Big Little Lies : Mary Louise Wright


Standard Empath? Middle Mid Range Narcissist? Empathic but not an empath?

What is Mary Louise Wright?

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What is Mary Louise Wright?

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113 thoughts on “Big Little Lies : Mary Louise Wright

  1. giselle goldsmith says:

    Immediate response is imperative . court is tomorrow .

  2. giselle goldsmith says:

    HG , I come to you now in as serious a way as possible . I was married to a greater nark , totally cerebral , as calculating and murderous , sly and manipulative as can be . I am the super empath in the way you would describe it . I am being dragged once again into a custody battle . He has all the minions now under his control . My friends , my family and my children . This is a greater that you would have a private laugh with . You say logic . His logic is so perfected that it’s near impossible to detect that the words and intentions are pure evil . The death of me is the goal . It’s simple . He has one thought . The death of me . He could not do what chris watts did in the same way but he can do it in his own way . Should I even consider fighting for my life ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Arrange a consultation and I’ll assist you

    2. FYC says:

      Giselle, I am so sorry you are enduring this painful situation. HG is your best defense against this GN and his machinations. Do take care of yourself. Do not worry about the others and his influence over them. Always fight for you! You are worth it. Take care. We will be here for you to vent with and to cheer you on.

  3. E. B. says:

    Not about BLL but about Meryl Streep playing the role of a narcissist.
    There is comedy called The Devil Wears Prada. Meryl Streep is the editor of a fashion magazine and her personal assistant has to put up with her abusive behaviour at work.

  4. E. B. says:

    Mary Louise Wright portrays the most predominant type of female narcissist I have met in real life: the ‘nice and pleasant’ passive aggressive, critical MRN.

    Her emotionally manipulative tactics including judging and shaming, snide side remarks, hurtful and false accusations, said sometimes in a sarcastic and condescending tone, other times more subtle like an observation or with an *innocent smile*.

    Some examples:

    S2E1: Marie Louise tells Celeste and her children how they are supposed to feel after Perry’s death (they should feel angry) and how they should grieve (scream).
    She screams. Celeste tells her ‘Please..’ and Marie Louise says ‘My grief is too loud for you’ while smiling.
    Afterwards, she says to Celeste ‘Don’t you feel angry?? You don’t?’ and then she plays the Poor Me – the grieving mother who lost ‘her’ Perry. She refers to him as ‘MY Perry’.
    Marie Louise wants to make Celeste be ashamed of not feeling anger at her husband’s death. She wants Celeste to feel guilt for grieving in a different way than her. Feeling angry and screaming is right, anything else is plain wrong, according to narcissist Marie Louise.

    Snide side remarks – a positive statement or a compliment followed by a negative judgement disguised as an observation, thought or just wondering.
    Marie Louise and Celeste in court ( I have watched S2E6 and S2E7).
    First she says she considers Celeste to be ‘a wonderful committed mother parent’ followed that ‘she has observed Celeste being violent with the boys, she witnessed her throwing Max to the ground and shaking him, that she saw her driving off wearing nothing but her jammies under the influence of who knows what…’.

    Neither Celeste nor other people remember Marie Louise said she was ‘a wonderful committed parent’. Now everybody is thinking that Celeste is actually a violent, crazy mother who acts under the influence of substances and her children are in danger.

    Marie Louise’s double standards. She accuses Celeste to be a bad mother and wants to remove the children from her, yet she abused her sons emotionally and traumatized them. Marie Louise’s son Raymond died partly because she had lost her temper when she was driving and her car crashed. She blamed Perry (5) for causing the crash that killed his brother. Celeste also confronts her with Perry raping Jane.
    Marie Louise uses the Twin Lines of Defence to exert control when Celeste confronts her with the above.

    This is why I voted MMRN.

    [I have watched Season 1. From Season 2, I was able to find some important episodes like the Court Scene -S2E6 and S2E7- on YouTube.]

  5. Whitney says:

    The MMR and UMR I’ve dealt with were obsessed with being liked by everyone. They weren’t conniving. So I think she’s Greater. I’m not sure which type because I don’t have much experience with Greaters.

    1. Whitney says:

      Changing my final vote to UMR. I’ve seen more episodes with her pity plays during the trial.
      I’m very serious about this!

      1. WokeAF says:

        I noted the pity plays too. I also voted UMR
        I wondered if the pity plays were just part of her toolkit and she pulls them out now and then- I did t see enough for a MMR but maybe there are some MMR who go light on them?
        Regardless my MMR does not go light on the Pity plays, uses them even under the guise of being funny or sociable so you can’t even tell it’s a pity play. But they’re constant.

  6. WokeAF says:

    Oh what’s that one w Goldie Hawn abt the fountain of youth

  7. E. B. says:

    I have not watched Season 1 yet but I have found this MLW video:
    Big Little Lies: Coffee Shop (Season 2 Episode 1 Clip) | HBO

    MLW reminds me of those female MRNs who pretend to be ‘so nice and pleasant’ while putting you down. They keep smiling (!) while being condescending or humiliating at the same time. Their body language does not match their words.
    Meryl Streep plays this role exceptionally well.

  8. Twisted Heart says:

    I can see now why people are voting greater. She’s diabolical. I hope Celeste ruins her.

  9. Twisted Heart says:

    I just watched S2 E6. This woman is pure evil. Meryl Streep is incredible!!!

  10. K says:

    Celeste busts Mary Louise going through her drawer of Meds (lack of boundaries).

    Celeste: You’re snooping.

    ML: Well…okay, I won’t lie. I have been having trouble sleeping of late and so I thought you might have a little helper or two. You have quite an impressive array. (she contradicts herself and lies, she is instinctively gathering information and she makes a provocative remark)

    Celeste: So you keep saying. Hmm.

    ML: Vicodin, you have to be so careful of these opioids, dear. (provocative and a little judgmental, perhaps)

    Celeste: I think it’s probably best if you find another place.

    ML: Celeste, I am on your side. (she is a good gal, that’s the MMRN facade at work, cognitive empathy)

    Mary Louise isn’t a showoff; she is quiet and wants to be well thought of like the typical MMRN. She is underhanded and sneaky; she stalks, smears, lies, gas lights and uses pity plays to gather information and cause trouble.

    She doesn’t appear to have an IPPS or IPSS or a large fuel matrix and she is very passive aggressive; I am voting MMRN.

    1. FYC says:

      I enjoyed your analysis, K, but I do not see the part where she cares what others think and desires to be well thought of. Instead, she slides her stiletto insults in durning conversation regularly and makes no apologies when the recipient reacts/objects. Let me know what I missed. I disliked her so much from the jump, I did not perceive any likability or attempt to be likable. Everything she says and does reeks of manipulation.

      As to Mary Louise’s fuel matrix, we have not been shown her personal life (or hometown). My assumption is she visited Celeste in Monterey under the auspices of assisting her DIL and to attend the funeral (when in reality she came to find out who killed her son and make them pay. She only took up residence in Monterey to take control of the three potential new extensions of herself–the grandkids and exact her revenge.)

      Would appreciate your further thoughts.

      1. K says:

        Ha ha ha…the operative word is “wants” but her behaviour belies her facade. She doesn’t appear to have an IPPS/IPSS and it looks like she is here to stay.

        On the way to school, the twins get into a fight and Mary Louise reprimands the boys while praising Celeste.

        ML: And part of being a fine young boy is listening and respecting you mother. She works so hard for you. That’s why the sun shines on her so.

        Celeste smiles and says: Thank you, Mary Louise.

        The Real Estate Office.

        MMM: Hey, Maddie.

        ML: Oh, Madeline. Hello.

        MMM: What’s going on?

        ML: Well, I thought I might look for a small flat here in town so that I could help out with the boys but not be quite so underfoot.

        The Scream (dinner time). ML makes a lovely dinner and sets the table.

        Celeste: This looks so delicious. Thank you, Mary Louise.

        Max: I thought we were having KFC.

        ML: Well, one cannot survive on fast food every night (provocative, gas lighting).

        After ML screams and scares the shit out of everyone she says: I’m sorry. (Sobs) I feel so, so alone. (pity play)

        Celeste has a nightmare: the Monterey Five are in a line-up and Celeste yells: No! Fucking kill you! No!

        ML runs into the bedroom: Are you alright? Celeste? You all right? You all right dear?

        Celeste: Yeah,

        ML: Another nightmare? Yes? (she rubs Celeste’s head and hugs her) and says: it’s all right. It’s all right.

        Celeste I’m sorry.

        ML: It’s all right. (fabulous cognitive empathy! but wait….)

        ML: So… who are we planning to kill?

        The End (of E1)

        1. FYC says:

          K I love your synopsis and you have such an incredible recall of the script! Impressive! I felt these were calculating actions/ingratiations made by ML in an effort to garner trust. They did not seem authentic to me. I got the feeling it was all self-serving facade and she did not actually care in the least.

          1. K says:

            Pssst…don’t tell anyone but I just re-played the scenes and hit pause so I could find a few examples.
            ML came across as calculating but, if she is a midranger, it was instinctive, however, if she is a Greater, it was calculated.

            Midrangers think that they are decent, that’s the facade in action, but they don’t give a rat’s ass about anyone. My LMRN Aunt would give me a great-big-warm-and-fuzzy hug and tell me how happy she was to see me but then she point out some flaw (real or perceived). A complete Volte Face.

          2. FYC says:

            Haha, K, if you were a narc you would have let me believe you had total script recall. Even still, your synopses are impressive. I can appreciate your aunt story, I have witnessed many volte face maneuvers with MRNs in my family. Can’t wait to learn more about this typing of Ns. I hope we do another exercise after BLL to apply what we learn from this and to see if there is any improvement in accuracy. Just the recent Empathy Cake post helped with the finer distinctions between low and no empathy. I am determined to master this process for my own well-being.

          3. K says:

            Thank you FYC
            Ha ha ha…my script recall is my omniscience and omnipotence coming to the fore (I wish). That was the only aunt who could fake the Warm and Fuzzzies; she was amazing. I think Chernobyl may be the next exercise and The Empathy Cake was fantastic. I have Layer One: – Instinctive Emotional Empathy (“IEE”).

            Shrek could work in the office with me and I would never say: Wow, your skin is so green and your ears look funny.

            You are coming along very well and you will master the process in no time. Once it clicks, it snowballs.

          4. FYC says:

            All knowing and all seeing K (hehehe), I have not watched Chernobyl yet (kinda thought it might be depressing series) do you recommend it? I too live in the land of IEE, sometimes too much so. My way of coping with IEE sensitivity is to stay in my head so to speak, to prevent overwhelm in the moment, but the feelings are always there like a deep river current. There are times when my narcissistic traits come to the fore though, like when a seagull craps on a kind empath. Then it’s FTSSH! I so look forward to the snowball phase. I feel like I am not close. But thank you so much for your kind thoughts.

          5. K says:

            My pleasure FYC
            Ha ha ha…grandiosity at it’s finest. Chernobyl is brutal; thankfully it’s only 5 episodes. Honestly, it’s dismal and depressing, however, the miner’s bring some levity to it.

            I never understood why some people made fun of others for no discernible reason. Now I understand it’s because they are NPD. Yeah, sometimes my N-traits come to the fore and words fly out of my mouth like missiles (challenge fuel). I don’t like to see people get bullied either. You seem to be coming along very well; I think you will snowball sooner rather than later.

          6. FYC says:

            K, You are most kind and I hope you are right!

            My mid range N parent and N sibling love to put other people down. It is sad. When I would defend the person, they would attack me instead. They also thought I was way too sensitive. I do care, maybe too much, but I prefer that to a total lack of empathy.

          7. K says:

            Thank you FYC
            You have the ability to detach and be objective, which is key to understanding the dynamic.
            You challenged them so they attacked you and of course it’s all your fault; you are too damn sensitive. I agree, empathy is a good thing and we are lucky to have it.

          8. FYC says:

            I agree completely, K. And thanks again for your part in getting me there.

          9. K says:

            My pleasure FYC!

  11. Chihuahuamum says:

    Hi HG…i wanted to ask you if you think perrus mother and yours have similarities? Thx 🙂

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I am not going to respond to that CHM at this stage to avoid foreshadowing my analysis.

      1. K says:

        When she screamed at dinner, I immediately thought of your mother and The Scream by Edvard Munch.

        That made me think she could be an UMRN.

      2. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi HG…no worries. I look forward to reading it!

    2. Twisted Heart says:

      I was wondering how genetics might come into play with a narcissist’s awareness level. Could a parent who was a mid for example have a child who was a greater or vice versa? I’m interested in the evolution of narcissism. Fascinating as always!

      1. WokeAF says:

        Twisted- HG’s Mom is an UMR.

        1. Twisted Heart says:

          Interesting! Thank you WokeAF.

  12. FYC says:

    I am guessing Mary Louise mid greater. She is supremely in control and manipulates and controls others with malevolent finesse and ease. Her feigned, understated, ‘grieving’ grandma facade is betrayed by her frequent and often shocking stiletto jabs and slurs. Yet even when she slips the stiletto into another side, she does so with a knowing, dark grin. This is a woman in control of herself and all she encounters.

    Mary Louise is not a bulldozer Lesser, nor a seemingly likable Midranger. In fact, she seems to have no concern whether she is liked. Instead she simply maintains plausible deniability with her facade, while carrying out her malice-filled, scorched earth mission of revenge. After all, someone killed her primary NIPS, her possession and extension of herself, her golden child! How dare they! They will all pay.

    When others balk at Mary Louise’s words or behavior, she does not back down nor make excuses, she smiles. She knows she has hit her mark. She reminds me of HG’s description of the greater:
    “[Her] glittering dark eyes are keen slits of observation. [she] misses nothing.”

    When Celeste requests to put Mary Louise on the stand and the judge agrees and the camera pans to Mary Louise’s smug smile, I was reminded of this HG quote:
    “This dragon is in its domain and knows it rules all that it surveys as this nervous person approaches, message held in trembling hand. This dragon already knows what is written on that message, [she] is particularly perceptive and recognises from the demeanour and body language of the approaching person that this is not someone bearing good news, but rather the opposite. Yet, such is [her] power, [her] magnificence [she] remains unperturbed. [She] knows [her] might.” Indeed she does. I believe she relishes the opportunity to show Celeste exactly who is in charge.

    Mary Louise is incredibly revolting and despicable, yet so far very effective in her manipulations. We shall see if she wins, but winning at all costs (and maintaining total control) is her aim.

    1. alexissmith2016 says:

      Very well put FYC

      1. FYC says:

        Thank you, Alexis.

  13. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    Dearest HG: I think she is not a greater because she shows her cards too much. Everyone sees her coming. She has not fooled anyone of her intentions to find culprits that she feels destroyed and is destroying her family including her late son, and her 3 grandchildren.

    1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      Dearest HG: Also, Celeste did not appear to be prepared well, by her lawyer, for her questioning. I could have prepared her better than that expensive lawyer. Celeste was like a deer caught in the headlights. Also, the objections were weird during that questioning. Things that should have been objected to, were not, and what was objected to was basically irrelevant. That could be the writing, though. The writing made lawyers look a bit incompetent. Her lawyer should have known that Celeste`s fitness and character would be called into question, since that is the entire case largely in a custody battle including financial solvency, but solvency does not seem to be an issue. Fitness of the parties in question is the main issue, yes? Did Celeste and her lawyer ever meet and substantively discuss their strategy and prepare responses to some of the ugly questions that surely would be asked? And Celeste seemed to be out of her mind on Ambien/drugs. And she floundered about talking about the drug usage. And her lawyer seemed to not know about her `extra activities.` How could this be? And the fact Celeste said that she did not tell certain things to her therapist, because she wanted the respect of her therapist, painted Celeste as a facade loving and needy, liar, who would lie to authority, and the judge is probably wondering, is Celeste lying to me, because she wants my respect too, and will she perjure herself to look good, and we all know that many go down and lose their case for lying in court, instead of the supposed crime, like the United States mogul, Martha Stewart, for example. She lied.She was jailed. Thus, the Judge would feel alarmed and more inclined to look at the Grandmother as more stable and trustworthy. Now, the question will probably be asked of Celeste in court at some point: `Were you lying then, or are you lying now, and why should we believe you now?` (this logical question usually appears in all movies when someone is caught lying in court) When asked about her alarming behavior, Celeste should have said something, like, she wrote her alarming behavior down in her diary to tell her therapist at her next session or something like that. Instead of I want my therapist to think well of me, so I did not tell her. Why was she so unprepared? I wanted to throw a glass at the wall. I do not like Celeste`s lawyer. Maybe it is the writing. I guess I shall see.

  14. Dearest HG: I am surprised that I have not watched Meryl Streep movies. But, she seems to have uncanny acting abilities, on Big Little Lies. Is she always so on point in nailing the subtle innuendos in her roles? I would like to see her in one of her great film roles, but I am under the impression that she plays in sad and maudlin type movies that leave people sad and crying, and I do not ever watch that sort of movie, if I can help it. I am not sure why I think of her that way, but she sure adds to the quality of Big Little Lies.

    1. MB says:

      PSE, sounds like you may be a contagion empath.

      1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        MB: When I first read on Narcsite about these categories, I posted that from my experience, that I fit more the Magnet, but I admired tremendously the energy of the Geyser, and that I do have a touch of the Contagion, but I try to keep the Contagions under strict control, like you noticed. I rarely watch, with a few exceptions, horror movies, or sad maudlin movies, or romantic movies, or tear-jerkers. I largely like in order: espionage, thrillers and action, and dramas, and some sci-fi, and their various combinations, and as an exception, some horror movies that are more mentally oriented than gratuitously gory. Regarding romantic movies: Oddly, I enjoy watching historical romance movies. They do not draw the Contagion out of me that much: Maybe because a lot of law and estates and heritage and cultural norms, and marriage contracts and all that is involved, and all that interests me. However, I did love Groundhog Day, and also Baby Boom, and I think they are romance movies. I thought both were very smartly done.

        1. Twilight says:


          Can you sense the actors energy and be able to tell if they are empathetic or narcissistic? Not just “feel”! Or react/respond to what you see and feel?

          1. Twilight, I think it is not as much as sense or feel the actors, but it is mirroring on how I would feel in the situation. I am not really sure. It is weird. So, I just avoid viewing what I find upsetting. I sort of know right away, if I will watch something or not. However, when I watch real sports, and I like sports, I do have a bit of a problem, when the players are upset or feel humiliated, or in a stressful game changing situation during a game, and I see the stress or disappointment or shame in a Player’s eyes, I think it is then that I feel I am feeling what the Players are feeling, because I played sports. So, I shut my eyes or look away for a few seconds, until the scene changes. I hide this about myself when I am watching a game in a group, or I will be teased strongly, especially when guys are around, and then I am told, PSE! You Can Not Look Away! LOOK! LOOK! You Are Missing The Best Part! I feel to myself, No. this is the worse part.

        2. MB says:

          PSE, I avoid the news because I reject negativity so I totally understand what you mean about the movies. I despise most horror movies too! They are so poorly executed. I enjoy a sad movie every now and then, though. It’s cathartic for me to have a good cry. I tear up every now and then. But I rarely have an ugly cry to clean out all the toxins in my heart. A tear jerker movie is a good catalyst and then dam breaks!

          1. MB: I am glad you find a catharsis that way. Have you heard of Weeping Boys, an occupation in Japan? You pay them and they come to your house and watch sad movies with you, or your group of women, and they cry with you to help repressed Japanese women cry and relieve stress, and help those that no longer know how to cry by coaching them. I dare you to say I am making this up. However, I need movies that help me to Grip Up. I do want so see the horror movie: Get Out, and one filmed in Sweden called, Midsommar. Those 2 are the only horror movies on my list right now. Maybe the film, A Quiet Place, could be added. But to watch any, I will need many hours before night fall, and I will have to be completely strong and topped off emotionally, and feel that way at least a day ahead of time.

          2. MB says:

            PSE, are you for real?!? I might could use some of these Weeping Men’s services. Very cathartic and stress relieving indeed! 😈

            I think I saw Midsommar on the kiosk at the movies this past weekend. I’ll have to check that one out.

          3. MB: If you see Midsommer, let me know. (1) In Japan, there also is an occupation called, Sheep Boys. Sheep, as in kind and harmless. I remember they are paid about $1000.00 for the night from his company (one thousand dollars). A Sheep Boy will come to your house and cook you dinner and things like that and talk to you or watch TV with you, and then he will sleep with you, contractually platonically only, and you can tell him about your day, and a problem or two, and he will give you his advice. (2) And if you want him to, he will put his arms around you until you fall asleep. Sheep Boys. Also, they are called Sheep Boys, like when you count sheep before falling asleep. And they have to smell good, as well, as a requirement for the job. I am not making this up, MB. What is this world coming to, yes? I once was looking up info on a city in Japan, because a pleasant acquaintance moved there and a storm hit the city that she moved to, and now Youtube sends me all these news stories from Japan.

          4. WokeAF says:

            That sounds amazing but for a grand I think we’d should be part of the deal

          5. NarcAngel says:

            Who would pay for any of these stupid and expensive services. Get an outrageous gay friend. They’re better than husbands.

          6. WokeAF says:

            Haha agreed but outrageous gay friends are so tiring for us standards

          7. MB says:

            PSE, I have one of these Sheep Boys of my very own! Every. Night. I had no idea I could be pimping him out for $1000!

          8. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

            MB: What??? Your own Sheep Boy? So, of course, he is kind and harmless and smells good and patient will cook and watch TV with his client and advise the client on some of her problems with understanding and wisdom, and even hug her until she falls asleep, if the client desires, with a contractual no intimacy clause? DING! DING! DING! You have a winner. So in divorce court, you would have to keep him in the lifestyle that he is accustomed with you in accordance with the average salary of professional fulltime Sheep Boys, as a stay-at-home-Sheep Boy, which would be at least $365,000.00 a year including bonuses. Wow. I say to you that it could be cheaper to keep him at home with you, MB. And never tell him his true value on the open market, especially in Japan.

    2. Caroline R says:

      Meryl Streep is in an old movie with Rosanne Barr called “She Devil”.
      She’s very good in it.
      It’s a comedy.

      1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        Carolyn R. Interesting title, as well. And a comedy. I put it on my movies to watch list. Thank you.

        1. Caroline R says:

          You’re welcome.

        2. Caroline R says:

          I’ve just discovered the comedy series “Odd Mom Out”.
          Have you seen it?
          It’s set in New York City, and has some great N-pretentiousness, & laugh-out-loud moments.
          I’m binge watching it.

          Season 2, EP 1.
          Lex: “Front desk? What’s happened to the wifi in the hotel? I need to send an emergency Instagram post!…………..The wifi’s down in the whole building?…..”
          (Puts the phone down. Turns to his N-wife Brooke, and says seriously and dramatically…)
          “We’re cut off from the rest of the world!”

          Yep. He could walk outside into the street….

          1. Carolyn. Odd Mom Out. Thank you . I love recommendations from real people. There is just so much product out there, I never know where to start.

  15. emc2gion says:

    Upper greater: Love Merriyl Streep, but she plays this character so well, I get goosebumps and forget it’s her. I felt she is a few levels up in terms of calculation and control, above her son. I actually started to feel sorry for her son for having her as a mother. Facade of a grieving mother wanting justice. Cold, calculating, calm exterior with control over her fury, manipulative, backhanded compliments, lack of boundaries, lack of remorse..

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Streep plays the role very well indeed.

      1. MB says:

        One of my favorite actresses. So talented. ‘August: Osage County’ is a must-see for Streep fans.

  16. misstasia says:

    I think she is a UMRN she has more self-control than an MMRN but not enough to be a Greater. She is manipulative and plays the victim very well but not a martyr like the MMRN. She hired a P.I. to follow Celeste to find any dirt on her to use against her when the time was right. She doesn’t want the best for her grandsons as she claims, she wants to punish Celeste for taking her son away from her. Deep down she wants another chance to be a mother again to make right for what she did wrong with her own sons. We haven’t found out exactly what happened to her son who died but she definitely played a significant role in his death, of that I am certain.

    1. WokeAF says:

      Agree to al except her wanting to make right with the boys and be a mom.
      I think she wants the boys to punish Celeste and have control

  17. Geminimom says:

    LGN. She seems aware of her calculations and makes some people uncomfortable in her presence. She can trigger someone to be angry. She has a plan.

  18. Chihuahuamum says:

    Not watched season 2 yet i need to look into crave and see if its offered. Really missing this series! 😭
    I suspect shes a upper midranger to lower greater based on her son.

  19. MommyPino says:

    Middle Mid-Range Narcissist. She’s quite a challenge so I can understand how some might think she’s an Upper Mid-Range. But I think that she’s Middle Mid-Range because she doesn’t have the large fuel matrix that Upper MR would have. She’s very challenging to the Monterey Five because she is currently on a quest to expose whoever killed her Golden Child. She is running very high on challenge fuel and she will make sure that she gets the upper hand on whoever did what she believes to be an injustice towards her son. She is definitely horrible and she displayed a lot of behaviors that are more apt with a Mid-Ranger than of a Lesser but I don’t think that she is aware of what she is or her son is so I don’t think that she’s a Greater. She is in delusional belief that her Golden Child was perfect and she’s the most amazing mother ever.

    1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      Mommypino: I love your line here: [ `She is running very high on challenge fuel `] Amen, Mommy Pino. I perceive this is the case with Mary.

  20. Alexissmith2016 says:

    Now I’m thinking you wrote the theme tune too! Especially when it got to the last few lines. It’s like you and SM!

  21. WokeAF says:

    Voted: UMR NARC

    (Possibly An Angel With A Dirty Face?)

    Defin a narc
    But tricky -which school?
    Very calculating. The anger and poor me is in check. But I don’t think she knows what she is.

    Her whole gig is very similar to how I picture HG’s mom, so I’m going with my gut, UMR

  22. jessrnny says:

    MMRN. Dull but always polite this woman is a piece of work. Family oriented with them as main sources of fuel and seems to be decompensating due to loss of son and husband. Unable to accept the shortcomings of her son and blames the victims who were raped. Passive aggressive and backhanded compliments abound. Seems to be an “angel with a dirty face” as her abuse is disguised as what’s “best for the children.” She’s gonna flip her lid soon…

    1. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      jessrnny: I love your description: [ `Seems to be an “angel with a dirty face” as her abuse is disguised as what’s “best for the children.” She’s gonna flip her lid soon…`] jessrnnny: Do I really want to be around if she flips her lid? She is already a tornado….

  23. Twisted Heart says:

    I voted middle mid ranger. I’m surprised with how many votes for upper greater. She just seems to be in denial about everything.

    1. Alexissmith2016 says:

      Okay I’m an addict – couldn’t wait!

      I fucking hate her! I was watching the episode thinking get help from HG, get help from HG!

      Then right at the end….here comes the SE….. can’t keep her down for long! She’s a weeble for sure!

      Here she comes Mary Louise!

      Well I hope so!

    2. Sophia says:

      It might be because she seems like she could be more dangerous like her son. She seems so much more calculated than a MMRN but I don’t have any more proof of that other than my gut. Definitely more ballsy than my ex MMRN but sometimes I wonder if that’s an extrovert/introvert thing.
      I’ve often wondered if an introverted narcissist has a really hard time getting and keeping their fuel source because of needing that time to recharge.

      1. WokeAF says:

        I somehow don’t get the feeling there are intro or extra verted narcs.
        I think there’s ones with higher charisma bc of higher “functioning “ … less so bc of lower functioning
        I think they do whatever they have to do to get fuel and if they are lower energy they may be content to sit at home and just suck the IPPS dry mostly , and get online for the rest
        Or if higher functioning- get fuel at work etc

        I’ve personally seen my MMR be outgoing, life if the party , out every night , bc he was in chaos mode having been unexpectedly dumped by his long term IPPS
        BUT then he secured a new IPPS and kept up the social charade only long enough to get her moved in. Now they never go out.

  24. Presque Vu says:

    Oh she’s definitely a greater.
    She clocked Bonnie, she knows. Bonnie knows she knows. I think she’s a greater because she knows people’s weakness or soft spot almost it would seem immediately. But it’s the calmness. I have to say the acting is superb! Meryl Streep is so convincing.

    I can’t wait for tonight’s episode!

    1. WokeAF says:

      I agree w everything you said, and that’s what had me torn between UMR and LG. I still need to see more of her, but my gut said UMR.

      I think an UMR can be as calculating and perceptive and provocative as she is.

      1. Presque Vu says:

        Last nights episode was telling.

        Season 2 episode 6:

        I could feel the fuel explosion through the TV when Mary closed the door on Jane after insulting her in that calm scathing way she does it. She inhaled it, she savoured it.

        In the court room at the end when Celeste said she would like to cross examine Mary – Mary’s face.. watch it again.. I can literally see her think ‘Game on!’

        I was so frustrated with Celeste. I wanted to shake her, I could tell where the questions where going before they asked them! When she took the emotional responses OUT when questioned by her own attorney – she came across much better. Mary actually showed annoyance.

        Mary has been working behind the scenes – hiring the private investigator, putting together her masterplan, compiling character profiles. She’s at least two steps ahead of everybody.

        Like a criminal profiler, Mary sat next to the detective and watched their statement videos. How she has managed to do that I don’t know. Mary knows Bonnie has done it – but steams ahead with the custody case – using Perry’s death to trump Celeste. She doesn’t care about her son or her grandchildren. It’s a game and she’s the winner. I think Mary has told the detective it’s Bonnie already, the detective was watching her very closely in the courtroom. Bonnie knows it’s just a matter of time, it’s coming, and senses the other women are struggling.

        Bonnies flashbacks, thoughts and feelings towards her mother and the letter she wrote her struck me, a complete battle of empathic traits versus very narcistic ones. Bonnie pushed her mother down those steps, an abuser, a narc, the only regret she has about killing Perry is that her rage towards her mother and identifying similar traits made her do it. Protection. Flashbacks. Childhood trauma.

        If anybody challenges Mary, it will be Bonnie. She’s known the darkness. She senses narcs, they sense each other. I toyed with the idea that Bonnie was a narc for a long time before I thought she was a contagion.

        This truly is an excellent exercise HG, thanks for making us think logically, and to really SEE. I appreciate all the learning material and expertise you provide for us.

        1. Prescu Vu: `I could feel the fuel explosion through the TV when Mary closed the door on Jane after insulting her in that calm scathing way she does it. She inhaled it, she savoured it.` That was a very disturbing scene. The one night impregnated stand, and the mother of the deceased man that impregnated her, going at it. What a combination. Both related to the child involved. Both not feeling any empathy for the other, due to the violence/rape/impregnation occurrence, and the resulting stigma upon all of them: Jane and Ziggy and Mary are all 3 stigmatized. The `loose` woman impregnated during a violent one night stand, the child of a one night stand of violence/rape, and the mother of the violator/rapist. Very bad business.

          1. Presque Vu says:

            I could totally relate to why Jane showed no empathy though – she’s going after Celeste’s kids – she’s standing by her friend, Mary deserved her rage – i’d be raging – i’d explode! But yes PSE a sad case for Jane and Ziggy – Mary will punish her for the rage I bet by now going after Ziggy too!

        2. emc2gion says:


      2. alexissmith2016 says:

        I understand why you’re torn Woke but I can’t see her as being anything other than a greater. She’s not at all similar to the greaters I have encountered in that her evil ways are far more obvious to those around her. But she reminds me of Margaret Thatcher in many ways whom HG confirmed was a greater.

        I’m very much looking forward to finding out the answers. It is much harder I feel when you don’t have direct interaction with them to work out what they are. It will definitely support our learning for sure!

        1. WokeAF says:

          Alexis – yeah I’d not be surprised to find out she’s a greater. She’s so calculating and went right for the throat with the hiring of private detectives

  25. Elke says:

    Upper greater narc, no hello or how arę you she just says to Magdalenebshe does not like short peopple then nicely explains her insult, no sorry, she knows that there is something strange about the death of ,I presume her golden child Perry, there was other brother that as I remember od dead I wonder why, the husband found happiness with new family( think he goso) , she wants to take away Celestes kids and do everything to achieve it. She knows what she does and who she is. Her golden child is dead, so now the gandchildren can take his place. Not a good person ,Meryl Streep is perfect acting such a character.

    1. WokeAF says:

      Hg’s Descriptions of UG say connections with high power ppl
      If Mary Louise has that sort of network she wouldn’t need a trial I think

    2. Twisted Heart says:

      Such a great episode. I’m watching it again for the 3rd time in 24hrs. I hope they win all the awards!

  26. KellyD says:

    I voted upper mid range because I believe her to be smart, humorous even, she can be charming when she needs to be, she has control and can cut to the core while appearing innocent. She can be brutal and she cracks me up. She reminds me of Peter Falk in Columbo.. you think she’s just stumbled onto something, but she know exactly where she’s going.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I am still entertained by her ‘house with no furniture’ jibe towards Renata.

      1. KellyD says:

        Yeah, she planted that little seed of insecurity nicely into Renata’s head

      2. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

        Dearest HG: She is remarkably observant, with little censure on what she says to people. Like when she called Witherspoon short to her face, and how she told Witherspoon her views regarding short people.

        1. KellyD says:

          PSE, she’s entitled. How about her moving into Janes’s building? Lmao

          1. nunya biz says:

            KellyD, I had an empath friend complain to me that her narc sister moved a block away from her and she asked me if it was normal to feel mad about it.

          2. Kelly says:

            Not Janes’s obvi lol

          3. WokeAF says:

            Tanks on lawns eh HG

          4. KellyD. Yes. That is some serious Everpresence. She may have her eye on collecting Ziggy as well. She is: The Child Collector.

        2. MommyPino says:

          Lol PSE when I saw that I thought what is up with Narcs picking on short people? I’m 5’3” and my narcy stepdaughters always made jibes regarding my height comparing it to their tall heights. My UMR BIL would always talk about wanting to adopt munchkins whenever I visit him lol. Although I also pick on him about his age and how he’s at the end part of his life span. I liked Madeline’s reaction though, she completely didn’t give a fuck.

          1. MommyPino: You are so right. All heights somewhat have an advantage and disadvantage. Many men adore and are very protective of petite women. And they sometimes are treated better in in general as non-threatening although many of them can shred you into a million pieces. Many people think tall women are competent when some are as dumb as a rock. I am sort of the middle, at 5 feet 7 inches in my bare feet. I am treated differently when I wear heels, although I am the same person. Even men are treated differently regarding height. Some men are just too tall and never can quietly enter a space. Some are short and angry and some are short and bold. The bold ones love tall women who love looking tall with a shorter man. Streep is so funny in her classifications. But, if those are her observations, she is entitled, but really, she is Queen of both the Backhanded Compliment and the Cut Direct. She needs to travel carefully. In some places, she would also be Queen of the Missing Teeth. Even Celeste was moved to slap her, unfortunately for Celetes` custody case. Episode six sure showed something about Celeste. I am not sure what is going on with her. I wonder if we were supposed to sense that something else is within her personality, or if the writers just threw that character development in gratuitously. I do not want to do a spoiler, so I just will leave at that.

          2. MommyPino says:

            “In some places, she would also be Queen of the Missing Teeth. ”

            Haha yes she would!

            Thank you PSE. I totally agree on the advantages and disadvantages of each height. For me, being short makes it hard to reach stuff from the cupboards. Although I have already fixed that by marrying a tall guy. One of the advantages for being short though is that it doesn’t hurt me as much when I fall because I’m really close to the ground. 😊

    2. KellyD: Ahhhh….but Columbo had that ruffled bumbling charm. Many of his suspects enjoyed sparring with him, until that penitentiary cell door closed on them. Also, I believe I have seen every episode, practically. And when you put a couple of episodes together, from the writing, one learns that he is a certified genius, (maybe the way the show is written viewers were supposed to be able to discern that he was a genius, but I never personally made that great of leap in assessing his intelligence) that happens to like staying in his job. on the detective level, just the way it is. KellyD, I wonder if Mary Louise is a Genius….if so, Celeste may very well lose custody of her children. Jane could lose Ziggy to her, as well. I love the character Ziggy.

  27. nunya biz says:

    MMRN. Cerebral/Victim? Pity plays, highly manipulative, pretty damn good facade that she seems to use to her advantage.

    1. nunya biz says:

      She is very similar to my mother in law, who is mostly docile and fine but just randomly bombs you with passive aggressive remarks you cannot see coming. Just cannot. Like you fully believed she was nice just 30 seconds before. Then the snear. Or sometimes it’s said so innocently you think she’s just confused about interpersonal behavior.

      She also has some similarity to another MMRN cerebral I know. I notice a similar demeanor. Like a little bit of pretentious prudishness that is all facade, similar passive aggressiveness but less frequent and less aggressive. Really helpful to clearly see the overlap. I find this type tricky and have three examples in my life off the top of my head of being suckered by them.

      1. MommyPino says:

        NunyaBiz, she did remind me too of your MIL lol. I think that my BIL is an Upper MR and he has a more bulldog type of personality than what Mary Louise exhibits. I don’t remember seeing him do a pity play and he’s much more classier than her as well. I used to think that he was a Greater but he is not self aware so I have decided that he’s an UMR. I also think that MLW is a MMR. Possibly of a Victim cadre.

        1. nunya biz says:

          Hi MP, I made a comment on the Ed thread that I should tell you when you came back on comments that you were right about that. I didn’t think the character would be like my MIL, so it was funny. They are not exactly the same of course, my mil is far less goal-focused in her manipulations. Plus she really doesn’t like kids, so she wouldn’t try to take them. Actually she took us to show us where she bought her grave once and explained that it might be a little close to the edge where a couple of houses are and she was worried kids might play nearby her grave.

          1. MommyPino says:

            Ha! I had a feeling that she was very similar. Thankfully your MIL is not as goal-focused. Streep’s character here is very evil.

      2. misstasia says:

        I have an ex mother in law just like that and very similar to Mary Luise. I hate her.

        1. nunya biz says:

          misstasia, mine is hate-able. It took me longer than it should have to understand what she is doing.

  28. K says:

    Mary Louise Wright reminds me of my paternal grandmother, all pity plays, facade, gas lighting, smearing and cold fury. I think she is a MMRN.

    1. K says:

      Mary Louise is waiting for Jane at her place of employment (stalking) and she introduces herself.

      ML: I’m sorry to trouble you here at work, but, um…Celeste has shared with me some …interesting news. How would you feel about submitting to a paternity test? I mean submitting Ziggy to a paternity test.

      (False contrition, entitlement, a complete lack of boundaries and empathy and she glosses over the rape by referring to it as “interesting news”; gas lighting)

      Jane: I…Yeah, I don’t need to take a paternity test. I know exactly who my son’s father is.

      ML: Hmm. Even so… (provocative)

      Jane: I’m not asking you for anything.

      ML: No, I — I realize that. (Chuckles) I suppose I’m asking. (information gathering, entitlement, lack of boundaries and empathy)

      Jane: for what?

      ML: Well, I’m presented with the idea that my son was both an adulterer and a… (HUSHED) a rapist, and I am desperate to squash that idea.
      (she can’t accept the truth so she wants to deny/rewrite it; gas lighting)

      Jane: Well, I can tell you that he’s the only man I’ld been with.

      ML: That you recall. (provocative, lack of empathy, gas lighting)

      Jane: Excuse me?

      ML: Well, things happen these days. Men put drugs in pretty girls’ drinks, and things happen. People don’t remember sometimes. (blame shifting, down playing what really happened, rewriting the script)

      Jane: I remember. Perfectly. Far more vividly than I care to.

      ML: Just a simple Blood test. (salami slicing, lack or boundaries and empathy)

      Jane: No.

      (Jane was malign hoovered by Mary Louise)

  29. alexissmith2016 says:

    Copy and paste from what I wrote the other day. I’ve not seen E6, I didn’t realise it was on last night! oh god! And I have too many deadlines to watch it today. Obviously not too many to come on here hahaha

    Perry’s mum to Renata “you seem like a very nice person who lives in a very big house (sneer) with no furniture”. Ah blimey! Ouch!

    Hmmm I’m pretty certain she’s a greater.

    She is cold and calculating. She wants to take the kids not because she cares about their welfare, just to win.

    She shows emotional empathy

    She has a sadistic streak and planned the whole thing out before she even moved into celeste’s home. She knows everyone’s vulnerabilities as per above quote plus comment she made to Madeline and her daughter re “oh is this the girl whose off to college”. And she picks up on their insecurities in an instant. Can only be a greater. Even the mids who think they’re Ns can’t do this, they think they can but they can’t.

    She does not care whether people like her or not. She has a Margaret thatcher like quality about her which I find interesting. I do not know anything about Meryl Streep so I’m unsure whether this is her natural persona hence her getting picked for this as well as to play the part of Margaret thatcher or the director picking the actors and actresses saw her in Margaret thatcher knows that Maggie was a greater and saw what a great job she did at playing that and so picked her based on that.

    I’m no film buff and embarrass to admit that although I know Meryl is an amazing actress I’ve not actually seen any of her movies (shame on me I know) I just don’t watch too much tv or films.

    My husband is wondering what the hell has happened to me binge watching a tv series. He knows it’s incredibly peculiar and wants to know why lol.

    Anyway total tangent

    I’m off to read fuel matrix part 3 to see where she fits

    1. alexissmith2016 says:

      damn! cognitive empathy not emotional!

    2. WokeAF says:

      If I had to honestly guess how many times I’ve listened to the fuel matrix in the last two years ? I’d say….25 – 30 x for mid rangers ,
      10 – 15 x for lessers and Greaters . No joke. I re-listen at least once a month bc it makes more and more sense each time
      Defin the fuel matrix is an invaluable learning tool.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        The application of logic.

    3. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

      Alexis: I love film, I am not a buff, but I too am largely unacquainted with Meryl Streep’s acting. Although she is constantly praised. I am curious, but I do not want to watch any soggy type film, if that is her forte.

  30. PrincessSuperEmpath says:

    Dearest HG: Mary Louise. sigh… I was feeling quite pleased with myself on my assessments until this photo popped up. Mary Louise. Sigh….. back to the drawing board…. sigh…. I hope, yes, hope, to report back later….

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