It is fair to state somewhat euphemistically that death is an inconvenience for everyone. In respect of my kind and me, it causes all manner of problems and issues which are especially irksome. Death generally only affects people in two respects. Their own death and the death of other people. Our responses to those two aspects are far-removed from that of the reactions of ordinary people and especially those of an empathic nature.

First of all, how do we regard the death of someone else. The demise of a stranger causes to response from us unless we realise that in order to maintain the façade that it would be advantageous to say “the right things” and come out with those empty platitudes that people do so often when they read of a tragedy somewhere. When this happens and somebody makes mention of some loss of life, perhaps the drowning of a toddler who was not being properly supervised and fell into a bath or the consequence of an aeroplane crashing, I observe the reactions of the collective with interest. There are the expressions of shock, the declarations of horror and how this is such a terrible event. As I watch and listen I do wonder who the greater charlatans are in this event. Is it me who does not care and cannot care but pretends to do so in order to maintain my precious façade or is it those who claim to care about somebody they never knew and would never have known?

If the death of someone is closer to home, a friend or a family member then my reaction is no different save that it is laced with irritation and indeed often anger at the loss of someone who was a source of fuel for me. If that person forms a supplementary source, then there is irritation at this loss but this person can readily be replaced with a new member rising to form part of my coterie. If the person who has been lost to the hand of the grim reaper is a primary source of fuel, then I am consumed with fury. How could this person treat me in this fashion? I gave them everything and then they leave me in the most complete fashion, with no chance of that sweet, sweet restoration. This departure amounts to a criticism of me, a reminder that even someone as great and powerful as I was unable to prevent the removal of a potent source of fuel. Thus this criticism ignites my fury and I rage at the injustice of their death. Some who witness this might mistake this response for an outburst of grief at the taking of this person. It is not that. It is the explosion of wrath at someone who was so potent to me escaping me and thus denying me my rightful fuel and denying me the opportunity to put in place a replacement. I do not mourn their passing away. I rage at the passing of my fuel source.

Do not expect to see me attend the funerals of those that are regarded as supposedly close to me and where my attendance might otherwise be expected. I will not be there. I know there are those of our kind who revel in the drama and the high emotion that is attached to a funeral and regard it as a honey pot for the acquisition of fuel. There are those of our kind who will hijack the occasion and make it all about them, wailing and shedding those false tears in order to draw well-meant sympathy from the other attendees. There are those of our kind who will create a scene at the funeral, arriving late, arriving drunk, collapsing part way through the service, making a snide remark in a loud stage whisper in order to draw reactions from everyone else that is there. Yes, many of our kind will attend and exhibit their over-acted grief purely to draw attention to themselves and away from the person who is now lying in the cold, hard ground. Our kind will express their huge sense of loss, how the deceased was such a wonderful father, caring mother, beloved uncle or best friend. Such a shameless performance which is carefully choreographed in funereal black to maximise the opportunity to have the spotlight shine on them and thus drink up all the attendant fuel. A disagreement will be provoked with another family member and harsh words exchanged. Over the top blubbing will take place with cries of “Don’t leave me!” as the coffin is lowered. The occasion of death and the attended ceremony provides a wonderful stage to our kind to perform our sick routines to make it all about us, fashioned from the pretence of actually caring. We do not care. We cannot care. We resent the fact that this person has escaped us. We resent the fact that everybody is turning out to pay their respects to the deceased and not training their attention onto us which is where it should belong. Should you ever witness melodrama at a funeral do not mistake it for the exaggerating effects of grief and loss, you are observing one of our kind milking the moment for all it is worth.

That is the response of many of our kind to the loss of a “loved one” or a “close friend” who has passed away after a full life or taken too soon. It is not my response. I have only ever attended one funeral in my life and that was the funeral of my father. I only broke my own protocol to do this as a consequence of the diktat from my mother and also at the behest of my younger brother who begged me to accede to her request so that she would not erupt and undermine the occasion of our father’s death. I duly obliged, just the one, purely in order to satisfy my desires however. I wanted to rein in my mother’s theatrics and watch how she really responded to the death and subsequent committing to another place of my father. You may well have read elsewhere in my works of that particular day. That was the only time that I have attended a funeral and I did it to further my own understanding and in order to loathe in my own private way the way my mother was behaving. That gave me tremendous satisfaction.

Thus, I only broke my protocol of non-attendance once and shall not do so again. Why is it that I will not attend funerals when there is such a prime opportunity to take centre stage and draw greedily on all the available fuel? It is a simple reason enough. I will not attend funerals because I do not wish to be reminded of my own mortality. Like a medieval monarch who stayed away from funerals, even of the preceding monarch and his own wives and offspring, because it would cause others to contemplate the death of the current monarch, something which was treasonable, I too will not attend. I have no desire to contemplate my demise. I do not want to recognise that one day all of this must end for this offends my notion of omnipotence. I do not wish to linger at the edge of the abyss that is life, staring into the nothingness of oblivion. Such is the finality of the mortal end to one’s existence, it engenders and raises the very prospect of that extinction that I fight against each and every day through the acquisition of fuel to maintain my construct and keep myself from being consigned into oblivion. To contemplate a mortal death is to invite the horrifying reality of the extinguishing of who I wish to be and that which I must not let happen.

I do not fear my mortal death for I will have my legacy in place and thus I shall live on through that. No, what I would rather not be reminded of, through the occurrence of the passing of others and the subsequent surrounding ceremony, is that I sometimes teeter on the brink on annihilation. The thought of that fills me with despair, only for myself and therefore I choose not to engage in that which will so forcefully and rudely remind me of it.

I know death embraces all eventually. I am not a foolish man and that is why I have worked to secure my legacy so that I may out stride death.

I care not, save for the loss of my fuel, when its cold hand snuffs out the life of others. Our type does not mourn the death of others. We are unable to do so. We are not equipped to achieve this. Never expect any sincere mourning to ever be evidenced by our kind.

I care not to contemplate what mortal death signifies for me in my ongoing struggle to keep such annihilation at bay.

86 thoughts on “Death

  1. WhoCares says:


    It is never a good thing to be constantly anxious – I’m glad you have found something that works that well for you…I know meds are definitely the answer for some people.

    I’m actually quite an anxious person a lot of the time…but I work on *not* being so in different ways and I experience *much* less anxiety since I’ve gone no contact with my narcs.

    Generalized anxiety is no picnic for sure…I think mine is only situational and comes and goes. But everyone must judge for themselves the best course of action to resolve those feelings – whatever it takes; always better to reduce anxiety levels, of of course it takes its toll on your physical health as well.

    1. WhoCares says:

      I meant: *otherwise* it (anxiety) takes its toll on your physical health.

    2. MB says:

      WC, I would rather be dead than to have to live with that level of constant angst again.

      The bipolar II hypomania gave me lots of brilliant ideas and the energy and less need for sleep to start many wonderful things. Unfortunately, the ultimate crash of depression left my projects and dreams unfinished and my life in chaos. I’m better off with my brilliance muted and my life more mundane. I do miss those “highs” where everything I touched turned to gold at least for a while. I’d never go back though. It took years to sort out all my wreckage.

  2. Mona says:

    I hesitated for a while to write at all. All the people here appreciate you and your feelings and they see you as a very lovable, respectable individual. And I do too.
    Perhaps, you do not feel normal, because you were surrounded by people since your early childhood, who were completely different?
    The other ones seemed to be normal, not you. Maybe, this feeling of defectiveness comes from your past and it still influences your life now. And in some way I do understand that you are overwhelmed by negative emotions – you have had enough of them in your past and it is your right to say or to feel : “I do not want them anymore.” You cannot change your family, but you can look out for people, who like you as you are and who want the same or similar like you. I wish you the very best.

    1. windstorm says:

      Thank you. You are totally right about my childhood. I did feel I was defective because I was different from my family. And unfortunately, just because you understand something doesn’t keep it from still affecting you at times.

      But I’ve been dealing with this nearly my entire life. Maybe it’s sort of like when you’ve had a crippling illness as a child and there’s permanent scarring that makes it difficult to interact in certain activities all your life. It never goes away, but you learn to live with it and do the best you can.

      Have a very Merry Christmas, Mona! 🎄❤️

      1. Mona says:

        Thank you, Windstorm.
        Yes, it is like a crippling illness. But at least you know now, there is a new medicine against it, which helps a little bit. (HG`s blog).

        Tomorrow it is time for baking and cooking. I send you some piece of virtual cake and a good cup of coffee. Do you like cheese cake and apple pie or fruit salad?

        Merry Christmas, Windstorm.

        1. windstorm says:

          I love all three of those things! I will think of you baking and imagine how good everything is! The only thing I ever bake is occasionally corn bread. I can make coffee, though! I order my Christmas treats from Amazon. 😄
          Merry Christmas!🎄

  3. Persephone says:

    Didn’t you just attend the GHWB funeral in the US? What was that experience like for you? (If that was a correct assumption) Did you notice any over the top Narcissistic behavior in others? Or do you not discuss this, as discretion would be key to your position?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It’s a silent treatment on this one!

  4. Bubbles🍾 says:

    Dearest Windstorm
    What you may not realise… is… that you “pay it forward”
    You are so loved needed and wanted here
    You are Mother Earth … wise knowledgeable and a very steady influence
    I missed you very much when you were in Japan
    We love you so much.. we just expect you to be here with words of wisdom, advice and humour
    You’re such a stable influence and I’m forever in gratitude that “little ol you” is part of my life and helped in so many ways you couldn’t even begin to imagine
    I wanted “out” when I was in my early 20’s … I had no one at that time
    I called an ambulance and here I am today

    I think of you every single day because there’s always a wind or storm somewhere in this beautiful world
    I’m better for knowing you
    Stay strong beautiful lady … you give more than you know… my heartfelt thank you ☺️
    Luv Bubbles 🥰 ❌❌

    1. windstorm says:

      Thank you so much Bubbles. That was very sweet! But then, you are a very sweet person. We all help each other here as we are learning. That’s one of the great things about this site. It touches my heart that you think of me sometimes when there are windstorms. Your comments often make me smile and brighten my day! Have a very Merry Christmas!🎄 ❤️

      1. Bubbles🍾 says:

        Dearest Windstorm,
        Thank you lovely lady
        I luv wind and I luv storms … nature is just so beautiful …..(just like you)
        Wishing you a magical Yuletide festive season …. may Santa leave you many special surprises
        Heartfelt thank you’s for being you and for being here
        The Merriest Christmas n Happiest 2019 🎄
        Luv Bubbles xx 🤗🤶🏻😘🎁💖

  5. mommypino says:

    So I got emails from my brother inviting me to scatter our sister’s ashes in the coast if Mendocino. None of the three people that she didn’t ostrasize can come. It will be just me and our brother and sister in law. I have to say even though I said a lot of negative stuff about her here, I still really do love her and miss her. I’m happy to be there with our brother. It was unfortunate that she had a disorder. Mendocino was where I had my first Thanksgiving and she had such a big and sophisticated personality showing me around Mendocino and picking the fanciest restaurants to have dinner. Our dad paid for it all but the food were so amazing in all of the restaurants that she picked. She was larger than life. I’m still thankful that I got to meet her. ❤️

  6. Bubbles🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    My mum wanted me to take piccies with her dearly departed loving husband laying in his open silk coffin in the beautiful clothes I had previously selected
    She was all smiles.. as if she were having selfies
    When I showed her the piccies … she said “I look quite good don’t I”
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    (Mr Tudor, will you attend your mother’s funeral?)

  7. WhoCares says:


    “My husband survived but has a severe brain injury. Rather than helping myself, my husband and our three children I’m imbroiled in a complex legal battle with a pack of blood thirsty Narcs.”

    I’m so sorry for your experience RG – it is bad enough being in legal dispute with a narc (I know from personal experience) and the ways in which they manage to draw these things out…but to have the added stress of your husband’s health *and* three little ones to worry after…I can’t imagine it.
    But that is my experience as well; when you’re at your lowest narcs will show their true colours and heap extra – needless – stress at a time when healing, for you, should be paramount.

    Share your pain here – because we do *get it* when others may not…

    1. RG says:

      Thank you xx
      I’m either paying for Karma as if I was Hitler in a past life or I’m being tested for something other worldly!! With all this going on my baby boy is due his 4th open heart surgery 😢… feel like I need i violin playing in the back ground!! Anyhow! Moving on and upwards…
      Can only hope that Karma comes back and bites them hard, however from my readings so far all I can understand is that as a Narc has no feelings so they will be unaffected by anything!!?

      Focusing on my babies, husband and myself. 31k has been spent in court so far! I’ve sacked off the solicitor and I’m doing it alone now! My name translates to Warrior Princess haha! Maybe it is my destiny to fight!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Not that I believe in karma, but if you do, at least you understand the concept. So many people get it wrong.

  8. RG says:

    Thanks for the comments back. I guess I should know by now!! On my husbands heart stopping for 33 minutes (cardiac arrest) my Narc-in-laws were just consumed with rage and fury not emotional pain and termoil.
    My husband survived but has a severe brain injury. Rather than helping myself, my husband and our three children I’m imbroiled in a complex legal battle with the pack of blood thirsty Narcs. F*#king hate them! Never felt hate before in my life!!! Just not built that way…
    Think my only escape is relocation or death itself!!!

  9. kel says:

    When a colleague at the office passed away shockingly and unexpectedly, who was also a close buddy of my narc boss, another girl and I went in to chat with him about it and hear the details of what happened. He seemed to enjoy talking with us about it and the respect and authority we had for him about it, and dismissed his assistant who came to the door so he could continue our conversation. Now of course I know he enjoyed the attention he got from it, he wasn’t teary-eyed, even had a polite smile on his face. He managed to be out of town during the funeral.

  10. mommypino says:

    My Mid-range half sister told me that our dad was so insensitive to her and her (our) other sister when their mom died. She said that they were overcome with grief so they both ran after the Crematorium’s car that took their mom’s body while they were crying. She said that dad said that they were embarrassing to the neighbors for wailing and crying after the car. When our dad died I was also depressed but I wasn’t overcome with sorrow enough to run after my dad’s body as he was being taken away. Then I listened to one of your Q and As and heard you mention that narcs sometimes use death to get attention. That was probably what they were doing.

    1. k says:

      My ULN’s family was very dramatic. Lots of wailing and keening and an uncle clutched his heart and dramatically collapsed to the floor during the wake so an ambulance had to be called. All very embarrassing. I didn’t know what to make of it then.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        I had an Aunt throw herself wailing on the coffin of her father whom she had been defrauding of money right up until his death. The tears were for herself of course but oh the attention! StepNarc tried to cry at his mothers funeral. He kept squeezing his eyes together (and his fists I noticed) but he could not produce a drop. Instead he looked like he was constipated and trying to pinch a loaf. He was across from me and looked right at me. I laughed (silenty) in his face and he stopped.

        1. HG Tudor says:


        2. K says:

          Ha ha ha…they are very dramatic and it is quite amusing when you think about it.

      2. Caroline R says:

        Ha ha!
        StepN trying to cry.
        Inside his head are desert sand dunes, and in his heart are tumbleweeds!
        Good try with the tears. Was never gonna happen unless his mother suddenly sat up and said “I’m back!”.
        Or if someone hit him in the crotch with a hammer.

      3. mommypino says:

        NA, that was too funny! My Lesser mom was the same whenever she tried to do a pity play and tried to squeeze a tear out. She had the ugliest face with the way that she was contorting it. 😂🤣

  11. mommypino says:

    This is probably a really sensitive topic so if it isn’t appropriate kindly delete. I was just wondering if a narc’s behavior causes somebody like an IPPS to commit suicide, would that ignite fury or would that fuel him/her?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Please see – ‘Why The Narcissist Wants You Dead’

      1. mommypino says:

        Thank you!

  12. Leslie says:

    The competing drama queens and the fraudulent theatrics are boring.

  13. 69Revolver says:

    And on that happy note…..
    Alexa, play “Another one bites the dust.”

    1. Caroline R says:

      Ha ha!
      That’s another classic N-ringtone.

      1. 69Revolver says:


  14. RG says:

    H G, do you have children?

    1. HG Tudor says:


    2. RG says:

      Ok, thanks… Surely the death of ones on child – Narc included would cause emotional pain and termoil?

      1. veronicajones1969 says:

        No it’s a really good performance opportunity for them to get attention that they utilise for years I grew up with a extremely narcissistic mother she actually poisoned me to make me sick so that she could get attention and if it gave me any attention I would get a beating verbally physically and mentallythey don’t love anyone it’s the hardest thing for people like us to understand but it’s the fact That we have to except to be able to get any freedom from the abuse to stop blaming ourselves they have many faces none of which are real except possibly the one where they want to hurt you

      2. Anm says:

        No, RG. Narcissist do not really grieve children. Not even their own. This is one aspect of narcissism that is hard for normal or empathic people to wrap their minds around. They see children, especially their own, as possesions. If their is fuel or attention to gain from children, they will do so. I have seen my ex deal with death, and deaths/funerals are used to gather fuel.
        On another note, this is also why victims of narcissistic abuse should not “end it all”, by ending their own life. It will not expose the narcissist, nor get back at them. It will just be one final gift of fuel for them to relish in. Sad but true.

      3. WhoCares says:


        The only actual turmoil a narc would experience at the death of a child would be over the loss of a fuel source – but the narc would milk it for all it’s worth using such a loss to garner sympathy fuel etc…while overtly expressing their ‘pain’ at losing a child.

        1. windstorm says:

          That explains why the Pretzel always said he thought people who committed suicide were totally selfish. They only thought about ending their own pain and selfishly deprived others of their fuel.

          1. WhoCares says:


            Wow..your Pretzel was self-aware, correct? Did he actually express that to you? I mean, in reference to whatever he conceptualized ‘fuel’ as?

          2. windstorm says:

            Not sure how to answer this. Pretzel is aware that he is a narcissist and understands what he does and that he gets a rush from manipulating others. We have talked about this at various times over the years. I doubt he’s ever thought of it as “fuel”, but he does know that he can not go long without it.

            He bores ridiculously easy and we often joke about it and how he has to be interacting with people practically all the time. He realizes he is not like most people in that he only has cognitive empathy. He spots other narcs easily and we often talk about them (usually midrangers or lessers and how they irritate him or how he put them in their place).

            He loves to manipulate others but often they are unaware that they are being manipulated. I suppose one of my roles in our relationship is like a witness. I notice his machinations and he enjoys this. Often we will discuss them or if I didn’t catch what he did, he will explain it to me. His colleagues at the court house serve this function at work.

            He really enjoys an appreciative audience for how clever or successful he is. And I will admit, when he’s regaling me with how he tore a new one in some low-life narc abuser in family court, I feel a lot of satisfaction and pride in him – and I don’t hesitate to show it!

          3. WhoCares says:


            “He really enjoys an appreciative audience for how clever or successful he is. And I will admit, when he’s regaling me with how he tore a new one in some low-life narc abuser in family court, I feel a lot of satisfaction and pride in him – and I don’t hesitate to show it!”

            WS – Regardless of how you meant to answer I still find your description of relationship dynamics with your Pretzel fascinating…so thanks for going in depth on that. Also, it struck me this time on reading the nature of your interactions with your narc, that while you may have been shorted in area of sex in your entanglement – I was shorted in the area of intellectual conversation and witty banter! (No wonder the jealousy felt by my narc was palpable in the air when I shared convos and jokes I had had with male co-workers…I had the good sex, but never the banter with him…)

            And hopefully you won’t mind me turning this into a question for HG…

            “I suppose one of my roles in our relationship is like a witness. I notice his machinations and he enjoys this. Often we will discuss them or if I didn’t catch what he did, he will explain it to me.”

            Do we serve this function for you, in any fashion, HG – as witnesses?

            Ultimately, whatever you share with the good doctors is ‘witnessed’ but they have their own particular end goal (?) with regard to your behaviour.

          4. windstorm says:

            Just saw what this was in relation to. I answered a different question than I thought you meant!

            As to the suicide, he said that everyone’s life is hard – that’s just the nature of life. Suicides are selfish because they are only thinking about sparing themselves the future pain of living, with no concern for how their death with affect others. I’m the one who put the fuel spin on it, but I imagine that’s what he did mean.

            It irritates him when someone suicides. The exception was my father. Daddy’s suicide didn’t bother him. He considered it a good thing because now taking care of Daddy was no longer a problem. Sad as that is, it was true.

          5. WhoCares says:


            “Everyone’s life is hard” That’s magnanimous of your Pretzel; considering how much more difficult narcs can make life.

            I suppose that they could view it as extra selfish cause not only does someone’s death take the focus off of *them* for a bit but the act of suicide means a person died intentionally (instead of due to sickness/accident etc..) and as a result drew attention away from them…

            If I’m honest with myself, I can see his view of sucide of being selfish…or not that word exactly but…’self-focused.’ I don’t mean to make judgement upon anyone – because I truly can’t fully understand another’s pain if they are at a point where self-harm feels like an option…it’s just if I view my own personal situation and I decided to leave this world – there would be two narcs left fighting over an innocent child. So I tend not to indulge those conversations with others because I fail to see how one can reach that point…

            When I hear those words “everyone’s life is hard” they are closely followed by my favourite aunt’s words “Who has the luxury of falling apart?”

            I know that may sound harsh to some but they are words that I live by.

          6. windstorm says:

            My Pretzel’s words he lives by are “Life is hard and then you die.”

            I have fought being suicidal since I was 12. I intimately understand the pain and feelings of hopelessness when you feel suicide is your best choice. But for all his intelligence, Pretzel can never feel that pain. He would never voluntarily end his life – he’ll cling to life as absolutely long as possible no matter how rough it gets -and he lacks the empathy to understand the hopelessness of being suicidal. That level of emotion is a closed book to him. He looks at it logically, because that’s his only perspective.

          7. NarcAngel says:

            I know that you acknowledged feeling suicidal at a young age, but has this persisted? When was the last time you felt this way?

          8. windstorm says:

            My suicidal feelings have never gone away. I have suspected I may be bipolar and they come on the downside of the cycle. Sometimes they just flash out of nowhere – particularly if I am upset and very stressed. They usually last from a few hours to a day and night. I just have to pray and try to distract myself until they go away. They do always go away just as suddenly as they came. I think there must be some biochemical aspect to them.

            Like panic attacks. I get them too and they also can just come out of nowhere when I am stressed.
            When I say stressed, I don’t mean with problems or work or wrangling a horde of toddler grandkids. It’s the stress of dealing with other people’s emotions. Particularly anger, frustration, hard-heartedness, but too strong or too much of any negative emotions can trigger them.

            I feel totally overwhelmed and incompetent- like I’m defective and just can’t cope. And I am overwhelmed by thinking that no one ever seems to feel my feelings or understand/empathize with my situation (furthering my feelings of being defective- that I’m not “normal” like others seem to be).

            There is also an element of feeling sorry for myself. I live my life so aware of everyone else’s emotions and tiptoeing around their feelings, but no one ever seems aware of how I feel inside.

            The last one was 2 days ago, but it was mild. Started right before bedtime and was gone in the morning. It was triggered when my little dog ate my SILs tacos when he stepped outside to get a package for me (he had left them on the sofa). It had been a very difficult day emotion-wise (all the kids and my daughter are sick with colds) and the anger and pent up frustrations of having the dog and me in his home as well as losing his dinner that I felt rolling off of him caught me off guard. It sounds silly now, but it’s that being unexpectedly overwhelmed that triggers it.

          9. MB says:

            WS, we are so alike! You stated all of that so well. Do you take medication? It does sound biochemical. I don’t mean to sound like a drug pusher, but I am a firm believer in medicating mental illness if it responds to treatment. Without medication, I know for a fact I wouldn’t be alive.

          10. windstorm says:

            I had to start on antidepressants when I began teaching. It was just too hard to have these episodes hit me at school. I have tons of allergies to meds and by my mid 50’s I couldn’t take any anymore because they all had bad reactions to other meds I take for chronic health problems. Made it really hard to teach the last few years, but not such a problem since I’ve retired. Now when I feel one begin, I can sit outside under the trees and listen to the wind and the birds. Nothing is more soothing for my mood and nerves than being out in nature!

          11. WhoCares says:


            I’m sorry that you suffer from similar emotional struggles that Windstorm describes…sometimes I do wonder too if I would benefit from medication…and did pursue that option (after the end of a different relationship in my past) but I couldn’t handle the side effects and went off them of my own accord.

          12. MB says:

            Thank you for the kind comments WC. I’ve been on medication since age 27. There was no relationship that caused it. I was always an anxious person. Worried all the time about NOTHING and scared of EVERYTHING. An extremely stressful work situation and panic attacks are what made me seek treatment. At one point, I thought I was better and no longer needed medication and stopped taking it. That was a mistake for me! As long as I have my faculties about me, I will take my meds without fail for the rest of my life. I have a true biochemical need for them. My life is chaos without meds. I have anxiety/depression/bipolar II.

          13. K says:

            I am sorry that you are struggling and I wish I could be there for you IRL. It is ok to feel sorry for yourself, you deserve it after all you have been through. It is very difficult when you are around hard-hearted people who are indifferent to you and the world in general.

            It is very difficult when people don’t empathize with you or understand your situation and it can be very overwhelming and depressing. You are neither incompetent nor defective, however, you are not normal; you are an empath.

            Might I suggest you stop tiptoeing around other people’s feelings and put yourself first. We are separated by the internet and a bunch of states but I understand you perfectly.

          14. windstorm says:

            Thank you. But I’m not really struggling. NarcAngel just asked if I still felt suicidal. I’m so used to it now that it’s not that bad of a struggle. Periodic suicidal thoughts are my normal. Not nearly as hard to deal with as crippling arthritis!

            Tiptoeing around others feelings IS putting me first. Remember I’m a contagion. I can’t avoid feeling all the feelings of others myself. Keeping the waters smooth benefits me as well as them. I do put myself first by spending a huge percentage of my time alone. Right now I’m in my room in my daughter’s basement with my hairy little miscreant, enjoying the cool, peaceful silence.

            Thanks for being my friend. Hope you’re having a good night. ❤️

          15. NarcAngel says:

            My dear friend Windstorm
            Why would you ever want to be normal? What does that even mean? You want to be one of the 3 out of 4 dentists who agree on Colgate? Boring. I’m not even sure I believe normal exists, but if it does, you should not aspire to it because you are wonderful just the way you are.
            One of the reasons that you are so well regarded here is because you are delightfully different. You don’t stand out because you are so unlike others, you stand out because you ARE like them but a 2.0 version. Despite what life has thrown at you, you have found a way that may seem unconventional by “normal” standards but works for you. Do you know how much strength that takes? Do you know how many “normals” can never say that and just keep on the hamster wheel? That would be jealous of your ability to have taken charge of your life and live the way you want when “normal” didn’t happen? I understand being overwhelmed by other peoples feelings (not to the extent that you do), so for instance I’m glad that you live alone and away from others so that you can regenerate until you feel you can immerse again. That IS coping. Most people would not have the strength or courage to do that. A lot of “normal” people may not “feel” your feelings because they are not all equipped with the heightened sense that you have, not because they view you as defective or don’t empathize, but because they just can’t imagine how hard you are able to love and your ability to be accepting of others and offer them wisdom and comfort despite all that you already deal with.
            No Windstorm, you are not normal, and you can thank your God for that. You are many wonderful things, among them Teacher and example, and not just in a bricks and mortar classroom. Make sure your wick (you) always stays above the melt pool (others) of your candle, so that you continue to burn bright and lead the way for all of us.

            Your SiL can always get something else to eat but how often does a dog get a chance at tacos? It’s Christmas for dogs too yes?


          16. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha! You always make me laugh! I thought you’d enjoy the mental image of my little dog scarfing down those tacos! And the little moron started at the top and only got down thru the cheese and lettuce!

            I have always taken pride in being different, but sometimes I do wonder if I take different too far! Lol!

            Your wonderful pep talk reminds me of my MIL. I know I have told how she shocked me by saying I was a very strong person when I’d always considered myself weak.

            And yes, we both agree that dogs deserve Christmas, too. Being here in Kansas around the little kids is always like Christmas for him. He’s a firm believer that any unguarded food is fair game. And there’s just no getting thru to him that it’s wrong to take any and all food away from the baby – especially if she’s holding it out to him. 😝

            Thank you so much for your response. I’m keeping it to reread for when I’m in need of a pep talk. You are a great friend! Being here on the blog and Interacting with you and everyone else is such a wonderful blessing for me.❤️

          17. WhoCares says:


            Those are lovely words spoken to Windstorm – and so true, especially this part:

            “Despite what life has thrown at you, you have found a way that may seem unconventional by “normal” standards but works for you. Do you know how much strength that takes?”

            So, so true. Fuck the hamster wheel.

          18. K says:

            NA is right. You don’t want to be normal or beige, you are better than that.

          19. windstorm says:

            Well now, I haven’t wanted to actually “be” normal since I was a child. I would like, however, to be able to successfully “impersonate” normal in public situations. But that’s probably long been a lost cause! Ha ha!

            My problem is being able to hold it all together emotionally when I get blindsided by unexpected negative emotions. But I have no desire to be beige. My life saying is, “Variety is the spice of life!” And I do my best to provide my share of variety!

            Oooh! You all know how I look for signs from God/the universe everywhere. As soon as I typed that last paragraph a huge crow flew up and landed on a fence by the car! (I’m stopped on my way home from Kansas). I count all crows as positive signs for whatever I last thought before I saw them, so that’s a very good portent for my trip and the holidays!!

            Everyone have a wonderful Christmas!! 🎄🎄🎄

          20. MB says:

            You too Windstorm! Merry Christmas and safe travels. I feel the same about hawks that you do crows.

          21. windstorm says:

            Ooooh! I always count hawks as I drive across Kansas and Missouri. Sometimes I see bald eagles, too. Today i saw 81 hawks along the roadside before it got dark. They are fascinating birds! Missouri is full of them! They must have the most tremendous mouse population out in all these flat fields to support so many hawks! I never thought if them as omens, but they sure do brighten my drive!

          22. K says:

            You are welcome WS
            I will always be your friend. Last night I took the kids shopping and we had a good time. They are so funny when they are together.

            You will never be able to impersonate “normal” in real life; I have tried too and it doesn’t work. So we have no choice but to embrace our true colors.

            I read that crows are harbingers from the spiritual realm. They are beautiful birds and, when I see them, I always think of the collective noun: a murder of crows.

            Have a wonderful Christmas!

          23. windstorm says:

            Thanks. You will always be my friend as well!

            Yes, crows are supposed to be omens. The way I reason it, all omens must be a good thing, since omens come from God, and God controls everything. If God is sending me an omen, it means that the creative force of the universe is focused in on my life. Even if I’m destined to die in a fiery car crash around the next bend in the road – God is right there with me. It must be good if God is right there focused on my life!

            Of course no matter who I have explained this interpretation of omens to over the years – no one – no one has agreed with my reasoning. This doesn’t deter me, though. I’m still always excited to see any “sign.”

            Crows are not only beautiful, they are very smart, too, and have a sense of humor.

          24. WhoCares says:

            Windstorm – I hope you have a lovely, peaceful Christmas <3

          25. windstorm says:

            You, too, WhoCares! ❤️

          26. WhoCares says:


            I was reading your response to NA (now that I’m back) and even though I can’t identify with suicidal feelings; I certainly can commiserate with all the other feelings you associate with that experience…

            Stress, panic attacks (at least the sensation that I’m about to hyperventilate but not full blown attacks).

            And this especially: “I feel totally overwhelmed and incompetent – like I’m defective…” Also, the feeling sorry for myself.
            Personally I don’t experience these in response to negative emotions but to what I think people’s expectations of me are…usually I can stave off feeling overwhelmed by the pull of these expectations but it’s very hard at this time of the year…and it’s not just due to “commercialization” of the season…but cultural expectations during this season…like I’m useless and can never make anyone happy…

            I feel the the subtle sensation of my body wanting to go into overdrive (like I’m going to begin to hyperventilate etc.) but I spent so much of my entanglement feeling severely stressed that it literally makes me feel bodily ill to give into the stress – I have to shut off all emotions to stop it…but (while it is harder as of late) I usually can put a stop to the panicky sensations.

          27. windstorm says:

            I’m sorry you have to go thru this stress and panic also. It seems similar, but also different.

            “I don’t experience these in response to negative emotions but to what I think people’s expectations of me are…usually I can stave off feeling overwhelmed by the pull of these expectations”

            I find this intriguing. Are you saying that people’s expectations of you keep you from feeling overwhelmed? For me, peoples expectations are just annoying. Especially if they seem to want to take, take, take and never give. My feelings of being useless are from being overwhelmed by situations. I don’t believe I can make someone else happy, except maybe momentarily. Happiness comes from within each of us and only we can create it in ourselves.

            Thank you for sharing your experience. I know so many of us deal with panic attacks and depression and feeling defective. It probably all ties back to all our years with narcissists.

          28. WhoCares says:


            “Are you saying that people’s expectations of you keep you from feeling overwhelmed? For me, peoples expectations are just annoying. Especially if they seem to want to take, take, take and never give. My feelings of being useless are from being overwhelmed by situations. I don’t believe I can make someone else happy…”

            It is “expectation” (internal, external…imagined – lol – all of the above!) that I find overwhelming. And I agree with you; normally I can just fight off these feelings and meet my own expectations…while picking and choosing what expectations of *others* I will attempt to meet and usually I don’t give a rat’s ass about making other people happy – certainly not post-entanglement. But this time of year is challenging in so many ways…

            Recently, I was up to my eyeballs with large creative project that I had committed to and which kept me very focused and simply unable to meet any other expectations. Now that it’s finished and I can deal with just ‘getting ready for Christmas’ I struggle with all the expectations (and more) associated with that…(as a result I really understand why people keep “busy” and fill up their lives to keep from feeling certain things and avoid the pain of dealing with reality.)

            I think my struggle this year is partly due to having spent last year’s Christmas in a women’s shelter (it was the only safe place for me at that time – physically and emotionally). I’ve been able to begin integrating back into a “normal” way of living but it comes with all the expected influences and expectations – especially when you start socializing, etc….

            Here is simplified, isolated example…

            While I was shopping for supplies for the aforementioned creative project – not on my budget, mind you – I decided to kill two birds with one stone and also look for a sweater for my son’s approaching ‘Ugly Christmas Sweater’ day at school (expectations of school and child: to fit in, celebrate the season and have fun.) Then later, I would personalize the sweater so that his was unique – despite – being store bought. (My own personal expectation to de-commercial his Christmas experience and indulge my love of handmade touches.)

            Turns out, ugly Christmas sweaters are already picked over – no sweater to be found…solution: substitute with ugly Christmas *sweatshirt* – personalization still to occur, when time allows.

            Said large project done…panic; cannot locate ugly Christmas sweatshirt admidst the creative blitz and aftermath of leftover supplies…Solution: use gift certificate sent by friend in mail and go to store to find another ugly Christmas sweater – no luck.
            Compromise: Christmas plaid button-down shirt (will hand sew tiny Christmas stuffies from felt to put in pockets to add personalized touch).

            Problem: cannot find sewing kit in the creative aftermath; no personalization…

            Possible redemption: located first ugly Christmas sweatshirt while searching for sewing kit! Therefore offer two options (despite lack of handmade touches) to at least make child happy.

            (All this over an UGLY CHRISTMAS SWEATER – where’s NarcAngel to crack a joke…because objectively I know how ridiculous this is…)

            Where does this come from?? Cultural expectations. Ugly Sweaters are a *NEW* thing – like Christmas wasn’t stressful enough…and schools are embracing this…which filters down to the children and *their* expectations…and ugly Christmas sweaters are supposed to be light-hearted and *FUN*!…right?

            Sorry. Sweater rant over.

            But, seriously – if you’re Christmas shopping in the local mall or big box stores…and you see a lost soul who looks a little pale – and a lot scatterbrained – due to stressing over ugly Christmas sweaters selections – tell her she doesn’t need to. Or, maybe gently guide her to a chair and tell her to sit down…take a load off…Or better yet; take her for tea or coffee at a nice coffee shop or tea house – even if it’s only a Starbucks, because:

            1. She might not be able to afford to treat herself to one of those fancy-assed seasonal coffees after spending funds on two choices to please her child for Ugly Christmas sweater day…

            2. She is not very good at doing *self-care* and she could use a fireside sit-down (even if a fake fireplace)…or a nice take-out coffee and drive to admire local Christmas light displays…

            3. And she really needs to be reminded – by an external source –
            how little ugly Christmas sweaters mean in the grand scheme of things…

          29. windstorm says:

            I feel your ugly sweater pain. My kids would have waited till the night before to tell me about it and I’d have been hot gluing stuff on their sweaters!

            I do love ugly sweaters, though. I’ve sat up all night making my own for school, including real Christmas lights that light up and trimmed with Christmas tree tinsel. You know, something like Cindy Lou’s mother would wear in Whoville in The Grinch.

            I do really feel for the women who feel trapped into totally overworking themselves for Christmas. I’m far too lazy to suffer from that myself, but I see it ruining the joy they should be feeling for the holiday. Hopefully the rest of the holiday will be stress free enough for you to enjoy and feel peace.

          30. WhoCares says:


            “I’ve sat up all night making my own for school, including real Christmas lights that light up and trimmed with Christmas tree tinsel. You know, something like Cindy Lou’s mother would wear in Whoville in The Grinch.”

            See – this would be me too! Given the time and focus to do it; I would so make an entire ugly sweater from scratch for someone if I could, but I just couldn’t swing it this year because of other commitments.

            “I do really feel for the women who feel trapped into totally overworking themselves for Christmas. I’m far too lazy to suffer from that myself, but I see it ruining the joy they should be feeling for the holiday.”

            I agree with you and I’m not one of those women – but I do love certain things about this season and there are things that I want my son to have the experience of too…I like the simple things about it: music, food, outdoor winter activities, making handmade stuff together…it’s difficult when the school system decides that ugly sweater day is a *thing* and I listen to the other mom’s stressing over decorating their child’s sweater..wrapping gifts…how they are going to manage xmas dinner with all the family/social commitments…and inside I’m saying to myself: I’m so glad that I’m not that person anymore…because I don’t have to cater to other’s peoples expectations – not if I don’t want to. I’ve learned at least that much coming out of my entanglements. But I DID get this horrible sinking feeling inside when one of the mother’s was describing all the addition’s she was making to her daughter’s sweater – because I so wanted to be able to do that for my son as well and knew I likely wouldn’t be able to. (I was just happy to even have “Ugly Sweater Day” on my radar – because I could have easily forgot and missed it entirely!)

            But I do care about my son’s expectations and want him to have nice memories of Christmas – but not those based on whose ugly sweater was the best or who received the best/most Christmas gifts etc…it’s a fine line to walk during this time of the year.

            I’m glad you dance to your tune Windstorm and aren’t swayed by these things – for the sake of my son, I embrace some of them – but ultimately I only want him to remember the simple, joyful things about Christmas…

            Incidentally, even though I’m not religious, nor do I like sappy music – but I have a soft spot for Christmas carols…I’m not even sure why…it’s some sort of ever-presence but a good form. While some Christmas carols make me sad, others make me nostalgic for when life felt less complicated, more magical and small joys were more prevalent…I had Christmas albums as a child and I just have to envision the images on the LP covers and I get an internal sense of excitement, anticipation and warmth. I wish I still had them; my mother gave them away years ago – however, I recently found one of them online (thank-you internet!) on Youtube (it’s an old Disney collection of Christmas carols) and can now play them anytime I want…

            Anyway, sorry to go on about sappy songs and Christmas sweaters – but this has helped me process some stuff…I know this a time of year full of mixed feelings for many but I hope everyone has a good Christmas and finds a sense of peace in the small joys and memories.

          31. 69Revolver says:

            Windstorm, please use this as a resource when the thoughts become too much to bear. We care about you.
            800-273-TALK (Natl Suicide Lifeline)
            838255: crisis text line

            You do not have to suffer with these thoughts. And I don’t want you to have to.

          32. windstorm says:

            Thank you for your concern. I do have a counselor I can go to if things get too depressing. And I have a good friend and my daughter who will text me cheery things when I request it. Knowing someone cares is very important.

            Don’t worry about me. I’ve been dealing with this for nearly 50 years. I’ll get by. ❤️

          33. WhoCares says:

            Windstorm – I’m glad you have support.

          34. WhoCares says:


            I’ve been thinking about panic attacks…I’ve only ever had two full blown ones and I managed to think my way through them. I don’t know if this is helpful to you but I’ll share anyway…

            I’ve always been fascinated with how an individual’s particular fears, phobias and fetishes have formed and what happens in the brain to cause this. I recall, very clearly, when in a university abnormal pyschology lecture, the prof made us go through steps to induce the physical sensations of a panic attack. And then he explained that once a fear causes those symptoms eventually, longterm, it is not so much the source of a particular fear but the anticipation of feeling those horrible physical sensations that exacerbates and actually brings on the attack. Once I understood this, and intellectualized that it’s just fear of the physical sensations themselves (and not the fear of the thing itself) I was able to slowly bypass or reduce the mounting fear.

            I was never claustrophobic in my life before – but as an adult I’ve had to talk myself out of panic attacks twice. Once when I inside an MRI machine and, another time, when I was riding in the backseat of a ’32 Ford.

          35. WhoCares says:


            “I have fought being suicidal since I was 12. I intimately understand the pain and feelings of hopelessness when you feel suicide is your best choice.”

            I read the recent dialogue elsewhere
            when you and MB (perhaps others) were discussing suicide – I wanted to join in with others who were saying comforting, supporting things because I do agree with those that said you are both valued here and I can imagine how that reflects on how valued you are by people in your personal lives. But I kept silent because I feel as though if I can’t say something constructive I’d rather not contribute to the discussion…my first inclination would be to say to someone: ” No, don’t say that. You don’t mean that. It’s not all that bad I’m sure…” But I know it’s not healthy, nor helpful, to deny someone their feelings – I just have a really hard time identifying with feelings of suicide.

            I found it hard to read about your very detailed plans on the subject. It’s not that I don’t understand deep pain – I certainly had my moments during devaluation when I thought and said things that I never imagined I’d contemplate…but I had to compartmentalize. I had no choice but to put the pain aside and to *not* fall apart when things were going to hell in a handbasket…I think because of that I got really, really good at compartmentalization.
            I don’t think that skill stills always serves me well because sometimes I can be very cold as a result, but it comes so naturally now…

            As others have expressed, I’m really glad you are here Windstorm and very sharing of yourself and your experiences. I think you have much to impart to others and thus add a unique value to this place.

          36. WhoCares says:

            I was typing this and just saw further discussion between you and NA – but I’ll be back to read it; have to run out the door…

          37. windstorm says:

            I understand you’re having a hard time understanding feelings of suicide. I imagine most people are that way. Most people seem to love life and fear death. I’ve never been that way. I’ve always had a hard time identifying with the desire to prolong life.

            I spent much of my childhood wishing I’d never been born. The idea of any afterlife horrified me. The descriptions of heaven where you lived forever in a city with all your family members was just another version of hell to me. It still disturbs me to think that might be a possibility. No telling how many months of my life I’ve spent wondering why God made me be born the way I am. I finally just came to terms with the idea that he must have had a reason and I was stuck here until I fulfilled whatever purpose my life is supposed to serve.

            My life is no longer horrible. It is actually very good and blessed in many ways. I feel much happiness and often. But I have no attachment to life. No desire to prolong it. No fear to lose it.

            Thank you for your kind words. I do love being here on the blog and sharing my experiences.

          38. WhoCares says:


            I don’t know how I missed this particular reply, just saw it now.

            “I spent much of my childhood wishing I’d never been born. The idea of any afterlife horrified me. The descriptions of heaven where you lived forever in a city with all your family members was just another version of hell to me. It still disturbs me to think that might be a possibility.”

            I’m sorry Windstorm, that’s no wish a child should be focused on…
            And I have to agree with your view of such an afterlife! Sounds like hell to me as well…

            On the subject of childhood, heaven and the afterlife…As a child, I recall my best friend and her very religious mother fearing for my soul because I was never baptized. They said that if you’re not baptized you can’t go to heaven…and when I died I would get stuck in ‘limbo’ (or is is purgatory?) forever. I remember questioning how God could judge me not worthy of heaven for something beyond my control as a baby? That somehow I was ‘bad’ or not a whole person…How could I be held accountable for something I didn’t do or cause? (I think this is partly why I never could buy into organized religion.)

            I’m glad your life is no longer horrible, but blessed now – and you’ve come to terms with God…

            Also, thank you for sharing your experiences and indulging my questions – it means a lot.

          39. windstorm says:

            No problem. I’ve spent so much of my life alone wondering if anyone else was like me, that I know how beneficial hearing other people share can be. We are all much more alike than we are different and it does us good to be reminded of it. Alone we may stumble, but together we support each other. ❤️

      4. k says:

        One of my narcissists was found dead in his Man Cave/Bolt Hole on Sunday morning (heroin overdose) and his brother (heroin addict) had a GoFundMe page up and running that same day.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          What’s he funding, rehab?

          1. K says:

            Ha ha ha…

        2. WhoCares says:

          Omg, K – honestly…I don’t really even know what to say to that except: Oh. My. God. They’re unbelievable, aren’t they!?!?

          Or to be more accurate it is unbelievable the way they can pull the wool over the eyes of others when illiciting sympathy for these things…but I guess they have too…he just lost a major source of fuel and so must harvest it elsewhere…

          1. K says:

            Fuel and residual benefits, because his brother and his five nieces and nephews were all getting disability checks and there is a sign-up sheet for meals and carpool duty. I am staying far, far away!

          2. WhoCares says:

            K – yep, stay far, FAR away from all that crazy…

      5. Caroline R says:

        Ha ha!
        Maybe his dealer’s bling

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