Achieving NoFuC


Achieving NoFuC is the way to force the narcissist to leave you alone.

If you are being pestered by someone trying to seduce you who you have no interest in.

If you are being badly treated by someone who is bullying you.

If you are being repeatedly harassed by someone you were once in a relationship with.

If you are being smothered by someone who seems pleasant but is behaving over the top at the outset of your involvement with them.

If he or she just will not leave you alone.

You are in all likelihood being hoovered by a narcissist, whether it is in seduction or whether it is devaluing behaviour. Whether it is at the outset of the relationship, during the relationship or after the relationship such behaviour where this person will not leave you alone exhibits the behaviour of the narcissist.

To deal with them, you need to achieve NoFuC. 

To understand what this means, what needs to be done and what it achieves, use this useful logic bulletin today.

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145 thoughts on “Achieving NoFuC

  1. Melissa HoneeBee says:

    HG..I told him I was “giving him the finger” on Messenger a few days ago… within an hour he had blocked & deleted me on Facebook & Messenger..just curious, what should I expect nexr..if anything?

    1. Melissa says:

      well…I saw him this past Monday & he offered me 1/2 of his meal lol…never know what to expect…those Narcs keep us on our toes

    2. HG Tudor says:

      I do not have enough information Melissa to provide an accurate answer.

  2. ava101 says:

    I really don’t know what’s in the air this month.

    A very old aquaintance of mine called me after appr. 15 years!! I had blocked his phone number back then already, because he was so obnoxious and impertinent. And I just recently had put him in the narc category in my thoughts. So, I have moved since then more than 5 times, and he still tracked down my phone number and just called me under the pretext of some business proposal. While saying that he couldn’t say anything about the project in question. *lol*

    Went on forcing me to tell him if I was in a relationship, also going on and on about his perfect, super intelligent, beautiful, super sportive, etc. etc. son, whom he had such a perfect relationship with (before telling me that he was living in boarding school). And about the son’s mother who was so mental and having fits every single day.

    After 15 years!!! Ahh!!! Why me ….

    1. K says:

      A Hoover after 15 years! HG is right: never say never. He wants a hit of hoover fuel from a former NISS.

      1. ava101 says:

        Thank you, K!
        Yes, HG is right. I neither wanted to believe that the exnarc would come back after 1 year, nor that someone would find me after 15 yrs …. Yes, I guess he wanted a little hoover fuel, and I was taken offguard, as I wasn’t expecting this call at all, of course … I so hope that he won’t try again.
        First narc lover never contacted me again after I told him that I would make everything public. After 13 years of his games …

        1. K says:

          My pleasure! Your old acquaintance was very thorough in his efforts to track you down, so he definitely belongs in the narc category. It is all about the game of fuel. How to get it and who to get it from. This has the potential to be a board game.

  3. NarcAngel says:


    The suggestions to read and continue to come here are great and will help you immensely, but there is no better avenue than a consult in my opinion. We have all had experiences that you can learn and take from, but who better than the perpetrator himself to learn from to form a defence tailored specifically to your situation?

    1. Nuit Étoilée says:

      Yes, NarcAngel, I have already availed of HG’s personalised expertise and I agree it is beyond compare for understanding.

      And thank you for your insight & experience as well. I appreciate it.

  4. Bubbles says:

    Narcangel, you’re funny

    1. Bubbles says:

      I deleted my champagne bottle.
      I shall use words…. thank you
      Narcissists are no fun!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        You ought to keep the champagne bottle, HG approves of champagne. I had an excellent Henri Giraud on Saturday evening.

  5. Oh no!
    Bubbles, did you catch NarcAngels suggestions? I’m busting a gut over here! ROFLMFAO!
    Or you could just let HG name you appliance.LOL
    no,Bubbles sounds way more fun than appliance.
    Laundry or Champagne?……not going to pick laundry!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The point made was not just directed at Bubbles.

      1. K says:

        Can I be a Venus Century Espresso Machine: $20,000? I really like espresso.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Ha ha – it’s a deal.

      2. K says:

        It would be an upgrade from K the Electric Motor.

      3. K says:

        Thank you HG! If I am going to be an appliance, then I want luxury.

  6. Bubbles,
    I approve! Nice matching Icon. Is it a Moet Chandon? ; )

    1. Nuit Étoilée says:

      Persephone – if you’ll remove the space between the colon & the parentheses – it will work –
      🙂 no space, : ) w space. 😉 tada

      Sorry, HG

      I have some bubbly to share to make up for my transgressions

      1. HG Tudor says:

        HG approves of champagne.

      2. Thanks Nuit Etoilee!
        That worked perfectly! 😉

  7. Bubbles🍾 says:

    Dear perse and E.B.
    Thankyou both ….. 💜💜
    Sillyolperson has a new name (in celebration of a new a beginning) Bubbles🍾

    1. Bubbles🍾 says:

      I hope you both approve!
      I took what you both said very seriously, my heartfelt thanks. 😘

      1. Nuit Étoilée says:

        Enchantée, Bubbles.

        *raises a glass
        Cheers! To Bubbles! May your life from this day forward remain narc-free!

    2. E. B. says:

      Welcome, Bubbles! 🙂
      I like the champagne emoji next to your name 🙂 Let’s celebrate!

      (S.O.P could be useful when you refer to the narcissists in your life ;-))

  8. I must have a pretty old keyboard.LOL! I’ve got none of them!

    Mr Tudor prefers words, and I’ve been managing with them so far.
    Words it is!

    I can call you Bubbles if you prefer

    That last is address to the nearly former Sillyolperson.
    Not HG

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Words are best. Dont poke the bear.

      1. Bubbles🍾 says:

        Gotcha 😉

    2. NarcAngel says:


      What are you using
      ? A manual typewriter?

      1. No, its about an 8 year old HP laptop. Although this morning it was typing about as well as a Remington manual left out in the weather for about 8 years. Then I accidently spilled coffee in it, used canned air on it, left it alone to dry a couple hours. Types fine now, still no emoticons.
        : P

      2. E. B. says:

        Haha – The problem is the ribbon. My Olivetti doesn’t like Unicode either.

      3. NarcAngel says:


        Haha its the ribbon. Excercising a little blame-shifting?

        1. E. B. says:

          Yes, it has to be somebody else’s fault. 🙂

          I could not stop laughing when I read your suggestions for new screen names. Inspiring advice for newcomers to this blog! – Haha

  9. Sillyolperson says:

    Dear E.B.
    Thankyou, that is so kind of you. I’ve been abused all my life and I still didn’t see it. Ive always trusted people because I’m honest myself. My family are always telling me off for doing things for others and for putting myself down. I just care too much and we are the ones that get hurt the most. I didn’t even think about the narcissist wanting me to feel that way. You are right, I’m blinded by punishing myself and it’s a reminder the narcissist doesn’t deserve and a step forward for self healing. Originally, it was going to be “stupidolperson”… and some NFP …. haha. I shall take your advice and change my name. Any suggestions E.B.?
    Thankyou lovely person for bringing it to my attention ☺️💜

    1. Nuit Étoilée says:

      You sound like a sweetie, (*not) sillyolperson 😊

      1. Sillyolperson says:

        Dear Nuit,
        Awe … Thankyou
        I just try to be a decent human being, that’s all.

    2. Hi Sil,

      You are wiser now, you could pick a name that describes that, should you decide to change you screen name. I had my nickname that friends and family used with me first, but to some people it denotes naivete rather than a physical descriptor, so that was one reason I changed it.
      A little more anonymity was the other.


      (How are you all getting emoticons BTW? I can’t find the darn things, and sometimes an emo just says it better than words)

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I’d rather you used words.

        1. K says:

          I have been on my best behavior since the rebuses.

      2. Sillyolperson says:

        Dear perse,
        Thankyou for your help.
        I may be wiser, but not necessarily smarter.. haha
        Everyone says I’m bubbly … is that a good one, or bubbles ?
        Sil ☺️

      3. Sillyolperson says:

        The smiley face on your keyboard on the left hand side next to the ?123…..

        Mr Tudor prefers words

        1. NarcAngel says:


          HG likes words and remember, when he replies to you he has to type your name. In that case you might like to go with something like:


          Something like that.
          Those are words.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Although I will actually be addressing you as appliance.

      4. Nuit Étoilée says:

        HG, His Greatness – ouch. We know, but it still hurts to read – you wounded me there.. esp since you’ve never used my name in a response.

        I had no idea you don’t like emoticons 😮
        I would think it provides reactions – fuel..

        EB, you can use a conventional keyboard to create emoticons – that’s how it started – using a colon or semicolon for eyes w parentheses for a smile or frown – now online interprets these as the faces.

        Persephone, I still have an old keyboard but often now phones have extensive emoji choices.

        So, HG prefers words… prob just doesn’t want us pulling faces at him 😛
        ..or are you showing your age? 😉
        Does this warrant a fessée? 😤

        Ok. I’ll give you what you want… this time.

        I join K, I’m a logophile too (in multiple languages)

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I screen the emoticons out, NE.

        2. E. B. says:

          Nuit Étoilée, thank you! 🙂

  10. Nuit Étoilée says:

    Well… f*ck…

    And so it begins… again…

    Just rec’d a *new* msg after having gone low visibility…

    ..following your advice, HG, I simply returned his greeting.. last week.. this week, he’s asking questions… he never asks questions.. (about my schedule.. ick…)

    This has actually depressed me.. I was getting happy about no msgs.. hoping I’d be let off the *hook*… going for NoFuC and minimal response…

    Is that the best I can do? Do I have to stop using my FB? (the only way I keep in contact w friends across the globe)..

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, you can do better by blocking or coming off social media for a time.

      1. Nuit Étoilée says:

        Thank you, HG..

        My fear of.. reprisal.. is the only thing stopping me from going through w the block (i don’t expect you to remember my situation from our consult).. I’m prepared to face the consequences of my choices *I have no difficulty accepting responsibility – though I do have the tendency to postpone if possible…

        Bon voyage 😉

    2. Tappan Zee says:

      NE— “the only way to keep contact with friends across the globe” and “low visibility” … both sound like juicy rationalizations not to go NC. my two cents. this jig is really all or nothing. we play games worse than the narcissists if a person gets honest. let go 100% or not at all. for us to recover that is.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Nailed on, TZ. They are manifestations of emotional thinking.

      2. Nuit Étoilée says:

        See? You’re totally a badass, Tappan Zee. I guess i just needed accountability – thank you. *don’t mind being juicy though

        HG – we’re empaths, who you hunt for our emotions – it is extremely difficult to extricate them when thinking…
        ..damn it.. logic has never been my strong suit..

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I know it is and we rely on that to keep you stuck and keep drawing fuel. I understand why it is difficult for you to achieve, but nevertheless, you have to overcome that if you are ever to move forward.

      3. Yolo says:


  11. Alessangell says:

    When the narcissist excludes you from the social network, can he come back?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Indeed he can.

  12. jen says:

    I always question if mine was an actual n or not cause he had so many qualities that made me think he wasn’t. In the end after he told me he didn’t love me I told him I didn’t love him either and left the next morning. Somehow I ended up trying to go back to him and he “punished me” by telling me he didn’t want anything to do with me at this time and completely cut me out. He now has new supply that obviously he was with before we ended no telling for how long. thing is he never hovered directly. He hacked my iphone, called and text from random numbers sent an email from bogus account and called a close friend he knows I stay with a lot. Theres more to the list but he has never showed his face or contacted me from his own number. Will this ever stop? Will he ever do it where I actually end up seeing him again? Will he forever be just the silent phone call or blank text every so many months

    1. Yolo says:

      Lucky you…try not to answer unknown phone numbers it will help raise the Hoover bar. Also, you can block unknown numbers and texts from most phones. Good Luck

  13. ava101 says:

    Why do some narcs have to be purposely and planfully malign? ! How did he sense that this was a bad moment for me (so a very good moment for him) and why isn’t it enough for him to have his new family to play with? What does he need me for?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. To gain fuel and because of the sadistic streak ;
      2. Instinct and reading you;
      3. The world is not enough, so how can one family be expected to be?

      1. ava101 says:

        🙂 Thank you, HG.

        1. The exnarc certainly has a sadistic streak.
        2. How could he read me, when no contact? Also not through any mutual acquaintance? Now I’m back to my suspicions about telepathy, from a year ago. *lol* (Ohh, I just had an idea how it could have happened, thanks to your articles …)
        3. 🙂

        Yeah, imagine him in his office, sending me that stuff, while girlfriend and 2 children sleeping in next room ….
        Ah, well.

  14. ava101 says:

    Yes I have, master HG, thank you. Ah, the cheek of him, waiting for a whole year for the worst possible moment with the worst ammunition.

    1. Tappan Zee says:

      ava— wait. what the actual fuck. he procreated with someone (fairly recently) whom he is with and sending you pix like it’s a puppy?

      1. ava101 says:

        Tappan Zee, haha yes, exactly.:-)

        This was a planned attack, using the video as a missile. He told me a year ago that she was pregnant. So, why now. He also sent a number of mails to me today, either from or to different mail addresses so he could be sure that at least one would reach me, as he knows that I have blocked a number of his e-mail addresses.

        When he told me a year ago about the pregnancy, that was what had sent me here, to the article about the illusion. Because when I was with him, he was very clear about never wanting a family, or living with someone, or having sex (esp not orgasmic). All in a manipulative, gas lighting way.

        That poor woman he’s with, I’m actually glad to hear that she survived the pregnancy with him at her side, that must have been hell. And now he’s bored …..

  15. K says:

    Ditto, GTFO* while you can!

    *Get the fuck out

  16. ava101 says:

    Aaaahhhh nooooo!!!! HG you are absolutely always right. Had I just stated that the exnarc had left me alone for a year now? He just sent me a f**** baby video! and information how he lives with his current main energy source. And how did he get through my filters again anyways?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Indeed I am and good for you in recognising it.
      Delete it, block the e-mail if it was sent to you by e-mail, I assume it was.

  17. Ashley says:

    HG – One of my facebook friends is a guy I know from high school. We didn’t hang out much in high school and every year or two he messages me and tries to ask me how I am still single. Is this a red flag that he might be a narc? I just find it weird because we have zero contact yet he seems to randomly pursue me.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is a red flag. Purely an indicator and not determinative but certainly something to be mindful of.

    2. Tappan Zee says:

      Ashle—not just a red flag but a gd parade. That is my personal take and experience.

      1. Nuit Étoilée says:


        Tappan Zee knows from experience – so do i.

        That is exactly how my narc entanglement began – .and i thought the same thing – that’s odd..

        Run, don’t walk – delete this “friend” no need to even question it – you said yourself you have zero contact.

        Tappan Zee, thank you for sharing in previous posts – your story inspires me to continue keeping my distance from my narc.. * you’re already a badass to me 😍

  18. Wonderer says:

    How do you truly know for sure someone is a Narc? I keep reading but I still just can’t figure it out! I’ve been with the same person on and off for 4 years. There has been cheating, and many of the manipulation tactics mentioned in numerous posts of yours (Pathological lying when she was cheating, lying in general, extreme selfishness and lack of consideration for her actions, aloofness, triangulation, future-faking, etc). Most notably, the lying is just so bad and unnecessary. I’m extremely chill. But also, I know she had a traumatic childhood (including abuse) and also had to lie to save herself on so many occasions. So I’m not sure if she lies out of habit, immaturity, and mental illness. Or, if she truly is a narc. She never leaves me alone for long, but when we are together we are usually happy. She only cheated 1 time (from what I know) and seemed to genuinely hate herself for it. She never really displays any of the cruelty many of you name, but more so will ignore me for hours, be super distant, and then freak out about commitment and we break up. She is very hot and cold, but usually when we are broken up. And then I will catch her in lies. And whenever we break up, there is always someone else who’s usually the complete opposite of me in every way, that my Narc pursues. My Narc is very attractive, very successful, family orientated, but only has a few friends. I guess there are just factors on both sides and I can’t figure out what to do. The most recent reason we broke up was because my Narc was supposed to move in with me.

    I only have a year of law school left, and we were supposed to move to a different city together after I graduated. We compromised that she would live with me for a few months, and then she would go first to the new city; I would then follow. She had no job at the time because she had just graduated, so it was going to be very easy for her to move to me. (We had been long distance for 4 months at this point). Then, a week before my birthday she out of the blue said she didn’t want to move to me anymore because it would affect her career and she wanted to go to the new city right away. That was the straw that broke the camels back for me, because her selfishness is extreme and I was sick of it. Everything is always on her terms and she can never be selfless towards me, whereas I gave up everything for her and to go to school where she was at the time. Long story short, she didn’t even end up going to that new city and got a job where she was! Then she started hooking up with others while telling me she loved me still etc. I cut her off for 3 weeks. Then she started emailing me and I wanted peace so I answered. Then she started manipulating me telling me she kept thinking of our future children and us in the hospital with our first born (we are 25 and almost 27) and she can’t get over me, etc etc. Same as always. She will tell me she wants me and i’ll give her a chance, and then she will get distant and change her mind 4 days later.

    This has been the pattern for the 6 months we have been broken up now. I don’t know what to do though. I am miserable without her every single day. I should be focusing on my last year of school and the bar exam, but all I can think about is her. I cut her off the other day and she called me crying she is so sorry for all the pain she causes and she just wants me to be happy and that I deserve someone better. Which she always says. So we started verbally talking a bit more for the first time in months (instead of email) and I was so happy again. She told me she was too, and that she stopped talking to the other people. But I see them commenting on her stuff with “hearts” and I called her out and she said they’re just trying to get her attention since she denied them. (Suspicious). Things were starting to go well again for these past 4 days. Then out of the blue, shes being super distant again and not answering me. I am so tired of this and feel crazy. She seemed so happy 2 days ago. We haven’t talked for months, you’d think she’d be so excited we could maybe get back on track. She also told me she realized she freaked out about committing to me more seriously and regrets moving away but that now she can’t do anything about it because of her job. But I just don’t trust her in my gut. She’s notorious for saying things just to say them, but then she also does show me true emotion at times. Unless she’s THAT good at faking it. Idk I’m hard to fool, but she just might be that good. But I truly believe she is my future wife. But I don’t want to be with someone who mistreats me. I just don’t know if she is THIS manipulative and is keeping me on the back-burner while she sleeps around and has her cake and eats it too. Or if she is truly a girl who simply needs a lot of mental help and to grow up, but has the capacity to love. Basically, I want to know if there’s a chance in the future where she and I could be happy? I barely ever like anyone. She is so special for that reason too. Sorry this is so long. I just have been wondering if she’s a narc years now or if I’m just a douche who’s blaming her not liking me on some mental disorder. I would appreciate any advice!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Organise a consultation and you will be able to get the detailed answers you require, Wonderer and then you can change your name!

      1. Wonderer says:

        I wish I could but as I stated I’m a young law student so unfortunately I can’t afford it :/, so I was hoping for some “pro bono” advice from the community! Thank you anyway for your fast response. I appreciate it.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome. If you are going to qualify as a lawyer I am sure someone will lend you the money, you are going to be good for it later!

        2. Overthinker says:

          I don’t know if she’s a narc but I see a lot of my relationship in yours the number one thing is your questioning and wondering mine always made me feel insecure she’s doing this to you you don’t feel safe and secure in the relationship that’s a very bad sign are instincts are usually right

      2. Yolo says:

        Email consults are within in reason. Based on what he’s read on the blog or books as an future attorney In am sure wonderer has the answers. Paying for a email consult for confirmation of what your gut is telling you is priceless. It’s an investment in your future. At a minimal cost. Most spend more on coffee in a week.

        1. Overthinker says:

          True dat lol I could finance trip around the world if I stopped buying coffee everyday and made my own

    2. Wonderer, I think you answer your own question in your post.

    3. Bibi says:

      Wonderer, does it really matter what label you give her? Everything you describe here is that of an unhealthy situation. This is not a well-balanced person. If not a narc, she could be a borderline. They have many narc tendencies yet seem to self punish more (cutting, suicide, etc.)

      Again, even so, is this a healthy dynamic for you? That you should have to even wonder should be your biggest clue.

      From an objective observer, what you describe is extremely unhealthy.

    4. K says:


      I like WS2’s words of wisdom to jenna: “I always use the “duck test.” If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…..”

      I think she is a narcissist; she uses the pity play, which is a classic sign of a disordered person. Run for your life but stay here and keep reading.

    5. NarcAngel says:


      Whatever her label is she cant be considered a catch. Do you really need a label to pass on that hot mess and move on? Pretend shes your first case and focus on the facts.

      Thats my free advice. If you still want to pursue her you might want to reconsider that reasonable consult fee with HG. Will save you much more than you know in the end.

    6. Tappan Zee says:

      LAW STUDENT— first of all HG should charge you double:) second of all, suck up the $40-$100. thirdly, if she treats you poorly now it won’t change. ditto the lying, faking, etc. i may sound harsh. HG will break it down for you. and sound nicer than me. esp if you go for audio consult. he is very kind and pleasant. even when weilding the hammer of truth. you are young with a career ahead of you. it will pay dividends tenfold and beyond. consider it your retainer to save your life. no joke. this dance won’t end unless you do. do it.

    7. E. B. says:

      Hello Wonderer,

      re: How do you truly know for sure someone is a Narc?

      By looking for red flags. You have described her behaviour very well. Many red flags are there and you have been observing the same pattern for the past four years. If she has not changed by now, I am afraid she will not change. Your head is giving you a warning (‘I don’t want to be with someone who mistreats me’) but your emotions are trying to justify her abusive behaviour because you love her (‘she is truly a girl who simply needs a lot of mental help and to grow up, but has the capacity to love’). It does not matter if she has a BPD, a NPD or both. Her behaviour is unhealthy and the logic tells you she is mistreating you. If she has a NPD, she does not have the capacity to love.
      How long will you be able to tolerate all this if you wrote that you are not able to concentrate on your studies and you are feeling tired and crazy?

      All HG Tudor’s books are on Kindle Unlimited for $0. There is 30-day free trial. You can download software from Amazon for free to read Kindle e-books on your computer or on any other device. One month Kindle Unlimited membership costs $9.99 and you can cancel it anytime. I highly recommend reading “Danger – 50 things you should not do with a narcissist”, “Red Flags”, “Black Flags”, “Chained” and “Manipulated”. All HG Tudor’s books are insightful and full of invaluable information.

      1. Wonderer says:

        Thank you all your help. I will definitely see if I can scrape up some extra money, but I’ll look into the books as well. I have been thinking this for years and have read all about it. I think I’m just too close to it at this point because I desperately want to hold onto some hope for our future. Her showing of some emotion makes me think she’s not a narc, at least not fully. But she definitely has many of the qualities. And as many of you stated, it is not healthy regardless. Besides my love for her, I also feel terrible for her. I don’t want her to live her life like this. I just want her to be genuinely happy. I hope it happens. I know I cannot wait for someone like this and I won’t, but losing her takes so much out of me every day. It really is a withdrawal. I haven’t been able to leave (emotionally) for 4 years. Even when I dated someone else, I always thought of her against my own will. And each time she came back it made me think “oh she must be the one” because they always say that those you love will always come back to you. That narrative is what has been screwing me I guess. As well as my faith/ trying to be forgiving. I suppose I need to change the narrative to “those who truly love you won’t leave in the first place and won’t emotionally suck you dry” because I would have never left her/done what she’s done. Maybe that’ll help, we’ll see.

        I also think I’m so damn stubborn that I don’t want to believe she’s like this. I don’t want to believe she cannot be helped and have a genuine, long-lasting relationship. It’s exceptionally hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that narcs can’t change or be helped, as everyone says. I just don’t understand it. I know they cause so much pain, but I just cannot imagine what they truly feel deep down. We are all human, regardless of some of us being able to feel more or less. It just really bothers me that there is not a known solution. And maybe its this weird obsession that keeps me holding on even more, who knows. But I simply can’t process how they can’t change and the rest of us just have to “run away”. Maybe I have to accept I’ll never understand.


    8. Windstorm2 says:

      Hey Wonderer,
      Just read this thread and how you said they are human and you can’t understand how narcs can’t change or be helped. Narcs don’t have the full spectrum of emotions that the rest of us have. They are in effect “emotion blind” like some people are colorblind. They can never feel joy and happiness just like some people will never see red or green.

      The key to whether someone is a narc is can they feel empathy for other people? You know this girl. Does she feel empathy for your feelings? If not, she is a narc. Pure and simple. This is very hard to accept, and I understand that. But the bottom line is that if she doesn’t have empathy with your feelings now, she never will.

      Stay here and keep reading. It will help you. I understand your situation. My exhusband is a lawyer. You have gone thru a very difficult course of study and you’ve got a difficult road ahead. Focus on yourself and let her go. If she’s not a narc and loves you, she will understand how hard this time is for you and actively work at making things right between you. If she doesn’t and she expects you to change for her, let her go. She is a narc and can never love or care for you. I will keep you in my thoughts.

    9. Primrose says:

      Who cares what label anyone puts on her, why the hell would you want to waste time and emotional energy on such an unpleasant person?

  19. Samantha says:

    Hg have you hoovered every former IPSS of yours?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I have.

      1. sarabella says:

        How many multiple times?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I don’t have precise numbers on the number of times for each one that has been hoovered – some have been by text, others by phone, some in person.

  20. Just Me says:

    He sucked me into his game last night. I can’t turn off the emotional thinking when it involves the kids. He knows this. His whole family helps him. They are a fucking pack of narc hyenas picking at my half dead carcass. I am wounded but still a lioness. If he wants fuel, I will give it to him then light a match and blow the fucking lid off his facade.

  21. E. B. says:

    Excellent article. I have done most of these things in the past with different narcissists and it works.

    There is another possibility why the narcissist may persist although we are not reacting to their hoovers.

    This is about Proxy Fuel: “…someone deliberately spying on you, but this individual is feeding to us your reactions to what we are doing. We do not see your emotional reaction…”

    This can happen when the people supplying the N with information about the target are narcissists themselves *and* they are pathological liars.

    I know I am being watched by the N’s Coterie and Lieutenants so I am very careful about my behaviour. Any reaction will be reported to the N. However, many narcissists are compulsive liars. They cannot stop this behaviour. It is a part of their everyday life. So even if we do not react to any of the N’s FUHs and those who spy on us are narcissists and compulsive liars themselves, it is highly likely that they will be giving false information to the N about our ‘reactions’.
    The N will believe their lies and will persist. I heard a narcissist from the Coterie telling the N and other people lies about my reaction to a particular FUH. He lied.

    Besides, if the Coterie or Lieutenants are narcissists themselves, they need fuel too. They will get fuel from other people’s attention and reactions to their made up stories about their targets.

    1. K says:

      The lies are astounding and I am diligently working on NoFuC. But you are right, spies are everywhere and all they do is gossip.

      1. E. B. says:

        If your N’s Coterie and Lieutenants do not live near you, if they do not attend the same social events and are not in contact with you or with any of your family who will give them information, you do not have to worry about it.

      2. K says:

        I used to knit with a narc and I do not want to knit with her anymore, so she got mad and went straight to my MMRN and started shit. I broke No Contact Mistake rule # 3; no talking about us. The hoover criteria was lowered and I activated a hoover in the 3rd sphere. My MMRN called me on the phone. What a rookie mistake.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I guess the wool was pulled over your eyes for a moment K.

          1. K says:

            Never again, HG. I was so mad at myself (and that bitch) but I flipped it and turned it into a learning moment. It’s all good and I am moving on again.

        2. E. B. says:


          This happens. We cannot always know who is on our side. Sometimes they pretend to be our friends when they are actually passing information about us onto other people.

          I was in contact with Narc A, who used to complain quite regularly about Narcs B and C and things they had done to him. Business matters. I was the only one helping A. Since I had cut off contact with B and C, I used to listen to A but did not engage. This went on for almost four years until I felt pity for A and wrote him that B and C were taking advantage of him and he should start setting boundaries, among other things.

          B and C bombarded me with emails. Their fury had been ignited. Treacherous Narc A had forwarded my email to B and C. B, who is a lawyer and some members of his family who are also lawyers, threatened me with taking me to court if I spoke up. I ignored their emails and threats and cut off contact with A too. They will not do it because the truth would come to light, even if they win. They live in a small town where there is a lot of gossiping going on and their fake façade and reputation would be at risk. Anyway, Narc A had never been on my side. They can be so cunning and deceitful. We never know what their hidden motives are. The big loser is A.

          1. K says:

            You are correct; they are cunning and deceitful, and it is time to throw in the towel and concede. Narcissists are a royal pain-in-the-ass and I am trying to eradicate them all from my life…except for HG. Right now I am going by the proverb: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

      3. loveyourselfnowgirl says:

        @ K – excuse my ignorance but what does NoFuC mean? I am new to all of the abbreviations here. Something tells me I will laugh when you explain 🙂

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No Fuel Carrier.

        2. K says:

          Thanks for answering HG! I am reading about “The 30 Truths to the Wrong Focus” and I thought of Gabs. We focus on your kind, rather than us and it keeps us in situ, preventing us from moving forward, miserable, confused and wallowing in emotion.

        3. K says:


          I laughed when I read it in the article. NoFuCs* given. The abbreviations here are awesome. I will write the translations in my comments from now on. To wit, FUH*

          *follow up hoover

          *No fuel carrier

    2. Sillyolperson says:

      Dear E.B.
      Thankyou for your reply. I concur wholeheartedly with your comment, 100% correct. I was too kind and naive for my own good. I was helping someone I thought was in need. It took me a very long time to wake up I was being hoodwinked, as I was so gullible and trusting. I was “silly” and “old” enough, not to have noticed, hence, Sillyolperson ☺️

      1. loveyourselfnowgirl says:

        @HG and K… thank you… lol – I like the NoFuCs Given – I will go find it and read it now, and see if I ever was a FuC. LOL

        1. K says:

          You are welcome. If you scroll up to the article, you will find NoFuC in the paragraph before 2. Post Escape. I posit that, like me, you are/were a fuel carrier. The lexicon here is pretty cool and is very easy to learn.

        2. K says:

          To be clear, I wrote NoFuCs given in one of my comments above. But the correct explanation is located in the above posted article.

      2. E. B. says:


        Being naïve and trusting does not mean you are silly. You were helping someone who did not deserve your time and attention. We do the best we can with the resources, knowledge and understanding we have at a given time. Some people are lucky to find out about personality disorders at a young age. Punishing ourselves for not being able to notice the narcissist’s abuse from the beginning is abusing ourselves too. You are not a sillyoldperson at all. This is what narcissists want you to believe. Treating ourselves with compassion and understanding is important if we want to heal. I hope one day you will change your name for a better one. You deserve to be treated with respect.

      3. E. B. says:

        You are welcome. I am very sorry to hear that you have been abused all your life and you were not able to see it clearly. If you have chosen S…., then someone must have made you feel that way. This is not what you are at all. You are kind, caring and considerate. Another reason why you should change your screen name is that you are teaching other people (us) how to treat you. I feel uncomfortable using it because I am being rude to you every time I call you ‘Sillyolperson’. You can choose any name or initials you feel comfortable with.

  22. Overthinker says:

    Hg I just noticed for the first time ever he removed my pics from his facebook he never took them off before does this mean he has a new primary source relationship status hasn’t changed nO new pics of any woman just mine are gone or made private

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not necessarily.

      1. Overthinker says:

        Thank you

    2. Antifragile says:

      My was taking down somebody else’s photos, when I was long time Primary already. Then posted. Then took away again. Then long time without anybody on the page (but communicated with someone in real), then posted another’s… I believe it is independent process – photo posting, photo hiding etc.
      Probably it functions as messages for different people.
      That was message for you to activate your worrying about his acts, to remind of himself.
      My also likes to play blocking-unblocking game – in Skype, in FB etc. And changing nicknames there also all the time.
      Kind of “Hey, keep an “iron ass” regime, don’t relax about me! See, I unblocked you again!”

    3. Tappan Zee says:

      OT—STOP looking on his FB

      1. Overthinker says:

        If only I could and he has three Facebook that I know of its a lot of time I hadn’t looked for awhile saw that and it really upset me I never should have looked feel like I’ve been dumped a second time

      2. Overthinker says:

        Antifragile I was thinking same thing he either doesn’t want someone to know about me or was a message to me to hurt me

  23. K says:

    My MMRN sent me a box of individual 8 ounce cartons of milk for our daughter’s lunch. I have dubbed it “The Amazon Hoover”. I can’t resist: NoFuCs given.

  24. sarabella says:

    Then why do ‘we’ end up displaying many of those unwanted behaviors? I have read about how crazy interacting with one of you can make us feel and soon, we are doing the stalking, snooping, obsessive contact, etc. This is why we wonder if we were the narc afterall, because we end up behaving really crazy. You could say, it came from us wanting to rekindle the golden period after a discard, but some of us are so blown away by what you do, that we really go crazy. Those who walked right away and licked their wounds in private, never have that layer of ‘god, the things I said and did”. I wish I could say he wouldn’t leave me alone, but he managed to rig it so it was ME who wouldn’t leave him alone. I am having a 9 month mini relapse and when I see what I am struggling with right now, its wanting to poke him online, vent on him with what I am feeling now, but then, it would really make me look like the one who won’t leave him alone.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are addicted to us. Your emotional thinking has just one aim; feed that addiction. That means your emotional thinking takes over and has you do these ‘crazy’ things in order to achieve its aim.

      1. Tappan Zee says:

        You are addicted to us. Your emotional thinking has just one aim; feed that addiction. That means your emotional thinking takes over and has you do these ‘crazy’ things in order to achieve its aim.

        ^ right.

      2. K says:

        Repetition works well here, thank you. Your comment to OT made me smile.

      3. Nuit Étoilée says:

        So what do you recommend for breaking the addiction as much as possible?

        Is there more recommended reading? (which book of yours?)

        .acknowledging there will forever be that tiny crevice you left on our hearts..

        (I welcome all commenters on this)

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are correct that reading Exorcism is part of the process and consulting with me will also arm you to reduce the addiction and build your logic defences.

        2. K says:

          Nuit Étoilée
          The logic replaces the emotion, so I recommend that you keep reading and posting comments. Read, read, read. Don’t stop till you feel better.

      4. Nuit Étoilée says:

        *found the answer to my own question – Exorcism (correct?)

        Right.. adding to my reading list.

      5. Nuit Étoilée says:

        Thank you HG – I definitely appreciate the value of a consult w you. Your guidance is irreplaceable.

        K – I have been called emotional all my life. I have tried to learn “appropriate” responses to different situations, mask my passion to various things… I know my logical thinking is a weak area.. this makes all of this quite a challenge for me.

        Thank you immensely for your encouragement!

        1. K says:

          Nuit Étoilée
          The logic here is excellent and you are in the right place. It will take time but you will get better. I feel great and I am happy. No more chupacabras in my life anymore.

    2. Catherine says:


      I can relate to that. I too have wondered if I am the narcissist even though I’m as far from being one on the scale as I possibly can be. The addiction and the pure obsession are devastating and I too ended up displaying his behaviour, controlling, being jealous, disbelieving everything he said, checking up on him. Ugh..!!
      I wish you all the strength in your nine month relapse.

      1. sarabella says:

        Catherine, I am good, I made it past without incident. It was close for a few moments. I need to think about why it reared up so hard after so long. Nine months is a long time so

        The worst of it is that at one point, before I had any clue of what he was, he made some comment about me being jealous would be the end of it or something. At the time, we were just becoming friends. After a long 30 years of seing each other. I remember thinking, why would I be jealous? He was acting like I was so important, why would I be jealous if I had his attention as he claimed…. found out later why.

        You know what stops me from ever poking that old hurt again? Years ago, when I identified someone who would later help me, that person had posted something about him assaulting women, her. He posted something about, “Yeah, and they keep coming back.” I remember reading it and feeling so sick. It was well before I found this site. I know why many of his victims go back to him where he lives… desperate poverty drives hungry (literally) girls to do anything.

        But I am not hungry, broke or poor. I won’t be one of those anymore. I have to accept that this did evolve, through NO FAULT of my own, into an addiction. Everything he did, was designed to addict me so that I became a junkie looking for him for that time, it’s not my fault.

        I am pretty sober these days. Once in a while, I get really sad, comparing the illusion of who I thought he was to who he ended up being. It felt good, you know, to think I was actually loving him at long last, never grasping just how deeply fake it all was.

        I think that is what bothers me the most now with this 9 month flare up. How incredibly fake he was. And is.

    3. Yolo says:

      The addiction is so strong and evident to others but for some reason we don’t see it and continue to make excuses. It becomes more nauseating to read but I understand it’s purpose. I even question if it’s real. The pain the one suffers and have to come to grips with can be so devastating it makes me wonder am I just crazy asf or if they are that smart. Once you realize who and what they are for me it’s easier to bare.

  25. Jane Hall says:

    HG is it possible to stay friends with the narc? Insist on living in your own home and do not permit them to come into that environment. But, maybe meet up for coffee in town. Or chat on the phone. Going NO CONTACT seems to final and difficult. Even cruel. At least if I lived in a different house to the narc and only saw him occasionally – that would seem less explosive. Why is no contact so vital? I know of one couple who lived apart and just met up for meals and a chat occasionally. They were married. Couldn’t live together though. Thanks.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Because each interaction with the narcissist bolsters the emotional infection and risks your emotional thinking conning you into further interactions so that you end up ensnared again. You may say now, that will never happen and I believe your good intention, but when your emotional thinking has hold of you, that resistance vanishes, therefore why take the risk. Indeed, your question is caused by your own emotional thinking.
      No Contact may be difficult but it is effective. He is a narcissist – why have anything to do with that person (beyond the necessary say if you have shared parenting).
      If he or she is a narcissist – GOSO – no excuses because excuses are emotional thinking and does not amount to good decisions.

      1. Tappan Zee says:

        – no excuses because excuses are emotional thinking and does not amount to good decisions.

        ^amen. i coped this entire reply and saved it. priceless.


      2. Noname says:

        Wow, Tudor. It was a powerful speech. It was a glimpse of real you. Perfect.

      3. Jane Hall says:

        Thanks for your reply. I know you are right and it is the only way to freedom. I have all the sins of the Empath and I feel like it would be abandoning my strange, highly-strung oldest child. I know it is all emotional conning and traps me.

    2. Sillyolperson says:

      Dear Jane,
      I was friends, he absolutely did my head in! The longer you’re friends, the worse it gets. It becomes game playing! It’s so insidious, you won’t even notice. The coffee, the text message, the phone call, that’s how it starts! He will start to stalk you, then bump into you at the shops out of nowhere and thus it begins. I don’t feel you can insist or permit them to do anything, they do what they want. They have a hidden agenda you aren’t even aware of. I’ve been ghosted and hoovered as a friend.
      Going no contact is definitely not cruel and not difficult, our own thinking is what makes it difficult, they are the ones who are cruel. It has to be final. You do not want an explosion of any size.
      These people are relentless. Please leave now before he gets you hooked, line and sinker. Because sink you will, it just depends on how deep.
      Please keep reading Mr Tudors blog
      Best heartfelt wishes

      1. E. B. says:

        I totally agree with you. Narcissists see people as objects and cannot connect emotionally. They cannot appreciate friendship. They cannot accept a win-win relationship. If you are kind to them, they believe you are naïve and that you do not notice what they are doing. They will use you for fuel, character traits and residual benefits. They will never feel truly loved or appreciated by anybody because their only purpose is to use people for their own purposes and to feel they win, even if it is just the opposite.
        May I ask why you chose that screenname?

      2. loveyourselfnowgirl says:

        Ditto to everything you said. They are an EX for a reason. Keep it that way and save yourself from extra suffering. Their inability to sever ties is related to their need to control and keep their hooks into you. There is never any closure with a narc, and being “friends” is one way to ensure no closure. No contact is the only way. I learned that the hard way.

      3. Siv says:

        Happened to me with a couple of friends who seem to have this sadistic game going on.

        They will stablish a friendship with the target, bring them into their life, include them in everything, once you are really involved, one of them may block you over the phone while the other may call you and ask why you blocked the other friend and why are you mad, the first gashlight, but you still do not know it yet. Soon everything goes back to normal, until another trick comes up. You may be invited to an outing, everything sees normal but one of the friends you usually saw in the gatherings do not show nomore, like they did not even exist, then another, then another… supposedly close driends.The explanation of the narc is whatever they may invent, that makes the absent person look like an abuser

        Until is your turn…

        You may be forced to leave or you may be spooked and leave yourself, then the hoover attempts will begin, usually ignoring them infuriates them and unless they find another fuel resources they may continue trying to contact you like nothing happened, veiled threats combined with nice words and switching to accusations of you harassing them.

        NC is the best solution, as I am already repulsed by them and their flying monkeys

      4. Jane Hall says:

        I am a big fan of HG. Wish I had found all this out years ago. Would have saved me a lot of grief. Our house has sold and I see it as an opportunity to escape. He thinks we can just go back to his old town away from my family and hometown. I know I cannot ever buy another house with him. Its just the thought of going no contact. I just don’t know if I can do it. I am a Empath and total softie. But HG is right – My H would worm his way back in. Sounds like you know what I mean! House I will buy next will be with my half of the money from the sale of this house. I feel sad about hurting his mum and dad and causing hurt all round. But I just cannot continue to live with him.

        1. K says:

          Jane Hall
          Lose the guilt and focus on yourself. ET* will be your undoing.

          *emotional thinking

    3. loveyourselfnowgirl says:

      I tried being friends with a narc after dating, and the same pattern repeated itself. He kept mentioning that I wanted him back as a partner, despite bluntly saying that he wasn’t capable of intimacy several times.
      I started doing more on my own, and the more independent I became, the more the same asshole-ish games started to happen.
      Like you, I thought “oh ending it and never seeing him again is too final, and it feels mean and cruel.”
      If he wasn’t a good partner, why take him back as a friend. They are an ex for a reason. Many reasons. Being friends isn’t going to make it easier. It made it more difficult because I had to deal with the remorse of not following my instincts for a second time. They. Don’t. Change. Ever. And they rely on our empathy to continue to accept the unacceptable. Being friends with a narc basically says “It’s okay that you treated me like shit. I will be good to you as always, and you can still treat me like shit as a friend.” Trust me, it is painful to do this. Spare yourself the agony and move on. You can find better friends than he will ever be. In fact, invest the energy into being your own best friend. Sounds cheezy but it is so true. Forget being nice and making the break-up easier. It. Is. Definitely. Not. Going. To. Make. It. Easier!!!!!!

      1. Jane Hall says:

        Yes, being an Empath he has always known the right thing to say. To keep stringing me along. He has health problems and I feel guilty about leaving it so late to leave him, but he sees me now as a nurse maid for him and on top of the mental and emotional merry go round – I cannot continue. He will probably live to be 70 and if I stay and put up with his nonsense will NOT.

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