When Narcissists Collide – Part One

when-narcissists

Many people are curious to know what happens when there is some narc on narc action? Do they recognise one another? Do they seek one another out? How do they react around one another? Do they gang up and is there a pack mentality? Can narcissists work together? Can two narcissists have a successful romantic relationship?

As you know, I categorise our kind into cadres and schools of narcissist. The latter is linked to awareness, ability and cognitive function and therefore this is what is relevant when considering whether our kind recognise one another. Addressing that question first is straight forward. The Lesser and Mid-Range Narcissists do not know what they are and therefore they are unable to recognise their own kind. The Greater Narcissist, a rare beast, is aware of what he is but usually will not admit it (unless he sees some gain to be achieved from doing so). He is however able to recognise his own kind in terms of all three of the schools. With this platform of awareness and recognition, what transpires when narcissists collide? Let us begin with the Lesser and the Lesser.

Two Lesser Narcissists can readily become entangled as a consequence of being related. The existence of a familial connection means that there is no need for an actual seduction between the two Lesser Narcissists. If for instance the two Lesser Narcissists are two brothers then whenever they interact they will seek to draw fuel from the other. This will manifest as seeking to outdo one another or demand attention from one another. For instance, a Lesser Victim Narcissist would want his brother to help him get down some stairs. The brother Lesser Somatic may agree to assist in the expectation of receiving positive fuel from the LVN’s appreciation and thanks. This is less likely to be forthcoming from the LVN and this failure to be appreciative will result in the brother LSN mocking his brother for his lack of mobility, his poor physical prowess as a consequence of the LSN having his fury ignited by the criticism which arises because the LVN did not express sufficient thanks and appreciation for the LSN helping him. Alternatively, the LVN demands the assistance of his more agile brother to help him down some stairs, but the LSN sees no reason to help. He is no carer and therefore refuses. This failure to assist is a criticism to the LVN, his fury is ignited and he will lash out at the LSN sibling through name-calling, telling him he should spend less time in the gym and more time helping his brother out because he needs the help and hell he is entitled to it.

Two Lesser siblings will actually provide one another with fuel because they will erupt in rage with one another. The lack of consideration that they will have for one another (or where they feign it in order to try to gain an advantage) will result in the two railing against one another on a repeated basis. They will trade bad-tempered insults and physically fight, each gaining fuel from the other’s rage until either sated they part or they are parted by others. Unable to recognise that they are dealing with one of their own kind and because they will treat one another as Non-Intimate Secondary Sources they will keep coming together to use one another for fuel, clash, sparks will fly and then they will separate. The intermittent nature of their interaction, since they use one another as a NISS means that their relationship will continue for a long time without discard and will be one marked by turbulence. Outsiders, unaware of what they are, will regard two Lesser siblings as competitive, argumentative and repeatedly at loggerheads. They will covet one another’s possessions, delight in trying to engage in an affair with their sister-in-law or the girlfriend of their sibling. They will seek to outdo one another, aligned against one another because of what they are but drawn to one another through the familial bond and the fact they are able to gain short intense bursts of fuel from one another.

What about two Lessers who find themselves coming together in a social sense? The initial seduction between the two will be effective since neither is seeking to make the other a primary source and therefore the usual instinctive checks for empathy etc will be less rigorous because of this and also because the individuals concerned are Lesser Narcissists. It is extremely rare for two Lessers to become friends in isolation. Instead they are brought together through the ‘glue’ of other non-narcissists. Thus, an empathic individual may have been ensnared by Lesser Narcissist A through say a football team and also through Lesser Narcissist B through being neighbours and this empathic person may well bring the two Lessers together as part of a wider social circle. Thus, it is conceivable that they can become friends, most likely of the outer circle variety and are thus Non Intimate Secondary Sources.

Similar to the situation of a familial Lesser Narcissists, the two social Lesser Narcissists will bump up against one another, trying to outdo one another, clashing, arguing and seeking to draw fuel. Their behaviours will cause the ignition of fury in the other resulting in the provision of fuel and again this will be in short bursts before their need for fuel is sated and they back off. Their interactions will be intermittent and it will usually be necessary for the interactions to take place against the matrix of other non-narcissists being in attendance.

The first Lesser will seek to gain the approval of the social group. The second will resent this and lash out at the first Lesser and thus the arguing will commence. Those within the group will regard the two as just having a ‘personality clash’ not truly understanding the dynamic and will spend their time trying to keep the peace and keep the two from attacking one another both verbally and physically. They will rut with one another as they seek to establish primacy within the group and will always keep going and going until others intervene. Once this happens, they will break off and not bother with one another until the next occasion where they are brought  together. The two Lesser Narcissists will not spend time with one another and nobody else in attendance. The lack of a familial bond means that they would just go at one another until one knocked the other out, thus there is little incentive for the two to socialise in isolation. Instead, the social Lesser Narcissists are always brought together in a wider group, where they will compete with one another against the backdrop of onlookers.

In a work situation, the two Lesser Narcissists are brought together because of the connection of employment. There is therefore no seduction between them but their link is already established. They will compete, not co-operate with one another, look to do the other down and use third parties to try to elevate themselves against this person who will be identified as a troublemaker and a competitor straight away. Two Lesser Narcissists who are forced to work together will become a headache for any HR department. Unwilling to compromise, always blaming one another, shirking responsibility, looking to draw a reaction from each other, they are actually unlikely to get any work done but instead spend their time trying to do down the other. They would not be focussed on trying to outdo one another, after all they are Lesser, but instead, they would rather try and do the other down, which will therefore mean that if the competitor is beneath them they must, by default, be above them. It is a tumultuous relationship of insults, accusations and even violence towards one another which will either lead to the pair being split up so there is no interaction or both being dismissed.

What of two Lessers interacting as tertiary sources, say one is a customer in a restaurant and the other is a waiter? They may, as strangers, get away with a brief dollop of positive fuel for one another. The waiter is pleasant and the customer thanks him. If the interaction is brief they can both get away with this small amount of positive fuel. If the interaction becomes longer there is an increased risk of them igniting one another’s fury. The customer Lesser perceives a criticism through slow service and insults the waiter. He reacts to this and throws a drink over the customer. Both gain an instant hit of fuel and then the interaction is over, again most likely through the intervention of third parties. The two Lessers, even as tertiary sources, cannot exist alongside one another for long before one tries to draw fuel from the other. The low control threshold of the Lesser means that any interaction with another Lesser, either family, socially, work wise or interacting as strangers will result in a flare-up between the two.

Finally, what about two Lessers coming together in the context of an intimate relationship? Can two Lessers have one another as intimate partner primary sources? There is a risk of them trying to seduce one another because of their inability to recognise one another and their lower cognitive function, meaning they may not pick up as readily on the lack of empathic traits. The seduction may commence but then not be concluded as both instinctively find that the other is not providing the fuel that they will need and therefore the seduction is broken off. They have enough instinct to know that the person they have started to seduce will not have what is required and therefore they decide not to proceed with the seduction.

There may however be occasions where two Lessers become locked together in a romantic relationship and seek to make the other an IPPS. This is unusual but can happen because of the following:-

 

1.      Both have suffered escapes from empathic IPPSs and therefore have been plunged into Chaos Mode. With no pending IPPS in play, they are desperate to find one and thus inadvertently hook up with one another because of their desperate need for fuel. Their weakened state and desperation will cause them to be far less instinctively choosy; and/or

2.      They feign the appearance of empathic traits in order to trap the target and owing to the lower cognitive function (and especially if there is no other primary source fuel provision to hand) they fail to detect that this is false and are thus initially conned.

Where two Lessers “fall” for one another in such circumstances the nature of the relationship will be turbulent and short-lived. Initially, continuing the seduction,they will provide limited positive fuel to one another. This is because given their lesser energy levels, they will be focused on keeping the beast within under control rather than laying on the charm and magnetism. Accordingly, there is not so much a Golden Period but rather a Bronze Period. This poor positive fuel provision will make both Lessers restless, irritable and struggling to keep the beast under control. They may be pleasant to the other in order to try to draw positive fuel but when it is not forthcoming, because of course they are dealing with their own kind who EXPECTS to receive the compliments and sees no reason to return them and their low control threshold means that the lack of decent fuel will bring about devaluation very quickly.

Accordingly, the Bronze Period between two Lessers who have appointed one another as an IPPS will be short-lived and will plummet towards devaluation. Both will lash out at the other and this is when some decent fuel will be forthcoming as they erupt in a fury with another. Unfortunately for them the ignition of the fury means that they need fuel to replace that used up by the fury and therefore there will be an explosive eruption between the two and then they will be forced to withdraw. They will seek fuel elsewhere and once sated return to one another only for the next explosion to occur. So long as the Lessers can draw fuel from other sources and keep erupting with another, a turbulent and vitriolic period of devaluation will occur and will continue until one or both find a far more viable fuel source.

Let us say that Lesser A, finding the fuel from Lesser B to be highly unsatisfactory, finds an empathic secondary source and commences an affair. The fuel is far superior to that being provided by Lesser B. Lesser A moves to promote the empathic secondary source to become an IPPS. Lesser A has found the viable fuel source and thus will discard Lesser B. Thereafter, Lesser A will focus on the new IPPS and have no regard for Lesser B. Lesser B perceives the loss of his IPPS as a criticism, his fury is ignited and he will apply an Initial Grand Hoover to try to win back Lesser A. This will fail. Lesser A will resist the hoover because of what he is and also because he will infatuated with the new primary source. Lesser B may well lash out at Lesser A through this ignited fury but will be forced quickly to find an alternative primary source. Once secured, Lesser B having also found a fresh empathic primary source will focus on her. Accordingly, Lessers A and B will have no regard for one another and will not hoover, even when they devalue their new-found empathic primary sources because the Hoover Execution Criteria bar will be raised high because of the poor fuel provision they experienced.

Accordingly, in the romantic sense the collision of two Lessers is rare and if it does happen the relationship will be chaotic, brutal and moreover short-lived with the two unlikely to cross paths purposefully again thereafter.

32 thoughts on “When Narcissists Collide – Part One

  1. amanda SNapchat says:

    I am also very pro-women. So maybe that is why I want to think that Hillary is the greater. haha…
    I think I also need to see truths… Hillary did play a lot the victim card and was not that charismatic.

  2. amanda SNapchat says:

    mommypino thanks. that makes a lot of sense actually. But would a greater have oral sex in his office? Is he a somantic greater? Like I can;t imagine a greater getting caught up in something like that.
    I thought Hillary was maybe the greater and it is just harder for women and hence why she is not president now? But she does play the martyr and does have less charm than Bill Clinton.
    Thank you mommypino!

    1. mommypino says:

      He is either a Somatic or an Elite. I’m more inclined to think that he is an Elite because he is super smart. Yes, I believe that a Greater Elite or Somatic would do that in the oval office or anywhere pretty much just because ‘he can’. And I have had a lot of information that people working at the White House were covering up for him. They all knew his sex addiction. Just like they covered up for JFK. He was much more magnetic and smarter than Hillary. He had the energy where he was approachable by everybody, regardless of what kind of person you are. But Hillary in my opinion didn’t have that. She had a wall that some mid-rangers have, that sulky unapproachable superior demeanor. Very self-righteous but at the same time trying to look like she is a humble martyr. She acted like she was the intellectual in the marriage but a lot of the things that she did and said during the campaign would be mistakes that Bill Clinton would never have made because he has more self control and more understanding of people. Just mt two cents.

      1. amanda SNapchat says:

        Thank you! Great analysis. I think HG’s work has really helped me to detect narcs much better.
        I just realized today that Frank Sinatra, Woody Allen are all narcs. I think Mia Farrow is a super empath who has gotten caught up with narcs. Mia farrow seems to have been too accepting of Woody (accepting threesomes etc) so woody escaled 🙁
        Thank you all for thsi great discussion. I learned a lot

      2. mommypino says:

        Amanda, I agree with you about Frank Sinatra, Mia Farrow and Woody Allen. I wasn’t aware that she did that with Woody Allen. Thank you as well for the new info.

    2. MB says:

      Have you forgotten? Bill Clinton “did not have sexual relations with that woman”!

      1. NarcAngel says:

        MB
        Plausible deniability. His cigar did.

      2. mommypino says:

        Bahaha!!! MB, that is one of the greatest narc lies in history. I think he later on clarified that he doesn’t think that oral sex qualifies as sexual relations.

  3. Elise Marie says:

    Ah – brilliant! I worked closely with two narcissists in a department of three and it was hellish! It took me forever (ten years) to recognize that they were both narcissists
    This explains my work situation exactly! One retired and one was fired ( for doing nothing and being too arrogant) and they both still try to manipulate or smear me when they can. But this helps put it all into perspective.

  4. mommypino says:

    My Lesser Victim matrinarc would never collide with another narc. She used to say to everybody (like she was so proud of how smart she was with this) that she targeted my dad because he had a Rolex and he had this aura of being a really good person. She knew that if she would have a child from him, he will forever take care of her financially. And he did until he passed away. She was also hoping that he would leave his wife and kids for her and take her to the US. From what I have learned from my relatives in ny dad’s side was that he was so crazy about my mom, he actually briefly talked to my grandmother about leaving his wife for my mom. Although he never confessed to his wife. It never happened because my chaotic Lesser mom caused my dad to lose his job in Hong Kong by calling the President of the company and lashing at him on the phone.

    My Lesser matrinarc used to have an amazing figure and style when she was dating my dad but as soon as I was born she started gaining weight and wearing the ugliest clothes and her manners and overall countenance went downhill. She never dated any other guy again except for one Australian guy who was actually really sweet to me but it only lasted for a few months. She would never be in a relationship with any guy unless there is a big residual benefit involved so she would never get romantically entangled with another narc. I consider it as a blessing in disguise because I didn’t have to deal with a stepdad. Although I was her primary source of fuel too so I was abused and micromanaged the most.

    1. Caroline R says:

      Mommypino
      It’s an interesting observation about you escaping having a step father. I’m glad for you that you didn’t experience that. It did unfortunately make you her number one fuel source. That’s a huge burden for you.
      What are your thoughts on why your N-Mom didn’t keep up her stylish appearance? Do you think she was lonely when she and your Dad split, and she didn’t have enough fuel sources to manage?
      Did she have an extended family in the Phils, or was she alone? I’m sorry if you’ve mentioned it before, I can’t quite remember. I’ll have to reread the older posts.
      My Lesser N-Mom married up with my Dad, and she revelled in the residual benefits. She’d often say ” my life began when I met your Dad”. She had to get away from her Lesser Dad , and was 21 when she married. She had three children in the next six years so she was well set for fuel.

      1. mommypino says:

        My matrinarc would have loved to be in your mom’s shoes. Unfortunately for my mom, she was too erruptive that it ruined any chances of my dad marrying her. She was just mirroring my dad as best as she could when she was stylish. Her being unkempt is the ream her before she started to try to target a man to take care of her. Once her meal ticket was born, she went back to who she really was and used her dishevelled appearance to gain stmpathy for people as being the martyr who would rather spend the money that my dad was spending her on me and to help her mother and siblings. It was so hard for me that she looked so terrible as I was even bullied for that in school. I remember (this is just a factual recollection, I’m noy wounded by this anymore) I cried for hours i school after my friend joked that my mom and I are like a split apple, but mom was the half that was infested with worms. In the Phils. we say that two people are like split apples when they have resemblace because apples are usually symmetrical. So I believe that her terrible looks gave her fuel as well. I unfortunately, is very narcissistic or vain with my appearance and how people see me so her habit of looking horrible was really hard on me. I remember your post before about your victim narc sister and how you were trying to help her improve her appearance and I could totally relate to you and feel your pain.

        My mom’s other fuel sources are our relaives which we visited like once a month or during my summer vacations. I’m not a narc but they were also a source of fuel for me since they are so fun and they were my only social exposure outside of school. My mom was a martyr who helped them financially (with my dad’s money).

        In a way I wish that the Australian guy became my stepdad because he was so nice to me. He asked my mom why I don’t have ant chikdren’s books and bought me a few with really beautiful drawings. He also introduced me to cereals. But I’m more happy that he didn’t get ensnared (for his own good). My mom would always tell me that she is not having any boyfriends as a sacrifice for me because stepdads might abuse me. Now I know that it wasn’t much of a sacrifice for her since she is a Victim Narc, she never falls in love and sex isn’t a big issue for her.

      2. Caroline R says:

        Mommypino
        I’ve been thinking about these things you’ve shared, thank you for opening up about such sensitive issues and memories.

        I have so many thoughts about your feelings, your humiliations, your courage as a little person, and about the beautiful person you are now.

        I’m pleased that you had for a time your mom’s Australian boyfriend. He could see your vulnerability and also your need for something of your own, some beauty in your life, something to feed your soul. Those books with beautiful artwork — a pivotal moment in your life: someone was seeing YOUR needs, and meeting them.

        I imagine you’d have some very intense feelings about your N-Mom, and your relationship with her.
        What a confusing and complex set of feelings you would have had with her as your prime role model for womanliness, for how to act in adult relationships (for love and friendship), for what femininity was, for what mothering was, and also for what it was to have healthy self esteem as a woman.

        These things affect us very deeply.

        The shame that is triggered by others’ responses to our N-Mothers’ eccentricities…I don’t have words…
        I remember the cringefulness that I felt.

        HG talks about how he wanted to be like his N-Mum, but I didn’t want to be like mine in many respects.
        My N-Mum was always glamorous though, so I was proud of her beauty and attractiveness. I aspired to that. She was charismatic and outgoing, overlaid with the N-charm and eccentric behaviour. She took me and N-sister to the gym from childhood. I’ve always loved being athletic.
        She would buy me books, and encourage me to read so my intellect would reflect well on her. I couldn’t outshine her however. I had to find that threshold, and dumb myself down below it to avoid triggering the jealous rages and spite.

        Mine would control us all with rage behind closed doors. We’d scurry and hide. I hated her screaming at my Dad. It felt like being in an earthquake. It made me feel very insecure.

        It’s so interesting reading your insights about your Lesser victim N-Mother. Mine was standard Lesser variety. My victim-N sister is a smarmy mid-ranger, with a Lesser’s intelligence but less aggression, more passive-aggressive behaviour & with silent treatments galore. I think her husband is a co-dep carrier empath, having listened to HG’s YouTube readings.
        Her husband does all the heavy lifting in the relationship. It wouldn’t exist without him. He has intense needs for validation through being smothering and controlling, and making himself indispensable. They are waaay more toxic now than 20+ years ago when they first got together. It makes you wonder how things might have played out between your parents, given different circumstances.

        1. mommypino says:

          Hi Caroline,

          Thank you for being so thoughtful. I never had anybody understand me like that. Although this is really the only place that I share my narc stories. Most people wouldn’t believe or understand. I tried a few times and nobody even had any idea what I was trying to share. People throughout my life saw little bits and pieces of her destructive behavior and how it impacted me and would talk to her but it would make her furious and she would cease the connection either by transferring me to a different school or moving to a new house. I honestly don’t have any emotions about my past when I share it here, it is more like a case study for me. Whenever I look back to my childhood, I still feel that generally I had a happy childhood and I have a lot of memories that make me happy. The bad parts from my mom probably even highlighted the good little nuggets of experiences and made it more prominent in my memory. Like the Australian boyfriend of my mom, I think I only encountered him about 4 or 5 times but it stuck with me forever because it was an unusual and good experience for me.

          Thank you for sharing your story with me. I wanted to know but I wasn’t sure about the right wuestions to ask. You also had a difficult life growing up even though you had everything that you need. It is so hard to be expected to achieve but not allowed to completely shine because you are not suppose to be better than your mom in any way. How does one toe the line? How can you even know when you’re starting to outshine her? Only she determines when, in her mind she makes that decision for you. And when you inadvertently surpassed her in her mind you get punished. That is a different kind of serious abuse also. It is amazing that it didn’t stop you from being a high achiever and a beautiful caring person. Do you think that your belief in God helped you? I wonder what made you and your sister turn out to be so different? It does sound like her relationship with her husband is very toxic. Do they have kids together? I can’t remember if you shared it to me previously. I wonder how this would impact their kids if they have kids.

  5. Confused says:

    There is not yet a part 3 in this series, is there, or have I overlooked it? As in what happens when a greater and a midranger collide?

    I would also be interested in finding out more about narcs who read self help literature on narcissism (books, blogs like this one etc). This type of literature is becoming more and more available, there is a kind of hype online on the subject. Some youtubers on the subject strike me as highly narcissistic themselves. It is easy to retrospectively feel lovebombed and manipulated after a break up when you don’t want to own your own mistakes. I do have a suspicion that there is an increasing number of narcs out there who use this type of self help info to project even better. Would they be midrangers (assuming greaters don’t need a manual)? This happened to me and I found it deeply disturbing. Made me wonder indeed if I was the narcissist but I assume this means that I am on the co-dependent side. I would also like to find out more about the differences between the emotional abuse by narcs without self awareness and that by co-dependents without self awareness. Does anyone have any pointers?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Part 3 (and others) is in the pipeline. A MR narcissist would use self-help literature about narcissism to attack the true victim. The narcissist in such a scenario believes he or she is the victim. They will not recognise their own behaviours in what they read (because of the narcissistic perspective) and instead will see the behaviours of the true victim as being those of a narcissist (again caused by the narcissistic perspective).

      1. windstorm says:

        My best friend is stuck in this situation. His wife is a midrange victim who’s very histrionic. She is also a licensed family counselor, although she can’t keep a job.

        She makes his life hell and is always dragging him to marriage counselors to get him to acknowledge what a horrible husband and father he is. As each counselor begins to more and more praise his actions and behavior, then she refuses to go back and they have to get a new counselor. He’s gotten to the point that he doesn’t even talk in the sessions. He just lets her vent about how horrible he is as he sits there looking at the floor. He says at least he gets the consolation of feeling the counselors empathy.

        1. Elise Marie says:

          Can he leave? Is he considering leaving?

      2. amanda SNapchat says:

        wow that was exactly what happened with my MR. He told me I was gaslighting him in our last fight. Super projection. He really did not see himself as the narc. I thelped me to see him say gaslighting because that was when I connected he was a narc. I think god helped me. Because it’s an odd term to use. I think he had read about narcs. He was surprised I knew the term.

  6. Jane says:

    Two elite greater narcs in a romantic relationship, I can say from experience was rather exhilarating.

    1. Someguy says:

      Jane, Could you deepen more in why was so exhilarating?

  7. Amanda Snapchat QUeen says:

    you said Hillary Clinton and her husband Bill Clinton were both Narcs. Why has their relationship been long lived?
    Are both greaters? Maybe Bill clinton is more a Somantic narc?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It has survived because notwithstanding it has had its ups and downs their combined efforts serve a purpose for them both. They are not both Greaters.

      1. mommypino says:

        Bill Clinton has to be the one who is a Greater. Hillary is a mid-range I bet. Bill Clinton is the one with the amazing charm and magnetism. While Hillary has more like a martyr type facade. Although I thought that when Bill Clinton was president, the country was not as divisive as it has been under Obama and now under Trump. Clinton actually had the real charisma to work out the major differences between two parties. I coukd be wrong but that is how I remember it.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Gold star for you.

        2. windstorm says:

          MommyPino
          Yep. That’s how it was. Clinton was my favorite President in my lifetime. If Hillary was a greater, too, she’d be president now.

      2. amanda SNapchat says:

        Thank you. That is super interesting.
        I feel Hillary is the greater and she is behind trump’s smear campaign. I love your blog. I will buy many of your books as xmas presents for my friends. Happy shopping !

      3. mommypino says:

        Thank you HG! I always try to be a good grasshopper!

        Windstorm, I love your minion gravatar.

        1. windstorm says:

          MommyPino
          Thank you. He’s part of my Christmas decorations. I absolutely love those little minions! Them singing the Banana Song is my main ringtone on my phone. Listen to it online. It’s cute! (Bananas are their favorite food).

      4. mommypino says:

        Windstorm, we love Despicable Me and Minions movies too. We own all of them. They are just the happiest little things. 😊

      5. Caroline R says:

        That’s interesting about Bill & Hill.
        I hoped that she would have been voted in last election.

  8. W says:

    Hi HG, would love to hear about two mid rangers colliding. (Specifically a lower and a mid)
    Seems similar to part two, a lesser and a mid but I’d love to hear your take
    Hope all is well, -W

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