The Bare Necessity

the-bare-necessity

 

I didn’t ask for this you know. I know you did not either but for once let’s not make this about you and let’s talk about me, yes? I never asked to be created so that each and every day I must gather the fuel that is necessary for my existence. Yes, I must eat, I must drink water and I must breathe the air, just as you do, but for me I have another staple requirement of daily living. I must have fuel. Did you choose to always needs food and water? No, you did not. Neither did I. I did not choose to require this fuel either but without it I will cease to exist. What I have created in order to survive in this world will come toppling down and that will be the end of me. How far would you go to eat? At first it is simple enough is it not? You go to the grocery store or you order online from the supermarket and acquire the ingredients to make a meal or receive a pre-cooked one. You chop, you peel, you mash and you stir and you make that meal. A hundred thousand different recipes to choose from. Instead you may remove the packaging, pierce the cling film and pop it in the over or the microwave. Either way you have food, ready to eat and to sustain you. But what if you had no money to acquire this food, how would you quell the rumblings in your stomach? Perhaps you might ask to be given food from neighbours, from food banks or left overs at supermarkets. It is demeaning but you need to eat don’t you, so what does a little pride matter so long as your stomach is filled? However, what if that charity ends? What if the benevolence of friends and neighbours dries up? What would you do then? What if there are no friends and no neighbours? Would you look to survive on berries you find by the roadside, drink the water from a stream? Would that sustain you for long or would you tire of that? Would you scavenge through the bins outside a supermarket for food that has been thrown out but is perfectly edible? Is that stealing? Perhaps not. Would you cope with the stares of pity and disdain from those who saw you surfing a dumpster?

Would you steal from the shops in order to quell the hunger pangs? Snatch a loaf from a bakery, sneak into a house and steal that cooling pie or rifle through the cupboards in order to find something to eat. What if there is no edible food in the dumpster, would you remove the mould and eat what you find, risking illness? What if the supermarkets ran out of food and there was nowhere to steal it from? Would you scavenge from the orchards until that fruit ran out? Would you catch fish or hunt a lamb or grab a chicken in order to cook and eat it over an open fire? What if the usual sources of meat began to vanish, having fallen prey to starving wild animals following the collapse of civilisation, what then? Would you try new sources? Would you, driven by hunger hunt down and eat a sparrow or a robin? How about an owl? Seagull? Would you slaughter a fox in order to eat its meat? Where would you stop? Would you eat another human being in order to survive? When needs must where would you draw the line? How far would you go to feed yourself and your loved ones? Begging, growing you own, stealing, savagery, cannibalism? Do you have a limit or when the chips are down and your stomach is knotted with the agony of starvation would there be no limit? How far would you go? Would you fight another person for a packet of rice? Beat someone up in order to steal their hoard of windfalls? Would you consider their loss of their food source and their injuries an acceptable consequence of your own necessary survival? Would this become collateral damage in the pursuit of survival? Abhorrent as it may sound, I should imagine, when the need really arises, that you would go beyond the unpalatable in order to survive.

Now replace food with the need for fuel and you will understand that I have no choice other than to gather this fuel from different sources and in different ways throughout the course of each day. The consequences which arise may seem regrettable to you but they are purely the result of this need for me to gain fuel. I did not ask to have to do this, but the way I have been created makes it so. In the same way that you would fight to ensure your own survival, rather than curling up and dying in a hole, so must I. Does that make me what would be regarded as a bad person for just doing what I need to in order to exist? I suggest that it does not. I know that what I do has consequences for others. I am not blind nor am I a fool. I understand fully the devastation that I cause as I tear through someone else’s life like a whirlwind, sucking everything in, hurling it about and then discarding it broken and shattered. I have heard the complaints, the stories, the recollections and the accounts. I have heard the cries of dismay, the wails of misery, the screams of terror and the slow sobs of pain. I know what is caused by my actions but what choice do I have? I do not set out to achieve these things but they must always arise as a consequence of what I must do.

I feel no guilt nor remorse. I am devoid of those emotions. Another consequence of the way I have been created. I feel no shame in these actions, no pity for those who suffer from my behaviours and no sense of empathy for those who are remorselessly cut down by my machinations. I am not burdened by such emotions so I do not toss and turn at night, I do not have my sleep peppered by nightmares of torment, I do not sit in anguish and seek absolution for everything I have done and everything that I am to do. Those concepts are not applicable to me. What I do is invite you to understand me. I want you to understand what I am, what I must do and what arises from this and if you were in my shoes then you would do the same. This does not make me a bad person does it? I am a good man who is having to do a bad job. Yes?

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110 Comments

  1. Hi HG
    I was watching a programme on TV on what makes a person a psychopath
    Many if not all the traits you describe in the greater are the same as a psychopath

    One that doesn’t fit with you do is being Shallow.
    I don’t feel you are shallow, God knows I am surrounded by plenty of those that are.
    Shallow people tend to talk about surface annoying things their hair. Skin
    figure Yawn.
    Is there a big difference between a greater narc and psychopath.

    Yours Kiki

  2. Abe, HG is the expert in identifying ET, not me of course.

    In any event, my understanding is that ET has one aim: to keep you engaging with the narcissist. I have no intention of engaging or obsessing over them BUT I cannot accept to be the loser, the defeated.
    I am punishing them after all. I am starving them of fuel, character traits and residual benefits (while I move on with my life and get sh*t done).

    But then again, HG is the expert and he might see this as a manifestation of emotional thinking.

    1. I am no expert either, and I am also guilty of thinking this way…

      My reasoning goes like this: the ultimate aim should be not to care about the narcissist in any way. As you probably know, various forms of indirect engaging, like remembering, checking FB, and so on, are still ET. As long as my aim is to have a certain influence on the narcissist (in this case, revenge), then I am most probably still in the domain of ET.

      So yes, go NC. But the right reason should be because we want to feel better, free, healed. Not because we want the narcissist to feel miserable.

      Anyway, as long as this way of thinking helps with maintaining the rest of NC, I guess it’s still a step forward. But recognize it for what it is and never lose sight of your final destination – not caring at all.

      1. Abe. I had been having difficulty understanding how ignoring Narcissists and escaping them and establishing No Contact with them, punish Narcissists. Even if the Narcissist manages to carry on in such circumstances in a nonchalant and unconcerned manner: the Narcissist is still wounded over all this. Two readers on this site, Mommypino and SMH, keep giving me examples from their own experiences that it is the case that ignoring Narcissists and escaping from them and going no contact with them is a punishment to Narcissists, largely because our attention provides Narcissists with fuel, and without our fuel, they have no power to run. And Narcissists want those that they are and have been entangled with, to be on the shelf at the ready, in case of future fueling needs, until we or they die, HG Tudor explains. They contracted with us in their minds, in this manner, forever. So to them, even if they are entangled with someone else, or someone new, to the Narcissist we hopefully are like a spare tire that is kept in the trunk of a vehicle. Or extra cans of gasoline that are stored in a safe place, on a boat. Or, like any other fail-safe that is stored and kept at the ready. Because, our tried and true fuel is like oxygen to them, and they remember it, and as a living Being, without our fuel, or the fuel of others, they will gasp and then die, so to speak. And, so, a Hoover is always possible. When HG Tudor told me that a Hoover was possible in my case, because the Narc I entangled with at work had many appliances and a IPPS and other IPSSs and a DLS, and I was just a colleague NIPSS, and he is always well fueled, I would think, I would have bet literal money that I personally would not be Hoovered as I disengaged from him, in my particular low ranking fuel matrix circumstances, and so I was shocked that I was Hoovered twice by the Narcissist, because the Hoover Execution Criteria was met after I had entered his Sphere of thought for whatever bizarre reason, and the bar was low to reach me, because we had not argued or anything like that, (to make a long story short, I was disengaging from him, as a NIPSS, because my feelings for him were getting so out of control to the point that I fell quite psychologically and emotionally ill and listless), and I was Hoovered by him, and I now understand how all this works. And, I was Hoovered by proxy, by his evil-acting Lieutenants, as well. It is not emotional thinking to believe that leaving them without your fuel is a punishment, even it is a light one because they are being fueled elsewhere. It is still absolutely the case. And, they never forget you, remember the contract in their minds? Even 20 or more so years later, I hear. It is emotional thinking to not believe this. And ones guard will be down, to not believe this. Always be resisting. I admit, that I had a tough time with this, for some reason, but I am there now.

        1. PSE,

          I did not say that NC is not punishing them. I am aware of this.
          What I said is we should not be concerned or glad about that.
          It’s just none of our business how the narcissist feels as a consequence of our NC.

          But well, it’s more like “it shouldn’t be”, because I also find myself sometimes hoping that my NC hurts her, or being glad that it does… 🙂

          1. Abe. Thanks for your honest response. I really appreciate it. I have had enough of pretense and faux stoicalness and malign critique to last a lifetime, already. And, I understand what you mean by how we Should Feel about it all, as well. However, that takes more time, for many of us. or at least for some of us. We have to do what we need to do logically, first, and hopefully the desired feelings of not-being-affected catch up, at some point. That is where I am at in disengaging from the Narcissist. Logic first. Actually, I do not want to punish the Narcissist at all, in my particular personal case. I admire a lot about him, and just must do so at a distance, as one reader said on a different post., and probably not at all, is what is best for me, as I am working to do. I did not have the emotional and psychological strength to admire him up close, as I tried to do and wanted to do. He had too much of an attractive and delicious persona or construct, for my stability, as a NIPSS. I thought I wanted more from him, until I felt ill and I came to Narcsite and I learned, like many others in my place in the fuel Matrix, that we actually got off much easier than those that went full throttle with Narcissists, so to speak. But, on top of all this, he is still a Narcissist. So, I am getting where I need to be. It still hurts though, tremendously. However, I feel much, much, much better now. And, I am glad now that I am viewed as just an appliance by him, because I so have to disengage from him to be healthy, and since I do not like to hurt anyone, it aids me to disengage in peace.

  3. Hmm yes. I’m confused. I personally don’t feel that I need to change my behaviour in order to ‘fit around’ a Narc. Once you know, you go for me means, total disengagement. I’m still the same me. My behaviour hasn’t altered. They are not in my life.

    This is a dangerous area as HG himself draws attention to with his use of the conditional ‘may’ when knowingly dealing with a Narc.

    Again it brings up another really important point that if you have a weaponised Empath AND a Greater – so two humans who are both fully self-aware –
    is a relationship possible? Such a situation would be so incredibly rare. In fact, it got me thinking of the statistical likelihood of it occurring.

    Using HG’s own figures and his work – Greaters are likely to want to ensnare a SE.

    Greaters – 5% of the 17% of all N’s that’s 1/20 x 1/6 = 1/120

    SE’s – 10% of the 25% of all the E’s that’s 1/10 x 1/4 = 1/40

    Therefore a coupling between the two would happen in 1/120 x 1/40 = 1/4800 or 0.021% of the general population. Incredibly small. However, I have made assumptions.

    The first is that not all SE’s are weaponised. Very, very few are.
    The second is that would a Greater WANT to change? I perceive that Greaters operate on the macro and the micro environment as a who, local or global. Ultras are surely operating globally.

    With point 2, only a Ultra again would be capable of curtailing their malignancy. Point 1, the SE would have to be very sure in terms of ET and ER plus be fully cogniscent of the way an N operates.

    Now we are getting into incredibly incredibly tiny odds.

    1. The odds would be somewhat skewed favorably (if “favorably” actually fits in this context) by the fact that the two attract each-other. There’s also gender and sexual orientation to be taken into account. So it gets really complicated to compute the odds…
      A weaponized SE would probably not want to deal with a narcissist, whatever kind of them.

      Why do you think this is “a really important point”?

      1. Bit surprised you can’t see it Abe but you are correct, I did not fully explain myself.

        Because it would represent an evolution in interpersonal dynamics that will not have happened too many times before.

        I agree the odds are difficult to calculate. The other factor is that I perceive a Greater will be actively ‘hunting’ for a SE whereas spotting a Greater is highly tricky because of their natures.

        “A weaponized SE would probably not want to deal with a narcissist, whatever kind of them.”

        Speaking AS a W – SE, that’s not true. IF the right dynamic came along I would consider it. I would even be very excited by it. Probably because i’m intensely curious and daft as a brush!

        1. The way you explain it means it’s very interesting and exciting. I agree.

          I’m not sure about its importance though. Could be, if this proves of a certain scientific value, like, I don’t know… finding a cure for narcissism?… or something like this. 🙂

          My skepticism says a relationship like this would still be doomed. I’m no SE though, so I can’t really assess what the most probable outcome would be, or even imagine what it might look like…

          1. Thanks Abe and yes I agree it’s exciting.

            You see it is possible that I am functioning as a NISS for a friend in London. It’s possible that really IS self-aware. I am entirely content with this relationship as when we speak (and our convos can go o for hours) he is hands down one of the most intellectually fascinating people I have met and one who has given me enormous insight into my own behaviour wrt ET and ER.

        2. Hi Renarde, I’m curious, why would you ever knowingly consider being in a relationship with a narcissist? Maybe you’re not really as weaponised as you think you are. I mean what is the point of weaponising if your just going to go back to the same dynamic just with a different person? How is that beneficial to you and to the narcissist? To me it sounds very counterproductive and antithetical to bring ‘weaponised’.

          1. I’m speaking hypothetically here. If you look above, I’ve done some back of a fag packet calculations of the chances of this happening and it is vanishingly small.

            No, I would never have any kind of relationship with a narc who was not aware.

            To correct you; I understand weaponisation very well indeed. Thank you for your comment.

          2. Hi Renarde,

            I apologize if my earlier comment was formulated in an insensitive way. There was something in your post that triggered it. I know that you know what weaponising is and I will even add that you most probably know more about it than I do since you have been here longer than I have. I had an issue when you said that you are weaponised but at the same time you say that you will consider being ensnared by a self-aware narcissist if the right dynamic presents itself. I thought that weaponising is fortifying ourselves so that we will not get entangled with another narcissist again. I am confused at the message that you are sending here about what being weaponised is. Are you saying that a weaponised empath can handle being in a relationship with a narcissist as long as he/she is a weaponised Super Empath and he/she is a self aware narcissist? Do you think that a weaponised Super Empath can control a self-aware narcissist while they are in a relationship together? Why do you find this exciting? Do you think that this relationship can be mutually beneficial? What do you mean by ‘the right dynamic’? I am under an impression that HG doesn’t recommend for any empath (regardless of any school it belongs) to be in a relationship with any narcissist because it will be against any empath’s best interest.

      2. Abe. It is interesting. In a society where females are trained to control their emotions, such as in Asia, I think the male narc. would have more difficulty obtaining fuel, and there is the possibility of more female narcissists in such cultures. Interestingly, more men suffer from suicide and depression in those cultures, which may actually be an undiagnosed fuel/supply crises. But, in western culture, where females are taught to be more emotional, and narcissism is rarely addressed, there are plenty of pickings for the male narcissists, because females are in general ignorant of the red flags, no matter what type of empath they are. And a symbiotic attraction exists between empaths and narcissists. And, likewise, now that men are encouraged to get closer to their feminine side, there are more pickings for the female narcissists to scent out more easily, and female narcissism is even more hidden and discussed even less by society, and more taboo, because females are supposed to be kind and gentle and sexually loyal, according to most stereotypes. And so emphatic men are even more ignorant about the pathos of female narcissism and thus become ensnared. Therefore, emotional availability, natural mutual attraction, plus ignorance about narcissism, and ignorance about the red flags of narcissism equals plenty of a variety of empathetic fruit to be plucked for narcissists. Wash, rinse and repeat. Therefore, all schools and cadres of empaths have a high risk of being entangled with some type of a Narc., because empaths do love to reach out and touch someone. How long the entanglements last will depend on the particular parties involved, including what character traits and residual benefits are in play, and what else is going in the narcissists` fuel matrix at any given time. No 2 cases will probably be the same.

        1. PSE,

          Yes, your observations are indeed interesting, and I think you are also quite right.

          In the context of the current conversation, it also means that the probability of that specific SE vs GN encounter is also suffering from variations in geographical and cultural distribution. 🙂

  4. “I want you to understand what I am, what I must do and what arises from this and if you were in my shoes then you would do the same. This does not make me a bad person does it? I am a good man who is having to do a bad job. Yes?”

    Come on, HG… Don’t make this kind of jokes (although they’re quite funny, I must admit)… Somebody might actually believe this! 🙂

  5. There is a lot of things a person, an individual will do in order to survive. Comparing a person’s need for food and what it will take in order to successfully nourish themselves to sustain them and prevent starvation and the possible starvation of their loved ones should not be comparable to Narcissism. I believe it’s a choice. An instinctive one at that. Choosing to use and abuse people for their own selfish purposes and aggrandizement. I don’t “need” to abuse people in order to “survive”. This psychopathy doesn’t sit well.

  6. I have some understanding for your situation. However, firstly I don’t think you would literally die without any fuel. Maybe you would become depressed or maybe even insane but you wouldn’t die. And secondly I find it difficult to believe that there are no effective therapies for this disorder when there are therapies for many other mental disorders. I mean you learned to cope using narcissism as defence mechanism, so it’s mainly a learned behaviour, why can this not be “unlearned” with time?

    1. Because it was not consciously learned, it was a self-defence mechanism that arose instinctively.

    2. Jenna
      Narcissism isn’t learned. It is all instinct. It is woven into their being and it is the very essence of who they are. Listen to them speak, the words and the tone they use, their mannerisms and facial expressions. It is blatant, if you know what to look for.

      Reverse it. No one handed us the book: Compassion for Dummies. Our empathy is wired into us just like NPD is wired into HG. Our empathy is blatant and the narcissist instinctively knows it.

        1. Thank you Mercy
          By flipping everything, I am able to understand narcissism easier.

          Motor empathy, a.k.a. mirroring, is a skill that psychopaths, narcissists and empaths have.

          1. Renarde
            In order to understand the narcissistic POV better, I turned it around and pretended I was the narcissist and HG became the empath. It worked very well.

          2. K! I just spat out my coffee when you said ‘pretended HG is an Empath!

            I do take your point though.

          3. Renarde
            Ha ha ha…that was the fun part! I was the doer and he was the done to.

          4. Renarde
            NarcAngel sent me a Tudor blow-up doll for Xmas 2017! I’ve been norty for a while. x

            Narc Angel
            DECEMBER 6, 2017 AT 00:32
            K

            Re: Blow up Tudor

            It could not be boxed due to being full of air so has been shuttled off to the compartmentalisation dept to be prepared for shipping. They offer that a particular area refuses to be deflated and this will cause a slight delay, but is not a future fake and will arrive in full seduction mode.

            PS Cuddling not included but can be added for an extra fee only during seduction.

          5. Oh fair play on NA. She’s always bang on the money!

            The appendage is of course his ‘big’ head as opposed to his ‘little’ head? I’ve been worrying about the big one for a while now and door widths.

            I shall be convening an emergency meeting of the ‘Tudorites’ as it’s been on my mind for some time now.

          6. K

            I just stepped into his shoes……trust me that was one hell of a ride to enlightenment

          7. Twilight, I am not sure I understand what you mean, but I have been meaning to ask you if you have felt HG’s energy or “core” during your consultations with him, if you care to share about that.

          8. I realise my question was not well formulated. Would you mind sharing about what you feel or see whenever you consult with HG, Twighlight?

          9. Hello Lou

            I have spoken of how the different frequencies (tones) of his voice has affected me. Feeling like I am being caressed under my skin or scalpel blade being lightly ran over my skin, I see/feel darkness that can range from a mist to a blanket as dark as being deep in a cave with no light.

          10. K, I had to do some reading on motor empathy after your comment. It’s very interesting that this is a common trait.

            As far as understanding how a narcissist can be who they are, I’ve known that it is instinct. I’ve read it 100 times here. I knew it was the truth, but when you said reverse it something went “click” in my mind. I understand the mechanics of it now. Funny how that works.

          11. Mercy
            Narcissist and empaths have many similarities. I never think: Oh, I am going to kind, nice, compassionate, etc. those traits are hardwired into us and that is instinct.

            We do not choose to be kind; it is part of our DNA.

          12. P.S.
            You are right Mercy, somethings just clicks. That is what it was like for me.

          13. K, you have given me many click moments. I always appreciate you help

          14. K,

            Excuse my insistence, but I don’t get this “reversing” thing. Can you please expand a bit?

          15. Abe Moline
            In order to understand the narcissist better, reverse it and look at your own behaviour. We do not actively choose to be understanding, loving, honest or kind.

            Our empathic traits are woven into our DNA, that is instinct and it just comes naturally to us (without thought). Our empathy is blatant, if you know what to look for.

            We do not have free will or choice. If you think you have a choice than remove your compassion and replace it with indifference, remove your love and replace it with hatred. You can’t, no matter how hard you try.

            The empath cannot be a serial killer, rapist or non-violent psychopath because he isn’t wired to behave like one.

            Reverse it: the serial killer, rapist or non-violent psychopath cannot be empathic because they are not wired to behave like an empath.

            We (the empath and the narcissist) are machined in a very specific way and it is fixed. We have no choice.

          16. Most “normal” people have motor empathy.

            The difference with the narcissist is in what s/he lacks, namely, affective empathy.

          17. K,

            1. First, let me say that this is one of the most interesting discussions I’ve seen here (and also the part continued below the point where I’m posting).
            Thank you all who contributed! I’m really excited to read all your well-thought comments!

            2. I think I’m starting to understand what you mean.
            I was expecting something like you were able to experience some sort of narcissism-ness by this perspective reversal. But I think you mean that the experience is similar in that both empaths and narcissists can’t choose and cannot change certain traits. We cannot refuse the presence of empathy, they cannot refuse the absence of it.
            Digressing, what if the absence of empathy was called something (like expathy? 🙂) and we were the deficient ones, lacking expathy?
            The idea is that we can, by this inversion, experience the somewhat abstract feeling of not being able to change something about ourselves, similar to somebody born blind who cannot imagine colors. Or like a narcissist that cannot feel empathy.
            Another way to put it is that we can’t experience narcisissm, but we can experience the experience of narcisissm. Sort of a meta-experience, if that makes any sense…
            I am a bit rambling, I know… I have an image in my mind, but cannot express it fully.

            3. Where would you place the normals in this equation?

            4. Don’t you think this is something that a Lesser or Mid Range could never comprehend? They see themselves as empathic, while they are not, so all this would probably make no sense to them.

            So many questions and possibilities open up… Thanks again!

      1. K,
        Your points are very interesting. You say, “our empathy is wired into us just like NPD is wired into HG”. Both empathy and narcissism is instinctive. I understand that.

        Narcissism is instinctive and wasn’t learned. It arose as a self-defence mechanism. Ok, that makes sense and, to a compassionate and open mind, it’s even cause to understand the narcissist and appreciate his actions and instincts. At a stretch, it’s even cause to intellectually “forgive” the reptilian survival instincts and have compassion for them.

        Empathy is instinctive and wasn’t learned either. However, the empathic person is required to change their instinctive nature, adapt to the narcissist’s neverending and unrelenting lies, manipulations and machiavellian mind-games. Either that or “get out stay out”. It’s the empath’s choice.

        So, if you have a good job and you’ve worked hard to be successful at it, if your boss is narcissistic, your best course of action is to find another job. If you have a family of origin and a home that you should feel is there to nurture, protect, welcome and love you, if your parent is a narcissist, you should instil “no contact” because that’s the only way to stay healthy.

        If your narcissistic parent has worked hard from day one to crush your spirit and bend your will to their control, as an empathic person, you need to ‘understand’ that they’re doing it out of ‘instinct’ and they had no choice.

        But the empath has choice, even though their ‘instinct’ was not learned and was not asked for.

        No contact is not possible in a world where people are becoming more and more narcissistic. Narcissistic behaviour is even applauded as being ‘kick-ass’ and ‘fierce’.

        How do you tell the American population to have “no contact” with their president? Should they all move to another country?

        Telling an empath person that they need to change, while the narcissist has no choice because that’s “the way they were made” sounds like a cop-out to me. Yet another way to make the empathic person do all of the emotional heavy-lifting, while the narcissist sits back and smiles his duping smile while gloating over the self-serving power and control he has.

        No. Enough. It’s not power or control or a legacy. It’s a weak, self-serving cop-out.

        I know I’ll probably be censored by saying this, but it’s the honest truth of what I think. I’ve had enough of ‘adapting’ to the weakness of narcissists.

        1. There is no censoring here. Perhaps you meant censured. I do not censure, I correct inaccuracies rather than issue harsh criticism.

          Your points are understandable WN but being led down the road of thinking ‘why should I be the one who has to change for the narcissist’ is emotional thinking hijacking your narcissistic trait of pride and empathic trait of fairness and leads to the taking of unnecessary risk. There is quite a lot of detail revolving around this issue and rather than look to expand on this in a comment which may not be seen by most readers and to avoid back and forth piecemeal debate, there will be one, possibly two articles appearing shortly which encompass this through these two points :-

          1. Total No Contact should always be sought. There may be some ‘wriggle room’ (and it is a MAY) where there is a lockdown across various forms of engagement so that one form of engagement (with caveats) MAY be acceptable given the GENUINE problems arise in locking down that one form of engagement. I will expand on this in the article.

          2. Rigidity of approach to behaviour, thoughts and actions is fatal to survival and is a product of emotional thinking. Put simply, the alligator cannot survive in a cold climate, does it hunt there? No, it does not.

          1. HG, thank you for your reply, it IS appreciated.
            I meant ‘censored’ and not ‘censured’. You have the final say in moderating readers’ comments here on the blog and therefore whether or not comments are published is at your discretion.

            I realise my comment to K was made with a fair amount of ’emotional thinking’, but it was also made with a lot of logic too. I find it ultimately unacceptable to say that narcissists operate from ‘instinct’ and therefore simply ‘cannot change’.

            The empathic person also operates from ‘instinct’, yet it is taken as a ‘given’ that the empathic person is fully able to reformulate their attitude and thinking and change their personality, life-history, family-life, and how they behave each day in other social relationships.

            I completely understand that your advice is helping many people and I applaud you for that and I am personally very grateful. I agree that ‘no contact’ is the best approach and that rigidity of approach is fatal to survival. Indeed, I have instilled no contact and I have changed my own behaviour dramatically because it was the only way to improve my own situation. I am not disputing your advice HG. I am very grateful for it.

            My irritation and exasperation is based on the premise that the narcissist ‘cannot’ change. In other words, this means they are free to keep doing what they do whilst everyone else must change because of them.

            You yourself have stated that you see no reason or feel no need to change because your behaviour is ‘rewarding’ and gives you what you want.

            Your *current* adult behaviour is not *directly* based on you having a matrinarc and an abusive past. Yes, your past instilled the instinct in you to be a narcissist, however, the progressive ‘rewards’ and power you gained from years and years of you being a narcissist has brought you to the current point in your life where it’s easier and ‘rewarding’ to keep being a narcissist. Your behaviour is based on the fact that you can get away with it and have the power and other means to keep doing it unfazed.

            It’s not my ‘narcissistic trait of pride and empathic trait of fairness’ that’s making me say these things. It’s the ‘unasked for’ hijacking of my life and the severe difficulties in simply being able to live normally as a result of narcissists. This was caused by being in a fog of confusion for decades mainly due to being gaslighted and invalidated from a young age.

            It’s simply irritating to keep hearing that narcissists operate from instinct and have no choice, and that ‘victims’ should accept that narcissists actually ‘add’ value to the world.

          2. Hello WN, thank you for your considered response and I understand your point of view and I also understand how this will indeed prove irritating and I accept that is irritating for you. I am pleased to note you have made adaptations to improve your own situation and I applaud that.

            As I was stating to a client the other day :-
            ” I completely agree that the situation with the narcissist is not fair. We are agreed. We don’t need to discuss that further. Now, what are you going to do, with my help, to minimise this impact on you.”
            Being ensnared by our kind is cruel, unfair, irritating etc etc. You and any others are entirely justified in stating as such. Once you have articulated that and been heard, it should be done once, anything more is unnecessary and redundant and your energies should be applied to something constructive namely GOSO.

          3. Thank you HG. Yes, you’re right. It’s a waste of energy and time to keep railing against the unfairness of narcissists. Complaining about it doesn’t get you anywhere. Expecting them to change or hoping they will also doesn’t get you anywhere.

            Thank you for listening to my complaints and for acknowledging my frustration and irritation. It helps to be heard and understood. It may not seem like much to you, but it really does help.

            The best course of action is to work on my own self, and that means changing my past behaviours and learning from you, the commenters here and other sources.

            You are also correct in saying that it is my narcissistic sense of pride and empathic sense of fairness that is standing in my way. I have always believed that being friendly, courteous and inclusive in general to *everyone* is a good way to be. I feel that not doing that is rude and I don’t want to appear rude. I guess that’s pride. I am going to be more discerning and assertive even though it may seem rude to some.

            Also, I am not a walking justice system. I can’t create “fairness” with my own bare hands. Each person is responsible for their own experience and to adapt to what is happening to them. Sometimes it’s simply none of my business and I am going to keep reminding myself of that.

            As always, Thank You very much for your help.

          4. HG
            Survival in my world is paramount and that means: run, run as fast a you can and get far, far away.

          5. It might help to think of No Contact as a form of punishment, not just a way of ‘dealing with it’. That’s what I do.

            I hate feeling powerless and passive. I have to, at least in my mind, turn the situation around and gain a position of strength.

          6. EmP,

            I’m afraid “thinking of No Contact as a form of punishment” is also an insidious form of ET.

          7. WiserNow, These articles may give you further insight into defense mechanisms:

            https://www.psychalive.org/paradox-psychological-defenses/

            https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/shame/201211/narcissism-and-other-defenses-against-shame

            Several scholarly articles point to a fragile construction of self concept due to core shame from lack of parental attunement and narcissistic abuse experienced in early development. The defense mechanism of narcissism is created as a means of literal survival for the developing mind.

            This is not a choice it is a subconscious reaction between the ages of 0-2 in response to overwhelming stimuli at a time the brain is in it key developmental period. During this time, the original narcissistic injury literally affects the development of synapses in the brain and these changes preempt the choices you are assuming available to the narcissist.

            To your point, a narcissist can modify behavior somewhat, but this require self-awareness, intelligence and a firm desire to do so on an ongoing basis. Very few narcissists have all there of the above qualities. Further, behavioral modification does not change a narcissist into a non-narcissist.

            WN, I understand the frustration you are experiencing. I wish it were as simple as education and choice for the narcissist. At least empaths have the ability to make protective choices to avoid pain and abuse. Given no alternative to heal narcissists, I choose healthy and avoid abuse.

          8. FYC
            Children of narcissists are emotionally abused, beaten, raped, sodomized, punched, burned, kicked, neglected, caged or starved. These tiny fragile souls had no one to protect them from these unspeakable horrors. It is no wonder that there are psychopaths, narcissists, CoDs, BPDs, empaths, etc.

            What a sad fucking mess. And we can’t do a damn thing to fix it. It is absolutely heartbreaking.

            Those poor souls.

          9. Hello K,

            “Children of narcissists are…abused. These tiny fragile souls had no one to protect them from these unspeakable horrors. It is no wonder that there are psychopaths, narcissists, CoDs, BPDs, empaths, etc.

            What a sad fucking mess. And we can’t do a damn thing to fix it. It is absolutely heartbreaking.”

            So very true, K. I was not physically abused and I am grateful. Yet emotional abuse (as you know) is insidious and leaves its own wounds and scars. It remains mostly invisible to others (due to manipulation and facade management). Abuse of any kind violates the heart, mind and soul. Abuse distorts reality and skews internal beliefs. Its carnage can be as potent as a nuclear bomb. All abuse is devastatingly heartbreaking and the ripples spread well beyond the original act.

            I feel the N’s pain. I think I understand it. I cannot change their experience or heal their past. All I can do is have compassion and understanding while protecting myself and empowering others. Thanks to the help of HG and others, I found the critical insight needed to truly let go and be free. A priceless gift indeed.

          10. FYC
            Emotional abuse/violence is just as bad as physical abuse and, in many cases, it can be worse because it is invisible and it is often invalidated because there are no visible scars, bruises or broken bones.

            Although we cannot alter NPD, we can recognize that it wasn’t their fault and they suffered, too. We all suffered. Because of Narcsite, I am no longer mired in confusion (in situ). This place is the Rosetta Stone of narcissism.

          11. FYC,
            Thank you very much for your comment, for your understanding and for providing the articles. The subject of ‘self-concept’ and the related effects on self-esteem and self-consistency is very interesting. It’s an area I have also read about recently. Thank you for your very insightful explanation about this information.

            The early narcissistic injury to a child’s developing brain has profound consequences that last a lifetime, not only to the child but to the people around them.

            I wish it were a case of education and choice being able to heal the narcissist too. Perhaps the fact that the narcissist cannot change even with education and choice is a key understanding. The importance of education and proper choice in relation to children and early child development may be fundamental in preventing narcissism and other personality disorders in the first place.

            Recently, after reading about narcissism (which I find very interesting, but also, all-consuming because it’s at the forefront of my mind much of the time) I’ve begun to think that the state of the ‘world’ as we know it is exactly how it should be. By that, I mean that all actions cause certain reactions and all behaviours cause certain consequences. Nothing exists in a vacuum and nothing is pre-ordained.

            Thanks again for your comment FYC. I always enjoy reading your well-read and well-thought out views.

          12. Hello WiserNow, You are most welcome.

            Our emotions inform us about our internal experience. When frustration arrises and blame emerges, it is signaling contempt for an act that was experienced as threatening/harmful. Contempt results in defensiveness. (Even for the non-narcissist).

            In reality, blame and defensiveness keep everyone stuck. It is the opposite of empowerment.

            Honor your feelings, they are informing you of something your conscious mind does not understand. When this occurs, seek the facts (evidence) and employ logic. The result will afford greater satisfaction than blame or frustration every will.

            Knowledge is incredibly powerful when logic and reason prevail. Always choose personal responsibility and your strength and freedom will grow exponentially. From your later response to HG, it looks like you are on your way. Wishing you the best as you heal.

          13. FYC, I wish I had more time to comment on this conversation. First thank you for the links. I’m looking forward to having more reading material for later.

            All parties have made excellent points. You state “Further, behavioral modification does not change a narcissist into a non-narcissist.” This is exactly what I was thinking as I read the comments. It’s just as an empath can make changes, go no contact, control emotional thinking, but those changes are behavior changes and does not make us non-empaths. It’s the very reason that NC is the only answer. Continuous contact with the narcissist will cause us to revert back to our empath ways.

            Wiser Now, I relate to your comment about accepting narcissist behavior as instinct could be a cause to forgive them. This is something I struggle with. I don’t want a reason to forgive. It goes against my nature not to forgive if I believe that the narcissist can’t be held responsible for who he is. As of today, I just except that I don’t have to forgive even if it’s against my nature. Maybe someday someone will say something that will help make a sensible connection as to why it’s ok for me not to forgive.

          14. Hello Mercy,

            “It’s just as an empath can make changes, go no contact, control emotional thinking, but those changes are behavior changes and does not make us non-empaths.” So very true!

            A note on forgiveness for what it’s worth:

            Forgiveness frees the forgiver not the forgiven. It releases resentment and enables you to turn the page. It is an act of recognizing that most offenses are the result of a lack of resident knowledge, empathy, experience, or awareness of other options.

            In the case of the narcissist, it is not that they are normal or empathetic and choose to abuse; It is that they are imprisoned in a highly defended state and feel compelled to act as they do to maintain their coping mechanism.

            I forgive all narcissists, not for lies or abuse, but for their narcissism which spurs the lies and cruel acts. They too were abused and abuse altered how they cope with the world. I forgive this 100%. That said, I am also a huge believer in personal responsibility. Therefore, I remove myself from bad behavior and try to empower others. I choose to honor myself and employ distant compassion.

          15. FYC “A note on forgiveness for what it’s worth” I always appreciate your opinion.

            Choosing to honor yourself is the same advice NA gave me a few months ago when I was in the depths of my struggle. I’m taking this advice and not worrying about if I should or should not forgive. I feel that indifference will come first. Every day is a new day of understanding.

          16. Hi Mercy, Thank you.

            On the familial front, it took me a while to get to forgiveness. It was a process. I consumed everything I could to fully understand narcissism. HG was crucial in finding the truth. With knowledge and understand of the condition, I felt far more compassion for the Ns instead of feeling their pain. I stopped trying to solve anything and let go. I would describe the process as similar to grieving. I had to accept all the facts and let go of false hope. Once I did that, forgiveness was a natural and freeing conclusion.

            Mercy, honoring yourself at all times is affirming and healthy. You are unique, and valuable and worthy of honor. Choosing to honor yourself in all things will become a natural state of being and others will sense this an honor you too (or choose a different victim).

            On another note, how are you since the hoover? Hopefully that is a small dot in your rearview mirror. I hope work is going well too. Take care😘

          17. Mercy, I also want to say, there are no shoulds, only choices with different outcomes. Honoring you means you determine what choice is in accordance with your own beliefs and values. Forget should. You are at the wheel, you decide. You can alter course when and if you make a new decision. You are smart and aware and strong, Mercy. I know you will choose wisely.

        2. WiserNow
          You have hit the nail on the head. We have a clash of personalities so what do we do about it?

          The empath is wired with insight, awareness and the ability to alter his or her situation. I am not happy at all that WE have to make concessions while it “seems” like the narcissist always gets off scot-free. It is unfair and very frustrating, however, I accept it.

          Focus on protecting yourself and your loved ones. Turn your frustration around and use it to power a campaign to help spread the word about NPD and educate people. One by one. That’s how I am dealing with my frustration.

          If you remove your ET and take a step back and really look at it, narcissist are completely incapable of change. They just cannot see any other POV but their own and there is nothing we can do to change that.

          It is what it is.

          1. Oh I dunno K, we could chuck ’em off a nearby balcony if they are MR’s??

          2. Renarde,
            Great idea! Wouldn’t that be good?!
            “…just one more silent treatment, pity play or word salad and it’s off to the balcony you go!!”

          3. WiserNow

            Never let anyone say you’re not an Empath. Only and Empath would give one of those obsequious cunts a warning!

          4. Thank you, WN.

            I realized with your comment where some of my frustration comes from. Which is very important for dealing with it.
            I was tempted to just accept the fact that I have to maintain NC, but it’s always better to have the reasons behind your own resistance to its implementation.
            I knew it somewhere, subconsciously, but being able to verbalize already gives some additional comfort.

            K,

            It’s not quite true that narcissists can’t change. They can learn, which means they can change.
            They don’t have the entire spectrum of learning and change available, that would be somewhat more accurate to put it.
            This is a great weakness they have, not being able to learn in certain situations (for example because they think they already know everything, or because they fear proving themselves incapable of acquiring a certain skill). But still such a small consolation for us…

            For me personally, being able to lose this time and fully accepting it and letting go, would be a great accomplishment.
            I’m not there yet.
            Next time, maybe I’ll be able to use some weapons I learned about here to repel them, and if not possible I hope I’ll just exit before it’s too late.
            But this time I must “lose”. There’s no way I can win this time. Damn.

          5. Abe Moline
            You will get there. It takes time, just keep reading and posting your way through it. It’s a struggle and your emotional thinking is your biggest enemy. Fight it. It will kick your ass but in the end you will win.

            Narcissists can learn, however, they only see the world from their point of view; they just can’t see it any other way. They see themselves as normal, everyone else is the problem, and they are not going to change no matter what anyone says.

            The more you read, the more you will clear up your ET and then it all starts to make perfect sense, however, it takes time and effort.

          6. Thanks for your comment Abe Moline.

            At times, I feel my frustration rising. I haven’t reached the point of indifference yet (as you can probably tell! :-))

            You have to be constantly conscious and in control of your reactions and what you say, and also of who you’re meeting or speaking with. No contact is always the best thing to do. At times where I need to deal with a narcissist though, I either prepare beforehand or make a conscious effort to be as unemotional as possible.

            When you say you need to “lose” this time, I’d suggest that instead of seeing it as a loss, you look at it as an experience that taught you more about yourself, who you are, what you believe in, what is important to you, and also what the world around you is really like. So in that respect, it’s not a loss, it has given you greater awareness.

          7. K
            I agree with your logical thinking and solution here. Even if change were possible for narcissists, most are unaware and the rest see no reason to, so it’s back to us. Is it fair? No. Are we happy about it? No. Are we accepting and embracing narcissism? No. We simply see that if there is to be change it will likely have to come from our side. That doesn’t mean acceptance and letting narcissists off the hook. It means taking steps to ensure that they don’t destroy our lives while we are waiting for them to make change (which again is unlikely) because we are just as stubborn as they are in believing we are right and that things should go our way. I’m not a lover of Dr. Phil but he does use a saying I find to sum this up:

            “Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?”

            Your third paragraph says it nicely: focus on what you need to do to protect yourself and those important to you, also help to educate others.

            Waiting for a narcissist to change to me, is like putting a rock in water and waiting for it to dissolve. It could happen, but not in my lifetime, so I’d rather get on with my life than watch and wait for it to.

          8. NarcAngel
            Correct. ALL changes will be coming from our side because we have the ability and the insight to affect change because we are wired to do so.

            This is what I mean by acceptance: NP is a disorder (think: juvenile diabetes) and the individual with this condition is not at fault for having narcissism.

            Do we embrace it? No. Do we accept the abusive behavior? Absolutely not! We can only try to understand and protect ourselves from it and spread awareness.

            Hoping or expecting change is emotional thinking and that keeps us stuck (the rock will never dissolve). We have to step back and allow the logic to sink in and then we can move forward and get on with life.

          9. NarcAngel,
            Very wise words. “Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?” I’m going to practise saying that when I feel my emotional thinking rising or when I feel the need to react to something that I should really walk away from.

          10. NarcAngel, I always think about the conversation we had when you said I don’t have to forgive him. It was as if I needed permission to hold him accountable even of he had no control over his actions.

            One thing I didn’t see anyone comment about is that it benefits us to change. It’s survival for an empath to change and it is survival for a narcissist not to change.

          11. Mercy
            Ha ha ha…you are doing very well; keep flipping it and watch how fast you will learn.

          12. Mercy
            I stand by that. I don’t feel to forgive the perpetrator is necessary. Some do, and my feeling on that is: If it feels like a gift you’re giving yourself then have at it. If it’s viewed as a gift to the other person it is a wasted exercise.

            I don’t care about them, and they don’t deserve any more from me than what they were “gifted” with in what they took from me by force and deception.

          13. NarcAngel, trying to find a way to forgive became an added burden as if I wasn’t dealing with enough. I was relieved to let that go after our conversation. I told FYC earlier that I think indifference will come first for me. Once that happens forgiveness won’t even be a thought.

          14. K,
            Yes, you’re right, it is what it is. Unfortunately, there’s no scope for change with narcissists. So the best hope we have is to protect ourselves from their abuse and to accept the reality of it all.

            Thank you K, for your comments and replies. You are a voice of knowledge, reason and patience 🙂 I’m sorry to have contradicted you and vented my frustrations in your direction.

            I think I need to get a notepad and a pen, find a naughty step, and write the following line two hundred times, “Narcissists are completely incapable of change. You need to protect yourself.”

            Thanks again for your help and your advice xx

          15. WiserNow
            You didn’t do anything wrong and you don’t have to apologize. I welcome all your comments and I didn’t think you were contradicting me or venting. Sorry about the delayed response, I failed to tick off the notification box for the thread.

            You are a truth seeker and you were put through the wringer (hell) and you are simply trying to make sense of it all. You are angry and frustrated and you are trying to sync up your reality with your experience and that is what is causing the dissonance (that’s the clash).

            When you let go, you allow the logic to sink in, you learn to weaponize yourself and then everything syncs up and make sense.

            Keep reading and posting your way through it. That is how you will resolve the dissonance. It takes time and effort but you will get there.

        3. WiserNow
          HG is correct; it is waste of energy to focus on the unfairness of it all. Once you accept the situation for what it is, you free up a lot of your energy which then can be directed towards yourself.

          Letting go works really well.

          1. Yes, it does K. The “letting go” can refer to a number of things. It can relate to being focused on the unfairness of it all, and it can also refer to having deep-seated beliefs and values, the things that make us feel the need to react or to say and do something in certain situations.

            As empathic people, when we contemplate our “instinctive” behaviours in this way, rather than be angry and irritated at narcissists, we can be grateful and relieved that we have the flexibility to change and adapt and understand other points of view.

          2. WiserNow
            Hold on to your beliefs and values, that is what makes you an empath and that is a wonderful thing but we have to set aside our ET and realize exactly what we are dealing with: narcissists. Recognize them inside and out, how they think and why and weaponize yourself with all the knowledge and wisdom on narcsite.

            As empaths we have the ability to change and adapt, we have the upper hand and we can exert control. It isn’t easy and it isn’t fair but it is necessary.

            We are wired to understand other people’s POV, narcissists are not.
            It is really weird when you think about.

        4. WiserNow

          P.S.
          I just finished reading the recent remarks on the thread: A Dark Angel and I just want you to know that all your thoughts and comments are welcome and your input adds value to the blog.

          1. Thank you very much K. That is very kind and understanding of you, and it’s much appreciated 🙂

          2. My pleasure WiserNow
            Be fearless, speak your mind and don’t apologize. That is how we learn from each other.

      2. In my case, empathy started to make itself known at a very early age (of course I had no idea what it was at the time).

        By way of example: when I was three or four, my father bought a small toy for me at a local fair (he must have been in a good mood because he wouldn’t normally buy me anything). We got home late and I was promised I would be allowed to play with the object the following day.

        I went to sleep and when I woke up I asked my mother to give me the toy that dad had bought for me so I could play with it. She said she didn’t know what I was talking about, that nobody had ever bought any toy, etc.

        I knew I hadn’t imagined it. I just couldn’t understand what had happened and why my mother couldn’t ‘remember’ anything.

        Long story short, I ended up crying my eyes out, not for the toy, but for ‘poor dad’ who had wasted his money on something that wasn’t there anymore. “Poooor daad, poooor daad!”. I remember the sadness I felt as if it was yesterday. I was inconsolable.

        I have also been told by my parents that, when I was little, they would ‘use me’ to guess what my toddler sister wanted when she was crying because they (and I quote) had no idea. They said I was very good at it.
        I have no recollection of this, however.

    3. I like the viewpoint of Fromm and psychologist, Dr. Peck, in his book, “People of the Lie.”

      “Fromm saw the genesis of human evil as a developmental process; we are not created evil but we become evil slowly over time through a long series of choices. I applaud his view-particularly it’s emphasis on choice and will.”

      In my own understanding: Love, in order to exist at all, has to be a free will choice. Otherwise we’d all be organic robots. For love ❤️ to meaningfully exist, we all must be able to choose “not” to love and embrace it’s antithesis.

  7. It Depends,

    Well said. I agree with you. If hunger (for food or fuel) was constant and unrelenting, making you suffer each and every day, you would find a way to end that suffering once and for all. Using and abusing other people for fuel is a temporary fix. A “good” outcome would be to search for the real cause of the suffering and seek to end the constant need for external fuel.

    If a hungry person stole a loaf of bread once, or twice or even many times, but wanted to help themselves to not keep stealing, there would be scope to believe in their willingness to improve their own situation.

    The same thing holds for a narcissist. If they were truly in so much pain and anguish, they would try to find a way to stop.

    1. Not if you do not know what is behind it which is the problem which the Lesser and Mid Range Narcissists have. Their fuel matrix and fuel provision is less reliable and prone to disruption, hence they suffer the pain more often but their narcissism cannot and will not allow them to know what is behind it, hence there cannot be even an attempt to ‘fix it’, were that even possible.
      The Greater does not suffer the same issues re fuel provision and disruption as the other schools, therefore there is no need to look at attempting to fix (were that even possible) what is behind the constant need for fuel.

      Thus, the pain of low fuel provision is truly there but there is no solution to that other than to keep seeking fuel, for the Lesser and Mid Range.
      The superior ability to garner fuel means that the constant need does not present as a problem for the Greater, thus there is no need to seek an alternative solution (even if there were one) as the Greater has already found it.

      1. In that case, HG, it’s not really the same as hunger for food. When a person (any person) is hungry for food, they consciously know why their stomach is growling or why they feel weak or faint. They are aware that their physical (and emotional) feelings will be remedied by eating food. If they eat food and have a healthy digestive system, the food will relieve their hunger.

        I think narcissism is quite different. Unlike hunger, narcissism is a catch-22. The narcissist seeks fuel to relieve their ’emptiness’. They are given fuel in the form of attention, admiration, power, love, etc, but it is not enough. Also, most narcissists do not consciously ‘know’ why it’s not enough. Why is that the case?

        I believe there is a blind spot (in all narcissists, including Greaters) in their self-concept, that is, how they see themselves or regard their own character or self. This causes a deep-seated and unconscious insecurity or instability in their self-esteem.

        They consciously believe in their grandiose, all-powerful facade (the ego-construct) and their self-esteem is reliant on it. When there is an external ego threat, whether real or imagined, they retaliate with fury in an out-of-proportion manner to protect their weak ego-construct.

        The intense reaction to a perceived ego threat occurs because of the need to protect or maintain the false self, or the construct. Why is the reaction so intense or aggressive? It’s an unrealistically defensive reaction. Because their self-esteem is not founded on a secure basis or deep-seated belief that their self is able to survive and resist such ego-threats. Their real underlying self-concept is unclear to them. They are blinded to it. Thus, their self-esteem is very insecure and unstable.

        The remedy to an insecure self-esteem is to start to see yourself differently and to do some deep reflecting on how your inner-self knowledge can be strengthened. A narcissist is not willing to do this because that would mean they were wrong or weak or at fault and they can’t tolerate those thoughts.

        To my mind, it’s more like a blindness than a hunger.

    2. WN, Hunger is an interesting analogy. It might help explain the missing link in the faulty logic sometimes employed when we try to understand something we no not personally experience. Hopefully this provides a different perspective:

      Hunger for food is a satiable event, yet re-emerges intermittently. In general, people do not fear eating and enjoy the experience. They willingly stop eating when full and seek food again when needed.

      When consuming food becomes a psychological coping mechanism, such as binge/purge eating, anorexia, or even repetitive comfort eating, food morphs into an entirely different experience. Food is no longer consumed for its intended purpose. It is used to address psychological pain and fears. This is not driven by a conscious choice/decision, but a subconscious behavioral adaptation used to cope and defend against deep psychological injuries. Even patients with eating disorders who know the disorder will kill them, often persist in their maladaptive behavior until death. They are consciously aware of their behavior, but remain psychologically driven by their coping/defense mechanism.

      The same holds true for healthy emotional needs. We humans are social animals. We thrive with healthy, intermittent social contact. We are wired to seek social contact and are sated after a positive emotional experience, but desire more in the future. Numerous studies have shown the positive biological effects of healthy social contact.

      When emotional needs are not met and abuse is experienced during early childhood, significant psychological and developmental damage occurs to the core self and brain synapses. As a result, experiencing the core self and emotions morphs into and entirely different experience for the child. Psychological adaptations and defenses are created subconsciously as a means of survival to cope with these deep psychological injuries. It is not a conscious choice/decision. Most narcissists (like maladaptive food eaters) are in denial and unaware of what drives their unhealthy coping mechanism. They may have a degree of awareness that their behavior causes damage, but their psychological defenses prevent them from directly addressing what drives their actions. They live in a perpetually defended state as their natural way of being. They seek what provides relief on a continual basis, because they cannot simply choose to undo their life experience or erase what indelibly altered their neural synapses, core self concept and emotional experiences.

      I apologize for such a long comment but this is an important topic.

      1. “I apologize for such a long comment but this is an important topic.”

        Please do not aplogise for the length of this or any comment, FYC. It is an important topic, indeed, And I wanted to let you know that your comments add value to the site. I have learned a lot from the information and insight you provide here.

        1. Hello Saskia and Narc Angel,

          Thank you so much for your kind compliment and encouraging responses. You are both greatly appreciated. 💞

      2. FYC,
        Thank you for your comment. There is no need to apologise. I agree that it’s a very important topic and the more we talk about the different elements, we improve our knowledge, our defences and also provide better understanding to others.

  8. “I should imagine, when the need really arises, that you would go beyond the unpalatable in order to survive.”……Wrong. The difference between my kind and narcissists is quite simple. I would never resort to harming or consuming others (cannibalizing) in order to survive, including starvation. I hold human lives and their emotional health and happiness to be as important as my own. I don’t believe in puffing up my ego at others expense, especially when their accomplishments are to be admired and respected. So, in short, yes, he is a bad man. He chooses to plastically and artificially puff up his inferior real self by harming others. Why he makes that choice each and every day does not matter in the least. He daily chooses evil over good. That makes him bad.

    1. But that’s the point, he doesn’t choose evil – he perceives he is doing good, so is he evil?

      Or to put it another way, if you have two people who commit a crime together but only one knows it’s wrong, who is the more culpable? The one who knows it’s wrong or the one who doesn’t? I’m specially thinking of the horrific murder of James Bulger here.

      1. Renarde
        Many disordered people are wired to commit crime, they are not evil, they do not have a choice and they don’t know why they do what they do.

  9. Well since you put it like that hg I can see from your point of view of savagery. But like you said all actions have a consequence. Especially the bag of rice I remember seeing a scene in a movie called ip man he did what he had to do to survive. Interesting point of view never thought of it like that.

Vent Your Spleen!

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