Analysis : Narcissist v IPPS, Candidate IPSS and Shelf IPSS

narc ipps ipss ipss

This article provides you with the analysis of an interaction between a Somatic Lower Mid-Range Narcissist and three Standard Empaths (one from the Magnet Cadre the other two from the Carrier Cadre). The emphasis is not about the schools and cadres of the participants (although the flavour will be evident) but rather on demonstrating the nature of the interaction and how the narcissist regards the two.

The narcissist has a co-habiting partner (Carrier Standard Empath)and thus this person is an Intimate Partner Primary Source (“IPPS”) in devaluation. They have been in a Formal Relationship of partners for two years. Devaluation commenced one year ago. 


The Candidate Intimate Partner Secondary Source (“CANIPSS” – Standard Magnet Empath) lives in the same city as the narcissist. She is single.  They met on a dating site. They have met in person and known one another three weeks. The Formal Relationship is narcissist and CANIPSS,  early dating.

The Shelf Intimate Partner Secondary Source (“SIPSS” – Standard Carrier Empath) also lives in the same city as the narcissist and the CANIPSS. She is single and met the narcissist on the same dating site. They have met several times and have known one another for two months. The Formal Relationship is narcissist and SIPSS, established dating. The SIPSS is viewed as white and is currently on the shelf.

The narcissist awakes and immediately thinks about the CANIPSS. This is a Hoover Trigger (“HT”). She is viewed as white, he has her telephone number, they are friends on social media sites, the Hoover Execution Criteria are easily met and therefore he issues a hoover by sending a text message. Note that a hoover occurs as part of seduction.

“Hi, dreamt about you last night, better not say though, you might get too carried away before work.”

The CANIPSS answers within seconds by text.

“Wow, I like that, go on, you can tell me.” Positive fuel, potency high as CANIPSS, quantity low (written message) and one-off frequency.

Pleased by the effect of the fuel and the rapid response (signalling to the narcissist that the CANIPSS is coming under his control) he replies

“Let’s just say we both enjoyed it. Would be even better in person.”

The CANIPSS again responds in seconds by text.

“You think so? You sound pretty confident, I am no pushover you know, lol.” Positive challenge fuel (potency et al as before).

The narcissist whilst challenged by this text sees it as an opportunity to assert his perceived superiority but in a benign way.

“Of course. I know what I am doing. You will have to let me find out.”

The CANIPSS again responds in seconds.

“I might just do that. Did you have anything in mind?” Positive fuel (potency et al as prior)

The narcissist is buoyed by the fuel but moreover identifies that the CANIPSS is clearly interested and thus his control is slowly increasing. He responds quickly by text.

“How about I take you out for dinner tonight?”

A text arrives from the SIPPS.

Hi, how are you? I was just thinking about last week and how much we enjoyed that new Thai place. How about we go again? I am free tonight or tomorrow.” Positive fuel, potency high (as SIPSS), quantity low as written word, frequency one off.

The narcissist does not respond however, even though the SIPSS is viewed as white. She is on the shelf and he is focussed on the CANIPSS as he impatiently awaits her response to his suggestion.

The CANIPSS texts back.

“I cannot do tonight. I have something on.”

This rejection wounds the narcissist. It is only mild in nature however as it is by text. He is slightly irritated by this but as he is in the seduction period with the CANIPSS and therefore she is viewed in a white manner he maintains his control so the ignited fury does not manifest. He replies by text to the CANIPSS.

“How about tomorrow night?”

Just then the IPPS (the cohab partner) appears at the bedroom door. She is in devaluation  and is viewed as black.

“On the ‘phone again are we? You are never off it, I swear it’s welded to your hand.” she says with a frown and a shake of her head. Negative Challenge Fuel. Very high potency (IPPS), significant quantity (in presence, spoken word, tone, body language, facial expression), frequency one off.

This is negative Challenge Fuel. She demonstrates irritation and annoyance. It is a Challenge because she is ‘attacking’ the narcissist’s right to use the ‘phone when he chooses. Also because it suggests that he is not doing something right because he is on the ‘phone. The narcissist is not concerned that he is texting another woman and his partner has caught him on the ‘phone (albeit she does not know what who he is interacting with) but rather it is the Challenge as described which has to be addressed.

“Yes I am because someone has to work hard and bring the money in to pay for you and your wretched wardrobe haven’t they?” he responds with a provocative comment designed to draw further negative fuel but moreover to stamp on the challenge issued by the IPPS.

The IPPS puts her hands on her hips (negative fuel, very high potency, moderate quantity – presence, facial expression, body language, frequency one off.

“Yeah, you know what I am talking about.” goads the narcissist with another provocative remark. As he says this, he texts the CANIPSS again.

“I know this really good Thai restaurant which you will love, my treat naturally.” (Of course this is the same Thai restaurant that the narcissist went to with the SIPPS evidencing his lack of distinction between the people he is engaging with as they are appliances to him.)

Rather than wait for her response barely a minute after suggesting the restaurant, his lack of boundary recognition and sense of entitlement causes him to send this text. Further, the black view he has of the IPPS remains a stark contrast to the white view taken of the CANIPSS. In his mind the IPPS is a traitor, the CANIPSS the increasingly loyal saviour.

“Oh and you never buy any clothes do you?” retorts the IPPS in annoyance. Negative Challenge Fuel, very high  potency, significant quantity (presence, spoken word, tone, facial expression, boy language) , frequency one off. Challenge since the IPPS is suggesting that he is a hypocrite.

“I can buy what I like you money-grabbing ungrateful bitch, I earn it.” The narcissist increases the provocation with a gratuitous insult designed to garner more fuel but mainly to establish superiority again.

“Oh and I suppose I do nothing other than run the house and do a job do I? Anyway, I haven’t got time for this, I will see you at 1pm for lunch right?”

This is negative Challenge Fuel because she is suggesting the narcissist is ungrateful and does not do as much as she does (therefore she is superior) and furthermore she is trying to close down the discussion by having the last word which also challenges the narcissist’s notion of superiority. As she says this a text arrives from the CANIPSS.

“Yes, tomorrow would be great, I will be free at 8pm, let me know the name of the restaurant, I cannot wait and if you are good you can come back for coffee afterwards.”

Positive fuel, high potency, low quantity and one-off frequency. The narcissist’s control is increasing.

“Excellent. Cannot wait. Wear something hot, that blue dress really suits you.” he texts back.

His prescriptive nature about telling the CANIPSS what to wear evidences his sense of entitlement and increasing ownership of the appliance that she is to him. He also, owing to this sense of entitlement and lack of accountability sees nothing wrong with doing this and making the IPPS wait for him to respond. She stands waiting, glaring, providing further negative fuel. Her Challenge to him has still not been dealt wth. The narcissist is edified by the positive fuel from the SIPSS, more positive fuel from the CANIPSS but especially from the negative fuel from the IPPS. His day has started very well indeed and it is only 7-30 am.

“Oh I cannot make it, I have to go through the pitch with Ian.” answers the narcissist. This is a lie however his lack of conscience means he has no issue with stating this to the IPPS.

“You haven’t mentioned that before, well tell him you cannot do it,” responds the IPPS in irritation. Negative Challenge Fuel (telling the narcissist what to do), very high potency, significant quantity, one-off frequency.

The narcissist is under attack again and his verbal responses have failed to assert superiority as required. He has no fuel problem however. Since he has been accused of not telling the IPPS something he responds verbally

“Yes I did, I told you yesterday, but you do not listen, you never do, too caught up in yourself.” He issues a denial against her accusation of not having told her about the engagement with Ian which is part of the Narcissist’s First Line of Defence (see the article The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence). He is also seeking to stamp out her challenge by shifting the tack of the discussion (an instinctive response) through the manipulation of Projection by accusing her of the very thing he does.

“No you didn’t. you did not say anything,” she says in annoyance. Again Challenge Fuel of a negative variety. Potency et al remains the same.

The narcissist shifts manipulation (instinctively) again by ignoring her. Present Silent Treatment. Her status as viewed black causes him to think of asserting his superiority further even though she IPPS will not know what he is doing, in his mind, he is gaining superiority through this  next act.

The narcissist texts the SIPSS.

“Hi, good to hear from you, I was just about to text you when you texted me.” (A lie but it will make the SIPPS feel wanted).

“How about lunch today at 1pm? My treat. The Thai restaurant is open at lunch as well.”

(Note the second offer to buy a meal for someone outside of his relationship – a somatic gesture of generosity)

The IPPS stands waiting for an answer. She is still providing negative fuel from her stance, frown and glaring eyes. The narcissist continues to ignore her maintaining the Present Silent Treatment.

The SIPSS replies by text

“Yeah, great, I did have something on at 12-30 but I can move it for you (Carrier Empath – poor boundary assertion) I will meet you at 1pm, cannot wait.”

The SIPSS is on the shelf still (short exchange) but will be taken off the shelf for the lunch appointment – assuming the narcissist attends. He may not if circumstance dictates this benefits him. She remains viewed white.

Her text is positive fuel of high potency, low quantity and one-off frequency.

“Oh forget it!” hisses the IPPS he remains ignored as the narcissist starts flicking through a set of pictures he has exchanged with the SIPPS which gives him a small amount of Thought Fuel alongside the negative fuel that the IPPS continues to pump out as she is ignored and annoyed.

The IPPS storms off and slams the front door leaving the property. This last act provides another does of negative fuel because it is an annoyed gesture. The well-fuelled narcissist  smiles and finally rises from his bed. It is only 7-37 am and his day has begun rather well for him.

IPPS remains in devaluation and painted black.

Candidate IPSS is prime candidate in seduction, painted white and the narcissist will repeatedly hoover her during the day in a benign way, ahead of their date tomorrow night.

SIPPS is on shelf until lunchtime, painted white and ranking behind the Candidate IPSS still.. with no prospect of any immediate shift in that status.


296 thoughts on “Analysis : Narcissist v IPPS, Candidate IPSS and Shelf IPSS

  1. Asp Emp says:

    O M G !

    Guilty as charged, yes, I googled them…..laughing too much

    I am mortified but not surprised to learn new things, sorry, the names of such things….. on this blog.

    Male dogs tend to have a habit of “walking” the ‘German Tightrope’ one on carpets, just to get a scratch, and a clean, I suppose (never get a male dog, laughing)……

    That conversation on this thread is hilarious actually…..Yes. This site is far more than learning about narcissism !!! It is like all types of educational centres rolled into one…..

  2. Asp Emp says:

    HG, reading your comment here reminded me of my suspicions about the bosses at work with hidden voice recorders because of some things that I had (or someone else had said) “came to light” and it was interesting. I brushed it off as paranoia but it did occur on a number of occasions. Too coincidental. There was one person who worked in the office and was always “careful” about what they said. “They” turned on her, eventually. She left some time after I did.

  3. Lostonyou says:

    I am in seriously deep with a potential narcissist sociopath. It’s been four years of the cycle of love bombing withdrawal Hoover, triangulation, silent treatments, lieing, pushing sexual boundaries, confusion, destruction, loss, in fact pretty much everything apart from physical abuse. BUT I still feel the need to collect ‘proof’ for myself because while I instinctively suspect he is triangulating me with others online and off line I don’t have actual hard proof. I swing between feeling I have him worked out as a sociopath to feeling I am clutching at straws and paranoid and he’s just on the spectrum or psychologically damaged from trauma he suffered as a teenager. HELP needed. Currently he’s backing off a possible discard approaching but it’s like a drug as soon as he’s love bombing my resolve just melts. Did other need years of gathering ‘proof’ before escaping?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I recommend you organise a consultation with me as there is a lot of material to address here.

    2. Lori says:

      The way this guy is making you feel is all the proof you need and believe me once you get the proof you’ll make an excuse and want another piece of proof and on and on be ause you don’t want face what you know is true. Continuing to deny it wlll send spiraling out of comtrol eventually until you no longer recognize yourself

    3. SMH says:

      Lostonyou, Trust your gut. I second guessed myself so many times…

  4. jenna says:

    You are teasing us with these selfies!

  5. jenna says:

    It seems my comment is misplaced. It should be more towards the bottom of the thread where the discussion regarding this and more was taking place. The topic had me thinking of the other topic which I wrote about. My stance on disclosure vs non disclosure is still the same. I feel disclosure is important. And yes, some pple start dating for the purpose of finding a long term partner in order to one day have a family. When they find out, they feel betrayed. There are many points I can use to support disclosure. There are many points you can use to support non disclosure. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I believe that honesty is key. And no, it is not easy to tell. Kayla Itsines for example is a very beautiful trans woman. Somebody on the blog stated that she is transgendered and I definitely could not tell. It doesn’t mean I don’t feel for them. Pls don’t put words into my mouth. I never said that. My heart sinks with heaviness when i read stories of gender dysphoria. But my heart also sinks with heaviness when I read of stories of partners who did not know, and wish they had known, because now they feel emotionally connected to somebody that doesn’t fulflill their desire to have a family. My heart also sinks for the man who does not want to have sex with a (biological) male, unknowingly does, and then starts to have gender issues himself, where previously there were none. We may want to ignore this latter issue, but it is a reality as well. That is why honesty is so important.

  6. jenna says:

    Re: period sex

    At least with period sex one knows his partner is biologically female. I fear sometimes for hg what if he is dating a transgendered female that has had gender reassignment surgery. Some of them are very beautiful, more beautiful than biological females! Kayla Itsines for example was born male. Somebody on the blog alerted me to this. You can tell by the hip:waist ratio.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Why would one fear for me?

      1. jenna says:

        I fear you may sleep with a biological male unknowingly. Unless of course, you don’t mind. But I am pretty sure you mind. And so do I! My apologies to any transgender females out there but it is how I feel. Full disclosure is necessary but most do not disclose because they think it’s nobody’s business what their birth sex was.

      2. 2SF says:

        Jenna, I fear people like you.

        1. jenna says:

          Hi 2SF,

          Are you ‘blank’? If so, hi!

          Have I offended you? If so, I apologize.

          1. 2SF says:

            Of course Jenna, who else would commend as such? No I am not offended. People can say anything they want and I feel free to do so as well. Transgenders are people too you know, with feelings and emotions and they have gone through great distress for most of their life, feeling they are in the wrong body. Try to be empathic, think about it, put yourself in their shoes for once and don’t make it sound like they are people you should avoid like the plague. I’d rather date a transgender than a person with a mindset like you Jenna.

          2. jenna says:

            Hi 2SF/blank,

            I was not certain it was you so I just wanted to confirm.

            I think you have misunderstood my comment or perhaps I was not clear. I have much empathy for transgendered people. They experience gender dysphoria, and go through alot of ups and downs. I have a transgendered friend and she and I get along very well. My heart goes out to them because they have to make such a big decision and the surgeries are not easy.

            However, this is an ethical question. My view is that the partner should be told the truth. If the man is heterosexual and does not prefer to have sex with a biological male, that should be his decision to make, not find out after sex. The transgender female’s previous penis is turned inside out to create a ‘neovagina’ that looks and feels like a real vagina. Inside, he still has a prostate gland. Some men only want to passionately kiss biological females, and and it is their choice. Perhaps some pple may not agree with their choice in only preferring biological women, but it is their choice. Like I said, this is an ethical debate. I am on the disclosure side of the debate. I think disclosure is important. Pple will have different views and I respect all views. Hg has stated several times on the blog that he is heterosexual and that is his preference.

            Nice to see you blank! We all have different opinions and that’s ok. That’s what makes this world a unique place!

      3. 2SF says:

        Okay Jenna, so some women here who had a histerectomy should mention this as well on their first date, because they are no ‘real women’ anymore?
        When someone looks like a woman, has a vagina and you’d like to have sex with her, what’s the problem?
        A problem may only rise when you want to raise a family together and the other person purposefully does not mention the fact he or she is infertile. Your first comment is really weird, you ‘fearing for HG’. He is a grown up man, you do not know all his sexual preferences and besides that, one wouldn’t easily ‘fool’ HG, he would know.

        I fear you may sleep with a man who doesn’t know your true inner world, or you don’t know his. That’s much more frightening to me than missing or having an extra body part.

      4. ava101 says:

        …. not to mention the fact that HG wouldn’t be restricted to a certain age … or non-pregnant women … or a certain gender at all …

        I don’t know why you focus so much on your period sex, Jenna, mentioning it again and again on several threads, like … we know by now, thank you …

        But these lasts posts are offensive in so many ways, also sexist in a weird twisted way …

        Either way, those are comments, I really don’t want to know about, they have nothing to do with the topic/article, aside from your misplaced concern for HG.

      5. jenna says:

        I have not ‘mentioned it again and again on several threads’. It was only one other thread sometime last year where FOTS talked about it, so I addressed it there. It was brought up again in this thread, which got me thinking about the disclosure issue.

      6. Lori says:

        Oh brother complete eye roll. Funny 2sf you don’t seem to have the same sentiment toward Narcs who are merely damaged children.

        No one has to feel all warn and fuzzy about transgender and no I don’t have to put myself in their shoes anymore than I do the Narcs.

      7. Lori says:

        And saying you fear Jenna for her remarks well guess what ? That’s offends the fuck out of me

    2. Morning sun says:

      Okay, I have to ask: what made you think HG might be “dating a transgendered female that has had gender reassignment surgery”?

      Is it “pin your hang-ups on HG” month?

      1. ava101 says:


          1. HG Tudor says:

            I think we’re getting away from he subject of narcissism here

          2. jenna says:

            Sorry hg. Noted. Done.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Quite alright

          4. HG Tudor says:

            What you should be asking is – Is there a moral duty to disclose that you’re a Narcissist to a potential partner? answer – of course not, what’s a moral duty?

          5. jenna says:

            Lol very true, though as you have said many times, most of them do not know what they are, and even if told, would not acknowledge it. Pls see the following article readers:


            And yes I do recall you have stated numerous times that you are ‘morally bereft’ for those of us who just did not understand that.

      2. WhoCares says:

        Morning Sun –

        “Is it “pin your hang-ups on HG” month?”

        Hahaha…I’ve not read the entire conversation you’re referencing but isn’t HG a pincushion for hang-ups?

      3. Morning sun says:

        WhoCares, it does seem he gets mistaken for one often, except all of those needles sticking out from him are turned outwards so – ouch!

        1. WhoCares says:

          Ouch, indeed!

  7. Trocadero says:

    Long thread,can’t tell where the far*ing discussion began to reply to hahaha. I also think it’s unthinkable for my Narc that his sources do that. One time,I have sent him a funny selfie wearing a false moustache as a response to his requests of sending him a ‘hot’ pic. He told me (half-laughing) that it was the most unsexy thing he ever saw in his life and to stop doing it since ‘I am breaking the myth’. ‘That’s the point’ I replied 🙂 then it hit me how he’s living in a fantasy world where women probably don’t go to the bathroom and always look like ‘I woke up like this’. Then I knew nothing about this site,but now I almost graduated on HG academy,it all makes sense. HG,would you immediately disengage if a woman far*ed in front of you during GP or would you save that as a joker for the devaluation period? 🙂 funny subject indeed. In general,what goes through your head when this moment when you evidence your source is made of ‘flash and blood’ too? Are you oblivious to all in GP or it immediately turns you off and triggers another source getting into the picture? For the record,I have a friend (not Narc) who was shocked when he found out at the age of 25 that women fart too :))) I was literally dying while he was describing his state of shock.

  8. Jean says:

    Hg thank you for writing this. I found it to be very revealing. I would love to see you write this type of story about cerebral narcs and elite narcs. I seem to keep running into those two more than somatics.

  9. Leslie says:

    Just be quiet. Stay in the silent mode.

    You have not earned the right to speak.

    1. HG Tudor says:


  10. WiserNow says:

    Great article HG. It’s eye-opening in it’s real-life detail and explanation of thought processes and fuel given in italics.

    What surprises me is how quickly and instinctively it all unfolds. In the space of ten minutes or so, the narc has managed to manipulate three people with his toxic mind-games and create drama and chaos that would take hours to unravel, decipher and understand by those same three people.

    There’s a monumentally stark difference in how a narcissist reacts to things compared to how a “normal” or empathic person reacts. Their sense of entitlement is one of these differences.

    In your article, the narcissist feels entitled to lie non-stop without a second thought to all three of the targets. He is willing to say whatever it takes in order to bend things to his will. However, when a victim (in this case, the IPPS) responds to a lie by pointing out that the narcissist told a lie (which she is rightly entitled to do), he feels “wounded” and receives “negative challenge fuel” because she is “telling him what to do” and his “superiority” is called into question?! This scenario is so ridiculous that it’s laughable.

    It’s impossible to have a real or fulfilling relationship this way. It’s all a toxic, chaotic mess and a waste of time and effort. Thank you HG, for spelling it out clearly.

  11. amanda SNapchat says:

    do people notice that the narc wastes so much time texting? he could have a very productive morning, building imaoctful things. But since he is an addict to fuel he needs to focus on that 100% all the time.
    So sad :'(

    But also I think empowering. Let’s use our time wisely. #teamEmpaths

    1. Joanne says:

      Constantly texting. Long ones, too.

  12. Michelle says:

    The interesting thing with Narc Friend is that he seemed to be romantically involved with all the females he knew in some way, but in varying degrees. He had a particular story he’d present to women very subtly that hooked them in. He was very handsome and charismatic, and would pitch himself to women as having gotten his heart broken and being so jaded that he wasn’t sure he ever wanted a relationship again. He spent a lot of time telling me about how he lived his life basically alone and barely talked to anyone on a typical day. He’d write to me on almost a daily basis, which I figured at first met his need for companionship in some way. Of course, a woman seeing such a handsome man who seemed so lonely and jaded would jump at the chance to win his trust and his heart and show him that love doesn’t have to hurt — and that’s what hooked me right in. He knew for sure that I was romantically interested in him and did absolutely nothing to discourage this, but never reciprocated either. He talked about how he disliked commitment and preferred to be free and didn’t think he’d ever get married, but then would sigh over hearing someone else had met their soul mate or talk about what kind of dad he’d be someday. You never quite knew what he wanted for himself or from you. The relationship was perpetually in a grey area. One day he’d talk about visiting me, but the next he’d be cold to the idea. This led me (and I’m sure a lot of other women) to try to push it in a more serious direction, offering him loads and loads of fuel in the process. Really, it is a pretty genius low-energy way to get a lot of female attention. You can imagine my shock when it became apparent that he actually had a girlfriend.

    The last time I saw him he talked about how he didn’t really like sleeping next to other people and didn’t like anyone to have a claim to his time. I think for this reason he kept his ties to his sources very loose with extremely low expectations. I have no idea what the rest of his fuel matrix looked like, except that most of his relationships were long-distance and involved a lot of travel on the part of both people. This helped him compartmentalize and allowed him to spend his time however he wished without questions. I was technically an NISS, but probably more like an “IPSS in waiting,” being kept available for that role in case another source proved unfit, along with at least one other woman I know with whom he triangulated. The last time I saw him I got the full interview which included my finances, my desire for future relationships, my reaction to the other woman I knew, when and where we’d meet up again, and my current relationship with my ex. I can only assume that I was headed for a promotion — that bullet whizzed by so close that I practically felt the breeze from it, because I found out about his cheating ways about 3 days later and got the silent treatment.

    1. Liberated says:

      Arghhhhhh, reading this I almost think we knew the same person!

      1. Michelle says:

        I often wonder if anyone else commenting here knew the same guy. I think that his relationships (of various levels) were fairly prolific so I wouldn’t be surprised to run into someone else who did. The degree to which his life was incredibly well-organized around attaining this kind of scenario is shocking. He didn’t make much money at his job, but it facilitated swapping phone numbers with single females frequently. He tended to avoid having overtly sexual relationships with all these women despite probably being somatic, which is still slightly puzzling to me, but it was also a way of maintaining his cover story of loneliness and hesitation and making anyone he did sleep with feel super special — he appeared outwardly to be very monogamous and his behavior never suggested he was a player. No source knew about any of the other sources, so each individual was very deeply bound to him, thinking she might be “the one.” I live in “flyover country” in what he considered to be a boring place, which probably actually spared me the worst of it, because I didn’t offer the residual benefits he was looking for.

        I am still not disengaged, incidentally. Painted black and shelved, but not blocked. Last I heard he wasn’t working the job where he picks up women, so I wonder if I will hear from him again when fuel gets thin, or if I’ll eventually be tossed aside.

    2. A383 says:

      Michelle, this is so spot on.

      1. Liberated says:

        Imagine my shock when someone (whom I met thru him incidentally) sent me a screenshot of an IG story from their common friend of the Mid-ranger at his wedding! Literally the moment of signing. I was on holiday and he had still been texting me regularly.

        HG, why is it that narcs marry down? The current wife/victim is less pretty professionally not even close to me in accomplishments. My career surpassed his (same industry) during the devalue.

        Doesn’t the concern for appearance and status mean they prefer to marry up? His friends are shocked he picked this one (out of the other 10) but apparently she cleans up after him when he comes back from partying.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          See ‘Have You Seen Who He Is With?’

      2. Liberated says:

        Wow HG. I think you’ve outdone yourself. I just read your “Have you seen who he is with” post. By his own admission he picked her because she puts up with his partying and cleans up afterwards. She has no career really so I guess she will feel like a winner someone so good looking and successful picked her.

        Since his career stalled and he was let go from our previous company, he needed an ego boost, which explains the 10 appliances he picked the wife from. It also explains why it was a wedge discard, until I confronted him I knew about the wife. I really wish I knew what he was and knew about your work before sending those emotionally charged texts.

        That being said, thank you HG. It’s been a month and I am operating on logic and cold reason 95% of the time. Without your work I would still be “why didn’t he pick me? I do everything he asks, I was planning to decline a promotion opportunity so as to not outshine him anymore”

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Pleasure, if you need anything else explaining in greater detail do consult with me

      3. Liberated says:

        I plan to. I will be in contact.

        But first, finish my journal, work double time to chase that promotion and double time at muay thai plus all the festivities of the season.

        He can show off his new appliance. I can show off my new title and abs. (Consultants, we are a competitive lot)

        Thank you, HG.

    3. Supernova DE says:

      Wow this sounds so familiar. My MMRN also does the distance thing and I suspect has many “inappropriate” flirty friendships with women that he keeps simmering.

      I’ve often thought that he (being very cerebral) would’ve preferred to keep me in that type of role also. But I pushed for sexual interaction, so he obliged to make sure I was bonded I suppose.

      I also think he pulls women out of his past a lot. Worked with me. He’s nothing special in terms of charm or looks, but very polite and respectful with some intelligence and a good job. (Exactly as HG describes an Mmrn). I have, through sneaky means, seen how he texts a new prospect and he’s awkward and somewhat offputting. And he’s a terrible kisser, so not sure how he gets on with acquiring IPSS’s.

      Maybe for him it’s all long distance and online. Wouldn’t surprise me in the least. Nor would it surprise me to find out he has two local IPSS that he has nooners with and sneaks out for dinner with haha

      1. MB says:

        SDE, narcissist/terrible kisser? Say it isn’t so!

        1. Supernova DE says:

          Ha! Cerebral, that’s the only explanation. As soon as he kissed me as an adult, I remembered that even as an innocent 16 year old making out in his parents basement I knew he was terrible at it. He had not improved with age lol he is exactly the same.
          He also has this offputting habit of giving a few staccato style kisses and then going directly for the promised land by reaching for your jeans button. Even guys in a hurry usually do better than that, but there was absolutely no touching of my face, neck, breasts, anything.
          He is WAY better at imaginative sexting. Can’t deliver in person. Though according to him he says he is like a sex god in bed. Haha typical

          1. freedgypsysoul says:

            Hmmm, Supernova, were you with my ex narc too? LOL The whole concept of foreplay was never in his bag of tricks, ever! He could ‘take’ (what guy doesn’t like a blow job) but was incapable of giving in any manner whatsoever. I remember having one conversation with him (while he was probably driving home from an IPSS to me, the IPPS) and I had said to him “I am surprised that you have managed to get laid at any point in time in your life because not only does your skill set suck, how do you get together with anyone when you say you don’t like touching?. How can you have sex without touching your partner?”

            I also remember asking him one time “did your mother not hold you enough as a child?” (little did I know at the time, how dead on that remark likely was)’

            HG…..would you call those comments of mine, a warning shot over the brow of the ship, or direct hits capable of extreme wounding? (thinking my exN falls between upper lesser and lower mid range as he vacillates between striking out in violence, threatening to call the police and pleading).

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Most likely they would be Challenge Fuel because you provided emotion (fuel) when you said them.

      2. Supernova DE says:

        As a further example of his excellent cerebralness, he picked up over time that I am particularly inclined toward oral pleasures, going both ways.
        He once said, “So I’ve been thinking about you wanting to go down, and I think I could get into that.”
        Ummm wait, hold up, you THINK you can get into receiving an enthusiastic high-quality blow job from a classy sexy beautiful woman you’ve been building sexual tension with for months….where the fuck did you leave your man card!!?!!
        A normal man would say, “Damn baby I love that you like to do that it’s so hot.”
        (Eyeroll) I honestly don’t know why I stuck around when I recall this stuff.

        1. MB says:

          Yep, not normal!

          1. Supernova DE says:

            Yea, well, as previously discussed, neither is sending a picture of your penis pump in use instead of spending a weekend in a hotel fucking like rabbits as has been offered by said sexy beautiful woman many times.

          2. MB says:

            SNDE, ha ha, Mr PP! I guess the real deed is too intimate for him.

          3. Windstorm says:

            Unfortunately, sounds normal to me.

      3. Lori says:


        That is so funny. Mine said he hates being touched and doesn’t really like kissing but would kiss me. But doesn’t not like havd holding anyone sitting too close to him cuddling or hugging but would tell me all the time how he wanted to F me or how he thought about me in his “private time “

    4. jenna says:

      Hi michelle,

      The description of your narc sounds eerily similar to the mmrn i knew.

  13. JustEmpath says:

    HG, if you are dating narcissist for a while and he starts a conversation “I hope you don’t date other men, I want it to be exclusive, only you and me” and also asks questions like “what can I do to prove I am only yours? Do you need a declaration or any other form of evidence that I am trusworthy and reliable?” – is it a sign he tries to crown you as IPPS?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not necessarily but you are certainly a Candidate IPSS.

    2. Morning sun says:

      He wants you to prove you’re only his and to give him evidence that you’re trustworthy and reliable… projection at its best.

      1. Lou says:

        I have never dared to ask, but now that has been mentioned, I would be VERY interested in reading about narcissism and the (food) elimination process (joke). Except for one, none of the narcs I know have food issues. All the opposite, they eat quite freely. However, most have digestion/elimination issues.
        The reason why I am interested in this is because the gut is a second brain and serotonin is produced there and responsible for the good functioning of the whole digestive tract. It seems to me that people with NPD are low in serotonin. Sleeping issues also seem to be present in most of the NPD cases I know (sign of low serotonin levels too).

        1. SMH says:

          Ah yes, sleep issues too, Lou. I don’t know if MRN had them but Lesser sure did. I would bear the brunt of his irritability – if he could not sleep it was because of me. I was not allowed to so much as breathe and he would make things up that I was doing that kept him awake. It became so that I was not allowed to sleep because he couldn’t and I was afraid to do something to set him off.

          When we slept apart he STILL could not sleep. Of course that was also my fault – making him sleep elsewhere. I shudder at the memories…

          Lesser somaticized everything – he was fit, good looking, basically healthy but on and on about the digestive troubles, circulation problems, high bp, deaf in one ear, couldn’t sleep, body image, sleep problems, measured food intake, etc. He would not touch any sleep aids but he drank like a fish. Me: maybe you shouldn’t drink so much in the evening. Him: whacks me over the head with a can of Guinness.

      2. Lori says:


        That is funny. Yes they all have sleep issues and seem to sleep very little and I have read countless times about them having bathroom issues to include even being weird about toilet paper

  14. I agree with Rebecca…. please do more of these dialogues, stories, etc. whatever you want to call them.

    Also you said the guy is a lower mid range? Would a mid or upper-mid make the nasty comments to the IPPS in the same manner? My MMRN is always so polite and never insults. Yes there was the back handed comment but he would never say something like “someone has to pay for your clothes you bitch” or whatever. I guess I am just wondering if “Mr Polite Pants” would have different dialogue with the IPPS.

    And yes I overthink how he interacts with the IPPS all the time.

    1. shesaw says:

      Hi FOTS,
      Mine was always very polite too. Only a slip of the tongue/mask in a line now and then, but he never yelled at me or insulted me. I think it is how their false self is constructed, if their false self is about being a good and nice guy, they will always strive to be like that (and be very accustomed to that).
      So good to read that you are not contacting him, by the way. Good for you!

      1. MB says:

        Shesaw & FOTS, I got polite too. But I did sense the underlying, “you won’t like me when I’m angry”. I got a tiny taste of it once (CD). That was enough to keep me stroking the fur in the right direction. Cats are polite too, until you do something that doesn’t suit them. Then the teeth and claws come out and no more Mr Nice Guy! Eggshells anyone?

        1. shesaw says:

          MB, I did something that didn’t suit him. I got the stare, I got silence, I got ‘the silence before the storm-activity’ (and then complete silence, followed by a friendly comeback) – but he never ever was insulting with words (the silence was insulting enough, tough). He hinted few times at his inner darkness, but would refer to it as joking when I asked him questions about it. Do not open the box…

          1. MB says:

            Shesaw, you are correct, the silence hurts! It speaks loud and clear, “you are worthless to me.” It doesn’t take much to make me feel “called down” like a child and made to feel ashamed and insignificant. I suppose some SIPSSs are easier to keep in line than others. Now that I get my answers from HG, I’m not inquisitive or persistent for attention.

          2. shesaw says:

            MB, the silences were the worst things in the whole relationship. I remember the first ST (test during GP) like it happened yesterday. I resented him so much for it, I couldn’t look at his face when he showed up a day later. Recalling it now, I wonder what kept me with him for nearly a year after. Such a skilled seducer he was! Yeah, I have to give him credits for that…

      2. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        Shesaw and MB….
        Yeah I have had many CDs. I have been giving him space which has lessened that somewhat. I still get intermittent periods of ghosting though.

        Your quote….

        “I think it is how their false self is constructed, if their false self is about being a good and nice guy, they will always strive to be like that (and be very accustomed to that).”

        …. This makes so much sense! He is ALWAYS the good guy, the nice guy. One time I said to him “You are the most polite, mild mannered and calmest person I have ever met”. His reply was “I have to be”. Not “thank you”, not “that’s nice of you to say”, no… “I have to be”.

        Looking back now I feel like I should have asked “Why do you have to be that way?”

        I am dying to know what the hell happened to him to make him “have to be that way”.

        Surely he must unleash his anger or rage in some manner right?

        1. shesaw says:

          FOTS, … you feel like ‘I should have asked’. I did ask such questions, but he would not open up. It’s too fragile. He did trust me I believe, but I was not allowed to come too close. It puzzled me, frustrated me back then. Not anymore. Two reasons (based on the strictly hypothetical supposition that he wants to open up):
          – considering myself: I doubt if I will be able to handle the rage, shame, feelings of worthlessness and anger that I believe will release if he starts opening up about his ‘inner sanctum’;
          – considering him: I believe he will feel very deeply ashamed about himself if he opens up to such an extent. Since the slightest feeling of shame is unbearable to him, his automatic defense system will take over, and he will most probably project it into me (silence or devalue) and run, run, run…
          So it’s a lose/lose situation.

          1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            “He did trust me I believe, but I was not allowed to come too close.”

            Pretty much this, word for word! Another phrase I frequently heard was “you are getting too close, again, and I am getting uncomfortable, again”.

      3. SMH says:

        Mine too. Extraordinarily calm and always kind to my face. Cold fury only twice and at a distance. But I noticed early on that he had a very limited emotional range overall – never extremely happy, sad, worried, anything emotional really. He had a good sense of humor, but that was about it. It is partly the mask of being the good guy but I think it is also that showing anger – at least for a mid-ranger – means showing emotions, which means displaying a weakness/lack of self-control.

        1. shesaw says:

          Yes, I agree SMH. Being self-controlled was his pride.

        2. Fuel on the Shelf says:

          Again, pretty much word for word what you said. I had a few heated exchanges via text and then silence but never really much anger. And yup, good sense of humor too. The only time I ever saw him overly excited or happy was when he was talking about movies or TV shows. Specifically anything involving Marvel or DC comics, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings or music (orchestral only).

          1. SMH says:


            Must be the disability speaking. I do believe this is all connected. It is just a mystery to me how it is and I guess what emotions are in a real physical sense. I can understand someone being more or less emotional but the question of what emotions actually are, and what it means not to have any (or to have few or shallow ones), intrigues me. I wonder how it feels inside HG’s head…

            So, Marvel Comics? Harry Potter? Sounds like my own boy child. Maybe it is the stunted emotional growth? Stops when they are around 12?

            I never talked pop culture with mine. I tried – I would embed obvious lyrics in my messages, play music and occasionally send him links. But he had zero response. I think he read, but only science. Very left brained.

            I also think he had food issues. Does yours? An eating disorder, which he did his best to hide from me.

            His Instagram reflected my experience with him. Flat affect, couldn’t focus on the shot, off center, no food, lots of sky, water and airplanes – escape routes.

          2. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Yes, he is very much like a child when it comes to anything entertainment related. Pop culture and nostalgia too. Everything is from the 80’s when he was a kid and in some cases also the 70’s before he was born (for example, most non orchestral music). He prefers orchestral stuff. I half-heartedly said once “Maybe someday you will write me a song”. His response was “it does not have to have lyrics does it?”

            Interesting that you would mention stunted growth. He is very passionate about anything superhero related. He does watch lots of Cartoon Network shoes too like Adventure Time, Stephen Universe and other anime stuff. This has never made much sense to me as he seems to have a higher level of intelligence despite this. There are many instances he seems like an “old soul” who is wise beyond his years. I am 5 years older than him and I cannot even tell the difference based on my interactions with him. In some ways he seems to surpass me if you know what I mean (and I consider myself of average intelligence). But yeah an “old soul” and “kid” combo kind of swirled together if that makes sense.

            Narc personality traits or not, whatever he is, he’s the most fascinating person I have ever known.

            Yeah he never replied much to anything I shared. But he did always read it. He never misses a beat.

            Food issues? Interesting you mentioned that. At the start of things I never saw him eat much in front of me. He would have his coffee and maybe a cookie or 2 (that I used to bake for him). Later on he would tell me that he does not like to eat in front of people unless he is “very close to them”. I used to buy him his favorite candy and rather than tear into it he would put it aside and calmly say “it will be gone by tomorrow”. He will occasionally have a meal with me but it is usually something small. I do not think he has an eating disorder but if he has gone back and forth with losing lots of weight and gaining it back. Before I met him he was really thin. Now he is definitely heavier but I never really minded. Not sure though if he has an eating disorder.

            As far as Instagram and other social media it’s generally selfies of him and his older daughter (not his baby son)….or the occasional selfie of himself or pics with his coworkers. He is not a very frequent poster though….less than 8 pictures a year and up until this summer he had not posted anything in over a year.

            It is intriguing to me too. Odd but intriguing. I am always dissecting behavior wondering what is real and what isn’t. I mean I get that they pretend but surely something(s) must be real, for example the superheroes and music stuff.

          3. SMH says:

            FOTS, Sounds like yours might have some body image issues?

            I think the real stuff is what we only glimpse but by that I mean the weaknesses. The pop culture stuff you speak of is all surface, right? Like mine with boating – the only leisure activity he ever mentioned. I posted a picture of me on a yacht this past summer in case he looked at my FB – my boat is bigger than yours!! Haha.

            The real stuff is for IPPS because it shows vulnerabilities and requires trust. They don’t trust us not to poke holes in them because they are not giving any loyalty or support so they do not expect any in return.

            Mine would also generally only have coffee with me (black, as narcissists prefer black coffee). Whenever I would mention food he would reject whatever it was – totally innocuous things. He would say he was allergic or he didn’t like it or something along those lines. When he mentioned food it was only to complain about having to eat something weird or a bad tummy while he was traveling, etc. I became fascinated early on by this food thing because he wouldn’t even let me make him a sandwich, so I did pay attention…

            Maybe food was symbolic – meant for family and friends? Meant intimacy? I dunno but I sure found it bizarre. I have no relationship to food at all. To me food is to stay alive and has no special significance – but to a lot of people it is a highly charged subject.

            Mine is not a frequent IG poster either. Maybe once a month, though I have not looked for ages. I believe his kids made him do it or IPPS did so that when he was traveling he would have to post where he was – a way for the family to stay connected when he was away. For me, that was also a way to track him (I did tell him, but not when I was doing it). The whole IG thing was so weird but it would take a book length treatise to write about it…you would not have been able to tell that he and IPPS were a couple from IG or FB (hers).

            Anyway, all of what we are talking about here makes me think about the control issues that narcissists have – that control extends to their bodies, to fundamental interactions and to really minor things. Again reminds me that we are not dealing with regular people and that it must have to do with brain wiring because otherwise how could they all be so similar down to the small things we are discussing here?

          4. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Interesting. And yes I too have noticed the intricacies right down to the slightest details too. Another thing that stuck out was his contradictions with whether or not he drank alcohol. One time he would tell me that had too much to drink at work during lunch when his anxiety was getting the better of him. Then another time he told me that he did not drink any alcohol because he was always worried of becoming addicted to it. Then another time we were at dinner and he ordered a Bourbon. Straight! So odd.

          5. SMH says:

            FOTS, Another control/vulnerability/body issue? Very interesting.

            I haven’t given alcohol much thought but maybe MRN was a fairly heavy drinker. On several occasions he contacted me drunk or told me a drinking story (12 shots at a workplace event – 12 shots? A middle aged man?). IPPS also seemed to drink a lot – she’d post pics of cocktails/drinking during the day. I am not a big drinker at all- MRN and I only drank together a few times and not much – but maybe both of them are alcoholics and that is the ‘secret’? I could never figure out what he was hiding otherwise because they seemed to lead a pretty conventional life.

      4. Lori says:


        The food the has to do with showing vulnerability. To be hungry or need food is one of the most vulnerable states you can be in which equates to weakness.

        Hers the real crack a lot of the have problems going to the bathroom when you are around or can’t be around or know when you go to the bathroom. I have read that many times and both my Narcs had this the lesser much more than the mid range

        1. SMH says:

          Lori, makes sense about the vulnerability. Both narcs (Lesser and MRN) had food issues. Lesser also had body image and digestion issues – all those repressed feelings!

        2. windstorm says:

          This cracked me up! Not that I at all doubt the veracity of what you said, but that it is the exact opposite of my Pretzel!

          He has zero inhibitions and seems oblivious to other people’s opinions. The first thing he does at my house (after soaking up how much the dogs love to see him) is to go through all my cabinets and refrigerator looking for food. He also refuses to use my Japanese toilet and instead goes outside in my driveway behind my SUV, which he calls the “outdoor urinal.” Lol!

          I think his sense of entitlement trumps any inhibitions he ever had! Rather a relief to know that everyone’s narcs are not like this!

          1. SMH says:

            That’s funny, Windstorm.

            HG, you need a post on the narcissist and food (or maybe the narcissist, intake and elimination).

          2. HG Tudor says:

            I would but I’ busy eating this delicious banquet the minions have prepared but some fool has forgotten the finger bowl so I cannot type for too long otherwise the keyboard will become dirty.

          3. SMH says:

            Good to know you eat at your computer like a normal person.

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Ok, I’ll bite. What in the hell is a Japanese toilet? Please tell me you named it Dumpling.

          5. jenna says:


            Even I was wondering what a japanese toilet is!

          6. windstorm says:

            OMG! A Japanese toilet is one of the greatest things ever! It is like a high tech bidet. Heated seat, washes you with warm water, dries you with warm air, even pulls thru and deodorizes the air so there is no smell. Then it periodically cleans itself, as well. I don’t understand why they have not caught on here in America. It’s a piece of technology i could no longer live without. I’d rather live without a microwave oven. They are expensive, but worth every penny!

          7. HG Tudor says:

            I have minions perform those tasks and they do not require payment either.

          8. WiserNow says:

            That’s TMI HG… (too much information) 😁

          9. MB says:

            I worked for a company with a Narc CEO. As time went on and he made more and more money, he had other people do more and more for him. We had a joke around the office that he would be hiring for somebody to wipe his ass if anybody wanted to apply!

          10. Lou says:

            Toilets are a good souvenir I have from Japan indeed. One of my narcs loved them. I still laugh at the memory of hearing him having fun with them.

          11. WiserNow says:

            Ha ha, I didn’t know that about Japanese toilets. Seriously, there’s always something eye-opening to learn on this blog, and it’s not only about narcs and empaths!

          12. NarcAngel says:

            Japanese dumpling.…You dump in it.…wah wah…

            Well you must be the Belle of the Ball out there in the woods with your fancy coogie car wash. Take care not to dry on high. You wouldn’t want to get chapped lips.

          13. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha, ha! Yeah, I very well may be the only person in my county with a Japanese toilet! Which I just don’t understand why they haven’t caught on here in the US. They’re easy to install and so much superior!

            The Japanese have person hygiene down. My son’s apartment in Japan had a separate bathing room with half of it a huge, open shower (that my grandkids would have had a blast playing in!). The other half had a monstrous 3 foot deep, computerized soaking tub that easily would fit two large people. It kept the water at whatever temperature you programmed for however long you wanted. When you were finished, you flicked a switch and the entire room dried itself. That way there was no moisture for fungus to grow.

            Too costly and impractical to put a bathing room in my cabin, but I’ve got my wonderful Toto toilet!!

          14. NarcAngel says:

            That bathroom (more like spa) sounds a dream. Excellent for watersports and no need to hose it down.

          15. jenna says:

            NA and windstorm,


          16. windstorm says:

            No kidding all 4 of my daughter’s kids could have played under that shower or had a blast in that tub!

          17. MB says:

            WS, that tub sounds heavenly! Soaking in a bubble bath with a glass of wine is one of my most favorite things!

          18. MB says:

            NA, “chapped lips” 😂

      5. Lori says:

        Mr. Lesser had no problem with it regarding himself but he never and I mean never wanted to know if I had to go to the bathroom. It literally grossed him out to think of it.

        That actually shows how they think of you as an appliance. Appliances don’t need to go to the bathroom and they do not fart! Omg a fart would lead to permanent disengagement lol

        1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

          LMAO about a permanent disengagement coming after farting!! Hahahahaha!!! I fart and burp ALL the time in front of Piano boy. He finds it funny. I usually rate the burps or farts on a scale of 1 to 10 also. He would laugh uproariously.

          However he never returned the sentiment which I now see is odd. You are onto something there….

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Maybe he can’t fart in key.

          2. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Narc Angel…
            LMAO! You are on a roll today! 😆

          3. MB says:

            I find this whole burping and f***ing (hate that word!) thing very odd. How can you have sexy time after that? How do you segue from a burp that’s a perfect 10 to intimate relations? Not judging. I think it’s wonderful that you are comfortable enough to be yourself. I don’t see myself EVER getting that comfortable though.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            I dislike that word also

          5. SMH says:

            Trump/trumping would be perfect here

        2. NarcAngel says:

          OMG. Is THAT all it takes?
          I wish you’d have said sooner!
          You’ve cured narcissism with a can of beans.

          (I’m joking-not mocking just to be clear).

          1. Clarece says:

            Ha ha NA!
            A can of beans…or dare I say it…maybe period sex too? lol

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Do you mean the red rocket causes internal terrorism resulting in air biscuits?
            I don’t like the word farting either. Anyone for anal aeration?
            Sorry. No need to reply. I was just talking out of my ass.

          3. MB says:

            NA, you’re killin it today! If I didn’t know better, I’d think it was Fun Fuel for all Friday.

          4. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            “A can of beans…or dare I say it…maybe period sex too? lol”

            Hahahaha!!! Been there, done that. Period sex doesn’t phase them. Well in my experience anyway.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Rainbow kiss

          6. Supernova DE says:

            Earn those red wings!!

            Haha my husband has no problem with it, but I can’t see Mr. Cerebral going anywhere near a menstruating female!

          7. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Oh good grief HG….I had to look that one up on Urban Dictionary. Yeah, I never did that, thankfully. There was plenty of snowballing that went on though. Piano Pants really enjoyed tasting himself.

            Aannnnnd I have revoked my TMI pass for the day now I am sure. Thank you, thank you I will see myself out. LMAO….

          8. MB says:

            I didn’t need to know what snowballing was either FOTS! I’m obviously very much in the dark. I can say with absolute CERTAINTY that my husband would rather die than engage in either! He would puke at the mere mention!

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Try Lebanese Breakfast, German Tightrope and Turkish Snowcone

          10. MB says:

            My curiosity made me do it. And it is apparent that I need some education in this department anyway. I have wondered what it meant, “the only unnatural sex act is one you can’t perform”. Your teaching knows no bounds, Sir.

          11. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Okay I had to look up all of those. Oh my Gawd…..and I thought snowballing was ridiculous! HG you are utterly hilarious. Have you tried any of those? Inquiring minds (aka: mine) would love to know.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            You looked them up? The Feds will be kicking your door in, in three, two, one….

          13. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Hahahahahahaha!! Yes I did look them up. I am not scared to look anything up. Like the meme says, I need one of those medical alert bracelets that says “delete my browser history”. 😳😂

          14. windstorm says:

            “I need one of those medical alert bracelets that says “delete my browser history”

            Never heard that one! Cracked me up! 😝

          15. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Thank you. LOL. I try my best! 😊

          16. MB says:

            Oh no! I looked them up too. Curiosity killed the cat AND MB!

            My guess is, FOTS, there’s not much HG hasn’t tried in his quest for fuel.

          17. Clarece says:

            I somehow missed this part of the thread earlier. So HG, did you share that Lebanese breakfast or was it all for you? Lol
            I had to look these up. Still couldn’t find the German Tightrope but I think I’ll manage the next half of my life oblivious just like the first half.

          18. 2SF says:

            Clarece believe me.. you do not want to know 💩

          19. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha

          20. Clarece says:

            I believe you 100% 2SF and am really fine with never knowing about the Germans and their tightropes. lol

          21. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            This is what I found….IF you’re curious… 😳


          22. Clarece says:

            FOTS! I’m going to need a very stiff drink to get this image out of my head so I can sleep tonight.

          23. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            I’m sorry!!!! I know I’m horrid. Nothing phases me. Then again I have a morbid and twisted sense of humor so…..

            My bad though!! Just dream about unicorns eating skittles or some shit like that (pun not intended)

            Ahhhh I just don’t know when to stop! 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️

          24. Clarece says:


          25. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Sorry MB!!! If it was not for Piano boy I never would have known what that even was. All I know is he told me he saw it in a porno. 😳

          26. MB says:

            It’s ok FOTS. A little education never hurt anybody. I’m just a vanilla country girl still shocked by the ways of the world.

          27. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            It’s okay MB. I was too until I met Piano boy. I had only been with one other person in that way. And that was, as you refer, very “vanilla”. I guess you could say Piano boy expanded that vastly for me.

          28. MB says:

            It takes a narcissist to broaden our horizons FOTS. Just another public service they provide. 😊

          29. jenna says:


            ‘Public service’ lol!
            And public it would be considering how often they switch partners or ‘switch it up’ lol!

          30. MB says:

            You can say a lot of things about them, but you can’t say it wasn’t a wild ride!

          31. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Indeed it does….

          32. Clarece says:

            Never phased my ex-husband. In fact, I’d be the one to say let’s give it a few days, but I’m also not totally opposed. However, I met JN at my office once for a spontaneous quickie there and when he found out that was going on, his face turned white as a ghost. For all the talking he did on all the taboo things he wanted to do, the most basic one to tackle first and he was hands off.
            Anyways if anyone is a fan of the musical comedy “Crazy Ex Girlfriend” on the CW, here is Rachel Bloom’s famous “Period Sex” song.

          33. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Yeah I guess Piano boy and JN differed in that because Piano boy was game. What is it about meeting at the office for quickies? OMG add that one to the Narc textbook. I think so far we marked territory in every single therapy room in his office. (he works at a PT clinic)….and even built a sex fort on the floor out of pillows. Ah fun times to reminisce over as I sit on this damn shelf now. To use the word “addicted” is the understatement of the century.

          34. NarcAngel says:

            Just remember a lot of offices have cameras…………especially careful if they own the business.

          35. MB says:

            I thought the same thing NA. I was more concerned with the possibly of him losing his job. How would he explain that to the wife?

          36. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            There is always a risk but I doubt it. I scoped out the place and saw no cameras at all. Unless he put a hidden one somewhere which I doubt. is family man church facade is very important. As I think back to when he said “just remember if anyone asks how we know each other, we are bible study partners”. Another time it was (as we were outside going our separate ways) “Now give me your best Christian hug!” (eye roll)

          37. NarcAngel says:

            MB and FOTS
            I didn’t mean that someone else would see them necessarily. The risk might be less to them and more to the victim if he kept and used the tapes for his own use and/or as a threat. No one thinks of these things in the moment of course.

          38. MB says:

            Oh no FOTS! Not the Christian side hug. That’s not a hug. If you’re gonna hug me, HUG me cause you’re getting hugged back sunshine!

          39. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Haha, yeah no. I did no such thing. I gave him a regular hug and I also snuck a kiss too.

          40. Clarece says:

            I also think companies that deal with a lot of walk in traffic have more security cameras and they are usually at entrances and exits. When I worked for the law firm and another larger company, that’s where security cameras were to see who was coming and going. Managers never had them in their offices.

          41. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Nope no cameras, least not any ones installed by the company’s owner. LOL, that was the first question I asked the very first time he invited me to his office after hours. If he had any hidden cameras well….I am just going to put my fingers in my ears and say “la la la” on that one. He is pretty hellbent on maintaining his family facade so I do not think he would be so careless. But hey it is always a risk but I am pretty sure I have nothing to worry about. Now the naughty media I used to text him….well that is another story. He insisted he deleted everything but we all know that they never do.

          42. Clarece says:

            No worries NA! There are no cameras in my private office.

          43. HG Tudor says:

            Or so you think!

          44. Clarece says:

            Not think. Know. I work with the Landlord on our Suite in our building for security. No cameras in my office. Period. Open hallways, yes. My office can be as private as my bedroom. Are you done bustin’ my chops? haha

          45. HG Tudor says:

            It’s easy to install a camera without someone knowing.

          46. Supernova DE says:

            Along the lines of hidden cameras…HG are there now apps available to install spyware on phones (to have access to texts, social media messages, photos, control the camera, listen to surroundings etc) that can be done remotely? As in, you don’t have to have access to the phone physically?
            My phone has been acting weird…scared the MMRN has cracked it somehow….yikes!!

          47. HG Tudor says:


          48. Supernova DE says:

            Ok now I’m really paranoid. You have to have the phones passcode or something right ?!
            Also, only IPPS or CIPSS is worth tracking and spying on….right? (I say hopefully…)

          49. Clarece says:

            Be that as it may, there is not a camera in my office.

          50. HG Tudor says:

            You don’t know for sure!

          51. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Ohhh mah Gawddd!! The back and forth bantering. Get a room, you two! LOL. 😆😆😆😆

          52. Clarece says:

            Huh?!?! Lolll

          53. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Ignore me. I’m just in a frisky mood. 🤦🏻‍♀️

          54. Clarece says:

            You’re easy on the foreplay lingo FOTS! 😜 Takes a bit more than stashed office cameras to get the blood flowing for me. Lol

          55. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Bwahahahahahahaha!!!! It was not so much as the discussion about office cameras per se but more so rather the memories of getting down in Piano boy’s office which dredged up memories, made me miss him and put me in a somewhat nympho mood. LOL.

          56. Clarece says:

            Did you put one in my office on some covert trip to the US over the summer?
            Didn’t think so.
            I control this aspect for the company. There are not cameras within the private offices. There is no need based on what is out for the exterior of the building and size / location of where we are at.
            You are cracking me up with this!

          57. HG Tudor says:

            You are missing the point. A camera can stand alone and send feed without being wired into a closed system. They are also very discrete. Someone could enter your office when you are not there, place a camera and you would be none the wiser. If someone wanted to do it, it can be done.

          58. Clarece says:

            I understand that completely and what you were implying. I watched Homeland Security with Claire Danes. I know how it’s done. (hahahahah, jk).
            I do get your point. My point to you is there is NO ONE interested enough in me or what we do in our company that would go to the length to install a camera.

          59. MB says:

            Clarece, There’s no camera in my office either. 99.99% sure. But…I’m not ensnared by a narcissist either. (Nor are you.)

            You know what that psycho Dirty John did. After reading ‘Escape’, I was really creeped out at the things HG outlined as far as trackers and cameras that you need to sweep for. He absolutely has advanced knowledge of these things and disseminates to keep us safe.

          60. windstorm says:

            You’re more trusting than me. I was always worried about cameras/recording devices in my own home. I’d never trust a public place or business.

          61. Clarece says:

            I trust because I know the environment I am in. Lol Any company I worked for with over 50 employees had way more security cameras and mirrors.
            I’ve been with a small, family owned business for 11 years. We lease a large 3-office suite in a building. The Landlord has security at Entrances /Exits /Hallways. It’s up to the tenants to provide their own security within their office suites.
            We do not have walk in traffic. It is my best friend and myself running her parent’s company. A family I’ve known now for over 20 years. It really is “home away from home” for us there.
            Her and I would decide if we wanted additional security. That is how I emphatically can say there are no hidden cameras in my office. Lol
            Otherwise I would exert more caution. The larger companies I worked for, a quickie rendezvous would be out of the question.

          62. windstorm says:

            I understand what you’re saying. Perhaps I am just more paranoid. I didn’t trust my own family not to have hidden recording devices. Even if I totally trusted my coworkers, I wouldn’t trust their families not to have planted something, or even friends of their family members.

            I’m glad you don’t have such a low view of humanity.

          63. Clarece says:

            Awww WS! I don’t think you have a low view of humanity. I think you are wise and intuitive. I think I was pretty protected and sheltered most of my life, so that has its pros and cons.

        3. Windstorm says:

          I’ve never been around lessers except rarely and always in public. Having a good laugh now imagining your lesser at my daughter’s house where someone has been in potty training continuously for 4 years! Everyone’s potty usage is known to everyone else as an example and there is always someone needing help with taking pants off or putting them on. Ha, ha! I’m sure that would be torture for him. One more reason lessers make poor fathers.

          It also makes me proud of my two narc sons who change diapers and help the little ones with the potty. No man enjoys that, especially a narc, but they always step up and do their part.

      6. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi gabs….hope youve been doing well. When you asked your narc if one day hed write you a song and he said as long as there were no lyrics do you think there couldve been deeper meaning there? Im so used to passive aggressive behaviour id wonder if maybe he was saying he didnt want to have to put in words about you in a song. Idk maybe im reading too much into what he said. Maybe hes more into the instrumental side?
        As far as real and whats not real its a blurr bc they are collectors of traits so it is their reality. Its hard to seperate whats put on vs what is who they are at the core. I think their interests are real except in the seduction phase when they are in full mirror mode.

        1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

          To my knowledge, he has never written lyrics. He is strictly instrumental. All of his theater gigs have been instrumental. All of his wedding and party music gigs have been instrumental. He always has been an accompanist to others. So I never interpreted it to mean he could not find the words but hey you never know that could be a part of it. Maybe he just can’t ever find the words which is why he is as you stated, instrumental. He also rarely listens to music that is not orchestral, etc. He is big into collecting musical scores from major movies and tracking down hard to find footage or anything related to conduction of the orchestra, etc. I am very certain that music and superhero stuff is not a pretend interest. But hey, as you say they do mirror too.

      7. Lori says:

        OH yeah pooping farting and throwing up all off limits. Lol. So weird but the pooping jssues I have seen that on many narcissistic abuse forums

        I wonder if it has something to do with control ?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          What a load of shit.

          1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            I see what you did there!!! 😆

          2. Windstorm says:


        2. SMH says:

          My Lesser was constipated all the time. That tells you something!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Yes, he was literally full of shit.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            In that case StepNarc should have been shitting diamonds.

          3. MB says:

            Narcsite craziness!

          4. SMH says:

            Potty humour 🙂

      8. Lori says:


        Ahahaha now that is funny shit! But I swear to you I have seen this reported on other forums lol so I thought I’d “dump” it here and see if anyone else had experienced this

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I can only see it causing a stink to be frank.

      9. Lori says:

        Y’all I’m not kidding if I farted in front of him that would be the end. How the fuck can you live with someone abd never fart or have you poop stink. I kept think how in the hell can I live with this man? Lol

        Narc Angel,

        Hahaha leave it to the Codepebdent to cure Narcissism. Yep all it takes is one stomach bug. They really hate sick supply with smelly poo. Enough to send him to a passed room for weeks

      10. Chihuahuamum says:

        Re: fluffing and burping… no i do not do this bc even tho a guy may laugh and it seem ok it does change the dynamics i think to too familiar and they lose attraction. That can happen anyways but i find some men confusing in that regard theyll pretend somethings funny and cool but then the dynamics change to more of a buddy scenerio. There has to be an element of mystery left and fluffing and burping take all mystery away 😂😄

        1. MB says:

          Chihuahuamum, I agree with you! Some things you just don’t need to know about people. I’m ok with the mystery. “Fluffing” is a much better word btw.

      11. Lori says:

        Well this turned out to be shitty thread that raised A stink.

        I cannot stop laughing I’ve read this thread 3 x ahaha

        1. HG Tudor says:

          It needs a huge evacuation

          1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Aka…..AN ENEMA!!! 😆😆😆😆

          2. Clarece says:

            You are in the Best. Mood. Ever.

          3. MB says:

            I agree Clarece. Well-fueled looks good on him.

          4. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            He must be well fueled today! Either that or he’s in a kinky mood.

          5. Clarece says:

            I’d call it playful!

          6. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            I kind of like it. Intrigued yet also repulsed. LOL.

          7. Twilight says:

            So I had an idea of rainbow kiss I decided to read more, I now have an entire new image and meaning to trench mouth.

          8. Clarece says:

            Ha ha! Me Too Twilight!

            MB, got to hand it to you, I learned the Rainbow Kiss from you here on the blog yesterday.

            All I can say is, no rainbow kisses for Clarece. I’ll stick to liking my rainbows and unicorns in the sky.

          9. MB says:

            Clarece, I learned it here yesterday too when HG made the comment. I can’t take the credit for your education. I prefer my rainbows and unicorns in my fantasies too!

          10. Twilight says:


            Rainbow kiss I can deal with, it was the next one I read Hersey’s (I am not going back to make sure what it is called) gave me a new meaning to trench mouth, because if anyone has every had a patient with true trench mouth you know it smells like they just down a meal of shit. (Pardon my expression) I have seen one patient and my doctor sent me out of the room due to I was close to tossing cookies. Mean SOB to, wife was sweet as anything.

          11. Clarece says:

            Omg! Omg! Omg! Bathroom functions stay in the bathroom. Sexy time activities stay in the bedroom. Cannot handle this thread….Just…No…Just wrong on so many levels. There’s a line between the rooms and you keep the activities / functions separate.
            I hear Rainbow Kiss and think someone ate a mouthful of Skittles so they taste cherry, orange, lemon, lime and strawberry. That is my kind of Rainbow Kiss.
            End. Of. Story.

          12. jenna says:


            Right?!! I couldn’t handle it either!! I looked up rainbow kiss and snowballs or whatever and almost choked. I am curious abt the other definitions but am too scared to look!

          13. Clarece says:

            Do you remember the famous Soup Nazi episode from Seinfeld back in the day? “No soup for you! Go home”.
            I feel like the Coitus Nazi thinking “No Snowballs for You” and “No Tightropes for you”. Go Home. lol

          14. jenna says:


            Haha good one!

          15. 2SF says:

            Totally agree with you Clarece!
            But when you come to think of it, all sex is kind of ‘disgusting’, all the most needed body parts being in the pee- and poop area. Let’s be glad the brain is involved as well 🙂 Mother nature could have thought of a different design.

            This is what “The school of life” says about the ‘disgust’:

            “Hence the significance of oral sex. It sounds disgusting when we think of doing it with an inappropriate person – and that’s the point. Nothing is erotic that isn’t also, with the wrong person, revolting. But with the right person, at the precise juncture where disgust could be at its height, we feel only acceptance, welcome and permission. The privileged nature of a relationship is sealed by an act which, with someone else, would have been sickening. It’s ‘rude’ – in the best way. Normal life continually requires us to be polite. We cannot win the respect or affection of anyone without severely repressing all that is ostensibly ‘bad’ within us: our secretions, our aggression, our heedlessness, our fragility, our lust. We cannot both be accepted by society and reveal who we really are. Hence the erotic ecstasy (which is more accurately really just an emotional relief) when oral sex permits our secret self, with all its ‘bad’ and dirty sides, to be witnessed and enthusiastically endorsed by someone we like.”

          16. NarcAngel says:

            All of this sex talk reminds me of an old joke. That we know God is a man because only a man would be lazy enough to put the concession stand right next to the lavatory.

          17. Clarece says:

            I am totally down with that 2SF and agree with almost all of it. But huge, vast difference between oral sex and these terms being discussed yesterday, especially FOTS sending me the link for the German Tightrope. That is revolting no matter how attracted and primal the chemistry is for the sex. My Who-Ha is off limits to go near anyone’s excrement. lol

          18. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            I agree. Anything involving bodily fluids that is not a result of oral sex is definitely disgusting and off limits to me. Snowballing however….I did not mind doing that. I actually thought it was kind of erotic. He wanted me to not swallow but kiss and share it with him. I thought it was an odd request, but I was not uncomfortable with it. But yeah anything involving the old poop chute was off limits. Thankfully, we were always very honest and upfront about what we liked, didn’t like, would try or didn’t want to try. I used to often say “I will do anything you want. The only exception to that is nothing scatological and no back door!” And he would say “Yeah, I do not want those things either so I am glad we are on the same page!”


            Anyway, point to my rambling is I hope you can recover from me sharing that tight ripe link yesterday. Again….my bad.

          19. MB says:

            I’m with you Clarece. UTIs HURT!

      12. Lori says:

        HG Ahahaha god im laughing so hard !

      13. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        Wait a minute…..HG you pay minions to clean your ass? Did I miss something? I think I have been too involved in this thread! Then again it is distracting me from reaching out to Piano boy so…..yeah. Good job! If potty humor is what it takes then potty humor it shall be!
        I hope that last sentence does not ban me from the blog. LOL. 😆

        1. MB says:

          No, actually FOTS, he stated that they did not require payment.

          1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            MB….I do not even wanna know! LOL! 😷💩

      14. Lori says:


        I honestly don’t know how I ended up with a lesser. I am much more refined than a lesser. I am however into very masculine somewhat rugged men and he is that. I rwmember thinking during the initial seduction that he was a bit under me socially and how he’d fit with my family but the Codepebdent in me thought I can polish him up a bit. In truth, I’m probably more of a mid ranger girl but I can see where the coarseness of kesser would be confused with masculinity so I think that’s how the lesser got his hooks in me

      15. Chihuahuamum says:

        In relation to hidden cameras…i just read a true story about a well to do couple who hired a nanny and she loved working for them only to go to the bathroom one day and see in the vent a tiny camera staring back at her. She finished her shift then called her mum upset. They notified authorities. The wife apparently had no clue her husband had put it there.
        You just never know!

    2. Fuel on the Shelf says:


      “I don’t see myself EVER getting that comfortable though.”

      That is the thing. I feel comfortable enough when I am with him. But I am thinking he does not feel comfortable in the same way with me.

      Then again he did have sex with me when I was on my period and that looked like a freaking crime scene when we were done. So what the hell do I know, nothing, that’s what! LOL.

      1. ava101 says:

        There are soft tampons / sponge tampons for that …

        But aside from that: probably all related to control, too.
        As … the worst abuse I have ever read about was where the woman had no privacy AT ALL anymore. Like, no door to the toilet, etc.

        1. MB says:

          Ava101, yes no privacy is dehumanizing and abusive. I never thought about that. I guess anything can be turned into a way to gain fuel.

          As for period sex, I don’t have to think about it anymore due to the handy dandy hysterectomy I had some years back. Best. Thing. Ever. (But it does sound like there are some here that may be thankful for the suggestion!)

      2. MB says:

        FOTS, I do get the whole comfortable, non judgement zone. I know what you mean by that. I think the period sex must be a man in general thing. I don’t think Narcs are the only ones that will take it any way it’s offered. I could’ve lived the rest of my life not knowing what a rainbow kiss was though.

        1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

          I had told him I was on my period and figured he would be like “no way”. But then it happened. I felt self conscious about it despite wanting him very much. I kept apologizing for the mess. We used a ton of towels and showered afterwards and I was still apologizing. He kept reassuring me it was okay and he SEEMED sincere. Then again he is a sexual monster so it does not surprise me…..

        2. WhoCares says:

          MB – Yah. What you said.
          …it was a very *educational* day, yesterday, on Narcsite.

      3. ava101 says:

        I am not looking those terms up, I will live quite happily without knowing what they mean. ;D

        Yeah, MB, I am sure that’s a relieve in some ways, look after your health though, there can be changes in the body when there are any changes with any organs.

        Most narcs I’ve been with would have run into the opposite direction, too. I bet, HG normally would, too, but he has mentioned before that he would do a lot of things for fuel.

        1. MB says:

          Thank you for your concern Ava. That is sweet. Believe me, it had to go! I’m much better off (alive) without it. I’m grateful I had my children and was finished with it.

        2. windstorm says:

          Wise move, Ava101. I wish I hadn’t looked up those terms. Unfortunately you can’t ever unsee something. Just being reminded of the rainbow kiss makes me about lose my breakfast!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            If that’s the case WS there are terms for that too!

          2. windstorm says:

            Yes, HG. I know some of those terms. Lol!

            Sometimes I just read the urban dictionary and ponder how cultures here in the US can be so different from mine. 😄

          3. MB says:

            WS, amazing to me what people find erotic. Each to his own, but there are enough ways to catch disease as it is. I didn’t “see” anything. Luckily, I just read it. Keep your breakfast down!

          4. MB says:

            The Feds are coming for you too Windstorm!

          5. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha! I’m just a poor, old, innocent grandma. I’ve got no worries!

      4. Kathy says:

        I’m not sure what I just stumbled upon but the rainbow kiss and the people on narcissist websites being pooped upon is too
        much to take!

  15. DebbieWolf says:

    “Wear something hot”

    I like to do that.

    But anyone tells me what to wear (and it has been done on a number of occasions) that’s simply the end. Straight up.

    It’s a deal breaker.
    It always has been but even more so now.

    I’ve many deal breakers now.
    And frankly I relish them.
    Let them bring on their failed attempts to conquer with their worn out supposedly tried and tested tools.

    The shark that scents blood in the water, that one trick pony that can’t walk on land
    Is no match for a wolf’s multitude of senses on land but who can also swim.

    A new guy I was once chatting to who seemed really ok, he said one or two things that I didn’t like about women and their place, then asked me to wear a sexy dress on the upcoming date… I was already going to do so.

    However this final remark on top of a couple of the others in this surprise conversation might have well have been a bucket of water over me.

    I gently put the phone down and never spoke to that person ever again.
    I couldn’t believe he said that to me when I didn’t even know him and we were arranging a date.. years ago now.

    He wasn’t going to get strawberry ice cream either that night, he was going to get a knickerbocker glory of a treat but as soon as he said that he took the element of surprise completely away..amongst other things including my desire obviously.

    You can’t give a surprise gift to a man when he’s already ordered it before you walk out the door.
    And besides, he didn’t deserve it now.


    Grrrrr lol 🐾

    1. Lori says:

      Narc 2 I call Mr. Lesser was completely psycho about a certain.aspect of my grooming. He wanted it done at a certain interval and it had to be done that day not one day later or you could tell he was annoyed

      1. DebbieWolf says:


        Not one day later or else…
        Hmm…🤔 A power hungry wannabe.
        Let’s hope he got a bum sack and crack wax in a timely fashion himself…
        … Oh it’s types like these with hairy back stubble problems they’ve kept hidden… Pocks and spots in various places… And if not just imagine it.. and furthermore.. these people look like anybody else when they sit on a toilet.

        They are no great shakes in themselves and they need to get a grip on reality… Never mind us.

    2. Liberated says:

      I wish I figured that out, and figured out what he is when he made me buy a new skirt in the middle of the work day! I had to change my skirt or we couldn’t eat lunch. Why did I put up with that?

      1. DebbieWolf says:


        Perhaps you probably didn’t think you was putting up with anything…

        You are probably very sexy and you was just being sexy thinking that it was pleasing and all part and parcel of being together… Without realising it was controlling, manipulative and him displaying power and ownership.

        Don’t be hard on yourself for being feminine and agreeable and fun.
        At the time you were not to know.

        It really is too bad but some people feel powerful by making us dress this way or that way…I mean there are toys for that and most of us grow out of playing with them.

      2. NarcAngel says:


        Thats the million dollar question most would like answered.

    3. amanda SNapchat says:

      I find it so hot to be told what to wear. My greater narc would always tell me hahaha… I don;t kniw why I did not see it was such a narc thing :'(

      1. DebbieWolf says:

        I don’t mind discussing what to wear and saying what do you think to this or which would you prefer this one or that one or which one looks better do you think? excetera…. It’s when it’s said and done in the wrong spirit.. in the spirit of entitlement and control.. but outside of that there’s nothing wrong with saying where am I going on this surprise etc should I wear heels or boots? do I need a big coat? do I need a little jacket? What types of things should I bring?….That’s if it’s a surprise which I have often had..
        it’s just when it’s outside of that parameter and not meant with a good heart, I guess that goes for a lot of stuff they do to and at us.

      2. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        Same here. My MRN never told me what what to wear. It was merely “suggested” (probably due to his “Mr Polite” nature). But I always accepted his suggestion or opinion. For example I would say randomly “choose a color for my outfit tomorrow: blue or orange” and he would choose “blue”. I would then wear something blue. One other time he liked a pic of me on Instagram wearing a certain pair of shorts. When we talked on the phone he says “you look hot in those shorts, when you see me please wear them”. So I did. At the time I had no idea it was a narc thing as well.

      3. Liberated says:

        I saw it as a relationship thing. You know it’s just clothes, why argue? Even if we were at work! Though I’m pretty sure mine isn’t a Greater. He didn’t make any career progress at at and was asked to leave my old firm. I didn’t recognize it at the time, but while he was unemployed my career surpassed his (same field) and the day he found out, his face wasn’t pretty to look at. And subsequent actions were intended to wound me.

        But again, I didn’t know or figure it out at the time. I excused it all as him being unemployed, forgot what I couldn’t excuse and justified, minimised and rationalised the rest.

    4. Mercy says:

      DebbieWolf, crazy how just a few short comments like that can completely turn you off. I’m this way too. I was on dating sites for a little while but when the guys would talk too much they completely ruined it for me.

      1. DebbieWolf says:


        yes it’s amazing how justa few comments can put you off but the guy hadn’t just said that. during this particular conversation he said some other things about women and how their place was in the home etc and didn’t agree with certain things to do with women in certain roles and whateve. . just a few things and then he came out with the wear something sexy routine.
        So that was it.
        It’s some years ago now that and I had more or less forgotten it because I didn’t go out with him but I just remembered it when I read the article it just stood out in my mind.

        1. Mercy says:

          DebbieWolf, haha a woman’s place is in the home? Yes you’re right. He had to go.

    5. ava101 says:

      I had the same once with a guy (telling me what to wear), I was only chatting with, talking about going dancing / before meeting for the first time …
      So, I was making light and fun about it …. and that was the end of that, he never wrote again. ;D

  16. Supernova DE says:

    Ugh I can totally see MMRN acting this way. I have been in both the CIPSS role as well as the SIPSS role in this little drama with him. He’s been laying in bed texting me and said, “my wife is here irritating me.” Damn I always felt so bad for her.
    Also had a truly terrible thought the other day, what if he rapes her? What if he abuses his children? Yikes, that’s a good thought to return to when the ET is hitting me.

    1. Lori says:

      Have you moved back and forth between those 2 roles? I feel maybe I did and didn’t realize it at the time. I’m curently. sipss in some sort of corrective devaluation as im only partially blocked but all texts are ignored,

      I finally reached the point after about 5 months that not contacting him at all hurt far less than contacting him and receiving no response so I was finally able to stop. I’m at the 6 week mark. I think in about another 2 weeks I’ll be ok. 2 to 3 months of no contact really helps to make the addiction subside

      1. Supernova DE says:

        Yes I definitely moved between those two roles. I didn’t know why it felt different when it was happening of course, but now I can see it. And it was different than being on the shelf. He’d shift and suddenly talk about how “difficult” or “crazy” it would be to blend our families and get very very aggressive about getting more time with me (both phone and text as well as face to face time).

        Then after a time he’d suddenly shift to “normal” which I think was SIPSS painted white and mostly off the shelf.

        When on the shelf he’d typically warn me it was coming “I just can’t have any distractions right now” or “I need to shut off my social media and give my family my full attention for a while” etc. and then I really would not hardly even get more than a one word crumb during those times. And those are the times that were awful for me and I don’t want to repeat how I felt.

        1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

          I was told very similar sentiments as well. Ughhhh….

      2. Fuel on the Shelf says:

        I have no idea. I have never been IPPS. I would say IPSS but I have only met a handful of distant friends/music colleagues of his, no one else and he is paranoid about being seen out and about with me. So more of a DLS. I see him about twice a month.

      3. Lori says:

        Supernova DE

        This last year has been awful for me. The shelfing started this time last year and what I thought was a discard when he told me he was “talking “ to someone else. I realize now that this is his pattern. When he met me he fessed up that he had been talking to another woman but nothing had happened and he wasn’t interested in her anymore. There was also a “friend” that he saw a bit but claims he never touched her. I do know for a fact he tortured both of them with me. He subtly made sure they both knew who I was. Now I see it’s all being done to me.

        But yeah, I remember the days of Canipss and all the discussion of how we were gonna blend families the logistics of it all geographically and where might be the best choice to live. Then after a fight it was we can not have a relationship now too much has happened. Weve both done things we can’t get past. Wtf ! What? You mean like have a fight? Yet still the relationship continued until it didn’t and here I am 6 months later post shelf , silent treatment and blocking. One day I just stopped texting. I realized that the silent treatment was worse than no contact. You can’t give someone who isn’t contacting you the silent treatment

        1. Supernova DE says:

          You’re right, you can’t give someone the silent treatment if they aren’t trying to talk to you. Which is exactly why you’ve been getting passive Hoover’s, he’s trying to get you to try, to check, etc. have you counterblocked and gone NC or are you in a holding pattern right now?

          Mine was cerebral and an anchor, so when I say CIPSS, it really just means whoever is in the top spot among the IPSS at that time, I don’t think he will leave his wife. At least not for the next five years. At that time he will have a planned change in careers and the “stable wife and kids” type facade will not be as important anymore.

          I received countless corrective devaluations. Often more than one a day. I did not behave, I wouldnt take him at his word, I always called him on his shit. Even through text I always knew when he was lying and he hated that haha. Aaah but my threats to go were always empty and he could Hoover me back sooo easily (arrrgh angry at myself in retrospect!)
          He learned over time that staying silent was the way to get me to spill good fuel. I deserve better than being ignored (or, you know, you leaving in the middle of a sexting session even though you are STILL active on messenger lol) and it’s probably the one thing that will send me into an angry frenzy. The cold shoulders and silent treatments were endless.

          Honestly I’ve no idea how he went more than three years without ditching me. It actually makes me nervous because I would provide seriously good residual benefits toward the prime aims
          (As IPPS) and if that’s the reason he stuck around, it’s also the reason he’ll try to come back.

          I agree with you that the holidays will be tough. I don’t think I’ll contact him but I think the chance of receiving a Hoover is pretty high, he’s hoovered close to holidays at least four other times. Actually, now that I think about it, it’s a pattern that I get pissed at him in the fall and stop contacting him (cause I guess he’s either shelving me or being a dick in the fall) and he Hoover’s somewhere between thanksgiving and New Years. I better soak my heart in a bucket of ice and get ready!

          I do know how you feel Lori. Maybe not exact since I’m not sure you are married, but I was long distance IPSS also.

      4. Lori says:

        Sipernova DE

        I am married. This went on for 3 years! What was the longest ST you got prior to this one mine was 2 months and prior to that about 2 weeks.

        The new ipss is completely opposite of me. Kind of a wrong side of the tracks girl. I am not that at all. I am an educated professional witb a good job.

        I was definitely candidate ipss he was talking about the timing of when this would happen etc.. and he was literally in contact with me all day.

        We’re you shelfed for a new ipss and did he tell you?

      5. Supernova DE says:

        It’s very difficult to say. Because of the distance, and both being married with careers and children, our main communication was text. And communications were intermittent because of the same circumstances. We might talk 3-4 days in a row very frequently, then not talk for more than a week. Or interact a few hours one evening sexually, then not interact for two weeks after that. At least that was how it was for the first two years or so. Honestly that was all good, I’m sure I got devaluations, but nothing bad enough that I thought much of it. Because of that, I can’t reliably tell what was shelving, what was silent treatment, and what was just being busy with other stuff.

        I think I received a three month prior warning silent treatment (ie. I wounded him one evening when I didn’t respond to his insinuation about a sexcation with him the way he would have liked. The next day I texted just to say hello, he sent me a one liner about needing to concentrate on his family. Before I could even reply he had shut off his FB). I could have contacted him via another route, but I chose not to, as at that time I thought his reasoning was legit, and I was really pissed about how he was so abrupt etc.

        That could have been a shelving too, its hard to say, but I know I made him mad the night before because he left me high and dry while sexting. That was definitely a pattern, and I see now it was an intentional way of punishing me.
        During those three months, I was so irritated with him that my attitude toward him changed. I was less inclined to be so relaxed about it, I wanted to know what I was dealing with, define it, etc. I was under the impression that neither of us wanted to leave our marriage, just scratch an itch, but I wanted to ensure I had respect and trust. (you’re laughing right, cause its ridiculous thinking I could’ve had that)

        He came back after those three months, I was surprised, and he was surprised by my surprise haha. Battle ensued for a year. This was the period of repeated corrective devaluations. He got so much challenge fuel he couldn’t walk away, though I think he grew to hate me for not being a good girl. In the end, it backfired on him somewhat, because he can’t control the cold fury, even when I was escaping he gave the ST instead of stopping me. He ended up sequentially blocking me on different platforms. It was like a domino chain falling. Oh I blocked her on FB, she’s still not behaving, lets block on IG now, etc. etc.

        He did not change his username on the messaging app we used, and I can say with some certainty I am the only one he communicates with on that platform. So I guess I was still shelved, as it would’ve been quite easy to get a new account so I couldn’t access him there. Which I did, stupidly, even well after I had found this site and knew a lot. It was two months wasted, but I taught myself an essential lesson. That I can’t beat him, he will always be able to get to me. That I can’t cure him, no matter how much I understand him. That I want him and can’t stand him at the same time, which is why I know I can’t ever stop being vigilant.

        Many would say I made a big mistake hoovering myself like that and going one more round, but I think I needed to, to come to the place where I could truly escape and not wish to go back. I get triggered now, but it honestly just feels different. I used to just be biding time until I knew I’d contact him, it wasn’t real NC. Now I just try to get through it, knowing it will pass, and that over time it should happen less and less.

        Consider counterblocking him Lori. It will help knowing the possibility isn’t there anymore. You won’t check for his messages, etc. I know this is long but hope it helps to read my whole story.

      6. Lori says:


        I don’t know if to expect a Hoover or not. He did tell me once he never goes back but you know Narcs live in opposite land so…

        I’m getting there I did have him blocked for awhile but un did it as partially the curiousity was killing me. I do know it could never be the same. I often wonder what spin he’d take after telling me he was talking to someone else. I sometimes wonder if this wasn’t a giant test to see if I was truly ipps material in that he did this to his wife and she took him back but I’ve kinda ditched that theory because he hadn’t contacted me. Only these what I believe to be passive hoovers which may or may not have been him but 2 days before my birthday and 1 day after ? That would be a hell of a coincidence but possible. I simply don’t any case I haven’t fallen for it. Perhaps I’ll never hear of see him again. Eventually they do go away my first one did. Part of me says just block and be done you aren’t going back and part of me wants to see if it plays out according to the standard narc pattern and what kind of spin he would put on it.

        I just know this whole year has been kind of rough amazing how attached you become to someone miles away but we literally talked everyday sometimes many times. It started in the morning and last thing at night for years not months freakin years ugh

        1. Supernova DE says:

          I agree with what you say here word for word. When I first found this blog I was in such denial about how attached I was (emotionally and chemically) that I wasted a lot of time. But, as you say, it can and does fade if we allow it to.

          Mine swore he wouldn’t change his mind when he downgraded me to a friend. But it took about two days of being “friends” later on for him to triangulate me and take it sexual. You can’t believe him when he says he won’t come back.

          Personally I know I won’t contact him. What would I say? I have nothing left I could communicate to him. I’ve told him how much he hurts me, how much he takes me for granted, how much I care for him as a person, how much I wish I could help him feel less restless, how much I understand him, how he is able to turn me on like crazy with his words, on and on.

          Now the question is (regarding if to block and stay blocked) is what you think he could say to you? What could he say? Would it make any difference? If he said he loved you and wanted to be with you…you’d run the other direction cause you don’t want to be IPPS. If he told you he can’t live without your body…you know it’s a lie and he actually doesn’t care what body is beneath his. Absolutely anything he says (especially during a big seductive benign hoover) is going to be complete bullshit.

          THAT is what I remind myself of when I feel curious and want to unblock.

      7. Lori says:


        Did you reach out and receive silence ?

        1. Supernova DE says:

          I did not reach out during the three month hiatus. So again, hard to tell if ST vs. shelving

      8. Lori says:

        Supernova DE

        Oh my gosh I re read your comments and I had missed that he put you in the “friend” zone. That happened to me too! It was utterly ridiculous! Anyone could tell we were not “friends” many people suspected or even out right knew there was something between us and honestly he wasn’t shy about making it known. He didn’t want yo be friends. He wanted to hurt me with the friend zone. I told him friends ? That’s is perposterous!

        He’s been showing up on a couple of mutual friends pages that he knows I interact with regularly. I can’t see his comments but I know he’s there. I keep wondering if I’m reading something into that that isn’t there ?

        1. Supernova DE says:

          Yep, I was downgraded back in April after I didn’t respond as he wanted to a particular manipulation. Not knowing any better, I thought that was the end of the relationship. I had terrible withdrawals – nausea, vomiting, couldn’t sleep, couldn’t eat, shakes, etc. for 4-5 days.
          I’m quite sure he wanted me to beg to keep him, I didn’t, at least not then.

          Mine also would do weird things with his level of discretion. Sometimes he’d be so paranoid, asking me “did you delete that pic I sent?” “have you cleared your convo history?” etc.
          But then sometimes he’d call me at 1am while he was with a mutual friend and put me on speakerphone! Umm, what guy calls a woman who isn’t his wife at 1am….and she answers?! He made me so mad with that haha.

        2. Supernova DE says:

          also curious how you know he’s on those pages if you can’t see his comments

  17. Seeetest Perfection says:

    Of course he wants her to put on her blue dress, haha. This piece was the one that actually helped me awaken and decide to escape. I agree with previous comments, these insightful cases, while devastating, are truly eye-opening.

  18. DebbieWolf says:

    “Wear something hot”

    I like to do that.

    But anyone tells me what to wear (and it has been done on a number of occasions) that’s simply the end. Straight up.

    It’s a deal breaker.
    It always has been but even more so now.

    I’ve many deal breakers now.
    And frankly I relish them.
    Let them bring on their failed attempts to conquer with their worn out supposedly tried and tested tools.

    The shark that scents blood in the water, that one trick pony that can’t walk on land
    Is no match for a wolf’s multitude of senses on land but who can also swim.

    A new guy I was once chatting to who seemed really ok, he said one or two things that I didn’t like about women and their place, then asked me to wear a sexy dress on the upcoming date… I was already going to do so.

    However this final remark on top of a couple of the others in this surprise conversation might have well have been a bucket of water over me.

    I gently put the phone down and never spoke to that person ever again.
    I couldn’t believe he said that to me when I didn’t even know him and we were arranging a date.. years ago now.

    He wasn’t going to get strawberry ice cream either that night, he was going to get a knickerbocker glory of a treat but as soon as he said that he took the element of surprise completely away..amongst other things including my desire obviously.

    You can’t give a surprise gift to a man when he’s already ordered it before you walk out the door.
    And besides, he didn’t deserve it now.


    Grrrrr lol.🐾

    1. DebbieWolf says:

      It is hard to believe I was ensnared later in life.
      I can honestly say I became vulnerable following some tragedies and bereavements.
      I guess I was like an injured fawn.

      One thing I have learned:
      when the chips are down fight your way up and back without relying on anyone.
      Support is one thing but ultimately grip your own inner core with all the fortitude you can muster even if it is a drop..

      Laugh and the world laughs with you cry and you cry alone…there may be some comforters around but make sure when you are at your lowest that you do not rely excessively on another because you could be ensnared easily.. to use HGS word… Tenderized.

      It is not good when you can easily fall into the arms of an abuser.
      At the very time you need the TLC this is the time to look to inner resources or to external support that does not involve the too close proximity of others.

      Support can be given that does not involve abusing you and there are ways to find it without being in the proximity of overly enthusiastic carers.

      Of course when the chips are down and you’re absolutely broken you reach for any lifeline… Of course.

      But this is why I have learnt not to do that again.

      There is support that does not involve the physical proximity of potentially dangerous liaisons… Here for instance, on this blog, is a good example of learning and support.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Absolutely. There will always be times when we need the physical contact or comfort of another but we should make sure its a proven (over time) close and trusted source. For the most part reading is neutral in engaging your logical brain and can help you to stay objective and question the situation, where a person may be too invested and not be entirely truthful in not wanting to hurt your feelings. Or worse as you point out – take advantage of them.

        1. DebbieWolf says:


          Good point about making sure it’s a trusted source over time… That is definitely key..
          (Just to point out I can’t find my comment or your response to it now it seems to have gone off the thread..)
          So if this is received in confusion by anyone my comment here is in relation to the two that seem to be missing currently.

          (I refreshed the page a number of times cleared out cookies and cache) still missing.
          Not to worry though.
          It’s probably WordPress gremlins as usual.

  19. Rebecca says:

    HG, please do more of these ‘case studies’!! This one wiped out my last lingering doubts of what he really is…. Chillingly accurate. Thanks!

  20. Bubbles🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,

    What ????

    I think I need to stay behind class

    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  21. Tex says:


    what is the moment you narcissists feel the candidate intimate partner is embeded, ensared? Is it when the victim stops playing those standard seductive flirty games and opens up about how they really feel about you showing their inside and all the vulnerabilities?

    My narcissist always has this pattern with women – games, fun, flirtation, seduction – fun fact: at this stage women think they are in control, they play a role of seductive femme fatalle who is only playing with a narcissist (in reality they are desperate to catch him).

    And the second stage – this seductive famme fatale is miraculously tranformed into little vulnerable girl “I thought it would be just a game like with those jerks before you, but you are so different, you see me as I am, you heal my every wound, you touch my soul, it can’t be coincidence that we’ve met, we are made for each other, I am totally yours”. – this sounds itself like narcissistic BS but these women really feel that way because the narcissist manipulated and programmed them to feel that way during love bombing.

    From my observations – this is a turning point in the relationship with a narcissist. Narcissist is confident the girl is his, the golden period lasts but on the other hand – from this point everything will be worse and worse with time. One step before devaluation because narcissist now can’t help himself and needs to test the power she gave him.

  22. Sunshine says:

    Do you have anything more up-to-date about Chris Watts, other than your September article?

    1. HG Tudor says:


  23. Amanda Snapchat 2 says:

    are magnet empaths usually preferred than carrier empaths to be primary sources? Why was the carrier IPSS?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Not necessarily, it varies dependent upon the school and cadre of the narcissist.

  24. Vera says:

    I was just about to say exactly what Jenna said. Unbelievably real. Except that I wanted to know. And in spite of him being an IT jerk, always covering his tracks with myriads of passwords and incognito internet browsing, I had a good look at his messages and emails (nobody can be too careful and discard such an amount of evidence: messages, emails and telephone calls arrived at unexpected times). I despised myself for doing that but I wanted to know that I was not crazy.
    After losing a baby at four months and full blown devaluation at the same time, a shadow of my former self, jerking at every shift of his actions (the “Ian” alibi, in my case, “John”, alarmingly frequent), my survival instinct kicked in, I guess. Truth came with a price – I can still feel the humiliation, guilt and hurt for acting against everything I believed in. How can you people do these things and live with yourselves?

    1. mommypino says:

      I’m so sorry that you went through that. I’m so sorry for your loss and for having endured such cruelty while you were grieving your precious child.

    2. Kathy Mor says:

      That is besides the point Vera. Just make your peace with that. They are what they are… Now, what are you going to do about it?

      There are answers and answers and if you read HG’s books, you will understand it better. In my case, now that I know this, I can see why no contact hurts the narcissist more than any other offense you can dish out… if it is emotional. There was no love.

      Revenge must come later. For those of you who forgave and moved on, congratulations. I did not and I will not. I will not give him the easy way out. He has to pay for his own good. It will do him good to re-experience some of this traumas.
      If you think I will forgive that handicapped as hole and forget what he did to me… forget it. I am not. I am the best friend you can have. I am the worst enemy you will encounter. A high caliber one and if I am invested in it, trust me… I will use my weapons. If I cannot move the heavens, I gladly will move the Hell… and his own kind to crush that ego feeding vampire.

      I am reading HG’s books. PC is not free as he thinks… It will be done correctly and effectively… 😉 and I will enjoy every bit of it! Yum!

  25. Minoura says:

    Hello HG,

    What happens or rather how does an upper mid range narcissist feel or react if IPSS or CANIPPS outsmarted him? Say, they tell him they know his game and expose him to IPPS and maybe even a couple of friends and they go no contact on him.

    1. HG Tudor says:


  26. Liberated says:

    HG, if I’m the shelf IPSS, and we are dealing with mid-range somatic, I’ve let him know I found out about his primary IPSS whom I suspect is in the devalue stage and I told him we will never speak or see each other again, should I still expect a hoover? I would like a consultation to ascertain what he is, what stage I was in and how to GOSO.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      There is always a risk of a hoover, it is subject to the Hoover Trigger and the Hoover Execution Criteria being met. I would be pleased to assist you in greater detail through a consultation.

      1. Liberated says:

        Thank you. I would like to ascertain what he is (school and cadre) though from your very informative articles I suspect mid-range, as his career stalled sometime ago, cold fury, silent treatment, and somatic, due to his concern over physical appearances.

        I would also like to understand my situation and how much risk I put myself in by sending an emotional series of texts stating we will never speak to or see eachother again.

        I have been journaling my interactions with him and once my thoughts are in order I will make the payment to begin the consultation process.

        Given I only have a few questions, would an email consultation be appropriate at this point?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed it would

  27. mommypino says:

    HG, just out of curiosity, if someone has poor boundary assertion, are they more likely to be delegated as SIPPS than IPPS? Does it add to the probability of being choseb as SIPPS or is it more about the lack of residual benefits?

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. mommypino says:

        Thank you!

  28. jenna says:

    I’ve not read this article before but ummm, were you in the room when this happened? This is almost exactly what happened! Your skills do not cease to amaze me day after day! I can name the three empaths in my mind. Now i know what was going through mmrn’s mind. Gross!

    1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

      I have been meaning to comment that it is good to see you back! You were missed!

      1. jenna says:

        Hi Gabby!

        I have missed you too, and thank you! It’s nice to see a lovely smile on your face in your pic! I know you are still entangled with piano man, and I have some theories on that, which I will share shortly. See you later!

      2. jenna says:

        Hi gabby,

        It took me some time to put my thoughts together. I edited and re-edited and I will post now. Some pple may disagree with me, but that’s ok.

        Fuel! The answer is fuel! Why does anybody stay with a narc? Fuel.

        No matter how many times I read ‘Fuel’ I was still unable to grasp the concept until finally I looked at it from my perspective. A narc needs fuel. A non narc needs company. Right? Our need for company/companionship (doesn’t have to be romantic – can be from family, friends, coworkers, etc. ) equates to ‘fuel’ doesn’t it? We can’t be alone all the time.

        If our partner fails to provide us with what we need (loving nature- character trait, stability- residual benefit, company, companionship, friendship- fuel), he will fail us and we may look for a ‘replacement’ – someone who can satisfy the ‘prime aims’. For example, if our partner becomes a drunkard, loses his job, refuses to look for a new job, stopped being loving towards us, and acts irresponsibly, would we stay? Most likely not, for his character trait of loving is gone, residual benefits have reduced (he has no income and is a financial leech), and we do not enjoy his company (fuel) any longer. We will try to bring him back to solid ground, but if he refuses, we most likely will leave or ‘disengage’. So non narcs leave narcs because the narc has failed. Narcs leave non narcs because the non narc has failed. Where is the difference? They just cycle through people faster. We may remain friends however (or ‘hoover’).

        Another difference is that non narcs do all of this with honesty, and we don’t step all over pple to get the ‘prime aims’. We do not put up a facade, mirror, manipulate, or desire negative fuel. Also, we do not bore as fast, but we do bore eventually (eg. the 7 yr itch), but we can compromise. Our fuel need is not so great that we must seek out someone new. Narc fuel need is so great that they seek it from multiple sources.

        So, why does a person stay – for fuel (love, companionship etc.), residual benefits, character traits. Why does a person leave – due to a failure to meet these ‘prime aims’. We are not that different in our aims. The method in which we seek our aims is different. After looking at it like this, I can finally understand the concept of ‘fuel’.

        I am partly thinking out loud in this post. I apologize for redundancy.

        1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

          Your analysis is understandable and relatable. I often feel like I seek my own “fuel” from Piano Boy all the time, usually by way of his validation and attention whether it be texting, phone calls, visits, dinner together or intimate moments. Way earlier, at the start of my time on this blog, HG’s posts often had me feeling like I was the Narc!

          The only difference I saw (as you stated) is that I do not hurt others in the process. It sucks that I can be rather intense and desperate in seeking his attention. Not getting it might make me withdraw for a little while but I always return with a vengeance trying to seek it again AND trying to please and cater to his every whim. Give him the space he wants but then be there when he comes around.

          I am addicted to him just like he is addicted to his fuel.

          1. jenna says:


            Pls don’t think you are the narc because you clearly are not. However, I am starting to think that the empath is addicted not to the narc, but to the narc’s fuel (fuel meaning attention, love, validation). We just do not realize it. Like Lori stated, you could be fuelled by someone else. We all can be fuelled elsewhere. The narc provides good quality fuel, but at unpredictable frequency and quantity. Thus, we wish to escape or yearn for the golden period again when fuel was at optimum quality, frequency, and quantity.

          2. Fuel on the Shelf says:

            Yeah, that pretty much sounds like me. I addicted to his fuel. When he brings it, he brings his A game. And as a prior poster said here it is like “mainlining crack”.

      3. Lori says:


        Don’t take this wrong, but I see a lot Codepebdent behavior in you.

        Doesn’t mean you are I only see limited amounts of information but it sure seems like you have a lot of Codepebdent tendencies. What I can’t ascetain is is it’s really Codepebdency or addiction or both

        I think another Narc could fuel you easily and you’dump this guy just like that

        1. Fuel on the Shelf says:

          I have read about codependents and I don’t think that’s me… of course I could be wrong. I do think your theory has some merit.

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