Attachment Is The Seat Of Misery


This is a capricious, arbitrary and hostile world. It must be brought to heel, tamed and subjected to the exertion of control. My control.

This is why I must cause every appliance that I come across to become attached to me. From my next door neighbour who I say hello to and exchange banal pleasantries with for the sake of my façade (even though I would readily drive a rusty meat hook through his malformed cranium if he tells me again about the refurbishment details of his latest property acquisition) through to my friends who join me for drinks on a Friday evening through to the latest girlfriend that I parade, all of them must be attached to me.

The creation of my construct is the device which causes these individuals to become attached to me. That magnificent edifice which is created from the mirrors which I show towards those whose paths I cross. Make the ticket inspector smile on the train by supporting him dealing with a obstreperous teenage passenger, encourage a friend in his plans to lose weight, show that prospective IPPS her own hopes and desires so she begins to fall in love. All of that is the work of the construct which is designed to draw each and every source – from the tertiary through to the ever-so-crucial Intimate Partner Primary Source – to me and cause them to attach to me.

Whether the barista thinks I am a pleasant and loyal customer, a junior colleague considers me an inspirational boss, the lady I pass every other day whilst out running gives me a smile of acknowledgement and admiration, whether a friend considers me someone he can turn to for advice, whether she falls hopelessly in love with me; there are thousands of different ways for these appliances to attach to me.

It might be a jealous co-worker who seethes at my arrogance, the nervous supplier who dreads my call demanding what is behind his company’s latest cock-up, the weeping cast off who was once the apple of my eye but is now a maggot-infested windfall, all of them remain attached to me.

It is through causing these appliances to be attached to me that I can exert control as I assimilate them into my world. They are mine to control, to utilise, to extract from and through this I can then control my environment. By controlling my environment I aim to minimise the traitorous ambush or the treacherous mutiny. Keeping everything in its place, subject to my control and functioning as I require it, means I drive forward and order is maintained.

Attachment is the key to achieving this. I have to draw you in, hook you, grip you, I have to bond you to me, bind you so you do not escape me, clamp you in place, tie you down and secure the attachment. I will give you the illusion of the golden period, I will lie to you, I will give you generosity, I will show you largesse, I will even exhibit some form of manufactured intimacy, kindness and support, the promise of fuel and the years of practised scrutiny enabling me to give you what you want so I secure your attachment.

Yet for all these fuel pipelines that are connected to me, for all of the bridges that have been built, the links which have been carefully constructed, they are all one-way. It is you being attached to me. I feel no attachment to you.

That is why I am so able to turn on the person that I supposedly love and watch as the tears trickle down the disbelieving face as I lambast her for wearing the wrong shade of red or turning up two minutes late. That is why I can lie between the silken thighs of another and promise her the world whilst you lie awake wondering where I am and praying that I have not been involved in a road accident. That is why I can assure you that you will be promoted by year end and in the next meeting offer it to somebody else instead. That is why I can decide not to turn up to the dinner party you have spent a month planning and go and watch a film elsewhere. That is why I can smash your grandmother’s watch with a ballpein hammer as you observe, in a fit of hysterics.

My lack of attachment allows me to disappoint, renege, cheat, lie, provoke, hurt, torture and abuse. It gives me fluidity, mobility and efficiency. I am not hampered by guilt, nor remorse or a sense of obligation. I form no attachment with you. I do not feel it.

You may ask me what I might think of those who I interact with and I can conjure up the tributes and platitudes in an instant:-

“John? Excellent worker, never lets the company down, a key member of the team.”

“She is a wonderful woman, I do not know what I would do without her. She is my world.”

“He is amazing. First name on the team sheet every week.”

“NarcSide Inc? Fucking brilliant. Use them. I did once. Never gone anywhere else.”

But for all of this I feel nothing by way of attachment. I bolt you on to me, but I will not attach to you. What does attachment bring? Nothing but misery. Look around and you will see the woe and pain that being attached brings for people.

You become attached to a pet dog which will die in 10 years’ time and you cry for the loss of your furry friend. Why? Why attach to something that is only going to leave you?

You are attached to your employer and show loyalty? What for? So they can bend you over and shaft you by making you redundant and show you the door without even a tub of lube to ease the pain of the experience?

You are attached to your house, but you have to sell it, or it burns down, or it is flooded, or someone breaks in and yet more pain is dumped on you.

You are attached to your friend and share everything with that person and then one day he is mowed down by an articulated lorry and is left nothing but a smear on the road. You are distraught, besides yourself with grief because of your attachment.

You attach yourself to a lover, a girlfriend, a husband, a partner only for them to cheat on you, to leave you for someone else, to shuffle off this mortal coil pumped full of morphine or grasping their chest as a heart attack takes them from you. Your world comes crashing in, you are shattered, besides yourself with grief and it is all because of your attachment.

You attach yourself to offspring only for them to disappoint you, leech from you, turn to an unsavoury lifestyle which embarrasses you and dismays you because you are attached to them. Or you are always worrying how they are getting on at school, will they secure that job, pass their driving test, find a good man or woman? Your feelings are put through the mill owing to this attachment.

Oh I know you will tell me that you gain so much from these attachments, love, happiness, support, understanding, companionship, joy, loyalty, a sense of achievement and more besides. I have heard it before, but I see over and over again the misery that always arises from these attachments. It is not worth it.

It is far better to never become attached in the first place. I cannot trust. How can I when I was given a salutary and compelling lesson that if you try to attach all you receive in return is rejection and misery. Better not to bother. Build the wall, dig the moat, put up the barriers, do not allow anybody in and in so doing you prevent these weakening attachments from occurring and you save yourself the inevitable, and it is always inevitable, misery that is waiting around the corner.

Yet for me, I do not even have to contemplate creating that tower or ensuring that the ditch is dug deep. I do not have to roll out the figurative barbed wire and electric fences to keep people out. This is all done for me because I do not know how to connect with someone. I have no idea how it is done.

I can attach them to me. That is easy. I have been doing it for as long as I can remember. A combination of brilliance, charm, magnetism, manipulation and the identification of those from the strong to the weak and back again who are the best for succumbing to being attached to me. I can bring that about through all of the various seduction techniques I have described before.

Yet for all of that power of attraction, which few can resist, from tertiary to secondary to primary source, I do not know how to form an emotional attachment with someone. I may align interests and outcomes and sense a mutuality of purpose but I feel nothing for these appliances. There is no bond. There is nothing attaching me to them. The emptiness within me, the void which I seek to fill with fuel from all those in my fuel matrix pervades my relationship with those in that matrix. I am hollow and that echoes in my relationships with all those around me.

Whatever it is that compels you to feel connected to somebody else, whatever you describe it as and I have heard people do so on many occasions, I remain unable to sense and experience it myself.

There is just nothing there.

Does this trouble me? No. I see the misery that comes with attachment and I see my inability to connect to anybody as an advantage so I am spared what happens to so many others.

The Creature had all of that and it can keep it.

I rose from the seat of misery and I found a new throne.


251 thoughts on “Attachment Is The Seat Of Misery

  1. Dorion says:

    I have a strong avoidant streak in my attachment style as well, but it is predominantly secure now, especially now in my more mature years. I did struggle with the avoidant style a lot in my youth… or more precise to say, my intimate partners struggled more than me. I do believe many narcs are avoidants… it just makes perfect sense. Does my pattern make me a narcissist? I don’t think so. I have been known to be commitment phobic, making up whole philosophies and world views to explain my behavior, but I have also been known to be the most loyal friend and work colleague under the right circumstances.

    What I find interesting about narcs and attachment: they often avoid but, at the same time, can be the most passionate and compulsive seekers of connection, to the extent that they try to erase boundaries completely. But then withdraw as soon as someone comes back with demands that they actually want that closeness, and with challenges as to why and how the narc cannot fulfill it. I think some psychoanalysts call this “disorganized attachment”.

  2. It Depends says:

    I can’t resist… Anybody care to play one last game before I go? For the intelligent 🤓 folks on the board… I know what I am. Tudor knows what I am. Do you? Am I a narcissist? Am I an empath? What school do you think I belong to? Curious,
    Sam I Am

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Readers have it worked out and don’t need to indulge you.

      1. It Depends says:

        Ya think? 🤣🤣🤣

        1. HG Tudor says:

          I know.

          Not bowed out yet? Stated you were doing so.

          1. It Depends says:

            Me: Sticking out my tongue. 👅 😛 👅

          2. E&L says:

            MILEY??? Is that you?

    2. NarcAngel says:

      A loaded diaper.

  3. It Depends says:

    I bow out out from this discussion, not because I am wrong but because it has turned into a typical narcissistic circular discussion complete with projection, blame-shifting, etc. and it has offset my usual ability to keep my emotional reactivity in check. I have said what I said, using clear logic and it is there for the wise to see and understand. Those who can’t see it or are too ingrained in their current beliefs to consider it, are not my concern. It was meant for those who have “eyes to see and ears to hear.” I’ll be back, one day….😎🤣😎. Don’t miss me too much, dear Tudor. You have plenty of ass-kissers at your beck and call.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for continuing to prove my point

      1. It Depends says:

        You are most welcome. 😎😼😎

  4. NarcAngel says:

    Kim e
    Ha! I only asked a valid question. If thats instigating we’re in trouble. Guess the answer is for you to stick around. I read you are/were going no contact. Proud of you for deciding you deserve better. I think so too.

  5. It Depends says:

    Narc Angel

    Does your research include gluteus maximus…Cotidiana oscula? You are such an ignorant bitch to kind people. Watching your Neanderthal musings is quite the comedy show. Nothing in the world like watching stupidity in action!!! 🤣🤣🤣. There, did I feed you a nice dollop of a”supply? Moron.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Keep digging.

      1. Oracle says:

        Mr. Tudor,
        I am probably going to go down in flames for this and be jumped on by the pack. Especially since my inalbity to keep up intellectually has been pointed out alreayd. It is your commitment to keeping the sight safe, i understand you do not want misinformation given, but it is not healthy for several to attack and bully one person is it? I am sorry, i see something i believe is wrong, i am standig up for that person. she may be wrong in view point, but it is not right to gang up on someone either. No it is not my business, but i have to live wtih me, knowing i did nothing.
        i am unsure if i will even check this comment as i already know who my attacker will be. I refuse to be her victim so i guess bring it. its wrong. Mr. Tudor your thoughts please?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. If a person comes here and makes an assertion which others disagree with, they are entitled to voice that disagreement.
          2. The readers here will respond in a fashion which is fair and constructive. Disagreements are common, however
          a. The majority of readers articulate their disagreement in constructive manner. For instance, SMH and me have disagreed in the past and forcefully but it was never done in an insulting manner;
          b. Some readers propound a view which is wrong and is an opinion which is on a poor foundation. I (and sometimes others) will correct that inaccuracy. I never do so impolitely. Many accept their misunderstanding graciously, or stand by their opinion but do so without being ill-mannered or ridiculous. Occasionally there are those who just cannot accept they are wrong and then exhibit a whole host of behaviours which speak for themselves and they behave in an ill-mannered, hostile and aggressive fashion with other people. If a person comes here and does that they can expect
          (i) That behaviour to be exhibited to demonstrate to readers the behaviour so they can use it to increase their knowledge and understanding; and
          (ii) For readers to ‘fight fire with fire’. I allow robust responses to unnecessary behaviour because the protagonist has invited it themselves AND why should people be silenced from responding to such bullying behaviour (bear in mind many of these readers have been bullied repeatedly and denied a voice).

          Nobody ever has voiced a sensible opinion here and then been jumped on by a mob. Why is that? Because the vast majority of readers here are sensible, courteous and constructive. The odd one comes here and causes a shitstorm and when they do, they can expect the prevailing majority to voice their displeasure and do so robustly – they are not being bullied, they are the bully.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Entirely the case and thank you for addressing that so eloquently. I understand people having a concern in that regard, but I would also encourage them to read ALL of the comments and exchanges to see why it has happened. There is usually a point where it becomes more than just disagreement. The fans are flamed (usually by the person claiming or appearing to be the victim) and it escalates, resulting in robust (as you put it) responses. Proper context cannot be acheived by reading just a few comments/responses.

          2. Oracle says:

            thank you. I over reacted then? I have no doubt. Thank you. I appreciate you clarifying and allowing me to understand from your perspective a bit. I agree now that you explained it this way.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome and your response further evidences the way that a reasonable individual would respond – analysis and reflection of the facts. I would not state you over-reacted but perhaps you had not appreciated the totality of the exchange and also understood more when I explained the context and the overarching policy adopted in this place.

    2. Twilight says:

      It Depends

      Did someone touch a nerve?

      Be careful your true colours are beginning to show.

    3. NarcAngel says:

      It Depends
      …aaaaand there it is. It was really only a matter of time. Your lack of control over a mere question regarding your research is excellent confirmation and amuses me.

      1. Mercy says:

        Hahaha NarcAngel I’m so impressed by how little effort you have to make to get a reaction like this. You literally don’t even have to be in a conversation to get a “fuck off”.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          I know right? I understand some people love to hate me and well……everyone needs a hobby. I’m happy to provide a platform for them to showcase their intellect and demonstrate their empathy. I’m a Super Empath that has withstood sustained abuse and laugh in the face of it. Do they really think they can hurt me? More importantly – why would they want to if they really are empaths? I just pity them.

          1. K says:

            This thread just keeps getting more and more interesting.

          2. Mercy says:

            K, I’m bummed that I don’t have time to read it all right now. I’m like a kid sitting at the window watching other kids play outside

          3. K says:

            Read the current comments and then work your way backwards so you can piece it all together in reverse that way you won’t miss the popcorn worthy moments.

          4. Mercy says:

            K, I just caught up. I think the most important thing I learned today was, when someone text me something amusing and I respond with “nice” I’m actually calling them ignorant. Who knew?

          5. K says:

            During devaluation with my MMRN, I used to say, “That’s nice.” (translation: I don’t give a fuck) That was contempt and I knew it…ha ha ha.

          6. Mercy says:

            Haha K, it’s the little things isn’t it?

          7. K says:

            Those little moments meant so much to me, such fond memories!

          8. Kim e says:

            NA. I am gone for not even 3 days and you are causing trouble already. I am so proud of you!!!

          9. Mercy says:

            NarcAngel, thats twice in recent weeks I’m just scrolling along merrily reading and BAM! NA gets slammed again and was barely in the convo. You have to be thinking wtf! You take it well.

    4. kiki says:

      Omg there really is no need for this level of bitchiness what the heck has happened here it wasn’t like this .
      I was berated for asking a mere question earlier by a poster, not by you by the way ,now Narc Angel is being verbally attacked .
      This is horrible .


      1. K says:

        It’s just a little Clash of The Titans action going on, I am making some popcorn if you want some.

        1. NarcAngel says:

          More like The Crumbling of the Clueless at the hand of the only Titan – HG. Green Eggs and Ham’s research has gone down like a fat kid on a seesaw lol.

          1. K says:

            Ha ha ha…some Titans are Greater while others just fall somewhere in the Middle.

    5. What happened in here??? We have Carrier Empaths boxing Co-Dependents in one ring, and Geyser Empaths dragging around Magnet Empaths in the other ring, with flares going off summoning more Super Novas to come quickly and help out, and there are masked Narcissists as the judges and referees keeping score… The Caretakers are unfortunately in a meeting right now, and the victim narcissists that only dropped buy to visit, are now cutting their own selves for attention amidst the mayhem! The Greater Elite Narcissists is weighing his possible need for some assistants to help run his kingdom, as he watches incompatible Compartments start to merge and fail. What in the world brought this all on in here! It is Unbelievable. Someone has surely lit the blue touch paper in here.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        Haha, I missed all that action. It’s no big deal and happens sporadically. They always flame out spectacularly. Not to worry.

        1. NarcAngel. “I am rolling on the floor laughing“ hahahaha A little humor never hurts. LOL. Now, I will resume my regularly scheduled reading of and listening to: H.G. Tudor`s marvelous works.

      2. Kim e says:

        As long as the popcorn and rum holds out I am just gonna watch the show…….

      3. K says:

        Ha ha ha…there is never a dull moment on narcsite!

        1. Lisa says:

          Especially not if Kim’s bringing rum!

          1. K says:

            Ha ha ha…a shot of rum sounds perfect!

      4. It Depends says:

        Too funny!!!🤣🤣🤣

      5. Crash Out says:

        Ignorance astounds me with its cluelessness.

      6. Oracle says:

        I am still laughing reading this. You broke it down like we were watching a pro fight. very quick witted and funny

    6. Claire says:

      People with certain flavors of character pathology (yes I have my own) are the ones that routinely act like jerk offs on a blog like this or create this much debate/discord by lacking a knowledge of “when to stop” by observing social cues or simply not caring. From the little I observed you don’t know how to use the term research properly. Not actual research—you are just reading things likely by means of google. Actual research requires a scholarly approach and etiquette so I never say on here or elsewhere that I’ve done “research.” Real research requires use of particular databases (for various genres of academic interest) and statistical analysis. I’m generally always polite when people improperly identify their “research” as research because it is merely a pursuit to acquire knowledge which is what I do here.
      Real “research” is taken so seriously that I’ve been emailed to ensure my credentials were properly stated on a poster for an academic presentation. Yes. I’m being a dick because I think referring to anyone as a moron is rude and I’m bored so there you go. Yes, I know about real research and it’s fairly useless in improving my life.

      1. Claire says:

        Oh and this is for the depends person.. I’m not sure it falls in the list as I’m not on the app..

      2. HG Tudor says:

        Well stated.

    7. It Depends says:

      I do not apologize for what I said, the jest of it is truth. I do slightly apologize for how I worded it. Empaths, margaritas and responding to insults from abusive people are never a good mix. (Note to self: Grandma said to, “just ignore them.”)

    8. It Depends says:

      And…I find it a pity how some people can throughly study Tudor’s work and STILL not be able to tell the difference between an empath not in “control” of their negative emotions and a person who lacks empathy. Buy their books 📚, send them to school and all they do is eat the pages. 🙄

      1. NarcAngel says:

        It Depends
        Well try reading them instead of eating the pages. You may better be able to digest the material.

        1. Kim e says:

          NA ROFLMAO. I always thought you were such a helpful person. Always there for the other person with suggestions to make their world brighter and help them through their day. Once again you have proven me right. Brings a tear of pride to eye😂😂😂😂😂

      2. Kiki says:

        I’m not sure why there is agro
        I hate to feel a ganging up atmosphere. it depends you are entitled to your opinion but it’s best not to insult other posters
        We all have our own issues and we all need support from each other here
        I hope you work things out and work positively. 🙂

  6. Mercy says:

    FYC, thank you again. You are right about applying what we’ve learned here. I appreciate HGs insistence on using logic because it has given me peace when I thought I’d never be able to feel normal again.

    1. FYC says:

      Mercy, Thank you. I have been haunted by your theory. Not because it was contrary to the theory of false/true self, but because regardless of extant theory, there is something you illuminated that is valid. I read a bit trying to see what science could say about the dynamic of giving too much/staying too long. It opens up a larger conversation beyond behavioral science that is worth exploration. As soon as I wrap my mind around it I will share the results of that effort with you (and everyone obviously). I am far from having all the answers, but I am hungry to learn what I can. Thank you for sharing. From my point of view, you are better than whatever ‘normal’ is.

      1. Mercy says:

        FYC, I really appreciate you letting me know because I can’t shake it either. I read your response to my last comment with the list of 1 through 6. I was on the edge of my seat thinking something would click. My first thought was “is there a #7?”. They are all valid but I don’t feel like I fit in those categories. Sometimes I have to let thoughts go for fear that I’m over thinking things and missing something simple in front of me. I will be interested to know of you find something. Thanks again.

        1. FYC says:

          Mercy, It is getting very interesting and has dovetailed into my current research on various studies and theories related to empathy. It might take a week more to finish as it is a large body of information.

          [Note: Though I have explained this before, since research is used loosely in conversational application as evidenced on this thread, I am referring to published research in scholarly journals and theories presented in textbooks, as well as meta analyses of extant theory in various disciplines. When I comment, I’ll include citations and provide links if requested. (I am logging them this time). I am only an interested party, not an expert here.]

          Thank you for inspiring me to question in a new direction, I am grateful. Better questions lead to better answers. I’ll get back to you on this soon.

          1. Mercy says:

            FYC, I’m just happy you’re inspired! Nothing bad can come out of finding additional information. As far as your references , most of us know that your research is far more extensive than Quora and Wikipedia. I understand wanting to clarify to those that don’t know though.

  7. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    It Depends. When the child tell his emphatic parents, that he or she does not want to talk to Uncle Bill or go to the neighbors house any more, and the parents asks why, and the child is not able to explain, or says Uncle Bill is bad or the neighbors are bad, but can not explain why, the emphatic parents tell the child to not say that again, because it is Nonsense. And that Uncle Bob and the neighbors are good, and to be sure to hug Uncle Bill or the neighbors whenever they all are together. However, Uncle Bill or the neighbors are abusing that child, emotionally, verbally, and/or physically, and the child can not express it because it is being done in a way that the child can not put into words. So it continues. Also, the child is aware that bringing up the abuse is called nonsense, and that it upset his parents, and caused him or her to be chastised and to be told that good people were treating him is such a manner, and so the child does not bring it up again, or other abuses that brings on that same scenario the child believes will be called, nonsense. ~~~~But, the child is in terrific pain. Passed a threshold of endurance And, the child can not hide under the bed or shut the door to his room every day to protect himself in life. So the child hides within his or herself. Another part of the child`s mind or psyche or ego, or whatever it is called these days, steps up and fights for the child. A survival instinct To survive and keep living. This persona is like a superhero/heroine. With mental blocking mechanisms to take on Uncle Bill and the Neighbor and others by communicating with the child during the abuse, by mentally covering and blocking and soothing the child about what is being done or said to the child. ~~~~This superpower grows and develops with the sole purpose of protecting that hiding child, basically forever. And the child hides behind that blocking mechanism and does not come out. So the child grows up in a fractured way, with a hidden self, protected by a superhero self that has chosen extra powers of the mind in order to survive. To observe and mimic and develop in strength and aptitude and understanding of people. That is the power that the survival mind of the child chose to create a protecting personna that diverted painful actions away from the child, because the child could not take any more trauma, whether it was verbal, mental, physical, or combinations of such. That protective personna learned each day more and more how to to fight off any enemies that threatened the hiding child. The mind chose the power of a protective persona. And honed it.

    1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      It Depends. I want to add to the above, that the child feels horribly betrayed when his emphatic parents pushes him or her to keep interacting with the abusers. So the child`s Superhero/heroine persona going forward, also protects the child from any and all enemies that threaten to betray the child like the parents did, by blocking and removing anyone and everyone, mentally, whenever they showe signs of not loving, supporting, respecting, protecting etc. the child, just like the parents failed the child, and blocking them and removing them physically, when the child grows up. And the Superhero personna constantly looks for healthy family such types for a good and stable life. And potential others are put on standby, as a fail safe , remembering the parental failure that is always on the Superhero`s mind. And just like how one normally can not rid oneself of one`s family, likewise all the rejected are still in the sights of the child`s Superhero personna, for whenever it seems possible to obtain non enemy behaviour and support from them, when the Superhero personna needs them, when any failures occur. Because no one can stand alone forever, even a Superhero personna. It is a family affair.

      1. It Depends. These children needed Justice! To witness with their own eyes the perpetrator/s pay! To be punished! They never received it. They never witnessed it. They never received closure with whatever happened. No justice, no closure, no defense, and they had no way to defend themselves. They were never avenged. No one paid for what was done. That the child knows of and can understand, anyway. And all this leads to malice, the need for revenge, to be avenged, the need for justice. Extreme self protection they attempt now, to protect themselves from such a horrible betrayal, and any other horrible form of betrayal from ever happening again. They will stop any sign of disrespect from progressing, in a heartbeat now to head of what happened, from ever happening again in any manner whatsoever. Hyper vigilant about it. And, I feel it. Pure and simple. I am sorry about it. I apologize on behalf of all those that should be apologizing to all these children of many types of abuse. Amen.

    2. Claire says:

      Well stated.

  8. It Depends says:


    ………”You are implying that the Empathic parents are omnipotent. Just because they know what a healthy environment is, does not mean they can always provide a wonderful environment for their offspring, or even be aware that they have failed to do so, for the child in question………”

    No, I am not intending to imply that empathetic parents are omnipotent. I do not propose that empaths always provide a wonderful, healthy environment for their offspring. I have not intentionally proposed the position that all empaths are aware of what a healthy environment looks like. Nor have I intended to imply that an empath is incapable of creating an unhealthy environment out of ignorance. Don’t know how I am being misread here so I don’t know an appropriate way to respond to our apparent miscommunication.

    1. You said it here: `Let’s assume for a moment that I am intelligent and empathetic enough to know the difference between a good environment and a bad one. ( although I know “some” will disagree with this assumption 🤣🤣🤣). How do you explain the narcissists that come from a wonderful environment? Yes, they exist. The parents just live, shall we say, as quietly as possible, out of fear, usually for being blamed for the creation of the little monster. And it’s siblings just learn to avoid the walking disaster.“ And I replied: ………”You are implying that the Empathic parents are omnipotent. Just because they know what a healthy environment is, does not mean they can always provide a wonderful environment for their offspring, or even be aware that they have failed to do so, for the child in question………”

      1. It Depends says:

        I agree.

      2. It Depends says:

        Except for the “implying” part…

  9. It Depends says:


    Your post assumes I don’t know how to differentiate between narcissist traits and full blown narcissism. You are most welcome to that opinion. I do however, disagree with it. I assure you, I know the difference. Some take me a longer amount of time to flush out and decide definitively upon but I do understand and recognize the difference.

    1. Lisa says:

      Lisa, me Lisa?

      Which post? I have a few here and don’t recall making that assumption.

  10. EmP says:

    This is one of the most profound and dramatic pieces of writing HG has ever created, in my opinion.

    It gives you a lot to think about. It makes you realise how unfair life is; how abused children do the best they can to survive – and how that impacts what they become as adults.

    It is such a shame that once narcissism has taken possession of someone, a healthy sense of self cannot be created and love can neither be given nor received by these people. Their heart just shrivels and dies, at a very early age. This is TERRIBLE. Society as a whole should be ashamed of itself for not protecting its children.

    I do feel sorry for HG’s victims, but I understand (from a theoretical point of view) why he felt the urge to torture and victimise.

    I do not condone the abuse of course, yet I feel sorry for little HG, who would have deserved unconditional love, support and protection and didn’t get any of that.

    How nice would it be if one day we could be able to re-write people’s history to some extent. Even implanting (good) false memories in the brain…

    1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      EmP. I agree. I did not choose as a child to be either a narcissist or an empath. When I was a child, in first grade, 6 years old, I was told that I was kind. I did not know what it meant. A few years ago, on Facebook, a high school classmate found me to tell me about a reunion and he told me that he remembered me, because I was so kind. I do not remember being kind in high school. Although I know now, in general what it means. As a young adult, I decided to be more kind and to fight to be kind, when I noticed so many women were becoming so bitter from dating. This past December, I received a review for something I did for some children and part of the review said that the children loved me and also part of the review said that I was very kind. Unbelievable! I was puzzled to see that word again! I do not know how I was kind to the children, during the activity. Actually, some of the children made me nervous. So, I say, we have a predisposition first, and then later on, we can try to add to it or dampen it. But, we never chose our predisposition. And, I never have and I still would not describe myself as kind, but the word has followed me since my early childhood.

      1. EmP says:

        Princess SE, whatever empathy-genes I have, I owe them to my maternal grandmother (the only empath in the family). I have also been told by HG that I have been ‘imprinted’ by my narcissistic parents. I like to think that I did not succumb, however. Having been raised by them caused the development of certain traits and defense mechanisms but I believe I am a separate person. Not a mere extension of my mother and father *shudders*
        I am astonished by the level of false information out there, by the way. And ignorance. People getting PhDs and not having a clue what they’re talking about. Criminologists, psychologists. Big names.
        Also, the level of indoctrination we are all subjected to is unbelievable. I am now starting to see it. I’ve been on this blog for over a year and every week I discover something new. Worth sticking with HG everyone.

        1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          EmP. I believe that we have natural tendencies and that we are influenced by our parents and our environment. I do not think we choose our innate tendencies at all. As children our national tendencies are impacted, and as we approach adulthood, we add to or dampen what has impacted us and what we observe to be our personality or tendencies, the best way we can according to our individual understanding of the world, utilizing whatever cognitive abilities, we possess, in order to survive. We are not creatures that are able to survive on our own from birth without nurture. So there is blame to go around, from everyone. Even if it is not politically correct to blame, these days.

      2. NarcAngel says:

        Do you think we don’t think of ourselves as kind because that implies something extra and kind is just a natural state for empaths? I don’t even look particularly kind (I have resting bitch face) yet I am approached for assistance in many situations. I just returned from errands and stopped into a coffee shop. While in line (many people all ages about me) I feel tap tap on my arm. Turn to find a tiny old man who says: would you help me? I ask what with. He responds with: my wife has had an accident and shes in the washroom. She needs this (as he hands me a brown paper bag that I presume holds clean bloomers lol). I sigh and leave my place in line and he pats my arm and says: thanks love. Her name is Ruthie. Tell her I’ll be right out here waiting. (So cute). Story of my life. Why me with all of the people around me? And it happens often. Kindness is apparently something they sense about us and that we can’t hide despite our feeling that we are not particularly by our own definition.

        1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          Narc Angel. I am not sure why the word bothers me a bit. I may also have a bit of jealousy of watching the success of people that are not kind or would never be called kind. It is difficult to be kind and highly successful. Yet, I appreciate the people that are not so kind that do the good work in many organizations and in many areas that I could not do. And yet, that is also a form of kindness from them, to do the things that others need, but can not do themselves. So, I have not worked it all out yet. But, I do not want to be called kind, especially in hearing range of a group of people that I am interacting with. I think it could make me a target, I fear. But, the word follows me.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Ah. I understand you to be saying that you see it as something of a barrier or that can be used against you in certain situations.

          2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            NarcAngel. I thought about it more today, and I believe the problem is that the word (1) Kind reminds me of the word (2) Nice, and Nice has a negative original meaning and connotation of being ignorant: Origin of Nice:

            Middle English (in the sense ‘stupid’): from Old French, from Latin nescius ‘ignorant’, from nescire ‘not know’. Other early senses included ‘coy, reserved’, giving rise to ‘fastidious, scrupulous’: this led both to the sense ‘fine, subtle’ (regarded by some as the ‘correct’ sense), and to the main current senses. And, NA, I looked up the word nice in various other dictionaries as well just now, and it pretty much meant ignorant, then oddly took on a more positive connotation during some period in history that was discussed, and the word is described as odd in the way it changed so much in how people think of its meaning.. ~~~~~NEXT: So, NarcAngel I just looked up the word kind and it is defined in a positive manner of being genial: ORIGIN OF KIND1
            before 900; Middle English kind(e) natural, well-disposed, Old English gecynde natural, genial1. See kind2. I looked the word kind up in other dictionaries and it always seems to have had and still has positive connotations. So, even though I know for sure now that being kind does not have any negative connotations, I still am not sure if people are mistaking kind for nice with a latent understanding that nice means ignorant, or at least unaware. ~~~~~But, I am not nice. I will do what it takes when I have to. Something that I never understood about myself, and something that surprises people, at times, that know me. But, I felt more understanding about myself when I read one of HG Tudors works on SuperNova: Sometimes one has to act in a manner that seems like being out of character to oneself and to others, to get the right thing done. Then one settles back into the familiar character. ~~~~~So, perhaps, I am kind. Meaning genial, etc. I will accept that. But I still am uneasy about what people actually mean when they describe me as such. And still it is said that: nice people finish last. In short, I may be kind, but I am not nice.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            The progression of the word was interesting to read. You are right that some people use it as a negative to describe people that they think are weak or can be run roughshod over (as in she’s too nice to acheive success), but I think it’s not intended as that the majority of the time. Kind is…well…kinder, lol, in it’s use and interpretation than nice I think.

            When you say you are not nice and will do what it takes when you have to, and that you sometimes have to act out of character to get things done and then settle back, I take that not as not being nice, but in having drive. You are respecting yourself and your position in asserting that is your truth and not allowing it to be disregarded. One can do that using their narcissistic traits such as pride, honesty, truth-seeking etc and still be considered nice and kind. That is my perspective anyway and may differ from yours. Was there a specific incident that you recall that caused you to relate kind or nice to negativity or as a weakness by others? I don’t think that is the general perception of those words but that doesn’t mean you associate it as such all the same.

          4. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            NarcAngel. I remember when I was six years old at a Parent/Child PTA meeting, and the teacher told my parents that: your daughter is very kind. I remember thinking to myself, that has nothing to do with my grades, because I had earned straight A`s. And I remember my parents not responding either. We all were just quiet for a moment. That`s about it. So, the word stood out in my mind, as an unusual sort of word. lol

          5. NarcAngel says:

            It’s hard to say because of course I wasn’t there, but how I read the Teacher’s comment was that she placed great value on that in addition to your academic ability. That she may have thought that though your grades were reflective of your intelligence, that she thought it even more important that it be acknowledged that you were also kind, which cannot so easily be measured. It is usually also something that parents like to hear as it is indicative of how their children are viewed by people outside of their family environment. It sounds to me as a positive and something to be proud of. Most would agree that the world could use more kindness. That’s just my take.

          6. Mercy says:

            PSE, I’m sorry to jump in on your convo but I had a thought. One of my daughters was a very good student with straight A’s. Her parent/teacher conferences were quite boring because the teacher never had anything to say regarding improvements she could make. The only reason I went to them was because she would get extra credit (incentive to get parents to participate). I knew my child got good grade because I saw the report cards. It was the other things that I didn’t know that I was interested in. Things like how she interacts with other students, if she was respectful to adults, does she share or is she a bully, does she speak in front if the class or is she shy. Is she kind? These are all things that a parent can’t monitor when the child isn’t with us. To hear a teacher say that my child is kind is as good as seeing a report card with strait As.

          7. shesaw says:

            PSE, that was a genial read, about the origin of the words. I love language and languages and it gave me joy to read your explanation.

            I suppose the word ‘nice’ has a connotation of being a pushover which possibly explains your aversion against it. (I bet narcissists value ‘niceness’ in a person, too)

            Kindness is a treasure. Don’t let that be taken away from you. Kindness is matured niceness!

        2. Narc noob says:

          That’s cute NA! So funny. I usually get asked to retrieve something off the top shelf at the grocery store. Must be something about us that says *pick me*. Not that we mind.

          1. Lisa says:

            At 5’3 that’s something that’s never happened to me 😀

          2. NarcAngel says:


            It really was cute to see what appeared to be the result of lifelong commitment. I could be projecting though – they could have met on Swinging Seniors just last week.

          3. shesaw. I was enjoying your response until you typed that last word in your last sentence! Why, oh Why? Why? Why??????????? 🙂

          4. shesaw says:

            Lol PSE, embrace it!!

        3. NarcAngel. Perhaps, because, I did not like her. And, I did not like her because she stared at me too much, from what I remember feeling. And, I never mentioned it, because I probably would not have been able to put that into a clear complaint, or even to consider doing so, or even think that her behaviour was something to discuss/complain about to my parents. And, I have absolutely no idea why she stared, and I can not guess why she stared at me, at all. And I do not ever think of her. I only remembered her, because of EmP`s post, about people having an initial innate disposition. And, I think my innate disposition includes being kind, because I have been described as such, many many times in my life. The first time that I remember is by that Teacher. And, being kind is not a bad thing, kind as defined by a common definition, of being genial. So, I agree with you.

  11. It Depends says:

    As far as any of my writings being “dangerous”……Most empathic people encounter narcissists on a daily basis. All interactions with people who have no empathy carries a degree of danger, some more than others. Deciding “how” to deal with that danger is called risk management. I write, to the best of my ability to give others the perspectives of my experiences and deep study of narcissism. What others choose to do with that information, even the choice to consider my outlook, is up to them. I don’t believe any opinion or experience is without meaning, even a wrong idea to begin with can lead to a correct one, such as using a process of elimination. Information and experiences are not dangerous. It’s what a person chooses to “do” or not do with that information that can land a person in hot water. In the end, people must choose for themselves, how they execute their personal risk management strategies with their own reasoning and logical mind.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No. Whilst you are entitled to state an opinion, what you suggest is consistently wrong and must be corrected for the purposes of accuracy.

      1. NarcAngel says:


        I do believe It Depends made a valid point here in saying:

        “even a wrong idea to begin with can lead to a correct one, such as process of elimination.”

        Quite right. Eliminating the opinion of It Depends CAN lead to a correct one.

        Just wanted to ensure they get their fuel…er…I mean due.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Ha ha, indeed NA.

    2. It Depends. I am perceiving that you have great reluctance in believing that Empaths have anything at all to to do with the existence of Narcissism. And, that many Empaths believe that they are blameless, as well. If that is the case, and these beliefs are prevalent, and since most practitioners in the field consider themselves Empaths, then I am afraid that a lot of harm will be done to all those that seek growth from many practitioners in the field.

      1. It Depends says:

        ………”It Depends. I am perceiving that you have great reluctance in believing that Empaths have anything at all to to do with the existence of Narcissism. And, that many Empaths believe that they are blameless, as well. If that is the case, and these beliefs are prevalent, and since most practitioners in the field consider themselves Empaths, then I am afraid that a lot of harm will be done to all those that seek growth from many practitioners in the field………”

        Correct. I believe narcissists are a product of their own choices, not their environments. I also believe empaths are also a product of their own choices, not their environments. We are kinda similar creatures, one on the evil side of the coin, one on the good. And yes, I am aware that this goes against the “opinions” of the “experts.”

        Correct. Yes, I believe empaths are blameless in the creation of narcissists and narcissism.

        Prevalence on beliefs, I’ll reserve comment on.

        Your statement, “most practitioners in the field of (psychology) “consider” themselves empaths…” is an apt description. Most (especially the ones with the most influence of the DSM manual and the most influential in the industry) practitioners are not empaths despite what they consider themselves to be, in my opinion. Many are down right idiots who make a good living doing nothing productive.

        While there are some very good and empathic practitioners in the field of psychology, they are the exception to the rule. And yes, there is ALOT of harm done to those who seek growth from the incompetent, lazy and ignorant people who abound within the psychological community.

        As much as I hate to admit it, Tudor has done more good for empaths than most practitioners in the psych community.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Whilst your compliment is appreciated, you are repeatedly wrong in suggesting that narcissists have a choice in their creation. They do not. This formation occurs in the early years of life and arises from a genetic predisposition allied with a lack of control environment. How many three year olds do you know who can exercise any control, any choice over their environment so as to prevent its impact on them? The narcissist in formation does not think “Oh good, I know I will become a narcissist, that seems like a good idea.” It happens without choice being involved. Most narcissists then do not know what they are so then how can they make a choice? They genuinely believe they are the victim and the narcissism blinds them to their behaviour either being wrong at all or they recognise some people see it as wrong but they regard their behaviour as always justified. They have no choice in their creation, they have no choice thereafter because their narcissism is designed to remove the issue of choice because it has to so the self-defence mechanism is effective. Greaters have no choice in formation either, although owing to awareness, we recognise we bolted on certain behaviours and determine our later choices to be effective ones and in effect the only choice which has to be made.

          You allude to your research (in other posts) although you have not produced this. You state a belief, which you are entitled to do, but understand this, your belief is wrong and ill-founded. You are propounding inaccurate information and you repeatedly fail to provide any credible evidence in support of your incorrect assertions. Indeed, you repeatedly contradict yourself as another reader (and I) pointed out to you. You are of course welcome to comment but you are repeatedly wrong. The evidence and logic demonstrates this. You are unable to see this and instead of being able to embrace the logic and evidence you throw around comments with regard to word salad and attacking the narcissistic pillars, deflecting in crystal clear style from the fact you are wrong.

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Oh there’s logic and evidence aplenty. Just none of it is coming from It Depends.

        2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          It Depends. I am so glad that you see how rigid your beliefs are. At least we have that out in the open. It is a good start. Your conclusion is correct, but getting there is full of a lot prejudices and biases on behalf of empaths. I once took a physics or trigonometry class, I do not remember which, but I remember the problems had long steps towards the solution, and we were graded every step of the way, and lost points whenever our calculations were incorrect, all the way until we reached a solution. The solution was almost the least important score, but it was how we arrived at the conclusion that was important. Our understanding of each step. I wonder why do you hate to admit and to whom do you hate to admit: that HG Tudor has done more good than most practitioners in the psych community: it is because he does not fit into your box of strong beliefs and theories. Cognitive Dissonance? That is worrisome. I see what empaths discuss and I see what narcissists discuss. And although it is safe to say in these parts, with impunity, that narcissists do wrong, according to societal norms, it is still clear to see that empaths do wrong as well, according to societal norms. And I still want to know: If you think pathological narcissism is a choice, why do narcissists exhibit that peculiar behavior that is similar to other narcissists, wherever they are diagnosed. How do you explain such a striking and odd and strange behavioral feature of narcissism? Add to this question, we see the same strange behaviors of narcissists that do not even know they are narcissists?How can this all be choice? How is this explained?

    3. It Depends. You say that ALL Narcissists exercise choice on one post and then say they utilize instinct on another post. And then say they have genetic disposition on another post, or are influenced by someone with the genetic disposition? How do you reconcile these contradictions. Also, according to your hypothesis, that Narcissist chooses to be, how did the very first Narcissist enter into existence? And why do they all have similar peculiar pathology, no matter where they are from? All this together seems a bit messy.

      1. It Depends says:

        I believe I have set out my points with clear linear logic. I consider this discussion to be reaching the realm of having a circular discussion with someone. However, in case I have been remiss in explaining my points properly, I will give it one one shot.

        Yes, I believe as very young children, narcissists make a CHOICE to embrace power and control over things like love, empathy and selflessness. Once those particular CHOICES are made over a period of time, it rewrites the brain and it’s chemistry and then their actions are NO LONGER based on choices with regard to empathy. They have killed their empathetic conscience and it is organically replaced with a new system, devoid of all empathy. Bible readers may recall the New Testament speaking of people who had seared their conscience with a hot iron. An apt analogy, in my opinion. As is the concept of a reprobate mind.

        I believe there is a genetic component. Genetically, I believe ( and admit that this understanding is in it’s infancy and we have much to learn) that normals probably never make a WILLFUL and CONSCIOUS choice in the matter. Possibly, genetics allows them to, kinda exist in the middle ground, oblivious to their surroundings, in a way. Think of the first installment of, “Matrix.” Some people seem to never question much of anything and others like empaths and some narcissists seem to question everything and “see” more in the world around them. I accept the fact that it is quite possible that there is no genetic component but until it is definitively proved either way, I consider it in my thought processes and am very open to new information.

        I do not see any contradiction at all in what I am saying. Maybe I am blind to my own reasoning but…lol…I doubt it. But if someone can logically point it out, I will listen and consider.

        Where did the first narcissist come from? GREAT question. Answer: No one knows and if someone does, they ain’t spilling the beans anytime soon. I have a few theories but I choose to keep that to myself for the most part until I have further evidence which I’ll probably never get but I am eternally hopeful!

        Their similar pathology is most interesting and a line of inquiry that I have studied. To fully answer requires a very long post. (Which I will write when I have more time.) The short version is this: This is all generally speaking, for now. Empaths behave like empaths. Normals behave as normals. Different schools/cadres of narcissists behave like narcissists, squirrels behave like squirrels, birds behave like birds. Etc., Etc. AFTER the narcissist’s series of CHOICES are made, it becomes a part of their brain chemistry, instinct, etc. After an empath makes their CHOICES, it becomes a part of their brain chemistry, instinct, etc. I remember reading a very good book on psychopathy when I was about 8. I saw the ability not to have negative emotions (hurt, fear, guilt, crying, sadness, feeling of never good enough, etc.,) as a positive thing and was somewhat jealous of this ability. But I also remember thinking that if I could not feel love from my (super-empath, as I know clearly now that she was) Grandmother, then it was not worth being a psychopath with no empathy. My grandmother’s love had the ability to wash away all the negative emotions that everyone else dumped on me like a fairy grandmother waving a magic healing wand. She was amazing in her capacity to love and heal simply with her presence, unbounded affections and kind words. She was also wise enough to spot narcissists and warn me of their behaviors (her and my holy narcissist parent never said anything bad of each other but at the same time, they DID NOT like one another) although she did not know to call them narcissists. Again, I will spell out my theories of similarity more coherently and indepthly as a later time. I hope this somewhat clarifies what you see as contradictions.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Your entire hypothesis is flawed, you state

          “Yes, I believe as very young children, narcissists make a CHOICE to embrace power and control over things like love, empathy and selflessness.”

          This has two fundamental problems :-

          1. You do not provide any evidence that supports that a choice is made. How do you know a choice was made? Have you interviewed 1000 children during the formation of their narcissism and asked them if they chose to embrace power and control? No you have not. You make this assertion without any evidence to support it; and
          2. Your assertion flies in the face of evidence and logic which already exists. How can a 4 year old exert any control over their environment when they are reliant on supposed caregivers for everything. Can the 4 year old buy clothes, prepare food, clean their environment, teach themselves to do maths etc? No. Can the 4 year old adequately defend themselves from fending off a physical attack? Sexual abuse? No, they are overpowered and controlled. It is this lack of control and lack of choice which (allied with genetic predisposition) creates the narcissist. There is no choice involved. Do empaths decide to become empaths? No, they do not.

          It is good to read you have given it one last shot as you are wholly incorrect and your inaccurate assertions on this matter cannot be entertained any longer. You had the opportunity to provide some credible EVIDENCE to support your belief and also to dislodge the evidentially based premise which contradicts your own – you have failed to do so. This demonstrates that your belief is ill-founded, inaccurate and to be discounted.

          1. EmP says:

            “Do empaths decide to become empaths? No, they do not”.

            I definitely did not decide to be born/become an empath. I hate it at times. I hate the fact that I cannot switch my empathy off, I hate that I cannot choose which emotional reactions to have and/or exhibit, decide whom to feel for.

            Do some research and you will see how many people (including experts) believe emotional responses, as well as empathy in general, can be controlled, if not blocked.
            Well, it’s not true!!!! But of course, unless you are an empath (or HG) you will not understand.

            I can’t help it = I have no choice. I mean, I do in theory. I repeat, IN THEORY.

            Do you know how many times I have been shamed for not being able to ‘disconnect’, ‘not care’, or for ‘taking things at heart too much’, for ‘being too sensitive’?
            I felt as if I was indeed to blame for not being able to block my emotional responses. People made it sound so easy after all.

            This created so much hurt and frustration – until I read HG’s work and learned about the ’empathy spectrum’, the ‘sins of the empath’ and so on and so forth.

            Thank goodness for that. That was life-changing. I know I keep saying it, but it’s true. Where would I be now if I hadn’t come across this blog?

            As much as I hate to admit it (and I do hate it), it may well be the case that narcissists are unable to respond to people and situations in a different way.

            It is sad. It goes against everything I have been taught about free will but I have to keep an open mind, do I not?

          2. Mercy says:

            Emp, do you feel like you have more control over your emotions since you’ve started learning from HG?

          3. FYC says:

            Spot on, HG. And EmP, I so identify with your sentiments and your appreciation for HG’s incredible insights, but I have come to acknowledge empathy as a strength. Challenging at times, yes, but powerful indeed. People who belittle what they do not understand and judge others only limit themselves.

          4. It Depends says:

            Evidence? Your fundamentally skewed logic although funny, borderlines on being common sense ridiculous. Children have forms of control and the ability to make choices and decisions. it is obvious. No interviews are needed, just plain old observation and common sense. The ultimate lack of accountability = None of my being evil is any of my fault. Yeah, right… Abuse, other people and/or my environment forced me to be evil. Yeah, right… I’ve seen evil four year olds play people like puppets on a string. And I never said that people make the “direct” choice to be an empath or narcissist. Obviously. Duh. I said, narcissists (I believe full blown narcissism is developed by, at the latest, age 5) make early life choices that destroys their empathy laden conscience. i’ve also witnessed children live a life of hell and be the most wonderful empathic person you could imagine. Why? CHOICE!!!

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Wrong. Again. Thank you for proving what I have stated previously with your responses.

          6. Mercy says:

            It Depends, as I’m reading this I’m waiting for my 5 year old grandson to make a choice between chicken nuggets and pizza.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Comment of the day.

          8. Mercy says:

            Woot woot!

          9. NarcAngel says:

            Hahaha. Perfect.

          10. Lisa says:


            The only choice in any of it is whether or not to act according to your personality. That is difficult and takes a lot of very hard work, and is only achievable with the ability to see what you are.

            Nobody has a choice in which neurological pathways are formed. Those pathways will form differently under identical circumstances due to biological reasons.

          11. EmP says:

            Mercy, Yes and no.

            I am still unable to prevent/modify the emotional response but I am better at controlling WHAT I DO WITH that emotion.

          12. Mercy says:

            Emp, thank you. I feel like I able to level the intense emotions more easily

          13. EmP says:

            Mercy, you’re welcome!

        2. E&L says:

          “I’ma let you finish” in just a minute…Yeezy

          Nature + Nurture = Narcissism

          Biological Predisposition + Effective Coping Mechanisms that Mitigate Stressful/Difficult Environments = Narcissist

          He/She does “this”; therefore, he/she is a narcissist/highly narcissistic…NOT…He/She is a narcissist; therefore, H/S does “this”.

          And parroting real narc lingo; “You may now dialogue.”

          1. NarcAngel says:

            Excellent, but you’ll have to give them some time to refer to their “research” in the book Green Eggs And Ham for any sign of those terms or concepts that presently elude them.

          2. E&L says:

            NA, “Sam-I-Am”, aka word salad (omnivore friendly) inviting us all to the buffet.

        3. K says:

          It Depends
          My twin did NOT choose to be a narcissist and I did NOT choose to be an empath. GPD and LOCE created us. We had no choice.

          1. mommypino says:

            K, I know that you’re not identical because I believe that I remember you say that your twin is a brother. But I think someday it would be great to do studies on identical twins where one is an empath/normal and one is a narc to show that their different experiences (soil) from their parents caused one to be a narc and one to not be one. But it will probably not happen because no narc would volunteer because they don’t believe that they are one. Except maybe when there is monetary rewards.

          2. K says:

            Yes, you remembered correctly, my brother is my twin and Simon Baron-Cohen wrote in The Science of Evil: On Empathy and the Origins of Cruelty that both identical and fraternal twins should be studied with regards to NPD.

            I have access to three sets of fraternal twins: an empath set, and apath set and a narcissistic set (I think the girl is the narc, not the boy). I lost a pair of identical twin girls (the family moved) that I suspected were both narcissists. It is very clear that GPD does have an impact on the formation of a narcissistic child.

          3. mommypino says:

            Wow thank you K. I was not aware of Simon Baron-Cohen but I agree with him. There has been a twin study in China but I think there needs to be more, specifically on identical twins. I have read comments from ACoNs from a support group on FB where they feel alone because their siblings dismiss their story that they were maltreated. They say that it’s because each child has a different experience in the family dynamic. So just because people live in the same household doesn’t mean that they have the same soil.

          4. K says:

            They need to do more studies about NPD, especially where children are concerned.

            Both of my narcissistic siblings told me they had wonderful childhoods and our mother was wonderful. My empath sister and I disagree wholeheartedly with their assessment.

          5. mommypino says:

            K, Are your narcissistic siblings narcissist or just narcissistic? I’m just amazed that they remember things differently. And I have read so many stories like that where the scapegoated child or children are treated like they were just making everything up. My half brother said that he cannot understand how our MRE sister worshipped their mom ever since they found out that dad cheated on her and had me because for as far as he could remember, our MRE sister and their mom couldn’t get along. He couldn’t understand how all of a sudden her memory of things changed into something that is so far from what he remembers happened.

            I was thinking that studies involving identical twins especially if they are compared to their other siblings could help identify more genes that are related to narcissism and how they are expressed and also which traits are more heritable. The twin studies in China showed that grandiosity and entitlement are highly heritable but these two traits are just some of the traits that narcissists have. Even an empath can score high in grandiosity although I think not so high in entitlement.

          6. K says:

            My twin and one older sister are both NPD. I did not respond when they told me how wonderful our mother and childhood was; I thought they were absolutely nuts and walked away and told my empath sister about it later on. She was completely baffled, too. We grew up in a nut-house (from my POV).

            The answers to your brother’s questions regarding your MRE sister’s volte face are in the article: The Revision of History. The gaslighting and triangulation were all done to achieve the Prime Aims, namely fuel. He should read the article so he can get clarity. It will make a big difference.

            Simon Baron-Cohen is Sacha’s cousin. His book is very good and it helps clear up ET regarding the “evilness” of personality disorders. Personality disordered people are not evil at all, they just don’t have emotional empathy. More studies are definitely needed re: Cluster Bs and I think empaths and narcissists are more alike than we realize.

          7. mommypino says:

            Wow!! They are cousins?!! That’s pretty cool to know. I always thought that Sacha Cohen seems smart. Although I don’t really know a lot about him except for Borat and that his wife is gorgeous. Simon Baron Cohen has an interesting perspective. My perspective on whether certain people are evil have changed so many times over time. When I was younger, my religious perspective gave me a belief that nobody is evil. I loved my what my philosophy prof’s theory that he told me when I was interviewing him for a paper. He said that God made all of us in His likeness. If God is good, then we are all innately good. And he said that if we do evil things, we self destruct because we are going against our nature. And I totally loved that and applied that as my personal philosophy which was detrimental to me when I dealt with my MRE sister and highly narcissistic stepdaughters because I kept waiting for the goodness in their nature to finally stop judging me and finally see that I am not a threat to them and if they give me a chance I want the best for all of us. Then I learned about NPD and thought that wow, there are people who are evil. But now I think that they are not evil to be evil, they hurt people because of the way that they learned to survive or cope with whatever lack of control they experienced. I would never say that my MRE sister is evil. I know that she genuinely felt bad for herself when she did the pity parties even if it was to manipulate. I would like to read Simon Baron Cohen’s book someday.

            I am not sure if I can tell my brother that our sister is a narcissist. He really loves her and when we dumped her ashes I saw that he was more hurt than I was with her death because he grew up with her. Maybe someday in the future I will be able to discuss that with him. But thank you for the articles, I will definitely read them. I am just amazed at the ability of your narc siblings and my narc sibling to rewrite history in their minds and it seems like they really actually start believing their own lies in their head. I have a great imagination too and sometimes I’m tempted to exaggerate what I did previously in the Philippines to impress my husband or other people. Like I did commercial modeling when I was in high school and I’m sometimes tempted to tell my husband an exaggerated number of commercials that I did to make him feel that I’m such a catch. But I still don’t do it although I’m tempted. And if I did it’s not a lie that is meant to hurt anyone. But to revise the past in order to dismiss another person’s hurtful experience like yours in your family or to triangulate like my sister did with her mom does hurt people. I guess it’s one of the differences of an empath’s narcissistic trait vs a narcissist. I’m sorry that your truth and experience is being denied by your narc siblings. But thankfully you have an empath sibling who understood you and that you’re also a strong person to not acquiesce with your narc sibling’s manipulation.

          8. K says:

            Thank you mommypino
            Yes, they are cousins and, when you have the time, his book is easy to read and it isn’t very long. I really enjoyed it. Narcissists aren’t evil, they don’t have a choice and the terms NPD and ASPD are being used more frequently and that is a hopeful sign.

            Your brother doesn’t need to know that his sister was a narcissist, sometimes, it is best to let sleeping dogs lie and it is natural to want to exaggerate, however, you didn’t (that’s your trait of decency) that, and motive, are key differences between the two personalities. Narcissists and empaths are similar in some ways but our emotional empathy separates us and we live in two very distinct realities.

            Rewriting history is control and it just came naturally to our siblings. Honestly, I was so confused by them that I just walked away. Thank God for my sister and people like you, here on narcsite, this is where we get our validation.

          9. mommypino says:

            Aww thank you K. You have been so helpful to me here on narcsite as well and you have done so much contribution to my learning journey here when you explain stuff and even provide articles where I can find answers. I really appreciate you. And I love what you said that narcissists and empaths live in two very distinct realities. I think that sums it up perfectly. 💕

          10. K says:

            My pleasure mommypino,
            And thank you for your kind words! It is very difficult to find good support IRL and this place is full of supportive people who understand and that is rare!!!

          11. mommypino says:

            By the way K, when I first read Simon Baron-Cohen, I thought that you were referring to Borat. I was thinking really? He wrote that? Wow. But I remembered it’s actually Sacha and not Simon 😂.

          12. Lou says:

            Same happened to me. Ha!

  12. It Depends says:

    Slight correction: Not the “entire” psychological community but a VAST majority of it.

    1. Witch says:

      You’re on to something it depends, HG knows the truth but doesn’t want to admit he has a 4 year old employed as a personal assistant. He knows exactly what they’re capable of.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Damn, rumbled, and they are so cheap to use as well.

        1. Witch says:

          Have you seen the film “the omen?”
          Haters will say it’s only fiction

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I have.

      2. It Depends says:

        “4 year old employed as a personal assistant.”

        🤣🤣🤣 This made my day! Still laughing!!! 🤣🤣🤣

  13. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    FYC: I am shocked by the theory of this good doctor that you wrote about: “Donald Winnicott, MD, PhD, is the respected pioneer of the true self/false self theory. In short, he explains we are born with our true self, we are absolutely aware of our feelings and emote freely. “ ~~~~~FYC, however, his words remind me of watching nature channel shows on the various babies on this planet, and then I remember the list of so many baby creatures, that are obligated at birth, to leave the egg, the pod, the mound, the birth site, etc, because they are on their own, before birth, during birth, or right after birth, etc., to move on and to go about their existence without being reared and taught by a parent, but only girded by instinct of their “true self,“ and “feelings“` that keeps them aware of their needs and the resulting ability to screech, call, cry out and go forth alone, into the wild. ~~~~~I never thought of the offspring of people as being so independent minded at birth, as Dr. Winnicott theorized. So then, I would ask the good doctor Winnicott (good name for this sort of thing, yes?) why are we spending so much time and money on them?

  14. Whitney says:

    HG is strong so he can protect us.

  15. J.G THE ONE says:

    Hello, H.G.Tudor.
    A metaphysical/spiritual thought.
    My magical thought.
    In a previous comment, mention that both you and I are unbalanced. Both by default and by excess of the traits and feelings that characterize us.
    If you are promiscuous, in my case I am not.
    If you feel hate, anger, rage, jealousy, etc. In my case, these traits are usually minimal.
    If you can’t feel attachment. In my case, it’s the opposite. You will notice my ease of this character trait easily.
    If you are rational, I am sentimental.
    If you believe in the scientific, I believe in the spiritual.
    As the two saucers of a scale we are, always together, but at the same time separated. And loose, always and eternally unbalanced.
    This imbalance, both in the Narcissists and in the Empathics, prevents both of you from being fully happy. And this is the reality.
    Do you believe in metaphysics, mystery and the beyond? Let me vouch for you. Evidently No.
    On the contrary, this is not my case.
    A metaphysical/spiritual question that I have always asked myself in particular is What am I doing here? Why have I come to this world? The answer to this question is usually always the same. Experiment and learn. But what should I experience and learn? Narcissistic suffering? And why this?
    You speak of emotional attention as fuel. An intangible energy force in the physical world. And therefore, of something that cannot be measured, nor quantified scientifically, but evidently we can feel it. Isn’t this a bit metaphysical? We are talking about energy being drained spiritually, for survival, but we are not aware of it, because this energy is intangible. If you think about it coldly, it is pure metaphysical/spiritual, because this fuel cannot be measured empirically.
    And I wonder what would happen if these feelings were empirically measurable? And if we took a test tube and mixed them? and if we divided it again equally? One for you and one for me. You would cease to be you and I would cease to be me, as we were before. You would be a new me and I would be a new you. Because when these feelings are mixed, they would be neutralized, tempered (temperance). Entering or getting a perfect balance.
    Why do empathic and narcissistic need Attachment? Of course, we each see this attachment from our own perspectives. Isn’t this a reflection of our own insecurities and fears? Don’t we come into this world alone and leave in the same way? So what is the purpose of pursuing this so eagerly?
    Does not Attachment engender this, emotional states? The one you covet for our fuel and the one we suffer for your “Love”.

    Do you believe in reincarnation or karmic cycles? Let me answer for you again, No.
    Reincarnation speaks of us coming to this earth plane to experience and learn certain things. What, is it not known exactly? We must experience and learn what we have come to do on this plane, before there is death, physical death. If you succeed in learning, you will pass on to a new plane of existence, where you will again have to learn other things. If, on the other hand, you are in your last reincarnation and you manage to experience it and learn from it your karmic cycle of reincarnation ends. That is when you transcend.
    Do you know the book of the Egyptian dead? I suppose so.
    One of the most important images of the book of the dead is the Judgment.
    In the judgment a scale appears, in which the heart is weighed (positive and negative feelings) against the pen of Mat (the truth). If the weight by excess or defect is not the exact one, that is to say, it is not or it is balanced. The heart of the deceased along with him judged, was devoured by Ammyt god represented as a chimera.

    I don’t know if this that we live, will be our karmic process or not! I don’t know if this is what I have come to learn here! I don’t know if I will transcend or not! What is clear to me is that we must balance and correct our excesses and our defects, our traits and feelings. No, as to whether or not we can transcend, but for a much fuller, healthier, more satisfying and happier life. Here in the terrestrial plane or who knows if in the beyond.

    1. It Depends says:

      An honest deep thinker. A nice thing to see on this board. Keep seeking, the answers only come to those whose will, desire and perseverance to chase down the truth can not be stopped.

    2. Kiki says:

      Wow JG that was an amazing post .Loved it .


  16. mai51 says:

    Very interesting HG.

    My ex told me early on that he becomes very attached to his lovers. I took it as a warning, and was quite bemused, as I had made it clear our relationship was only to be light, and fun, and sexually based. I would often wake up and roll over to see tears streaming down his face….

    He teared up talking about his dogs he had lost because he was too high to look after them. His ex that overdosed due to him. His children he had lost contact with due to his fringe lifestyle and lack of commitment. He lost his best (only) long term friend last year due to an opioid overdose and was distraught.

    I saw him attached (obsessed one might say) with political ideology, cryptocurrency, video games, getting high…..

    I have zero doubt he has NPD. He meets ALL the criteria, and our relationship followed the inevitable toxic pattern and he has followed all the negative predictable stages….

    So what gives?

    Is it only about fuel (loss of unconditional love from his pups and children…. loss of fuel from his best friend who idealised him…. loss of negative fuel from his ex and their toxic relationship)….

    Or something else? He at best is an lower midrange, but his unbridled rage points to an upper lesser….

    How does one so self unaware fake these emotions?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Observation and instinct. Narcissism operates in a way to protect its ‘host’, thus it observes and mimics on behalf of that ‘host’. A little bit like your immune system, it defends you instinctively and it adapts on your behalf, you do not ‘command it’.

  17. Chihuahuamum says:

    Attachment is to live fully. If you can never open up you are imprisoned emotionally stunted. We’re here to experience it all..happiness, sadness, pain, passion. Those that fear and avoid attachment arent living plain and simple. Sure you may achieve a lot in life and thats not to be discounted but youve really missed a big reason why youre here. Narcissists are stunted emotionally incapsulated. They miss out on so much. To love is to live and grow fully.
    I do have to say tho that ive thought a lot about this and legacy. Legacy is very important as well and if its a positive legacy and helps others then thats a very important part of growth and very meaningful.

    1. It Depends says:

      Total agreement.

  18. It Depends says:

    Interestingly, when we are no longer attached to the narcissist and want nothing to do with them……… Imagine a dog (analogy for an empath) who you shower with attention and what seems like affection and that dog genuinely loves you back, never leaves your side and would protect you until it’s dying breath. Then you begin ignoring the dog and he still loves you and thinks you are wonderful but maybe distracted lately. (and you expect it from that dog) Then one day the dog gets tired of not receiving affection anymore and begins staying with the neighbor and refuses to ever come back to you are come when called. The dog doesn’t hate the old owner, it just prefers spending it’s time with it’s new genuinely loving owner.

  19. A Girl Is No-One says:

    You had me at Capricious.

  20. J.G THE ONE says:

    Hello, H.G. Tudor.
    Here it is again. This post is a very revealing post.
    You know a long time ago that I saw this problem in me. When I start a friendly relationship and spend a lot of time with this person it usually happens to me that attachment begins. That’s what I’ve realized. I guess now I notice myself more and I understand myself much better. Now I try to cut these feelings automatically detect them, as quickly as possible. This avoids what you say in the post. And now I’m doing great. I guess they’re self-defense maneuvers. This of course creates a sociability problem because by avoiding bonding and connection relationships are not full. I cut and avoid any kind of bonding. You can attach your victims and on the contrary you cannot create attachment. In my case I can create attachment in a fast and astonishing way, but by inviting you or cutting this because of what is mentioned in your post, I can’t or don’t want to attach people. The end is the same, but in a different way. You can not get hurt. In my case, I do it to avoid possible harm. I don’t know if you will understand what I mean.

  21. Lisa says:

    The hope is that the beauty of the attachment will outweigh the pain of the loss, although it’s not always the case.

    I think if you were able to feel attachment the same way as empaths and normals, you couldn’t do what you need to do to find fuel. From that perspective, there would absolutely be value in not feeling it.

    Do other narcissists (lessers and mid rangers) feel attachment, HG? Those I’ve known certainly seemed to, but that could just be the fuel they’re attached to.

    Is this lack of attachment an NPD thing or an ASPD thing?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No they do not feel attachment. The appearance of attachment is provided of course, as part of the manipulation.

      1. Lisa says:

        Thanks HG

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

  22. Veronique Jones says:

    HG this is sad you must be very lonely ☹️

    1. Lisa says:

      I don’t think he would be (please, HG, correct me if I’m wrong). I think he’s describing a perfect example of “can’t miss what you’ve never known”

      1. HG Tudor says:


    2. HG Tudor says:

      Not at all.

  23. Dearest HG: As I painfully dis-engage from the mid ranger, and his lieutenants as a by-product, I am happy to feel that I do not have to suffer an extra burden of feeling that I am hurting them emotionally by doing so. I often have feelings of guilt and compassion over the smallest and underserving things and people, but for once I can do something for myself without worrying about hurting others. At the most, I am glad to know, that to them, I am no more than a malfunctioning or perhaps by now, and obsolete object or appliance. At worse, a bad robot, and that is just about it, to them. I find this knowledge soothing, and a silver lining in this box of horrors.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Good. So long as that accords with a no contact regime then that’s a valid thought process.

    2. Witch says:

      You shouldn’t feel guilty for prioritising your safety, you’re doing a good thing for yourself and those that truly love you and don’t want to see you suffer.
      I’m different from you though. I was proud of making the narcissist suffer by going no contact. Knowing that I was punishing him motivated me to maintain no contact. He isn’t going to change and will make more women suffer, so I’m glad for his suffering.
      Whatever is taken is owed.

  24. Annieareyouok says:

    Chilling! I like your literary style. You go deep and it’s hard to swallow, hard to believe, and all around unbearably sad, but a necessary read if you know people like this, which I certainly do. Also a timely read for me because I’ve been wondering how these types of people really think. This narrative feels so alien to me; inhuman because I attach, connect to others, feel deeply, and want to trust others who supposedly love me. Even when we realize that they don’t love us, we often re-convince ourselves that they do because the loss of the attachment we have with them is too devastating. However, to realize we’ve been lied to and taken advantage of by such people is the worst devastation. Far worse that the loss of the attachment is the psychological devastation that you’ve wasted years, decades of your love and life-force on people who didn’t actually love you beyond what you could do for them or how you can make them look.

    We feel forced to built those barbed wires and electric fences just like them, to keep more of them out, until we realize that they were the electric fence all along: inhuman by choice or necessity. Now we must come to terms with the fact that we were probably raised by people like this (if this person is a partner, friend, etc.). They’ve trained us to not trust others, just like them, because they were jealous of us being able to forge real connections with people that wasn’t faked just to gain our attachment to them. In turn, they poisoned us and everyone around them, including themselves.

    Let them sit alone in the ivory tower they built with our stolen life-force. They are our shadow. Our hidden enemy. I might add “no mercy” if empathy wasn’t our greatest strength. We all know who wins this game in the end. Justice will prevail.

  25. TY says:

    Happy Easter to all! The first time I read this post, it answered all of my lingering questions. The clarity and acceptance is priceless. HG I wish you an excellent day with the Shieldmaiden! Hopefully you can avoid narc family members 😉

  26. It Depends says:

    I just thought of something. Narcissists hide their weak, controlling, lying, vicious, selfish, unloving and hateful “Creature” (the true self instead of their fake selves) behind their “construct.” I “am” the “Creature” and what I am is full of love and the beautiful things of life, strong and powerful. Thus, a narcissist’s need to “feed” upon our strength and power, for their very survival. I never saw it quite that light before. 🧐🧐🧐

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Wrong. Again.

      1. It Depends says:

        🤣🤣🤣😎😎😎😎🤣🤣🤣. I’m always wrong cause I am such an idiot without so much as a fundamental grasp of narcissism, don’t ya know? 🤣🤣🤣😼😼😼🤣🤣🤣

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Right. Well done!

        2. Abw Flying says:

          It Depends,

          You are wrong about the creature because you don’t know what is like to have one. I do.

        3. It Depends says:

          That reminds me, Vladimir is looking especially good this week!!! 😼😎😼.

          1. Twilight says:

            It Depends

            I know where I have seen you before.

          2. It Depends says:

            Thus the name: It Depends (On what I’m doing) hehehe

          3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            It Depends. For the sake of discussion, even if Narcissism is a choice, and even if Psychologists one day “admit“ this or teach this, these very same experts still could not explain why narcissists behave in so strange and similar a fashion, when the narcissists themselves exist in so many different walks of life and classes and cultures and countries and races. In short, this pathological peculiarity and more so, the similarity in it all, is precisely what makes it more than just a choice. There are slight variations of the theme, of course, depending on the cognitive functioning of the individual narcissist, but the theme narcissism itself and how amazingly similar the peculiar behaviour is, must be explained away, for anyone to say that a mere choice is all that is going on here. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. I see no way for the professed Professionals of narcissism to say that what creates such a bizarre pattern of behaviors, that is similar whenever or wherever diagnosed, is just individual choice, without explaining how the choice creates the same peculiar pathology wherever it is found. Whew.

      2. It Depends says:


        ………”My experience is far superior to yours, the quality and accuracy of my information speaks for itself.”……..: Not knowing my experience, you can not claim superiority of your own. Nice try though. Secondly, I admit to the superior quality and “most” of your accuracy, compared to most writers and psychologists, both modern and more antique. However, to state that a narcissist is not possible in a healthy growing environment, you lose credibility, in that one area, to those who know otherwise. What parents would waste time with psychologists who (if they even know what they’re dealing with, which is quite rare) blame the empathetic parents and basically say, the narcissist kid will never change? This is one of the reasons why this myth persists. I am overly simplifying the situation of course, for the sake of brevity. The systems created by narcissists are set up to protect the narcissists and all their “projects.” Empathic parents simply walk away from a system that shifts blame onto the parents instead of on the children’s choices. The parents don’t stand up and try to explain because they feel it is pointless. They would be standing up against the ENTIRE psychological community. The fact is, you and the ENTIRE psychological community, are wrong. But, maintaining your positions, is advantageous to the psychological community, you and your kind, on many many levels.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          “The fact is, you and the ENTIRE psychological community, are wrong. ”

          Thank you for the entertainment. I am not wasting further time with your comments.

          1. It Depends says:

            Thanks! 😎

        2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          It Depends. You are implying that unlike Narcissists, Empaths are perfect: They are therefore incapable or creating an unhealthy environment for a child. I do not know why you imply this. But 2 Empaths can stimulate the narcissism in a child, if the environment that those 2 empaths create, are not healthy for the child in question.

          1. It Depends says:

            I agree that 2 empaths “could” create a bad environment for a child. Not implying empaths are perfect. Obviously, we all make mistakes. Let’s assume for a moment that I am intelligent and empathetic enough to know the difference between a good environment and a bad one. ( although I know “some” will disagree with this assumption 🤣🤣🤣). How do you explain the narcissists that come from a wonderful environment? Yes, they exist. The parents just live, shall we say, as quietly as possible, out of fear, usually for being blamed for the creation of the little monster. And it’s siblings just learn to avoid the walking disaster.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            They do not come from a wonderful environment, it may APPEAR wonderful (it is called the façade) but it is not.

          3. FYC says:

            Excellent points PSE, you are correct. No one is perfect. Attunement and lack of trauma are noted as key for avoidance of behavioral contributions to disorders. Further, an empath can carry one or more of the genes attributed to narcissism. Narcissists never come from so called ‘good’ environments.

          4. FYC says:

            So true HG! The frustrating part of facade (besides the dishonest hypocrisy) is how amazingly effective it is.

          5. It Depends. You are implying that the Empathic parents are omnipotent. Just because they know what a healthy environment is, does not mean they can always provide a wonderful environment for their offspring, or even be aware that they have failed to do so, for the child in question.

        3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

          It Depends. The reason I say that 2 Empaths can create an unhealthy environment for a child is because of some debates held regarding the “Me Too“ movement, that I have listened to. Many empathetic parents are also Love Devotees. They believe in things like: there is some good in all people. And, you attract what you want, “Laws of Attraction“ sort of things, etc. And they teach all this to their children. So one day, when little Johnny or little Sally says to their parents, I do not like Uncle Bill, or I do not want to go across the street to visit the neighbors anymore, but when asked to explain, the child can not find the words to do so, or says the person or people are bad, without being able to explain, the Empathetic parents will say: Nonsense. And even tell the child to never say that again, and to be sure to smile and give the person or persons a hug when they all are together. However, it is possible that person or persons are abusing that child, physically, or emotionally, and the child can not find a way to express it. And such emphatic parents may continue to push their children onto people in violation of that child`s well being and emotional and physical rights, for years and years. That is an example of 2 Empathetic parents creating an unhealthy environment for their child. Breaking down that child`s ability to stay emotionally and physically healthy.

          1. It Depends says:

            I completely agree with your entire post. And, I would consider this an unhealthy environment.

          2. Lisa says:

            This is what I was thinking. It’s not always the parents causing the trauma.

            And with an absence of trauma, it’s likely that those children have something other than narcissistic personality disorder.

    2. A Girl Is No-One says:

      Something I’d come out with.
      I think the creature is feelings of not being good enough. Not being ‘right’. Having no control. Feeling empty inside (admittedly through lack of emotion). If Empaths were the creature, wouldn’t that make him a very traumatised Empath himself – with all his ‘narcissistic’ traits on show? Those feelings of love and attachment don’t exist, no matter how deep you go.

      1. HG Tudor says:


        1. Lisa says:

          If we’re going to guess at what the creature is, I think it might be more like in the tv show Supernatural (spoiler from like 7 seasons ago) when Sam lost his soul in hell and the devil had it to torture for an entire year before he got it back.

          He was definitely behaving like a narcissist when he was Soulless Sam.

          When the Death character put Sam’s soul back in, he had to create a barrier in Sam’s mind to protect him from the things that had been done to it, or he risked any number of psychological consequences from just a glimpse of what the soul had suffered.

          Narcissism being a coping mechanism, I think perhaps the creature is simply the piece that was so broken you had to completely separate from it in order to survive, because no one should have to see the things that it has seen.

          If I had been through the traumas of my marriage to Narcissist the First as a child, this almost certainly would have been the result. It came close enough as it is, but in a different way, because the core of my personality was already fully formed.

          Whether I’m right or wrong, I am sorry we’re all talking about it so much, and I hope it’s far enough away at the moment that you’re okay.

          1. It Depends says:

            Most respectfully, I must disagree most passionately on one point. The entire psychological community will one day be held responsible for this most egregious and purposeful lie. Narcissism is NOT a coping mechanism. It is a choice of power and control. I have MANY reasons for knowing this to be true. Example 1: Tudor admits his “fascination” with his uncle and mother’s power and control over other people and wanted it for himself. He chose not to follow his dad’s example because he thought of it as “weak.” Not all narcissists are raised by harmful or overly smothering or too permissive parents, etc. Some are raised by good empathetic and normal people. A person has either researched and/or lived this life long enough to understand that or they have not. But if you expect greater narcissists and psychologists to tell the truth, you have a long wait ahead. There are motives ( smart ones for narcissists) to keeping this blame shifting and lies in place. Think about it, seriously consider the consequences of the psychological community coming out and admitting that being a narcissist is a deliberate, conscious and willful choice with the intent to control, abuse and manipulate all others for exclusively selfish reasons.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Wrong. Again.

            I explained that my narcissism had already formed and the choice I made was an enhancement of my narcissism. Yes, I say the way my father acted and I rejected that (because of my narcissism). I saw the way my uncle and mother behaved and I desired the power exhibited (because of my narcissism).

            Narcissists do not arise in environments of completely empathic people as explained in a previous article.

            It is not blame-shifting. I accept what I am, I know what created me but I never play on it (witness the responses I give when people respond to Love Is A Taught Construct). Lesser and Mid Range Narcissists do not blame shift with regard to their creation – why is that? Because they do not know what they are and therefore how can they blameshift when they do not know what they are.

          3. It Depends says:


            They blame shift out of instinct, not knowing what they are or what they’re doing. Yes, a narcissist can become a child narcissist in the home of two empaths. You’re life experience is apparently too narrow!!!!

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Ah so it’s instinct not choice – you’ve just defeated your own hypothesis.

            No, if it’s a healthy atmosphere it will not happen. My experience is far superior to yours, the quality and accuracy of my information speaks for itself. Your repeated assertions demonstrate you are ill-Informed and actually dangerous in some of what you write, hence it’s necessary for me to repeatedly correct your inaccuracies.

          5. FYC says:

            Regarding the true self (the creature) and false self; here is original theory:

            Donald Winnicott, MD, PhD, is the respected pioneer of the true self/false self theory. In short, he explains we are born with our true self, we are absolutely aware of our feelings and emote freely. Our mother is the mirror to our experience. If when we cry, show anger, frustration, etc, and we receive understanding and attunement from our mother, we feel “safe” with our true self. As we mature, we all develop a false self to enable us to behave appropriately to our environment.

            If instead, a child’s true self behavior at birth through childhood is shamed, shunned, ignored or punished, etc., this creates a radical interruption of the baby’s spontaneous development. As a result, the child develops the false self far too soon and learns to fear their true self and to avoid it. When denial of true self prevails, the false self completely compensates and narcissism or other disorders are created and thrive.

            I will add a caveat that there is also a genetic predisposition that plays a roll. Genes are not directly responsible for behavior, they must be expressed. For more on genetics, epigenetics, and brain function, please read the comments section of the post “Twisted”.

            To avoid a longer comment, I’ll just say there is ample research on coping and defense mechanisms. It is well-founded. Narcissism is a defense mechanism.

        2. A Girl Is No-One says:


        3. It Depends says:


          …”you’ve just defeated your own hypothesis…”. Typical illogical, narcissistic word salad. I did not defeat my own hypothesis. My hypothesis is that ALL narcissists CHOOSE power and control over love and empathy. What happens after they destroy their own conscience, for a lesser or mid-range, is akin to a self-preservation instinct. To look into a mirror of what they truly are, what they have done to themselves, admitting that there might be a consequence to their evil actions (to be held accountable in the “court of the “Creator”) one day is such a nightmarish scenario, they can not allow themselves to face probable realities. If “Creator” exists and is just, they will be held accountable in some way. If there is no “Creator” their very existence was useless, without purpose, they never mattered at all and will be soon forgotten along with every other narcissist, consigned to the dust bin of history.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            Wrong. As usual. I have explained why already. I am not wasting my time repeating myself.

          2. Witch says:

            It depends,
            Where have you come across a narcissist raised by 2 empathetic parents?
            This is only possible in the case of a child who has been unintentionally neglected.
            For example there is a case in the book “boy who was raised as a dog” of a child that developed narcissism/psychopathy due to unintentional neglect by the mother who has a learning disability and did not know how to manage the baby. She would leave him for long periods of time without care, so that when he cried he was not being picked up and cuddled. His emotional needs for affection and security were not met, so he never learnt to associate human connection with pleasure and security, this led to him becoming disordered.

      2. It Depends says:

        It’s kinda like this: My “creature” reference to empaths was slightly metaphorical. “Creature” is the true self, who you really are. An empath is their own real and loving self, full of both negative and most importantly, positive emotions. Empaths aren’t hiding who they are.

        Narcissists have their pathetic, hateful and control obsessed “real” selves hidden behind their fake persona, facade, construct, etc. Their real selves are emotionally dead to positive emotions and even some negative ones like sadness. They have to have “fuel” (emotional attention) to keep their reality gap from destroying their false self and thus revealing (to themselves) the true revelation of what they have actually become. (This is the abyss.)

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Wrong. Again.

          1. Kiki says:

            It depends is making some very powerful points here .
            I think he or she is hitting a raw nerve in you somewhere.
            I love your works so please don’t berate me this is simply my observation.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Incorrect. Your observation is wrong. It Depends is making incorrect and ill-founded points which I have repeatedly explained.

          3. kiki says:

            Ooops apologies I’m not an expert HG.


        2. A Girl Is No-One says:

          Thanks for that description ItDepends.

          I’m not ashamed to admit that my capacity to hold an academic debate is really quite limited when compared to the majority of people who comment on this blog. I could only make you something or give you a hug to show my appreciation for your response 🙂

        3. It Depends says:

          A correction: “Their real selves are emotionally dead to positive emotions and even some negative ones like sadness.”………This is better said this way………Their real selves are incapable of “genuine” positive emotions towards others. They do not “feel” positive and some negative emotions the way an empathetic person does. Capable of feeling temporarily “full” from the emotional attention of others but not capable of contentment and happiness. While they can feel a type of “satisfaction” from feeling powerful and in control of others, it is not the “self-satisfaction” and contentment that an empath feels from self-satisfactory pursuits such as building and creating. I didn’t mean to say (and as I looked at what I wrote, I realized how it came across) they are completely emotionally dead. But they are emotionally dead in many many ways. They are incapable of happiness within or outside themselves and thus their need to find emotions and attention from others to try and convince themselves that they are not the truly awful and pathetically weak creatures that they actually are. Forever dependent upon people they “try” to convince themselves and others that they are superior to. In reality, empaths are superior to them in every way. We do not need them. They, need us.

        4. Mercy says:

          It Depends, I disagree with your interpretation of an empaths real self. I think it’s possible that the empaths projection of “love conquers all” is simply a result of their false self. If you love enough the narc will change, if you care enough the narc won’t hurt you, if you show them empathy they will return empathy. Is it possible that this is an empaths false self used as a coping mechanisms Instead of our true self that should be able to process the rejection and move on? I feel like an empath has the same denial of true self as the narcissist. They just don’t have the genetic predisposition that the narcissist do. This is obviously only my opinion based on information provided but I feel I’m correct when saying that understanding our own true self is the answer to moving on from the abuse. We can change, the narcissist cannot due to genetics.

          1. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I strongly disagree, Mercy… an Empath has no “false self.” They have a very real, hyper-sensitive self that has a hard time (generally speaking) with the lack of authentic reciprocal emotions back toward them (based on past trauma and/or emotional neglect)… so they try their darnedest to make up for it all — by being more of themselves, HOPING to make up for the narcissist and that lack, to get that reciprocation and “good feel” restoration/balance to ease their emotion unrest, which is impossible.

            And they very much feel the pain of that.

          2. Mercy says:

            Caroline-is-fine, I appreciate your opinion and I’m open to it. I’m not saying I’m right, I’m trying to understand by looking at it from various prospectives. You say we have hyper-sensitive emotions due to past trauma. I agree but why do we have these emotions when normal people can move on? FYC posted interesting stuff about our true self and how when our true emotions are rejected at a early age we create a false self. Isn’t it possible that empaths create a false self on the opposite end of the spectrum as the narcissist? You talk of the need to ease emotional unrest. Where did we learn giving more of ourselves to our abuser eases the unrest? Is this a creation of our false self because our true self was rejected?

            These are just thoughts going through my head. As I continue to get better I’m able accept that I unknowingly play a part in this mess. I’m just trying to figure out why and where did I learn to manipulate my own emotions in order to cope with the abuse.

          3. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks. I understand what you’re saying, Mercy. It’s interesting. From the youngest age, I remember being super sensitive (both in my feelings getting hurt, and also being very astute to/concerned about/responding to others and their feelings)… to a freakish level.

            So without going into my life story, I don’t believe either of my parents are narcissists. I think one is an empath and one is on the higher end of narcissistic traits. So no major trauma or abuse at home, but as I aged, there was a perfectionistic/more critical eye given for me to achieve…I felt very pressured, so it’s like my sensitive nature was there first (inborn) — and then my emotional hurt over all that pressure made me feel “conditionally loved” at times; that’s the best way I can think to put it.

            But there’s no doubt in my mind I was born a trait-based empath, and I really did sense other kids were not taking in/feeling what I was. I knew that. It was super obvious! To the teachers as well, who commented to my parents regularly on it…

            For instance, I remember my preschool teacher always asking me to watch the class whenever she’d go for a break (I know, a little odd), and I noticed all the little details and was always attending to everyone’s emotions, almost like a skilled social worker might do (LOL, but not even really kidding)… comforting girls who would cry, and motivating them back on track and in better spirits/breaking up squabbles with the boys with diplomacy and what each one would respond to most/noticing anyone left out & attending to them, with an individualized insight on how to make them feel special, etc. I remember so much stuff like that. I don’t know how I had any time left to learn the alphabet or anything! LOL
            My parents never put that type of pressure on me, and I was a carefree kid at home in those younger years. Nor did my teachers encourage it. That was ALL me, just innately feeling I should do that — like who will, if not me? LOL

            So I may not have explained this (or my other post) very well, but I sort of see it the opposite direction… but that’s based, of course, on my own environment and situation. So when I wrote what I did about empaths trying to doubly make up in others what they’ve felt they weren’t getting back, that’s just me. HG & the blog/you all have really helped me understand my issues, and I’ve been able to go back in time — reflect — and have a new outlook and a practiced way of dealing with the fact that not everyone is going to give to me what I’m emotionally comfortable with…I have to give it to myself, and not get so wrapped up in overdoing/having healthy boundaries with the non-empaths. I understand also how my 3-year FR with a narcissist happened (that dynamic specifically) and why it went under my radar (that it was unhealthy) for so long before I left. All that’s been really helpful.

            Oops… looks like I did give a bit of a life story. 😉

            Thanks for the lively discussion!:-)

          4. Mercy says:

            Caroline-is-fine, Im glad you shared your “life story” as you put it. It actually helps me understand the differences in the schools of empaths and reminds me that we are not all the same. I always had sensitive emotions but I tend to keep them in until they come out as anger. Then I feel bad and get emotional about being angry haha. Like you, neither of my parents were narcissist. There was love in my childhood but also alot of neglect due to my mother being Ill with depression and my dad putting his religion before his family. My quest to figure out why I form unhealthy attachments is confusing because I didn’t come from an abusive family. In fact it wasn’t until recently that I figured out that my childhood wasn’t normal at all. I’m dealing with issues I never knew existed.

            My original comment wasn’t meant to minimize an empaths feelings. I think we feel real pain and love. What I was trying to say is that in an abusive relationship with a narcissist, maybe are hypersensitive emotions are making us feel like we love the abuser when we are actually emotional because they are not capable of being the kind of person we could love.

            I wanted to ask if you know the type of empath you are? The way you explained your childhood and interactions with friends is interesting. It sounds very “adult like” for a child and must have been hard at times.

          5. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Your original comment wasn’t insensitive at all. I apologize if mine sounded like I thought it was or sounded curt — I hurriedly posted it while doing something else simultaneously (welcome to my life, lol). I had also just come off a thread where very empathic empaths were worried they were narcissists, so that was on my mind! 😀 I get where you are coming from, and I do find it really interesting. I love how you question and reflect and are so open to ideas. I totally understand what you’re saying about an empath’s dynamic with a narcissist, in your second to last paragraph.

            As for Little Caroline Empath, I was only overly mature in that emotional responsiveness (people need me) type of way… otherwise, I was carefree, playful and pretty naïve actually — a funny mix! I’m a Magnet empath, and regarding what you said about keeping things in and then anger…I really think all empaths struggle (in varying ways) with how to deal with all our inner, deep feelings, and the world — it can get overwhelming! It can feel like others don’t understand all that is going on inside us, because many can’t get that — it’s just on a different plane. I think feeling so much is a very beautiful thing, but it can also be hard. Everything goes so much deeper.

            So back to parenting…in childhood, aside from a trauma of losing a cherished friend (a horrific murder that I took so hard), I felt joyful. However, one parent’s increasing pressure on me (regarding my talents/vicariously living through me in multiple ways, which I do see now) was what was really hard on me. I’ve always had a lot of friends, which has helped counter that, because I could unwind and have fun. That said, I do think those childhood messages stay stuck inside us until we root them out and really take a look at them. It’s hard to know why you feel like you do inside when you have no idea where the feelings come from. For me, being on here has helped with that too, because I’m not always good at reasonable boundaries. Now I deal with that one parent in a different (much more healthy) way, and it is freeing! I can also get drained in real life, because it is true that people are drawn to me on a regular basis, and I feel a responsibility to do what I can; and as much as I love being an empath, I can get pulled all over and feeling drained… so now I stop and consciously think about what I’m doing in the moment. I still listen, I still say whatever words come that I feel led to give others that I may think can help, and I love doing that… but I also know when I need to re-energize myself — get much-needed solitary time. If I don’t get that, I can get freaking crabby!

            I’m so sorry about your Mom’s depression, Mercy. That is really very hard on kids growing up, because like you said, it’s more passive neglect, but it absolutely has an impact, because you yearn to feel that connection and care…and with your Dad’s focus/priority more with religion, that absolutely can affect how secure you felt.

            Isn’t it strange how we can think things in childhood are “normal” that really are not? Besides looking within my own family, this has opened my eyes to all the homes I was in growing up (over at friends’ houses), and now I’m remembering so much more stuff I had forgotten about, where I’m thinking, “Oh my gawd! That was so not normal!!”

          6. Mercy says:

            Caroline, I’m sorry to here about your childhood friend. That would be devasting as an adult but as a child I can’t imagine how hard that was. You are right about childhood messages staying stuck inside us until we root them out. Hearing other readers stories and opinions has really helped me reflect on my own life. Questions have been brought up that I never would have thought to ask or thought applied to me personally. I love that hg let’s us voice our opinions (even if they are wrong or misguided) and let’s us have discussion about those opinions. Right or wrong there’s so much to learn from each other.

          7. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Thanks, sweetheart… and I agree, there’s always more for us to learn/ways to grow, Mercy. 🙂

          8. It Depends says:


            I find your comment, thought provoking. First, I don’t think a narcissist’s inability to change is a genetic predisposition. My research suggests (and I don’t find it definitive just yet) that over time, their choices to ignore their natural empathetic conscience in favor of power and control, actually rewires their brain and it’s chemistry and eventually, they lose the power to basically…how do I put this?…make decisions based on empathy because whatever empaths use in decision making, is no longer available to their brains.

            Thought provoking question……”Is it possible that this is an empaths false self used as a coping mechanisms Instead of our true self that should be able to process the rejection and move on?”……I will respond to this later when I have more time. I don’t believe we use things like “love conquers all” as a coping mechanism. However, to illustrate why I believe this, requires quite a lengthy response as I take your line of inquiry quite seriously and find it most interesting!

          9. NarcAngel says:

            It Depends
            Does your research include an incredible amount of focus on neurons by chance?

          10. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha.

          11. FYC says:

            Hi Mercy, just as a point of clarification on the theory of true/false self as a psychological development. My understanding is, in the non-disordered person, the false self is used as a filter to effectively operate in a social environment. In a disordered person, the false self is created too early in development and is relied upon too heavily (narcissism) or completely (schizoid including no recognition of a true self).

            So a normal or empathic person might use the false self to put their best foot forward (accommodation/adaptation) in an interview, or outright lie to save another from hurt by being too truthful. These examples are a slight to moderate degree of employment of false self.

            Narcissists as infants to toddlers experienced their true self as threatening to their survival. The NPD child relies on the false construct, but acknowledges the existence of a true self. So in the same settings, the narcissist might boldly lie about education, experience or falsify documents to secure the job. They would give a backhanded compliment or use sarcasm rather than having concern for another’s feelings (unless a compliment would serve a purpose).

            Going further down the scale, the APD person might smear or threaten a competing candidate or worse and relish their cleverness and the other’s pain. The APD person might deliver a cruel remark and take pleasure in the recipients reaction.

            I hope these examples clarify and not muddy the waters.

          12. Mercy says:

            FYC, thank you for your clarification. It blows my theory out of the water but if I don’t put it out there I won’t learn. I understand that, in a non disordered person, the false self is used as a filter in social settings. This made sense to me when I read your original comment. The idea that an empath rejects their true self took root because sometimes I think an empath’s bond or devotion to please their abuser is often mislabeled as love. After your clarification and more thought, I see that an empaths desire to please is not necessarily a rejection of their true self, it may just be learned behavior from past trauma. 

            After reading your comment I did some searching on the differences in NPD and APD. Want to talk about muddy waters! That fine line between the two is almost non-existent. I find it frustrating that most the information I find on the subject of NPD and other disorders is based on opinion with very little details of the facts used to form the opinion. The research that you post is appreciated.

          13. FYC says:

            Mercy, you are most welcome, and I understood your meaning.

            I think the reasons why an empath may stay too long in a non-supportive to abusive relationship are as follows: 1) Empathy leads us to faith in the influence that love will prevail (while love can be healing, no one can change another and a narcissist sees no need to change), 2) The instinct to support and heal those we love, 3) Low self esteem/self worth in the case of the CoD, 4) The tenacity we possess coupled with denial and cognitive dissonance, and 5) possible poor familial patterns being repeated, 6) shaming of the empath (your too sensitive, you take things the wrong way, etc—often said by a narc parent) when young creates a lack of trust in the empaths ability to trust their own judgement.

            All of these can be corrected for healthier choices if we employ logic and rely upon what we have learned here instead of on false hope. Acceptance is key.

            Your comment, “I find it frustrating that most the information I find on the subject of NPD and other disorders is based on opinion with very little details of the facts used to form the opinion.” I could not agree more. I currently am contemplating how this might be remedied.

          14. HG Tudor says:

            Direct them to my work.

          15. FYC says:

            HG, Of course I already refer all to your work. I am thinking on a much larger scale given my professional background. I will email at a later time.

          16. HG Tudor says:

            Noted. I shall email you also, further to your previous suggestions which remain extant and await my consideration.

          17. FYC says:

            Thanks HG. RE: email, no worries. I need more time as well.

          18. FYC says:

            Hello Mercy,
            I’m sorry it took me so long to get back to you on your question that resulted from your original comment:

            “…sometimes I think an empath’s bond or devotion to please their abuser is often mislabeled as love. After…more thought, I see that an empaths desire to please…may just be learned behavior from past trauma.”

            Here is what I found that seemed relevant:

            On over giving (from Psychology Today):

            Most over givers have exceptionally kind hearts and are incredibly caring by nature. When a person over gives from a generous, healthy place, it implies they have taken care of their own needs and are giving from a place of abundance and a full heart. Yet over giving is often sign of depletion and an inability to receive. When you over give, you may desire to be loved or appreciated or feel good about your self (low self esteem), or you may feel obligated to give (guilt/responsibility). Over giving is a form of self-sabotage. It leads to dissatisfaction and faulty expectations that go unfulfilled. It also invites over takers in response to the over giving. Over giving becomes toxic when you give in fear of loss.

            On trauma bonds and neurochemical addiction (compiled from additional Psychology today and Science Daily articles):

            When in a toxic romantic bond the empath will experience the neurochemistry of love and attachment (dopamine, endogenous opioids, corticotropin releasing factor and oxytocin), while the narcissist will not experience attachment, only infatuation chemicals (dopamine and cortisol and lower amounts of seratonin). The rush of infatuation if far shorter in duration and if not followed by attachment chemicals, the feelings of excitement, etc., come to an end. Not so for the attached person. This creates an unbalanced relationship where the attached person seeks connection, yet begins to receive only intermittent reinforcement, this encourages the victim to repeatedly attempt to receive the anticipated reward. The victim begins to rationalize and self-deceive to resolve the cognitive dissonance in an attempt to attain a calm state. Sadly, for women, oxytocin is contextually highly responsive to physical stressors. This neuropeptide causes us to attempt to reunite and repair (against all logic). For some, social connections with supportive loved ones outside the relationship can help counter balance this effect. Unfortunately, abusive people often try to isolate their partners.

        5. It Depends says:


          “Where” I’ve come across 2 empaths raising a narcissist in a good environment, I am not at liberty to divulge. Along with my personal experience with this situation, I am in contact with two elementary teachers who are interested in the phenomenon and we discuss things. (Admittedly, it is rare, one of the parents is “usually” a narcissist.). Thus, my entire point………There are usually exceptions to every general rule and I have seen this particular exception with my own eyes. Understand, every day of my life, for many years, I have been studying this subject.

          Growing up with narcissists, (one of them, a holy narcissist) my world made no sense. I was a child of curiosity and had to know “why” about EVERYTHING. Grownups would not explain things to me with logic and clear reasoning. I was expected to just believe what I was told and that was the end of it. (From parents and preachers to business people and schools, everyone expected me to believe obvious contradictions and dubious “facts” and would basically assault my tendencies toward logic, facts and the outcomes of deep thoughtful reasoning.

          Example: When basically everyone in my youthful world told me a snake was “literally” talking to the first woman on earth, Eve, and that because of what happened, I had to say a magic prayer to save my soul from some place called hell, I refused to bend my logic or sacrifice my reason, to what, in my opinion, was nonsense. I did not reject the notion of a spiritual side to life, (still believe in a Creator and spiritual side of life btw) only their completely illogical approach to it and their fanciful ideas and assertions.

          They never managed to break me and believe me, they hated me for it and I paid a high price for my refusal to accept their lies as truth. This is the foundations of my life and quest for the truth in all matters that I deem important. This is also the foundation of my tenacity, when I think I am right. My logic is not infallible and I will change my mind if I can find a better and more logical stance. However, someone (even 9/10’s of the psychological community) telling me something that goes against my personal experiences and my logical reasoning mind will not persuade me that the truth I have discovered is incorrect. How many people on this earth, at this moment, would still have me believing in talking snakes and convince me to pay them “tithes” so they can enforce their lies to me each week? I hope you see my point. Truth is truth, even if a minority of only one, possesses it.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            ““Where” I’ve come across 2 empaths raising a narcissist in a good environment, I am not at liberty to divulge.”

            Means – I haven’t been able to think fast enough to make this part up.

          2. Twilight says:


            What in the Sam hell did I just waste my time in reading. Flash backs of another (ED), narcissist and empath make a choice to be who they are. Are you freaking kidding me……THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL OR GODS GREEN EARTH I WOULD HAVE EVER CHOSEN TO BE A CONTAGION, knowing what another is feeling and damn close to what they are thinking is painful and hurtful to a child. When you know they are lying to your face yet you hold on to hope they actually want to be friends then the truth is revealed.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed, has the smell of ED OT – inaccurate beliefs stated to be based on research which never manifests, inability to accept evidence and logic, responding with accusations of manipulation in order to deflect from own forensic logical shortcomings.

          4. Oracle says:

            I am not nearly as smart as you or the other’s commenting on this topic, but i can speak from the perspective of one that did choose. However, I imagine it does not occur often.
            I have never known safety, security, or unconditional love. I was kidnapped at the age of 4 and subjected severe abuse. I will not detail if that is alright. I was found and taken back to my mother, but gre up under her mental illness even though she tried. She really did. And her husbands cruelty. I was beat the 1st time at age 5 so severely that i lost control of my bodily functions and deficated and urinated on myself. When I showed my mother the open wounds and blood blister all over my body, she looked shocked, but told me i should have done the task faster. I grew up in constant fight or flight. I was always watching out for and preparing for the next attack. Psychological abuse was to tell me I was stupid, ugly, worthless the list goes on. I was isolated away from my mother, and my life threatened if i ever told of what was happening to me. I went thru a period as a bully. I had no control in my world and need to exert control somewhere. Thats the onlly way i know how to explain it. I am not proud of it, but it is the real true reason i felt at the time. I recall a conscience decsision made on my part several times, it was not just one time. I could be numb which i had learned how to do to cope, and not feel anything, or i could feel the pain, but also feel all the good things too. the numb i did choose to survive at times. until I stopped choosing it some where around 8 or 9. It has made for a very painful life, and i often wonder if i chose wrong. I am sorry to say, I coinsciesly chose to feel things. however, i do not know about being a narcassist. I may very well be one. Although after hearing the entry entittled are you a narcassist, I am not according to how Mr. Tudor explained it. I did not trust mr. tudor in the beginning, but i have to say I do now. He has not steered me wrong yet.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            You are not a narcissist and it follows you made no choice to become one. I would suggest that you became numb as a self-defence mechanism and you then became aware that this was what you were doing so you made that choice. It is similar to how I became a narcissist (before I knew that and thus I had no choice) but then I recall making choices to behave in a certain way, but this was a consequence of the already rooted narcissism.

          6. NarcAngel says:

            I’m sorry that you experienced that. No child (or anyone period) should have to. We do whatever we need to do to cope at the time, and as a child your options are extremely limited. You may have done things or made choices that you were not proud of or now feel you regret. That does not necessarily make you a narcissist – only a survivor. I think you’re right to trust Mr Tudor in that you are not one.

          7. Oracle says:

            Thank you for your compassion. I’m a mess of an adult but underestimated i find. I’m just trying to learn what “normal” people do. Is there such a thing?
            And yes i started out very suspicious of Mr.Tudor but at no point has he been wrong, nor have i felt he crossed any lines in his forum. I keep checking in to learn something new.:)

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Caution is understandable and sensible and you used your suspicion in a constructive, defensive manner rather than an aggressive one (which sometimes happen with new arrivals) and your open-minded approach has seen you understand the value of my work, this place and without adverse consequence. HG approves.

          9. Oracle says:

            Thank you mr. Tudor. I went from being a self reliant, force to reckon with individual to being confused lost, and afraid of my own shadow. thank you for helping people like me to learn how to navigate not only the narcassist entaglement, but to learn about ourselves and have healthier ways of coping; and finding balance in our emotional and logical sides of our thinking. I felt angry when i first began reading your passages. I was so supsicious of your motives. then you pointed out that your transparent about your motives. you hide nothing in that regard. This is business, and your not about to compramise that in any way. my trust level is very low for good reason, but things are finally beginning to make sense again. I am not insane, well maybe, but not as crazy as he is. 🙂 I am not saying you are crazy. My narc has many more issues than just being a narc, and he is full blown bat sh*t crazy. I am glad i found your blog and the other people here that are part of your community.

          10. Mercy says:

            Oracle, words cannot express how sorry I am to hear what you’ve been through. All I can say is that you are safe and wanted here.

          11. Oracle says:

            Thank you mercy. I get intimidated sometimes. I am intelligent but with all that is going on i feel inferior which is no one fault here. It helps to hear I’m welcome here. I learn new things everytime i read the posts that help alot. I just have to put it all into action and break free. 🙂

          12. FYC says:

            Oracle, I know that to say I am so sorry for the brutality you experienced is meaningless as it changes nothing, but I am overwhelmed with sadness and anger at what you endured. I hope you know you are loved now, unconditionally.

          13. Lisa says:

            Can anyone point me in the right direction for what ED narcissist means? I’m trying to follow along because I’m super duper loving this conversation.

          14. K says:

            ED was a previous poster, if you read the first comment on this link, it will explain it a bit.


          15. Lisa says:

            Thank you for sharing that, Oracle. It gives me hope for my own children that I wasn’t too late.

          16. K. I viewed the link you have us re: ED OT. And, I sounded out the letters like HG suggested, but I was still nonplussed. However, I had an idea: I then tried sounding out each word as they would sound in British Received Pronunciation, and I perceived that the letters together sound like the word: IDIOT. I felt the rush of success! I hope I am correct.

          17. HG Tudor says:

            You are

          18. K says:

            Ha ha ha…you are correct indeed!

          19. Lisa says:

            Thanks K!

          20. K says:

            My pleasure Lisa!

    3. It Depends says:


      I like the way you think. Extremely good point! I’ll answer you on it later today or tomorrow.

      1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        It Depends. I need that answer as soon as possible. It should be interesting!

  27. Nymphedora says:

    Ah, but as you told the good doctors, you never consider any relationship to be truly ended/over seen from your point of wiew. Could that not be considered a form of attachment? Perhaps not in the way one would think of normal emotionel attachment…… but still. Makes me wonder about the mechanics as always.

    Happy easter greatings oh dark heartet one.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No. We attach you to us, not the other way around.

      1. Oracle says:

        Mr. Tudor,
        Yes we understand that you attach them to you for fuel. However, you grow tired of them all at some stage. It appears you have a need to have them attached to you until death. Regardless of motive, i, like nymphadora, think youn might be attached just not for reasons a neurotypical or empath might.
        For me however, the idea of this emptiness for you makes me very sad for you. So i might hope your attached to alleviate my worry for your solitude in this world. I’m very sad reading this. I’m sad for the little boy that someone hurt so badly. I’m sorry mr. Tudor.

      2. Nymphedora says:

        I understand that. Still I wonder, I always do. I do not mean an emotionel attachment in the normal sence. Narc = no emotions, I get that.

        If a narc does not consider any relationship to ever be over, does that not in fact describe the simple nature behind the concept of attachment?
        In the eyes of the other person the relationship, whatever it was, is in fact over, it no longer exists. Let’s say they succeded with no contact and all that jazz offcourse.
        Could that not in fact mean, that the narc in reality is the one attached. Albeit they may not actually agree on that point.

        Just sharing a train of thought from my ever thinking brain. I sorry, I am just truly, deeply fascinatet by the inner workings of people.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          No because the concept of ownership is separate to attachment.

          I own my car. I am not attached to it.

          1. Lisa says:

            *sighs and rolls eyes at herself*
            …. I’m attached to my car.

          2. NarcAngel says:

            “I own my car. I am not attached to it”

            Your narcky seatbelt claims otherwise.

          3. HG Tudor says:

            I don’t wear one.

          4. NarcAngel says:

            I should have known that you wouldn’t.

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