The Super Empath



It is well known that our kind target those who have empathic traits. Just like those of my persuasion operate on a spectrum, those who exhibit empathy do so as well. There are those we might regard as the “normals” those people who have some narcissistic traits and some empathic traits. As ever, when I use the words empathic and empathetic I state them with reference to certain traits such as empathy (clearly), honesty, kindness, decency and such like. I do not use the words in the sense of being in tune with the world and the environment. The normal are in the centre, possibly leaning one way towards my kind or the other way towards your kind. It is extremely rare for a normal to be ensnared as primary source because put simply, they do not cut the mustard. Their emotional responses are not sufficient, their empathic traits whilst evident are not sufficient to either bind to us or provide us with the fuel that we need. Such a person would easily pass a homeless person begging, a person crying alone on a bench or somebody who had fallen off their bike and injured themselves. They are self-absorbed but not to the degree that our kind is. They will help if they really have to, but they do not go out of their way to act in a way that causes harm to anybody else.

Thereafter come those who are empaths. Empaths are always targeted as primary sources. They often fulfil secondary roles as well. They are rarer in a tertiary source position since if they are an empath, they would be better suited to either being a primary or secondary source. We would not want those empathic traits to go to waste. The empath has a good range of empathic traits those of honesty, decency, having a strong moral compass and being a good listener, just to list a few of them. They may not have all of the empathic traits that we look for, but they will have several and exhibit them in a concentrated form. Thus this person would look to donate to a charity, hand a wallet in that was found in the street, help a stranger who is in distress, sit and listen to somebody who has problems and acts of a similar nature.

Next comes the Super Empath. This person is not a co-dependent. Both the Super Empath and the co-dependent have many, if not all of the empathic traits that we look for and they have them to a stronger degree than the empath. For example, both might take the homeless person under their wing and take them to a shelter, maybe even house them themselves for a period of time. They would try and locate the person who had lost their wallet in order to hand it back in person rather than say hand it in at a police station first. They will listen to the person with problems and then offer practical solutions to resolve those difficulties. The co-dependent gains validation from such acts through giving and has to do this to an excessive degree even when it goes beyond what is good for themselves, such is their inherent addiction to the act of giving and selflessness. The co-dependent may not actually be that strong an individual (they are in the sense of the abuse that they can soak up) but they are not strong as they have no identity to assert, they must form one through self-flagellation, giving and not taking. They are masochistic in nature, driving themselves to the point of collapse and illness because they lack the strength to escape and the desire to do so from the clutches of our kind. Lesser Narcissists and Mid-Range Narcissists hook up with co-dependents especially because they give, give and give but do not fight back. They challenge themselves, blame themselves and always make excuses for their abuser.

The Super Empath is also a giver but whereas the co-dependent is masochistic in this giving, the Super Empath does so from a position of strength. They hold their ability to empathise, to heal, to fix and impart goodness as a great gift and one which ought not to be abused. They are drawn to our kind less because of the co-dependent’s need to seek validation of identity through a narcissist, but more because they are initially attracted to the apparent emotional output of the narcissist. The false strength which the narcissist exhibits at the outset of the seduction, the confidence, the apparent satisfaction with his self, that he appears comfortable in his own skin, at ease with others, capable of lighting up a room and so forth is a huge attraction to the Super Empath because that person actually sees something of themselves in the narcissist when the narcissist is seducing. That is not to state that the Super Empath is a narcissist. Far from it. But the Super Empath is just as engaging as the narcissist and thus there is a mutual attraction. The Super Empath is also more challenging to the narcissist and therefore is usually the recipient of some Mid-Range narcissists and most often the Greater Narcissist. This is not because the Super Empath is awkward or reticent but rather she will be forthcoming with her empathic traits once she feels that they have been earned. Accordingly, the narcissist must put the extra miles in, in terms of seduction to ensnare the Super Empath. This person needs to be coerced into sharing the fruits of their empathy but once that trust has been earned, once the gate has been unlocked the benefits are huge. The Super Empath shines with empathy, glows with decency and pours forth delicious fuel.

This continues during devaluation. The empath and co-dependent are easier to “break” in terms of causing negative fuel to flow. The Super Empath is made of sterner material and will resist the negative machinations of the narcissist at first. This may result in the narcissist dis-engaging if he does not feel able to impact on the Super Empath and seeking fuel elsewhere. The Greater knows who he has ensnared and knows once again he must unlock the fuel source, this time negative, of the Super Empath and once it is done the tidal wave of fuel is to be enjoyed. The Super Empath will remain, wanting to fix the narcissist, exhibiting again the same empathic traits of others on the empathic spectrum, but again being made of sterner stuff, their descent towards numbness and malfunction is far slower than that of the empath. The Super Empath will keep providing the fuel but deteriorates at a slower rate. The risk factor however with a Super Empath is that their own personal integrity is greater than the empath’s and very much greater than that of the co-dependent and consequently of all these three classes of empath, the Super Empath is the one more likely to make a bid for escape and thus leave the narcissist with a cessation problem.

The challenge of unlocking both positive and negative fuel proves an attraction for the right type of narcissist because this allows him to assert his superiority and enjoy the challenge. The reward is magnificent. Excellent fuel and such that deteriorates at a much slower rate. The downside is the potential for the Super Empath becoming “aware” of what is happening, becoming unwilling to dedicate further energy to staying with the narcissist to fix and to heal and thus escaping. The Super Empath requires fairly careful management by our kind, but the rewards always mean that this person is a challenge which is often accepted.

259 thoughts on “The Super Empath

  1. alexissmith2016 says:

    HG, would two SEs typically get along quite well, or would their high N traits irritate the other?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      They would get along.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        okay great, thank you so much! I have one very close friend who I believe is also an SE. She is a magnet to the nth degree! I love her so much.
        I asked the question because before I even knew what an N was, there was always a certain type of female who would take an instant dislike to me. Just a very certain type. I’m still not sure who/what, but I could see it in their eyes from the moment we would meet. I’ve always got along fine with the vast majority of what I now know to be Ns (and until I found your site, many of them I would have had no clue they were an N) so its not as simple as they’re just an N.
        A thought popped into my head before I asked the question that perhaps there could be a clash in another way, so I’m relieved to hear SEs would get along well. Hmmmmm I wonder? It’s very strange. I can only describe this look as one with complete and absolute hatred for me, but from ‘the off’. Usually before I’ve even uttered a word.
        Thank you

        1. Narc noob says:

          Alexissmith2016(not sure if you will see this as it’s a very old post).

          Did you ever work out the reason for those women disliking you? Sounds like you are a super empath; SE?

          1. alexissmith2016 says:

            Hey NN, I think so. But this is only my guess I should pose this question to HG at some stage. Yes SE and I can be quite attention seeking. It seems to be certain female narcs (the outgoing midrange type plus one female who is possibly a greater) and the very odd male narc (that’s quite rare but there are a few) who don’t like me.
            I think it’s because as you say I’m SE so I have high N traits and I don’t bow down to them. I’m attention seeking and so they see me as a threat. I can get on with most female Ns and the angels with a dirty face and victim types always used to make a beeline for me. I no longer have any male or female Ns as friends in my inner circle at all but I will keep them on the periphery to serve my purposes post knowledge and gaining strength.

            I’m intrigued why you ask NN? Do you have the same problem?

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            Also to add to my previous response NN. Whilst they may not fully recognise what they are, they know something about themselves is not quite the same as everyone else. I believe the ones who have some niggling of awareness about themselves and those who have a greater idea of what they are either think I’m one of them (usually the females). Some males (who still seem to like me) I’ve noticed flit between wondering whether I’m one of them or not.

  2. SuperEmpath says:

    Hi HG,

    1. So, basically the super empath is half empathic and half narcissistic? I feel that I am either or at different times.

    2. Do you know why the super empath is wired with more narcissisitic traits than the standard empath and codependent?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. It’s not as stark at that, but rather there are a collection of empathic and narcissistic traits which interact together and are more prevalent at certain times. The Super Empath does have more narcissistic traits than the other empath schools and generally stronger.
      2. An innate robustness which leans more towards self-preservation that the other empath schools.

      1. SuperEmpath says:

        Thank you, HG!

  3. Lishui K Springford says:

    I am very thankful to have learned about the Super Empath during one of your interviews. Further reading confirms that this is exactly what I am.

    I’m currently scheming my escape from my final Narcissistic relationship (having only this years discovered that this is what so many of my troubling relationships have been). Since it’s likely the last time I get to play this game, I want to get the most enjoyment out of it.

    I am currently living with a Mid-Range Victim Narcissist. She welcomed me into her home a year ago in order for us both to “help one another out.” She has been my friend for 30 years, and I have been her only significant friend for most of those years. I have been a secondary supply for most of that time, since I am intellectually and in all other ways superior to her, and also because I’m heterosexual and not interested in a sexual relationship with her.

    Within weeks of moving into her home, I realized what she was. I was able to do this because of my ongoing study of the Enneagram system, through which I identified her Enneagram type, and then I identified that she was operating in the “unhealthy” range for her type and then discovered that this was called “Narcissism” …which led me on the most wondrous course of discovery!

    I would like to hear your thoughts on the game I am about to play. Although I have been faking that I still get hurt and insulted by her antics and although I continue to pretend that I hold her in extremely high regard, I’ve reached a limit on it and she has sensed that she is not controlling me. She increases her efforts to frustrate me daily, with insinuations that her house is too full, that I ruin her life, that I cost her too much money, that I don’t do my share, that she is sick and that I don’t care for her enough. I am tired of the game because I’m winning every round and it’s become boring. So I have found a new place and will have access to it in about three weeks.

    My question for you is how I might string this person along indefinitely: how I might continue the “friendship” without letting her know that I know what she is.

    I want to continue to keep track of her goings on, as she and her family are an excellent source of education for me. I also care about her and want to be part of her life, I want to see how it goes for a person of her kind as she ages and everyone leaves her.

    Finally, having (in hindsight) been a Super Empath in so many previous relationships, I have few of them left. I’ve told so many people to F off and left them dazed and confused and on the verge of Narcissistic collapse because of the terrific revenge I’ve exacted upon them for how they misused me. I’d like to see if I can actually “save” a relationship instead of doing that.

    So far, I haven’t told her that I’ve found a new home. I am sneaking my belongings out quietly, leaving empty dressers and cupboards so that she suspects nothing.

    But I haven’t yet figured out a way to finally leave because I haven’t figured out how I will hoover her back after the discard I’m about to do with her.

    Any thoughts you may have on how I can do this would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This is a matter best suited to consultation owing to the need to convey more information.

  4. Nika - Survival says:

    I think I am a Super Empath, after all.

  5. Nika - Survival says:

    In my amateur opinion, I think that a BPD who is also Codependent would be very much like a Super Empath… compassionate, giving, highly empathetic, but also challenging.

    I would imagine that such an individual as this would be overflowing with exquisite fuel. This is just my inexperienced opinion, of course.

    I met one once, and everything you described pertaining to the Super Empath was exactly what she was like. Uncanny!

  6. Kelly says:

    They want Good people, charitable, honest people, because the sweet fuel for the narc is in pulling these people away from those good things, and polluting them with their darkness, degrading them to do porn with them, getting their minds infatuated with a deception that pulls the once actively Good person, wife, mother, church goer, away from being good and caught up in being bad. Narc are demons and their facade is that they’re human, their fuel is corrupting good people. That’s why ‘normals’ aren’t good Enough and don’t cut the mustard.

    1. Kelly says:

      I believe I’m SE. I’m done. I’m grateful for all I’ve learned here, and I think HG is brilliant for teaching us about – us.

  7. UncleC says:

    I see a lot of myself in HG’s Super Empath.

    I’m dealing with a narc family member who painted me black and hit me hard. Now that the legalities are cleared away, he has no power over me. He now faces phase II of our struggle.

    A narcissist friend is advising me during this phase. I stepped out of my empathetic box and am consciously using narc strategies and tactics to achieve an objective. I have zero regrets such is the seriousness of what he tried to engineer and mostly failed at while trying.

    Don’t ever cross one set of Super Empaths as we can turn off our empathy quite easily in unique circumstances. We are narcissists’ mirror image in many ways.

    Thanks again HG, your work has been most useful for my planning

  8. Supernova DE says:

    Thank you. I tick many co-d boxes (perfectionism, like control, will manipulate, can lie to myself, hate the limelight, low self-esteem, conflict avoidant).
    BUT in many ways I do not sound like a co-d (selfish, often do not offer help, entitled, love to be alone more than anything in the world, will hurt on purpose with scathing remarks, will not accept someone else’s opinion as my own, make my own choices, have cut off friendships and family relationships because I reached my limit, etc.)

    I think the confusion arises because a co-dependent, having partially completed transition to narc early on, has some of those behaviors. ie. manipulating, wanting to control, propensity for explosive anger when boiling point is reached, etc. If you are not self aware and/or just in the beginning phases of figuring it all out, you could read about a super (with their more prominent narc traits and supernova) and think you fit that bill when you are actually co-dependent. (curious for your opinion on that HG)

    That is exactly what I think happened with me. I trust that if I ended up married to a narc instead of my empath husband, that my co-dependency issues would have become more prominent. My husband’s positive influence and therapy at the right time in my life have prevented it from becoming debilitating.

    1. MB says:

      I feel much the same as you Supernova DE. I don’t identify with the narc traits as HG describes in the SE at all. HGs analysis during consult was standard carrier Empath for me. As I said in another comment, I’m just a mutt 🐶

      Narc marriage at 18 vs the normal I married would’ve led me down an entirely different path also. So interesting to look back on my life and to look inward too. I realize how truly blessed I have been.

  9. Supernova DE says:

    I have read Chained last evening and found it very helpful.
    Do you find it common for us to be confused as to whether we are co-dependent or a super? I feel like I identify with many co-d traits, but then also with the super empath traits as well.
    Thank you, I will likely consult soon on your opinion of me in this regard.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Some people are confused because, understandably, they cannot be objective as they might be.

    2. MB says:

      Supernova DE, I don’t see the Super Empath as described by HG and the Co-D similar in the least. I must be missing something or looking at it differently. I ticked almost all of the traits for a CoD according to ‘Chained’. But I don’t live that life. Admittedly, life could’ve been different for me under alternate circumastances. That’s why I asked HG if there was a Co-D spectrum.

      I do identify with what the creature is however, although I have a completely different way of “coping” with it’s effects. I’ve been ruminating on getting my mind around it. I can feel it and hear it’s voice, but I haven’t stared it down and I can’t name it like HG has. Maybe mine isn’t the same? It is absolutely not depression for whoever asked that. I have that, and it is different although depression may stem from the creature’s existence?

      HG, the Super Empath is not created like the N and the Co-D, correct?

      1. HG Tudor says:


        1. MB says:

          HG, As a truth seeker I try to find a label that fits, but I’m finding that I’m basically a mutt. Heinz 57 as we call it here! I wish I could know myself the way that you do.

      2. windstorm says:

        Alright, you’ve got me intrigued – what does your “creature” sound like? I assume it says negative things about you? Is it like the Wicked Witch of the West? Is it your mother’s voice? Is it spectral? (And I’m being totally serious)

        The only negative voice I’ve ever heard in my head was my mother’s and I scoffed at that because I’d figured out that at best only 25% of what she said had any basis in reality, so best to just disregard her altogether.

        I read Chained again the other day since itd been nearly 3 years and you all are talking about it, but I have a hard time understanding how anyone can defer so to anyone else. I always know what I want and always have. I may refuse to say what I want if a narc is trying to play his sadistic game by asking me over and over (like HG wanting the girlfriend to pick the restaurant and any choice she made would be labeled “wrong.”) But I’d refuse to say anything at all except maybe, “I’m not playing this game. Pick where you want to go and go there.” Once they knew I wouldn’t play, they gave it up or I left. In my experience, it doesn’t take much of that before the smart ones pick a different game.

        I’d really appreciate anything you’re willing to share about how you think, respond and especially what prompts you to respond like you do. Thanks and ❤️

        1. Supernova DE says:

          I agree with you Windstorm –
          Reading chained reminded me of myself in many ways, but also I was wrinkling my nose saying, “well gee I’m not like that!” I can’t imagine (as HG describes of his sister) thinking that I’d wear blue just because my husband likes it, or changing what I would wear, or not having an opinion, etc.
          However, I realize that things change over time. I think I was more like that when I was very young and did not know myself well. It is just so far in the past, and I am a much different person now, that I don’t recognize those traits in myself.
          Oooooor maybe I’m just a standard empath or have BPD and I just can’t figure myself out at all haha.

          HG can you make these assessments via email consultation?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I can.

          2. windstorm says:

            Yeah I hear you! I can’t imagine anyone not being able to say what type of drink they want out of a vending machine and saying, “oh, you pick one for me!”

            I agree that many of us may have been more that way when we were young and frightened dealing with a narc caregiver. But when we grew up and got out into the bigger world, we saw how things could be and changed accordingly. I work with middle schoolers and many children go thru a period when they abandon mimicking their parents and try on different personalities and experiment with different ways of being. That is only natural.

        2. MB says:

          WS, I will reply as I feel it will be therapeutic. I just don’t have time right now. I’ve got peeps to get paid. I’ll get back to ya, promise.

          1. windstorm says:

            Whenever. I’m open all hours!

        3. MB says:

          WS, This is the most difficult thing I’ve ever tried to put into writing. How do you describe a feeling? It’s impossible and even now, I don’t feel I’ve succeeded in doing it justice. I’ve hemmed and hawed, ruminated, gotten myself into a dither, written, erased, written, scratched out…nothing seems right. I’ve learned that procrastination is a manifestation of my perfectionism which is ironic but true.

          The nomenclature HG uses, ‘The Creature’, does not seem apt to me for what I have inside, yet I am unable to come up with ANTHING that is. I don’t visualize it because I don’t look at it. In order for the brain to see, there must be the presence of light and this cannot be allowed to see the light of day. It’s more like a rotten kernel at the core of my being than it is a creature.

          This is what I have learned:

          · The world first comes to us in the form of our primary caregiver when we are born and through the first years of life
          · Abandonment can take many forms, but in my case, the best I can tell is that it was due to enmeshment into the covert needs of the family system (I was the lost child.)
          · My individual need to be wanted, loved, and cared for was pushed aside. I had no way of knowing who I was. The feeling of rejection by the primary caregiver, which was mirrored to me, (unintentionally) caused my authentic self to cease to exist. If I’m not important to you, then I cannot be important to me either. Unworthy and unlovable, the self rejects the self, becoming an object of scorn and contempt. This causes toxic shame which is the feeling of being isolated and alone in a complete sense, haunted by a sense of weakness, failure, and emptiness.
          · The self must be escaped from so the authentic self then goes into hiding. The layers to keep it hidden become so intense, one loses awareness of who one really is. What great news! This means that the self-defense mechanism is doing its job. Here is the fork in the road where one either becomes narcissistic or co-dependent. The cause is the same. The layers to keep the flawed authentic self hidden are what differ.
          · Toxic shame wears the face of grandiosity. Grandiosity can manifest as self-enlargement or wormlike helplessness. Each extreme refuses to be human. One is more than human, and one is less than human. Both are grandiose. (The straight A student and the straight F student may both be driven by toxic shame.)
          · But here’s the kicker! Accomplishments do not reduce the shame. The more one achieves, the more one has to achieve. Toxic shame is about BEING. No amount of DOING will ever change it. We can change what we are doing but we can’t change who we ARE. There is a restlessness and lack of inner peace that flows from that kernel of shame. As long as we are DOING, and as long as we don’t LOOK, and as long as we are not REMINDED, we can be successful in keeping it hidden.
          · My rotten kernel rears its ugly head when I am reminded by suffering a shaming experience. (What HG refers to as a criticism.)
          · I suffer shaming experiences mostly around my needs. (Emotional and physical.) When I have any feeling, need, or drive, I feel ashamed by it.
          · My name being said aloud and the sound of my own voice shame me. I guess it’s because those are times that I cannot detach from what I once was. Nothing pokes my shame more than being “called down” using my name in a condescending tone. My own name being said by someone else literally hurts me like a punch in the gut.
          · When I suffer a criticism (shaming experience), it hurts in a way I am unable to describe. I feel it in a visceral way. It starts in my solar plexus and radiates throughout my entire being. It may last seconds, minutes, days, or years. I can always feel it if I look there. That is why I don’t. It is very painful and best to be stuffed and avoided.
          · My layers of protection to avoid criticism are: people pleasing, inability to say no, inability to establish and maintain healthy boundaries, not holding strong opinions, not asking for or accepting help, staying out the spotlight, staying “out of the way”, avoiding conflict, peace-keeping, being protective of others, perfectionism/procrastination, difficulty making decisions at times, and the most debilitating is worrying what others think of me especially if they don’t think I’m “nice”. I cannot bear for somebody to be upset with me and the tension of conflict makes me physically ill.

          The “healing” part of it has not begun, nor will it begin unless and until I become courageous enough to stare it down.

          1. windstorm says:

            Thank you for your description of how the creature seems to you. You did a terrific job explaining. I have to sub today and am late to leave si don’t have time right now to analyse and respond in depth. I will as soon as possible. Hope your Friday goes well! ❤️

          2. MB says:

            May God be with you. Substituting on a Friday! I hope the barometric pressure is high there today!

          3. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha! I can survive anything for just one day! Lol!! These are the same kids I’ve been volunteering with for the past 6 weeks. They have decided that they like me. That always makes it easier!

            I’m working on a long response to you. We have many things in common. Maybe how I dealt with them may be helpful or at least interesting. It has been enlightening to me to count my blessings. Too often I just remember the bad from the past.

          4. Twilight says:

            Windstorm and MB

            Would you mind if I commented from my perspective. I don’t like speaking much of my past, yet this conversation on the “creature” and codependent has pushed me to sharing a different view of a Contagion and what I believe makes one.
            It has been something I have been not just reflecting on sense HG told me this was the school I belong to, the fact remains I have always known I was different from others that are empathetic and empathic.

          5. windstorm says:

            The more, the merrier is my thought. Since I am a contagion also, I always love hearing anything you are willing to share. I personally believe feeling everyone’s emotions and energy is one reason I avoided becoming codependent and am very interested in how you feel it affected you. ❤️

          6. Twilight says:

            Windstorm and MB

            I have tried to write this many times now and I am overwhelmed with my own memories.

            When I was small I remember when I started to be aware of my emotions and others and feeling confused, because I wasn’t sure which were mine. I learned to distinguish between mine and everyone else, they still wanted to “make” me into what they thought I should be. I am stubborn and would decide what was worth going head to head with them. I spent most of my childhood in nature, if one looked you could find me in the stables. I have a love for horses. Just so long as I wasn’t dealing with people I was happy and they were not affecting me.

            I brought a snake home and put it in a trash bin. I was going to show my Grandfather, my Grandmother found it. My grandmother was afraid of snakes, why she was in the garage I never found out, I knew when she found the snake. She had him kill the snake and then call for me. He was amused, she wasn’t and I was grounded. I was always bringing some creature home, hurt rabbit, bird, dog etc. I crossed the line with the snake.

            I “see” people and their deepest wounds. Someone can appearing to be happy on the outside yet hiding feeling worthless and lonely. HGs kind is not the only ones to wear masks.

            This “creature” I don’t have one. I have experienced what I believe is a creature. I was attuned with my ex, I still am.

            Empaths absorb energy they also give energy. I am aware of how I absorb energy around me, I usually observe and not participate, what I mean is I flow with it, to participate means I “own” it and and express the emotions I am feeling.

            My husband went to kill me, I remember his eyes they were black and I remember feeling the knife across my throat. Something happened and for the first time he looked at me with fear. I packed my bags that night and disappeared. That night has stayed with me,
            The next time this happened was when I lost my child, I felt anger. He taught me two things, we were sparing and he told me to use the energy from his momentum against him and anything can be used as a weapon. These both stayed with me.

            Empaths absorb energy…..

          7. windstorm says:

            There are so many things I would ask you…

            Thank you for sharing. I know it is difficult. Especially when you’ve had such painful experiences. I have never been involved with such a violent person. You are a very strong person not to have killed him. I don’t think I could have shown such restraint. I can’t imagine how difficult it has been and still is to live with such negative experiences. You are a very strong woman.

            You seemed to get thru your childhood much like I did. I don’t know if I see people’s wounds, but I definitely sense how they feel, regardless of how they are acting. Do you find that this often annoys people? I mean, they’re often wearing that mask for a reason, trying to hide how they really feel. Especially if they’re trying to hide it from themselves.

            I think I observe and participate in others emotions, but often I send out a select type of energy that I feel will be healing if I sense someone could benefit. But I do love to be around happiness.

            We do absorb energy, but we also can release it. I hope that you are always able to release negative energy harmlessly. I know I have a problem that way if I’m not careful. I absorb it and it wreaks havoc with me physically.

          8. Twilight says:


            If you want to ask me something, please do.

          9. MB says:

            Twilight, I understand how hard it is to put down thoughts into words. I hope it has been as therapeutic for you as it has for me. The terror of having a knife to your throat by someone that “loves” you and should be your protector is unimaginable in my world. It is a beautiful thing to be heard and this is a beautiful place for it.

          10. MB says:

            Please do Twilight. I never would’ve dreamed in a thousand years I would be saying this stuff out loud, much less posting it on the World Wide Web! I’ve surprised myself. I’m not sure how I feel about it just yet, but I think it might be therapeutic? Either that or I’ll get visitors carrying a syringe and a coat that zips in the back!

            The cat’s out of the bag now! HG is too busy to erase posts and give me do-overs!

          11. Twilight says:

            Windstorm and MB

            I can not write my thoughts out right now, I am with my Granddaughter celebrating her 3rd birthday! When I am home later this evening I will respond back.

          12. MB says:

            Happy Birthday to that sweet girl! Y’all have fun Twilight!

          13. windstorm says:

            Enjoy! 🎂. Threes such a happy age!

          14. windstorm says:

            Thank you again for your description of your creature. It was spooky how much of what you wrote mimicked my own experience! Even the procrastination. While I can be a perfectionist, i rarely chose to anymore. I’m usually of the thinking, “Good enough for government work.” Appropriate since I was a teacher. lol!

            I don’t view that feeling of weak helplessness as a “creature” either. Rather I see it as my inner little girl. I don’t shy away from mine, though. We’re friends. I check in on her often. I suppose now that I’m old, I think of her much like I do my granddaughters. She’s like the inner vulnerable me that the outer me protects.

            I definitely felt rejection, ridicule, toxic shame, isolation and “alone in a complete sense, haunted by a sense of weakness, failure, and emptiness.” But I never lost awareness of who I was. I think it was at this point that our paths diverged for several reasons.

            My father, while also a narc, taught me at a very young age to think and reason logically and to never just accept what anyone tells me until I have subjected it to reasoning and compared it to what I already had determined to be true. I think learning this from him has had more impact on who I have become than anything else I have learned in my life.

            Another advantage I had was while I was isolated on a farm with just my parents, we had a kennel of from 20-60 German Shepherd Dogs. I spent a huge percentage of my time with those dogs. THEY loved me. THEY respected me, enjoyed my company and valued me. As I grew older and they all came to obey me, that was proof to me that I wasn’t that weak, spineless nothing I had feared I was. Male GS Dogs don’t obey weak, spineless nothings.

            Also I have always had the ability to go alone into nature and draw energy from around me. The wind especially gives me a feeling of strength and power. When I was small I came to think of this comforting energy as God and still consider it so. I think it is an example of the verse, “Be still and know that I am God.” Feeling this energy has always been a tremendous comfort and strength to me.

            “Worm-like helplessness.” I too often felt that as a child. My mother was fond of an old saying, “Even the worm will turn.” When her criticisms made me feel like a helpless worm, I began saying this over and over in my mind. I would stand or sit while she berated me and chant this like a mantra in my mind.

            “Accomplishments do not reduce the shame.” I confess I don’t understand that one. I think it’s because of Daddy’s teaching. I have always wrapped myself in my accomplishments and used them like armor and sword to defend myself. How could I be best in my class, win awards every year and be worthless? That made no sense. Teachers didn’t think I was worthless.

            I could always pick up on others emotions and i knew I was much respected away from home. Why would people respect me if I was worthless? It seemed more logical that Mama and other negative family was either stupid or lying. Then as I got older, I could pick up on their bluster and fear. Why would they give off fear and uncertainty if the insults they said to me were true?

            When I suffer criticism, it hurts me in a visceral way, too – but only momentarily. Then I analyze the criticism and determine if it was justified or what was it’s cause. If I need to adjust my behavior, I do. If I feel I don’t, then I don’t.

            I hate confrontation and having to say no and avoid them as much as possible, too. But when I can’t avoid them, I wrap up in my armor and just do it. Usually it ends up much easier than I expected.
            “I cannot bear for somebody to be upset with me and the tension of conflict makes me physically ill.” Me, too. That’s when I meditate to calm myself and say prayers for strength. I retreat to my home, my oasis of peace and tranquility, and reconnect with nature.

            Don’t know if any of this I said is helpful in any way, but that’s how I deal with my inner girl. I cherish and protect her with logic and reason.

          15. MB says:

            Windstorm, your story has some similarities and we have many things in common. Neither of my parents were narcissists, though. My mother was a baby herself when she had me and my sisters. She DID have a victim narc father and way too much on her plate for any person, much less a 19 year old girl.

            I thought more, dug deeper, and decided to come back because I don’t think I explained it very well. I explained more the WHY it happened, but not as much about the effect it has on my life. It may be my inner little girl, but I don’t think so. If that were the case, I would have compassion and love. I do not. I HATE her/that. I never want to be that ever again. I don’t want to be reminded that something so disgusting resides within me, much less embrace it. She is ugly, stupid, and useless and doesn’t deserve to breathe the same air as others.

            When these shaming experiences happen, the helpless, disgusting feeling comes back full force and I would disappear into the ground if I could in most instances.

            Last night, I did think back to a few shaming experiences. (although I would rather stab my eyes out with hot needles). In only two cases that I can remember as an adult, I did lash out with anger that was inconsistent with the circumstances. (At work both times!) The receiver of the anger as well as myself were surprised as it was completely atypical of my behavior. Like it wasn’t even me. I remember seeing blurry and words flew out of my mouth that I couldn’t believe or seem to stop. Afterwards, the embarrassment and shame at the way I behaved was monumental. What I would give, even today to erase those two times.

            I remember this was a common occurrence when I was a young child, but only at home. I was perfect at school. I remember the exact moment I decided I needed to control my temper so that I wouldn’t have that guilt afterwards. I hurt my baby sister in a fit of rage when I shoved her and she fell. Not badly, but I decided I never wanted to feel that bad again. I was 7. I haven’t struck another person since. I didn’t even spank my children.

            I was always successful in school. I have a successful career and have been a good wife and mother. I receive compliments and love daily. I am very much appreciated by all around me and told so often. I have no known enemies. But what you must realize is all of this is DESPITE her, not BECAUSE of her. If I was her, none of this would be possible. She’s not capable of driving the bus and nobody would like her anyway.

            HG doesn’t want to be consigned to oblivion. It is his fear.

            I wish I would be. That would be the ultimate freedom.

          16. windstorm says:

            I have a hard time believing there could be this “ugly, stupid and useless” thing inside your mind. Is this not just the lies you were fed by people around you? Have you not just internalized the fear that your inner self is so horrible? Convinced yourself without real evidence that this is true?

            Where is the evidence? Losing control of your temper and raging twice as an adult and deliberately hurting a younger sister when you were 7 is nothing. We’ve all of us done similar or worse. We all have to forgive ourselves as much as we forgive others. None of us are perfect. We all have faults and darknesses inside ourselves.

            Dear MB, you are just human – and a mighty damn good one!
            “If I was her, none of this would be possible. She’s not capable of driving the bus and nobody would like her anyway.”
            Maybe so, but you are NOT her. She isnt real. She’s a horrible lie that you’ve been taught to believe.

            As soon as I get home, I’m lighting a novena (9 day) candle and saying 9 days of prayers for you and everyone else who’s convinced they have this darkness in their soul and sending you positive energy for the next 9 days. It may not help, but surely it won’t hurt.❤️

          17. MB says:

            Windstorm, thank you for the kind words and for the prayers. Please don’t go to any special trouble for me.

            Nobody has ever told me lies to make me believe I’m worthless. In fact, quite the opposite. Ive never been abused in any way that I know of. I know logically that I am a good person. I spread love and light wherever I go. It is easy to give away, but turning it inward has escaped me.

            I don’t hate that part of myself because I believe it to be capable of evil or bad things. It’s just a part that will never be good enough and is not worthy. I believe it to be the source of all of my negative self talk and self loathing. I drown it out as best I can and drive forward. Thank God for medication.

          18. windstorm says:

            My internet is out on my phone this weekend and I’d typed this out on my barely operational iPad only to have it disappear right at the end. So you may get it twice. I fear the first version was better than this one.

            First off: you are definitely worth any amount of trouble. Your welfare is important to me. My concern is that my certainty that you are deceiving yourself will annoy you. I really don’t want to do that.

            “I don’t hate that part of myself because I believe it to be capable of evil or bad things. It’s just a part that will never be good enough and is not worthy.”

            There is NO PART of you that is not good enough or not worthy! I was talking to NarcAngel earlier about my MIL. She taught me that we all have to forgive ourselves as much as we forgive other people and that we must love ourselves – warts, darkness, ugliness and all – before we can truly love others. I used to think that this was stupid, but it is really true.

            I’m sure there are many people who love you and have forgiven you for all your faults. You need to join them. Face this darkness you feel in yourself and FORGIVE YOURSELF for it. Forgive yourself for having it. Forgive yourself for believing it and allowing this belief to have power over you. Like everything we fear, it only has power because our fear gives it power. Once you forgive yourself then you can begin to learn to love yourself – your whole self – the way the rest of us love you.

          19. MB says:

            Windstorm, thank you for taking your time and energy to compose a reply to me not once, but twice. The fact that you are staying with me and supporting me through my journey is a testament to your kindness and caring for humankind. I treasure tour friendship and your supportive words. Never could I be annoyed with you.

            You are certainly correct. There is nothing to fear but fear itself. I hope I will find the courage and strength to forgive myself. Maybe that is the root of my feeling of being held back and “in a cage”. As the late Glenn Frey sang: “So often we live our lives in chains, and we never even know we have the key.”

            I wish I could come spend some time in your energy at the Kentucky cabin. I know I could find much healing and peace there. However, as sensitive as you are to the emotions of others, it would be unhealthy for you and I wouldn’t want that.

          20. windstorm says:

            You are dear to me, MB. Often in my thoughts and prayers. That won’t stop.
            Glad to know I’m not irritating you – yet. Lol!

            Ha, ha! Yes, my cabin is my refuge because I don’t really allow any visitors, but it’d be really nice to meet for coffee or breakfast at Cracker Barrel (you all probably have those in NC too)!

          21. MB says:

            WS, thank you so much for your kindness. I do like Cracker Barrel on occasion. The hash brown casserole, fried okra, and blueberry pancakes are my favorite menu items. It’s always a good place to stop for a rest break when traveling too. Clean bathrooms and neat stuff to look at while you stretch your legs.

          22. WiserNow says:

            Hello MB,

            I hope you don’t mind me responding to your comments. Thank you for your heartfelt and brave honesty in describing your innermost thoughts. You explained it all very well and I for one understood everything you said. I’m truly sorry that you feel that way about your “inner self” or whatever it is that you call “her”.

            While I don’t have any specific answers or assistance for you, I’d just like to say you are a lovely and valuable person. You always have friendly and understanding comments that are enjoyable, personable and often funny to read.

            While I can relate and I believe you about the feelings of inner shame and self-loathing, there is no reason at all that you should have to carry this inner burden. You are a good person and you are not responsible for the circumstances you were born into. You coped as well as any child could and you did what anyone would have done given both your own internal and external environment.

            There are many people (myself included) who definitely wouldn’t like to see you “consigned to oblivion”. Not in the slightest. You are a valuable person here and it’s always welcome to see your comments ❤

          23. MB says:

            WiserNow, I appreciate everything that you said about me. That was so sweet! I am glad that you see ME. What I show to the world is the “real” me. I treasure your compliments and heartfelt sentiments. I’m glad you enjoy reading my posts. I gave up FB in February and have used this blog as my social outlet so probably post way too much! I truly enjoy the education and interaction that is made available in this safe space. I came here for information about the narcissistic perspective. I stay here for the company.

          24. Narc noob says:

            MB. I enjoyed reading that, thank you for your openness. I actually think the healing has already began. Self-awareness is the first key and you did that nicely!

      3. Kelly says:


        This is so enlightening! The little girl inside you!! I’ve forgotten, I had a little child in me too. I found her just not so many years ago. When I would get panicked, depressed, upset inside and not know why. It was like I had a child inside crying, upset, and I had to calm her down, and figure out what caused it. I’d take apart the feeling, bit by bit, and find the root of the problem. It was usually something so small that somebody said or did. I have trouble with decisions. Sometimes I’m like a drain that gets clogged, and I can’t move forward. Nowadays I can get so jarred internally when someone seems to be unhappy with me. I try to think, it probably has nothing to do with me, but people don’t realize how much they hurt me sometimes. We’re all so delicate. But I forgot about that child somehow. Thank you so much for reminding me. Whoever knew that was a trait that other people felt. I’m going to read up on this from HG’s material. My gosh, HG, I don’t know you, but you’re unfolding amazing revelations to me. What happens when an empath gets cured? Do we just become normal?

        1. windstorm says:

          Glad you found something useful in my post. I’m sort of the opinion that it’s just a human thing to have that little inner child voice. Just for some reason apparently narcs and codeps had their inner voices warped and started trying to hide from them. I’ve been wondering for hours now why that would be and what grace of God let me miss out on it and be able to identify positively with mine.

          Thinking back I had a favorite aunt who was codep and she tried to hide from her inner child too and viewed it very negatively. I remember thinking that she seemed to want to think that everyone had this ugly, pathetic darkness inside but we all tried to bluff and hide it. I could sense though, that she feared that wasnt true and that it was just her….

      4. Kelly says:

        Some things I’ve posted have felt therapeutic, but this feels raw and private. I don’t want to stay in this midsummer’s night dream, where I’ve felt like some sprite-fairy fluttering around my narc. I feel free of him now. But now I’m finding there’s more to it all – there’s me that needs fixing too.

      5. Kelly says:

        My narc wasn’t a complete waste. I needed to find this out about myself. This has been very emotional & mind blowing, but I’m feeling good about it.

      6. Lori says:

        I think they can be very similar. I’m one of them. I was formally diagnosed Codepebdent. I have many characteristics of the Super Empath. I am not at all a typical doormat Codepebdent. I can be at times depending on who I am dealing with but most of the time I’m not. I learned I could control others by their need of me.

        That voice you hear perhaps is the voice of a critical parent who may or may not have intended to be but that is how you processed it and now its there. It’s just with a narc that voice of the critical parent is so hurtful they can’t bear it

      7. Lori says:

        If any of y’all have the opportunity seek therapy, a therapist and or psychiatrist that specializes in personality disorder will get to the bottom of all of this.

        It’s very hard to diagnose yourself especially off the Internet or a support page. I will say someone years ago on a support page saw some codependency traits in my posts and suggested I look into it and I thought they were bat shit crazy. I was not Codepebdent nope. Didn’t even mention it to therapist and guess what diagnosis I got ? Yep you guessed it. I see many things on this page from certain individuals that point to Codependency but I’m not gonna tell them that because I don’t know enough about fhem to say that and most will deny it anyway. The point is if victims can at all get the help of a professional it’s worth it

      8. Lori says:

        Oh and btw for those of you asking yourself am I the Narc ? Because you find yourself behaving more like a narcissist, welll it’s likely because when you have been around the disordered for any length of time you will begin to pick up some their traits. The old saying lie down with dogs and your get up fleas They have a way of projecting their inner woundedness on to you. It takes awhile for the fleas to go away

      9. Kelly says:

        I had a terrible memory very young of my mother running the vacuum overtop of me and laughing and I knew it wasn’t a dream. And crying at 4 years old, not knowing why, just wanting her to hold me, but she just yelled at me to stop. I had 2 frightening recurring dreams back then, I would hide in both of them. I think I’m the grownup that’s going to help me as a child or maybe allow her to rest in peace and release her ghost from haunting me. I’m not mad at my mother, she’s a victim of narcissism herself, like a rabid dog.

      10. Kelly says:

        I’ve suppressed myself all these years. While narc’s build facades to hide their monsters, I’ve worn a shell to protect the me inside from their insults.

        There’s more to narcissism than meets the eye. It’s evil and they enjoy it. If they can’t repent their demons and they can’t allow love in, then it’s not human. If it quacks, it’s a duck, wolfs in sheeps clothing, they’re demons pretending to be human.

        They are hollow, no conscience, no memory, don’t love us, don’t smile, don’t cry. They’re supernatural in many ways. What person studies others to learn and practice other people’s behaviors in order to fake it. That’s beyond what humans do. I’ve seen things, I’ve felt evil things from them. They move fast as lightening with exact precision. Evil is as evil does, no matter what the excuse.

      11. Kelly says:

        And Fuel? doesn’t really make sense. It’s like The Emperor’s New Clothes. It’s like justifying a serial killer’s need to get a high from the power he feels from murdering his victims. I’m not going to romanticize narcissism, no matter how fond I am of any of them, vampires were never sexy to me.

        Was it HG who said, “The devil doesn’t come dressed in a red cape and horns, he comes as everything you ever wanted”.

        Well I will stop harping now. I’ve got a big narc mess to clean up from and repairs to do.

      12. Kelly says:

        By the way HG, Thank you.
        Somehow you are God-sent, and have made an incredible difference in my life.

        Please keep doing what you’re doing (the blog).

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you and I shall.

      13. Kelly says:

        Note: My comments above about Narcissists are things HG has already told us in his writings.

        We really need to share this site with the world. Everyone needs to know narcissism when they see it.

        1. HG Tudor says:


      14. NarcAngel says:

        MB and Windstorm

        I enjoyed learning more about you both from your exchange. Fascinating. So many instances where people experience same or similar and yet take a different route. I read Chained last weekend also and as usual it was a great read. HG manages to break things down and get to the meat of it where other sources are too clinical and without examples. They usually leave me with more questions than I started with. I read it because of Lori’s assertion that many may be Co-d but not identifying with it because they perceived it to be weak, and shes right that it doesnt mean that person is the stereotypical dish rag. I did determine for once and for all that I am not Co-d by reading it (and combing it with other things I have read), but it has certainly helped me to identify some people in my life that I was a bit confused about and I think its a great read for everyone. I dont identify with a creature, I have a little girl too. She has no shame. Others tried to make her carry it but she would not. She does not defer to others now because she was made to and always knew it was oppression without even knowing the word. She had no need for awards or accomplishments because she knew her worth from the way people responded to her and sought her out. And she felt it. Always. There is a down side though. In order to be able to keep that focus, I feel she had to shed a lot of the feelings that allow vulnerability in a good way. She is not open about her life (except here), she operates from the standpoint that you trust no one until they have earned it. She is too direct sometimes because she listened to endless reams of words that in the end meant and said nothing (from the narc) and prefers to cut to the chase (although that is not always received well so she has become wordier as evidenced here). She pushes to be seen and heard because she was oppressed and she knows there are many other little girls like her. It may not be her business, but she wants them to be seen and heard also. To tell them that what they heard were lies. Vicious lies by those who could not face their own weaknesses and could not bear for others to leave them behind, so sought to keep those others down. At least given the chance to be seen and heard until they can decide for themselves what is best for them. I believe that is why she is still here.

        1. windstorm says:

          Thank you so much for your comment. I’ve said it before, but I’ll keep saying it, your comments mean so much to me. They are always a reassurance that I’m not just totally alone out there in left field. Like you say while we are all different, we all have so many similarities that we may never realize if we don’t talk and share like we do here on the blog.

          “She pushes to be seen and heard because she was oppressed and she knows there are many other little girls like her. It may not be her business, but she wants them to be seen and heard also. To tell them that what they heard were lies. Vicious lies by those who could not face their own weaknesses and could not bear for others to leave them behind, so sought to keep those others down.”

          Yes, yes! A hundred times yes!! This is how I feel also. I see so many women and girls that I can sense that they were held down by lies from the people who should have supported them the most. And they have now internalized these lies and are hurting themselves by continuing to believe them. I’m a lot quieter and more hands-off than you probably are but I try to be a support and source of positivity to counter the negative self-talk I sense in them.

          Where I’m stuck right now is what is it that determines which path we take? Probably a senseless question because there are so many factors involved. I’ve thought a lot this weekend about my mother-in-law. She’s the one who taught me that I have to forgive myself every bit as much as I forgive others. She beat into my head that lesson about having to love myself and take care of myself before I’d be able to be strong enough to take care of those around me – you know, like the oxygen mask on the plane thing.

          I often think fondly about my colorful FIL and how he taught me all about the different types of abuse, how to recognize them and let them wash off me “like water off a duck’s back.” But my MIL was just as important in a different way. She often said, “You have to love yourself before you can really love others.” I can remember thinking that was stupid when I was 16. But once I learned how to actually forgive and love myself, it was amazing the difference in how I saw and cared about everyone else. I hope that’s something all of us here on the blog will learn to do – to forgive and truly love ourselves.

        2. MB says:

          Thank you for sharing NA. There is always room for the wordier NA as long as we still get those zingers we all know and love! Your description of your little girl only makes me aspire to be like you when I grow up even more.

          Although a people pleaser to avoid conflict as much as possible, I am not a dish rag and I’m glad that HGs writing about the Co-d was clear on that. I can be quite feisty when I’ve had enough. I am also headstrong when I put my mind to something.

          My inner “whatever it is” torments me daily. Without a point of reference, those that don’t have it are unable to identify and are fortunate not to be able to do so.

          It is a pervading sense of inadequacy, weakness, helplessness, and shame. It is stupid, ugly, fat, lazy, disgusting, incapable, and guilt ridden. It is everything I do not want to be. It is at the core of my being, but pushing it down to the depths where it cannot be seen or felt is of utmost importance if I am to be happy. It is not evil or cruel except to me. It doesn’t hurt anyone but me. It is my enemy. When it is exposed by criticism, when that part of me has been detected and seen by someone, I am reduced to only that. The me that I am falls away and I feel small, insignificant, and ashamed. It is at these times I want to disappear.

          There is a real me that I want the world to see. I am a good and helpful person. I take great joy in being kind and generous. I leave people better than I found them when I can. No matter how much I accomplish, how many compliments and love that I receive, there is a part of me that refuses to believe it’s worthy and will not accept that it is the truth.

          In a way, taking this path of development rather than that of the narcissist is particularly cruel. I have the ability to feel the pain of not only myself but others. The shelter of the construct afforded by the narcissist is tempting indeed. Unfortunately, the protection won’t last and he will mop up the floor with me and block all the exits. I’ve been very lucky to have escaped that fate that so many others have been subjected to.

          There is a silver lining to all of this though. It has increased sales of ‘Chained’. Ha ha

      15. Lori says:

        They are similar I have been diagnosed Codep and I have many narcissistic super empath traits

        I have an extrovert strong personality but I am Codepebdent

  10. BrokenRainbow says:


    Thank you. I am determined he will not win. He won the battle as he knocked me down further than I have ever been. However he will NOT win the war.

    Sorry if this comment is out of order. The reply button disappeared.

  11. BrokenRainbow says:

    I am so confused. I thought I was codependent but K suggested I read this.

    “The false strength which the narcissist exhibits at the outset of the seduction, the confidence, the apparent satisfaction with his self, that he appears comfortable in his own skin, at ease with others, capable of lighting up a room and so forth is a huge attraction to the Super Empath because that person actually sees something of themselves in the narcissist when the narcissist is seducing.”

    This is me. This is what I found so damn attractive with my ex. When I first met him, his “aura” was intoxicating to me. I found myself incredibly attracted to him physically and mentally. I cannot say it better than HG here. I will never forget the first time I looked into his eyes as I almost drowned in them!

    I also escaped him many times yet always returned. In fact, I escaped him more than he discarded me or disengaged from me. (I am still learning the difference between the two.)

    Now I have no idea what I am! (Smile)

    1. Supernova DE says:

      I relate so much to what you said! I, also, cannot decide whether I am co-dependent or a super. And the paragraph you quote about the false strength being potent during the seduction resonates so deeply with me as well!
      I have asked my therapist if she thinks I am co-dependent. She says I am NOT in my current relationships (she knows nothing of my affair with narc), she is referring to my husband and my mother. Although she tells me you can be co-dependent in some relationships and not in others…I don’t know what HG’s opinion on that would be, I am skeptical.
      Have you read Chained? I have not, but I think I will this weekend to see if it sheds any light on this for me.

      1. BrokenRainbow says:

        Supernova DE
        Maybe I am codependent with him. I don’t know. I was not really like this in any other relationship. No, I have not read Chained yet. I am thinking I need to read it.

      2. Lori says:

        That is correct. I am not Codepebdent in all relationships but I’m still Codepebdent. Why haven’t you told her of your affair? I don’t think you can get accurate diagnosis untill yoh give all of the information. An affair is a significant piece of information an affair spanning years with a narcissist more than significant. I think you should tell her and maybe get to the bottom of why you didn’t tell her. There’s something to that

      3. Supernova DE says:

        I know exactly why I haven’t told her. I articulated this in a thread a week or two ago. I have privacy concerns. I have wanted to tell her many times when I’ve been upset regarding the MMRN. I was a year into therapy when things with him began.
        HG knows about all my relationships through consult and says I’m a standard empath. My read on myself is that I am standard leaning toward codependent or codependent but partially recovered through therapy. I don’t have an issue with a diagnosis of codependency. To me it has no particular stigma. It just is.
        I could ramble on a lot more on this regarding my introspection. But this is the gist.

        I do want to say that I have greatly appreciated and learned from some of your posts around here lately, so I thank you for that Lori.

    2. K says:

      It is all good! You might not be a CoD and it is very normal to be confused. When I first came here, I thought I was:

      1. a Super
      2. then a narcissist
      3. a Standard empath
      4. possibly a CoD (I read Chained and that cleared that up right away) 5. back to Super
      6. a Contagion
      7. a moment of panic when I read about psychopaths
      8. I am just going to consult with HG

      Read all the empath articles so you can learn your cadre and school. It may take some time to sort it all out though.

      1. MB says:

        K, you’ve never had a consultation?

        1. K says:

          Of course, I have. An email and a Skype and they were great. I have some Lego sets I have to sell on ebay and then I can arrange another consult.

          1. MB says:

            K, Lego sets in exchange for some HG time certainly is a good trade! I guess the way I read something you said make me think you haven’t consulted and I was shocked. Going back under my rock now…

          2. K says:

            I have been here for one-and-a-half years so it make sense that you would think that I never had a consult. I consulted with HG before I even began posting comments. Originally, I had no intention of ever becoming part of the blog but, after I read about the GP, I realized I was a junkie and needed to learn more.

          3. MB says:

            K, I’m consulted first also. A couple of times actually before I started posting. GP means guinea pig to me?

          4. K says:

            Or Gorgeous Person, MB. I had no idea that I was a Golden Period junkie. Withdrawals sucked!

          5. MB says:

            K, I think we all are GP junkies or we wouldn’t be in this predicament! That’s how they get us hooked and keep us hooked. I wish it WAS guinea pig! Wheek! Wheek!

      2. WhoCares says:

        Oh, K!

        I was going down your list…

        ” 7. a moment of panic when I read about psychopaths”

        Hehe – that made me outright laugh. My personal list of guesses is about as long as yours. I think I’ll read Chained too so maybe I can scratch that one off the list.

        HG, do any other of your books specifically cater to the other schools/cadres of Empath?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No but they will do in due course.

          1. WhoCares says:

            I look forward to them.

          2. K says:

            Ha ha ha…thanks for the laugh. My moment of panic occurred when I read this statement by Dr. George Simon.

            “They are the heartless predators that either lack the capacity to care about others or have the uncanny ability to mentally wall-off (i.e. “compartmentalize”) any care or concern they might have when they want to victimize.”

            However, after reading The Psychopath Inside by James H. Fallon and The Wisdom of Psychopaths by Kevin Dutton, I felt much better. Some people have psychopathy in their DNA and others don’t.

          3. WhoCares says:

            Hmmm, those sounds like some interesting reads, K – thanks for sharing.

      3. BrokenRainbow says:

        Thanks. I am finding this blog utterly fascinating yet difficult to read at times. I know in my heart that if I had not found this blog, I would have kept returning to him. Today my therapist questioned whether my ex is a Narcissist. I was quite surprised for her to say that when she knows he has NPD. I am finding unless you have survived a relationship with a narcissist people do not understand the hell one endures.
        I believe my healing started in two ways. I realized he is a Narcissist and he is incapable of returning my love. He is incapable of being anything other than an abuser. The second was I found HG and Narcsite. The information that HG provides is astounding. I found a place where I feel understood and validated.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Good, you are seizing the power.

      4. BrokenRainbow says:

        I like that. GP Junkie!!!!!

      5. BrokenRainbow says:

        This! I have no idea what I am. I suspected a narc at one point but that is impossible for me as I have a lot of empathy. I also have a lot of narcissistic traits due to having BPD. I actually could manipulate my ex in ways that frustrated him. I am not proud of it but it is part of who I am. I will learn in time with more reading where I belong. Oh wait. I already figured that out. I belong here!!!

        1. K says:

          Yes, you belong here with us and because you entertained the thought that you may be a narcissist, this demonstrates that you probably are not one, as they have no insight and their self-defence mechanism would reject it anyway.

          Most people have narcissistic traits and that is quite normal. Learn as much as you can and, remember, you have the ability to change or work with the traits that you don’t like.

          Yeah, I am a GP junkie but I am cool with it now.

      6. nunya biz says:

        “Today my therapist questioned whether my ex is a Narcissist. I was quite surprised for her to say that when she knows he has NPD. ”


        1. K says:

          nunya biz
          Thank you for sharing that and I am not surprised. It is very frustrating to read about the bloggers who have had poor experiences with their therapists and, if you tell them about narcsite, I bet they would probably get defensive.

      7. nunya biz says:

        K, that was for Broken Rainbow, was quoting her!
        Yes, sounded frustrating to me. I’m a fan of therapists, but have had some terrible ones. Like you can already be having enough frustration and problems and then a bad therapist just jumps on the pile.
        Hopefully BR has good experiences with hers as well, I never expect any therapist to be perfect. Luckily a new counselor I”ve started with seems very grounded, practical and experienced. I need that right now.

      8. Bibi says:

        I plan to read Chained for my next book. I am pretty sure I am contagion, as I find myself having to withdraw due to absorbing others’ stuff. Or I am just really self-absorbed. Or both.

        ““The false strength which the narcissist exhibits at the outset of the seduction, the confidence, the apparent satisfaction with his self, that he appears comfortable in his own skin, at ease with others, capable of lighting up a room and so forth is a huge attraction to the Super Empath because that person actually sees something of themselves in the narcissist when the narcissist is seducing.”

        There is some truth to my finding this attractive, but I also tend to be repelled by it b/c I feel like that person already has their ego in check and would not require anything from me.

        1. windstorm says:

          I’m a contagion and one reason I like going out in public with a narc is they tend to draw all the emotions and attention to themselves and so obviously enjoy dealing with them. It gives me a break from being bombarded by other people’s emotions and lets me focus on the narc’s enjoyment of the attention of others.

          Also since they don’t feel as many different emotions as other people, I find narcs more predictable emotionally. I like this because unpredictable emotional outbursts are very painful for me.

        2. windstorm says:

          “There is some truth to my finding this attractive, but I also tend to be repelled by it b/c I feel like that person already has their ego in check and would not require anything from me.”

          I find this statement intriguing. My very favorite type of people are the ones who “would not require anything from me.” They’re the ones I can just relax and be myself around and not worry about having to “do” anything.

      9. Bibi says:

        Aw, Windstorm,

        Thank you for your comment! What you just said about being a contagion resonates with me as well.

        Just to follow up on my comment–I don’t like the thought of ever being someone’s ‘groupie’. I have never, ever been able to do it. So there is always that risk with that outward popular guy that perhaps he just wants me to follow him around, which I won’t do.

        BUT, I do admire those traits when handled authentically. I personally require someone who has that strong sense of logic and reason yet is understanding towards my high sensitivity.

        1. windstorm says:

          None of my narcs have the type of popularity that would attract “groupies.” I’m just talking about at family gatherings and small type public events. I sort of use my exhusband and sons as a sort of shield or barrier to catch and deal with the emotions of others present.

    3. K says:

      You are welcome BrokenRainbow
      It is no surprise that your therapist questioned whether your ex was a narcissist and I find it very frustrating when people in that line of work just don’t get it.

      You are right; you know exactly what he is and you are in the best place to learn all about NPD and get the support and understanding that you need. Everyday that I am here, I get validated, as well, and that is a necessary component of healing so you can move forward.

      Good luck with the therapist; I hope s(he) is a helpful part of your journey and not detrimental.

      1. nunya biz says:

        OH, I see! You got me ; )
        Damn, I have trouble sometimes keeping up with being clear in blog comments.

        1. K says:

          nunya biz
          No worries! I get confused sometimes, too, especially on the long threads

      2. BrokenRainbow says:

        nunya biz

        I know!!!!!

      3. BrokenRainbow says:

        nunya biz and K

        I actually am in therapy for something else. There have been a couple of other occasions where I was dissatisfied with her opinion/attitude regarding narcissistic abuse. Therefore I have decided to find a therapist that specializes in abuse but primarily narcissistic abuse.

      4. nunya biz says:

        Broken Rainbow, I hope you keep us updated. I am very interested in anything effective and helpful.
        My current therapy is fairly immersive, combo for addiction issues, family issues, trauma, etc… and pursuing adjunctive things as well (interested in TRE and EMDR) in addition to some personal development stuff regarding skills/career pursuits.
        I did not see this post of yours until today.
        Btw, I have found some of the (probably basic) family dynamic stuff from my therapy interesting. Whether a narc is involved or no, in dysfunction I have been looking into the addiction cycle and family dynamic:
        1. addict
        2. codependent/enabler
        3. hero/golden
        4. mascot
        5. lost child
        6. scapegoat

        I find these roles are interchangeable to some extent. In my origin family I was primarily 5/6 and it had not occurred to me that it was *partially* related to my being the oldest and targeted as the source of discontent (undeservedly, of course) following my parent’s divorce. One of the hallmarks of number 5 is a tendency to escape reality via fantasizing, etc.. I think it is a natural leaning of mine anyway with a strong early childhood imagination- and in the past I’d considered myself somnambulant, as the term is used to describe being easily hypnotized. I’ve such increased awareness currently I’d not exactly consider it the case anymore since I’ve got more control of my consciousness level, but there was a time it was confusing for me.
        Btw, I identified my father as number 1, but not in the classic sense, I would consider him a “gambler” with some delusions. My mother as number 2 was not enabler so much as bitter codependent trying to compensate (not well).

        Not sure this has any relevance to anyone, but for myself it is an interesting addition for understanding subconscious behaviors in forming relationship attachments, I’d love to hear anything insightful even if contradictory, my understanding right now is pretty rudimentary.

      5. brokenrainbow says:

        nunya biz
        Yes, I will keep you updated. Thank you for your kindness. Sorry for the late response. I tend to avoid talking to people when I am in Emotion mind. I get triggered easily in this state therefore it is prudent to isolate from the blog and other social media until I can regulate differently.

      6. nunya biz says:

        Of course!
        I had more to say at one point, but I avoid talking when I have a migraine and I’m in the midst of one of those foggy, thought slowing curses now
        : P. I may come back to this thread in a bit when my head clears up.
        I hope the new therapist works out and I know what you mean about feeling the need to isolate.

    4. Lori says:

      If you seek counseling and your are Codepebdent it will come out and be diagnosed soon enough as far as Super Empath well that’s not a term mental health professional would use that’s mere a term a narc uses to classify what kind of victim he has. I have many characteristics of both but I was still professionally diagnosed as Codepebdent

      1. nunya biz says:

        This is an interesting way to put it, thanks.
        I had a therapist once (for one day, I left kinda traumatized since I was in the middle of massive ET) who I think did not get the N/CoD relationship and kept insisting that I needed to send my mother a “thank you” card. I was furious.

      2. Supernova DE says:

        This is interesting. My therapist has told me I’m not codependent, but I identify with many of the traits.
        Do you agree with your therapist?

      3. Lori says:

        Supernova de

        I do agree with diagnosis but let me say the diagnosis is only as good as the information you give them. Some people with hold pertinent information that may lead to a different diagnosis

  12. Supernova DE says:

    HG if a mid ranger disengages from a super empath out of self defense, would they be less likely to go back and re-instate the formal relationship out of the same sense of self defense? Or does the mental deletion of us during disengagement reset things, and they forget the previous perceived threat?
    Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The wounding and lack of control which triggered the disengagement fades over time so there would be a ‘reset’ situation.

      1. Anm says:

        In my experience, there will be a reset… but… the midranger will most likely delight in hovering when the Super Empath goes through a challenging time, such as, death of a loved one, divorce, career change, etc. The cowardly midranger will use this time to either kick her when she is down, or offer to be her hero/friend. Depending on the needs of the midranger at that time. The midranger views the Super Empaths bumps along the road, whether big or small, as Karma for doing the midranger wrong.

      2. nunya biz says:

        Thank you for this comment, Anm, this explained something for me.

  13. Renarde says:

    WordPress is STILL being a cockwomble! Just seen this one from you my lovely but there is no ‘reply direct to you function’ available.

    Ach no. I’ll be fine because of the ‘AntiBible’ that HG has written. All is good in NarcVille. I actually had an amusing moment this week where I pondered the concept that a load of Ns – all Greaters (obviously) – sit around discussing HG’s own prolific, literary output.

    It’s like the Synod of Sutri.

    ‘Yes, Brother’, they would argue. ‘Fuel’ obviously HAS to be in. But what’s our position on ‘Sex and the Narcissist’? There would be much shaking of heads and mutterings that it was just ‘far too dangerous’. and SATN will be ‘shelved’. Possibly to be put into terracotta jars and buried somewhere in the Home Counties until more reasonable and calmer minds could digest it’s mighty knowledge. And EVEN then…

    A junior member pipes up, ‘But Confessions and Further Confessions?’.. There will be much drawing in of breath. A terrible argument would rage. It will not at that point be agreed upon. There will be further declarations on this down the years but it will be spoken about as a ‘Ecumenical Matter’ and left. For now…

    Another shouts out, ‘Exorcism?’.

    The Chair of the Council (silent until now) adjusts his mitre (it had been at a pretty jaunty angle before. A hard night of partying will do that to you) and wields his gavel. Hard. The Synod jumps in response. They do get quite jumpy.

    ‘NO!’. That is a BLASPHEMOUS work and will be outwardly prohibited on account of it’s utterly, heretical nature. Exorcisms will be performed but under strict guidance from the AntiChurch. Or me. Anti-Papal Infallibility’

    The Synod promptly comes in response.

    Order is restored. Everyone smiles. No animals are harmed.

    But they had be infiltrated, you see. An Empath (sneaking, diverting, low life filth. Obviously.) had been present. The usual point arrives where cigars, Cognac and cocaine were being liberally passed around. One naive member mistakes the cocaine for snuff and promptly passes out.

    True; her beard was not great. Somehow, it had passed. She scurried out, making an excuse that ‘I’m a wolf and I need to hunt! Sorry chaps. Needs must as the Devil drives his handcart’. They all wish her/him a fond (ish) farewell before going on to discuss ‘The Sociopath Next Door’ and laughing like hyenas at it’s contents.

    The Empath rushes towards the secret place. Her sisters are on tenterhooks. They had been discussing kittens, knitting and Love Island. At one point, a Sister, who was obsess with the recent Royal Wedding had tried to talk about Megan. Everyone threw their popcorn at her because N, right? Another had tried previously to steer the conversation onto ‘Won’t someone think of the children?’. They had all groaned in response. A few had leapt for the bathroom to shed their tears in private. They could’t cry in front of others. Even their own kind. How bizarre?

    ‘Listen Sisters’, the sneaky spy had said. ‘Wait until you listen to THIS’…

    1. Twisted Heart says:

      This is amazing!!
      It really made me smile today. Thank You!

      1. Renarde says:

        My pleasure! I had utterly forgotten I’d written this!

  14. Presque Vu says:

    HG can you identify psychopaths/sociopaths/sadists?
    Can they also be Narcs?
    Or more Psychopath etc

    Is a psychopath/sociopath/sadist – a Greater Narc?

    When I consult with you, and tell you everything about him, I’d love to know because I wonder- seriously wonder HG about how dangerous he is. I know I’m playing with fire even thinking about him – why the hell would I miss someone like that – I know what you would say!

    I can’t explain why, I honestly don’t know – that’s where you will help me to understand right?

  15. Jess says:

    This is an amazing article and I’ll never forget the first time I heard it. The spoken of “high integrity” made me able to escape while in stranger mode or “the void.” So…the narcissist didnt ever get to unleash a brutal devaluation or discard me.

    I wouldn’t give up my narcissistic traits for anything. I’d hate m to think where I would be without them. There is much to be learned.

    1. amanda SNapchat says:

      how did u escape? thanks 4 sharing

  16. Roxanne says:

    See how sparkling, vivid and funny this topic is now, after we, SE, have engaged?! hi hi hi, that’s how it happens 🙂

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Ah, stop blowing your own trumpet!

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Awww… he acknowledged we’re angels. I believe the trumpet reference was intentional, although if it had of been in response to my post he might have used horns.

        1. Twilight says:


          If you SEs are angels (some with horns holding the halo ;)) I am left wondering what he thinks of the Contagion, wait he he HG come on over here I have some feelings I would like to infect you with.

          1. K says:

            Ha ha ha…you couldn’t infect HG with the “feels” if your life depended on it! He is has a natural immunity.

          2. Twilight says:


            Ha ha I was not specific in what feelings I would make him feel, if my life depended on it I would definitely be screwed if warm fuzzies is what was needed.

          3. K says:

            Ha ha ha…I figured you were being mischievous and wanted to infect him with the “warm and fuzzies”, lord knows he has enough hate, fury, envy, jealousy and contempt.

            Circle,circle, dot,dot
            Now you’ve got a narc shot

            Circle circle, square square
            The warm and fuzzies are not here.

          4. MB says:

            K, that’s right! We’re the same age. I forgot about the “circle, circle, dot, dot, now you’ve got your cooties shot”. Thanks for reminding me. Good times!

          5. HG Tudor says:

            “circle, circle, dot, dot, now you’ve got your cooties shot” – the mind boggles!

          6. K says:

            ha ha ha…some of us empaths have a puckish side! Remember, I have an 8-year old at home and it is my motherly duty to teach her these rhymes.

          7. MB says:

            You didn’t give each other cooties shots in grade school? Maybe it’s a US thing. K and I got ours. Hopefully, it provides life long immunity!

          8. K says:

            Maybe HG went to a posh school and the children never heard of cooties.

          9. MB says:

            K, I’m sure he did go to a posh school and probably skipped kindergarten and first grade because he was so smart. But EVERY school has a cootie kid! (I’m sorry for saying that, but children are mean.). For what it’s worth, I always befriended the cootie kids. I felt bad for them. Unfortunately, the cootie boys usually got the wrong idea! Ha ha

          10. windstorm says:

            No cooties, but had a girl come up to my desk yesterday saying her head really itches and she was covered in lice. Makes my head itch thinking about it. The joys of school!

          11. K says:

            Quick! Grab some white vinegar and a spray bottle! Kill them (the lice) all! My niece (narc sister’s child) was covered in lice for years and my daughter and I got them.

            Yup, started today and I can’t wait for the letter to come home regarding: scabies; a sexually transmitted parasite and you know there has got to be some narcissistic shenanigans behind that festiveness. Yuck!

          12. MB says:

            K and Windstorm, all of the above count as cooties.

          13. MB says:

            Windstorm, you made me scratch my head just then. Ughhh

          14. K says:

            My pleasure MB
            Apples, peaches, pears and plums
            Tell me when your number comes.
            (jump roping)

          15. MB says:

            K, I didn’t do that one. Miss Mary Mack Mack Mack of course. Mother May I, and Red Light, Green Light, and my fave…Duck, Duck, Goose! You’re it!!!!

          16. HG Tudor says:

            Right, Kindergarten is closed.

          17. K says:

            Ok fine, let’s play Doctor.

          18. MB says:

            “Play doctor” very good K!

          19. MB says:

            It was fun while it lasted. I’ve heard that everything you need to know, you learned in kindergarten. Playing nice with others is one of those skills.

          20. K says:

            Don’t forget Indians and Cowboys (before the social justice warriors came and ruined all the fun) MB!

            I used to shoot the Injun Joe* dead with my cap gun.

            *character in The Adventures of Tom Sawyer.

          21. MB says:

            Yes, K! Everybody gets butt hurt now. They can’t even sit Indian style like we did. Now it’s cross-cross apple sauce.

          22. K says:

            Yup, it is called Teacup parenting. Children are so fragile that they need safe spaces in school/college or meds. Universities are having trouble dealing with these young adults and their parents.

          23. MB says:

            It’s ridiculous! These teacup kids are coming into the workforce now and they are challenging indeed!

          24. Twilight says:


            Challenging is an understatement, I manage a restaurant hand washing is a required

          25. MB says:

            Twilight, may the force be with you.

          26. K says:

            They have been mollycoddled their whole lives and can’t handle the heat; it is pathetic.

          27. MB says:

            K, you make me look up almost as many words as HG does!

          28. K says:

            Ha ha ha…I have been a logophile since I was a child. I got these from HG.


          29. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha! I didn’t know “aulic.”

          30. K says:

            Yes, that was new one for me too! There is never a dull moment on narcsite. Lots of learning here.

          31. MB says:

            K, you are making me work way too hard this evening! But now I know. My name is MB and I’m a Sapiosexual! It reminds me of the joke where you put your hand on somebody’s head and say it’s a brain-sucker starving to death. That’s me…my sapiosexual needs are having to be met at narcsite as I am not fulfilled in other areas of my life. Explains a lot!

          32. K says:

            All of your sapiosexual needs will be satisfied on narcsite. HG is the smartest narcissist I “know”.

          33. MB says:

            K, he’s not just the smartest narcissist I know. He’s the smartest person I know! My father is very intelligent. (I take after him 😂) I also have a mentor from my early career that is smarter than my Daddy. HG trumps them both. It’s the truth!

          34. K says:

            You are right; he is the smartest person I “know” too. It is one of the many reasons I don’t want to leave narcsite.

          35. HG Tudor says:

            You are not allowed to leave K. You are my archivist.

          36. K says:

            Ha ha ha… archivist, I like that. That is one of my reasons for staying and all the cool, funny and smart empaths are here, too. There really isn’t a logical reason to leave narcsite when you think about it.

          37. MB says:

            Mr. Tudor,
            I would like to nominate K to be added to the HGU payroll, please.

          38. K says:

            Nice try, but the empath is supposed to provide the Prime Aims, however, since I have been here, I have swiped HG’s words (character traits) and people seem impressed by my vocabulary. Fuel.

            What’s good for the goose (narcissist) is good for the gander (empath); it is instinct.

          39. MB says:

            Me too K, I can’t imagine my life without you and HG in it.

          40. K says:

            I know. Life without you and HG, NA, WS, SX, SMH, DUTG, MLA, PH, Twilight, Lou, the Carolines, Bubbles and the Weasel and all the other bloggers would be colorless and cold.

          41. MB says:

            I didn’t mean to leave anybody out! Thank you for including them. And let’s not forget Quasi! Pale Horse brings the male perspective in here as a regular contributor to this estrogen-fest.

          42. K says:

            Ha ha ha…you really are an empath and I didn’t think you were leaving anyone out. I have been here for quite a while and “met” so many nice people that I wanted to name a few, of course, we can’t forget Quasi, WhoCares, 12345 and DebbieWolf.

          43. NarcAngel says:

            Haha. You cant leave. You know youre owned and its for life.

          44. K says:

            Ha ha ha…I will never forget the first time I read the article, Own; I thought: Oh, man! What have I gotten myself into.

          45. windstorm says:

            Yeah, but we own them, too. They just don’t realize it. Sort of like keeping pet snakes in a habitat.

          46. K says:

            They do like our fuel but I am tired of getting bitten by venomous narcs! No more snake habitats for me; I will settle for a pet (gray) rock from now on.

          47. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha! I think my narc snakes are less venomous than yours – at least less prone to biting.

            Oh! It just occurred to me, you know in this area we have churches that handle poisonous snakes to prove that God is with them! I sure never wanted to be lumped in that group! Maybe I should face reality, though. I’m just another snake handler. 😝

          48. K says:

            I have read about snake handling in the rural south. My narc/snakes kicked my ass and, yes, you most certainly handle “snakes”. There is a book titled: Snakes in Suits by Robert D. Hare and it is on my list of books to read. And I forgot an HG word: misandry/misandrist.

          49. windstorm says:

            “Misandry”. Somehow that doesn’t seem like a real problem here in the US, where women are often still treated like second class citizens. I’m sure I am biased, though. Perhaps men feel very differently.

          50. K says:

            It does depend on an individual’s POV and I think the misandry was occurring on narcsite.

            HG Tudor
            JANUARY 31, 2017 AT 20:14
            Such misandry and you lot take me to task about being a misogynist.

            HG Tudor
            JANUARY 31, 2017 AT 20:23
            It wasn’t aimed at you Flickatina. It was the terrible generalisation about men and short attention sp…..oh look a football match.


            Many of us have been here long enough to know that HG does not discriminate; he is an equal opportunity hater.

          51. windstorm says:

            Ah, but that was a witticism! I always love witticisms! Thank you for reminding me of it. I got to enjoy it a over again! 😄

          52. Renarde says:

            Apart from me of course!

          53. NarcAngel says:

            I was referring to all of us-not just S.Es.

          54. Twilight says:

            Narc Angel

            Sometimes I am bad when making a joke. I did understand you were speaking for all of us. I just pick the SE being that is this article and poking at HG with the term Contagion.

          55. NarcAngel says:

            I know. I get you lol. That was just in case others dont get us.

          56. Twilight says:

            Narc Angel

            Understand thank you.
            Lol I am glad someone besides the man of the house understands me.

          57. Renarde says:

            LMAO! 🤣🤣🤣

      2. Roxanne says:

        Mirror, mirror on the wall….

      3. Renarde says:

        I have other trumpets to blow. I’m on a promise for tomorrow 🤣🤣🤣

      4. Twilight says:

        Add some lavender and tea tree oil to that mixture

        I have not had an issue with lice using both of these oils, and they leave your hair smelling nice

  17. HG Tudors #1 fan says:

    I am a Super Empath, which is why the dumb lesser loser somatic disengaged with me like a sissy. I went supernova on him. I caused my disengagement because i couldn’t stop verbally abusing him and making verbal threats. I also told him everyone hates him including his mother.

  18. Bibi says:

    HG, I know you have written about your Mid Range mother, but I don’t recall which level of Mid Range she was.

    IQ is so boring. That only measures logic and functional capabilities but nothing as far as insight or creativity. As example, a doctor at my company died and so they erected a library in his honor. He was an Md/PhD but read Tom Clancy novels. The library is filled with Tom Clancy and John Grisham in his honor. Wonderful.

    Even Dr. Sam, who is Mr. 185 IQ or whatever, admits that is does not counter in creativity or talent. I was actually impressed by this admittance, even if he is a cerebral jerk sometimes.

    HG I know you know this and was just using it to illustrate a point but I’m just saying this for anyone reading. I’m sure many accountants have high IQs but try talking to them about film or books.

    Ugh! I think I’ll run the other direction, thank you.

    1. Renarde says:

      Totally get this. One GCN was extremely bad at discussing literature. Another tried to ‘blag’ that he knew vector calculus. (He was a Professor of Economics). That might sound as if he knew it but trust me. VC only appears in maths or physics degrees and his was PPE.

      I’m a bit disturbed that a library only contains Tom Clancy. Please say it ain’t so 🤣🤣🤣!

    2. Roxanne says:

      What’s wrong with Tom Clancy? My 2 narcs (husband Mid Ranger and Mr Dirty Pleasure Greater Dark Triad) both read eclectically almost any type of literature and both hold several Ph degrees. Both think they are pure and utter geniuses and both are extremely well prepared in their field. Both boast with their IQs. I don’t even know mine. 🙂

      1. Renarde says:

        Sorry, I was being cute there. I was just imagining a library only containing Clancy.

        It doesn’t, does it?

    3. K says:

      Bibi she is a UMR Elite matrinarc. I like Grisham’s older work better and I like Clancy, as well.

    4. NarcAngel says:

      I’m with you there. Education does not necessarily equal intelligence. There are many people denied an education that could wipe the floor with the highly educated ones in some arenas. Even here-we are from all walks of life and with different levels of education, yet here we all are. Having a shingle on the wall didnt make any difference in being sucked in and abused.

      1. Renarde says:

        Oh agreed. But what a lot do have (maybe all?) are phenomenal memories. That alone could take you very far in academia.

      2. Kiki says:

        M not sure I agree with this , the vast majority of educated people had to work hard mentally and overcome times when they felt like throwing in the towel.
        Yes many uneducated people have street smarts but I think overall the more learning you do the sharper the mind gets , like an athlete but using the mind not the body.
        Also those with higher intelligence tend to enjoy the challenge of learning and like to stay in education and will find a way no matter what.
        I’m from a poor background but it didn’t stop me , I worked hard and love learning my mind is always questioning .

        1. wolvesinwalden says:

          IQ is an oversimplified system, kind of like a numerical Meyers-Briggs in that neither can account for the intricacies of what constitutes one subset of a person’s range of understanding and their capacity to show that understanding. And like standardized testing here in the States, sorta. Learn to feed the test-taking machine and you’re passable, noncompliance is failure. How Borg-like. I love me some logic and reason, but damn, intelligence is multidimensional. Layered like ogres and onions.

          Your last sentence in particular, Kiki, is so on point! I’m embarrassed to admit I’m a double community college drop out, I like to say I’m an educational nonconformist. It’s nice to see such a wide range of people here, damn reaffirming really. <3

          Not knowing I've had ADHD all along pretty well fucked my educational trajectory (and motivation) over. I know I'm not a complete idiot, just like 2/3 idiot. Maybe less, maybe more, I dunno, math doesn't compute very well for me. Writing is easy, math is bullshit from another galaxy. (Ok, no it isn't bullshit, math has an important purpose and we need a form of measurement to quantify our understanding of just about everything. I'm just awful at it and bitter.)

          1. NarcAngel says:

            None of that makes you any fraction of idiot or anyone else more intelligent.

            You cannot measure intelligence by education only. It is merely an indicator. Shows that one has been measured and deemed able to function reasonably at a certain level. There are many intelligent people who have been denied an education because of their circumstances but it doesnt make them any less intelligent. They have just not been “measured”. No one is denying your effort or achievement, just pointing out that education alone does not determine a persons intellect. I know a highly educated and successful doctor for instance that cant put together an Ikea bookshelf or hold his own in a conversation outside of his practice lol. And again-there are many highly educated people here, but here we are all here despite our level of education.

          2. wolvesinwalden says:

            That comment was intended that help to drive your point home with an example and relieve a teensy bit of (probably imaginary) tension, but I do appreciate the reassurance all the same.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            You’re welcome.

  19. Supernova DE says:

    I so enjoyed reading this post of yours today! I’ve scrutinized this blog post so many times I practically have it memorized by now. I’m still confused about myself, I just spent my therapy hour this morning asking my therapist if I could possibly be a narc? Because I feel like one sometimes. I have always, since a teenager, felt I was a very caring person, but at the same time wondered if I was a bad person in my heart because of the way I CAN BE at times.

    I do see how being raised by a narc might foster narc traits in us even if we are empaths. Because being raised by a narc means that nothing is about you, as the child, since matrinarc would always make it about her, etc. There has to be a coping mechanism for this, and if you don’t end up a narc yourself, maybe this is how it turns out.

    I do have a significant addiction to my narc, which makes me feel like perhaps I am codependent at times. Though I don’t think a codependent would lie endlessly (and believe her own lies at times), manipulate actively with calculation and planning, etc. I only do these things with narcs, I see that as a pattern now. With the “normal” and other empaths in my life, I behave in a fully empathic way. I get more narc-like around narcs.

    The psychology behind all of this is so fascinating.

    1. Renarde says:

      The psychology IS fascinating. I hope your therapist asked you a key question. Do you cry when you are all alone, watching charity adverts?

      I personally have often pondered if I am a N myself who is just ‘kidding herself’. I have to come to the conclusion, no I am not.

      IF what HG says is true (and have no reason to doubt it) and I know I am intelligent (my degrees and memberships of eminent societies prove it) then I cannot be not self-aware.

      OK, so HG makes a very good point; you CAN be intelligent, even more than the Greaters and not know it. But an Empath always knows in their heart what is the right thing and the wrong thing to do.

      An E never deploys the PP and the Hoovers unless warranted. Ever. Or as I put it; I like to sleep at night. I don’t want stuff on my conscience. So I don’t do that stuff.

      There is no beast in me. Nor do I have a facade. What you see is what you get.

      I do understand where you are coming from.

      1. Supernova DE says:

        No she did not ask that question, but it is a good one. She essentially tried not to laugh at me and gave me many reasons why I am not a narc. And I cry when I’m alone ALL THE TIME. I actually hate crying in front of others, and will avoid it at all costs (fear or vulnerability, trust issues).
        I am not a narc. I know this. But when I think back about my behavior when I was in the 6-9 months where things were very unstable between MMRN affair partner and me, I judge myself at times.
        I would say to myself, “Hmm, I think he is really making up all this drama between him and his wife just to have a reason to text me and get my attention….oh but wait, that’s actually a really good idea!” Then I’d come up with a story about my husband and myself, like that my husband won’t screw me anymore (not true), or whatever, and I’d think about when would be the best time to drop this so that I could make sure I’d get narc’s attention with it. Etc. Etc. Etc.
        I couldn’t keep it going for a long period of time though, and so things would calm down between narc and I for a few weeks, then he’d piss me off and I’d go at it again for a while.

    2. Presque Vu says:

      Totally get this Supernova!!!
      I’ve lost count the amount of times I’ve asked HG if I’m a Narc, nex was convinced I was!! Repeatedly told me, and when you are told enough times you start to wonder. (HG still hasn’t told me what i am gggrrrrr – probably waiting until I consult)

      Thing is, I am ferocious and I mean FEROCIOUS! If pushed. I can manipulate and I can be cruel. I was devious and manipulating to survive beatings from my step-dad and would be defiant when punished. Totally defiant where I would take the beatings and smile to infuriate him more. He lost control through anger and I gained it by defiance. I’m sure if you had seen me at the time I looked evil because I felt evil.

      I have felt like this a handful of times. But it’s there deep within me and it scares me what I can be and what I can endure.

      Supernova, we are not co-dependant because we left them.
      Sure we are addicted (for me, at a distance) but there is no way on this planet I’d let him destroy me and smudge me into the ground like a cigarette butt. I don’t think you’d allow that either.
      We haven’t had a mental breakdown by giving too much of ourselves, we got angry – frustrated and left them with strength.

      We have blips, that’s why you think you are co-dependant. But we are not. That much I do know.

      1. Supernova DE says:

        Presque Vu,
        Your post reminded me of an anecdote my father used to remind me of before he died – When I was about 6 years old I behaved badly and received a hard spanking from him. Apparently, I was holding back tears but when he was done I stood and faced him and said, “That didn’t hurt daddy.” and went to my room…he always got a kick out of this story haha.
        That anecdote describes me well, if you start to get to me I go blank. Face, tone of voice – just flat. Must have learned it was the best way to get matrinarc to back off when I was little, who knows. BUT, if you push me….I explode. I have always always been this way.

        What is difficult is that with this post and the one about supernova, often you read and see comments that make you think a Super Empath is impervious to the narc. That she would resist ensnarement, not become addicted, resist the hoovers, etc. And while I think those things are true as compared to standard empath and co-dependent, we are not impervious. If we were, we wouldn’t have gone through something that led us to HG’s work.

        I have feared I am codependent because I do get some kind of “something” from the relationship, even though it is a dysfunctional relationship. But I realize after more thought that it is not validation (as a codependent would feel), it is attention and his reactions to ME. In essence, FUEL. This needs more thought on my end….intriguing.

      2. Caroline R says:

        The ‘do you cry when you’re alone and at charity adverts?’ is a good start to the ’empath or N?’ determination, but next question would be do you feel pleasure at others’ misfortune? Does their pain cause you pleasure? Part 3 of the decider is “can you be pleased for another’s good fortune? Do you feel jealous at another’s advancement of preferment?”.
        I think these are crucial aspects of the process.
        Lastly is the ability to form a deep attachment with another person, whereby you miss them when they are away from you. Miss them and not just their fuel, or just what they can do for you.

  20. Christine says:

    H.G. has talked about the beast inside him a lot, and how he needs to keep it caged.

    Super Empaths don’t cage our beasts. We tame them, and use them to protect ourselves and others. I think of mine as a dragon.

    I generally score high on narcissism tests, except for those questions about feeling entitled to use other people or not feeling for others. I score through the stratosphere on empath tests. Keeping empathy and self-regard balanced is our challenge, and our gift.

    1. NarcAngel says:


      “Super Empaths don’t cage our beasts. We tame them, and use them to protect ourselves and others. I think of mine as a dragon.”

      I like the way you put that. I have also referred to that feeling as my dragon.

      1. Twilight says:

        Narc Angel

        My dragon isn’t tame, she is blending in on some white sand beach enjoying the waves and the ocean breeze.

  21. Roxanne says:

    yup, that’s me, but I also have narcissistic traits, strong enough to use instictively manipulation techniques of the malignant greatest narc. To qoute him – “I just don’t get it how your brain works.” I am super empathetic to the verge of insanity for people that matter to me coupled with a profound egotistical me. I am also extremely emotional and creative. Like there are 2 people inside me. It happened that he was one of the very few people in my life I felt that mattered. During the relationship I started from initially being atracted to his inner weakness (which I knew from start that it was there,under the tough facade) to outbursts of hurting him intentionally as much as he was hurting me. I knew what he was all the time, only I could not conceive he was pathological, weird, that was fine with me, but dark triade and everything else was just too much. Everything of course ended in insanity in the moment I found out he had infected my pc with malware long before he had made his first move of “meeting” me online. So he knew everything about me before and during all our interactions while I was operating in blind mode all the time. And still I beat him at his own game and escaped and got legal proof and some vengeance back (not enough, the rest will follow in due time, which now can be forever, I don’t mind). Still, it cost me 8 months of my life which sucks. Right now he cannot hoover anymore, cannot get past legal and IT protection I have. For the last 8 months we have continuously hurt and lured eachother, emotionally and indirectly, on and forth, without talking to eachother once. His wish and devious plan is to destroy my family and see me divorced, mine is to see him in jail. And I will win this battle. But it almost cost me my mind, because I am not that cold and calculated as he is, I am more impulsive and had to manage both the emotional deception and puting things together so I understand what and how he did it, build my case and rise an army to protect me and get after him. Meanwhile, his state of mind deteriorates and his frustrations of not being able to reach me made him do some very wrong moves, the kind of moves that will cost him dearlery in every way. I have seen enough to finally block him for good, now that I know everything about him and did everything I could about him. Not my job anymore, now the “hounds” will do the job for me). Blocking and unblocking during all this time (not exchangling private messages,calls or sms in anyway), just regular neutral posts and some triangulations/flying monkey messages ended yesterday, when I decided it is time for me to disengage completely and let nature follow its course. I don’t need to do anything else now, that’s it, I will just wait until he is destroying himself to bits. Which he is.

  22. Renarde says:

    [Can I insert my own malicious chortle here?]

    I have just found the ability to use html in these comments but apologies if this goes wrong. Hopefully it will be obvious.

    They hold their ability to empathise, to heal, to fix and impart goodness as a great gift and one which ought not to be abused.

    It should never abused in any empath (or person). It often is because of the ‘cusp of self-awareness’. In an SE, yeah it get’s ‘smelled’. And pretty quickly too. How long it will be tolerated depends on individual characteristics of the SE themselves and what is ‘going on’ in their own fuel matrix. Plus the ability to ‘self-reflect’. Oh yes, we have matrices too. As HG is well aware but others’ of my breathern may not be. This is often routed deeply in the SE’s childhood psychology. This is why Ns and Es are truly the flip side of the coin.

    The false strength which the narcissist exhibits at the outset of the seduction, the confidence, the apparent satisfaction with his self, that he appears comfortable in his own skin, at ease with others, capable of lighting up a room and so forth is a huge attraction to the Super Empath because that person actually sees something of themselves in the narcissist when the narcissist is seducing.

    Utterly and totally true. I just couldn’t see the wood for the trees.

    <em.The Super Empath is also more challenging to the narcissist and therefore is usually the recipient of some Mid-Range narcissists and most often the Greater Narcissist.

    [Grins!]. Oh yes! 5 and very possibly 6. I’m only 42!!!!

    Not ONE SINGLE ONE has yet chosen to devalue me. Not. Fucking. One. Oh, they can have their ‘moments’ but nowhere NEAR on the scale of the Ls and the Ms.

    The Super Empath is the one more likely to make a bid for escape and thus leave the narcissist with a cessation problem.

    I just say and it’s extremely simple to those that bother me. Fuck.Off. I rarely bother with full NC with a GEN. It means I don’t exert emotional energy on my behalf. I let them Hoover like they are in Ms Havershams’ on a particularly bad day at the office. There is a reason for this; we are both utterly entranced with each other.

    Not one of the types will often go in full throttle. We just don’t. Not unless it would become perilous not to do so. Then it could get very scary indeed. I’ve not yet encountered this scenario. Hopefully; I won’t.

    Out of all of the schools and cadres (of which I have known many), it’s the GEN’s that are my favourites. They often provide intellectual and carefully thought out practical support which, for me, is obviously a residual benefit. I’ll fucking gush like Yellowstone Park. Why wouldn’t I? I find them utterly amazing!

    They make me laugh; they make me think. They are often extremely good in bed. What’s not to like? As long as we all play nicely, there are great benefits to be had for all.

    Something to ponder on, maybe?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Therein lies the problem, “as long as we all play nicely.” No, as long as you play nicely and you do not know what that necessarily means from our perspective, hence mistakes are made and consequences follow.

      1. Renarde says:

        Apologies. I’ve transgressed in this post as I’ve turned a phrase ‘Let’s all play nicely’ but I’ve not actually defined my own boundary conditions of what ‘playing nicely’ means to ME.

        It means: (This is WRT another GEN)

        Don’t ever devalue me to my face. Having a whinge is fine every now and again. Telling me, for example (repeatedly) that the way I wash the dishes is crap. Or I type weird. (Yeah fuckwit lesser. I don’t see YOU coming out with original concepts fella me lad. You are too busy dragging your knuckles on the ground). Or I’m not organised enough (true – but again, fuck you)

        Don’t try to devalue me to others ‘cos funnily enough, my ‘Generals’ will report back. I will know I have been smeared. Again. Fuck you.

        Your manipulations will be subtle but they will be there. If I can’t cognitively see it there is a very good chance I will sense it. Being all ’empathic’ like. It will make me stop and think. This always ends badly. For all concerned.

        Engage with me in a positive and respectful manner. Even if it is done for ulterior motives. I get that. We all think differently.

        To my mind you see, the SE’s and the GEN’s are pretty much always at war. Even though we are entranced. The trouble is, SE’s fight a defensive campaign but the GEN’s fight an offensive campaign. This is where it becomes troublesome.

        Every now and again, the white flag is raised and a temporary break in hostilities follows. Then it’s all love and roses as we remind ourselves what we are to each other. Then, some incident will spark it all off and back to our trenches we go.

        Above all, and to the external reader, SE’s MUST grasp what they are pretty damn quickly or they will be repeatedly be taken advantage of. Time and time again.

      2. MB says:

        Renarde, the rules for “playing nice” change without them telling you. What was nice this morning might be wounding this afternoon. Besides, you don’t know who else is playing “nicer” than you causing you to be painted black through no fault of your own. Play with the malign dragons at your own risk! 🐉

    2. Twilight says:


      How many GEN have you encountered?

      1. Renarde says:

        It’s about 5 ish

      2. Renarde says:

        Sorry. Just to be specific. Two GCNs and three GENs.

      3. Twilight says:

        Not one of them ever devalued you?

        1. Renarde says:

          Difficult to answer. Very very rarely to my face. Behind my back? For sure. One was a full on smear. Another smeared but only mildly as part of a hoover. Third. Possibly but that’s a supposition. Fourth no. Fifth…we’ll see.

          1. Twilight says:

            Are you still in contact with these men?

          2. Renarde says:

            Four of them I am. One won’t leave me alone. I’m tied by other constraints to another. Another, I’m his consensual NISS and the last one I’m talking to.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            A Dom tied by constraints made me chuckle.

          4. Twilight says:

            Narc Angel

            You know Hush just appeared this morning, right?

          5. Renarde says:

            LMAO! That was a completely unintentional turn of phrase as well!

          6. Twilight says:


            You wrote this

            “Not ONE SINGLE ONE has yet chosen to devalue me. Not. Fucking. One. Oh, they can have their ‘moments’ but nowhere NEAR on the scale of the Ls and the Ms.”

            “Very very rarely to my face. Behind my back? For sure. One was a full on smear”

            Both of these are slightly different and to my understanding say differently on being devalued.

          7. Renarde says:

            Yeah, I get you. I would perceive it as a devaluement though as it’s ruining my reputation and thus my ‘value’ in others’ perceptions.

    3. Roxanne says:

      “Not one of the types will often go in full throttle. We just don’t. Not unless it would become perilous not to do so. Then it could get very scary indeed. I’ve not yet encountered this scenario. Hopefully; I won’t.”

      Well, I am living this scenario, right now. It’s exhausting and dangerous, but worthy. And it makes you feel like you have upgraded yourself. The problem is, it’s hard to take it on too long and almost impossible to be 100% cold and calculated. But once you get the grip of it, it works wonders.

      1. Renarde says:

        Sorry MB – I cannot reply to your reply (WordPress is a cunt). I have liked your comment so hopefully you will also see this one too.

        I would be extremely disappointed if he didn’t change his game to suit his wishes. This is the thing; WE have a choice. WE can choose to engage or disengage at will. It’s our own ER that ‘binds us’. Or is it blinds us….

        Once you disengage from that narrative; suddenly… it all becomes clear. Funny that!

        Or to put it in the words of a Greater ex (of many years I might add) when I was talking about another Greater. ‘But yeah’, he would say, ‘You MUST be getting something from this as well?’.

        He was right; I was. Didn’t stop the fucker messaging the other Greater behind my back. Or posting cryptic messages to the world on another platform. Oh how the Greater i was with would have adored that. ‘Stolen’ a SE from another G. [Snort]

        Dear Roxanne

        Absolutely bang on. You cannot sustain it 100% and nor should you try. As you have rightly observed, it leads to ‘burn out’. Push down the E for a sustained period and you will get the blow back. I suspect this has happened to you.

        You are indeed correct. Once you grasp it; it works wonders.

        Hope you are well.

    4. Christine says:

      “As long as they play nicely.”

      They cheat.

      My Greater Cerebral ex, oh how I adored him. He was the first person I’d ever met who intellectually challenged me — because he mirrored me. He showed me myself, that was all. He didn’t give me the challenge of equals I searched for. It was all smoke and mirrors. The sex was great and I feared it would never be that great again, but I was oh so wrong.

      There’s no there there. They take and take without giving anything back. When you become infatuated with a Greater Narc, you’re only infatuated with yourself. And that is not enough.

      1. Renarde says:

        When you become infatuated with a Greater Narc, you’re only infatuated with yourself

        I actually don’t believe that to be true. In the majority of cases, dealing with the lower schools, that IS true. They reflect back at you what you wish. Usually love or companionship or even friendship.

        All of the above are empathic reactions. Intelligence, however is not. It is cerebral.

        Above all of their schools, Gs are fucking intensely intelligent. They are showoffs, ‘Cos, N and all that shizzle. They want to talk. They need to talk. They also need someone on that level who they don’t need to carefully explain every single word to or indeed ‘turn of phrase’. This is called ‘scaffolding’ and both sides get very irritated by the need to it with others.

        Of course Gs mirror. But so do the SE’s. What I have observed is that when a G and it’s usually a GEN and a SE start talking, they start to talk in what I would call it, ‘oral shorthand’. I often pondered this about the man I was with last and this year. We had many, many conversations. On the phone and when we met physically.

        It’s like twins. Often sentences stop in the middle. Or they are finished by the other person. There are no rows; no arguments unless a manip. is being deployed and even then… To an external observer, the conversation would be pretty much unintelligible. But we would get it.

        I also guarantee at some point, we would both start crying with laughter. It almost always happened with the ex I mentioned. It makes you feel good. Of course, one could argue it’s all part of the smoke and mirrors etc but actually, in this scenario, I don’t think it really is.

        The reason why is because I am secure in my own E reactions. We are both genuinely getting something from this interaction.

        I have had those motherfuckers known as the ‘Ms’, sit in front of me. Nervous as fuck. provoking me. prodding me. I observe, I sit and wait for the inevitable.

        ‘Must get a reaction. Must get a reaction’. They will go to all lengths to achieve this. A Greater will NOT do this unless under extreme provocation. Tits.

        Hope this helps!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Not all Greaters are showoffs – may operate within certain spheres which do not require showmanship. Others operate in a clandestine fashion, performing what needs to be done and achieved as an eminence grise. Nor are they necessarily intensely intelligent, true, we are not lacking in considerable intelligence, but you may have an UMR who may have an IQ higher than a greater.

          1. WhoCares says:

            There are many kinds of intelligence that ‘IQ’ tests do not measure.

          2. Twilight says:


            I agree, I made my comment only because of the difference between the two of them, now I would never in a million years have told my ex Greater this fact.

          3. Renarde says:

            No true. But the need to grandstand is always there. On ex for example was quite quiet until you got him on certain subjects and off he went.

            Eminence gris? Yes Mr Urqhart. Yes 🙂

        2. Roxanne says:

          True. Absolutely true. But when both the GN and SE are smart or, like in my/our case Super Smart (see how modest I am) the bonding, the highs and lows are abysmal. World War III. Right now I am doing tremendous efforts to get out of the “game” logic, only because I value my own sanity more than my pride. It’s the logical thing to do. Hard. Fucking hard. Having the upper hand, ah, when nothing else is left, this is the greatest compulsion. He can manipulate my emotions and visceral reactions.I know exactly how to manipulate and hurt his ego. I know it’s useless, but, oh, so damn tempting. I’ve learned from him- how to be calculated and plan in advance. I don’t like it but now I can do it. As time goes by, and in my case the time is on my side, the law and hounds and the army I’ve built are on my side, it’s just a matter of waiting. I can wait longer because I’m not designed to need fuel. He is. We’re playing now the game of waiting, and he doesn’t even know it. I don’t care anymore what he thinks or feel of me. All I have to do is wait and from time to time “push” him a little so he acts again, not even towards me. I just help him go down faster.
          He wanted it this way. So I give it to him.

          1. Renarde says:

            I get this. I really do. I have a long term plan with another but I just don’t let it bother me unless certain circumstances happen. Then I have a very standard response which I just post off.
            It’s actually amazing how many people are already aware of his behaviour…

      2. Twilight says:


        I was with a UMR that I was with had a higher IQ then my ex whom is a Cereabal Greater. Neither of them was show offs. UMR was an elite.

        1. Renarde says:

          That’s fascinating!

          I probably fallen into my own trap here. All the Gs I know have been super smart. So in order;

          PhD in Physics
          Prof. of Economics
          Degree in Comp. Science and earning five figures
          Software Engineer
          The fifth, not sure…

          1. Twilight says:

            Being intelligent doesn’t make one a greater.

            My ex Greater knew and understood what he was, the fact that he explained his perspective to me in a very similar way HG has here, the UMR May have had an understanding many of his actions were wrong, no true awareness.

            The UMR was above and beyond super smart, holds degrees and has a salary over 6 figures.
            The Greater doesn’t come close to the degrees and/or the salary the UMR has.

            Many would mistake the UMR as a Greater he is not, one is rare the other is not.

          2. Renarde says:

            Intriguing! Yes, self-aware makes you a Greater. But equally, I know a UM who is holding quite a menial job which is way beneath what he could do.

            Equally, one of the Greaters is also not really in a position one would expect him to be. It is a position however which is perfect for all kinds of skull duggery.

            But they do brag about IQ. Not a greater but a lesser attempted to con me by inissiitng his IQ was 148. 14.8 more like.

          3. Twilight says:


            It doesn’t matter what you think is beneath them it is where they see they can accomplish their goals in a manner that suits them.

            My Husband was ULN his impulsiveness, aggression, and temper is what held him back not his IQ.

          4. NarcAngel says:

            I often wonder what people are basing the fact theyre with a greater on. I think it comes down to pride mostly. He/she had a good education or seemed intelligent and they duped me so they must be a Greater. So many people cite being with a Greater (and thats just here), that either theyve got it wrong or they are not as rare as HG states. I’ll go with one who knows his own kind. No biggie if people want to believe they are but they wont be learning how to deal effectively in their own situation.

            Can you give an approximate percentage of those who consult or have used the Narc Detector that have been incorrect in their believing their Narc to be a Greater or Elite? Just curious.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Approximately 10%

          6. Twilight says:

            Narc Angel

            I agree I believe pride has an influence on people, it is frustrating seeing it here at times yet I know one must discover for themselves the truth before they will actually grow or effectively deal with their own situations.
            This is where I see the lies we tell ourselves to keep one comfortable.

            Now I may be wrong when I said my ex UMR was an elite, yet going to the gym every freaking day and yes I had to be there to is why I called him an elite.

          7. windstorm says:

            10% inaccuracy is not much. I base my calling mine a greater on the facts that 1. he does obviously know what he is and why he does what he does, and 2. that he does not fit any of the criteria HG gives us of a midranger or lesser.

            I totally agree with you that intelligence alone means nothing. And having advanced degrees does not necessarily denote high intelligence. I have two narc friends who have doctorates and are obviously midrangers.

          8. NarcAngel says:

            I agree, and was surprised at 10%, but then I realized thats only of the ones who actually DO consult. I know you have an extensive familial history with narcissism and have studied to make your assessments. I read many accounts here though where the behaviour they recount is not always in line with the criterion for that class (in fact sometimes they dont even sound like a narcissist) and I wonder if they are basing it on education, income, appearance, or again-pride. I just know that if something is rare (and thats how the Greater has been characterized by HG) then either we have captured quite a chunk of the worlds Greaters here (which seems unlikely), or they are not so rare. I’m here to learn also and I wonder which is the case. I dont think I have ever been involved with a Greater (aside from in the workplace) but based on the assessment of some-perhaps I have and just didnt recognize them as such because of the way I am or because my expectations were higher.

          9. windstorm says:

            I agree. I think we don’t recognize Greaters as often because they are smart enough and aware enough to hide their narcissism from non-family. I can easily spot the narcs at work, but wouldn’t be able to categorize them.

            I also feel there may be a bias towards thinking intelligence, wealth and especially higher college degrees and prestigious jobs mean a greater. To disprove that, just look at our idiot-in-chief, Trump. He’s educated, wealthy and has the most powerful and prestigious job in the country and HG says he’s a Lesser!
            Both my Wiccan friend in NYC and my Moron in Munich have PhD’s and she is a college professor, yet their behavior puts them both in the Midrange category.

            It’s easy to spot a narc once you know the signs, but you really have to observe their behavior and compare it to HGs writings to accurately label which category they fall into.

            Maybe the discrepancy is partly because victims of Greaters are more likely to come here to the blog? Don’t know. Or it could be like you say. Maybe more commenters have Greaters like how so many are Super Empaths. 😊

            What do you mean maybe you didn’t recognize Greaters because your “expectations were higher?” I find that intriguing. I doubt you would recognize my exhusband as one, because he often acts funny and hick-like as a front to get people to underestimate him. He doesn’t give off the aura of malevolence that so many of them do. But I think Lessers give that off more than Greaters. To me, I wonder if one is a Greater if I can feel a sense of deep calculation. But my exhusband hides that very well, too, until he will spring it on someone he wants to frighten. Lol!

          10. NarcAngel says:

            Thats exactly it. Before I even finished your post, the thought in my head was the level of calculation is what separates them for me, and for that you have to be paying very close attention because they do try to conceal it as you have described. Even when someone is trying to come across as a hick there is a level of sophistication that they cannot hide if youre paying attention.

          11. windstorm says:

            Too true. If you see thru his disguise, it amuses him and he’ll smile and acknowledge it. Then he’ll open up around you and be more himself.

      3. nunya biz says:

        “They cheat.”

        And steal.

        1. Renarde says:


      4. nunya biz says:

        Yeah, twilight, but it’s just referring to combo cerebral and somatic right?
        So why not?

        Also HG I think there is a lesser somatic?

      5. Christine says:

        Renarde, everything you’re saying looks very familiar to me.

        I can only say good luck. You’re gonna need it.

      6. nunya biz says:

        Re: Greaters

        Just typing out my thought process here….
        I cannot say that I know for sure, but I do think that my mind is in the right place as far as making my opinion, does not mean it is correct. I find it confusing, especially because I don’t feel objective enough really.

        I would like to talk to HG at some point, but I’m not sure how pressing that is for me really so I’m hesitant because it would be for me for education and peace of mind and hopefully some self-understanding, so I feel a little uncoordinated about it yet. Of course I do things be “feel” so much I just know that my mind will circle around to knowing what I want to do and when and how to formulate a question. I like knowing that it is available. So many people on here are in intense, immediate, threatening situations and mine are in the past, it is self-discipline and growth that is my most pressing issue.

        But for myself it was not a physical relationship, so I’ve no ego, in fact he made sure to make me feel worthless at some point, so no ego there at all except his. My reason for thinking he is N is based on specific N behaviors, very long story.
        My reason for thinking greater is because I believe he knows what he’s doing, that he has awareness, and Christine’s comment very much resonates with me. I’ve also toyed with the idea of MR. I am unsure. I don’t think he’s anywhere near as smart as he thinks and I told him that I think he is a mediocre writer. I don’t respect him at all frankly. It’s just the awareness level I’m suspicious about. People can be so strangely automatic though, it scares me about myself too.

        My first live in physical, romantic relationship 20 years ago was 100% certainly with a very abusive narcissist who was a lesser. I was young, naive, unaware and he pursued me and I got tangled up. He would lock me in the house and take away the phone, etc… I was traumatized still when I got married and I used to tell my husband that I felt so free being able to wake up in the morning and not immediately be fearful.
        I’ve had physical relationships with lesser and MR, not a greater to my knowledge, although I’ve had two men express to me that they might be sociopathic.

    5. Supernova DE says:

      Can you explain what you mean here that SE’s have their own “matrix”? I’m curious.

      1. Renarde says:

        For sure. Every person on the planet has one. Except we would call it ‘our life’. A network of friends, family co-workers etc. They all form part of the network. ‘Normals’ won’t be attracting the Ns as much because of their energy but the Es obviously do. It’s for this reason that it is vital I believe that just as Ns manage their networks, the Es must also do as well and on a conscious basis.

        Naturally, there are people we interact with on a more regular basis. So IPPS (one usually), unlikely to be having IPSS’s but could do in the case of polyamory. The Es will have more NISS’s, these are usually our friends and of course family. The tertiaries are co-workers or colleagues. You get the drift.

        OK, so as HG, N and Es are the flip sides of the coin. That made me wonder. I think we get so fixated on whom we are sleeping with we forget about our friends. However, there are differences between our kinds being that the Ns take energy, Es give and take. Natural friendships. However, I guarantee that in any Es matrix there are the N ‘friends’. At first, they will appear to give – ohh were have we heard that one before? But over time, it changes. They begin to drag you down, you begin to feel tired around them. Make excuses not to take that phone call. We’ve all been there. The E is naturally disengaging in response to what might become, for them, a ‘fuel crisis’. Tired All The Time (TATT)? Is there an underlying medical condition or is energy literally being ‘sucked’ from you?

        Oh and if you especially unlucky, you might find that an N has ‘inserted’ one or two ‘lieutenants’ into YOUR matrix. I found this to be the case with me. I rapidly performed a complete NC on them once their status became obvious. Of course, being N females (and possibly one male N too) they were likely to be middlers and therefore completely unaware of what they were to the N (a GEN). But I knew and he knew I knew.

        I knew he was attempting a ‘mild’ smear so I said nowt and kept schtum. I then had to dig further and be really careful who I chose to share info with.

        In essence, it’s boundary control and management.

        I have lots to say on energy management/conservation for the Es but I don’t want this to become over wordy.

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