The Emotional Battle – Part Three

THE EMOTIONAL BATTLEPART THREE.jpg

 

When you have been discarded, you face three battles in order to secure your freedom. The first is the Emotional Battle which you always lose until you learn not fight it. The second is the Heart V Head Battle which must be fought many times until you finally overcome the powerful effects of emotion and allow your cool, hard logic to dictate. Once that battle has been won, you have managed to navigate a way through the emotional ocean and then you have reached dry land on the other side. This is where the third battle is joined. This dry land provides you with a firmer foundation and just like the discovery of the New World, boundless opportunities. You are no longer prone to the vagaries of the swelling and dramatic ocean of emotions. That is not to say that your emotions have been switched off. Far from it. Instead, the solidity of this land is a reflection of the greater control you now have over your emotions as you ally them with the logic that you have regained. No longer do you feel overwhelmed. You are not beset by anxiety. Fear does not maintain a near permanent grip on your stomach. You were repeatedly drowned as you tried to swim the emotional ocean alone in the first battle. You saw yourself swamped and capsized on numerous occasions as reach time you increased your intellect and understanding as you built larger and more seaworthy vessels until finally you navigated your war through that broiling sea of feelings and now you stand on firm, dry and solid land. Your critical thinking has increased, your sense of calm has bloomed and you have gained greater control.

You stand before a land of opportunities and this is where you are now able to make the decisions. In the previous two battles you were overwhelmed and then often on the back foot. Here, in this final battle, you have the opportunity to seize and maintain the upper hand. You have so many choices available to you now.

You may decide to build a large tower and secrete yourself inside. You have the sturdy foundation now on which to construct this edifice. You are safe and secure high up in this tower. You admit visitors but only those that you know can be trusted. Occasionally you hear a knock in the dead of night. You make your way to the balcony and look down from your towering height to see us stood outside knocking on the door and seeking admittance. You may feel the surge of those emotions once more but you have greater control now. You may call out and wave, issuing a polite greeting and no more. You may decide just to turn around and leave us to our ineffectual knocking. Either way in this battle you have seized control and you are far better equipped to make rational decisions which suit you and prevent you from being wholly governed by those turbulent emotions.

You may decide to forge ahead and seek out new adventures in this land. You meet new people and form fresh and lasting friendships, perhaps even finding someone with whom you can share intimacy and romance. As you trek through this land, gathering new friends and revisiting those who were conned into severing the ties with you, you remain vigilant for out of nowhere we might appear. We might strike, lurching through a crowd hurling insults. You are better armed this time and able to shield yourself before moving away, refusing to be drawn into responding and a war of words like you once might have done. It may be the case, as you embrace these new horizons that we appear, smiling and benign, sidling up to you and taking you by surprise. The risk always remains, for if you are abroad within this new land, you cannot place yourself behind sturdy defences. Thus, you remain exposed to ambush and approach. You remain better equipped than you were, as a consequence of your gathered learning, your increased understanding and ongoing recovery. You are in a better position to rebuff the ambush, refusing to engage and making your departure to safer ground. Sometimes you may be caught and those emotions wash about you as we try to haul you back across the sea to a time when you were alone and going under the lashing waves. This risk always remains.

You may opt to establish an estate where you do not take refuge in some tower, but instead you create a place of familiarity where everyone is known to you and you are known to them. You have your supporters in clear view and whilst you may not tread down the path less travelled in search of new territories you reduce your risk of us appearing out of nowhere. These familiar places enable you to maintain clear lines of sight so that if we do make an appearance you are able to take suitable evasive action.

This final battle takes the form of repeated skirmishes as we seek to catch you unawares and drag you back to an earlier battle where our prospects of success are maximised. Sometimes we succeed. Sometimes one of our devious ploys catches you unaware and we scale your tower and appear on your balcony like that once desired Prince Charming again and your defences are breached. Other times you repel our approaches, turning your back or cutting us down with new learned techniques which force us to withdraw. You may see no action for weeks, months and even years as new reaches you that we are fighting on other fronts, seemingly content to leave you be. At least for the time being. Then out of nowhere you may reduce your vigilance and we are by your side, seeking to snake our tendrils around you once again. In this final battle you now know what to look for. When we march on to the battle field you see and take heed of the red flags which stream behind us. You have learned methods by which you can counter and neutralise our manipulations. You have established safe territories to which you might retreat if the need arises. You have fashioned your own armoury in this new land of hope and promise. You now know how you can wound us and now, exerting greater control, you do so which gives us no option but to disengage from the skirmish and skulk away to lick our wounds and regroup.

This final battle takes place in a land where the battlefield, for the first time, is more of your choosing than ours. You have better equipped to fight this battle and whilst there remains a risk of defeat and you being ensnared once again, it is far less than in the previous two battles. You are battle-hardened and those scars are worn as badges of honour as you stand tall for the first time in, well, you cannot recall when that last happened, but it has happened at last.

Thus, this is the final battle post discard. The battle that takes place on dry land. Should you overcome the first two battles, this is where you will find yourself. Now you understand where you will end up as you deal with the fallout from being discarded. Now you are aware of what will happen, what to expect and how you are in a better position to keep winning the skirmishes in this final battle. This only leaves one question remaining. How long will this final battle last?

It will continue until one of us no longer lives.

119 thoughts on “The Emotional Battle – Part Three

  1. Caroline says:

    That’s epic HG. Thank you.
    Now, the final battle 3.2, “how to get N-mother’s voice out of your head without talking to yourself in public”.

    Cue news reporter: “psychologists this week have announced the discovery of a little-known affliction called “Narc-mother Tourette’s” where sufferers randomly say “shut up mum!” and “f*** off mum!” to themselves. …more on that later”

  2. Susanna Paterson says:

    Your final line was mistaken, HG. There was only ever one of us alive in the first place and it wasn’t you.

    1. LYNN says:

      yes Susanna being controlled by the need for fuel is not true living though I know having confronted my beasts of childhood my life is also squewed but i would like to think real and trying too hard sometimes to do the right thing for people.

    2. SuperXena says:

      Hello Susanna Petersson,
      I can understand why you consider them as “dead” (because they are completely devoid of certain emotions as love, happiness, joy etc).

      They are very much alive and with a limited range of emotions: https://narcsite.com/2018/07/12/5-myths-about-the-narcissist-3/

      Furthermore they are not just alive but are highly vulnerable .

      This same susceptibleness ( to i.ex criticism ) with the resulting deep-rooted intense narcissistic wound is what is underlying this narcissistic behaviour.

      I do not state this as an excuse for their behaviour( which I personally believe it is not ) but rather to point out that they are far more vulnerable than one can initially believe.

      1. Windstorm says:

        Superxena
        I agree with you about their vulnerability. Their entire self concept is a lie they have constructed to try to hide who they really are inside. They react so violently to what they perceive as criticism because they are so afraid of others seeing the reality of who they are.

        1. SMH says:

          I agree too, Windstorm and SuperXena, but I find it hard to accept as an excuse, especially when one tries to be open and tries to help and tries to make things safe. There is only so much an empath can do and only so much an empath can take. I told mine that it was above my pay grade to figure it all out for him.

          HG, I admire you for getting therapy, even if you were forced into it. It must be really, really hard for you to face your demons and turn it all into something productive and positive.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you.

          2. SMH says:

            You are welcome. A creative mind is one that has suffered.

          3. SuperXena says:

            Hola SMH,

            I completely agree with you. I do not see this vulnerability as an excuse for their behaviour.

            Abrazos

        2. SuperXena says:

          Hello Windstorm,

          Thank you for your comment.
          Trying( and very hard) to see it from the “outside” I have been comparing the susceptibility /vulnerability of the empath vs the narcissist.

          How do you see the difference between them?
          I see them as following:

          The empath’s vulnerability :
          -Is not a weakness

          – It becomes a weakness when the empath allows the feelings to take over , to seize them completely. (emotional “illiteracy “?)To be the master in control.

          – When emotions take over endangers them(and their inner self)turning them to be a target for abusers. But the empath has a true(inner )self.

          -It is not a survival strategy it is an innate ability to feel

          – It is what connects,bonds them to people

          The question is: where does this emotional “illiteracy” come from? When was the ability of not allowing the emotions to control lost? Is it genetic or due to external factors or both?

          The narcissists vulnerability :
          -is a survival strategy ( deployed either consciously or unconsciously ) , a defense mechanism

          The question is :

          Is there something under the narcissist ‘s shield/ construct to be hidden, a true (inner )self?
          or is there nothing to hide , a complete nothingness a void under the construct? That is to say is the narcissist the construct itself?

          Well, this is my embryonic theory about vulnerability.

          How do you see this? Open for exchanging ideas!

          Best wishes.

          1. SMH says:

            Hola SuperXena, I know you don’t think the narcissism excuses the behavior. Sorry for my wording.

            I think you are onto something with the idea of a ‘core’ and a ‘void.’ I have thought the same. What is under the hood? Could it be nothing? Scary thought!

          2. SuperXena says:

            Hola SMH,
            “I think you are onto something with the idea of a ‘core’ and a ‘void.”

            Scary indeed. Worth to try to find out( as a narcissist)?

          3. SMH says:

            SuperXena, He was so quick to put that narcissistic wrapper on that I couldn’t tell. Sometimes I thought he had one and sometimes not. I guess he did since he didn’t kill anyone, as far a I know :-).

            In the end, you know what I did? I apologized to him for any hurt I caused. The last thing I said to him: ‘I am really sorry if I hurt you.’ Why? Well, I very well might have hurt him, even though he could not process it…and I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night if I didn’t take that possibility into account. I am not angry at him as a vulnerable person. I am angry at his actions over the years.

          4. SuperXena says:

            SMH,
            “…and I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night if I didn’t take that possibility into account. “
            If that was cathartic for you and you needed it , it was good. As long as it stays there for you, no more contact.

            “I am not angry at him as a vulnerable person. I am angry at his actions over the years.”

            Angry at them for being what they are I am not either. I neither feel pity nor sorry for them.

            Angry at the whole situation of how it turns to be over and over and over and over again …the same result for them regarding their romantic relationships ( and for the ones they get entangled with).Yes.

          5. SuperXena says:

            SMH,
            Talking about scary to find out about what is behind the construct peeling away all the layers:
            – if there is nothing ,does that mean the narcissist would collapse ?would it be possible to build up another (different ) construct? Or does he cease to exist?
            -if there is a true self what ‘s to be done then?

          6. SMH says:

            SuperXena, I am not sure it is possible to get to the point where one would find out. The armour is so strong, the logic so water tight. I call narcissism a ‘membrane’ that covers the person inside. But it’s like if a tree falls, does it make a noise if no one is in the forest? If there is a person inside does it really exist if no one sees it?

            My narc could be tender and intimate but he would immediately switch to stranger mode/distancing. I once made a therapist’s appointment right after a lovely morning together (on a weekend, rare because of IPPS). My son was asleep in the next room, so no hanky panky. Narc wanted to meet him – this from someone pathologically secretive and noncommital.

            In a normal relationship, that time would have indicated commitment and bonding. But it scared me because I knew what was coming. Hence, the therapist. And indeed, it all backfired spectacularly when narc raged at me for the very first and last time a few days later. He might as well have pushed me over a cliff. He apologized but not with ‘I’m sorry.’ Instead he said, ‘it’s not your fault.’ I couldn’t forgive him and I grew cold and pulled away.

            The best time we had together was therefore the end because he could not be intimate or admit (to himself) that I mattered. It is the same as if he has no intimate bone in his body and nothing matters. There is no difference between someone who feels but cannot show it and someone who does not feel at all. It is impossible to know that person. Even IPPS doesn’t know him (I think I know him better, to be honest). A narc is alone in the world and won’t let anyone in at all, so there can’t be anything there.

          7. SuperXena says:

            SMH,
            You may receive this comment in duplicate.I believe the first one did not go through.

            -“But it’s like if a tree falls, does it make a noise if no one is in the forest? If there is a person inside does it really exist if no one sees it? “

            Would a narcissist rather go through life ignorant of this not even trying to find out even though he/she knows it may exist and that it may even be a better version of him/herself?

            -“My narc could be tender and intimate but he would immediately switch to stranger mode/distancing. “

            I can relate to that one : from cold to hot. Part of the reinforcement of the addiction. I send you a link in case you have not read it https://narcsite.com/?s=Hot+and+cold+

            – “once made a therapist’s appointment right after a lovely morning together (on a weekend, rare because of IPPS). “

            I am not following you in this one. Did you go to therapy together with him? I went to therapy many times with my ex-narc( I was the IPPS 6 years of a Greater-as I have been told) without any results. As a matter of fact it worsened the situation ( for me)instead. Therapy together with them is highly is contra productive .

            -“Even IPPS doesn’t know him (I think I know him better, to be honest). “

            They are always mirroring remember?

            With you , he is what you want him to be( and lets you know what he needs you to know) .With her (or others) he is what she ( they) want/s him to be and lets them know what he needs her/them to know. It depends on what facade he has built up to you or others.

            “A narc is alone in the world and won’t let anyone in at all, so there can’t be anything there.”

            I believe you are referring to the void, the emptiness.

            -“There is no difference between someone who feels but cannot show it and someone who does not feel at all. It is impossible to know that person”

            I am afraid I have to disagree with you in this one.Although in both cases exon the outside the behaviour is the same ( not expressing emotions) there is a big difference on the cause and the intent being the impact very different.

            I have worked very closely ( something aside my profession) with children ( 8 to 15 years) with diagnoses as Asperger,ADH,Autism.Their behavioural codes are somewhat different than a narcissist. The issue being to separate these diagnoses from NPD and to state that is one or the other ( or a comorbidity) .

            It requires a lot of observation ( for years) and research.

            “It is impossible to know that person. “

            Nobody knows what they are.

            And the ones aware of their condition:Do they really know what they are?

            I have not been very attentive to your story( I have not been attentive at all here lately) : could you give me a briefing?

            Abrazos.

          8. SMH says:

            SuperXena,

            I am fascinated that you work with Aspergers/autism!! But see, you were IPPS to a greater narc and did not know it, right? Sorry for that but it is a tough one to figure out. If one is IPSS, as I was, there are even fewer opportunities for insights into the narc’s existence.

            I went back and forth between Aspergers and narcissism for ages and did a lot of research. In the end, a wounding (fragile ego) and a few other things (lying, deliberate manipulation, shelving etc) led me to narcissism. My son (totally normal) has an autistic half brother. I diagnosed him when he was 2. I am pretty sensitive to communication issues because of my profession (not psychology but still with people, and I am a researcher). That is how I picked up on your voz de bruja, right? 🙂 Narc might have some Aspergers – for instance trouble with figurative written language, rigidity – but that is not the main problem.

            I did not take narc to therapy. That was just for me because I was preparing myself for blowback. It was like bracing my neck for whiplash. IPPS took him because she had caught him cheating and kicked him out, but wanted to reconcile (before I met him – I think we met during this period). I was probably candidate IPPS, devalued (but not discarded), triangulated with IPPS (I was away during this whole period), then became IPSS perfectly willingly. I never wanted to be IPPS.

            If IPPS knew he had a personality disorder she would never have tried therapy, as you know from your ex-narc. And of course it made no difference…the patterns did not change. He simply learned new tricks. You know how that works and so do I because of all the research I did.

            He wanted to meet my son, so he didn’t completely compartmentalize. In fact he accepted everything about me. He only criticized me once, but that was the beginning of the end because it was unfair, it scared me (rage), and it was about his unwillingness to share information. Ridiculous. I had another affair many years ago. I knew which issues were personality issues and which were about the affair. In the end, I told narc that he was a psychopath and that I was afraid of him.

            Anyway, don’t worry about my story – just to say that it went on for two years through me not knowing about IPPS (but suspecting), leaving, becoming IPSS, etc. I left four times, once before I even knew about IPPS, and I think now this is the final escape.

            Our pattern is that we fight (always virtually, never in person, and always instigated by me because of how he treats me – shelving etc but never a silent treatment), I leave, we go through NC, one of us reaches out (usually me because I think we can be ‘friends’), he seduces me back, and so it goes. This time I saw the pattern and resisted.

            I am not struggling as much as before because of this site. But I did not find it until post-escape, so I pretty much figured it out on my own. I am filling in the blanks and confirming my suspicions. ¡Me has ayudado mucho!

            Abrazos

          9. SuperXena says:

            SMH,
            Yes, it is fascinating working( as a teacher) with those kids. It is something completely unrelated to my profession but it has broaden my perspective( to a less judgemental one) witnessing how these kids struggle to “fit in” not being fully aware of what they are yet but still feeling they are different.

            -“ I went back and forth between Aspergers and narcissism for ages and did a lot of research. In the end, a wounding (fragile ego) and a few other things (lying, deliberate manipulation, shelving etc) led me to narcissism”

            Yes, the cause and the intent varies between them although there is some crossover of certain traits ( comorbidity). Therein lies the difficulty of establishing a determinant diagnosis.

            -“He wanted to meet my son, so he didn’t completely compartmentalize. In fact he accepted everything about me. “

            I understand the concept of compartmentalisation differently from yours. I believe is more like putting you into a compartment and not letting you know anything about other compartments that belong to him. Not the other way around:
            For them the more you let them know about you and your world the better for them to exert more control over you. The less you know about their other compartments the better to preserve their control ( over their life) and not letting you jeopardise it maintaining consequently their sense of superiority.
            https://narcsite.com/2015/12/17/compartment-store/

            -“ am filling in the blanks and confirming my suspicions. “.
            This is exactly the aim ( for us) of this site. You will realise that all the remaining pieces of the unresolved puzzle( that kept you stuck and blind) will start to fit one by one.

            You are welcome SMH and muchos abrazos.

          10. SMH says:

            SuperXena,

            He put me into a compartment but not entirely. He knew I knew all sorts of things and he would talk about his kids, work, siblings, IPPS. The thing was, I couldn’t ask. I had to wait for him to tell me. He never used anything he knew about me (a lot!) to try to control me. He only used against me my need for him to plan and not keep me waiting/guessing all the time. He refused to even try, it became a bone of contention, and it drove me crazy.

            I think I was his fantasy away from his ‘regular’ life. I just couldn’t do his version of fantasy.

            After I escaped he asked for a lot of help/support from me as he was transitioning from one job to another. He listened and he respected my opinion. It wasn’t until I inadvertently wounded him post-escape that he grew cold and distant.

            I think of compartmentalization as more of an emotional thing – that is, you put your feelings into a compartment so they don’t seep into other parts of your life. That is quite common in an affair, and men are particularly good at it.

            Did I compartmentalize? Maybe – I certainly did not feel like myself!!

          11. SuperXena says:

            SMH,
            Just as a curious fact ( and nothing related to the narcissist ‘s compartmentalisation) there is another concept of that in psychology:

            “Compartmentalization is a subconscious psychological defense mechanism used to avoid cognitive dissonance, or the mental discomfort and anxiety caused by a person’s having conflicting values, cognitions, emotions, beliefs, etc. within themselves.
            Compartmentalization allows these conflicting ideas to co-exist by inhibiting direct or explicit acknowledgement and interaction between separate compartmentalized self states.” Wikipedia

            Abrazos

          12. SuperXena says:

            …this process expresses to a great extent what happens when one is in an abusive relationship having these internal struggle of feelings and beliefs about the abuser but still staying….

          13. SMH says:

            SuperXena, Maybe it was abusive and maybe it wasn’t. I don’t know but I think you are reading too much into the fact that I spent (spend) a lot of time trying to figure it out..it was more that my curiosity got the better of me – who was this martian who took over my brain? Why was I reacting like this? etc He was not violent or controlling, he didn’t try to isolate me, he never insulted me, he only criticized me one time, etc. He was very sweet when we were together. It was really only after I escaped that things got super difficult and it became a battle. I think he had really weird issues with women and maybe that made him abusive, but I am pretty in your face and it’s hard to keep me under control. If you read here about super empaths and mid-range narcs, that is exactly what happened.

          14. SuperXena says:

            Hola SMH,
            I do not really know how he was towards you. There are many ways of being abusive…abuse (according to me) is when someone crosses repeatedly your personal boundaries . Some of them are very subtile in the way they abuse.

            -“He was not violent or controlling, he didn’t try to isolate me, he never insulted me, he only criticized me one time, etc. He was very sweet when we were together.”

            If he had you as an IPSS he wanted to have you around with the aim of “promoting” you later on.?That may explain his behaviour when you were in a relationship with him.

            When you left him, he started to show you his “real”side.

            -“. I think he had really weird issues with women and maybe that made him abusive”

            SMH, I do not want to speculate because I do not know the exact information about you and your case ( and even if I knew it, I am not really an expert).

            If he has had issues with women isn’t it more likely that he has been abusive and that is why he has had issues with women?. I do not think that having issues with people turns one person into being abusive (according to me).

            Are you doubting if he was abusive or not? Do you think he is being abusive now?
            Are you doubting if he was a narcissist? If you believe know he is a narcissist he has always been one.

            What I am telling you now is based on what I have learned here, from own experience and in you case just based on the little I know.
            You should really consider a consultation( if you haven’t) if you feel you are stuck in your process.

            Buena suerte!

          15. SMH says:

            SuperXena, I have to laugh. Sorry. It’s just that I am probably crazier than he is, albeit in an entirely different way. I am much more independent and experienced, I am older, my degree is higher, I am more volatile. He makes way more money and travels more, but he was really fascinated with my lifestyle and history, with my freedom.

            We shared an addiction to adrenaline and to each other. We shared a risk gene. We also have similar backgrounds, though we took very different paths in life. It was easy for us to talk to each other and find commonalities. We had the same one thing on our bucket list. It was all real, not mirroring.

            I did not want to be promoted to IPPS. I had just left my marriage and didn’t want another full on relationship; he and I have different value systems and really different ways of being. He is air, I am earth; he is in the world, I am of the world; he is very left brained and I am very right brained. He needs the stability IPPS provides and the life that in many ways is perfect for him. I liked living alone after my exH. I have a career that is very rewarding, though I could leave tomorrow and be fine. I work half-time and live in two world cities. My kid is independent. I was not interested in changing anything. I told him – I cannot give you what you have – I cannot provide that structure – that is your family. I am not.

            Instead I tried to give him what he appeared to be missing, which is what I wanted too – intellectual stimulation, affection and erotic exploration. I thought he would be happy when I told him I was fine being IPSS, but he wasn’t. He went all quiet. It confused me that I gave him what he said he wanted, our chemistry was off the charts, and he couldn’t just accept it. It was almost like it was so easy that he had to twist things and disrespect me to keep control and that fuel pouring out. That is what I learned here.

            My guess is that he wanted me to want to be IPPS, even if he never thought of promoting me (I don’t know) because he wanted to be able to triangulate me with IPPS. He wanted me to be jealous. He wanted me to fight for him. He wanted fuel from that and I took the possibility away.

            Was he abusive? I guess so. And I am definitely convinced that he is a narcissist. But then I wasn’t firm with my boundaries. I was exploring.

            I accept that he took advantage of all of the qualities that HG lays out here – optimism, wanting to fix things, etc. But when I escaped, my own narc qualities came out and I abused him the way he had abused me. I was furious but not about the FR. I was furious that he gave me a silent treatment post-escape when I was trying to be friends.

            That is why I am shocked that he is stalking me.

          16. SuperXena says:

            SMH,
            I understand what you mean. Although the school of narcissist and the position in the fuel matrix is different from yours, I can relate a lot with the process of escaping and the provision of both challenge fuel ( not being able to control me) and negative fuel ( my extremely angry reactions when provoked).

            1. “We shared an addiction to adrenaline and to each other. We shared a risk gene”
            The addiction is present on both parts in any relationship with a narcissist being more intense if it is a romantic relationship.
            As for the risk gene…I definitely can relate to that one. Being attracted to danger is the drive motor of some to get into this type of relationships. (Healthy? Probably not in the long run).

            2. “ . It was all real, not mirroring.”
            And now I am questioning you: are you sure about that? How can you possibly know that?

            3.”That is why I am shocked that he is stalking me”.
            My guess is that he is still stalking you because you are providing him with challenge fuel by not doing what he wants( wanted) you to do. You are challenging his superiority, his control.
            That game I know: I “escaped” several times, he hoovered me back ,back and forth, back and forth…Therein lied the potent fuel for him( challenge fuel). That was his game. Until the game( for me) ended: I escaped for good and moved on.

            4.”I was furious that he gave me a silent treatment post-escape when I was trying to be friends”.

            That one I can relate to as well. It reminded me of something he said one of the many times (attempts) I “ended “the relationship :
            “ …And if you think you can be friends with me now, forget it.That will never happen”.
            That wounded him ( me trying to be friends instead):
            -because I was telling him what to do.
            -because you are either with them ( as they want you to be) or not. Nothing in between.No grey zones. Either I was with him as he wanted me to be or I was his enemy.I did not have a say in that decision (under his perspective).

            So with his silent treatment he is probably trying to punish you because ( under his perspective)you wounded him .
            I believe you are on the right track towards the right direction: being free from him and from the thoughts about him.
            Keep on.

          17. SMH says:

            Buenas tardes SuperXena,

            No, not healthy – that gene. A similar thing happened many years ago. That guy landed in jail (nothing to do with me). Not a narc – probably borderline. When he got out two years later, he called but I was done.

            17 years later MRN mentioned a provincial city in a developing country that no one else I know has been to. It was the city Borderline and I spent all of our time in. I contacted Borderline and we are now friends. MRN knows the story and asked if I loved Borderline. I said I didn’t think so. I think MRN thinks I am flighty (I am) and not good IPPS material, so I was never in line for promotion – just shelving! 🙂

            I know MNR was not mirroring because most everything is verifiable and he did not have to seduce me. I was very open. I’m not questioning why I got involved with him. I am just questioning what he is, why he did certain things, and what he might be thinking now.

            Like yours, he not accept being friends yet he initiated all of it (hoovers). I’d respond lightly. One day I teased him because he was demanding a lot of attention. Wounding and ST followed and yes, he was trying to punish me. I got really upset and ripped him to shreds (I thought – haha).

            What happened to you with the escapes and the hoovers is exactly what happened with us. It’s all a game. MRN thinks I’ll be back and is letting me know that I am powerless. I’ll just let him continue to think that…

            Apparently, I also never have a say! What I want has never mattered.

            Abrazos

          18. SuperXena says:

            ** driving force ( instead of driving motor)

          19. SuperXena says:

            SMH…just adding :”abuse (according to me) is when someone crosses repeatedly your personal boundaries “ : something that narcissists constantly do.

          20. SuperXena says:

            and SMH I am very glad that you escaped. That is really strong of you.

          21. SuperXena says:

            SMH,
            Ha,ha now that I am reading my own comment, I can answer to myself the question:

            “Would a narcissist rather go through life ignorant of this not even trying to find out even though he/she knows it may exist and that it may even be a better version of him/herself?”:

            The narcissist believes that he/she is the best and only version of him/herself….

          22. SMH says:

            I wonder how much any of us can change, SuperXena. A lot of it is genetic. For instance, my son has his father’s temperament, which is completely different to mine. He had it from the day he was born and he has not changed one bit. Of course he doesn’t need to (it’s a lovely temperament, unlike mine) but what always struck me was how he was who he is from day one.

            My narc once said to me (mutual decision to end it), ‘all I can do is try to be the best person that I can be.’ Six months later, we were back to square one. He had given IPPS a long golden period while I was away, and was then ready to resume.

            It is hard for anyone to permanently change. Partly, I think, because we are all comfortable how we are and have learned to navigate the world that way. One of the things I found most stressful about being with narc was being who he wanted me to be. Two years of it was enough and in the end I went supernova. I feel much more whole without him.

          23. SuperXena says:

            I completely agree with you SMH. I do not think a permanent radical change is possible in anyone.

            I still think though that as part of evolution and the constant changes in the surroundings ( not just referring to environmental but social, cultural, political , biological …..etc.) make us need to readapt and modify ( behaviourally and biologically )as a mean of survival. The world is in constant change, all the time.

          24. SMH says:

            SuperXena, Yes and I am very able to adapt and modify. That’s what I was doing when I was with narc. You know that one has to be socialized to do that because you are multi-cultural (in the true sense) and you’ve lived in many places. So am I and so have I. But I still think there is a core person and that radical change you speak of is impossible.

          25. SuperXena says:

            SMH,
            I agree with you. I actually said that a radical change is not possible!
            “I completely agree with you SMH. I do not think a permanent radical change is possible in anyone.”

          26. windstorm says:

            SMH
            This is just sort of an aside on one thing you said. I have strong feelings on the old, “of a tree falls and no one’s there to hear it, did it make a noise?”

            I had a narc cousin explain to me once, that he didn’t think that anyone really existed if he was not interacting with them at the time. So if he wasn’t looking at me, talking to me or something brought me to his mind, I didn’t exist for him. Maybe I existed for other people who were with me at the time, but for him – no. Therefore it was ridiculous and unreasonable for me to expect him to show up somewhere that I wanted him to, even if he said that he would, because as soon as we separated, i would cease to exist and have zero importance to him.

            Now I thought that this was the stupidest, most self-centered thing that anyone had ever said to me. I’ve come to realize, however, over the years that it was very honest on his part. But it has totally answered the tree falling conundrum for me. Yes, those trees still exist and yes, they still create sound waves, whether there are any narc ears to hear them or not. 😄

          27. SMH says:

            LOL Windstorm, Very honest! But it’s a lie. He’s a narc after all. Mine once said to me (IPSS) ‘I do think about you when we are not together.’ I said ‘I know you do but I don’t much think about you – I mean I do in an abstract way but I don’t wonder what you are doing or who you are with. I hope you are having a nice weekend or whatever, but I don’t think about it.’ Hahaha.

            I knew that he thought about me because it’s common sense. If he did not think about me, he would never contact me, come back, hoover, stalk, all of which he did/does. He said that to me because he wanted me to THINK that he NEVER thought about me and he worried that I never thought about him because I never asked about his life because he would get all weird if I did. It was twisted branches – oops, I mean bravado.

          28. windstorm says:

            SMH
            I’m not sure about that. While that’s probably true in some cases, I really think that they don’t think about us at all until we enter one of HG’s 6 spheres. You say “it’s common sense” but that’s common sense to us. They don’t think and reason like we do. I have no doubt that my cousin doesn’t ever think about me unless something reminds him. I have no importance to him and truly don’t exist for him unless I pop up on his radar.

            All the narcs I know are that way. They don’t sit around wondering what we are doing or thinking, “oh, she wanted me to meet her, I need to be sure to be on time.” They are just rolling with the flow, going in whichever direction at any moment that gives them the most fuel.

            They hoover, stalk, etc. when their fuel levels are low and something reminds them of us and our potential fuel. That’s all. Other than that, we just imagine that they think of us.

            They do want to believe that we think of them all the time, true. But that only makes sense since we only really exist in their presence. To the narcs, our whole existence is in relation to them.

          29. SMH says:

            But Windstorm, thinking IS the 6th sphere. They could go from fuel to no fuel to fuel again all within the course of an hour, every hour, every day. They could conceivably be thinking of us all the time without us doing a thing.

            Your cousin probably doesn’t think of you because you are not a good source of fuel for him, right?

            But if it is a romantic entanglement their actions indicate that they do think about us. That’s what I meant by common sense. The evidence is there:

            Mine only canceled once for better fuel but we had not seen each other for four months at that point because I was away. I gave him a silent treatment after he canceled – did not answer his emails even though he was in my city for a few days.

            A month later he contacted me 3 hours after I arrived back to our city after a 5 month absence. Where are you? He asked. He knew where I was, he knew when my plane landed – heck, he probably tracked it on radar – because he had asked me for that information a few months previously. He only pretended that he didn’t know where I was. Total bs.

            I believe they think about us all the time if it’s a romantic entanglement. They can even get obsessive. They act dismissive and do not show it because it makes them look ‘weak.’

          30. windstorm says:

            SMH
            At the time my cousin told me that, yes I was a regular fuel source for him. Maybe I have never felt any of my narcs were thinking about me often because I have never been in a romantic relationship, but even so, I doubt they would think much about us.

            I think it’s more likely we would assume they thought about us because we thought about them and it just seemed right to us. I’d think at least the lions share of times we think our narcs are thinking about us, that it’s just wishful thinking. If they tell us they were thinking about us, then they are lying.

            I’ve known an awful lot of narcs for many decades and I’m pretty confident that when we are apart, they do not think about me – unless something triggers a memory or they need something from me. It’s just been made so clear, so many times over the years. My husband never just thought about me like I would just think about him. He never just wondered what I was doing, or called just to talk when we were apart. Neither did my mother, my father, my sons or my other relatives. Even my narc friends only contacted me when it was obvious that they wanted something from me.

            That is my experience, though. Maybe your narc is different.

          31. SMH says:

            Windstorm, I want to add that I do know what you are saying. On many occasions I THOUGHT he couldn’t possibly be thinking about me during our many periods of NC. But then he would slip, and I started to find signs of online stalking, etc. It might be out of anger, frustration or whatever, rather than emotional attachment, but there it is. I will never again believe that a narc just forgets about you if you aren’t in front of him.

          32. windstorm says:

            SMH
            Ah, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this. I feel very certain that all of them totally forget we exist when they don’t need us. The smarter ones may be scheming and plotting for fuel by stalking and laying traps online, but that’s more like setting out fishing lines or small animal traps and not checking them till the next day. Yes, of course they thought when they put them out and they’ll think when they check them. But the rest of the time it’s like we don’t exist. Not until they notice that we triggered the trap.

          33. NarcAngel says:

            Windstorm
            Great analogy, and one I believe to be true. Constantly checking the myriad of traps to ensure the fuel remains steadily flowing, but not with any of the snares being regarded as an individual or In the way the empath imagines.

          34. SMH says:

            I feel like I am in a long, elaborate game with MRN and that is why he is stalking/hoovering. It follows a pattern not of my making because of course I do not have any say in how things go. Only he does.

          35. Windstorm says:

            Superxena
            I believe all people have an “inner self.” Narcissists are just afraid of theirs because it’s not all powerful and invulnerable like they want it to be. Their inner self does seem rather childlike, but I think that’s because they’ve been denying its existence and hiding it for so many years, instead of growing and developing it. This just reinforces its weakness and makes them more determined to hide it behind a façade.

            I agree that empathy is not a survival strategy. It is an innate characteristic and how we interact with others.

            Empathy and emotional thinking are two separate things. One can be very empathic and logical at the same time. We are born with empathy. We learn logic.

            In our culture we tend to pair off logic vs emotional thinking, But logic is really a more Western concept as opposed to a way all humans reason. Eastern cultures are often not logic based. They reason differently.

            Logical reasoning was supposedly from the ancient Greeks and so spread through Western culture. So I guess we can either thank or blame those Ancient Greek philosophers for logic being considered superior to other ways of reasoning in our culture.

            You have made me start thinking though. While I have been taught logical reasoning and can do it. It is not at all intuitive with me. Now I wonder if my attraction to Eastern thinking like Reiki, Chakras and Buddhism may be at least partly due to my strong empathy and how it colors my thinking.

          36. SMH says:

            Interesting points, Windstorm. I think of ‘logic’ and ‘rationality’ as relative concepts. When HG refers to ‘logic,’ for instance, I think of it in relation to how a narcissist would think. It is not logical to an empath, but it is to a narc. It is as if empaths and narcs are two different cultures with their own ‘logics.’

          37. NarcAngel says:

            When logic is discussed here, I take it as reasoning with fact and not emotion, and not specific to narc or empath. HG has on many occasions instructed people to use THEIR logical thinking over emotional thinking so thats pretty clear, but people have different ways of applying logic it seems. It reminded me – StepNarc was big on yelling: “use common sense!” When I innocently (but intentionally) replied: “whose?” he was furious. I was hoping he’d get so mad he’d have a stroke, but then I should have known he’d never give me what I wanted. God, what a waste of molecules he was.

          38. SMH says:

            NA, But you captured it with your response to StepNarc. Whose common sense? I think it’s the word ‘logic’ that is problematic.

            Emotions are facts. Surely if I am upset it is a fact (it would be if you saw it!!). This blog seems to describe an empath logic based on emotional thinking as well as a narc one based on the need for fuel. All narcs think the same way and all empaths think the same way. They each have their separate ‘truth,’ if you will. Sure there is some variation within each group, just as there is in any culture, but the patterns are there and those patterns are logicS – empath logic, narc logic.

            It seems, then, that there are two ways of thinking and acting, both of which are logical. All narcs know empath logic because they study it – otherwise they wouldn’t be able to manipulate us. We empaths need to study narc logic, which is what we are doing here. When we use our logical thinking we try to put ourselves in the narc’s shoes and understand their worldview. HG is teaching us a different logic rather than logic per se. It makes no more sense to us than Aztec sacrifice but to Aztecs, sacrifice meant something ‘true.’

            It’s kind of like the way Trump and anti-Trump people talk completely past each other. They both have pretty solid logics that make sense in the context of their own world view. One side does have a better grasp of ‘the facts’ but the facts don’t really matter to logic the way I am thinking of it.

            It all makes me pretty pessimistic that a) narcs can change; b) the US won’t sink into another civil war.

          39. NarcAngel says:

            SMH
            Haha. Well I WAS mocking Stepnarc (with a completely straight face) which amused me to no end but also fed into his believing he was superior, so it was a win-win. Yes, I guess its the definition of the word that is problematic. I understand you are referring to the logic of each specific group and their application of it, whereas I was referring to the general and societal logic of things like: if you put your hand into fire, logic says you will get burned. If you stay in an abusive relationship logic says you will suffer. Now emotional thinking will have you trying to find ways around those things not happening, but generally logic prevails. Its the same with “common sense”. There is again a general or societal “common” sense that people refer to but as you point out, there are variations in thinking. I do love irony, and the irony of a narc (Stepnarc) asking me to use “common” sense to see his point when he thought he was anything but common, shows me his desperation in that moment to fit in with society against stupid little me and still makes me smirk because it was lost on him.

          40. SMH says:

            I see your point, NA, and StepNarc sounds like a real winner, but you also see how his sense was not your sense. Human behavior is fuzzy rather than fact based, in part because we don’t all have the same information and in part because we view information differently. I think that’s where the excuses come in rather than in the fire analogy.

          41. MB says:

            NA, “waste of molecules” 😂

          42. Windstorm says:

            SMH
            My exhusband’s first university degree was in philosophy and mathematics – both based on logic. Since we were already engaged, I ended up hearing about it extensively and typing up all his papers. Logic and western philosophy fit hand in glove.

            I don’t agree that logic is necessarily how narcs think. I know all kinds of narcs that wouldn’t know logic if it hit them in the head with a stick! But what I have observed is that logical thinking comes fairly naturally to many intelligent narcs. Maybe that is because they have less emotions to get in the way.

            Your logical versus rational reminded me of how I used to never understand how my exhusband could be so logical, but yet irrational. One day he explained it to me. He said, “they are two completely separate things. Logic is figuring out the solution to a problem. Rational is actually applying a solution to a problem.” So in essence, he always knew what would be best to do, he just choose not to do it.

          43. SuperXena says:

            Ah Windstorm !
            Thank you for your extensive answer.
            “You have made me start thinking though”
            You made me smile with that one. Isn’t it what makes this interesting?
            You make me think as well ( although it takes a little bit longer translating from my thoughts in my mother tongue to English). Good intellectual exercise both ways.

            1” I believe all people have an “inner self.” Narcissists are just afraid of theirs because it’s not all powerful and invulnerable like they want it to be. Their inner self does seem rather childlike….

            Agreed but I think there is a difference between inner self and true self.

            2. I agree that empathy is not a survival strategy. It is an innate characteristic and how we interact with others.

            Agreed.

            3. “Empathy and emotional thinking are two separate things. “

            Emotional thinking for me is letting emotions to control. Emotional literacy is applying logic in the process of acknowledging an emotion , feeling it and make it proportional to the reality based in facts that support (or not ) that emotion.

            Empathy is not a feeling per se but an innate trait.

            4. “One can be very empathic and logical at the same time. We are born with empathy. “ agreed (see above)

            5. “We learn logic. “ I do not think we learn it. We have it ( as part of the process of the brain) but we learn how to apply it.

            6. “In our culture we tend to pair off logic vs emotional thinking, But logic is really a more Western concept as opposed to a way all humans reason. Eastern cultures are often not logic based. They reason differently.”

            Not so sure. I have to think about that.

            7.”Logical reasoning was supposedly from the ancient Greeks and so spread through Western culture. So I guess we can either thank or blame those Ancient Greek philosophers for logic being considered superior to other ways of reasoning in our culture.”

            I do not so much about this argument so I can’t comment about it. I will do some research.

            8.”Now I wonder if my attraction to Eastern thinking like Reiki, Chakras and Buddhism may be at least partly due to my strong empathy and how it colors my thinking.”

            Interesting argument. I think it definitely does. I find their philosophy very interesting as well and worth to learn more about it not necessarily leading to believe or accept all of their theses.

            Thank you for this interaction Windstorm. I find it very giving.

      2. LYNN says:

        Ha Windstorm we can certainly blame the Greeks they are the worse narcissists, my Narc was a Greek and Narcissus in Greek Mythology as we know is where it all began so they say 😁

    3. SuperXena says:

      Just adding Susanna Petersson:
      I do not state this either because I feel sorry for them because I don’t.
      I do agree though that the ability of feeling empathy ,love, happiness, joy etc.give the possibility of experiencing life in a more enriching and “liveful” way . If these emotions act as “aid” and “assistance “ in fully living life and not as the “ruler”( becoming instead a hindrance) .

  3. Jane hall says:

    The Tower sounds good.

    Post escape – 6 months NC – I look around me and think “well, what am I going to do now”?
    Comes a point when ANYTHING is better than that prison you have been living in.
    And the possibilities and hopes are endless. Yes, there will still be bad days, bad people, difficult times – but I am free. Free – alone, but not alone – I have family around me and friends. And the enemy of my Soul, the enemy who was a devil with a smile on his face – has gone. He may well turn up – that’s why the tower sounds good – though I would go on vacation from the tower – but always have its strength and safety to return to.
    Thanks HG God bless you.

  4. E&L says:

    Dear God, Kill me now! I’m tired! I quit!

  5. Em says:

    I’ve arrived here after almost 2yrs post escape and 10 mths no contact.
    Just re encountering him at work but feeling in control – less emotional roller coaster. Less oxytocin rush. And remembering the learning from HG. I still get that stabbing feeling in my throats when i accidentally let him lock my gaze for a second. But now I know what it is. Nothing.
    My brain has so much more free space now to think and develop – it’s awesome. Still aware it’s never over.

  6. ava101 says:

    HG,
    what do think why it is that an empath can feel a connection right away, like after one date? Like, having feelings for the other person even after just a few hours of knowing him? What do think this is?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Alcohol.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Ha ha. The worst decisions usually begin with alcohol.

      2. ava101 says:

        *lol*, yes maybe the Guinness, the food, and more good things.
        Haha.

        Thank you, Lou. Maybe, yes, the idea …. but I think I _feel_ something, when I couldn’t be really …

    2. Lou says:

      Ava, I would say poor boundaries.

    3. Lou says:

      Also devotion to the idea of love and finding your soul mate.

    4. ava101 says:

      Dear HG,

      (and also interested in feedback from everyone who is into this train of thought, or at least kind of:)

      you know how I keep saying that you are always right, so I did think about your funny answer, and you’re actually right.

      I had written a long time ago about how I think that narcs + abuse can make one addicted, and how I am addicted to dopamine. We had also talked about the lack of oxytocin in certain people (narcs, autists) …
      When I was feeling extremely … like having withdrawal symptoms, one of my go-tos was (is) electronic music which can indeed trigger dopamine, etc. Dancing especially.
      So, the combination, of me listening to that kind or music with guys plus the effects of alcohol etc.; plus other oxytocin inducing activities (like eating together, or holding hands I mean of course 😉 – but actually also dancing!), does make me high and with the oxytocin creates a lasting (!) feeling of connection.
      Someone told me I chose guys who I’d indulge with … not untrue.

      So I can have a good time with narcs and autists, but they don’t have lasting feelings of connection, while I can INDEED create one immediately under the right circumstances, in the combination above mentioned.

      And the feeling of connection comes then not out of a similar mindset, but out of a similar setting, the circumstances of how we have met … :/

      Help, I’m addicted!!

      1. SMH says:

        Not sure what you are struggling with Ava, but there are quite a few posts about addiction here. I posted a very long one about dopamine. I think the narcs and maybe the autistics (?) withhold after you’ve already had a dopamine hit from music, dance, alcohol, them mirroring you, whatever. That is why you feel connected and they don’t, and why you keep going back for more. When you go back for more, you create narc fuel. You are addicted to the narc because of intermitent reinforcement and the narc is addicted to your fuel, which also comes from the intermitent reinforcement keeping you destabilized. Hope this makes sense.

      2. ava101 says:

        Yes, SMH, I know about the narc addiction and that may well be the cause for how my brain chemistry functions. But doesn’t explain instant feelings of connection. What do you mean by “withhold”? I think they do get their own dopamine hit. But not oxytocine for bonding, which is also released through dancing.

        I met recently one narc through dancing, like “connecting” right there on the dance floor, smiling a lot, dancing together then, and he told me, he had danced on for hours after I had left, as I had given him so much energy (…).

        However, the setting did create some sense of connection for me, and narcs and autists feel well, too (I suppose). But they don’t feel the connection. … So, what I feel can’t be real, at least not mutual, and also way too soon anyways, when I hardly know someone. But it is still lasting for me, when I feel I have connected with someone, it doesn’t just go away, but it seems to do so for some people.

        I actually believe that the mirroring alone takes more time to get me hooked, so the setting is really important. That particular narc went on mirroring me full-on on the first date, but I was way more cautious and watching and testing him then.

        Autist was happy and close to me as long as there was music, and alcohol (I don’t drink much if at all, but I might have underestimated how much he had consumed, several times). As soon as that was gone, he said he felt uncomfortable and explained he never ever connected to anyone.

        An autistic friend of mine enjoys going to festivals, too, but also told me how he didn’t easily make friends. It was easier for him there, too and while on festivals he also takes drugs.
        I don’t seem to need that, I get high by the music, by dancing with other people, by “connecting” (or imagining that I was) …

        1. SMH says:

          Hi Ava, I think it’s possible to get high from music and to bond through music too. It also produces dopamine. Maybe there is something wrong with narc dopamine receptors that keeps them from bonding with people. By withhold I mean that they pull away, which sort of pulls you towards them. I mean if you were a child – an infant – and your mother kept walking away, you would cry but soon learn that you couldn’t count on her and it would mess with your ability to bond. That might be an explanation but I don’t think anyone knows exactly…Maybe you bond too quickly if it happens with non-narcs too? Or think you are bonding but it’s something else?

        2. Windstorm says:

          Ava101
          I didn’t respond to your question at first, because my experience is different. Thought I’d throw it out there now, though for a different perspective.

          I often form pretty instant bonds with people – all kinds of people, not just narcs. That’s very common for me. It’s not the setting, like a place or music. There is no dopamine hit, no addiction. I may never even see them again.

          It’s a feeling of a deep commonality of insight or experience. That we connect on a deep level and truly understand each other in that moment in time. From then on (if there is a “then on”) i will always feel a special link or bond with them and i will be able to more deeply understand them and enjoy their company. It is also much easier for me to send them positive energy to affect their mood. It’s sort of like there is a conduit open between us all the time, even when no energy is passing thru.

      3. ava101 says:

        Thank you, SMH and Windstorm! You are very helpful. 🙂

        Yes, I think I bond too quickly, and yes, I was thinking, maybe I am mixing the feeling up. How am I to know how a healthy bond feels like … and I do think that my brain chemistry has been hurt by the ex narc.

        A friend of mine asked me after my last experience – how can that even be, you’ve just met him?! He wouldn’t even READ my messages within three days after meeting up, and then he said, oh he had just needed time to come back to himself, he would have answered in a week’s time.

        Ah, pulling away, yes, I see. I think that is indeed a factor for me, I suspect that I unconsciously choose guys with a distant (or non existant) attachment style, that I feel actually safer then (unconsciously). I retreat myself when someone gets too close.

        Windstorm, I thought I was this way, too, but how can it be then, that the other person doesn’t feel the same? I mean, yes, there have been other types of people, who did not vanish, but I do keep meeting guys who do, and who tell me that they don’t feel any connection at all. Either in general, or to me. Those who say not to me … indeed seem themselves to be drawn more to distant non-attachment style women, or borderliners.

        Even when I thought that they were more like me, and getting closer because they felt an instant bond, too. But they didn’t, obviously, so my perception has been off, or blind sided. I’m not sure. And it is kind of true that I feel this way more often when I am “indulging” with someone, as someone had phrased it. I don’t understand how I feel this way, and the other person completely different, … so the perception is completely different.
        [I didn’t feel an instant connection with the ex-narc, but instant attraction and a connection pretty soon … but he was of course mirroring no end.]

        1. Windstorm says:

          Ava101,

          While there is usually some type of reciprocal feeling, I doubt anyone else feels the same way as I do, when I feel a bond with them. What I described is just how it seemed to me. I guess I just have always assumed that the other person feels differently (if for no other reason than I grew up believing I was crazy and they’re probably normal).

          For me it’s more a connection, an understanding based on a commonality. Maybe an openness on my part that they respond to. I definitely feel that my opening myself up to them has to happen first. Maybe your shared “indulgence” and happiness of the location and setting is what opens you up to form the bond?

          Usually the feelings i get from them are more like a feeling of solidarity, and maybe a relief of being with someone who understands how they feel, what they need or who they can talk about it to (whatever shared experience caused the bond).

          It’s not like romantic love at all. I don’t even have to particularly like them. I don’t have to know them. Sometimes (if they are narcs or more narcissistic) it comes across to me more as if they are needy and I am fulfilling a need for them, while the bond I feel is more just a deep understanding. I guess trying to think it thru now, that it’s really a type of empathy with them that I’m feeling.

          I could be totally wrong, but it seems to me that the problem you’re having is that you expect something back from these people. That they will care about you or stay in your life. In my experience no good comes from having expectations or attachments. My greatest happiness always comes from being complete in my self and just letting experiences with others wash over me and move on. Sort of walk thru my life like a big, interactive adventure to be observed and enjoy, but that has no real meaning.

      4. ava101 says:

        Dear Windstorm,

        I am still thinking about what you have written. Therefore only a short answer …
        I know that, too, sometimes, that I feel a connection without having to know and see the other person again.

        But sometimes I believe that I feel an ever deeper connection, and you are right, then I expect that it is mutual. … Or I open myself up because I expect it to be mutual and lasting. Then I get disappointed.
        Maybe I care more because I don’t have a family or other reliable connections, “just” a handful of friends, but not seeing them all the time, either, some not often at all in person.

        I am still not sure why I feel and need that feeling of connection, as I couldn’t have really learned that from my narc parents …
        So, I suppose, what is going on inside of me is a mixture of it all, … including empathy, the last person who confused me so much, was one I thought I could “read” very easily, … that was one of the reasons that I thought that the feeling of connection would be reciprocated.

        Yes, attachment is to be avoided, and separateness is an illusion anyways at the same time. 😉

        Last lover said, he didn’t think that it was so important to me. Before that he said it was all a matter of perception. Maybe he’s right about the latter …

    5. MB says:

      In convinced it’s a spell. They are wizards of reflection. Then they turn into fire breathing dragons and then disappear in a cloud of smoke!

      1. ava101 says:

        *lol* MB, your description is quite accurate. The narcs are, yes.
        The mirroring is one thing. But something is happening also in my brain, also with non-narcs. ;D

      2. SMH says:

        LOL MB. I called mine ‘the ghost.’

  7. Iko Flugel says:

    Hey,HG! I noticed you often mentioned the fact that the battles are meant to continue till one of the participants dies. How if the two of the parties are adepts of some school of immortality? And let’s suppose (just for the sake of the intellectual argument) the two of them actually managed to achieve immortality. Now what? Can we say the battles will be ETERNAL? Damn! My narcissist was actually right using the term “eternal love”. I thought it was a joke.

    1. Jane hall says:

      LOL
      Yikes – eternal LOVE!!!!
      My X once said he hoped there was marriage in heaven!!
      Thankfully, the Bible states there isn’t!
      lol

    2. ava101 says:

      Yeah, like me thinking at first that I had known my exnarc in a previous life …. and now meeting again to haunt me …. I promised him I will in his next life. Count St. Germain never mentioned century long battles with lovers …. but someone who had achieved this immortality would be above this kind of attachments and desires anyways.

      But I think it’s all just patterns.

  8. LYNN says:

    So tiresome hearing about this when it never happens to me, guess he was never a Narc and I’m the guilty one. First I thought I was putting the jigsaw together but there is always one big peice missing so maybe I hammered the other peices together. Maybe I got him wrong. I just know he will never Hoover me.
    I wish he would then I could finish the puzzle. Until he does I will blame myself and think the failure of the relationship was my fault. 😢 Guess if he never was I should stop reading all this stuff I have nothing to fear if he is not only the fear that feeling deep inside will never leave me.

    1. foolme1time says:

      Lynn
      You should consult with HG, he can tell you if he is and give you the help you need. 🌻

      1. LYNN says:

        I Have Emz and he thought he was, I just wish he would hoover then I would know for sure, keep doubting.

        1. foolme1time says:

          I think we all go through trying to figure out if they are or not. Remember even though a lot of what they do is the same, it depends on what school or cadre they are. Consult with HG and give your mind a rest dear.

    2. ava101 says:

      It doesn’t matter, what he is, the point is, he makes you feel bad and doesn’t give you what you need. It is not your fault.

      1. LYNN says:

        Thanks Ava x

      2. Caroline says:

        Well said Ava.
        We are so groomed to focus on everyone else’s feelings/moods that we forget to look at how WE feel.
        Do we feel listened to? Cared about? Protected? Valued? Do we feel loved? Do we feel that our needs matter? Our feelings, our opinions, our time?
        This is the litmus test.

    3. Amanda Katz says:

      He may never hoover, but that doesn’t mean he’s not a narc. Mine cheated on me, gaslighted and discarded me. I called him on his lies and narcissism, he smeared me to his ex and his children, and there is no way that I would ever be good fuel for him again unless he wants to further destroy me. I’m so broken now it feels like slow death, but I’m learning what he is (though I had always suspected it) and I’ll make it through this eventually. The point is, I think if things ended badly and they know we will just humiliate/embarrass/call them out or provide no fuel, they won’t hoover. But they’re still narcs.

      1. LYNN says:

        yes precisely Amanda thats why i get sick of hearing about all this hoovering that doesnt happen. but i frightened him i think. i stsnd and fight strong even if I’m like jelly inside x

      2. ava101 says:

        Mine hasn’t hoovered for more than 1,5 years now. But he certainly is a narc.

        OMG HG, it’s been almost 2 years …

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Time yet

      3. ava101 says:

        I meant, it’s been almost two years that you and I met (here, on the blog). !!

    4. Amanda Katz says:

      Hi Lynn,
      I’m not sure if my last comment went through, but just because me may not ever hoover doesn’t mean he isn’t a narc. Mine lied, cheated, gaslighted and discarded me over a 10 year period. He proceeded to lie about me, smear me to his ex wife and children and finally I spoke up, called him a narc and threatened exposure. I don’t believe he will ever hoover me, but that doesn’t mean he’s not a narc. If they feel like you will further humiliate them/hurt them/expose them they might not come back, even for negative fuel. At least that’s what I believe to me true of the narc ex.

      1. LYNN says:

        Yes Amanda I believe are stories are similar but all this Hoover talk when it’s absent to us makes me doubt. I would love my ex to Hoover id feel more sure and id have another chance to call him out and let rip at him. He was an ass whether or not a Narc so bad riddance just wish I had the final Hoover card to give my heart peace in that knowledge.
        Do you feel the same ? x

    5. Amanda Katz says:

      I think it’s natural to want the hoover when we’re left so broken, and the fantasies of having the last word or rejecting him are strong. However, fuel is fuel and now I completely understand how critical it is to stay silent and maintain no contact. I’ve blocked the narc on every avenue. It’s the only way.

      1. LYNN says:

        Thanks Amanda your words help. Maybe you would have been hoovered if you hadn’t blocked him. guess you will never be sure. I blocked then unblocked to give him some final call out. Then he blocked me but I haven’t blocked him again. I won’t be caught up again if he did just need to know if he will so I can believe HG who insists all Narcs will hoover and they think your always theirs. I just need that one Hoover to be sure otherwise I guess I will always doubt the diagnosis. Mabey I just have to settle for the diagnosis Asshole. At least with a Narc you can accept it’s an illness and just not a selfish cruel controlling nasty peice of work. At least with a Narc you can forgive as they can’t help themselves.
        Lynn xx

        1. Windstorm says:

          Lynn
          A hoover won’t prove anything. I had one not hoover me for 34 years. Normal people often reconnect after many years.

          1. analise13 says:

            I agree, Windstorm.
            Not every person we know who reconnects with us
            after an extended period of time is a narcissist.
            If it is a relationship
            friendship or romantic or familial
            that was abusive previously
            and you distanced yourself for a reason.
            Then I would most definitely question why they are returning.
            Motive wise.
            And be wary to reconnect.
            For risk of further abuse.
            I have had people reconnect with me from the past
            and it has been a postive experience.

        2. Em says:

          You can never forgive a narc. Just learn a lesson.

      2. LYNN says:

        I’m sorry you’ve had such a tough time Amanda and still are. I hope things will get steadily better for you. For me it’s just odd moments sometimes hatred sometimes sadness but much better every day. x

      3. LYNN says:

        thank you Windstorm

    6. Michael says:

      Lynn,
      One thing I’ve learn from our sage HG is that Hoover’s have no specific time frame. It all depends on fuel. If they have plenty of good fuel supply you will not hear from them. During that time you are basically dead to them. But from someone who has lived 10 yrs wondering what I did wrong, the Hoover’s will come. Spend this time as HG suggest and strengthen up your NO Contact you will need it one day. Waiting for every ounce of proof will drive you nuts. Accept that it was toxic take a deep breath and move to a healthier place. This road is tough and it is very long. Self blame is something I have struggled with but every day it gets better. Your Narc may be evolving and learning how to better manipulate his fuel thus giving him more for now. But they will all circle back. They have to, just to see if we are still there.
      Michael.

      1. Windstorm says:

        Michael
        I agree. If the relationship was toxic, it doesn’t matter if he was really a narc. Toxic is all that matters. If you try again with any toxic person, you’ll just get more toxic because that is what they are to you.

      2. LYNN says:

        Michael
        Thank you so much for your words. Helps to know others understand. I go through strange changes in mind, one minute I feel really lucky that i haven’t been hoovered because I know it would be aweful but then sometimes I feel it would give me the final clarity and closure, an end to the story.
        Yes as you say it’s a tough road getting your head around everything and getting rid of the emotional thinking and I appreciate HG and his insights.
        Where are you on your road Michael are you doing well?
        Lynn x

        1. Michael says:

          Lynn,
          10 yrs in the dark blaming myself each time it failed. 3 months ago due to Devine Intervention I literally stumbled across Sir Tudor’s page. As I started pouring myself into the pages, so many things jumped forward. The acceptance was hard, still is, and I did not want to believe that the person who I had so much faith in, who I believed and trusted never really existed. There are days I still struggle. The battle between the heart and the head is a tough one. But I have not broke no contact, funny thing is all the many times before I never did either. She ALWAYS came back to Hoover. Only this time I know what it all is and that it NEVER was my fault. Reading here has made me stronger. But it has changed me as well. We have to realize that you can not save them. We can not change them. They exist exactly as they must to survive. But when the roller coaster makes you nauseated….. get off and simply walk away. Having the last word having the ultimate proof will benefit you very little. Trim your sails and point the head of your boat to a brighter horizon. Smile and know that when you do this…. you win.
          Michael

      3. LYNN says:

        Michael it’s great to hear you have managed to free yourself from the dark years and I take full heed of your wise words and thankyou I am steering my boat to a brighter life those sails have already been hoisted.
        Forgive me however for being so obsessed about the lack of Hoover, I guess it’s because it’s all I hear about from others, even you have been hoovered yourself which no doubt has helped your education and determination to move on convinced that you were in a Narcissistic rrelationship.
        I know I was in something toxic so yes I will follow my healing path and would never go back with him if he did Hoover but just wish I could have had it to give that closure a stronger pounding.
        I will not block him though as foolish as that sounds as I just would want to know if he tried to contact. It won’t affect my life I know I will never be a victim again.
        I hope your boat is cruising into a beautiful life now Michael those 10 years won’t have been wasted you have learned so much.

        1. Michael says:

          Lynn,
          Have you read HG’s ( How We Get Away With It and What You can Do About It) ? I use to sit around wanting the Hoover to come just so I could have the proof. But one day I realized I was merely wanting it to come so that I could say “ she chose me again”. I realized it was the same old guilt against myself that fealt like I wasn’t good enough unless I was being chose by my Narc for abuse. And so I waited for the return. Oh I was going to be tough. I was going to be strong but in the end emotional thinking prevailed and their ways of getting in and making things seem so perfect overtook me and I started the cycle all over again. I now actually fear the Hoover much as a child would looking under his bed at night because he KNOWS monsters are real. And if he goes looking for it he will find one.
          I have steered towards a brighter horizon but there are many troubled waters ahead. Storms and rough seas and yes even monsters lurk in the deep dark waters. But hopefully knowledge gets us past these moments until we arrive safe on dry ground. I believe HG in that, the fight is never over. I know for a fact my Narc recently Hoovered a guy she left 26 yrs ago. Simply because he got divorced and she saw opportunity. And she within weeks was gone again.
          I use to laugh and tell her I was like an old dog that lived under a porch. She would just come by every now and then and yank the chain to see if I was on the other end.
          Search deep inside yourself and be safe.
          Michael

      4. LYNN says:

        Thank you Michael you too x

      5. ava101 says:

        Beautifully said, Michael, and am totally with you.

  9. 69Revolver says:

    Thanks for helping me HG—finally I stand on dry land. I truly am enjoying the ivory tower you helped me build.

  10. KM says:

    This is exactly how it feels 👏 Bravo HG

  11. Claudia says:

    You are saving my life. Thank you.

  12. tigerchelle78 says:

    Yes definitely this for me, (however I do like to go have a swim in the emotional sea every now and then).

    You may opt to establish an estate where you do not take refuge in some tower, but instead you create a place of familiarity where everyone is known to you and you are known to them. You have your supporters in clear view and whilst you may not tread down the path less travelled in search of new territories you reduce your risk of us appearing out of nowhere. These familiar places enable you to maintain clear lines of sight so that if we do make an appearance you are able to take suitable evasive action.

  13. /iroll says:

    Right. They just can’t get over the narcissistic wounding.

    1. Lou says:

      Hi iroll! Just wanted to tell you that I hope my comment about some of your comments leaving me wondering if my brain hasn’t shrunk did not offend you. I actually find your comments interesting and funny. I like the way you create terms and the way you use them. I was just making some humor, but I realized later it may have come out the wrong way.
      Apologies if it bothered you in any way.

  14. merrymagenta says:

    I’m guessing that cutting brake lines isn’t a particularly empathic trait… lol

  15. Star says:

    I can’t even express how much of an impact this article has for me. All I can really say, is that after reading this I feel so much relief, as though I have finally gotten to a place where I needed to be. Its like surviving a war and living to tell about it. Lol, yes that sounds rather dramatic , but for myself it is oh so true. I have learned to always expect the unexpected, i have learned that i will always be targeted, i have learned that there will always be Hoover’s. Bit I have also learned that I dont have to be bound to the past. That I can change my thinking and reactions. That I can still be free in my life and surroundings. Thank you once again HG. It is unfortunate hugs make you squirm ;even if they are just virtual ones

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Star
      Its great to read that you you are on dry land and navigating it well.
      NA

  16. Coffee Time says:

    I have to admit I don’t feel like I have gotten here yet. I feel like I got my estate but everytime I see a storm cloud anywhere nearby I get pitched into a frenzy to make sure everything is nailed down and watch all paranoid waiting for it to hit the coast. Hasn’t yet but I know it’s gonna at some point and rain down some hell. I get tired of people saying “It’s just a storm CT” at me. They mean well, but they just don’t get how bad it can be.

  17. Emz says:

    HG, is it fair to say that if you get to the final and you’re doing well, you are no longer playing the game (therefore not in battle). I know that I’d never go back. I’m fully educated now and it will never ever happen. We share a child which will remain our only connection and thats fine but as for playing the battle; I’ve checked out.

    1. Caroline says:

      Well done Emz. When your little one grows up and understands adult life, they will be so proud of your integrity and resilience.

      “I’ve checked out”
      Reminds me of the aftermath of N-mother’s passing when N-sister’s toxicity became exponential. A thought came to me “she wants to be the alpha female of the family, now that the previous alpha has vacated the position”. My next thought was “well she’s in a competition by herself, I’m not interested”.
      My brother and I went no contact with her from then on, but in true victim-N style she twistedly proclaims that our no contact is an attack on her.

      Our new default position is ‘standing our ground’.

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