The Dirty Empath – Infidelity


The Empath. Regarded as a paragon of virtue with those traits of honesty, decency, compassion, love devotee, moral compass and so on. All of which make the empath and their fuel output tempting prey for us. Yet within these virtuous empathic traits sit other traits, narcissistic traits.

There are four schools of empath (Standard, Super, Co-Dependent and Contagion) . Layered on to these schools are the empathic cadres (such as Magnet, Carrier and Geyser).

Each empath within the relevant school has both empathic and narcissistic traits. Some will have a small number of strong empathic traits with few narcissistic traits which are low in strength. Some will have many empathic traits which are moderate in strength and have few or numerous narcissistic traits which are all very low in strength. Some will have many empathic traits which are strong and numerous narcissistic traits which are moderate or even quite strong. The key consideration is that, in effect, the empathic traits keep the narcissistic ones ‘in check’ and thus the empathic individuals behave in a way which is empathic with other people.

There are however two main instances when the narcissistic traits come to the fore. The first is through The Empathic Supernova which is when the empathic traits become ‘dialled down’ or eroded for a temporary time and thus the narcissistic traits come to the fore. The second instance is a permanent state of affairs and this is the cadre of the Dirty Empath. The individual is empathic, of that there is no doubt, they have those empathic traits, they also have narcissistic traits too, however one of those narcissistic traits remains strong and prominent throughout and sits alongside the fewer, weaker narcissistic traits and the various empathic traits of varying strength. This does not mean this person is a narcissist, not at all. It does not mean that this person is not an empath. What it means is that they are an empath but there is one (sometimes there might be more) narcissistic trait which ‘dirties’ their empathic status. Think of the empath coloured white with a black streak running through them.

This cadre of Dirty Empath has various strands which appertain to the relevant narcissistic trait which prevails and this includes the strand of infidelity.

Thus where the empath is already in a romantic relationship, whether living together,boyfriend and girlfriend or married and they embark on a romantic, sexual relationship outside of that relationship, their narcissistic trait of infidelity has risen to the surface and remained there. What has caused that to happen? As ever, it is a symbiotic equation.

From the empath’s side there is something not right within their existing relationship which means that the narcissistic trait comes to the fore.

For instance, let us take the example whereby the spouse of the empath is either an empath or a normal and has become impotent and/or has no interest in sex any more. All else is well within the relationship – they care for the empath, they pull their weight around the home, they are a good parent, they have a decent job and so on. All is largely well, save for the issue of sexual relations. In such a situation, the empathic spouse has the following choices:-

  1. Recognise that all else is well within the relationship, that sex is but one facet (albeit an important one) and accept that it is better to have all of the other good elements of the relationship and therefore not seek to damage the relationship or hurt their spouse by seeking sexual interaction outside of the marriage. This is the response of an empath who has no dirty streak of the narcissistic trait of infidelity;
  2. As above save that the empath regards sex as so significant that they need it yet they do not want to hurt their spouse. Accordingly, they seek their spouse’s blessing to seek sex outside of the marriage but otherwise want nothing more external to the relationship. This is the response of an empath who has the narcissistic trait of infidelity but it is not so strong as to amount to a dirty streak;
  3. As per point one, save that the empath craves sexual interaction and knows it can only be achieved outside of the relationship. They therefore seek out sexual encounters with other people but have no desire to leave the existing relationship. This individual’s narcissistic dirty streak has risen to the fore and governed the behaviour of this particular empath.

With regard to this third element it remains relatively rare that the empath will do this unilaterally because their traits of guilt, honesty, decency and compassion will fight against the desire to accommodate the narcissistic desire of infidelity. If the narcissistic trait is very strong, the empath may still seek out these encounters and have them with normal people, an empath in a similar position to their own or find a narcissist.

What happens more often than not in this third situation is that the empath spouse has been targeted by our kind.

An empath with no narcissistic streak of infidelity will resist the sexual overtures of the narcissist. They may remain as a Non Intimate Secondary Source to the narcissist. It is highly unlikely they would be targeted to begin with in any event by the narcissist.

An empath with the narcissistic streak of infidelity will succumb to the overtures of the narcissist and find themselves engaged in an affair, breaking their wedding vows, breaching the trust of their partner and becoming sucked in to the world of the narcissist. If the narcissistic streak of infidelity is very strong, the empath may even have sought out (unconsciously) the narcissist.

Combine the narcissistic streak of infidelity in the Dirty Empath and a narcissist and infidelity is a given. How this pans out very much depends on the desires and wants of the narcissist. Please see the latter part of The Married Target as to how we are drawn to those who are married and are thus susceptible to our overtures. We may want the empath to become our IPPS and thus they are designated the role of Candidate IPSS as we love bomb them and lure them away from their spouse using our range of manipulations in the way that is described in ‘The Married Target’. It may be the case that both Dirty Empath and narcissist are content with an arrangement whereby the Dirty Empath is a Shelf IPSS and sees the narcissist intermittently and is treated as a friend with benefits, side person or mistress. Both parties are content with this. The narcissist gains in accordance with The Prime Aims and the Dirty Empath scratches that itch for sex outside of the marriage (coupled with the excitement that accords with it) but keeps their own relationship intact.

Sometimes the Dirty Empath becomes the Dirty Little Secret and is content with that arrangement also.

Note however that whether the Dirty Empath is a Candidate IPSS, Shelf IPSS or Dirty Little Secret, this is always at the behest and control of the narcissist. The Dirty Empath may willingly embrace the dynamic (unaware of course that they are with a narcissist and what their role is) as it fulfils the desires of the narcissistic trait of infidelity.

The issue arises however when the Dirty Empath wants to remain in the role of Shelf IPSS or DLS but the narcissist wants the empath to become the IPPS. Battle is joined to pull the Dirty Empath in the direction the narcissist requires with all of the drama, triangulation and heartache that follows. The problem for the Dirty Empath is that having allowed themselves to be governed by the narcissistic streak of infidelity they have already trampled over their partner and the narcissist knows this. In the same way you cannot get a little bit pregnant, you cannot be a little bit unfaithful, you either are not or you are. Where the Dirty Empath has hitherto enjoyed being the Shelf IPSS or DLS, keeping this activity secret from their partner and enjoying all the other benefits of the best of both worlds, it is the narcissist who ultimately calls the tune and if he or she wants that Dirty Empath in a different role, the narcissist will strive to make it happen. If the Dirty Empath will not accord with the change of allocated role then he or she can expect their partner to be told of their infidelity and invariably the narcissist will have evidence (photos, film, documentary evidence of hotel trysts, oral testimony from Lieutenants) to use against the Dirty Empath. If the threat of release of this material does not persuade the Dirty Empath to submit to the whim of the narcissist, then it will be released. The hitherto painted white Dirty Empath will be painted black, they will be devalued prior to dis-engagement and their own existing relationship with spouse or partner will be the prime target of the narcissist for the purposes of causing its destruction and spreading misery. The need to punish the disobedient Dirty Empath and the significant fuel available (negative fuel from IPSS, negative fuel from secondary/tertiary cuckolded spouse, negative fuel from secondary/tertiary sources allied with said spouse and/or Dirty Empath, positive fuel from loyal secondary/tertiary sources to the narcissist) means that the chances of the Dirty Empath being ‘let off’ are virtually nil.

The Dirty Empath may find they can keep their own infidelity quiet for some time, remain as a DLS or Shelf IPSS and enjoy an elongated golden period with the narcissist, but they have no control over that. If it continues that way, this is purely down to the approach of the narcissist. There remains a risk that the narcissist will wish to change the dynamic and with that comes significant consequences for the playing away Dirty Empath, his or her spouse, partner and family.

Those who give in to their narcissistic trait (and this is usually because a narcissist has ‘sniffed out’ this Dirty Empath will eventually end up suffering.

This happens in the following circumstances :-

  1. The DE is DLS or Shelf IPSS for some time and then the narcissist wants to promote them to Candidate IPSS and then IPPS, but the DE does not want this as this will blow open their infidelity;
  2. The DE is DLS or Shelf IPSS for some time and then the narcissist decides to dis-engage against the will of the DE;
  3. The DE wants to become the IPPS of the narcissist, but the narcissist does not want this to happen;
  4. The DE wants to become the IPPS of the narcissist, achieves this, leaves their former spouse with all of the attendant heartache that causes and then enjoys a golden period with their newly acquired (but unrecognised) narcissist. Of course you know what is coming next don’t you? Yes, the DE IPPS is then devalued and dis-engaged from. Their narcissistic streak of infidelity has seen them lured from an otherwise satisfying relationship, drawn by the golden allure of the unrecognised narcissist only for that to collapse and now they find themselves alone, rejected and often hated by narcissist and the cuckolded spouse they once had.

The Dirty Empath with the narcissistic streak of infidelity who becomes ensnared by our kind is only heading for misery. They do not have the lack of remorse, lack of conscience or lack of guilt that allows us to drive ever forward. Instead they are left to rue the consequences of this narcissistic trait being intensified and exploited by our kind.

Further articles will follow concerning the various strands of the Dirty Empath.


276 thoughts on “The Dirty Empath – Infidelity”

  1. If I’m a dirty empath, can I get rid of my narcissistic streaks? I feel like I hate them because I hate narcissist and especially I hate and am disgusted by my father, especially as he is one of those despicable victim narcissist or at least for sure no Greater narcissist and then again and when I consciously discover ideas of grandiosity I can feel the fear of being ordinary if I completely let them go.

    1. The streaks will always be there (as they are with me) but you can learn to temper them. Just as HG is doing himself. Accept that they are within you but you choose never to use them again. No matter what the provocation.

      Stay strong x

  2. NC for 2 months now. He did 2 lame hoovers through work,to make me feel guilty of my escape ‘with no explanations’ (past several months of explanations were apparently not enough lol). It gets better over time but still thinking about him every day…what scares me the most is the idea of never ever having that rush of first falling in love with someone again,if I want to stay monogamous. I was never intimate with him,due to all red flags and me knowing how I get attached when sex is coupled with emotions but still the rush..made me feel alive analyzing everything I know that I miss the feeling and not HIM but it’s still difficult to detach him from the idea. It’s a childish need in my probably middle age crisis,but so difficult to ‘feel’ (rationally I know) that my stable marriage is much more important than that initial rush with someone that would last for a limited time as well…so basically I am missing the rush as such,not the narc I am in a battle with myself,the most difficult battle of all :/

    1. Trocadero,
      I relate to what you say here. I too, am chasing that rush, rather than my narc specifically. I have written elsewhere recently, about this, so I won’t repeat myself, just wanted to tell you I understand you!

  3. following (nothing to confess, no jokes to make, happy as a clam, but want to comment and this is the only way I know how to be able to do it)

  4. Speaking from my personal experience…

    I’ve noticed that everytime I am involved with a narcissist there comes a point where I become so bored and unfulfilled that I start seeking stimulation outside of the relationship.

    I don’t think it happens in such an abrupt way but it progresses in that direction because my needs aren’t being met. I get tired of always doing what the other person wants and pleasing them and getting nothing in return. I get tired of someone not listening to me or helping me with things or being reliable and trustworthy. Nothing is ever good enough anyway – so there comes that point where I have to fill the void in my relationship and I do that with other people. It hasn’t always resulted in physical cheating – I’ve been faithful many times but I’ve also been unfaithful and well sometimes walked the line.

    I recognize the right thing to do would be to leave the relationship which is what I did this time around but in the past it didn’t seem that easy….

    These relationships were so unfulfilling specifically- the lack of depth, attention, and giving back and being dependable really took its toll on me. I couldn’t stand sitting next to someone and them never being present. It’s like watching two autistic children in parallel play. There’s no real interaction and the interactions that occur are most of the time negative and lack any kind of depth. I think for me being so starved of real intimacy, attention and stimulation made it easy for me to get swept into another affair with someone engaging like a narcissist or a psychopath. To be honest most of the affairs that ive had have been with people who were either psychopathic or narcissistic. I must admit they were the most engaging and most exciting. They gave me the most mental stimulation and attention that I was lacking.

    Interestingly enough I don’t think I felt guilty I often felt I was secretly getting what I needed and silently laughing to myself saying fuck you to the narcissist I was with. I felt very much justified.

    Sooooo bottom line I think it’s much easier to justify cheating on a narcissist and someone who is mistreating you or who you suspect is cheating on you than someone who might not completely fulfill all your needs and is more normal let’s say..

    I’m not saying it’s right or wrong it’s just an opinion.

    I full recognize most people who agree and will probably think it’s not a very moral thing but itsvreally all a matter of perspective.

    1. You’re on the wrong website again Harley..
      I’d rather read HG’s stories if I want to know about narc’s perspectives.

      Anyone who reads carefully can see you are a narc:

      -the amount of relationships
      -the affairs
      -the boredom
      -the void
      -the need for attention and validation
      -the lack of feelings of guilt
      -the lack of empathy

      You ought to better diagnose yourself, doctor!

        1. Bibi
          That is Blank’s assessment but not everyone is of the same opinion. HG allows readers to be free to express themselves, and that includes Dr HQ as well as Blank. This is both a therapeutic and educational site with differing insights and opinions that support that, attracts intelligent readers that can form their own opinions, and prevents it from becoming just another wailing wall.

      1. Bibi, when it looks like a duck, swims like a duck…
        Oh and I’d like to add another ‘quality’/ red flag: the doctor does silent treatments as well, but of course only to people who are far beneath her.

      2. Shesaw, it’s not disrespectful (the duck-thing is just a saying right?), it is the truth. And if it is not then I am too stupid to understand or apply anything that is been said on this website.

      3. Bibi, I’d like to add two more read flags.
        The good doctor mentiones:

        -the “narcs” she deals with are jealous of her
        -the “narcs” know she is better than them

        Anyone who claims they are better than other people, is a huge red flag to me.

        This makes 10 red flags in total.

        From all her good traits, stated in her Avatar, I haven’t come across a single one in her comments. I would expect a doctor in Psychology to know about narcissism, have empathy for her clients, people with mental illness and disorders. But none of that in her comments or “letter to the narcissist”. I don’t mean to say doctors can’t be a victim themselves, but empathetic doctors would talk about narcissists in a different way.

        Either the good doctor is gaslighting here or I am not intelligent enough to understand everything that is written here on this website.
        In that case I will have to leave, cause I really can’t deal with more mindfuck.

        I truly don’t mind if she would be a narcissist (a narc is a narc, can not change that), it would just be nice for the empaths here if she would come to this blog with a skull in her Avatar, or a huge N, so people would be warned.

    2. Something that has always interested me. When do people consider it cheating? After 3 dates? One year? After you’ve lived together, only once married? After a conversation where you both pledge not to see anyone else? Is it just assumed because of some vague social convention?
      It truly boggles my mind. Who came up with the idea that we come into this world and are told that its wide open and at our disposal but oh, by the way-you gotta pick just the one mate out of millions of people and do everything to make that work or youre defective or a whore?

      Oh wait, its coming to me………the church.

      1. NarcAngel,

        I completely see your perspective. Although I’m personally into monogamy I don’t be hate on anyone who isn’t just be direct with me lol. I don’t knock anything – whatever floats your boat and works for you. I have always thought humans probably aren’t meant to be monogamous but I get very attached that’s why I can’t just sleep with people and why I don’t.

        I almost admire people who can be so free about those things…there is a freedom in being able to have casual sex that I just don’t be and can’t have.

        I have a cousin who I used to party with when I was in my early 20s she would have casual sex and she’s would tell me she could cum and I was amazed by this lol. She always encouraged me to have a one night stand but I’ve never done it and would feel terrible if I did. I also think that I wouldn’t get off anyway so the whole thing would be pointless.

        I’ve alwqys admired your like relaxed approach to sex because you appear to get what you need and keep it moving. I wish I could do that.

        1. Hi Doc HQ
          I know you recognize that I’m not saying casual sex is for everyone, or against monogamy for those who feel they want more emotional involvement in order to enjoy it. I understand that, and dont advocate going out there throwing it around, but it seems that once you are intimate with someone, that person (and society at large) deems you to be all in or you would not have done as such, and that if you want to try on other experiences that you are somehow defect or immoral. People also change over time and your brain and heart can make promises to be faithful (blah, blah, blah) at the time, but your nether regions didnt sign on. Now you date a person once or twice and its assumed you shouldnt be going on other dates. Huh? We get one life, my body is mine, what I do with it should not be a threat to others (that speaks about them), it doesnt define me or how I treat others, nor should I be made to feel that I am less than because I want more of what life offers where they may not. When I was a teen I remember a group talking about “loose” women and “whores” and I contributed that they could either be looking for “love” and that it must not be easy to determine that from looking, or that they may be searching for the person who could satisfy them sexually as well as in being a good person and match, and wouldnt that make them smart women? Pretty sure they started calling me a whore (behind my back) right after that. Whatever. Wonder how those moral whores are making out now lol.

          1. And if the Netherlands want to have a more open foreign relations Policy, I would say, let them have it.

            Just kidding.

            I think I believe in serial monogamy.

          2. Lou, First I’ve seen serial monogamy mentioned here. I think I am a true serial monogamist and always have been, though I only realized it recently. That is one reason I was fine as IPSS. I didn’t want to drag another poor sod into my dysfunction. It seemed inevitable that I would leave MRN. It took awhile and a few tries (I have never gone back to anyone but him) but I did escape.

          3. Hi SMH. Re serial monogamy, I am not sure I used the right term to say what I wanted to say. I do not believe humans are monogamous, and, for me, it is only natural to have several sexual partners in a lifetime. Personally, I have had just a few sexual partners and, except for a one-time infidelity, I have had them one at a time. This is basically what I meant by serial monogamy; one sexual partner at a time. I did not mean jumping from one relationship into the other compulsively. I can be and have been on my own without any problem. Just wanted to clarify that.

          4. Lou, Yes, one thing I realized from this experience is that I compulsively jump from one (monogamous) relationship to the next. I have taken a time out this cycle and have given more thought than usual to what I really want. I am not sure what that is in terms of a relationship but I am much clearer about what it is in terms of a person. I always fizzle out because something goes wrong with the balance. Instead of working on it, I flee and then rebound. My rebounds are therefore followed by rebounds. Going to try not to do that anymore. I expended a lot of energy trying to make it work with MRN but it was not wasted time – it was good practice.

          5. SMH,
            Ah, balance, not so easy to find for me either. I understand perfectly what you say. I have also gone from one extreme to the other in my relationships. But as you have said, it is all practice and learning.
            Taking the time to find out what one really wants is crucial, I think. I am asking myself what I want in my life too, but answers do not come that easily at the moment. I think fear is getting in the way. I need to work on those fears.

          6. SMH, sorry, I forgot to say that I get what you mean. It is better to have a freer relationship with someone when you know you are probably going to want out of it after some time.
            I agree.

      2. NA, I consider anything that you wouldn’t do in front of or try to hide from your SO as cheating. But you’re right, I had to pick ONE flavor at the age of 18 for ever and ever and make it work through thick and thin. There are positives and negatives with all situations. But as I said before, I think we are meant to go through life in pairs (or more) sharing the burdens. And that can look like pretty much anything. Some things work for some and other things for others. But we should feel freedom to change our minds and switch it up from time to time without guilt. That is the piece that is lacking.

      3. Killer combo of church, conservative small town, and emotionally barren home….it certainly affected me.
        Only now, in my late 30s, do I feel sexually free (eh mostly), and part of that is thanks to the MMRN (insert eye roll).

        Is it possible to have your own Madonna/whore complex? This question just came to me. I had no problem being as filthy as ever with narc, but still have trouble making the most basic requests of my husband while interacting physically. Something to ponder….

      4. Yeah, I understand wanting different flavors of ice cream, too, NA. Oh right, the Catholic Church where it is ok to rape altar boys and girls and divorce is a mortal sin…what a bunch of assholes.

      5. I was always faithful in relationships. Now I think it is because I was heavily “trained” into it through life experiences. It wasn’t my idea to do anything different and I was hurt when my husband did want to. Then I was in an extremely dark place in my relationship, felt ignored and utterly alone when I lied and wandered after 8 years. I don’t really think it was worth it because I didn’t have the emotional honesty and the freedom of experience that I wanted. I only do everything 100% above board in my life now, I feel I can’t be myself if I’m not honest and my biggest points of growth revolve around gaining self-honesty, which I think is the hardest kind. Re-reading this post I didn’t realize when I read it the first time that HG differentiated the honesty level either, which I thought interesting.

        I actually sometimes wish instead for a deeply connected monogamous relationship for myself, exploring one person, because like DrHQ was saying, I prefer attachment and depth. I can easily enjoy myself once though and most often it tends to be me who doesn’t agree to continue any further BUT that’s because I am suspicious of men hurting me emotionally and I tend to think incapable of reaching the level of intimacy that I need and feeling protected, etc… while also not necessarily pursuing every traditional avenue of relationships. I also agree with NA, just probably isn’t necessary to worry so much about things. And yeah, as MB mentioned I had to really reorganize my ideas on what I thought was realistic, never thought I would.

      6. Hi Narc Angel and MB
        Have you read Sex at Dawn by Christopher Ryan?
        Excellent research and analysis by him and his wife. It analyses the rise of monogamy in human societies, is multidisciplinary in approach and argues very strongly how counterintuitive monogamy actually is to humans. I have a feeling you may both enjoy it…. and it may strike some of your own personal chords…. certainly did mine.

        1. Tappi Tikarrass
          Thank you for the recommendation. I do believe monogamy is counterintuitive so would find that most interesting.

      7. And men viewing sex as a *tool*….
        I intend to avoid.
        Doesn’t work like that, not for me. Without the intimacy connect, even in a non-committal situation, I just can’t make further anything out of that. It doesn’t feel “right”. I really don’t get that.

      8. Once you go all “bonobos at dawn! —let’s end monogamy”, you also need to give equal pay to people, because the whole (cover) reason for patriarchy is the man is supposed to take care of his family and by extension, society.

        So, Communism, basically.

        1. Hi iroll
          And your point being? Re communism. You’re actually talking about socialism…. I don’t know where you live though you sound very much like a US citizen…. do you know how large the communist party once was in the US?….pre and just after WWII?
          One of the most successful mass brainwashing exercises of the 20th century was Mccarthyism
          Oh no!! Reds under the bed!!

      9. Chihuahuamom,

        I would also say that one of the things that upset her the most is facing the reality is it could have been anyone… that she never really mattered… she was a delux toaster but a toaster would do just fine. She’s angry because it all didn’t matter… nothing ever mattered… it made no difference whether she stayed or she left so she should have left faster. She shouldn’t have let someone treat her like she’s less than when she was always better than any asshole she was with and was completely unappreciated. She’s mad she wasted her time and allowed everything to happen because she couldn’t just detach.

        Now … she can detach

      10. A pleasure ladies… and anyone else who gets a chance to read it.

        It’s very readable and imo its multidisciplinary approach is the way all academics should approach their work. Too many so called academics keep their heads stuck in their own discipline and thus are unable to apply their knowledge to reality/ the real world. Chris and Cacilda have ruffled some crusty academic feathers with their work. Rightly so, some, not all, 19th and 20th century anthropologists deserve the bashing they get. It’s origins are rooted in colonialism, that minor point seems forgotten by them.

      11. NarcAngel,

        Well if it means anything at all…I don’t think you’re a whore. Most people are closed minded and I’m sure these ‘moral whores’ were probably jealous of you because although I don’t know you in real life you have a strong personality that attracts people and I could see women like that being threatened by your ability to attract men.

        I do believe it’s hard for a lot of people to grasp that women are capable of having sex simply for the physical pleasure and nothing more. I do believe that is very much possible but more times than not (unfortunately) people are looking for love, approval, worth and attention in the wrong places.

        I completely see what you are saying re the church and what not; however is it possible that there was an evolutionary reason as to why the church spouts monogamy and all that? I mean… I can think of numerous reasons to be honest… but I was thinking of it at the moment from that evolutionary perspective. I must admit my knowledge on anything re religion is extremely limited. Although I am technically a jew I am agnostic/atheist and did not grow up religious.

        Again, I do not have the luxury of being able to have sex completely unattached which is why I don’t engage in it. I big piece of it is a trust issue and I need to feel connected to the person in some way. Another HUGE component for me is that I am a sapiosexual. I get bored. I also don’t like sharing lol. Basically all those factors mentioned above make it very difficult for me to find a partner that would check off all of my boxes.

      12. /iroll
        I don’t know I think there are other options and gray areas.
        Imo, the underlying premise of monogamy being about a man paying for a woman and his family is that a person is somewhat “owned” sexually, so if a woman “cheats” then he can remove her support system as a punishment. And…vice versa, which happens all the time.
        But I absolutely think that a person can have a fully emotionally committed relationship without monogamy. I have seen it happen.
        It’s not easy and I don’t have a specific answer to propose.
        But I like monogamy. I wish I was able to maintain it, but I wasn’t.

        I think most people like temporary monogamy. For example, almost every single person I speak to who swears they couldn’t do it any other way is already divorced, many with children. Often working on a second family with a new spouse. I usually think they’re a little confused. One of my reasons for having a more open opinion about it is because of that fact, because I understand that their dynamic was well-intended and they believed in it and because it is too easy to fall into an abusive relationship, a dead bedroom, a mistake, to end up being legally controlled by a narcissist, have your needs completely ignored, or just plain be guilt-tripped. In my dreams two people would fight for each other to the death and do anything to make things work and learn how to overcome their bad patterns and find a balance of love and self- not really the alternative where we tell them what that theoretically would look like if they were forced to act out all the ideal behaviors and pretend nothing is wrong.
        But yeah, I also see the difficulty when incentive is removed, but I also have this idea where we move beyond social pressure as the main incentive because it seems a little wild to me that it would be a one-size-fits-all best case scenario.
        Ideals are always a little fantastical anyway, so I don’t know.

      13. Hey NA, dragging this one up from the stacks but I think it’s really relevant? When is it cheating?

        Personally, it happens right from the beginning.This is based on what our initial expectations are. Are we dating for giggles, want long term, fuck buddies or even just friendship? I think what you say at that point in time is the get-go.

        The dynamic must evolve (positive or negative) and thus corrections must be placed at each juncture. Well, that’s what I think about it anyway.

        I’ve had plenty and I mean plenty of men who sit in front of me and swear blind they want LT only for them to be really after a ONS.

        Stupid, stupid fuckers. They wouldn’t be sat in front of me if I didn’t even consider the fucking angle. Or indeed the FUCKING angle?!

        So when they are in front of me, merrily lying their heads off about LTR’s and getting ever more increasingly nervous and anxious at the lack of reaction from me coupled with the gently probing questions – I have already ‘binned’ them in my head. Now, I use it as a way of gaining truth for myself. I obviously try very hard to make them squirm, really hard, in the seats. And, it’s not difficult.

        But their comments, the tiny little malignant Hoovers can and do hurt.

    3. Bibi,

      No I’m not but I have some traits. I’m actually adhd and oppositionally defiant I think that’s why people get confused at times.

      According to HG’s classification system – I’m a magnet super empath.

      1. Harley,

        I could be wrong about you, in that case I apologize. Doesn’t mean I like your attitude. But I looked it up:

        Oppositionally defiant (ODD):

        -Angry and irritable mood:

        -Often and easily loses temper
        -Is frequently touchy and easily annoyed by others
        -Is often angry and resentful

        Argumentative and defiant behavior:

        -Often argues with adults or people in authority
        -Often actively defies or refuses to comply with adults’ requests or rules
        -Often deliberately annoys or upsets people
        -Often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior


        -Is often spiteful or vindictive
        -Has shown spiteful or vindictive behavior at least twice in the past six months

        Were are all these traits in your Avatar, Harley? How can anyone with a disorder as such, be a therapist? I know, 95% of all psychologists have some kind of disorder/ mental illness, that’s why they studied Psychology in the first place.

        I have been in therapy 3 times in my life, with 5 different therapists:

        -an ‘i don’t know – i am even more nervous and scared than you are’ – kind of guy
        -a sexual disturbed/aroused older man (group therapy), still get the shivers thinking about him and the things he said
        -an alcoholic female (group therapy, can still smell the alcohol)
        -a woman that did not get my narcissist husband to talk (not even one answer), because she didn’t know what to ask
        -a therapist that was yawning every single minute. When I asked him why he was yawning so much (do I have a monotone voice, are you testing my empathy..?), he looked all shocked and surprised and while smiling, said he was just tired. Well, besides that he was a good man I think, only been in his profession and musty office too many years.
        Mentioning all this just to show why people go from one therapist to another and don’t get the right help.

        Anyway Harley, whatever you are, I wish you well.

        1. You get the right help here because I am clear about what I am and how you can all harness that to your advantage.

      2. Blank,

        You don’t have to like my attitude it’s completely fine. I don’t hit every single thing on the criteria. Let me put it this way – I don’t like being told what to do and am not fond of authority. I can be playfully annoying – I don’t do things in a nasty ill-intention kind of way. I am extremely empathetic despite my disorder(s). I actually work with a variety of mental health conditions but prefer certain populations. I can understand why you would be confused as to why/how someone like that could be a therapist but its not a cut and dry – black and white situation. Some of my favorite psychologists and most talented ones that I have known have ADHD, ODD, Anxiety and Depression. I never let my own issues get in the way of my work. I must admit they can sometimes get in the way of things in my romantic relationships – for example I can sometimes be irritable – but that also has to do with emotional regulation issues as they pertain to ADHD. I am not perfect – I’m flawed – and I try to live my life not telling people how to live theirs. I essentially believe that people want to be accepted for who they are and try to be as nonjudgmental as possible. I know you don’t like me – that is okay – not everyone is going to like everyone. I certainly wouldn’t want to say anything to hurt you or upset you. I know my letter to the narcissist really triggered you. I can understand that; however all I wanted was for you to understand me….

        I process things differently than you do and that is okay. I hate feeling like a victim so I wrote my letter from a narcissistic perspective – my own. It helped me heal. The narcissistic traits I possess come out when I feel I am really being attacked. I’m not talking about some petty crap – I’m talking about when someone is trying to really come for me as a person. So yes I can be vindictive but you have to do something absolutely awful to me and I have bounds I don’t go for the jugular because I would feel absolutely terrible if I did. Even if there was a moment where I could say the worst of the worst to someone in a moment of anger – I wouldn’t because I know the damage it causes and you can’t come back from that. I don’t have the heart for that. When I was younger I’m talking teenager – I may have gone to darker places because of the lack of emotional regulation. As I’ve gotten older clearly I have matured and I have evolved through my own experiences and what not.

        I will never tell anyone how to be or behave and accept people for how they are. I have the type of personality where you love me or hate me and I understand that. All I ever wanted was the freedom to be myself without being judged…to feel how i want to feel without someone telling me how I should feel and process things. I would give you the same…..

        1. Dr Q
          “All I ever wanted was the freedom to be myself without being judged…to feel how i want to feel without someone telling me how I should feel and process things.”

          Isn’t that true for all of us? Well…maybe not ALL we ever wanted…

      3. Blank,

        My avatar is not a skull. It is the Myers Briggs ENFJ profile….

        Look closer at the picture. I’m not being an ass – I’m telling you to look closer at the picture and look up the personality profile ENFJ.

      4. Yes, thank you Mr. Tudor. I see red flags all over my retina these days. But you know what? I’m just about to go to a Greek restaurant and I’ll make sure the amount of Ouzo will make me forget the existance of narcs. 🥃🥂Yamas!!

      5. To be honest, I never liked the term ‘Super Empath’ largely because it leaves some nebulous description in my mind. I have read the article many times but I think I need a real world example to understand.

        The Chris Watts example of a Middle Lesser makes absolute sense and now I know when I see one.

        The other empath descriptions refer to something specific that puts something or some action in mind, but Super does not–at least for me.

        Just being ‘feisty’ doesn’t feel like enough. My Mid Ranger told me I was ‘too feisty’ for his taste (but he made an exception for me–how kind of him) but I also suffer from moods and can be very withdrawn within my own sadness, leading to self-absorption and at times, even self-pity.

        But then I can also be entertaining and up lifting. I never remain one way for very long, it seems.

        1. Bibi,

          I agree with this:

          “To be honest, I never liked the term ‘Super Empath’ largely because it leaves some nebulous description in my mind. I have read the article many times but I think I need a real world example to understand.”

          I have a hard time grasping the concept of a Super Empath and recognizing someone as such. A real world example would mostly certainly be helpful.

          1. WhoCares
            “I have a hard time grasping the concept of a Super Empath and recognizing someone as such. A real world example would mostly certainly be helpful.”

            I completely agree with this. It took me forever to feel I had a real grasp on the concept of “superempath.” It seems like it ought to be a super empathic person – someone with almost no narc traits. But apparently it is almost the opposite. Why does it make an empath “super” to have strong narc traits and blow up using her narc traits for vengeance when she feels abused (no offense to all of you SEs out there)? I can understand why HG might consider them super since they are more challenging and “fun.” Maybe that’s why he came up with the name.

            I think my daughter is one. I use her as my real-life example. But while being very empathic and caring, she is prickly and even dangerous to me and my mental health (what little I have Lol!). She can be VERY hurtful to me and others who love her and has often laughed about how she manipulated me. That does not make her seem “super” to me. At least not super anything desirable.

          2. I was thinking about this today, Windstorm. Maybe I am wrong but a SE is in the supernova, not in the empathy/hurt. A co-dependent might stamp her pretty feet and pout; an empath might leave in a huff; a super empath might threaten to call in the hit men?

          3. SMH
            Ha, ha! I agree with you, except the SEs I know wouldn’t need hit men. They’d plan and carry out their revenge themselves, then smile as they tell everyone about it. 😄

          4. That’s what I did, Windstorm, planned it, carried it out, gloated. But if I’d had access to hit men, I would have gone that route so as to not get my hands dirty :-).

          5. Thank-you for this Windstorm; your daughter definitely sounds like a *challenge*…and your description helps a bit. I guess maybe where I’m stuck is if the Super Empath’s behaviour is only defensive, as in reaction to abuse…or offensive – and therefore can be hurtful without cause. Or both?

          6. WhoCares
            Well if my daughter is a good example of a SE….her behavior goes waaay beyond defensive. It’s definitely offensive. She makes sure she suffers no abuse and no one near her suffers any abuse. She would always think she has cause, because it is the responsibility of all good people to see that people in their environment are treated fairly.

            She lays the law down to all of us. We all have to toe the line. She doesn’t ever complain about something being unfair. She fixes it so it’s fair according to her standards. She puts up with no lip from anyone and runs her house like a Marine Drill Sargent.

            There’s not the level of freedom that I require, but there is a ton of love and consideration for others. “Kindness” is the rule. She is always asking one of the children, “Was that a kind thing to do(say)?” Or pointing out some behavior on tv or outside and saying, “That wasn’t kind, was it? What should they have done?”

            She is a doer, not a done to. She has a large selfish streak and is incredibly stubborn. She tends to see things as black and white, rather than shades of grey. She thinks that my own views of open-minded tolerance, ideas of personal freedom and belief that truth is relative are all stupid. Period. Obviously some things are true and some things are best and what’s true and best is what’s going to happen in her house!

          7. Windstorm

            “She thinks that my own views of open-minded tolerance, ideas of personal freedom and belief that truth is realtive are all stupid. Period.”

            Well except for the above…er…well…as for the rest of it…er…

            I cant stop laughing.

          8. Thank-you Windstorm for describing your daughter. You sound very proud of her, despite whatever qualities you fault her for.

          9. WS, no offense, but your daughter sounds like a bitch to live with. I would have to stay in a hotel. Parenting is an exercise in guidance, not control IMO. They are not possessions, they are people.

          10. MB
            No offense taken. I often pity her husband, but she has a lot of good qualities, too. They both want 6 kids and you probably have to have strong discipline to get that to work without some kids abusing and bullying others or some left out. She doesn’t see them as possessions, but as little people who must be molded and shaped.

            Hotel is not an option. Not only could I not afford it, but it would vastly curtail the amount of time to spend with the grandkids. And i am here to help out my daughter and SIL also by babysitting, watching kids at night and keeping all the dishes done.

            I am about at the end of my tolerance, though. I have today and tomorrow left before I can head home Tuesday. My little cabin in the woods is calling to me with its peace, freedom and comfort. My little dog keeps putting his feet on my knee and staring questioning into my eyes. I tell him, “Moins que deux jours, petit. Moins que deux jours.”
            (“Less than 2 days” – his French is much better than his English 😄)

          11. Windstorm, everybody has a different idea about raising children. I’m sure she would be mortified at the way I’ve allowed mine to “follow their bliss” and would no doubt think they are spoiled. (They are!) But I’ve raised two young men that make me very proud to be their mama.

            I love the French! I took three years of it in high school and can’t speak a lick. I had a shitty teacher. I should’ve been fluent in three years! I remember some vocab and a few phrases is all.

            Poor doggie. He wants his cabin too. There really is no place like home.

            I was going to say he is probably the only pup in KY whose French is better than his English, but then I thought, there might be plenty of French-speaking folks living in the state. That reminded me of a funny conversation my husband and I had once. He asked me if I thought dogs that lived with Mexicans could understand Spanish. I thought he was kidding. Then he realized how ridiculous his thought was, and we both laughed until we cried. Where the hell did he think they would learn English 😂

      6. Harley honestly, your words here do not match with anything you have mentioned in your comments over the years, speaking about all your narcs. It looks like you have a split personality and in this case I’ve listened to the doctor (the cognitive empath).
        You continue to engage with ‘narcissists’ (despite your knowledge) and everytime after you get bored with them come here to burn them down and let us know what an idiots they are. Why Harley? It’s obvious you purposefully engage with them. I never hear any sympathy nor love coming from you, about any of your relationships. How am I to believe you are an empath? Okay, the nastiness in your comments may be your disorders coming to the front. Perhaps I mix ODD with narcissism.. but I am not so sure about that.
        Harley, it’s not a matter of loving or hating you or even liking you, it is a matter of trust. I do not trust your words here.This is my gut feeling and I live with that, untill it tells me otherwise. Wishing you well anyways.

      7. Harley, I didn’t say your avatar was a skull, I said it should be a skull (or a big N), as a warning sign.You need to read carefully doctor.
        And, I did have a close look at the Avatar, that is why I said where are all your other (ODD) traits mentioned in this Avatar?
        The words in this head are not about you, it is about protagonists.
        It is a given that narcissists like to associate themselves with ‘good qualities’, famous people, anything for their appearance. Musician narc for instance will always use hashtags like “brilliantmusicians”, in the hope he will be associated with that. He is not brilliant at all, he is just a musician, who studies his music so he’ll be able to play with the band. You put up this Avatar so people will associate these qualities with you.Well, you do whatever you like to do. I shouldn’t be telling you how to act here. Be yourself.
        For the rest I refer to my other comment I wrote this morning.

        1. Blank
          “You put up this Avatar so people will associate these qualities with you.”

          None of us know why someone else picks a certain Avatar. I personally would think that people choose their avatar or their name because they believe it represents them or maybe represents some aspect of themselves. That’s why I chose mine. I’ve never even wondered what anyone else thought about them.

          I think we’re better off if we focus on supporting others and in our own healing. Just my two cents worth.

      8. God help me if I try to find an avatar that describes my personality. I may turn this into an activity later. Maybe it should be something of a statement of intent. Or a philosophical leaning. A hobby?
        And with that…
        I am off to therapy.

      9. Or not even necessarily a real world example, but a fictional character Super-Empath would do.

        I was having this sentimental moment yesterday. I pulled from my drawer a pair of old, striped socks that I’d barely worn. I remember that my mom got them for me as part of a gift back in like…1999? So they’re very old but mostly unworn.

        Upon seeing them I started to cry because I started remembering that time in my life, and the Gap store from where she purchased them, and how she since moved out of state and so I’ll never return to that location again and how everything in the past is so comforting because you know what is going to happen.

        She chose them because they went with the shirt, and I imagined all the thought she put into purchasing this and how one day she will be gone and I will only have these socks. I just made myself sad again. Over socks. Ridiculous.

      10. @Windstorm (sept 13 14.56)

        About the Avatar: ‘I never even wondered…. ‘
        That is because you are an empath, Windstorm!

        ‘I think we’re better off if we focus on supporting…’
        You are absolutely right. I will shut up.

      11. Blank,

        I put this avatar up because the profile ENFJ and the traits that go along with it represent me completely. I’ve taken the test. In fact…I took it in High School and took it again a few years ago and got the same result.

        A person can be more than one thing. Things aren’t so black and white. I’m kind of like an Alanis Morrisette song lmao.

      12. Blank,

        If you don’t like me you don’t have to engage with me – that is totally cool. I know what I am…HG knows EXACTLY what I am…and a large percentage of the people here know what I am. I have to live with myself so at the end of the day so it really doesn’t matter what other people think it only matters what I think of myself.

        The truth of the matter is you don’t have to trust me. Unfortunately, your intuition in this situation has pointed you in the wrong direction. You clearly have been through a lot – in fact a lot of us here have – but I feel for you because you have such mistrust for people. To be fair…I do too so I can’t fault you for that. I’m not asking for your acceptance and I’m not asking for your trust; however I am asking that you please refrain from telling me who and what I am and what I am not. It’s okay if you don’t understand me…you don’t have to. I’m not out to get you or hurt you or anyone for that matter. I have been through a lot as well and I have feelings just like you do. I have the mentality “why can’t we all just get along” lol.

      13. WS,
        about your daughter.
        I was reading one of HG’s posts the other day and I read about “Savior” Super Empath. I know someone who behaves like you describe and I almost posted on that article the question:
        “is it possible a narc can behave like this Super Savior Empath and be a narc not empath?”

        Lol, I feel I post too much sometimes, so I left that one because I wasn’t clear on my question.
        But I did, before I even ever saw this blog, come to the conclusion for myself that the person I know is a narc. She doesn’t do what you are saying exactly, but she is military style in her house and supposedly puts her kids first, but like MB was mentioning, I don’t think she is aware at all that she is treating her kids like appliances to how she thinks things should be- her version of “right” that she sees as superior. I would never have it in me to see my kids that way and THEIR point of view is of great importance.
        Your daughter doesn’t sound like a super empath to me at all.
        I believe a super empath, even a savior, would be doing this kind of thing to correct an actual, true wrong and not aim it at manipulating things to their own view for everyone around them, that seems excessively narcissistic to me.

        But likely for my conclusion for an individual I would fall back on seeing if actual concrete N traits come out.
        The person I knew attempted to create a broad smear campaign against one individual for some minor infraction that she had a moral problem with, making it appear as though she had moral high ground. I don’t fall for that shit, and that N behavior was the last straw for me and I don’t abide by scapegoating, harmful malicious gossip, and intentions that are clearly about hurting not helping and I haven’t spoken to her since.
        Another thing I noticed is that her feigned SSE behaviors appeared to actually *mimic* empath behaviors (sometimes mine and blatantly so, she tried to do things to me once using MY empathic reasoning against me). She was *copying* what she thought to be right, she does not have an internal guide. The truth about me is that if I am wrong about something, I will change my mind 100% because I fear things that are not the truth guiding things- she is stubborn as hell and has to be right all the time at all cost.

        1. Nunya biz
          If my description of my daughter ended up sounding like a narc to you, then I must have done a poor job describing her. She is definitely NOT a narc -no way on Earth. She is a very caring, loving person. She does not smear, she does not scapegoat and she does not gossip. She has a very strong internal compass.

          That said, she does have some strong narc traits, but so do all super empaths. She is lazy and selfish. But she is very empathic. She understands how other people feel. But she’s not bleedingly empathic like I am. She doesn’t actually feel all the pain she sees. But while I sit quietly feeling all this pain, she steps in to do something to fix it.

          Her Drill Sargent behavior is in raising her children. That IS in response to correcting actual, true wrongs. She prevents one child from bullying or hurting another child. She drills into them to constantly use their empathy to think about how others feel and what others are thinking and need. She sees her job in life is to successfully raise her horde of children into caring, confident, Christian people and to have her home filled with love and happiness. I really do believe she fits HGs description of a SE.

      14. WS,
        I love your description of her. She sounds not like the woman I know, but your first outline, which I knew was incomplete reminded me of her and I thought it was interesting.
        You are so smart and I’d actually originally typed in my first response about not knowing enough about your daughter to actually draw a comparison, but I then edited it out due to always trying to type clearly and directly on these comments so that it isn’t wishy-washy, long and hard to read. Next time I’ll make sure to leave my qualifiers so I can make more clear my thought/intention : )
        What she is trying to do is admirable and I think I do some similar things, just from probably a far looser framework.

        I am still curious about the woman I dealt with and maybe later will discuss it on a thread about her type of character, but I guess it seems to me like she is trying to emulate a type like your daughter, super empath, but her kids suffer because she is actually narcissistic and doesn’t know it comes out wrong/hurtful because she has the image in mind more than the internal compass. I felt frustrated with the situation until I finally figured out that something was completely off and would never be changed. She would attack people based on the “moralities” without listening and adjusting, it was labelled and decided and people would get hurt.
        Anyway, thanks for “listening” and for clarifying and I am not surprised to hear your response on it as your are perceptive beyond what we can write here and sorry for overlapping my comment into your circumstance, I was interested in the distinction

        1. Nunya biz
          The printed word is a very imperfect way to communicate. Misunderstandings happen all the time. Sometimes we aren’t even sure what we want to say, but even if we are sure, that doesn’t mean those who read what we write will understand. I know I often have the problem of thinking I am being very clear because I understand what I mean to say, then realize later that my writing didn’t convey my meaning. We just have to keep communicating, asking and answering questions.
          I always enjoy talking with you. ❤️

      15. Harley, I understand that your avatar is based on the myers-briggs test, but that test has been mostly abandoned by current psychologists. It is frequently used by businesses to classify employee development (it is a money maker), but has been proven to have little accuracy as a predictor of employee success.

        There are more recent personality assessments that have been shown to be slightly more accurate, however, most personality tests are not considered valid or demostrable, some are even bias toward sexist results. They try to fit personality into neat little boxes.

    4. Hi dr. H….Welcome back! Youve been missed and i hope youve been well. I wanted to ask you a question bc ive been doing the same of myself and find it useful in regards to observing my thoughts and the way i am. I have a few friends i help in regards to narcissistic relationships and i think sometimes its easier to help another person more than ourselves.
      So my question is this….if you had a client come to you and present with everything youve told us here including your letter to the narcissist what advice or feedback would you give them? If i remember correctly you work with children but if you did or do work with adult clients what would you say to them in a therapy session based on what youve told us about yourself?
      I find this way interesting bc it allows a person to think away from themselves. When ive asked myself what id tell another i dont always like the answer and being stubborn tend to ignore it lol
      Thx so much and its good to have you back 🙂

      1. Chihuahuamom,

        That was very sweet of you to say! I hope you are doing well and was wondering about your current situation. Can you refresh my memory on your narcissist situation and the status of your healing?

        I often pose the questions to myself that you asked me. I currently work with adolescents who are extremely emotionally disturbed 13-21 yrs. I actually will be working with even older adults soon because I am going into private practice as a side situation and will probably be working for an agency that does evaluations as well so my age range will be all over the place. Anyway getting back to your original question(s)…..

        I would say that this person is a very sensitive person who was hurt and taken advantage of and becomes angry as a way to avoid feelings of depression. She’s angry at herself mostly. I would say this person is a strong person who feels weak at times because she recognizes she allowed someone to take advantage of her and treat her like shit not because she didn’t see the signs and through the bullshit but because she couldn’t let go and she wanted to believe that maybe there was some kind of hope. she had to try and make it work and was afraid of starting over and being alone again. She plays games to protect herself – she doesn’t instigate them. She felt she was left with no choice. She has to win… losing isn’t an option in these situations so sometimes she ends up hurting herself in order to hurt the other person. She realizes now it’s never worth hurting yourself to hurt someone else. She understands that is not worth the energy and the time. She realizes she was probably never actually really loved by any boyfriend she has ever had even though she realizes she is lovable and she accepts herself. She feels like she’s lost control and is powerless so she has to take the power back. The behavior she presents is a way for her to take her power back and she does. Her anger is what pushes her forward and motivates her to better and it helps her survive.

        What I would tell her is that she has always had the power and when shit looks weird or suspicious trust your instincts and stop giving people benefit of the doubt even tho I know she will anyway from time to time. I would tell her Power is often an illusion.

        I would tell her to forgive herself for trying to believe that someone could actually be a nice person and for putting all the energy she has into the people she thought she cared about. I would tell her it will get better and the anger will fade to indifference and that’s when you know you are free. I would tell her to looking inside herself to figure out what parts of herself weren’t whole and were vulnerable to being prayed upon. I would tell her she’s been making better choices and that she values herself much more than she did years ago. I would tell her to focus on improving herself and her life and something will come along. I would tell her to weigh each relationship and if she isn’t benefitting to cut the person out. I would tell her there is hope. Finally, I would tell her once again to forgive herself for caring….

      2. Hi Dr. H…Ty for your reply it shows the real you and also how far youve come. I find it helpful to reflect on myself this way and am trying to be more mindful of my thoughts about myself and others as well as my moods and how and why they may be triggered.
        I wanted to bring up what youd said about how narcissists are exciting and you feel drawn to them. I know ive felt this as well with my narc and from what ive learned its complex bc its so many reasons why we can feel this way and be bored in a healthy mediocre or what we percieve as mediocre relationship. One is that its an addiction and there are physiological reactions in the mind that bind us to the fast paced excited state whether good or bad they put us in. It takes time away from this toxicity to detox and form new healthier views on whats attractive or worth pursuing.
        I think too some individuals unknowingly choose those they know can never commit or be fully available bc deep down they feel they dont deserve someone who will treat them respectfully and love them. Its self sabatoging. Healthy love with boundaries is foreign to them so they choose whats familiar and know the outcome already so it feels safer.
        These are a few reasons ive come across.
        It sounds like your career is moving along and thriving! Congrats!
        Ty for sharing and being honest its appreciated.
        As far as my own situation im still with my narc but there have been some improvements but i still struggle to end the relationship. Im hoping to get back into therapy soon and work on myself. Its been a learning journey!

      3. Chihuahuamom,

        You always have very insightful responses and I’m thinking about what you’ve said because I’ve considered that self-sabotaging behavior theory…

        I find myself more attracted to psychopaths -that is what I’m actually drawn to and they are attracted to me. It’s a very strange attraction. I usually can get them to admit to me what they are pretty quickly because I make them feel comfortable and I don’t judge them. There are others that don’t know what is “wrong” with them but know they are different….

        It’s strange because we are so different but I find something relatable about them. They have such a presence. I can like smell them and sense them from across a room it’s bizarre. It’s weird but I feel like they understand me. They don’t judge me. I can relate to feeling like an outsider even though it looks like I fit in. I don’t fake it while they do – well some do. I admire them in some ways. They have a freedom that I don’t have.

        I would like to believe I would be able to find an empath who could excite me and love me for me and not judge me but there Is always something missing. They have the emotional empathy but lack the cognitive. They typically can’t evaluate situations as quickly and accurately as I can and I want someone who can see through the bullshit on that next level and psychopaths can do that. Also …I should mention I don’t usually have sex with and get completely involved with the people I’m insanely attracted to because I know how the story ends..

        I find myself in what feels like a no win situation … be with a psychopath who understands me mentally and can appreciate and handle my edgy nature but won’t be able to emotionally fulfill me and will at some point abuse me OR be with an empath that bores me that doesn’t understand me accept my edgy ways or stimulate me the way I need and essentially feel like im alone anyway….

        So let me throw a quick example that happened like the other day lol – I briefly for literally a hot second talked to some older lawyer (probably about ten years older) – looked young – he was I guess attractive but he had such a presence – he was so smooth and insanely verbal and there was something kinda like … dark about him – he felt familiar …. he felt psychopathic lol. I could tell he was very intelligent. We were both attracted to eachother however we both said at the same time no joke … “this isn’t gonna work” – lmao – he wanted someone submissive and I’m not submissive and wasn’t about to play that shit lol. We’ve established i don’t be like being told what to do lol. It appeared as though he wanted some kind of automaton. There was however a strange respect there and some bizarre attraction. I rarely feel that attraction. He was trouble for me and I was trouble for him so we parted ways lol. There was nothing to gain from our interaction on either side so we easily went out separate ways…. lmao

      4. Chihuahuamom,

        I should state I’m not attracted to all types of psychopaths – some I won’t go near – there’s a particular type of psychopath that I seem to be attracted to – not those creepy rapey ones – I’m not batshit lmao 🤣🤣

        By the way I spoke too soon – the lawyer who I suspect is a high functioning psychopath just texted me – it’s 10:40 over here lmao 😂

      5. Chihuahuamum,

        The older lawyer who I was speaking about in my previous post has been texting me like crazy. What I thought could just be some like light entertainment is now actually starting to irritate me because he appears to be taking my openness and what not for weakness – has to be the one asking me questions – doesn’t answer anything and is trying to test me and my reactions. Of course he thinks he’s smarter than me which is fine because I’m sitting here laughing. This is essentially turning into a power struggle and it is starting to irritate me. I luckily have enough self control to no longer engage in this shit and want to assert MY DOMINANCE over him lmao (progress …baby steps lol)… I’m simply going to disengage because I am gaining nothing from our interaction. I’m not going to let him attempt to extract information from me and try to assert his dominance over me. See how fast I lose that attraction lmao? Excuse me while my narcissistic traits shine for a moment and I say “this is so beneath me” lmao….

        These psychopaths and narcissists keep pushing my Oppositional Defiant buttons lmao….that is not a way to get what you want with me lmao…playing games…. ::shaking my head::….not the wayyyy lmao.

  5. A metric story

    I went to Ikea with plans for a cabinet. I had it in feet and inches and figured we would work out the metric deal there. So I start to explain the size I need when the Ikea employee interrupts me mid sentence……

    IE: (with obvious boredom and disdain) We deal in centimetres.
    NA: (with a laugh) Well I only know feet and inches so I’m afraid we’ll need an interpreter.
    IE: (in a condescending tone) You just take the number and………
    NA: (still trying to keep it light and taking into account that she is young). Im sure I could learn as you could learn my way but I dont have the time or inclination today so …
    IE: (with attitude that says:youre old and stupid): Its really not that hard.
    NA (does this low rent little bitch really think she can talk to people this way? Omg her mouth is still moving…and I raise my hand to stop her. My husband smiles).
    No. You know whats really not hard? Manners and respect. Congratulations on knowing a bunch of numbers but my condolences on failing to learn the basic skills for dealing with people, especially given that you are in an entry level position and appear destined to remain there for life if you can just hold on. Now go and find me someone with more manners and respect than you-the janitor perhaps, that can help me with this 4 FOOT, 4 INCH Shitzinstor or whatever you call it cabinet.

    Fuck metric
    Fuck narcky little clerks
    To be fair-still love IKEA and never had any other problems there.

    1. OMG NarcAngel!

      You love IKEA? That place is like a rat maze with only one exit! I went to one in Kansas with my daughter and we literally had to walk thru the entire store, every aisle to get to the one exit. Hating to shop, I always want to go straight to what I want and straight out again. IKEA is the diametric opposite of that.

      I like what my 5 year old grandson said when we asked him if he’d like to go with us, “No thank you. I’ve already been there.”

        1. Ha, ha, HG! You and my little grandson think alike!

          He is very smart and polite, also. He’s just 6 and can already count to 10,000. Also, sadly appears to have no natural empathy. We’re all working hard to teach him cognitive empathy, though, and why it’s to his benefit to be kind to others. Super empath mother and slightly empathic father, no abuse in his home. I have high hopes he’ll turn out to be a very good man.

          I’ll get to see him this morning when he wakes up. Just got out here to Kansas a few hours ago. My daughter is a strict task mistress. She makes him get up early to have both a piano and a violin lesson before he goes to kindergarten. Her house is very regimented, but also very full of love. Hopefully it is the type of environment he and all his siblings need.

      1. I think Ikea has a good price quality (design) ratio in general. Probably the quality is not good for many with higher salaries, but for me it is enough. So I am right next to NA regarding her enthusiasm for IKEA.
        However, I do HATE the way they make you go through the whole damn shop, especially if you only want to buy candles. So I get you WS and HG. The secret is not to go on weekends and identify where the shortcuts are.
        But when I feel like decorating my house, IKEA is the place for me. I am already decorating in my head with IKEA furniture an apartment I haven’t even got! (crossing my fingers to get it).

      2. Re: IKEA – I’m with Windstorm and HG on this one. Hell on Earth! I went once and couldn’t get out fast enough either. The only place worse is Chuck E Cheese. Forget the fire and brimstone. If there’s a hell, it’s eternal damnation to Chuck E Cheese without pizza. They do give you day passes to leave for “respite”, though. The choices are IKEA, Disney World or Costco on Saturday mornings.

      3. Re ikea:
        Novices all of you lol. I walked through the first time (quickly) to get the layout. After that I knew where to shortcut and exactly where to go to get what I need. In and out. Putting the stuff together is easy and I do it myself (I dont need assistance and Ive done kitchens, wardrobes etc) so I’ve always thought these people who say its hard must be retarded. A lot of the stuff is too weird and I wouldn’t use it, but there is a lot of stuff of good quality if you have an imagination.

        No shock that HG doesnt like it. He’s too rich and posh and has determined chains and big stores are “for the great unwashed” lol (no really-thats his line and one that makes me laugh everytime given what he is and what he does).

      4. NA, I know exactly where to go too and have built a lot of furniture on my own! I am not a novice! (never built a kitchen tough – Chapeau if you built one on your own).
        Actually, I was very surprised to read HG had visited IKEA once. Must have been during a golden period with one of his very numerous appliances. Guess he took a shower as soon as he got home.

    2. NA, except for the “Fuck metric” part. I find your comment amusing.

      Just one question. I read that there is a lot of laughter in your couple, and was wondering if you are the one that makes the jokes and both of you laugh together, or if he makes you laugh too.


      1. Hi Lou
        He is far funnier than I will ever be, and lightning fast as well. He can also say the most heinous things to people and they still love him and want to be around him. Its fascinating. There have not been too many days in all these years that he has not made me laugh.

  6. NarcAngel

    Re Metric sucks etc

    You: “Agreed. He gave me all 25.4 centimetres” just doesnt have the same ring.”


      1. Hahaha ..or 25.4 even!!!!
        friggin’ hell… 10 inches.
        Saddle up! I’m splitting my sides here!!
        Thankfully it IS just my sides!!

    1. Actualy, I googled which men had the largests.. and it’s the men from Congo. 17.4 average😄
      (by the way.. I found out I’ll probably never date a Japanese guy 😁)

  7. Ahhh HG I got your age now , you must be over 45 , anyone under the 40 mark was raised with metric ,not inches and feet and haven’t a clue what a foot measurement is are , all metres ,cms etc.
    Most people over 45 / 50 still go with inches etc and dislike the metric system .


    1. HG I feel like I am failing , allowed narc to Hoover , now I’m back to silent treatment again.Will I ever break out , Wish I could consult with you right now ,will have to wait it out until I can though.
      I’m strong but obviously not strong enough .

      1. Kiki,
        I get this. I allowed the same thing this past weekend and eventually got myself a good silent treatment as well. It sent me into a total panic, and I backed away again.
        We all have to go through the cycles. It is easy to read here and think you are weak, but you are just experiencing what you need to, time and again, to get to the place where you reach your point of no return.
        Hang in there. You will get stronger every time you go through it, that I can say with certainty, because you see the truth more every time.

      2. Welcome to The Hotel California Kiki, “you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.”

        Once you have been here for a while, HG is waiting at checkout with the keys to freedom. So there is hope and you will get stronger in time.

  8. Quasi,

    I actually embraced the DE streak long ago. I was in a toxic relationship, with issues if my own and found myself attracted to a colleague. For the record he was one of two male nurses where I worked so I was not the only one. I realized that when I was having issues in my personal relationships I would begin “looking” outside for fulfilment. That has happened numerous times and I never acted on it but recognized it and would pull away from that particular person and avoid them. This was the same issue with the Narc. I has issues in my marriage and found him attractive charming etc. I went into shut down mode and made no attempt to engage.

    On the flip side he did. I received special treatment at work etc. I talked to my friend asking her opinion and she told me more than likely he just thought I was nice and a good worker. So I basically ignored my gut and well, now I’m here.

    I told my husband Christmas Eve about the extent of my affair. Thankfully I was never actually physical with him. My husband recognized I was manipulated and I believe now understands why I call him narcissist. The fact that he has a long history of this and that I consider myself to be intelligent and thoughtful helped my case. We are much stronger for it.

    1. Hi wounded,

      Thank you for sharing this with me. I’m really unsure how things are going to go. I was unfaithful and slept with the narcissist so my husband may not be as forgiving as yours. I’m scared of the truth but that is also the best reason to face it, I don’t want to be afraid of the unknown, or stuck with what is growing between us. I also want to give him the choice of what he wants too.
      Thank you again wounded, your posts are very helpful, supportive, and appreciated.

      1. Sending hugs. You are not alone by any stretch. You are a strong honest person and the things narcs see as weakness are also the things that are a saving grace. You sound like you have a great support system in place which is going to be a huge help. Whatever happens I believe you will come out even stronger and wiser.

      1. How can it be that one hasn’t come at you ever?

        Actually, my great grandfather did! My great grandmother bobbed her hair in the roaring twenties & had an affair with the milkman. My great grandfather got his gun, got into a fight with him and killed the man.

        My great grandmother, Carla, went off and remarried and had more kids while my great grandfather served some time in prison. Their children blamed my great grandfather for breaking up the family! Carla most certainly had the narc gene my mother inherited.

      2. You fibber HG. Of course you do. You will rely on your oral skills to get you out of the mess. You probably do of course but to not worry?

        Of course men worry when they are fucking about with others’ wives and girlfriends. A lesser is very likely to be on the cards. I once dated a lesser who was a full contact, mixed marital artist, ex cage fighter. He was also very sweet and kind and would readily get me taxis home or pay for meals. He was also incredibly jealous. I was his ‘Dirty Snow White’.

        Had this massive dog named ‘Logan’. He was a total sweetheart and adored me. That dog was trained to turn. He would climb on the bed and get between us whilst I petted and stroked him. That;s Logan, not the cage fighter. Funny that I could also control Logan. He was lovely. But fucking massive.

        Always tricky playing around with people who are in relationships.

          1. Yes… I am sure that I read once HG that you was in a car having sex with somebody’s girlfriend and he caught you in the car years ago.?? anyway something like that…
            and you blamed her said you didn’t know her status when you absolutely did.. because it was you who had seduced her… and it was all really bad and it all became her fault… you got away with it scott free and you was loving every minute of it?
            You definitely wasn’t worried…
            maybe I’m slightly inaccurate but it was a stoty along this line? Anyway it shows you definitely don’t worry.

          2. I’m sorry HG but I disagree. You are very probably meeting women who have an IP who are acquiescent. Or rather, they are cowards.

            I can assure you that there are men who I have personally and intimately known, who would quite happily pummel a man into the dirt. No question. My ex-H was one of these men. My God. Held a PhD and could fight like a bastard. The cage fighter, another. Another GEN was a skilled marital artist and sword fighter/fencer.

            I’ve even stopped fights. Little me. 5’4″.

            Men can and WILL fight over women. Most men do not understated how to fight. The men I pick tend to get this. They will also try, at points, on me as well.

            This is where the fun begins. It’s extremely difficult to intimidate me. Therefore, as an survivour of abuse, physical abuse is usually not one that is meted out to me by my partners. Because they will lose.

            Not because I am bigger or stronger. Obviously. Because I look them in the eye and DARE them to try. They ALWAYS back off. Something kicks in. I see it in their eyes.

            The ONLY time it got perhaps out of hand was when I was 15. PN was drunk. He started throwing things at me. I stood up to ‘represent’. Unfortunately, he backed me against a wall and I fell over. By the fireplace. He loomed over me. My 12 year old brother (lesser) stepped between us and said ‘Do NOT hit my sister’. He backed off.

            My father would slap me a lot on my face when I was a teenager if he deemed my going out clothes to be ‘inappropriate’. What did I do? I gave him the bird and did it anyway. Fuck. Him.

          3. Incorrect. Their intimate partner either does not know or has either made an attempt and been defeated or has had the sense to realise beforehand that notwithstanding their desire to beat me up, they will not succeed.

    1. Kelly, HG has expressed that he doesn’t worry that an appliance will physically hurt him either. I think “worry” is foreign to narcissists. I don’t think it’s something they do. There is something to be said for living in the moment. I wish I had all the energy back that I’ve spent worrying in my lifetime!

      1. True! But I didn’t mean ‘worry’ literally.

        But yes, less worrying would do me a lot of good. Let’s pillage the narc’s for their ‘goods’ & move on with something to make it all worthwhile.

  9. Everyone makes mistakes. Learn from them, grow, do not repeat them.

    I would have never thought I would have had an affair. I am truly sorry it happened. I 100% accept my responsibility in it.

    We all want to be decent, good, honest and loving. Mistakes don’t take away your right to be that and they don’t taint you. If that was the case, no one would be white.

    Forgive yourself and focus your energy on the ones you love. I understand the need to beat yourself up, cry, feel terrible and wretched. Cry, feel guilty. That means you care.

    But get up, be sorry, be forgiven and get up and fight.

    I was seduced by love bombing and sex. I participated. But I am done with that. I will pour all my love and energy into my marriage and my family and friends who need me. I will not let it get me down.

    There are more important things than sex. Beauty fades, the body gets old. Love never dies.

  10. Can I ask if any married DE has been exposed by their N? Either during or after, whether you got out or left you. I’m curious as it’s my biggest fear. I’m trying so hard to heal and plug the holes in my self esteem that caused it all, and it could all be for nothing.

    1. Yeah. Intriguing question. Depends on the school. I did function as a DLS for a GCN for 9 months but I was free (and faithful to him and only him) so he had nowt on me.

      So I say, get a sheet of paper and write down who he triangulated you with. The significant names; the ones the cropped up time and time again. It’s his fuel matrix and he has been (I can assure you), revealing it to you. THAT is your secret weapon. Fire enough arrows and a couple WILL hit their mark. That will panic and unnerve him. Whilst he is then wavering with this unexpected turn of events and if you feel you are capable, threaten to expose him to his IPPS. Recruit enough of his matrix on your side and your are onto a winner. He will have attempted to keep you all compartmentalised you see.

      Make it known that you know but in a subtle way. Fight fire with fire. Even with a Greater. Don’t live in fear. Ever.

      The majority of women who are presented with this will help each other. A few, (usually those that are married or in partnerships themselves) will turn their tails and run. Ignore them. Focus on the ones that want to help each other because their own fury has now been ignited.

      Ignore the whole ‘ethics’ of this situation because it is unhelpful.

      Do not allow yourself to be blackmailed. Ever. If push really does come to shove. Face him down and say three words;

      ‘Go on then’

      And that, I am sorry to say would be PatriNarchs’ advice.

      1. No. Doing this contravenes the golden rule of freedom. The heightened emotional thinking will mean the exercise just maintains high ET and will lead to the provision of fuel, continued engagement and misery.

        1. I agree with HG on this entirely. Part of the reason I contacted my narc a week ago was to try and be painted white and be seen as “on side” to try and avoid exposure by him. But it backfired on me emotionally.

          I had a near panic attack yesterday when he took me off the shelf, tried to manipulate me into some negative fuel, failed, and then switched gears and tried to gain sexual fuel. I then realized I have had the same low level anxiety all this past week that I used to feel all the time. It had been absent in the few months I wasn’t in contact with him. Realizing that being in contact with narc, waiting for the other shoe to drop, has given me constant negative emotions, is eye opening.
          Sometimes you don’t realize how bad you were feeling until you get a breath of fresh air, then are dunked back into the tank. The ongoing anxiety is far worse than the flares of ET and addiction I had during NC.

          I am now fully NC (not the half ass version I was before where I left some channels open and wished for him to contact me).

          I do agree with your opinion on blackmail Renarde, 100%. No way you’d get any fuel from me in that situation.

          1. What if you wish for your partner to miscarriage? What does that make or say about you?

      2. HG. Your blog and your books have saved my life. Literally.

        However, in this instance, I am going to contradict you. I will furnish this with a real life example.

        I was a DLS for a GCN for nine months a few years ago. I was single at the time. I NEVER cheat. He was married with one child. I knew what I was doing was morally wrong but he was offering something I needed. Help.

        He went too far. Kept on triangulating me too many times. I snapped. I sought her out. I told her what I suspected. That it wasn’t just me and her; there would be others too. There were. Many. His matrix. The third party came onside.

        To cut a long story short; in the middle of the day when I was at work, he deployed the Suicide Power Play. He asked MY permission for him to kill himself. I hit the fucking roof. Un-weaponised as I was at that time, I knew in my body that this was a manipulation. I called him on it but because he had expressed that intent it made me and the other woman back off from exposing him.

        But I couldn’t let it lie. Suicide is no joke. I rang him about a week later and said, ‘Go on, I give my permission for you to kill yourself. And I will too. I have my tablets right here. Go on now, to the shops. Get the paracetamol. We’ll do it together.’ (I was obviously lying. No intention of doing that. Or indeed letting him do that, although I rather suspected that would never happen)

        I could hear the panic in his voice. I’d called his bluff.

        ‘I’m trying I’m trying!’, he said ‘They are all shut!’

        ‘Awww tough’ I said. ‘Looks like wifey needs to know then!’

        The very next thing that happened was that he confessed what he had been doing to said wife. I actually spoke to her.

        ‘Go away. We don’t need to hear from you!’ In a heavy, German accent.

        I rang him the next day. Everything had been ‘smoothed over’ and they were going to ‘counselling’.

        But, HG. That day, any love I had for him died when I saw him for what he was. A sniveling little worm.

        OK so, yes, he got fuel from me. Big deal. I don’t need to ‘grab’ it from people. I can, if I chose, give it away and like the magic penny, it rolls back to me.

        He has not tried to Hoover me. Yet. IF he was to try, I would do this. Let him speak before reaching inside his core and ripping it out then ejecting him. Rapidly. Thanks to you, I can ow do this far more efficiently then I would have done in the past.

        There are no words I would say that would ever make this better. I don’t hold malice against him (useless) but he will never ever be part of my life ever again. EVER.

    2. He “exposed” me to the mutual friend/DLS but that was all. He has the weapons and after reading everything on here I was in a panic (actually went on meds briefly) for awhile. I think it depends on what type he is. The N is firmly rooted in his new hunting ground so I doubt I cross his mind. Also I left the job I was at when I met him and have almost no mutual friends in common. If he were to malign Hoover or smear at this late time it would not be as effective.

      1. The only reason he would have to ‘expose’ anything is if it benefits him. So here is what you do. Make him think you have lost your ever loving mind. There was a reason he targeted you, so untarget yourself. He won’t want anything to do with you. Examples:

        If he is an atheist, speak about how happy you are now to have found Jesus.

        If he is Elitist, boast about your recent Lynyrd Skynyrd concert and visiting monster truck shows. Brag about how much beer you can swill in under a minute and mention how you’re looking forward to getting that anchor tattoo on your neck. Then be grandiose about how your fridge is always filled with more beer than food and how you take a shot of jack each night before bed, followed by stick of beef jerky.

        If he is cerebral, find some New Age charlatan to latch onto and post lots of generic platitudes about relationships and life. Also belief in aliens from 10,000 BC can’t hurt. Then speak of your newfound love for Twilight Fan Fiction and how you can’t wait for the next installment of Fast and the Furious and how Michael Bay is such an awesome director. Make explosion sounds when you speak about his work.

        If he is somatic, talk endlessly about your newfound interest in rocks. You just can’t learn all there is about limestone. Then move onto salt grass and then speak about all the different species of crickets there are. He will not stick around long.

        See? It’s easy. The somatic from my past was an atheist and so I posted some religious texts and things about books and he thinks I am boring as shit, which is fine with me, so I very much doubt he has any use for me.

        1. Hahaha Bibi – this killed me. And was unexpected after reading all the heavy posts on relationships – thank-you!

    3. Im not worried about this bc i know hed never have a reason nor would he expose me. My narc doesnt want me to leave my husband its quite the opposite if i left hed be insecure bc thatd mean i could potentially meet someone else and our setup wouldnt be the same. Also i know way too much about his siblings where they live/social media and hed never want to be exposed for having an affair with a married woman. Hes very private and hed be very embaressed/ashamed if family knew.

    4. Mine has not but I admit I worry about this. Though, my understanding is that a mid ranger in particular would not be likely to do so. I have, in the past before I knew better, made comments to my MMRN that “I won’t hurt your home as long as you won’t hurt mine.”
      If he does, I will come clean and take whatever comes. I am responsible for my own actions, even if he manipulated me. I do not think mine will do this, ever, because he is very wary, his facade is very important to him, he has a good thing going with his co-dependent wife, and he would not be able to predict what I would do, nor what my husband would do. Even if he smears me well, it would be a great inconvenience to have me interfere with his life. And while a greater may not care about this and have high energy levels to deal with it, mid rangers as not as equipped.
      Plus, if you have good NC going, they can’t get fuel from trying to blackmail you and make you nervous, nor would they be guaranteed an explosive reaction from you after the exposure to gain fuel.
      Am I correct in this assessment HG?

    5. The person I was with didn’t expose me. He asked me to leave my husband, but I never did. Something always felt off about him. When I discovered he lied about things, I broke up with him.

      We went back and forth for years after that. Me breaking up and getting back together. Then I found out he was with another woman all those years I was with him, him professing to love me and only me. Him acting like I was the love of his life. I had stopped having sex with my husband for years. I was only with the narc and was faithful.

      I broke up with him after I found out about the other woman. He acted hysterical. Said he could live without me. He wanted to die. Later, I went back to him. He apologized and said he didn’t know why he did it. He said he was with only me now.

      I found something in his apartment from another woman after that. It hurt so bad. I ended up contacting both women he had had relationships with. We both talked about the things he had done for years with us. He said the same things to them about wanting to get married. He had bought engagment rings for them too. One of the women told me, he was married himself. I never knew.

      We turn to each other now as a support system and as a reminder of what he did, much like this place. I still talk to them, but not about him anymore. One of the women stated (as HG affirms), talking about him only makes you think about him. We said a lot about him when we initially met and realized each others hurt. We understood each other’s pain.

      I don’t know how many women there really were. I feel so bad for them. They put their lives on hold, missing opportunities to be with someone who would love them and have a good life with them waiting on the narc. Both women had been in previous abusive relationships. He love bombed them and used them. For money, for sex, for entertainment, to feel better about himself.

      When I asked him why he would do such a thing, he always blamed his drinking or just said he was stupid.

      I realize now that I would never want to be with someone who has so little respect for women or people in general. The lying the cheating the using. That is not someone I want to spend time with. I did talk to the narc about all my hurt. The other women and how it made me feel. I asked him how he would feel if someone he loved slept with other people, said I love you to other people, lied to him.

      I feel the wool has finally been removed from my eyes. I really hope that he stops hurting people and learns to love and respect himself. But I am gone. I can’t be around someone who hurts me and other women so badly.

      Your teachings and insights have been invaluable HG. And all the amazing, wonderful, humorous, strong, lovely people I have met here. Thank you very much.

      There is hope. We can all get past this. Keep learning. Keep growing. Keep trusting your instinct. If something seems off trust it. Be careful of those who deceive. Little lies usually hide big ones.

    6. Great question, BlackUnicorn,

      My N hasn’t.. I suppose I could add yet.. but I don’t think he will – this and other insight thanks to our illustrious leader in consult…

      Speaking of which, dear Hg… Care to tell us whether you have revealed to any cuckolded spouses?

      1. Thanks NE! HG has also advised me in consult that mine is unlikely to out me, but it doesn’t stop the worry. It’s not as bad as it was, thanks to HG, but there is still a risk I feel. Never say never, and all that!

  11. Here it is, again. The blog post that is all about me. It is Friday night here in the states, and I’ve had a tumultuous week (two weeks ago I’m posting here about the virtues of no contact, and then here I am, having hoovered myself back onto the shelf). I am a contradiction, a blasphemer, a coward, an empath, probably a super empath capable of serious damage.

    When narc came back to me I had two children, ages 1 and 3. I say “back” to me because we had this little cycle going as teenagers. We’d make out at a party or he’d grab my ass at some point, and I would love it. Then I’d be saying to myself a week later, “Why doesn’t he just ask me out? He must like me…” But, alas, I was too young and selfish myself to think anything of it at the time. Onward and upward.

    Narc came at JUST the right time. Six months earlier I would have been too mired in my post partum depression/anxiety to give him any notice. Six months later i would have been more recovered as a result of a good therapist, and not as susceptible. But, it is what it is. I still have no idea what in my marriage allowed it. I was happy, working on issues with my husband and making progress, no significant sexual issues. I just don’t know. All I can fathom is narc drawing on that old link from early years.

    And yes, he sniffed it out. I made a few flirtatious remarks, stupid. But that’s me. Sassy and unpredictable, I continually surprise myself. And oh boy, did he pull on the strings of me wanting to heal him. He just knew, it’s not hard to figure out, if you know what I do for a living.

    Three months of nonstop sexting, phone sex, couldn’t stop thinking about fucking him….then it just stopped. He gave me a warning, and I knew the end was coming. And I thought that was it. It was painful, I had withdrawals (though didn’t know it as that then), but I was ok with it.

    When he came back I was two months pregnant with my third child. I told him this straight away, but you know those narcs, no boundaries…the only shame I feel out of all of this, the only guilt, is that I let it go on while I was pregnant. I told him I couldn’t send him pics while I was pregnant….but I failed on that resolution eventually. I didn’t even really try to resist. I wanted it. Sick. I sexted and sent pics, and came over the phone for narc WHILE I WAS PREGNANT. That’s the addiction, it’s so real, and damn if I don’t feel good just saying it out loud and admitting it.

    So now I have three children, ages 2, 4, and 6. Its a busy life. And when I think of the past year, the way I fucked with narc…I don’t even know what to say. I had such an agenda against him, just wanted him to taste his own medicine in a visceral way. But I wanted this to try and make things better between us, not to hurt him. Well, you want to hint you have other women, I’ll get some other men….and I DID. Well, you want to lie just for fun, I can too…and I DID. You want to play games with “seeing” messages and not answering, “ignoring” messages, pretending, posturing, lies, lies, lies…I did it all.

    Does all of this make me a Supernova Dirty Empath or just a bad person with an addictive personality? I’m still pondering that. But I know that I have learned so much about myself these past months here with you all and HG that I am so grateful.

    1. Wow.. I don’t know what to say.. How could I say anything sensible when I’m confused myself? What is a bad person? What is bad attitude? Who decides? Just want you to know I’ve read your comment and I hope you won’t be doing anything that will hurt your children. Wanna give you a big hug xx

      1. Blank,
        Thank you. I was in a mood to just get down to the base level of it all when I wrote this. If you can’t admit the worst, how can you get past it?

      2. You are right Supernova and this is a good place to write it down. Writing is part of healing. (I just wish sometimes that we would talk in real life here, personally :))

        1. I thought about a support group with HG material. Nothing like a good dose of reality.
          Before I found d HG, I tried tried to go to some support group meetings and all I got from it was self control to not just yell at some of those people. I can’t handle some of the things in these meetings. People have no clue. I ended up getting mad because the advices would only get me in deeper trouble. Others were so stupid that you want to beat the person in the head to see if there are working neurons in there. Just made the matters worse. I miss the face to face connection with people who understand what I went through. I hate having to explain things to people who can’t understand the situation.

    2. I’m offering hugs because I TOTALLY get where you are coming from. But I am now going to put on my ‘stern’ voice.

      Drop that guilt shit at the side of the road where it belongs. Right now. As a mother myself, I know damn well how that second trimester feels. No question. So what if you were horny? You sent pictures? It’s YOUR body. To do with as YOU feel. This is misplaced guilt because you are a mother and in my opinion you are conflating two issues; your own sexuality and being a parent.

      When I was pregnant, both times, I was probably seven stone heavier than I am now. I got as horny as fuck. So desperate was I that I would make myself come in bed next to the ‘lovely’ Greater ex whilst he was asleep. Couldn’t even be arsed waking him up. Why? Because sex was all about him and not about my needs as a woman. He was porning away like a muthafucka. And I knew it.

      I like porn. A lot. I’m on my own at the moment so yeah, I ‘view’. It’s monumentally disrespectful to a partner to view it then cannot get an erection when you want to have fun times. I would urge him to go and get it checked out. He obviously, would always refuse.

      You are NOT a bad person Supernova. Not at all..I perceive you to be a woman who has endured so fucking much and is now turning it in on herself.

      Stop. Please.

      You will be OK. Let it go.

      And hugs.

      1. Thank you, and you are spot on in your assessment.

        Being here on this site is a double edged sword for me.
        It is so helpful, insightful, educational, etc.
        I also feel like I don’t belong here.
        It seems that the view of many is that “we” (the empaths) are good while the narcs are bad. Its like the sun shines out of our ass because we are empaths. I don’t feel that way about myself. I don’t have a problem with myself, but I also don’t view myself as being a total victim to the narc.

        1. Supernova De
          Theres not much sunshine coming out of my ass. Thats not a requirement here, and you have more company than you know. Besides, the goal here is to learn and we can’t do that if we’re all the same or dont speak out.

      2. NarcAngel,
        I hope my meaning was clear on my previous post. I wasn’t saying that some here are elevating themselves due to their status as empath, but that I feel (for me) being an empath doesn’t necessarily mean we don’t do immoral things or that we don’t hurt people or that we don’t have destructive coping mechanisms (just like a narc does).

        I have always in my life been described as cold, standoff-ish, selfish, self-absorbed. I can be those things at times, but they don’t define me. My therapist tells me this is common among women who are raised by narcissistic mothers. I’m reading about it right now at her request.

        I sometimes feel here that having a strong sense of self or a backbone or healthy self esteem is both praised, but then also abhorred. Perhaps this is inevitable in a group largely made up of women. Or maybe I read too much into what people say to me, and what I see them say to others.

        In any case I’m honored to have you comment on a post of mine. Thank you.

    3. Thank you for sharing your story, Supernova DE. I can relate to what you say in terms of shame because I have a problem with it.

      I was thinking earlier today how when the narcissist(s) were in my life, I got used to feeling sad and miserable all the time. Or rather, I grew to depend on it and before I knew it I was comforted by it. Yes, comforted by feeling sad, as strange as it sounds.

      Why? Because when I was unhappy it was easy to point my finger at them and say they were the reason. (And of course they contributed no doubt.)

      However, I have been NC for almost 5 years now, I don’t have any PTSD/trauma like some others on this site. I am, for the most part, recovered. Yet I still undergo this deep sadness within me that never leaves. To call it a depression would be too easy–it’s just this thing I have where everything great lives in the past and future but never in the present.

      I have no narcissist to attribute to why I feel this, only myself. We have to learn to forgive ourselves. I know I say this and feel like a hypocrite because I continue to punish myself just the same.

      Deep down, I am always surprised when someone compliments me. There is this part that feels inferior and no matter what I do to accomplish, it will never be enough because simply ‘being me’ is not enough. Everything great exists outside myself and everything within me sucks. I know intellectually this is BS but there is still that underlining emotional thinking that wants to pull me into this mire.

      I have spent the past few years trying to learn more about myself, trying to get better at self-talk, controlling these negative feelings and not attributing them to me. Rather I just feel them and tell myself they are subjective sensations and not reality. They don’t need to become my reality. I don’t have to accept them. And then I let the feeling pass.

      1. Bibi,
        Thank you for sharing this. The not “being enough,” is a typical feeling for someone raised in an emotionally toxic environment, and I know it well.
        I have learned over time, and with therapy, how to shut down those perfectionistic thoughts and redirect them. “Feelings aren’t facts.” is what my therapist probably told me a thousand times in the beginning haha. But it is a tiny slice of truth, and if you internalize that and work to halt those thoughts before they set in and lower your mood/opinion of yourself – the result is freeing.

        I remember the first time I was able to do it. My husband made a remark to me about one of the kids. My immediate thought was, “Oh shit, he thinks I’m a bad mother,” And I started to get down and get pissed at him. Then I had this AHA moment where I was out of my body, looking at myself and said, “No, wait, he is just saying we need to make a change in how we do discipline, it’s not a criticism of YOU as a person.” And it made sense to me. It sounds small, but I cried I was so proud of myself and felt so free.

        It sounds like you are trying to do the same for yourself as well. It can only get better once we know how our thoughts truly affect us.

      2. Hey Supernova DE:

        Just wanted to add that I have experienced this intense desire you speak of but only with a somatic. Nothing in the flesh ever happened mind you, but I went from thinking about sex never to non-stop fuck fests with him in my mind. (Pardon me.)

        When I commented earlier, I was very sad because I get into this intense Monday thing where going back to work brings on this existential grief. I have since managed to push past those shitty feelings. They are not gone, but getting through today helped. Hence I am a bit lighter and my humor has returned.

        1. Bibi,
          My cerebral narc used words to get me going sexually. My sex life with my husband is good, but used to be more reserved than it is now – we have both opened up over time, and if I’m honest, all that sexting with narc game me some good ideas and an appreciation for some things during sex that have helped things at home.

          When Narc came at me he was so uninhibited and frank and raw with what he said to me…it was novel. And of course he feigned that my body was incredibly appealing to him etc.

          While I was going supernova on him I encountered only one other man who gave me the same rush/desire/intensity of feeling. I see now that he was a somatic narc. If I had lived anywhere close to him, I would easily have succumbed, fucked him, and been in a whole heap of trouble as his IPSS also. In this way, I am so glad I only did my naughty dealings over the internet. Whew.

  12. I could have been a dirty empath, a demon on wheels so to speak, many many times but I already knew the outcome of cheating before hand because the type I am attracted to is not someone you want to “play” with. Those waters run deep…. very deep…. deeper than most people are used to go.

    What starts as a very dirty little secret or a erotic fun game becomes a deadly weapon that WILL be used against you. Have I been “there”? No. But if I wanted to control someone to my benefit and I had no morals whatsoever, that’s what I would do: emails, pictures, videos… whatever I could lay my hands on would be used as a weapon. So, I never underestimated anyone. Never.

    Dangerous games, if you have something to lose. So, that alone is a deterrent. Even if you are smart enough to gather your own weapons, you will spend a lot of energy manipulating situations, going through power struggles and sustain that level of energy constantly simply to keep your head above water… elements that the outcome of the affair alone (as an empath) doesn’t provide you back with “supply” enough to justify looking for revenge that way…. because the narcissist won’t give anything back. That’s the catch for me.

    Now, do I have the intrinsic trait in me? No. I don’t. But I have the power to create it, to understand it, justify it, and use it to my benefit if I wish so.

    With my last mid range narcissist I contemplated cheating on him so many times that if fantasizing counts for any revenge, hell ya!!!! But it never actually happened. My desire to find another guy was out of pure anger because I knew he was cheating on me “behind” my back. Actually, if I know, it is not behind my back. So there you have it. This is my anger.

    But here is the catch. A normal guy wouldn’t do it. Since we are bluntly honest here, I am into BDSM, nothing hardcore/crazy/stupid like vanillas watch in porn flicks (they can be real but mostly are porn actors, so you know…) but hardcore enough to make any vanilla dude RUN from me like I am a psycho 😈.
    In bed, if you don’t take charge of me, I will control you…. and then I will get bored. So I can be a challenge and I do scare “normal” men. Simply said and once I see them scared, it is a huge turn off.

    So, that’s point one. Point two is that I would only be attracted to someone “better” than my current narcissist. Stronger, especially mentally. Someone who would stand up to my level and that is a grand narcissist. And that would be an exciting bloody battle of seduction.

    So there lies the problem that I sensed intuitively: a Grand would not want to let me go.
    And I would not want to let go of the high I would get from giving and taking whatever fuel would feed us.

    So, nothing happened. I figuratively grabbed my basket and went to gather blueberries, innocent and free of bigger and more potent troubles.

    Not everyone can sense danger BEFORE they step into those waters, especially when they experience the seduction of a narcissist that is always delicious, hot, consuming and very tempting. But I don’t have the trait, that’s why I can cut off the supply line without allowing lust to take over my senses. Yes I can get horny. Yes I can bring him the high, but no I don’t “float” high enough to lose the control, unless it is something I want. If I allow it to happen with a grand, it is a conscious decision rather than an instinctive one because the danger is not something I advise a lesser empath to mess with… the struggle will be real. These guys are machines. Exciting machines but still machines… to be respect by what they are.

    And you can’t be consumed enough by one. The need will run like fire in your veins. You will be obsessed over sex with him 24/7, 365… until he stops consuming you. You are left in need and in pain. And the cycle resumes when and as he wishes.

    I didn’t know that the name of the beast I would be dealing with is narcissism… until I got here.

    I simply trusted my instincts to stay away and avoid problems because if my mid range was already consuming me, what would someone smarter, more “lethal” could do???

    No, I won’t find out. Life is too short to play these games.

    1. Oh wow. What a response!

      I, like you, do the BDSM thing. In spades. (I also write about this). I am now a Dom myself.There is only one man on this planet who I would allow to Dom me and it’s a GEN. But I am very dark and can be extreme as as a sub. He (consensually) beat me so bad once that my arse was completely purple. My God it felt divine. I was on all fours. I collapsed in a heap. He dragged me up, shoved me to the sofa and went down on me. I came and gushed all over his face. Amazing. He went to kiss me. ‘Taste yourself’, he said.

      He knows I love him. I know he ‘loves’ me. It is so fucking delicious and intoxicating. To have a GE writing about you and posting it on social media; makes me so wet. He’s my old man and I am his. I don’t care about the other women. I don’t perceive he cares about the other men. It’s about the energy between us..

      Not all G’s can do this by the way. We sense each others’ energy. If I ask him for energy, he gives it. Willingly. He gives ME energy. He won’t leave me alone. He’s hoovering me right now. With a song; Lana Del Ray ‘Off to the Races’.I’m a little bit annoyed by this, I’m more Catwoman that Harley Quinn But my fucking God, the sex. The connection.

      Middles are shit. Trust me. Ignore them. But of course, I am SE. As I suspect you are.

      1. Hi Renarde,

        Thank you for sharing with me (us). BDSM is a whole new world altogether. It is hard to explain the dimensions.

        I don’t think I want to get control anyone. Right now, I don’t even know what I want. Every guy who approaches me, gets a no. I think I can and I will control in a situation where I feel that no one is taking charge. Safety. For me is more about the male control, the psychological aspect of the connection, the obedience, my need to please him than pain. I am not a masochist. I am also strictly straight. My preference. And monogamous. My preference too. That was the one thing he never tried to influence in me to change but now I can see why. How about if someone saw through his facade? He isolated me. He did his things with others away from me and hiding (obviously, he is a mid range) but I was loyal, devoted, and absolutely monogamous. A man would have to kill me before I would allow him to touch me. The only one for me was my narcissist. So yes I WAS a jewel. Very submissive, sweet. Never complained about anything. Never complained about him disappearing. Never made a scene. Very compliant. Very obedient. Never yelled at him. I was never, ever disrespectful. Even when I was mad, I kept things to a level. I can’t say the same about him but we all know that…

        Today I don’t think I could do that again because everything got so distorted, so wrong, so polluted, manipulated that this new imaginary Dominant guy would quit on me before he could convince me that he was normal.

        The M/s dynamic just made my wound much deeper, painful. It really hit my core in different aspects because for me I was discarded as a woman and as what I thought I was for him. He discarded my submission, my obedience, everything I was and everything I had to give to him. So we are done.

        I don’t care if 65.000 lives will come. I don’t care if his redemption depends on my forgiveness. I don’t care how much he begs, pleads, rages. He will never touch me again. He can have all the women in the world, every single one of them. I can care less. He won’t have me. He can’t forget me. He loses me further. Regardless if he sees it or not. Because I KNOW the day is coming where he will have to face it.
        One thing about life is true: changes. Nothing stays static.

        That lack of me, will bother him because he needs to conquer but he won’t have me. Yes he can think I belong to him. That’s fine by me. He won’t just have me. He lost me. He will be forced to move on if he doesn’t want to run out of fuel completely.

        This time he screwed up big time. Enough.

        I have had many submissive males contacting me and begging. But I am not a Dominant even if I send that energy because I am very assertive, honest, and take crap from no one these days.

        But I am not at minimum interested on anything or anyone right now. I need to heal.

        I was under my narcissist’s control for 6 years and that interaction became ingrained in me. Imagine yourself that on Saturday I almost texted him to say: I am at home.

        And I am on no contact!!!!

        It was so second nature automatic for me to text him and let him know where I was at all times that I unlocked the door, put the keys down, grabbed my phone and proceeded to look for his name. Only when I could not find his message or his number is that it dawned on me: oh shit! wtf am I doing???????

        Can you freaking imagine it????
        He would think: there we have. She’s back but I am busy grooming and seducing this other idiot. So, let’s disappear.

        I sat and cried I was so mad at myself, because I felt like I was about to pull the trigger on myself. I don’t usually cry but Saturday I had to.
        It was like… why did I do all that for?

        He pushed me to go for my Master’s degree. I told him I was going to get busy. Then now that I am 3 classes away from my graduation, he does that. I was finishing one of the hardest classes when he started this whole thing. I had to do a budget and I was in so much pain, I couldn’t think. The effort I had to make to not think, not feel made my stomach sick.

        I got busy and couldnt give him fuel and then he replaced me when he said he was going to be there for me. Imagine that?!

        Yeah I know, good things will come out of this but that is not my point. I had to deal with the blow by myself and keep it together because I am a mom and my little boy can’t see me falling apart or he will get scared.
        So I honestly can’t lose it. But I got physically sick.

        It just doesn’t dissipate. I

        I am working on it. I still have my collar, which means nothing. I took off my anklets too. I just want to be free.

        The problem is that, as far as I can tell, 99.9% of the Dominants I have met are narcissists. I am not saying that 99.9% of all of them are. The ones I have met are and low quality too.
        Even the ones who pretend they are not, give a month and it is all over again. So I am not even thinking about this right now. I am burn out with the whole thing.
        Trust is going to be a major problem for me…

        1. Oh Goodness and [hugs].

          This part really resonated with me;

          The M/s dynamic just made my wound much deeper, painful. It really hit my core in different aspects because for me I was discarded as a woman and as what I thought I was for him. He discarded my submission, my obedience, everything I was and everything I had to give to him. So we are done.

          This happened to me and the rejection I felt when it happened was off the scale. It actually broke me psychologically.

          The problem is that, as far as I can tell, 99.9% of the Dominants I have met are narcissists. I am not saying that 99.9% of all of them are. The ones I have met are and low quality too.

          Wow! I have been pondering that exact same thought as well and recently too. I am in total and utter agreement. There are too many similarities between D/s (Or M/s) and N-E Bond.

          That being said, I am a Dom and I do perceive myself to be a SE. I don’t switch.

          Incidentally, getting rid of the collar may help in your healing. I burnt mine.

          Wishing you the best.

          1. Thank you Renarde,
            Everything has a reason to be. If I am to be very honest, I should have left this relationship long ago. The fact that I stayed points to some issues in myself that I must address.
            I can’t deny to myself that all that I have been reading about narcissism had already been noted in my mind. I was just in denial. I gave him the benefit of doubt due to situations he went through in his life. But I saw the selfishness. He acts so instinctively that it is obvious something is not right but because he can cover up so fast and you feel attracted to him, that bad thing disappears. So… anyways. I didn’t allow it to break me. In fact when I finally had my answers, I felt this surge of renewed energy. I was in pain and I am still in pain. I am still putting the pieces together. But the way he treated me last time we had dinner… more so his facial expressions and the things he told me… nope. We are done. Like I said: he can have the whole world but he won’t have me. And I KNOW that he will miss my fuel because it never extinguished. In fact it was getting higher and higher.
            So… it will eat him alive to know he can’t experience that high from me. And he knows that fuel very well. Yeah he can find it somewhere else, but he will always knock on my door.
            I could have destroyed him by now. Wound him. I didn’t and there is a reason why.
            Solid no contact. No answers. Nothing. And his Hoovers will only feed his frustration. 🙂
            But hey, he can always run to the others for fuel, right????

          2. Thank you x

            Addressing some of your issues.

            Everything has a reason to be. If I am to be very honest, I should have left this relationship long ago. The fact that I stayed points to some issues in myself that I must address.

            Agreed, though I am not judging here. We all carry our own, personal demons within ourselves. It is THIS fact which makes us such fantastic targets. Coupled with many factors that HG has outlined.

            Like I said: he can have the whole world but he won’t have me.

            I have said almost the EXACT words to a very significant other. We are asserting natural and very healthy boundaries. Let them run after others. I do not. Never had and never will.

            I could have destroyed him by now. Wound him. I didn’t and there is a reason why.

            Me too.

            But hey, he can always run to the others for fuel, right????

            Yeah, he can. They will never be YOU though. That’s the kicker.

            More hugs. I perceive you are getting there. Well done you x

          3. Thank you. HG. I am listening to his videos on YouTube. I am hearing what I need to hear: the truth. I have flash backs, I have memories of my perceptions, my insights that I ignored.
            HG says something and I go… omg I remember this happening. Omg, I saw that. They were subtle signs, little red flags popping in and out here and there that I ignored because come on! I had no clue what I was dealing with. In fact, I just realized that my mom, my grandmother, my father were narcissists and hated each other AFTER I began understanding. My entire life I knew something was terribly wrong with those people. I just didn’t know the name!
            During this time that he disengaged from me, my own emotional pain guided me back to my childhood where I experienced this same pain. Same intensity. I succumbed to it because children are powerless. I can even remember the exact moment it entered me and created this wound inside. From that point on, all I have known in my life are narcissists. All of them. So, this is just not a relationship. This is my entire life doing the same thing. I just heard the “Magnet for Miserabilism” on YouTube and that is exactly it. It is not just mistakes. It is a way of being that if doesn’t find some “cure” will continue to attract narcissists because that’s the only type I have kept. The normal guys are boring to me. So both sides are sick. The narcissist is and so are we. And of course we attract each other wonderfully! Treated “appropriately” we are an endless source of fuel and we are glad to be so because THEY are happy and satisfy so we fulfill our “purpose”. And that is: satisfy them. Where do we get the energy and excitement? From their approval. If they disapprove, we try harder. And it goes on and on.
            At some point, the narcissist has the need or reason to devalue us and that’s when the search for answers brings us here.
            I wake up every morning emotionally thinking: my life is empty. I don’t have him to worship. This is so devastating. I don’t like who I am because he doesn’t want me.

            Now I rationally think: you “worshipped” a beggar, who wanders the streets looking for attention. A guy who will have sex with anyone who gives him attention. A whore. That is what you worshipped. Not the guy in your head. That one does not fucking exist. Get up and do something for yourself!

            Then I have a day for myself! And I am breaking out of this. But it is hard.

            I am getting there and you keep me pushing to get there! Don’t give up on me 🙂

            Thank god for HG and whoever got him to do some treatment. This has been one of the most powerful experiences of my life. I share with you here. This is a milestone in my life. I was raised to be this and now I am breaking out of it.
            I repeat: every relationship I had in my life were with narcissists. Every single one of them. All of them. That’s very scary to me.

            Hugs Renarde.

    2. Kathy Mor

      Omg. A very powerful post.
      And it really hit the spot.
      Fair Warning.
      Particularly the bit about not letting lust take over!
      I like the point about these men are machines… you really hammer home the facts.

      I think what you have written is valuable and it’s good even if we do know these things inside to read somebody else reiterating it… like your words shout “wake up and listen to your screaming inner warnings”

      It’s good when we save ourselves from making a stupid mistake and it’s really good and so valuable when somebody on the outside just at the right moment shouts just the right thing..

      Thank you for sharing this Kathy👍

      1. Thank you Debbie
        I work with men like that. They are extremely smart, some are radiant brilliant, extremely charismatic, engaging. But you don’t want to cross them wrong. You have to approach them carefully, methodically on a daily basis. I stay quiet most of the time. I have learned how to express myself in a non-threatening manner and allow them to have the last word, unless they tell me otherwise. I have NO need to engage in battles. I keep my peace and I never had issues with any of them. I am their go to person when they need something specific. Others before me have been torn into pieces and dismissed.
        In all these years, there has been only one instance that one of them wanted to engage in an affair with me. It was exhausting because he was relentless and he was not a greater. He was a wannabe. Dressed in cowboy boots all the time. I hate that.

        It was a greater who warned him to leave me alone. It took one warning. I never saw the man again. He had incredible blue eyes but his smile was a snare, which I knew what sat behind the mask.
        Initially, the greater was not necessarily protecting me. He just didn’t want to lose me because of my skills. So, he got positive fuel from me because I was grateful for being set free from that shark. And he got negative fuel from the shark who left injured and had to look for solace elsewhere.

        As bizarre as it may sound, i became good friends with this greater who saved me from that disgusting shark. He always asked me about my intuition and my perception about people, particularly business partners. There were many instances that he used of my empath intuition to identify the real feelings behind people’s intentions because he simply couldn’t. So I would tell him everything. Images I saw, sensations, back thoughts, first impressions, what I sensed. I was never wrong. It was a matter of time until what I saw, sensed manifested itself in concrete world. I was just invited over for dinner, sat by his right side, and he treated me like a princess. He has been the only man who I genuinely smiled to. Not even my mid range could make me smile like that. This greater was British- Italian and was an amazing combination of cold/hot temper but at the same time he was good to his friends. Horrible to his wife. She was a shadow. The few times I saw her, she looked like a ghost. Always quiet, never present. Beautiful but absent. Tortured. She would look at me like a scared rabbit. I looked through her. She avoided me. I couldn’t say a thing to him because he would take it as criticism.
        I saw first hand he dealing with someone. Blow after blow. Calculated. The anger boiling inside but the blows calculated, precise, chilling.
        That’s why I am saying. Play at your own risk. I wouldn’t get involved with a greater unless I expected to never leave. These aren’t the mid rangers that you can injure them enough, they sulk and leave.
        No. Greaters don’t leave. And you won’t either.

        Some battles are meant to be fought.

  13. On another note part of what brought me back here was the reality that I could not grieve like a typical victim. I was the DE, the adulterer. So subtle and insidious were these behaviors that most people around me did not believe that I was dealing with a Narc. They think I am engaging with “obsessive” behaviours by being on here.
    Obviously I do not agree with this. I recognize that they do not know the full story and don’t take their opinions personally.

  14. Beautiful writing Quasi. How similar your story sounds. I know what was wrong in my marriage and was on high alert to the initial overtures made by the N going so far as to ask the opinion of friends. This is where I blame myself for not trusting my gut. Instead of going after easier prey he came into my personal life using his DLS and my new found friend as a cover, a cloak of plausibility. He was devaluing her in a very subtle fashion. Everything he did was on display. His initial seduction of me, triangulation, devaluation, making nice with my husband all the while getting closer and closer. It sounds like it should be so obvious, but in truth it was so subtle. Part of the seduction was putting his DLS on a pedestal in front of me making me feel safe in this new friendship. His quiet devaluation was mixed with crumbs of comfort allowing both of us to make excuses for the behaviors.

    I called him out a few different times on it, and he would “listen” and make small changes in how he treated her. All to make me feel like my opinion was worthwhile and that he was attentive.

    He was pegged as “highly manipulative” which I do not doubt by any stretch.

    1. Wounded,

      He sounds awful and very manipulative indeed. Thank you for this post and sharing this. I think we learn so much from each other. I very much like reading your posts, and relate to much of what you say.

      1. You as well Quasi. I’m sorry I just saw this and I thank you so much. Being able to share my story without being judged has been a huge part of my healing journey.

  15. And you say I sit “besides” you rather than beside. Next time I speak with you, I need to be schooled on the proper pronunciation of aluminum. I think I say it correctly. You also say “says”, rather than “sez” which I find quite endearing. I smile every time.

  16. He saw this black streak under the surface, under my pale skin, he could see it running up my neck ready for him to bite when the time was right; when he had created the perfect illusion of a friend. He knew he just needed to secure a way in and when he felt firmly embedded in my heart; he could start to scratch and pick away at the surface to uncover the DE streak in my shadow.

    He also saw a challenge as I am married, he was probably bored with the ease of seducing single women. He could not use his normal routines on a married woman initially. If he started with the sexually driven communication from the beginning, I would not have enabled him entry into my life from the start.

    This trait / streak has always been the Achilles heel of my personality for me, which is probably why it had been pushed into the shadow, at whatever point in my development I decided that I was a decent and moral person.

    It is one line of black in a multitude of Technicolor, well maybe there is also a grey streak that appeared at the same time- the narcissistic trait of selfishness.

    These traits came to the surface at the same time when I was in direct communication with the narcissist or in his presence. They were strong when in contact with the narcissist.

    When I made decisions to engage in sexually driven communication with him which lead to a few occasions of intimacy with him, I was thinking of he and I – that’s it.
    I did not think of my husband
    I did not think of my young children.
    It was almost like they were veiled and hidden from me when the DE streak was strong.

    Only after a situation with him did I think of them, and this was linked to an immeasurable level of guilt.
    The strength of the DE streak and selfishness streak, were at their most powerful with a narcissist.
    No “normal” man has caused this reaction in me.
    It took a narcissist to reveal and pull these streaks to the surface.

    I had no radar for finding other men attractive outside of a momentary acknowledgement of aesthetic beauty. I had no thoughts of approaching another man, no thoughts of seeking another man, no thoughts of my marriage not being enough for me. Sex was not overly important to me at all.

    The narcissist targeted a married woman he could see a quasi challenge in. It was only a level up challenge because he could see this black streak running through me. He knew that he just had to scratch the right place in the pretence of sharing my want for friendship, and he would get what he wanted – he would be all powerful.
    Only a narcissist could do this, only a narcissist.

    1. Hi quasi
      I can relate to so much of your post. Youre right only a skilled narcissist would be able to seduce this streak. I say skilled bc there are many dumb narcissists mainly lessers that lack the skill to study and hone in on the weaknesses in order to gain entry into a married persons life fully. That said i do think this streak arises from a weakness in the marriage and the person committing infidelity. I can see it within myself and i know its complex and isnt just one area of weakness why i was chosen. I have issues from my past dealing with a narcissistic mother and my marriage has had huge intimacy issues from the start. The narc has a fetish for married women and has never been married or lived with a woman which tells me hes got a fear of committment. I actually feel sorry for him bc if he used his facade to become the good he shows he would have the capacity to be in a committed relationship but thats a whole other discussion.
      He knew i was lonely and wasnt fulfilled in my marriage and became what i needed a lover and fulltime friend. He does a hell of a job at it too to the point i have to remind myself what im dealing with hence why im still here.
      Narcissists need a puzzle piece that fits with their broken piece and many of their victims are broken or have vulnerabilities theyre able to infiltrate to gain access emotionally into that persons life.
      I can say with out any doubt had there not been the issues in my marriage which i tried to fix i would have never been swayed by any man. its not an excuse but its something i know to be true for myself. I tried for many years to fix the problems. Looking back i probably shouldve left but i do love my husband and care deeply about him. Maybe it wouldve been the best for us. I can see so clearly now how the narc was able to bind me the way he has.
      The song by lovely the band…broken reminds me of narcissists bc they look for brokeness and weakness to use their phoney power.

      1. Hi chihuahuamum,

        Thank you, I really appreciate your post, and your honesty in what you have shared with me. I really like the way you described the broken puzzle pieces.

        Ok in this forum honesty has been the way I have chossen to express myself. Which is probably why the expressions have been so varied, and at times contradictory. The previously unknown parts of me that bubbled to a surface through knowing him have been fighting for air… this and I think everyone has a capacity to be contrary in their thoughts and belief systems; as we are made up of many strands in our personality, that do not always mix that well. Rational mind needs to be like a ref at a football game, with all the cards restricting behaviours and calling out foul play!

        All I can say is that if there were “problems” in my marriage before I met the narcissist they were not noted in my conscious thought. I do not recall any repression of thoughts so if there were issues they we’re unknown, and as such I was not trying to fix anything.

        The marriage has not changed in itself, I have. I have written my life story here so you may recall previous posts explainIng my perception, of what lead me to meet him. But I will try and give a brief recap ( haha) so we can draw on a context.

        I have been with my husband for 13 years, we married 6 years ago, we had bought a house together and had our first child before we were married, he is now 7 years old. We had our second child 4 years ago in October.

        I was always happy, he is a good man, a sensitive man, a man who would never hurt me, I don’t think he would be unfaithful, he has loved me for who I am; and has always found me to be beautiful no matter how my appearance may have changed over that time. He is literally the perfect good man, I know how beyond lucky I am, it is for who he is and my children that I walked away from the narcissist before disengagement.

        My rational mind lead the way in knowing that the narcissist could not be the person I was hoping for him to be in my life; that is not his fault in any way.
        I put him in a role I wanted him in, I decided I wanted this man as a friend in my life, someone to share a love of music with, and spend time with in a platonic way, as I did with other male freinds. I did not see the flags, he was good in his facade and the ultimate angel with a dirty face.

        Him in this role did not fit his jigsaw, he knew what he wanted from me, and he knew how to get to that point through giving me what I wanted first – the above specification I had constructed in my mind for him. As we all know this is what is offered by the narcissist to start with – what they can see we want.

        It is my perception that the switch to an intimate relationship was manipulated to be as such, in the knowing that this streak was under the surface too, at that time I was unaware of it, it had been in the shadow for a long time. I was always a good, honest and faithful person, I had never cheated on partners or my husband until this point.

        It would seem that I walked into his life when I had the most to loose, something that he pointed out to me when I met him to say we could not be alone together again. “ You do have more to loose then me don’t you”?, this was stated alongside a mass of projections of jealousy and hurt.
        For his facade management of the “good guy” I do not believe he has told anyone about what happened between us, but he may one day, I have no idea. As with all decisions made by the narcissist, it will always be what they feel will serve them best at any given time.

        The dynamics of my marriage are now different because I have changed as a person through knowing A, and what he hooked out of me when I put him in my heart. He has left a very definable impression in me, running along the black DE streak. This impression leaves me vulnerable to narcissists and I’m aware of this. My rational mind would be the only part of me that would prevent me from voluntarily becoming involved with another narcissist in the future.

        A “normal man” would not impact this streak in me, as this streak is excited and activated by the intoxicating and addictive substance of a narcissist.

        It was his lack of care, his cool approach, and his seemingly open mind to my emotional expressions of uncertainty, that flipped a switch of selfishness and irresponsible behaviour, of which I am accountable for.

        Now I know who I am in my entirety, the dark and the light, I can not be who I once was. This is what now effects my marriage. My husband has become my friend, the stain of the DE streak does not get excited by him. But I love him with my whole heart, this is actually killing me a little bit.

        I have had a few reality checks in the last few weeks. Which has raised my a awareness of my vulnerabilities, which I embrace but need to be mindful of.

        Meeting A opened a rabbit hole of which I have landed on a ledge, it is narrow and I’m holding on to the sides. Do I step off and fall into the unknown in truth and with bravery? or do I fight for the person I was and climb out, knowing that the hole is still waiting for me to fall in again?

        I tried to tell my husband once, to be honest as I am that person, he deflected the conversation. I don’t want to bore people with this but I’m back in a place in my mind where I feel it is time he knows.

        Like we have the hard brutal truth here on this blog, maybe this is what he needs, even if he doesn’t want it, even though it will hurt him immeasurably. If he knows the truth as much as I can try and explain it, he will then be in a position to decide what HE wants, without this knowledge he is living a lie with me. That will never change, it will always be there – a dragon that could grow to great heights if not recognised and attended to.

        I always advise people to face their fears voluntarily, to be truthful, so their internal systems can guide them effectively. This is the one area of my life in which I have not done this. So I’m not sure if my internal systems are quite on course!
        The level of fear of the hurt and damage I will do to my husband with this truth is a mighty dragon.
        The fear of hurting my children through potentially splitting their world is a mighty dragon.

        It is a step into the unknown, the path into the forest which is the darkest.
        But it will always be there unless it is trodden!

        This post is a combination of my emotional and rational mind, so you do not have to be concerned for my emotional expression here. This is probably the most balanced and real truth I know right now. I feel calm in this expression, it is not governed by a high emotional state, it is the mix of my whole being and it feels right.

        I have messaged my sister to ask for some time to talk to her today, she is a normal and tells me like it is. She always advised me that if I could compartmentalise the experience with A, I should do so. So I could maintain my family as it is. This has not happened.
        I have some decisions to make lovely people – wish me luck…
        thank you for all that you are, and all the support you have all given me. Narcsite is in my heart.

      2. I wish you luck Quasi… listen to your inner voice, rather than advice of your sister. You have to live with you. Only you know what is best for you and I think you already know what to do. Giving you a big hug xx

      3. Hi quasi…ty for your reply and it gave me a lot to think about in my own marriage. First off i have a question and if its too personal i understand but do you want to spend your life with your husband? I ask this bc ive had to ask myself the very same question. I tend to agree with your sister. There are some things that are better left untold. Maybe thats wrong but once you let that cat out of the bag theres no going back. i think the most important point is that you can see this aspect of who you are and work on finding out why. Im at this stage and in my case its a combination of reasons the most prominent being my relationship with my mother.
        Your husband sounds like hes committed and meeting your needs but if theres other needs that run deeper thats where its important to find out why they are there. Youd mentioned you have a few guy friends are they purely platonic? Or is there an element of flirting? I ask bc i have a few male friends and altho ive not been involved i know theres been attraction which brings me back to my question why is there a deeper need for male attention. In my case its obvious bc of the lack of intimacy but in your marriage it sounds like your husband is very attentive so there must be another reason why theres a need for the excitement of a narcissist. I know that attraction all too well. I do think also its easy to feel drawn to narcissists bc it is a facade and it isnt real. Real is living with that person fulltime and going thru lifes struggles which arent always fun and games. I think narcissists can offer us an escape from our own reality. life is difficult and marriages can lose their luster in the process.
        I had a therapist ask me once what do you want something exciting and short term or something meaningful and longterm?
        Im trying to reconnect with my husband but i can see very clearly where my vulnerabilities are. Its a long personal road ahead to deal with them and youre right about facing fears thats most of the battle. Facing reality can be scary.
        Just my opinion but id talk to your sister and get her take on it before saying too much to your husband. It could be so damaging and id hate for you to regret it but its definitely a very personal decision and one only you can make. All the best and ty for sharing your situation! It helps to reflect on my own.

        1. Ok, there are a few questions in here, as they are quite complex I hope you’re prepared for an epic! Lol..

          Do I want to spend the rest of my life with him? When you marry someone this is the intent and it remains so. I just don’t want to live the rest of my life with him in the way we are living it right now. There is a dark mass between us and we are drifting apart, what is unsaid is manifesting in different ways, small little things, that I’m noticing are becoming bigger.

          My initial thought process with guidance from my sister and friends was -don’t tell him, save him the pain and live with the guilt. I appear to have Been unable to do this effectively, as it is seeping out in other areas, and growing in size.
          The thing that is unsaid does not go away because we refuse to say it or look at it. Sometimes recognisingit, attending to it and discussing it makes it smaller and more manageable.

          I am in a position of stepping into the unknown with this one as I do not know How his lens will view it. It’s likely to be awful and may have consequences that I do not like, but what happens to our relationship can be discussed in truth, for as much as I’m able to explain. I don’t think I can explain narcissists to him he will think I’m crazy and creating excuses. I will approach it as an whole topic of us as individuals and how the relationship has evolved with the narcissist as a catalyst in that.

          I did speak with my sister and spent the evening with a very close friend, both of whom do not sugar the pill, they both agree it was the right thing to do now as the other way is not effective, and may be even more damaging as it seeps out futher, that will effect our children and they won’t know why, I can’t allow that to happen. This is on me and it’s on me to address it.

          Remembering that this is my life and world and what I feel is the best way forward. Your situation is your own and only you can see and judge how to manage this.

          Re- Male friends- I used to have More, I was pretty much one of the lads in university, I played rugby golf ( drinking game) with the rugby guys and got on with them all – platonically.
          This was fine as they did not find me attractive, they just saw me as a mate, music and topical conversations, no flirting. The reason they did not find me attractive is likely because I was bigger then, I’m 6ft1 and I was a larger size – all my life tallest and biggest- this is the self esteem wound that heightened my sensitivity and susceptibility for the narcissist.

          In the last two yea I lost a lot of weight, noticable for all.
          The friend I was with last night gave her take on this. She told me I Am visually attractive, She told me the inside that She has always seen, can Be seen on the outside now. She felt that the narcissist saw this external and internal beauty to match.

          Now these changes had not allowed for my internal to catch up, inside I was still the person I was a few year a ago, I didn’t contemplate that men would find me attractive. I was in a nice little bubble, and literally did not pick up on anything or see any signs. I chat to anyone and I’m friendly, easy going etc. I was literally perfect prey for him.

          Re- excitement- this was not a know need before the narcissist, but it has become a Part of the apparent black mass following entanglement with the narcissist- he pulled out traits in me that seek it. I do not See this in my husband. Clearly something to be addressed.

          I have fewer male friends now, and the majority are in couples and we socialise together. The male friend I have spoken of in another post, I did spend more time chatting to in front of the narcissist the last time I saw him, it was purposeful and childish, as this friend is 20 years younger then the narcissist and attractive -The narcissist made it clear when we were “friends” that he didn’t like me talking to him.
          This friend is cool and just saw it as our normal chats, I was just More smiley- to be fair to him he was being very funny too.

          All the best in your journey too lovely. X

    2. Well, this was meaningful. Quasi, you rock. HG, thank you. Looking forward to more posts on this topic please.

      1. Hi Amanda,

        I have responded again above with a hopeful answer , as important observations were made that I wanted to respond to.
        Essentially I have decided to discuss this with my husband which could make or break us.

        A solution for the streak ? I need to embrace this DE streak as a part of me, knowing what it could mean, what it could draw me to, what I could be vulnerable to, in the hopes that if I’m honest with myself I can have a control over it.
        If I was to ignore it or repress it, it will come up when I least expect and potentially be more damaging longer term.
        In accepting it I accept that there is a part of my personality that does have the capacity to hurt people I love, not with intent but with a lack of acknowledgement in decision making, and making potentially unwise decisions- I guess this is why it is a narcissistic streak.

        It reminds me of the simpsons randomly- when homer is in position of making a stupid decision he dismisses it and says “ ah that’s a problem for future homer” .
        That is my idea of the DE streak and selfishness streak as a narcissistic trait, they lack the ability to truly consider the future for you, they are pleasure seeking, they want instant gratification, they want what they want in the moment, if they come into the fore with strength they can greatly influence decisions. You can not claim that you did not have capacity at the time of making the decisions, even though they were not made with all of your traits and rational mind- all you can say is that they were an unwise decision, and take accountability for any outcomes.
        That is all I can do now that I know it’s a part of me. Accept it.

        1. Hello Quasi,

          I am, of course, behind on follow-up replies to you elsewhere but I am touched by your posts here and your honesty with yourself.

          I, for one, admire you as a proponent of self-honesty and would match you on that level…but that’s a post for another day…suffice to say that I recognize the dilemma of balancing one’s need to reconcile past transgressions with the well-being of those dear to you who are affected knowingly – or unknowingly – by those actions.

          Your decision – one way or another – will be a brave one; whether to share with your husband or not.

          But there is another truth to recognize – and that is that, if they are perceptive, children will know that there is something off… regardless of our adult decisions.

          I certainly don’t envy your particular dilemma, Quasi, but I do respect your recognition that our truths find a way to make themselves known and that narcissists have a way of bringing our truths (good or bad) to the surface.

          I sure wish that I had an inspirational song dedication for you Quasi – as you have so often have provided to others – but I am more inspired by art so, in the same vein, I suggest googling: “James Christensen lawrence pretended not to notice”

          P.S. Please excuse any typos – or slurriness in the above post because it was written – in part – under the infufluence of cheap red wine…and honesty. And I’m not going to proofread atm…

          1. Quasi [insert ‘heart’ here], as I have not yet learned how to do special characters.


      2. Hi Amanda,

        I have responded above with a hopeful answer , as important observations were made that I wanted to respond to.
        Essentially I have decided to discuss this with my husband which could make or break us.

        A solution for the streak ? I need to embrace this DE streak as a part of me, knowing what it could mean, what it could draw me to, what I could be vulnerable to, in the hopes that if I’m honest with myself I can have a control over it.
        If I was to ignore it or repress it, it will come up when I least expect and potentially be more damaging longer term.
        In accepting it I accept that there is a part of my personality that does have the capacity to hurt people I love, not with intent but with a lack of acknowledgement in decision making, and making potentially unwise decisions- I guess this is why it is a narcissistic streak.

        It reminds me of the simpsons randomly- when homer is in position of making a stupid decision he dismisses it and says “ ah that’s a problem for future homer” .
        That is my idea of the DE streak and selfishness streak as a narcissistic trait, they lack the ability to truly consider the future for you, they are pleasure seeking, they want instant gratification, they want what they want in the moment, if they come into the fore with strength they can greatly influence decisions. You can not claim that you did not have capacity at the time of making the decisions, even though they were not made with all of your traits and rational mind- all you can say is that they were an unwise decision, and take accountability for any outcomes.
        That is all I can do now that I know it’s a part of me. Accept it.

        1. Quasi – I can relate to everything you say, the whole story, from beginning to end. I understand what is going through your mind, and how you are trying to find your own closure. I understand the blame, the horror, the guilt.
          Please don’t tell your husband. It will cause immeasurable pain and damage to you, him and your children. Even if you manage to stay together, it will not be the same, and then there will be two of you who weren’t as you were before. You should not punish yourself by risking the end of your marriage. You are looking at this in the aftermath. Please don’t forget you were conned and psychologically manipulated. It’s easy to look back now and pick holes in yourself, and forget how it was. Yiu have learned so much about yourself. Let you both benefit from this or it may well be for nothing.
          I know it is your decision at the end of the day, but please think about what you will achieve and what you could lose. Much love xx

          1. I forgot to mention that I am familiar with “the black mass” you describe. It’s a good description. It does diminish, it just takes a long time. How long has it been for you? It’s been two years for me. It seems to recede at the same rate I learn more about myself and why it happened in the first place. For me, I was damaged in childhood, which made me susceptible. It’s not an excuse, it’s just a fact, a piece in the puzzle. I don’t want my childhood damage to now destroy my marriage or my husband. It’s not his problem, it is mine, and I’m dealing with it as best I can. Xx

          2. Thank you blackunicorn,
            I really appreciate your words and I know what you are trying to say. I’m not sure how to fix it without the truth of what happened, it’s been nearly a year, I have been masking it, trying to not let it into our relationship but it’s finding it’s way in anyway. Do we keep going as we are? To be honest I’m tired of being afraid of the unknown, we all fear the unknown it could be dark, it could be devastating, or it could be a different light path, at the end.
            All I know is that it’s not going to go away. It will always be there as a weight. Who knows, I guess that is the point.

            Are You British lovely? I only ask because I use “much love”, or “big love” as a sign off with family.
            I found it comforting, like a big virtual hug.. thank you Qx

          3. Haha … I will amend my ways and serve penance! The Fonejaker skits do make me laugh though…

          4. Quasi – a year post N-engagement is no way near long enough…you still have Emotional Thinking of sorts – of guilt. Please give yourself more time to come to terms with things! Only you need to know the truth, because it is your truth, and your journey, in that it a culmination of many past things that are personal to you. Believe me, I speak from experience. I have had (still do, but not as bad) the black mass, and it was very tempting to tell my husband in the beginning. It was like standing on a ledge and being tempted to jump. Partly what stopped me was the realisation I could never adequately explain what happened to anyone who has not been a narc victim. If they can’t understand then you have immediately lost. Please wait. X

      3. Sorry about double post – WordPress had me believe the first attempt was unsuccessful! Getting duped by WordPress lol…

    3. Quasi – so brave and so beautiful.
      I sense from your writings the quality of your person. You appear to be one of the loveliest and and most thoughtful contributors to this blog and even that is an understatement.
      When a woman finds herself in the golden period with a narcissist it is like there is a current that runs between you. We have wordless conversations, so much so because they read our weaknesses and appeal to the darkest corners of our minds. There is an electricity waiting to erupt. It is undeniable.
      We are not our mistakes. No person is. We are however a ‘Sitting Target’ as HG teaches us. I am so sorry that you live with this pain caused by someone who chose you so purposefully to endure it.
      When our minds are tired we will still think of these people but due to our experiences our defences will be drawn.
      I love this quote: “I loved you head over handle bars like my first bicycle accident. Before the mouthful of gravel I swore we were flying”.
      As you so wisely once said, we have your back. Thank you so much for sharing your heart ❤️ xxx

    4. Quasi, I’ve been reading through all of the posts in this thread again. I can feel your pain coming through. Infidelity in a symptom of a disease in the marriage, it is not the disease itself. The disease is the sum of all of the unmet/uncommunicated needs on both sides and the resulting resentments all swept up under the pretty rug on the living room floor.

      My husband had an affair 20 years ago. My comment about keeping secrets being mercy for some was related to that. He planned to take his secret to his grave and it would’ve saved me a great deal of pain and suffering had he been successful. She pushed him to choose and he chose me and his family and ended things with her and didn’t want to hurt me. It was over two years after the affair was over before her cryptic, anonymous, insidious messages became clear enough for me to figure it out. (It really was like Fatal Attraction sans the bunny boiling.) She would not stop until I knew. An autopsy of the situation revealed a host of issues in the marriage that were not attended to or even discussed. Lack of communication of ones needs leaves a crack in the marriage for another to get in. We worked through it and came out stronger on the other side. I got to a place where I was thankful for it. We are still together.

      There is complacency in a marriage and taking each other for granted. Cycles of this repeat over and over and I have spent my entire adult life looking for “more”. I also lost a great deal of weight and know what that does to a person. You cannot be unchanged after that.
      I still haven’t learned my lesson to articulate my needs. In fact, I push them down where they don’t see the light of day. Except they can be seen (on my ever-expanding ass) as I eat them. You see, the advantage of emotional eating is two-fold. I get to eat my feelings so I don’t have to express them and I insulate myself so as not to be attractive. Win, win, right? Nope, not by a long shot. Emotional thinking is driving the bus right now.

      You are brave Quasi. Much braver than I. We all have dragons that need slaying. You are ready to face yours. I’m in an insulating cycle at the moment. All my best to you sweet lady. I wish the most benevolent outcome for you and your precious family.

      MB x

      1. Wow.. I felt that. Thank you so much MB. Thank you for sharing your heart and thoughts with me. We are all brave in our own way. You have your own way, and it is beautiful.

      2. MB
        Ok…so a lot of thoughts went swimming through my head after reading your post to Quasi. I will list a few of them but dont feel the need to reply if I have waded into terrotory that is too personal.

        You say you and your husband came out stronger on the other side but you are now engaging in extramarital activities yes? In what way is it stronger?
        Do you think any of that is remotely revenge or just helps you to rationalize that what you are doing just results from the fact that people may still have unmet needs despite being in what appears or is regarded as a committed relationship?
        You say you stuff your feelings down even though it appears you have the perfect gateway to having that conversation with him without divulging to him (and hurting him) about your activities, in that you could say to him something along the lines of:
        You know how you had those unmet feelings that precipitated you entering into an affair? (Then list those he acknowledged). Well I find that I am experiencing those things also (add any others that differ from his) and would like to talk about how we can address those things together instead of looking outward to others.
        Do you avoid that because you really don’t believe he is capable of being able to produce the excitement that the narc provides because your husband lacks the interest to fill your unaddressed needs, or you just prefer having your stability and excitement separated?
        Have you just accepted your marriage as a joint partnership in parenting and nothing else?
        How would you feel and what would happen if you found out that your husband has had, or is having now, intimate relations with others?
        Are you entertaining the thought at all (even subconsciously) that if he finds out about your affair that it will allow for the marriage to end? that it will be “even” with neither of you being able to point a finger at the other?

        Again-these are just thoughts that come to me while reading and are not meant to hurt or judge you at all MB, and dont feel the need to reply.


        1. NA, thank you so much for your feedback and you have brought up some valid points. I have mad respect for you and have often wondered what NA would do if she was at the helm of my life. You seem to really know yourself and I am envious of that. I wish we could sit down and have some wine and girl talk, but this is as close as we will get to that unfortunately. So I apologize in advance for the epic post.

          Our marriage was stronger after the affair for about 5 or so years. We put in a lot of effort during that time, but then drifted back apart as life tends to get in the way and we go on autopilot. We fell back into our old habits and I spent the next 7 years unhappy, unfulfilled, and not knowing what to do about it. I spent that time with one foot out the door and even seriously considered suicide as a way out. I became a human “doing”, not a human “being”. I started several businesses and worked a lot of hours to escape and to look for fulfillment. I fantasized about being out on my own, being divorced, being with someone else, being dead.

          In early 2013, I had a good paying job,had lost 65 lbs, was weary of my search for “more” and I decided to strike out on my own. I wanted to discover the life I felt I was cheated out of by entering into a serious committed relationship at such a young age. I packed what I could fit into my car and drove away not even looking in the rear view mirror one day while my husband was at work. I was gone and it felt good. I signed a one year lease and had no regrets. Going back was not even in my consciousness as an option.

          Then he got home. He was a wreck. It literally almost killed him. He claims he had no idea I was unhappy. I was his support system, but I couldn’t help him through this. I couldn’t enjoy my freedom because he was so miserable and I felt responsible. Although he’s a normal, love bombing began like nobody’s business. I told him it was too little too late and I would not come back home unless I could promise it would be forever. He made a lot of changes, big changes and even started therapy. We did some couples therapy also and after 6 months I was worn down and convinced that going back home was the right thing to do although I couldn’t promise forever.

          I’ve never felt the need to get revenge on him or get even with him for his affair. I’ve never been attracted to him and there’s never been passion from my perspective. I love him, but it’s in a familial way if that makes sense. We are family. We sort of grew up together. He is attracted to me and I don’t think he feels the lack of passion. (Or maybe he just doesn’t say it either.) please forgive me God for saying this, but I cannot bear to kiss him or breathe him in. All the talk on the blog about falling in smell with someone… I don’t know what can be done about that. We don’t have many common interests and he is mostly boring to me, but I depend on him to be there. He is my steady rock.

          I’ve never had physical relations with anyone else or even what can be considered as kissing another man. But I want the passion. I want the chemistry, the desire. Just once, at least once before I shuffle off this mortal coil or get so old and dried up that I can’t attract anyone. Is one proper kiss too much to ask?

          What would happen if I found out he was having an affair? First, I would be relieved. I feel a weight bearing down on me that I am responsible for his happiness. In fact, be it true or not, I feel that his very existence depends on me being with him. I would have some jealousy, I’m not going to lie. He’s been mine for so long and I take that for granted. But really, at the end of the day, he deserves somebody that can be whole hearted. He thinks I’m the only one for him. I think I don’t deserve him. When I tell him he loves me more, he says you can’t measure love.

          In a few short years, we will be empty nesters. It will just be us. I want to travel, he does not. A new chapter, a few years older, still looking for the “more” I may never find. I’m the common denominator in all of this. I am the only one responsible for my happiness and I know that.

          Thank you for listening.

          1. Huge hugs MB. I hope you find what you are looking for and/or find some peace. You sound like you are in torment. Xxx

          2. Thank you for the hugs BU! I like hugs. I am sorry that you spent part of your life reading that, though. I’m not in torment by a long shot. I am cherished and adored like a rare and expensive bird. I am treated very well and I am truly treasured. It is my restless human mind that makes me dream of how the wild birds live instead of being content in my gilded cage.

          3. It’s the sense of your restless mind that made me comment. You painted a very vivid picture, and I felt for you. Xx

          4. Omg, MB – I feel for you…I resonate with so many of those shared insights…I want to say so many things to you; probably will be back when I can compose my thoughts..

          5. Please do WC. When I hit post comment, I literally cringed. I thought of all the backlash I would deserve for being so sniveling on a narcissistic abuse blog. My point in conveying my situation was to demonstrate a different perspective of how ground becomes fertile for the narc to sow his seeds. (Ha, see what I did there?) It’s my testament to the making of a dirty empath. I’m looking forward to your thoughts.

          6. MB,

            I’ve been evaluating the ways in which I was vulnerable to meeting my narc at the time that I did. You explained your own personal vulnerabilities very honestly and aptly – I resonate with those and I see my pre-narc self in you bit.

            I was single when I met my narc. But my previous relationship left me with a feeling of deep disillusionment regarding relationships.
            That relationship was based on a good partnership; we were close, had a lot of things in common, worked together well (he had a business and I assisted and later did a spin-off of my own business.) So it was supportive, comfortable…and more like a friendship. But in the intimacy department I felt things lacking and he was not unattractive but he was not the typical type of man that I found physically attractive (also, he was 15 years older than me)…he also did not appear interested in working at that part of our relationship. I found this deeply unsettling; since I still felt ‘young’ and it wasn’t that I was highly sexed but I do place a lot of importance on that part of the relationship. (I did not date much, even as a teenager, but my first relationship lasted 8 years and was *very* satisfying sexually in a way that I got to safely explore my body and its likes/dislikes and in many others ways – almost the whole package – only he had no interest in moving in together and couldn’t commit to moving the relationship forward.)
            During the ‘partnership’ with the guy 15 years my senior, I recall feeling very dead inside (not suicidal) but just utterly dismayed about relationships and my future and a sense of what a waste – because I had so much more to give to a relationship. So that pre-narc relationship sort of fizzled out and at the same time I moved back to my hometown because my favourite aunt had terminal cancer and because I wanted to be around as a support. (Sorry for the backstory but it kind of sets up where I was at once I met my narc)
            Since I had never dated much I decided to date for the sake of dating…I met people online and in person (I did not like the bar scene etc..) and got very depressed.
            I recall after leaving my last long-term relationship how I thought: this is it? Really? That’s what I’m destined for…a mediocre, passionate-less existence – or maybe a sex-less existence, because I believed in monogamy? I couldn’t listen to the radio; any kind of love songs were depressing to me. But I still had physical needs so I entertained and – lightly investigated – the possibilities of a ‘friend with benefits’ arrangement (with no strings attached, ha!) but never followed through. I engaged in some online/phone sex but never met those particular individuals in person (now I realize those individuals might have been narcs.)

            It was then that I decided enough was enough and I wasn’t going to *try* to meet someone. And that, if it happened, it happened and it would be the old-fashioned way…if it were meant to be…

            Cue *tall, dark & handsome stranger* who showed up on the scene – in the unlikeliest of places…and naturally, we talked at length about topics of mutual interest and we ‘hit it off.’ And he was physically beautiful…I remember how I could not stop thinking about his hands…someone of his size would normally have clumsy, meaty hands…not him. It was not just his hands either…

            We exchanged contact info. And eventually met for coffee. He was a gentleman; I recall after the second date and we hugged our goodbyes; how disappointed I was that he had not attempted to kiss me…and yeah, when he finally did it, it felt like the first time I truly had been *kissed* -and not that day – but subsequently, the physical relationship moved very fast…
            I really believed that I had found the ‘whole package’…and he brought out my confidence in my body and my sexuality again (he was careful to never denigrate my physical appearance and always made me feel beautiful – even during devaluation).

            So he smelled, felt and looked beautiful – plus, we *appeared* to have common interests and similar goals for the future. (I’m leaving out the stuff that would have tipped me off that he was a narc, talk of his ‘ex’ because I wanted to address your feelings of never having been properly bedded etc.)…so, yeah, in my case he filled a lot of voids and experiences that I feel I had missed out on…

            My late aunt especially captured the differences between my 3 long-term, monogamous relationships. I’ll never forget her words: “Well, your first boyfriend was nice, a little odd and immature…then ‘insert 2nd guy’s name’, well, he seemed like a good guy but he was too old for you…But, this last guy…Hubba, Hubba Ding Ding!”

            Only he was a narc…and we all know how that ends…

            So, MB, I really feel you when you talk about how things are with your husband. Because I know for me; a man’s scent, certain level of physical attractiveness and sexual expression is very important…in addition to all the other qualities one looks for…Also, did I mention textures? I’m a very tactile person and people have different skin textures…this was a thing for me, I could not get past the fact that the (older) guy’s skin texture turned me ‘off’…whereas, my narc, texture-wise, was awesome all over…I wish I was not this way because it’s a horrible kind of everpresence that is like it’s my fault…I can close my eyes and remember the skin texture and bone structure of all my lovers…

            I understand the need for that excitement and certain cravings but I learned * the hard way * what my priorities are…I don’t even know how I feel about love and sex anymore…I have re-evaluate everything. Do I regret exiting the ‘good’ partnership with the older guy? No. I know my needs would never have been met and I would have forever resented him – it would have poisoned the relationship and I do believe in being true to myself and my partner. At this point, I’m probably leaning towards just being on my own…that may change, but I can’t see it at this stage…I’m not sure I want someone ‘to grow old with.’

            I think you really just have to decide what you can live with and what you can live without…you’re pretty self-aware and sometimes when we meet someone early in our lives we haven’t even worked out what our own true desires are. I don’t know if my novel above (sorry for that) helps but at least it confirms that sometimes that old adage really does apply “the grass is always greener…”

            And as for cringe-worthy posts; I’ve engaged in my own fair share…

            “When I hit post comment, I literally cringed. I thought of all the backlash I would deserve for being so sniveling on a narcissistic abuse blog.”

            Sometimes I’ve held back sharing because I feel similar to you…but I think it does help to share different perspectives that demonstrate how we may be susceptible to narcs even if we believe we are in a *relatively* healthy place in our lives and upbringing…

          7. WC, thank you for that epic reply. I found it quite interesting. I have found through HGs work and from the posters here on narcsite that the grass IS greener on the other side but only because it is fertilized with shit.

            I am very tactile as well. When I walk through stores, I feel the clothes as I go by. My husband has always thought I was weird doing that. My sense of smell and taste are very strong and I have sensitivity to the textures of my food too. I think it all has to do with being a HSP.

            Your aunt summed up my Narcs too: “Hubba, Hubba Ding Ding!” They taste good, but there is little nutrition. Sometimes I like to indulge in junk food and beer.

          8. MB,

            I enjoy your analogies! And this one is sooo accurate with respect to narcs:

            ” the grass IS greener on the other side but only because it is fertilized with shit”

            The reality is though that “the grass is greener” works both ways.

            I invested so much of me into the relationship with my narc that it is not so much that I’m completely jaded now…or that I’ll never trust again (that could be the case). I’m just not sure I willing to invest that much of myself into another person ever again. Regardless of the outcome, regardless if it would be with a normal or another empath.

            I really thought he was the one and if it didn’t work out; he’d be the last…well, it didn’t work out.

            So another analogy: investing in a narc is like a high risk/no return portfolio and maybe you feel like you’ll never have high returns on your investment with your husband but you’ll *always* have a return.
            So, in that way , I’m the envious one.

          9. WC, I have very high returns on my investment in my husband. We’ve been together nearly our whole lives. No doubt in my mind that he would lay down his life for me. He’s been a constant in my life when everything else falls apart. His happiness seems to revolve around me. I am an inextricable part of him. I have been subsumed in some ways which makes me feel caged at times. It’s difficult to explain but it is a good relationship. Just not super exciting or sexy. (No relationship can compete with the Golden Period with a Narc in that regard.) It is genuine though and is the stuff of fairy tales if I take the time to appreciate it. It is easy to become complacent and take each other for granted and forget to be grateful for what we don’t have that we don’t want.

            The poem by Mary Jean Irion of which you are most likely already familiar sums it up quite well:

            “Normal day, let me be aware of the treasure you are. Let me learn from you, love you, bless you before you depart. Let me not pass you by in quest of some rare and perfect tomorrow. Let me hold you while I may, for it may not always be so. One day I shall dig my nails into the earth, or bury my face in the pillow, or stretch myself taut, or raise my hands to the sky and want, more than all the world, your return.”

            There is something to be said for the comfortable and mundane and I am expressing my gratitude for having that in my life.

          10. MB, I’m so glad to hear this:

            ” WC, I have very high returns on my investment in my husband.”

            And all the examples of such returns that you provided – I think your husband is very fortunate too.

            Also, I actually have not heard that poem before… Thank-you for sharing; it is lovely. It’s timely for me because even though I’m emotionally done with my narc…the loose ends that need resolving *keep needing resolving* (his doing) and that far off day where I finally see those loose ends tied off is enough out of reach that I keep my eye on that – and sometimes not ‘today’…another way the obsession manifests I guess. I’m so obsessed with being done with him that today is escaping me by.

          11. I’m glad you enjoyed the poem WC. It’s one of my favorites. I’ve kept it on my desk pad for more than a decade along with “At Days End” by John Hall. I memorized it and recited it to the class in fourth grade. It’s my favorite. Probably a favorite of many empaths.

            I’ve had plenty of those days when I wish more than anything else for a normal day. It’s the normal every days that add up to make a lifetime. I hope you get the loose ends tied soon. He’s taken enough from you.

          12. MB,

            Remembering that courage is the first requirement, I would say you are on your way lovely. It takes courage to express so openly And honestly. You have been heard and you are very much adored and supported here.. so don’t put yourself down about expressing yourself, you and your voice are important.

          13. MB
            Thank you for explaining about your marriage. We have several commonalities, but that shouldn’t come as a surprise.

            Like you that thread about smell being so important in kissing about made me gag. I never have liked how my exhusband smelled, but I just put that down to how men smell, since I haven’t kissed or been with anyone else, either. I absolutely couldn’t stand French kissing him because of his breath. I did enjoy having my neck and ears kissed, but he stopped that once we were engaged. I guess because it no longer seemed necessary to him. I completely understand your always longing for the passion, chemistry and desire you hear others talking about, and also the frustration of never experiencing it.

            I understand the loving him a like a family member, too. I’ve felt that way about mine for decades. We grew up together, also.

            Mine used to say that when we retired he wanted to sell off everything, buy a camper and travel all across the US. That idea terrified me! I needed a comfortable home as my anchor and knew being trapped on the road with him would be a living hell. I’ve always enjoyed traveling, but not as a slave with no choice in where we go, what we do or how long we stay and that is how it would have been.

            You can still plan and make trips yourself, whether he comes along or not. Before my daughter married, she was my traveling partner. We had a lot of fun!

            Thinking about you. It is your life and your happiness. You do control it. My suggestions, for what they’re worth, is to start telling him what you want to do and then just do it. He can join in or not, that’s his choice. Talk to him more about how you feel and what you want. He might surprise you. He may have let his own life get stuck in the mud and enjoy you taking the reins and pulling him out. ❤️

          14. WS, I love this blog as a place to connect with those in similar circumstances. The main difference of course is that my husband is not a narcissist. Oh, and he doesn’t have bad breath. Ha ha. And no, all men do not smell the same or give off the same pheromones. I do plan to travel with my mother some as she enjoys it too. Thank you for the suggestions. I have always felt a great deal of shame around having needs and an quite uncomfortable expressing them. This comes from childhood and apparently runs quite deep. My happiness is down to me. If I don’t express my needs, how could anybody possibly meet them. If I’m honest, I don’t even really know what they are. Thank you for taking the time to reply. You are a kindred spirit and I am grateful to have met you.

          15. Yes, MB. We are kindred spirits. I’m very glad you’re here and always love talking with you.

          16. Hi MB
            Thank you for being so open and honest and in doing so, providing a much bigger and clearer picture of your situation. I was only getting bits and pieces and it was causing confusion (not that you owe me or anyone an explanation but have been very gracious in doing so). For instance I did not realize that your involvement with the narcissist appears to be strictly online until you stated here that you have never had physical relations with anyone but your husband. It also makes sense now that when you referred to your marriage becoming stronger that you meant immediately following the affair as opposed to now. Yes, complacency has a way of seeping back in. I didnt read you as wanting revenge and Im happy that you state that is not the case for you.

            I understand your need to explore those things that you feel you have missed out on in entering so young into a committed relationship and marriage and we touched on that a bit in a previous comment exchange. People tend to focus on keeping busy with other things (kids, careers) to keep those feelings at bay (and it seldom works) but its horrible that you felt badly enough that you thought to end your life. That speaks to the situation many empaths find themselves in-that they would rather take their own life than cause someone else pain. I also married very young and I told myself that there was love but the real reason was to have someone on my side to help me separate from the horror of my home life and bring my family with me. That failled and so did my marriage, which was inevitable looking back because it was more of a rescue mission than a committment. I did not do that conciously at the time but I saw it later and it made me sick. Where I wanted to end the lie, he upped the pressure for me to have children believing it would bring us closer. I knew then I would never have children and I left him. He also was suicidal by all accounts but I vowed to remained close contact with him believing that time would change that, and it did-we (as well as our spouses) can still speak in a very friendly way today when our paths cross. My narcissistic traits reasoned that there was going to be a death in the marriage either way so I held my ground. The relationship that I have now (and for many years) I describe as a partnership. There is companionship, affection, much laughter, we depend on each other for many things, etc, but there is no passion, we have not been monogamous (It is an understanding that we do not acknowledge it or do it in a way that causes the other embarassment or open disrespect and there has never been love involved), and there are other things missing that many people would require and that society believes is required to have a successful relationship. There has never been anyone else that I have felt I could have this arrangement with and I do not feel like I need to get out. So here I am. Is it enough for most? Not likely, and rare that we found each other and that it has lasted I would think.

            All of that was to say that I absolutely understand your desire to experience that chemistry with someone and to feel desired in the way that you imagine while not giving up your “rock” despite what people may think looking in. They see what you have but cannot see what you dont have. Feel you need in fact. Also to say that I am no one to emulate. I am apparently missing out on quite a bit according to the experiences of others. I do not possess what I feel is required to have healthy children, I understand sex to be about power and release-nothing more. I do not enjoy intimacy in hugging and kissing, and romance seems a fairytale to me, but that is not to say that it does not exist for others and that you should not have them or pursue them. Just beware the cost.

            You say that you dont deserve him and that he deserves somebody that can be whole hearted, and there I think: hallmark of a true empath-putting someone elses needs and happiness ahead of their own. Thats what the narcs home in on so stop flashing that cape around!

            MB you are delightful, honest, supportive and a whole lot of other wonderful things and you need not feel bad about or change anything about yourself unless you want to. I love interacting with you here and I’m glad that you have shared more of yourself and your story and hope that my questions and observations have not caused you any pain. My intent is always to learn more about how other people think and feel and not to cause harm, but I am not always the best in my approach.

            Thank you again for sharing and I think this may be my longest post ever, so you are a stellar empath for sticking with it and getting to the end of it. I imagine poor HG nodded off long ago lol.


          17. Wow NA. Thank you for your reply. I met the narc in real life. One fine day, out of the blue, I had a mysterious Canadian stranger move in to the adjoining office to mine. The instant I laid eyes on him and shook his hand, I was smitten by a powerful spell. He moved back when things didn’t work out. We occasionally text and speak on the phone. I’m content being picked up and put down but I admit that HG broke the spell.

            Thank you so much for the sweet compliments. I’m sorry that you don’t enjoy intimacy. Your relationship is testament to the fact that there are lotsa different ways to go through this life together. It is easier with a partner than going it alone. (Unless said partner is a narcissist.)

            You have not caused me harm or pain. Quite the opposite. I’m honored that you took an interest and I’m touched by your kind words.

            Thank you,

      3. I have the same issue with “chemistry” and kissing my husband. I feel as though I have to force myself sometimes. I wonder if that is because I have been with him for so long. I think he is a very attractive man. I just don’t have that “pull”.

        That said, it is 0% his fault that I had an affair. I am currently working on a way to feel sexual towards him. I wonder if time and lack of effort naturally allows sexual energy to fade. I have not given him enough attention and I am remeding that. He deserves it.

        The only two people I have felt extreme chemistry with were hot and cold in behavior and dominate in bed. I am determined to figure out how to make my sex life work in a way that surpasses that drama filled narc sex. It will just take effort on both my husband’s and my part.

        Honestly, the thought of having sex again with my original narc (before I was married), makes me feel ill. I have zero attraction to him because I now recognize how little he actually cared about me and how so much was about him.

        If sex can fade, I think it can be kickstarted. So here goes…

        1. Valkyrie, that sounds like a fun project! I like your post and I wish you all the best. And remember, practice makes perfect.

          I lay 0% blame on my husband also. But in my case, it’s different. I’ve never been attracted to him or enjoyed kissing him. I don’t have a brother, but if I did, I think that’s how it would feel to kiss him. We are not related that I know of and our children turned out perfectly. So all is well in the world except chemistry. That’s where the Narcs come in. Fodder for fantasy, eyes closed during sex, hubby goes from “brother” to sex god. I just can’t fantasize well enough for the kissing so that just cannot happen. It snaps my mind right back to ewwww so must be avoided.

      4. Thanks MB, I’m hoping for the best. Hubby and I never had great chemistry.

        My friend always said I “overcorrected” haha. I went from hot sex with a narc to trying to find someone who was nice and I deprioritzed sex as a requirement for a great relationship.

        Sex is still not my top priority, but I love my husband and I want to enjoy sex with him. He said he is open to trying things, but as a submissive, it is hard to be instructional about my needs. I like someone to just “do”. But I’m hoping once we both figure out what works for each other, we won’t have to keep up the teaching part.

        I took a human sexuality class in college, where we watched a man who looked like a high school principal break down the do’s and don’ts of good sex. I thought at the time, if my sex life ever becomes this boring, please shoot me…and here I am. Maybe that dry geezer knew more than I ever will. I’m about to find out.


        1. Ha Valkyrie, you cracked me up. I just want a man to take control and “do” also. I am not one to express my needs, desires in ANY arena but especially sexually. I’m one that will ride in a car with somebody and be burning up or freezing and not say a word!

          I agree that sex is not a top priority but as I get older, it’s moving up the list. I’ve suggested to HG that he write a how to give your lover everything she ever wanted that she didn’t know she wanted book for normal men. 😂

        2. Valkyrie
          It might be hard for him to just “do” if he’s never done before, and he may be afraid to do something that makes you feel degraded or offends you. Have you tried having him read something that you find eroctic and telling him why you find it so, for a gentle push starting out, instead of you feeling you have to literally instruct?

      5. MB, you’re like my sister from another mister. We have a lot in common. I also struggle to voice my needs. There have been numerous times where I have sat uncomfortably in situations (including being hot or cold physically) because I didn’t want to bother anybody. I find myself annoying in that aspect lol. Because I also like people who go after what they want and sometimes I do.

        I think so much of other’s needs, I sometimes ignore my own. But I am learning balance. I think self care is important and taking care of others is also important.

        NarcAngel, that is a good suggestion about him reading something I like, thank you! I like trying different approaches to solving things. Adaptability.

        1. Valkyrie, we can be seesters!

          I see myself as the polar opposite of entitled. I feel ashamed for having needs so I do not voice them. I am the middle (lost) child from a large family and we didn’t have a lot growing up. If I could just be invisible and have no needs, I think I would. I am the first one to stand up for somebody else though. I’ll go to bat in a heartbeat for another. I go after what I want, but not at the expense of anybody else. I’m a get it done girl, but I do no harm in the process. Nearly every situation can be worked out favorably for all involved and I shoot for the middle ground. There is almost always a silver lining. Sometimes you just have to look really hard for a positive. I’m good at that. At work, they say I wear rose-colored glasses because I am always the one to call attention to positives and downplay negatives.

    5. I did not know your story Quasi.
      Thank you for sharing it.
      I think you arrived on the blog after I did
      and maybe during a time I took a social media and WP break.
      Plus, I miss quite a few comments when only checking new articles
      Or recent comments.
      It seems like you are seeking direction in this situation.
      From readers.

      My aunt is a DE too.
      Who was also lured by a narcissist.
      He lied to her and told her he was single.
      When she found out otherwise,
      He already had her hooked and she has stayed with him.
      So I understand, that dynamic,
      her narcissist is married , she is not.
      Was the narcissist you were involved with married as well?
      The difference is.
      You broke free of your narcisisists spell.
      You understand why he is toxic to you.
      You are here making your life and situation healthier.

      When you stated your husband has become your friend,
      It made me think you may be at risk again if attracted to another similar personality.
      Narcissist or otherwise.
      Who meets whatever need you feel missing in your marriage.
      That may be your point of vigilance.

      You have been very honest about the marital affair and why it happened.
      Even seeing your own accountability.
      Trying to understand why and how to make it better for you and your family.
      This will help you to better understand who you are now
      and navigate away from such treacherous waters.
      Why this blog and HG, at the steady helm, is so valuable.
      It is place for you to release your feelings and get much needed feedback.

      You said you haven’t told your husband about your affair.
      That omission of truth seems to be an emotional albatross for you. Quasi.
      It will infect you from within,
      Devour you internally through your conscience.
      With fear, doubt and worry.
      Narcissists compartmentalize and rationalize cheating.
      As an entitlement.
      Empaths do not. We live by truth.
      It is always easier to lie,
      For those without conscience or guilt.
      It is harder to face the truth and tell it.
      You have exhibited much self honesty here,
      so I believe you can tell him.
      In your own way and time.
      Maybe premise it by telling him about this blog,
      what you have learned about yourself here
      and why the affair happened.
      How you were targeted
      And taken in.
      You do not need to tell him who the man is, especially if he knows him.
      But that is part of your truth sharing.
      Telling the truth to another about what has been done,
      is as much for you as it is him.
      If the omission of the facts is causing your Conscience to question who you are.
      To me that cries out,
      the truth must be said.
      For your own peace of mind,
      You just need to rationally approach the conversation.
      You could even direct him to the post here,
      which is highly honest about your situation.
      Allow him to read it and first understand what a narcissist is
      and how they seduce and ensnare,
      Make time for the two of you away from your children to talk about it.
      You told it here,
      that is the first step
      For you to tell it there, as well.
      Listen to what you feel inside
      and what you feel is the right and best thing for you and your family.
      That will lead your way.
      Telling truth is freeing,
      I will always advocate such.
      When there is no harm attached to honesty.

      I wouldn’t tell you what to do,
      only what I observe from your situation.
      Only what I would do if in a similar situation.
      But it is easier to be objective from the outisde.
      You know your husband and your marriage and how he will react.
      So only you can truly gage what is best for yourself.
      And your family.

      I wish you well Quasi and hope that whatever you choose to do.
      It helps to make you feel happier in yourself and marriage.
      That it adds to your vigilance to never being ensnared again.

      This black streak of the DE you eloquently spoke of.
      Maybe HG could devote a further article to that.
      Especially if empaths are aware of it.
      How can it be safeguarded against a narcissist ensnarement,

      1. Hi analise13,

        Thank you for this.
        I am going to be talking to him so he knows the truth about what happened, and more about how it came to be. I’m not sure if I’m going to go into specifics about narcissism. My husband met the narcissist as he came into my life as a friend and he came to my house to give me music lessons, my husband met him a few times.
        I appreciate your advise and agree with it.
        Thank you again, it was very kind of you.

  17. Sounds way to familiar. You are not a Brit at all, are you? You are on the other side of the pond. I know your voices. Alas it is I who has the photo and taped the messages……just in case

    1. Seriously? You do not think I am British? I use ‘s’ rather than ‘z’, I state ‘I wrote to you’ not ‘I wrote you’. I walk along pavements, know how to pronounce aluminium correctly, toast the Queen and drive on the left. I am a great fan of the US and its great people, but I am very much a Brit.

      1. Yes HG you are a Brit completely as I am are as British Earl Grey tea and biscuits … and Fish and Chips … or Oxford Pillow cases …and you have a posh accent too !!

      2. HG

        Your not a Brit….that made me laugh and remember reading a review of one of your books they were complaining how you didn’t know how to spell properly using “s” instead of “z”, you didn’t know American English and you should correct this. They did say the information you provided was great only you could not spell properly. My first thought was they obviously either do not care or have no idea you are not American yet British.

        1. Ha ha! This reminds me of my US ex. He used to get VERY het up about the differences in spelling insisting his was the correct version. Then on video chat, he would wave at me what could only be described as a ‘pamphlet’. Some American dictionary or other. I would sigh and find my compact edition of the OED and drop it down on the desk with a resounding thud.

          Compact in this instance means it is all eleven volumes of the OED shoved into two massive volumes of the compact edition with type so small you need a magnifying glass to read it.

          I would peer quizzically at the pamphlet and ask why it was so small? (I wonder if he ever worked out what else I was referring to?)

          ‘Because we don’t need all of those fancy words!’ He would yell at me.

          Yes, he was a lesser…

      3. How is ‘aluminum’ supposed to be pronounced? I have never thought about ‘wrote to you’ vs. ‘wrote you.’ I believe I use both.

        I can always tell a British writer via the idioms used. Americans don’t usually say ‘daft’ and most definitely don’t say ‘take the piss.’

        Likewise, Brits don’t know what we mean when we say ‘What’s up?’ (They likely understand the connotation because they’re not daft but they don’t say it themselves.)

        I used to idolize English way of speaking when I was a kid. I loved what sounded to me a formal way of beauty.

        But Americans have a charm in the naturalness, esp. the best poets. Whitman knew how to incorporate the beauty of everyday speak into sweat and toil. It took me a while to learn to appreciate it, and the best ones certainly have it.

        I am very good at a number of UK accents, however. When I have done them I get UK people erupting in stitches.

        Anyway, I agree what Quasai said about narcissists pulling such a desire out of you. I know what she means. I am also a contagion geyser albeit with many narc traits.

        I mean, just look how much I love to talk about myself. It’s ridiculous.

          1. An extra “i”? That’s odd. It must be like when a word ends with an “a”, they put an extra “r” sound as in “idear” Although I’ve not heard HG do this.

          2. MB
            They actually spell it with an extra “i.” There are quite a few words they spell differently than we do, but it usually doesn’t affect the pronunciation.

          3. WS, the evolution of language is fascinating. Pronunciation varies greatly across the US too. It’s difficult to believe it’s the same language sometimes!

            On another note, it must cost Reynolds a fortune to reset the machines for the foil that goes to the UK. (Or maybe they have a different brand of wrap.) My mind jumped to the challenges faced by aluminum foil manufacturers. Welcome to MBs busy brain!

      4. Windstorm:

        I wish WordPress allowed me to like posts but I can’t anymore! 🙁 Yes I just looked up a YT clip on the topic and the pronunciation was explained to me. 😀

        It is very pretty the way you English say it.

        It is Sunday evening where I am and I have to return to work tomorrow after a long vacay (or holiday as they say in the UK).

        But Stevie Nicks appeared in my FB feed and so I thought I would share for no reason than what the heck:

        1. Bibi
          We don’t want to offend all the Brits on the blog by lumping me in with them! I’ve never even been there although one of my grandparents was born there. I do watch a lot of British TV and read a lot of British literature and am somewhat of a linguist. But I was born and raised a Kentuckian.

      5. Most of the world spells and pronounces it aluminium (extra i). Americans are just stubborn. Don’t get me started on the metric system…

        I can say this because I’m American 🇺🇸

          1. Ha, ha! Yes metric sucks, when it means changing all the tools and how everyone was raised to think. I understand the benefit to global business, but that doesn’t mean we should throw out an important part of our culture. It is our culture that makes us who we are.

          2. HG, see if you can squeeze al-u-min-i-um into the context of your next YouTube video. I’d be much obliged Sir!

      6. Americans are slowly inching towards the metric system 😂 ugh bad joke

        HG, what are your qualms with the metric system?

        1. I am a traditionalist. Tell me your height in metres and centimetres and I haven’t a clue. Feet and inches – no problem.

          1. Narc Angel

            Ha ha now we are on to let’s seen what can be added to the meal.
            Glad it wasn’t hot like habanero or ghost peppers.

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