The Errors of the Ignorant – No. 4


A series based on the comments made by people who fail to understand the true nature of narcissists and the narcissistic dynamic. Whilst these comments may be well-intentioned, they are incorrect, perpetuate misunderstandings and in many cases create false hope, dashed expectations and perilous outcomes.

It is often the case that a victim of our kind finds that the (unidentified) narcissist continues to keep in touch with them. As I have explained on many occasions, we will always look to hoover you whether it is post escape or post discard because there is the prospect of fuel and potentially the opportunity to draw you back into the Formal Relationship. Those hoovers are governed by the Hoover Triggers and also the Hoover Execution Criteria. If you are unaware of the nature of the person that you became entangled with, it is highly likely that you will keep triggering hoovers and the bar will be set low on the criteria, which means you will be regularly hoovered.

This may seem to somebody like we are just keeping in touch, wanting to see you, perhaps explain why things did not work out, organise to address outstanding issues. Those are the most likely views taken where the dynamic has been between narcissist and Intimate Partner Primary Source (“IPPS”). It does not end there however. In this dynamic, you will have been devalued and this will cause you to question certain behaviours that you have experienced and witnessed. If you are an Intimate Partner Secondary Source (Shelf or Dirty Secret) you may well not have experienced any devaluation and instead you are seen only at certain intervals, picked up and put down and we keep coming back to you, seeing you, sending you pleasant messages as we future fake and provide comfort crumbs. There is no ‘traditional’ malevolent behaviour towards you and yet you find yourself not elevated to a position of IPPS, so you find it strange that you are not referred to as the girlfriend or you do not meet our family and friends.

Whether you were the IPPS and you are now being repeatedly hoovered or you are the IPSS who keeps getting picked up and put down, these ongoing interactions can last for years. We have embedded you into our fuel matrix and whilst you may never return to the position of IPPS (or be crowned as such) you remain an appliance that we draw fuel from. This leaves you perplexed. We are intimate with you (or have been), we talk of future plans with you, appear to confide in you, yet there is not the sensation of being in that formal intimate relationship of partner, spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend. This leaves you puzzled as to what you mean to this person and why we keep engaging with you even though there appears to be no end game in sight.

Labouring under this situation you seek advice from a third party who listens to you explain the dynamic. They are likely to gloss over the devaluation (if you were once an IPPS) preferring not to get involved in conflict again and instead focus on what appears to be a more constructive interaction now as you are hoovered. Whether it is being hoovered or being placed on the shelf and removed from it, this advisor will deduce that our continued interest in you and our efforts to keep in touch with you (which may be strenuous at times – for instance tracking you down after you have moved) ) means that we are clearly interested in you and this should be regarded as ‘a good thing’.

No it is not.

The advisor is likely to suggest that because you clearly mean something to us that you should continue this engagement with us, perhaps look to increase it if we remain interested also (invariably you are) and therefore great things are on the horizon.

No they are not.

The only things you mean to us are in accordance with the Prime Aims (fuel, character traits and residual benefits).

This prolonged contact is born out of our need to secure these Prime Aims and keep you within our fuel matrix. We want to keep drawing fuel from you and we do this through the repeated hovering (even though we may never put the Formal Relationship of boyfriend and girlfriend back into place). We do this through taking you off the shelf and engaging with you as an IPSS and then putting you back there when we turn to somebody else. We will continue to do this for as long as we are able. Perhaps we will restore you to the position of IPPS following these hoovers or we might promote you from IPSS to IPPS and of course your continued engagement with us appears to have paid off. In the short terms yes, but ultimately that promotion or restoration is a poisoned one as your devaluation as IPPS will come about.

If there is no restoration or promotion you will be kept in this state of purgatory, never sure precisely what you are to us. You see us sometimes and then not on other occasions. You hear of us doing things with family but you may not be invited to join in. Certain social occasions are excluded from you also. You feel close to us because of the way we make you feel when we are with you but at the same time there feels like a gulf between us because we are not admitting you entirely into our lives. You may feel like the Other Woman or Man, you may feel like the Friend With Benefits, you may feel like the Secret Shag, you may feel like you are Permanently In Waiting and if it is this last one, you are correct. You are permanently in waiting as you are at our whim and pleasure. If we want to engage with you, we will, if we do not, we will not.

By convincing you that this elongated song and dance translates into you meaning something to us, your advisor has made an error of the ignorant. They have given you false hope that you are special to us, that we will make good on all those future fakes, on all those tempting promises and that those comfort crumbs will somehow gather together to make a Relationship Cake. They might, but it will not be to your taste in the end and more likely, they will not and five years later, ten years later, twenty years later you are still the one waiting for us to call and pick you up as you realise that your life has been placed on hold and all because you were made to think that this narcissistic behaviour of hoovering/shelfing denoted that you were special and you meant something to us.

If you recognise this behaviour in your dynamic with someone or that it is happening to someone else you know and care about, do not commit the error of the ignorant and enlighten them to the reality of what they are in and what awaits them.

86 thoughts on “The Errors of the Ignorant – No. 4

  1. Medusa says:

    Thanks HG, very clarifying!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

    2. Salome says:

      Dear HG
      Please, could you post this messege:

      Hi Medusa

      Once you wrote about autistic spectrum.
      Can you, please, share some links?


      1. Medusa says:

        Hg beautiful, thank you very much for posting a message to me!
        Hello Salome, I would love to help you with this queries, is a very sensitive issue for me in particular, first because I have someone very loved who is on the autistic spectrum, and also study special education … I am always reading and looking new information on the subject, to help and cover it better, and also my opinion based on what I have to live with these special people.
        Now, what I read is in Spanish, so I do not know if the links I can provide will serve you, if you tell me that, with great pleasure and joy I publish them.
        I greatly appreciate the confidence in my opinion as to what I read … a giant hug for you, and another giant giant hug for HG!

        P.D .: I hope this well written and understood, because as I mentioned, my English is basic.

  2. geyserempath says:

    HG identified me as a Shelf IPSS. I see my Narc every Saturday for a beer after shopping or if invited for dinner (lives with his parents). For two months now he is ignoring me on FB, discontinued pet names in emails, and hasn’t called me. Now he has discontinued “benefits”.
    HG: 1. Is this devaluation or just shelved? and
    2. Does it mean my dis-engagement is at hand or just control?

    Thank you!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are on the shelf. It does not mean that dis-engagement is to hand.

  3. Sandra says:

    For a change I’m a collateral beneficiary instead of collateral damage at the hands of a Narcissist.

    What a refreshing change.

    Cheers, Tudor and congratulations on 6mill.

    1. narc affair says:

      Yayyy congrats on 6 million HG!!! 🤗👍

  4. HG Tudors # 1 fan says:

    HG Tudor does not do pitty parties, he is a Greater Elite, not a Midranger. Consulting with his Dr. and starting narcsite, is all about gaining an inheritance, following the completion of the Grand Design. In other words, HG is in it for himself, and could careless about anyone else.

    1. Jenna says:

      We know that. It is in the ‘about’ section, his books, interviews, and in replies to the same questions over and over in the comments section.

      He puts on a good facade of patience when answering the same questions again and again concerning it, until Narcangel suggested to include this information in the ‘about’ section (great idea narcangel!)

      Personally, i am tired of hearing readers comment about the inheritance issue. It is so redundant and a given.

      But a side effect of the consultations w the good doctors is increased awareness. It is evident in his writings.

      For example, when the good doctors asked what his favorite game is, he replied that it is to confuse pple. The good doctor alerted him that his ‘game’ is called ‘gaslighting.’

      He now knows the name of the behavior, and is more cunning in when and why he exactly utilizes it, being intellectually higher than other narcs, who have no idea what they r doing. It is his preferred form of manipulation, so he is perfecting his art to a science-like precision to further his aims. He cares abt nobody. He has stated that more times than i can count.

      1. HG Tudors # 1 fan says:

        HG, I sincerely miss hearing your voice terribly. HG, you have all the
        answers to my questions. I need you in my life.

      2. narc affair says:

        HG tudors fan…if you are having HG voice withdrawals you could always listen to his many u tube vids or pay for another consult 😉 the live streams coming up too 👍

  5. Clare says:

    Makes perfect sense of 13 years of my life – not wasted as I have a beautiful daughter and learned that shiny packages don’t always have the good stuff inside. After realising what was happening (that I was actually DLS not IPPS) I played him at his own game, ditched him and found a really lovely new partner but didn’t mention it till we were engaged. Hoovers stopped in an instant 🙂

  6. Aimee says:

    I am going through this now. The crumbs with no mention of seeing me, just keeping me on the shelf in case he needs fuel. I truly cannot understand why this effort is made when I’m providing little in return. I am a dirty secret but frankly wouldn’t mind some intimacy (as you know it’s awesome) but he keeps me at a distance. I guess I am his “just in case.” Now that I know what he is I expect nothing from him, I just wish I could completely let go. Sometimes I can’t believe that he is as evil as described here, but I know I’ve not seen the worst of him because of my status. What does it take to finally let go?

  7. BlueOcean says:

    I wish it would be more easy for people who have not encountered a narc to understand what is really going on. Few if any people seem to grasp the seriousness and the repetitive pathology in the situation. The average psychologist or general doctor are not aware of this condition either. If you say narcissist they will say what is that oh that is from the greek tale. the guy who liked to look at himself. Which reduces it to someone who is just a bit concerned with his looks. Some will just see a bachelor-bacheleorette or an idiot. But no-one except those who have have actually been related to a narc for a long time will recognise the red flags and the patterns. I have yet to meet these people who have met such a person, in my own life. One feels very alone with these observations except if one goes online and google. If you reveal your knowledge to close friends, they will listen to some extent but they will essentially fail to understand that anybody could be like that and to actually have such sinister motives, because they basically trust the world and people in general to be good and they cannot understand that while a lot of people definitely are good, there is also evil co-existing and that one should be aware of this and safe-guard against this evil also and know the signs. But essentially they just don’t understand and may even think that you are the one who is a bit lost here.

    1. ;peace out says:

      if you’re addicted to an extreme narcissist, then you are ‘lost’ in a way (you’re seeking to recover yourself under the convoluted effects of alienation that the narc has managed to trigger in you). that doesn’t mean that they (*the therapists / friends) are doing a great job of helping you by noticing that “something is wrong”. don’t have those addicted emotions, don’t freeze up, don’t obsess, don’t desire special intimacy from someone who is giving you a powerful cocktail of intermittent attention within an atmosphere of apathy, disdain and even violence… is all great observation but useless advice.

      a good therapist / friend, will help you focus on yourself, you can understand the narc to a degree, but your state of mind and feelings are ultimately your problem, not he narc’s, and what you should care about the most. you have to be self-nurturing and you should also question what it was in you that drew you to the narc? etc..

      1. BlueOcean says:

        Yes, it is true when knowing a narc, everyone else will seek help whether with friends and-or therapist, and when it is the narc who is in fact the one who needs counselling and change, in prioritised order *people can always improve/develop their psychology. However my point with writing before, is not so much to draw attention to victims need for help or not, but to highlight the fact that people who meet a narc are often the ones who end up being stigmatised to the world, because of the superior manipulation skills of the narc, and because of the fact that most people don’t know of the disorder and to most people it just looks like a regular love-story gone wrong or at halt, to varying degrees. One cannot share the information in general public because to them you will just appear as either somewhat lost or if people know that this narc person maybe have come to have a certain reputation in public with girls, they might even judge a narc-victim to be a bit naive and less smart: Who the hell will stay with someone who is not nice etc . The awareness is just so low of pathology in general, whether the narc has succeeded in retaining his superior standing when it comes to reputation, in spite of his repetitive actions with multiple people over a long course of time (his whole life). In general, people judge from their own way of behaving and which is in most cases not pathological. They don’t know evil. To them, evil is only when it is apparent, like a man holding a gun trying to rob someone, or some dictator in NorthKorea who bombs, or some movie, where a psycho is evil. Mindfucking, deliberate use of other people for a self-optimising purpose, smear-campaigning, the actual joy of seeing someone suffer, the need to feel superior at all times, the deliberate use of intermittent reinforcement, the small hidden put-downs — etc. People don’t understand that, because they think people operate from an efficiency and/or good principle, to various degrees, like themselves. People are if not in denial of that kind of evil, then blind. They fail to grasp it. Neither do they understand the cocktail of intermittent reinforcement because they have never been subjected to it in an ongoing long-term relation, at best maybe randomly and they don’t recognise the pattern. Etc. Victims are quite alone with this information and that is kind of terrifying, it feels like a bad movie where you are in: Where the external viewer see all the evil going on and when all other actors in the movie, just keep on behaving as if no evil. And you the person who is involved with the narc just keeps getting more and more intertwined in the spin of the narc, trying to get out – but then the narc suddenly re-appears with reward. If the narc is then also someone who is good-looking, has good intelligence and is wealthy and well-connected, the power of the narc can be really terrifying.

      2. Noname says:

        Bravo, ;peace out.

    2. Yolo says:

      Very true….its odd how so many people are so clueless and closed minded when they here the narc word. A friend recently told me ” girl he’s not a narcisst, he’s just crazy in love with you. Stop being so high maintenance “.

      I blocked her calls and then I realized it’s not her fault. I have to choose who, when, and how to share this information.

  8. Dragonwisper says:

    Very very very true….. I fell for you lies so many times. But this last lie I am standing strong on my own to feet and feeling the burn ALONE. There is no winner ……….. I do not respect you anymore F.K.
    I gave you all of me
    My entire heart
    My entire soul
    I gave you more than you deserved

    I fell for you
    No more…..
    When I look at you, I see the monster you are.
    The lies you vomit out of your mouth
    one right after another

    You do not fool me anymore
    You will never know the truth I have found out about you
    I know explaining all I have found out, even with pictures (as you demand) you would still turn the my words back on me.
    so………I know the truth of you

    so I stay away
    Far away
    Far far far away

    I cry alone
    No ONE sees my pain
    no one knows the shame I live with in my darkness
    knowing I gave the best of me to just a monster

    I will pull myself up out of the pits of hell ALONE
    or I will die knowing I loved as a fool
    a monster

    but then you win …….so no
    I will pull myself up out of this pit
    but this does not mean I win
    because I do not have you……….

  9. angela says:

    at list something right..

  10. Bliss says:

    I used to think that. Desperately wanted to believe it. No excuse to ever think that now it’s been clearly explained. Thank you for the insight, HG.

  11. Twilight says:

    He found me once, will he again?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      There always remains a risk, but you now know how to reduce that risk.

      1. Twilight says:

        Yes I know how to reduce it, yet it seems to be the more of a challenge I make things the more he is determined I am not going to have my way. I want one of those black erase your memory sticks from the movie MIB so I can erase my memory from his mind. Cause God knows I do not do anything to trigger this and his mind is the only thing working against me and getting my way for him to forget me.

        I am believing that is the point he will not let me have my way……he knows I will find another.

  12. Jada says:

    hg if I am no contact, have already ignored a hoover attempt, have no mutual friends, moved and changed jobs and the narc is a mid ranger, how likely is he to find out where I live and try to stop by?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is more likely that he will concentrate on a new target than expend effort trying to track you down.

  13. Sues423 says:

    I’m soooo guilty of believing this ….🤦🏻‍♀️

    And some of my well intentioned friends love to keep adding logs to the fire.. 😞

  14. Scout says:

    Well written and excellent advise. Thank you HG.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Scout.

  15. Mona says:

    HG, I must agree.
    I lately met a woman who had contact to a sociopath. A real huge greater. We understood each other at once without a lot of words. It was as if we both have a secret knowledge about things others have not.

  16. EC says:

    HG- Its amazing I can counter my ex.. because you have given away valuable knowledge. Ive gone supernova empath each time.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Seize the power EC.

  17. Sandra says:

    Enjoying the new series.

    I hope to use these tips to prepare my empathic daughter and get that damned target off her back. She is even an educator of Behaviorly Challenged teens and I can see her bearing the brunt of manipulation attempts. I worry this will increase her ability to excuse insidious abusive behavior in a romantic setting.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is a credible concern that you identify.

  18. Patricia J says:

    Purgatory…perfect word for the experience.

  19. Jenna says:

    Holy smokes is this ever relevant to me! I will comment in more detail shortly! I am excited to comment soon!

    1. Jenna says:

      Hi hg! I’m back to comment!
      Post escape, hoover, and re-establishment of the relationship as friends, we only interact via text and the occasional phone call (face time once). He used to text abt twice per wk, taking me off the shelf when he needs fuel. The frequency has gradually decreased frm twice per wk to once per wk, to once every two wks, and now to once every 3 wks. I am ok w the decrease in frequency as i don’t want to interact w him weekly anyways.
      As the article states, i never received a ‘real’ devaluation. Maybe that’s why i continue to interact w him.
      I thought he has alot of cognitive empathy, since he apologizes promptly if he says something hurtful. That had me fooled. Rather, hg told me he is exercising facade management. Regardless, he is kind when he engages w me.
      So my prblm is this: if he is keeping me in his fuel matrix, so what? I like being in his fuel matrix. He is courteous and friendly, and i like to stay in touch w him because i am co-dependent. If i do not stay in touch w him, i feel sad.
      Surprisingly, the 3 wk time btwn contact has just increased back to daily lol. He contacted me yesterday. I was so engaging with him – didn’t talk abt the past, was being funny etc. B4, i used to drill him abt the past every time he texted me, and that’s why the frequency between contact decreased. He had said ‘it’s better if we don’t text much because the past keeps being brought up and reminds us of our dark days.’
      Yesterday, i made sure not to pester him abt the past. Obviously he liked the interaction, so he texted me again today (didn’t check it yet).
      But today i will not be so engaging w him because once per month contact is enough for me now (that’s the progress i made).
      I have no desire to be his ipps again. I just don’t want to lose contact or else i become depressed, being borderline.
      I like it this way. He gets fuel, which i don’t mind giving as long as it’s positive fuel. I get my monthly check-in. I now know he doesn’t really care abt me. I have accepted it. But i still want to remain in contact w him occasionally via text. It helps my mood.

      1. narc affair says:

        Hi jenna….you really remind me of myself in so many ways as a younger version of me. Youre a sweety! You deserve so much more! I can really relate to your posts and i know how you feel about wanting to remain in contact to avoid becoming depressed. As a borderline you fear abandonment more than death itself and it feels like death when you dont hear from him im sure or at least thats how ive felt. We kid ourselves that itll work tho bc it still is volatile and scary staying in these sorts of relationships bc you cant depend on these types of people. Youll still go thru the rollercoaster ride always fearing when he does do something unpredictable and shakes your world up. Its going to be difficult letting him go but much easier in the future vs easier to stay with him in contact but a longer drawn out painfulness of being at mercy to his behaviours and decisions. Youre reliant on him if you rely on staying in contact.
        I know i say all this yet dont follow my own advice but i know its true. If you werent reliant on him staying in contact but just wanted to have him in your life thatd be different but we both know as a borderline thats not possible or at least in my case i know that to be.

        1. Jenna says:

          Narcaffair, u, gabs, and i shud form a mini club here. There are so many similarities! Yes, the fear of abandonment is scarier than death itself. I hope to reach that point where i just want to have him in my life but not reliant on him staying in touch. I know i’m getting there. I can feel it. For example, he texted me again yesterday, and i didn’t even check it for hrs, and replied several hrs after that. The content of that text is interesting. He is depressed again and is confiding in me saying he has nobody else to talk to abt this. I am hearing him out (colloquial HG!) and providing a few suggestions. I don’t mind.
          I need to decrease the frequency of the texting tho because of what i have learned here – if they interact w us only intermittently, there is no need to devalue.

      2. gabbanzobean says:

        I could have almost written this Word for Word. My reasons, for staying in touch, although I do miss him, have been more to study his behavior, now that I know what he is. I am definitely thinking of backing off again though, because I am starting to get caught up, starting to let it affect my mood, I miss him too. I keep reminding myself that he’s not real. The phone calls I have had with him have been emotionless, they are leaving him bored and restless. I can tell. He keeps trying to draw fuel by asking me questions to get me to admit how I still feel about him. He never reaches out to me first, I’m always the one to reach out. I know he doesn’t care about me. They don’t care about us. They just want fuel.

        To make matters more “interesting” (aka; fucked up because I want to study him like a science project), I am seeing him in October on a pit stop. I am taking a road trip to see my best friend and visit her, we have concert tickets in her town. His town is a few hours away from her, he is on the way there. I know I’m playing with fire here but I want to see him in person. It will be my first time seeing him in person after learning what he is. As fucked up as it sounds I feel like I need to do this. We made dinner reservations. Part of me is hoping maybe I’ll get my devaluation and he will blow me off and won’t show up or something. Part of me hopes to interact with him to apply what I have read here. And finally, the sick part of me wants to see if he’ll try and have sex with me again (after constantly telling me that “we can’t ever do that again” lol)…. i’m torn between letting him have me and saying “no way” to see if I can unleash some of that so called “fury”, that of which I have never seen as he is so goddamned charming and nice all the time.

        Mr Piano recital during church. My new science experiment in the study of narc. Sigh.

        1. Jenna says:

          Gabs! You and i r so similar that i feel a strong bond w u! U know what will happen if u meet him? He WILL try and have sex with u. That’s why i don’t meet mine anymore. Mr. Piano recital needs contrast. He hasn’t had sex w u in awhile so he will try and have it now. Be prepared! Try not to be intimate else the oxytocin will rise sky high and u will feel very attached once again, thinking abt him daily. Pls b careful sweety!

          1. gabbanzobean says:

            Pretty much all of what you wrote describes my texting pattern with Mr. Piano recital at church…including his charm and politeness in the management of his “facade”.

            I wanted to touch upon your “fear of abandonment” comment as it stirred up a memory. My narc knew of my troubled childhood but I never specifically told him of any abandonment fears. He would repeatedly say to me “I am always here for you, ideally I should never speak to you again but I am not going to abandon you.”…. I often wonder where that remark came from. His own fear of abandonment perhaps? I know bits and pieces of his childhood which he has shared with me (IF he was even telling the truth). All I know about Mr. Piano recital is: divorced parents, both remarried, has step siblings (which he spoke highly of), sheltered childhood, religious upbringing. Said he always had to be the “peacekeeper”…spoke fondly of his father but said next to nothing of his mother. No idea what to make of any of that. Yeah I feel the need to analyze him. Like it matters.

            Anyway sorry to spin off topic there….you really think he will try something? He has already told me numerous times “we should not have sex” and “It cannot happen again”. But he has said that so many times and it likely means nothing. Yes I am so curious if he will try something. The last time we were together was February. I was the one who initiated it and he accepted. This time I am not initiating anything. I am very curious how it will go though. Will he get nasty and physically force it? (I doubt that). Will he be all romantical and charming? (most likely). I already have so many things prepared to say to remind him of the whole “we cannot do this again” nonsense to throw it back in his face. I wonder if he will even remember saying that stuff and will just deny it? As you can tell I am planning every possible outcome in my attempt to study him like the science thing he has become.

            I won’t lie, I do want him and it will be hard to resist. I keep telling myself he is NOT REAL. This is my first time seeing him since I learned what he is. I shall try my hardest to be most careful. I am totally planning to segue into a discussion about his childhood. I want to learn more about his mother so much. I have this need to try and figure out how and what made him become what he is. I also want to see if he tries to mirror me too. All of it, everything I have read about here. I know I am playing with fire here. But I feel like I need to do this. Am I making sense?

          2. Jenna says:

            Gabs, i understand u completely. Look out for narcaffair and windstorm’s posts. They have narcs in their lives that r not dangerous, just like ours.
            If he doesn’t talk abt his mother much, that probably means she’s the one who may have neglected him. For my ex, it was an adult male who sexually abused him. A few times, my ex said that this person was gay. So i finally asked him ‘how do u know he’s gay? Did he try something w you?’ He replied ‘i already forgave him let’s not talk abt it.’ I cried for abt an hour after that. 😢 It broke my heart and that’s when i promised him that i will never hurt him the way others have hurt him. Just thinking about it is getting me teary eyed again.
            I don’t know if mr. piano recital’s remark came frm his own fear of abandonment. They hide those feelings well. I think he may just be repeating what he heard elsewhere or on tv perhaps.
            Mine also used to say that we shouldn’t be doing this, because he’s religious and doesn’t believe in sex outside of marriage. But he could not control himself, and neither could i. We would at least have dry sex or just kiss and cuddle.
            I am almost sure he will try to have sex with u. He will try to seduce u most likely, nothing forceful.
            I think he will deny that he said ‘no more sex’ or use an excuse that he’s used in the past, of not being able to resist u. Why would he give up this grand opportunity for fuel? (No sex w you since feb!)
            I have the same need, to figure him out. I used to ask him sooo many Q’s abt narcissism. He got fed up lol. So now i don’t ask. It helped me in a way to get some closure tho.
            Gabs, try not to have sex or u’ll get attached all over again. When i stopped being intimate, it made things a little easier.
            Of course, my predictions may b wrong. If u want real answers, consult w the tudes!

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Every narcissist is dangerous. To think otherwise is naive.

          4. Jenna says:

            Ok. Thx HG! I read a post where windstorm wrote something of this nature of hers not being dangerous or maybe she used a different word, and i thought that’s just like mine! I will change my views immediately!

          5. Windstorm2 says:

            All people can be dangerous. The kindest, most caring empath can kill you if she’s distracted driving and hits you with her car.

            But I agree that narcs are more dangerous, especially if they are not really intelligent or if they’re really, really smart. Since they lack empathy, they are missing an important check on their behavior towards others that the rest of us have. Anyone who views you as a disposable object has a much higher potential to cause you harm and will have zero remorse.

            There are different types and levels of danger. My narcs will not deliberately kill me because they are lazy, fear law enforcement and are not homicidal, but they are still dangerous to my peace of mind, my feelings, my possessions, my plans….

            I think of them like pieces of broken glass. They are colorful and interesting but always have to be handled with thought and getting occasionally cut is just going to happen. Playing with broken glass always involves a danger. Same thing with playing with narcs.

          6. gabbanzobean says:

            I won’t lie, I do want him, but I am not initiating. I am very curious to see how this pans out.

      3. Windstorm2 says:

        Hey Jenna, I wanted to reply to Gabrielle but her comment didn’t have a reply button, so I’m putting it here. 😊

        I’ve read your plan to study Mr. Piano Man. I’m a big believer in science experiments, but it’s important to not get emotionally involved. You have to be detached and objective. Be open to all possibilities, not hoping for one in particular.
        One possible scenario you didn’t mention that I would think likely is that he no shows and stands you up. Be prepared for that as a possibility, that way it will hurt less. Good luck. ❤️

        1. gabbanzobean says:

          Oh I am totally putting that as a front runner outcome! That he stands me up. In fact I am actually kind of expecting it as he has already given me preliminary excuses of stuff that “may” come up that might prevent him from showing. Examples include his daughter’s new medical condition (which his poor wife cannot handle on her own and needs him there for) and which may cause his cancellation. The fact that his wife still “keeps tabs on him” after his other infidelities and may request him back home at any moment’s notice if he is not with someone she personally knows. That people in his town randomly “follow him” to see what he is doing and report info back to his wife and mother-in-law and if what he says he is doing does not match what someone finds him doing then he is at a “risk”. LOL. Oh I have heard about anything and everything that may make him “unavailable”. In advance! At this point I am going to spin the wheel and see what it lands on. Narcs are so great at predicting the future.

          1. Windstorm2 says:

            Another thing I’ve had narcs do to me when I’ve been looking forward to some one on one time with them is to show up with someone else when I thought they were coming alone. Then they get to watch me struggle in the unexpected situation and have someone right there to triangulate with me. I’ve gotten to where I ask point blank, “Are you coming alone?” and make sure they realize I will leave if they do not. Hope that doesn’t happen to you!

            Keep a record of what happens whenever you interact with him. It is so easy to hope and imagine things are like we want them to be. Analyzing your data you collect will help you see thru that hope to what the reality really is. ❤️

          2. gabbanzobean says:

            Last time we went out to dinner, he triangulated me with the waitress (charming and flirting her). LOL. And I just chalked it up to him being “friendly”. 🙄
            Anyway, thank you for the advice. I will heed it. ❤️

          3. Jenna says:

            Gabs, if he’s already given excuses that may prevent him from showing up, then that definitely means there’s a high chance he won’t show up. Bastard!

            Why don’t u not show up? Give him a taste of his own medicine. A few times, when we were not long distance, my ex texted wanting to come over, but i refused. It felt good lol.

          4. gabbanzobean says:

            I’ve already planned the logistical details of my trip so I’m going through with it. Guess we will see. Damn those delicious cerebrals.

        2. Jenna says:

          Good point windstorm. Always appreciate ur comments as u have many narcs in ur family😀

        3. Jenna says:

          Windstorm, i remember reading one of ur posts where u stated that ur narcs r not dangerous, but u may have used a different word. Do u remember which word u used because i recall relating to that. Ty.

          1. Windstorm2 says:

            I very well may have said not dangerous- but I meant not physically dangerous. So many people here talk about being physically abused, frightened, intimidated and controlled by their narcs. Mine are not that way. They all have the potential to be, but I understand them and have set up protections for myself, my property and my money, so I don’t consider them a danger to me now.

            All of my narcs, even my sons, will do things that hurt my feelings and hurt me emotionally- often callously without even being aware that they have hurt me. The danger of emotional hurt and disappointed hopes is always there with a narc. Right now my exhusband has my SUV. That is a constant worry in the back of my mind until i get it back home. He will not intentionally hurt it, but he won’t take care of it either. If it gets damaged he’ll be like, “Eh, that’s life!” There’s just no getting away from the fact that they do not care and will never care. Being around narcs requires eternal vigilance.

            One reason I think I can interact with my narcs so well is because I have deep down in my soul accepted that they are incapable of empathy, they do not really love me and -maybe most importantly- they never will really love me. They will never really care about what’s important to me and while they do often help me – I can’t depend on them. Ever. For anything. They may be there, but they may not and I’ll never know until the time comes.

            It disturbs me to think that you or anyone else here is trying to maintain a relationship with their narc when they still have hope that the narc will love or care about them. That type of thinking just leads to entrapment and misery. I am friends with mine and you may be able to be friends with yours, but it took me years after I left my husband before I got to that point. The point beyond all the emotions where he couldn’t draw negative fuel from me. Seriously, at least 5-7 years of being independent and learning how to protect myself. If you’re going to have a relationship with a narc, be careful and remember you always have to protect yourself and that you will be hurt repeatedly. ❤️

          2. Jenna says:

            Hi windstorm!

            I recall relating to that post. Thx for clarifying. As HG stated, all narcs r dangerous. But like urs, my ex is not physically violent. He is a cowardly mid-ranger lol! He’d rather do things the easy way and withdraw.

            But dw windstorm, i do not have hopes that my ex will love or care abt me. After being on this site for a yr now, i know they cannot love, are incapable of caring, and have no empathy. I have accepted it.

            Hence, i have distanced myself frm him considerably. U may have read in my other posts that i no longer meet him in person. I have a partner.

            And i don’t allow him to devalue me (he never really did in the first place). I know he may withdraw at any time, so i am careful not to become emotional during text sessions. Our texts are very platonic and almost boring. That certainly helps to keep the emotions at bay!

      4. Noname says:

        Jenna and Gabrielle,

        I have one colleague at my work, who has the similar story with her Narc and she has the similar mind-set like you both have…

        The first problem.
        She tryes to dig in her Narc’s past childhood trauma to analyze his current behavior. I told her that it is a right approach to understand the root of problem and then to treat it.


        ALL Narcs have the childhood trauma. It is the initial CONDITION to form their personality.


        Not their childhood trauma forms the Narcissistic way of development, but their CHOICE. Her, my, your, their Narcs CHOSE to be the Narcs. Consciously!

        Their childhood trauma (whatever it was) doesn’t matter anymore. Their childhood trauma was a mere condition, trigger, and they made their choice. They chose to be the Narcs, to lead that way of life, and THAT and only THAT mattes.

        So, no need to intellectualize and analyze their past. It is absolutely meaningless. You have to analyze their current Nature and behavior. Here and now.

        Plus, you have to understand, that you’ll never “heal” them, if they DON’T WANT it.

        For “healing” (harmonization and balancing), they have to do what they once did in their past when they chose the Narcissistic way of development – to CHOOSE again. It has to be the CONSCIOUS and ACTIVE decision from their part. The deep internal decision. The cardinal change of their life perspective! And it has to be confirmed by real actions (not words!) and committment to chosen way. We just can make their “healing” journey less painful, easier and faster, but we CAN’T initiate it. The decision to do it is THEIRS. Only.

        So, if you don’t see the real and long-standing changes in their behavior, don’t waste your time.

        The second problem.
        My colleague doesn’t like to hear it, but I keep telling her, that she has to change herself. To heal her own wounds (insecurity, abandon issue, etc.). To resurface her own ”demons”. To work not only with her own self-esteem, but with her own SELF-RESPECT (by the way, many Narcs have pretty high self-esteem, but ZERO self-respect). To recognize and understand who she really is and accept herself completely. It is very hard and painful work, but it has to be done. After that, the life becomes absolutely different. Better.

        So, it is my advice for you, girls, – stop to work with your Narcs and start to work with yourselves. You are not ready to heal anyone, if you are “ill” by youselves.

        Love yourselves (in healthy way), respect yourselves, understand who you really are, recognize your own boundaries, understand what you really want, and everything will be alright. You’ll be free.

        Good luck, girls.

        1. Jenna says:

          Noname, i appreciate ur comment. However, they did not choose narcissism. It was their body’s involuntary reaction to childhood trauma. I don’t think anyone would choose to be devoid of certain emotions, have constant churning fury etc.
          How is ur greater narc husband doing, the one who u knew is a narc but u married him anyways? I remember i asked u why u go into a ‘bolthole’ in order not to hurt him, and u didn’t reply to me.
          I also asked u if he becomes furious when u ask him questions eg. ‘When r u coming home?’ etc. but u said ur solution to that is to only ask him one question ‘how r u?’
          I could not live like that. That’s why i don’t live w my ex-narc. I like him long distance only.

        2. Jenna says:

          Also, i have no desire to ‘heal him.’ It can’t b done. But, he is becoming more self aware thru our discussions, just like Hg is becoming more self aware everyday. And i am glad he finally has somebody to talk to abt his childhood trauma. He said he hasn’t told anyone b4 (may be a lie) but he obviously wanted to release and be free of that secret he was keeping bottled inside.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            It is not a lie. I am not concerned with achieving release since I had had consigned this issue to its own particular prison a long time ago, but thanks to the interference of others it has been revisited and thus this became the catalyst for the Grand Design.

          2. Jenna says:

            So revisiting it has had a positive outcome, no?

            I remember ur articles and replies to comments when u first started the blog. There’s a world of difference in ur self-awareness and answers to questions since then. Perhaps the good doctors have helped u to become more self aware.

            Also, u have stated v clearly that u learn frm empaths on the blog (and in ur personal life obviously). It may be because u r an intelligent greater.

            I also remember the article outlining the session w the good doctors where they asked certain questions abt ur childhood, and u almost fainted. She was trying to make u face the beast, that u hide so well. Only when we face it, can we be free of it. It was heart wrenching to read, but ultimately, the good doctor had it planned as part of the healing process.

            As u write ‘Little Boy Lost’ i am sure u will be facing the beast throughout that process. U have stated that u need to be well fuelled when addressing ur childhood. I think while writing the book, u will b able to face ur inner creature just a little more. Tiny steps.

            I wish the best for u and i am eagerly waiting for ‘Little Boy Lost.’ But pls take ur time. No rush. I have much patience.

          3. Jenna says:

            Oh hg! I just re-read my comment, then urs. When i stated:

            ” And i am glad he finally has somebody to talk to abt his childhood trauma. He said he hasn’t told anyone b4 (may be a lie) but he obviously wanted to release and be free of that secret he was keeping bottled inside.”

            … I was referring to my ex mid-ranger, not u. Sorry for the confusion.

            I know u don’t lie here and we are v fortunate for that, nor would i ever accuse u of lying here.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for the clarification.

          5. Jenna says:

            Yw tudes n sorry for the confusion. We all know u don’t lie here. U have even stated that it is somewhat cathartic for u in a way to express urself openly here. That would definitely not come from someone who would lie here!

          6. Jenna says:

            I just left my optometrist’s office to pick up my updated contact lenses. I am now sitting in my hot car in the parking lot replying to comments lol!
            I can’t even wait til i get home cuz i have a couple more errands to run!

      5. narc affair says:

        Hi jenna…lovely pic! Its so great seeing peoples faces and other body parts 😂. Id post mine too if i could.
        I agree with HG every narcissist is dangerous bc anyone who has a hold over you and abuses you even covertly is very much dangerous to your well being.
        Im able to say this but yet havent walked away. Its true tho.
        Im also glad HG has someone to talk about the abuse and your narc as well jenna. Its easy to look at narcissists as monsters and some are just that but at the core is a lot of damage and abuse theyve suffered. Im very much empathetic towards the narcs in my life but im also cautious for my own well being and i look after myself. Its so important to have someone you can talk to when youve been abused. Hg says it was confined to a prison but these issues always resurface until dealt with and dealt with they need to be that is why were here and what our lives are about. Its a journey meant to live, experience and learn from.

        1. Jenna says:

          Narcaffair, ty for the compliment. Do u really like to see ‘body parts’? Lol!
          I would love to see ur pic but if you don’t want to upload it, i can understand.

          Yes, all narcs are dangerous as HG has stated, and we must definitely be cautious. When i said my ex isn’t dangerous, i also meant physically, just like windstorm has clarified. He is a cowardly mid-ranger and would never physically abuse me nor destroy any property.

          You stated:

          “… these issues always resurface until dealt with and dealt with they need to be”

          I agree with you completely. That is why the good doctors are having HG recall his childhood.

      6. Noname says:

        Dear Jenna,
        please don’t be angry with me, and if I offended you in some way, take my sincere apology.

        I didn’t answer to your and other girls questions about my husband, because it is a very long and complex story of “healing process” with many many small, but very important steps. I just tell you, that my behavior is a part of “healing strategy” and it changes according to current events. And it isn’t so horrible as it sounds, believe me. Lol.

        I also want to add, that my husband made his decision and started to “harmonize” himself BEFORE we really met. No one forced him to do that! It was his pure good will. He visited the specialists and started to make his first steps.

        The awareness is a very crucial moment, but it is nothing without real actions. He wanted me to help him in his “healing journey” that was already STARTED.

        Fortunately, he was a right man for me on all levels and I agreed to help him. We didn’t have ANY illusions about what we were going to face in our life.

        There were a lot of preparations before we started to live together and then got married. It was very exact and very attentive to every detail work. I had had certain skills and I was INTERNALLY READY to help him. And of course, our life and our dynamic is different. And it isn’t not because of me. It is because of HIM.

      7. Noname says:

        May I ask you about what your Grand Design means, Tudor?

        You mention it pretty often on your blog, but never gave any details. Or is it something you want to keep in secret? If yes, no problem then. Thank you.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You will be able to read about a slice of the Grand Design in a book which is released this month Noname.

          1. Windstorm2 says:

            HG, would you please notify us when that book comes out? It would be very helpful if you let us know when any new one comes out. I periodically look on Amazon but to be honest I forget the names of the ones I’ve read which makes it hard to pick out the new ones. Thank you.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Yes, the new ones are always advertised when they are published.

          3. Windstorm2 says:

            I must have overlooked that since you advertise the previously published also. I’ll have to pay more attention when I see a post about a book! Have a great weekend!

      8. narc affair says:

        Hi jenna…maybe one day ill upload it we will see or ill be faceless lol no id rather see peoples faces than body parts 😄
        It has been nice getting to know people here 🙂

        1. Jenna says:

          Narcaffair, lol!

      9. Noname says:

        Slice only? Hmm… I’m afraid I’m not about slices. Everything or nothing. Lol. Anyway, thank you for your answer, Tudor. I respect your desire to keep things private.

        I want to ask you about your books. The majority of your books are “online” and only several of them was released in paper. Do you plan to release all of your books in paper?

        And another question. Do you sell your paper books somewhere else aside of Amazon?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Yes I will release them all as paperbacks eventually.

          I understand that through expanded distribution my books can be bought through other outlets such as Barnes and Noble, but I suspect it is online orders only, you cannot walk in and see me on the shelf there. After all, I put people on the shelf, I don’t reside there myself do I?

      10. Noname says:

        If it is about Barnes and Nobles, it is nothing wrong to be on their shelf, believe me.

        I’ll find the alternative way to get books. Thank you for information, Tudor.

    2. ANK says:

      Jenna, Gab, Narcaffair,

      I am like you all too. I got depressed when he didn’t text and would message him to get response . I would upbeat again when he did. However he hasn’t been in touch and he ignored the last text I sent. I decided I would no longer chase him, or text him because he has treated me like that.

      I am feeling utterly depressed and unable to concentrate at the moment because I am back in my own home after almost a month at my mother’s looking after after her surgery, and no longer have that distraction. I am desperately wanting him to contact me, to acknowledge me.

      I talked about this at my counselling session and discussed a desire to being friends with him to keep contact. However I don’t think that really works because they don’t give you true friendship. They don’t care about our welfare or want to be there for us like a proper friend would. They only want to be around us if they can get fuel from us. And knowing that make me feel worse about myself – that that is all I am good for. I cannot take the fakery and lies and like you Jenna do not want to be his IPPS or IPSS or DLS any more. Because as you say it is all just to try and have sex.

      Despite all that i want him to text. And I want him to care. To the first I don’t think he will and to the second I know he doesn’t.

      I’m tired of the pain.

      1. gabbanzobean says:

        “Despite all that i want him to text. And I want him to care. To the first I don’t think he will and to the second I know he doesn’t.

        I’m tired of the pain.”

        OMG this times a million! I wish he would reach out to me. But he never does. Not like he used to. And I wonder “who”. His wife? A new DLS/side dish? Multiple side dishes? Nothing at all? You have no idea how much I wish he would reach out to me. How much I overthink it. The silence hurts.

      2. gabbanzobean says:

        “Despite all that i want him to text. And I want him to care. To the first I don’t think he will and to the second I know he doesn’t.

        I’m tired of the pain.

      3. narc affair says:

        Hi Ank…im sorry i missed your post. I can relate. Every time ive gone no contact ive felt those very same feelings of depression and like im a zombie and cant concentrate on anything. It is all very so painful 🙁 howve you been doing? Has your narc contacted you?
        It takes time to detox from it all and is supposed to be painful bc we feel emotion.

        1. gabbanzobean says:

          Sorry my reply was meant for ANK too…..
          I did not have a reply button for that comment…’h!

      4. gabbanzobean says:

        Narc Affair,
        I get very depressed as well when he ignores me. I last spoke to him 2 weeks ago. We talked on the phone for an hour and it was lovely. I felt better hearing from him. I reached out and he answered.

        I backed off for a week and a half and did not reach out. Heard nothing from him. A few days ago I texted and he replied and made a few seemingly innocent yet flirty sexual comments. I told him I was going to call him and he said “not today, I can’t talk today”. Okay fine.
        Yesterday I tried calling and today I tried again. Voice mail both times. I am definitely feeling sad that he’s silencing me but I will back off again for a little bit. I keep reminding myself that this is how he is. As interesting as it is to observe and track his behavior I am finding myself still depressed over it.

        I’ve noticed some pattern in his behavior. He tends to ignore my call for at least 3 times in a row. It will ring and ring and ring and go to voice mail. Then the 4th (or subsequent) time he will answer immediately after the first ring. Also, he never reaches out first, it is always me. I guess this is his way of devaluing me since I never really had much of any other devaluation other than “we are done having sex” (but we never were done). I have always just gotten disappearing acts, silence. Never fury or nasty. And never any explanation. (and if I did get a half-assed explanation it was “Oh I am busy”)…

        Yeah it sucks. I have no idea why I made plans to see him next month. I am sure he will ignore me and blow me off. Maybe it will be the knife in my gut I hope for so I can say “enough” once and for all.

        Sigh. Still in love with that illusion of fuckery.

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