Jonathan Mill1,
            Judy Martin3, Ian W. Craig1, Alan
            Taylor1, Richie
            “W studied a large sample of male children from birth to adulthood to determine why some children who are maltreated grow up to develop antisocial behavior, whereas others do not. A functional polymorphism in the gene encoding the neurotransmitter-metabolizing enzyme monoamine oxidase A (MAOA) was found to moderate the effect of maltreatment. Maltreated children with a genotype conferring high levels of MAOA expression were less likely to develop antisocial problems. These findings may partly explain why not all victims of maltreatment grow up to victimize others, and they provide epidemiological evidence that genotypes can moderate children’s sensitivity to environmental insults.”

            Vukasović, T. & Bratko, D. Heritability of personality: a meta-analysis of behavior genetic studies. Psychol. Bull. 141, 769–785 (2015).
            (Implies environment plus genetics).

            I could cite pages and pages of these type of findings from a very simple search of peer reviewed journals (took 10 min). It all points to the complex comb of environment mixed with biological vulnerabilities impact outcomes.

            Now, genetic dosage theories can explain why one child with a lovely home may become narcissistic or antisocial personality still and why one is a horribly abusive home not.. More genetic hits, more likely to develop. Less hits, less likely. Add in the environment and gene expression varies even more.

            Now, if you share some foundational research you built your theory on, I would be happy to review. Based on my professional and personal experience, your statements do not line up. That is why I would like to see those studies you based your work off from. That is how we open minds if the theories do need to change.

          14. HG Tudor says:


          15. It’s funny how this is all not true.Ill leave it at that.

          16. Indy says:

            ED, I guess you do not use scientific method or peer review for your form of logic. If you are critiquing my sources prove your own to challenge. I’m suspecting something here, which I think makes this debate futile and myself having more concern for your wellbeing. I will leave it at that

          17. Do scientists post their findings on blogs?
            Is this a standard practice, especially if it’s not finished.
            There is a lot of related research I’ve found, but I’m not going to point to it, because I sense a lot of anger, and passive aggressiveness from you, which makes me think you’re a narcissist.

          18. HG Tudor says:

            I am going to interject here.

            ED, you have been asked a straight forward question repeatedly and politely. You keep ducking it. I doubt anybody is going to ask again because you have, in effect, answered it by not answering it. Plenty of deflection going on.
            Furthermore, Indy has been on this blog for a considerable time. I do not know her outside of this blog (as I do not know anybody from here outside of this blog) but I can state that having read over 2500 over he comments that she is not a narcissist. Her observations are made in a respectful and non-judging manner, even when it is clear she disagrees with somebody. For you to label her as angry, passive aggressive and a narcissist is not only wrong but deluded wrong. You ought to have picked up on that from her restrained reply to you timed at 2:04 pm today. I have no compulsion to defend Indy as she can do so herself but I have to point out your inaccuracy as it is blatant. Moreover, it is necessary for me to point it out for readers to see a clear example of projection to assist their further understanding of the dynamics of this subject matter.

          19. KT says:

            Projection…mmhm… wonder who is the real narc here.

          20. Indy says:

            Thank you HG, I know you know I can defend myself, and I still appreciate your view and support on this and using it as a teaching example. (2500 comments, dang). I also know you can appreciate the frustration of having misinformation spread without support. I’m frustrated on a few fronts but letting it rest. I’m thinking I need to have more compassion for her as I do not know her and her current struggles that I suspect exist. Thus, pulling my claws back.

            On s positive note, HG, I am now a narcissist 😉 and can call you my brethren 🤣. Hey, us marchers need some narcs in our ranks!

            Indy the big headed hippygirl.

          21. I see what you did there. I told you you were evil.

          22. MLA - Clarece says:


          23. A copout? Maybe, and why not?
            HG and his new tertiary IPPS Indy seem to think if they ask politely, I will give them all the hard work away? After the passive aggressive disrespectful commentary?

            If you show me your face HG, I’ll share with you. How is that?

          24. HG Tudor says:

            1. You do not make demands of me.
            2. I don’t want your work nor am I interested in it as I doubt it exists.
            3. Once again your inability to deliver is masked by deflection.
            4. There is no such thing as a tertiary intimate partner primary source.
            5. Indy is a tertiary source to me and I suspect she is content for that to remain the case.

          25. emotion detective says:

            I realize this is your facade talking. Your creature craves to adore me, and suck all of my delicious, pure, potent fuel out of me. It is obsessed with me, so to cover it up, your facade attacks me unreasonably, uncontrollably, and viciously, trying to keep the craven creature from crying out loud.

          26. HG Tudor says:

            Wrong again. It is the construct that wants fuel. Not the creature. The creature is not interested in fuel. The construct wants the fuel so it can be maintained and also to imprison the creature. The façade is part of the construct.
            I think you ought to stop now. You keep making errors and when these are pointed out to you, you engage in various responses such as deflection, denial, blame-shifting and projection.

          27. I make errors? What kind of errors?
            And you engage in triangulation.

          28. NarcAngel says:

            Oh the irony of HG having to continually repeat himself and point out the inconsistencies and outright misinformation by this person. To try to make sense of the ramblings and present a rational response when he knows it is most likely falling on deaf ears. To be exhausted by the black and white thinking and absurdity of it all. To be continuously exposed to this annoyance and know that despite exercising patience and intelligence that it is all likely futile.

            Sound familiar anyone?

          29. Would you agree that the creature is the one who craves negative fuel, and the facade wants positive fuel?
            The creature obviously wants something?

          30. HG Tudor says:


          31. Indy says:

            Im betting on being the creature next time ($20US)

            Sorry, I’m supposed to be compassionate now. Back to the pews, bad Indy, such a narcissist primary tertiary psychopath I am! Where’s my flava beans?

          32. Twilight says:

            Woo Hoo Indy way to go! Love the new adds to your name!
            I do believe you now have the longest name here!!!!!

          33. Jenna says:

            “You do not make demands of me” – i find this dominant attitude of leadership appealing (up to a point of course)!

          34. E. B. says:

            Re: #5 – Maybe Indy has a different opinion. 🙂

          35. KT says:

            You just dont stop

          36. KT says:

            ED please put a sock in it!!! You are behaving like a true narc..
            Going on and on about the same thing. Not accepting other peoples view. Not accepting that people dont have to agree with you. Projection. Deflection. Name calling. Denial etc etc to name a few. No one here is suddenly going to change their view just because you say so.
            Must say I was sceptical when you mentioned that both you and your sister were raised in the same loving environment but only she turned out to be a narc. Well I must say now that you have answered my question without me asking it.
            Anyway please stop now you are being really annoying.
            HG cant people be blocked from this site?!

          37. HG Tudor says:

            They can KT but I prefer to moderate out the nonsense rather than block somebody outright.

          38. Indy says:

            I’ve asked you for foundational sources (studies you are citing) as that is proper to reference, even on blogs (as I did above to make my point). You dismissed them as being false without stating why, which makes me think you do not know how to critique and reacted emotionally and shut down with essentially “no they aren’t true”. Scientific process encourages fact based debate, which you have not provided. Rather, you label me a narcissist because you feel attacked by me and hide behind accusations. One, this is not how you identify a narcissist or any other diagnosis for that matter. (If you are studying narcissim, you better learn the true diagnostic criteria, oh yeah…that’s my field (as only a psych can officially diagnose it)You are not a psychologist or psychiatrist sooooo, your diagnosis is meaningless. Two, I’m not hurt by this assertion (I mean look who is in my grouping!! All the super heros and HG lol) I am more disturbed you would fail to share your sources to engage in logical science based discussion. You see, I HAVE published research. I have over 20 years in the psych field as a diagnostician and therapist. I’m not an undergraduate lab rat trying to impress a group of strangers with false theories and grains of truth gleaned by professors to finish her term paper.

            I have no issue with you grappling with new ideas and promoting your opinion, just be honest and not misrepresent what is fact and what is your hypothesis. They are not one and the same. That is what I have issue with. I do not want your data, no. All I wanted, along with others here, is your citations that support your assertions here.

            Newly dubbed Narc Indy 😂

          39. NarcAngel says:

            NewlyNarcIndythe MarcherMixerofElixersandTinctures……………

            I think they said it all when they said: The research is all in my head.

          40. VFH says:

            HG what are your thoughts on personal choice of good vs evil (for want of a better word ) ?

            I have read in my travels online about some narcissists choosing to curtail their dastardly deeds because they appreciate the benefits that living life that way will bring eg being faithful to their wives, looking after their children, “being present ” in the lives of those who love them. I can see that is a narcissistic decision in itself but it’s one that doesn’t harm others so despite just going through the motions, is of benefit to both parties.

            Particularly with all the self awareness that the Greater school seem to have, is that something you believe possible or could see the point of?

            Also, if anger (stemming from Nurture, or rather lack of) was to be considered as a trigger for narcissism, and, if there was sufficient lack of genetic narc “hits” in the individual then could it follow that this type of narcissism was “treatable” or reversable?

            This ‘state’ is similar to the one that some empaths are in after sustained and prolonged abuse at the hands of a Greater…i wonder if one of the deciding factors is at what age the abuse occurs. Starting to think out loud so will stop there.

          41. Jenna says:

            ED, but the scientific publications are there in front of your eyes!

          42. P says:

            emodetec, you have an opinion, that’s fine. no one is “a” something, there are variations of low-empathy/ low-emotion (apathy) and NPD profiles. i wouldn’t disagree that NPD is on a psychopathy-spectrum, but i’m (also) not a psychologist. i myself am in the “b-cluster group” with bpd traits, have experienced therapy where diagnosis vs treatment was explained to me and something i experienced, and know some psychological theories from another field of social science. i’ve also experienced vast over-simplification and prototyping of my disorder on pop-psych forums, and know people who are unemotional (not that i can speak for anyone) who i personally feel are quite different from one of my explosively emotional, but non-empathic, abusive parents. i would consider that parent as being malevolently narcissistic, anti-social in terms of a conscience, high-functioning in society, but did not have the lack of emotion that many diagnosed psychopaths experience. i’m definitely not invested in a for eg. my PD can be caused by genetics (could be intergenerational trauma and adaptation), social or cranial trauma. when people say – the empaths, the narcs, the borderliners… and ascribe a character profile to them, it’s what we call reification and prototyping. that doesn’t mean that disorders can’t be typed and used to recognise certain individuals, but i think that observation not just ‘theories’ alone has to play a role. if you catch my drift. sorry if that’s no fun. i don’t think that people shouldn’t trust their common sense, gut instinct, life-experience and observation. those are survival skills and we all need to use them.

          43. Thanks for sharing, P. Your experience and thoughts are as valid if not more than any ‘professional’.
            I believe that the trust in any kind of authority or celebrity in the age of Internet is becoming stale, and old fashioned.

          44. P says:

            sorry, one line is missing. i’m not invested / don’t support a single, causal theory.

          45. P says:

            i would say that the extent to which social or biological factors play a role and the relationship between them, depends on the person, their social situation and their condition.

          46. No, the nurture theory is illogical because the majority of narcissists grew up in normal non narc families, with all opportunities afforded to them, and they are still narcissists. My sister is an example.
            What society does for them in these circumstances, is a better environment to mirror and blend better with the rest of us.
            My sister is well adjusted, but she exhibits all Narc behaviors with no exception.

          47. HG Tudor says:

            “The majority of narcissists grew up in non narc families”

            There are three problems with this statement.

            1. Once again you make a statement and peddle it as fact despite providing no basis for doing do;
            2. Empirically there is no evidence of this because
            A you cannot identify all narcissists ; and
            B you cannot know all their family/nurture background
            3. It is not supported by the experiences I have been involved in. By that I mean my own, those of other family members, people I have known in real life and also the experiences of many of the victims who I have engaged with when they have described their situations (and I have challenged them to provide independent evidence of the narcissist’s upbringing, not the narcissist’s own reportage). This is naturally anecdotal (something I regularly point out ) but supports the nature and nurture argument repeatedly.

            Finding empirical evidence is not going to happen because of the nature of the disorder. Your comment is not only anecdotally incorrect, it is baseless empirically.

          48. Many valid points, as always. You are brilliant, acutely insightful, the most intelligent man I’ve ever encountered. I cannot say met, because we haven’t met.
            In order to support the nurture argument you need a study as much as you need to support the nature argument, and there are no such studies in either direction.
            So you cannot with utmost certainty state this is nurture, and maybe nature.
            You can ask your readers to give you information on their narcs background and compile a little bit of data.
            You will see how many were abused, and how many weren’t.
            I can give you info on one I know or knew. My mother has been abused, yet she was an empath. My sister hasn’t been abused, we both grew up in a very nurturing empathic household with two healthy parents, yet I am an empath and she is a mid range narcissist. We were both treated equally, with the same amount of love.

            For the nurture argument to be true, all narcissists have to have been thru abuse, no exceptions.
            Then you need to quantify abuse, what kind of abuse this was, etc.

            The nature of the disorder is why it’s very difficult to study, reason why current theory is just a theory, and reason why it’s wrong.

          49. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for the compliments.

            As I explained, it is not empirically possible to garner the evidence but I didn’t advance the statements that you did.
            You do realise that golden children become narcissists too, there does not need to have been any abuse or neglect?

          50. The empirical evidence is present in…and you will like to hear this.. because you’re only able to ‘hear’ information related to yourself, well guess what dear…
            the empirical evidence is present in every single cell of your body.
            All you have to do is have your genome sequenced and you will see a little odd string there, that’s different from everybody else.
            Won’t you love that?

          51. HG Tudor says:

            That is not empirical evidence. I have made my point.

          52. emotion detective says:

            And I’ve made mine. How many cells are in HG’s body? I presume trillions since you’re 6’1″ tall..

          53. HG Tudor says:

            You have and therein lies your problem.

          54. Olol, what do you mean?
            Oh I know, I should have shared this only with you.. ?
            My problem right now is he’s been taken in custody yesterday, and I need to find out what happened.
            Thanks to you I understand why he gets violent, what causes the fury, and why it doesn’t stop.
            I’m very grateful to you HG. 🙂 (Smile only for you.)

          55. VFH says:

            OMG! Please. Make it stop.

          56. P says:

            not to dismiss what you’re saying but we’re talking so generally here. it’s not ‘illogical’ because many people who have been abused develop NPD, but there are different diagnostic profiles and environmental influences outside the family. narcissism is a basic trait and some can be more aggressively narcissistic than others, but NPD pertains to this lack of a core-self. what alot of people on pop-psych forums are talking about is a combination of ASPD/or psychopathy with NPD, the hype around “malevolent narcissism” – which is different from broader issues with narcissism. all the b-cluster disorders have issues with self-identity and hence, narcissism, and that can include annorexia and depression.
            i think you have to use your own experience with your sister to understand what’s going on with her.

            obviously some conditions are not neurotypical and need a different approach, psychology is just about how we deal with these issues on a social level. neurology and genetics can’t do that even if they provide us with information. i don’t foresee people with NPD or psychopathy being institutionalised just because we learn they’re not neurotypical.

          57. P says:

            yes sweeping statements aren’t exactly scientific!

          58. P says:

            to speculate further: the subset of people who were born with a different neurological structure, who can be classified as psychopathic but were never abused as children – are more rare than people who have NPD – which can be co-morbid with psychopathy where epigenetics play a role – from abuse (and what’s abuse, it’s anything where positive-self boundaries aren’t taught, which could also be ‘spoiling’). i also think that a person with affective impairment could develop a PD if they’re functioning in society while being isolated by their condition, because they’re driven by survival-thrival needs and hormones, but their ability to learn codes of conduct would also be affected. so the ‘psycho’ is also a person if they are able to perform social roles and can be narcissistically wounded. narcissism is one of our most basic, foundational features, it’s our individual sense of self, so how we form that psychological boundary (not just physical-instinctive) between ourselves and others is a personality feature, even if we mark conscience – internal depth – as ‘the soul’…and perhaps the combination of the two make up ‘the self’? i disagree that all psychopaths are these zen-like killers who lack a personality. that’s very rare. the personality of a psychopathic individual is what makes them so difficult to deal with and identify because they’re adaptive, they can have many personalities even if they lack an internal self that is clear to them. if they’re just killing machines, it’s easier to isolate them. we can’t deny that the personality is what integrates anyone in a society and not all personalities are responsible and sociable or have a coherent self, which relies on memory, narratives in combination with sensory responses. when a person loses their memory and has to rebuild their selves through neuroplasticity, their personalities can change. we even teach and reward low-empathy in men, empathy is also a shifting cultural value. Kristeva, a French linguist says that we’re taught a form of narcissistic selfhood through abjection: rejecting those who are not like us. our sense of compassion towards others and ourselves is never purely emotional, it also requires cognitive processes. to conclude: yes, NPD is a PD with many underlying causes.

          59. emotion detective says:

            Do you even know P what it is you are talking about here? I doubt it..
            If you want to debate, could you define terms you use starting with personality, and explain why you think narcissism is a personality disorder?

      3. sarabella says:

        I think ED you spent too long on a certain forum. It is a helpful place but spreads a certain culture around narcissism and healing and has a bullying environment at times. You are not a scientist nor are you trained in anything academically related to any of this, I can almost guarantee. You have a lot of personal theories and look for supporting evidence. You sound more and more entitled yourself with all your grand claims to knowledge that somehow, you alone know about. A covert expert. A 5 second google search of Google Scholar can debunk half your theories or at least, show them to be far too narrow. The causes of narcissm and psychopathology are many. Period.

        1. emotion detective says:

          I don’t spend any time on forums, I barely have time to take a shower.
          There is only one cause for everything like daylight is caused by the sun, not both the sun and the moon.
          Simple logic dear.

          1. sarabella says:

            No, ED. That is NOT how life works. Your thinking is too narrow to take seriously anymore. Its shallow, lacks imagination and analytical skills. You have an idea and you are painting everything with the one idea. Science. Logic. But you are missing some critical pieces and its clear, you aren’t able to shift your thinking, provide proof of your scientific theories and thus… just seem to be making alot of noise. Cite this research you claim to know that emphatically points all narcissism to genetic patterning, or you pretty much look a little silly at this point. Its the next logical step darling.

      4. Disgusted says:

        Interesting comments regarding narcissism research. ED…i know in my mums case and her mothers case their nacissism was not purely genetic it was their childhood. Ive yet to meet a narcissist and ive known a few, that did not have skme sort of abuse growing up. Same goes for narc victims each one ive known had something unresolved and it usually had to do with a parent growing up. Psychopaths i feel it could be a mix of genetics and upbringing or just genetics. Im not a researcher tho so thats just my observations.
        I am interested in information regarding narcissism/empath hsp and health. Ive noticed many victims of abuse suffer horribly with their health and theres a direct connection between internalized stress and disease. Narcissists seem to cope differently with stress and arent as prone to disease.
        Someone on here posted about stress and autoimmune diseases being triggered and ive seen this in someone close to me. They are a hsp and feel stress deeply. Everything affects them. They were diagnosed with Crohns a year ago and the stress still triggers flares within them. Cancers another big one and ive seen in my line of work many who have suffered traumas develop cancers and breast cancer in particular.
        I do think narcissists have an advantage health wise in their ability to shut emotions off and avoid stress,yet its very unhealthy emotionally.

        1. emotion detective says:

          Stress plays a big role in complex PTSD in victims of abuse, but I do not think that serotonin alone can cause serious diseases that affect the whole body, and are as fatal as cancer. If it were true, our existence wouldn’t be possible, as widespread as it is. Serotonin is a necessary agent in modern doses, but it’s not deadly.
          The diseases you mentioned above are directly related to the genetic disorder that is narcissism.

      5. Curious says:

        Not to interject but golden children do face a form of abuse. I hate admitting to this but from all ive read and learned golden children have been abused too. It sets them up for conditional love and having to please the narc parent to keep recieving it.

      6. E. B. says:

        Hi Emotion Detective,
        Re: “… the majority of narcissists grew up in normal non narc families, with all opportunities afforded to them, and they are still narcissists. My sister is an example. ”

        The people I have known who became narcissists either came from dysfunctional families or they were raised by a relative with a Cluster B disorder (e.g. raised by a narcissistic grandparent because the mother worked outside the home) in the first 4 years of their lives.
        *Witnessing* one of the parents being abused by the other narcissistic parent IS a form of abuse too, even if those children are not hit or emotionally abused by any of their parents.
        Another important thing to consider is that *not* all children are treated the same in narcissistic families. It is a lie that all children have the same opportunities. Narcissistic parents treat their children differently. The Scapegoat will never be able to have the same opportunities as the Golden Child, and the child who becomes a narcissist did not have it *all* either.
        I am not a psychologist but I have read about trauma in early childhood and its effects. Trauma in early childhood changes the brain.

        Have you heard of Dr. Bruce D. Perry? He is a child psychiatrist and researcher. Who focuses on the impact of traumatic experiences (like abuse and neglect) on the developing brain in early childhood.
        Child Trauma Academy:
        Maltreatment and the Developing Brain:
        He has written books and there are videos on YouTube too.
        I just thought it might be of interest to you or other people reading here.

        As for Indy, I have read several of her comments. She is open-minded, caring, compassionate and treats everyone with respect. She is not a narcissist, ED.

        1. VFH says:

          Hello E.B. I hadn’t seen your post when I sent mine (musing on the age at which abuse happens being a deciding factor on the possibilities for “recovery”) so your info (as well as your references Indy and of course HG) is interesting…..

          I know of the impact on a child’s brain resulting from abuse, does the brain of an adult alter too I wonder.

          Synapses in particular parts of the brain can be ruined from drug abuse and never recover. The “non addictive” behaviour has to be relearnt and the individual careful not to be sucked back into the vortex via people or environments that cause triggers.

          And essentially therefore that recovery comes down to personal choice of doing or not doing. And that’s also what I asked HG about – the choice of good over evil.

          I’d be interested to know anyone else’s ideas on this….

          1. E. B. says:

            Hi VFH,

            “does the brain of an adult alter too I wonder. ”

            Interesting question. I do not know but maybe other people reading here can answer it.
            Your question reminds me of a TV programme about war veterans and PTSD.
            Some people became physically aggressive after a mission and made significant character changes. One of them said he could not control his anger anymore. Changes in his brain chemistry??

          2. VFH says:

            Hi E.B. thanks for replying, I’ve heard something along those lines about ptsd too….and yes I wonder if the abuse happens to an adult that it’s the chemical rather than brain structure that changes. For that comparable we’d need an awful lot of cat scan results across infant/adult brain matter (minus the ones with chicken nuggets in though!) My guess is that’s not been done yet…

            I reckon this part of our conversation will be lost in the rest of the thread going on around it but hopefully not as I too would love to hear from anyone if they know some facts.

          3. E. B. says:

            Hi VFH,

            Some publications about traumatic events in adults (combat veterans, car accident, rape) who developed PTSD refer to *chemical imbalances* or *activity changes (in the brain) only while there are other publications which mention *structural changes* as well, like for instance, the volume of the hippocampus and the amygdala, which are supposed to be smaller in adults with PTSD according to MRI scans. However, some people are born with smaller amygdalas (!) so there is no certainty that PTSD is responsible for these structural changes.


            I have some books about Trauma and PTSD. If you wish, I will have a look at them and let you know next week (or earlier, if I can).

          4. VFH says:

            Hi E.B.

            Thank you for that link and yes I’d be interested to hear what comes from the books you mention.

            Whatever the cause of narcissism and sociopathy, I believe it started as part of Mother Nature’s plan (I’m not religious but have no other explanation for how we all got here….science and mother nature just make more sense to me) as the personality type has definite strengths as well as the potential for diabolical consequences. Now I’m not suggesting psychopaths are superheroes but i feel Spiderman’s motto “with great power comes great responsibility” does lend itself here.

            I think it all just went a bit wrong somewhere along the way….perhaps simply because it was left in the hands of humankind.

          5. sarabella says:

            It is not something I could have done a few years ago, but once the mental framework of narcisssim sinks in, and you obtain some objectivity ( took me 3 years), there is nothing so magical about it. In fact, when I put on my pure narc lenses and look at people (look for their weaknesses, what to exploit, and what I might use) Life becomes totally lacking in magic. It looses a deep level of beauty. Gone is the passion, gone is the poetry, gone is the music. Life becomes entirely humam centered and narrow. The power is there for everyone to see in why narc machinations work, but whether you can or not is the question. Until this blog, I was missing the switch to finally and fully turn off the waterfall he created. It is off now and as I look back, its rather sad… all that and to create absolutely nothing out of that much energy?! Wow. Imagine is one bit of it had been real? It would have been the love worthy of the Gods. But it wasn’t real. Energy stirred up based on lies, deceipt and spiritual abuse because it is the abuse of spirit or, the energy behind art, poetry, music and writing. But there is a place for it. To get things done, to drive some things. Only most unaware narcs do not use that power well and thus violate so many moral and ethical standards. This is where they go deeply wrong. Power and a keen mind used for all the wrong reasons.

          6. VFH says:

            Yes Sarabella that’s exactly what I mean “with great power comes great responsibility.”

            I also echo your sentiments regarding narc lenses. Part of the hideous realisation of what I’d been married to and had a family with hit me first with hideous clarity but left me having lost all innocence and a feeling of knowing too much. I didn’t want that knowledge. It’s horrible. I think without my children’s needs driving me to get up every day I could well have slipped under my duvet and felt there was no point whatsoever of ever getting up again.

            But here we are. I’ve learnt from that darkness though and am glad of this place where we can question, answer and mull and hopefully start to see a bit of light again.

          7. sarabella says:

            I know that at the lowest of low in what happened to me, it was in fact only my daughter that kept me getting up as well. And I wasn’t even married to mine. I also didn’t want this knowledge. I was reflecting today of the mental and emotional state I was in when I returned from seeing him and when it got really awful. I was a walking shell. The only real way to describe it was he gutted me. I have been thinking lately of the process of mirroring and in many ways, I do it. But how I do it is if I see characteristics of someone that I admire, and I have some similar traits in me, I feel good being that part of myself. I have a work friend and when we see each other, we just start laughing and bouncing off of each other. She tells me that I make her laugh. I say no, she makes me laugh. And its funny cause I really can’t tell why our dynamic is so fun together.

            So when I think back to me feeling like a cavernous shell, is that how HE is inside? That I became it as well, cause that is what he is?

            I am seeing this isn’t a good thing to only express myself when it’s safe and I see someone that mirrors me. I know why it is there, I was always hiding and trying to stay off of everyone’s radar. I need to learn to express myself regaredless of whether I find safety in someone being like me.

            But understanding that dynamic make me wonder, the bereft, gutted, sucker puncked feeling I read many victims experience, is this them? Have they recreated themselves in us? In this case, his personality was so dominant and forceful, he planted himself in me before I could do anything about it… and it’s like he sucked everything out and left in me … him. Its hard to define becuase on the outside of him, he loves life. Charming, funny, bold, brazen, no filters (due to no conscience and all I think). And that is what was so confusing, so maybe, that feeling I had of being gutted was I mirrored him in me or he created that.

            Does it make sense? I am having a hard time explaining this as I feel like my old self more and more and I am shocked at how depleted and empty I felt when he and I were in communication.

          8. E. B. says:


            In one of the books (Betrayal Trauma by Jennifer Freyd) they mention patients with damage to the hippocampus and to the amygdala but they do not say anything if the damage was there *before* the traumatic experience. Maybe there is more information about it in Van der Kolk’s The Body Keeps the Score.

            In order to know if there are structural changes *after* trauma in people with PTSD, researchers would have to study the brain (using MRI scans, etc.) in new-born individuals, how parts of the brain develop and if there are structural alterations at different stages in life. I doubt parents would agree to let their children take part in this kind of research. It would be possible to do it with rats or with other animals but maybe the results would not be the same as with humans.

        2. So how do you explain narcissists who weren’t abused? Did they get to become narcissists in some other way, and what way would that be?
          How do you explain people who were severely abused but did not become narcissists?
          Doesn’t that give you pause?
          Oh, you will say, there are many ways to become a narcissist, nobody really can tell for sure, blah blah blah.. yes, many ways to get precisely the same exact behaviors described by HG Tudor, and verified by Vaknin.
          That means all parents who abused their children used the same abuse techniques to reach the exact same results.. hmmm… Maybe they were all reading from the same manual of abuse?

          If you don’t use logic, EB, you get nonsense parading as scientific research.

          Now, did the people who wrote those articles and research have been abused by a narcissist? Would you say they understand narcissistic abuse without having a clue about it from experience?

          There are so many problems with the nurture argument, it’s just a beginning.

          How did Donald Trump become a sociopath, having been spoiled by the riches and support from both parents who bailed him out of every financial hole he got the family into. No mention of any abuse.

          For this argument to be true, ALL narcs had to have been through the exact same abuse and trauma to exhibit the same behavior.

          1. VFH says:

            But being spoiled by riches and bailed out of any situation etc by both parents IS abuse, isn’t it?

            Albeit in a different form, but abuse nonetheless. It creates an unrealistic environment in which to grow, prevents coping strategies from being formed, offers no reasoning capabilities, sense of entitlement, taking anything other than crystal-cut praise as a personal slight, the list goes on.

          2. E. B. says:

            Emotional Detective,
            Being neither a psychiatrist nor a psychologist, I do not know the answers to all your questions so I will answer those ones I can.

            re: “So how do you explain narcissists who weren’t abused? Did they get to become narcissists in some other way, and what way would that be? ”
            IME, people with a NPD or any other Cluster B disorder have been abused as children.
            When I read some of your comments I have the impression that you refer to Overt Abuse only and we have to consider other forms too. Covert/Hidden Abuse can be so subtle that it can go unnoticed. It is not administered just at once but gradually over the years.
            HG commented in “I Object” that his kind see everyone as an object.
            If they want to control their environment to achieve their aims, then they need to manipulate *all* people they consider *their objects* including children. Manipulating other people’s feelings (inducing fear, obligation, guilt) is a form of psychological/emotional abuse. Narcissists have *power* over their children and can brainwash them easily (Emotional Abuse).
            If there is *at least one narcissistic parent/grandparent/ aunt involved in raising a child* (not those narcissists who come to visit once in a while), then the child will be abused in one way or another. ALL children are abused in a narcissistic family. A mother with an emotionally unavailable husband who uses her son/daughter as an emotional surrogate partner is a form of emotional abuse (Emotional Incest).

            re: “How do you explain people who were severely abused but did not become narcissists? ”

            Psychologist Alice Miller wrote that children from a narcissistic family who had regular contact to a “Helping Witness” (an empathetic, non narcissistic individual like a caring grandparent, aunt, neighbour, etc.) during the first 3-4 years of their lives, who were seen, heard and validated, will not become narcissists.I would like to add (and this is my opinion from what I have experienced) that this only works as long as the narcissistic parents, who have control over their children, do not turn the child against the empathetic non narcissistic individual (“Helping Witness”).

            Narcissists treat their children differently. Even *twins* experience different forms of abuse from their narcissistic parents. I believe it is upbringing and not genetics why someone has a NPD. This is my opinion. Maybe I am wrong but I have seen this in two different families with twins. One of them in my parent’s family and it does not seem to be anything wrong with their genes. One of the twins became a full-blown narcissist and the other twin, who did not, married a narcissist and has been depressed all his life. My parent once told me about the differences being raised in the same family. He complained his narcissistic mother used to tell him that she loved all her children the same but her behaviour did not match her words.

            re: “did the people who wrote those articles and research have been abused by a narcissist? Would you say they understand narcissistic abuse without having a clue about it from experience? ”
            It seems that not all of them have been abused. Sometimes they write things that show they do not know what it is like to come from a narcissistic family. Another possibility is that they were abused but they are in denial.

            re: “How did Donald Trump become a sociopath, having been spoiled by the riches and support from both parents who bailed him out of every financial hole he got the family into. No mention of any abuse. ”
            Please see VFH’s answer. Spoiling a child is a form of abuse, ED.
            Many people say they have never been abused and they had/have caring parents while their behaviour reveals the opposite.

          3. First of all, I’m not Emotional Detective, I’m a Logic Detective.
            Having said that, the problems with the Nurture Theory are as follows:
            1. children 👶 do not remember anything up to the third year of life, so any ‘abuse’ perpetrated either physical or emotional has no effect on them later in life.
            Abuse that takes place later in the formative years is often repressed until it’s released during therapy.
            This is a self defense mechanism our brains shield us from. It is a powerful safeguard to prevent interference in human development.
            I’m not stating that there is no effect abuse has on us at all, it does otherwise we wouldn’t suffer PTSD symptoms.
            Abuse can only have temporary effect, and it is treatable, and reversible. Abuse cannot cause permanent damage such as loss of positive emotions in the entire spectrum.
            2. Our brain is protected by a thick skull, so no physical damage takes place to the areas that store emotions. The brain remains intact during and after abuse, there is no loss of neurons reported in any study.
            3. Variety of backgrounds. It seems that a majority of narcissists were abused, and it may be true because naturally the disorder is genetic, passed from generation to generation. Sometimes it affects the entire family, but often the majority of family members are empaths with the proverbial, or is it, black 🐑 sheep.
            4. For the narcissistic personality to occur, the abuse would need to come in equal quality and quantity to render exactly same results.
            It is well documented by both Tudor and Vaknin, as well as a multitude of empath victims that all narcissists exhibit exactly same characteristics in their behavior, with no exception, no matter their background, upbringing, gender, or age.

            Abuse simply is not powerful enough to cause permanent incurable damage.

            5. Abuse doesn’t explain the physical characteristics many narcissists exhibit: lack of startle reflex, higher pain threshold, physical problems with extremities, lower skin sensitivity, etc.
            These would indicate a need for physical violence perpetrated by the narcisstic parent that would injure the central nervous system, and or the brain itself.
            Emotional abuse could not accomplish any of those issues.

            I may add more later.

            As to the Helping Witness, in my family only my sister was a narcissist, so she had plenty of helping witnesses.
            In fact, everyone was at her back and call, this is how she trained everyone to behave. From a very early age she manipulated my mother to believe that I hurt her physically, smearing me repeatedly lying to her, to create an image of a helpless victim, thereby pushing me away from my mom. She managed to create a deep wedge until adulthood, so I was the one left without a helping witness, as my dad travelled abroad and was absent from home almost my entire childhood, and when he returned to stay home, my sister started doing the same thing, creating a wedge between me and my dad. She viciously destroyed my beloved toy when she was less than five years old. This means a narcissist is a narcissist before birth, and abuse or no abuse changes nothing.

            It only points to it being a genetic disorder.

          4. E. B. says:

            @ED AKA Logic Detective 🙂

            Thank you for replying. Sorry I did not spell your nickname correctly. It was not intentional.

            Your sister sounds awful and I am sorry what you have been going through with her.
            Do you think if your mother were a compassionate, empathetic individual with a mind of her own she would let a young child (your sister or any other individual) manipulate her into damaging your (mother-child) relationship? Young children do not have the *power* and control to manipulate an adult parent, unless this adult has serious problems of their own. It does happen the other way round as in an adult parent tuning a child against their siblings or the other parent.

            I have read that the reason why adults cannot remember abusive events before age 3-4 is because the human brain is not fully developed, especially language. If it happens later in life and we do not remember, it is as you said a self-defence mechanism.

            It is not good to underestimate the effects of abuse. It is usually long-term and in the worst cases it can last a life-time (e.g. chronic illnesses, C-PTSD).
            I am well aware that I will never able to repair the damage that was done to me but only part of it. It upsets me when I hear the so-called experts say that chronic illnesses (as if they meant *all* of them, including the worst ones like ALS and MS) can be healed because this is not true.

            Maybe I am wrong but I do not believe that there is a genetic predisposition why some people become narcissists and others do not. There may be exceptions, though, but this is not what I have seen and experienced. I think it is upbringing. For example, my empathetic traits, which make me a prey to narcissists, have been instilled in me by my family of origin from an early age onwards, either by words or behaviours.

          5. emotion detective says:

            Noone said anything about genetic predisposition. I refer you to basic biology coursework from high school to review genetics and how DNA works. It’s been way over twenty years and I still remember.
            There is no such thing as genetic predisposition.
            Btw, I stopped reading at ‘I read’.
            I don’t read, I think, and so should you.

          6. HG Tudor says:

            If you don’t read, how do you know what EB wrote to reply to it? Oh yes, you make things up.

          7. This is not what I meant. People rely too much on authority to allow it to form their reality. Look at what religions and governments have done to our societies. The monarchy is a joke, the Vatikan is a seat of child abusers.
            Religions will be outlawed in several centuries.

          8. E. B. says:


            What you told me was plain rude and I do not want you to treat me disrespectfully.

            I have the impression that you think your views are the only valid ones and that you are not interested in exchanging different opinions about this subject with any of us.

            I believe everyone has something valuable to share. We all have different backgrounds and experiences with narcissists in our lives and we can learn from each other. I have learnt a lot from open-minded people like HG and other readers since I came here.

          9. emotion detective says:

            No, you are the one who is disrespectful. How dare you suggest there was something wrong with my mother. You have no business talking about her this way. Suggesting that maybe I’m clueless or lying about my own family history, etc. trying to bend facts to support your convenient understanding of reality.
            You are the one who is close minded. The nature theory simply threatens your religious point of view. Admit it.

          10. HG Tudor says:

            Thar she blows!

          11. You be quiet, Tudor.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            No I won’t.

          13. I’m sorry, I just woke up when I wrote this, didn’t have my coffee yet, if that’s an acceptable excuse. My empathy just kicked in..

          14. Indy says:

            I thought I would share below a YouTube on what HG Tudor says about his experience of emotions. It is very informative on his experience. We cannot deny his experience as it is his.

          15. E. B. says:

            No, ED. I will not take your abuse. Your aggression, projection, deflection, blame-shifting and other attempts to twist my words have completely failed. Not only do they not have any effect on me but also they are boring, a waste of time and I will not respond.

          16. NarcAngel says:

            I understand your response to E,D and for the most part have adopted that myself. I dont want to restrict anyones right to speak, and by now the regulars know that her posts are inaccurate and usually inflammatory screams for attention, but new people may accept some of her ramblings and “observations” as truth and that would be very misleading and confusing for them despite the responses to her nonsense. I sometimes picture a new comer thinking :what or who do I believe? You have tried as well as others to be reasonable but I think E.D is quickly losing an audience for her “research”.

          17. E. B. says:

            Hi NarcAngel,

            Haha 🙂 I almost spilled fennel tea on my laptop keyboard when reading your comment. Maybe you should put a warning at the beginning of your comments: *Please do not drink anything while reading this!* 🙂

            According to ED, it seems that the nature theory threatens my supposedly “religious point of view”. Have I become a “religious atheist”?? What comes next? Are we in Arkham Asylum???

          18. You should be looking till tomorrow rather than attacking me here.

          19. Blah, blah.. more passive aggressive from you and Indy. If I dress up aggressiveness in niceties and kissing us, that’s somehow okay.
            The normals like you are worse than narcissists. They at least have an excuse to behave the way they do, they have really no choice, since they lack positive emotions, and sometimes they even make an actual effort, like HG Tudor.

          20. NarcAngel says:

            Emotional Dick
            Ok we’ve established narcs have an excuse. Whats yours?

          21. Indy says:

            Beautiful demonstration of healthy boundaries and assertiveness. ED is wrong, you were not being passive aggressive and I applaud you in demonstrating how to assertively stand up to someone that is being disrespectful and verbally abusive.

            Yes, ED, you are being verbally abusive here. Stop it. Name calling and belittling are not unacceptable. Every time someone disagrees with you and provides evidence you, attack with verbal name calling and belittling others. Not appropriate behavior.

          22. emotion detective says:

            Wow you don’t miss a single chance to kiss ass, do you?
            Your mouth must smell foul by now.

          23. Indy says:

            I see you clearly. Get help. I will have nothing more to do with you and the nonsense you spew. However, you try to verbally attack or abuse anyone here, be prepared to be called Out on it. It’s not acceptable at a site for people recovering from all types of abuse and being gaslit with lies to be exposed to the same by you. Do some self reflection as there are alot of people that have issue with your inappropriate behavior. Oh, that’s right….insight into your own behavior isn’t your thing. Commence with the projections to my deaf ears. You are irrelevant to me.

          24. Twilight says:


            You are blind to what you do
            You are nothing more then a bully
            very sad you don’t see this, yet because of the knowledge being brought forth from HG and his works, you will be seen for exactly what you are!

          25. MLA - Clarece says:

            Hi Indy & EB!
            You both have displayed diplomacy and patience. What else can ya do?

          26. NarcAngel says:

            Clarece Indy EB

            Some people just need a high five.
            In the face.
            With a chair.

          27. MLA - Clarece says:

            Virtual fist bump to you on that one!

          28. Indy says:

            Nada. It’s a brick wall. A good lesson in trying to reason with the unreasonable. Like I said on another article, I get stuck in these situations where I try to explain and reason, thinking that looks give resides somewhere ….but far too long.

          29. MLA - Clarece says:


          30. E. B. says:

            Hi Clarece,

            There is nothing we can do. ED brought up an interesting subject we could talk about and I would have liked that you and other readers would join in but now it seems to me that she is not on this blog to learn anything at all but to bait us and get negative attention.

          31. MLA - Clarece says:

            Well I’m more than happy to have interesting conversations and back and forth with you EB!!!

          32. E. B. says:

            Clarece, me too! 🙂 I read your comments whenever I can. I find them very interesting.

            Did you watch the WNAAD summit on You Tube yesterday?
            It was too late where I live so I watched part of it only. Yesterday they emailed me a link to the first interview with the WNAAD founder Bree Bonchay. It is a compressed audio file (.mp3) and they let us download it. This is good for people like me who have a slow internet connection. I am looking forward to HG’s interview. Sandra L. Brown and Lisa Romano are well-known authors too. I wish they had Pete Walker among the special guests to speak about C-PTSD and Emotional Flashbacks.

          33. MLA - Clarece says:

            Awww, thanks EB! I snuck watching about 15 minutes at work, but nothing that captivating yet. lol I’m obviously excited to listen to HG’s interview especially with him finagling his extra 10 minutes! I’m also excited to hear Christine Louis Canonville (she is incredibly informative), and lastly Sandra Brown.

          34. E. B. says:

            Clarece, the extra 10 minutes! 🙂 Will you be tracking the time??
            Now I remember you had mentioned Christine Louis Canonville in one of your previous comments. Thank you! I will hear her interview too.

          35. E. B. says:

            Thank you, Indy.

          36. *kissing ass

          37. *holier than thou *professional degree

          38. I forgot to add a very important fact.
            6. Narcisssits do not feel emotional abuse because they lack empathy, and the rest of positive emotions. They don’t feel sadness.
            So whatever shouting or screaming is doled out to them, it is only negative fuel which is fuel they need.
            You cannot emotionally abuse a narcissist.

            I think I’ve made my point by now.

          39. Indy says:

            Hi ED,

            Just to clarify, Narcissists are not robots without any emotions. I think you know this, just making sure. Think Data on Star Trek for how that appears. Narcissists experience several emotions, though perhaps more limited/suppressed than those that are more empathetic in nature. Those emotions HG speaks of that he experiences (Correct me if I am wrong HG) include Anger(Forms of anger include Rage, Irritation, Annoyance), Pride, Jealousy, Bitterness, Contentment, Amusement, and likely more. HG reports he does not “do” Joy, Love, or Sadness. Now, I would challenge that Contentment and Amusement are dimmed forms of Joy. But that is another discussion and debate beyond this.

            The comment you made on narcissists not feeling “emotional abuse”……this particularly disturbed me. We cannot state what others feel or do not feel, particularly when they report they do experience it. That is invalidation, which is a form of emotional abuse. Many people do not know this and I do not think you were trying to be abusive. It is often that we are raised with parents that openly invalidate our emotions and thus we think this is OK to do to ourselves and others. This is actually harmful. We can only state what we ourselves feel and experience. To say that HG or other narcissists do not feel emotional abuse is invalidating. Be careful of engaging in invalidation as it is easy to also do to ourselves as well and can lead to many issues, including depression, etc. (Example: “I should not be sad, I’m pathetic” is self invalidating self talk for example). One of the tools of narcissistic parents that they use on their children is invalidating their feelings. Here are some examples of invalidating: “You do not feel sad, I will make you sad if you don’t stop crying!” “You are not scared, go back to your room.”, “Tears are for weaklings”. This often leads to children that loose connection with knowing what they feel without being told by others. Often happens in those with BPD and NPD and co-dependents and children that have been emotionally and physically abused.

            Just to clarify, as it is very painful to hear that a narcissist cannot be emotionally abused, because it is simply not true. We all can be abused, even animals can be emotionally abused. Neglect of care, rage against an animal…these are all forms of abuse.

          40. MLA - Clarece says:

            Thank you for that response Indy! I almost came unglued, but had to leave for work upon reading that a child before the age of 3 wouldn’t even remember abuse….My God! Let’s just trash and burn the works of John Bradshaw, John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth for starters.
            I can’t even go there today…Eh!

          41. Indy says:

            Hi MLA,
            I know, I know. Lives of great work in one of the fields I have specialized in for 20 yrs, developmental psych **poof** I think of those children from the 80s-90’s in Romanian orphanages and its impact on them. Tons of attachment research from that error shows that children are severely impacted before age 3. Well, I have seen it personally in clinical settings where children with attachment disorders as young as 2 look like early autism in some cases. This is real. I know, preaching to the choir 🙂 I appreciate your support, I felt the same when I saw it.

          42. MLA - Clarece says:

            Lolll on the **poof**. Duh! It’s all inaccurate.

          43. Your view is entirely from our perspective. And it’s understandable, however inaccurate.

        3. I will take a sweeping guess at why there is so much protest and there will be a lot of protest against the results, although they will be undeniable due to the nature of our DNA code, similarly to the digital computer code. It’s for you to see with your own eyes, it’s a row of 1010001110100100…. etc.
          You change one digit and the code is broken. You change one letter, one space in the function.php in your WordPress blog, and your site is down.
          The same is true with your DNA sequence. One change among the four bases A, G, C, T, and you don’t have your emotions. You are a narcissist.

          So, what’s the problem with the nature argument? Why complicate what is that simple?

          You think: how could it be that some people could not be afforded the same human experience and not feel emotions such as love, empathy, joy, happiness, regret, remorse, guilt, etc?
          Ohhh… but God wouldn’t allow it! Weren’t be created in the image of God?

          You see, therein lies the problem, and the protest.

          There will be protest from psychologists, because their convoluted Grand sounding theories are sham. There will be protest from people who are therapists because they will lose clients. There will be protest from church going folks. And from people who make money off of the false theory, helping people to scapegoat the evil narcissist, and feel better about themselves…

      7. Twilight says:


        Hell usually it is NA that make me spit whatever it is I am drinking when reading her comments, I do believe you have out did her today on that one.
        HGs creature craves your potent pure fuel. Then stating Indy is his IPSS here. I wonder are you feeling a little jealousy.
        I once told you I would debate you were not a super empath, and you just go right on and prove this to be true, continuously over and over. You didn’t even heed the warning of a foolishish man looks wise when he is quiet.
        You may want to go and take a very long look in the mirror and reevaluate things.

        1. I suspect it’s not only his creature inside of him that craves me..

          But besides that, time and time again you narcs fail to see that we also have narc radars on. What happened on this thread is a lot of silent readers who don’t comment, only read, thousands of them, see clearly who is a narc and who isn’t, no matter your manipulations.
          We have an empath sense you don’t know about, and so you’re careless with how you comment. So do carry on.
          It’s got zero impact on me.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            And what you don’t see is the multitude of readers who have contacted me privately noting what you are.

          2. You mean all your facade pieces contacted your creature? 😉

          3. HG Tudor says:


          4. Twilight says:


            Did you just insinuate I was a narc?

            Well you are right many don’t comment and yes they see who is the narc and who isn’t.

            You go comfort yourself with that suspected idea his creature and more craves you if that is what gets you through the night. Those that are fully aware know the truth.

            I once read be careful of pointing your finger, point down and see how many are pointing back at you, you have just said this about yourself 3x over.

      8. penny dropped says:

        I swear ED and Vashti are one and the same!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You could be forgiven for thinking that and in one respect you are correct.

          They are two separate people.

    5. penny dropped says:

      VFH… my interest is piqued by your statement….
      . “and, therefore whether it might be “a thing”. Like lack of startle reflex/lack of body odour is.”

      Do you mean those physiological things are more prevalent in narcs? a narc thing? Also interested to know where you found out such info.

      Thanks in advance 🙂

      1. VFH says:

        Hi Penny Dropped

        I came across the lack of startle reflex/body odour in my ‘trying to make sense of everything’ phase post-discard. Google can be a wonderful thing! I typed in literally anything going through my head and common threads started showing about sociopathy/toxic individuals etc and it went from there.

        All the weird stuff that came back to me as the fog of his abuse lifted, I researched it all. My ex had zero body odour despite doing a physical job for a living. It was one of the things I loved about him actually, and mentioned it to him – how unusual/lucky it/he was etc. Low and behold, my research threw up other people who’d noticed the same thing commenting on it via blogs….

        Re the startle reflex, my ex was a great watcher of horror films (i am not) but whenever even just a tense moment in anything on telly happened – where I would jump or be edge of seat with anticipation/held breath – he would be sitting calmly. No response What So Ever. Nada.

        Again, I’d mention it to him you know as you do in a couple just chatting….nothing odd in his response to me about either topic at the time. It was only since he left that these things became research-worthy to me.

        My memory fails me today, i can’t recall her exact info so please don’t quote me, but….an osteopath friend said it makes sense as body odour/startle reflex are linked to the pituitary gland (which has been scientifically proven smaller in studies into the physical makeup of people with psychopathy) and also the fight/flight response which can be stunted – quite literally frozen in shock – if severe abuse is experienced in someone’s formative years (birth to age 6/7 apparently). Same with dreams (or rather lack of, seemingly for both the narc and his victims eventually) and cool head kept under what others would find stressful situations. Explains why “they” (sorry HG) can lie so easily too, scientifically as well as just from their zero remorse position.

        I’ve come up with nothing on the foot health thing but as i mentioned, a couple of other friends have said about it so I wonder if it could well be another narcissistic ‘anomaly’.

        Fascinating stuff albeit stemming from a terrible subject (both for the abuser and abused.)

        Any of it familiar to you PD?

      2. Indy says:

        Hi Penny Dropped,
        Sorry to intrude on the convo, just wanted to share what I recently read in a book that actually states these ideas too though did not give references. I have read studies on reduced galvanic skin response and startle reflex in psychopaths/sociopathic individuals, they did not specify narcissists alone. I do not know if lack of body odor has been formally studied. My guess, is that it is a common observation based on the lack of “sweating it” in stress situations, thus perhaps a reduced tendency to produce body odor due to this reduced sweat response during stressful situations. Just a guess.

      3. penny dropped says:

        Gah…. I just spent ages writing back, and then it wouldn’t post, now it’s disappeared.

        Can’t be arsed to do it all again at the moment, so will just say that the lack of body odour was definitely something I noticed, and thought odd, so it was interesting to me to see that others had noticed similar. 🙂

      4. VFH says:

        There does seem to be a pattern doesn’t there.

        I wonder what came first, chicken or egg. As in the chemical/physical makeup of a person or the psychological?

        One of my theories based on the lack of body odour thing is to do with us, as individuals, being guided by our ‘animal’ instincts. The personal scent we have has a huge amount to do with how attractive we are to others (scientific fact.) Way back when, caveman times for instance, this helped prevent too much inbreeding….it’s all subconscious but powerful stuff.

        Masked quite a lot my modern day paraphernalia but still, it’s there. It’s in our physiological makeup.

        SO. If an individual is born without personal scent… they would not be as attractive as others…. fall to the back of the line in selection and therefore in their capacity to be able to further the human race (which mother nature obviously rates quite highly on her list of things we should do whilst on the planet. )

        SO….people without this “skill” to attract and procreate have to do/possess other things in order to compensate and their other senses are heightened. Supersized. As can happen with people who have impaired sight/hearing; their other senses are raised, sometimes quite considerably.

        Maybe narcissists have been blessed with those hypnotic eyes because that’s the only way they can lure us in to notice them initially. I remember the first day you ex used his, I’d known him for ages and he’d always been quietly beavering away km the background almost unnoticeable until that one day he turned on the tractor beam – everything around me disappeared and time stopped momentarily.

        As for everything that follows….they make the choice to use these incredible powers either for good or evil….dependant on the environments they come into contact with.

      5. penny dropped says:

        “You could be forgiven for thinking that and in one respect you are correct.

        They are two separate people.”

        My comment was deliberately phrased…. I note you picked up on the ambiguity therein 😉

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed I did, the Penny Dropped a long time ago, Penny Dropped!

  26. Giulia says:

    So you saying you are a victim of yourself, yet still a victim, someone to sympathize with, someone to help. And strangely enough it’s this cry for help that we (empaths) hear louder than anything else. We tell ourselves forget the horrible things, they happened only because he was suffering and in need of help, I can fix that, I can help him, I can listen to him and understand and he will forget and be whole again….
    I am a believer, and I believe that as long as we are alive we can be saved and how that happens is a mystery.

  27. Carroll says:

    Good article! HG, are you bitter?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I am.

      1. indiglowsky says:

        1.) Do you hold bitterness more than other emotions? What is your most frequently experienced emotion? My recent ex-trickster felt bitterness intensely and identified it as a prime emotion for him. I rarely feel this emotion consciously. Curious if it is common among narcissists.

        2.) Do you know the source of your bitterness? Is it singular? Is it MatriNarc?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. I would not say so. Power.
          2. I cannot say for certain, but it would not be completely inaccurate to suggest it stems from MatriNarc ultimately.

          1. Indy says:

            Hmmm, I have never considered Power as an emotion but as an experience of dominance….”the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events”.. Do your docs agree with the experience of power as an emotion?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            No, so to answer it another way, often there is no prevailing emotion.

          3. Indy says:

            Thank you for clarifying that. I can see why boredom would creep in. For me, when I feel nothing I get bored and a bit antsy. (Shoot, something I need to look at in my own therapy, LOL. Hmmm, moment of self awareness there) It may be totally different for you though.

          4. Jenna says:

            After reading ‘Fury’, i thought the prevailing emotion is an underlying fury.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            A valid point Jenna. That is churning away beneath the surface and is there, but is really felt when ignited.

      2. I am sorry to hear that. I hope you will become a happy Elite Narcissist.

      3. sarabella says:

        So all this fuel isn’t fixing the bitter? This part was confusing for me and the narc. His great outward act is he loves life. Funny, engaging, life of the party. Always partying. So when his mask dropped the bight before I left him, I could not believe the bitter rage he showed me. I almost thought I imagined it. Only someone later who helped me said ‘his mask dropped and I don’t know what he is” . Bitter and angry.

        So I thought of all his love of life and how all this supply is never fixing the bitter. It doesn’t give him genuine deep confidence (not the superficial surface narc confidence). Build self-respect or self-esteem or heal the bitter and make him happy at his core. He has never been happy in any of his relationships.

        Fuel doesn’t fix the bitter for good, just manages it, correct?

        This is why I remain confused about who I ever was to him. He showed me his bitter the night I left. Why? It would turn healhier people off. Clearly didn’t me. But other people I know he meets and all, he doesnt show them this. They are able to continue believing that he is a loving and caring person, a kind man, a breath of fresh air. Words people used. Mind boggling.

        What leads a narc to expose that bitter to some and not others? The whole fuel perspective and the role people will play for you? I know the bitter is an underlying feeling all the time in everything you do, but I still wonder why he showed me it so clearly.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          That is correct Sarabella.

      4. MLA - Clarece says:

        At what point did you realize you were bitter? Was it after getting into therapy? I always associate bitterness with great wounding and coveting what you see in everyday simple life that you felt was taken or withheld from you. If MatriNarc is the ultimate source where it all began, are you most bitter that you didn’t have a loving mother?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It was.
          I am not bitter about the latter, it has gone too far for it to be that.

          1. MLA - Clarece says:

            You sound like you know then. Are you willing to share?

  28. Maria says:

    It applies to both.

  29. Amy S. says:

    This is a brilliant piece. The best I have read here so far.

  30. indiglowsky says:

    Hi HG,
    The first portion could have also been written by someone with traits or full BPD. The whirling mind, the intense anger, the intense hope of a savior, the total power the other person has over your emotional levels/experience, the paper thin skin, like a burn victim, with the slightest touch ((or slight) causes torment/intense wounding.

    HG, you do have a choice, though perhaps you do not have all the tools yet to manage that intense fire and rage. There is a saying in DBT: Today you are doing the best you can with what you have today. And, you need to continue to grow to have freedom from your inner hell/rage. That comes with tools that you would need to practice related to emotional regulation and distress tolerance. It’s a skill I know you can learn. And just think, HG, how great of a narcissist you would be with these additional inner emotional control skills? Just a thought.

    For what it’s worth, I’m sorry your skin is so thin. It hurts. I know that pain too, personally. For me, it led to depression and suicidal ideation (for years I heard that voice saying, end it). I know yours is different, as you were created differently. However, if I can rise above from 20 years of wanting to take that leap to teaching others how not to jump and how to emotionally regulate, you most certainly can develop these skill too. Sure, you would not be an empath (to your relief I’m sure 🙂 but perhaps less inner volatility? Just thinking and wishing you peace.


    1. Gene Antonio says:

      Loco delusional and I’d say more dangerous than just being an online creeper emotion detective thinks about you a lot Indy and she is also obsessed w/Clarice right now who she sees as a rival for HG Tudor.

  31. k says:

    I appreciate this article. Thank you.

  32. abrokenwing says:

    Amazing.. fascinating… and tragic.

  33. Yvette Mercier says:

    What is interesting about this article is that it could be written for the Super Nova Empath (or maybe any?) as well. We are just as driven by the forces you shared, feel the wrath and hate at times. I have felt all you describe. What makes us different is one is a pendulant, entitled little child inside an adults body and another is a wounded, self sacrficing little child. Both searching for the same things…really. Yet when a narc gets what they want/need, like a spoiled brat they ruin it, break it, whine, stomp their feet because they see a different/new toy! We cherish what we have, try to ensure it never breaks, hold on for dear life and never want to let it go for it may abandon us.

    Are we that different….other than our integrity?

    You do intrigue me HG with your honesty….or maybe you are just telling us all fibs and this site is actually just luring us all in for all your narc friends to hunt? 😉

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No fibs Yvette, there would be no point in doing that.

    2. No. It’s really not.
      I am a Super Empath. I have no need for plotting and scheming. I am drawn to the sick, the hurt, the fallen, the broken because there is a desire in me to care for them, and I feel I would lose my true self if I were to lose that desire. But I do not draw fuel from that, nor do I need it from anyone I’m helping. My fuel is provided by me, and it is the act of giving love that is energizing me, not the people I help. My Empathy is my superpower, it is my fuel, and that’s what drives me.

      I also have no need to keep them being dependent on me, I’m happy to help, I’m even happier when they can help themselves. I do not care for recognition, I have no interest in competition. I hope we all make it. I have no problem letting go. I have no need for control.

      Whoever chooses to love me, and be with me, I want them to do so out of their own free will, and I can not be sure of that when I hold on to them for dear life. When they have every opportunity to go. And they choose to stay. I will love them for that, but that is their decision, and not mine, and it will never be. And they can reconsider whenever they want to.

      You are describing a codependent. Not an Empath, let alone a super Empath.

      Yvette, I am truly sorry you feel this way. You would do well to learn how to be independent.

      I was drawn to a narc especially because of the reasons described above. Because I wanted to help. Now I know, while I will certainly do the emotional labor required for my loved ones, I will never get into a relationship where I would need to help. If there’s no equality, there is no freedom, and where there’s no freedom, there’s nothing in it for me.

      “thanks is given that they remain shrouded in such ignorance for if they became armed with knowledge, what destruction they might wreak……”

      Ah, yes. I will have to plead guilty there. I did that. His reputation can never be rebuilt. And I am still enjoying the aftermath.

      1. KDB says:

        Dorian Bruins,

        Was just perusing and saw this comment. Well said. The big difference for myself here being the want to help the person see their inner strength to overcome weaknesses on their own. This in it’s essence is a form of helping and has definitely generated an amount of “good feeling” when I see that happen: but self love and authenticity is really where it’s at.

        However, in a way that generates a co-dependency exchange which I have taken part in when investing. It feeds into that need to want to help and at times rescue the broken. Sometimes even give beyond my own means or grip on. Watching someone give up on themselves or hurting is heart breaking and can drive some to keep going if they see the potential underneath.

        Yet that power lies with the person wanting to move towards a path of change. Wanting to be real. Something has to motivate them internally, it can’t always be someone else. Individuality is important. I just always tried to choose love, even in my own darkness and facing fears of my own abyss. We all deserve understanding.

        The concept of love is a strong motivator but it’s even more rewarding when you see someone come to the point of realizing that strength exists inside of them and always has. That is the absolute freedom and damn that’s important. Perhaps at times I’m still on this path of erasing such needs of always empowering others to see that potential because I’ve been there.

        As for pleading guilty, I feel that. I played far too into my ex-narc’s games when I was young and pushed back way too far. I was crushed, but using such tactics against him or others didn’t feel so good after the retribution happened and the reality set in. Using my own truth and anger against him fed the beast. Which is worse? Becoming the beast out of choice to fight back or being it because you were formed that way? A question on my mind lately.

        We are all people who deserve the option of what to do with ourselves and those we interact with. There is always time to grow and try a different vantage point. Narc, co-dependent, and empaths all alike.

      2. sarabella says:

        Even wanting to help is not always so altruistic even if one is independent. It can very easily become a source of its own kind of fuel for an empath. An empathcan easily be twisted into a codependent (lacking senseof self and motility) by a narc. The behaviors of a narc are designed to control and to remove free will. If this has happened to someon3, this does not mean one was codependent to begin with. They might have ‘just’ been abused.

    3. sarabella says:

      I like what you wrote about how we respond as empaths vs narcs. When I think of all the women he has gotten involved with, including myself, I couldn’t believe how he could then go on social media and whine about being single and not finding anyone. The ignorant ones would console him. He is alone because he crushed all his relationships or danced away in his “catch me if you can” dance. If I had had half as many chances in my early life as he did. The ability to lure so many in over and over. I had him for a while, and I hung on for dear life but he misunderstood the reasons. Or he didn’t and manipulated me to behave that way with that narcs great ability to overtly and covertly threaten abandonment to control. Regardless, I experienced alot of deep wounding and criticism from people. From him when I was young and he only repeated it again. But I can relate to the helpless feeling. I am overwhelmed with it this morning. I just don’t take it and run out to fix it via abusing other people. Sadly, my supernova mode with him was abusive but it was also a retaliation to his mental and emotional abuse of me. The worst part of that is he never saw and never will see his behavior as abuse. I know mine was while I was raging so deeply at what he had done to me. That is the most awful part as everyone knows the drill. Off he goes to his next victim with his good guy sheep act. But I still feel wounds on this level as I think this is why narcs and empaths are of the same coin, I just don’t try to fix it by deliberately causing more pain and suffering in others. Except him, I wanted him to hurt as deeply as he always hurt me. This part is taking a while to get through.

    4. VFH says:

      At it’s most basic level it’s that God complex again isn’t it HG? With all due respect, you think you’re perfect and expect us to be too. But we’re not, we’re human, ergo we make mistakes. And you take that personally, decide we’re idiots and move on.

      If you understood that you’re not perfect and that it’s OK to make mistakes – as long as we learn from them – then maybe you could loosen up a bit and understand it’s ok to not be perfect, just be the best you can be, and enjoy a relationship for what it is.

  34. Star says:

    I felt so sad reading this. I can’t imagine having to constantly find “fuel “to replenish my power. I can’t imagine ” feul” being the heart of everything and my existance.I can’t imagine my entire world crashing by the slightest criticism.It must be so exhausting and frustrating and lonely at times:(

  35. Matilda says:

    Excellent writing, HG. I can imagine your endless struggles.

    How do you come to the conclusion that you *have* to continue like that if you have never experienced the alternative? It’s just your assumption, based on fear of the unknown.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Matilda. Yes, I have to continue because the alternative does not appeal so far.

      1. VFH says:

        What do you think “the alternative ” is HG?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The loss of existence.

          1. VFH says:

            What does “loss of existence” mean? I’m trying to understand….

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Not being that which I want the world to see.

          3. VFH says:

            OK. Sorry for the Spanish inquisition but….

            Why do you think you would cease to exist?

            What do you think would happen if the world saw that which you do not want the world to see?

            Is that which you do not want the world to see “the creature”?

            Is the creature your true self?

          4. So if the facade ceases to exist, you are exposing your true self whom you imagine nobody will like?

          5. HG Tudor says:

            In part yes.

          6. I like the person that runs this joint. If that’s anywhere near your true self, you should have no problems revealing that. People will like you for you. Not your accomplishments or your looks or your material things. Just for you. You are pretty great without the facade. Believe that. Now come here and let me kiss you.
            💋💙 oh wait, I’m married…tell your ip to kiss you for me.

          7. Jenna says:

            We will still like you HG!! 🌹

      2. Matilda says:

        I can understand why you need to maintain the façade, HG, to convey a certain image to the world. To some degree, all of us are doing this.

        The lengths you go to and the energy you need to maintain this image is mind-boggling… it’s a futile undertaking though, because your behaviour always reveals underlying issues. Some people in your life might only see the fury, but I am sure that many have an inkling of the reasons why, and keep silent out of fear.

  36. I can’t.

    Can you imagine the emotional pain you cause us for being nothing but good to you? The complex post traumatic emotional devastation?
    What about those of us driven to suicide? I’ve had plenty of suicidal thoughts..

    1. Angelic says:

      emotion detective

      what do you mean by : i can’ t ?

      1. I can’t imagine all those things he asks above. I can’t imagine having to gather fuel as if life depends on it. I can’t understand fuel, can’t imagine what it is really, and why it belongs to basic needs along with food, water, shelter, safety. It’s beyond the scope of my comprehension. Just as it is for them to understand emotions.
        Maybe it’s an emotion that we don’t have but it exists in natural world in predators.
        Maybe I’ve felt it for a little while at some point, but haven’t recognized it, it was too fleeting?

      2. and I can’t..

    2. Not So Sad says:

      Therein lies the problem ED. Narcissists simply don’t care about the devastation they leave behind their focus is constantly on moving forward,,guzzling up the fuel from one victim to the next . .. much like addicts looking for their next hit .. hunting out the supply .. securing it & then slowly & insidiously draining & destroying it until there’s very little left . REPEAT..

      1. Gene Antonio says:

        And emotion defective claims it’s not possible to impact a kid by abuse before age 3 because they won’t remember anything until age 3. How cljueless and ignorant ED really is. Even if it were true no child had any memory from before age 3, which it’s not always the case, there is lots of solid proof, including proof from orphanages in many countries, Romania, Russia and other places, clearly showing the total destruction of children from lack of attachment, neglect and all that. Then here are plenty of studies of wild child situations and why those kids never progress w/language and other human development. ED who has no insight and claims to be an empath is really a no insight lesser narc borderline and stalker too who somehow things ppl are like computers. Other thall of ED’s and having no insight into herself, no understanding of ppl, psychology, even anmal psychology to be truthful, and serious problems w/telling the truth which ED doesn’t, oh and also ED’s endless grandiose delusions whilst she lives in a young kids fantasy world, her only skill outside of lying is stealing other ppl’s words, terms and whole essays to make herself look smart. ED fails of course.

    3. Gene Antonio says:

      Seriously ED you can stop playing fake victim and fake “I’ve had thoughts of doing myself in” already. How easily you judge HG Tudor who has at least given something of value back for whatever he’s done in his past. He has insight into himself clearly. You don’t ED. W/all of your fake online names, your secret trolling identities, your stalking of innocent victims of worth, your sabotaging of your victims of worth whilst you have no worth anywhere, your stealing your victims words terms and more whilst you smear and stalk your victims because you’ve got nothing on the ball upstairs at all, your sending emails to ppl like narcopig lying your ass off of somehow believing your own lies to self and your own delusions (doesn’t really matter which), your sending the email to others including a known greater narc sociopath w/no regard for even kids safety, your coniving, baiting for only 1 evil agenda not caring again about anyone but yourself, all of your never ending bullshit. Stop already. Take some inventory of what you really are which is shown in what you’ve really done, not your delusions of what you’ve done but the real deal of what you’ve done. Sick bullshit ED.

  37. Patricia says:

    Utterly mind blowing Mr. Tudor. You really are the Holy Grail of narcissistic information. I cannot believe how much understanding I have gained in the short weeks since discovering your blog and books. I could not begin to thank you enough for the lifechanging insight you have gifted me if I lived 2 lifetimes.

  38. KDB says:

    I hadn’t seen this post before. Is it strange to state it made me cry? Take care HG.

  39. Love says:

    Happy Sunday Mr. Tudor. I’d like to pick that whirring mind of yours:
    – Scotland or Ireland?
    – Scotch or Irish Whiskey?
    – Country or city life?

    1. HG Tudor says:



      1. Love says:

        Thank you

        1. HG Tudor says:


      2. Gene Antonio says:

        Do you have emotion detective’s real info, real name, phone #, address, pics or anything? If you do please share or turn it over to the police, county psychiatric services in her city, you know HG so they can COT her in time before she acts on her fantasies a lot more, and maybe share it w/ICE too since ED is probably illegally in the USA. It would be less than ideal if she acts on her twisted “t’s so easy to travel w/a gun and randomly kill 2 girls or 2 boys” or not so randomly kill 2 girls or 2 boys, thinking it’s easy to do this and get away w/it. ED truly is that delusional. Whatever entertainment she has brought you, if any, I imagine you’ve probably had your fill by now, if you got any value from her at all at any point. Who knows. I’m not judging either way.

  40. horseyak says:

    Fabulous article.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Horseyak.

  41. Stacy says:

    I have been involved with several different types of Narcissist. I am an empath. I help people all the time. But I can proudly say I am done helping the Narcissists. I saw my first boyfriend fashioned into one. I felt sorry for the abuse he suffered as a teenager. I saw the potential he never fulfilled. I waited for him for more than 30 years to finally “see” me. It never happened that way. I was always caught in the cycle. The last discard was the most hurtful. I will never go back. I will never wait again. And I don’t feel one bit sorry for him or his codependent wife. They are perfect in their horrible parasitic relationship. Nope. Can’t feel sorry for their lot in life. If a person wants to change, put the time in and do it!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are seizing the power with such an approach Stacy.

      1. Stacy says:

        Absolutely. I appreciate your matter-of-fact style. It’s like opening a window and getting a breath of fresh air to clear one’s head. Or receiving a needed slap in the face. They really aren’t going to change.

      2. Hurt says:

        I miss the narcissist truths that you used to post. What happened to them? That used to be the first thing I checked in the morning when I wake up. To give me strength for the day and to remind me of what he is.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          They will return Hurt.

    2. Maria says:

      I totally agree Stacy

      In fact, I have come to the conclusion that even narcissists can change.
      They had to want it.
      The same it goes for all of us humans.

      1. Stacy says:

        I think they really can change too Maria, but the motivation has to be there. What is the incentive? Also, how much can they change? Perhaps they can behave more appropriately but will they ever actually feel differently? Will they ever be able to put themselves in another’s shoes?

      2. Maria says:

        I believe they could learn different patterns.
        I do.
        Of course the motivation would be an important key factor.
        I do not believe though that they are totally devoid of emphaty or conscience.

    3. sarabella says:

      I alwo waited for 30 years. When he did show up? He was a corrupt and broken narc who wanted to hurt me again, not love me. 30 years taught him nothing! !!!

      1. Stacy says:

        I hear you Sarabella. That’s what happened to me too.

        1. sarabella says:

          The worst part of it is that there is no resolve to wanting the best for him and wanting him to live a slow painful life. When I hear bad things happen, I am moved by empathy and some desire to reach out sprinkled with ‘it serves him right’. When good things happen, and one just did and hundreds of people are applauding him, I feel rage inside and I want to find a way to take him down. I went from being so excited and happy and feeling like it was all so amazing he came back for me and totally excited to see him to lingering PTSD and a painful conflict between love and hate and the need still for revenge. I can’t believe how my feelings turned this way and there is no resolution at all and never will be. Hope and elation and happiness to have become his friend again turned to this level of hurt. It is hard to hold in my chest even now.

    4. sarabella says:

      I was at the mercy of someone who helped me alot this last year in some ways but in other ways, she managed to keep me ensnared just like HG described in his Ignorant posts. I told her my narc is a parasite and she did the poor man, consider his childhood. Yeah, it sucked. Like mine. And in many ways, my life was worse than his. At least he had his con game, his consience free manipulations to keep him floating. I had very little but my sheer willpower. He is a parasite who many women wanted to love, who had so so many options and no matter who he effs over, he manages to keep conning more. People just don’t get it. I too am over the waiting and rescue role. He will never, ever “see”me.

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