The Saviour Empath


There are four schools of empath (Co-Dependent, Standard, Super and Contagion). There are many cadres of empath which layer on to those schools. These cadres include the Carrier, the Magnet and the Geyser, about which I have written previously. A further cadre is that of the Saviour Empath.

The Saviour Empath’s mission is to heal and to save, to ensure that good prevails. They are the archetypal believer in the idea that there is some good in everybody. With regard to our kind, the Saviour Empath does not consider that we are intrinsically ‘evil’ or ‘bad’. They prefer to adopt the view that there is good locked away inside of us and that it just has to be discovered, unlocked and set free. This notion of course and the desire to address this apparent goodness is a very strong binder which enables us to keep a hold on the Saviour Empath. Indeed, there are those of our kind who will play on this concept and this is addressed below.

The Saviour Empath feels an overriding need to save the world. They wish to right the wrongs, heal the sick, tend to the injured and ensure that injustices are overturned. It is this desire which is at the very heart of the Saviour Empath. The Saviour Empath is often someone who subscribes to a belief system (whether it is organised religion, karma, paganism or similar) although the absence of such a belief does not discount the person as being a Saviour Empath, but a reliance on a belief system is a hallmark of the Saviour Empath.  How does this manifest with regard to each school of empath?

Standard Empath  – the Saviour Standard Empath regards it as imperative that he or she comes to the aid of people. They will donate to charity, help out voluntary organisations and are giving of their time. With regard to the narcissist, this manifests as adopting a sympathetic and compassionate approach to the unusual behaviours (when the empath is not aware they are ensnared by a narcissist) of the narcissist. Accordingly, they regard the narcissist as a ‘good’ person (supported by the narcissist’s illusory behaviour during the golden period) and therefore when devaluation occurs they will ascribe the behaviour to arising from a third party event rather than seeing it as the behaviour of the narcissist at work. The Standard Empath wants to assist the narcissist and does so by trying to understand and offer solutions linked to the aberrant behaviour that is being witnessed. The Saviour Standard Empath whilst wanting to save the narcissist from whatever terrible third party event or influence that is causing the behaviour (for example, is the narcissist struggling at work, is he stressed, has he got problems with money or drink?). The Saviour Standard Empath will put themselves in the firing line when trying to assist, but they do not tend to regard the problem as much to do with them but rather another factor which they want to tackle and overcome.

Super Empath – the Saviour Super Empath is akin to a caped crusader who fires into action whenever he or she witnesses injustice. They cannot help but interfere when really it is not their business (this is the narcissistic trait of selfishness coming to the fore momentarily). The Saviour Super Empath will not turn a blind eye to someone in trouble, they will help the injured person and then look to tackle the perpetrator (or at least bring them to account through formal channels). Thus is the Saviour Super Empath sees someone being attacked, they will help the victim, look to fight off the attacker and/or chase them down, either themselves or enlisting help. They cannot let any kind of injustice go unaddressed. The Saviour Super Empath has a very strong moral compass and therefore when they see something that is wrong, it very much boils their piss so they spring into action. Whilst they always look to help people, what really matters to the Saviour Super Empath is bringing people to account for their actions. If they see a person cutting into a queue (line) they will upbraid the offender. If they witness a person stealing, they will look to stop them or report them. The Saviour Super Empath is a firm believer in the need for good to prevail, whether this is in a situation or in a person. With regard to the narcissist that a Saviour Super Empath is embroiled with, the Saviour Super Empath knows that this person has a kernel of goodness and if they only triedto embrace it, let it shine etc then such a difference will appear. They believe the narcissist has it inside of them to make adjustments, amend their behaviour and harness the intrinsic goodness inside of them. The Saviour Super Empath knows that they are a force for good and they believe that the narcissist can do the same. The Saviour Super Empath recognises that they themselves are good people but that they have some degree of edge to them (their narcissistic traits appearing from time to time) and they often regard the narcissist in the same light – a person who has edge but is intrinsically good – and this fools the Saviour Super Empath in to wanting to assist and save the narcissist.

The Co-Dependent – the Co-Dependent who is of the Saviour Cadre finds the world to be a terrible place and wishes to administer succour to the downtrodden, to assist the hurt, and to heal the wounds of the injured. They are less concerned about bringing the offender to justice and more about attending to the people who are left cowering and broken in the wake of oppression and violence. The Saviour Co-Dependent is a person who is extremely caring and compassionate – the type of person who would join Medicins Sans Frontieres and arriving at the scene of a humanitarian disaster would work themselves into the ground to try and ease the suffering of each and every person even though it is an impossible task. They are often overwhelmed by the cruelty of the world and despair at its evil ways, but this will not stop them from trying to save each and every person who is in need of help. This applies to the way they engage with the narcissist. The Saviour Co-Dependent (“SCD”) knows and is absolutely convinced that the narcissist is at heart a good person and with the right application of guidance, support, compassion and tolerance the narcissist will change, will improve and let that goodness shine. The SCD will not give up on the narcissist, even to personal cost to themselves. They know that redemption is just around the corner, that improvement is on the horizon and they will, with a zeal bordering on delusion, grasp at any sign of improvement or alteration in the narcissist’s behaviour as evidence that their faith has not proven incorrect.

The SCD will flagellate themselves in the pursuit of trying to help and heal the narcissist, their emotional thinking and innate desire to do good, plus their own need to achieve validation through their giving of themselves means he or she will continue to try to achieve the impossible. They will not wish to give up, they will see glimmers of hope, slivers of optimism and fragments of possibility in order to achieve their aim of saving the narcissist.

The Contagion – the Saviour Contagion Empath (“SCE”) will manifest their desire to assist as a consequence of the severe impact felt by them of the negative energy, suffering and misery that accompanies the human condition. The desire to save and resolve, to eradicate the diseased and bring about the healing is different to that of the other schools of empath. The SCE needs to achieve this in order to secure balance, which is their primary aim. By redressing the bad, through their saving good works then balance is restored and the polluting impact upon them of the negative energy which they feel – the manifestation of the woe, misery and hurt that others feel – is removed and no longer (albeit temporarily) ceases to be a burden upon them. With regard to the narcissist, the removal of the dark energy surrounding and flowing from the narcissist’s behaviours has a considerable impact on the finely-tuned SCE. In order to alleviate their own pain, in order to prevent themselves from being consumed by the darkness which they acutely feel, the SCE seeks to save the narcissist from their dark self. They similarly wish to achieve balance with their own personal narcissist or narcissists.

How are these various schools of Saviour Empath regarded by our brethren? As you might expect, the SE is naturally desired by narcissists for their empathic traits, class and special traits too. Accordingly, no narcissist will ever shy away from the ensnaring of the SE. There are certain schools and cadres of narcissist however that desire the SE in particular.

Victim Narcissists desire the Saviour Empath owing to their need to be mothered, looked after and saved from their various ailments (real or imagined). The SE’s desire to bring about healing and resolution is savoured by this cadre of narcissist. Lesser Narcissists will not turn away a Saviour Empath, but they are not favoured (unless the Lesser is of the Victim Cadre) since the Lesser has no truck with the idea of being healed or saved. From what? Will be the mocking response as their  complete lack of self-awareness means that they have no comprehension or need to be saved in that manner.

Mid Range Narcissists treasure Saviour Empaths because of the fact that some Mid Range Narcissists like to play the ‘troubled soul’ or ‘personal demons’ approach. Whilst unaware of what they are, their awareness that there is something not quite right, coupled with their passive behaviours and need for attention, means that the Mid Range Narcissist truly sees the Saviour Empath as the one who will save him from himself, even though this is just part of the manipulation to keep the Saviour Empath hooked. The Mid Range will revel in becoming the pet project for the Saviour Empath and will instinctively play along by tossing a bone of apparent awareness or improvement in order to maintain the hoped for glorious redemption that the Saviour Empath craves.

The Greater Narcissist is likely to prefer other cadres but again is not going to kick the Saviour Empath out of bed for eating crisps. The Greater may find tormenting the Saviour Empath a delightful machination by increasing the visibility of their dark side so that the Saviour Empath sees a challenge which has to be surmounted. Of course, the Saviour Empath is blind to the fact that the Greater cannot be healed or saved, but that will not stop the Saviour Empath from trying time and time again.

77 thoughts on “The Saviour Empath

  1. Starscape says:

    Lord have mercy

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Well since you asked so nicely…

      1. Starscape says:

        Would you expect any less??

      2. Starscape says:

        Why would the devil want to “help” the weaker of the species?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Why the devil not?

        2. Contagion says:


          Not sure what your definition of weaker species is, from my perspective neither side is weaker then the other just different perspectives.
          What weakens either side is lack of knowledge and/or awareness.

      3. Starscape says:

        Must be fuel of some sort..?? No one does something for nothing.

      4. Starscape says:

        Possibly like the movie “Constantine”… guy who has done bad things, not looking to change himself necessarily but can see the bigger picture, and just wants to use his powers for good instead.??

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I don’t smoke 20 a day though! Great film, though.

      5. Starscape says:

        I meant from the narc perspective…

  2. mommypino says:

    I have a lot of the Savior Empath traits but not all of them.

    1. Before I learned about narcissism and found this blog, I believed that there is some good in everybody. This is why the Mid-rangers in my life was able to take advantage of me. I believed that people are inherently good and something (an excuse) was makig them behave badly. I thought that being good to them and turning the other cheek (which I wasn’t always able to do because I can have a temper sometimes) will eventually make them overcome the issues hindering them from seeing me as a good person as well.

    2. I’m subscribed to a belief system (Christianity).

    3. I do have an edge in me from being raised by a Lesser and growing up in the slum area. It is not something that is obvious. It stays dormant until something happens that causes it to come out then it shocks people who witnesses it because they thought that I am innocent and pure. For example, when I was in my early twenties, I was in a jeepney (a public transportation vehicle in the Phils.) and I noticed that the guy sitting by me has been moving his arm a lot that was causing my purse to move. Then it dawned on me that he is slashing my purse to steal what was jnside of it. I confronted him in a loud manner that he is slashing my purse. Two other guys sitting accross me who was with him (they were a gang of three) was shocked, stood up and got out of the jeep really fast to run away. The guy sitting by me was going to get out as well but I caught his arm and held it really tight. I wanted him to connect with me human to human. I told him, “you slashed my purse!” I also looked at all of the passengers and the driver and told tntem all while holding the arm of the slasher that he is a slasher. I was waiting for them to help me contain him and take him to the police but they were all shocked and staring at me not doingg anything. I realized I wasn’t going to get help so I just let him go. Then when he left the passengers and the driver told me that I was foolish because what if he stabbed me with his knofe or slashed my face so I would let him go. I didn’t care, I was disappointed in them. I thought maybe I was in the wrong field, I probably should have been a cop and not an accountant.

    The other incident was when I was fifteen years old. This was the only time in my life that I had zero empathy. Zero mercy for this person. My mom and I moved in to this house inside a compound. It’s a slum area in Manila which looks like the houses in the movie Bourne Legacy so as you can imagine there was not a lot of privacy. Our small apartment was next door to the owner’s brother. The maid of the owner’s brother warned me to be careful of him because he’s a pervert and she alluded that she has been molested by him but she was really vague about it and wouldn’t answer me directly. After a few months my matrinarc eventually got mad at him and was trying to frame him up for invading our apartment and stealing from us. It never happened and my mom’s story was so stupid that I knew it will never progress in the courts. I didn’t want any part of it even though she asks me to help her. I never help her when she tries to harm innocent people. Well one time I have decides to add a mirror in the shower so that I can see myself in the mirror while showering (I’m narcissistic, I love looking at myself in the mirrors). It’s not about anything sexually preverse, it’s just plain loving to look at myself in the mirrors any chance that I can get. Then as I was shampooing I saw in the mirror the owner’s brother’s head watching me shower in the little window behind me. The window was for ventilation, we didn’t have exhaust fans in the slum area. I yelled an expletive to him and he immediately went away. I wrapped myself in a towel and knocked on their door to tell his wife but his wife didn’t care. So out of anger I got a kitchen knife and stabbed their screen door many times and I enjoyed seeing the horror in his wife’s face. He closed their door. I then took all of their flip flops from their outside door mat and threw them to the neighbor’s property. Then I helped my mom frame him up for stealing from us. I fixed her story and we were winning that the sister had to pay us to drop the case. She even brought a cake to us as she begged for us to take the money and drop the case against her brother. My mom felt so powerful that day. I didn’t eat the cake or relished the victory. I just wanted to teach him a lesson.

    But I’m not a confrontational person. I do not like humiliating anyone. If it’s just someone cuttinn the line, I would politely inform them that there were people ahead of them. I choose my battles.

    1. nunya biz says:

      My favorite part is where you threw the flip flops 🙂
      Love it.

      I have a really scary feeling I get when somebody pisses me off and it happens all the time. I can be very evil with my words and cut people. To get to that point it’s always something where it’s a blatant narcissistic manipulation.
      But I also get a feeling of blackness inside me, like my body darkens when certain small manipulations are thrown at me. Even standing at a cashier or something, if somebody says something passive aggressive or subtly twisted at me my body immediately feels dark and most of the time I don’t say anything but if they knew what I was thinking they would shut up.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Nunya Biz
        Do you think that scary feeling is your narcissistic traits coming to the fore? Scary because you equate using them with being mean rather than as a natural defence? That you think you will lose control? Just curious.

      2. mommypino says:

        Thank you NunyaBiz! That was my favorite thing that I did too. I loved listening at how mad they were that they couldn’t find their flip flops after they finally came out of their door. I was fifteen with raging hormones and anger against the world, he sure picked the wrong victim.

        I wonder if that is part of you being a contagion empath too. If you are feeling the malice or negativity of the person manipulating or doing a passive aggressive attack on you. With me I am usually delayed which also contributes to being a doormat. My default mood is the world is a happy place, hang loose etc. So when somebody does a passive aggressive or underhanded attack on me, I usually get taken aback a little bit, then denial mode that I was attacked, then I say or do something to make things less stressful like saying an excuse for the underhanded remark directed to me to make the attacker feel comfortable. Then as I think about it I feel unsure if the person was really malicious towards me or not. That’s why I’m not a contagion because I don’t feel energies that much. I was also very sheltered by my mom and wasn’t allowed to socialize very much so I didn’t develop a lot of skills with reading malice from people or even just socializing in general. But I am ultra sensitive with facial expressions so that is why I get confused so much. I get some signals of malice from the face but the underhanded attack was subtle and delivered in English which is just a second language to me so I wasn’t sure if I was just reading too much into it or if it was really innocent. With you, because you feel energies, there’s probably not a lot of guessing game and you know it almost instantaneously. Just my hypothesis.

      3. nunya biz says:

        Yes, NA, that is what I think it is. I go back and forth on how I feel about it. Sometimes in the moment I’m fine and I just either let it out in some cutting way or I become logical if I can and shut it off because I can see I’m just going to fuel something. Other times I feel guilty or out of control.

      4. nunya biz says:

        Thank you MP. Your stories were awesome : )

        I can be delayed sometimes, but often I do feel like it’s a contagious thing I’m picking up immediately.

        But you describe things really well, I have a similar thing you are talking about. My default mode is happy and relaxed most of the time (barring hormones, random aggressive moods, etc…). Most often when I feel an attack like what you are saying I get the dark feeling. But I have learned I don’t like that and I want to have patience with people or I could be wrong and I want it to be less stressful, so sometimes (not always) when they sense my energy shift, they shift theirs to less negative. And then I’ll think, there we got that sorted! No problem.
        I was really thinking about one of my recent entanglements in that way. The person was doing controlling negative things toward me early on so I was about to cut the relationship because the pressure feeling was at that point. They got nervous I would do it and then changed their behavior. I felt like I should be forgiving about that, so I shifted back to default mode of easy going, understanding and somewhat permissive. I feel I definitely did some doormat behaviors. I ended up in a relationship where I was having a low level negative feeling for an extended time because of all that. And the boundaries get pressed on intermittently because the other person doesn’t really have the true ability to not objectify, etc… So even with the energy thing I still get in trouble in a certain way because I think the energy can be shifted (not fully faked, just shifted) and like others I want to do the “good” thing.

        It’s funny how parental interactions, especially a mother I think but both, can shape our confusions and misinterpretations of signals from others and from our own mind and body.

        One thing I have done a lot though is separating myself from different types of situations because the energy can flip me out a bit, even though I mostly consider myself reasonable and easy going. I’m always relieved when I can get into dynamics that don’t mess me up too much (why this blog site is helpful because most of the intentions are easier to handle).

      5. mommypino says:

        Thank you Nunya. I just saw this response today. Lol yes my mood is greatly affected by hormones, especially a few days before my period. I’ve read that women’s brains change about five days before their periods. Whenever I get mad at my husband I would get my period a few days after I got mad so he blames it on my period.

        I’m glad that you are getting more in tuned with yourself in feeling the negative vibes. Sometimes we need to trust our gut feelings but because we are so empathic we override the intuition that we have and give people a chance. Also unfortunately, narcs are so talented at pressing on our boundaries. I think empaths have a tendency to allow their boundaries to to be crossed so much because of our emotional thinking and empathic traits. That’s why I like when HG said in another thread to focus on our own walls and not Trump’s. So very true. I’m staying away from political discussions here from now on unless it has something to do with narcissism.

        I love what you said about separating yourself from the situation. It really does help a lot when we detach and look at things feom an objective standpoint. I am more able to do that with my experiences with my narc as I learn more about them from reading here.

        So nice to read comments from you. I always enjoy them. Take care! 💕

        1. nunya biz says:

          Ha, oh, I did not catch your political discussion. I was avoiding that anyway because my opinions about it are very emotional. I’ve been trying to avoid things that get my ET up. I am ridiculous.

          I’ve not had negative interactions since I’ve gotten into reading here because I’m putting effort into the gut feeling and boundary thing. I still get annoyed, unfortunately, but much better at disengaging.
          Lol, I think my brain changes every five minutes, but yes definitely before my period. I always think that it makes me more sensitive and intuitive in some way so then I’m actually still correct or whatever but sometimes with some insane heightened reaction. So when someone blames something on my period it’s half right and half wrong. It might exaggerate my reaction but that doesn’t negate the source of the issue. Blech I hate that.
          Xo, MP, you are always great.

      6. mommypino says:

        Thank you NunyaBiz, so true about the period hormones only heightening the reaction but the reason for the reaction is still valid.

        Glad you didn’t see my political discussion. I got a little emotional on some parts and I’m now embarrassed. Oh well, I’m not the first person who got emotional on this blog anyway.

        It’s always nice to hear from you. You’re awesome!!! 💕

        1. NarcAngel says:

          No need to be embarassed. You certainly have lots of company on posting emotionally and we recognize it. We’re empaths and we get passionate – it’s what we do lol.

      7. nunya biz says:

        Oh god, MP, I get embarrassed for typing the word “hello” sometimes thinking I said too much. If anything seeing other people speak their minds reminds me I’m human and allowed to have feelings and say things, because I get mildly irritated at people and then question myself. I try to remind myself I have just as much right to be stupid as anyone. And I see a lot of little back and forths on here and everyone overall seems to handle it well. I’m sure your opinion is reasonable. Without emotion we’d probably have no charm anyway. : D
        Btw, this is the only place online I’m willing to participate for the most part.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          Nunya Biz
          Let it rip. I step in it all the time. And? World keeps turning.

          1. windstorm says:

            “I step in it all the time.”

            Ha, ha! Reminds me of when I was young and had to run across the fields barefoot to round up cattle for my mother. I stepped in it all the time, too. Haven’t thought of that in 40 years!

          2. HG Tudor says:

            What a shitty job, WS.

          3. windstorm says:

            Yes, shitty and disgusting, especially barefoot. But feet are easier to clean than shoes. There is nothing about working cattle that I have missed!

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Now that has to mean you have collected bull semen!

          5. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha! No. This was in the 70’s. The trend then was importing semen from Europe of “exotic” European breeds and “breeding in” your herd. Mama developed a herd of purebred, pure-polled (hornless) Simmental cattle that way.

            So we were injecting bull semen, not collecting. Though not me, of course. I was considered too incompetent to handle something so important and expensive. Lol!

          6. HG Tudor says:

            What a load of bull! I bet you were running around with a turkey baster weren’t you? Change your handle to The Inseminator forthwith!

          7. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha, HG! Are you forgetting Mama was a narcissist? I was prevented from doing any important jobs due to my perceived incompetence. She didn’t even trust the Pretzel with the turkey baster! Imported semen was difficult to get, highly perishable and expensive. It was the veterinarian who was The Inseminator. That way if it didn’t take, she had someone outside the family to blame!

          8. HG Tudor says:

            You stop deflecting, The Inseminator, I decree this to be your new name!

          9. windstorm says:

            Lol HG!

            Ok, I will admit to being The Inseminator – of empathy and esoteric knowledge!

          10. HG Tudor says:

            …and bull semen!

          11. windstorm says:

            You’re like a dog with a bone this morning, aren’t you? Glad you’re in such a good mood!

          12. HG Tudor says:

            We are staying bovine not canine, stop mooooving the goal posts.

          13. windstorm says:

            Ha, ha! Good one, HG!

          14. MB says:

            I’m dying 😂. The funniest thing about this exchange is that WS said there was nothing about working cattle that she missed. Which of course meant, she didn’t miss working with the cattle. But then HG being clever as ever makes it into a thing about having done everything with the cattle! I’m amused.

      8. nunya biz says:

        Oh, and something else I was just thinking on that topic… of course people trust people better when they share their honest opinions (balanced with listening, being reasonable, etc..). It’s a big deal for me. And of course relates to this blog as a whole. I really hate it when people overly hide themselves and narcissists do it to be manipulative. Especially receiving far more information than they give. It is a generosity to relate parts of self, to share.

      9. mommypino says:

        Thank you NA and NunyaBiz! 💕.

      10. nunya biz says:

        Yes, NA, true. I can be empathic and be…
        WRONG. Or disagreeable. Or moody.

      11. nunya biz says:

        Omg, these puns are killing me, why do I love puns.

      12. mommypino says:

        Lol I’m just amazed at how discussions here can evolve. 😂🤣

      13. nunya biz says:

        I think narcissists can be so destructive. I say “turn me from water to stone”. That’s why I don’t want to let my energy get tangled and I am trying for a higher degree of disengagement. It is pattern interrupt sometimes and I so love being encouraging. I’ve been thinking about how I feel when my best qualities are amplified and how sometimes narcissists are confusing and make those things liabilities. HG says there is jealousy, etc… it always seems strange to me because the outcome is so predictable. I think they can negate their own best interest sometimes but especially mine.
        My big reason for cutting those kinds of cords is because when I really look at the big picture I see the small things are not small, the life alteration is huge. It’s not just when in an abusive romantic relationship. It is everything I don’t have access to in that moment because of someone else’s anchor. And why, I get such joy out of small appreciation. I still don’t really understand, but it seems like a huge influence on the world.
        I think so many good things come out of evolving conversations.

      14. nunya biz says:

        And I’m sure you meant the cows, MP.
        You know I didn’t even say “mooooody” in my previous comment because I wasn’t aware of the cow talk happening right under my nose.

        But I was thinking about the conversation stuff this morning anyway.

      15. mommypino says:

        NunyaBiz, I was laughing so hard at the exchange. Especially the Windstorm the Inseminator part. It has a really good ring to it.

        I absolutely love puns, but I’m not good at coming up with one. But I always appreciate good puns.

        I love how discussions here can evolve. I love the humor and the things that I learn.

        Speaking of shitty jobs, I had my share of it and a little trivia to share. One of my first jobs ever was scraping off dried carabao poop from the road to give to my grandma to use as firestarter for her stove. She had a stove made of clay and she burn’t wood in it to cook food. Sometimes the store doesn’t have gasoline for firestarter because they weren’t able to stock up because it was such a rural area. So my grandma would pay me to get dried carabao dung for her because they are very flammable. I think it’s the same for cow poop because they are both herbivores. The key is that it has to be really dried up from the sun so this will only work during the summer. I thought that I would share this to all of you so that if there’s a zombie apocalypse and you’re looking for a fire-starter you know you have more options. Especially to the ones who grew up in the urban areas.

        I also had my share of farm life. When I was 8 we moved feom Manila to a rural town close to my relatives and we had chickens, ducks, a dog, and a pig. But never a cat because my matrinarc believed that cats are useless. I treated them all like pets even though we eventually cooked all of them. When I was 11 my grandma told me that the time has come that I learn how to cook a duck. But the first step is to kill it so she gave me a machete and told me to sit on it and hack the neck. I was so sad for the duck and overcame with it that I did such a poor job. My grandma was laughing at how incompetent I was while my mom was angrily chasing the duck. I just remember being shocked and watching everything. I didn’t know how long a duck can run around and even fly with a head partially detached. It was bumping into everything because it couldn’t see where it was going but it was going so fast and my angry mom was running after it. I realized I am not meant for farm life.

        Windstorm, growing up in a cattle, did they ever make you kill an animal?

        1. windstorm says:

          We did not slaughter our own cattle or hogs. That’s a major job to dress out, cut up and package the meat of such large animals. We sent them to a butcher while still alive. My parents hated live chicken, ducks and geese and refused to have them in our farm. I did hear lots of stories like yours about the antics of chickens with their heads cut off from my parents youth.

          I had to kill and skin squirrels and frogs, which were both delicacies at our house, but they were of course wild animals, not pets. I caught, killed and scaled fish, also. All of which caused me tremendous grief.

          I choose myself to shoot a beloved old dog who had advanced cancer. I thought that would be less stressful for her than taking her to the Veternarian – which always terrorized her. It took her 5 minutes to totally die and stop involuntary movements and sounds. I didn’t expect that and it was very, very hard on me. I stayed with her and petted her until all movement stopped. From then on, I’ve had old, impossibly sick animals euthanized at home by my veterinarian. That’s still very painful for me, but hopefully not for the animals.

      16. mommypino says:


        What do you mean by a higher degree of disengagement?

        I agree that narcissists can negate their own best interests and especially the empaths in their lives. I used to be so dumbfounded with the poor decisions that my narcs madenin their lives that sabotaged their own lives. My MRE sister was so smart (she even got accepted in Mensa along with our brother), very well-read, can speak fluent Mandarin and some Spanish, very socially adept and yet her decisions in life are so foolish. Now it makes sense because as HG has said, “Fuel comes first.”

        When you say that you are cutting the cords, do you mean the whole relationship or just the energy entaglement that lets them affect you?

      17. mommypino says:


        I looked it up, we used kerosene as fire starter for our stove and not gasoline. I just got confused because we called it “gaas” in Tagalog. But it’s a clear liquid, cool to the touch and has a strong smell so I think it’s kerosene.

      18. nunya biz says:

        Hi, MP, you are a great storyteller, I really enjoyed that. I never had to kill an animal. I did start life in a farm environment though, my grandparents tried to be as self-sufficient as they could manage while being school teachers. They had chickens and lots of veggies, a small corn field, tons of fruit trees, etc… My grandmother canned all summer and some meat came from the farm next door. I remember a cow tongue in the fridge and I’d eat tongue sandwiches. I was isolated and best friends with the dog and feral cats. I’d moved to a more populated area by age six.

        By higher level of disengagement…
        well, it’s hard to explain, but overall I have cut out all narcissists (with the potential exception of my husband who I still don’t feel confident to define really). I don’t even speak to family narcissists. The pain of that was too much. I feel I suffer physical pain and anger from dealing with them. I began to have an anxiety attack in group therapy (which is, no surprise, filled with N’s and E’s) just mentioning my mother. I have to sometimes interact with N’s due to a group function like most people, such as a work thing, a get together, any group interaction. And in those cases I keep it to a minimum, try to disengage my energy, and be sure to say “no” to anything I feel necessary, though I will say “yes” to brief requests and hold short un-engaging conversations.
        A more charismatic narcissist type though I can’t say that’s the case so much, they are funny and enjoyable. So then I just won’t entertain a deep relationship or any sense of obligation. I guess it depends on the drain of my energy. My family narcs drained my energy far too much, so I’m sensitive about it.
        I also mean disengaging in a narcissistic behavior from a non-narcissist. Since reading the blog my boundaries are easier to hold because I have a cognitive understanding. So someone repeatedly asking me to do something I do not want to do is no pull on me. Don’t get me wrong, I have an easy time doing kind things for people, narcissist or not, I like to be generous and I can do so even easier in some ways. I just have to be aware of my motivation and any potential energy pitfalls. Yesterday I ran into a somatic female I’ve interacted with in the past at the gym (she does body competitions) and I just turned around and walked off when I saw her. She saw me do so in the mirror and snapped around to stare at me, I don’t know why I just acted like I was headed to the restroom.

        I have several female friends who repeatedly get into relationships with narcissists. I don’t think they are fully aware that is what is happening, but it is. I have a deep craving for emotional connection that can’t be fully met by someone I don’t relate to in terms of perceptions of others and processing past issues, that goes for men and women. I find that usually those people will be highly narcissistic or empathetic with some narc traits. I’m trying to lean toward the latter with hopefully at least the narc traits being more healthy, but not always. “Normies” as they are called on here, I cannot bond to I think. I can have wonderful, engaging, fulfilling conversations, but no relationship. I seem to only bond to people who are codependent, narcissistic, deeply feeling, etc…

      19. mommypino says:

        Windstorm, wow that has to be really hard watching your dog like that for that long. But you probably made the right decision and you still stayed with her and comforted her even though it was so hard for you to watch her like that. It takes a lot of strength but ultimately you were doing it for her. 💕

      20. mommypino says:


        So you are wondering if your husband might be a narc? When I was just new here there were articles that almost made me wonder if my husband is a narc because is highly narcissistic. But this article “Why Do Narcissists Operate Using the Same Book” gave me a definite answer that he is not a narc. The penultimate paragraph has a list of traits that must be present and my husband doesn’t have black and white thinking, poor boundary recognition, he doesn’t regard people as appliances that he owns forever, magical thinking and need for fuel. He is not very empathic, for example just today, his employee told him something sad about her friend, his response to her was, “I’ve never seen anybody with so much drama in her life.” It bothers me a lot of times. He’s not the best person to confide to. He would jokingly tell me if I ever make a mostake of confiding in him, “You just need to get over yourself.” He is also bossy and controlling, but only because he wants things to get done correctly or in a certain way and not for getting fuel or feeling powerful. He also has a lot of sweet side. But it’s in his own terms. He would surprise me with flowers or gifts just because. But when he does something that upsets me and I bring it up to him he would twist and turn the conversations and I find myself being the one to apologize to him and him never apologizing. He’s so smart and I never see him get nervous or emotional unless he feels that he is being criticized, then I start to see emotions of being defensive to make sure that he proves that the criticism doesn’t have any merit. Very alpha personality. But at the end of the argument, he still loves me and never paints me black. He never withholds affection. He always gives me a goodnight kiss even on days that we had a big fight. I’m actually the one who doesn’t initiate to kiss him because of my ego, but then he will approach me and ask, “What? No goodnight kiss?” So I will still kiss him, also partly because his voice almost sounded like a threat. Then he will be much nicer but still doesn’t apologize.

        Although recently, maybe a month or so ago, I confronted him and told him about the things that I don’t like about him. I threatened that if we don’t do counseling I will leave. He asked to try it without counseling first and promised to change those things. He doesn’t believe in psychologists even though it was one of his double majors. So far he’s been so amazing. And I’m back to being really happy with our marriage again. He’s really trying hard to be more empathic now. I’m his third marriage and we don’t have a prenup so he would totally be screwed if this marriage doesn’t work. But I have 100% desire of making it work too. I love him and really want our marriage to last forever and would never want to destroy his life. So I’m happy that it’s working for us right now.

        But basically, I’m attracted to his narcissistic traits but I’m also annoyed by them big time. But at least I don’t need to worry about being painted black. The problem is if I imagine myself being married to someone like my brother who is not that highly narcissistic, I will probably get bored. I feel that it is weird, and probably has a lot to do with my upbringing, that I feel safe and secured with a highly narcissistic man in my life controlling most of our life.

      21. MommyPino says:

        Hi NunyaBiz,

        Speaking of cutting cords, I have this 5 girlfriends that I celebrate birthdays with every year and one of them is a narc and we rarely see each other outside or our birthday night outs. Well, I just fired all of them last Friday on my birthday.

        The reason is because my birthday is 12 days ahead of the narc’s birthday, and for some reason, my birthday has been held hostage by her birthday for so many years and the whole group went along with it. It has given me this feeling that I am lower ranking in the group’s totem pole and so I just decided to be through with it. The meme that says our birthdays infuriate the narcs in our lives tell me that no matter how hard I try, the situation will never improve because of the fact that my birthday is really close to the narc’s.

        Most years they celebrate our birthdays together to save money and time but it’s always on the narc’s terms. I have cut my cords with them when I left my job (we all used to work together) and they hoovered me back in by saying that they want to celebrate mine and the narc’s birthday. I agreed and planned ahead by getting a nice gift for the narc. About a week before the dinner, the narc casually mentioned to me that the dinner will be just for her birthday. I reacted badly and told her that I just don’t think that she’s a good person. She played the victim and told everybody in the group and even some of the moms in the mother’s club. The empath in the group who was our former boss kept on persuading me to reconnect with them after that. I didn’t have a social life and I wanted to please my former boss so I attended all of their birthdays and played along. The next year they celebrated mine and the narc’s together. The year after that I was informed by the narc that because she’s turning 40 they are giving us seperate birthday dinners. But because of time constraints my birthday ended up being completely skipped that year. I still attended all of their birthdays and got them presents. Then the year after they celebrated our birthdays together but the narc said during the dinner that she is finally ok to share her birthday with me which sounded like the only reason my birthday was being celebrated with hers is because she allowed it, she graced it upon me. So that didn’t make me feel important. This year my empath boss told me that because the narc is due on giving birth at the end of this month, she will try to ask if I can have my own birthday celebrated because if we wait for the narc, my birthday might not get celebrated until the end of February. Then on my birthday I asked her what the plan was and she said that when she brought it up, they thought that they didn’t want to offend the narc by celebrating my birthday first and hold off her birthday. So I told her that I don’t want to be part of the group birthdays anymore. I’m still their friend, I can do other activities with them as long as it is not about our birthdays. She said that what she said came off the wrong way. That she must have gotten me upset blah blah blah. I told her that it’s not an emotional decision and that it’s just not working for me anymore. So tonight, I got text messages from all of them that they are planning mine and the narc’s birthdays, completely ignoring that I have opted out. Then it’s funny, the narc said that if she gives birth before the date that they agreed then we will just cancel it. Doesn’t even ask me if she can cancel mine too or if it’s ok to cancel our joint birthdays, just makes the decision for both of us. So I’m just going to ignore the whole thing now. I’m just going to be true to myself now and not let anybody guilt or pressure me into anything that doesn’t feel good for me.

      22. nunya biz says:

        MP, you could always just block all of their phone numbers
        : P

        But yes, thank you for sharing, THAT is why I cut cords with them. It’s nothing but a nonstop time and emotion suck. I’ve been in situations like that so many times and some of them are really more subtle. So what I decided is, why should I even waste one minute? Last time victim narc called me and I answered I just midway through a sentence told him I had to go and hung up. No reason to get mad at all. Really the time and feeling annoyed and wondering and considering…..and the veiled insults, from ALL of them. They are insults.

        I hat started to tell people off and sometimes get really creative about it,. I also used to sometimes include a little hint about what kind of behavior is appropriate. No more! I know this is narcissistic behavior and the person has it all rationalized in their head already. Even your narc-y non-narc “friends” (you could surely get better ones). When I hang around with empathetic CoD’s usually the worst case scenario is they tell me to help someone too much. I still say no and it can irritate me but they won’t toss an insult or anything. And they say BOOSTING things a lot.

        I also realized that when I just say no a couple times to narcs very early on (because it’s easy and I know they asked too much) they somehow get too busy to keep talking to me anyway. Which is great.
        I had already had built my guard up in the past, just without the understanding from HG that smoothed it out better and mostly life feels easier with less STRINGS (stings everywhere) is better. I’ve always made new friends all the time anyway. They just frequently kept hogging focus from the last one that pushed me too far. A new one would push in. NO PUSHING. They would always find me.
        Funny also, yesterday some somatic body builder guy I’d cut communication with a long while back and have avoided tried to ask if he could share my equipment at the gym when there was an empty one next to me, I looked at him like he was a walking talking moron, but said yeah. He never came back of course as I was very unimpressed.
        REAL JERKS, me me me me me. Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

      23. nunya biz says:

        MP, this answer is in response to
        “So you are wondering if your husband might be a narc?”

        Thank you for your nuanced reply. I relate to much of what you said and I don’t know if my husband is or isn’t. Based on all I read I would lean toward the idea that he is a very strange case who learned narc behaviors so thoroughly from his narc parents that he comes off that way defensively and unconsciously but yet he thoroughly lacks some of the more obvious defining behaviors. He does not fuel seek, on the other hand he has smiled at my pain reactions on several occasions, but it’s not consistent. That is obviously N. He also logic circles in self-defense with no idea he is doing it and I can’t break it without becoming mean about it. He can never be wrong, although I can again I can break the black and white thought cycle if I put in effort that I find tiresome. I believe he has painted me black at times.

        He is not directly competitive he just assumes he knows what he is doing and does it regardless of anyone else’s view. In his particular line of work this is very good for him. His line of work is academic and analytical, so in that way he comes off more “aspergers” type focused and it simply results in him not climbing the ambition latter, but he is never questioned and his conclusions are deferred to. He is very affable and would never make someone look bad at work or compete with them, he simply has no need. I think it would be difficult for him to fire someone. On the other hand encouraging them to succeed isn’t a gift of his either. He just sees the world in a particular way. I believe he has no genetic predisposition to narcissism and he was adopted.
        His lack of empathy, along with lack of “leadership qualities” I’ll call it, though has caused him to do some highly damaging and hurtful things that I won’t detail. And I suffer pain from being misunderstood and not connected to. He has historically gone through long phases where I feel he literally cannot see me. I now understand that narcissistic self-centeredness does actually block some form of “seeing” another person and that explains some of the behavior to me. I wish I could describe the feeling invisible sometimes. I like what you say about your husband kissing you before bed, that to me is coming back to something constant. But my husband is completely stable, consistent, unwavering and generally doesn’t alter his behavior for good or for bad.
        I myself have some narcissistic qualities, I can never deny that, but my emotional connection is there and I can work to improve myself very easily. My intentions are always ultimately for truth and what is best and I come back to that.

        In the end what I think is that I should not need proof of anything. I am unhappy with the level of connection, I do not feel the things I should and I have a great difficulty honoring my opinion and feeling on that and that is what I need to focus on. Finding things that make me feel fulfilled without unnecessary guilt. Now FEAR, that’s another issue. But that’s where my focus is on improving. He offered marriage therapy after he has realized I am done but I refused. I am doing my own therapy, for myself, and I have no interest in couple therapy. At least I can say that. We do things together though, like exercise and family activities. I am releasing control and anger and if I am lonely it is something I can accept because at least it’s real and I don’t need proof, instead of constantly trying to figure out the problems and rationalize and fix. If I drop the ET then I realize I have a right to want things that he can’t give and that’s fine.

    2. mommypino says:

      NunyaBiz, I’m the same when the manipulation is blatant or when I’m 100% sure that I am being manipulated or attacked. I can also be very evil with my words. Even my husband told me that nobody would ever guess that I can be like that unless they see it. When I get to a point where I have no doubt that a person is my enemy I tend to destroy. My husband calls out crappy behavior and has a very alpha personality but he never gets to a point where I get where it’s like operation scorched earth. I have been thinking that it might be one of the narcissistic characteristics that I acquired from my mom.

    3. nunya biz says:

      OH! And speaking of
      me me me me me…
      I was so busy on my little rant, I had meant to tell you!
      Great job dropping out of the birthday group.
      I am glad you were born mommypino.

      1. mommypino says:

        Lol thank you NunyaBiz. I’m not yet at your level in terms of pushing them away. I still can’t block their numbers out of fear that it will be too harsh. But I’m getting there eventually. Just baby steps for now lol. Thank you for sharing and that really helped me because I was starting to have some guilts about being too harsh to my empath former boss. Now I’m feeling reassured that i did the right thing. My husband is the same as you, he said that I’m actually too nice that I even diplomatically explained myself to my empath friend and said goodbye. He said that he would have just completely ignore them and not care if they are wondering why he is ignoring them. He said that he has never heard in his life hiw someone’s birhday can offend another person’s birthday. He thinks that they live in a different world. He said he wants to tell my former boss at the bank when he goes there that he’s offended that she has a birthday lol. 😊

      2. mommypino says:

        NB, also what you said a few days ago about detaching oneself, that really helped me too in making this decision with zero emotions. I looked at the situation objectively and recognize that this will never improve and so I made a decision to cut the cord. She was so worried that my birthday had been ruined because she got me upset and I tild her I really am not upset, that it’s not an emotional decision. I was 100% happy on my birthday and it actually felt good that I took control. It’s not so bad to feel powerful. Sometimes we also need to feed the narc side inside of us. It feels good to be the doer and not the done to. I love your metaphor of STRINGS everywhere. That is the imagery that I need. You’re way ahead of me but thatbis also the direction that I want to go. Cut the unnecessary strings.

      3. mommypino says:


        I’m sorry about what your going through with your husband. I’m tearing up reading your discussions with K. I can’t imagine going through that for years with someone who’s supposed to be my life partner. When my husband and I argues, which doesn’t happen very often, our anger only lasts for a day or two. We both can’t wait to be back to being nice to each other again. Even though I tried to give him silent treatments which I learned from my narc family members, I could not keep it up because he’s still my husband and I need to be connected to him. I think that what K has said makes so much sense. You can also probably consult with HG on this so that you can be very sure on what he is and how to handle it. 💕

      4. nunya biz says:

        Ah, you know, there’s no level. I’m glad it helped, I only intend to support your correct opinion that you should disengage from that terrible awful behavior (even by someone you feel is an empath, and it happens to have a well intended person behave selfishly, for sure). But the idea that I’m focused on and sharing is that you should be in a place where you aren’t taken for granted, whatever place that is for you. And apparantly you totally did that because you had a great birthday and you didn’t spend it mad. That is what I strive for, to disengage without unnecessary emotional response. It is very freeing. I have so much work to do it’s ridiculous. But I do love the topic and I love being optimistic. I’m so happy about what your husband said.

        I saw comments regarding my other stuff, I appreciate it. I will say more tomorrow, I’ve been meaning to get back but I’ve been running around nonstop for two days and for some reason I couldn’t sleep last night so was running on two hours of sleep. I hope you are well.

      5. MommyPino says:

        Thank you NunyaBiz!

        The feeling is definitely freeing. I hope that you have a really good rest tonight. Maybe catch a little afternoon nap if possible. Take care always. 💕💕

      6. nunya biz says:

        “Even though I tried to give him silent treatments which I learned from my narc family members, I could not keep it up ”

        Lol, MP, at silent treatments I fail. I’ve also tried. It is my mother and sister’s go to. And with complexities! Once I cried on the phone to my mother that she called my sister and never called me anymore and listening to the explanation of why while I was teary was educational.

        I look back though at narc behaviors I imitated and realize I was doing them especially in my early twenties. I was mirroring entire thought processes that had never even been verbalized to me. It’s something I now see in my husband. What I also remember though is that sometimes I would get negative feedback for the behaviors and I would feel it through my entire body in crushing waves. It took me so long to sort that kind of thing and HG’s stuff helps me sort much more.

      7. nunya biz says:

        Ah I did sleep. I typed that yesterday while HG was proving his human necessity to do the same.
        ; )

      8. mommypino says:


        Your dynamics with your husband sounds really complicated. It sounds like there has been so much toxicity that is affecting your bond with him. The toxicity especially comes from bad habits that he learned from his narc parents. It is really sad.

        I have a confession to make, I can relate to your husband. I also had bad narcy behaviors that I learned from my mom (Lesser) and sister (MR) and I used to use it against people that piss me off. For example, I smiled when my step daughter was angry while being scolded by her dad. I made sure that she saw me smile. In fairness though, she and her sister have been bullies to me for a long time before I started doing those narcish behaviors to them. Also, she was being scolded for aomething that she did to me. But looking back now, I wish that I didn’t do it. It wasn’t right and it didn’t help our relationship. My husband doesn’t believe on psychologists or psychoatrists or therapists. He went through marriage counselors with his second marriage and he said that it was poorly handled and even encouraged his second wife to leave him. He said that some of them can be really stupid and doesn’t really care. I think ironically, the thing that helped me shake off a lot of my toxic behaviors was my husband’s alpha personality. When I try to pull one on him he calls me out right away. The less I am able to do it the less they become habits.

        I am praying for you and I hope that you get more rest today. Take care. 💕💕

      9. mommypino says:

        I also want to add that I liked that he suggested therapy. Maybe he is just a guy that is not equipped with healthy skills or ways of resolving conflicts. Has he done a some type of therapy for himself?

      10. nunya biz says:

        It is complicated, MP.

        And yes it is “good” he suggested counseling. We did a bit in the past. I won’t know because of specific things he’s done and other people involved
        Everything you are saying makes sense and I’ve done worse things than you describe.

        I’m not in love with him. I’m 100% honest at all times. He’s too detached.

        It is what it is. There is no answer only choices.
        Thanks, MP. Xo

      11. mommypino says:

        Sorry, I think what I wanted to say got lost because my brain got sidetracked. I just wanted to say that maybe him smiling at you when you were hurting was a way to provoke you to hurt you and not necessarily to gain fuel from you. I could be 100% wrong. In my case when I smiled at my SD when she was being scolded, it wasn’t to gain fuel from her but a way for me to wven piss her off, like my way of gloating at her because she was being scolded by her dad. Just my guess, but I totally don’t know the situation when it happened to you.

  3. wissh says:

    I don’t know yet what kind, if any, empath I am, but certainly none of these described fit.

    1. Leanne says:

      I wish I had that problem, wiish! I fit all schools and cadres. Some a little more than others, but I could easily drag up parts of me that fit

      HG, is the ‘contagion’ article coming soon?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Wait and see.

  4. Newby 1111 says:

    Not going to kick the Savior Empath out of bed for eating crisps! Hahahaha, what timing. Was just this morning I was watching America’s Got Talent UK with a buddy and I turned to her as a particularly adorable young lad was singing and said, ” Well, I sure wouldn’t kick him out of bed for eating crackers! Heck, I wouldn’t kick him out of bed for passing wind either!” Even across the pond the expressions say alike.
    And coming from the mouth of the Savior Empath herself!! Indeed.

  5. Rebecca Sager says:

    My husband is definitely a SCD with a smattering of contagion it seems. He seems to have a habit of befriending women who turn into projects for him to fix. Can’t even claim he picks them up cause they are all old friends from years ago. Past year we had a hell of a blow out over one such “project”. He learned that I not only have a spine but will use it on him if need be. He still falls over himself apologizing and said project was removed herself to magically fix herself (she was definitely a mid-range victim Narc). His resolution is no more of such things on pain of me ripping his guts out in court.

    And before anyone asks no he didn’t sleep with any of these ladies. Least not that I found evidence of. I can tell they were open to it but he never reciprocated in anything I saw. Down side of your business booming is little time for anything else and I wasn’t inclined to leaving him alone with said females if I could help it. Now if I could just get him to read H.G.’s works…

  6. kel says:

    I know I don’t feel narcissist have good hiding inside. To me the trouble with them is they have bad in them, and some have something pretty evil in there. I think as humans that they can have good qualities, that they are human after all, I’m fairly sure, but that they’re kind of unconsciously ruled by a dark side. There are different degrees of malice where some aren’t that malicious and others are dangerous. I do believe in justice, and in helping someone out that needs it, but I would be more inclined to let a shoplifter know I saw what he did to lay some guilt on his conscious than rat him out. I believe in good, but I’m not a bull in a china shop.

    1. nunya biz says:

      I am the same way, kel, I’d almost always rather tell the person to their face. It is highly unusual for me to go outside of that, especially if the consequences are dire, and pretty much 100% if it was something I participated in with the person- I like to take responsibility, it’s in my nature and I’d rather just speak my mind in the moment. But if I think calling someone out to someone else will benefit everyone and probably even the person who crossed the line then I will. In other words if it is only a lose-lose to not do it then I will and have no problem. I’ve noticed that is rare. I always prefer one-on-one discussion and hate the idea of utilizing hierarchical systems when not necessary and I always think people make mistakes, all people, so I consider it a fact of life that everything doesn’t go my way or the right way and I like the fact that life is messy.

  7. lisk says:

    I’m definitely not a Savior Empath, but I’m pretty sure the narc is with one now, at least as an IPSS. I don’t think he’ll be able to tolerate her enough to graduate her to IPPS, but you never know.

  8. nunya biz says:

    I was wondering about this one also.

    1. nunya biz says:

      Sometimes I am leaning toward SCE. I wish you would please write the contagion one : ).

      1. Leanne says:

        Yes pretty please 🌼

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