I Want


What does the Greater Narcissist want?

I Want

109 thoughts on “I Want

  1. Starscape says:

    Yuo cna porbalby raed tihs esaliy desptie teh msispeillgns.

    1. Starscape says:

      We all want our opponents to lose, to be utterly destroyed, and to suffer, but karmic relief potentially applies to the malicious intentions and the sword of salvation may be pulled from the stone hearted offender.

    2. NarcAngel says:


      Exactly. People who fixate on typos and grammar over the message deserve a narcissist lol.

  2. Nika says:

    I dare say, I lose control not infrequently.

  3. Caroline R says:

    I thought that ‘I want’ would be a good place to run something past you:

    I want everything to go well for you.
    I want your work to be highly regarded.
    I want everyone who reads your work to think well of you.
    I want more of your work.
    I want your work to accurately reflect your excellence.
    I want you to shine.
    I want you to be admired.

    That brings me to a little thing that I noticed:
    I don’t like them.
    I think they are not indicative of how hard you work.
    You don’t like them either.
    Do you have someone to proofread for you?
    Would you like someone to proofread for you?
    Would you like me to?

    I would like to assist you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you. E-mail me and we can discuss.

      1. MB says:

        May I have an email discussion about proofreading too? I know, I know, life isn’t fair.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You may.

      2. Caroline R says:

        It will be my pleasure.
        And I promise you that I won’t tease you anymore.
        Unless you want me to.
        I want you to trust me.

  4. Caroline R says:

    I have more questions, about Paris, and all sorts of things, but I’ll write later. It’s 0300hrs here, and I must try to sleep. I hope your day is going well.

    1. windstorm says:

      Caroline R
      Yeah, get plenty of sleep. I’m out at my daughter’s who’s 8 months pregnant and baking an entire gingerbread village – including reindeer stable (she is baking, definitely not me!) and her 1,2, 4 and 6 year olds. Plenty of happiness, excitement, love and holiday cheer! 🎄

  5. Caroline R says:

    Thank you for taking time to answer all my questions.
    You are definitely the secret to Pretzel’s success. You have been a good team in many ways. Shame he had to totally stuff that up!
    You’re both been very hard working. Studying as an adult requires such determination and sacrifice, and a lot of self discipline. What an incredibly fortunate man to have your love, support and encouragement, to get him to that place of personal satisfaction & achievement.
    The practise of law would have perfectly suited his logical mind.

  6. windstorm says:

    Caroline R
    Pretzel slept 9 hours a night if possible. He put himself thru university by working nights or the graveyard shift at a local factory. Mama was a beef-cattle farmer and he had to spend 3-4 hours additionally each day helping her on the farm. We also raised tobacco and baled our own hay. He always said he never dreamed.

    After we graduated he got a job in HR for a nearby factory, then later worked in their US corporate office. He had always wanted to be an attorney, but I had fought that for years (I didn’t want to be married to a lawyer). When I saw he still wanted this in his 30’s (we’d been together since he was 17), I shifted gears and we got him into and thru law school. Since then he tried private practice and public defense attorney, but settled into his dream job of prosecuting attorney for his county.

    I’m sure he is intimately acquainted with his creature. He doesn’t openly talk about it, but he’s dropped hints over the years.
    He never sleep talked.

    He takes pride in never planning ANYTHING! I feel for the secretaries and colleagues that have to see that he has all his appropriate paperwork completed and filed for court. He takes great pride in being able to step into any situation and “wing it.” He is definitely spontaneous. “Plans” are like “laws” – more of a guideline than something to be taken seriously or adhere to.

  7. ava101 says:

    I hate victim narcs. And mid range narcs. And lesser narcs.

    1. k says:

      You and me both ava101.

      1. ava101 says:


  8. Mercy says:

    Windstorm, Ihave no doubt he believed you. At least you won that war. Other women were a deal breaker for me too…until he crossed that boundary. Then new boundries were set and he crossed those too, more boundaries more crossing. On and on and here I am. Today my boundaries are rock solid. I won’t go through that disrespect again.

    1. Caroline R says:

      Your writing is so engaging!
      More please.

  9. ava101 says:


    with your always correct insight, would you mind telling me what you think of the following?
    Let’s assume someone is a kind of lesser victim narcissist (or lower mid range), whom I am experimenting with:

    1. When he constantly goes on about how he can’t drive that far (1,5 h) to meet me, and either says he doesn’t have time (work, is off at 5 p.m.), money, is ill, is too tired, has things to do (but then chats from home all the time), his legs hurt (no, I’m not kidding) …
    <—- What exactly is the problem? That he doesn’t want to spend any time & money & energy OR that he doesn’t want to do what I want him to do? He complained I had wanted to control him …

    2. He would meet me, if I drove to meet him close to (!) his place (living with his parents he says), I refuse to do so of course.

    3. I will move in 2 weeks one hour closer to his place. He says he will visit me then. Is that future faking – or planning because it would take less energy, and he saves his further efforts till I am in his poximity??

    4. Am I more like … on the shelf and/or a dirty little secret, and getting comfort crumbs & future faking, or is he just waiting for me to be closer??
    What does he get out of that, only chatting (platonically only… ) so far??

    5. Or what else don’t I realize?
    Thank you!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      On the assumption this person is a narcissist:-

      1. Both.
      2. His sense of entitlement and lack of obligation at work.
      3. It is Future Faking as there is no guarantee he will actually do it because he has no sense of obligation. He may actually do it, but it is not guaranteed. When he tells you this though he believes he will do it, but he can easily change his mind.
      4. I need more information to establish that. A consultation is the appropriate venue. He gains fuel of course.

      1. ava101 says:

        Thank you so much, HG, I appreciate it!

        A narc can engage in future faking but he doesn’t know it??

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. An empathic person commits to a future act and will see it through, or if unable to do so will have a significant reason why not.
          2. A normal person will behave similarly to (1) although failure to complete it may be based on a less significant, albeit understandable reason.
          3. The Lesser may commit to something but is highly unlikely to do it. He says he will but gives it little thought.
          4. The Mid Range may commit to something and is likely to not do it. He does however believe he will and also believes his failure to be entirely justified, even if the reason provided appears wrong or weak from an empathic perspective.
          5. The Greater may commit to something knowing full well he will not do it, because offering such a commit serves his needs and it entertains him to know the consequences for the victim when he decides against doing it.

      2. kel says:

        Ai yi yi, why are people so screwed up??

        1. windstorm says:

          Maybe screwed up is actually normal.

  10. shesaw says:

    Two parents, one child

    One man, multiple women. Proudly aware of the inflicted pain.

    Why not stop the emotional torture?

    Is malignant narcissism a morality disorder?

    1. SuperXena says:

      Hello shesaw,
      You probably will get very different answers to that question depending on who is “ looking” at it.

      Some( among others the perpetrators themselves and the ones with no emotional empathy) would say that they are amoral because they do not have or show any concern about whether their behaviour is morally right or wrong. They are outside or beyond the moral order or a particular code of morals. They are neither moral nor immoral.

      Others ( usually the ones with empathy) who are concerned with the principles of “wrong” and “right”
      would regard this behaviour as immoral since that behaviour is conflicting and not conforming with generally /traditionally moral principles or accepted standards of morality.

      For the “amoral” there is no right or wrong in their behaviour .They see their behaviour just as a logical choice based on their own “code of conduct” being perhaps one of their basic codes : survival of the fittest.

      Being one pertaining the empathic group, I consider abuse in any form-infidelity or ANY other breach of trust and in particular child abuse- unacceptable or more intensively expressed: unacceptably …wrong.

      1. shesaw says:

        Hi SX, thank you for your interesting reply!

        ‘They are outside or beyond the moral order or a particular code of morals. They are neither moral nor immoral.’

        That is the very problem indeed. It means they play the game of life by their own rules. Are they blind to morality/commonly accepted rules? Are they not able to play the game using these rules? Or do they not want to play by those rules?

        ‘For the “amoral” there is no right or wrong in their behaviour .They see their behaviour just as a logical choice based on their own “code of conduct” being perhaps one of their basic codes : survival of the fittest.’

        I understand that you are kinda speaking from their viewpoint here. I (from my personal point of view) don’t see why ‘amorality’ or ‘immorality’ is a logical choice, if it is a choice at all. I would rather say ‘morality is a choice’. Morality is the social code humans created to interact with each other in a thoughtful manner. Morality is rational. Immorality is instinctive.

        Rational morality conflicts with the narcissistic personality at this point. Hence my question. Morality transcends the individual. Maybe that is where narcissists stop when it comes to their private life?

        1. SuperXena says:

          Hello shesaw,

          Thank you and thank you for your input.

          Yes, I am describing it as how I understand they see this from their perspective (based on everything I have learned here). You would certainly receive an accurate answer from HG to these questions. I will answer what I have understood and learned of their perspective.

          1.“It means they play the game of life by their own rules. “

          It seems they do. They have their own “moral “code.

          2.“Are they blind to morality/commonly accepted rules?

          – The ones of the lowest schools are not aware because they are blinded by their own NPD. They believe that what they are doing is right.

          – The ones that are aware of it see the concept of ‘Right’ or ‘Wrong’ as fluid concepts which only prevail when supported and validated by a majority. Who in turn proclaim their definition of right ( or wrong) to others through the application of laws, procedures etc.

          3.”Are they not able to play the game using these rules?Or do they not want to play by those rules? “

          Some are not able to see them ( those unaware) others (aware) recognise the existing rules but they do not care. (See answer 2 connected).For them , the aim justify the means.

          4.”I (from my personal point of view) don’t see why ‘amorality’ or ‘immorality’ is a logical choice, if it is a choice at all. I would rather say ‘morality is a choice”

          I am not stating that morality is a choice for them. I am saying that since they put themselves outside the rules ( so called amoral) dictated by the prevailing society, their behaviour is dictated only by the LOGIC of their perspective regardless if it goes in or outside the existing norm.

          5.” Morality is rational. Immorality is instinctive.”

          I do not understand what you mean.

          For me immorality is not instinctive. It is a “learned” behaviour. What is moral in some cultures is regarded as immoral in others and vice-versa.

          Instinctive behaviour or innate behaviour is “ any behaviour that is performed without being based upon prior experience (that is, in the absence of learning), and is therefore an expression of innate biological factors.”

          6.”Maybe that is where narcissists stop when it comes to their private life?”

          What do you mean “stop”?

          shesaw, I do understand perfectly your sense of moral and immoral. I do have a clear-cut concept of what is moral and immoral for me. I believe that morality has to do mainly with a combination of the ability of feeling empathy and the culture /environment you were brought up and living in.

          Best wishes.

      2. SuperXena says:


      3. shesaw says:

        SX, sorry for not replying. I am done with WordPress or whatever else is preventing me from getting alerts when people respond to me.
        I have checked for days/weeks for your response (your ‘sub’ was published but not your further reply) and finally stopped, only to discover today that you replied right away and it is published only now. It really makes me mad.

        I am too tired to think right now, but I will answer you soon, and this will be the last discussion I take part in. This slow-down is really discouraging interesting debates for me.

      4. shesaw says:

        Hi SuperXena, thank you for replying and thank you for thinking along with me.

        In formulating those questions, I was trying to understand the malice of the aware ones, which I find particularly hard. I don’t have answers, only assumptions and I don’t know if they are ‘true’.
        I’ll try to explain my thoughts.

        The lower echalons are unaware, so they are kinda ‘excused’ for their wrongdoings (not really, but you get what I mean). But the aware ones? I wonder – do they have a choice? Do they have another option? Morality, f.i.?, (which is hard enough for NT’s, to be honest)

        My idea is that they don’t have another option. I believe they didn’t chose to be amoral. They didn’t ‘put themselves outside the rules, they became aware one day that they ARE ‘outside the rules’. They HAVE different assumptions, but they didn’t know up till then. Once they know they are different, they have to make it work, because they cannot be a failure (NPD).

        I believe that NPD is mainly about instinct. Instinctive behaviour is not the same as innate behaviour to me. Instinctive behaviour is learnt too, like pulling your hand away from touching something hot –> you don’t have time to think about your reaction, your brain decides for you. It is learnt, because you have to learn that ‘kettle’ means ‘hot’, that knowledge is NOT innate, but the action is governed by instinct (limbic brain, I believe, which acts almost on its own, to protect the organism from threats).

        I somehow suppose that NT’s, having been raised in far less brutal circumstances, did develop a less sensitive instinct. Less black and white. Less edgy.

        I wrote ‘immorality is instinctive’ but I see now why that is too sloppy. What I suppose is that immorality in NPD (and probably in everyone) is BASED on a instinct (not on reasoning) BUT the instinctive trigger is prolonged/executed rationally. So the trigger is instinctive and very strong, the execution of the punishment/revenge and the way in which it is done is rational and thought about. Being able to make it the worst/most effective punishment has to do with the need for power and is the pride of the ‘greaters’. They are proud to be the best punishers, so to say.
        ‘Punishment’ must always be executed by the narcissist due to his/her need for power and the necessity of total shame-avoidance. Not experiencing remorse/guilt is a result of not feeling empathy. I don’t think though that not having empathy is decisive in acting immoral.

        I must stop. There will be loose ends in my reasoning, I may be totally wrong, but these thoughts are the result of my personal inquiry so far 🙂 Please, if you like and want and have time, I would love to read your thoughts. Thanks!

        1. K says:

          It’s a matter of practicality. Morality isn’t an issue because it does not exist in their world. They are missing the strand: Empathy concern, so they do what is best for them in the moment without care, guilt or compassion irrespective of who gets hurt.

          It isn’t about choice, that is just the way it is for them and they are used to it. They probably look at us and wonder: what the hell is wrong with us!, because we put so much thought, effort or concern into how our decisions affect others, sometimes to our detriment, and that way of thinking is anathema to narcissists. It just isn’t functional in their world.

          If you do not have emotional empathy you cannot feel the “wrongness” or “badness” of your behaviour. There is no moral compass and there will never be one, ever.

          1. windstorm says:

            I think that if they’re really smart and have a lot of cognitive empathy, they can have a moral compass of sorts. It’s not as good as ours and not instinctive. But they can have one. Pretzel does. He certainly understands what is expected of society and modifies his behavior accordingly, because it benefits him.

            I do think this requires a lot of intelligence and logical thinking, though.

          2. K says:

            I agree; higher functioning narcs/psychopaths can have superb cognitive empathy. They are aware and intelligent enough to know that polite society functions smoother and to their benefit when they behave in a particular way.

            It is a cognitive “moral compass” (part of their facade) that they utilize to benefit themselves to further their aims and it is a very effective tool that only the higher functioning echelons possess.

            It is a spectacular form of manipulation when you think about it.

          3. K says:


            The best thing about intelligence and logic is its ability to slow down emotional thinking and that has a significant impact on impulsive behavior, which can yield prosocial results.

          4. shesaw says:

            Windstorm, yes (the moral adaptation requires a lot of intelligence and logical thinking) I believe so too. It will never be their ‘felt’ choice since it is based on intelligence, and not on instinct.

            The hardest part for them I believe is to tackle their instincts and be less malevolent because they rationally know that it is ‘the better way’ to be accepted.

            I still am curious to what exactly made HG want to make adaptations in his behaviour. It is hard to believe that he did it just for the sake of being less malevolent, or for ‘being a better person’. Where is the benefit? I read somewhere that he was less nasty on disengagement with his former IPPS. Why would that be? Is it a way of experimenting with other behaviour – which he expects to be useful for his new dynamic? I know some narcissists get kinda ‘tired’ of the endless cycle of idealise/devalue/discard. Maybe he is too? HG, would you mind to shed some light on that?

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Intellectual curiosity and being a pioneer.

          6. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha! Had a flash of a mental image of you covered in dust walking beside a wagon and mule as you trudged across the prairie!

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Trudge?! I’m on the stallion WS as well you know!!

          8. shesaw says:

            K, hi! I like the idea of ‘practicality’. Indeed, if you live without the empathic concern, basically what is left is ‘what’s best for me’ in this situation. It almost made me jealous of the non-complexity and straight-forwardness that must come from that!
            Greaters must have a more difficult job to do then (and a more satisfying one), because they will want to do the cognitive perspective-taking in order to maximise their effectiveness and rewards.

          9. K says:

            The lack of emotional concern allows them to move forward without a thought which is necessary for their survival.

            I think Greaters have the most fun because the manipulations appeal to their higher functioning capabilities and their sense of superiority. Let the games begin.

  11. trocadero says:

    What I am going to write is not necessarily related to this post in particular, but it does have something to do with “I want” (from the empath’s point of view).
    The other day I watched Bohemian Rhapsody and literally cried myself out. Why? One of the best vocals EVER in the world, such fame and money and still so miserable and unhappy, obviously due to the fact how his true self was never supported or allowed to be by his parents. A line when he says that it’s so difficult to fill the black hole when all the show lights switch off and he is alone with himself…reminded me of your sayings about the creature popping out – then it hit me that we empaths also have our own “creature” and in my case at least, nothing is ever enough, even if we do have a lot of ”outside” confirmations of our value, we will always feel the need for more. When I was still having the dynamics with my Narc mother I obviously didn’t need other ones, but as soon as I went no contact with her, and thought how I broke that abusive and toxic relationship, I got involved in a Narc affair. Now that’s it’s also gone, even though I have everything that I was hoping for as a girl (wonderful children and husband, great job, etc) I feel empty. And it sucks. From that point of view, I believe I am damaged in the same way as HG, it’s just that I don’t hurt other people to overcome that hole. But I do feel the same need for “fuel” from other people to feel worthy, and it is disturbing. Even though my husband loves and cares for me deeply, his ”fuel” apparently became stale for me too in a way, like it is a ”default” kind of love not giving me any more that feeling of worth I had for the first 10 y. So even in normal relationships you can feel empty at one point, and the problem is definitely in me. Until I learn how to love myself no matter what, I will be depressed. Such a difficult road to go, but I will continue. At least I have the hope to be able to nurture that wounded child in me, Narcs don’t. And yes, it was said here a lot of times how narcs and empaths are the opposite sides of the real coin, but there is really much more to it than that. The way we are handling our childhood traumas are different, in their case it’s to the detriment of others, in ours-we are our own punishers, and we don’t even need narcs in our life to do that.
    Sorry for the long post, but I had to spill that out of me today.

    1. Caroline R says:

      We understand your heartache.
      You expressed it well.

      1. Trocadero says:

        Thank you Caroline, it’s good to be understood. ‘Normal’ people cannot grasp this mechanism,they just see you as ungrateful. Like,how can you be unhappy,you have everything! And then those comparisons with people losing their kids for cancer and other tough-life stories,like I am willingly neglecting them. Yes,I do feel ungrateful myself as well when I look other people’s ‘real’ tragedies but that alone cannot help my inner voices change. I even stopped going to church and talking to my priest bc at this point I don’t need to be affected by judgements that oversee the cause of my feelings. Good luck to us all <3

    2. mommypino says:

      Trocadero, I could totally relate to you. Like Caroline R said, you expressed it well.

    3. Original Overthinker says:

      Totally relate to what you are saying and the guilt involved … x

  12. Jules says:

    My Liege, this is my favourite piece so far. Incredible.

    1. HG Tudor says:


  13. WriteItOut says:

    What happens when you don’t get any of these things you want? When the response to the provocations isn’t what you expected?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I would either be wounded or provided with challenge fuel. The former would result in the ignition of fury, the latter would require a response in order to suppress the challenge and assert control/superiority.

      1. WriteItOut says:

        And if repeatedly wounded because the fury has no effect, do you just keep on doing the same thing believing the desired outcome will eventually be received?

        Because I have no choice but to be around the narcissist at certain events, there are times when I decide not to go. I think that whether I’m there or not, she’s thinking about me because if I’m not there then she thinks there may be an opportunity to hoover my husband, or to get fuel from him. Maybe she thinks that we’re having problems and that’s why I’m not there, which I guess would present a challenge to her…can she get his attention? Either way I think that it doesn’t matter if I’m there or not, she’s obsessing about us, and me not being present provides her with a different kind of fuel than when I’m there.

        Plus I just like to fuck with her head by not showing up.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No. See the book Fury to understand what happens in the scenario you describe.

      2. Twilight says:


        Do you not enjoy a challenge thou and flexing those muscles of superiority and dominance over an individual?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Indeed I do.

          1. Twilight says:


            Hmmm I do not think it would wound you, you do your homework and worked out the best battle plan for the individual you have targeted, you would see it as a challenge.
            I believe it would be a snowballs chance of survival in Hell one would catch you unprepared.
            I do admire this, not the abuse dolled out yet your dedication to a perfect battle plan. If one can take emotion completely out of things, it is no different then admiring the workman’s ship and crafting of an exquisite blade. It takes planning and dedication, a delicate touch and precise pressure applied to specific spots for the end results. A heavy hand or to much pressure applied and the blade is ruined.

  14. G. says:

    Yeah .

  15. veronicajones1969 says:

    This Is why I don’t want to have any form of relationship with a narcissist well other than you HG and we live on two completely different continents I would also be incredibly surprised to find out I was your type, you might find it laughable but not even you could control me I’m sure you are affective but I’d rather be dead than controlled I don’t fear death I don’t fear being alone I don’t fear losing people I don’t fear reprisal the only thing I fear is one of your kind Getting under my skin again It’s not the pain someone puts me through It’s nothing that hasn’t already been done it’s the fact that once I love someone I can never stop And this makes me vulnerable to Hoovers only benign ones cruelty is a good way of keeping me at a distance I meet narcissists all the time I usually know what they are straight up And keep them at an emotional distance I’ve let one in 15 years And I want him to be the last I don’t like having to battle people even when they are trying to crush me but the only othe choice is to be a victim It’s not something I want to do it to self defence mechanism I developed from years of narcissistic abuse I know your kind just don’t stop you take it as a challenge if we don’t react you do something harder and harsher
    and Meaner and crueller until you eventually you break us or expose yourself because fury takes over at the lack of outward reaction or get some sick form of entertainment if we do react and then rub salt into the wound and giving the reaction always works out worse in my experience

  16. Leslie says:

    Tolerance for emotional crimes is coming to an end.

  17. mommypino says:

    This is why GOSO is the best action to take. Live our lives to the fullest without them and never giving them any value. Never looking back. They are only humans after all, they have no real power aside fron the power that we allow them to have over us. Psychologically.

  18. windstorm says:

    I realize that a greater would never actually say this to someone, he would implement it silently for maximum effect. Granted, coming to realize I was caught up in such malign, silent malice would be very scary.

    But reading thru it and imagining a narc actually saying this to me, I would burst out laughing! Not intentional laughing, but the spontaneous laughing of being surprised by something ridiculous! My first comment would be, “I didn’t realize that I was the center of your universe!” Probably not the wisest thing to say and do… lol!

    1. Caroline R says:

      Ha ha!
      I’m reminded of a time in the tearoom at work, when a particular smug cerebral N put his anaesthetic manbag down in my place that I’d briefly vacated.
      He’d do it deliberately and take my newspaper.
      He loved to micromanage me. He’d be trying to get my attention and hated me ignoring him while I read. He’d pontificate about my coffee, about my toast, everything. Really, it was like being stalked at close range.

      I find cerebral Ns to be repulsive toads, so there was no chance he was going to have me.
      One day, when the tearoom was full of other medical staff, I had the temerity to be reading yesterday’s newspaper, and that set him off on a micromanaging rant. I waited, then coolly said so everyone could hear
      “You’re so obsessed with me”.

      He was speechless and everyone smiled.
      I’m laughing about it now as I type.

      1. windstorm says:

        Caroline R
        That’s the type of comment exchange that I’m used to! Pretzel is a cerebral and they are my favorite type of narc. One reason is the banter you can have with them and not have to worry about eruptions of fury. They can’t help but acknowledge a witty comment – even if it’s in shocked silence because they can’t come up with a corresponding comeback!

        1. Mercy says:

          Windstorm, you’ve talked about pretzel as a cerebral in the past. I relate when you have said that you enjoy conversation with him because of his intellect. I have found that I miss the conversation (when it’s not crazy making) with BS. I have to say that BS is somatic though because of his obsession of wanting women to worship him (let’s not for get the sex, as if I could). That being said, is it possible that he is both? I was lead to believe it’s one or the other. There’s no doubt he is somatic, but the fact that he is intelligent and witty makes me pause. I’m just wondering if you know of anyone that is both.

          1. MB says:

            Mercy, Mercy, Mercy…do we know a narcissist that is both cerebral and somatic? Hmmmm…

          2. Mercy says:

            The Man? Well I thought so but I get confused with labels haha. I’m still waiting on his cheat sheet thats been kinda sorta promised. I’m a resource girl, horrible memory. Yes, after I asked the question it only makes sense they could be both.

          3. MB says:

            Mercy, after I commented, I worried I sounded like a smart ass. I’m glad I didn’t offend as it wasn’t my intention. I was truly surprised The Man didn’t set you straight.

            Yes, there is the victim, the somatic, the cerebral, and the elite (which is cerebral/somatic)

            As far as HG The Man goes, he’s in a school of his own. The Ultra.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Fucking A

          5. Mercy says:

            MB, I don’t offend easily. Smart ass is my preferred language.

            So we are victim huh? I wish we could request a cooler name. Elite makes sense now. I have seen this used but didnt know where to find the info. K was kind enough to give me a link once but i couldn’t find the thread when i wanted to go back to it.

            I’m sure he didn’t correct me because I should know all of this by now. Labels and titles were never important to me while I was in the thick of things. I was more focused on what was happening and trying to come to terms with it. Now I see the importance of knowing the difference.

            Ultra? Seriously is this real? I just googled and got nothing. I was hoping The Man would pop up.

          6. MB says:

            Mercy, there is a victim narcissist. A disgusting being indeed! That’s the victim I was referring to.

            I suppose we can consider ourselves victims in the sense that we are targeted and used for fuel harvesting.

            The Narc Detector service HG offers would be beneficial if you want to know all about the classification of “your” narcissist. I hope you will check it out. Christmas present to yourself?

            I don’t think there is any doubt that HG is one of a kind. His ability to understand and articulate the narcissistic perspective AND the empathic perspective is The Eight Wonder of the World as far as I’m concerned. Ultra doesn’t even do him justice.

            Hopelessly Smitten,

            ps The only pics you’ll find online of The Man are here on Narcsite. Don’t bother googling until he “comes out”.

          7. Mercy says:


            Oh ok. Yes I knew this about the victim narc. I just figured it was a description. I really do have to do a Narc Detector. I have additional questions. I know a MRN can be a victim but can they be elite as well. BS has victim traits but I didn’t realize this until a few years ago. I may be confusing victim with the fact that he can never be wrong. So everything is always someone else’s fault.

            Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. This gives me a starting point.

            Btw, I rather like the mystery of not knowing what he looks like.

          8. MB says:

            Narc Detector is worth every cent.

          9. NarcAngel says:

            Just a thought

            I know a lot of people don’t like the word victim (or appliance for that matter) I think it has been used because from the narcissist point of view thats what we are – their victim. Is it fair to say that victim is generally accepted early on in the ensnarement but it changes over time and becomes somewhat offensive as people see it played out and realize they have some control over moving forward? Is there another more preferable? Target? OP (other participant)? I wonder what people see themselves as or generally identify with. Could be interesting. I’d suggest a poll but I’m sure HG doesn’t care what we call ourselves as he has plenty of names for us lol.

          10. Mercy says:

            NarcAngel, the words such as appliance and victim were very hard for me to read in the beginning. I would say it made me feel shameful. I didn’t want to be seen this way. In my opinion, a victim is someone that needs to be saved. Someone that can’t help themselves. I’ve always taken pride in my Independence and being capable of dealing with the tough shit. But it was written so it must be true right? It wasn’t until I read a comment on dirty little secret that it all clicked. A reader was upset that she was DLS. I remember thinking “that’s just what the N thinks. That’s not who you are”. Ding ding ding I got it!

            Off subject, I was thinking of you the other day. My coworker informed me that there is a store called the container store. All of your organizing need in 1 store!! I had no idea. I went online and was so overwhelmed. I found a store 2 hours from my house so I plan to take a trip after the new year.

          11. NarcAngel says:

            Pick me up on the way by! (Give me a little notice so I can get some pantyliners).

          12. Mercy says:


            Will do! Road trip with NarcAngel. Nothing could go wrong right? At least there will be stories to tell haha.

          13. windstorm says:

            HG is both cerebral and somatic. I think it’s fairly common. If anything I think it’s rarer to just be cerebral. I used to wonder if I lived in another universe when I would read all the articles and comments about fantastic sex with narcs.

            I do love my Pretzel and he is a good man in many ways, but sex is not one of them! The best thing about my Pretzel and sex is since he wasn’t any good at it, he didn’t have sexual affairs with anyone else! And I never cared how many women he flirted with and charmed with his intellect. Lol!

          14. Mercy says:

            Haha windstorm talk about lemons to lemonade. That’s a good way to look at it. I know this is not a popular opinion but after awhile I didn’t really care about the other women. As long as he was meeting my needs (not just sex) I felt like I could handle it. Two problems made that not possible. STDs, my health is more important than him and the fact that he just can’t resist hurting me.

            He has potential to be good in some ways but he can’t get there. He’s just short of tolerable. It would be too much work for him and he’s not willing to give when he can take so easily. It’s very sad

          15. windstorm says:

            Other women would have been a deal breaker for me. If I could put up with living with him and raising his children, the least he could do was spare me the humiliation of him having affairs.

            I told him that as much smarter than me as he was, and as gifted a liar as he was that if I found out he was having an affair it would be because he didn’t even bother to keep it hidden. If he publicly disrespected me that way, then one night when he was sound asleep I would blow his head off with no warning. I know he believed me and I’m sure it was a powerful incentive to sexual faithfulness. But he prefers getting his fuel other ways that require less effort.

        2. Twilight says:


          I used to enjoy conversations with my ex, he was a cerebral greater. At least until what I now see was me not only telling him yet showing him I was superior to him from his perspective. I am older, experience and an Empath he never encountered before. He taught me many things thou.

          1. windstorm says:


            I’m sure there is nothing I could ever do or say that could cause the Pretzel to think I am superior to him! That would be an impossibility. He can believe I know more about a certain subject than him, that my grammar is better, that I am a better speller. There are many things that I can do better than him, but that just makes them unimportant things. His confidence in his superiority is unshakable.

      2. Caroline R says:

        Hi Windstorm
        And everyone else who prefers cerebral Ns:
        Please forgive me if I have caused you any offense, or insulted you or your taste.
        I apologise!

        I should qualify what I said by ‘repulsive toads’.
        These are the ones I’ve met who have no other allurements but their intellect, and are either distainful in their arrogance, or obnoxious and rude. Or have no personal style. They are all doctors, so that’s the sum total of my research.
        I would love to have my research findings altered by a greater volume of sample subjects.
        I will readily alter my position when new facts are presented and verified.

        What I mean when I state my preference is that I need handsomeness and aesthetic allurements as well as the irresistible intellect, and that sense of energy that makes you burn and melt simultaneously, and want his hands on you, and you know HE wants his hands on you too. I like athletic and smart, and handsome in one package. The quick mind and in-depth knowledge does make me very happy. Especially at work. I’d work everyday for those rewards.

        The way you describe your Pretzel, (except for the less than spectacular sex abilities), I think I would have had a huge crush on him too. He was clever and could do anything he put his hand to, and had a physical presence, wouldn’t you say? He was outgoing, articulate, charming and confident. I understand your attraction to him.

        Again, please forgive me if I have offended anyone. I never intended to. I haven’t had good sleep recently, and it makes me not think as clearly before I speak.

        1. Windstorm says:

          Caroline R

          “no other allurements but their intellect, and are either distainful in their arrogance, or obnoxious and rude.”

          Ha, ha! Apt description of my Pretzel!

          No, he definitely does NOT have “handsomeness and aesthetic allurements as well as the irresistible intellect, and that sense of energy that makes you burn and melt simultaneously, and want his hands on you, and you know HE wants his hands on you too.” No way! 😝. Never in his life would that have described him. He has never been what one would call “handsome.”

          He does definitely have a physical presence but I’m having a hard time describing it. He can be scary intimidating if he feels it necessary. That’s usually reserved any more for belligerent male narcs coming through the justice system -particularly if they think they can intimidate him.

          If I had to describe his presence with one word, I think it’d be “disruptive.” He is impossible to ignore, chaos swirls in his wake and he automatically takes over every situation. He subjects one and all to a teasing dark wit and humor.

          He is an instigator. He must constantly be doing and saying things to annoy or amuse and is happiest when doing both simultaneously. For my part, I have always been most attracted to his confidence and ease in all public situations (one of my greatest weaknesses) and the ease with which he takes over and manipulates while entertaining his audience – often without those being manipulated having any idea of what he’s doing.

      3. K says:

        Ha ha ha….we are nameless, faceless, interchangeable objects in this dynamic. I don’t mind appliance, victim or target; I have been called worse.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I don’t mean by the narcissist. I mean in referring to each other, but also was curious how people saw themselves. If they identify with victim or some other description and in what phase they were in.

          Haha I hear you though – I’ve been called lots of things worse, and not all from narcissists. .

          1. windstorm says:

            I’ve never thought of myself as a victim, definitely NOT an appliance. I’m just “me.” If I had to have a label, “empath” seems appropriate. Shoot, I could go with “minion”, given the nicer, cartoon version.

            Personally, I don’t think labels have much intrinsic meaning. Everyone is so different and when we assign labels, then we think we understand, but reality may be much different, since we may have different ideas about what the label means. There’s a large part of me that believes we are all the same inside and our personalities don’t define us any more than our hair and eye color. But I think I’m diverging away from what you’re looking for….

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Ok scrap that thought lol.
            It was just that many people have noted that they hate being referred to as a victim, so I’m concious of it when I write it but don’t know what else to use. I’m with you and could not care less what someone calls me, although I do find HGs schools and cadres quite helpful in separating the different behaviours. It explains why people do not identify narcissism so easily and why empaths can react so differently. Must be having a bad day. Now I’m just wondering why I wonder about anything.

          3. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha! You’ll be meditating soon😄

            I was trying to participate in your survey. I think “victim” is more of a stage we go thru. Once we’re on the other side of it, we don’t identify with it anymore. I used to sometimes feel like a victim decades ago, but I never was sure.

            It’s more of a mindset. My MIL taught me that. All my blood kin had always told me how selfish and weak I was, but she said that was rubbish. If I’d been weak and selfish I’d never have been able to stand what all I’d been thru and still be a successful mother and full-time teacher.

            She taught me that feeling like a victim means you’ve given power over your life to someone else. Stop doing that and you won’t be a victim anymore. – you’d have really enjoyed talking to my MIL. She was a real no-nonsense, tell-it-like-it-is person. You all would have gotten along really well!

          4. NarcAngel says:

            Your MiL was right about you and I’m glad you had her in your life. Yes, I would have enjoyed meeting her.

          5. Saskia says:

            NA, my comment is not directed at you in particular, but I have thought about that a lot and think that those questions are important to learn and become aware of one’s fair share of responsibility. I don’t know about others, but I don’t consider myself an ‘innocent’ victim. One reason is that, unlike others, I don’t know in which category I actually fit which is not unimportant when reflecting on the dynamic.

            As of yet, I can establish that I actively engaged in the toxic dynamic with the MRN I was intimately involved with because I got something out of it as well. It was a choice I made many years ago despite my weird gut feeling in the early beginning and the red flags I was aware of back then. It was also a choice to be repeatedly sucked back in whenever he hoovered me despite several decisions made by me to leave and go no contact. In retrospect and with the knowledge I have gathered so far, I see that I got something out of being in that narcissistic dynamic – there were elements that I believe ‘served’ me and those ‘ego issues’ I had/have as well, and that validated my (unhealthy and distorted) longstanding beliefs about relationships, attention, and love, but also rejection/abandonment. I ‘allowed’ myself to be abused and manipulated – that does not make me a victim because I am responsible for my choice to remain and engage. I feel that in my case, the label ‘victim’ would render me help- and clueless and prevent becoming aware of my responsibility and accountability. I would instead consider myself a target in the early stages -as in being targeted for qualities he saw in me – and, later on, as an active participant in our dynamic – I think the suggestion fits quite well in my case. This is my perspective, one of many, based on my experience.

            I should imagine that someone who is targeted and seduced in the calculated and strategic way HG has extensively written about could be considered a ‘victim’ in the early stages because he or she cannot possibly be aware of the atrocities to come and of the veiled machinations in the background. That is my understanding – I might be wrong here.

          6. NarcAngel says:

            Thank you for your reply. It can be (and has proved to be previously) a very touchy subject for some, so I really appreciate your honesty regarding your involvement. Interesting that you refer to ego, as I have also referred to the ego of the empath and it did not always go over well. There are those that are offended by the use of victim and yet others that will accept nothing else, but of course people are at different stages. I agree with you that it is important to determine what one is getting out of it in order to move on and prevent it from happening again. I think some people confuse recognition with blame or fault. It is neither. I think target might be a better fit because that is initially what the empath is (unbeknownst to them) regardless their subsequent behaviour or involvement with the narcissist.

          7. Saskia says:

            NA, thank you very much for your answer to my comment, and I agree with what you have written. It is a touchy and complex subject indeed, understandably so.

            I know that you referred to the ego of the empath in some previous comments and I decidedly agreed with that notion earlier on this blog. I don’t want to unnecessarily stretch that topic further but wanted to comment on the ego-related issues for clarification. One of the early questions I was confronted with by a counsellor was where I would recognise, in our dynamic, that I made much of what happened, in a reverse sense, about me, i.e. relating certain behaviours or actions by others to me, ego – even though the dynamic seemed so different on the surface. That notion was hard to swallow at first, and I would initially reject it. It was so much easier to focus on the other rather than self. In my case, making much of what happened about myself in a reversed sense was, e.g., reflected by engaging in a constant competition with other women he was (blatantly) triangulating with or, in a more covert way, by repeatedly instigating fruitless discussions about specific behaviours and trying to get my point across rather than acknowledge the situation for what it was and fold. I, unconsciously, believed that abusive behaviours that were beyond my control were about something I did or said, thus making me, as far as I understand, ‘special’ by remaining and trying to fix, rather than acknowledge the fact that his true character presented over time, regardless of who he was involved or interacted with. This is why, in my case, I named ego-related issues, that were not obvious at first, and that played a significant role in the whole dynamic.

            I agree with you that people feel different with regards to terms and labels – or might even feel offended – and that it depends on the stages they are in, how they regard themselves, which school of narcissist they were involved with or the type and extent of abuse they suffered. The topic is very sensitive, and many different perceptions have their validity. It is healthy and necessary to acknowledge the abuse, to feel and release that anger that has built up over time and to vent and rant if necessary, not blame oneself or try and take responsibility for other people’s behaviours. But it is equally important not to ‘bullsh*t’ – I don’t mean that in an offensive way – oneself either which is a crucial step to move forward, as you have written. It is a relief and empowering to realize that, while there are things in life that are beyond our control, much about how we react to and interact with different people still is in our control.

        2. MB says:

          I don’t mind giving positive fuel. Just one of my many mad skills.

      4. ava101 says:

        Cerebral narc doesn’t mean, he isn’t beautiful … and v.v. actually ….
        and I have never met a narc who isn’t concerned in some form with his looks, even if it is reversed.

        1. MB says:

          Ava101, many victim narcissists are not concerned with their appearance or hygiene.

      5. ava101 says:

        Funny actually to say “prefer” a cerebral narc. ;D

        I have read some time ago an article on psychopaths, about the common notion that they were more intelligent and even better looking that other people (haha) …
        Anyways, it seems that mind over matter applies here somehow, as obviously some psychopaths manage to appear better looking and more intelligent than many people, because they are obsessed with it themselves, and somehow make it so …
        Objectively … neither more intelligent nor better looking, but convinced themselves of this and kind of managing to make others believe the same. ;D

      6. ava101 says:

        Yes, they are, MB, they use it just the same. In my opinion and experience. And in very manipulative ways.

        Also sometimes in a way to show they are superior to people trying to look nice.

      7. K says:

        Ha ha ha…I know, right. So many colorful monikers. I don’t mind target or victim. I use both IRL.

      8. Caroline R says:

        That’s an interesting description, thank you. I love reading your descriptions of things.
        Pretzel sounds like a man you’d instantly notice and follow around. He sounds intriguing, and I can imagine how addictive that restless energy would be. He would bring an intensity to life, both good and bad.
        Where were you married, and what did you wear?
        Where did you first live?

        1. windstorm says:

          Caroline R
          I just happened to open this thread and saw all these questions in comments WordPress didn’t send me! I’ll try to answer.

          I was married in a wooden garage with no doors (just built) at the bottom of a hill. It was on my parents small home farm. My mother and the Pretzel had renovated an outbuilding into a small house next to her house. That’s where I was living and where we lived after we were
          Married for the first 4 years. After that we bought our own farm and I designed and he and our families built the house we lived in for the next 25 years.

          I had just spent the summer in Europe and attended the University of Valencia. While traveling in Paris I found and bought a floor length white cotton dress with hand crocheted lace. I thought it would be a perfect wedding dress. I hauled it all over Europe, but made it home with it.

          I designed and paid for the wedding myself (my mother didn’t want me to have a wedding since her father refused to pay for her to have one), baked my own wedding cakes and decorated the garage with cedar branches and colorful fall foliage.

          We wrote our own vows. I was damn sure not going to “obey” and I didn’t want him saying garbage he wouldn’t do either. I refused to let my father give me away (since I didn’t belong to him, nor would I belong to the Pretzel). Neither he nor my mother ever forgave me for that. We did not have wedding rings because Pretzel refused to wear one and if he wouldn’t, then neither would I.

      9. Caroline R says:

        What is your gravitar today? It’s too tiny for me to see clearly.

        1. windstorm says:

          An inflatable Minion holding a Christmas wreath. It’s in front of my screened in front porch.

      10. Caroline R says:

        Did Pretzel sleep long hours or only a few hours each night?
        Did he sleeptalk?
        Did he have dreams, or talk about them?
        Did he ever have glimpses of his creature?
        Was he a meticulous planner, or more spontaneous?
        What did he do for work? I remember you said you were farming for a time. That’s hard slog, and has never-ending maintenance associated with it.

      11. mommypino says:

        Ava 101, I believe that I have read before that psychopaths have beautiful skin that has an attractive glow to it because they have more testosterone than normal people.

      12. Jenna says:


        Looks like Windstorm isn’t getting notifications on comments in this thread, as she metioned earlier. Since I know the answer to one of your questions, I can answer it. Pretzel is an attorney.

      13. Jenna says:


        When I first came to narcsite, I was not too comfortable with the ‘victim’ label either, but I gradually accepted it and it actually helped me to feel pretty blameless about everything that happened. Now, in retrospect, I no longer am so comfortable with that label, and would rather have a label indicative of how much I allowed unacceptable behavior to take place. Perhaps participant is a good word, but that word gives me a little too much responsibility for the occurrences, which my ego does not want me to accept. I wonder what label I would be willing to accept. I really don’t know.

  19. Pj says:

    Incredible acurate writing.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  20. Liz says:

    That’s why you need to get out and stay out

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