Save The Children



If there is one thing which will often scupper an attempt to escape our clutches, it is the existence of children. On the one hand the existence of children created by you and our kind often results in you continuing to endure the relationship for the sake of the children rather than separate. On the other hand, even if you do decide that it is better to separate than stay with our kind, you are rarely able to truly escape because of the shared connection that exists because of the children. Even though you wish to escape the roller coaster existence of being with our kind, as an empathic person you behave fairly and recognise that the children should see their other parent and thus you either make provision or allow for contact to continue between our kind and the children which in turn means that there must inevitably remain contact between you and us. You may however take the draconian step of deciding that it is in the best interests of the children to have no contact with the narcissistic (although usually you only realise the other parent is abusive rather than narcissistic at this juncture) parent and cut all contact off. This then results in our kind turning to formal means through the courts to establish contact with the child or children again.

Your concerns in respect of the involvement of our kind in the raising of children cover numerous factors.

  1. You are concerned that our behaviour will affect the children so that they in turn become narcissists;
  2. You are worried that our behaviour leads to the children witnessing abusive behaviour towards you which will upset the children;
  3. You are concerned that our behaviour will lead to the children not receiving a stable and nurturing upbringing;
  4. You are worried that the children will be used as pawns between you and us and adversely influence so they are turned against you;
  5. You are concerned by our failing to provide emotional and financial support which will in turn impact on the children; and
  6. You are worried that our behaviours will effectively spoil what should be happy moments in childhood.

These, along with others, are legitimate concerns. It becomes especially difficult for you when you find that you face a battle between doing what is right for a child even though this may clash with what they want. They want to spend time with us but you see such time as toxic and having an influence on the child (who as a child cannot see or comprehend what is happening) which is at best unhelpful and at worst downright damaging. How do you deal with a situation where you need to do what is right and best for a child, even though they will not see this at the time? First of all, what must you understand about our attitude towards children and parenting?

  1. Children are regarded as appliances by us. There is no distinction made for the fact that they are children nor that we are their parent. We see children as appliances and devices which are extension of ourselves and therefore there to do our bidding. You should never be under any illusion that a narcissistic parent loves the child. Do not be fooled into thinking that any benign act exhibited by our kind is a manifestation of love towards a child. It is not;
  2. This pervading mind set means that children will be used in order to gather fuel. This will be done directly by obtaining fuel from them. Initially this will manifest as wanting to spoil them when we have time with them so that their positive responses to this will provide us with positive fuel. We will upset, anger and frustrate children in addition to draw negative fuel as and when it is deemed appropriate. This is not done because the positive fuel has become stale (as is the case when devaluation occurs in the context of an intimate partner primary source) but is an adjunct of wanting to achieve some other aim. The two most popular aims are control and triangulation. We will provoke a negative fuel response from children in order to exert control over them, for instance, taking a toy away or forbidding them to do something that they enjoy such as watching a certain television programme or being allowed some sweets. This reinforces our control. A child is no different from any other appliance and must be subjected to our control. This control is not exerted for the benefit of the child, for instance, stopping the child from eating sweets every day because it is unhealthy, but is only done so we can establish control. In terms of triangulation, the negative emotional response will be achieved for the purposes of triangulating you. For instance, we may suggest to the child that mummy does not love the child so it becomes upset. We only care about the reaction, not the well-being of the child. We may say that the child cannot do something on your instruction, in order to both upset the child and thus gain negative fuel and at the same time smear you through this triangulation. Thus, when negative fuel is sought from a child it arises in conjunction with the desire to control and/or to triangulate.
  3. The traits and achievements of the child are up for grabs in the same way that we steal and acquire traits from adults in order to furnish our construct and make ourselves look even more appealing. Our sense of entitlement is such that the child has only won the race, come top of the class, swum that distance, secured a place on a vacation scheme as a consequence of our brilliance. We will remind you, the child and third parties that this is the case. Repeatedly.
  4. We will smear and brief against you at every available opportunity. Irrespective of the reasons why the relationship between you and us ended, we will not rise above the desire for smearing for the sake of the children. If there is an opportunity to take a pot shot at you, it will be taken. The needs of the children do not ever come before our needs. Thus if they are upset by what we say about you, we receive fuel and do not care how it affects them. If they begin to dislike you because we suggest you are too strict, we will not counter that but rather we will cultivate this position to our advantage.
  5. Just like you, children can cause criticism to us. Rather than soak it up as a mature, well-adjusted parent would, we will lash out when there is a perceived or actual criticism of us delivered by the words and/or actions of the child. This will as ever result in the ignition of fury and the manifestation of heated fury or cold fury. We will sulk with a child, turn away from them if they want support and/or shout at them. The fact they are a child is meaningless to us. The fact we as a parent owe obligations to them to behave in a mature and responsible fashion to them does not matter because our needs come first.
  6. We have no sense of responsibility or obligation to children. A lesser narcissist will see no need to maintain maintenance payments and will be content not to see work. A greater may well make such payments, not because he cares about the children but it is done to show to everybody else how generous he is and also to make you look bad if your financial contributions are not as substantial. The payment or otherwise of financial support will be used as a carrot and stick against you throughout the duration of childhood. We will only become involved in the lives of the children if we regard there as being some kind of benefit to us. Their emotional needs, education, safety etc. are irrelevant to us. We will attend a school performance not to show support to the child so they feel happy, but to show to other parents that we apparently love and support the child, so we gain fuel and infuriate you. We regard obligations as beneath us, we have no sense of accountability, our sense of entitlement means we can do as we please, our lack of guilt or conscience means there is no mechanism causing us to adopt an alternative stance.
  7. Understand that children are pawns which will ALWAYS be used to our advantage. Whether it is to bind you to us during the golden period, to make us look good to others, to draw fuel, to exert control, to triangulate, to perpetuate abuse and so forth, our interactions with our children are governed by our needs. In the same way that our interactions with you as intimate partner, or our involvement with an inner circle friend, or our dealing with a stranger are all governed by our needs first, the same is applicable to children.
  8. Attempting to curtail our involvement with the children is seen as a criticism to us, irrespective of how morally and factually correct your action may be. That is irrelevant to us. We will use the court system for our purposes. We do not wish to spend time with our children for their sake, but instead it is for our sake. We may find it boring having them but if we know the fact they stay with us one night a week upsets and angers you, we will do it in order to draw this fuel from you and therefore we will use the court system to fight. It is not a fight for the benefit of the children. It is a fight for the maintenance of our needs – fuel, control, triangulation etc.

With this mind set of ours now apparent in our interactions with you and the children, how do you deal with us?

  1. Minimise the interaction you have with us. Establish a system for messages to be sent by e-mail or text. If this is deviated from by a telephone call, do not take the call but allow voice mail to pick up the call and then you can establish how best to respond thereafter and you will not provide fuel by being tricked into answering a call. If possible, prevent any face to face contact between you and us concerning the children. We draw the most fuel from seeing your emotional reactions face to face. Remove this (where practical) and you are denying us fuel. For instance, utilise the assistance of other family members or friends for the handover of the children until such an age as when they can use transport or walk between venues safely.
  2. Ensure all communications are to the point, business-like and contain no emotion. This again denies us fuel. Establish a five-minute rule so that you never immediately respond to our communications (when you are more likely to do so in an emotional fashion as we try to provoke you). If five minutes is too short, extend the time.
  3. By denying us fuel we will (initially) try to provoke you in different ways concerning arrangements and interaction with the children. Weather that storm and because we must obtain fuel we will have to seek it elsewhere. You are not a viable source so we will eventually look to obtain fuel from you less and less. You will also eventually notice that this manifests by us losing interest in the children. Remember, we are not interested in the children per se but how they as appliances can serve us.
  4. You will face an ongoing battle between your influence and our influence. This is deliberate as it is used to provoke you into confronting us about what we say about you, what we say to the children and what we do with them. We want you to engage. You must resist the need to do so. Remember, you will not make us change. We will not listen to you. We want to control you and draw fuel from you. We use the children to achieve this. Accordingly, if the children comment that we are making disparaging comments about you: –
  5. Do not confront us about the issue, it is futile;
  6. Do not seek to influence the view of the child by saying “Dad is a bad person” this will trouble the child and the response will be conveyed to us which will secure Thought Fuel for us and also provide us with further ammunition to use against you for your comment. Instead, move on to discussing something else  and the child is likely to forget about the comment. If the child persists in wanting to discuss the matter, then explain that Dad does things differently to you and then move on. Provide reassurance and listen to the child but do not, however tempting it may be, do or say anything disparaging as this plays into our hands. Your role is to maintain a positive influence for your children as often as you are able. By doing this (and starving us of fuel so the interaction will lessen) your positive influence will progressively outweigh our negative influence. The more you expose your children to a positive influence and avoid walking into our traps and playing into our hands, you will tip the balance so that they will, through the effluxion of time and exposure to this positive influence flourish under it and make their own minds up.
  7. In a similar fashion to how you must deal with a smear campaign, do not tell the children what to think, but allow them to make up their own minds. This will be difficult at first and you will no doubt find yourself on the receiving end of hurtful and challenging behaviour. Keep in mind that this is our influence (not what the child really thinks) and that as you weather the storm, the effects of your positive influence will eventually manifest. As the children become older you can present them with independent evidence of behaviour (not just hearsay and say so) so they can evaluate this for themselves and make their own minds-up. Like third parties, children do not want to be involved in a conflict between two people and they do not want to be told what to do. Cater for this and you will minimise disruption and increase your positive influence.
  8. Your approach is one of ensuring the “light side” overcomes the “dark side”. This can only be achieved by repeated reinforcement of positive behaviour and influence. If you engage in behaviours similar to ours, you enter onto our home turf and you will not only encourage us to keep going with our behaviours but you will find there is a negative outcome for both you and the children.
  9. If our behaviour is serious in terms of impact on the children – for instance violence or neglect – involve the relevant authorities. You will not be able to cause us to recognise we have done anything wrong because we either do not recognise that we have or we will not admit it for the purposes of maintaining control.
  10. If you regard it as appropriate, save messages and e-mails which exhibit our behaviour and allow the child access to them when an adult. This is again the presentation of independent evidence when they are in a position to make their own minds up. You must not engage in a popularity contest or sling mud; you will lose as this is playing into our hands.
  11. If you find yourself having to engage with us through the court system, ensure those representing you are familiar with our kind. Rely on independent evidence as much as possible rather than “he said, she said”. Recognise that we are experts at duping people and our lawyers, your lawyers, psychologists, court officials and judges can just as easily be duped. If a hearing does not go your way, resist the urge to lash out at us – it is of course just fuel – and instead continue to adopt a positive approach towards your children. That must always be your focus. We want you to engage with us and we will use children and the court system to provoke you to do this. Fail to engage and you take away much of our power.

It is hard. A narcissistic parent is a fact. We will not go away so long as we are getting what we want or believe we can do so. Prevent us from getting what we want, demonstrate to us that we are unlikely to get what we want and we will turn our attention elsewhere. This will then allow your positive influence to have an even greater bearing on the children and undo any harmful effects from our toxic influence. You will face challenges but by trying to address our behaviour, cater for it and pander to it, you will not succeed in protecting your children. I have seen this first hand.

15 thoughts on “Save The Children

  1. Dawn Sonntag says:

    Helping my son, who is currently divorcing his narcissistic wife. This describes the situation I see. This information will help my son and his child.

    1. Anm says:

      Dawn sonntag,
      I used this article to outline my original parenting plan when I originally went to mediation with my ex. Is your son in the United states? If so, I suggest your son checking out the Youtube page: Proper Person. The guy represented himself while battling his narcissist ex in court. Even if your son has an attorney, it is important that your son gets his mind in check for a long battle, and become very familiar with how the courts really work.

      1. D. Sonntag says:

        Thanks. He already suffered a psychic break because of the long-term abuse, so he needs all the information he can get to deal with what is coming.

  2. Angela G says:

    It’s been 6 months since I fled from my abusive narc. Our daughter is now 9 months old. I live with fear that he will kill me to gain custody of her. Or keep me alive, but try to kill my soul through arduous legal battles.

    HG, you were instrumental in my decision to leave and go 100% no contact. Thank you for being honest about how narc fathers affect their daughters.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

    2. Anm says:

      Whatever you do, do not live in fear. I fled the narc father of my daughter when she was an infant as well. The narc did come after me, after some time. Court battles are real. You can always flee again, even when courts are involved, it just takes some time and planning.

  3. BlueFalcon says:

    Thank you HG this is ALL true! I found out that the biggest problem in the court system (family law) is that they don’t recognize how serious the damage your kind can do to children partly is because as you stated before (the reasoning of your kind is that there is no harm done) this reasoning is share by Judges and attorney which may explain why often the triangulation continues because many of these folks that are on these positions are narcissist themselves and they protect their kind..

    I was appalled how my children were neglected physically and emotionally by their father I contacted the authorities and NOTHING was done, in fact I was told as long as there were not marks on their bodies they were okay, I fought so until I realized this is what he wanted and he was not done with me torturing me..
    He is in a new relationship with the same person he cheated on, and they are ready to married he is trying to get her pregnant this is knowing he has more kids around that he has neglected and she is so naive to think he is a” changed man” what I do notice is that he now relies on her to do the raising, he goes to gym, sleeps and she will take care of them, this is bringing tension because she wants her own children, my children often come home saying they are scare of her she often lose her temper often, at the beginning I will send e-mail to him letting him know my concerns for my surprise he came to my house in amicable way stating he will ensure our children were protected but didn’t happen, so what I do nowadays I documented the shit of everything my children tell me, I realize that day he came here he uses his own girlfriend to do his dirty job to create a reaction to me, he will be sooo please if I at some point as any mother will become aggressive with her to defend my children, knowing this have been helping to pretty much approach this differently

    Unfortunately the laws are not in favor of victims, until a tragedy happens is when something is done.
    My approach to this situation nowadays has changed I am ensuring my children know when they are with me they will have that healthy environment and pretty much have to reprogram my children from coming home on edge or simply used of neglected and hostility…

    For whoever is dealing with co-parents with Narcissist

    Just know you will not ever do co-parenting you pretend you are doing and you inform everything to the other party but be short, for exchanges ensure it’s not done with you this will cost you because they will look of other way to see you, like i.e using the partner to mistreat your children and hoping to have a response, DO NOT respond to this as much as it hurt paper trail is and will be your best friend write write write, when you write and reread the account of what happens you will get answers you need, I found sooo much by rereading the things that had happen with my children, teach your children to control their emotions this will help them in the future don’t engage in talking bad about them simply work on tools for them to don’t repeat the pattern


    Teach your children to value emotions more than material things Narcissist operate base on needs and demands is easy for them to bring children to them because they don’t have emotions so they use toys and affection as a way to bring them to do what they want, i.e if the Narcissist buy a nice present downgrade yours and buy something simple work more and double in being present for your children i PROMISE they will soon value more your presence than anything else, Narcissist die if they feel they can move you to compete with them to be in the top, they wonder why you don’t put an effort, often they are so self absorbed that they even forget that those presents are meant for the children it becomes more of How they are going to look, if they see you don’t care and you are find with him/her getting the credit this becomes death to them and we are boring…
    Remember parenting for them is onlgy good if they can show the world something to be proud of, so if your children do not excelled at school they will be looking for someone that will help them reproduce so they can find their continuation this sounds terrible and cold huh? That’s them they will now devalued those children and they will be perceived exactly how he/she ended the relationship often as they are worthless, to ensure this does NOT happen teach your children to don’t look for your or his approval, teach your children to love themselves unconditionally with their flaws because Narcissist hate that, you will ONLY have peace when you learn how to separate normal thinking, fill with empathy the day you know they don’t possess ANY of these, it’s a hard job to do and most us have to work three times harder to undo some of the damage I can’t promise you you will be able to undo them all, what I can tell you, there is an opportunity to have well adjusted children as long as you know the raw true, they ARE plain evil and they don’t love ANYONE they can’t, so do your best to protect yourself and your little and best luck, studying this MF for quite something and until this day I still find out they are a cancer that is hard to deal with…
    Good luck and cheers!!
    Blue Falcon

    1. Kathy says:

      I just have this feeling that HG is sophisticated enough to not be an asshat to kids.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        I believe that children are the future, teach them well and let them lead the way.

        1. Windstorm says:

          Glad I wasn’t drinking coffee when I read your comment about children. I’d have spit it everywhere!! Ha, ha!

      2. K says:

        I laughed when I read that, too!!!

      3. Caroline R says:

        HG’s doing karaoke!

    2. Caroline R says:

      Blue Falcon (& your precious little falcons)
      I wish you all the best for the road ahead. You are courageous and resilient, and your life wisdom is so valuable even though it’s been painful to attain it. Thank you for sharing your experience with us.

    3. Anm says:

      Your situation sounds like a relationship I was in years ago with a narcissist, except I was the “second wife”. We actually never married, but we were engaged, lived together, I was raising his child, we were trying to conceive our own, and there was a 22 year difference between us. I always tell my friends who are the “first wives” of narcissist, that it is far worst to be the second wife in so many ways. You are right that the second wife is used to raise the children. It took me a while to notice that the narcissist I was with, was using me so that he could keep joint custody of his child, and so that he would keep the child support payments at the lowest amounts, and escape accountability. This particular narcissist would often take off for “business trips” right before his child had important events. He wouldn’t leave money, and I would often have to spend my own money shopping for his child and caring for him. The narcissist would triangulate me with the childs mother, me with the child, etc, so that he would maintain control of everything. Therefore the child’s mother would often hear things about me that were not true, and she was always worried for her child, and felt the problems were from me. The truth was, I took the brunt of the narcissist abuse. We had a hard time getting pregnant from me not feeling safe, and the tension got worst with time from the narc. The moral of the story is, the second wife may not be as bad as the narc or children are stating. Maybe get you children into therapy where they can talk to a third party about what’s going on.

  4. Kathy says:

    I really like this. I’m one of the lucky ones. My soon to be ex husband is what he is—but he doesn’t “abuse” the children. He doesn’t cater to emotions because he doesn’t have the full range of them for himself nor does he care. They are often in their rooms because interacting with them would be too much effort with little fuel acquisition. He buys them things. He really only specifically targeted me and my oldest daughter. (His step-daughter) He is a lazy narcissist—mid range.
    I came upon a woman’s narcissist site today. Lots of followers, like 40k. Her focus is on the legal system and she is a “survivor” who writes books, gives seminars, etc. Oh I know her work is important but I could not help but notice the extreme vitriol toward the ex/kid’s father. Years later? Seriously? I’m angry but damn! In fact, she publicly exposes her daughters “boundary setting” letters to her dad. (The narc). Talk about all shades of fucked up. That won’t be me. I think she has a personality disorder herself.

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