Promiscuous Boy


I remember the day, or more accurately that the floodgates were opened on my promiscuity. It was when I attended a particular university for the purposes of an admission interview. It was early December and this historic and beautiful university city was lit up by orange and yellow lamps as a little mist clung to the narrow alleyways and courtyards. I had concluded my two interviews (read Fury if you want to know more about how they progressed and how one interview impacted on me) and returned to the junior common room to meet up with two other candidates. They were applying to the same college but to read a different subject to me. They were both English literature students. He was from Greenock in Scotland and she was a bookbinder’s daughter from Cambridge in England. Beer was consumed, stories swapped and the fellow from Greenock retired to his room. The bookbinder’s daughter, she was called Sarah, came back to my room and we talked before we climbed into bed together. I had a girlfriend at the time and whilst there had been dalliances with other girls I had not slept with another. That changed that night. And in the morning too. Sarah wandered away across the quadrangle to her room and I rose from my bed to seek out the bathroom. She decided to stay another day at the college because she wanted to spend time with me. I was happy for her to do so as I waited around, as was customary, in case an interview arose at another college.  The following day we both departed, she to the east and me to the west and once I alighted at the train station near to my girlfriend’s house I went straight round to see her. She was pleased to see me and embraced me with enthusiasm. I returned the enthusiasm. I had no sense of guilt at my infidelity. Nothing at all. Instead I revelled in the way I had taken Sarah to my bed and now strode into my then girlfriend’s bedroom with her asking with admiration how my interview had progressed and what the college was like.

Following that first time I never looked back. I cheated left, right and centre. With that girlfriend and with all subsequently. Why did I do it? Way back then I realised how good it made me feel but I had no understanding of why I actually did it. Something always drove me to do it. I realised that the relevant girlfriend would be upset if she knew what I had done but this never stopped me. I never gave it a second thought. Even as I was locked in an embrace with some relative stranger and an image of the girlfriend formed in my mind I felt no tug of conscience, remorse or guilt. All I knew was that I was able to seduce, pull, entice and ensnare everywhere I went. I would meet someone and always find something attractive about them – it might be the colour of their hair, the length of their legs, their accent, the way they rolled the letter r, the fact they drank with a straw or the size of their breasts. It might be their enthusiasm for a particular band, their recollections of travelling or the manicured nails. Each and everyone had some kind of attraction. I could not resist trying to ensnare someone in order to bring them under my spell. It was then that I realised what it was that really drew me to them, it was the promise of their attention. I realised I was able to get them hooked on me. I had convinced myself that I was drawn to them for some other reason but it dawned on me that I was just telling myself that as a reason. A reason that I required to explain this compelling desire to couple with someone. But that was not the real reason. The truth was that I wanted their attention on me and this was the way to get it.

Yes it was pleasant engaging in that first kiss and I enjoyed the sensations that arose when the embrace escalated but it was not what I actually I wanted. I wanted them to praise me. I wanted them to become transfixed by me and for them to shine their spotlight firmly on me.  The promiscuity has always continued and it does not matter who with it is the fact that I am able to do seduce and by so doing gather that starry-eyed admiration, those pleasing words and the attention. This engagement does not end with behaving in a promiscuous fashion. I will engage in discussions with a stranger of my own sex,at a bar, a railway platform or in a lift. I have no desire to seduce them sexually for that is not my preference but I do cause them to like me and in so doing give me that fuel that I need.

Often I feel like admitting my repeated transgressions straight away to the relevant girlfriend of the time but I have no desire to puncture my primary source of fuel by doing this. I do find it interesting how they always react with such alarm and distress on the odd occasion I do make such a confession. If I tell them how well I got on with a random male in an exchange at a bar, someone with whom I have swapped views, thoughts and opinions, I receive a smile and a comment of,

“Always good to make new friends.”

Yet an admission of coupling with a stranger results in hysteria even though to me these interactions are similar. Yes, one might yield greater fuel than the other but in terms of intimacy they are equally redundant. That is not why I do it. I do not do it because I want to savour the sensation of another’s mouth against me. I do it because I want them to give me fuel. I can understand how you may be aghast if in a normal relationship a partner behaves with infidelity but to our kind it just about the attention, the admiration, the fuel. You have such a great hang up because sex is involved. That is just the gateway device to me. If I could get the attention another way so that it provides such fuel then believe me I will do it. However, in your world, on the whole, the act of a sexual union accords a greater connection between two people which means you yield more fuel and are more inclined to keep providing it as you seek more from the liaison.

Our promiscuity arises to enable us to achieve fuel. From the new target who is seduced by us and from you should we alert you in some way (either in whole or in part) to our new interest. The condemnation that is attached to promiscuity when in a relationship means that your reaction just provides us with even more fuel. There is a risk of your supply being punctured by this revelation but it is a calculated risk and is often done when the quality of your supply generally has started to wane.

To us promiscuity when in a relationship is merely a means to an end. To you, well, you behave as if it is the end of the world. It really isn’t.

365 thoughts on “Promiscuous Boy

  1. MB says:

    That works also! I’m always up for a good fire.

  2. Sweetest Perfection says:

    Sorry if this question appears twice, I’m a little bit lost with this WordPress thingy and I meant to post a comment previously that has fallen into narc limbo or something. HG, you say in this thread empaths are not allowed to act in the same cheating manner because narcissists make the rules, not us. My question was why mine was constantly telling me he is not possessive, that I am free to do what I want and that I’m too hot and therefore should have many lovers and he would be flattered by that? (Please, notice I’m paraphrasing him, I’m not bragging about being too hot or anything -I don’t want anyone to suspect I’m a hidden narc interacting here-). Why do you think he said such thing?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Please see earlier answer given.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        I found it! Thanks, HG. He did get a reaction: I escaped. Not sure if that’s the want he was looking for, though…

  3. SMH says:


    I can see your comments on the blog but not in my inbox so I am responding here to your queries about what made me think MRN knew something was wrong with him.

    Little hints. I was sympathetic until the end because I thought he might have Aspergers. Maybe comorbid conditions. Who knows. I once asked if he was on the spectrum. He didn’t know what I meant and I did not pursue it.

    Several times I said he seemed like two different people. The first time he did not respond because it was over email and easy for him to ignore. The second time was in person. He said something about other people having said the same and coming to dislike him but he did not offer an explanation. On this occasion he asked what my friends thought. I said they told me to leave him and he was not surprised. He also said on numerous occasions that he did not understand other people’s emotions and that his were very limited.

    During one of our last conversations, post escape when all of my repressed anger came out, I told him I was petrified of him because he was so cold. This was also over email so again he ignored it. At our last face to face, I said that for the longest time, I thought he had Aspergers. He said, he might but I insisted he had a personality disorder. He deflected – everyone has a personality disorder.

    BS might admit to something but as HG says, the narcissistic perspective will only deflect and deny, not allowing self-awareness. I think we all have problems with self-awareness. But for a narc even facts are to be rejected. Mine denied outright lying to IPPS and stalking me online, and he subconsciously denied that I had left him.

    I think that like BS, mine has had a lot of failed IPSS attempts. It was a miracle that I stayed so long, but to my mind that is because I am pretty resilient and can take a lot of abuse before I crack. I think you and I are pretty similar.

    Do you believe you can help BS? Do you even want to? Post escape I thought I could help MRN. I tried to be a supportive friend but the abuse continued.

    1. Lori says:

      They know they might not have insight as to why they are behaving the way they are but they know something is not right especially bythe time they get to a certain age.

      I have been with both a mid range and a lesser and both have indicated they lniw something is not quite right with them

      1. SMH says:

        I have that experience too, Lori, and you are right. Both knew. Lesser stewed a lot in his own juices and once texted me while I was overseas that he had woken up knowing something was really wrong with him. I thought he was suicidal at the time. But of course he then turned it all around so that I became the problem.

  4. jenna says:

    Shall we rename the article ‘promiscuous b*st*>d’? Lol
    Don’t hate me hg!!

    1. jenna says:

      I just realized that will sound like a command to you ‘don’t hate me’
      Let me rephrase. ‘Hg, if you would be so kind to consider not hating me, but of course it’s your choice’
      Ya, I had alot of practice talking like this during entanglement.

      1. Empath says:

        Hee hee

  5. Empath says:


    I just wanted to say, please keep trying. It was logic that brought me to resistance. No matter how bad the intense withdrawal, I could not deny the blaring truth that no matter what, under any circumstances, a successful relationship was absolutely IMPOSSIBLE with this person. Not to mention the shame and humiliation I would have suffered if I had ever given him another chance.

    Because the psycho I dated had a false identity, I had to reveal it to everyone that had met him through me. That was highly embarrassing because not only did it make me look like an idiot, I VALIDATED his false identity by introducing him, allowing him to mingle with all of my friends, family, and coworkers. It must of been an amazing source of fuel for him-the hundreds of interactions he had through me-all under the guise of a false identity. He is a complete psycho.

    If you cannot gather enough enough self esteem on your own to resist the Narcissist Hoover than just look at the blatant truth of the matter, sociopaths will always cheat and lie to you. There is not an OUNCE of hope that this could possibly change. You cannot love evil out of someone who revels in it, indeed driven by it. Only despair awaits if you maintain any sort of connection, do not “check” if you are unblocked or not, BLOCK all sources of contact! No matter how badly you just want to peek, when the urge hits you, just say STOP & this behavior will only HURT ME! And the very best reason is IT IS EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT you to do, above all else, do not give them what they want!

    The psycho I was involved with had accessed all of my email and social media accounts, including access through my router even though I had changed all of my passwords he still was able to find out somehow I was going on vacation to a certain spot. He reopened his FB account and changed it to another alias, then plastered it with pictures of him with another victim AT THE EXACT PLACE I was going on vacation…about 3 days before I was leaving to go…and made sure to make comments so I would know he intended on still being there while I was there. I had unfriended him but had not blocked him before he dismantled his FB acct- and another friend of mine saw the new alias FB page and alerted me he was back on line. I was intrigued enough to look, because he had disappeared once I had exposed him. He made certain all of his posts were PUBLIC which he never had done before, and he blocked all of his real family and friends from the site (and wife-I didn’t know he was married) so they couldn’t see it. He also put my home town as his location as an added intimidation, although I knew he wasn’t here local.

    When I saw he was staying where I was about to go on vacation, I called the police…because I knew he had created that page and went there just to provoke a reaction out of me, and at the time I was very concerned for my safety. I had already filed multiple reports with the police because of the false identity and a tracking device found on my vehicle. I filed a 2nd police report and sent a description of him and his vehicle to the vacation spot police department ahead of time. The police looked out for me and my kids the whole time while we were there on vacay and we never saw him. The KEY though, was NO MATTER WHAT I never responded or acknowledged in any way that I saw this magnificent hoover he created on FB. I wanted to rage on him of course, but that is what he wanted. He even started liking things on my page and my other friends pages from the past (he could access some how since we had old links) to try and make certain I saw his magnificent creation. Again, I never acknowledged it in any way. I didn’t block it either though, until I returned from my vacay and posted pictures about having a great time. Which I would have done anyway, hoover or not. I guess it was my one way of demonstrating I had a great time despite his attempts to intimidate me or cause me to cancel my plans. He still succeeded in scaring me but I didn’t let it stop me from going. When I finally blocked him, I knew even that would give him fuel, because it would mean I acknowledged I saw it; so that is why I waited until after my own beach pictures were posted.

    Anyway, there were other hoovers since then but that one was his greatest direct effort to hurt me I suppose. Even though I did not feel at all jealous towards the new victim, my heart did fill we with sorrow for her. He was careful not to link her identity on the new fake page so I could not contact her and warn her. I had enough evidence and had already exposed him to others-she likely had NO IDEA she was plastered all over that FB page…and he likely was NOT using the same identity with her as this new page displayed as well. She would have commented on the pictures. In hindsight it was very likely he was not there on vacay at all but used pictures from the last time he was there with this woman (probably when we were together), and just wanted me to THINK he was there. You can locate yourself anywhere using FB. Just like he located he lived in my hometown and I knew for a fact he was not here.

    Anyway RG, my point was, BLOCK EVERY AND ALL ACCESS to the Narcissist. The addiction lessens the further you get away from any interaction. Accept in your mind it would NEVER EVER work out with this person and it was malicious from the very beginning. I had so many people staring at that crazy new FB page of my ex (because it was so bizarre) that I finally had to ask all of them to block him too. And to stop telling me what they saw; each post he was targeting me and it was obvious, many people were concerned for my safety not to mention fascinated by his FB display of insanity.

    As my nemesis H.G. says, when you know, you go…and don’t look back. Put some things in place to do if you are triggered and have the urge to respond to his hoovers. Protect yourself at all costs. Remember-NO CHANCE IT WOULD EVER WORK OUT. Life is far too short to waste a moment of your precious time with these FREAKS. (Sorry H.G….um, well, maybe I’m not).

    That psycho I was involved with would gain fuel knowing I was writing even one word about him on any forum- it infuriates me, but I do it for therapy and to help others. I still give him relationship fuel “posthumously”. Lol

    We are here for the human experience, a relationship with a Narcissist is inhumane. Love and vulnerability in a deeply seated trust are the essence of a healthy relationship. Never settle for anything else-there is nothing a Narcissist can offer you other than pain.

    Pursue joy instead.

    1. RG says:

      Dear Empath, thank you for your kind guidance. I’m so sorry you had such elaborate and terrifying hoovers, how deranged and terrifying was he?!!!

      There is no chance that I’d concider the possibility of trying to save him in the hope that we could find a happily ever after. I know too well that that does not exist with a person like that. My fear is that if he ever did manage to catch me off guard whether id be strong enough to walk away without getting sucked in by his manipulation.

      I unraveled 4 different identities for him online! Shocking?! Hiding himself from all the innocent people he has used and abused! I feel sick at the thought that I (along with many others) was just click bait! Something he could pick up when he had a few free hours from his fiancé (I never knew of her as I met him on a dating site so naturally assumed he was single) to keep his cock entertained 🤢🤮. Repulsed at the thought that that had been in numerous people. I hate that he disrespected my body by putting me at risk of STIs.

      I really want him to get what is coming to him. Why do such nasty scumbags seem to sail through life unscathed?
      HG are Narcs as depressed and suicidal as they want their abused to think they are or is that purely to control us?
      I really do hope he feels as empty and drepressed as he says he does! I know that that is nasty of me but he has put me through hell!

  6. Michelle says:

    My Narc Friend loved being propositioned by women, by his own admission, but would turn women down flat. He turned down a gorgeous blonde and when I saw him last, though he knew I was interested, made a big point of saying he had to go to bed early. Is it typical for a narc to like the attention but dislike the actual physical contact? Or to simply be contrary by turning women down as a matter of control?

  7. Nina says:

    The current narc bragged about his infidelities with his current IPPS, when we had just met. He said they were all in the past, and he couldn’t stop himself. I never understood why he felt the need to share this as if he was proud. Now it makes sense!!

  8. Superpoweremotion says:

    “However, in your world, on the whole, the act of a sexual union accords a greater connection between two people which means you yield more fuel and are more inclined to keep providing it as you seek more from the liaison.”

    Sexual union accords more than a ‘greater connection’ It accords each of the people in the act more than you think it accords. It actually accords both of you trading on every level, whether you want to or not, whether you are aware of it or not. Your conscious, unconscious, sub-conscious flows into the other. Women being primarily magnetic and men being primarily electric means women suck up all the chit the man denies and accordingly dumps out. She takes in all his garbage. Poor woman. This is one of the main reasons when women get in a ‘relationship’ with a man, they often gain weight, get bloated, get cranky, lose their sense of self. They have been dumped into. Very difficult to process this. Then she is reflecting back to the man the garbage he dumped and he doesnt like that does he? Nope. He blames her, she blames herself. I had an epiphany a couple of weeks ago. Yall gnarly abusers, creatures of unloving intent have been around dumping your chit everywhere, into everyone for so long, now what you get back flowing into you is your own garbage. Like the sewer is backing up. I love it, here have it, it is yours to begin with. It could accord you some long overdue so-called ‘fuel’. (Seeing that is your only word accorded for an entire host of realities) You say it is ‘us’ “seeking more from the liason” Aint you doing the same thing? You accord different semantics for the same thing. Only your intent is unloving and based on denial perpetuating guilt to accord yourself your power struggles, built to hide and deny your fear. Most of all all this charades and semantics is to deny the fear you have below it all. The rest of us actual manifested spirits are attempting to align with Loving Light. We have the same fear. It is ancient, not yet healed but when it is, I cannot wait to see what it will accord. It is ‘our world’ you got that right.

  9. Trocadero says:

    HG, which one of your books has the most of your real-life situations? I would like to buy this one at first. I love this kind of insights, like the one you are giving in this post, it somehow gives tissue to a bone of theory 🙂 Of course,if anybody else can answer the question,very much obliged 🙂

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Read the Confessions series and the alliteratively titled books. Also Chained and Fury.

      1. trocadero says:

        Thank you. Can’t wait 🙂

    2. MB says:

      Trocadero, I’ve found that most of his books have some of these stories sprinkled in. I haven’t read one yet that was 100% these type stories, though.

    3. Nina says:

      I am currently reading “Confessions of a Narcisisst” and it feels like reading HG’s inner thoughts, and how he responds to his therapists. His thoughts before he answers his therapists are very interesting, although I think some of it was written tongue in cheek.

  10. Sasha says:

    I wonder if a narcissist found a mate who agrees to let him sleep with others as long as he returns home to her each night. Wonder if that could work…He gets his fuel still.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Im going to say no. Eventually they need the negative fuel.

      1. windstorm says:

        I agree. I don’t think it’s possible to actually live with a narc and them not hit you up for negative fuel. It’s too tempting for one. It’s too hard for the smarter ones to resist playing with your emotions like a cat plays with a mouse. Also you will challenge them and wound them inadvertently and they will hurt you to feel better about themselves. A midranger can blow up over the simplest questions.

      2. Sasha says:

        I tend to agree with you NA. The narc I know (knew) did have this arrangement (verified) but still chose to ignore the “rules” and fall in “love” with the IPSS, sneak behind IPPS and take IPSS home to the marital bed, make future plans, etc. He still had to find a way to be calculated and sneaky I suppose.

        And yes…I was the IPSS…

        Thoroughly enjoyed reading this blog post!

    2. Mercy says:

      Sasha, i know from experience this doesn’t work. NA is right. They will push the boundaries until you snap.

    3. Anm says:

      Sasha, did you read HG blog about 5 reason narcissist devalue you? A Narcissist would start to devalue their IPPS for being too compliant. They contradict themselves too much to be happy with anything.

  11. SMH says:

    Hmmm. Interesting how you see this, HG. I’m going to get back on my meaningful sex bandwagon and say that I don’t think it was just a great fuel source for my MRN. If it had been, he would have been more casual/promiscuous. Mostly it was bravado.

    On several occasions, he mentioned women who had come on to him (not while he was with me) but it came across as insecure. Only once did I feel threatened but we’d been apart for awhile and he made a point of telling me there was ‘no sex’ with this other woman. I left (2nd or 3rd time) but 3 weeks later he hoovered me on a dating site!! Insane. He obviously wasn’t ‘dating’ anyone because 2 months later, we were back together.

    He had another IPSS before me but I do not know the details. I can guess, however, based on other things, that there wasn’t much to it. For instance, we were once discussing relationships and I asked when he’d ever had another one because he’d been married for decades. ‘In college,’ (Uni) he responded.

    Also, he once almost spent the night at mine but bailed at the last minute. A few months later, he begged me to spend the night with him (business trip). But I was too lazy to go (it was late night in a big city).

    Later, the subject came up again (can’t remember why – I must have asked him to spend the night) and he said he’d never spent the night with anyone but IPPS!!! I said, ‘but YOU asked me to spend the night with you.’ He didn’t deny it. I think I must be the only woman he had even contemplated spending a night with apart from IPPS.

    I actually found it all quite endearing.

    HG, question: many men cheat and there is a lot out there about different kinds of affairs. How does one tell a narc cheater from a run-of-the-mill cheater? Asking for a friend :).

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You consult with me.

      1. SMH says:

        Knew I was pushing my luck with the questions. It’s not important enough for a consult – I was just curious because I cannot understand how someone would cheat yet NOT be a narc.

        1. E. B. says:

          “I cannot understand how someone would cheat yet NOT be a narc.”
          There are Normals and Empaths who may have not developed a NPD but they still have some strong narcissistic traits. When it comes to cheating, selfishness is one of them.
          The Dirty Empath

          1. SMH says:

            I guess so, E.B. There are a lot of people on here who have cheated. I am almost pathologically monogamous (but for one half slip up many years ago) so it is hard for me to get my head around. I don’t think it’s because I am such an empath. It’s more that I get impatient with all the complexities that relationships bring, so monogamy is a form of selfishness for me.

          2. E. B. says:

            SMH, I used to think that women who cheat their partners or steal other women’s intimate partners were narcissists until I read about it on this blog.

            re: “monogamy is a form of selfishness for me.”
            I understand what you mean, although I do not share the same opinion on this. I think it is a question of trust. Once broken, it cannot be repaired.

            I had not noticed it before but there are actually two different articles (and not one) about this subject. Although the first four paragraphs are the same, these two articles are about two different narcissistic traits.

            The Dirty Empath – The Marriage Breaker or relationship breaker, is about empaths who are single and become involved with somebody who is already in an intimate relationship, even when they know about it.
            These Empaths have the narcissistic trait of “Selfishness”.

            The Dirty Empath – Infidelity is about empaths who are already in a relationship and cheat their partners.
            They have the narcissistic trait of “Infidelity”.

          3. SMH says:

            Ah, E.B. – thank you so so much for pointing this out!! I don’t feel so stupid now. I thought I was confused between DE and DLS but now I see that there are two sorts of DEs and I must have only read the second link long ago. Yesterday I only read the first link, thinking that was it. I’m going to boomark these in case I get attacked here again! Haha.

      2. nunya biz says:

        That is partly why I can’t say cheating is diagnostic.
        I think monogamy can be selfish, I also think sometimes narcissists can be monogamous and even asexual.
        And a slip up is cheating (I did once, no judgement here).

        I think the issue involved is the ability to genuinely hurt someone in a healthy relationship without remorse.
        In a fully honest two way connection with good communication I could not do it.

        A narcissist can deny sex (painfully) and very easily make it look like the other person did it, HG can attest to this and does, it isn’t simple to me.

        Plus I have had narc traits, otherwise pretty sure I’ve withered to a pool of nothing by now.

        I also have a strong opinion that the abi lity to grow and change as a person belongs to my and I am learning not to accept projected definitions or I fail.

        1. SMH says:

          Well said and I mostly agree, Nunya Biz. I am normally quite monogamous but it is more out of selfishness than altruism. I don’t want the complications of juggling more than one relationship, I don’t have the mental energy and I want room in my life for other things. In the episode I referred to, I was not trying to maintain two relationships at once. I was trying to break out of what I was in. It is the worst thing I ever did, I have a ton of remorse about it, and I cannot ever fix it.

          Idk but maybe when cheating is someone’s normal – when it is their modus operandi – it can be classed as narc behavior? When it is a one off, it isn’t? Lots of people have slipped up and are remorseful but a serial cheater is another animal altogether.

          Anyway, I am honestly exhausted by narc shenanigans and shocked by the narc ability to find so many ways to hurt people without remorse. The emptiness must be deep.

      3. nunya biz says:

        Yeah Smh I definitely think it can be narc behavior. And then there are mistakes. Partly I was thinking about someone I knew who fell in love with someone else and ended up leaving her abusive narc. Not ideal but eh none of my business to judge to begin with and she’s happy. I’m all for sanity whatever that is. I figure sometimes people can’t see the light for the trees and finding truth in life is a pretty high aim. I don’t know where people find their strength and easy labels scare me to death, which narcs evade deftly.

      4. nunya biz says:

        I think I was supposed to say “see the forest for the trees” and please forgive my typos today, the topics are interesting and I stop mid errand to type on my cell phone : )

    2. Lori says:


      Believe me you have no idea what he’s done with other women. He is likely not telling you the truth. I felt like I was the only ipss but im now seeing likely wasn’t I was just the one capturing his attention for an extended time. He only spends the night with ipps. Oh bulkshit that was designed to make you feel “not special”

      1. SMH says:

        Lori, Thank you for reading – I think you have made similar comments before but I stick to my belief. I know he had other IPSSs but not when he was with me. Maybe virtual, but not real, which is all I cared about. It was one of my demands for agreeing to an affair. Had I found out there was anyone else, the shit would have hit the fan. I don’t think he would have taken that risk. He also wasn’t manipulating me about spending the night. Doesn’t mean he hadn’t slept around a lot only that he had never spent the night with anyone but IPPS. He and IPPS were separated for awhile but he never replaced her – only a series of IPSSs…

      2. Lori says:

        All I know is these people are extreme risk takers. They live for the high of the risk and their need for it is almostr insatiable. I’m putting more and more things together everyday. I was merely can ipss so I was receiving all of the attention well u til I wasn’t. I’m now realizing there were many more on the shelf while I was being seduced and I believe he now has a new Can ipss and has also gone back to some shelf supply (not me) I’m further down the supply chain. I’ve just learned that for every one woman they tell you about there’s at least 2 others you don’t know about. Does it really matter if a married guy has 1 or 5 ? Not really. I just know these guys are super promiscuous

        1. SMH says:


          I’m sure MRN has a new one now too but when I escaped, I told him to find someone else. ‘I don’t respect how you live your life,’ I said, ‘but it’s not my life. I can’t make you happy because I am not the cause of your unhappiness. If you stay in your shit marriage, I am sure you will find someone else.’ And on and on. I was brutal, but controlled.

          We do have some agency. It is not all about the narc. They might think we are appliances and treat us as such, but that doesn’t mean we ARE appliances. I got something out of it too.

      3. nunya biz says:

        Hi, SuperXena thanks, I haven’t been able to get back on here until now. I was considering your question.
        I think it’s complicated.

        I think I meant both.
        I don’t always know what my boundaries are and I am very extremely not judgmental, sometimes to the point where it becomes difficult for me to make a decision. I think that may be why I am attracted to N’s, because they are either decisive or emotionally ambivalent in some ways? And if they become focused on me it navigates some of my indecisiveness. I don’t mean to say I am wishy-washy, there are plenty of areas where I know exactly what I’m doing and I come across as confident and assertive (but very kind and patient also). Also, I can return the feeling of decisiveness, so it’s not like I’m deferring, I can jump in and I feel autonomous. Most people are probably not aware of this trait with me.
        I think it comes to neuro-biology, genetics, preferred methods of processing information, temperament, childhood upbringing and environment, maturity/experience and also empathic tendencies. So some is changeable, some is lifelong and not at all.

        I understand what you say about the 3 core values, I am altering some expectations as guideposts for myself, so it can be helpful. I am also gearing away from automated thinking though at the same time because I find present moment focus has been a big key in being able to discern how I should react/respond in situations and gives me peace of mind and a more conscious ability to detach myself from situations I might react to. I can do both though and have to really. I also have to be really in tune with my motivations that lead to self-sabotage and sometimes underlying tendencies to manipulate situations, I’ve been able to distance from those too, they really just seem like more reactions- for example any inclination to pursue someone emotionally unavailable is some subconscious need to manipulate something to a more comfortable position.
        I consider all of it an ongoing process, but I feel great right now in most ways, so I’d consider it all good.

        1. SuperXena says:

          Hi nunya biz,

          Thank you for your answer. It took some time for me to get back to you. Better late than never. Pretty hectic for me nowadays.

          Very interesting thoughts you are advancing here that are of special interest to me.Thank you for sharing them with me. It is impressive the introspective work you have been doing.

          -“I am also gearing away from automated thinking ….”

          Interesting. Agreed. I have just learned that there is no such thing as “conscious awareness” . Our automatic emotions /reactions are though still triggered by the unconscious mind .

          Are you tackling these in learned automatic behaviours at the subconscious and unconscious level? If yes, how?

          It is impossible to stop these automatic reflexive emotions but knowing that the conscious mind processes thoughts, which are the primary trigger for emotions, are you aiming to control your thoughts and in turn your emotions?

          -“ …N’s, because they are either decisive or emotionally ambivalent in some ways”.

          I think that they are rather more like emotionally volatile ( not the same as ambivalent and definitely not decisive)

          -“ I think it comes to neuro-biology, genetics, preferred methods of processing information, temperament, childhood upbringing and environment, maturity/experience and also empathic tendencies.”

          Agreed.To what extent it is subject to be modified depends from person to person. I believe though that there is always some potential to modify some variables. Being harder if these subconscious patterns are deeply rooted and if they are connected to some trauma during childhood.

          Genetical factors are not subject to change as such but perhaps being susceptible to re-adaptation.

          -“ for example any inclination to pursue someone emotionally unavailable is some subconscious need to manipulate something to a more comfortable position.”

          Interesting approach. Good to know what is underlying at the subconscious level. Takes time to find out( and not always pleasant) but it sure brings peace of mind and makes you feel good! That is as well the undergoing process I am experiencing at the moment and it feels good.

    3. SuperXena says:

      Hello SMH,

      I believe it doesn’t really matter if a person falls into being a narcissist or not( or “just “ having strong narcissistic traits):

      A cheater is a (despicable) cheater…no matter what.
      Once a cheater always a cheater?

      1. nunya biz says:

        I strongly disagree with most black and white thinking. I’m almost incapable of black and white thinking though and sometimes envy people who can.

        1. SuperXena says:

          nunya biz

          I understand where you are coming from.
          Establishing strong personal boundaries is for me not the same as black and white thinking. Specially when loyalty is at stake. For me cheating is a transgression of a very important personal boundary : a betrayal of loyalty . There I draw the line.
          It’s a weak play by a weak character.

          To be loyal is a commitment that you make when you are in a relationship. (Unless of course you establish other rules from the beginning that apply to both and agree on that. )

          If you wish to end the relationship , do so. No excuses. Stepping out is disrespect. Cheating just to service your emotions is a poor example of a partner . If you are unhappy, leave.

          There are many other ways of “cheating” ( betrayal of loyalty in general) and not just a sexual affair.
          Establishing strong personal boundaries is not the same as white and black thinking.

      2. SMH says:

        Hi SuperXena! How are you? Funny but I was just responding to something about cheating on another post. I don’t cheat so I have no idea. But E.B. pointed out to me that Dirty Empaths do cheat. Maybe they can tell us.

        As for MRN, I assume he is a serial cheater partly because of what he told me, but that doesn’t mean he has more than one IPSS at a time. I believe HG writes about this – mid-ranger fuel matrixes are normally not as extensive as those of greaters. Doesn’t mean it’s not possible but in the case of my MRN, I don’t think so.

        1. SuperXena says:

          Hello SMH,

          I am fine thanks for asking !
          Well, yes I am sure that being unfaithful and/or disloyal is not exclusive to narcissists! That is the reason why I wrote that it doesn’t really matter if it is a narcissist or an empath or even a “normal” . I do personally have very strong beliefs about cheating and in general about being “disloyal “.
          Concerning your MRN : does it really matter if he had more than one? One more is one too many!
          If you care to see the answer I wrote to Nunyabiz. I express there more about my perspective and establishing strong personal boundaries.
          I hope all is well with you.

          1. SMH says:


            Glad you are well! I agree with what you wrote to Nunya Biz – I think most people would agree and try to live up to it. To me one of the worst parts of my entanglement with MRN was my occasional realization (the fog) that what he did to me was just the flip side of what he did to IPPS. When I was painted white, she was painted black, when she was painted white, I was painted black. This occurred even post escape. Now I can track the whole thing from moment to moment but back then I could not.

          2. SuperXena says:

            Hello SMH,
            Thank you.
            Remember, there is no logic whatsoever ( under our perspective) in what narcissists do.
            Best wishes

      3. Lori says:

        I am a dirty Empath. What would you like to know lol? I don’t know if I have this right but I thought even if you are single if you enter into an affair you are still a Dirty Empath maybe I have that wrong ?

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Good question about whether a single person entering into an affair is a classed as a dirty empath.

          What is your view on that?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            See Dirty Empath Marriage Breaker

          2. SMH says:

            I asked this a long time ago. A DE is an empath who cheats on her SO. Who is going to label a single person as a DE? Dirty with respect to whom?

          3. NarcAngel says:


            Haha. Well maybe to his wife for one.

          4. SMH says:

            NarcAngel, I did not take a vow to remain faithful to his wife. You seem to have the need to follow me around and judge me. I believe you were a true DE once, correct? And you want to paint me with the equivalent moral brush. Ain’t gonna happen. I refuse.

          5. NarcAngel says:

            I follow everyone so don’t take it personal. I don’t mean that you should
            be considered anything. I have no issue with affairs obviously. You asked to whom and I thought she might have had that opinion (not that you should or that you care) It was meant as a bit of levity but fell flat. I see how you may have read this in conjunction with my other comment about the leash and thought I was after you. That is not the case – they are unrelated and I apologize for my poorly timed humour in this case.

        2. SMH says:

          Lori, I’m pretty sure a DE is an attached empath. I was single when I met MRN. In any case, I did not know about IPPS for quite awhile. I did agree to an affair later on but it didn’t seem any different than when I did not know about IPPS. I don’t see it as my responsibility. In fact, I blame IPPS for allowing predator MRN off his leash.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Thats unfair SMH. You know from reading here that IPPS could not keep him on any leash anymore than you could demand of him that you be the only one and that he’d comply. I admit I laughed at that. That is denial. We are talking about a disordered person. A narcissist. You don’t dictate to them, and you wouldn’t have been interested in any man that could be kept on a leash, and yet you were interested in him..Even after you knew he had cheated. You couldn’t keep him on a leash either so its good you let him go, but saying she should have been able to keep him leashed is unfair.

          2. SMH says:

            NarcAngel please, do not preach to me or try to back me into a corner. He is a narcissist and therefore a predator. I did not know the extent of his disorder. I think you are trying to make me evil but I am not evil, nor do I feel guilty. I did the best I could with what was presented to me. And if I am responsible, then I did the right thing by telling her, but you didn’t like that either, as I recall. My oh my you are hard to please. You seem to have the highest moral standards of anyone. Nothing is grey to you. You know right from wrong. No one else does. I only wish I could be as perfect some day…

          3. NarcAngel says:

            I don’t think you’re evil. Not at all. I just thought it unfair that you have said several times that his IPPS should keep him on a leash. That sounds like something I would get blasted on here for saying. If any woman could keep her husband on a leash there would be no affairs. When I said you wouldn’t want a man who could be kept on a leash I was pointing to your strength in not wanting a pushover. None of us can keep a narcissist on a leash. In this case I was speaking up for those who you may have offended by suggesting that their husbands may not have cheated if they had kept them on a leash or if they had demanded he be only with them which is impossible with a narcissist. Don’t you think all women here wanted that?

          4. SMH says:


            You were right about the DE thing so I apologize. Lori was right too but it occurred to me that I did not have a problem responding to her – I even went back and read the article, as she suggested – while I did to you. Hmmm. I can admit when I am wrong, so I had to think about that for a minute.

            I’m going to be honest about this: it is not what you say but how you say it, and it has been this way from day one. I simply have no desire or, indeed, need, to interact with you. In fact, quite the opposite. My immediate reaction is therefore to push you away as a defensive move when you pop up in my space because I find you cold and smug, and – rightly or wrongly – I believe your goal is to provoke rather than to help. I don’t see the point, so I ask that you refrain from commenting on my posts.

            If we happen to meet that is fine, but there is really no need for you to go out of your way. While of course I am a Magnet SE :), I don’t think I cause such a ripple that you need to pile on. I am quiet enough that you can ignore me.

            Thanks so much for reading. No response is needed.

          5. NarcAngel says:

            Hi SMH
            Just got this comment now and have already responded to a couple of posts. Its hard to know what is posted first so I wanted you to know that I will honour your request and would have done so early had I got this. I really am not being smug and sometimes I say things that sound curt because I am trying to keep posts brief (for the most part) to accommodate moderation of more comments, but all that matters is that you feel that way and I respect your being direct.

        3. SuperXena says:

          Good point. Well yes, I believe that would classify you as being a Dirty Empath. ( I personally do not like the name “Dirty”).
          I see a difference though between:
          If you are single ( that is to say you are not cheating on your partner) and entering an affair or if you are in a relationship and cheating on your partner.
          If one adds moral value to this( differing from person to person) perhaps both cases are equally “morally incorrect”:
          on the first case due to the indirect damage you are causing to the partner of the person you are having an affair with on the second case due to the direct damage you are causing to your partner.
          Which one is ( more) morally incorrect depends on the moral codes of each person that differ from person to person.

      4. Lori says:


        I’m not passing judgement on anyone. I’m the last person that should be doing that. I do think whether you are the marriage breaker or the one who is married, it’s all cheating and not healthy and indicative of something that needs addressing emotionally. Now what that is who knows it’s likely different for everyone. Sometimes people are unconsciously afraid of intimacy so they unconsciously get involved with unavailable people. I know that while Codepebdents whole on the surface seem overly into intimacy, we seek our situations where it cannot pccur because we fear it

        I know for me true intimacy equates to boredom but that’s because somewhere deep in my psyche I’m afraid of it

        1. SMH says:

          Lori, I think the marriage breaking refers to the empath’s marriage, not to the narc’s. That is, a dirty empath is someone with an IPPS who has a narc streak and has an affair.

          I’m not excusing myself but eventually I acquiesced to an affair but I did not know when I got involved with him that he was unavailable because he lied and told me he was divorced. I also did not know his name because he lied about that too!! I figured out who he was three months after it all started and he did not disappear so I thought that was the only thing he lied about, and he had a plausible reason for doing it. By then I was in another country and we did not see each other for five months, though we were in touch constantly. When I returned, he came clean in his narc way about IPPS and I left. Later on, I did not feel responsible for his marriage. If I am indeed responsible, then I guess I did the right thing by telling IPPS four months after my escape. But I got a lot of flack on here for that too. Can’t win for losing!!

          But seriously – you are right. I did not want a real relationship and so I was fine as IPSS. I would probably have stayed his IPSS forever had he not been a narc and impossible to please. Indeed, I told him that I thought we’d be sneaking around between visits with our grandchildren in our golden years. That is what I wanted.

      5. Lori says:


        Have you read DEMB that is your story to a tee. Like I said I pass no moral judgement. Believe none of are Saints. For me I like seeing a label for why I have engaged in the things I have engaged in and how I got here.

        While I was aware of my Codepebdency before I got here, these pieces have helped me gain greater understanding of myself and my vulnerabilities. The labels is Dirty Empath and a Codependent don’t bother me at all

        1. SMH says:

          Lori, I did read it and I remember asking about if I was a DE and being confused about it. I will go back and read it again since HG refuses to answer the question. But in any case, I tend to agree more with SuperXena. It is a moral failing but not the equivalent of cheating on one’s own partner. I did not take a vow to be faithful to his IPPS.

        2. SMH says:


          I just went back and read DEMB. Some of it does apply to me so I guess I am a DE – I must have blanked and not wanted to admit it! Haha.

          Anyway, I had no interest in breaking up his marriage for my own benefit. When I found out about IPPS, I walked away – I didn’t even confront him. He then contacted me on a dating site a few weeks later. I walked away again but I was really freaked out. I was looking over my shoulder, locking the doors, etc. I did not realize he was creeping me online all over the place. I thought it was a one off.

          A few months later, he won. I left again, returned again etc (I left a lot). I made it clear that I did not want to be IPPS. She and I were too different, he and I were too different, they had been together for a long time, he needed the structure and stability of his family. That was all clear to me.

          If he had just left me alone after I escaped I wouldn’t have told IPPS but he did not and I told her. Why? I don’t remember now (nor do I really care, just to be clear) but I was livid and wanted to kill him. I have no idea what the fallout was because we have been NC since. Nor do I have any qualms about it. I would do it again in a heartbeat but better this time.

      6. nunya biz says:

        I did not say that in regards to boundaries or what is healthy behavior or what someone should tolerate. More that someone is always anything and my personal view is that circumstances can be understandable and less clear than I’d prefer (for someone else).
        I get that you don’t.

        1. SuperXena says:

          Thank you for clarifying nunya biz. I understand now that you were referring to my question:” once a cheater always a cheater?” That is exactly why I formulated it as a question to reflect on. Not as a statement.

        2. SuperXena says:

          Just adding nunya biz . You are right .My perspective has changed radically as a consequence of what I have learned here .Sometimes appearing to harsh. Under my perspective now: once someone betrays my trust, I do not give him/her the benefit of the doubt anymore.

      7. Lori says:

        I am glad this came up because in reading but that article it helped me circle back to schools of Empath and I see clearly that I am Codepebdent with elemebts of Super

        I have learned the more you read these and engage in discussion, the more certain elements become clearer to you

      8. Morning sun says:

        A black-and-white worldview would be lovely, yes. Is there a vending machine somewhere where I can buy one? Much obliged.

        As for once a cheater always a cheater, while that is often true, it also depends on the person and their circumstances. I cheated once and wouldn’t do it again, not out of some sense of guilt/shame/morality, but because I found the whole ‘going behind someone’s back’ exhausting and annoying. I don’t condemn it as such, everyone has their reasons, but it doesn’t do much for me.

      9. nunya biz says:

        I feel the same way about trust betrayal, superxena. I’m getting better at protecting my trust, it feels like being stabbed to be betrayed.
        My response about black and white was nothing personal and yeah related to the dirty empath questions because I have fear reactions about women being manipulated by narcs through guilt. Happens all the time I think.

        And also not being facetious, I wish I could be more concrete in my thought process sometimes (getting better) because it can be a source of stress for me and I have had it taken advantage of even though sometimes I think it’s a blessing.

        1. SuperXena says:

          No worries nunya biz. I understand you did not mean it to be personal. I see it merely as an exchange of perspectives . It shouldn’t be perceived as personal since we (bloggers) do not really know each other.

          “I wish I could be more concrete in my thought process sometimes …”
          I am not quite following you with this one. Do you mean concrete in you thought process as in assessing your personal boundaries or as in not being judgemental in general?

          When one is or has been in a relationship with a narcissist our own core values get blurred and even weakened. In order to move on and leave, a re-examination of what your essential core values are is required to reestablish and strengthen them again.

          I believe that our own core values ultimately dictate our own moral codes thereby tainting our perspectives.

          The golden rule for me now that I apply in regards relationships is the acknowledgment that if the person I am interacting with does not share with me my 3 top core values, the prognosis of establishing a meaningful relationship with him/her is very low or inexistent. So why even bother?
          Best wishes.

      10. nunya biz says:

        “When I said you wouldn’t want a man who could be kept on a leash I was pointing to your strength in not wanting a pushover. ”

        NA, fwiw, that’s how I took what you said.

        And my counter comments to the statements weren’t personal either, they were meant to broaden the discussion- and hopefully add to it because we are here to learn I have already learned from this particular conversation- because it seems like sometimes it gets focused on the individual but then generalized in the statements and my concern is for other people in totally different situations were they are dealing with a narc.

        Being empathic to my mind gives me the skill to extrapolate easily. And I think it’s important that people point out contradictions because that is where people drown in these entanglements. Narcs are made of contradictions. The ability to logically pick them apart so that you can understand the confusion is one key to remaining less affected. I have a girlfriend who lost a year of life to a narc boss, her health deteriorated and she lost her job.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Nunya Biz
          Thank you for being open about your views and understanding that I am not attacking or being intentionally provocative. I agree with you that it is beneficial to look at all angles. Sometimes it gets a little too close for comfort for some or triggers them and I understand. We are not all in the same place of comfort in investigating some avenues but that should not exclude everyone from having it or from giving their view. The blog would not be as popular or as effective if that were the case.

      11. Morning sun says:

        The “dirty” in DE is just a nod to social standards, is all. Society at large condemns women who engage in a sexual relationship with a married/partnered individual.

        Have you noticed how a man doing the same is rarely even a thing? This dates back to a very very old stereotype of women being the “fair sex”, of being those who are moral and pure and whose duty it is to tame the (natural and normal) beastliness of men.

        There’s no way around the “dirty” since HG chose it and as he is god of this cyberspace, he can call it “pinky-fluffy-bunny-tapioka empath” and we have to use it. The borders of our language are the borders of our world, and in this space, he is the head linguist.

        Please remember that HG is a narcissist and although he doesn’t get tons of fuel from us, there is some to get and as a true narcissist he can’t pass up on the opportunities. Thought fuel is a thing and the thought of causing every so-called DE a pang of guilt and shame that both the word ‘dirty’ and the role of ‘adulterer’ carry still accounts for something.

        I’m curious though, HG, how much of your sometimes sexist rhetoric is due to social convention/habitual way of speaking and how much is grounded in your beliefs? Do you hold men and women to different standards or is gender irrelevant in how you perceive others?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          The term applies to both men and women and therefore to seek to inject gender bias into the nomenclature is incorrect. I accept that females are labelled with greater stigma than men with regard to ‘playing around’ and cheating, but that is not the issue with regard to the concept of the dirty empath.

        2. SMH says:

          Great comment, Morning Sun. The word ‘dirty’ is indeed loaded. I think HG avoids sexist language for the most part – for me it is more as if he is speaking as society sees things – women as ‘weak,’ ‘dirty,’ ‘polluted’ etc (for instance, witness the way Jim Carey’s girlfriend speaks of her STDs – she internalizes her ‘dirtiness’). I also think that because most of the commenters here are female and empaths, we tend to take what HG writes as directed at us AS WOMEN when that might not be the case. We over-personalize it. I know I do. (The whole DE thing – yuk I feel dirty now.)

      12. nunya biz says:

        Thank you for that clarification of your perspective, HG. Like MS I have concerns about this, it has long been an issue in society and is not new. It has caused so much damage that becomes invisible due to brainwashing “norms”.

      13. Lori says:


        I don’t really look at this from a moral perspective at all. None of us are moral saints and I say don’t judge a cheater who was entangled by one of these people. They are masters at making you fall in love with them

        I look at this from a more factual perspective. What actually happened and why it may have happened. I mean I know why he does what he does but why did I do what I did? And yes I was a willful participant. That’s where the key to all of us this lies. These people come and expose something in us that needs addressing emotionally particularly if you have had more than one romantic encounter with one.

        1. SMH says:

          True, Lori. I do know why it happened.

      14. Lori says:

        THe folks that crack me up are the ones that wave the morality finger. I find they are usually the ones hiding some other shameful secret. They use situations in which they can say” see I didn’t do that I’m not as bad as them to relieve themselves from some other shame they are feeling”

        Smh what you did was morally wrong. What I did was morally wrong but at the end of the day most of us are doing something technically morally wrong everyday so folks need to get off their high horse about that cause I guarantee you most have some shameful event they wouldn’t want to be made public. I find most people that so this sort of thing are trying to prop up their self esteem in some manner or relieve some sort of shame they feel and need to go the im good you’re bad route

        Just my observation.

        Like I said real growth comes from finding why you made poor decisions not waving the good bad finger or trying to make someone where the shame coat

        1. SMH says:

          Morals are relative, Lori, and they are specific to one’s world view. We could argue it all day but to me it is a boring discussion, to be honest. I am much more interested in the brain, logic and emotions. That is why I am here with HG and not on some other site where I would be condemned before I even got started.

          1. Clarece says:

            Hi SMH,
            Thanks for sharing the Scary Spice article. That was a really insightful read and I applaud her bringing up the term gaslighting with examples from her relationship on how it was being done.
            She dealt with a lot of dehumanizing crap too, as did Jim Carey’s ex girlfriend.
            A possible difference I see is where both of their narc traits fall on the spectrum (in a healthy way) to combat the abuse. JC’s girlfriend seems so gentle and tender hearted. A deeply sensitive person. Her narcissism was probably next to nil. Mel B on the other hand, I can see having higher narc traits, but she found a greater who squashed her like a bug. Not that she deserved any of his nasty abuse at all. I think it just shows how the actual personal makeup of a person affects how they cope and get out of a relationship like this to survive.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Belafonte isn’t a greater

          3. NarcAngel says:

            Might the Mel B/Belafonte situation be a case of two narcissists colliding?

          4. HG Tudor says:

            It has the whiff of that NA, yes.

          5. SMH says:

            Lesser, HG? The violence…

            Clarece, Yes, it struck me too how different the responses were, though it sounds like Mel B hid a lot over many years. She sounds more like an SE and Jim Carey’s ex more like a CoD?

          6. Clarece says:

            Haha HG! You caught that. I didn’t mean Greater like you. I just meant he toppled her in their dynamic if it was possibly a case of 2 narcs colliding.

      15. Lori says:

        I think these types of threads where we focus on ourselves and not the Narc are awesome and helpful even its a bit uncomfortable. It’s interesting to see how someone may view our situation of our role whether accurate of innacurate it causes us to take another look at ourselves and see why we may have brought a toxic person into our lives.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I agree. It is just discussion and people can leave or take from it as they see fit, as you have pointed out previously. Sometimes growth comes from discomfort.

      16. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Clarece and SMH… it amazes me how many of us, from walks of all life, have been affected by narcissism. I remember seeing an interview years ago where Jenny McCarthy spoke of her relationship with JC. She referred to his dark side. If I recall correctly, she was referencing his condition as if he had bipolar disorder or another type of deep depression. She certainly expressed fond memories, though, relaying that when times were good, they were great!!! She was speaking in an upbeat manner, but I could tell that she seemed bewildered… and that his “dark side” got the best of her.

        Now we know why!

        1. Clarece says:

          Hi BKK! I was curious too how well Jenny McCarthy fared during her relationship with JC after reading how he treated the other ex.
          Jenny seems to have a stronger constitution which is why she was able to move on post breakup and eventually marry Donnie Wahlberg. Good for her.

      17. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        From all walks of life*
        I have idiom dyslexia.
        And SuperXena, you might have broken the record for the longest thread… had a long way to scroll to get to the top to make my correction. 😥 That’ll teach me to be more careful!

        1. SuperXena says:

          Ha,ha BurntKrispyKeen. Sorry for the inconvenience and thanks for letting me know about breaking records. I like to break records…I have recently gained awareness that I was conditioned to that among other things… Oops!
          Moving to another thread now…

      18. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Well, shoot… now that I have been able to delve into this thread further, I just had to make the journey back to the top to comment. Whew, that’s a long haul, but for better or worse…

        I too am dirty. Actually, I just got out of the shower, but I can’t deny that I have a dirty streak that I am unable to wash off.

        In all fairness, I did learn a lot about playing the victim from my narc, but the truth is – I was married when I first became friends with my narcissist and was still married once our relationship crossed the line. Ironically though, once I was intimate with my narcissist, I was not intimate with another. There I was… cheating on my husband with my narc, but denying my husband because I was trying to stay loyal to my narc… the man who ended up cheating on me at a level I don’t know was possible. I mean – I would think there’s only so much action a middle-aged dick can handle.

        But I thought that I was “the one” … because he told me (and after the Golden Period, sometimes he still showed me) so I simply didn’t desire the touch of another. I thought that I found my perfect match. Being pushed by my narcissist sure made it easy for all of the painful wounds from my husband’s betrayal to resurface, especially since they actually never healed.

        My husband had cheated on me with a co-worker during a point in our marriage when I thought we were at our happiest. I eventually heard from their co-workers the ways in which he was seduced by her, but when you’re on the hurting end… all you can think of is the betrayal. She might have been a seductress and their first encounter involved too much alcohol, but she didn’t rape him. He certainly made his choice.

        Though he did come to fully regret his decision, but as hard as we tried, we were never the same.
        But for my son, I wanted to provide him with the family he deserves, so I remained the loyal wife… until my narcissist came along.

        I have never, to my knowledge, involved myself intimately with a man who belonged to another, but I certainly cannot say that I have never cheated. Though it had only been on my now ex-husband… to cheat on one person is one too many. What I can now say is.. I will do my best to NEVER make that same mistake again. While the saying is true for many, I do not believe “once a cheater, always a cheater.”

        That IS the usual case, but it is not true for all. Though we all are at risk.

        As sore as this subject is for me, having experienced both sides, when I read Narc Angel’s reply indicating that the wife would find it “dirty”… I laughed out loud. Perhaps it is because she and I share the same sarcastic sense of humor, but I felt like I knew what NA meant… Of course the wife would see the other woman as dirty….but it was meant as a humorous revelation.

        Still, it is easy to not always know our intentions since print lacks tone. With that in mind, I also don’t like to referred to as dirty. But my empathetic nature assumes that HG means it as a sort of compliment… that it helps him find us relatable. 😉 Though I don’t appreciate the term as I try to live a reasonably moral life (note reasonably). I NEVER want to hurt anyone (except my narcissist).

        My poor-victim excuse is that I vulnerable when my narcissist came along. With his fine skills, he took advantage of that, but I must own that I am responsible for letting him.

        But most of us here have made decisions we regret. That’s exactly how we landed at school, eager to sign up for our needed Narc University lessons. And as long as we learn, grow and do better… it’s all good. Because as narcissistic as I have become, my empathic side sees goodness in all y’all… each of you…even the headmaster. 😚

        1. SMH says:

          BKK, Thanks for that thoughtful comment. Your situation sound really painful from all angles. I agree that we can all make mistakes and I don’t mind either way – dirty or not dirty.

          The only issue was that there are two articles about DEs – they start out the same but then they diverge. I read one ages ago and that definition of a DE stuck in my head, so I figured the dirty referred to the empath who was cheating on a partner. I did not ever read the other one because I must have thought it was the same article, so I did not know there were two different ones. That is all.

          I don’t know if once a cheater always a cheater is true or not but I do know that MRN once said to me when we were (mutually) ending it: I can only try to be the best person I can be going forward. Hmmm. Then a new round of online creeping started and then he tried to get me back into the FR, so it is understandable that I would think he would always cheat. Maybe that is a difference between narcs and empaths – both can cheat but for narcs cheating is a way of life whereas for empaths it is not.

        2. SuperXena says:

          Hello BurntKrispyKeen,

          Thank you for your answer. I appreciate your honesty , straightforwardness and your sense of humour.You go right to the point. You made me laugh with the “showering”.
          Imagine, if we could wash our “soul dirtiness “ by doing that. I suppose some would feel the need to stay under the shower 24-7!.
          That reminds me about the hypocrisy existing within some religions of the so called exoneration /absolution of one’s sins through confession (to a priest ). It is the religious “showering” of sins. I am and have always been against it.
          All this religious black and white thinking( good and evil), punishment and reward, sense of superiority and omnipotence of some religious figures makes me think a lot about narcissism.

          Ah! The word “dirty”….Should we start with defining what a dirty person is? We will never end up such a conversation….endlessly subjective.

          Besides: who is not ( at least a little bit) “dirty”? I believe we all have “brushstrokes “of dirtiness that come in different shapes, shades and colours.

          Once a cheater always a cheater?
          I agree with you: if you crossed the line once that does not necessarily mean that you will do it again when being in a new relationship.
          However, (under my perspective ) if my partner crosses the line once ,to my eyes, he will be seen as such : it will be very difficult for me to build up the trust and respect again. As you said , from your own experience, after that happened with your ex husband, it was very difficult to ”find” each other again.
          Your circumstances were different: he ( your ex husband) crossed the line first and hurt you . He “changed” the rules of (dis)loyalty so you really did not have the need ( obligation) to be loyal to him anymore. You chose then not to be and that does not make you a “bad “ person according to me.
          Best wishes!

      19. Morning sun says:

        HG, thank you very much for clarifying and reminding us that your writings apply to both genders, I appreciate it.

        SHM, I try to read HG’s texts both straight-up and ‘against the grain’. I have tremendous respect for HG and I highly value his input, that should be obvious by now. I just don’t forget that he is a narcissist, that this is cyberspace and we are a bunch of strangers interacting through our constructed cyber-personas. I keep my interpretation of his writings open to several meanings, and I refuse to think of him as simply a Byronic empath-savior hero (that would be way too boring for me). For me, his intrinsic value lies in all that he is and does – including the subtle manipulations, jabs etc.!

        I’ve written about this before – HG invites us to walk through a house of mirrors, but he’s not holding our hands. He may occasionally comment and remind us that we’re in a house of mirrors, and that there is only one way out of it. Also, he provides a safe(r) way for us to interact with “the beast” that we have sought in the narcs in our lives, together this time and armed with knowledge.

      20. BurntKrispyKeen says:

        Hi SMH… I can relate to what you expressed. And I’m thankful that you were able to decipher my post. Considering my typos and missing words, it was difficult to read. I was going to joke that I omitted key words just to save on space. But the truth is, once I get on a roll, I can’t seem to stop!

        Did you hear that fellows?

        Kidding. Just kidding. After that whirlwind of a mess I was in, I intentionally retreated from male interaction. While I’m starting to “talk to” some, I’ve been in this prolonged period of chosen abstinence. So please understand my condition. 😨

        I’ve been super busy with work. I just popped in here for a quick look… and there it was. First the hand and now this!
        I blame the image of male hairy legs for bringing out the frisky. It’s always the narcissist’s fault – ya know. 😏

        Which brings me back on point. I completely agree that the cheating is different from each perspective. Wrong is wrong, but I was still hurting and vulnerable from my (now ex) husband’s infidelity. My narcissist relentlessly pursued me, taking full advantage of how beaten down I had been from that betrayal. His super charming ways made me feel that I had been rescued from the pain.

        Pretty ironic, huh? Especially since my narcissist betrayed me in ways I didn’t even think was possible. And the pain he brought me… I’m still trying to reconcile.

        I now realize that was my lesson to learn, however. But you are right, SMH about the intentions. I was being “dirty” because I thought I was in love. He just loved my fuel. And hers. And hers. And that one over there…

  12. NarcAngel says:

    Everyone is The One, but equally No One.

    1. Mercy says:

      So very true NA.

    2. Lori says:

      Oh that’s good

  13. Andrea says:

    Would a narcissist brag about being promiscuous in their past? My ex gleefully used to tell me what a “slut” he used to be.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Yes, it is called triangulation.

      1. Andrea says:

        Thanks for the response. I googled so many things whilst we were together, trying to figure out his behaviour, from passive aggressiveness to jeckal and Hyde personality, to soon as I came across your writing it all made perfect sense. A huge revelation, thank you.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

  14. nunya biz says:

    I’ve always felt that sex is about sharing love and connection, such a beautiful thing to appreciate. Not every pair is meant to bond on all levels, but any joining and sharing is amazing and it has always seemed to me that one would recognize in another a more fated and intense connection by what they feel in their soul. Admittedly short-sighted that I didn’t realize that some people simply don’t have one.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      Nunya Biz
      I am not a narcissist but I have never related sex to love and connection. All that was demonstrated to me early was that sex was about dominance, degradation, control, and the releasing of pent up energy. I reasoned even as a child that what I felt for and offered up to my mother (what I thought was love ) seemed not able to measure up or compare to what he offered her, so sex must be more powerful than love. I have learned it can be fun, but feel no emotional connection to sex even though I have a soul. That was learned.

      1. Nunya Biz says:

        Thank you for saying NA, I understand. My personal view of “love” is probably far more abstract than comes across. I tend to view all energy and expression as love, it’s just how I work. I have also loved in an uncommitted fashion. And I’ve certainly “realeased” (happily!) without any traditional concept. I do try to see beyond the physical of every single person I look at and that adds a lot of depth to even brief experiences.

        I appreciate your view, the dominance aspects of sex are extremely exciting to me and offering submission feels most rewarding when it’s thorough, I feel I truly need that sometimes. I’ve probably got a LOT pent up myself right now and it might be coloring my opinion, but I desire pure soul connection at this point in my life, not just commitment. Also my cycle started today and I’m cranky. I’m holding back, really.

        1. Windstorm says:

          Nunya Biz
          “the dominance aspects of sex are extremely exciting to me and offering submission feels most rewarding when it’s thorough, I feel I truly need that sometimes.”

          I have just been sitting staring at this sentence in shock and horror.

          I realize a lot of women feel this way, but there is no way on earth I could ever understand it. There are no words. I guess I’ve spent my whole life trying to escape submission that the idea of wanting to experience it is just non-sensical to me.

          How can you be sure if you submit to someone else’s dominance that they won’t abuse you? How can you take that risk? How can you trust them not to be lying? It’s like how people agree to be handcuffed and restrained in sex. No one on earth could get me to do that voluntarily! Even if they held a gun on me, I’d charge the gun and take the bullet first.

          You must have a trust in human nature and a level of confidence far beyond my capabilities!

          1. saskia says:

            WS, nunya biz and WS, sorry for jumping into this conversation – I hope that’s ok. I cannot speak for anyone but myself here but I relate very much to what you have written with regards to the dominance aspect, nunya.

            It can serve as an arena where offering submission and choosing to surrender to another feels rewarding and indeed releasing – allowing oneself to give up control and deriving pleasure from it. It’s especially rewarding when one hardly ever lets go of control in many other areas of life – as a choice, it feels like a ‘controlled form of giving up control’ in an area that is clearly restricted and therefore, feels ‘safe’. I agree that it has a lot do with trust that within that area, the partner would never abuse or misuse the trust that is readily given and invested.

            I completely understand why people have so different perceptions and associations with all matters that are connected to intimacy and sex – it is a complex form of interpersonal relationship and each perception and preference has its own validity. I also relate to NA in that I don’t necessarily connect sex with love or emotional intimacy or with a deep emotional bond. I have never thought much about that before or if that makes me strongly narcissistic at least. That is not to say that I (would) never feel or have never felt a bond that goes far beyond the physical. I feel that for me, it has more to do with the fact that I connect the aspect of sharing, of opening up and developing emotional bonds with other aspects of intimate relationship that are equally rewarding.

      2. windstorm says:

        “All that was demonstrated to me early was that sex was about dominance, degradation, control, and the releasing of pent up energy.”

        I never made the “releasing of pent up energy” connection, but I can see it now in hindsight. My parents had separate bedrooms all my life and if they ever had sex, I was unaware. I grew up thinking sex was for the entrapment of a man into marriage and the creation of children and was shocked at Pretzel’s insistance of sex when we weren’t at all ready for children. I quickly realized that it was also for dominance, degradation and control like you said.

        I never equated anything with sex to be about love, either – hard to make that connection when you’re being dominated, degraded and controlled. Ha, ha!

        While I did eventually realize that sex could be fun, it was not possible to put into practice. I think that requires a partner who is willing to do things that you find pleasurable. Too many years of having my wishes denigrated, ridiculed or used against me stood in the way.

        I do have an emotional connection to sex, but unfortunately it’s probably a lot like Twilight’s emotional connection to being locked in the truck of a small car. I realized after I left my Pretzel that I could never have sex with anyone else. I have so many triggers they could set off, there’s no way i could enjoy it and I could very well freak out and harm them.

        Don’t understand your soul comment? We all have a soul and all empaths can love, but in my experience those are things to hide when having sex with a narc.

      3. nunya biz says:

        WS, thank you for your thoughts, truly meaningful. I was the one with the soul questioning and of course NA response is accurate regarding the soul. My feelings are related to some intense experiences I’m still processing along with some spiritual upheavals involved.

      4. nunya biz says:

        I am enjoying this conversation, glad to have it even though some emotional aspects for me.

        WS all that can be true I think.
        I have always had both deeply impulsive and conservative/protective aspects to my personality, maybe equally. The trust part is what I am looking for now. My feeling is to use my empathy and intuition to connect past typical communication and words. K pointed me toward the term “empathic resonance”. I do like physical submission but actually more lately looking toward psychological/emotional submission which I have immersed in briefly. For me to do completely I have to be able to explore my partners empathy also. That is one reason I am working toward understanding here on this blog, to understand the difference. I also think when balanced properly the vulnerability and intimacy lies equally on both sides.
        I know what you mean, I have massive resistance to being controlled with bad or shallow, dismissive intention, it seems paradoxical, I was wondering about it recently myself

        Will reply further and to SPE in a bit.

      5. Anm says:

        NA, that is a very interesting perspective

      6. nunya biz says:


        “I also relate to NA in that I don’t necessarily connect sex with love or emotional intimacy or with a deep emotional bond. I have never thought much about that before or if that makes me strongly narcissistic at least. I feel that for me, it has more to do with the fact that I connect the aspect of sharing, of opening up and developing emotional bonds with other aspects of intimate relationship that are equally rewarding.”

        This makes sense to me. When I started reading the blog I questioned myself a lot about narcissism. There are ways I have been selfish. What I ended up thinking is that there was still for me (and still is) some compartmentalization within me regarding different life facets. I’ve pondered it and what I think is that…
        well someone on here, I forget who on another post, talked about not being a vegetarian even though they love animals.

        So I think it’s like that for me.
        We cannot allow our full empathy into all areas, it would actually be literally unsafe and non-functional. And also I’ve gone through a learning curve anyway as far as what to care about and how, sometimes in my life I felt separate from someone else’s suffering because I was immature. And then there is personal choice about when not to, which doesn’t make a person a narcissist.

        So I was wondering about some of my emotional repression, even though I was aware I feel things very intensely and deeply, and some of my anger and past selfish behaviors. I know that I am very empathic and always have been. I also know that I was raised by narcissistic people and had terrible examples of how to emotionally connect and communicate as a feeling person. I spent my teen years suffering terrible anxiety attacks in public and feeling completely lost.
        The thing that has been most wonderful and liberating about reading HG is I feel it has allowed me to feel more comfortable with my feelings and to allow them to be less protected in my life because I can discern better, with much more accuracy and finer detail, where to allow more intimacy and vulnerability. I can actually share more emotion. The spiritual exploration I’ve done supports the connection aspect.
        Paradoxically, knowing about narcissism lets me let my guard down more frequently because I can be more confident. That is the most rewarding thing for me and such a huge relief. I very easily experience emotional contagion and I don’t want to stifle that.

        Besides, I’ve always taken responsibility for negative fallout in my life, if shit gets really fucked up because I’m wrong I can handle it reasonably I figure. Better than not risking. Rather not though.

    2. Superpoweremotion says:

      Sex might be about “sharing love and connection” In this world is often sadly and dangerously about power struggle. We all, all of us have been heavily damaged, none of us arrived all healed and ready to go.This is a process which has not gone anywhere since the beginning of creation. As we do finally heal, it will be easier to find connection and love, acceptance and self love.

      1. nunya biz says:

        That is a nice way to put things, SPE. Healing is a good focus.

  15. Presque Vu says:

    Fuel equates to insecurity, that desperate need at all costs.
    Why don’t you just remain single?
    I know you want to have your cake and eat it.

    What if your significant other slept around too? If you have an open relationship none of this matters. It would seem you are in an open relationship where as your partner thinks it’s monogamous. That’s the problem.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      If they slept around? Why on earth would they ever do that?

      1. Presque Vu says:

        Are you scared of an open relationship?
        In a monogamous relationship she wouldn’t unless perhaps a dirty empath.

        This question you ask is exactly our response to why you cheat!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No because there is no need for that to happen.

          1. windstorm says:

            What about when she is in devaluation, HG? When you’re sleeping in the spare room, or staying in your bolt hole all hours? I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that the sex is fantastic when you condescend to provide it, but what about all the other times?

          2. windstorm says:

            Never mind answering my earlier comment, HG. I understand why they wouldn’t want to look elsewhere for sex. No matter how badly you treat them or withhold intimacy, they are caught up in the illusion of the golden period. They are so focused on fixing the relationship, they have no desire to look elsewhere. And once this illusion begins to wear off, then you discard and replace them.

      2. Empath says:

        OMG H.G. 😄

      3. nunya biz says:

        That’s what drives me crazy about it, because by the end they are thoroughly dismantled. If the relationship were open (honest), they’d have a shot at being reasonably happy. I think my ultimate preference for relationships is monogamy (where it is dedicated), but in these types of situations where someone cares for someone and is insanely put in a position where they are being manipulated into being tortured it doesn’t make sense.

        I try to remember we all have our life lessons and HG represents a difficult one.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          We have to remember that it makes complete sense to them but not to us. They don’t do happy so are not looking for ways to be happy – that is a goal for us and what makes sense to us. They look to be powered which is entirely different. Both sides cannot understand why the other has the goal or drive that they do but both think their way is the right and only way. I think it’s not until we can fully accept that, that the questioning about them and their behaviours lessen (except in the case of a general fascination about the subject at large) and the focus comes back to our behaviours, which is all that is within our span of control.

          1. E. B. says:

            Well put, NA.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Hi E.B

            Thank you and nice to see you commenting.

      4. nunya biz says:

        And I’m wary of men who are good in bed in ways that are not based on emotional connection.

      5. nunya biz says:

        NA, totally agree.

      6. nunya biz says:

        I don’t know if it’s something about the decision making process that’s fascinating? The way of engaging attention probably?
        What is it?
        I had this concept in my mind for awhile that “focus” is “love”. I don’t know how to explore that and break it apart. And I don’t even mean abusive focus, either, golden period and all.
        Watching someone try to bounce back from a devalue at this point is really disconcerting, but I can understand it. It depends on the situation? Because in some cases maybe the person doesn’t see any significant alternatives, maybe doesn’t know what is happening, maybe the consequences aren’t so bad if it’s not an IPPS or IPSS situation, maybe even the narcissist can have a point and the person can fall into a vortex of self-questioning. Definitely seems an issue of external focus instead of internal.

        I know my ability to objectively disengage at this point, from things that seem too contradictory or not good for me, is improved. But my initial feeling of being magnetized, enthralled, aroused, etc,.. it’s very frustrating. I don’t understand that.

        I keep trying to remember that ultimately the thing that trumps all for that person is something unrelated to what I understand as emotional care and the underlying maneuvering will only end in a power play if I misstep in particular ways (that my stubborn streak seems to careen toward inevitably). MY BEHAVIOR has to be more centered toward self preservation and what is best for me, I can take my positives and leave the rest, but I can really see how anyone can get tangled in this mess of not understanding and reacting. Without reading this stuff I’d be a puddle sometimes. Logic, logic, logic. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.

        My new mantra:
        I can handle anything.


    2. Caroline R says:

      Hi Presque Vu,
      I hope things are going well for you.
      I saw Haddaway’s ‘What is love?’ video the other day, classic 1990’s. It made me laugh as his cruel object of desire looks coldly to camera and then sinks her vampiric teeth into his neck.
      I thought you’d like it too.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Top choooooooonnnnn !

      2. Caroline R says:

        Glad you liked my suggestion.

      3. Caroline R says:

        Is that your ringtone by any chance? ” Baby don’t hurt me, no more”

    3. Original Overthinker says:

      nunya biz “And I’m wary of men who are good in bed in ways that are not based on emotional connection”

      If I only knew!!! Sex would be my addiction!! Xx

      1. nunya biz says:

        Double O, Ha, it’s a good one.

  16. trocadero says:

    One of the first red flags was when he said at the early stage of seduction ” I think I’m gonna marry at least twice. I fancy women too much” . When I called him out on it later, he was saying ” but no, when I’m in love, I am completely faithful” ?!? Like, beg your pardon? Are you even aware of the nonsense coming out of your mouth??

  17. Sarah says:

    Dear HG,

    1. In the case of an IPPS the N targets an empath. For a shorter promiscuous conquest does it matter?
    2. Is it typical to keep the coterie informed with regard to your indiscretions or would that ruin the fascade?
    3. Does your behaviour toward the IPPS change following an episode of promiscuous behaviour? If yes, how so?

    Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. Not as much, but an empath would always be preferred for the reasons set out in ‘Sitting Target’
      2. Not typical, it is more likely something that is done with certain Lieutenants.
      3. The individual is in devaluation when promiscuity is occurring.

      1. Sarah says:

        Thanks HG – yes, read and very much enjoyed Sitting Target.

        I have ‘Loved and Loathed’ on the kindle at the moment. Your books are the only thing that get me through an hour on the stairmaster or treadmill. I am glad you have written so many!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you, I trust you have/will leave reviews. There are more books to come and many will be available as audio in the not too distant future.

          1. MB says:

            Audio books! Please take my $$$ HG!

      2. nunya biz says:

        Reminds me to leave reviews also.

      3. Sarah says:

        HG – I apologise.

        I have now read and revelled in 27 of your books and I haven’t left a single review on paper. I talk about your books frequently in the real world, however I agree, there is more I can do!

        It was remiss of me, but thank you for pointing it out as I will now happily undertake to review all 27 previously read books as well as new books moving forward.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I am obliged.

  18. Leslie says:

    So your double standard doesn’t apply here?

    Girlfriend can bring someone home to play with?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      For me to play with, of course.

  19. RG says:

    Funny, before waking up and reading this I comforted myself with ‘he will always cheat, with her, with me or with anyone else’ I wake up most mornings in a panic attack and have to remind myself to deep breath and that one day things will be better. That I won’t crave him like a drug. It’s getting close to the time period of his stonewalling to come to an end so I feel more panicked fearing that I will cave to his words. Hopefully this time he won’t hoover. His stonewalling time periods have become longer – I believe he is working more and more sources for fuel knowing that I have wised up to him. I’m no longer worth the energy of the fuel he received. I started off working out that I was a DLS then i think I may have become the SIPSS now I believe I am nothing.
    I hate him. I know this is fuel in itself. But I cannot wait for the day I feel physically sick at the thought of him ever having touched my body.

    1. Empath says:

      Me too RG,

      I feel absolutely gross that I let this man lay on hand on me after all I learned about his prolific promiscuity. I am trying to purge every single thing in my house that he touched or ever gave to me, which was a lot. I plan to paint and rearrange my furniture and cleanse that psycho and his malignant essence completely out of my home, just as I did with my life. I am filled with tremendous gratitude I avoided S.T.I.s as well, every day I am grateful for that. God knows where that man had been, I was nauseated and disgusted by what I learned… and I know that was likely only the tip of the iceberg. Gag. Just gag. I do not know how I will ever let another man touch me.

      1. RG says:

        I want to get to that place – being completely repulsed by him, sadly I’m still mourning the illusion.
        And like clock work I was unblocked yesterday just as I predicted- text book, to the t, Narc consistency!!
        I’m battling my weakness I WILL NOT GIVE IN. He has had control for a year now.
        I deserve more, we all do xx

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I think it will help immensely and put you on the right path to stop checking. Baby steps.

      2. Caroline R says:

        You do deserve better! Quite right.
        Stay strong. Half day by half day works very well. It’s as much as we can manage sometimes.

      3. Caroline R says:

        I understand your feelings of revulsion. I have times when the gag reflex kicks in, and ugh!… I have to breathe through it.
        Your cognitive dissonance must be jarring as you try to assimilate the truth. Like a hit to the head. I wish I could fast-track that part of the process of healing for you.

        1. RG says:

          Thank you Caroline R x I’m keeping a solid barrier up against him. I’m determined to see myself through to the other side. At the times I feel disdain for my weakness I promptly remind myself that I’d much rather be someone with a heart and soul, born to love and trust rather than consume, chew and spit out souls with no regard.
          Looking forward to the day I am indifferent to his being. Love and strength to all healing from emotional rape.

  20. Empath says:

    I was wondering how the risk of S.T.I.s does not inhibit this behavior, especially as a greater I would be surprised that this is not a concern? That is one of the biggest reasons I was so furious about my own sociopath’s infidelity…the exposure to all these other people he was cheating on me with women and men (which I never would have guessed). Another good reason not to become involved or stay involved with a sociopath. Is that too undignified of a question to keep me from asking it?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Arrogance and listerine.

      1. MB says:

        HG, a question came to me overnight after reading this PB article. If you WERE confirmed HIV positive, or herpes, (Something listerine wont cure.). Would you continue having unprotected sex with unassuming victims?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I wouldn’t have those in the first place.

      2. Empath says:

        Although I personally would like to kick your ass on behalf of all of your victims, I do appreciate your wit.

        Damn you Tudor.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Ha ha, you’d be floored before you even had a chance to land a blow, but thank you for the compliment nevertheless.

          1. MB says:

            HG, “you’d be floored before you had a chance to land a blow”. Sounds a bit violent. Do you know jujitsu?

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Does he play for Napoli!?

          3. MB says:

            I realized when I was in the shower that I should had phrased that differently. I’m catching on to you Mr. Tudor! My inquiry should be, do you practice martial arts, Sir?

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Not now.

          5. MB says:

            HG, I took your comment about being floored before landing a blow to be about your ability to put a person in a hold and submit them. (As opposed to striking them.) That was the basis of my line of questioning.

      3. Empath says:

        “I wouldn’t have those in the first place.”
        That’s what they all say…until the lab proves differently!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Except is doesn’t

          1. Empath says:


            (May have put that comment in the wrong place initially)

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Never will

    2. Empath says:


    3. mommypino says:

      Empath, I was just reminded by your question about Jim Carey and his ex girlfriend who committed suicide. I don’t know if he’s a narc but the transcript of the text messages between him and her would look like she was being devalued. It sounds like she got genital herpes from him and he denied it at first when she asked about what was going on with her and he said it was just from their rough sex and he was discouraging her from going to the doctor. Also, based on how he described her, it sounds like she was an empath, “a truly kind and delicate Irish flower, too sensitive for this soil, to whom loving and being loved was all that sparkled.”

      1. 2SF says:

        “I was promised Jekyll and instead I got Hyde. Because I love you I would have stuck out Hyde all year and done everything he wanted to be with Jekyll for 5 of those but you threw me away when you absorbed anything worthwhile that was left of me. – Cathriona

        Jim Carey is THE prototype Narcissist, He is a professional gaslighter. He deserves nothing less than hell for the rest of his live, for causing Cathriona to commit suicide. He is evil personified.
        Just damn the sick twisted bastard!

        1. Clarece says:

          2SF, yes to your sentiments on Jim Carey.
          There is so much weight in those words from his ex girlfriend. What she endured from him and how he broke her spirit and well being.

      2. Clarece says:

        Hi Mommypino,
        That article was crushing to read about Jim Carey’s ex-girlfriend. That poor Angel and what she endured. What she wrote in her experience with him could pass for one of HG’s Letters to the Narc Series. She called it right out saying he displayed the Jekyll and Hyde persona and would have endured the bad side if he just displayed an ounce of the other. I’m sure he salami sliced slowly with all the vices (cocaine, prostitutes, etc). It probably at the time seemed like he was thrilling and taking her out of her comfort zone and getting her to be sexually adventurous. It’s always that way, until it’s not. She was probably triangulated to be in threesomes. Of course that’s going to break a person down.
        He also displayed (by her account) the complete lack of accountability and compassion at passing Herpes to her. You can tell by how she wrote, that his dismissiveness at causing that for her created such a trauma and source of shame towards her body and it wasn’t her fault. It’s a lot to take in for a 30 year old dating a celebrity and trusting his famous “image” that he would do what is right behind closed doors.
        She is most definitely one of us here. Her private thoughts in that letter are all statements we have all made.
        He is a walking piece of shit, human garbage. I will never watch anything he is in ever again.
        Thanks for sharing that article.

        1. MB says:

          Clarece, I agree with what you’ve expressed. It made me sick to see what she wrote too. I believe her account of events. He could only say he didn’t give her STIs, yet he paid her an undisclosed amount to keep it quiet. Anybody (but him) can see he’s lying. She was a beautiful girl and he a celebrity, but this drives the message home that none of that matters. Fuel is the rule. I don’t like JCs style of slap stick type comedy anyway. I will say however, that if we swear off watching anything with a narcissist starring, we wouldn’t have many choices for entertainment and that is sad too.

          1. Lorelei says:

            MB this is an old post that K directed me to by showing me how she searches for things. I read about arrogance and listerine, which were her key words for this search. I had missed this discussion about Jim Carey. I’m not too sure how easily you can view your old comment, but I had heard he had a girlfriend commit suicide but this prompted me to read more of the nonsense where he blamed her for the STI, he paid for it “just because” and blamed her for feeling guilty for taking his money.. Amazing. What a dick. Honestly, an STI happens to anyone that has sex and gets bit unfortunately. No one is impervious to infection. I am really grateful I have never been in that position but could have been. I have had sex with a few aliens that were not saints. (I am a saint so don’t forget this..) Anyway–this is an interesting thread and actually points back to the test that HG put out a few days ago with the answers he provided. The types of comments different narcissists make are illustrative of Jim Carey’s comments about this matter from what I read online. I mentioned having trouble at times distinguishing empaths from type A middle mids. There may be some substantial value in paying attention to the brand of comments made as illustrated in the provided material. It is just so foreign in some ways (still) how they operate so nonchalantly and flutter around thinking they are good people. I am sure Jim Carey honestly believes his own bullshit. That is incredible.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed he does believe his own bullshit.

          3. theletterafterj says:

            If you ever want to find this thread again, you can Google either Jim Carey or listerine and arrogance. Easy-peasy!

          4. Lorelei says:

            K—Jim Carey makes me ill after reading all that. I have a friend who modeled with his prior girlfriend in the playboy days. I heard she was very nice but who knows if McCarthy was an empath or narc. Really. That is such a somatic and flamboyant environment and I’m not sure if she was also a victim or if it was a narc/narc collision. My friend could easily be mistaken for a narcissist but she is very fragile actually as an empath.

          5. K says:

            The abuse that Cathriona White suffered and her suicide is heartbreaking. JC’s behavior was reprehensible (of course he didn’t do anything wrong from his POV). Education is paramount if we want to prevent a repeat of this scenario.

          6. Lorelei says:

            Correct K, and it’s a good lesson in narcissism.

      3. mommypino says:

        Clarece, I feel exactly the same way as you do. I used to like him and actually thought that he is an idealist. I had so many movies of him but I sent it to Goodwill after I have read about this.

        I have read about this before I knew about narcissism but after seeing the screenshots of their text exchanges I could not believe how cruel he was to her with his dismissing her health and calling her names and saying that she had mental issues. I saw this from Daily Mail and I remember being so disappointed with the reactions of a lot of readers saying it’s her fault because she’s the one who decided to kill herself just because she got herpes. First of all, it’s not just genital herpes, genital herpes is not curable (from what I heard, I could be wrong) and she is now forever changed with having to take medicines to manage it and her ability to have her own kids (which she said was her dream) was decreased. Also what adds to it was his lack of caring. I think that’s probably what hurts the most, she trusted and loved her, he gave it to her, and he doesn’t even care.

        She was so beautiful. I looked at her pictures and she really seemed like a sweet and beautiful person. I wish she saw this blog before all of that happened. I’m sad that this world lost her.

        1. Clarece says:

          I completely echo those sentiments Mommypino. I’m sure Jim Carey’s ex felt so dehumanized and tarnished contracting herpes from him. the permanent, physical imprint on top of all the emotional damage. It was probably too overwhelming to cope on believing that it can be managed with meds, can go dormant with vigilant care to your health and you can still have kids. (Heard all about this from a former Narc boss’s 3rd wife at a trade show over drinks). Layer that on top of his gaslighting and insults, he demolished all of her dreams.
          I was never a huge fan of his. I never owned any movies with Jim Carey but I appreciated some of his better movies. I will never lay eyes on him on a screen again. I wish she found this blog too.
          And somehow, Carey is still walking around completely carefree and crying victim of extortion by her family? How about his herpes infected dick that he’s been throwing every which way in the wind.
          He’s right up there with Harvey Weinstein to me on this. Revolting!

      4. mommypino says:

        Clarece, I grew up with his movies. I used to have a crush on him actually. To think that he’s a narcissist is confusing for me because he seemed so kind in the interviews when I was in high school. It’s just so horrible what he did. She was indeed an Angel. She had such kind eyes. But in some of the pictures of them together her eyes seem to show sadness. It’s so sad when narcissists suck up the inner light that you always had.

        1. Clarece says:

          Hi MommyPino!
          Jim Carey knows how to sell himself. What works. What his audience wants to see him portray as his real life “persona” so they keep seeing his movies. Think of all the pain we here experienced and comment frequently and agree with HG’s articles when he says no one else sees their vicious, cruel side behind closed doors. It’s always they are seen as so charismatic and charming, funny, generous, pillars in the community. I can’t imagine that private pain publicized for this poor girl on top of that because of his “celebrity” and fans all over the world who believe he is who he portrays in his movies. She truly had to have been so very isolated and thinking who would ever believe her over the famous Jim Carey? So much stacked against her with her not knowing what she was dealing with.
          It’s like Matt Lauer from the Today Show. This week marked the one year anniversary from NBC letting him go from all the sexual allegations that came out. Apparently, he’s not doing great. Ha! Imagine that. He’s living like a recluse at his house in the Hamptons and it’s reported he has nothing to do and tons of “time on his hands” and not handling it well. That man thought he was a God with his little magic button under his desk to lock his office door when he wanted to fool around with women. All this stress is aging him rapidly and he is very much alone.

      5. ava101 says:

        Not so sure about that all … but how can I know, and can’t make guesses at a dead person how/what she was or her ex-relationship.

        The ex-husband though — sooo fake, he is certainly looking to take advantage. Just my personal impression, don’t know him, can’t know what any of them said, wrote, etc. … just, that he _seems_ fake to me, instead of letting there be peace.

        But really 10x more drama than necessary. …. 🙁

      6. ava101 says:

        Just want to add: how can I know what else was shown or not shown in regard to regret, empathy, etc., by text messages. Maybe I am too messed up, but they didn’t strike me as being particularly heartless … OMG if you could have seen my exchanges ….

      7. mommypino says:

        Clarece, you’re totally right. It’s just that now that I’m so aware of narcissism from this blog and other books (I’m reading about codependency and covert narcicism to find out if I’m not either of them since I was raised by a matrinarc), it just dawned on me when I saw Empath’s question about STD that Jim Carrey might be a narc. At the time that I have read the news I just thought that he was horrible. It shocks me a little bit to realize hat if he is a narc now, it means that he has always been a narc even then many years ago when I thought that he was really cool. But you are so right about the facade and their charisma. I bet Jim Carrey is a mid-ranger. And Matt Lauer is probably a narc too or a sex addict at least.

      8. mommypino says:

        Clarece, I was just thinking about what you said about everything stacked up against that girl and her isolation. It breaks my heart.

        1. Clarece says:

          Can you imagine being Jim Carey’s ex and having lost all hope, feeling completely annihilated as a person, love rejected and trying to even fathom what it would be like to try meeting someone new? He’s famous and loved. She was a young, unknown, private person. Anyone could Google her and learn her backstory and his version of things including contracting herpes. Before she could ever feel trust building to share on her own terms. Truly awful on so many levels. She probably felt so doomed that anyone would want to accept her and learn her story after this.

          1. SMH says:

            And here is another one – a celebrity herself. Really, this has got to stop. HG, I have to wonder whether you are barking up the wrong tree. It is like blaming the rape victim instead of the rapist. We have to come up with ways for you to reach (especially) men. I know it’s sort of a losing proposition since part of this disorder is the unwillingness/ inability to see it. Still, I despair…


          2. HG Tudor says:

            I’d exercise caution with this case

          3. SMH says:

            Hmmm. Really? Do you think she is lying, HG? What went on? Interested in the dynamic. By the way, MM seems to suddenly be on the outs. Guess you were right about her.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            There is more to this than meets the eye.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Interesting that she stated Carrey had “absorbed” anything worthwhike left of her.

      2. mommypino says:

        NA, it is. The things that she said made me feel that she had lost herself in that relationship. She had so much pain.

      3. RG says:

        Definitely a Narc: Empath entanglement 😢

      4. Lori says:

        That’s what they do. They take all of the positive features of your personality and claim them as their own then dump all of dark parts of theirs and assign them to you. There’s a name for this process but I forgot what it is They choose you not only bevause they know they can manipulate you but for certain qualities that you have that they are envious of and want for themselves. After the return of Narc 1 he literally turned into me. His entire lifestyle everything. He completely mimicry who I am. I felt as if he stole “me” he stole my personality for himself

      5. ava101 says:

        Yes, it is interesting, because: which personality type is most afraid of that?
        Because, no matter how much the ex-narc had destroyed in me, I had always the comfort that is one core part of me that he never could touch.

        Anyone else, who might be interested:
        Just for the record, about narc behaviour – narcs and STDs in/and my experience:
        – I had Chlamydia at one point, and absolutely no idea how I could have gotten them – or when. As I didn’t know about the “when”, I _might_ even have passed it on before they were treated … unknowingly.
        – One exlover of mine days after sex (several dates): “By the way, I had genital herpes while living in New York, but it was treated, should be ok now”. We used condoms of course, but I wasn’t so happy that he told me afterwards …. However, didn’t contract that.
        I _believe_ he was some kind of narc.
        I don’t know about the difference between USA and Europe, of how high the percentage is of people having it.
        – Ex-narc-like lover absolutely always used condoms, and never kissed me anywhere, so … actually pretty safe. Same goes for ex picture book sadist narc.
        – The ex-narc: I had mentioned a long time ago, he is a cerebral narc who hates sex. So: before we had sex, he insisted, actually forced me, to take any tests possible. I managed to make him do the same, including a chlamydia test for men, which is a bit … uncomfortable and painful I’ve been told (harhar); but: he never bothered to get the results! He made such a fuss about it all, it was really horrible. (I didn’t have anything, incl. herpes from the guy mentioned above …). In hindsight, he must have enjoyed my reactions and fear, and he kind of prolonged the phase where he didn’t have to have sex, so to speak.
        – ….

        About the morning after pill, a question …. when he asked the next day: when he thinks she is on the pill but STILL thinks it worth mentioning that it was a rough night … wouldn’t this imply that he usually did use protection? It would be a different matter to me, if he hadn’t thought she was on the pill, then it would be not-to-nice to ask AFTERWARDS. But in this case, this makes me wonder about it all. Esp. why he would ask then.
        And I have had MUCH worse, I think that the brother is using it all to make his case.

        1. Empath says:

          Hey AVA101,

          Regarding STDs (or STIs as it is called now), there is a molecular test for Chlamydia that requires only urine and is pretty much standard of care in the U.S., so a urethral swab is no longer required (regarding the male pain aspect of it). I mainly brought STI’s up because I did not see it mentioned in my reading of this blog and the exposure was the thing I was MOST furious about once I realized what I was involved with (for over 5 years), especially due to my profession. I was very fortunate indeed that I tested out okay but I was petrified once I learned he had not only multiple partners, but also both sexes, neither of which I would have ever suspected.

          Herpes, HPV and HIV are all incurable STI’s, although all are treatable. HIV screening can be false negative for 6 to 8 weeks post exposure because the test is for presence of antibodies-which your body doesn’t produce to a detectable level for at least that amount of time. I work in a highly educated area and still see ALL three of those more often than you would think. We mostly see Chlamydia, Gonorrhea, and now Syphilis is making a come back as well, but these are curable.

          Not that I wanted to make a public service announcement, but this risk is something I wanted to mention- because dear readers, if you have been involved with a Narcissist, you need to get tested and it is another dosage of COLD HARD LOGIC as H.G. says, to get the hell out and STAY OUT. For your physical AND mental health! They may not all have a STI (clearly some are in denial that it could “ever” happen to them) but they sure as hell wouldn’t bother telling you if they did and you could not trust them! Even if they stated (with great conviction I might add) they had been tested and/or always used protection. The psycho I was involved with acted liked he was the epitome of safety regarding his sexual exposures, cleanliness, etc…only to discover he had a “mobile, male massage service” he was operating under another alias. In addition to multiple other “sources” he was pursuing elsewhere. Gag, it was sickening when I learned the truth about who he really is and what he was doing and I am grateful each day for being spared this humility. It was humiliating enough without this added to it. Please be careful out there. Even if you are highly selective of partners,and there is lack of noticeable ulcers, warts, or abnormal discharge does NOT AT ALL guarantee a safe environment. Ask me how many patients we diagnose that believed it could never happen to them!

          Sorry if this is gross to some of you but it is a reality and deserves mentioning.

          1. SMH says:

            Thank you for that, Empath. I thought I was in the clear but it appears that I am not (not sure yet). It is not a death sentence so I am not all that worried but it is one of the reasons I told IPPS. She needs to get tested too. Everyone here who thinks that I ‘don’t care’ about IPPS or who criticizes me for telling while at the same time trying to make me take responsibility forgets that part. I did what I thought was right by telling her and I did it in part so she would get tested. Whether or not she listened is another issue but I did what I could.

          2. Empath says:

            Hey SMH,

            When I learned the identity of that Psycho I was involved with and discovered much to my horror that he was married, the very FIRST thing I did was pick up the phone and call his wife! I thought to myself would I want to know if I was his wife? You are damn straight I would! The thing was, this very same thing happened to MY marriage. Except the woman that was messing around with my husband KNEW me, and KNEW we had an infant son and a five year old. I hemorrhaged when I had the baby and ended up intubated in the SICU after having an emergency hysterectomy due to extreme blood loss. I received 18 units of blood. This woman came to the hospital, HELD my infant son, and brought “comfort” to my husband. Likely a Narc herself, in hindsight.

            Anyway, it was absolutely catastrophic for my life when I learned my husband was having an affair. So NO, I would NEVER intentionally have an affair with a married man!!! And I wanted to tell the Psycho’s wife that I didn’t know he was married, and also tell her the insane story he made up and told ME. Fortunately she had already caught him so she knew-but I wept when she told me they had been married over 32 years. I was so ashamed I had anything to do with him. I could not believe it.

            The other reason she needed to know is because she had multiple exposures to G-d knows what, just like I did and needed to get herself screened. I had so much information on him with proof because I hired a P.I. and told her I would back her up in divorce court if she needed anything from me I would turn it over. And she DID divorce his psycho ass. I have absolutely no regrets about it. If anyone deserved to be free from his narcisstic bond, it was her. Who knows what a nightmare she lived being with this sociopath for so long.

            I cannot imagine what he must have put her through.

          3. SMH says:

            Empath, Wow. You have been through so much. I am glad you survived all of that. You are a very strong person. I hope you are well now and that your children are well.

            I am not as thoughtful or decisive as you are. I did not know he was married for quite awhile and did leave when I first found out. But a few months later, I agreed to an affair. It was like he had a vise-grip around my neck. I was paralyzed.

            He was very good at covering his tracks but over a period of months last year I did write a long letter to IPPS (I did not know her personally), thinking the only way to permanently end it was to tell her (I left five times all together). My therapist told me to send it but I was petrified and did not. I warned him over and over, and even told him about the letter, but nothing I said mattered.

            I finally told her via email anonymously a few months post-escape, right after I found this blog (thank god) and after he hoovered for months. I did not give her hard evidence or tell her who I was, so I guess I did not do it correctly, but I did not want to be in the line of fire. I just wanted her to know his m.o. and get checked/protect herself. I don’t know that she believed me. She seemed most worried about cracks in the facade. This was all about six months ago…

            I asked on here for advice during that time. Some said yes, some said no. Hardest thing in the world. I admire how clear-eyed you are.

          4. Empath says:

            Hi SMH,

            Thank you for your kind reply.

            I just wanted to say, the only reason I appear clear eyed as you say is because it happened to me. My husband getting involved with someone else during my pregnancy and near death experience could not have gone much worse. The woman he was involved with also ended up pregnant…so I didn’t know if my husband impregnated her or her fiance did (yes, she was engaged and living with this man as she was pursuing my husband). We had to wait until she had the baby before any of us knew for sure. She got off on being a home wrecker, turns out she didn’t even care about my ex husband-she just wanted to see how far he would go in pursuing her as a married man. A delightful woman.

            Anyway, I was so destroyed by all of that I think it gave me strength to make at least some clear decisions when I finally learned the truth about the sociopath I was involved with for the past five years. The stupid little game he played with my life still has no comparison to what else I have survived. Not saying it wasn’t significant, but it certainly does not compare….and I eventially flourished after my divorce, and I will again as I recover from this experience. I was also quite lucky I wasn’t robbed blind or physically or violently abused as many others are that get involved with the H.G. kind.

            The fact it was all an illusion, as with most of us, was the most difficult thing to accept and subsequently let go.
            I miss his fake friendship but when I realized his scope of his sexual pursuits and likely deviancies, I was sickened more so than devastated. It helps I work in medicine so I immediately could focus on exposure risk more than the fact he was cheating on me with everyone and anyone he could find. My number one reason (if there is in fact a small part of me that was clear eyed) is that I had to protect my kids. Had I not been a mom I know I would’ve moved in with this psycho and likely lost everything to him. Having to set an example to my kids and protect my assets to support them was my most important line of defense. Their divine presence truly protected me because they always come first in my life.

            Had I been on the blog when you asked for advice I definitely would have said tell her. I would’ve told you to get proof first. I so wish someone among all the people that went along with the hoax would have done the right thing and told me the truth. At least with a Narc the behavior is exactly as expected for the diagnosis.

            With my husband, if they were absolutely certain I would have never ever found out, I would have rather not ever known. The level of betrayal went far beyond what I experienced with the psycho I dated. It upended my entire life and completely changed my projectorory. So, as I said, I wouldn’t have intentionally done this to someone else, because I know first hand how it feels. I do understand the Narc vice grip however, and I am very glad you are free from that situation. I will be okay too…but it is only 8 months since I escaped and went no contact so I still am healing.

            Thank you for your well wishes SMH…I return them to you and also reach out to the rest of you bloggers with thoughts of healing and wellness. Except you, H.G.

            😁 Just kidding grand wizard. The most I can hope for you is that within your therapy, your level of awareness continues to rise and makes you a less destructive Narcissist.

          5. SMH says:


            Eight months free after 5 years of entanglement is not very long, so I admire you even more. I am 7 months free after only 2 years of entanglement. Only now is he becoming an abstraction, though I know that could change.

            Thank you for your kind support re IPPS. It is very generous of you after what you have been through. I also feel that my experience was not among the worst – I was not beaten or robbed either. In fact, my MRN was very gentle in many ways.

            Because I did know about IPPS while I was with him, I think I was confused by my own hypocrisy and murky motives. I did have proof but I did not want him to know that I told – it is plausible that someone else did – and I did not want her to know who I was. Luckily, they moved shortly after and we are now in different countries.

            I do not know for certain the extent of his activities when he was with me but I am pretty sure they were fairly limited because he did not have a lot of time, I told him I would kill him if I found out he was with anyone else, and he knew for sure I would tell IPPS under those circumstances. I think as an aware IPSS I was pretty suspicious and had my eye on things, as did IPPS because he had cheated and been caught before he met me (I think they were separated when we met – they then reconciled during our entanglement). Both of us were watching him pretty closely and he was aware of it. Still, I do not know who he was with before me or when we were split up, which was on several occasions months at a time during our entanglement.

            But as you say, it doesn’t matter now. The thing now is to deal with the aftermath.

            I wish you the best on your continuing healing journey. You are in the right place!

      6. ava101 says:

        that is interesting, your saying “stealing” instead of “mirroring”.
        But you answered a question I was pondering about this evening, while I was at a talk /meeting: there is this guy who is clearly a narc, and his girlfriend, who is not, and I had been wondering about their relationship …. Yes, makes sense if viewed that way …. while he acts like the important person, and the great leader – he uses her cool character traits, and ideas, and her energy …

  21. Caroline R says:

    Hmm, it’s the hand that pulls the strings. I was expecting a little bit more Nosferatu. Glad it isn’t, I have enough N- nightmares.

  22. Caroline R says:

    Hi HG,
    Just noticed your stamp has become a photo of a hand/selfie. You’re teasing your readership in a new way today. This is the only N-game we can play where we don’t get hurt.
    That’s a novelty.

  23. Sandra says:

    The most awe inspiring logic-bomb HG ever dropped on me was 1 simple premise that changed everything:

    “There is no such thing as sex addiction. There is only fuel addiction.”

    How did I not see the forest for the trees for so long?

    Emotional thinking.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Always good to have a logic bomb go off, Sandra.

    2. Fuel on the Shelf says:

      Piano boy narc always said he had an addiction. A weakness for sexuality. 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️

  24. Kel says:

    Would it matter to you if your intimate partner had sex with someone else? If she just had a great time talking with another man, would that be the same slight as if she’d had sex or not as bad?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, not if I caused it.
      If she had a great time talking to someone else, it would depend whether I caused that to occur.

      1. Mary says:

        HG, would this be why my online narc insisted I play with others? And then demanded that he see screen shots of all the interactions? I think he knew online I was going to play with others on days I was shelved (because he knew I knew he was doing the same). So he chose to encourage it and be an ass about wanting to see everything (“if you don’t share it with me, you must not love me”) to take the fun out of it for me. Am I correct in this understanding?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          That was done to control you, to treat you like his object (because that is the way he unconsciously sees you) and to provoke you to provide fuel.

      2. shesaw says:

        Yes. That’s what my exN said, too. Literally. ‘Not if I cause it’.
        Very alienating experience to hear him say that. It made him feel powerful, it made me feel his toy. Connection lost. But that was something he didn’t realize.

  25. Michelle says:

    One night while out for a drink with Narc Friend he was telling me a story of a gay man propositioning him. The entire tale struck me as odd. Narc Friend is probably an UMR somatic narcissist and alpha male to a fault. Most non-narcissistic men like that do not like attention from the same sex. Narc Friend was clearly thrilled with it, though, as he recalled the story. “Wasn’t that awkward the next day?” I asked, knowing he had had to see the man again. “No, not at all,” Narc Friend said. I could not figure out why on earth such a clearly straight man would want that kind of attention. But that’s just it . . . it was attention. It didn’t matter who the person was giving it. Someone thought he was sexy and wanted him and that was all that mattered. I was puzzling over that exchange for many months, until he began a silent treatment on me. Then the pieces fell into place.

  26. MB says:

    HG, are you playing picture day with us too?

  27. Lori says:

    Wow what to say about this. Firstly, reading this kind of scared me in that I could totally identify with it. I am Codepebdent and much like a Narcissust I bore of people after a period of time. They can be the most attractive person, but I will eventually become bored no matter how. Successful anc good looking.

    Secondly, I found this piece almost comforting in that knowing the sex means nothing. I remember finding out there had been another ipss right before me. I was devastated and I remember him saying over and over “she meant nothing to me.You are everything to me “ was he laying ? Nope. At fhat moment, he was absolutely telling the truth. I was his everything just not for the reasons I thought

  28. Mercy says:

    Social media and dating apps make easy pickings. After I had been enlightened (punched in the face) about my promiscuous boys adventures, he got off on my reactions and started telling me everything. The numbers he was pulling from dating sites was disgusting. I know he wasn’t lying to me because he would send screenshots of conversations and pics when he was with them. He has a big name in our community and if he met someone that didn’t know who he was on a dating site he would ask to be their friend on FB. Of course he was inviting them to look at his FB because it highlights his accomplishments.

    I learned just what HG has written. It wasn’t about the sex at all. it was about being able to capture these women and the attention they showed him. The more pathetic they acted the bigger the rush.

    The sad part of all of it is the amount of women that had zero self respect for themselves. I know at the time I was in this category since I stayed and watched the shit show but it’s unbelievable what women will do in order to get some crumbs of attention from a complete stranger.

    1. MB says:

      Mercy, it sure does seem like the promiscuity would breed SO many women stalkers that the fuel from the short time period of engagement would be outweighed by having to deal with the bunny boilers. That was the thought that crossed my mind when I read this article and your comment. STALKERS!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Not if those chosen are particular empaths.

        1. MB says:

          “Not if those chosen are particular empaths.” Good to know. I’m no bunny boiler myself, but I will stalk a social media account in a heartbeat!

        2. Mercy says:

          HG, since I have cut off sex and he tells me his sexual experiences, does this make me lieutenant even though I don’t preform lieutenant duties?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            No, it means he is triangulating you.

          2. Mercy says:

            Oh so nothing new then. No status change? Thank you.

      2. Mercy says:

        MB, the bunny boilers were his favorite. They were the ones that kept coming back for more no matter how bad they got treated. Their crazy behavior (as a result of his manipulation) was his excuse to turn his behavior on them. He would name them according to their behavior. Example would be “former fat girl” she had gastric bypass surgery and lost a ton of weight. Smelly Kelly, slanted p***y girl. They all had names like HGs “It” girl. He made them sound so unappealing and crazy but I knew they were still around because their names got brought up more than the others. When I first met him he sent me screen shots of a girl that would text him like 100 times a day. He said he never replied to her. We’d laugh about her stalking. I found out 4 years later he was inviting her over regularly. They actually still talk.

        I never believe a word he says about a woman anymore. He has a way of twisting things to make them sound psycho. That’s why I don’t hate his IPPS it the other IPSS’s. I know the picture he paints is an illusion. I’m sure they feel the same about me. The difference is they don’t know. They still believe him. So I’m the crazy evil one to them.

        1. MB says:

          Mercy, do you know what he calls you when triangulating?

          1. Mercy says:

            MB, hahahaha good Lord no and I haven’t thought about it. Now you’re going to make me obsess about it. Some day maybe I’ll get a chance to talk to one of the other sources and see (he would never tell me. I’m special ya know…right?)…damn why did you do that to me!!!

          2. MB says:

            Mercy, I’m sorry! I didn’t mean to make you engage by thinking of his dumb ass. There’s a name -DA. I have this annoying trait of curiosity and asking questions that are none of my business!

          3. Mercy says:

            MB, no need to apologize. I was surprised that I never thought about the question myself. I don’t mind the question at all. I’m pretty open to share because I don’t feel vulnerable here. DA is good but he’s actually pretty smart. D-bag fits maybe. When I saw the title promiscuous boy my first thought was “this article is for me” but it’s too long to type. Maybe PB?

          4. MB says:

            Mercy, PB is good. The one I know is AW. He made a portentous remark one time, early on that he is an ass wipe really and I should probably leave him alone.

          5. Mercy says:

            MB, I actually need to give him a name. I hate calling him my narc. First he’s not mine and second it’s so generic.

          6. MB says:

            Mercy, name him after a bad trait or characteristic. We’ve got Pretzel MNM, we had PP for the penis pumper. There are lotsa good ones. What was it that Harvard called hers? That one was epic.

          7. Mercy says:

            MB, do you remember which article she posted on? I think it was a pole with like 400 comments. I’ll have to go back and look. I remember it being pretty good too.

          8. MB says:

            I’ve thought about Harvard many times and sent her thoughts of strength with what she was going through. What a situation! I hope she is doing ok.

          9. Mercy says:

            I still question Harvard’s intentions here. I was certainly willing to give her the benefit of the doubt after the first whirlwind. Sometimes people don’t make good first impressions. After she told her story and so many people reached out to show their support but the only one she responded to was the negative one. The last post I seen of hers seemed like such a private decision to share with people that just bashed her days before. It was almost as if she was looking for another negative reaction. 

            It’s only my opinion and I could be way off base but this site has taught me to look at situations logically. Let’s just say I’m neutral and if I knew her in my real world I would be cautious.

            Maybe HG or some of the readers will give us their opinion. 

          10. MB says:

            Yes, it was a bit odd Mercy to share such personal and painful details being new and just after coming in causing such a ruckus. It didn’t cost me anything to be kind. If her intentions we other than pure, that is a matter for her as HG says.

          11. Mercy says:

            MB, “It didn’t cost me anything to be kind” well said and words I will remember and apply. Thanks you.

          12. SMH says:

            I questioned Harvard directly – it was the obnoxious IQ/Ivy League Degree announcement combined with the bizarre stories about marrying and having a kid at 20, currently pregnant and abandoned by narc, with daughter and narc’s son an item. It didn’t ring true to me. I don’t know if she is a narc but good that she and Dr Harlequin (? :-)) found each other.

          13. Mercy says:

            SMH, if I’m not mistaken the Doc has been on this site for awhile and in the past has offered beneficial comments. I didn’t think they were the same person. It did seem odd though. Her story that they all confronted the narc at the same time was a little over the top. I put my narc in that situation. He would become enraged at the one that put it in motion. He would never in a million years listen to what was said or he would simply laugh and walk away.

          14. SMH says:

            Mercy, Yeah, I guessed that about Doc. I did not think they were the same person – just two people who are both very hard to take – too loud for me!

            My narc was also a master at deflection and wriggling out of situations. But he did sit there once while I went off on him in a state of high anxiety. He was actually very patient. Told me that people do HATE him. Ha. I never said I hated him – only that he seemed to have multiple personalities. I really do not think he had a clue as to what was wrong with him, though he knew something was.

          15. Mercy says:

            SMH, “Told me that people do HATE him.” This must be a typical mid ranger pity line. BS (my narc has a name now 😀) would come back from a silent treatment and say “I know you hate me”. He would never sit and let me go off. He wouldnt let me cry either. There were many car rides where he’d upset me so bad and I would cry and I couldn’t stop. I could feel his anger.

            What made you think your narc knew something was wrong? BS has a drop of awareness. He knows hes broke (his words). I’d say about 6 months ago he really started to wonder why he’s like he is. He says he knows he’s a cold fish. Obviously he doesn’t do anything to change but I was surprised at his awareness.

          16. Mercy says:

            Actually I know exactly what he would do because he’s currently in the same situation with a few of his sources (they got together and talked) he would divide and conquer. Pick the weakest one and use her to punish the others.

          17. NarcAngel says:

            My two cents on the subject for what it’s worth.

            I will go on record to say that I don’t believe Doc HQ is a narcissist. There have been others however who may have seemed quieter or displaying victim tendencies (not sure that’s the right description and don’t mean it in an offensive way) by comparison who I believe are/were. Harvard was not here long enough for me to come to any conclusion. People don’t always start out as we expect, or as they would normally be. Its content over a period of time that usually tells for me. I have addressed rude and offensive just for the sake of it immediately, but when I suspect a narc here, I like to let them talk, interact, and watch it play out as I would in real life. It can be difficult (especially in print) as some empaths are higher on the narcissistic scale than others (having more of them and at a higher intensity as HG has taught), but their other behaviours exclude them from being narcissists. Haha, I know what many of you are thinking.

          18. K says:

            I think Dr. HQ is an empath, super/magnet. I suspected Harvard of being a narc, however, I could be wrong.

            The interactions between Dr. HQ and Harvard appeared/displayed narcissistic elements and I can see why the reader would come to the conclusion that they were both narcissists.

            Of course, we all know exactly what you are.

          19. Mercy says:

            Haha NA there’s nothing wrong with an empath with a healthy dose of narc traits. I appreciate that you can state what’s on your strong opinions but are open to others opinions. I used to question my own empathy because I can come across cold sometimes but Im the type of person that has to hold back tears during the national anthem at a football game. Music at it’s peak, crowd cheering, jets flying overhead and I’m fighting tears…. really?

            I agree that Dr. HQ has a strong personality but I remembered a few conversations with her that were helpful to me. And I still stand neutral with with Harvard. As you said, she wasn’t here long enough to form an accurate opinion.

          20. Mercy says:

            NA I reread that and see the first part doesn’t make alot of sense. Working outside in the cold today. My only excuse haha. You get the picture though.

          21. NarcAngel says:

            I must be numb from the cold too then, because it made sense to me.

          22. SMH says:

            Mercy, I can be that way too – very cold and then cry when a kid gets hurt on a TV show. Must be a self-protective thing – maybe one step below a narc? (kidding)

          23. SMH says:

            Nah, NA, you are not a narc 🙂 Actually, I don’t think I am that good at spotting narcs. I haven’t had enough experience. I’ve only applied what I’ve learned here to one person irl and I am confident that he is not a narc, though that does not exclude other problems…

          24. E. B. says:

            I cannot remember Harvard. Dr Q is understanding and empathetic. They are certainly not the same person.

          25. SMH says:

            E.B., Thanks. I never thought they were the same person and haven’t interacted with Dr Q.

          26. Mercy says:

            *poll duh

          27. Mercy says:

            MB, cockwaffle!! And there’s was over 700 comments.

          28. MB says:

            Yes, Mercy! Cockwaffle

          29. NarcAngel says:

            Was it Cockwaffle?

          30. windstorm says:

            Oooh, yes! Cockwaffle. That is a good one!

      3. Lori says:


        They likely aren’t Bunny Boilers. He likely groomed them to behave like that or lies about them. That’s what these freaks do. They take relatively normal people and make them behave anc crazy out of character ways for fuel

        1. Mercy says:

          Lori, I’m aware that most of his victims are just that, victims. They have been manipulated just like me. There were a few that took the crazy a bit too far though. Usually the DLS type that he couldn’t introduce to friends and family because of their behavior. The bunny boilers were short lived. Unpredictable and too high risk of exposing him.

    2. K says:

      I thought Harvard was a narcissist. And I thought some of her last comments were pity plays.

      1. Mercy says:

        K, there were definitely red flags. Her last comments that she made the decision to abort the twins made me angry. Not because of her decision, but because I didn’t feel it was sincere. It felt like a comment to get a negative reaction or a pity play as you said.

        It takes some time for most of us to feel comfortable in sharing our stories. At least the deeply personal side of the story. I read for months before I shared and years before I shared the darker side of things. Even then I felt vulnerable but I’ve come to trust the integrity of this site.

        1. K says:

          There were many Red Flags and I felt the same about her abortion comment. It seemed very provocative and insincere. I got a bad feeling from her.

          Most of the readers who comment are very understanding and nonjudgmental, which makes it very easy to open up and share. That is trust and that is very rare.

          When individuals like Harvard or alphasierrapapadelta26 post comments I try to be open and learn. If we are going to have online encounters with narcs and ASPD types, then this is the safest place to have them, I think.

          1. Mercy says:

            K, yes agreed. Everyone has some sort of quality to learn from. What did Harvard leave us with? Cockwaffle 😁 can’t deny it was a good name. I guess I’m stuck with PB because I can’t come up with anything better.

      2. nunya biz says:

        Agree K. This blog as a very unusual place. In fact I wouldn’t post anywhere else.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          HG approves.

        2. K says:

          nunya biz
          If we tried to post on other forums (fora), we would probably be unceremoniously booted off. Most narcsite readers are very receptive to strong opinions and thoughts.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            That is because they have seized the power.

          2. K says:

            Indeed they have.

          3. MB says:

            We’ve seized the power why? Let me get out my black and white pom poms and do an HG cheer!

      3. Lori says:

        I think it would be very difficult to diagnose someone from comments here in fhat in early stages of recovery you can behave quite narcissistically just from the sheer fact you have been abused. You are in self protection mode and that’s when any narcissistic traits you have may shine brightly but there is a big difference between tendencies and the disorder

      4. nunya biz says:

        Yep Lori, I swear recovery for me = bitch on wheels.

      5. nunya biz says:

        K, I’ve found a few groups lately where acceptance (not catering to) seems to be foundational, including going to Coda meetings, highly recommend, very thoughtful. It’s becoming a requirement quickly.

      6. Lori says:


        Oh my ass needs to be a some coda meetings lol. Are you diagnosed Codepebdent?

      7. nunya biz says:

        Hi, Lori, I finally got a minute to sit down!
        No, I have no diagnosis, but I feel pretty certain of it.
        Also, the meetings are sooooo helpful just for life coping mechanisms, healthy reactions to stress, etc… stuff that almost anyone really needs more of. I’m trying to jump in and engage life feet first right now,
        BUUUUUT…..I have my flaws. Relationship-wise I feel a person should love me deeply and thoroughly, flaws and all because even those are interesting, but simultaneously I really don’t trust anyone to do that for real, so good luck to me.


        Eh. I’m doing a lot of self work and I do like the meetings, the people are kind and I feel nice and safe for an hour and we discuss things positively. I’m putting myself in as many places where being loving is appreciated as I can come up with because it’s a relief rather than worrying how to not be taken for granted I guess.

      8. Lori says:


        I’m curious to whether you have an addictive personality ? I do,but oddly never to drugs or alcohol ,but people, Narcs, fitness etc..different activities. I can get obsessive about working out a certain number of times etc I sometimes struggle with balance. I tend to be all in or all out with things. The therapist felt along witb a moderate case of Codependency that I also had a touch of OCD thag of course would become more prevalent based on my stress level

        I did find getting a formal diagnosis as to wtf was wrong witb me was helpful. I finally had label for some of my patterns of behavior.

      9. nunya biz says:

        Great catch, Lori, based on what I said there.
        Absolutely yes, I am currently in intensive treatment.

        It is part of the basis for my recent contemplations.
        I am in therapeutic environments well over a dozen hours per week, though I’m about to drop that to five or so. I have made a lot or progress, I think boundaries being my key issue. In the past I’d wondered if I had some BPD traits, but analyzing…
        NO, I don’t think so, reason being that my issues have more to do with my boundaries being crossed, not the other way around. I need to firm them up, but it gets really hazy sometimes. I think I can manage though. I am really focused on feeling people out and being emotional but logical, it seems to require constant attention.
        My addiction that drove me to treatment is alcohol, which I believe is a manifestation of unhealthy means of dealing with my boundaries being overtaken and my inability to sort the aftermath and inability to make my life experience sync with my expectations.

        I have to manage my addictions to other things best I can as well, coffee (2 cups not 2 pots), exercise, relationships, obsessing, fantasizing and sex. I’ve really been wary of sex partners because I have a strong tendency to choose narcissistic partners (it’s not 100%, so I’m trying to generate self-awareness) with the occasional straight up narcissist. My sex life is nearly nil for some time lately, not for lack of options I’m just really self-protective right now. One man at my workplace has repeatedly tried to hijack my guilt/obligation leanings to get me to answer questions etc, that’s easy for me to refuse.

        If someone is vacillating between some challenging, intentional hyperfocus and back to control it confuses me much more. I intend to just hold my space and transition out, like you said I am aiming for as much BALANCE as possible and if I keep my intentions and actions in line with healthy things I really shouldn’t have to worry about it. If it is baffling me I’ll step out of it. Balance has always been a challenge. I do obsess, there is pain involved. I have said on here that I used to be pretty much somnambulant, so part of my trying to sort everything involves me figuring out how and where to focus, I don’t know about you, but hyperfocus can be an issue for me if I’m not careful and it can be used intentionally by someone else. I spend a lot of time trying to read people’s intentions.

        My biggest fear is getting the impression something is more real than it is and then having it taken away after a much longer period of time.

      10. mommypino says:

        K, who is Harvard?

        1. K says:

          Harvard was a previous reader/poster. Here is the link below and if you use the shortcut (control/command F) use the keywords: cockwaffle or Harvard.

          There is a Clash of the Titans on that thread. Enjoy your trip down the rabbit hole.

      11. Bibi says:

        Harvard annoyed me. Whenever someone comes on a site and brags about degrees and their IQ I want to tell them to tightly roll those degrees and use a little jelly at the end.

        HG, nice pic. I like your arm fuzz, you beast.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Ha ha grrrr

          1. MB says:

            HG “grrr” You know I love it when you growl!

      12. Lori says:

        Wow Numya

        I got pretty close to being right on that .lol I hoo initially thought I had BPD but was told absolutely mot. This sure sounds like Codependency but get yourself a formal diagnosis. So weird that I have never struggled with drugs or alcohol but I’m grateful for that. Heres the thing with my addictions … they can be short lived or they cqn last a long time but often one I’m just bored with it I bore of people the same way

      13. mommypino says:

        Thank you K!!! ❤️

        MB, I love your picture. So adorable!!

        1. K says:

          My pleasure mommypino!

          I agree; MB’s picture is so cute!

        2. MB says:

          Thank you mommypino! It’s my 3rd grade school photo. I’m going through lots of old photos and videos and converting to digital. This was my favorite school photo. All the boys were crazy about me then ha ha.

          1. K says:

            Of course the boys were crazy about you, you are beautiful!

          2. MB says:

            Thank you K ❤️

          3. K says:

            My pleasure MB!

          4. Clarece says:

            We should have a day where we all post a baby pic on our Gravatar. Even HG. We’d probably be able to tell some things about MatriNarc by how he’s dressed and if he’s smiling or scowling…

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Or setting fire to something.

          6. Clarece says:

            How young were you when you started your first fire?

          7. HG Tudor says:

            5 or thereabouts

          8. Clarece says:

            Jesus! How were you able to get near matches at 5?!?!
            Did you include fire in your artwork as a child? Whereas a lot of kids make faces always smiling, or sun, rainbows etc. Do you recall if yours was different that long ago?

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Who said it was matches?

          10. Clarece says:

            Best boy scout ever rubbing sticks together with a mirror then?

          11. K says:

            Good Lord, HG… 5! I was a pyro (fireplay) at the ripe old age of 9. Most of my lessers smoked so I had access to plenty of matches and lighters and fireworks in the summer, of course.

          12. MB says:

            I’m game Clarece! I’m sure HG was a beautiful baby with lots of giggles and coos.

          13. HG Tudor says:

            I feel ill.

          14. Clarece says:

            Let’s do this MB!! Let’s pick a day and post a baby pic of ourselves! Before life hit us all. lol
            I’m thinking HG is choking back the vomit coming up in the back of this throat at you saying he could have been giggly and cooing at one point. haha

          15. HG Tudor says:

            I’d rather you did not.

          16. MB says:

            You’re the boss, HG. Mad respect, Sir! I’ll behave.

          17. HG Tudor says:

            So you should!!

          18. Clarece says:

            Okay! 😇

          19. MB says:

            You know I’ll do it. Baby picture day. Declare it. I knew I would hit a button with that one. He had to learn it somehow. During seduction I bet he does his share of cooing still. Ha ha

          20. Clarece says:

            Very true MB, the art of cooing during seduction. What must that be like with HG? Hmmmm

          21. MB says:

            Re: HGs seductive cooing…Divine Clarece. Divine.

          22. Clarece says:

            Uh…wishful thinking a little bit, MB?! 😜

          23. MB says:

            Oh yes! I just added cooing to my Christmas List. Maybe I’ve been good enough. 🤞

      14. mommypino says:

        MB, I agree with K, you are beautiful. ❤️

        1. MB says:

          Thank you Mommypino. I don’t deserve you wonderful ladies, but I am grateful for you all.

      15. mommypino says:

        K, thank you for sending me down this rabbit hole. It was really deep.
        Now I know how not to act around this blog so that I don’t become an annoyance.
        Although I have to admit that I got a little depressed. When I have read HG’s description of a magnet empath I honestly thought that I am one but now I’m not so sure. Most people who know me say that I’m a doll or a sweetie, not a bitch. My personality is totally different from those two magnet empaths. My stepdaughters actually have a much more similar personality to them. My stepdaughters are also tall, 5’9 and 5’10, while I am only 5’3. So maybe my stepdaughters are the magnet empaths and I’m the narc.
        Or maybe I’m just starting a new class of empaths called Magnet Munchkin Empath.

        1. K says:

          My pleasure mommypino

          Trust me, you are not an annoyance.

          There are several cadres: Magnet, Carrier, Geyser, Saviour and Dirty Empath. You may not be the Magnet, however, you are most likely a narc magnet.

          Keep reading about the cadres until you narrow it down. Although, Magnet Munchkin Empath does have a nice ring to it.

        2. Windstorm says:

          I’m a magnet empath. Don’t think anyone would seriously call me a bitch! Ha, ha! That has nothing to do with it. In fact, we tend to be very likable.

          My understanding is magnet empaths draw people to us wanting to talk to us. We give off vibes that we are safe to talk to. We’re great listeners and we do care, but we don’t try to step in and fix other people’s problems.

      16. mommypino says:

        K, I didn’t realize that there was another page to it. Just got done reading it. Apologies and clarifications were made. Now I feel bad for implying that they were bitches. I just got annoyed at the first part with the bullet points of accomplishents, height, IQ tests etc. It just reminded me of what my stepdaughters do a lot about highlighting their height and beauty in comparison to me. It seems that they are actually both real empaths. Harvard was just going through some tough times and maybe in a self affirmation mode because her self esteem was badly affected from her narc entanglement. I went through the same thing of being haughtier and braggadocious than I normally am because I was trying to fight to regain self esteem. And Dr. Q seems sincere whenever she gave advice or positive comments to someone. So IMO they are both empaths and not narcs. Just my two cents.

        1. K says:

          Ha ha ha…you crack me up. Don’t feel bad about implying that they were bitches (that is your empath trait of guilt coming into play) because the interaction between them initially appeared to be narcissistic. I am no expert and Harvard wasn’t on long enough for me to get a good “read” but my narcdar went off.

          Keep in mind, narcissists will use false contrition for facade maintenance and manipulation to keep you sucked in (hoovered) so you remain in place (in situ) and continue to provide fuel.

          On long threads there are older and newer comments and I should have warned you.

      17. mommypino says:

        Thank you K. You’re so sweet. ❤️❤️❤️

        1. K says:

          You are welcome mommypino!

      18. mommypino says:

        K I just saw your earlier response. I’m glad that I’m not an annoyance. I was starting to wonder if I am.

        I have read Magnet and Geyser and I have more of the magnet in terms of my style of helping and my experience with non narc people but I also have some of the Geyser. I will look up the Carrier and Savior. I almost became a Dirty Empath (actually I was a DE emotionally), and I think you’re right, I’m mostly a Narc Magnet (for torture and abuse, they seem to hate me).

        So far I like the sound of Magnet Munchkin Empath. But I might discover something more appropriate. The two magnet empaths Harvard and Dr. Q seem to have a Director personality type, alpha females. I have a Negotiator so I am probably something else.

        1. K says:

          Trust me, you are not an agitator. But you are a Narc Magnet like me. I am a Standard Empath (school) with the Cadres: Carrier and Dirty Empath layered on. There is no shame in being Dirty.

          It might take a while but you will figure it out.

      19. mommypino says:

        MB, I have been reading a lot of your comments in this blog and I think that you are such a warm, kindhearted and loving person. You deserve all of the good friends that God gives you, and even more!

        1. MB says:

          Mommypino, I DO have a lot of comments on the blog. Thank you for your sweetness!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            2 347 comments to be precise.

          2. MB says:

            Thank you for that, he who is omnipotent! 2,348 now.

      20. ava101 says:

        Who has the most comments? Next to you, of course?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I don’t know, I would have to check ava101

          1. MB says:

            I knew you opened a can of worms with that one HG!

          2. MB says:

            In the battle of comments, my money is on K.

          3. K says:

            ha ha ha…I am trying to cut down but it is difficult for me to keep my mouth shut.

          4. jenna says:

            Pls don’t cut down your comments. I love your comments!

          5. K says:

            Thank you jenna!
            You are such a sweetheart and I am happy that you love my comments.

      21. mommypino says:

        K, thanks for telling me about the two other empaths. I found out that my husband is actually a Carrier Super Empath. He’s not emotional like me but he likes to help people and when he does, you can see that it makes him proud. It was actually his idea to lend money to my narc sister and he seemed proud that he had the resources to help her and he didn’t accept my brother’s offer to pay him back. My husband’s father was a violent alcoholic who hated him but loved all of his other siblings. He took care of his dying alcoholic uncle and also his dad. When he was in grade school he used to help his mom who was a custodian to clean the classrooms so that she can finish early. This was the part that made me sure that he is a Super Empath, “The Super Empath relished the challenge that is presented and regards it as an opportunity to exhibit their powers.“ That’s pretty much his attitude when he helps someone in the church or our county. His being not very emotional and dependable balances me when I’m having Geyser Empath moments. His ex wife also, I suspect is a mid range victim.
        For me it seems like I have little bits of all classes. For example, I am a standard carrier in that I send money to my mom as an obligation even though it doesn’t bring me joy but it saves her from being homeless and starving. When I took care of my dad before he died, I did it out of pure love and it gave me joy everytime I saw that the way I treated him uplifted his spirits and made his journey less painful and scary, which sounds like a magnet, I don’t know what school. When I was in the Phils. beggars are everywhere and they just blend in and nobody even looks at them so on special occassions like Valentines or Christmas, I would buy a slice of cake and hand it to a beggar and greet that beggar and I just wanted to see in their faces that their humanity was elevated, which sounds like a magnet. Then I’m also a savior empath when it comes to being a Christian but the attitudes described there are not my inner attitude. So I think like you said it will take a while for me before I figure it out.

        1. K says:


          1. Your husband lent your narc sister money (residual benefit for her), that is his trait of caring.
          2. He did not accept your brothers offer to pay him back. Empaths are programmed to give, not receive.
          3. Your husband was the scapegoated child.
          4. He took care of his dying alcoholic uncle and dad, which displays compassion, decency, caring and possibly love.
          5. He helped his mother finish work early. Awwww….how sweet! Traits: love and caring.

          Reads like a Carrier.

          1. You send your mother money, that is your trait of decency.
          2. You feel obligated and you don’t want her to be homeless or starve; I think that is the empath trait of guilt.
          3. You really loved your dad so you are clearly a love devotee.
          4. You bought a slice of cake and greeted a beggar, which displays compassion, decency and caring.

          Yup, you may be a Carrier, too.

      22. mommypino says:

        Haha Windstorm you’re definitely not a bitch. You’re a total sweetheart!!
        I do tend to be likable in person. I’m very nonthreatening too and people do feel safe to befriend me and open up the first time they meet me. Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you.

      23. mommypino says:

        K, thank you for breaking it down. I’m so happy that he’s an empath too. That’s probably why he gets me and we get along so well. And I also have a lot of carrier in me so we have a lot of similarities which is why we appreciate each other because we see a bit of ourselves in each other. And I see similarities of him to you too since you’re both carriers. Like when you call out people here that are nuisance, that’s how he is too. He calls out BS when he sees it. Unlike me who keeps giving benefit of the doubt, he wouldn’t even waste time on someone that he thinks is a crook or a pile of poop. But when he thinks you’re a good person which is how he sees most people he is genuinely nice and gregarious. He has so much energy too which is I saw a trait of a carrier. And he’s definitely a doer. I’m so proud of him! ❤️ Thank you K!!! 😘

        1. K says:

          My pleasure mommypino!
          Oh, you are so lucky! He gets you…you are both fluent in empathy. And you see a bit of yourselves in each other, awww…two empaths mirroring!

          You got to call it like you see it, there’s no sugar coating the BS; life is too short.

          After a while, you get a sense of what Cadres/School other readers may be. MB and DebbieWolf are Carriers, too. Carriers are superlative listeners with lots of patience and we don’t talk much about ourselves or jump to conclusions. That Cadre suits me to a T.

          Welcome to the Empath Club, mommypino!

    3. NarcAngel says:


      If you’re taking suggestions, here’s one:

      BS. (for Big Show, but of course the abbreviation also works).

      1. Mercy says:

        Oh NA, I think you nailed it. You have no idea how much that fits. I was just thinking today that he’s such a “larger than life” type guy. He’s big (muscles) big name, big ego and attitude, big D, and a whopping big bullshitter. Love it!

  29. Fuel on the Shelf says:

    Oh look! I hear that familiar piano playing again….

    re: his sexuality.

    “That is how I express my affection!”

    1. Lori says:

      Oh that’s the oldest one in the book

      1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        Yep. I even recall parts of the conversation. It made NO sense.

        Something about that is how he expresses his affection. But then it went further in him saying there needs to be physical attraction too. And he gave an example of a coworker who he thought was pretty, smart, funny, etc. but there was NO physical attraction between them. Then it turned into how I was all of those things too but there was an intense physical attraction with me.

        Then I had questioned him if he was affectionate of her how was he expressing that affection if he was not having sex IF that is how he expresses his affection. He then repeated the part about no physical attraction.

        Then I said “Oh okay so I am different? You have to have sex with me because of the physical attraction?”

        He says “Well yeah. Because it is a way of expressing that affection!”

        So basically if there is no physical attraction then he does not express his affection sexually?

        My head seriously fucking hurts having typed that because it makes NO sense!

      2. Lori says:

        Let me translate :

        I want to fuck my co worker only she is not falling for it YET then when I do seal the deal FOTS should not be shocked after all I did say she attractive.

        You are being triangulated and he’s telling you who your potential replacement is if he can get it done

        1. Clarece says:

          Agreed Lori, Piano Man has cheated on his wife throughout their marriage. FOTS is not the first. This co-worker has probably put the kabosh on him and that is why he is rationalizing it as he doesn’t feel attraction to her. Whatever. As FOTS has said, it is always Narc Opposite Day with this one. He’d change in a heartbeat if the opportunity presented itself.

          1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Every day is Narc opposite day!


            Because that is just how I express my affection, sexuality is my vice. But it is wrong so we are not having sex anymore. I am also sorry we could not talk. It is not personal though. I tend to become very withdrawn when I get depressed, I am like that with everyone. But I do care for you and I am here now. If anyone asks how we know each other, just remember that we are bible study partners! You are overthinking again, please calm down. If you calm down we can have a phone call later, how does that sound? I hate talking on the phone, I am getting antisocial the older I get. How many times to I have to admit my hypocricity before you stop acting surprised by it? What can I say that has not already been said….I said I am sorry okay? My wife is pregnant and I feel sick. The cell phone tower in town was struck by lightening which is why I did not see your texts. My wife is pregnant and I am so thrilled. Sure I would love to get together but I do not think I will be able to behave myself and not indulge with you. Don’t worry, it’s okay. I have successfully compartmentalized my guilt from the last time. I do not understand this, you are fine with me for months and then the other shoe drops and you start acting like this again. Calm down, I love you kiddo and I am not going anywhere okay? As long as we maintain a proper balance and stay grounded here, we will be okay. I cannot handle anymore of this today, please, no more of this. I do not know when I will see you again but I promise you I will so you need to be patient okay? I love you, too.

            And now back to our regularly scheduled programming of….TV static.

          2. Clarece says:

            And seeing all that in black and white and you still want him in your bed FOTS? 😳

          3. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Yeah, I guess I do. Because he is an enjoyable person when he is not acting like a “cockwaffle” (that term in quotes since I know that nickname has been used by another). I guess that means I tolerate him. And since no one else is knocking on my door, when he comes around and is not acting like a cockwaffle, then I let him back in.

      3. Lori says:


        God they are all the same. I have a voice message saying Lori everything is fine. Everything is going to work out. I care for you and I’m not going anywhere.

        Omg such horseshit.

      4. Lori says:

        Oh God

        I got the moral high ground bullshit. Eye roll. It’s so bizarre how they all say the sand bullshit

  30. Jess says:

    Then why aren’t the empaths able to do the same thing if it’s no big deal? Just like a handshake right!? It’s really the narcissist who makes such a big deal about failthfulness and loyalty. Sex is really about fuel for both parties and empaths are put through the icy chill of withdrawal and cheating on top of that. To much hypocrisy makes the empath “not so pucker.”

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Because that would wound us and besides, we make the rules, not you.

      1. Jess says:

        I understand the logic of it. My emotions betray me with your kind… it’s bollocks. Thank you for letting me rant. I always have a choice to engage or not.

      2. Superpoweremotion says:

        Yeah sure ya do, yes you make the rules. It is you. Oh yes absolutely. So fun!

      3. M&M says:

        Yes your absolutely right, hello again I hope all is well,you can only imagine where I have been and why I’m back! So when it came to sex it didn’t matter men or women, I can have fun with either as long as your with me!!! He would always say!!! Sex, it’s just sex!! And he could absolutely share me with another man but again he would have to choose which man! We would have amazing sex, I didn’t need or want anyone else although I did once mention someone to bring in, biggest mistake ever he made such a dramatic fight over it, i was blown away over it, I couldn’t imagine him being so upset over the suggestion but he was! He knew I would never bring another woman into our relationship, so he agreed to men! He had all the women he wanted little did I know


      4. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Mine would tell me all the time that he’s not possessive, that I’m free, and that I am so hot that I deserved to have as many lovers as I wanted and that he would be flattered by that. I’m sure there’s fuel hidden somewhere in that attitude, thoughts?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          He is seeking a reaction both in order to determine the extent of control and to gather fuel.

    2. nunya biz says:

      The narcissist does have a gift for turning non problems into problems, beauty into ugly, joy to misery and gold to shit.

      1. Caroline R says:

        And dreams to ruins

    3. Lori says:

      An appliance doesn’t choose.anything. They are there for functionally and to do what they are programmed to do. We are the same to function and do as we are told. Choice. does not plat into this. Why would it when in their mind only an extension of them. You are not an indivuduql you are property with a purpose

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