6 Phases of Fuelling


Fuel is our lifeblood. Whether it is positive fuel from admiration, delight and love or negative fuel from hatred, anger or upset, we want fuel. There are many, many different ways in which we will manipulate you, many different machinations, some wonderful and others terrible, that we will use against you to extract fuel from you. These different methods appear during the six phases of fuelling.

  1. Seduction

A period when everything is rosy in the garden. We are the most wonderful person you could every meet. Kind, considerate, amusing and entertaining. We are generous with time or money, sometimes both. We are impressive in terms of our achievements, our abilities, the people that we know, the places that we have been and we just happen to like all the things that you like as well as we engage in our tried and trusted practice of mirroring. If we have chosen you to be our intimate partner we will gushing with love as we sweep you off your feet with borrowed love quotes, gifts and sensational love-making. It is irresistible and you will succumb to this intense love-bombing whether we want you as our partner in love, friend, trusted colleague or reliable family member. Our seduction is powerful, effective and is aimed at getting you hooked on us as we begin to drink from your positive fuel that you will provide to us during the golden period.

  1. Devaluation

In this second phase we have found your positive fuel has lost its potency. You are no longer providing us with the earnest and amazing admiration that we require and this is entirely your fault. The consequence of this is that we must continue to draw fuel in order to sustain our existence and now we must do this by extracting a contrasting fuel, negative fuel. This is derived by treating you badly, meting out silent treatments, shouting at you, provoking you and unleashing the whole malevolent content of our Devil’s Toolkit against you. We want you to shout insults at us in anger, we want you to plead with us to stop our torment of you, we want to see you sob in desperation at our continued abuse of you. Tears, frustration, anger and hatred are all delicious emotions which will fuel us and they provide such a magnificent and stark contrast to all of the positive fuel that you once gaze that the effect for us is considerably edifying and invigorating.

  1. Respite


We do not want to keep the devaluation in place all of the time otherwise you will break too soon and deprive us of our primary source of fuel. Accordingly, the third phase is one where we allow you some respite from the devaluation. We reinstate the golden period and you provide us with relief tinged positive fuel. This is of an excellent quality as it is heightened by your relief and joy at returning to the golden period. It also allows us to convince you that the golden period can be resurrected to you will not leave us and instead keep trying to recover it. We will alternate between devaluing you and offering you respite, back and forth between these two states in order to confuse you and keep you in situ. The contrast between treating you well and treating you badly also provides us with a greater degree of fuel as your emotions are pushed and pulled by us. This phase may last for years as we move you back and forth, one week everything is wonderful and then you are plunged into a fortnight of awful treatment with you completely bewildered as to why this is happening.

  1. Preventative

You may be pushed to a point of no return. You may have received some outside help from a friend or a professional who understands what is actually happening to you or it may be that you do not know what is happening but you know that you cannot allow it to continue any longer. In such a situation when you warn us that you are thinking of leaving us or that you intend to end our relationship we will instigate the preventative phase. This is designed to stop you from going. We will provide a massive dose of the golden period but we will also ally it with promises to mend our ways, seek help and change. None of it is meaningful but it is a desperate measure to prevent you from leaving us. We decide when we no longer want you, you are not superior to us and therefore you are not allowed, in our minds, to make this decision. By applying these preventative moves, which might be seeking pity, forgiveness, understanding and sympathy, we aim to stop your departure and then drink deep of the fuel that you will provide as you soothe away our concern, responding favourably to our stated intention to better ourselves. Your delight at hearing us say these things provides us with further fuel.

  1. Benign Return

Whether you escaped us or we cast you to one side through one of our callous discards we will also seek fuel through the benign return. Similar to the preventative stage but this takes place after there has been a cessation in our relationship. You try to stay away from us or you have been trying to get back with us but we have kept you at arms’ length for some time until we decide that we want your positive fuel once again and we approach you taking you back. We may seek forgiveness, express we made mistakes, that we were not thinking clearly and so on, all done in order to con you into resurrecting the relationship. If we ended it, you will return with joyful open arms. If you ended it, you will return delighted you have got us to agree to making changes. Of course nothing changes. It is all about the fuel and as you respond in a favourable manner, admiring us again, expressing your love and gratitude, portraying relief we will take all this fuel.

  1. Malign Return


This also takes place post cessation of the relationship. You may have ended it and resisted out attempts to hoover you back in. We may have ended it and you want to return to the fold but we will not let you as we have a replacement. In either instance we will not forgo the opportunity to extract additional fuel from you by continuing to administer terrible and hurtful manipulations against you. We may no longer be in a relationship but this will not stop us from lashing out, lying about you, invoking the assistance of others as we smear your name and doing everything we can on a repeated basis to cause you to become angry and upset and thus provide us with fuel. You may not have heard from us for some time but there will be some trigger, some opportunity and whilst we may not want you back or we may be unable to cause you to come back, we will still look to provoke and emotional reaction from you and obtain fuel. It is always about the fuel.



  1. Dear HG Tudor when the narcissists hits rock bottom, e.g. his lost his primary supply during golden period and he is highly dependant on her for fuel, she was his mistaken love, roughly how long will this open window of being at rock bottom last?
    he has secondary supply which is siblings and parents

    1. If he has access to supplementary sources (secondary and tertiary) he will not be at rock bottom. Please see the book No Contact for more.

  2. It bewilders me that people, in Real Life, are always so surprised to find that, upon their meanness toward me, I will pull the mat out from underneath them.

    How could they think I would do any differently?

  3. SMH-

    There was no Reply button to your comment, so you might not ever see this reply to your comment, but I wanted to thank you for your input concerning Codependency.

    For some, such as myself, I think Codependency is an ingrained from a very young age, and becomes a fixed trait. But, for others, I believe that what you say does hold true, and makes sense.

    I think it also depends on the psychological makeup, such as resiliency and how impressionable might be the individual. I think these factors might also be a deciding factor in whether Codependency can be cured, and to what length.

    For some, merely “being aware” is cure enough to intelligently and reasonably make decisions regarding the handling of particular situations in relation to their Codependency. I think, in this case, it becomes a matter of responding logically, as opposed to emotionally, which is, again, contingent on the individual’s psychological makeup.

    Just my opinion, of course!

    1. Wow very good but don’t box yourself into you can’t be cured. It’s possible if you want it bad enough. It’s just me ? Well I’ve been this way so long I don’t have the drive to do it. That’s the truth but you might but yes being aware helps with allowing us to see logic along with emotions

      Wow really good survival.

      1. Having one narcissistic relationship without and other signs of codependency does not classify you as Codepebdent, but if you have had more than 1 narcissist you may and I say MAY need to start looking a Codependency. At first? you may go oh that’s not me. I’m no Doormat! But study up on it and see if any of it fits. I have found that folks newer in recovery will reject all of this because honestly it’s your instinct to protect yourself from any further attacks and being labeled something feels like an attack. I remember thinking oh hell no don’t label me any damn thing he’s the one with the problem! I felt like saying so some pathological abuses me and now you wanna tell me I’m the problem ? Oh hell no! There is not a god damn thing wrong with me how dare you! That’s is how I felt but as time went on I began to see it’s not about labeling or being at fault. It’s about understanding why I accepted behavior I shouldn’t have accepted and why this had happened to me multiple times. For me it took the help of a professional to see some of my Codependent behavior. Now I know

        I’m not by any means saying all victims are Codepebdents by any means but the Codependent is the narcs victim of choice.

    2. Hi Nika, Thanks for your response. I do tend to lead with my emotions and had to learn from HG how to think logically. It never even occurred to me that there was a difference!

      I think being aware was enough for me and I am very, very resilient, but it was still a horrendous struggle. I feel the pain and can relate to the co-dependent thing.

      I’ve found that if I stick to my guns, as I am doing now having rejoined the ‘dating’ game, that the right types respond – not necessarily men I am going to fall in love with but men who are open, honest and expressive. I suddenly have four dates in the next week with men I really want to meet. They are interesting and attractive, and I am prepared with my HG knowledge base :-). If my boundaries are crossed, I will notice and I will respond appropriately (already had to with one a few weeks ago and I was ace!).

      Had I been my authentic self with MRN, I don’t think he would have been interested or he would have quickly discarded me (I escaped). It would have been a hit and run rather than a two year cyclone. I hadn’t really heard of co-dependency before I landed here and I struggled a lot with whether or not I was an SE because I don’t think I am that empathic. I have a lot of narc traits. I still do not understand why MRN chose me, except that he miscalculated. When the supernova thing happened, just as HG says (before I found this site), it all made sense.

      I too was in one of those states where I was vulnerable, having just separated from my husband. I wanted to have fun and maybe red flags didn’t matter because of that. But I never expected it to last as long as it did either.

      There were things about MRN that really helped me. He was calm, he was direct, he could be sweet, our chemistry was off the charts. Lots of good things and I know why narcs are a blast. But being manipulated and controlled are deal breakers for me no matter who is doing it (that is my rebellious streak – I am that way in my work life too), and I fault him for that. I just didn’t see the pattern for a long time.

      You know this is how abusive relationships work – bringing the water to boil slowly while the frog is in it.

      We have to become aware and take control of our own needs and wants, and our own responses. Even if co-dependency is a fixed trait, owning it and defending yourself because of it – knowing yourself – will help a lot. Maybe it is less a question of ‘stopping’ being co-dependent and more a question of figuring out how to navigate.

      Sorry this is so long and it wasn’t even my conversation! 🙂

      1. I think you see a Codepebdent get healed and respond to treatment when things are completely out of control in their lives and we land in therapy but I still think there will always be a tendency to revert back to it

        I feel Codependency is stereotyped as the doormat the same way a Narc is stereotyped a Somatic but there are so many more flavors than that. Many Codependents are quite successful but struggle to make it to the top because we are terrible delegators because we feel responsible for everything and in true Codepebdent fashion no one can do the task better than us which appeals to our need to be needed which is also why you see Codepebdents hyper focused on perfectionism in certain aspects of their lives. In the corporate world, we are often the Narcs right hand man.

        The heart of Codepebdency is deriving your self worth from outside yourself equating people needing you with your worth. The Narc also derives worth from outside the self. The Codependent gives and the Narc takes that’s is why this combo always feels so comfortable

        1. Lori, I don’t think I am co-dependent, then. I do have a tendency to want to fix people but I get bored of it after awhile. I also derive some of my self worth from others, as I think we all do, but I also very much need to be alone a lot. I am perfectly happy inside my own quite fascinating (to me!) head. I can spend days alone. Of course this is easier with social media and phones, but I have been living alone for the first time ever for the past two years now and I absolutely love it. Closing the door behind me and not having to perform for anyone is elating. I don’t think I could ever live with anyone again, except maybe my kids.

      2. SMH,

        Your comment was not too long, at all. It helped me immensely.

        Did HG teach you how to think logically, and not emotionally, by way of Consultation?

        I need to learn this, too, badly. I have a Consultation coming up with him, and I want to get the most out of it that I can, in order to get help.

        Do you know of what I should ask him? I need to write the questions down, because I will get nervous, and tongue-tied. I am not sure how to go about the Consultation. Can you give me some ideas?

        I appreciate any help you can give me. I don’t want to go into it without any clues of why I asked for a Consultation.

        See, I asked for one because I know I need help with the same issues you addressed, but don’t know exactly what my questions should be.

        Interview is an hour long. I feel that due to his “kind”, I will bore him for an hour. But, I still need help.

        Thank you so much, SMH.

        1. Hi Nika,

          I never had a consultation but a lot of people here have and they can advise you.

          I would have one if I were still in the thick of it but I didn’t find this site until a few months post-escape, when I was trying to be ‘friends’ with MRN and it got even more chaotic than when we were ‘together.’ I received my first silent treatment as a ‘friend’ and that’s when I found this site – Googling ‘why won’t he answer my messages’ :-).

          I then posted here asking for advice a few weeks later while MRN kept me on email for 10 hours, and HG was really good about putting the comments through and responding. I did not follow his advice completely because I needed MRN to do something for me, and in order to make him do it, I had to watch, so I couldn’t use, say, an intermediary. It was hellish but I got it done.

          But for a few indirect hoovers, MRN and I have now been NC for more than four months. It is not the longest time we have gone NC (6 months), nor the longest time without seeing each other (8 months) but it feels pretty final. He has moved, which has helped a lot.

          HG was great during my ’emergency’ and I imagine he is just as clear and supportive during consultations. I am sure others will tell you about their experiences with consultations.

          1. Well, Somatic Narcissist won’t stop Hoovering me, even though he got married after I broke up with him. I ignore him, but he is relentless. It’s been nearly four years since I broke up with him.

            He said such stupid things, like ‘he couldn’t stop taking explicit pictures of himself and needed to show them to me’… such a textbook thing to say for a Somatic Narcissist.

            This is sad for his wife, though she doesn’t know. But, I ignore him, and won’t tell his wife because I don’t want him to physically harm me, as he has done so before.

            Strangely, in the past, when I found myself still addicted to the thoughts of his Golden Phase, I would have wanted to hear from him. But now, he disgusts me to no end.

            So, I am still in the midst of it due to his nonstop Hoovering, but I don’t want to waste the Consultation on talking about him.

            I need help for my issues with Codependency, and issues addressed in HG’s book, Exorcism.

            Sorry, I might have wandered away from the subject we were discussing, previously.

            Thank you so much, SMH, for your kindness and thoughtfulness.


        2. Nika, The logical thinking for me came just from reading the posts – HG’s and those of the other commenters – and asking a few questions. I am not by nature a logical thinker – I wouldn’t have blown up at my narc mother last night if I were – but at least I know it now and as long as I have some distance, I can apply it. You won’t bore HG.

      3. SMH,

        I am afraid I will cry during Consultation and I don’t want this to happen.

        I am afraid of saying something or doing something that will make HG think I’m desperately pathetic. Being a Sociopath, he probably already thinks this, but I don’t want to cause it to happen, even more, by not knowing which questions to ask him.

        I have been regretting ordering a Consultation from him because I am afraid I will mess it up, somehow.

        I understand that the Consultation is about “me”, and not what HG thinks, but … I’m just not sure what to do, or say.

        I just know that I need help from someone who “gets it”, and there are no therapists in my area who get “Pathological Narcissism”, and how Codependents/Empaths are drawn, and sometimes addicted to them, and have difficulty knowing the difference between Unhealthy vs Healthy Relationships.

        Sorry for too many questions… SMH.

        1. No worries, Nika.

          HG doesn’t think we are pathetic and I am sure a lot of people have cried during consultations. I think he gets some fuel from the overall blog, but part of that comes from his own learning and growing (yes, he has had some growth I think). He wouldn’t be able to write what he writes without understanding our perspective, so it is kind of a symbiotic relationship. I asked him once if he got material from what we post. He said not really – more from his own experiences with intimate partners – but he does get some of his knowledge from us.

          I think HG’s intelligence can be intimidating but there are a lot of really smart people on here and we have all been caught up in the same sorts of things. Intelligence comes in many forms.

          Just being here on this blog has been a lot more help to me than my therapist ever was. I am very fond of my therapist and she does some things well, but nothing comes close to this. HG will get it. He knows what to expect. In fact, I am guessing that there will be many things that you won’t need to explain, as you would to a therapist, because he has seen it all.

          I would probably also be nervous if I were to have a consultation, so don’t feel weird about it. But I would just try to look at it as a learning experience and get what I can from it.

          Hope this helps.

          1. Thank you, SMH. I really like talking to those who have such intelligent minds. It’s one of my favorite things to do.


          2. SMH,

            To me, intelligence is an adiasa… the thing that makes a person feel “ya baby, bring it on!” I can’t remember the “A” word… it’s like what some claim that Oysters do. But, anyway, this is what Intelligence is like for me.


          3. My pleasure Nika – Survival
            You won’t regret the Skype consult at all. HG is very good at what he does.



          4. Of course he thinks empaths are pathetic! He wouldnt be much of a narcissist if he didnt lol. Its just that here he is in business and professional mode and willing to suspend that in order to effect the transaction that both sides want and need to acheive our individual goals.

            He is totally cool though in the consultations. Completely professional yet personable. Worth every penny.

          5. Thank you, NA.

            Right now, I am just having trouble getting my microphone to work on my tablet for Skype, and my cell phone cannot call the UK. So, I’m trying to figure out other avenues.

            I might be able to borrow someone else’s computer for Skype, so I will need to ask this person.

          6. Nika, Downlaod the Skype App on your smart phone. That’s how HG calls me when I consult. Nothing makes my heart beat faster than when I have a call coming in from HG Tudor!

          7. This is such a great thing! I just downloaded it onto my phone📱. Thank you, MB.

            I was going to do the Skype Video so that I could show him my cats, bunny, and dog… I know he doesn’t care, but I thought showing him my pets would be good therapy for me.

            But, that’s okay. He lucked-out. We will just do audio.

          8. MB
            Well I’ve learned my new thing for the day! I didn’t know you could Skype with an iPhone. I thought u had to have a computer. I guess it would still mess up a lot if you didn’t have WiFi, though, just like how FaceTime drops calls.

          9. WS, I’ve had very few problems. I’ve used it on WiFi and cellular. It’s like talking to HG on the phone without the long distance charges. Remember, it’s audio only so doesn’t require the band width that it would for video. You don’t actually think he would let me see him do you?

            I don’t use FaceTime so I don’t know how it compares

          10. MB
            Thanks. I didn’t even realize there was an audio only. I assumed it was regular video with the camera blocked. I’ve had a piece of cardstock taped over the camera on my laptop since I bought it!

          11. Windstorm

            I had no problem using my iPhone for Skype calls so long as I had a strong signal.

          12. Windstorm

            I would think so, I had no problems with my first consult I had with HG. Now I use my WiFi when I skype or FaceTime with friends and family.
            I wonder thou if the carrier helps to, I know when I moved back to Va I had to switch to Verizon due to issues with my orignal carrier’s cellular signal.

          13. Thanks, Twilight. My carrier is a regional Kentucky carrier that specializes in rural Kentucky coverage. Verizon doesn’t work anywhere I ever go! Lol! Neither does T-Mobile or Sprint. My family makes fun of me for not going with ATT, the only nationwide carrier that works where i live, but i just laugh back at them. My little regional carrier works great everywhere i go from Canada to Hawaii. It automatically rolls over to the local regional carrier. I’d bet that if Skype would work on ATT, it would work on Bluegrass, too.

          14. Windstorm

            Ha ha now I know of two places Verizon doesn’t work…Wyoming drove through it and not one time did I have a cellular signal (now this was roughly 15-20 yrs ago) and now Kentucky.

          15. Twilight
            Yeah. Isn’t Verizon the one that had the ad campaign where the guy walked across the US checking that his phone always worked everywhere? Those commercials always irritated me. Maybe if he came thru Kentucky he walked along the interstates. Sprint is like that. It only works in big cities and on the interstates. I’ve never understood how they can do that – have the signal only work in interstate corridors.

          16. Hello Windstorm

            I believe he was, he went to sprint. I remember seeing a commercial with him in it for them.

        2. Nika, do the consultation! You won’t regret it. Best $150 you can spend. HG is very courteous and not intimidating. I’ve had multiple consultations with him. He is one of the most non-judgemental people I’ve ever met. He has no feelings about you one way or the other which enables him to be completely objective of your situation. Ask him anything. Cry if you want to. You won’t get more precise and accurate information anywhere else.

          K, will you be a sweetheart and find NarcAngel’s advice to another reader on preparing for an audio consultation. I thought it was very helpful.

          All my best Nika.

          1. Thank you, MB, so much for your optimism and validation that it was a good decision to order Consultation.

            Sorry I am carrying on so much about it, but I’m sort of emotional today… more so than usual. I think it’s normal monthly hormones and ‘that time of month’ issue.

            I am also afraid of Consult for one other reason that I have not mentioned, yet.

            I am terrified that I will become infatuated with him, as I used to be, and it took me a long time to get over it. He helped me to get over it, but it was so painful. He saved me from himself.

            I don’t want it to happen, again. It’s the Cognitive Dissonance thing. I know he is a Sociopath, but he appears understanding, sweet and kind, and whenever someone is this way to me, it kills me, inside. While growing up, it’s all I ever wanted, but did not receive.

            So, inevitably, I become attached to anyone who shows me understanding and kindness.

            This is why I will no longer read his books, or listen to his videos. I am not strong enough to be entertained by his understanding kindness without it causing me to become desperately attached.

          2. So Nika, you are telling me that HG helped you get over your attachment to him?!?

            Maybe you should have mentioned that before instead of saying you were worrying about asking the right questions and crying. You left out the part about not being able to read his books and listen to his videos. Girlfriend, those were important details!

            No use crying over spilled milk. You’ve already booked it now. Just think of it as a professional transaction. Like getting your teeth cleaned. You don’t get attached to your hygienist, your gynecologist, or your nail technician.

            HG knows whatever situation happened. He is a professional and if he deemed it unhealthy for you to have a consultation, he would not do so. Of that I am sure.

          3. MB,

            I am worried about ALL OF IT. “Asking right questions”, “Crying”, “Attachment”, and “Cognitive Dissonance”. ALL OF IT.

            Yes, though I didn’t think it relative, at the time, I cannot listen to his videos or read his books. Plus, my last Narcissist was from Britain with the same accent and same deep voice. So, reminds me of him, too.

            Oh, I didn’t know those were such important details. I am a backwards person, and don’t always realize what should come first, or last.

            In fact, when I write poetry, I (unknowingly, at the time), write it all backwards, and then have to go back and turn it all forward, again, or else it makes no sense to the majority. I am also ambidextrous!).

            So, I suppose this is why I didn’t realize that those details were of greater importance than the former ones.

            I eat desert, first, and dinner, afterwards- although dinner is usually my breakfast.

            Thank you, MB. I will think of him as my … gynecologist…😍. Wait, let’s make that my… massage 😍… nooo, let’s say my Pest Control Technician that sprays the perimeters for Killer Spiders!

            Thank you, MB 🌹🌷🥀

          4. K,

            Thank you so much for your courtesy and time in finding this link for me. I am very appreciative and grateful to you 🌈🌈🌈



      4. Nika

        Re: falling for HG during consult. If it helps, we all imagine HG as handsome & sexy, but maybe he’s not. I used to have daily really fun phone conversations with two different men for work. I could’ve fallen for either, they had me in stitches. I ended up meeting both of them in person, and was so disappointed, lol, not quite what I had pictured. One was shorter than me and rolley-polley with a white belt and shoes! The other one who had a deep sexy voice was a tall overweight sloppy man.

        So if it helps, you might want to picture HG like one of them. Best luck

        1. Kelly
          I had that same experience when I worked in exports. A really funny, intelligent, flirty guy was our sales rep for booking ocean containers. We all loved him, but he was old and goofy-looking when he came for a sales call. I thought it just made him more colorful, but it ruined talking to him for the other girls. It’s often seems to me that the funniest, wittiest ones are rarely handsome. Maybe they developed their wittiness to compensate for their appearance.

          1. Kelly & Windstorm,

            I cannot help it, but I truly and seriously find the thought of a “headless suit & tie, with broad shoulders” terribly alluring. And the headless-ness is a clean cut, like in a cartoon; it’s nothing gory, or anything. But, he has everything else… hands, legs, and everything … else.

            And his hands are masculine, yet, with vague undertones of prettiness seen in piano-fingers… such as in the photo above, dripping in fuel. And, also with the hand in his article where he is holding the puppet-strings. I love those hands.

            His voice comes from within his chest, since he is headless.

            I will need to picture something entirely different so as not to become seduced 😔

          2. NA,

            I love him. His dark tuxedos with the tie is what I like to see him to wear. He does crazy things to me. Such a sweet smile, too. It breaks my heart.

          3. I wish I could buy Max Headroom off Amazon to be my everlasting boyfriend. We could be soulmates. He would be my everything. And, he would be fully functional in every way imaginable.

        2. I don’t have much expectation; I picture him as a headless suit & tie with broad shoulders. I don’t care about height. And, since he has no head, there could be no disappointment, there.

      5. Nika

        You’re still picturing him handsome! (BTW, Nice description!) You’ve got to think of him with a pot belly – I highly suggest my little 5’2” rolley-polley guy with white belt and shoes & go ahead and put a head on this one!

        You two are certainly going to have an interesting conversation with this icebreaker!

    3. MB
      Is this the comment you were thinking of?

      JUNE 24, 2018 AT 12:27
      No better place to get the proper information and an form a strategy for coping with this than from one of his own kind. HG is the expert in these things. Please consult with him. You will feel less overwhelmed and better prepared. Do not be afraid. He is very professional and many here can attest to their success in engaging with him on these matters.

      1. It’s not K. It was something about writing down all of your questions and then prioritizing the ones that were most important. It’s all good. I’m sure Nika will be fine as long as she doesn’t attach and become a stalking bunny boiler. She won’t be the first or the last! Another positive for HG to remain anonymous!

      2. K, MB, I was Dragonfly2.

        Please consult. I did take NA’s advice and consulted plus a couple emails, too. He’s logical. HG is thee expert. He is a gift to we empaths. He is honest. Doesn’t hold back. He knows the scenarios as evidenced by his writings. (Take notes. ) x

        1. Melinda
          I’m glad to hear that you consulted and that it has been helpful to you. I know that people are likely tired of hearing me suggest it, but I really do believe it is the best medicine, and now you know also. The reading and exchanging here is great, but there is really nothing like consulting directly with him. The focus is all on you and your specific situation rather than in the broad terms he must use when he is addressing us (and narcissists) in his articles. I wish you much peace in your continuing recovery.

    4. Nika – Survival 💙
      This may help dispel your fear about crying during your consult.

      Insatiable Learner
      DECEMBER 16, 2017 AT 00:56
      Hi Mary, I understand your reservation as I had similar concerns initially. However, I decided to book a consult with HG and I am here to tell you I was so glad I did. I should have done it sooner. I got a lot of validation, invaluable insight, answers I was looking for, and even, understanding, support, and encouragement. Yes, HG is a narcissist but because he is so highly aware, you really do not feel that he is at all. He is patient and even comforting. I broke down crying at one point and he comforted me. Just wanted to share my experience with HG’s consult. Highly recommend it!

      It can be located here:

      1. K,

        Thank you for your comment and also for finding this link. I really appreciate your time and thoughtfulness ❤️ I am feeling less stressed about it, now, because of everyone’s encouragement! 💜


  4. Why do narcissists look at their reflection in mirrors, windows, toasters?, smiling, admiring – do they get fuel from themselves?

    1. Last year I was a Maid of Honour in my closest friend’s wedding. A couple of days before the wedding, my MRN was constantly looking at himself in the mirror and said to me “I will be the best looking there”. Yeah, right, not the bride, not your girlfriend who is the Maid of Honour, but you… I’m sure that to this day, he still believes he was the best looking on that wedding day, and no one even remembers his face anymore.

      Moreover, almost each morning before he went to work, he used to ask me “Do I look good, or fucking awesome?”
      In the beginning of our relationship, he used to compliment me a lot, how beautiful I am, sexy, beauty queen, etc… And at some point it just stopped and became only “Me, me , me, me”… Why would I have bothered to compliment him when he was doing it himself. Even if I liked how he looked ( which I always did), with his constant looking in the mirror and admiring his own vision, it started to be annoying.

      Which leads me to the question if narcissists do really see themselves as physically perfect beings and admire their own appearance so much, or is it just a facade again ?

  5. Gah! You use the word edifying.
    I hate that word!! One of his favourites.

    Explains a lot for me thank you.

  6. Ok, let’s determine if I see it right: is this a malignant return, malignant hoovering or malignant punishment? – my ex malignant G, after my escape, after being threatened by high officials, after being informed through third parties that he is officially watched and investigated, after being warned by my brother (my brother is himself a very violent middranger who works as an IT police investigator) did the following: attempted twice to break my pc (total failure), sent a flying monkey to contact my brother to let him know he doesn’t care because he cannot be officially charged (yet) and recently initiated undercover contact with a female relative of mine (cousin in law who he knows she had been romantically interested in him at least one year before I met him). He did it undercover so I don’t notice but maybe just presume it. She now thinks he suddenly “discovered” her and keeps the budding relationship undercover, totally unaware of what he is and how he operates. What she knows for sure is that me and the exG had a thing, but knows nothing else.
    I should mention the G mallwared and monitored my pc for at least 5-6 months, meanwhile wrote and published a novel about him& me (full of anagrames and coded information about “us” and my character as the “film noir heroine” that is sadistically raped in the end of the novel), manipulated my husband into giving the official speach when the book was launched and was on the verge of starting writing the second book where I was supposed to be the “main female character.”
    Post escape he was left without main female character and with no direct access to me. All this mess started exactly one year ago when we “accidentally” met online through a common friend.
    What are my chances to have him fixated on my cousin for good? I really really want him to discard me.

      1. He is cerebral, all his manipulations are emotional and psychological and would never even come close to me, so I am not really worried. He enjoys plotting, ensnaring and hurting women via internet, mainly facebook, and uses what he finds in their pcs and smartphones to mess with their minds. Avid and extremely skilled NLP practitioner. I think you would like him 🙂 .
        An interesting case and a brilliant mind, but a total jerk. Ah, and his wife is a nice person and a therapist :))))))

  7. Oh HG I need a consult again .Just a quick update here , I blocked narc to my horror realised I had also blocked important contact by closing down my email .Lucily had it reopened .Here goes , a sudden email from narc should I call you blah blah .
    Bingo a Hoover , now I know this was stupid but I had to test it out .
    I replied yes if you have my number .Heard nothing since.
    I’m not hurt or bothered really , he is dying for some negative fuel From me .
    I realise he did this to deliberatly needle me and create rejection AGAIN ,it’s so obvious .Only for this blog I would be sent reeling again.
    I know the steps now .No negative fuel here narc , I won’t remind you what you said and you didn’t come through , I will ignore ignore

  8. We could be in the middle of the worst battle of wills, be it in person or via text, words and emotions pointing seemingly to the end, and he would suddenly calmly say, Everything is ok. Calling off the battle, he deemed the punishment enough and we should suddenly go back to “normal” calm “happiness”. Total narc control.

  9. HG, Just finished listening to your 3 part interview on “Free Your Mind to Shine” YouTube channel. The generosity you demonstrate in your responses commands a respect and admiration above all others regarding comprehension of the study of personality types. So interesting that a narcissist is constrained by black and white thinking, yet you constantly remind the readers and listeners of the complexities and spectrums associated with personalities; i.e. shades of gray. Your work is life-saving and I am grateful to you for sharing your expertise.

      1. I will try to find this and listen. I never knew about these Parts I, II, & III of a title like this.

      2. Actually, I regretfully cannot listen to these videos because they will cause me Cognitive Dissonance in that you are kind and caring in your videos, I imagine, but really cannot be so if you are a Sociopath.

        I know that this should not concern me, but that I should listen to the videos to be helped because this is what they are for. But, I get Cognitive Dissonance easily, and I just know that the black/white opposites of how I see you do affect me very much. And, I attempt to make sense of it in my mind, but cannot.

        1. Nika, Maybe if you think of HG as an encyclopedia or something like that – a source of information – you won’t focus too much on the cognitive dissonance. When I first came here, HG triggered me a lot because he is terse and calm, just like my MRN, and I couldn’t imagine having a consult. Some of the posts triggered me too. Now those triggers are very rare. If you are in need, it helps to face those demons and just power right through them. If MRN reappears and hoovers directly (he did but I didn’t know at the time what hoovers were and so I responded), I would have a consult too.

          1. SMH,
            Oh, this is a good idea! A British Encyclopedia 🇬🇧. I am not sure what “MRN” means. Thank you so much for the time you have given to me to help me. I am very grateful, SMH. ♥️♥️♥️

  10. All phases get used in my experience. I’m an empathic hopeless romantic. the golden periods keep coming, the love bombing every time I’d had enough, it was like she could sense it. Like the devil, she would randomly make mad passionate love to me, next day be talking about she needed to find her “true soulmate”. I was surprised at myself that I had lost control of my own genuine emotions to this horrible person. In the end it would have been less painful to cut my own throat and just bleed out. I believe that I always knew that it was some kind of “Mind Fuck” going on but failed to identify it as Cluster B shit…
    After many years of fighting the beast off, one day I uncharacteristically lost all patience with her and told her that I was moving her off my estate and into her own apartment. I’ve since regretted that move but she got what she had coming. She’s since gone no contact on me because I rejected her and caused Narcissistic injury, crushed the poor girls soul. She has retaliated by filing EPO’s in two states (negative fuel) and in one case stated that I was after her with a gun. I’m a nurse, and don’t own a gun, generally not useful in the healing process.

    1. Larry Beeler, I’m sorry for what you’ve been through, and I hope things continue to get better for you.

      Be mindful there are other Cluster B’s here, (Borderline). Yes we also can be difficult to deal with but I just don’t like that we get lumbered with all the narcs and psychopaths just because we (BPD) are also along same Cluster B spectrum.
      I wish we were on a different spectrum.

      1. I think Borderline is more of a mental illness than a personality disorder. That is why it’s called “borderline,” because of the traits it shares with bipolar disorder. Centrally important is that BPD can be treated with Dialectical Behavior Therapy. People with BPD usually want to change so that they don’t hurt anyone else or themselves. Narcissists don’t.

        It’s pretty silly that so many people still buy into Freudian classifications wholesale anyway.

        1. I don’t think that BPD is anything like Bipolar. I could bring out my scroll listing reasons of why I do not think these two hold common ground.

      2. Yes, it’s not fair that BPD’s get lumped together with Sociopaths and Psychopaths 😡🤬🤯. I know some BPD’s who are very sweet, kind, empathetic, and thoughtful. They will give you the shirt off their back, as long as you aren’t mean to them. If you are mean to them, they could easily maim the offender (in fact, have a burning need to do so), but then be sorry about it afterwards, and take them a homemade cake, or something (that they can sip through a straw).

        I also find BPDs to be painfully empathetic, and due to my experience with BPDs, I don’t care what any DSM Book, or professionals, say contrary to this, because I know from experience that BPDs are highly empathetic.

        And, f*** anyone who is not wholly and personally familiar with BPD, and is under the impression that BPDs are not empathetic.

        I feel a “cake baking session” coming on… 😍

  11. HG

    Do Narcissists in anchor relationships meaning long term ipps put the candidate ipss thru the same cycle that they would ipps if they were not the anchor relationship type?

    The reason I ask is I seemed to go thru the same cycle an ipps would. You have mentioned it’s rare for an ipss to be discarded but I believe I have been as I’ve mentioned before im blocked everywhere but phone but he doesn’t respond if I contact him it seems from what I know he’s done this to previous ipsss and he did mention to me that once he’s done with someone he’s done.

    It just seems to me that. with narcs who prefer anchor relationships that the ipps gets the shelf treatment and the candidate goes thru the whole cycle including discard ?

  12. I think that fuel to a Narcissist is of the same value as that of love to a regular person. Speaking from personal experience, we (I) will do anything for love. It is the driving force of, and behind, every thought, action, goal, and breath. So, this might help me to possibly comprehend just how incredibly important fuel is to a Narcissist. (“Incredibly important”, I know, is an inexcusable understatement).

    1. It’s not for me. Besides my basic needs, I care about knowledge, having fun, working for goals, etc. Love is of extreme importance — but it’s not the only thing. It’s also not something that can be earned.

      What you describe sounds as terrifying in its way to me as being a narcissist does.

      1. I like to gain knowledge, and I LOVE to have fun so much, too. I love fun.

        But, along with these things, I suppose I have always done everything in the undying hopes of receiving love, as well as my love being accepted, stemming from my earliest of childhood memories. It is all I have ever known. But, it has put me in the path of predators.

        All I have ever wanted was to give love, and to receive it, physically, emotionally, musically, poetically, and heart-fully, in as much abundance, as possible.

        Until only recently, I thought it was everybody else’s driving force, as well.

        Thank you, Christine, for your feedback to my previous comment.

      2. Survival

        I think that the comparison you made is quite accurate. Love is at the core of the human condition and existence. In fact the reason Narcissists are Narcissists is because they were children who could not cope with feeling unloved by a person who should have loved them most. These people can’t give or receive love because they never had it as children. So therefore they turned to seek reactions. Reactions became their currency. So yes you are in fact quite accurate with that comparison.

      3. Not for me either, Christine and Nika. I can’t even imagine what it means to want/need love in the way that a narc wants/needs fuel. Giving it out is different but narcs don’t give fuel. They only suck it up.

    1. Lori, thank you so much for your validation. It was kind of you. I am glad I checked back on here because my WP isn’t notifying me of all replies, only some.

      I don’t want to sound like a victim- cuz I’m not- but, as a child I really wanted that love from my parents; it did not come. I became so desperate for love- any kind of acknowledgement of my existence, whatsoever- and when it simply never came, I would choose “love” from anyone, anywhere, and by any means. It became my obsession, and my plight.

      The only problem was that in my desperation, predators were always drawn to me and quickly took to my side before any non-predatory individuals, who could offer me genuine love, were able to access me.

      The predatory kind always move in so much faster, and when one has not yet “ceased the power” (as HG puts it so poetically), then those of us who are obsessed with love cannot tell the difference between a predator, or a genuine non-predator. So, I would get drawn in to the predators arms, as opposed to the arms of a genuine person.

      Unfortunately, Narcissists are all I have ever known, even while growing up, so they are familiar to me, and their intensity feels right. I am very intense, too, when it comes to love. Some have not been able to handle my intensity, which only leaves me confused as to how to behave in a less intense way when it comes to love, physically and emotionally. I am not sure how to ‘not’ be so intense in love, as it is my nature stemming from lack of any affection, attention, or acknowledgement, whatsoever, since infancy, and on throughout the whole of childhood- except for that of abusive attention, now and then.

      But, I’m not a victim; I am a survivor, as seems to be the case with most everyone else on the blog, here, too.

      I’m sorry this reply turned out to be so lengthy.

      Thank you, Lori ❤️❤️❤️


      1. You are welcome. I do not know your background however let me say this I tend to be this way a bit and I was diagnosed Codepebdent. I have no idea if you are, but Codepebdents tend to be love addicts and I find that we are very similar to Narcs in that just on the opposite end of the empathy spectrum. Their childhood wounds are so deep the their true selves literally died ours did not. We tend to feverishly seek it and they avoid it. Vulnerability makes them feel weak and that reminds them of weakness they felt as a child so they made sure they never feel it again.

        It is normal for humans to seek love however the problem comes when we allow ourselves to be harmed over and over by someone who is not able to provide it. That’s where the work has to be done but wanting love like that is completely normal imo

        I have had 2 Narcs. A clear indicator I have some codependency issues

        1. Lori,

          I finally found the Reply Button.

          I sent you my last reply and forgot to tell you, that in your mention of having had two Narcissists, I understand.

          I have, unfortunately, been entangled with a Somatic who is still Hoovering me for two years now, even though this one is now married, a Mid-Range Narcissist (complete with a tagalong vicious Enabler), and before even these two, a Histrionic Narcissist who was not only psychologically abuse, but also physically, and spiritually abuse.

          Back then, with the Histrionic and the Somatic, I knew zilch about Cluster B Personalities, which made it all the more dangerous.

      2. OH wow yes I too have the temper. It does not come out often but when it does .. wow. I’m mostly the fixer and the forgiver but I do have a very narcissistic side as well. I think most Codepebdents do but Codepebdents come in flavors like Narcs do and have a very strong need to control their environment like Narcs do

        1. Lori,
          Yes, I see. I am still learning about Codependency and what it really means, and why we even became Codependent, and feel the responsibility of fixing everyone. It is such a heavy burden to bear, at times!

    2. Lori,

      I cannot find the “Reply” button for your new comment you just sent, so I found this “Reply” button.

      Yes, I am extremely Codependent which might be due to the fact that my mom was an Alcoholic. Though I couldn’t do so, I always felt I needed to fix everything for everybody, and felt responsible for everyone else’s troubles, to the extreme. I still do, but I am trying to get better with help from Ross Rosenberg, as he is insightful concerning Codependency.

      I also am so empathetic that when I hear of something bad happening to someone else, I put myself in their shoes, and their misery becomes my same misery, and I do my best to help them at any cost. If I cannot help them, I will have a really difficult time with eating, sleeping, or functioning. I remember, as young as four years of age, feeling intense sorrow for other children if I saw one fall down, or get hurt in some way. And, at such a young age, I did not know how to deal with these feelings of such pain and sadness that I felt for others.

      For some reason, all of the abuse, neglect, and family dysfunction turned me into an intensely, and painfully empathetic person, as well as desperately Codependent.

      At the same time, if someone does something purposely mean against me, personally, I have a red-hot, flaming temper that even I, myself, fear. It is as if it is not even me, but rather, an infuriated possession which takes over. Perhaps this is a deeply penetrating anger that stems from unresolved childhood issues of abuse in which I had no control, or protection.

      Thank you, Lori, for reading, and understanding where I am coming from, so to speak.

      I appreciate your replies and comments because as I reply back to you, I feel as if I am getting a better understanding of myself, so as to continue healing.

      My gratitude, also, to HG for putting our comments through, and enabling us all to correspond, and gain further perspective and insight, not only into Narcissism, but also into ourselves, as well.

      ❤️ 💚 💜 💙 🧡 ❤️ 💚 💜 💚 🧡

      1. Survival

        You will find that some here won’t embrace the Codependency thing but I have always been of the opinion that if you were in a relationship with one for an extended period of time or have had multiple narcissistic relationships that you have some emotional issues you haven’t dealt with. Completely emotionally healthy people do not stay in relationships with these people. They just don’t. We all like to think that we were just in the eying place at the wrong time when they came into our lives and while that is true in broad terms there’s a little more to it. We were carefully selected by these people because they saw a weakness somewhere. Just my take.

        1. Lori,

          This makes very wise sense what you are saying, and gives me a better perspective on my situation! I think you are “right on the money”.

        2. Lori,

          The other thing that I just thought of was that Intensely Strong Empathetic Traits & Codependency are a painful mix and seem to feed off of each other.

          When I feel other’s pain and sorrow, then the Codependency is right there to want to alleviate their burdens, sorrows, and pain.

          They seem to go hand in hand because I can’t imagine feeling so deeply for others, and yet not wanting to inevitably make it all better for them, again!

        3. Lori
          True. But there are many ways we can have been warped and changed by growing up with narcs other than just codependency.

      2. Windstorm

        What are the other ways? I have only seen this play out one of 3 ways : normal unaffected (which is unusual but possible) , condepent or narcissistic (both of which are on continuum) I personally have never witnessed it play out any other way but am interested to know what the other ways are

        1. Lori
          I am not a psychologist to know names of different coping strategies. For an example I would point to NarcAngel. I’m sure she doesn’t mind. I can’t see anyone calling her codependent, but I’m sure she will agree she was marked and scarred by growing up with her step-narc. She chose a different coping strategy than codependency.

          You say everyone’s codependent, normal or a narc. I am none of those three things.

          I am bipolar, have an eating disorder, a binge drinker and am so ridiculously shy it is crippling in social situations. I am very fearful and reclusive. I get along WAY better with dogs than people. It took tremendous work and effort for me just to be able to drive a car on a road with people I don’t know in the other cars, much less be able to go to college and hold down a job. It still scares me to have to go into a business and talk to someone I don’t know. No one could ever consider me “normal” just as no one would consider me a narc.

          I know that I am not codependent because:
          1. I know that I control nothing, not even my own life. Control is a fiction. Chaos is reality.
          2. I have zero desire to change the lives of others. We each must find our own way, and what I think and believe may not be right for another.
          3. I know codependent women and I am nothing like them. I do not get angry. I have no desire to “fix” others and I know no one can control another. We can often not even control ourselves.
          4. I enjoy the company of non-narcs and am very content living alone.

          I do not dispute that I am warped and distorted from living with narcs all my life. But I do know that I did not choose codependency as a coping strategy. My coping strategy has always been to run away and hide or to stay still, quiet and show no emotion. I don’t know if that strategy has a name. Maybe “avoidance”? That sounds fitting.

          Just as we are all different types of people, we respond to abuse in different ways. Codependency is just one possible way.

          1. MB
            Ha, ha! I’m not shy writing. I’ve always been able to write what I could never say aloud. Most of what I think and struggle with I keep hidden from those around me as much as possible.

          2. You are also a very special presence here MB! In fact, I think you should be the one to get to interview HG for a reader interview should he decide to proceed with that. I have sent him some questions for review but he has remained pretty busy. I think if it comes to fruition, you would do a splendid job. I pass the torch to you my dear!
            I have appreciated all of our interactions. I hope one day you do get to experience that wanderlust thrill that has evaded you yet. Hugs!

          3. That is kind of you to say Clarece and I am shocked, but honored. I make myself sick with anxiety on the days I have consults already! I would take one for the team and fast for a few days beforehand so I don’t throw up during the interview. Thank you for the wanderlust wishes also. 🌈🦄

            However, I feel the uh-oh in my gut. You’re not fooling me. Something is amiss with Clarece. I hope you will sleep on it and feel differently in the morning. You are a fixture at narcsite and a valuable contributor. Hugs to you as well special lady!

          4. WS! Your words and your energy here make you so loved. Your presence is invaluable and your advice and support has benefitted so many including myself. I’m so glad you found this group of humans to not be reclusive around. lol
            There’s no way I’d let you be shy around me. Not happening. One of those things you just wouldn’t be able to control. haha

          5. I don’t know, Clarece. I’m as stubborn as I’m shy. Mules have nothing on me!

            Thank you so much for your kind words. Your comments and your presence here on the blog mean a lot to me. And I am very glad and fortunate to be a member of this community. 😊

      3. Survival

        Thank you. Ive been a student of this subject matter a while now. Unfortunately, I have had 2 narcs and one of them twice. Sigh. But even with all the study I’ve done, i will often have some of the same questions a brand new person wil have. I have struggled with no contact and relapsed several times just like everyone else. If you are a Codependent, no contact is even harder for you ugh

        You seem to have a solid grasp on what your role in this dynamic was because believe me you had one. You were carefully selected for this reason. It was not random. This will help you a lot. Good work!

        1. Thanks, Lori

          Yep, No Contact is so difficult because of Codependency, but also because I get attached easily to others, and once that happens, it’s unbearable to let them go.

          But… once I do let them go, I totally and completely let them go and can easily erase them from my memory via dissociation. (A well-ingrained trait from childhood). But, it can take me a long time to finally let go, once and for all.

          Yes, I understand what you are saying about being selected by Narcissists. What perplexes me to no end, though, is that I cannot fathom how they know- they just seem to have a radar of some kind- that I am Codependent and an Empath, as well. (I don’t know what kind of Empath I am, though, since apparently upon reading HG’s articles, there are several kind).

          Of course, just like many, I have CPTSD, too. Also, ADHD… efghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz… and, OCD.

      4. Survival

        You may not realize it but we have the sixth sense for them too. We unconsciously seek these people because they feel comfortable to us.

        Narcissists and Codependents are quite similar only they are at opposite ends of the empathy spectrum. The wound is the same only it manifested differently in each and its much deeper in the Narcissist this is why Codependents are attracted to each other. This is also why you will see 2 children of a narc and one becomes a narc and the other a Codepebdent. In truth we have sought them the same way they sought us only we may or may not have been conscious to us. If you are a true Codependent normal guys will seem boring to you and you will struggle to maintain a relationship with a normal guy

        1. Lori 😵 I’m saying, “WOW!!!”, because this is so TRUE!!!

          I get bored with regular guys! In turn, they think I am rather intense. Some of the regular guys are cool with the intensity and think it’s wildly fun, but “older” regular guys sort of get nervous.

          But, it’s true; “regulars” can be difficult for me after a bit of time because they can seem dull.

          Yet, I know that Broccoli is healthier for us, than Cake.

        2. Oops, my reply was sent off and I was not done with it.

          I just wanted to say that I have no idea what to do in this dilemma of my craving intensity from someone, yet those are many times the unhealthy ones, and the ones that are better for me and completely sincere are not the kind I am drawn to.

          In our upcoming Consultation, HG, is this a question that you’d be able to help me figure out what to do?

          Do you have any ideas, Lori?

          Lori, you really hit the nail on the head 🔨 🔨 🔨

      5. I can only say when codependency was initially mentioned to me via an online support group years ago I rejected it and was offended. I am very independent and fairly confident and thought that could not be me but I when I landed at the shrink and have both a psychiatrist and psychotherapist tell me I’m Codepebdent well there was no longer denying it. It was in fact true and now I see it completely clearly.I just alway find weird that a narcissistic abuse site is full of non Codependents. That’s not to say everyone is codepebdent at all but you’d think there would be a much higher number since they are the victim of choice yet I seem lots of people embracing Super Empath. It just seems off to me

        I was fortunate enough to have good insurance that paid for therapy that helped me identify this stuff. The label doesn’t bother me in the least. It’s actually nice tolhave a name put to why I attract these people

        I can only speak to my own situation and others like mine. I actually didn’t grow up with narcs though my mom definitely had some tendencies she was not pathological

      6. Codependents come in many flavors just like Narcs some are the meek door mat others a quite outgoing demonstrative and will command an audience just like a narc

        Personality wise I am not a meek doormat at all

        Codepebdents can be quite unsuccessful fearing and type of success or the can be quite successful obsessed with being the best so that they are irreplaceable

      7. This. Is super interesting because I was just remembering that I did see that the lesser was a narc because he was nothing like the mid ranger now I see he was merely a different flavor

      8. Survival

        A therapist will tell you that you have to heal the wound from childhood and you have to actively practice healthier behaviors as in abstaining from these type of people but I am in the camp that just like Narcissism it’s not really curable in that we learned this in childhood and this is what feels comfortable to us so it’s not that we or the narcs can’t heal it’s more that we won’t heal. While we can see our behavior is sometimes problematic any sort of change seems more problematic. We have learned to function like this and it’s all we know. I do however believe that Codepebdents can manage their symptoms and behaviors where as Narcs really can’t if they do it is just to get what they want and it is for a short time only

        1. Lori,

          Thank you so much for your helpful comments ❤️. I think we are on the same page (here on HG’s site, but also in many of our thoughts).

          I have thought it over, and it’s sort of like you said, even though I know I am Codependent, it is still a nearly incurable trait to fix.

          But, it helps me to be aware of it and realize that I can’t fix the entire world. Besides, many times, they don’t want to be fixed.

          It’s comforting to know that my call to make everything better for everyone is not a “law” so to speak, but just a strong inclination I have with the name of Codependency.

          I really enjoy your comments and insight, and have learned a lot 😊. I am really grateful.

          And yes, the fixing of childhood wounds… (ouch, but I know it needs to be done).

          Hugs xxx 🍕🌮🍔🥞🍦

      9. Survival

        Pleasure chatting with you. Keep an open mind on whether codependency is curable as I said most therapists will say it absolutely is. I just feel it isn’t in my case as I have been like this so long but it could be very curable for you. Some folks take that label as such an insult as if it means they are weak. I suppose it could mean that but Codepebdents can come in many flavors and many are over achieving perfectionists . Like I said I find it very odd that there are barely any Codepebdents here and a ton of “Super Empaths” I Supwr Empath sounds way cooler lol. Hell I don’t know.

        I will say my self awareness is helpful in that it’s nice to know why I behave the way I do and I am able to manage my reactions better

        1. Lori and Survival, Don’t mean to butt in if it seems that I am, but I have found that I was very co-dependent for awhile with MRN. I don’t think it was my usual m.o. but I do think it is possible to shift along the spectrum, depending on what kind of narc one is dealing with. Mine was an MRN and I think I am ‘normally’ an SE but I am also clearly capable of being co-dependent for a time, maybe because I was a middle child. I went back to MRN a lot and felt comfortable as co-dependent for awhile. But I also think it was out of character for me and I kept the next narc to come along at arm’s length.

          I am saying that a label given to you by a psychiatrist or psychotherapist does not mean that is what you essentially are. You might just be going through a phase. Every person takes their cues from other people – people are relational, which is why narcs are so weird – what you are at any given time depends on what the other person is. It is a dance. I do think co-dependency is curable.

        2. Lori,

          I wonder if Super Empaths can also be Codependents?

          I think that part of the reason why I am Codependent is due to my empathy for others’ pain. I feel for them, so I want to help them.

          I have HG Tudor’s article about Empathy in my Pinterest so that I can read it one of these days. Before finding this site, I had never heard of the variations of Empaths.

          I think there is a difference between being Codependent and actually helping others in a healthy way.

          I cannot be cured of my Codependency, but as you mentioned, “being aware” of it helps me to understand better that I need not feel shattered for not being able to save everyone, though it still troubles me.

          I have learned that when I feel helpless, I pray. To me, prayer isn’t a “cop out”, but with trust in The Lord, Jesus Christ, He does make things right as I have witnessed first-hand ❤️.

          1. Nika, Glad you have prayer and the Lord. I have my optimism!!

            I think SE’s can be co-dependent. Maybe I am an example of that as are probably a lot of SE’s. I guess the question is more whether co-dependents can be SE’s. What do you think?

          2. Since you are so terse, HG, I took the liberty of giving Nika a longer explanation. Maybe K will pop in with the correct link.

          3. I might end up needing a Consultation every month for the rest of your life if you are truly able to help me.

          4. Nika, super empaths – HG’s typology of empathic types runs from codependents at one extreme to super empaths at the other. Super empaths have more narc traits than either empaths or co-dependents, who have none.

          5. Thanks, Windstorm. I was pretty sure I got that wrong but I don’t remember the subtle distinctions.

      10. Smh

        I was not diagnosed with a slight case of codependency I was diagnosed with moderate. I am in fact Codepebdent and even my parents would tell you they saw this dynamic in me as a child. I always needed to be the golden girl the pleaser when everyone else disappointed. When I asked how this happened I was told that I had internalized the voice of a critical parent. I think my Mom just handled me the wrong way. I do not think she was pathological nor did the therapist but simply passing down what she experienced as a child and as a parent she wanted us to be the best. So I would hear things like that’s great honey now to stay at the top. I perceived it as not being goodenough. This is why I say narcs and Codepebdents are similar they too internalized the voice of a critical parent but the voice hurt them so much that they just invented a new self to silence it.

        Was my Mom some evil Narcissist ? No not at all I had pretty good parents it just she handled me wrong and it manifested this way. We don’t come with instruction manuals and each child is different. What May effect one doesn’t effect the other

        Lol I still think it’s wildly odd that a bunch of “Super Empaths” all converged on one page lol

        1. Lori, I definitely get that critical parent thing and I do see how we all – narcs and empaths of whatever stripe – struggle with it. No idea why the SE thing happened here but as I just wrote to Nika, I struggled with whether or not I was one and maybe I am not, but it all fits from being very empathic in the beginning (co-dependent, I would say), to MRN struggling to control me, to my SuperNova explosion before I even found this site. But if I am not, so be it. Maybe I am just normal? 🙂

      11. Survival

        I don’t know ok the Super Empath thing those are not terms shrinks use. My guess is that therapists woiuld classify many of the classes of empaths that HG described as Codependents but I don’t know that for certain.

        Codependency is on a continuum like Narcissism people can have a touch of it where it doesn’t impact their daily life or relationships or they can have more whereby it begins to effect their relationships and types of partners they choose

        1. Lori,

          I am so Codependent that I find myself in relationships where the person needs to be fixed. They are not healthy relationships. I want to be in a healthy relationship.

        2. Lori,

          Maybe I try to fix people because I have a need to be needed. Does this sound right? Or, maybe I feel like I “can” fix them. Perhaps, my childhood left me feeling so unlovable that I feel like the only way anyone can love me is if I can fix them.

          I had an extremely abusive and neglectful childhood. I’m not trying to sound like a victim, because I want to be much stronger that that. I just want to escape the bad memories and live abundantly.

          The only time I ever got attention was through sexual or mental/psychological abuse.

          I don’t like those memories, but by hiding from them, I fear that I cannot heal.

      12. SMH

        Im not suggesting you aren’t a Super Empath. You may very well be. I’m just from a statistical perspective it would be highly unisual for a bunch if Super empaths to converge on a narcissistic abuse site when the narcs victim of choice is a Codepebdent there are few Codependents a whole bunch that will immediately tell you they aren’t Codependent at the mere mention of the word. Just seems statistically off to me but I don’t know. I also think most therapists would probably classify the SE as some form of Codependent but i don’t know they don’t use those terms so I don’t know. I have many SE qualities I also have some Narc ones too but I’m still Codepebdent

        Survival you have a good handle on this. The need to be needed and deriving your self worth from that is the very heart of codependency. You seem to have a good idea as to how and why you ended up with a narc but that alone will not insulate you from another Narc. I know this stuff and it happened to me again. Why ? Because I let my Codependent behaviors run rampant

        1. The SE is not a co-dependent, they are separate and distinct. Many people believe themselves to be SEs, when they are not. Similar to how many people believe they were ensnared by a Greater, when they were not.

        2. Lori,

          Maybe SEs are more curious and more truth seeking and more able to face their demons, so they converge here while co-dependents go to other sorts of forums. I know that when I was in my co-d phase (if I can call it that – the fog and unwillingness to extricate myself and ignorance about what was happening) I went to another site where I got support with lots of cluck-clucking but not a detailed analysis of what I was going through, probably because I did not want to know. This site is more like military school.

          I am more concerned to know what type of narc I was with than what I am. I know mine was a CMRN, maybe a UMRN but I don’t think so because he would have controlled the situation better (ditto if he were a Greater). That’s all I need to know. I am not married to him and I do not fear that it will happen again. In other words, I no longer think I have a problem. I think they have a problem.

        3. Lori
          I understand what you are saying. Many will associate a Co-d as being only clingy or a doormat and not take other things into consideration and reject that classification. I did not reject your suggestion immediately and did look into it both for myself and for helping to identify what my mother is. As with most people, I could see how some of the behaviours fit, but I can also see myself in other classes. That is why it is so hard for some people to identify where they fit. Its like when youre sick and read on the internet-you have symptoms of everything. But at the end of the day and if you are extremely honest with yourself, (or with outside and trusted assistance) you can see where you predominately fit it. That is why I like HG’s classification system of being predominantly of one class but have the “bolt ons”. I fit the Super Empath Saviour. I put no weight in the name or classification. It just helps me to see how the Narcissist will identify me and to concentrate on how better to deal with them. I do not think I am any more Super than anyone else and I did a rather lengthy rant about it on one of Doc HQs letter to the narcissist. I also do not fit ALL of the criteria for a Saviour (for instance I do not want to save the narc) but enough of it fits for me know thats where I am. Saviours take a bashing too because it is often seen by others as thinking they are so great they can fix people. So no, I dont think Im better because of my classification-it just fits me better than the Co-d. I do agree however that many are attracted to the name Super and for the wrong reasons (just like many prefer to think they are/were with a Greater). Maybe if they thought of the word Super as not meaning great or better, but as in Super loaded with negative fuel (in addition to positive) being attractive to the narc, and Super able to withstand abuse without breaking down as quickly, they would see that it is no honour to be classed as a Super and be less likely to identify with it. When I first got here I did have a negative opinion of Co-ds as being doormats and to be 100% honest-weak. I no longer have that opinion as I have learned much from people here and view it differently. I just purchased HG’s book Chained in order to understand more as I am interested in all of the classes. In part, you are responsible for me looking more into Co-ds by highlighting some of the behaviours I might not have previously attributed to them, so I thank you for that as it has helped me to learn more.

          1. HG, I read ‘Chained’ yesterday and have a question. Is there a co-dependency spectrum? Or either you are or you’re not?

          2. Thank you HG. I ticked almost every box for co-d according to your book. When I was younger, I can see how those behaviors could have been exacerbated and solidified had I been in different circumstances. If it had been a narcissist I met that fateful day at age 13, rather than a normal, my path would have been very different. Early in my career, some of these behaviors were almost my undoing. I’ve learned to say no so I don’t get dumped on. I’ve learned that I can’t be and do everything for everybody. I’ve learned not to sweat the small stuff, everything doesn’t have to be perfect. Most days I’m a feisty empath, but the creature stills rears it’s ugly head often so I don’t forget it’s there. (Yeah, I know what it is. How well I know.)

          3. I think ‘super’ is what in normal speak would be called a strong personality. Neither good nor bad. Just is. It is why I do best with independent, laid back types, like my kid, who luckily got his father’s temperament instead of mine and was born a boy, not a girl. MRN is actually a lot like my kid when he isn’t manipulating me for fuel – left brained, calm, a golden boy. My kid is boss’s favorite, grandparents’ favorite. I am least favorite in both categories! Kid was born that way, though, so I take no credit. I would not be capable of making him that way. Another interesting nature vs nurture observation. How in the world did I give birth to that?

      13. HG

        I don’t know about this whole Super Empath thing. I have many of those qualities. I’m very outgoing and quite confident but I have been diagnosed Codepebdent by shrinks that deal with personality disorders. I am not at all some meek little Codependent in fact when pushed I can get quite aggressive depending on the situation. I work with a Narc that will say I always have to make an entrance. I also work beneath my abilities because I like being the best and do not at all like feeling like I don’t have control over my environment. Many would tell you I work below my capabilities and even I know this so I do not know where I would fall per you definitions. I do not burn out and eventually go dark unable to function. I also often enjoy in some weird way the challenge of narc even though I know I will lose. I only know mental health professionals say I’m

        I do recognize my Codependent behavior now every time I want to reach out to the Narc I say to myself this is just Codependcy. What will I accomplish by reaching out? Nothing. He’ll still be a Narc but I also recognize I can relapse at anytime

        1. Lori, I would never work beneath my abilities. That is completely foreign to me. It is not so much that I want to be the best, though I do in a very competitive field (I will never be the best), as it is that I would get bored. Maybe that is a difference. And I do burn out spectacularly because I push myself very hard. I can be very competitive – not so much with other people but with myself.

      14. Codependency is always about control or the lack there of. You will see Codepebdents in many aspects of the control dynamic with different people or situations. They are either the controller or the controlled. Some Codepebdents exhibit doormats across the board they are alway comtorolled and others exhibit bother the controller and the controlled. I am am that type. That is why if you described me to some as a doormat they’d say oh hell no but a narc might say oh she’s easily controlled it just depends on the situation and the dynamic and my level of confidence in any given dynamic. Often an over bearing parent is a Codepebdent who fears losing their child. Where the Codepebdent is the controller they exhibit narc traits where they are the controlled doormat traits. They are either crossing someone’s boundaries or someone is crossing theirs. It’s always about boundaries control and a lack there of.

        I’m not trying to diagnose anyone or say if you were with a narc you are Codepebdent. Not at all I’m just saying statistically speaking theres got to be many here

        Just my take. Doesn’t mean I’m right or wrong just one Codepebdents opinion and I’m not a professional

      15. Narc Angel

        I think the attraction for people to assign themselves as an Super Empath is that these asshole Narcs batter ones self esteem and at least seeing yourself as a super something helps ones self esteem. I don’t know I just know there are a whole lot of folks diagnosing themselves as such and that statistically and clinically speaking that would be highly unsual.

        Like I said I have elements of both but I know professionals diagnosed me as Codependent so I gotta roll with that. Does that label really effect me? Not really. Just is a name for some of my behavior and means I’m a prime target for a narcissist.

        I have enjoyed reading everyone’s responses. I can even see differences between Codepebdents the same way there are differences between a lesser a mid ranger and a greater. Survival is different than me but we are still Codepebdents so it’s interesting to get others input

      16. This was a great little discussion on Codependency. I am glad to see this because I haven’t seen too much about it here which has always seemed a bit odd to me since Codeps and Narcs are like peanut butter and jelly. That’s not to say every Narc relationship is a peanut butter and jelly sandwich but peanut butter and jelly is a staple of the Narc diet lol.

        Anyway this was great. I love seeing people discuss what they think led them to this dynamic. We can talk about a Narc and they did all day long but you’ll never have a complete picture of understanding until we determine what our role was in this dynamic.

        1. Lori, I totally agree. I do not blame MRN for a lot of the dynamic. After all, if there were not something wrong with me I never would have stuck around to be so disrespected, so I do try to be self-critical and self-reflective. Though I do have a temper and am prone to lashing out it took me two years to get to that point with MRN. My boundaries are much more solid now but I first had to recognize that they were not there and ask myself why.

        2. Lori,

          This is true! There is a dynamic. Ya. I am still learning the difference between Codependent, Super Empath, Empath, and Nova Empath. There are so many!

          Due to Codependency, I will keep helping someone until it kills me… as long as they aren’t mean to me. And if they are mean and insensitive to me, but are sorry, afterwards, then, I will go back to Codependen-ithzing them, again. But, it’s like you agreed, we have our tempers. (I’m not quoting you; I don’t remember word for word. But, it was of the same essence).

          I liked all of your comments, Lori, and the others, too.


      17. This was a great example of two codeps survival and me who are different flavors of the codep. I think she is far more empathetic and from her posts has little in the way of narcs traits. Me, I have empathetic traits but I think probably less than her. I will assist and help others beyond what I should but only certain people and if I’m honest sometimes I will think of how it benefits me (very narcy) I do help random people but don’t have any need to all of the time. I do not like to watch violence or see people being harmed. I can be both assertive and submissive depending upon the person or situation. For me whether I’m assertive or submissive comes out is in relation to what the control dynamic is. But I will emphasize that it’s hard to know a persons traits by online posts but you can kinda of see certain traits and I definitely see her as more empathetic than me but we are both codeps

        I feel people newer in recovery are not as willing to discuss their part and will often see it as victim blaming and it’s not. It’s a matter of understanding why you were chosen and you did have a role because a Narcs life is one big theater production and he cast you in a certain part. You were but one cast member amongst many and many more to come

        1. Lori, my role is that I … I forget, actually. But, you are right; I had a role. I did not walk away- even when I saw the Red Flags!

          You know what? Sometimes I still think that I can help them to “see” and “feel” the love they have been missing, and get them to change! I feel like if I keep trying, I could show them, or is someone would just keep trying. But, I know from experience- logical thinking- that this could kill us.

          I really would prefer to be a bit less empathetic because the pain I feel for others sometimes makes me want to die. But, I don’t want to die because I want to be around to help others. (If this makes sense).


      18. Survival

        Lol I definitely think you have Codepebdent tendencies lol a d that’s ok, Awareness will help you lose the magical illogical emotional thoughts that you can heal them. It is not that they can’t be healed, it’s that they won’t. The narcissistic defense mechanism keeps that from occurring. Once you truly accept that things get a little easier. I still relapse too sometimes I will miss fake him and I will get emotional about it which is when I have to bring logic back to the table. Many a skilled therapist has worked with these people and said it’s not curable. If people trained in this field can’t do it , I know I surely cannot

        They have to go through life repeating this pathological pattern. It’s the pathology of this condition and actually it’s not just a condition It’s the very fiber of their being it’s who they are without they don’t exist. The Narcissism is their false self. If that goes away there is no one there

        1. Without their Narcissism, there is no one there… difficult to comprehend in the Real World. But, I do understand, and this is a wise statement.

          Take away the Narcissism, and… poof! Into the cloudy white smoke they disappear. They vanish. It reminds me of that song, “Puff, The Magic Dragon”, and then one day, he went away, and never came back. This song makes me so sad so I don’t like to listen to it. It’s one of the saddest songs I have heard, along with Seasons Under The Sun, and He’s My Best Friend (The Courtship of Eddie’s Father), and the theme song of MASH, and theme song to Mary Tyler Moore Show, and many others.

          Sorry for making this comment into a downer. Didn’t mean for that to happen. I think I’ll go cut my hair 😔 Whenever I get upset, I cut my hair. It used to be waist-length, and is now below my shoulders. If it didn’t grow fast, I’d be bald. I’m sure of it 😔 I can’t wait to get help from Mr. Tudor! 😊

          1. Nika, you are pretty funny. I’m sure HG will be amused by your song list, not that he would know most of them as a Brit.

            If my hair didn’t grow fast and thick I would be bald too. I cut it all off a few months ago then regretted it so am letting it grow back. It gets on my nerves, though it is one of my most noticeable features. Everyone thinks I dye it but I never have.

      19. Survival

        Do you see a therapist ? If not see if you can. They will get to the bottom of the codepebdency and whether or not that Is infact an issue for you. Remember we are not professionals. When I first arrived at at therapist I was convinced I had borderline pd because I was an emotional wreck but the therapist said absolutely not. Therapist said I had all the symptoms of someone enmeshed with a narcissist and or borderline personality disorder. Therapist said there’s an old saying lie down with dogs you get up with fleas. Lori you have fleas but you also have an issue with boundaries both with crossing them and erecting them and says I was completely enmeshed with the Narc. Anyway get professional opinion if you can.

  13. My Mid-Range father cycled from 2 to 3 toward me my whole life. By that, I mean daily and sometimes hourly. When I got older, he would throw in 4 regularly. He finally ended up succeeding pulling a 5 on me, but when he tried to instigate the cycle again, that was it. I’m done. I don’t think he knows it, but I don’t care what he thinks because he’s killed all feelings I had toward him.

    You can say you’ve got issues.
    You can say you’re a victim.
    It’s all your parents’ fault,
    I mean, after all you didn’t pick ’em
    Maybe somebody else’s got time to listen.
    My give a damn’s busted.
    — Jo Dee Messina

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