Save The Children



If there is one thing which will often scupper an attempt to escape our clutches, it is the existence of children. On the one hand the existence of children created by you and our kind often results in you continuing to endure the relationship for the sake of the children rather than separate. On the other hand, even if you do decide that it is better to separate than stay with our kind, you are rarely able to truly escape because of the shared connection that exists because of the children. Even though you wish to escape the roller coaster existence of being with our kind, as an empathic person you behave fairly and recognise that the children should see their other parent and thus you either make provision or allow for contact to continue between our kind and the children which in turn means that there must inevitably remain contact between you and us. You may however take the draconian step of deciding that it is in the best interests of the children to have no contact with the narcissistic (although usually you only realise the other parent is abusive rather than narcissistic at this juncture) parent and cut all contact off. This then results in our kind turning to formal means through the courts to establish contact with the child or children again.

Your concerns in respect of the involvement of our kind in the raising of children cover numerous factors.

  1. You are concerned that our behaviour will affect the children so that they in turn become narcissists;
  2. You are worried that our behaviour leads to the children witnessing abusive behaviour towards you which will upset the children;
  3. You are concerned that our behaviour will lead to the children not receiving a stable and nurturing upbringing;
  4. You are worried that the children will be used as pawns between you and us and adversely influence so they are turned against you;
  5. You are concerned by our failing to provide emotional and financial support which will in turn impact on the children; and
  6. You are worried that our behaviours will effectively spoil what should be happy moments in childhood.

These, along with others, are legitimate concerns. It becomes especially difficult for you when you find that you face a battle between doing what is right for a child even though this may clash with what they want. They want to spend time with us but you see such time as toxic and having an influence on the child (who as a child cannot see or comprehend what is happening) which is at best unhelpful and at worst downright damaging. How do you deal with a situation where you need to do what is right and best for a child, even though they will not see this at the time? First of all, what must you understand about our attitude towards children and parenting?

  1. Children are regarded as appliances by us. There is no distinction made for the fact that they are children nor that we are their parent. We see children as appliances and devices which are extension of ourselves and therefore there to do our bidding. You should never be under any illusion that a narcissistic parent loves the child. Do not be fooled into thinking that any benign act exhibited by our kind is a manifestation of love towards a child. It is not;
  2. This pervading mind set means that children will be used in order to gather fuel. This will be done directly by obtaining fuel from them. Initially this will manifest as wanting to spoil them when we have time with them so that their positive responses to this will provide us with positive fuel. We will upset, anger and frustrate children in addition to draw negative fuel as and when it is deemed appropriate. This is not done because the positive fuel has become stale (as is the case when devaluation occurs in the context of an intimate partner primary source) but is an adjunct of wanting to achieve some other aim. The two most popular aims are control and triangulation. We will provoke a negative fuel response from children in order to exert control over them, for instance, taking a toy away or forbidding them to do something that they enjoy such as watching a certain television programme or being allowed some sweets. This reinforces our control. A child is no different from any other appliance and must be subjected to our control. This control is not exerted for the benefit of the child, for instance, stopping the child from eating sweets every day because it is unhealthy, but is only done so we can establish control. In terms of triangulation, the negative emotional response will be achieved for the purposes of triangulating you. For instance, we may suggest to the child that mummy does not love the child so it becomes upset. We only care about the reaction, not the well-being of the child. We may say that the child cannot do something on your instruction, in order to both upset the child and thus gain negative fuel and at the same time smear you through this triangulation. Thus, when negative fuel is sought from a child it arises in conjunction with the desire to control and/or to triangulate.
  3. The traits and achievements of the child are up for grabs in the same way that we steal and acquire traits from adults in order to furnish our construct and make ourselves look even more appealing. Our sense of entitlement is such that the child has only won the race, come top of the class, swum that distance, secured a place on a vacation scheme as a consequence of our brilliance. We will remind you, the child and third parties that this is the case. Repeatedly.
  4. We will smear and brief against you at every available opportunity. Irrespective of the reasons why the relationship between you and us ended, we will not rise above the desire for smearing for the sake of the children. If there is an opportunity to take a pot shot at you, it will be taken. The needs of the children do not ever come before our needs. Thus if they are upset by what we say about you, we receive fuel and do not care how it affects them. If they begin to dislike you because we suggest you are too strict, we will not counter that but rather we will cultivate this position to our advantage.
  5. Just like you, children can cause criticism to us. Rather than soak it up as a mature, well-adjusted parent would, we will lash out when there is a perceived or actual criticism of us delivered by the words and/or actions of the child. This will as ever result in the ignition of fury and the manifestation of heated fury or cold fury. We will sulk with a child, turn away from them if they want support and/or shout at them. The fact they are a child is meaningless to us. The fact we as a parent owe obligations to them to behave in a mature and responsible fashion to them does not matter because our needs come first.
  6. We have no sense of responsibility or obligation to children. A lesser narcissist will see no need to maintain maintenance payments and will be content not to see work. A greater may well make such payments, not because he cares about the children but it is done to show to everybody else how generous he is and also to make you look bad if your financial contributions are not as substantial. The payment or otherwise of financial support will be used as a carrot and stick against you throughout the duration of childhood. We will only become involved in the lives of the children if we regard there as being some kind of benefit to us. Their emotional needs, education, safety etc. are irrelevant to us. We will attend a school performance not to show support to the child so they feel happy, but to show to other parents that we apparently love and support the child, so we gain fuel and infuriate you. We regard obligations as beneath us, we have no sense of accountability, our sense of entitlement means we can do as we please, our lack of guilt or conscience means there is no mechanism causing us to adopt an alternative stance.
  7. Understand that children are pawns which will ALWAYS be used to our advantage. Whether it is to bind you to us during the golden period, to make us look good to others, to draw fuel, to exert control, to triangulate, to perpetuate abuse and so forth, our interactions with our children are governed by our needs. In the same way that our interactions with you as intimate partner, or our involvement with an inner circle friend, or our dealing with a stranger are all governed by our needs first, the same is applicable to children.
  8. Attempting to curtail our involvement with the children is seen as a criticism to us, irrespective of how morally and factually correct your action may be. That is irrelevant to us. We will use the court system for our purposes. We do not wish to spend time with our children for their sake, but instead it is for our sake. We may find it boring having them but if we know the fact they stay with us one night a week upsets and angers you, we will do it in order to draw this fuel from you and therefore we will use the court system to fight. It is not a fight for the benefit of the children. It is a fight for the maintenance of our needs – fuel, control, triangulation etc.

With this mind set of ours now apparent in our interactions with you and the children, how do you deal with us?

  1. Minimise the interaction you have with us. Establish a system for messages to be sent by e-mail or text. If this is deviated from by a telephone call, do not take the call but allow voice mail to pick up the call and then you can establish how best to respond thereafter and you will not provide fuel by being tricked into answering a call. If possible, prevent any face to face contact between you and us concerning the children. We draw the most fuel from seeing your emotional reactions face to face. Remove this (where practical) and you are denying us fuel. For instance, utilise the assistance of other family members or friends for the handover of the children until such an age as when they can use transport or walk between venues safely.
  2. Ensure all communications are to the point, business-like and contain no emotion. This again denies us fuel. Establish a five-minute rule so that you never immediately respond to our communications (when you are more likely to do so in an emotional fashion as we try to provoke you). If five minutes is too short, extend the time.
  3. By denying us fuel we will (initially) try to provoke you in different ways concerning arrangements and interaction with the children. Weather that storm and because we must obtain fuel we will have to seek it elsewhere. You are not a viable source so we will eventually look to obtain fuel from you less and less. You will also eventually notice that this manifests by us losing interest in the children. Remember, we are not interested in the children per se but how they as appliances can serve us.
  4. You will face an ongoing battle between your influence and our influence. This is deliberate as it is used to provoke you into confronting us about what we say about you, what we say to the children and what we do with them. We want you to engage. You must resist the need to do so. Remember, you will not make us change. We will not listen to you. We want to control you and draw fuel from you. We use the children to achieve this. Accordingly, if the children comment that we are making disparaging comments about you: –
  5. Do not confront us about the issue, it is futile;
  6. Do not seek to influence the view of the child by saying “Dad is a bad person” this will trouble the child and the response will be conveyed to us which will secure Thought Fuel for us and also provide us with further ammunition to use against you for your comment. Instead, move on to discussing something else  and the child is likely to forget about the comment. If the child persists in wanting to discuss the matter, then explain that Dad does things differently to you and then move on. Provide reassurance and listen to the child but do not, however tempting it may be, do or say anything disparaging as this plays into our hands. Your role is to maintain a positive influence for your children as often as you are able. By doing this (and starving us of fuel so the interaction will lessen) your positive influence will progressively outweigh our negative influence. The more you expose your children to a positive influence and avoid walking into our traps and playing into our hands, you will tip the balance so that they will, through the effluxion of time and exposure to this positive influence flourish under it and make their own minds up.
  7. In a similar fashion to how you must deal with a smear campaign, do not tell the children what to think, but allow them to make up their own minds. This will be difficult at first and you will no doubt find yourself on the receiving end of hurtful and challenging behaviour. Keep in mind that this is our influence (not what the child really thinks) and that as you weather the storm, the effects of your positive influence will eventually manifest. As the children become older you can present them with independent evidence of behaviour (not just hearsay and say so) so they can evaluate this for themselves and make their own minds-up. Like third parties, children do not want to be involved in a conflict between two people and they do not want to be told what to do. Cater for this and you will minimise disruption and increase your positive influence.
  8. Your approach is one of ensuring the “light side” overcomes the “dark side”. This can only be achieved by repeated reinforcement of positive behaviour and influence. If you engage in behaviours similar to ours, you enter onto our home turf and you will not only encourage us to keep going with our behaviours but you will find there is a negative outcome for both you and the children.
  9. If our behaviour is serious in terms of impact on the children – for instance violence or neglect – involve the relevant authorities. You will not be able to cause us to recognise we have done anything wrong because we either do not recognise that we have or we will not admit it for the purposes of maintaining control.
  10. If you regard it as appropriate, save messages and e-mails which exhibit our behaviour and allow the child access to them when an adult. This is again the presentation of independent evidence when they are in a position to make their own minds up. You must not engage in a popularity contest or sling mud; you will lose as this is playing into our hands.
  11. If you find yourself having to engage with us through the court system, ensure those representing you are familiar with our kind. Rely on independent evidence as much as possible rather than “he said, she said”. Recognise that we are experts at duping people and our lawyers, your lawyers, psychologists, court officials and judges can just as easily be duped. If a hearing does not go your way, resist the urge to lash out at us – it is of course just fuel – and instead continue to adopt a positive approach towards your children. That must always be your focus. We want you to engage with us and we will use children and the court system to provoke you to do this. Fail to engage and you take away much of our power.

It is hard. A narcissistic parent is a fact. We will not go away so long as we are getting what we want or believe we can do so. Prevent us from getting what we want, demonstrate to us that we are unlikely to get what we want and we will turn our attention elsewhere. This will then allow your positive influence to have an even greater bearing on the children and undo any harmful effects from our toxic influence. You will face challenges but by trying to address our behaviour, cater for it and pander to it, you will not succeed in protecting your children. I have seen this first hand.

24 thoughts on “Save The Children

  1. Bree says:

    I am just discovering your blog and it answered many questions about my ex that I just broke up with and we share a son together.

    I actually took inventory of all the things you described and wrote down an entire list of things that fit my situation. I currently went NC with him and severed all ties- including those to my son. He has not hoovered either of us, as I have threatened him with legal action if he does.

    I wondered how could he say loved my child but not shell out financially (other than lavish toys which I think were use to buy him off), share equal responsibility unless called out about numerous times, manipulate him, and try to anger me in front of him. I also couldn’t figure out how he seemed so loving toward him but not care for his safety. He would put him in the front seat of the car, did not care to buy a booster seat for him, or put him in the seat once it was bought by me.

    He also had a penchant for wanting to seem like a stellar father on social media without actually being one.

  2. McVey says:

    HG will a narc get tired of the child after the court battle? If so how can I facilitate that happening? I am loosing in court. He will win. I am starting to giving up.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I need to know the school of narcissist to explain accurately. You require assistance to understand what you are dealing with and how to address it. I can give you that assistance and have done so to many people. Organise an audio consultation with me and he won’t win.

      1. McV says:

        He is a covert high level narc. And he is a successful Trial attorney. My attorney has turned, Child Rep, even the child’s therapist. I will set up a consultation. Later today?? Or tomorrow??

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Noted. Yes, if you set one up promptly I will be in a position to speak to you during Monday.

  3. Natalie says:

    I just derailed a malign Hoover by my ex using the memory of our 2 deceased children as an “appeal to my.emotion”. He said he had “miraculously” located my photo albums of them that I know without a doubt were taken in a burglary by narc x #2. I can’t even begin to imagine what he was capable of, had I “invited the vampire” into my home…but with a bit of stalling and refusal to cooperate in giving him my new was quickly apparent that his intentions were not good in the least. Now I have 2 pissed off narc exes in cahoots…ugh If you ever question how low they are willing to go, trust me on this…it was the most heinous conversation I have ever experienced.

    1. Jasmine says:

      Natalie, I’m so sorry about your children. That’s so despicable he did that. What a pos *hugs

    2. Narc Angel says:


      That wasnt a conversation. Shit cant speak.
      Hes such a lowly piece of shit he couldnt even be used as fertilizer. Block him completely so you never communicate with him again or disclose your location.

  4. Sandra says:

    HG, can you tell me if there is a propensity for a child of a narc (especially a son) to turn into a narc as they grow up? Or, if I am the loving parent that they need as you describe above, will they grow out of mirroring their father’s behavior?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The genetic predisposition and environment will create a risk of your son becoming a narcissist however it is not guaranteed. Dependent on how much time is spent with you as opposed to his father, your influence has the potential to outweigh his and thus the environment has altered so that narcissism does not come to fruition.

      1. Somewhere over the rainbow says:

        So, you agree that there is a genetic predisposition…not all children living in similar environmental conditions develop narcissism. I can tell an empathic child from a narcissistic one when I see their behavior. When people “compliment” me on having a leader (stubborn, determined and demanding) and adapted to this world child I really feel like crying…I’ll do my best for a normal outcome (I’m not hoping for an empathic child, as it goes 100% against his nature and forcing him to become what he was not born to be could trigger only the worse) and, again, I need your help on that because I believe you had those same traits but not an empathic mother…

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I do.

  5. ava101 says:

    Hi HG,

    do you think it possible (or rather: which do you think more likeley) that I got it wrong about my mother that she is a slave to authorities (teachers, doctors, etc.), but that she rather used them to control me, as triangulation?

    Because when I think about it … I was always wrong and guilty, and over-sensitive of course, while my teachers, etc. were always right no matter what they did …. except for when they showed my mother her own responsibility.
    Then she liked to smear them, say always things … especially about my favourite teacher, who taught me so much, even about co-dependency.

  6. Nonto says:

    I know this won’t mean anything to you HG since you don’t have normal feelings and can’t empathize but I am crying as I’m reading this post. I really honestly feel for my children, I have four kids with this person and he uses money in playing his game involving my children. They are young and obviously you know how kids are, they are basically drawn to him because of the lifestyle he presents to them (the same lifestyle he was presenting to me that blinded me from the truth all these 16 years) and they think the world of him, they think he’s the coolest dad alive. I am so hurt and shuttered by this, I don’t want my kids to suffer the way I did because I know the pain firsthand. Does the narcissist at some point get what they deserve for the trauma and havoc they cause of destroying people’s lives?

    But honestly thank you HG for the light you are shedding to us

    1. HG Tudor says:

      My feelings are normal for me.

      Does the narcissist get what they deserve? Depends what you see as what they deserve? If you mean disapproval by peers, criminal consequences, a disjointed and haphazard existence – yes that happens to some.

      You are welcome.

  7. Jasmine says:

    I can’t read this. Sorry
    Just offering my 2c.

    Don’t be like me. Protect your children. Keep them away from narcs and the like. Divorcing is often not enough. If they are abusive with YOU.. they will be abusive with the children

  8. Sophie says:

    Spot on. In the middle of this now. It’s hard having to hear about how the narcissist trashed you to your child, told the child everything was your fault, that you were abusive towards him. And then, even harder, is having to stand by and say nothing when the narcissist decides to draw negative fuel from the child and makes them feel like everything was their fault. Document, document, document. What’s been very helpful, is my child has been studying psychology and the physical ‘tells’ of lying, and was able to suss out the narcissistic manipulations and lies. It’s still very rough for the child to go through.

  9. sarabella says:

    My mother always painted my father as the guilty one. To hide her promiscuous lying behaviors. Only I didn’t grasp how deep it went as a child. I only asked her how come she never fought for my brother in custody. Isn’t that what most mothers would do? Fight to care for their children and parent? I never understood the “Well, in retrospect I should have”… was because she didn’t WANT to. She had no more use for her family. I was the pawn, the sacrificial child she kept. Because I had hoped with no one else around, maybe, I would be loved as a child deserved. Never happened. And once she ‘got me’ she didn’t care for me but profoundly neglected me. Not in terms of not having food and shelter, but in every other way, she was a horrible mother. Only I never understood why she didn’t fight for her kids, why she suddenly seemed such a loving parent to some other man’s kids when that man abandoned his ex wife with 5 to raise. All of the points on a narcs relationship to the children was spot on with her. Just toys to them. To pick up and claim as needed.

  10. Dani says:

    it is possible that a narcissist decides to have a child from a woman, only because he has decided that for the moment he doesn’t want to be alone?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Please see ‘Impregnated’.

  11. A Wakened says:


    If we had only read this years earlier, we may have been able to save a child from the grips of your kind.

  12. Bc says:

    HG why would they rather play “daddy” to another’s child rather than take care of their own?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. To devalue you through triangulation.
      2. To draw fuel.
      3. To curry favour with the mother of the other child for the purposes of seducing them.

    2. sarabella says:

      Yeah, really f**ked up that a female narc would do this. Mothers, women, supposed to be all loving especially of their own. Right? Isn’t that what Hallmark tells us every year?! Well, narc mother’s hubsand passed on (no loss to me) and I wonder… are his children, the ones she chose to spend her energy on over me, her own daughter, are they active and caring for her? Are they still visiting? Calling? Cause I really bet the answer to that is a big fat NO. She fabricated this vision of some Brady Bunch family in her head although none of us grew up with the others as we were all teens by then. Far too savy and set to adopt each other as quasy siblings. And now, I wonder how it is for her, if they aren’t visiting? Are they slowly fading out? What that must feel like as she becomes forgotten over time, as I am sure will happen. Never so profoundly betray your own children!!!!

      I wish I could say this would be revenge for me, to know this will happen to narc mother. But its not. Its the most horrific and tragic thing that her own family was neglected for another man and his brood, especially when HE walked away from them, himself. Then they both pretended they were playing house, living in this false reality.

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