Poll : At Disengagement or Escape What Did You Want to Do?


You ought to know by now that whether you have escaped or even when you have been disengaged from the golden rule is to get out and stay out – once you know, you go. You may know this now but what was your immediate reaction when you found yourself disengaged from (or at the time more likely it was dumped, left, ghosted, broken off from, told to leave etc) or less commonly if you escaped?

No contact would be the appropriate response but most people do not know what they are entangled with and therefore not only may they not realise that no contact is the most appropriate response, their surging emotional thinking is trying to cause them to maintain their involvement with the narcissist and duping them in the guise of apparent logic.

Did you want answers to what had happened? Did you want to sit down and try and sort matters out and fix the problems or at least try to part amicably? Did you want to launch into an angry tirade berating this person or did you try to or want to get them to come back and continue the relationship? Whichever it is (and you may choose as many as are applicable) what did you do and/or what did you want to do in the immediate moments following that disengagement or escape. As ever, do expand in the comments section.


Thank you for participating.

At the point of disengagement or escape which of the following did you want to do/did you ?

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154 thoughts on “Poll : At Disengagement or Escape What Did You Want to Do?

  1. windstorm says:

    Just now ran across this poll. Thought it was interesting because I did none of those things when I left him. I did go to a counselor, which I guess would be a third party, but that was more to help my confidence. I wasn’t trying to figure him out. I’d already done that. My focus was on how to get on with my life on my own.

  2. Shesaw says:

    I set up my escape.
    I could not block him, I was/am too emotionally attached to him. So I had to make him block me. I sent him a text that I would leave him alone and why – and he sent me a reply proving he had other appliances (what else is new) and unfriended me. I then could not resist telling him, shortly, that I wanted to provoke him into this reaction. That was ‘the dressing down’ to me. I wanted to let him know that for once, I used him for my purpose, instead of the other way around. He blocked me right away.
    I still care about him.

    1. sarabella says:

      Sounds like me. I could never block him. I knew I had to get away as something really bad was happening so I told him to unfriend me. We ended in an hour long text fight. Eventually, he unfriended and blocked me. I felt relief, sad at how easily he did it. And then the next morning, he undid it with a message he didn’t want to be mean.

      At the time, I thought wow, he thinks so much of him self and so little of me that he knew that was mean and did it anyway.

      Then I thought, he cared fo rme too much to do that.

      I wish I could remember when this was in the timelines without searching because if it had stayed that way, me blocked, I would never have been manipulated into lending money. 🙁 Which I got back but it was hell.

      I stil have never been able to block him. He has me half blocked. We don’t talk. I will say it to remind myself that I will never reach out to him, he will never reach out to me. Its a wierd thing.

      When we were in the thick of it, I would try to block him, but I would go into the most massive panic imagineable. I couldn’t breath, I would panic like crazy and within seconds, I would undo it. I tried and tried. I will never understand I I could have gotten into such a panic, over and over.

      So, I often just drove him to block me back then. I made him try to go away. He finally has entirely stopped caring whatever bit he did care. I also told him, hard to explain, that I used the dynmaic to understand and heal something in me and that contrary to his thoughts that I had no pride, I was well aware of what I was doing and used him to work through something.

      I don’t know of anyone who ever posted here who said like you that you drove him to block or leave. Its a very hard thing to explain. I still care about him, too. But I will never reach out again, that much I know. Things are a bit raw right now again for a number of reasons. Maybe its because its going on a year since we ever spoke and that anniverary is coming up. And entire year went by is pretty final.

  3. 12345 says:

    Gone like vapor at Christmas. Literally Christmas Eve and gone. No words, nothing. New Years, Birthday, Valentine’s Day all passed by. Crickets. No more incoming texts from him.

    I would text and he would respond with bad timing, work, stress, life is so hard right now. I basically held on until April when I finally got the “it isn’t fair for me to hold onto you when I can’t give you all you deserve…blah, blah, blah”. Classic meaning of I’m going to come back but I want to be able to say I was doing the best thing for you text. I quit texting at that point but it took FOUR months after disengagement for me to really “get it”. Embarrassing? Yes. I just couldn’t accept what was happening. Refused to accept it.

    Fast forward year and a half…why did you dump me text from him. I was enraged that he would act as if I had dumped him. I rehearsed and expected every hook I could think of but that one. I was shocked that he would say I dumped him! I reacted immediately with fury and injustice. Perfect storm. I could feel him smiling on the other end of the phone. I poured more fuel into him in that moment than I had in our entire relationship. He knew that would make the volcano erupt. Smart guy. Dumb girl.

  4. Twilight says:

    I wanted answers to the why.
    I never had a “label” for what they were. When I did I researched all I could yet still could not find the why. All I could find is what I already knew.
    Thanks to you HG, you answered the why.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

    2. Yes, that, Twilight! HG answered the why for me and it has changed everything.

  5. ANM says:

    It has been about 2 years since the immediate Disengagement. In terms of Crossing The Emotional Sea, I am on the 3rd Battle. I no longer think his thoughts that he drilled into my mind, I no longer compare other men to him-I actually enjoy meeting/dating people who are not him, I no longer try to please him. Since we have a child in common, that is the crack in the door to engage. He still manages to find ways to be disappointing as ever, no one cares because he has set up his own facade management. But I literally had to create a completely new life. I had no choice. I went from a very Empathic Job, to a finance job that I am very good at. What makes me good, Is I have to strategically think out everything, and there is an intensity to it as well. I developed the skills from dealing with the Narcissist. I don’t mean to sound cocky, but I get praised often… until such an incident like, one of my colleagues taps me on my shoulder from behind me and I scream bloody murder… There are still signs and damage to repair.

  6. narc affair says:

    Another great poll! Ive only ever had one time where i can say i really thought it was over with my narc and it only lasted a week which is laughable in itself. What went thru my mind at the time is wanting to escape the depression, emptiness and pain. Eventually it lead to wanting to be back in the relationship. Learning what i have from here i see it was withdrawals and if i had stayed the course i wouldve gotten thru it but one thing had been missing and that was a true no contact. I left my avenues of communication open. Its been 4 years since then and knowing all that i do helps but actually implementing it is quite another thing.

  7. Sandra says:

    Post escape I went No Contact. I researched narcissism, and my clearly compatible traits to narcissism. I learned I am a Super Empath and I was his highly prized compliant DLS for some years. I really felt I had dodged a bullet as I suffered from no cruel disengagement or knew of any smears. I sought closure on my own.

    I have never kept a platonic friendship with any ex-friend/lover/husband after a failed relationship. No Contact was an intuitive choice for me.

    I surprised myself at allowing the current narcissist to breach my no contact but I think I know why. My narcissistic strand wants to watch him squirm as he fails to recover his Prime Aims.

    I risk a malice obsession if I am replaced with better supply sure. But logic. He powers my benign hoovers from the devaluations of IPPS/IPSSs. Mids are lazy and less prone to aggression…they just want to be adored again. He is careful with his facade and paranoid of exposure. I think he came out as a drug addict to cover the more stigmatic underlying problem and is building his new facade as a counselor and advocate in the town he was raised in. His innate entitlement is tempered by a shortage of hubris and mostly I see victim stories and criticisms of others.

    I can almost hear HG’s disgusted “tsk” and “yawn” from across the pond at my rationalizations.

    It is like I have put my shitty underwear back on after a cleansing shower.

    I know.

  8. Petra says:

    In my case things escalated quickly. I was contacted by my replacement to let me know what is going on. At that time only he said he has feelings for her and not for me. I wanted to help making things work between them but quickly found out the amount of lies he has told me from the beginning of our “illusional” relationship, and the amount of lies he said to her about me. He kept stalking her because she decided to stop everything, even got in trouble with the police . It so amazing how they follow the same pattern. What really helped alot is i discovered your posts H.G at the really right moment. It helped me explain what happened. Once again thanks for your work.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  9. The Gassed Light says:

    I escaped. I had made several attempts to leave, but nothing really clicked. However, the last time I saw him, we had a major fight and it was as if a light switch was flipped on. I could see everything. I was overwhelmed with connections and began researching abuse, narcissism the next day… everything made sense. Your blog was extremely helpful in validating my experiences. I was done.

    Two days later I hired a therapist to guide me through undoing his knots. He made several attempts to connect with me, but I blocked every form of communication I could or ignored what couldn’t be blocked. It’s been almost six months since I left and I’ve been very determined to not look back.

    I think it helps that I recently discovered hundreds of intimate photos of him with his first cousin posted on an old public photo site. I always knew there was something up with their relationship. I suspected cheating, in fact I knew he cheated, but the cousin was a big surprise. All abuse aside, crossing a family boundary like that is a deal breaker I will not accept so it keeps me focused on what is best for myself.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I am pleased that my work has provided you with the validation that you required. Sometimes a Full Horror Moment , such as your discover of the photographs, can provide you with the ‘jolt’ that is needed to push you into a position of looking to effect change and stiffen your resolve, to achieve your freedom.

    2. BurntKrispyKeen says:

      The Gassed Light… I understand your pain in discovering those photos. I am so sorry you had to be hurt in such a disgusting way. Mine was seeing the 30 plus emails he sent me of his exchanges with women he found on Craigslist. He only sent them to me because my suspicions had grown regarding his dishonesty, so I called him “a piece of shit.” That was enough to light the flame. And as HG explains, it was also enough of a ‘jolt’ to allow my escape.

      We tried many times to sit down and talk. I was desperate for answers, so he’d invite me out or over to his place in the sweetest way… but the needed conversation never came. He simply wouldn’t give me the answers. This is why I appreciate Narcsite. Here, I find the answers.

      Since allowing me to take a glimpse at all of his pursuits (while swearing commitment to only me) he has yet to admit that there is another in his life. He still tries to portray the lonely bachelor while also bragging about ‘casual’ conversations he has with other attractive women. But he always implies something is wrong with them… not good enough. I think he does this to try to make me jealous but also to lure me back.

      Right after his email admissions, he asked what he needed to do to get me back? I told him nothing… that after that, I simply couldn’t. Then, he tried to keep me as a friend. I was so hurt that I told him, “I’ll be the only one or I’ll be nothing.”

      But the truth is… I’m stuck. I haven’t been able to move on. I’m too afraid. And I’m ashamed to admit that I still love him.

      There is a huge part of me that wants to help him. That desire was part of my initial draw. I somehow knew he needed me. I saw the wounded little boy that lives deep within, so I wanted to mend his wounds and show him the way.

      Through all of the wisdom offered on this site, from both HG and his readers, I am starting to see that task is out of my range. But I still struggle.

      So, The Gassed Light, I hope that your horrific discovery is enough to keep you focused on your recovery. May you move forward and never look back.

      That’s my wish for us all… that we progress.
      Thank you, HG, for your help in keeping me focused and on task. I just didn’t know it would be this hard.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        You are welcome BKK.

      2. The Gassed Light says:

        We are human. We are empaths and so, I understand your confessed desire to help him. I understand to still have love. Although I have completely cut ties with mine and am “moving on”, there are still moments of sadness and longing for what I hoped it was. I try to rationalize why the way he is and feel sympathetic. It’s in our nature. Every day since I left has been a challenge to stay strong and refocus everything on myself and a journey for self love. I wish you the best in your healing and path towards recovery. Thank you so much for reaching out and sharing. Best.

  10. Kathleen says:

    * year 1- torrid affair. Both of us with others. I told my good partner after 4weeks. I moved out after 2 months. She/ lied to and snuck around on her primary source and me while still living with primary source. Told me she’s saving $ to buy a house and current source is awful and had anger mgmt issues. Narc was fired from a job. Narc once said “maybe i do have a personality disorder “ (Red flags flying on dishonesty/some silence of course and more)
    *year 2- more of the same and worse. Narc bought a fixer house where prev owner left all their stuff. Major distractions with that and the split from primary source-since she finally moved out after a turbulent 18 years with 2 years breakup? In there- facts fuzzy) Was in no rush tho! (More red flags)
    *year 3 – I began voicing my displeasure more often. Stated “I dont think you can meet my emotional needs”. Triangulation and silent treatments, circular conversations and lying-etc- i was reducing my expectations and trying to enjoy running around and sex. But it never worked since my heart wants MORE. my desire to have sex or even try very hard to get closer(impossible) is severely waning since I’ve long realized it’s a dead end. Sex is intermittent. I try to go my own way more often. Shes still blamng me/I’m boring. I just want to have a stable routine life – she needs “MORE FRIENDS “ I’m hopeful somehow i can end it.. or somone will come along and she’ll leave. Or she’ll die since she’s drinking, smoking abd has already had cancer and a lung spot and takes anti anxiety meds.
    *Year 4- murky- same crap. New supply located! Right under my nose. New supply seeks out narc and falls at her feet. Within 2 months I am out! She brings new supply to dinner/event with me! Just a friend! She gets caught in lies- but new supply falls in line! She’s a masterful liar and good inbed. That’s all it takes! I had instituted a 3 month no talking b4 I was sure of the new supply. However after the dinner/ I installed no contact. I was still really mad, angry and hurt. She was mad at me since she thought I was a risk to exposing her. She asked for key back. I went over and returned her key. As she asked. I brought some other crap of hers. We talked for an hour. She went from aggressively backing me in the corner- to saying coyly “ kathleen you know how I feel about you” – we went out and had a smoke and she said “it’s a shame we have so much in common”- to nothing much . A hug and she shed a crocodile tear or two. Last words from her “ we’ll talk”.
    Shes been seen with new supply in various -holding hands. —new supply is more assertive than i- at least on surface- so I wonder how thst will play out- i was way too passive and empathetic to her- Ugh. Never again.
    I wonder if lesser or mid-range or also part borderline.

    —-done deal—— i think she always wanted to hold on to the woman b4 me-she was an 18 year source- who I’ve spoken with. She was an LMFT – she had her tooth chipped, was chased, put up with lies and all thst. But kicked her out. And she’s hoovered her for “divorce ressons “ but previous woman stays clear.
    Narc was even at the end of our 4 years- saying her ex (18 years) was driving by her house. Which she isn’t- she has a new girlfriend in reality.

    1. Sophia says:


      Borderline personality disorder and Narcissistic personality disorder are found in the cluster b category so there may be overlapping traits that you see.

      As far as lesser or mid range…Maybe upper lesser lower mid range? HG gives great consultations if you’re still questioning what you have went through.

      What is a LMFT?

      Best wishes. 😃

      1. K says:

        It could be this, Sophia: Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT)

      2. Kathleen says:

        LMFT- licensed marriage and family therapist.

      3. Kathleen says:

        PS- thank you for your thoughts Sopia.

  11. M. says:

    Find a new romantic partner immediately. This was what I had always done. Erase the old with the new, better version. That was their defeat and my closure. This is what I wanted, but I didn’t. Not this time. I was too numb, too broken, too tired, too unlucky-or, too lucky. I had to fight with no excuses, no band aids, no music, just by myself, against his newfound happiness.

  12. Perse, Queen of Hell says:

    The first time I escaped, I just left, feeling brokenhearted. I thought the explanation was he wanted someone else, and I don’t share, and I won’t fight over someone who made their choice.

    The second time I escaped, I was still brokenhearted that anyone could hate me so much, I didn’t know what I had done to deserve such treatment. I started finding out about psychopaths, but found a better description: narcissist.
    However, my no contact didn’t include email, so an emergency lured me back, and he being on most exemplary behavior for him, soon had me thinking I might have been wrong.
    I wish that narcsite had been around then.

    Dear HG,

    My knight in shining armor, I hope to never meet!
    But you are my Information to Protect myself Primary Supply .

    Much gratitude and affection,


  13. Julie says:

    I’ve been in 2 narcissistic relationships. The first lasted 7 years and I obviously had no idea what was going on. When I walked, it was after 4 months of constant fighting with escalating crazy-making. “Luckily” my first narcissistic partner wasn’t very skilled so his gaslighting game was poor and actually laughable in some cases. The switch that I had to leave was the day he hurt the dog in front of me. No remorse, just righteous anger.

    The next two months were spent in a total fog, finding a therapist, and trying to understand. He introduced me to words like gaslighting and narcissism. When I went deeper, everything started to make sense. I figured out that he’d had new supply lined up and it coincided with those last 4 months. I did warn her because the opportunity came up. She didn’t listen and I heard they were together for a year.

    I calculated an escape plan to leave the city because the combination of his smear campaign and my behaviour at the end had ruined any chances of my getting work in our field any time soon. I chose to drive across the country to go back home. I quietly found out when he would be out of the apartment and I scheduled everything within a 5 hour period. Picking up the car, the movers arrival and completion time. I knew that I obviously needed to inform him that I was gone at some point because I took the dog and cat but my choice was to ensure that I was far enough away that I couldn’t be guilted into returning.

    LC occurred only for a short period until I started to see, what I now know to be his traits. His arrogant assumption that it meant I was giving up my career because I left him. Then a victim story telling me about something stupid he’d done to make me feel bad for him was the last time we emailed each other. I was glad to be away from his idiocy and constantly losing of incredibly important property by that point. NC followed and hasn’t been broken.

    I spent the following 2 years feeling like I had been blown apart. Randomly picking up pieces of myself and saying, “Oh look… there’s my sense of humour!” “That’s right, I remember that making me laugh before all of this…” The biggest regret that I had wasn’t so much the devastation of what he’d done to my head and spirit, it was the loss of time.

    The most recent (a little over a year long) was the one I ended just a few weeks ago. I have healed far quicker because I realized what he was doing and saw the hoovering patterns coming.

    I don’t worry about his next supply because I’m more endeavoured to protecting myself and I know she won’t listen anyway.

    I no longer require answers because I know they don’t exist. It was never about me. None of it was real.

    I am fully NC.

    That’s how I see this heinous thing that has happened. It had nothing to do with me. It was never about me. In fact the way I see it… the aspects that make me amazing Narcissistic Supply, are the things that make me an amazing and beautiful person/partner.

    I’m compassionate, giving, loving, fun, silly, generous, etc… Those are beautiful things to be.

    I may have been taken advantage of, but that does not and cannot change my core being of who I am.

  14. An_eternal_student says:

    He had disengaged (though we were still living in the same house) long before my escape. I was invited to breakfast with Mr. Narc and it. (Oh she was hideous!).
    The words used: would you like to come with us to breakfast….was telling. It implied i was a third, odd person out, fifth wheel, etc. (polyamoury was the goal. harmony of love among many…in this case three).
    I was angry and hurt.
    When we arrived at the breakfast place they left the car (as a couple…not waiting for me)…there had been so much build up of emotion of all the painful hurtful and spiteful things he’d been doing any little thing would set me off.
    After having a primal scream in the car (looking like a madwoman i imagine) i walked into the restaurant.
    Calmly i walked to where they were sitting (oh look at a table…where i get to sit by myself)…
    I didnt sit down. I stated my case. He stared at me and didnt respond at all. I shared that this situation wasnt working. Still silence. Based on his non involvement in the conversation i said i thought it best that i move out. Silence again.
    I told him i was understanding his silent response as acquiescing with my statements. Still silence.
    I asked when i should move out (thinking i would receive a date of when i would be moved out by…) He said “Today is as good a day as any.”

    I did exactly what i wanted to do in this moment. Even though i was mortified and unsure exactly how i would find a place ……i did it. I had a new home the same day. I went back (with friends) took my things and i escaped.
    I won! I didnt get to take everything i wanted but i have everything today i never had with him.
    He did a huge favour for me.

    I want to say it again…
    I win!!

    And this is when i found this site. This is how ive remained escaped and not been hoovered back in. Its been a tremendous journey and continues to be.

    Many thank yous to the author for situational need to share this insightful information and to everyone who supports and participates. I learn something each and every time i am here.

    Warm energy.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  15. KRG says:

    I just want to thank HG for this wonderful website.
    The silent treatment had just started for the first time in the relationship and I went crazy looking for answers. Found narcsite and went NC. Took a few weeks to perfect it though.

    Thank you, HG Tudor.
    Your books and this website are indeed a life saver. I would have been living a horrible, horrible life in a country like Afghanistan otherwise.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  16. numb says:

    I escaped. Capitol felony charge, trial pending, court ordered no contact…
    I was still afraid to venture out and risk a run in with this narcissistic sociopath. A friend insisted I was being ridiculous, that I was safe with him, he would be by my side, etc. So I go out to a concert. Mind you, its been over a year of no contact. Turns out he stood behind us the entire night, waited for most of the club to clear out and for my friend to go to the restroom, then he approached me. In my face, calling me names until he sees my friend returning, then leaves like the coward that he is.
    So it seems we are never safe. HG, why would he be so foolish? He risked going to prison just to make sure I knew he was watching me. Why?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Fuel. Driven by his sense of entitlement, lack of accountability, lack of boundary recognition. There was an opportunity to hoover you and he took it, notwithstanding the associated risk.

    2. Jasmine says:

      I know how terrifying that must have been for you. I’m so sorry. *hugs 💞 so so sorry

      1. numb says:

        Thank you Jasmine, it was terrifying. I fell to my knees as he walked away. To add to my frustration the friend who convinced me I was being ridiculous says, what a coincidence. Idiot. I hate that no one truly understands what we are dealing with.

        1. Jasmine says:

          YES! That is incredibly frustrating. If we try and educate, we look obsessed or crazy. If we stay quiet, then no one will ever understand. Tough choice.

    3. E. B. says:

      Hi Numb,
      I assume you did not broadcast you were going to that concert. If your friend protects your ex who is facing capital felony charges, if she does not take you seriously, tells you are ‘ridiculous’ and your ex is standing right behind you after over a year of NC, I would be careful who you trust. She does not seem to be on your side. She could be the one who is giving him information behind your back. “Muddy Hell” explains how narcissists do it.

      1. numb says:

        Hi E.B.,
        Thank you for your concern, that means a lot! Not the case here though. This is a guy friend that I met after the N. He has no idea who my ex is, however my ex has definitely seen us out together before. He is just naive. Sadly, most everyone is where narcissists are concerned.

        1. E B says:


          It is true that most people are naïve. They do not believe us until it happens to them.

          It must have been frightening to see your ex standing right behind you. That was not a coincidence. From what you wrote he must be a Lesser. Do you know how he found out that you were going to that concert?

          Gullible, trusting, credulous people are very easy to manipulate. If they can, narcissists will contact your family members, new and old friends of yours and acquaintances to get some information about you. Your supporters can become the narcissist’s Turncoat Coterie and Turncoat Lieutenants. This happened to me. I wish I knew about it before.
          Just in case you have not seen it yet, there is an excellent article about it called “The Narcissist’s Army”.

      2. numb says:

        My sentiments exactly!!

  17. ZE says:

    HG, what if I want a deal with N? Meaning after having escaped with NC I want to tell N that I know exactly what drives a narc and they have been X rayed to their bones but nevertheless I would like to offer my support as a friend?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I assume you were once intimately involved with this narcissist, you have escaped and now you are considering explaining you understand what drives them and you wish to offer support from the perspective of a friend. If this is correct, it is pointless because

      (a) The narcissist – most likely Lesser or Mid Range – will not accept what you tell them about knowing what they are; and
      (b) This is your emotional thinking causing you to engage with the narcissist (under the veneer of doing something good in order to cause you to want to do it) but this will ultimately lead to your ensnarement once again because your emotional thinking will reach a tipping point.

      1. Geminimom says:

        I see/understand what ZE is trying to do and I to felt the same way. But I took it a different way. Instead of telling my almost ex husband he is a narcissist, which I did along time ago, and a big mistake, I recently decided to tell him he has very high awareness of what or who he is. so when I refer to this disorder I use the level of awareness as the label. He took it as a complement when I did it that way. I then told him he knows how to tell if someone is a good person or not, and if he can tell me if I ask him about someone if they are bad or good. He got excited on that and asked me who I wanted to know about. I told him nobody. Later I started asking him if our kids are like him or me. He said A is like him and B is like me. I later asked him about my friends and he said which ones are no good. also, he never liked my narc friends. Then I asked about my dad and his wife. The wife is horrible. And he said he always knew she’s bad and he pointed to his head like he keeps a file. He then said Your dad is a good man. I stopped asking about people after our court and I moved out. I don’t want to help him so I’m acting like I hate him. I never asked about his family members because I know he will freak on that. Im guessing because he sees himself like them, but I’m not sure. If you know, I would like your input.

        So, what I’m trying to ask is is my narc faking this or is he excepting the fact that I know what he is and it is ok with him. I also want to say I am genuine in my relationship with him and all my questions and actions are real. Now at the same time I don’t trust him and I’m very aware of my emotions with him thanks to you. But just saying he was very receptive when I approached in that manner, and I didn’t do it as a game, it is how I found a better way to communicate and relate to him, but he still ignores me and I’m good with that. But when he needs help I’m the first on the list.

        My narc is
        Silent treatment
        Not violent but has a way that lets you know not to make him mad
        Extremely manipulating like a master at it
        Uses family and people to do things for him
        Thinks he is right
        Never apologize only to others

        Thank you.

      2. ZE says:

        Hi HG, thank you for your reply. At start she told me she was looking for a kind of mentor in me to guide her. I had to bear all responsibility. It seemed she knew she needed help but did not how to cope with it. Looked like some kind of begging for help from frustration sometimes; she knew of course how it would all end up. Unfortunately I didn’t knew about the disorder at that time. I think believe N is between Mid and Greater. Leaves me with a feeling she can be helped somehow but only if she’s really willing to. And that is my biggest concern as of today. If not, it’s obviously a dead end.

    2. Sophia says:


      Been there, done that. Basically, everything HG predicts in his posts played out exactly how he said they would. I thought I was offering him something new that he’d value. No. That’s what we value, not what they value.

      I got to the point where I could check off everything HG wrote about as they happened. I stopped even wanting to put any effort into him. I think he sensed it because he picked a fight and said some really nasty things to me. I told him I’d had enough and I was done having him in my life. I hung up on him mid sentence. He has tried to email me twice since that day and I have not responded.

      Why didn’t I block his email? Basically, I wanted another narc box to check off. Hoover phrases were damn near identical. No apology like there would be with anyone else. Except, nobody else I’m friends with talks to me or puts me through what he has.

      Ask yourself, what do I need? What outcome am I looking for? Really sort through that.

      If you want him to accept you as a friend, that’s not going to happen. You’re a fuel source and that is not the same. My ex had no concept of true friendships. He had 2-3 “friends” that were very similar to him. This made me think he’d value my friendship that much more. WRONG.

      Use me as an example and save yourself some lost time and self esteem. I seriously wish I would have been this over it 2 years ago.

      Best wishes.

  18. echo says:

    I chose the first three as well as try to fix/help/heal and engage third parties. I just absolutely lost my goddamn mind. I replayed things over and over again in my head, and would fixate on something I said or did like that had to be the thing that fucked it all up. No reply on that then find another thing I did wrong to fixate on. And if I could just apologize enough or explain myself or.. Something..it had to be my fault, cause he was such a nice guy, and now it’s all gone to hell. But then I’d think more and realize no, there’s things that were definitely not fair. Then I’d get mad and lash out and just spew venom, and feel lonely and miss him and try to appeal to his kinky side. Going through that cycle over and over. Just a Rollercoaster and getting no reply. I actually thought maybe I was borderline or narcissist myself. Maybe I’m actually the bad guy. I couldn’t get any explanation or closure or anything. It was like being in a terrible limbo. Schrodinger’s cat. I started to wonder if he was even real. Maybe I made him up in some twisted dream.

    When I started learning about stuff it was like so many boxes getting ticked, so many questions getting answered. Not just about him but about my whole life. It all started making sense. But I still wonder if I am a bad person. Maybe I don’t deserve a “real” relationship, if I would even know what that is. In some ways all this stuff has answered a lot but in other ways it’s left me even more confused.

    1. numb says:

      No echo, you are NOT a bad person and you DO deserve a “real” relationship. Sounds like you are on the right track. Keep checking those boxes, stay positive. Seize the power!

    2. Jasmine says:

      echo, I understand completely! This stuff really messes with your head. *hugs* Just keep working on you

    3. Bibi says:

      No, echo, you are not a bad person, but only on the cusp of realizing how great you can become.

      Sounds cheesy, but it’s true. Your thoughts don’t go unheard in this group. I remember feeling just as you do, and crying over very much the same and having those whirlwind of emotions.

      I was literally crying in the fetal position for hours after consuming a bottle of wine. I did this for weeks.

      The important thing is to never let your guard down, and esp. if you choose to drink. If you feel like ripping into him or raging, or crying, do so here where you’ll be welcomed and comforted and subject to my silly jokes. 😛

      It sounds to me like you are healing. You will get there. I did.

      1. echo says:

        Thank you Bibi, and Jasmine and numb. I appreciate the encouragement and advice. This site is definitely a great resource with great people. And silly jokes are the best!

        I did (sometimes still do) have moments like that, of being curled up and just so, so sad. Down to the core. It wasn’t just my heart that got ripped out, it was my soul too. I’ve dealt with much worse physically from a lesser. But the way I felt after this last guy, N2.. the mental and emotional stuff cut so much deeper.

        Yet with time it’s so easy to forget. I looked back through my journal there was an entry reminding myself he is toxic, don’t go back. We really can’t let our guard down. But how do we live a normal fulfilling life? We can’t just live in fear forever.

  19. abrokenwing says:

    I didn’t know for sure that he is a narcissist at the time.
    After being cruelly disengaged I was obsessively searching for the answers online.Desperately trying to comprehend ,make sense of what had happened. I felt the need to repair things but I wasn’t really in the position …I just shut myself down.
    Driven by blame , feelings of being rejected and being a failure I wanted him back. Even that logic was telling me that this is bad for me.
    I wanted to be given another chance to prove him wrong and to keep him satisfied ….although I have never told him that.

  20. 1jaded1 says:

    Short and sweet. No contact. Thank you HG.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome 1jaded1.

  21. MLA - Clarece says:

    Being the Truth Seeker (as you call me) lol, I chose the answers relating to seeking reasons for his behavior, pleading to keep trying or figuring out what drives this behavior so I could fix the dynamic and create good closure. Mix that in with the occasional pop off to give a good dressing down.
    It has become much easier now, if JN pops in my head and I start to feel that curiosity on what he may or may not be thinking, I can counter with lots of self-talk remembering many of his mean, nasty remarks and actions and I quickly get distracted and lose interest.

  22. Catherine says:

    My immediate reaction was to try to sort things out. He’d physically abused me and I tried to make things right; I wanted an apology, an explanation; something or anything to explain his horrendous behaviour. I was conditioned into believing everything was my fault; so I thought in my haze I could talk to him, plead to his sanity. I wanted to fix and heal; that was always my role; I was the fixer and the healer and I thought I could do it once again. I’m so glad it didn’t work out that way now. Instead I very soon realised there would be no explanation from him, no excuse, and I had an imminent need of a context to explain what had happened to me so I started searching for what was wrong with him; my search for “silent treatments” led to narcissists, my search for narcissists led to you HG and here I am; six months later; managing my life again, feeling so much better. Thank you HG.

    1. Tappan Zee says:

      Yay Catherine! Soul sister ♥️

  23. Leolita says:

    Before I realised that he is a narcissist, all the times I was discarded I felt like I was going to die. I was desperate for answers, kept begging him to «Please just talk to me», and could not understand why, (so many why’s) or what I had done to deserve all the horribel treatment.

    It really ripped me of all self esteem, I was so broken and depressed, I just wanted to die. What was so devastating (but also helped to open my eyes), was the constant denial of closure. It would obviously be of no effort to him to ease my pain, since all I asked was to have a normal conversation, but every time he REFUSED to do so. That became a trend. Constant on and off, hoovering me back to discard me again, never explaining. If he did, all he did was blame me for everything; «you made me do it», «You bring out the worst in me» «you are crazy/ bipolar/ hysterical» «it is impossible to talk to you, you never listen» and so on…..the intervalls became shorter and the pain more and more overwhelming.
    I started thinking this is not normal. Usually one does not enjoy hurting people like that. «I do not talk about things» was the only answer I got. I started google’ing and found a Norwegian site (psykopati.blogg.no) who actually referred to narcsite.com and also recommended your YouTube channel. This was my life saver. I really am so grateful for the valuable information you share.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Leolita, I am pleased my work is of such assistance to you and I have always liked the Norwegians!

      1. Catherine says:

        Ouch! And the Swedes? The Norwegians and the Swedes are forever battling in a jokingly way.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I am a big fan of Gustavus Adoplhus and Axel Oxenstierna.

      2. Catherine says:

        The golden age of Swedish military operations then, yes. I’m glad you didn’t mention our present king Carl XVI Gustaf. He’s unfortunately become somewhat of a laughing stock here;)

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed it was, he put some stick about around the Baltic region.

      3. Bibi says:

        Henrik Ibsen! Liv Ullman!

      4. Bibi says:

        Ooh, I forgot to mention. Since we’re on Norway and Sweden, August Strindberg was a narcissist and misogynist while Ibsen was the empath who believed women should be empowered.

        Interesting difference.

      5. Sunniva says:

        Bibi, are you also Norwegian?

      6. Bibi says:


        No, I am not. Just a fan of Norwegian and Swedish art. The name I use is taken from the Swedish actress Bibi Andersson. Ingmar Bergman is ONE of my fave directors. But not my ONLY one. 😀

      7. Catherine says:

        Oh yes! I love Strindberg, Ibsen and Bergman too. Strindberg is my favourite though. Miss Julie;)

    2. K says:

      By denying closure they get all that lovely fuel.

      1. Leolita says:

        Yes. But before knowing this, the fuel- demanding behaviour just makes you go «why?» It scares me that no psychologist or medical person would be able to provide me with this information. if I did had not come across this blog focusing a lot on relationships (entaglement) with narcissists (and also explaining ALL the why’s and most of my own behavoiur) I would be lost, it seems……. I was very protective and would usually not listen, noone can tell me about my relationship, I would probably not believe them if they tried to tell me. I had to recognise myself and him, which I did through reading this blog, before I could believe it. It was a huge shock for me to realise, felt like finding out you are living in a nightmare, and that all my worst suspections came true. ‘Cause somehow deep down we all «know», there is something very wrong- we just did not have the tools to understand we were in a relationship with a mentally disturbed person and were being abused by a narcissist.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed, but you have now.

        2. K says:

          The lack of understanding in the medical community is appalling. I knew something was wrong, too, I just didn’t know what I was dealing with. My sister saw a psychologist for relationship abuse (husband) approximately 10 years ago and was never told she was being abused by a narcissist; I told her because I learned about it here. She told her primary care doctor about the abuse, too, and the doctor didn’t know about NPD, either. The medical community is useless. NPD abuse is an absolute nightmare but now we have the tools to understand and fight back. If it wasn’t for this blog, I would still be lost.

    3. Sunniva says:

      Hei Leolita

      As a fellow norwegian I also found HG and his material through that blog. Truly a life saving move. After reading HG’s blog and books, and consulting with him, I now have come a long way.
      He helped me out of the narcissistic relationships I was in, and he helped me prevent being ensnared by a new one.

      Keep on reading his material and consult with him, and your life will be narc-free (or you learn not to let them close) if you use the information he provides you in practise.

      Lykke til😊

      1. Leolita says:

        Glad to hear that, HG! And thank you for the reply, Sunniva, nice to hear from a Norwegian «sister» on this blog!

      2. Leolita says:

        Lykke til du og, Sunniva! 😘

    4. Sunniva says:

      Tusen takk Leolita😘

      1. Leolita says:

        It is somewhat ironical that we were all rescued from the narcissist by an even Greater Narcissist, I guess that is «fighting fire with fire»? 😊 who else could tell us this, not my doctor and not my therapist. I was in therapy and she said I was in a «limit breaking relationship». Did they all skip the classes regarding NPD? Seems the have no clue regarding the fact that we are a narcissist’s primary source. I guess this must be the biggest undiagnosed disorder there is. I am diagnosed C-Ptsd, but it really is «narcissistic abuse disorder»

        1. Jasmine says:


          I would love to see a therapist but am heaving a difficult time finding one with cluster-b knowledge. Seeing as how 1 in 6 have NPD, one would THINK more therapists would have some insight into the abusive relationships. As a victim/survivor it’s frustrating!

  24. Layla Gee says:

    I escaped. After 25 years of his abuse and getting pulled back in over and over. I packed my belongings and I left him. I have been No Contact for the 6 months since I left. I avoid any places he may be and I refuse to acknowledge any of his attempts to reach me. I went as far as finding an apartment that had underground parking so he does not know of my whereabouts…..must have come as a complete shock to him…..this is not the woman he once knew. I did want closure, I did want to scream, I did want him to beg, but since I prepared myself by doing research, I knew that I was better off working through those emotions on my own because I knew I would never get it from him. I am still single….he is enjoying his new supply….and I wouldn’t have it any other way <3

  25. Helen says:

    I ended it but I don’t think I was supposed to. He told me to ‘Walk away, walk way, find your perfect man’. He was drunk. I think I was supposed to say you ARE my perfect man. I didn’t hear anything for 2 days so then I assumed he was fine with my decision after all and, at the time, I was planning to end it in a couple of weeks anyway so I had no regrets. But then I had a change of heart and asked if we could try again. He said he would think about it, but when his response came it was brutal, totally over the top. I accepted it, but wanted an amicable follow-up meeting which he agreed to and then cancelled. After that I didn’t contact him again, thinking this was a normal, if abrupt and painful, break-up. It was only 10 days until the ‘funny business’ began….

  26. Bibi says:

    I did many of these once I discovered his lies. Cutting no contact took a number of months because I tried to understand and be on good terms, but the hurt within would not go away.

    Eventually when I wanted to ask him directly about his dishonesty, the narc exposed himself again and I saw that he was never going to change from being cruel.

    I do want to share my Golden Realization Moment, however, about myself.

    After I yelled at him in a slew of emails and he then accused me of being ‘abusive’, I wanted to ‘make it up to him’ by sending him a little necklace of mine so he could keep it and remember me.

    I was determined to do this, then I went to sleep, woke the next morning and asked myself, ‘Are you FUCKING crazy?’

    This guy has LIED to me for 7 yrs and treated me like 3rd rate gutter trash, and I want to REWARD him with a GIFT? What kind of message is that saying? Basically, that his behaviour is OK.

    I did NOT send him anything, and instead blocked everything I could. And now with what I know about narcs, he would have used it against me, as a means of showing how ‘obsessed’ I was with him.

    It taught me a lesson–just ask yourself the next time you’re feeling nostalgic or tender towards the narc–why? Is it because you just want him to think you’re a kind person and come back running?

    NEVER reward bad behaviour.

    1. Jasmine says:

      Good for you Bibi! Glad you came to your senses. ❤

    2. Caroline says:

      Oh my! I forgot about this until I read your post. After NC, I thought about sending “my” narcissist a silver heart ring I occasionally wear on my index finger, for the exact (warm-fuzzy) goodbye gift reason too (and decided it would just encourage him/was asking for MORE trouble)… we are just way too tender-hearted!

      No. That’s wrong. We are NOT “way too tender-hearted.” We just need to steer clear of narcissists – our tender hearts are lovely. 🙂

      You did awesome. Proud of you. XO.

      1. Caroline says:

        P.S. I could barely admit the heart ring thing on here…I was picturing HG sighing/laughing or mocking aloud how wholly self-defeating that ridiculous action would be. *_* There must be so many times when he’s thinking, “Really?! Why-oh-why do I even bother with you empaths?”

      2. Bibi says:


        I think it is quite common among our kind. This is why it is always good to SLEEP on something, and then reconsider.

        The important thing is we came to our senses. Any kind of gift is a reward. And when we continually take them back after prolonged mistreatment, it does give the message that it is OK for them to do that.

        We always say that actions count more than words but we too have to stand by what we say by our actions.

        And love ourselves and really believe we are worthy of better treatment because therein lies the problem.

        As bad as the narc was to me, I let him do it. Part of my healing was learning WHY I allowed it and why didn’t I really believe I deserved better?

      3. K says:

        I loved your P. S. comment. HG knows we are emotional thinkers and he might think you were weak only if you sent the silver heart ring after being here for a while. It takes a while to get your ET under control.

        1. Caroline says:

          Thanks, K…at least I didn’t send it. Plus, I like my pretty little heart ring. 😉

          I can’t believe I even *thought* about it though… and a heart ring?? That’s not stupid (lol). Just think of all the “hidden messages” he could have gotten from that:
          -She’ll always loves me – I knew it!
          -Hey, an open invitation to go get her (he’s already joked about “grabbing” me unexpectedly sometime…which doesn’t amuse me).
          -Oh yeah…that ring reminds me she denied me and trounced my heart again – I’m going to have to punish her real good for that.

          Thank God you can’t mail things in the middle of the night.

      4. sarabella says:

        The thing about the rewards…. my version was to fix his website. But I have a quesion about why we do this. Is the core of it that we are sill acting out needing to prove our love?

        When the narc and I were fully in our ‘dance’ he told me once that he expects women (girls) to bring their A-Game to dating and to interacting with him. That he doesn’t do all these nice guy things anymore (you know, walking to a door, flowers, that sort of stuff).

        Only WELL after it all, after he conned me for money and then as I tried to back out, he laid on the “i never trust women guilt trip” did I put it all together and see that that little speach about an A-game of his was a plant! He had subliminally planted in my head to prove myself to him, to reward him. And even planted for me to be jealous of women when I wasn’t even at the time.

        All of these things are all playing our our sense of wanting to show them we care.. see how much we care and if you just drop your awful behaviors, we can all be happy. And I think of myself and how children try to please and seek validation.

        I think if we heal this part of ourselves, we will never consider ‘rewarding’ (trying to earn favor) from a narc again that way.

        Is that ringing any bells for anyone?

        1. Caroline says:

          Hey, Sarabella….I enjoyed reading your insights.

          For me, it’s about guilt. I do care about him, and I still have guilt issues for leaving him. Of course, I left him (after 3 years) because it was an increasingly unhealthy (SUPER controlling) relationship for me (and whoa, that is because he was a narcissist)… but I am predisposed to wanting to make him feel comforted/loved…which I simply CAN’T do now…I am NC… but it’s mainly about the guilt, for me… with the heart ring.


          That’s his voice (exact words) now in my head… not mine. So I am working on my logic (thank God to my Norwegian ancestors that I have tons of it) to get through this. It’s not fun. I know some on this site really want their narcissist to pursue them like this… but it’s awful, truly.

          We began our original relationship with him pursuing me, hard (and I was a “V” before him, so it’s even more emotional for me) — and it’s the same pursuit again today. He’s 15 years older than me… so at some point, I guess he will tire of this.

          Or not.

        2. E B says:

          Hi Sarabella,

          “Is the core of it that we are still acting out needing to prove our love?…”

          Yes, I think so. Narcissists and their targets grew up with at least one dysfunctional parent, sibling or caregiver. That means, they do not know they are intrinsically worthy of love and respect.
          They wrongly believe they have to *do* things including achievements or doing things for others, to prove that they are worthy of love and acceptance. If not, they are unworthy and rejected. But no matter what they do, they are never good enough in a narcissistic family.
          As adults, they unconsciously emulate this dysfunctional relationship with other people. Acons who developed a Cluster B disorder will take the parent’s role (authority figure) to feel in control. To do so, they need Acons who are unconsciously willing to play the subordinate role. The latter will unconsciously try to prove their worth through their *actions* (doing things for the narcissist).

          “…he told me once that he expects women (girls) to bring their A-Game to dating and to interacting with him. ”

          He must have told you that early enough for you to get out. He ‘expects’ shows feelings of superiority. He thinks he is above his girlfriends, he is the Authority, the Controller. His girlfriends are supposed to be inferior to him and should succumb to his wants, needs and demands. He is the one to be pleased.

          Women who are aware that they are intrinsically worthy of love and respect, regardless of what they *do* and that they do not have to prove anything to anyone, would not accept this kind of non-relationship without reciprocity with someone like your ex who *believes* he is superior to others.

          Learning about dysfunctional families dynamics will help you understand why you accepted this role.

      5. sarabella says:

        E B,

        He told that to me about their needing to bring their A-Game when we were in what seemed to have been a ‘harmless’ flirting/friending stage. Later, he played off of that (or I had stored it away for some reason) and off of my emotions as part of his great manipulation to get money from me. He went from that perspective of a female needing to prove herself to this rage that I had let him down when I tried to back out of lending it. But once he had laid the ground work for what he expected, the a-game, even though it wasn’t directed at me, it was there and had been put out there, in my subconscious and without understanding how it happened, I slowly started to try to prove myself to him. He had also mixed it all up with how he used to court girls and bring flowers and stuff but when he was young, the parents of said girls told them to get rid of him as he was bad news. He was so bitter. But those wiser parents knew he wasn’t genuine.

        So, I felt sorry for him… cause I of course, had loved him and I would never have gotten rid of him. But when I tried to get out of lending the money, the guilt trip directed at me was massive as well as an underlying threat that he would abandon me if I let him down, because of course, everyone has let him down, especially women. I was going to prove to be different, cause I am special. (wow) I wonder how much he consciously did this or if he just did this stort of stuff knowing it works or it just works?

        We weren’t ever ‘together’ in the sense one would think of that but we were intimate and I was a hoover after decades so there was alot of hope on my part that he might be different now. Like now, he was going to prove himself to ME this time because afterall, he was the one who hurt ME once before, not the other way around. Plus, he said he wanted my forgiveness so of course I expected good behavior. Right? Why jeopardize losing me again as he seemed to say I was valuable now. I didn’t see but felt all the ways he was reversing that I was being maneuvered to chase him and did. This was the source of so much incredible pain that in the end, I was STILL having to prove myself to him when if you knew the story, it was ALWAYS the other way around that he owed me the effort to work for and gain my trust and it was HIM who had already failed me. I deserved admiration for his never having given it to me and of course, he said he was different now.

        I guess its telling that in one of the near last conversations we ever had, he told me that he expected nothing but care from me. He said that to me after telling me I was hurting myself by holding on to him and that I should let him go. And I said why, I am hurting myself because I care for you? (And how about we talk about how he had hurt ME again and knew he had?) And that’s when he said, that he would expect me to care, he expected nothing but that I would. Wow, I told him, reread what you wrote because guess what, I expect that from you, too. And rage was the result….

        The one thing which came out of all of this is I asked myself why, why, why…. And it was the first time that so many memories of my mother came back of horrible things she did that as I look back, were profoundly neglectful and abusive. So many things began to slowly make sense then. Its funny how she always got us to believe that my father was the bad guy, the one who was inconsistent, absent. Wow. What a number she did on my head because when I look back, she was barely there in so many ways. My dad is no saint, but I think she was the cause of far more harm to me. I get shocked still sometimes when the reality of things she did seeps through and how she convinced me that these were normal things.

        So yeah, the most dysfunctional was my mother. And yes, I was always wondering why nothing I ever did generated love or warmth or interest from her. Made me ripe for the narc’s half-assed efforts at a relationship and I was easy to future-fake then, especially, since he was from my past. I so desperately wanted to believe that he had cared all that time decades ago, and he had grown up and changed and learned to love me. Could love me. I wish he had just been a nobody that I tangled with, it would be easier without remembering myself as a young girl, totally fallen in love with him. So all that time, I thought he was my long lost lover, the one I had waited for, someone from my childhood who had loved me after all…. It hurt like a mother-effer for 3 years after he did what he did a second time. I only now can face he had lied, but wow, so cruel a con.

        The realization of needing to please and never feel enough has helped me as I have become far less pleasing at work, indifferent to the dynamics of needing to be a good little employee and now, things are better in my life as I see that subconsciously I have been always been working for Kibbles.

        Thing is I want to know, and its still a tricky place for me to feel ok about, does he truly believe deep down he is superior? I know all of the behaviors and the games make it seem that way… but seriously? He knows he is a loser, he told me once, yet then all the other behaviors are so extreme. Does some part of him know he is a great lie? It doesn’t change how awful he is to women, or that he has hurt many and will continue to, and it is hopeless, but I still wonder at time, how does one say such awfully superior and arrogant things and not hear how full of it you are?

        At least HG has professional success in his life, money, and a life that I am sure reflects his ideas of himself, but this guy doesn’t. He has none of that other than he was once a very handsome guy. My heart still melts if I were to look at pictures of his smile and dimples but his adult life is nothing but rather large failures. Wife kicked him out, he didn’t help much to raise his sons cause he was absent, lives with his sister, dirt poor, has some recent minor work success that he makes seem much bigger than I think they are but it astounds me that his superior attitude just doesn’t match what he has created with his life. It like he knows he is a lie, but doesn’t. That’s what made it so hard, too, to see the truth of his life as I was so distracted by the show, I never saw what was really going on and what it all meant.

        1. E B says:


          I would not believe a word that comes out of his mouth. But I understand you were young at that time.

          “…I was going to prove to be different, cause I am special. (wow) I wonder how much he consciously did this or if he just did this stort of stuff knowing it works or it just works?… ”

          I am sure he did it deliberately. He knew you would feel pity for him. Past experience tells narcissists what will probably work on a specific target and what will not. With time, they do it without thinking. Narcissists look for weaknesses to exploit. If you were young and in love with him, he must have noticed it. Although you sensed that something was wrong, he succeeded in getting money from you by making you feel ‘special’ (manipulation) and knowing you were not going to disappoint him. He was interested in your residual benefits. Targets are objects to be used, put aside when not needed and also recycled.

          “… I was a hoover after decades so there was alot of hope on my part that he might be different now. Like now, he was going to prove himself to ME this time because afterall, he was the one who hurt ME once before… he said he wanted my forgiveness … he seemed to say I was valuable now. ”

          He considers you to be valuable now because he seems to need some of your *benefits* again. A true friend would have never taken advantage of you, ignored you for decades, come back to you pretending he has changed and to make you believe *you are valuable now* (but not in the past decades!). You can ignore all his hoovers from now on. Do not let anyone recycle you.

          “… I was always wondering why nothing I ever did generated love or warmth or interest from her. Made me ripe for the narc’s half-assed efforts … I so desperately wanted to believe that he had cared all that time decades ago, and he had grown up and changed and learned to love me. Could love me. So all that time, I thought he was my long lost lover, the one I had waited for, someone from my childhood who had loved me after all ”

          It is painful to know the truth. You could not have known about it before. Good that you have found out where this wound that makes you susceptible to narcissists comes from. You improved your self-esteem at work too.
          Acons who do not want to know about their narcissistic upbringing end up in all sorts of narcissistic relationships. Even when they leave their partner, they cannot see how many destructive narcissistic relationships (family members, friends, co-workers) they still have in their lives.

          “…does he truly believe deep down he is superior? I know all of the behaviors and the games make it seem that way… but seriously? He knows he is a loser, he told me once, yet then all the other behaviors are so extreme. ”

          I meant that he felt superior in the context of your relationship. I do not know how superior or inferior he feels compared to other people in other areas. It depends on what narcissists were taught when they grew up, what the narcissistic parent(s) considered to be above or below them. They may feel superior to some people and at the same time inferior to others. They usually choose partners and friends that they consider to be inferior (socially, professionally, financially, how they look). They do not want people to outshine them.

          Sometimes they make self-deprecating comments (I am a loser). It is not about wanting to be seen as weak. He probably wanted you to feel sorry for him to his advantage. He knew you would help him when in need.
          They also use false modesty to appear normal.

          “… lives with his sister, dirt poor, has some recent minor work success that he makes seem much bigger than I think they are but it astounds me that his superior attitude just doesn’t match what he has created with his life. It like he knows he is a lie, but doesn’t”
          “…Does some part of him know he is a great lie?… how does one say such awfully superior and arrogant things and not hear how full of it you are? ”

          Acting arrogant and denigrating others seems to give narcissistic people a temporary relief.
          Do you know where he is in the Fuel Matrix? He uses pity like a MRN but he seems to have many traits of a Lesser. Maybe a MLN or a LMRN?
          I would consult with HG about it.

        2. K says:


          When he told you he was a loser that was most likely a pity play to manipulate you. The article below is very helpful in understanding how the narcissist thinks of himself. My narcissists were delusional. They could not see how bombastic, arrogant or unattractive they really were.


      6. sarabella says:

        E B !!! and K!

        I am SORRY it took me so long to reply. I haven’t had a minute and really appreciate you taking the time to break down what I had written. And K, I re-read the link as I had read it before, but find as understanding grows in this disorder, everything gets clearer and clearer with time.

        I think that it was both. He was using EVERYING to manipulate me. And he only had ONE way in to manipulate me and that was the alleged reason for hurting me as a child. That was the only weakness he had. And then also seeing I am a good person, now. He combined them both and everything was intentional even if unconscious on his part. The hard part was the story was so incredible, its hard to imagine why he even wasted time on me. I must have had something really big he wanted or something really deep he wanted to destroy.

        Yeah no more recycling from him ever again. He is a horribly evil person and he knows that is what I think of him. I am and would be much too much effort for a hoover ever again. Golden Period worked only for a while and that was because I believed (I guess wanted to believe) what he had told me about what had happened. But now that I know it was all 100% lies, he knows I would never fall for any of his BS again.

        It has been a really hard path to review my entire childhood in light of seeing that my mother wasn’t just selfish and self-centered, but she was in fact disordered. Other than residual ‘guilt’ that she is my mother, I don’t want her near my life ever again. Its a shame my daughter will never know her grandmother but I will never, ever risk the smear campaigns and covert games which she might use to turn my daughter against me. I saw her do it with my sister and brother though I was confused at the time for her motives.

        I think you are right about how he felt superior to me but then again, not to others. Although, I am not entirely sure he felt 100% superior to me based on some things he said. But as was pointed out in the article K linked to, I think he operates mostly on superiority but that bleed through of reality against his delusion is where I saw he knows he is not and is in fact a loser. But the delusion has a much greater hold and really, is the only thing to have paid attention to, not to the brief moments when his delusion failed him and the rage and self-loathing came through.

        I can’t tell where he is in the matrix in part because he also has a racial/cultural issue at play. He isn’t American though I accussed him once of pretending to be one by his use of slang and hip language (funny, wonder why he erupted in rage at that one?). And the culture he is from is pretty freaking messed up. Macho, women treated like shit, no rights, and more. So sometimes, his behaviors were typical of the people there. Someone once called it cultural narcissism. So when the cultural parts flair up, he is full on Lesser. However, he KNOWS what he does. He once said, I know it bothers you when I am online, doing the Blah-Blah-Blah I love you thing women. He knows he uses what he used to call ‘lyrics’ to seduce and con women. But in his mind, this is all macho cultural behaviors that are ok. He knows he does alot of things and intentional. So I am really not sure where he is on the Matrix. Other than I called him a socopath, a psychopath, not sure he ever understood what that meant; he thinks nothing is wrong with him, so he says.

        No more recylcing of him, not of him recycling me, but nor of me of him. No more, no more. Whatever dream he used in me against me, activating old hurt and pain aroudn rejection by him once before, it will stay a dream because the reality is all that mattered. And as you said, NO ONE who was truly my friend would EVER have done a fraction of what he did.

        Thanks for your clear no BS response, E B.

        1. K says:


          Don’t apologize; you didn’t do anything wrong. This is a low stress blog and we can’t always RSVP, sometimes I forget about comments that I make on certain threads and never check back.

          You are correct; the understanding grows and gets clearer over time. It is funny because I have been here for almost a year and, when I reread the articles, I am always surprised at how much I missed/forgot, and it is the repetition that really helps it all sink in.

          If I had to guess why he wasted time on you: he was probably trying to extract fuel, traits or residual benefits. Cultural issues aside, I think he belongs in the midrange category, he may be an LMRN. Some of my LMRNs are very arrogant and macho. His self-defense mechanism won’t allow him to see that there is anything wrong with him. Denial is his first line of defense.

          Don’t feel any guilt about your mother or for not wanting her in your life; she smeared and manipulated your siblings, but now you know what motivates her, so focus on keeping you and your daughter safe.

          No more recycling that nightmare. GOSO and go N/C; it is the best solution.

        2. E. B. says:

          Hi Sarabella,

          Thank you for your long reply. I agree with K’s comment.
          It is good to know that you decided to protect your daughter from your mother.

          Your ex is not superior to you at all. This is more about how he *perceives* reality and himself. For example, if you say he grew up in a macho environment, he is probably convinced that men are superior to women. Yes, these men will ‘chat up’ or ‘smooth talk’ a woman (by using sweet words and praise) to seduce her. This is calculated and part of their game. After having ensnared their victim, they will use verbal or even physical aggression whenever they feel hurt in their pride or when they want to control others.
          Your ex may *feel* or *believe* to be better than you in some areas (men are better at such-and-such than women) but not in others.
          As long as they have enough fuel, they like to boast about themselves to feel good and superior. But during a fuel crisis they become aware of their weaknesses and failures and feel worthless.
          I like this proverb: “Tell me what you brag about and I’ll tell you what you lack.”

          I am sorry that he has opened old wounds. You may have told him things at the beginning that he used against you. All narcissists do that. It has nothing to do with you.

    3. E. B. says:

      Good advice, Bibi. We tend to second-guess ourselves. We cannot believe some people can be so manipulative and abusive for no reason.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Indeed and what you need to understand is that the manipulate and abuse for many reasons – you do not have to accept or like those reasons but once you realise it is done for those reasons, your increased understanding reduces your confusion and anxiety and also enables you to then tackle the issues in a far more effective manner.

        1. E. B. says:

          Thank you very much, HG.

    4. NarcAngel says:


      And as a bonus, he wasnt able to give your necklace to another woman (‘cause thats likely what he would have done).

      1. Bibi says:

        Narc Angel:

        Maybe, if he were straight. He was gay.

      2. Bibi says:

        BTW I am Narc Letter #48. He lied to me about pretty much everything, including his name. So fucking weird. I’d never encountered someone like this before.

  27. BraveHeart says:

    My reaction was – two can play at this game! I gave the ST right back. As difficult and as painful as it was, not to have any closure, I never looked back! Still disengaged from nearly two years later and I’m perfectly fine with it. Still think of him often, but have moved on with my life. Still single and I love it that way now. 💘

    1. Bekah B says:

      You go, BraveHeart!

    2. M. says:

      Caroline, yes, many of us hide the best stories, you can never be sure with them 😎 Sometimes he tried to look at my cell phone, although I never left it unattended. The last time we met, as “friends”(ha ha), he leaned over me so as to look at my phone and he saw my google searches- narcsite.com was first in the list. It was done in a second but…who knows 😨

      1. Caroline says:

        Holy Nosy Narcissist, Batman! That bites. He probably won’t connect all the dots needed to track you, but still – not a good feeling. 🙁 Sneaky, aren’t they? Yes, it pays to be “better safe than sorry,” M. I totally agree with ya.

    3. Sophia says:

      Brave Heart,

      I’m beginning to think closure is overrated…and just bullshit. 😂

      Cheers to being single.🍻

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Closure is a misleading event generated by emotional thinking – if you believe you will get it from us. You create your own and it is called no contact and maintaining it.

        1. Twilight says:

          Damn straight
          Coming my here to the blog, thou makes it easier to make that closure happen

  28. Caroline says:

    I escaped. I wanted to explain why I went NC.

    But how do you say: “See, you’re a narcissist, which I think you may know, but I’m not sure, because you’re either an UMR or a Greater… so anyway, I’m now trouncing your heart into the ground, just like you said I always have, by fleeing again (wow, guess you called that one)… and I’m so sorry I am, but I have no real choice, because of that nasty narcissism thing… we have that 3-year relationship history (“once bit, always prone”), so I tried really hard on the friendship thing with you this last time, which you said you were fine with, but we both know that was a big, fat lie because you quickly started talking and acting like you own me and I’m your girlfriend now, and future wife… you’ve pretty much freaked me out with how aggressive you’re being, while you still work your charms on me, so yeah, I have to go permanent splitsville… but, again, I’m so sorry, because it hurts me to do this, as an empath…I really don’t even blame you — you’re just wired this way, and I’m so sorry for you about that, and it hurts my heart to think why that may be…but I can’t submit my life to this, and you know how to pressure and guilt me really well… but don’t worry — you’ll be fine and tap more into a number of other fuel sources…you’re handsome, smart, sexy, witty, talented and charming (missing that caring thing, but you’re a good faker), so we both know you can easily pick from a bevy, other than ME for your IPPS…though it makes me feel guilty to wish for that, because anyone now is likely in for a pretty rough go of it…I keep thinking about how you told me if we’d just gotten married like you wanted when I was dating you, none of this would have happened (thanks for the guilt trip on my way out)…did I mention how truly sorry I am?”

    Yeah… so I said nothing.

    1. Bekah B says:

      Haha.. I love this, Caroline! So matter of fact.. 😉

    2. M. says:

      You just wrote a letter to the Narcissist, Caroline 😉

      1. Caroline says:

        Hi, M! 🙂 Nah, that was more like random rambling… that would be a pretty sucky letter. I have a much better story on what went on between us when I dated him for three years… but I don’t want to tell it on the blog because I’m afraid he’s a Greater and could check out this site. I’m trying to lay low to the ground for now.

        1. Jasmine says:

          I’m with you Caroline. I’m *supposed* to keep quiet until after the trial.. but it’s difficult to keep my big mouth shut 😉

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Let it flap on here instead Jasmine!

          2. Jasmine says:

            LOL. Well you DO make it easy

  29. K says:

    After he disengaged, I reminded him when he visited that he chose an 18-old-boy over his daughter; he didn’t like it so he skulked off like the midranger he was. I also kept telling him over and over and over again to get his boyfriend a cup of coffee. I was like a broken-monotone-record that whole summer. He whined about how badly I was treating him. And of course, I told everyone he abandoned his family to fuck a child.

    1. Bekah B says:

      My goodness, that sounds so terrible, K.. But way to go, in your wounding.. Yes, mid-rangers will flounce off once subject to that kind of reminder..

      1. K says:

        Bekah B

        Those midrangers certainly do flounce off. But thats ok, I took nuggets of truth, exaggerated them (he isn’t hebephile nor a pedophile) and smeared him. Of course, I called him a pedophile and a diddler. I am currently reading Smeared:Knowing and Beating the Narcissist’s Campaign. I checked off smearing as one of my narc traits.

        1. Caroline says:

          Don’t mess with K! LOL! (We’re all relieved you like us). 🙂

          1. K says:

            Ha ha ha….thank you for the laugh, Caroline! I just don’t get along very well with my narcissists no matter how hard I tried. But I really like everyone here, so no worries.

      2. Sarabella says:

        I called “mine” a pedoohile, too. 55 and seducing little 16 year olds? Sick mother fucker. He didn’t know I called him one though as it was an anonymous swipe I knew he would think came from someone else he was fighting with at the time. Massive wounding.

    2. Sophia says:


      Not only did he leave his family he failed to mention his true sexual preference.

      I have to wonder if it is doubly wounding to be held accountable for the affair AND the fact it wasn’t another woman. A BOY.

      Just wow. I’m so sorry you and your daughter went through that.

      1. K says:

        Thank you, Sophia
        Since coming here, I have learned that sexuality can be fluid, especially with somatic narcissists and that was certainly the case with my MMRN.

        It felt like a double betrayal because I raised the child since the age of 5 (his parents were addicts and the child slept in his own home but he spent the bulk of his time at my home) and he was like a son to me and a sibling to my other children. Had my MMRN left me for another boy, girl, man or woman I do not think it would have affected me as much. It was awkward to see their relationship unfold and it felt “incestuous”.

        My daughter still cries about it occasionally and that breaks my heart and then I get really, really mad and think diabolical thoughts.

        1. blackunicorn123 says:

          Gosh K, I didn’t realise that detail. I’m so sorry, I can’t imagine the pain for you and your daughter. X

          1. K says:

            Thank you, blackunicorn123!
            That craziness is what brought me here. I could NOT wrap my head around their relationship but I found all the answers here and we are doing much better. My daughter is still upset but I am helping her and she is learning all about NPD, too.

            I was just on A GLIMPSE OF THE FUTURE and read your comment about River by Eminem/Sheeran and I couldn’t agree more; narcissism is everywhere.

    3. Yolo says:


      I am sorry you had to go through this. It’s hard to imagine all the b.s. they put us through and then find out they are pedophiles. I would have told everyone too. In addition, I would’ve tried to find information to have him arrested. I bet he was with that child before he turned 18.

      How embarrassing for your daughter. They truly are the scum of the f#$%ing earth.

      Peace & Healing

      1. K says:

        Thank you, Yolo!
        That rat B#%$@&# mother f #&*^%$@#!ing jerk started to triangulate with him when he was 17 AND still in high school AND I was pregnant with our daughter. They really are scum of the earth. He groomed him just like a pedophile would.

        Peace and healing right back to ya!

        1. Jasmine says:

          Wow. Just wow K. *hugs

          1. K says:

            Thank you, Jasmine! You are so sweet and hugs back.

    4. Somewhere over the rainbow says:


      I’m sorry you and your daughter had to go through all that…

      You’re a strong woman and I really admire you!

      Best wishes to you and your daughter!

      1. K says:

        Awwww….thank you so much, Somewhere over the rainbow. Your kind comments made me get all teary-eyed.

  30. Awakened says:

    Immediately went NC after sending an email telling him i knew what he was, (thanks to google searches) and to tell him to not contact me again, that we would go through attorneys from this point on (we were married and had been together for 6 years-all of which he covertly manipulated me as well as planted the seed and coercing me to commit suicide). I never knew I was being abused. (although now i see it clearly) I signed that email “-another one of your victims” (although i had never knew any of his previous victims-he was much too good at this game for me to have been his first).

    I never heard from him again. Ever. Saw him at mediation after 3 months had passed and he was on stage one last time crying (oh my god what an actor!) to the mediator that he wanted to preserve the marriage! (Im certain now, that was to make sure HE did the discarding and not me).

    I didn’t fall for it and signed the divorce papers (that HE had drawn up) and haven’t heard a thing from him since. Saw him at a home improvement store in our town a few months after that and he turned directions to avoid me. Ive been about 2 1/2 years NC with no hoovers.

    I have dodged a massive bullet and very thankful I have

  31. Bekah B says:

    Immediately after the FIRST disengagement (which was very horrendous), I texted and emailed my narcissist, constantly pleading my case about what he had done and how he took absolutely no responsibility for it, but he did not respond to me.. So after a few days of being ignored, I exposed him to all of his females and told them about what he had done to me.. This prompted him to immediately change his phone number in a matter of hours.. I didn’t hear from him until two weeks later.. He was able to secure one of those females again, convince her I was lying about what I said, and he demonstrated that very well to me when we had contact again.. He embedded her and plastered their relationship all over FB, crushing my soul.. So the next couple of months, on and off, I sought answers from him, trying to understand why he chose her.. He took those opportunities to exploit my raw emotions and manipulated me into giving him almost 1000 USD..

    All of this happened last year and that is when I stumbled upon the term “sociopath” and related it to what I had been through: “Idealization. Identity Erosion. Devaluation. Discarding.” And the rest is history.. Since finding this site, I found out my ex has traits of both narcissism and ASPD.. I accepted this and internally began to build my defenses and recognize when I was being manipulated.. And I’m fighting now to remain low contact..

    1. sarabella says:

      Happened to me, even though I had been discarded, he still managed to manipulate money out of me. In my case, it was a 5K “loan”. And I refused to listen to people who told me to let the money go, that the best think was to just go NC and kiss the money good-bye. Seriously bad caree blanche advice to give victims provided they can safely go after what has been taken from them.

      If I could not maim him, have him, get an explanation and apology nor have had real love vs what he had faked, he was never, ever going to keep that money and I went insane fighting for it back. Lucky for him, he was coming into some family money (although when I started to fight, he never said right away, that this was in the near future and to not worry, that would have been too easy) but only when he realized I was going to ruin him (and where is lives, making it public would have cause alot of reputation damage to him) did he tell me about the money he was about to inherit and after 9 months of making the loan, I got it back. It was hell. I have never, ever fought that bad against someone I cared for. It went against every fiber of my being to do what I did. I lost 20 pounds in the process, too.

      I would like to hear more about how you were manipulated if you care to share for the money specifically. I always wondered how he did it. I also wonder if money was his intent all along now. Or, if he just saw this as a possiblity as our dynamic and my victimization unfolded. I also concluded that he had made me so raw from things, had been threatening me in covert ways with abandonment, that it was fairly “easy” for someone like him to do. LIke he could do it in his sleep. 🙁

      HG, what do you think? Would you know that someone is ripe to steal money from and then plan and scheme something like that well in advance? Or, would you simple recognize supply, and then see what you get to take from them along the way and if money comes up as an option, great?

  32. jenny says:

    After 11 years on the merry go round I escaped and went no contact { well almost { I have heard he is still looking for me after 8 months even though he has gone back to his ex wife Haha } I left the area completely because he was extremely violent on occasion and I feared him. I think he was a greater and very clever in his manipulation. I did want to go back to him soooo much to start with but with therapy and reading everything you have written I am beginning to understand, wish i had found your articles years ago, it has helped me tremendously in KEEPING no contact! And must thank you so much HG. You are my dirty little secret. Lol

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are most welcome, you are seizing the power, keep reading.

      1. HG, who doesn’t want you?

        In all honesty after realizing what i was entangled with, I went no contact, until the somatic lesser triangulated me with a new victim, who contacted me via phone call.

    2. Bibi says:

      Amen to that! HG is my DLS too! LOL

      1. HG Tudor says:

        So wonderful to be wanted!

      2. narc affair says:

        This place and HG are my dls and i need to catch up! Its been so busy lately but this blog is a keeper 🤗😍

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Damn right.

  33. Stacy says:

    I had been married to a covert Narc for nine years, divorced and single for three years when I started to date the last Narc I got involved with nearly a year and a half ago. I had only found out about the Narcissism of my ex recently and was suffering some anxiety and c-PTSD. Fortunately, when the man I was dating began to triangulate me with another woman, I realized the devaluation process had begun and that he was a Narcissist! I went No Contact several weeks later but only after giving him a chance to be “friends” which he used as an opportunity to continue to devalue me. That was enough. He’s blocked on all media and has only attempted one Hoover. I rarely think of him now. Whew!

    1. Bekah B says:

      Good Going, Stacy! I’m glad you saw the signs and realized what he was doing.. GOSO! ☺

  34. Jasmine says:

    When he was arrested I wanted to run far far away. That wasn’t possible, so I hid behind many locked doors in a gated condo. I stayed for a week, trying to sort my head. I only left to file an order of protection. His family called me repeatedly, and while i didn’t want to hurt him, i knew i couldn’t have anything to do with him anymore. I was scared to death of him, and hurting terribly.. physically and emotionally

    1. numb says:

      You did the right thing Jasmine. Mine will likely, god willing, spend the rest of his life in prison and I still feel the need to run and hide.

      1. Jasmine says:

        Thank you numb. 🌼

  35. SuperXena says:

    After escaping: rigorous, strict no contact = finally locking the door ( locking him out) AND keeping the key regaining my power back.

  36. Donna says:

    analyze, analyze, analyze…somehow believing if you can figure out why it happened, it can be worked out…thank you so much H. G. for helping me see that the concept of “love” means “possessing an appliance” to a narcissist. So mechanical and cold. Maybe that’s why Hollywood teaches little girls to be princesses believing love heals the beast…Sadly, I still wish it was true…It’s hard to let go of the false concept, but even more painful to hang on…I’m sticking with “The Three Little Pigs..” version of life for now.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  37. Flickatina says:

    You are missing an option….

    Severely maim the Narcissist……..

    1. K says:

      Ha ha ha…I know that feeling.

    2. levicertelli says:

      After the 5th disengagement and following HG’s advice I have managed to go and stick to No Contact.
      Thank you HG. Really.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Well done and you are welcome.

      2. H. says:

        I too have opted for this strategy.

        I just experienced a horrible and savage episode of his Narcissist fury.

        I had already tried multiple attempts at No Contact.

        Because I did this to myself again, I knew I had to take serious steps.

        I promised myself if I broke the last No Contact, I would get help.

        I did, and am looking forward to working with HG.

      3. narc affair says:

        Wtg levi!!!

    3. narc affair says:


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