Save The Children

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If there is one thing which will often scupper an attempt to escape our clutches, it is the existence of children. On the one hand the existence of children created by you and our kind often results in you continuing to endure the relationship for the sake of the children rather than separate. On the other hand, even if you do decide that it is better to separate than stay with our kind, you are rarely able to truly escape because of the shared connection that exists because of the children. Even though you wish to escape the roller coaster existence of being with our kind, as an empathic person you behave fairly and recognise that the children should see their other parent and thus you either make provision or allow for contact to continue between our kind and the children which in turn means that there must inevitably remain contact between you and us. You may however take the draconian step of deciding that it is in the best interests of the children to have no contact with the narcissistic (although usually you only realise the other parent is abusive rather than narcissistic at this juncture) parent and cut all contact off. This then results in our kind turning to formal means through the courts to establish contact with the child or children again.

Your concerns in respect of the involvement of our kind in the raising of children cover numerous factors.

  1. You are concerned that our behaviour will affect the children so that they in turn become narcissists;
  2. You are worried that our behaviour leads to the children witnessing abusive behaviour towards you which will upset the children;
  3. You are concerned that our behaviour will lead to the children not receiving a stable and nurturing upbringing;
  4. You are worried that the children will be used as pawns between you and us and adversely influence so they are turned against you;
  5. You are concerned by our failing to provide emotional and financial support which will in turn impact on the children; and
  6. You are worried that our behaviours will effectively spoil what should be happy moments in childhood.

These, along with others, are legitimate concerns. It becomes especially difficult for you when you find that you face a battle between doing what is right for a child even though this may clash with what they want. They want to spend time with us but you see such time as toxic and having an influence on the child (who as a child cannot see or comprehend what is happening) which is at best unhelpful and at worst downright damaging. How do you deal with a situation where you need to do what is right and best for a child, even though they will not see this at the time? First of all, what must you understand about our attitude towards children and parenting?

  1. Children are regarded as appliances by us. There is no distinction made for the fact that they are children nor that we are their parent. We see children as appliances and devices which are extension of ourselves and therefore there to do our bidding. You should never be under any illusion that a narcissistic parent loves the child. Do not be fooled into thinking that any benign act exhibited by our kind is a manifestation of love towards a child. It is not;
  2. This pervading mind set means that children will be used in order to gather fuel. This will be done directly by obtaining fuel from them. Initially this will manifest as wanting to spoil them when we have time with them so that their positive responses to this will provide us with positive fuel. We will upset, anger and frustrate children in addition to draw negative fuel as and when it is deemed appropriate. This is not done because the positive fuel has become stale (as is the case when devaluation occurs in the context of an intimate partner primary source) but is an adjunct of wanting to achieve some other aim. The two most popular aims are control and triangulation. We will provoke a negative fuel response from children in order to exert control over them, for instance, taking a toy away or forbidding them to do something that they enjoy such as watching a certain television programme or being allowed some sweets. This reinforces our control. A child is no different from any other appliance and must be subjected to our control. This control is not exerted for the benefit of the child, for instance, stopping the child from eating sweets every day because it is unhealthy, but is only done so we can establish control. In terms of triangulation, the negative emotional response will be achieved for the purposes of triangulating you. For instance, we may suggest to the child that mummy does not love the child so it becomes upset. We only care about the reaction, not the well-being of the child. We may say that the child cannot do something on your instruction, in order to both upset the child and thus gain negative fuel and at the same time smear you through this triangulation. Thus, when negative fuel is sought from a child it arises in conjunction with the desire to control and/or to triangulate.
  3. The traits and achievements of the child are up for grabs in the same way that we steal and acquire traits from adults in order to furnish our construct and make ourselves look even more appealing. Our sense of entitlement is such that the child has only won the race, come top of the class, swum that distance, secured a place on a vacation scheme as a consequence of our brilliance. We will remind you, the child and third parties that this is the case. Repeatedly.
  4. We will smear and brief against you at every available opportunity. Irrespective of the reasons why the relationship between you and us ended, we will not rise above the desire for smearing for the sake of the children. If there is an opportunity to take a pot shot at you, it will be taken. The needs of the children do not ever come before our needs. Thus if they are upset by what we say about you, we receive fuel and do not care how it affects them. If they begin to dislike you because we suggest you are too strict, we will not counter that but rather we will cultivate this position to our advantage.
  5. Just like you, children can cause criticism to us. Rather than soak it up as a mature, well-adjusted parent would, we will lash out when there is a perceived or actual criticism of us delivered by the words and/or actions of the child. This will as ever result in the ignition of fury and the manifestation of heated fury or cold fury. We will sulk with a child, turn away from them if they want support and/or shout at them. The fact they are a child is meaningless to us. The fact we as a parent owe obligations to them to behave in a mature and responsible fashion to them does not matter because our needs come first.
  6. We have no sense of responsibility or obligation to children. A lesser narcissist will see no need to maintain maintenance payments and will be content not to see work. A greater may well make such payments, not because he cares about the children but it is done to show to everybody else how generous he is and also to make you look bad if your financial contributions are not as substantial. The payment or otherwise of financial support will be used as a carrot and stick against you throughout the duration of childhood. We will only become involved in the lives of the children if we regard there as being some kind of benefit to us. Their emotional needs, education, safety etc. are irrelevant to us. We will attend a school performance not to show support to the child so they feel happy, but to show to other parents that we apparently love and support the child, so we gain fuel and infuriate you. We regard obligations as beneath us, we have no sense of accountability, our sense of entitlement means we can do as we please, our lack of guilt or conscience means there is no mechanism causing us to adopt an alternative stance.
  7. Understand that children are pawns which will ALWAYS be used to our advantage. Whether it is to bind you to us during the golden period, to make us look good to others, to draw fuel, to exert control, to triangulate, to perpetuate abuse and so forth, our interactions with our children are governed by our needs. In the same way that our interactions with you as intimate partner, or our involvement with an inner circle friend, or our dealing with a stranger are all governed by our needs first, the same is applicable to children.
  8. Attempting to curtail our involvement with the children is seen as a criticism to us, irrespective of how morally and factually correct your action may be. That is irrelevant to us. We will use the court system for our purposes. We do not wish to spend time with our children for their sake, but instead it is for our sake. We may find it boring having them but if we know the fact they stay with us one night a week upsets and angers you, we will do it in order to draw this fuel from you and therefore we will use the court system to fight. It is not a fight for the benefit of the children. It is a fight for the maintenance of our needs – fuel, control, triangulation etc.

With this mind set of ours now apparent in our interactions with you and the children, how do you deal with us?

  1. Minimise the interaction you have with us. Establish a system for messages to be sent by e-mail or text. If this is deviated from by a telephone call, do not take the call but allow voice mail to pick up the call and then you can establish how best to respond thereafter and you will not provide fuel by being tricked into answering a call. If possible, prevent any face to face contact between you and us concerning the children. We draw the most fuel from seeing your emotional reactions face to face. Remove this (where practical) and you are denying us fuel. For instance, utilise the assistance of other family members or friends for the handover of the children until such an age as when they can use transport or walk between venues safely.
  2. Ensure all communications are to the point, business-like and contain no emotion. This again denies us fuel. Establish a five-minute rule so that you never immediately respond to our communications (when you are more likely to do so in an emotional fashion as we try to provoke you). If five minutes is too short, extend the time.
  3. By denying us fuel we will (initially) try to provoke you in different ways concerning arrangements and interaction with the children. Weather that storm and because we must obtain fuel we will have to seek it elsewhere. You are not a viable source so we will eventually look to obtain fuel from you less and less. You will also eventually notice that this manifests by us losing interest in the children. Remember, we are not interested in the children per se but how they as appliances can serve us.
  4. You will face an ongoing battle between your influence and our influence. This is deliberate as it is used to provoke you into confronting us about what we say about you, what we say to the children and what we do with them. We want you to engage. You must resist the need to do so. Remember, you will not make us change. We will not listen to you. We want to control you and draw fuel from you. We use the children to achieve this. Accordingly, if the children comment that we are making disparaging comments about you: –
  5. Do not confront us about the issue, it is futile;
  6. Do not seek to influence the view of the child by saying “Dad is a bad person” this will trouble the child and the response will be conveyed to us which will secure Thought Fuel for us and also provide us with further ammunition to use against you for your comment. Instead, move on to discussing something else  and the child is likely to forget about the comment. If the child persists in wanting to discuss the matter, then explain that Dad does things differently to you and then move on. Provide reassurance and listen to the child but do not, however tempting it may be, do or say anything disparaging as this plays into our hands. Your role is to maintain a positive influence for your children as often as you are able. By doing this (and starving us of fuel so the interaction will lessen) your positive influence will progressively outweigh our negative influence. The more you expose your children to a positive influence and avoid walking into our traps and playing into our hands, you will tip the balance so that they will, through the effluxion of time and exposure to this positive influence flourish under it and make their own minds up.
  7. In a similar fashion to how you must deal with a smear campaign, do not tell the children what to think, but allow them to make up their own minds. This will be difficult at first and you will no doubt find yourself on the receiving end of hurtful and challenging behaviour. Keep in mind that this is our influence (not what the child really thinks) and that as you weather the storm, the effects of your positive influence will eventually manifest. As the children become older you can present them with independent evidence of behaviour (not just hearsay and say so) so they can evaluate this for themselves and make their own minds-up. Like third parties, children do not want to be involved in a conflict between two people and they do not want to be told what to do. Cater for this and you will minimise disruption and increase your positive influence.
  8. Your approach is one of ensuring the “light side” overcomes the “dark side”. This can only be achieved by repeated reinforcement of positive behaviour and influence. If you engage in behaviours similar to ours, you enter onto our home turf and you will not only encourage us to keep going with our behaviours but you will find there is a negative outcome for both you and the children.
  9. If our behaviour is serious in terms of impact on the children – for instance violence or neglect – involve the relevant authorities. You will not be able to cause us to recognise we have done anything wrong because we either do not recognise that we have or we will not admit it for the purposes of maintaining control.
  10. If you regard it as appropriate, save messages and e-mails which exhibit our behaviour and allow the child access to them when an adult. This is again the presentation of independent evidence when they are in a position to make their own minds up. You must not engage in a popularity contest or sling mud; you will lose as this is playing into our hands.
  11. If you find yourself having to engage with us through the court system, ensure those representing you are familiar with our kind. Rely on independent evidence as much as possible rather than “he said, she said”. Recognise that we are experts at duping people and our lawyers, your lawyers, psychologists, court officials and judges can just as easily be duped. If a hearing does not go your way, resist the urge to lash out at us – it is of course just fuel – and instead continue to adopt a positive approach towards your children. That must always be your focus. We want you to engage with us and we will use children and the court system to provoke you to do this. Fail to engage and you take away much of our power.

It is hard. A narcissistic parent is a fact. We will not go away so long as we are getting what we want or believe we can do so. Prevent us from getting what we want, demonstrate to us that we are unlikely to get what we want and we will turn our attention elsewhere. This will then allow your positive influence to have an even greater bearing on the children and undo any harmful effects from our toxic influence. You will face challenges but by trying to address our behaviour, cater for it and pander to it, you will not succeed in protecting your children. I have seen this first hand.

26 thoughts on “Save The Children

  1. saboaffikustephen says:

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  2. saboaffikustephen says:

    I am looking forward to your thoughts

  3. Chubby says:

    Hello HG,

    My teenage son is behaving towards me like his MR father. I am not in the position to leave yet, but is there anything else that I can do to stop my son becoming a narc?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Consult with me and I will be able to assist you with this detailed matter.

  4. Renarde says:

    I’ve been really bothering HG’s bandwidth today but I wanted to say some extremely important words to those in the UK.

    Well one word. CAFCASS.

    If you ever find yourself in the invidious position of dealing with this agency be very VERY careful how you proceed. Very careful indeed. I perceive a lot of them are narcs, usually MR’s.

    Record everything. Use your phone. So you will go through a phone interview, then a face to face one. Record it. Everything. They twist and lie, even on a court document. A criminal offence.

    They produce two documents. One is from the phone interview and the initial statement to the court. The second is the Section 7 itself.

    A quick google using ‘CAFCASS’ brings up so many posts of bias in the S7. So much so, that others are wondering if there is a CAFCASS agenda. Yeah there is, it’s fuel. Durr.

    If you record all contact with them then once it gets to the final hearing (and it will) you can forensically rip the S7 apart.

    I remember from the off that there was something ‘off’ about the CAFCASS officer in my case. Let’s call her S. I met her face to face in the summer of last year.

    She swanned about wearing an outfit that was more appropriate to a cocktail party. A grey shift dress with a scarf, very bizarrely, pinned with a brooch from one shoulder. On her fingers were cocktail rings. I took this in and said a quiet WTF?

    She took me through the Domestic Violence questionnaire. I told her about my repeated sexual assaults, the threat to rape and the battery. I cried. Understandably.

    When I got my hands on the S7, I couldn’t believe my eyes. She does not mention any of the really serious allegations and minimises what I have said. She then says at one point I become ‘highly distressed’ but fails to mention it was because she took me through the damn questionnaire. She then further asserts that the DA is of no merit and it doesn’t serve to go into it further.

    What a fucking bitch.

    I, of course, talk to other agencies. I mention ‘S’ and they go quiet. They know, they know what she has done. How many other peoples’ lives has she destroyed?

    For her to remain in post she MUST be protected.

    I’m coming for you S. Beware.

    Beware all of you readers too. The entire agency is corrupt and not fit for purpose.

  5. Michelle says:

    Hi, can I ask a question? why does the ex narc in my life always want to speak to the children and see them as much as he can when he think I’m with someone new? I’ve noticed a pattern, he does not want to talk to me just them and texts to ask for more weekend time with them. For example he rang them most days in the school holidays last week when usually he does not call them at all and just sees them at weekend. He didn’t even call them over the New Years as he knew I was just with a friend. Am I right in thinking he is doing this because he does not want another’s mans influence on “his” extensions? Or is he jealous I get to spend the whole week with them while he is playing happy families with his girlfriend & her son (which he will hate of course) why is he so bothered about the children when his primary source is providing all his needs? Does he actually care about them somewhere deep inside? My first narc could not have cared any less about seeing our son and was terrible financially to the point where he would fretten to leave the country if I contacted cms. Sorry know this is lengthy.. TIA

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This requires additional information and is a matter best suited to consultation.

      1. Michelle says:

        Yes I will thank you

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

  6. Bekah B says:

    “The needs of the children do not ever come before our needs.”
    “We have no sense of responsibility or obligation to children.”
    “Their emotional needs, education, safety etc. are irrelevant to us.”
    “We regard obligations as beneath us, we have no sense of accountability, our sense of entitlement means we can do as we please, our lack of guilt or conscience means there is no mechanism causing us to adopt an alternative stance.”
    “Attempting to curtail our involvement with the children is seen as a criticism to us, irrespective of how morally and factually correct your action may be.”
    “Remember, we are not interested in the children per se but how they as appliances can serve us.”

    These are my takeaways from this article and relevant to my situation with my daughter’s father now.. I believe he is less involved in her life now because we are no longer in the Formal Relationship and she is only a baby, meaning there is a lot of responsibility to take care of her that he has little patience for (without my help)..

    The entirety of this article will prove invaluable as my daughter and other child grow up over the years and have the narcissist to deal with as a father..

  7. foolme1time says:

    I applaud Dragon Warrior and you also Renarde! 👏👏👏😘😘

    1. Renarde says:

      Thank You my lovely!

      1. foolme1time says:

        Anytime beautiful lady!😘

  8. Renarde says:

    I have to pop on here to share this with you all something utterly miraculous and something incredibly sad. Also to give insight into how a MR’er operates.

    As most know, matters are dire. I have just been given hope and that was the one thing I didn’t have. I am also the proudest mother in the world right now. My daughter is an empath. She is torn and very conflicted and she is in great pain. Currently, I am painted black pretty much everywhere due to smears that are years if not decades old. The ex is white. I am blacker than black. If my daughter was to follow the narrative, she would have every right to be incredibly angry with me and lash out. Repeatedly. I know I would if I were in her position. She has just been given some incredibly hurtful news. What does she do? She calmly asserts her boundaries. She does not get angry despite the great pain she must be in. God, that takes enormous strength, insight and courage. Love too. Love for us both. Despite everything.

    I call her the Dragon Warrior and by God she is. She could have chosen to wound me deeply and she did not. I am the proudest mummy in the world for her showing enormous strength of character despite everything.

    It means something else too. That bastard deliberately made her cry. A grown man made a little girl cry for fuel and to further paint me black. He. Made. Her. Cry.

    How many times has HG told us that is the jackpot and also how many times that it is the easiest thing in the world to keep silent? He could have chosen to do that; to protect her. He did not.

    So yes, gasp in awe at the ‘work in the moment’ mindset of the unaware N, marvel at their sheer stupidity, get angry at the fact a grown man could do that to a defenceless child. He will continue to do that as long as he is able to.

    I’m running pretty much all of the emotional spectrum right now but at least I am aware of it even if I cannot stop those emotions. SN beckoned extraordinarily temptingly just now but I allowed it to fade. I’m not in a place where I can deal with howlback. I ask narcsite to consider this. If I had not been weaponised, what would the outcome of this horrible situation have been? It could have gone one way or the other given the state of matters but it went the third way. The better way.

    This is why weaponisation is so very important because it is now preventing further pain. I cannot stop the pain for anyone caught up in it but I can reduce it; minimise it. How grateful am I for HG’s work right now? The chief arbitors of all abuse and yet, one of them is actively preventing it AND minimising harm. Not just to my immediate family but to everyone who is caught up in this panjadram.

    Please stand with me fellow empaths and applaud the courage of one of our kind under almost unbelievable pain and pressure and at an age where she is not equipped to deal with this.

    Please applaud the Dragon Warrior. The world is a better place for her being in it.

  9. Mollyb says:

    Courts want the children to be with the parent that shows them what they have been thriving on …such as school , good grades , consistancy , support , talking with teachers …concern for their future as future adults in the community. Demonstrate you are the parent that physically does this …that you see your children as individual souls and future mothers and fathers in the community . That their well being and comfort and life is the most important to you as a parent ….demonstrate these acts !

    Don’t just recite words ….. Do! ,be able to have teachers and neighbors , family be your witnesses if necessary . Don’t allow the narc to penetrate these places alone….you need to physically go behind him and demonstrate calmness …peace , not craziness . It’s hard but when he’s gone getting his fuel ….work , bars , driving like an idiot , yelling , don’t play that game . Let him go elsewhere …he will be seen acting like a shit …by some. He will leave on trips , he will work late …unnessarily , he will act boastful and be seen flirting etc . You need to stand back and let him hurt himself .

    1. WhoCares says:

      Mollyb,

      “Demonstrate you are the parent that physically does this …that you see your children as individual souls and future mothers and fathers in the community . That their well being and comfort and life is the most important to you as a parent ….demonstrate these acts !

      Don’t just recite words ….. Do!”

      These are excellent words; the narc may ‘recite’ similar things but his actions will demonstrate otherwise.

  10. April says:

    Thank you so much for this. I so often feel as if I will lose my mind because no one sees what he does, including my children. Only I see it, therefore it isn’t real. So often when I read about narcissism, I read about women who cannot leave the relationship. I have had no trouble at all leaving the relationship and not ever looking back. My trouble has always been that I have to co-parent with him. I have done well in that I nearly always ignore his provocative messages to me and the things he does with the children that are obviously done just to upset me. Reading this post has helped to remind me that I am not crazy and has given me support that I am doing the right thing. My biggest fear, though is that he moves on from me as a fuel source, to my daughter who is now nearly an adult. I’d rather be the fuel source so that she doesn’t have to be because I know what I am dealing with and she does not yet. Anyway, thank you again for posting this. I am printing it right now …

    1. Renarde says:

      You are not going crazy – it’s the world that is. Well done on you getting a grasp of your ET and ER. That’s amazing.

      You need to weaponise your daughter but it wont be easy. She will rail against any attempt to rightly paint her father black. I suggest that rather than telling her EXACTLY what’s in your head, you gently lead her to narcsite and the books. Let her make her own mind up.

      She will tumble to it eventually.

      I’m sorry you have experienced this.

  11. kathy0720 says:

    Love this. I was emotionless (I think) in my response to my soon to be ex husband’s latest ploy when I told him we would communicate by proxy as assigned by the legal system. He accused me of colluding on real estate matters with an appraiser to diminish his gain. I simply said it appeared he would prefer to be absolved of communicating with someone he felt was committing criminal acts. It was short and simple and to the point. Maybe not yet “perfect” but it was at least okay compared to where I was six months ago without you. I posted the link to this article in several appropriate venues for consumption. I appreciate you to the ends of the earth. I’ll gladly send you the children for a lovely LONG visit!

  12. Kristin says:

    The way you describe these behaviors and tactics is perfect- “the control is not exerted for the benefit of the child but is only done to establish control” I see this playing out daily at our house. He also doesn’t listen, change, or cooperate about the simplest things as you explain. I was driving myself fucking crazy until I was able to see that my efforts in improving these areas were futile.

    1. April says:

      At least you see the futility now. That has helped to give me so much peace and I wish the same for you. It is maddening.

      1. Kristin says:

        Thank you so much, I am happy for you too! It’s nice to hear from someone who understands.

  13. marinathemermaid3 says:

    Hi H.G. I just recently spoke with my ex narc and got him to tell me that his mother was “on the spectrum ” of autism and his brother was diagnosed as a “high functioning autistic “. Do you know of any connection between autism and NPD?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is not something I have looked at MTM3.

    2. Renarde says:

      There is no connection Mermaid. It is a guise that some narcs use to hide behind to shield their malignant behaviours.

      I know one woman who is very intelligent, empathic and is continually picking up the strain from her arsewipe of a narc MR husband. Poor woman.

  14. Renarde says:

    Extremely wise words that I needed to hear tonight. Thank you HG.

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