How To Make the Narcissist Return


To bastardise a phrase, “How does your emotional thinking affect thee, let me count the ways?”

“I still love her and I always will, I miss her so much.”

“I know what he is, but I don’t care, I just have to be with him, there is no point otherwise.”

“I cannot stand to be without him. The pain is too much, so I would rather have the ups and downs than nothing at all.”

“I understand her now, so I can control the situation better so I will not be hurt. I can make this work.”

“Since I understand him, I can explain to him that I do and he will realise and everything will work out for the best.”

“All I need to do is work on pleasing her and asserting my boundaries and we can get through this, love conquers all.”

“I am better than her and he will soon realise what he has lost and he will come back to me, we are soul mates and meant to be.”

“They say if you let someone go and they come back then it is meant to be. That is what I must do ; let him go and ensure he returns to me.”

“I know he has hurt me but I have done some bad things as well, so if we are honest with one another we will sort things out, I only want him and nobody else.”

“I know he is bad for me, but well, it is so boring without him. Nobody else compares to him.”

“I don’t care if he hurts me, I love him and I know he really loves me and that is all that matters in the end. Love hurts sometimes you know.”

All of the above are the product of the fraudulent effect of emotional thinking and a thousand thousand further phrases besides. I have heard so many and read even more. I have no doubt you can think of similar utterances and proclamations.

So, if the bond is so tight and the pain so awful that you cannot bear to be without the narcissist, why not make him or her come back to you after they disengaged from you. They wanted you once, they seduced you and goodness, how did they seduce you! Those magical, mesmerising days of golden, beautiful, flawless perfection. If only you can return to them. How might you go about achieving this? What steps can you take to ensure that the narcissist returns to you and not only returns but stays? After all, you know they are a narcissist now, you understand why he or she operates as they do, you recognise the manipulations and you are confident that you can handle the narcissist so that not only are you not hurt but so that you do not lose them. You have gained the power through knowledge haven’t you? Now, all you need to do is cast that magic spell to make us come back to you. What can you do to guarantee the return of the narcissist to your arms, to your home, to your bed?

  • Provide that positive fuel. Provide the narcissist with that reminder of the glorious and potent fuel that once drew us to you. Let it gush and fountain from you, with your praise, love and admiration for us. Do not hide it under a bushel, let it appear in vast quantities and often. Drown us in your positive fuel.
  • Make those traits of yours which we expressed admiration for shine and appear prominently so we see what rewards await us by coupling with you once more, so we can claim those traits once again. Make sure that your achievements are noticeable – that promotion, that recent big client win, the articles printed in the press, the new followers for your work and so on.
  • Ensure that the residual benefits are available once again. Have that house open to us whenever we choose, make it clear that money is available, let us know that we have a house keeper who will cook, clean and care for us, let it be known that yours is ours, that your contacts are accessible to us for our use, that we can plug into your networks once again and attend those prestige events. Whatever those residual benefits are, make it evident that they are ours for the taking.
  • Demonstrate penance for everything bad that you have ever done. Make it clear you were at fault and that we were not, recognise your shortcomings and apply the suitable mea culpa mea maxima culpa so we know your contrition is genuine.
  • Remove any obstacles. If you have a new partner, ditch him or her. Drop the restraining order. Obviously destroy the no contact regime. There should be no fence, wall or barrier to our glorious return.
  • If we have been bad mouthed in anyway, make sure this is overturned. Ensure that family, friends and colleagues speak well of us, correct any ‘misunderstandings’ they may have acquired about us and create a fertile ground for the growth of our new and improved façade.
  • Look and be your best to cater for the relevant cadre of narcissist, be it somatic, cerebral, victim or elite. Ascertain which we are and cater to that by adjusting your appearance, behaviour, outlook etc to align with what we want.
  • Demonstrate subservience once again and your willingness to submit to our authority. Be strong to the world at large, if that is the way you are, but ensure we know that you will roll over and want your tummy tickled by us on our return.

Those are the key grounds which cover the various matters which you need to attend to if you are looking to make us return to you after you have been disengaged from so that your pain and misery is swept away and you can embrace the wonderful new Golden Period Mk 2.

Will those steps detailed above guarantee our return?


You can never ever make us return.


This impossible outcome, much as you want and long for it, can never be guaranteed to happen for three reasons :-

  1. We are the controllers. We control, you are controlled. You do not tell us what to do, you do not make the decisions for us to obey, you do not bring about a situation because you want it, it happens if and because we want it. You may make the situation more appealing to us, granted, but even so there is never a guaranteed outcome. We must decide if we are to return. It is not even when we return, but if. It may never happen and if it happens it is only when we decide and on our terms. Not yours. You cannot compel us to these things. No matter how inviting you make it, no matter how much you place yourself on the sacrificial altar and declare that you will do anything and everything for us, it is not guaranteed to work because we must always have control and that means we must be the decision maker; and
  2. You do not know what else is occurring in our fuel matrix. No matter how well you tempt us with the creation of what you think is an inviting scenario, someone else in our fuel matrix may well be outshining you. If we have a new IPPS and we are in that golden period with them, there is NOTHING you can do to affect that. Our fuel needs may be met by a variety of appliances and therefore there is little need for you. You do not know the extent of our fuel matrix, how it is constituted, who is in it and what roles those people take. You do not know how much fuel is provided, how often and to what potency. You do not know how the character traits are supplied nor the residual benefits and because of this lack of knowledge, you can never have any guarantee that we will return to you.
  3. Our split thinking. If you are painted black, you are painted black and no matter what you do to try to shift that perception, you are not guaranteed to be able to do it. This means that you go can be superlative in your provision of fuel and all else but ultimately it will be scorned because your treachery (as seen by us) obscures and denigrates all that you do. You will remain black until we decide that you are white and whilst you might cause us to regard you as white because of something you do, you should note that

a. That still does not guarantee our return to you because of points 1 and 2 above ; and

b. Your turning white is usually as a consequence of someone else in our fuel matrix turning black and thus you have no control over that happening and when.

Furthermore, you may become painted white but you can soon become black very quickly and you have little control over how that happens.

How can you make the narcissist return to you?

You cannot.

You may want it to happen because you are being blinded by your emotional thinking. I understand that and you can tell me all the reasons why you want it to happen, how it will be different and so forth and I will shoot down each and every reason with ease.

You cannot make us return to you and one day, when the emotional thinking clears and logic prevails you will accept this and say

“I do not want the narcissist to return – because he is a narcissist.”

You will have then begun to seize the power.

214 thoughts on “How To Make the Narcissist Return

  1. On my journey says:

    @Caroline…. How is NC going? I have lost the count. I was just wondering about you and was not sure on which post to ask you the question. But I know you read this one. Hope all is good 🙂

  2. shawn says:

    Hi K,

    Thank you for your comment. Yeah, you guys are great. I’m going to disconnect completely from him. I have found that blocking a person does not work, they will just call from another number or private number.

  3. shawn says:


    “You can’t nip anything by responding.”

    You have me laughing so hard. Even after I wrote that (yet still posted it, honesty) I thought the same thing…I’m laughing so hard.

    I can block him, but he is a tricky one!

  4. /iroll says:

    Everyone’s so excited! I see this blog as being about the sociopathic variety of narcs and ‘toxic masculinity’, even though narcissism is genderless —this is mostly about a man who abuses women and female victims of betrayal. HG’s primary wound comes from his mother, but he was raised to be a prized son in a patriarchal conservative environment.

    People who are consumed with hatred don’t respect gender or age power differences, they use their power without inhibition.

    Sociopathic people have very low emotional intelligence, so they have no immunity – creative capacity to deal with their own traumas. These traumas can get locked up in a pattern that becomes internally self-hating and perverse, which they need to vent onto others. It is a relief for them to collapse the social boundaries between themselves and other people and act on sheer will without restraint. It’s like releasing the pressure of their internal poison, and the logic is very simple: “others are the ones hurting, not me”, because they think the antidote to suffering is power.

    Because a pathological narcissist cannot separate from the world, the only way they can detach from others is through rejection. Without rejection they just keep trying to control-assimilate, in ever more abusive and perverse ways. They have no choice, but social environment teaches them how to percieve themselves and therefore others. The inner wounding and levels of hostility varies.

    1. Elsa says:

      Thanks for your perspective, I think it’s very accurate

  5. shawn says:

    Yesterday I was receiving calls from an unavailable number all day. I think it might have been Tom because he’s been calling and texting I am not answering his calls or text messages. By evening I had, had enough! I told myself, that I pay the bills on my cell phone, so I answered. The person on the other end, disguised his voice (male) and said something that I could not make out. Whatever he said did not sound nice. That night Tom did not call or text, so I figured it was him. ASSHOLE, IDIOTS!

    narcs need a life and impersonating other people lives.

  6. shawn says:

    Hi K, and Caroline and so many other’s

    I went to the bar Friday, and of course, Tom was there. I was sitting at the bar with some friends and replying to a text message. I looked up and over to my left; Tom starring at me. I waved hello with a smile and continued the conversation with my friends. I remember HG mentioning something about those dark eyes and that dead stare. That’s what I got along with his look of how dare you to be here instead of out with me.

    Tom called me Sunday four times and texted once saying “call me.” I ignored the calls and the text. I thought about blocking him, but they will call from another number.

    I think I will find another favorite place. Tom has me a little spooked, and from what I have been reading of HG’s, narcs (depending on the type) can be violent.

    My decision also came after a friend who goes to the bar called me this past Saturday and asked me the following: “What’s up with that guy?” Guy meaning Tom. Apparently, the Friday before this past Friday, I was talking with a male friend, and unbeknownst to me until this past Saturday he (my friend) told me that Tom was giving him the evil eye. My male friend asked me if something was going on with Tom and me? To which I replied, No. My male friend said, well he sure didn’t take his eyes off you.

    Even after I proofread my post, this all seems to make no sense to me. I guess it is to be expected when one encounters a narc.

    Thanks for reading.

    1. Caroline says:

      Yes, a DIFFERENT bar, Shawn~~Cheers to that!

      1. shawn says:


  7. Shawn says:

    Hi Caroline,

    I see that you actually posted the video, so thank you very much.

    1. Caroline says:

      Oh, you are so welcome, Shawn. After I played that, I had that song stuck in my head all day.:-)

      Can I just say that I hate WordPress? It’s “hit or miss” on getting some thread comments, and I’ve given up on receiving notifications on older threads. So if anyone gives me a message and I don’t reply, I’m so sorry. I’d never ignore anyone.

      Now that I’ve complained about WordPress, I’m sure it’ll get much worse (just like a narcissist, technology is quite punishing), lol.

      1. shawn says:


        I agree with everything you have said, and that goes double for me.

        1. Caroline says:

          Haha, Shawn… very wise of you to agree without invoking the name of WordPress.

          So I’ll do it for everyone. What is WordPress gonna do to me that it hasn’t already done?

          So here goes:
          WordPress sucks!

          If I get zapped off the system, fine. Then maybe I can come back in a new dress. This pale-green shade is so very blah.

  8. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dearest K,
    Thank you lovely K for your reply. It makes me laugh as well! Speaking of wanker … he told me he was celibate for 7 years, irrelevant information I definitely did not need to know, I must say! Obviously looking for the poor me, sympathy seeking mid ranger tactics. I believe numb nuts probably relieved himself in the bathroom whilst kissing himself in the mirror at the same time! 😂He was always in there for 4 to 5 mins, minimum 4 times every time I visited! Hmmmmmm ????
    They don’t need us .. they have themselves 😂
    La hoo sa hers !!!
    Hugs x

    1. K says:

      I live in the colonies and I refer to men, like numb nuts, as a Minuteman (Usually done in 60 seconds). They really do have themselves; I listened to How The Narcissist Regards Sex on YouTube yesterday.

      I liked this term: La hoo sa hers !!!

      Hugs & kisses back XOXOXO

  9. shawn says:


    How does it make you feel (do you feel?) I’m not talking about getting burned by a fire, or hitting your toe in the middle of the night. When you read our discussions back and forth, how does it make you feel? I ask because there is a lot of support and words of endearment that flows back and forth. I know the discussion board was meant to enlighten and you say you read each one before posting, so I’m trying to understanding from a narc perspective, do you feel anything (disgust, admiration, sadness, pain, joy)?

  10. shawn says:


    Thank you for the video.That was my first time hearing that song.

    1. K says:

      You are welcome, shawn!!!

      (if you are referring to “Can’t Fight the Moonlight” by Leann Rimes, that was posted by Caroline, but, since I am learning how to think/behave like a narcissist, I will gladly take the credit for posting it. My sense of entitlement, lack of accountability and empathy makes life so easy now)

      p.s. I am being facetious.

  11. shawn says:


    “as they simply didn’t know what a narcissist was either.”

    When I mention narc signs to my friends, they look at me as though I’m obsessed with this. But, I’m just trying to enlighten us all from falling into the narc trap. But, lately, I have been thinking that I might stop mentioning it to them.

    I honestly wanted to start a support group in my neighborhood for those who experience abuse, but the more I think about the dangers, and there is a danger, because I’m finding that individuals make excuses for their partners bad behaviors. Not to mention the abusive partner might not take to kindly that their partner is becoming enlighten and they come looking for that enlightener and not to have a friendly conversation either.

    Bibi, thanks for making me laugh with your comment…”‘You mean it’s NOT me????’”

  12. shawn says:

    “My Mid Range Moron was just a ‘friendship’ but he held openness over my head…”

    OMG! Bibi, are you sure we wasn’t seeing the same mid range?

    The narc patterns never changes. Is it me or are they just that predictable?

  13. shawn says:

    On my journey,

    I really enjoy reading your post, and K post, and so many other’s here.

    The struggle, the pain, the questions, the indecisiveness, the blame, the thinking, that everyone goes through. These are all stories and even when some might break the NC rule, its right back on that horse and trying again.

    I have realized the worst thing we can do to ourselves is blame ourselves. I found that its not me or you or us, that is to blame. From the hundreds of similar and same stories that I have read when one comes in contact with a narc the patterns are always the same.This to me is confirmation that its not me, but them.

    1. On my journey says:

      Thanks Shawn ! I came to realize that they are predictable and going through the same cycle over and over again.

      So the idea is if ever you are crazy enough like me or addicted or still have a “ good” reason to stay – to know how to respond and not react and know what is coming next eg: d’évaluation so you can stop before it gets too ugly .

      Although there is no way you can do that on your own unless you have practice a lot and mastered your emotional thinking. Hard to sit in their shit show and not get splashed:))

      I am learning about me and certainly it has change my way of interacting with non-Narcs as well.

      Stick here- it is a life line

  14. shawn says:

    Hi June,

    “(Still thinking though that if he is with the other woman and not me then I failed in some way , although I don’t know how and since I don’t know how my mind cannot rest)”

    Believe me when I say “You did everything right!” I understand about the thinking, it’s like you cannot turn off those thoughts. The more you think about it the longer your self doubt will linger. I have been NC for two weeks now with a mid-range narc. The reason for this is that he is out of the Country. I hope when he returns he does not call and if he does I will not answer. There is no since in going backwards, Right?

    I often remind myself of the following: “Insanity Is Doing The Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results” (not happening with the narc).

    As I have heard so many say on this discussion board, stay here, vent, seek HG advice and stay NC.

  15. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Gorgeous K … Oops again … it was Jan 2017 .. Mr Bubbles reminded me…. our brain is never the same after being with a narc … that’s a no brainer 😂

    1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dearest lovely K,
      Me too, me too … I’m Dory as well … 3 sec memory …. haha 🐟
      I’m sure the midget weasel did Indian rain dances in the nude around his hard to vacuum imitation Persian carpet, made in china, bought from Kmart, that was donated to the salvos he bought for $5 in his lounge around his electric imitation gas fire with closed windows n doors and hatches bolted, talking in tongues about all his victims because we all ignited his precious fury …. my weasel was always sulking about some insignificant useless nonsense that hadnt even happened… he was forever “regrouping” .. what a wanker …. 😂

      Ps … if I see the weasel next month… starve the weasel I will … thanks for the heads up sweet pea

      1. K says:

        My pleasure, Bubbles
        The word “wanker” makes me laugh! Ha ha ha….

  16. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    This post is amazing and so are the comments!
    I can relate to the spidery feeling … I actually said that to the weasel “said the spider to the fly”… he laughed!
    I asked him “why ” when he approached me in the carpark …. “why are you talking to me … Why ????? ” I asked three or four times, (we are forever repeating ourselves to these head butts) I was discarded at that stage. No answer from him!
    I’ve seen women stay with men who treat them bad or are in affairs .. they know, yet they stay … some like the security of him paying the bills and are scared of being alone …. I know there’s a male shortage but surely that’s a price to high to pay! These days its ok to be single, it’s a growing trend ! Most men are more trouble than their worth, they snore, they pee on the floor and they’re always hungry 😂
    My step dad was named Tom …. I don’t trust Toms!
    I don’t trust .. period! To me, everyone is a narc until Mr Tudor confirms otherwise 😂
    My heartfelt wishes to you all you lovelies, I feel privileged to be here sharing our stories and going thru the healing process with you
    …. thankyou 💜
    Absolutely Brilliant Mr Tudor !

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Bubbles.

    2. K says:

      Say hello to your first, short silent treatment. “No answer from him!” The Weasel just wants your fuel, just ignore him.

      I agree; never trust Toms, there have been several Peeping-Toms in the news lately.

      1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

        Heeey gorgeous K,
        Sorry, I tend to talk short hand … what goes on in my head doesnt come out the same on paper, blogs or from my mouth 😂👄🗣
        The weasel was in the carpark last Jan 2016, peace has reigned supreme ever since …he currently has a victim he’s been stringing along. Unfortunately, he will be in the same prestigious event as Mr Bubbles next month soooo we are not looking forward to that … hopefully all will be smooth sailing. I know what to do and say if he has the hide to approach me/us.
        When I told him I didn’t want to be his friend anymore …. no answer …. pathetic aren’t they? The thing is, I copped the same crap as everyone else and we were just friends, I believe he wanted more, but I said … Nevaaaaaar evaaaar !!!! 😂
        Your peeping tom line is a classic 😂
        Thanks gorgeous 😘

        1. K says:

          My pleasure, Sweet Bubbles!

          Don’t trust Toms! made me laugh.

          My memory is terrible after my narc experience. I feel like Dory from Finding Nemo sometimes. Huh? What? I don’t remember that.

          I noticed that when I disagreed with my narcissists they wouldn’t respond, like the weasel. When I reread Exposed-5 further tips to flush out the narc I found the answer:

          The Mid-Range will fall silent as he tries to prevent the criticism from igniting his fury. He cannot respond because he is exerting his control to keep his ignited fury under control.

          Say hello to your first, short silent treatment.

          When you know what to do, it makes dealing with them so much easier.
          Starve The Weasel.

  17. shawn says:

    Hi K,

    Thank you for reading my post and replying. Tom called me at 1am this morning. I only answered because I’m trying to be amicable towards him. Knowing how violent they can become I want to avoid any confrontations with him. Tom asked if he could take me out Friday. I told him I was sleep and would call him in the morning. I called and avoided all conversations about going out with him. Actually, I hang up rather quickly. Now, I can ignore all his calls. I’m not worried about running into him at the bar. His pride and grandiose sense of self is too huge for a personal public rejection. K, I’m finding once you give a narc a bone, than they want meat on it. Meaning, once you come to know who (what) they are its best to avoid them completely.

    1. K says:

      You are welcome, shawn, your comments are great and I enjoyed reading about your experience with Tom because it helps further my understanding of the dynamic.

      1 am…oh dear, that demonstrates a sense of entitlement, complete lack of boundaries and empathy (who cares if she is sleeping; I need fuel). You are correct, once you give a narc a bone, he is going to keep salami slicing till he gets the whole dinner. You may want to skip the bar and play it safe.

      1. Shawn says:

        Hi K,
        Thank you so much for replying. He called again tonight. I did not answer. K I like that bar. It’s the first and only place that I have felt comfortable In since moving to this State 11 years now.
        Why should I have to deny myself the one place I go to after a long week of Work? I don’t want to go straight home. The weekends go to fast. Ugh! I sound like a whiny baby.

        1. K says:

          Hello Shawn
          I completely understand, if you like the bar, keep going. Tomorrow is Friday, let me know how it goes with Tom, if you don’t mind. 11 pm is late, but not as late as 1 am. Sometimes, emotional thinking clouds logical thinking and I understand that. It makes me glad that I am not looking for a relationship, after my experience, I would rather be all alone than ever risk dating a narcissist. I shudder at the thought.

      2. Shawn says:

        One more thing…the women I know believe that when a man calls you that late he wants to make sure your not married or living with someone. Therefore, we (my circle of female friends) do the same to men and usually call them around 11pm to see if they pick up. We do this because most
        men usually talk, and text with you all day, but after 9pm, silence on their end.

        I know, where’s the logic? It’s so much relationship games in this world, it’s to the point of ugliness.

      3. Shawn says:

        Hi K,

        I appreciate your comments and advice. I guess it’s my native New Yorker sterotype that we don’t scare easily which is why I’m going. I’m not interested in him nor his trickery, and I won’t run and hide either. I’m so fed up with narc attitude that they rule the world.

        K, thank you again.

        1. Caroline says:


          Regarding the bar… just make sure you can fight the moonlight:

        2. K says:

          My pleasure, Shawn!

  18. On My Journey says:

    @ Caroline ! Bravo on NC7 !!

    Tight rope for me is that after being NC for 10 days , I decided to return with a very specific objective . With the help of HG and my growing logical thinking, I act countertuitively for a co-dependent , and what I want really depends on the Narc willingness. So … I am on a tight rope and I do slide every now and then but very mildly compare to how I was before.

    So that is my tight rope. I am amazed at the response from my Narc , when I follow the logic instead of my co-dependant usual , certain things I say and do I am scared as hell they will make me lose but they apparently get me closer – although no guarantee given his extensive and complex fuel matrix.

    I have been with him 1.5 years now and was golden but not exclusive on his part for 6 months. I was the favorite of the IPSS stable ( sorry for the word – but might as well call a cat a cat ) for those 6 months .

    I know the Narcissist quite a lot – I have guessed him from the begining – «  you always calls my bs out «  you never believe what I say «  etc … because I have been through many personal struggles while In relation with him – we have had very deep conversations about our hole , our need to fill the hole, his demons , escaping coping strategy etc so I have the impression I know him but again it could only be an illusion. I am sure he was taking more info than giving out info but we talked a lot about his upbringing and his father puppet master, very scarcely about his mom , which I am sure lies a big part of his construct.

    As for HG – I know the professional – the coach – in limited interactions and from his books . I find that what he does is really unique – that he does help you build your confidence in a very subtle manner and that he gives you what you are able to take and assess progress and consolidation of it . Can’t run before you walk .

    For my addiction – I have had many addictions in my life some I have overcome ( gambling and alcohol) some I am still struggling – co-depency t name one. I would say that before I went NC I was at 15/10 – this is why I went NC. It was like before I stopped drinking – I physically – psychologically felt that something was controlling me that all my actions and decisions were aiming one point .. drinking and escaping. When I went NC – it wasn’t like when i stopped drinking – immense relieve amen sense of freedom – I never drank again but I went back to the narc . I regret it – because the frame of mind in which I had left was powerful – I was in control ognon my departure.
    So now I learn about me and about behaviors as well. He is a greater elite – part of me thinks he knows and understands what is going on. WIth HG. Help I feel Moreno in contrôl and use my own devil toolkit’s

    Lately … I ask myself without judging me … why do I do that ? I don’t neeed to engage with him he is a narcissist . Every interaction with him is now different because I see it’s with my logical thinking 5 times out of 10 instead of emotional thinking no that was 10 times out of 10.

    No results garanteed because he decides right … and he has a very extensive fuel matrix so dependant on what other IPSS do or how they react to him .

    Hope this help

    Bravo again for nc7

    1. Caroline says:

      Wow, Journey… you really *are* on quite the journey… and bravo to you (tenfold) for overcoming your addictions. That’s so great – I imagine that’s been incredibly tough… and now you’re learning more about your engagement with the narcissist, with HG. Good for you.

      So would you say you’re holding out hope to be his IPPS, or you’re trying to wean yourself off him? If that’s too personal or would rather not say, totally ignore. What I wish is for you to feel safe + valued + strong. 🙂

      1. On my journey says:

        Thanks Caroline for keep reading me and your questions.

        So I am now half shelved negotiating my way to be part time regular with some set time. Namely seeing him a preset number of days per month. We use to have it – I wanted to be the only IPSS or the preferred IPSS but it worked only in the golden period . Over time set time reduced and this is how I became frustrated and went NC.

        I do not want to be IPPS – no one wants – even his actual IPSS does not see him all the time and does not live with him.

        Believe me , I was dreaming of marriage etc j’en kept telling me I was the best possible wife etc
        God now that I know what I know … I am trying this for a set objective that is very personal, but, with HG , we are progressing through it and if things don’t head in that direction I will go eventually NC.

        At this point of my life , I want to be single . I have been in relationships for the past 27 years with one relation that lasted 17 years . ( he was not a narcissist but he has traits that are strong in the Narc continuum – especially for controlling others)
        Maybe he is …

        I have man around me – who are not narcissists and who are interested – I think I am addicted to the drama and action my greater elite brings

        I love the answer that HG gave to June with IPSS and sex – that is why I stay very c’ose
        To HG and we monitor progress weekly.
        I know he will keep me honest when if things gets too far.

        The difference now – I am so less emotional about all this and I want les and less of that drama and sharing a man.

        Frankly , when we started I was ok with companionship and did not wanted more but he gave me more and then took it away this is when things started to fuck up.

        Voilà !!
        Good NC8

        1. Caroline says:

          I laughed out loud at nobody wanting to be his IPPS — sounds like good thinking, women! :-)That is really awesome that you are consulting regularly like that with HG. I have no doubt he will help you. I respect that you have your eyes wide open as to what is what, and that you are dealing quite honestly with yourself… so although I very much feel like “just totally get out of there!”, I do understand where you are coming from, and I respect that this is *your* journey, Journey ;-)…and you have every right to navigate through it the way you choose~these are your decisions to make.

          I’m FOR you, and hoping you find your peace/contentment!:-) XO!

          P.S. Oh, and yes…they are Drama Kings, for sure. I liked the verbal sparring at times, but some of my narcissist’s ideas of drama were not fun, so there’s lots of stuff I do *not* miss.

          1. On my journey says:

            @ Caroline … i see it like this … I play my best game with HG as a coach and the blog as a friend.

            Then for things to happen there is a mixture of his complex fuel matrix , how other IPSS will treat it , leave him or come back to him, how is IPPS and him will fight or be at peace etc etc and … his willingness – I have escape and he might have enough in his fuel matrix to think he can have me bench forever and string me along . That would have been true before this site and the knowledge I have acquirred.

            I know I have the best expert with me on my side And my brain is more and more thinking logically and les emotionally so… I am at peace with the outcome in advance – within a few weeks – I will know the tangent this is taking and will be able to have enough information to stay or Leave

            Happy to chat !!! Thanks for supporting my journey !

          2. Caroline says:


            And let the games begin! Lol.

            It sounds mind-bending — would love to “listen under the consultation door”!

            P.S. Glad to be here for you, anytime.

    2. Carrie Ann Khaddour says:

      Just get er done with a silver bullet and let the birds pick his carcass LOL

      1. On my journey says:

        @ Cari Ann and Caroline – before I would take each of his manipulation tactic as ‘ I am not good enough, I am not this or that, he does not like me etc … Now I say «  oh that is another manipulation tactic, nothing to do with me in reality «  and so I don’t react with my emotional thinking … I react in the logic I am learning.

        He always told me that I was not logical enough .. oh well … :))

        Revenge has to eaten cold !

  19. Caroline says:

    Hi, On My Journey~

    I’m responding to your reply, above, to me.

    First, you will find no judgment from me on your situation, just to get that out of the way! I’m humbled if my experience helps you in any way at all.:-)

    “My” narcissist is an Elite too, and if he’s not a Greater, then he’s a very very edgy UMRer! 😉 Anyway, he’s very smart, and he gives the type of humor that I like (dry). That can make it harder to disengage, if you like the mental stimulation they offer. They know how to keep us interested, in other words.

    Just a few misc questions for you:

    1) “Walking a tightrope” is exactly how I have felt (said that very phrase in my head) in trying to get him off me (attempting not to anger him into revenge). What specifically do you feel you are getting out of being on your tightrope?

    2) I was with my narcissist for 3 years, in a FR. I know HG better than him. YOU know HG better than your narcissist. Do you agree with that?

    3) On a scale 1-10 (10 being most), how addicted to your narcissist do you think you are? If you’re not sure, maybe think about how much emotional pain/longing you would feel if today was the day you went NC.

    NC Day 7

  20. June says:

    After two years of a very rocky relationship with a narcissist he moved in with another woman . He tells me how happy they are and how much time they spend together but he wants to keep seeing me too, suggesting friends with benefits arrangement . I told him I will see him again when he is free again and ready to commit to me but I am in pain so much I feel like running to him and begging to allow me to be his side-woman . If i did that what would happen? Maybe there would be a chance for us to have a good sex and some friendship …It is too painful , it’s like a heroine addiction . How to make him chose me? I am not ready to give him up

    1. HG Tudor says:

      All you will do is continue to be the shelf IPSS picked up and put down as and when he chooses. You do not have control over that.

      If you want occasional good sex and the appearance of friendship (because it is not) in exchange for always wondering what he is doing, being devalued when you step out of line, never being able to feel in control of the relationship, being treated like an object and so forth then carry on.

      You cannot make him choose you.

      What you can do is go no contact and tackle the effect of your clearly rampant emotional thinking so you start to ease the clear pain you are experiencing. Stating you are not ready to give him up is just your emotional thinking conning you. It is not a case of being ready – you will always find an excuse that you are not ready, you just need to do it.

      1. shawn says:


        Thank you for your honest post. I appreciate that you are able to admit that you would be willing to enter into a sexual relationship, even knowing what he is. I think like you most all the time, but than I am reminded of what comes with it. NOTHING for me!

        HG. Thanks for responding to June. I was hoping you would. You have answered both our irrational thinking. Now that’s what I call killing two birds with one stone.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

      2. Caroline says:

        HG gave you the best insight… and remember, he knows of what he speaks. You can tell HE thinks the Shelf IPSS is a real crappy deal!

        Basically, you’re a plaything. That’s degrading. No way you should ever accept that for yourself. It’s insulting that he’d even propose it.

      3. SMH says:

        What is the difference between being a ‘shelf’ IPSS and being an affair partner/mistress? Asking because mine grew cold and very difficult when I said I was fine with an affair.

        Why would he not want me to want what he said he wanted? Too easy? My feeling is that he wanted drama and me to compete with the wife. But I never did and I was terribly confused about why he could not handle a casual relationship.

        This is what I would warn June about. He might say he wants to keep seeing you, but if you acquiesce he will have no use for you because what he really wants is for you to fight with the other woman over him.

        Finally, I just read about IPPS and devaluation. It makes me sad to think that I contributed to it by being a fuel source for him.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          There is no difference.

      4. SMH says:

        Hi HG, One of my comments from 28 March is still awaiting moderation. Other ones have gone through, so I am not sure why that one is ‘stuck.’ It is about being a ‘shelf’ IPSS. I would love some input on my questions in that comment. Thank you!

      5. Bibi says:

        Great response. I heard of a situation involving a narcissist who pursued a woman but once she fell for him, he told her he had a gf.

        At 1st she put her foot down and said, ‘Either me or her!’ but he kept on with the sob story or whatever excuse till he managed to erode her to the point where she found herself willing to allow him to be with her as long as she got a piece of him once in a while.

        She was miserable the entire time, of course, always wondering what was going to come of it.

        When this happens, we end up giving them complete control of the relationship, where we tell ourselves, ‘Let’s see what happens.’ But when we say that, what we’re really saying is, ‘I’ll stick it out long enough for him to hopefully choose me.’

        My Mid Range Moron was just a ‘friendship’ but he held openness over my head, promising that ‘someday he will share and explain things eventually, blah blah blah,’ meanwhile he is shrouding himself in secrecy and I am waiting and wondering and understanding and waiting and wondering…

        till I come to learn that I have wasted all this time and effort and energy on a person who couldn’t even give me basic respect.

        I agree with the comment towards June about it being about her self worth. Because that’s what it was really about with me.

      6. June says:

        Thank you. You took away my misleading hope that gave me strength to move away . I feel actually much lighter since I made the first steps to walk away. (Still thinking though that if he is with the other woman and not me then I failed in some way , although I don’t know how and since I don’t know how my mind cannot rest)

        1. Caroline says:

          I’m on the flipside, but I’m hoping I can help you see this differently…

          The narcissist won’t stop chasing after me. So, wow, I must be fabulous, right? It doesn’t matter if I’m “fabulous” or not — what it has to do with is that the narcissist thinks he can use me to feed off, for whatever is missing in him.

          That is insulting! He unrelentingly continues to come after me — so why is that? The only thing I can think of is that he figures he can wear me down. That is insulting! So I’m upset the other way.

          It is really not about us. They see people for how they can USE them.

          So it’s not about your not being good enough. You are supplying that answer to the wrong question.

          The question is not “What is wrong with me?”
          The question is “What is wrong with HIM?”

          Answer: He is a narcissist.

          So he will act like one.

          1. On my journey says:

            Thank you Caroline for this … very powerful. Sometimes all you can end up telling yourself is … fuck it , fuck that …. who cares … he is a narcissist and predictably this is what he will do.

            Sometimes – when I feel like texting him … i say to myself …I dont need to write to him .. he is a narcissist .

            My greater Elite is doing things he has never done before – tools he has never used- because I don’t respond the same way. I am always amazed at how many tools they have. Although predictable in their cycle – they are unpredictable in using their arsenals.

            One word : insidious – it is in your face but you don’t see it – at least I think I see 50% now- which helps the distance between the emotions and the actions. That split second where you have choice of behaviors. The more you get ensnared the less space available there is between the emotions and we actions- because of the addictions and he obsession about the narc and the fatigue …

    2. Insatiable Learner says:

      Hi June, I understand how much pain you must be in and how tempting this may sound as a means to relieve this pain. Please don’t do it. The pain will be many times more severe if you do. Please follow HG’s advice. This arrangement will destroy you emotionally, psychologically, and physically. You will be a pawn, helpless, hopeless, treated like an object with no dignity and regard for your feelings. You will be in agony. Please believe me. Go NC and start on your healing journey. Do not offer yourself as a sacrifice on this narc’s altar. He is not worth it. Give it time and NC and you will see it. Be strong. Save yourself. You only live once. Do not waste it on this narc. Stay here, read, consult with HG, and relief will come. I promise you that. You will feel much better.

      1. June says:

        Thank you so much. I really needed some support, advice, direction and reassurance because I felt like I was dying . But I said no to him thanks to you guys and I feel actually much better, lighter! Thank you

        1. Caroline says:

          Good for you. You made my day!

          It may continue be a struggle for some time, but I swear that the longer you can stay away, the more clear your head will be… which gives your heart a chance to catch up to some real truths. You’ll strengthen and truly know your worth, which is PRICELESS.

          I’m rooting for you. Oh, and don’t think you need to perfect at this narcissism thing – nobody is. It’s a process.

          Really proud of you! Big step you took. 🙂

    3. Lori says:


      I don’t want to sound harsh but you have a serious addiction problem and my guess is severely codependent if you are willing to throw your self worth in the garbage like that.

      I think you need a professional to help you with this. At this point, this isn’t about him anymore it’s about you and what wounds you need to address because in telling you out of kindness and love if you are willing to let him treat you like a piece of garbage there is a self worth issue and wound you need to address and that’s why he chose you

      A normal man won’t respect or desire a woman who allows them to treat them like trash. They just won’t that is hard wired in them. A narcissist will respect you even less and abuse you more.

      This is no longer about him. It’s about you healing your wounds

      1. June says:

        Thank you , I needed to hear that I guess

      2. Lori says:


        You can get better. Get a professional to help you with this. You can climb out if this dark place you are in. You can.

        I am not all the way better obviously as I had another Narc abuse me but in nowhere near the mess I was the first time

        Please don’t allow this piece of garbage to treat you like that. Please get a professional to help you with this. Sometimes you can’t do on own your own. We all need help from time to time

    4. Morning sun says:

      These relationships are really addictive – of course you need to be prone to this type of addiction or it will never develop. I remember thinking how I would give anything to be in a formal relationship with the narc, even if he cheated on me like he did/does on his wife. I felt that just being near him would warm my soul and be worth pretty much anything in the world. I physically shudder when I think of that now.

      I remember with absolute clarity the few moments when I was on the cusp of recognising him for the dangerous person he is. It was like a bucket of cold water was poured over me. I prodded and he talked me out of it. The next time something like that happened he reacted with cold fury and I let it go. The last time I confronted him and he immediately retracted his statement, saying he hadn’t meant it this way – but at that point, I already knew and no longer trusted him.

      In a normal, healthy relationship, you don’t wonder whether you can trust him. You are not confused about what is what and what his actions mean and why his words don’t match his actions etc. You do not feel uncertain and fearful of saying/doing certain things or not saying/doing them. You do not experience those great ups and downs. Things are EASY. You don’t have to be on your guard all the time.

    5. /iroll says:

      June, booty call is the *only* relationship you’d ever want with a narc, because then you’re not investing everything you have, you still keep your freedom – and you see them as a fix. ONLY. I’ve gone through so many cycles of discard with mine that i just smirk when he comes begging for sex, i get to observe and understand, especially my own triggers. Learn to recognise the absudity and understand that not everything has to make rational sense, they work for their ego, you’re working from your complexes too.

      Find out what emotional patterns the addiction is based on and gradually wean your self-esteem (total illusion) off of him. Find your own power. Also raise your oxytocin levels, get a pedi, haircut, shop therapy (*long as that’s not another addiction) do yoga, see a great movie, spend time with friends while NOT talking about him, have amazing martini and sushi, pet some puppies, aromatherapy, fluffy blanket, etc.

      He can’t read your mind and berating yourself internally won’t impact anything in reality, so take a day off!

      I’d suggest a therapist, but therapy is about you not him and most therapists don’t want to talk about someone else – you still need to put in the self work.

      1. SMH says:

        I don’t think one can even be a booty call with these types – they still treat you like crap. In fact, ‘booty call’ is a challenge to suck you in and then discard you. If you get to the point of not caring at all how you are treated, then you are spent, abused, dead. Not worth it, in my opinion.

      2. shawn says:

        Hello /iroll,

        “I’ve gone through so many cycles of discard with mine that i just smirk when he comes begging for sex, i get to observe and understand, especially my own triggers.”

        I was reading your post to June and I thought “wow” this person knows what their talking about and what I’m going through. My mid-range came back from visiting his mom (2 weeks) of no contact with him, felt good. I’m not sure when he came back to the States, but according to him it was Monday. I saw that he called me three times on Wednesday. I tried my best not to answer, but I gave in on Thursday and of course, it was the usually blah, blah, blah…What can you do for me conversation. Then on to the next topic, sex; I guess that was his way of saying you do this for me, I’ll give you sex.

        So, today, Friday, I got the usually pornography text messages from him (predictable to say the least). iroll, I pasted your comment in this post, as I am particularly interested to understand what do you mean by triggers. Also, if you don’t mind, do you give in when your narc comes “begging” for sex?

        I appreciate your comments.

  21. shawn says:

    Hi Caroline,

    Thanks for replying. I don’t mind reading long posts or creating one, if necessary. I’m finding the more I talk to my friends about narc signs they are starting to think I’m obsessed with it. So, my views on narc are somewhat not taken seriously. My friends brush it over as men just being “dogs.” However, “here” we know it’s much deeper.

    I previously mentioned HG Tudor’s “SEX AND THE NARCISSIST” book (first HG Tudor book read) to my narc friend. His comment: “something is wrong with that guy (HG). You don’t really believe and take that stuff seriously.”

    Before coming across HG on YouTube, I was on another site and stories like these were so heart wrenching. The site was geared towards victims supporting one another, yet while all the stories were similar or worse, there lacked the version from a true narc, something that I needed in order to break the cycle.

    So, yea, I believe other narcissist would detest HG. However, it is my belief that these other narcissist will come out in droves with their version on how to recognize a narc, etc.

    HG, how would you feel about a little competition from other narcs telling their version of narcissism?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      They are not really competition. The difficulty you have is that the majority do not know what they are and therefore would not be in a position to tell their version. I have seen the occasional individual who claims to be a narcissist and they have changed or been cured – these individuals may well be narcissistic and are not narcissists or they are narcissists and their “admission” that they are one is not a true admission. They do not actually accept it but they use it as a means of manipulation – hence the declaration that they have changed – they have not, it is just part of the manipulation.

      1. Elsa says:

        I believe that victims and mid rangers would never accept and almost never realise they are narcissists… I was married to a mid ranger (I think, I am trying to remember several things but since I started to read HG some months ago I cannot relate in real time). Now I just broke a 5y relation with a greater (at least I think I broke), and of course you need to live it to know you’ve met one of this kind… I have met many many many people, and nobody would believe how this mind works… I am sure he is not in competition with anybody because he feels he is strictly superior… and I start to think he knows that I finally caught him, in a different way that all of his previous partners that just complained without understanding… I did it comprehensively and with rationale, now knowing whom I am dealing with, so I do not complain (I just understand that our mind structure and values are different), I am just moving away and moving on, and something tells me that he knows who he is and that he has been caught (really) for the first time…

      2. Elsa says:

        Btw, now I know I am a super empath

    2. On my journey says:

      My Narc I believe would be flatter I hired and pay someone to help me understand him … he would not think someone can beat him or know him he things he is the only one like this. That he is very complex and special. He is a greater elite he would be amuse and think I am paying a lot of interest in him and I just want so much to be loved that I hire people to help me cause I can’t find how to operate with him … voila !!

      1. Caroline says:

        Oh, not “mine”… he’d be furious (mainly that I’d listen to anyone but him, especially *about him*) but calmly explain why HG was full of it. Likely, he wouldn’t even skip a beat or break a sweat… he’d also consider it as my challenging him, and he’d not forget it.

        How do I know? FR.

    3. K says:

      As crazy as it might seem, you need a narc to get better and that is the reason why I am here. He knew exactly how I felt. Go figure.

      This line made me laugh: something is wrong with that guy (HG).

      1. HG Tudor says:

        The thing is K, I am so wrong, I am right.

        1. K says:

          Correct, HG. In order to find the logic, you need to look at the illogical. If you want to find the light, you need to go into the dark.

          Alan Watts calls this the law of reverse effort or the backwards law: trying to make everything right often causes things to go wrong

      2. shawn says:

        Hi K,

        “Ditto.” I agree K. It’s similar to having a drug or alcoholic counselor, who are usually recovering addicts that knows what one is going through.

        1. K says:

          Hello shawn
          Exactly. You need a predator to teach you how to defend yourself from a predator. I liked your story about Tom; they really are everywhere and very predictable. Tom reminded me of an LMRN, very sulky, petulant and passive aggressive and he didn’t manage his fury well. I agree, once you know, you go. No excuses.

      3. Bibi says:

        Had I known of HG during my ordeal, I feel like he is the only one who would have really seen what the problem was and what I was dealing with.

        I would have been shocked actually. ‘You mean it’s NOT me????’

        Everyday observers, while they knew he was an asshole, still were under the guise of, ‘Well, this is just the way he is and you need to respect that,’ which only made me feel worse because it resonated with the narc speak who said to me, ‘You need to accept me for how I am.’

        So I need to respect that he is a pathological liar and manipulator, in other words.

        And this isn’t to dis those ‘trying to help’; I can’t fault them, as they simply didn’t know what a narcissist was either.

    4. Caroline says:

      Well, of course something’s “wrong” with him, lol! 😉

      1. June says:

        After two years very rocky relationship with a narcissist he moved in with another woman . He tells me how happy they but he wants to keep seeing me. I told him I will see him again when he is free not in a relationship but I am in pain so much I feel like running to him and begging to allow me to be his side-woman . I know … I know….If I did what would happen? Maybe there would be a chance for us to have a good sex at least …. it’s soooo painful , it’s like a heroine addiction . How to make him chose

  22. shawn says:


    “They infect you. It’s real.”

    Awesome. Like so many here, I really appreciate your stories.

    1. Caroline says:

      Oh gosh, that’s so sweet of you, Shawn…I kind of forget that anyone is reading my comments except HG or the person I reply to. Now I feel sort of self-conscious. (I’m an odd empath, lol).

      1. shawn says:

        Hi Caroline,

        Lol…Yup, I’m reading “them” all. Everyone’s story is wonderful. Reading the challenges and abuses endured, and than reading how they (we) are getting stronger and wiser is encouraging and hopeful.

        Imagine, we are strangers from all over the world, never met, yet, there is a connection. At the center of it all is the infamous HG Tudor.

        This is incredible.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          And that is one of the constructive purposes of this place.

        2. Caroline says:

          That is a lovely way to put it, Shawn, and so true.

          And I know “Sir London Bridge” must also be pleased you placed him at the center (and he, rightfully, is). 😉

          I’m seriously so grateful he created this place for us. I know he’s hurt people… but he’s helping so many with this, which I hope he feels is his biggest legacy.

          My narcissist would detest him for enlightening me! (just a little fuel, well-earned, for HG… especially since I made ungodly long posts on this thread).

          1. On my journey says:

            Dear Caroline ! This is a reply to all the replies on your thread and story.

            I do actually enjoy the strategy part of interaction with my Narc now. I was on my way to become a great Narc I believe but my sister and Bulliers in school stopped me.

            In university I scored the highest woman in history at the machiavel test – a test for negotiation skills and wicked strategy .

            I have noticed that with HG’s help and this blog I act very counterintuively and the results , mental posture and actions are very different that if I was not guided through my interaction now.

            I do enjoy it I must say- but reading your story keeps me honest and realistic since I am dealing with an elite greater – and that i cannot pretend that I can be the upper hand holder while interacting with him because he is also at the star of his art.

            I am sure I will get the game fatigue and I’ll look for something better for me.

            Meanwhile – keep educating us on your process it is indeed very helpful.

            I am on a tight rope , like say HG and I can slide easily – so I come here everyday to keep my emotional thinking at bay.

            Happy end of 6 NC day – tomorrow is a humpf day :))

  23. shawn says:

    Fuel or no fuel… I want to thank GOD for using Mr. HG Tudor in expanding our understanding and helping us to avoid not only narcissistic relationships but all forms of abusive relationships.

    Please humor me a little while I give my story. After work on Fridays, I go to one of my favorite bars to unwind with a glass of sangria and good conversation with professional men and women. This place is like the sitcom “Cheers” where literally, “everybody knows your name.”

    So, there is a man there who I’ll call Tom. Tom took an interest in me. However, as I have been learning (YOUTUBE, BOOKS, POST, and INTERVIEWS) from HG, narcissists have a confident demeanor about them in the way they carry themselves. I knew he could be one of them. But, the kind (empath) person that I am exchanged phone numbers. He called, we talked. However, I knew I was not interested in what he was offering (narc abuse). I nicely rejected him. But he kept calling me; I didn’t answer.

    The following Friday I went to my favorite bar. Tom, of course, was there, as he is a regular too. He looked at me with those dark piercing eyes, ordered his drink and went to smoke his cigar. Again, being the nice person I am went to where he was sitting and said hello. Tom’s response: “Why you acting up.” That was an automatic mind f%%%% for me. My response: What do you mean, I’m acting up? Tom: You know what you doing? Me: No. Tom: “I’m just going to sit here, and ignore you like you do me when I call you.” I looked at Tom as his black, dark eyes stared straight ahead, ignoring that I was sitting next to him. I got up and walked back to the bar.

    Early the next morning, Tom called. I ignored the call. During the week he called, guess what I did? Answered, and because I am glutton for punishment, I agreed to have dinner with him. Tom asked if he could call me that night, I said sure.

    Here‘s where my narc senses really saved me…

    That night Tom did not call me. I waited for that call too. The next morning I called him. I let Tom Know that I was canceling our dinner. Tom asked why. My response, “My father always’ said if a man doesn’t have his word, he has nothing (lie on my part). I refreshed his memory that he had asked to call me that night.

    Here is when the narc word scramble starts… Tom: “I didn’t say I was going to call you, I asked if I could call you.” Tom’s response sealed it for me. I pleasantly ended the conversation; we hung up, and guess what? Tom called back again, this time with a narc excuse. Tom: “You didn’t even ask why I didn’t call you.” Me: “silent.” Tom: “I had a migraine and went to sleep.” Me: “silent.” Tom: “So you still canceling our dinner?” Me: Yeah. Tom: “I can’t get a second chance?” Me: No, I hope you feel better, it’s not going to work and I’m driving so I’m getting off the phone, have a nice day.” Tom: “Alright, bye.”

    I say all this to say; I never knew words like word scramble or narc abuse. At the very beginning when my narc senses detected Tom was one of them, I ignored what I was sensing and continued with Tom, even agreeing to have dinner with him. However, no matter how much we disagree with HG’s behavior and attitude, and as hard as it can be to admit HG is helping all of us. We are more aware, and really have no more excuses to blame others for their misconduct/abuse of us.

    By the way, HG, what you did to Kay (REVENGE: HOW TO BEAT THE NARCISSIST) was ugly.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome Shawn.

    2. Bibi says:

      “I didn’t say I was going to call you, I asked if I could call you.”

      Yup, there you have it folks. Thanks for sharing, Shawn.

      1. shawn says:

        Hi Bibi,

        LMBO, before clicking on the comments section to actually get into the discussion, I was reading your response from my initial inbox and I was laughing to myself. That’s how crazy they sound. I am so glad that a “true” narcissist (HG) was forced into revealing who and what they are. Otherwise, I would have thought “well, maybe he did say that…” Lmbo.

  24. Caroline says:

    Oh, and K?

    What did you do when the big, bad guilt hits you? Well, that may be my own particular issue — guilt-ing myself. This afternoon, I feel a wave of guilt. My internal dialog:

    I was so mean! I shouldn’t have called him names. Mean! I really should apologize… he can’t help it that he’s a narcissist. He thinks that all is fair in love and war – he thinks you’re his soul mate and that you can save him – yes, it’s twisted, but there was no reason to unload on him like that. Okay, yes, he has done some very bad things — but again, that’s what narcissists do. You should return his call and apologize. Wow, you were mean…like going from a sweet, soft, golden retriever puppy frolicking through a spring meadow of tulips — to Cujo, the Attack Dog, grrrr, grrrr, grrrrr — ripping him to frickin’ shreds.

    So very mean.:-(

    NC Day 4
    (The Day’s Itinerary: A Major Guilt Trip)

    1. K says:


      This might sound strange but when I fought with my MMRN I didn’t feel guilty afterwards. Most likely, because I went into Supernova mode and I dimmed my empath traits reducing the gap between empathy and narcissism thus reducing guilt.

      Ok, let’s look at this logically:

      1. You were angry and defending yourself and you had every right to do so.
      2. It is ok to be mean; it was self-defense.
      3. You have nothing to apologize for; he abused you. The only one who deserves an apology is you.
      4. Yes, he is a narcissist and he is wired VERY differently from you. That’s his problem not yours.
      5. You are not his soul mate; you are his fuel mate and you can’t save him.
      6. All is fair in love and war in his world. And when you unloaded on him he got some excellent challenge fuel.
      7. You did nothing wrong so you have nothing to feel guilty about.
      8. He is an abuser not you!

      Did this help?

      1. Morning sun says:

        Oooh I love the phrase ‘fuel mate’!

        1. K says:

          Thank you, Morning sun!

          I liked it too; we are just “suppliers of fuel”.

      2. ava101 says:

        Me too. 🙂

        1. K says:

          Thank you, ava101!

      3. Caroline says:

        Yes, that really helps, K. 🙂 Thank you so much for taking the time to do that. I’m going take each of these items and write out everything that comes to my mind regarding each item. I need to start digging into and catching my errant self-talk.

        I don’t think it sounds weird at all that you didn’t feel guilty, for all the reasons you describe. I think my guilt is over the top, and especially unhealthy in regard to the narcissist. He’s no doubt helped condition this along in the 3-year FM, but I’ve always been hard on myself in this regard.

        Thank you, thank you! You’re a darling. 🙂

        NC Day 4
        Updated Status: Travel Agent K Intervenes/Today’s Guilt Trip Canceled.

        1. On my journey says:

          Flying executive class to NC country , that is a good one ! It is like a strawberry field but … not the type of strawberries Narcs gets tired of … :))

          1. Caroline says:

            Oh, that reminds me, “Journey” — avoid flying First (Executive) Class. That’s where all the Greaters are!

            Better to huddle with the masses in coach — sure, there’s a decent chance of picking up the stomach flu or pinkeye, but at least we won’t end up sitting next to (gulp) Greg.

          2. On my journey says:

            @ Caroline ok then let’s fly private – we chose who gets to enjoy our presence !! :))

            Enjoy day 5 fully and stay in NC country – I visited it for 10 days and still benefits from it!

            Maybe I will join you there in due time !!

        2. K says:

          My pleasure, Caroline, ha ha ha…. you are a riot!

          NC Day 4
          Updated Status: Travel Agent K
          Intervenes/Today’s Guilt Trip Canceled.

          It’s all good.
          Tomorrow: NC Day 5

          1. Caroline says:

            What? I have to do this again tomorrow?? LOL.

            But seriously, this reboot of NC is much yuckier. It’s so true that it’s not enough to just passively listen to them/be hyper-aware of what they are/be smart about everything. They own a game with no rules, and they will seep into your inner being, somehow. I don’t want another reboot of this chaos!

            Yep, I need to stay NC, no matter what he does. I really don’t have the stomach for this Machiavellian game. Literally, I’ve lost my appetite.

            Thanks for all the support today, women. I will be stronger tomorrow. (Oh, and thank you too, HG, as you loom over us somewhere in Greater Moderation-Land).

            Night-night. 🙂


          2. On my journey says:

            @caroline …. woke up to your comment. Very touching … I think this is not your first NC? Not a judgment , but do I interpret correctly that it is harder to implement after having tried before ? When you have time .. if this si the case , I am interested in your perspective about it.

          3. Caroline says:


            You are correct! This is not my first NC rodeo. 🙂 I was in a Formal Relationship with the narcissist for 3 years (I was in college/saw him on weekends/my breaks). If you go to the recent poll HG did on infidelity, Jenna asks me a question on that thread, in response to my first post on there, and my answer to her is significant, in terms of my relationship with him/how he got control of me emotionally. Anyway, it became an increasingly controlling, unnerving relationship/he wanted us to get married, and I loved him (had no idea he was a narcissist), but I just did not want to, nor could, handle any of it. I called it quits and finally escaped…

            So I moved (far away/with my job) and then the guy I was dating after the narcissist was the one who finally got the narcissist off my tail. So years pass, and the narcissist starts calling me again, but after speaking politely but firmly to him a few times, I stop returning his calls… then unbeknownst to me, he gets married.

            Guess how I know he gets married? Three days after he gets married, he calls me… to tell me he got married (WTH?) — and then tells me that he made a big mistake — and I’m the only girl for him. He asks if we can get back together and says that he will change aspects that upset me.

            I was in such unbelievable shock. Who does that??! (Ok, narcissists do). I was not flattered. I was pissed!! I felt unbelievably sorry for his poor wife.

            Almost done catching you up to my drama… my work is calling me away today, but I shall return to write the conclusion to this nuttiness (and since I’m an empath, my return won’t be filled with chaos and calamity). 😉

            NC Day 5
            Logic: Firmly in place
            Emotional status: Happy!

          4. K says:

            Good morning, Caroline

            Day 5

            If you have any problems, just come here and vent, talk or think it through.

          5. Caroline says:

            Thank you, sweet K!

            Day 5 went well. I’ve way calmed down. The biggest thing currently stressing me out is a cell I use that’s related to my work. He has the number, and there isn’t much I can do about it… but I’m now shutting it off as much as I can. It’s a small thing, but it makes me feel better. It’s largely symbolic. OFF means he’s blinked away. 🙂 (I’d put a cute “I Dream of Jeannie” YouTube on here for kicks, but I’d just give “Sir Tudor” more to do).

            I feel much more clear-headed/strong today, and so much of that is due to my empathic sisterly support.

            Thank you, thank you!:-)

          6. On my journey says:

            @ Caroline … your story is quite a thing and I do have had many thoughts today on how pervasive and intrusive he really has been and how strong and resilient you are and have been in so many ways.

            Day 6 ahead – I will send you my super empath vibes – keep the focus and alignment on your path.

            Big kisses and hugs from me xoxo

          7. Caroline says:

            Aww, thank you so much, Journey. Your loving comment made my day. Another empath (a Super one!) thinks I’m resilient. I’m a little bit proud of myself.:-)

            I wrote you a lengthy conclusion, so I’m sure it will be stuck in moderation a pretty long time. (I’m sorry about that, HG. I’m done yappin’ now).

            Thank you so much, Journey…I’m always here for you, too!:-)

            NC Status: Day 6, Coming Soon.
            Mood: Still Happy!

          8. On My Journey says:

            Also I will go read the whole story so you don’t have to repeat yourself more than you have already. At one point later – when you feel you want to do it without inflicting more pain to yourself – you share on how the subsequent escapes are more difficult.
            I am curious HG … have you wrote about that escalation or difficulty level of repeated NC?

            Not judging Caroline situation and how she feels now but I would think there is a NC fatigue and also a lost of credibility – out Narc feel he will get us back again because we went back ?

          9. K says:

            You are welcome, Sweet Caroline (Good times never seemed so good) Neil Diamond.

            NC day 6
            Mission Possible

            1. Step away from the phone; keep it off.
            2. Keep calm and eat pizza.
            3. Focus on yourself.
            4. The more you keep up NC, the stronger you will feel.

            Mission control, Empath K signing off: it is an honor to offer my empathic sisterly support. Godspeed!

          10. Caroline says:

            I love that song!:-)

            1) It’s off! I love staring at it and thinking, “Haha–you can’t reach me!” So mature, I know.
            2) Strange, I feel like pizza tonight…
            3) I’m sorry – what were you saying? I was thinking about myself. lol
            4) That is so true. I can’t wait to get three months under my belt again. After that, it practically felt like it never happened.

            Thank you, Mission Control! We do not yet have a problem.:-)

            XOXO, K!

          11. K says:

            NC Day 7

            Keep calm and avoid zombies.

            Remember if you have a weak moment, come here and work it out.

            Good luck!

          12. Caroline says:

            You’re so unbelievably cute. No zombies today. I’m sick in bed. You people are my entertainment this afternoon. Dance monkeys, dance!:-)

            RAITBL (Rolling Around In The Bed Laughing).

          13. K says:

            Awww…thank you. Being sick stinks but, on a positive note, you get to spend all day on the blog. Be strong; tomorrow: day 8.

          14. Caroline says:

            I know, right? I have a fever and throat is killing me. So I’m eating a strawberry popsicle, and all I can think is I really should BE strawberry ice cream by now (only HG followers would get that), and so I reflect on why am I not… And then, as I do work in bed, I smile as I glance at my pink phone occasionally (yes, really, it’s pink), which has been turned off all day (winning!)… and – well, hey, look – here comes K…oh, and Bubbles with the Toms…lol.

            It’s all good.:-)

            Testing my emojis:

          15. K says:

            Oh, yeah I am familiar with that old adage of familiarity breeds contempt.
            Nothing wrong with getting a little taste of chocolate, blue moon, lemon, and plain vanilla. Yummy! I really do love strawberry, though.

            It is a trifecta of Toms, if you include Shawn’s “Tom”. Beware, narcissistic tomfoolery abounds!

            Keep calm and drink NyQuil. NC Day 8.

          16. Caroline says:


            Gawd, I’m even sicker today. I’m gonna blame-shift this onto “The King.” He made me so pissed that I had to call him up in the middle of the night to yell at him. Then I was running late and left the house with my hair still slightly wet. All HIS fault!

            NC Day 8 is (sickly) but Great~
            Today’s Menu: banana popsicles, yum!

          17. K says:

            Day 9. Hope you are feeling fine, Sweet Caroline.

          18. On my journey says:

            @ Caroline … i was thinking about you last night as my emotional thinking was starting to ramp up because of a texting bit and quasi silent treatment.

            I would have love to have a chat :)) .

            I was on the verge of doing silly things – but I went on the blog and read all the articles on silent treatment and went across old comments from you and others and it helped me keep quiet and not reach out to him- which has proven to be the right thing to do.

            As HG told me again … and again … when I slide – it is always because of my emotional thinking.

            It is always because I think like an empath or more like a vo-dependant and not like someone dealing with an entitled person …- great sense of entitlement .

            Again HG knows what he is talking about – my greater excellence ( lol) has showered me with I miss you and you are fantastic virtual morning shower. Lol.

            So to your question Caroline … how addicted I am ?

            I have a man I have seen a few times than he left the country for work for a couple months – he is back in 2 weeks and wants to see me. He is not a Narc – I have tested him. I am looking forward to it.

            So .. enough about me

            Enjoy your NC9 ;)))

            Keep calm and blog on :))

          19. Caroline says:

            Good going, Journey! You did exactly the right thing, coming on here and reading about the Silent Treatment (otherwise known as “Adult Timeout,” lol )

            Yep, never respond to a Silent Treatment…and this is when staying busy (mentally + physically) is the best thing. If you feel yourself starting to slip (as in text/call/go see him), get out of the house, even if just to get groceries and leave your phone behind for awhile… or, if you need it for safety, at least shut it off.

            Hmmm, a “normal” man, coming to see you? I like the sound of that. 🙂 Not even necessarily for a romantic relationship — but it’s just nice for you to be able to converse and breathe and relax. I like it! 🙂

            NC Day 9

          20. On my journey says:

            @ Caroline and yes since then he has been calling me-long calls every day – came to see me and even called himself my boyfriend today … ahaha

            Before I would have hunted him down

            They really are something …
            By reading the articles on topics we can appeal to our logical brain faster than a conversation with someone who has no clue how a narc is wired

          21. Caroline says:

            K~So, cute~the rhyme! I’m still sick. This is a bad virus. On the positive side, if I die, I break the narcissistic contract…

            So I win! I win! I win! Yippee~~~~

            Oh, wait…:-(

          22. On my journey says:

            Happy 9 … going to 10 !!! Bravo :))

          23. shawn says:

            Tom called this morning; I didn’t answer. However, I decided to call him back and try to nip his calling and texting once and for all. Folks, here I go again (for those who have been following)

            Tom: I called you several times and texted you, why you not answering my calls? Me: I’m busy.Tom: Too busy to answer my calls? Me: What’s Up? Tom: So I can’t take you out to dinner? Me: I told you that my father told me……

            Guys, this is when Tom displayed those narc signs. He got verbally loud trying to defend himself with his migraine excuse. I could hear his temper rising. Inside I was laughing, because everything I’ve read so far of HG’s come true to light with “his” kind. I remained verbally emotionless. I knew he would ask if I was going to the bar tonight, and he did. My instincts were telling me that he wanted me there to embarrass me in some way. But, I previously decided I was going to stay away from that bar.

            Anyway, to get him to calm down, I mentioned how my Aunt once had a migraine, blah, blah, blah and turned the conversation back to how his migraine must really get the best of him. He juiced (fuel) it all up. That was my exit excuse. “I’m at work now; I’m already late, got to go bye.”

            I hope him not seeing me tonight will make him back off. From what I gather he appears to be a lesser and might be dangerous.

            As much as I dislike HG’s behavior, I do appreciate HG and what he is doing. A few months ago, I would have been caught up in yet another entanglement. Again, thank you to everyone on the site who reads, replies, and post their stories. One day at a Time. We will get there. Now if I can only go no contact with the mid-range. I must be a narc magnet.

          24. Caroline says:

            You lost me at “I decided to call him back.”


            You can’t nip anything by responding!

          25. K says:

            No way is he going to back off. You are full of fuel and he is going to keep salami slicing his way in. Based on what you are writing he may be a ULN. Keep me updated. TYIA.

          26. NarcAngel says:

            H.G Tudor. Giving salami a bad name since 2015.

          27. K says:

            Ha ha ha…Day 10, Caroline! Do NOT break the narcissistic contract, just go with the NC.

          28. Caroline says:

            On My Journey:

            Hope you see this… the comments are all screwy on my device right now…

            Ok, so to wrap up: after the narcissist called me about being married but wanting me back, I made it clear that was not going to happen. He *seemed* to get the message, so some more time went by… and then I only heard from him a few times, and it was just a quick “how are you” thing… until about a year ago, I get a call on my voicemail, and he sounds just awful (like he’s depressed), so I called him back… he tells me he’s getting a divorce — regales me with tales to make his wife sound like a total psycho (am sure she isn’t) — and so I try to be a friend to him for 6 months, as he calls me on-and-off through the divorce, just to let him vent.

            But then he started saying and doing such odd (narcissistic) things (yes, this is even possible long distance, over the phone)…made me finally realize something was truly not right with him — distrusted his motives/questioned everything — which lead me to HG’s site. I quickly realized he’s a narcissist (A ha! light bulb moment! Mind blown!)… and also realized that somewhere along the way, my ex-BF had decided I’m going to be his next wife (unfortunately for me, I truly think it was his plan all along).

            So I went NC for a considerable amount of time — but broke it when he started to come unglued when it dawned on him that no, he couldn’t just drag me off to get married, lol…he started really upping the ante, to the point it scared me…so with some input from HG, I was postponing NC for a bit, to ease him off me more slowly. But back to NC now.

            Is this NC worse? Well, the first NC was after the Formal Relationship, but I had no idea I was dealing with a narcissist. That was awful because I loved him, and it was like a very bad breakup. The second NC was awful, because his narcissism has gotten so much worse (honed his skills), so he pulled out all the stops to emotionally mess with my mind. Who wants to be manipulated into thinking you are the reason he’s never loved anyone else, including his wife? Even though I know he’s a narcissist, it is not fun to have that blame thrust on you. So now this third Reboot NC is also awful, because I feel like I am starting over to dim down all the new things he said to mess with me emotionally. When I had so many NC days, it was great. I felt back to normal… well, back to empath. 😉

            Here is what I have learned/encourage: Go NC as soon as you can — and try not to let anything stop your NC. The longer you listen to them (EVEN when you know all their tricks), the longer it takes to dig out. They infect you. It’s real. I did not think he ever could again… he certainly didn’t infect me like when I was in a formal relationship with him, but he did still cause fear, unease and some pain. Oh, and guilt!! That’s what he’s caused in me the most.

            I hope something in here helps. I’m here to support you, any time!!:-)

          29. On my journey says:

            Quite the story Caroline and a lot of food for thoughts in your last post.

            Thank you for this .

            Funny my Narc called yesterday and I was seeing all the techniques and manipulation , all the moves and intent , yet still he found the right approach and words to keep infecting me.

            I was thinking to myself “ before HG ( there is a Before and after “ I would have fly – I would have been full of hope etc but I réalisé in want you are saying that even if we know it is still a risk that we get infected furthermore.

            I have a greater elite at the top of his art – he knows what he is doing and he is very sincere sometimes which mixed things up even more.

            Thank you Caroline and happy 6 day NC!! By the way I don’t think I am a super empath – I have not studied the empath types yet but I am a co-dependent –
            Confirmed :))

          30. Caroline says:

            I know exactly how you feel, Journey. It’s just impossible to think like they do, so we really can’t match it. I attempted to “Machiavellian” him back (not a wise idea), and although it was a bit fun at first, he quickly picked up on any changes in me and would just switch it up to something else…. it became exhausting! My brain was frantically thinking on so many levels, just to keep up… what he was saying — what it meant, narcissist-wise — what HG would advise me to do, etc.

            He called me after a cocktail party, and he even noticed the slight pauses before I responded to him. He said, “What is the matter with you tonight? I’m buzzed, and I’m still paying more attention than you are.”

            I gave it up. It was simply too much.

    2. SMH says:

      Caroline, I feel like your story is mine. I won’t get into all of the details, just to say that I have done NC for up to 6 months and it still has not worked. We’ve gone 8 months without seeing each other. Makes no difference. For them it is as if we are frozen in time, never mind the head games. I often feel guilty too and also for calling him names, but over the years I have accused him of just about everything (most recently telling him he is a sociopath and speculating about his childhood) and it MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. It is like water off a duck’s back because all he ‘hears’ is the fuel. Any apologies are just more fuel. Do not feel guilty. It doesn’t matter what you say or do to him – nothing positive matters and nothing negative matters. It will all turn out the same. You have no control over it because you don’t exist for him.

      1. Caroline says:

        Thank you for that, SMH. That spoke to my wasted, useless, unwarranted guilt.

        I am very glad I did not apologize. Fuel + more contact=Feeding

        I’ve been feeling a little desperate to make him stop this, but that thinking is no good. I need to focus on my best NC and realize I just can’t control what he does. I just follow what HG says. Say nothing. Walk away. Do not respond. He gets bored very easily, so he WILL eventually get bored. He needs fuel, after all!

        THANK YOU!!:-)

        1. SMH says:

          You’re welcome! Yes, follow what HG says, though it is not so easy, as we know. I just asked HG yesterday if I should follow my impulse to try to help mine. Haha. Of course the answer was no. Just realize that your barbs don’t matter so neither does your apology. Go what is called ‘grey rock.’ Dead boring. No fuel. He will eventually disappear, though he will never go away. I swear mine is very close to becoming a pest. I can see it getting really ugly.

          1. Caroline says:

            This will sound ridiculous, but doing “grey rock” is unbelievably hard for me. It’s like I CAN’T stop being me — it makes me sweat just thinking of trying that again. Pretending to be like a grey rock is so exhausting and stressful. It’s upsetting to my whole being, like someone is asking me to be a bunny or a fish, and I can’t. I can’t really explain it more than that — I realize it shouldn’t be that hard! So NOT talking to him at all is the only way.

            What I really, really (seriously) don’t get is why he is still after me like this. It has never stopped totally, like you said. I’m truly sorry for you, but now I know it can happen like this. He gets plenty of fuel other ways, with his career and a ton of other “high achievement”/”head of everything” places, etc + huge fuel network…and I am NOT an easy target. I am exceedingly resistant to being with him again. Like pain in the a** resistant. He has plenty other woman fuel options, much easier AND (most importantly) where he lives. It doesn’t make sense.

            All can figure is I have become his permanent “should have been” IPPS/Wife model – so he’s stuck on it. I have to accept I won’t get it. I just do HG’s program.

            Logic, cold logic. NC.

          2. SMH says:

            Ha. I had to laugh. I refer to myself as my narc’s alt-wife (I was/am also IPSS or whatever the mistress is – inadvertent on my part). I also feel that he is stuck and I don’t get it either. Mine is also a high flyer + has a family. I am older and have a higher degree. I am really, really difficult. I’ve always asked him what do you want with me? There are plenty of women who would be with you. But to no avail. Maybe the more difficult the better. Maybe I represent things that he hasn’t been able to explore in his current life. Maybe you do for yours too.

            I know what you mean about grey rock. I’ve never tried it myself. It feels rather yucky to contemplate. I’ll never be boring! But I’ll bet it works if you can do it.

          3. On my journey says:

            My Narc’s ex wife is getting helped I am sure . She can’t absolutely go NC but she is gray rock all right and that is really funny the comments he is having about her. He is telling me a story and he says «  well at least you are honest you respond » my ex wife did not say anything – no comments.

            She is very secretive and she does not reply on anything – it’s like she does not care anymore … and he goes on and on. I always think «  gray rock »

            I am glad she is getting help – sometimes I hope she is on this site and I have so much respect for her – I wish I was able to talk to her – but I am not of her cast … she would not speak to me – although she waved and smiles when she pass by us.

          4. Caroline says:

            I actually thought about playing along with him, to a certain extent, to tone down the “hard to get” aspect… then I thought: “Whoa, tone down the crazy, Caroline — you’re starting to freak out the ghost of Manson.”

            I mean, that would just be asking for it… no way was I trying that! I only thought it for a minute or two.

          5. SMH says:

            I’ve tried but I am no match for him. While he helped me to grow, his brain is wired completely differently and the game exhausts me. I am somewhat scared of him. I hope his wife gets help one day. I don’t know her but I know enough to know that she is abused. I think he wanted me to tell her because he wanted the drama of triangulation. But every time I got a whiff of it, I stepped away, which frustrated him. Everything he does is about creating drama because he is bored.

          6. Caroline says:

            What you wrote is wisdom… and I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing to have a healthy fear of him. It helps you stay disengaged. I think we all should be “somewhat scared.” I certainly am!

  25. On My Journey says:

    @Caroline… You had me laugh alone and I must say that I have lived through you something I always wanted to do. Scream out in such a violent way, same violence a narc is able to have.

    You had me laugh to because I hear HG’s british voice all the time, I even wonder if he is tall and dark or red hair blue eyes and muscular.

    In any case, we all have good reasons to postpone NC and when we do it assisted with someone like HG or a therapist that understands Narc abuse we can learn a lot about us through it and also it gives us the opportunity to test certain things, certain triggers.

    I did stayed while I was under treatment for that very good reason, test if my therapy was working. Stay in the storm and stay still and get triggered. It has been a fantastic and painful experience. So many times I wanted to take the phone and scream like you did.

    I am still NC and I have my reasons too. I am aware that my emotional thinking can play games with me but with this blog and HG’s help, I know that I will be better armed to face NC when the time comes.

    1. On My Journey says:

      I meant I am still in contact – involved now – Word Press is driving me nuts

    2. Caroline says:

      Thank you so much for your kind reply, “OnMyJourney.” I’m so glad the blog is helping you too, and I sure get there can be times to postpone NC. I hope things get easier for you and you can totally break free. Oh, and happy to yell at my narcissist in a vicarious way for you. 😉

      As for the “Jolly Good Brit” (HG), I do have a few facts for you, from comments I recall on threads. He has blonde hair and blue eyes (I distinctly remember this, because when he stated it, an empath said he should be concerned someone could identify him by his giving this description, and he had a funny reply that, basically, said there are enough blonde-haired, blue-eyed people in this world to not worry about it, GOL).

      I also know he stated he is tall…I remember this because there was some debate on the thread on how tall was tall — and I think that rather irritated him. I mean, he’s not going to be a giraffe, so I think he made a good point — he’s tall — most people can grasp the concept. LOL.

      1. K says:

        I think this may be the funny reply you were referring to, Caroline. It is located on Narc Angel’s letter.

        HG Tudor
        JANUARY 17, 2018 AT 17:00
        Yes because being tall, blonde and blue-eyed really narrows it down doesn’t it?

        1. Caroline says:

          Yep, that’s it, K! Wow, you’re a magician.:-)

          1. K says:

            You are welcome, On my journey! Now you have an audiovisual of HG!

            Thank you, Caroline, I was able to remember because I wrote the comment regarding the description about HG and jenna was the concerned empath. His response was quite funny.

          2. Caroline says:

            Yes, he’s a very funny guy~~lots of entertainment!

    3. K says:

      On My Journey

      HG is 6’ 1” with blond hair and blue eyes. He is a Gen-Xer, however, 3 fresh souls a day keeps him looking like he is 22.

      1. Caroline says:

        LOL~Cute, K!:-)

      2. On my journey says:

        @ Caroline and K – thanks for details now I have a voice and a mental picture !! Oh emotional thinking … get away from me !! Lol

        My logical thinking is slowly visiting me more and more my Narc told me many times that I was not logical enough… too emotional :))

  26. Caroline says:

    You know what their return is like?

    It’s like this:
    He becomes infatuated with you. You can’t shake him, and when all else fails in winning you back, he starts to mess with someone in your life that you deeply care about… so you totally lose it, after a year of remaining calm through all kinds of continual narcissistic ploys and startling shenanigans. You’ve HAD it. He’s not going to drag other people into this! You can feel rage coming on…

    So you grab your cell and ring him up in the middle of the night, yelling at him the moment he answers. Then you hang up. Then you call back again, to yell some more. What’s that? You call back a THIRD time, and as you hear yourself yelling, insulting and swearing, you think: “What is happening?? I never act this way! And why is he just remaining quiet and staying on the line, let alone continuing to take my crazy calls?”

    It’s then — in the dark, bleak, wee morning hours — that you hear HG’s calm, steady, British voice in your head: “Caroline, you’ve lost all sense of logic. Your emotional thinking has taken over. Step away from the phone. All you’re doing is providing him with plentiful fuel. The NC Postponement Plan is no longer an option. Buckle up, buttercup. It’s NC time.”

    So you quietly hang up the phone.

    NC Day 1.

    1. Caroline, that was fantastic – I’m laughing so hard I can barely breathe, let alone type – thank you for that!

      *creating my own imaginary HG voice recording just like yours – great idea!

      1. Caroline says:

        Aw, thank you, Miss Nuit Etoilee! As a branch-off empath (“The Lucille Ball Empath” category), I figure I need to make my fellow empathic sisters giggle from time to time.

        But seriously, I sometimes *can* hear HG in my head… and he’s the ONLY narcissist who is welcome in my head!

        P.S. Despite all I have learned about narcissists, they are still so unexplainably nutty to me. After waking up — yelling at — and calling this narcissist “f—– stupid” about 6 times (I was ragey emotional and unable to be very imaginative at the time) he still tried to call me today. Really??! Hungry for more?! That is just the weirdest thing ever to me… but I’m sure a mighty awful punishment is coming my way.

    2. K says:


      That was great! My favorite line: Step away from the phone.

      1. Caroline says:

        Thank you, sweet K. 🙂

        And I STILL feel like yelling at him some more! But I’m also ill at ease now… I’ve never yelled at him like that. Felt good, for once in my life… but I (or someone else in my life) will likely pay for it in some crappy way he decides, so it wasn’t wise of me… I can’t imagine him letting that go.

        1. K says:

          My pleasure, Caroline

          I could have written your comment because I did exactly the same thing as you, and I remember thinking: what is happening and how did I get like this?!!! The whole time my MMRN was quiet (fueling up) staying on the line.

          Sometimes, it feels great to rant and rave like a lunatic and don’t feel too ill at ease; you got to vent and he got fuel. He may not let that go but stay no contact and let him figure it out.

          Emotional thinking is powerful and it takes a while to deal with it effectively. Vent here if you think it will help; it worked for me.

          1. Caroline says:

            Thanks for your thoughtful input, K:-)

            After I raged at him like that, I was confident that I’d never hear from him again. I knew he’d mess with my life indirectly — but I was sure he’d never contact me directly again. After all, I called The King “f—– stupid.” That’s just not going to fly. So he leaves, right? I mean, that is just a given! (I know, I know…have I learned nothing from HG? :-()

            But, yeah, I can’t shake the shock that he tried to call me after my tirade — it’s probably more shocking than anything he’s ever done, because it seems like he’s giving in. Narcissistically, that is just weird to me on every single level, and my brain simply can’t handle it. I guess I don’t have to always understand, but it’s hard for me to let things go that I don’t get.

            I wanted to pick up the phone to see WHY was he calling me. Why? Why? Why? I thought if I picked up, it would clue me into his mindset one last time, to prepare myself. But I didn’t fall for the emotional thinking, because I can NEVER prepare myself for him. And when would this ever flippin’ end?! He is (usually) pissed if I don’t pick up the phone when he calls… so now, he’ll be even madder, which I’m guessing will just fuel him into revenge mode.


  27. I Love Cher. She is my Idol after all.

  28. Melissa says:

    The Brutal Truth*💥

  29. RealitySetsIn says:


    Not to be pushy but are you going to have as part 3 book to your series of Narcissist Seduction…..? looking forward to reading it if and when you do.

    1. HG Tudor says:


  30. Kensey says:

    Morning sun- Yes.It was like he collected my dreams, bound them in a book to read to only me.

    1. Caroline says:

      I actually got teary reading your comment… that’s beautifully expressive. Unlike your narcissist, who can’t truthfully express his feelings — he is bound by a script.

      It’s painful, I truly know…. you have to burn the book they read to you — and write your own novel.

      1. Kensey says:

        Caroline’s~ Thank you so very much for your kind words.
        Everyday is a gift of myself back. It helps to come here.

    2. WhoCares says:

      Kensey and Caroline – poignant and perceptive words…yes, we must write our own scripts!

  31. Morning sun says:

    “you realize you only loved them for the way they made you feel during the seduction”

    Yup. Narcissistic love is self-love, on both parts.

  32. You got a little something for everyone on this blog, HG.

    You are truly brilliant.

  33. No thank you.

  34. Lori says:

    You only think you want them to return except it’s like the movie Ground Hog Day over and over and over. You only want them to return because of a chemical addiction they caused in your brain from the love bombing. You don’t love this person. No one loves someone that treats them like shit. Nope in a way are like them in that when devaluation comes you realize you only loved them for the way they made you feel during the seduction. After the seduction is over, they pretty much suck

    1. RealitySetsIn says:

      …..”so put your little hand in mine…..” I got you babe….I love Groundhog Day…..I love Bill Murray one of my favorite actors! Too bad like in the movie Groundhog Day they can’t learn their damn lesson like he did….I think if that happened to a severe narcissist they would never leave Groundhog Day! It would be nice though wouldn’t it.

  35. Melissa says:

    Article….😘!, Picture….👏!

  36. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    I knew this was a “trick” question ….. 😂
    How about the the “permanent” vanishing one …. 😂

  37. Lisa says:

    If only my daughter would read and learn from you HG. There is no convincing others, sadly. Thank you. I enjoyed this piece very much.

  38. W says:

    WHY would you want him to return ?!

    1. RealitySetsIn says:

      That is the question isn’t it? But never the question asked by a person who has experienced a Mid to Greater narcissist. Its not a question because its more of a battle within the victim….its like being Split down the middle….one side wants him….the other side knows he is bad…!
      Sometimes we want him to come back so we can have the opportunity to be strong and ignore him…reject him….make him suffer….get back our dignity….enjoy his begging or groveling…..take back some of our power he stole from us!

      1. Morning sun says:

        “But never the question asked by a person who has experienced a Mid to Greater narcissist.”

        I disagree. It’s not so much about the type of narc you were involved with but whether you are still in the grips of emotional thinking and/or you still haven’t come to terms with the underlying reasons for being in a relationship with the narc.

  39. WhoCares says:

    NE – Everyone in a narcissistic entanglement should have a friend like you; sadly, a significant number of people wouldn’t listen to that friend.

    1. Nuit Étoilée says:

      WhoCares – your moniker becomes the question doesn’t it..? That is such a kind comment. Thank you!

      Another problem w valuing the perception of “the good life”.. No one told me I shouldn’t have run off w my ex husband – 15yrs my senior, but from a “good family” & w security.. and when I left, (w nothing) bc I was miserable, I heard comments like – but why? He had a nice home, good income & he took care of you!

      It took courage to say – I’d rather put up w living w my parents again (it was hard at 25) than be miserable – It was hard & I try not to judge – we really don’t know what all goes on w people..

      The sad part is.. my friend has gone on to find another narc – it has now been 10yrs since the story… and she’s recently been back in hospital.. back then I didn’t know about narcs.. now I do.. and so does she.. she’s a psych professional.. I wish I could do more to help…

      1. WhoCares says:

        Nuit Étoilée – yes, monikers could sometimes tell a story themselves, could they not?

        Courage indeed; for one to stand up to those who would judge so easily – and so harshly – requires immense courage. I commend you in your choices.

        As for judgement…I *try* not to judge others. And when I read HG’s articles that highlight how susceptible empaths are to re-entanglement, I oscillate between “Seriously, give us a bit more credit” and “Seriously. This could happen again?” And then I’m left with the reality that it simply must be that much more difficult for some to cut their losses and move on. For me, and it sounds like for you, it is a much bigger loss (of self) to remain in such a situation.

        When I read your story about your friend I simply shake my head in dismay and disbelief. And then I do start to think: could it happen to me again? I suppose it could…it might…but I don’t think it could for long.

        Someone, somewhere, in the blog comments said for them it was like a ‘switch’ and that once they knew, their empathy towards that person simply switched off and remained thus. I am not sure that I have that kind of internal switch; for me it is more like once the behaviours and manipulations become evident I can no longer ‘see’ the person the same. They become transparent – it is almost a visual thing for me. Imagine, if you will, an animation or film effect where the background of the composed shot is stable and opaque but the image of the person in the foreground, who is going about their business, suddenly becomes translucent and you just ‘see right through them’ – you cannot unsee that. At least *I* cannot. I may not be able to automatically deny that person anymore empathy but I can no longer move forward with the relationship while still pretending I didn’t just witness that…to ignore it creates a ‘twisting in the gut’ sensation.

        And then I’m like: “I can’t buy what you’re selling anymore.”
        Because the cost is too high.

        1. K says:

          You literally ‘see right through them’ – your comment reminded me of the 5 Devaluation Triggers # 3. See Through

          They become transparent – it is almost a visual thing for me.

          Your “spidey sense” is terrific. Many people ignore their sixth sense over and over again to their detriment. I am guilty of doing it too, but not anymore. They should teach 6th sense/trust your instinct in school.

      2. WhoCares – ohhh yes.. lots of stories here!

        Oh, I am quick to judge – definitely something I’m still working on.

        Reading HG, I have no trouble imagining how easy it is to fall under the spell again. I can’t turn off my empathy.. actually, recognizing the symptoms of NPD evokes a strong sadness in me.. but knowing the hurt helps me keep my distance..

        Your description is quite creative – sounds like you’ve learned to listen to your instincts, your “guts” – & you are right – the cost is high.

      3. Bibi says:

        I have a coworker who informed me that he had to tell one of his housemates that he wanted the guy to move out.

        The housemate does not have a job, is always lounging around, he is in his mid 30s and his own mother kicked him out, he is always trying these ‘get rich quick’ schemes but managed to get fired months ago because he could not show up to work on time.

        When I asked my coworker how the housemate reacted to being told to move out, the housemate turned it around on my coworker, projecting his own flaws onto him.

        I don’t know if the housemate is a narcissist, but certainly someone who can’t get his shit together. I have seen this behavior in both victim narcissists and codependents. Always blame others and the world for their problems, yet never taking action to improve themselves.

        I hope this guy never manages to target some empath who takes him in, wherein he will be living on her couch/bed, not paying rent, eating her food, lounging around doing nothing.

        However, from what I have heard, he seems to meet girls and then they go away probably due to the fact he he inundates them with text messages and neediness, thus scaring them off.

      4. WhoCares says:

        Nuit Étoilée and K:

        I wish my ‘spidey-sense’ and/or gut instincts had kicked in sooner…I don’t think they are so well sharpened to handle the ‘golden period’…and I’m not sure I’d care to put them to test in that arena…better to ‘study’ here some more.

        1. K says:


          The Golden Period is designed to anesthetize us as we are drawn into the narcissist’s false reality.

          Instinct? Spidey-Sense? Lost in a euphoric high.

          I was roofied by my MMRN and I am gonna make damn sure it never happens again, so I will be seeing you in the Study Hall.

      5. WhoCares says:


        “I was roofied by my MMRN and I am gonna make damn sure it never happens again, so I will be seeing you in the Study Hall.”

        I just saw your comment now…wow, roofied…I’m sorry…that’s not even remotely fair.

        But yes, off to the ‘Study Hall’ with us –
        thanks for the giggle.

        1. K says:

          You are welcome, WhoCares

          Sorry, I wasn’t very clear about what I wrote. What I meant by “roofied” was that I lost all my cognitive abilities when my MMRN seduced me during the Golden Period. It felt like I was drugged, sometimes, I use the term Mickey Finned.

          And, if you think about it, it still wasn’t remotely fair at all because he tricked me with his fraudulent love/narc heroin. That rat bastard.

        2. Caroline says:

          I didn’t catch that either, K…am so very sorry. Hugs, Caroline

          1. K says:

            From our perspective, you would think that he wouldn’t contact you again, ever, but from his perspective you are a supertanker of negative fuel just waiting to be tapped.

            It is completely understandable to want a rational explanation for his behavior. You are a truth seeker and ET is very, very powerful. His mindset is: 1. Gain fuel. 2. Assert and maintain superiority over you.

            Your mindset: 1. You want the truth/closure/explanation etc. 2. An apology would be lovely (but that ain’t happening).

            There is NO preparation for the narc; he will always win and too bad for him, if he gets pissed. Let him; he is a narc and he will figure it out. Keep up your N/C and if you lapse, don’t stress or beat yourself up over it. You need time to get your ET under control; it took me months.

            As you get better, you will begin to understand how, and why, the narcissist thinks and then it all clicks. The logic takes over.

            BTW, thank you re: the roofie comment but I wasn’t very clear. I felt like I had been “roofied” by my MMRN’s Golden Period, thus losing all my senses. In the future I will put quotes around “roofie” for clarity. Sorry, I should not have been so sloppy.

          2. Caroline says:

            Thank you for your wise words, K. I really appreciate the support. I’m good to go, with NC again. I took a postponement detour out of it (with input from HG), for a specific reason, but now that the narcissist is messing with my life so overtly, there’s no reason to *not* go back to NC. What I feel right now is fear, and I hate admitting that, because I consider myself a strong-minded person. But I’m scared of what comes next. He’s so unpredictable…

            But what am I going to do? Hide under my bed the rest of my life? Not an option. It is what it is… and I *am* learning more about myself through this. I know why I stayed in the Formal Relationship for so long, and it’s really important that I come to grips with that. It’s a painful reason.

            I’m so glad you meant “roofie” in a totally different way. I probably would have understood what you meant if I wasn’t so stressed out by The King. I find that when I’m stressed I’m not concentrating like usual and am much more distracted… oh, look! A squirrel!!

            What? What was I saying? Where am I again?…


            NC Day 3

          3. K says:

            You are welcome, Caroline
            oh, look! A squirrel! You crack me up! I had trouble concentrating too. It felt like I was in a fog all the time.

            Sometimes, I wonder why I stayed in the FR so long; I think part of it was conditioning. Those pesky narcs like to meddle with N/C and it is ok to be afraid, follow your instincts, be cautious and lay low until the storm blows over.

            Did you learn the reason in your consult or did you just know what it was? Do not answer if you feel uncomfortable; I will understand.

          4. Caroline says:

            I’m imagining HG reading your post and thinking, “Yes, why don’t you go ahead and answer that, Caroline? Did you learn that in a consult? Go ahead and answer K. Can’t wait to hear this.”

            Uh, no, K…I didn’t learn the reason why in a consult. I learned it like I seem to learn everything — the longer, harder way — by myself. Lol;-)

  40. Patricia J says:

    The good news here is when u get to the point where they cant make u..want them any longer.

  41. says:

    Mine came back after 3 months. He left me for another girl. But he came back. But after a month of falling in love with him all over again, and things were just like they were in the beginning, he told me I was to buy him a truck. When I said no, he left me again, for that same girl. They’ve been together a little over a year now. We have been in contact here and there, b7t I truly believe they are fighting right now because he is realky trying hard this time to get me to do as he says, and telling me if I do, we can be together again. But I refuse to be controlled and he’s not liking it. He’s accusing me of being a whore, he’s accusing me of having a boyfriend, he’s accusing me of lying, he’s calling me names and so on. It’s only making it easier for me to get over him more and more. I will admit, I tried so hard to get him back up until this point, but now that he’s acting this way , i don’t even want him back. His bitch of a gf can have him!!! He’s now threatening me, but i dont even care at this point.
    I wish I could post all his messages here just so you all can see…. it’s sickening

  42. SarcNarc says:

    Nice picture!

  43. I would like to share a story w you.

    I have a dear friend I have known for nearly 20yrs.. We met when I had just divorced, and she began dating a powerful lawyer/barrister.
    I was her only friend who stated my dislike and distrust for this man – bc he reminded me of my ex-husband – prob a narc, in which I’d lived the Stepford Devaluation situation, and told her.

    Time passed, their relationship was tumultuous, but both she & he were strong-willed, independent people, and demanding – each in their own way. At one point, she even brought me over w my boyfriend when there had been quite the row, and to be honest, that afternoon, listening to them both, I could see both sides…

    He proposed.
    She asked me what I thought.
    I was her only friend who said – I wouldn’t marry him. I cited the fact that he tried to control her (and I didn’t know much at the time).

    They got married.
    The wedding was an elaborate affair, various receptions, jewellery, gifts, it was quite the social occasion. She then set about extensive remodelling, while working to finish her studies… I knew things were stressful..

    I got a call from her about a year later. Things had exploded, there were threats, and finally she moved out – with nothing. All I remember was that she felt ashamed somehow, but it was him who had receipts for “gentlemen’s entertainment” among other things she’d discovered.

    To say the subsequent divorce was bitter would be a massive understatement.. and of course it was drawn out.

    As a result of this stress, my friend ended up in the hospital – a young, healthy woman, overcome w let’s say – heart attack type issues – for no apparent reason… and yet, every time I talked w her, she would still wonder if she’d done something wrong, not enough, or could have done something in a different way that would have made things better – turn out that happy ending.. and still wanted him back…

    1. K says:

      It is baffling, Nuit Étoilée. I have a friend (empath) who let’s narcs treat her badly/manipulate in an NISS capacity. She knows what they are and allows herself to be hoovered again and again and then complains about it. WTF.

      1. WiserNow says:

        That’s true K, it is quite baffling. Even when it’s blatantly obvious, the co-dependent or empathic person will prefer to believe and trust in their illusions and hopes more than they will in the reality before their eyes.

        It makes me think that the biological way our brains become wired is so instrumental in how we behave and how we think. Our earliest past experiences seem to be stronger and more influential to our behaviour than the real-life situations happening to us at any point in time. Until real life is so unbearable that it jolts us awake. I’m not even sure if everyone “awakes” after receiving this jolt though.

        It takes effort and practice to become conscious of living in the present moment, and to analyse the origin of your emotions, and to be consistently self-aware. The application of cold, hard logic and self-centredness does not come naturally to an empath. It takes awareness and education.

        Cold, hard logic does come more easily though, when you consciously decide to turn your own empathy towards your self.

        1. K says:


          I couldn’t agree more. My empath friend gets this wistful, starry-eyed look on her face and her eyes tear up as she talks about how the neighborhood narc children really love each other (they don’t) and she feels bad because they don’t have a mother to love them (mom lost custody), they are so kind and play so well together (they behaved like little psychos). She is delusional.

          She only believed me after they stole a kitchen knife, carved up one side of her car from front to back, then one of them pulled down his pants and flashed his ass and penis while his brother called her fat.

          A single mother recently moved into the neighborhood (I met her and new right away she was a narc: body language) and my empath friend is being successfully hoovered even though I warned her.

          She refuses to be in the moment, self-aware, or analyze any behavior using cold hard logic.

          One of the boys was cruel to her dog and I tried to tell her and she said, “Stop! I don’t want to know.” and then she started crying. She puts her own children and dog in harms way. It’s gobsmacking.

      2. Yes, K.. baffling.. frustrating.. painful to witness..
        – and keep in mind, this is a friend who, when I told her about my narc, made oblique references to not giving away my “power” & being manipulated (*I had yet to discover HG) but didn’t tell me what she really thought – but she did recognize my addiction & the lovebombing – she was trying to be gentle, and having lived that, I understand her better.. but I cannot act for her.. so difficult..

        1. K says:

          Nuit Étoilée

          It is painful to watch. I want to be Cher from Moonstruck and slap my friend and say, “Snap out of it!” I have to disengage from my her to save my sanity, sometimes. I have NEVER met a more emotionally-out-of-control person than she. She is a hot mess! She refuses to see the abuse in front of her face. On a positive note, both her husband and sister see “it” for what it is and are on my side.

    2. Bibi says:

      Thank you for sharing that story, NE. It’s so important for us to share experiences as those, as they help to drive home the idea that it never ends well.

      Another cloud in our emotional thinking–that we are above it. He would never hurt me because unlike those from his past, he genuinely respects me because I am exceptional. He told me so.

      Bollocks! (One of my fave HG expressions.)

      1. Glad you appreciated it, Bibi. I think that is absolutely true – it never ends well.

        But you ARE exceptional 😉 .. just don’t expect a narc to recognize that!

      2. shawn says:

        Bibi, I agree that it is important to share stories. Thanks to HG I am more aware and cautious. I don’t look at men the same. When I try to tell my friends bout narc signs they push me off and say “You are really into this stuff. You think everybody is a narc.” Yet, I believe we all have narc tendencies, however, there are levels of extreme. I remember HG discussing something to this effect.

        Everyone’s story is so powerful and painful. Sometimes I have the desire to be with my narc again, but I remember that I am somebody too and I matter. That type of relationship is abusive and I don’t want to believe my self-esteem is that low that I have to be in an abusive relationship.

        We lived before that person came into our lives and we will continue to keep living after that person leaves or has left. Time is a healer!

    3. RealitySetsIn says:

      poor thing..:(

  44. Dearest Hg,
    “b. Your turning white is usually as a consequence of someone else in our fuel matrix turning black and thus you have no control over that happening and when.

    Furthermore, you may become painted white but you can soon become black very quickly and you have little control over how that happens.”

    – so our turning black is not necessarily bc we wounded the narc?
    meaning, if something newer & shinier turns up (even if we are white) we could be deemed black bc we pale in comparison? Or even simpler – as w devaluation (& is deval a kind of turning black?) – it can happen simply bc the narc perceives our fuel to have become stale, decreased, etc?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Thank you for helping me understand you, Hg.

        How do you know that your interpretation of how you live your provision of fuel (how it makes you feel, its necessity, etc)
        is what the other narcs (of all schools) live?

        – have you ever discussed this with another Greater?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It arises from numerous discussions I have had with my kind.

  45. shawn says:

    Very good post HG. I agree on so many levels and I’m surprised because I agree with you.

    As I was reading your post, I thought, getting the narcissist back takes up to much time, and in return the other person get’s ABSOLUTELY nothing, but more HEARTACHE, and PAIN!

  46. Krista says:

    Almost there…. reading and reading more and I’m healing. Thank you so much, honestly

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