You Should


What is the prevailing mind-set of the Mid Range Narcissist? What is going through the mind of the member of the largest school of narcissism when an appliance has been treacherous and disloyal? Does he manifest the malice that is exhibited by the Greater school or is his response different? What is he thinking when there is treason committed in the Kingdom of Mid-Range? Whether the appliance has escaped him, exposed him, challenged him or some other capital crime against the nation-state of narcissism, the Mid-Ranger’s mind goes into overdrive. This is a glimpse inside to understand what he or she believes.

You should not have done that to me. You should be thankful for who I am. You should be giving thanks to whichever god you follow that you have someone like me in your life, someone who cares, someone who is considerate, someone who only wants the best for you. You should be ashamed of the way you have treated me. You should apologise this instant. You should say sorry to me for the way you have behaved. You should treat others the way you want to be treated and not going around behaving like you are something special. You should realise I am something special and you keep treating me terribly. You should understand that I am a good, honest and decent person and not everybody would put up with your hysterical outbursts. You should know how hard it is to love somebody like you, but I do. You should be grateful for that.

You should know who you are messing with. You should be wary of getting on the wrong side of me you know. You should make sure you keep me happy because you will not like me when I am not happy. You should be looking out for me and not gadding around after other people. You should learn what your priorities are. You should spend more time with me. You should know when to leave me alone. You should be here and doing what I want. You should try giving for once rather than doing all of this taking.

You should be more aware of the way that you treat people and especially me. You should think more about how your actions impact on me. You should take my feelings into account and stop being so selfish. You should realise just what you do hurts me. You should understand that the things you say and do to me have consequences. You should stop making it all about you and let me have a say from time to time. You should stop being so obsessed with your friends’ lives and think about our lives together. You should spend less time with your family, they do not appreciate you in the way I do.

You should stop telling lies about me. You should get your own house in order before you start telling me how I should lead my life. You shouldn’t live in a glass house you know and throw stones. You should stop being such a nasty person to someone who has only ever been good to you. You should stop smearing my name to other people. You should take a look in the mirror. You should take a good look in the mirror actually.

You should stop putting me down. You should do what I want for a change. You should come back and apologise, I am a reasonable person and you should recognise that. You should make things right again because after all this is all your fault. You should stop fighting with me, I do not know why you have to do this. You should stop trying to tie me in knots. You should be more considerate. You should think about me more. You should sort this mess out because you are the only one who has caused it.

You should see how hard I have been trying for us. You should recognise a good person when you see one. You should know I have made the changes you demanded but you should be making some of your own as well. You should realise just how much I have tried for you and me.

You should know what other people say about you. You should realise that I put up with people saying bad things about you and you should be grateful I defend you to them, but I won’t keep doing it forever. You should realise you are not as popular as you think you are. You should be aware that I am a popular person and you won’t come out of this looking good at all.

You shouldn’t treat me like this. You shouldn’t destroy what I have built. You should recognise a good person, an honest person, a truthful person like me. You should learn just what you have lost by behaving like this. You should see just how many people hold me in high regard. You should be so happy to have someone like me, someone who people think well of and they do, just ask anybody and they will tell you. You should take the time to realise that I am a good person and consider what you are doing to me, to us, to what we have.

You should stop hurting me. You should stop getting a kick out of this horrible treatment of me. You should stop being mean to someone who loves you. You should help me. You should love me more. You should show me that you mean it. You should stop with the pretence. You should be genuine like me. You should stop playing the games. You should be the person that would make your grandmother proud. You should be the best person you can be for me.

You should get some help. You should see someone. You should go to therapy. You should sort these problems out. You should stop blaming me. You should stop projecting your problems and insecurities on to me. You should stop the game-playing, I am cleverer than you so I see straight through it. You should tell the truth for once You should stop making up stories about me. You should reflect on what you do. You should get some insight into what you are actually doing. You should shut up and listen to me for once. You should go and see the doctor. You should take your medication. You should stop being such a borderline. You should stop being such an attention-seeker. You should stop dodging the issue. You should address your issues.

You should let me speak. You should give me a chance to make things right again. You should come back because you owe me. You should let me show you what I can do. You should understand sometimes I don’t know what comes over me. You should make allowances for my behaviour because you are worse. You should not focus on the handful of supposedly bad things I do when I do way more good things. You should listen to why I do those things because if you did you would realise there is always a very good reason behind it. You should understand I have to disappear once in a while because your behaviour becomes too much. You should understand I am not sulking, I am just being quiet. You should accept I have to tell people about the way you behave because otherwise I would go mental. You should think about the names I call you and realise I am actually trying to help you because otherwise you will not listen. You should stop trying to blame me for everything that goes wrong and instead be grateful for what I do for you.

You should give it a rest now because you are giving me a headache. You should go and let me rest because I have been working hard all day. You should rub my back. You should make me something to eat. You should be there when I come home. You should stay out of my way when I am fed up of you. You should ask me how I am and not keep telling me about what you want. You should stop telling me how I should behave. You should see what I have to deal with. You should try being me. You should understand how much pain I am in from my back and not complain about your own supposed ailments. You should show some consideration for me now and again. You should get off your high horse. You should give it a rest. You should try walking in my shoes. You should try being me for a day. You should look at it from my point of view. You should make allowances. You should be more tolerant.

You should do it because you want to. You should do it for us. You should have more faith. You should have more discipline. You should have more resolve. You should let me in. You should keep out. You should learn when to speak. You should learn when to stay quiet. You should be seen and not heard. You should follow me. You should watch what I do . You should learn from an expert. You should stick with me. You should be mine. You should stay away from him. You should not speak to them. You should know what is best for you. You should know home is where the heart is. You should know where you bread is buttered. You should know how lucky you are to have me.

You should come back.

You should because I say so.

You just should.

82 thoughts on “You Should

  1. NarcAngel says:

    The only thing we SHOULD do with narcs is listen less, observe more, and honour our instincts.

    1. IdaNoe says:

      110% To be completely honest. I knew. I couldn’t put a name to it, but in my gut I knew. My mother, my ex husband, all of them, I knew. I knew there was something off. Somehow they were not right or broken inside. Even as a child, I knew something wasn’t right. How they “turned on” when other people were around. The things they said and did contradicted their attitudes in private. And I knew she ( Matrinarc ) deep down hated me. I felt it.

    2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


      Amen to that. Also, don’t let your bias’ get in the way of your judgement (a lesson I just learned).

  2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

    How could I forget…

    You should know you’re so manipulative. You should stop playing games. You should listen to me because I’m older than you. You should know I’m smarter than you. You should know you’re smarter than me. You should know i see your potential and you’re greatness. You should understand that I say these things to help you. You should know you scare me when you look at me. You should know your eyes have changed now and you look at me differently. You should know all of your flaws. You should allow me to take those things you’ve disclosed to me and throw them in your face and attach judgment to them. You should know I’m such a nice guy. You should know I don’t want to cause you any pain. You should know I’m such a giver. You should be more of a giver. You should know I worship you. You should be grateful for all the fake opportunities I offered you and never actually delivered to you. You should know I put up with you. You should know it’s all your fault. Your should help me more. You should be a partner. You should know that you’re an angry drunk. You should sit next to me so you can watch me watch sports, go on my computer and text on my phone and ignore you and you should be happy. You should be excited. You should be everything and everything I want you to be because i never loved you or recognized you as a seperate person anyway.

  3. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:

    You should…those words make my wires cross everytime and remind me of every narcissist I’ve engaged with…

    You should be into fitness. You should be into nutrition. You should find what I find interesting. You should do all the things that I want to do all the time. You should abandon your sense of self. You should think what I tell you to think. You should feel the way I tell you to feel. You should react the way I want you to react. You should understand. You should stop being so angry. You should stop cursing. You should stop trying to guilt to me. You should wear this. You should stop taking selfies because who are you trying to look pretty for? You should make sure you don’t talk about things in our life because after all I’m paranoid and oh so private. You should want to build a computer. You should take up my interests. You should stop watching serial killer documentaries before bed. You should stop eating meat and be a vegetarian. You should drink. You should make sure you don’t drink. You should let me sleep. You should go. You should stay. You should know I love you. You should be sure of my love for you and not have to hear me say I love you all the time. You should trust me. You should appreciate all the things I do for you. You should read my mind. You should clean the house even though it’s not yours and you don’t technically live here. You should do your chores. You should have sex with me more. You should make me feel like a man. You should know how brilliant I think you are and how much you have to offer. You should know you have nothing to contribute to a relationship. You should not be bothered that women call me all the time at all hours. You should not be jealous. You should be jealous. You should know nobody loves you and you don’t have any friends. You should be more independent. You should hear yourself. You should know that any man that talks to you or acts interested in you only wants to fuck you. You should be my puppet. You should be my fuckdoll. You should let me control you. You should let me censor you and silence you. You should forgive me. You should make excuses for my nasty and selfish behavior. You should take responsibility for all of the shit I put you through. You should be nice to me again. You should get help. You should know you have a distorted perception of events. You should be an extension of me.

    Hmm here’s a thought……….
    All of you mid range assholes should kiss my ass….

    1. IdaNoe says:

      Roflmao! Awesome! My ex victim midranger used to complain that I acted/ looked too masculine. To shut him up, I used to tell him if he’d act like a man, I would have too. A couple time of that and he quit.

      1. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        That’s hilarious lol! Since I should do so many things lol lets play the should game and tell you what you (to dr. Cool) should do do…

        You should stop feeling sorry for yourself. You should know there is a severe discrepancy between who you think you are and who you really are. You should know you have no solid identity. You should know you are dependent upon others to validate your existence. You should put down your phone and computer and give your kid more attention. You should stop being so hard on your child – he’s a damn child! You should practice what you preach. You should know you have an addiction to multiple substances. You should get help. You should get some insight. You should know you’re shallow. You should be present. You should stop talking about yourself. You should control your explosive anger. You should know I helped you analyze and write your reports. You should remember how much I taught you. You should stop using my lines in therapy as your own. You should remember how I helped you with clients when you didn’t know what to do. You should know that I would have done practically anything to make you happy but not at the expense of losing myself. You should stop testing and pushing my boundaries. You should dress professionally. You should stop taking calls from “clients” at crazy hours who need help with their guy issues. You should make sure not to get involved with being popular with the moms in the social scene. You should stop taking advantage of vulnerable people – especially the mother of one of your clients. You should make sure you don’t flaunt your stupidity and multiple relationships at public events especially when the clients mom is married and you’re carrying on an affair. You should should stop having multiple relationships. You should know I saw the signs but I tried to believe you. You should rmemeber when I kept joking sporadically throughout the relationship verbalizing that I questioned you were a narcissist. You should know this ain’t no my first rodeo. You should know you’re not actually a nice person. You should know you’re a selfish person. You should know that you will continue to repeat the same pattern over and over again. You should know you are self-destructive. You should know that I know the disgusting things youve done because sources have told me. You should know by now I disappeared. You should know that you’re blocked. You should know that you are dead to me and don’t exist. You should know you will destroy everything you touch. You should know that I don’t lay down and die. You should know you underestimated me even though you said never would. You should know that I’m smarter than you and you’ve admitted that on multiple occasions. You should know I always win. You should know that now my narcissistic traits are shining bright like a diamond an you should stay away.

      2. Dr. Harleen Quinzel PsyD. says:


        How could I leave this final should out lmao

        He should know I’m the best thing he will never have ever again.

  4. WiserNow says:

    You’re welcome Tammy. Thank you for your message and for the information about the different therapies. I haven’t tried EMDR, however, I’ve heard a few accounts of it being helpful. The massage was a good idea. A good massage is very relaxing and it sounds like it took some of the tension out of your body.

    I’m really sorry that you were beaten. Nobody has the right to do that to you and please don’t ever think you should stay and put up with it if they even attempt to raise a hand to you. About you being a “witch”, thinking logically, I’d say you have highly empathic and sensitive qualities that enable you to feel and read energies that most people can’t do. That is a strength and an amazing quality to have.

    Unfortunately, though, it also probably makes your boundaries less solid. You let him in and tried to “fill up his void”. The stark reality is that you can’t fill up another person’s void. The good thing is that you CAN protect yourself and you can have stronger boundaries. Good luck with everything and best wishes.

    1. Tammy says:

      Wiser Now, thank you. Right now I’m missing him. Unwittingly I still think there’s hope for him. Even hope for HG. There’s frontal lobe stimulation therapy. I’m going to try it eventually. One thing it helps with is to get to the unused part of the brain. It’s not like electric shock treatment that doesn’t work and worsens depression. I was going to to that, but decided not to. I was even going to Puru for a type of hallucinogen that’s supposed to help, but decided against that. I’m not trying to break my brain anymore than it’s been broken. I’m obsessed with finding answers. But then again healing is a scary thing. And hurts like hell. But it also hurts like hell seeing people hurt. Maybe it’s their choice to stay the way they are. It’s hard for me to leave it all alone. But also doing my best to stay in my own lane. I’m the only one who can fix myself. I truly can’t fix other’s.
      Sometimes I hate having such caring empathy because it’s confusing and painful.

      1. nunya biz says:

        Awesome. Please keep us informed! Ha the ayahuasca. I’ve considered as well. I’ve heard good things about micro-dosing mushrooms and have access to that. But yeah, exact same reservations, I don’t want to change up the pathways in ways that aren’t effective. I’m serious about answers as well, sometimes I think it’s questionable.

        Great comment, yes painful.

        1. Tammy says:

          Thank you, I will.

      2. nunya biz says:

        Btw, I apologize my comment is out of place, I had responded only to the one comment and had not read the thread, was appreciating the emdr recommendation, etc.

        1. Tammy says:

          No apologies needed!

  5. WiserNow says:

    This article reminds me of my mother. She is a victim mid-range narcissist with strands of “Angel with a Dirty Face” as well.

    I recently called her to see how she was and how my father was too. For the last two years or so, the phone calls are fewer and far between, and they’re not as chatty as they used to be. I have not told her why or that I know about her mind games and manipulations. In a nutshell though, complete no contact is not entirely possible.

    After months of fairly intense hoovering – which would have made me feel guilty in the past – her hoovers didn’t have the effect she desired. They didn’t make me change my behaviour. While I was still appreciative of the things she did to hoover, I didn’t reciprocate in the manner she would have expected. In the meantime, I have been focusing on my logical thinking and being more mindful of my own thoughts.

    Now, during this recent phone call, she started subtly accusing me of some things I “should” have done and didn’t do. Her accusations have no real basis, because whether I had done them or not made no real difference to the ultimate outcome. The accusations are only meant to make me feel guilty, and logically, I know this because I now know what the real meaning is behind her words.

    The interesting thing was the way my emotional thinking was affected after the phone call. Despite my logical understanding, I “felt” worried and fearful. I felt like I needed to prepare for something bad happening to me. I felt like I needed to protect myself against some impending doom. I felt like I needed to read and re-read more of HG’s books and advice!

    Then I suddenly myself… I am a capable, independent middle-aged woman and I am feeling “frightened” of my elderly mother’s subtle accusations. It makes no logical sense. But the emotional mindset is very real and feels fearful. I think it also has echoes of the way co-dependent people tend to “catastrophise” when they perceive something fairly minor as being more harmful than it actually is.

    This gave me a pivotal realisation. From very early on, my mother had instilled this emotional fear into me. The “shoulds” that HG writes about weren’t just words on a page. It’s not something that you can just “get over”. From early on, they were absorbed as real accusations that created and instilled real fear, guilt and submission. The emotional repercussions of this are very ingrained and can be triggered quite easily.

    This is what narcissistic parents do. They instill fear and dread in their children’s brains, where a normal (or ideal) parent would have probably instilled calm and confidence.

    1. windstorm says:

      You’re right about narc parents wanting to instill fear and dread in their children. I think I was more adversarial with my mother. I often laughed at her when she complained or made her subtle digs. When ever I called her she always said, “well, what do you want now? You only call me when you want something.” One day I laughingly told her, “Well, you constantly insult me and complain about me, why would I suffer thru that if I didn’t want something?”
      Laughing at her helped me probably more than anything. Their words can’t hurt as much if you don’t take them seriously.

      1. Tammy says:

        Windstorm, I love this. I used to be like you and laugh at them. Unfortunately at this time in my life I’m trying to dislodge the tree from my arse and get the cranky out of my system. Believe me, I’m looking forward to the day I can really laugh again.

      2. WiserNow says:


        Thank you for your reply. I think it’s great advice to be more adversarial and to turn things around by making a joke and laughing at their digs. By laughing at their accusations, it both reduces your own emotional thinking and also minimises their sense of power over you.

        I think I personally have a general inclination to look for ways to create harmony and peace between us. This makes me naturally non-adversarial, which is playing right into the narc’s hands. The more you try to create harmony, the more the narc has you right where he/she wants you. And the more you tend to blame yourself for any disharmony.

        I’m going to try that next time. Make a joke out of her mean-spirited and baseless accusations. Thank you Windstorm!

        1. windstorm says:

          Good luck with it. It takes practice. Start with just chuckling when she says something hurtful and don’t explain yourself. Like it’s a private joke. If you get emotional when she’s questioning you , you’ll just end up fueling her. I focused on thinking how absurd and predictable she was and how laughable that was.

          1. WiserNow says:

            Thanks Windstorm. I really do need to create more of an inner emotional resistance to her. I need to practise doing that, and then it will be easier to laugh at her comments and accusations. I think I need to truly accept that she has this type of personality AND despite the fact she is my mother, I can’t forget that or dwell on it. She will not change and she does not genuinely care. Those are the facts.

        2. Tammy says:

          Thank you both, this is so true. All I felt was shame when my family members laughed at me.
          Just a bunch of assholes. My siblings still laugh at me and call me crazy.

          1. WiserNow says:

            You are not crazy Tammy and no-one in the world has the right to call you that. If they do, it says more about them than it does about you. Please remember that and keep telling yourself that. Rewire your brain as often as possible.

            In addition to thinking logically, I also consciously practice self-compassion and self-validation as much as possible. It may sound corny, but I make sure I am my own best friend. The internal happiness and calm that these repeated thoughts have brought me are very powerful and life-changing. I don’t care so much about people’s judgements or opinions and I don’t feel so easily invalidated anymore.

            It helps to repeatedly practice giving yourself the things the narcissist took away from you. Be kind and compassionate to yourself. Acknowledge your own strengths. Take care of your health and happiness. Do the things you enjoy and be responsive to your own emotions. Make yourself happy and don’t feel guilty about it.

          2. Tammy says:

            Wiser Now, thank you. Been working little by little to pull things together. Everyone’s comments here has been a great help, and I’m loving what you said. It seems right now that everything is hard right now, especially doing some tough therapy, but I treat myself afterwords when I can. My life is unmanageable to the point of not knowing exactly who I am. But working on better things.

          3. MB says:

            Tammy, you’ve made so much progress. I’m proud of you girlfriend! Keep on keeping on ❤️

          4. Tammy says:

            Thank you. Doing some hardcore work. I have to keep going, I don’t want to live the rest of my life in crazy mode, and getting a stronger hold on controlling my empathic, and codependent crap. Love and hugs to you and thanks for cheering me on.

          5. WiserNow says:

            Good for you Tammy. It does take time and inner work to know exactly who you are. Also, if you need to change the previous patterns of thinking and doing, that takes time and effort. Keep persevering and treat yourself with kindness. There are times when it’s hard and it seems like nothing’s changing, but the bigger picture will change over time. Keep reading and learning and add more knowledge to your efforts. The hard work will pay off. Once you know the underlying truths of what people do and why, you won’t go back.

          6. Tammy says:

            Hearts and hugs!!!

          7. Tammy says:

            Working to let the illusion go of loving the wrong person. Cool, hard logic has got my attention tonight. I loved him so deeply, feeling like I almost was beginning to lose my very soul. I want to know what it is to do what I want to do. And it’s hard. But that’s an illusion too. Andy Worhol said that life imitates art. I feel I’m lucky enough to love art. I haven’t painted in year’s. I don’t write stories or journal anymore. And now I’m back to not being able to listen to music again. That comes and goes. I constantly worry, protecting myself from crap memories the best I can.
            I almost committed no contact suicide again. Yes, back on Facebook, which I did because everyone seemed to go away. And I miss the social interaction. Feeling lonely is not my forte. I don’t do it well. Maybe it’s that narcissistic and even empath within that craves fuel. Although I’m not out to hurt anyone. That is unless my own fury rises within. Yes, I’m trying to fill a gaping hole. Except my own rules and boundaries are so ridged that I literally freez up. Fuck, it’s really a bitch. And really, this is all part of some dramatic illusion I’ve created, sucking in narcissist after narcissist because of the illusion I can correct what happend to me as a child/teen/adult. Right now my life feels like a huge toxic desert wasteland.
            What can I do but continue to to reach out, be truthful and transparent at this time in my life. I feel if I can do this, it’ll help me heal, read HG’S material, continue doing good things for myself like continue with therapy no matter how hard it is and what it brings up, and buy myself little presents each week. I’m happy l splurged and got a massage yesterday. Now I’m looking into a rolfing session, a massage to further help release trauma. I decided to buy a simple looking, cheap ring to wear as a wedding ring so people will leave me alone. Thank very last thing I need or want is another relationship. My sex life is in ruins. I’m not interested. It all freaks me out. None the less practising for the first time ever to be kind and loving to myself. My only wish here is to maybe say what other’s can’t and maybe my stories will help people feel less alone. Ahhh…my empathic, codependent self coming up. Still trying to save the world. It’s a hard habit to break. And it’s all an illusion, magical thinking and feeling.
            And it’s sad, if someone asked me to name things I’m grateful for, I’m not even sure I could answer at this point. I need to smash the mirror of illusion. I have to if I truly want to be myself.

          8. WiserNow says:

            All these thoughts you’re having and questions you’re asking yourself… that’s all part of it. It doesn’t come easily or quickly or in a clean-cut way. Just keep doing it and one thing will lead to another and you will start to feel more in touch with who you are, what you want and what you don’t want. You’re doing really well so far. Well done 🙂

    2. IdaNoe says:

      WiserNow, OMG! I get that! I’ve frequently refer to Matrinarc as a witch! Not a Wicca witch, but a bitch witch that can conjure bad things to happen, generally to me! Secretly , ok not so much now since I’m telling you, but anyway I’m terrified of her. I get afraid she’ll make something bad happen because I defy her. I get this sense of foreboding and get paranoid. Hubby says I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop. He generally talks me down, but there are way too many coincidences. Ex. We go to the fair. We never go anywhere because we’re working. So we go, have a nice time, walk around all day. Right before we are ready to leave, my knee pops. Walking indoors on a flat surface. Torn meniscus. That was August 15. Know what August 15 is, my parents anniversary! It’s just freaks me out.

      1. WiserNow says:

        I know what you mean IdaNoe. It sounds crazy but it’s true. I sometimes had (and still have) strange unexplainable bad luck happen to me too which seemed very odd.

        Sometimes I think there’s some form of bad energy that manifests in unlucky things happening. The emotional unrest and spiritual chaos that narcs carry around with them secretly must create dark energy somehow. I believe this to some extent even though it can’t be proven.

      2. Tammy says:

        This is a stretch, but I can tell you what I do… I wear protection oil from a local metaphysical shop. Or pray to your higher power before having to deal with difficult people.
        I really resonate with what you wrote. But my mother was a real witch. I caught her several times burning candles, etc… she’s dead now and believe me, I’m very glad.
        I don’t tell people this much, but my mother was pure evil.

        1. WiserNow says:

          If it works for you Tammy, and you see and feel the benefits, then go ahead and wear the protection oil. Your mother sounds very frightening. It sounds like she enjoyed causing harm and fear for other people. I’m sorry you had to experience that. She’s gone now, so that’s a relief. I hope you can focus more on you now and whatever gives you good experiences.

          Personally, I find a lot of helpful insights when I learn about astrology – both Western and Eastern astrology. I recently found out more about yin and yang energy and the five elements in Eastern astrology. I find that when I apply the things I learn about astrology to the “real” world and people in everyday situations, it is very insightful and helpful.

          All the best to you Tammy 🙂

          1. Tammy says:

            Wiser Now, yes she was quite scary. I love astrology because it’s so in line with astronomy. I love things can be traced back to ancient times. I myself used to to charts for people, I read cards with 90 percent accuracy. And I loved it. I was in my true empath mode. And I would do it for free I loved it so much. I felt like I was really helping people. I love meditation, yoga. But it all stopped when the narcissist entered my life and beat the shit out of me, accusing me I was a witch. I never considered myself that because of my mother. But she was dark. I wasn’t. So needless to say I don’t do those things anymore. I lost so much of myself being with him. He really wrecked my body. But I stayed trying to fill up his void. I couldn’t compete with the other women, porn, an a lot of other things.
            Yesterday I decided to treat myself to a massage. My body had so many knots and I never realized how much my body hurts.
            And I still do no contact suicide at times. Just crazy. I’m so glad for this blog, HG, everyone’s comments, and therapy. EMDR isn’t an easy therapy., but it works, I know it takes time to get better. My last therapy session, I threw up. Now I take a stuffed animal to hold.
            Anyway, thank you, WiserNow.

  6. Caroline says:

    I started reading and laughed, because it’s all so true, but then just finished reading in sad silence.
    Because it’s all so true.

  7. Tammy says:

    “You should get down on your knees and ask for forgiveness.”
    That was one that was thrown my way.

  8. trocadero says:

    Currently I am most struggling with the blame shifting part…he’s been hoovering every 2 days on skype for business (the only platform where I cannot block him due to working together) after I started ignoring him completely and locked him on all other platforms. I was ”threatening”
    to walk away from this crappy relationship many times before and tried to do NC for only few days, so I know that he expects me to “stop sulking” again, but now I stick to what I said, his hoovers got really malign – he is blaming me for ”cutting of him out of my life without any explanation (how hilarious is that!) as he was a doormat”, that it is so bitchy and immature of me bla bla. Reading some of the discards, he may well say I am the Narc!! I am sooo pissed off, and dyyyying to respond, but I will instead lash out my anger here, since I would brake no contact by replying and achieve nothing. No matter of the things he has done to me, I am still obsessed not to remain painted black in his eyes, which is a complete mindfu*k. I had the same feeling with my Narc mother (that I finally escaped and NC for 3 years) so I know that I am repeating the pattern all over again. It’s not even that I miss him that much compared to the obsession of him seeing me as a good person and not thinking that I was manipulating HIM

    1. IdaNoe says:

      Trocadero, I keep finding your posts! Your mother sounds just like mine! And your ex similar to mine as well. I know how infuriating it is to be painted black and accused of being the abuser. I’m there now with my mother. Even as she’s dying, I’m the monster, the betrayer, the heretic. I abused her when she was sick and abandoned her in a nursing home. Never mind she was making herself sick! Never mind she didn’t bathe for over a year. Never mind she would eat as the doctor told her, but ate out of the garbage can -the food we threw away and replaced with healthy food. Never mind 2 1/2 years of running our asses off 24/7 to keep her at home as long as possible and keep her home available for her should she be able to come home. Never mind the thousands of dollars spent to clean up her mess and do what was right. No never mind all the crap she’s put me through for 40+ years. No i just suck. To her, to my family, to family friends. I’m the corrupt one! I’m the nut. The angry one. The spiteful one out for vengeance. Trust me, I get your frustration Stay strong! Freeze them out! Ice cold and logical!

      1. trocadero says:

        Read Howard Halpern “How to break your addicition to a person” , it’s a must-read for all of us here! Accoupled with HG’s insights and therapy it’s a win

      2. WiserNow says:


        You are none of those terrible things. Please keep telling yourself that you are a good and admirable person who needed and deserved a supportive mother who could love you genuinely and unconditionally.

        Everything narcissists do is twisted and full of bitterness, spite and self-interest. All their accusations are projections. Their pity plays are pathetic attempts at some kind of disfunctional connection because they don’t have the capacity to connect in a healthy and positive way.

        Do I sound a little bitter? Yep, I probably do. What does it say about a mother, though, when her child needs to adopt a “no contact” policy? That is seriously twisted. I hope you stay strong too. Ice cold and logical and always expect them to be doing and saying the same demented things.

    2. Renarde says:

      Yeah, that’s a tough one. When one is so maligned the tendency to want to lash out (understandable) is HUGE,

      We have suffered and now we are being made out as the ‘fall guy’. Outrageous. I guarantee, that you are now being painted as the N. Suck it up. Rise above this, strong lady. You can do it. I know you can.

      Distract yourself. My own distraction is writing. Or being with my children.. Or washing up (bizarrely). What is your distraction?

      But go ahead here and rant all you want. I get that. Others will do to.

      People on here who are wise know that they are bearing witness to you. As am I. [Hugs]

  9. Kate W says:

    Definitely. They like to run everyone’s life! You should listen to them! LOL. My mid range her seduces people by helping them with their life -anything they seem to need she’s got the answer. Some of the advice is wise…A lot of people like to be told how to run their lives. So it’s easy. Flattery and I’m going to help you be a better person or I’m going to help you get out of this legal jam-Or I’m gonna help you respond to this letter from the IRS. I’m going to help you fight your traffic ticket. Meanwhile the primary source is standing there thinking… Remember me?

    1. IdaNoe says:

      Yep Kate, I feel ya! I could be bleeding from my eyeballs and be completely ignored.

  10. Carolyn says:


    you state that narcissists (before they discard their partner) think they are really in love with the victim.

    I’d like to know – what if the victim escapes them and doesn’t want to come back – does the mid range narcissist still think he is in love with her even after years?

    Normal people who were dumped can feel love for the dumper for some time after the break up. But it fades with time. And one day we no longer feel those emotions, we are ready to love someone new.

    Is it the same with narcissists? Or do they (in their mind) “love” to their last days those who escaped them?

    But as we know they need fuel so they find new partners, and, the question – are they again “in love” in their mind? Are they “in love” with a new partner and the ex who escaped?

    What if their new relationship fails? Can the narcissist use this “true love who escaped” as a psychological rationalization why their every relationship ends? “That new one was not for me, my true love escaped me”? Do they really think something like that? Or does their “being in love with the ex” feeling fades with time like in normal people?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are “loved” so long as it serves our purposes. Thus if you escape the narcissist may proclaim love still as part of the Initial Grand Hoover (and indeed later through Follow Up Hoovers) to get you back. Should this not work, the “love” will shift to hatred, contempt. It can switch back to “love” just as quickly, purely as part of our manipulative behaviour. We can “love” you today, hate you tomorrow and “love” again the day after so long as that suits our needs.

      1. Carolyn says:

        Thank you. This is something I observed with my ex narc. There was a woman who escaped him and didn’t come back after IGH. When he was in a relationship with me he told me she is the only person he truly hates and wishes her all the worst. After the end of our relationship, he suddenly started to “love” her again, hoovering her in public, claiming undying love. Then it stopped – new victim in place. Then it started all over again after his new relationship failed. And again, and again. Crazy mind f*ckery. Good to know it’s all about winning, not about feeling.

      2. Insatiable Learner says:

        HG, I would really appreciate it if you could kindly clarify the following for me. Why would the narc in his conversation with a secondary source (former intimate) say that he and his IPPS are “together” (yes, he actually said it like that “together in quotes”) for the baby they have and when the IPPS asks him why he is with her, he tells her, “we are together and we have a baby.” How come he is not saying something like, “I love her” or to her “because I love you.” When all of that was said, the IPPS was most likely in the golden period/ painted white because the narc was very concerned about her feelings, spoke well of her, and painted his ex as evil. Thank you!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          How do you know he said this to the IPPS, were you there? If not, he was lying about what he said.

      3. Insatiable Learner says:

        Thank you, HG. You are right. I was not there. I guess I don’t understand the reason for his lie. He could have just said, “yes, i love her and this is why we are together, etc.” Why not just say something like this?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          To give you hope that there might be an opening for you if he does not love her and thus keep you bound to him.

      4. Insatiable Learner says:

        Thank you, HG. I appreciate you clarifying. What can I say – a mindscrew at its finest.

  11. wounded says:

    Kiki, interesting though I don’t entirely agree. Playing the victim is different than being victimized although one can happen as a result of the other. Playing the victim is the use of that lens to avoid responsibility whereas victims often tend to question their own accountability in most situations (rape, for example. I shouldn’t have been walking back home from the bar at 3 a.m. by myself etc.) or suffer from deep shame.

    While we are accountable for own happiness and can control our reactions we do have a visceral response to a threat. Its called a gut instinct. This can be clouded by our empathetic nature and desire to see the best in others or exacerbated when our boundaries have been so insidiously eroded. That doesn’t make the threat less real.

    There are days I feel like I’m over reacting to what happened (I researched self victimization because of this). But I have taken accountability. Beyond just therapy, looking at what was being mirrored back to me, what I did actually do to pull away from the situation etc.

    Does that make sense? Not trying to offend, just giving my opinion.

    1. Kiki says:

      Hi no offence taken. I actually agree with you I just like throwing different angles out there they aren’t really my opinion just different stuff I come across. .I’m always questioning things.

      Thanks for reply.

    2. WiserNow says:

      Kiki and Wounded,

      Your comments about the “victim” are interesting. I agree with you Wounded, when you say “Playing the victim is different than being victimized”. When the narcissist “plays the victim”, it is very much a mind-game and manipulation on their part.

      As with many of the narc’s lies, there is a sliver of truth in their lies. They may have been victims at one point in their life, or something may have happened to them at some point which gives their victim stories a small bit of superficial credibility. However, if you analyse their stories of being a victim, there will be obvious signs that they are not as helpless and pitiful as they’d like you to believe.

      Anyone who is telling their victim stories again and again could be doing it for sympathy and attention. If the victimising happened years ago and their situation has changed significantly since then but they still expect special treatment because of it, you need to look at the bigger picture. Anyone who claims to be a victim yet has made no personal attempt to get real help to change their situation but still continues to hold the victim card, is suspicious. If their actions tell a different story, again, you need to think logically rather than give them the benefit of the doubt.

      Like in most things, a narcissist creates a facade and the victim narcissist is no different. They are looking for sympathy and care and that is their fuel. They use projection too, in that they will mirror the real difficulties and trials of others to make themselves look like the victim. Or, they project the image of the person they are actually victimising.

      Overall though, they are far from a real victim. It’s a facade and a mind game to dupe anyone who is naturally caring and helpful.

      1. Tammy says:


      2. IdaNoe says:

        WiserNow, I agree with you. I’ve seen it in my narcs. They don’t try to make any changes or learn about their own behavior. The just accept their bad behavior as part of themselves and feel justified in passing the pain on. They received pain so their justified in passing it on. My Matrinarc as much as told me that.

        I know for myself, I’ve gone back and had to re-examine my pain. Try to look at it in a different viewpoint now that I have more knowledge. But I think many just need to be heard, maybe for the first time ever and be accepted and believed. For me, that was the big thing, just having people finally believe me. Then not make excuses for Matrinarcs bad behavior or use the knowledge of my pain as a tool. I think being believed and hearing other’s stories, who are similar to my own is one of the biggest help to shifting from feeling like a victim to changing my life permanently. The other is really truly understanding that it wasn’t me. It’s her disorder.

        1. WiserNow says:

          Thanks IdaNoe.

          Yes, being validated and understood is so important to people who have been subjected to narcissists. Before discovering the truth about how they operate and finding this website and feeling truly acknowledged here, I couldn’t explain all of this to anyone or receive real non-judgemental and respectful validation.

          That would make me seek validation (over and over again) from the narcs I was dealing with, thinking that there was a way to get through to them and get them to understand my point of view. Obviously, this was completely wrong and kept me in the loop of emotional turmoil and feeling even more invalidated.

          Being understood and having the knowledge really does change your life.

      3. WhoCares says:


        I was reading your whole description of the victim narcissist…very well explained and so true:

        ” Like in most things, a narcissist creates a facade and the victim narcissist is no different. They are looking for sympathy and care and that is their fuel.”

        I think that this kind of narcissist specifically slips under the wire – even when people think they understand what a narcissist is – this type is the most common one that a person’s narcdar won’t necessarily register…other than perhaps Greaters (which are rare anyway, so it is not like one gets to practice recognizing them.)

        1. MB says:

          WC and others re: the victim narcissist. I had an aha moment in some of my recent reading. The manifestation of grandiosity isn’t always that they are the best of the best. Grandiosity is also displayed by the victim narcissist as being the worst of the worst. I’m the sickest of the sick, the most pitiful of the pitiful.

          “They will be doing a medical case study for the most painful fractured eyelash in history suffered by a human being. Yes, my pain tolerance IS second to none, but nobody, I mean nobody has ever felt pain like that!”

          1. WhoCares says:


            RE: Everything you said. Yes.
            Try dealing with two of them in tandem…it comes down to a serious case of victim-trumping. They can both have ‘victim’ status – I’m out.

            The one good thing; I think once you’ve dealt with one – it is easier to see the next one coming…

          2. MB says:

            WC, they can have all that “victim” status as far as I’m concerned, too. Pathetic ain’t sexy. It’s revolting.

          3. windstorm says:

            True. That is one benefit of having known a narc. You can spot the others quickly – but only if they’re the same type.

  12. Kiki says:

    Hi ,

    This might be off topic but it’s a query .Today due to work we had a well renowned psychotherapist give a talk.
    My career is v stressful and this was to help staff.
    The main idea centred around the concept of ” so within so without” and not getting into a victim mind frame.Everything is how you perceive it through your own lens , sometimes this distorted or reactive , and magnifies itself if negative.
    The mind doesn’t know the difference between a perceived threat and a real one it all to with your perception.
    Can we here get into a negative mindset , the victim mentality , ( its just a reflection I dont mean to imply we all feel that way but I know I can ) how can we be certain our mindset of what we want simply doesn’t align with the other person. Maybe other people don’t have the skills to deal with break ups , problems etc and are viewing things from their perspective,maybe just maybe it’s not an attack on us it’s simply life.
    Another point was if you hold yourself as a very loving person or intelligent or a great parent etc ,if another person attacks or rejects this core identity( even if not intentional) it creates terrible pain ,but it is our own psyche that creates the pain NOT the actions of another.
    Just a few things , I know this all prob trips up when dealing with a true bona fida narc though.

    1. sunniva says:

      Hello Kikki,

      I find your post very interesting.

      Currently I am volunteering in a project for criminal teenage boys. My role is a focus on the creation of their personal gain frame. The personal branding in such a room of alphas, betas and omegas is very interesting, and it is a given that all there is room for is focus on how to increase this personal gain frame. Since neurobiology gives the human brain a loss frame as a default study shows how this can be reversed through practise. The main focus is therefore the interpretation between perspective and perception, where both is optional and your choice. I set up role plays to explicitly make them feel how it could manifest.

      But, to put it into this context:

      I understand and respect the need of a strict no contact regime in relationships between narcissists and empaths where the gain frame is only created for the one part. However, interactions between people on the right/left personality scale must not always be of a devastating character. As an empathic individual the freedom of focus where you don’t have to be constantly afraid of the slipping of the façade is a huge advantage. Just this morning I had breakfast with my former CEO. He is a greater narcissist. He is always charming, very intelligent, and the conversations are good. We invite each other for breakfast, lunch or dinner from time to time. He claims he feels like a Rockstar in my company and I always leave the conversation better informed. Today I invited him, because I needed some insight on some of the role paly cases. It was a win-win.

      Of course, we have never been intimate, nor is he my close family or close friend, so without the private closeness the personal impact is low. I have known him for ten years and it was only through this blog information that I learned what he is. If anything, that was only an empowerment and a relational game changer to my advantage.

    2. SuperXena says:

      Interesting topics the psychotherapist at your work talked about regarding perception , the concept of ” so within so without”, the victim role and specifically the perception of threat.

      It is more and more common nowadays to induce this thinking within the staff of corporations to increase effectiveness and promote change in certain behaviours among the staff.

      During the last two decades, scientists have gained a more accurate view of human nature and behaviour change because of the integration of psychology (the study of the human mind and human behaviour) and neuroscience (the study of the anatomy and physiology of the brain).

      It has resulted on a concept called Neuroplasticity :

      The ability of the brain to change and make new connections, rewire itself and even grow new brain cells as a result of experience .Change is about forming new wiring, habits and behaviours.

      Quoting your statement:
      “The mind doesn’t know the difference between a perceived threat and a real one it all to with your perception.”
      Following this approach of the brain wiring, I would rather say that how the body ( physical reactions) and mind( thought, feeling, attitude, belief and imagination) perceive threat depends on how the brain has been trained /wired to perceive it. How one perceives threat is subject then to the wiring of threat that has been previously established by experience.

      What one perceives as threatening may not be perceived as such by others.
      And vice-versa, by the same token it explains how a situation may be perceived as threatening by some without any actual fact that sustains it.

      This brain wiring to different situations defines our perceptions, defining as a consequence our somatic and emotional reactions.

      Our perceptions ( defined mainly by experiences) then form our perspectives.
      Perception: Is about receiving something (senses receive data), and interpreting it through our own machines (body, brain).

      Perspective: Where the machine is standing with respect to where the data is coming from.

      Interesting topic about neuroplasticity regarding both perceptional and consequently behavioural change. I do not know how much the degree of neuroplasticity varies depending on the anatomy of a brain but it will be interesting to follow this research.

      If you are interested on reading more about this fascinating topic, you can google :
      Hebbian theory and Neuroplasticity.

      Best wishes.
      P.S. By the way and if it is allowed to give his/her name here: who was the psychotherapist you mentioned?

      1. sunniva says:

        Hei SX,

        Lenge siden!

        I always find your posts educational.

        I too am fascinated by Hebb’s rule, and if they have come some steps further in the research I have some reading to do.

        The reaction pattern of associative learning shows the need for cell A to move before cell B and so on to create the structured strength of the addictive wire. If this pattern occurs, together with the connection of the glands and the endocrine system, you can either structure yourself into an addiction or out of one.

        In the transformative part of it, which gives the brain development through experience, the question of perspective – perception comes into play. As I have understood it the neural networks are wired through instincts, and if these instincts work through experience you adopt them into behaviour. Take for example the pose of pride. When a blind person crosses the finish line they automatically raise their hands over their head to celebrate, although they have never seen it been done. As I have read about it the perspective through instincts are already there, then perception gives content to the frame through watching and experiencing, and the perspectives develop further. From A to B and so on.
        But I do read that you put perception first, and I look forward to reading about this topic in more detail. Do you have an author(s) to recommend for the neuroplasticity theory?

        1. SuperXena says:

          Halloj Sunnivan!

          Jo, det var länge sedan. Glad to hear from you.

          Thank you, I find your posts very interesting and educational as well.

          Wow,I have not yet reached that level yet. I have been having very interesting and educational conversations with a British scientist ( well he is the teacher) about neuroplasticity and behavioural change.

          What I find most interesting are the following theses:
          “ neurons that fire together, wire together”/”neurons that fire out of sync, fail to link”
          “synaptic plasticity is the ability of synapses to strengthen or weaken over time, in response to increases or decreases in their activity.”
          Most interesting when it comes to control the emotional thinking by changing habits/behaviours with the resulting changes of brain wiring.

          I will keep you posted about recent research (books, links etc.) on this topic arising from my further conversations with this scientist .
          I hope you are fine.

          1. Tammy says:

            I love this and would love to learn more if possible!!!

          2. SuperXena says:

            Thank you Tammy. Yes, I find this research very interesting. I will contribute with more and share it here as I advance on my own learning!
            Best wishes

      2. Kiki says:

        Hi thanks for reply.
        I’m always looking at new ideas and different ways of thinking until I got stuck and paralysed by the ex narc.No amount of looking at things differently helped there if I’m honest .
        The only thing that made me take that final step with absolute no contact was reading the and consulting with HG.The only thing.
        I will not name him as I work in the public sector and fear someone might recognise me here pouring my heart out yikes.
        The funny thing is HG s posts hurt at first but only a tiny bit compared to what I was going through ,being contacted then ignored ,then contacted and ignored for weeks at a time.This was the behaviour of a man I cared deeply for and never hurt in anyway.
        I was made to feel useless , unlovable and not worth even responding to ,that crushed my self esteem and had knock on effects to my well being even my personality.
        I’m clinging here right now as it has such a massive impact on me and this turn around for me is amazing.

        1. SuperXena says:

          You are welcome Kiki.
          “I’m clinging here right now as it has such a massive impact on me and this turn around for me is amazing”.
          Good to hear that you are feeling stronger being here.
          You will eventually step out of your paralysis and get out completely from the “box” you feel trapped in.
          The scientific aspect of this Hebbian theory is perhaps not interesting as such but it is encouraging to know that it is possible to control your emotions ( emotional thinking) and how to achieve it : by “ doing different” .

          I believe you said you read the book Exorcism and as you know the book explains how to control your emotional thinking: by “not doing” and/or “doing different”.

          If you stop “ doing” certain things (habits and behaviours connected to your ex) with time your mental wiring will be different ,consequently your perception of certain situations would be different and the emotions arising of that would be different as well.
          Controlling emotions is not about just closing your eyes and expecting them to change just by thinking about it. It is rather to act upon the process of “doing different”.
          “Doing different “ in this context: not speaking with your ex( no contact), not looking at his social profile etc.,not speaking about him ( with friends etc,), not doing things that remind you of him, not listening to music that reminds you of him etc. That is the only way of controlling your emotional thinking .
          Best wishes.

      3. sunniva says:

        Hei SX,

        Thank you for adding to my analysis.

        One of my goals is to buy myself a sabbatical year in an international city connected to a research university where behavioural science will be one of the fields I want to expand my knowledge in. Closing in on the goal I have connected with some interesting people through an online course at UCL.

        This pattern that we are discussing is very fascinating. So yes, please keep me posted on information.

        I am very well thank you, and I hope you are too.

        Klem, klem

        1. SuperXena says:

          You are welcome Sunnivan. Your plans of a sabbatical year sound great as well as the online course at UCL.
          I am presently attending an online course but it is more corporate oriented:
          Behavioural changes within an enterprise for a successful change management.
          I will definitely keep you posted! We have a common interest . Feels good to share it with you.

      4. sunniva says:

        Thank you and likewise, SX.

        I caught an interest in the subject through the online course on Transformative Management in current market trends. Behavioural analysis manifests in every learning step, and I talked to an Italian researcher who has lived in the UK for many years with interesting thoughts around the subject.

        As I love learning something new I am excited to meet new people with new knowledge. To find someone likeminded always makes me smile, so I look forward to hearing word from you in regard to this in the future.

        You are an inspiration!
        Take care.

        Stor klem

        1. SuperXena says:

          Thank you for your compliments Sunniva. They warm up my heart!
          So early in the morning and on the way to a new and exciting (working) day, It would be very nice to follow your development in this area of behavioural change that is of great interest to me also fixed now at a completely different level: more focused on entrepreneurship and Transformative Management.
          Take care of you and big hug.

          1. sunniva says:

            I can feel your enthusiasm through the screen SX.
            Love it!
            I very much enjoy living too.

            We’ll keep each other posted.
            Until next time.


          2. SuperXena says:

            Ha,ha good that you can feel it Sunniva. Actually I was so enthusiastic that I wrote my original comment in my own language (Swedish ) to make it more personalised for you. It went through moderation and was translated into English but the original content and enthusiasm was transmitted effectively.
            Now when I read it ,it is like not me but it is me. It is an English version of myself..
            We will keep each other posted.
            Ha det gott !
            Stor kram

          3. sunniva says:

            Oh but you could never be lost in translation SX.
            Your strong and charismatic personality shines through. That is most clear.

            We opened our Brazilian branch office today. The latin rhythms was a good way to start the weekend.

            You enjoy yours and we will be in contact later on.

            Klem på klem

          4. SuperXena says:

            Ah! Tusen tack Sunniva.
            “ The latin rhythms was a good way to start the weekend.”

            Latin rhythms are always a good way to start anything!

            Trevlig helg /Kram,kram

  13. PaganSkyye says:

    This sounds like the entire 3 years I dealt with his alcoholism. When I finally went to “get help” a year ago, I ended up having a nervous breakdown. Yes, he nursed me through it, then said it made him feel like he had to be my caretaker. He ended the formal relationship without telling me. When I finally got better, I went back to school, and was so grateful for all the support and help he had been. Then I discovered all the cheating. All the lies. The deviant porn. I realized this “good guy” was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Although he ended the romantic part of our relationship, I stayed because of finances. Then I made my escape in secret while he was out of town. H G, thank you for your work. You have been instrumental in my understanding of just who I was dealing with and in my recovery.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are most welcome.

  14. wolvesinwalden says:

    Lawl, “You should stop projecting your problems and insecurities on to me.” Pot, meet Kettle.

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