Your World In My Eyes

 

YOUR WORLD

I want you to look into my eyes and there you will find yourself. You will see everything that you have ever desired in my eyes. Every hope you have will shine from my eyes, everything you have every wanted will be visible to you. However, you will not look on the ordinary version of those things that you covet. You will see the enhanced variety, the shining and gleaming types of those things which you hold dear. I want you to stare deep into my eyes and focus on what you find there. Allow yourself to become absorbed by those deep pools of desire as you begin to lose yourself. It is only natural to want to fall into what you see, to let go of those constraints and inhibitions so that you become consumed totally by what you are looking upon. No harm can come of it for you are only staring at the very things which matter to you. Honesty, humility, humour and desire. Integrity, values and passion. Everything which you regard as a virtue can be seen in the world that I have created in my eyes. What you tell me, both directly and indirectly, will invariably come into your view within a matter of moments. It is like a far flung barren planet which has been discovered by intergalactic explorers who commence terraforming of the planet in order to make it habitable. Everything you want becomes a reality as they are formed in this world right before you. The interests you have appear; the places you enjoy visiting come into view and the events that you like to attend flare up. You are hypnotised as this wonderful world forms in my eyes, all generated by you although you are so taken by the process and what you see that you do not realise that all I am doing is taking the materials that you are furnishing me with and replicating all those things that you want to see. I am skilled in ensuring you tell me everything about yourself to add to all the preparatory work that I undertook before I made my move. Like ingredients in a particularly delicious cocktail I combine all of these things which matter to you and weave my magic to create a drink which you will never want to stop drinking. It is intoxicating and invigorating, an addictive concoction that once you have taken your first sip you will continue to draw deep on. You have no chance to escape because from the moment I cause you to look deep into my eyes I show you all the things that you want. I show you the world where you are queen, where nothing will ever hurt you, where your true worth has been recognised by me. This world is perfect. Everything is in its place and accords with your values. You ever stop to question how is it that I have been able to create this world so accurately and so brilliantly. You do not query how this creation is so magnificent because it is everything that you have always wanted. From the fairy tale existence you promised yourself as a young girl through to the correct treatment that you deserve as the decent person that you are, everything appears on this world which I have tailor made for you. It is captivating, mesmerising and alluring. You want this world more than anything you have ever known. You want to be absorbed by it and to fall deep into its fabric, cossetted by the security that it provides. Nothing goes wrong on this world, it is a clear utopia and best of all it is right there before you. All you need to do is maintain my gaze, letting yourself fall deep, deep into this marvellous world and everything will be alright. Everything will remain wonderful.

What you never realise is that this world will be consumed in an instance. In just one blink, this utopia will be obliterated and it will be as if it never existed. The dark inky pools that are the reality of these eyes will devour this created world, erasing it just as readily as a black hole consuming a planet. Once again the darkness will take hold and annihilate the fabrication which you held so dear. Even when this happens you will go on searching though. You will stare deep into my eyes, trying to find this world again amidst the ink-black darkness. There is no light that can shine any longer which may just happen to illuminate where this world has gone to. The darkness is absolute because it is the darkness that is the reality. Not that it will stop you trying. You will keep looking and searching, trying to find the perfect world once again, hoping for it to emerge into the light once again. You will keep trying and that is why we show you the world in our eyes.

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408 Comments

  1. Interesting comments, y’all. I’ve been mostly away for a few weeks and was wondering where the action was.

    Those who speak of dullness – I was where you are about a year ago. It took something real to jerk me out of it because it is just a fantasy and to be honest, narc would get dull too – after all, how exciting can someone so predictable with his silly hoovers and facade be after awhile? And then I began to heal. I’d say out of everything I did during the healing process, including dating, the one thing that shifted me entirely was travel.

    To those of you who wonder where life’s excitement is, but who don’t want to cheat on your partner or get involved in an affair with, god forbid another narc, and are maybe sick of dating too, take a trip. Travel, and not to the grocery store. Immerse yourself in a different world for awhile and you will come out of your funk. Guaranteed.

    MB, special words for you – I admire that you have stayed with your husband even though you are not attracted to him. I found your comment that maybe he is your half brother quite funny! I could never in a million years stick around but I am a commitment-phobe. Not as bad as a narc but worse than a lot of the people on here. Long marriages are a complete mystery to me so I have no advice except what I said above, to go somewhere. It won’t solve your problems with your husband but it will erase the dullness.

    SP, also special words for you – I did not know you were bi. I am not (I don’t think), though I had a bi male partner for awhile (as well as a gay male one). I am not attracted to women except emotionally, but lesbians have this thing for me. Maybe that is connected to the men with only daughters having a thing for me too. Two of the great mysteries of my life.

    Hope everyone has a good day. I finally have a chance to lie down on the sofa and do nothing but wonder if I should get a haircut (comments about that somewhere on here too) before next trip next week.

    1. SMH: I traveled too much in the U,S. growing up with my family (not for any bad reasons) all the way until I was independent after University including attending 2 different Universities in 2 different states. and then deciding to live in NYC and constantly changing apartments a lot, thereafter (common in this city though). All I wanted was to stay put. But, sometimes we outgrow a way of being, without realizing it, but the habit is still there, all comfortable and hiding out. It is time for me to travel, because I want to and not because I have to. MB, you are absolutely right and you have confirmed and underlined something that has been on my mind for a little while, thank you.

      1. PSE, I’ve always thought that travel cures a lot. We got moved around when I was growing up too and I also go through periods of needing to stay put. But like most things in life that make other people feel stable – jobs, partners, etc – staying put eventually makes me feel trapped. It kind of goes with the not understanding long marriages thing. I don’t often think things out – I just do them and let the cards fall where they may. I have yet to find a partner who tolerates my behavior. Every single one has told me that I do what I want regardless of them and it is true. I cannot even sit at the table to eat. I eat standing up or on the sofa no matter who is around unless I have specially invited dinner guests. MRN came close to understanding my restlessness, but even he was disturbed by my freedom and he never would have tolerated it in an IPPS. He described his home life as a snow globe that often felt suffocating, so he would be drawn to it, want to stay awhile, and then bust out. Of course I was outside while IPPS was inside. Talk about compartmentalization and split selves! Anyway, I am already planning my next trip (and I have one next week as well). Glad you are too!

  2. MB, I wanted to share something with you; I hope you don’t mind. Due to high emotional thinking right now, I haven’t been visiting the blog as often or paying attention to many of the comments. Of the ones that I did see, I read your comments about your recent driving experience (I couldn’t remember which article it was posted to; tried to do a quick find to send you this message but am pulled over in a random aisle at the grocery store). I wanted to let you know that I just had an experience at the grocery store that made me think of you. First, I’m sorry you had that experience. I agree with Caroline who said it reflects him, not you, and it has to do with how he handles issues in general not issues with you specifically. On this trip to the store, I was trying to get around a display and a lady had her cart sitting in the middle of the aisle. I said “excuse me” at least 4 times and she did nothing. In my head I was thinking “move your effin a**” but externally I worked my cart around everything trying not to bump her. I thought of your story and how you would have had a different internal dialogue. My internal thoughts weren’t nice, but I’m glad that I did see the comments regarding your story as it helped me realign my thoughts. I hope you are doing well!

    1. Getting There, thank you for reading. I could tell you so many of these same type stories, but you get the gist of the life and times. I have many grocery store incidents too. It is very narcissistic and rude for people to park their carts in the middle of he aisle while they talk on the phone. Obviously not you since you pulled to the side to talk to me. It does irk me and I do think in my head what a jerk they are. But rather that “inconvenience” THEM, or even say “excuse me” you want to know what I do? Please don’t judge! I go over to the next aisle and come back up to where they are on the other side to get what I need. Most of the time they’ve moved at least a little bit in case they were blocking something I need. If not, I will say excuse me if I really have to. There have been times that I’ll finish my shopping and come back to get what I needed that they were blocking. Yes, my needs really arE THAT unimportant. And really DO avoid confrontation that vehemently.

      1. Hello, MB.
        I understand how annoying it is to have people block the aisles or products! I chose an aisle no one was using (apparently not a lot of use for car items during that time).

        I tend to stand there and just wait, unless I am not feeling like standing there. Then I am willing to go after what I need with an “excuse me.” Driving is a different story. I learned how to drive in the US East Coast. I don’t flick off and do my best to ensure other drivers don’t see my frustration. I will honk though if the person is not paying attention and trying to come in my lane with me right there.

        No judgment here! I wish I could wave a wand and you would get the power to know that your needs and wants are important; you are important! One thing i am slowly realizing (sloths move faster) is that so many of us are taught to always put others first; our needs and wants are not as important (“you’re having a bad time with the heat? Oh imagine if you were homeless right now in this heat.”); and putting ourselves at any level equal to others is selfish. I read the book “Boundaries” and that was great for the short term realization that it is ok to think my wants and needs are not always selfish. Someone reminded me that one of the Commandments says to love others as we love ourselves. There is a two-part aspect to that, not just the love others part.

        On the positive side, I’m not sure if you’re an extrovert outside the blog, but I have found that grocery store conversations can be interesting! People tend to tell you all sorts of things just by the initial discussion of a mutual interest item or that initial “excuse me.” One time I was in the British food aisle at a grocery store and based on whatever it was that moment, this woman started to talk with me over chocolate covered biscuits and then shared with me about her and her husband’s life, and then shared that a sibling just died that week in England. I learned so much just because we both wanted the biscuits.

        1. GT, Yes, I am an extrovert. I enjoy talking to people, just not confrontation. Like you, I find conversations nearly everywhere I go. I am on the US East Coast too in the south. (Where ladies are polite.) I only use my car horn in instances where it may truly avoid an accident. I’ll beep lightly if somebody is backing out of a space and doesn’t see me or like you said if they are coming into my lane. Using the car horn as a weapon is a pet peeve of mine. If somebody makes a mistake or even does something stupid. As long as there isn’t an accident, I consider it a success. All’s well that ends well!

      2. I didn’t know where this was going MB, I thought perhaps you were going to say you came back and dropped a few bottles of lube in their trolley or put some of their juicy looking items back on the shelves 😂😂😂

        1. AS2016, that would have made for a better story! I agree. But alas I’m too “nice” for even passive aggressive confrontation. 😩

          1. AS2016, I’m beginning to resign myself to the fact that “bad ass” just isn’t in my DNA!

          2. MB. Please do not worry about it overly much. There is a season for everything. It is a crazy world with a lot of psychos out there. For example, I read also that one out of seven Americans is dependent on drugs, both legal and illegal drugs. So, all these people are going about their day in various altered states of reality. So, it is not the season to carry yourself in a `rambunctious` manner as you go out and about during your daily life. In short, it is not safe to be overly defensive these days. Many people are just dying for a challenge so that they can act out. Your way can save you plenty of trouble in your life, right now. Your personality is in the right season to be of use to benefit you in many occurances. Narcissists also are in their season. They can generally trounce though as many people as they can, and barely anyone thinks it is a problem. Especially in large cities. In fact, the media glamorizes this behaviour. Greed is Good, right? Yes, says The Mean Girls! Once upon a time, only rock stars and actors and athletes, and motorcycle gangs, etc. (mainly the men, of course), were winked at for their repeated shenanigans and mischief, but now women also receive the wink, and any random guy next door also receives the wink.

          3. I also wanted to say I second NA’s advice to Lorelei on same-sex-sex, although I don’t think Lorelei will want to repeat it based on her words. I find oral sex with men more work than the opposite though. And I apologize for using MB as a reply portal but the other option was Getting Out There and the poor thing was just talking about aggressive drivers, I didn’t want to give her a heart attack.

          4. It’s all good SP. I can’t contribute to the same sex-sex convo. It is interesting though. I don’t know any bisexuals IRL. I’ve never been even remotely attracted to women so I can’t relate. Carry on. I’ll look on and learn.

          5. Well you know me now although not in RL. Being bi and saying it is not easy. I think we are the most hated part of the LGBTQ spectrum. Typical things you hear: “it’s just a phase,” “how can you be bisexual if you are married to a man?” “You are really gay and don’t want to come out of the closet” “but what do you prefer?”Not to mention the many times people correlate bisexuality with narcissism.

          6. SP, I’m serious when I say I have no opinion or judgement one way or the other. You’re just SP to me. One’s sexuality doesn’t define them as a human being. My only question (or I guess it’s a comment) is this: obviously, your husband isn’t a woman so either you are squelching your natural desires or there is infidelity in your marriage. Of course infidelity is fluid for many couples and I’ve heard of threesomes, so there is that which could be enjoyable to all participants. Anyway, comment only if you want to. I learn so much here about all kinds of stuff!

          7. MB, that is a legitimate question and I can only answer from my own experience and impressions. Like with synesthesia, the fact I think a letter in a specific color doesn’t mean it’s the same color for other synesthetes either. So to me, accepting I’m bisexual (which is a term I don’t agree with because I don’t believe in gender binary, I prefer “pansexual” or sexually fluid) just means that I don’t perceive gender as a limitation for feeling attraction for someone. Rotten teeth yes, gender no, hahaha. I have also felt extremely attracted to a transgender colleague for instance. But that doesn’t affect any possibility to be unfaithful. I don’t miss being with a woman or being with a man. What I can miss at a given point is feeling wanted, valued, romanced, the mystery of the first flirtation moments, nice gifts, company … notice I only cheated once, and it happened to be with another men! So it wasn’t because I missed being with a woman. We were about to have a polyamory relationship with another woman. Not just sex. I love her and my husband likes her too and she would give anything to be part of our lives and live with us both but I realized she just was in love with me and wanted me alone not my husband and I didn’t want that.

          8. SP, thank you for your reply. It makes more sense now. Love is love. I’m glad you realized about the girl being in love with only you. That triangle sounded like a disaster waiting to happen!

          9. Sweetest my love,
            It has taken me awhile to reply to this comment since I found out about it the other evening, I just didn’t know if I was ready to do this yet? I think I was to concerned about be judged by others on here, but I’m not anymore, I don’t care what they think or what they say. You and Abe are not the only ones on here who have been in relationships with married people. I’m right there with you. You see this is what happens when you are sexually abused from the time you can walk, you find yourself being involved with narcissists time and time again. I married one and I cheated time and time again. Why? I became a co-dependent addicted to narcissists, addicted and chained to the man I thought would protect me, so there would be no more sexual abuse. What I didn’t see coming was he was an abusive alcoholic and ( as I found out from HG ) a narcissist. Whether it was to get back at him or simply to have someone want me and give me attention or perhaps a little bit of both I still cannot answer that question. I do know it wasn’t about the sex, ( even though I am quite sexual ) I used the sex and the things I was good at to please them, in exchange they were good to me ( in the beginning) and gave me the attention that I was so desperately seeking. So I do understand you SP, it’s not about the sex or whether they are male or female, it’s about the feelings you have for that person and the feelings ( if they are not narcissists ) that they have for us. You are right when you say no one else and what they think matters, it’s HG who I work with and who stands beside me and doesn’t judge, that’s something that has always baffled me , here we are all empaths, judging each other, fighting for the spotlight, fighting for HGs attention and approval, jealous if it seems someone is getting more of his attention then the other one is. But it is the narcissist that doesn’t judge or play favorites, always presenting the facts and logic that none of us seem to have. How many times has someone new come to the blog and we welcome them and tell them how wonderful this place is and how amazing the people are that are on here? We should be ashamed of ourselves for acting in this way, we should all look in a mirror and judge ourselves first before we judge anyone else. Sweetest I’m sorry for the way some people make you feel, you are an amazing intelligent woman and it’s been a pleasure commenting back and forth with you my friend. 💞

          10. FM1T, thanks so much for your kind words and for sharing your experiences; I cannot think of a more horrendous way of going through your childhood, I’m deeply sorry some pervert stole that part of your life and I am sorry that made you become a magnet for abusive relationships. I didn’t know you also were part of the club that I have just baptized as ….. Double Dirty Empath or DDE! (just made it up). Dirty … with a twist! I seriously don’t care about anyone’s judgmental opinions or about any pseudo-informed unsolicited analyses of our situation anyone here may want to throw in. I don’t even know why anyone would believe she/he has any authority to describe our entanglement, to even doubt whether we were with a narcissist, or to call us home wreckers. Last time I checked, HG was running the blog and he was the expert, did I miss something? Because I’m not willing to give anyone but HG carte blanche to define my situation. Interestingly, the hypocrisy and double morale is so obvious that sometimes it goes by without being noticed. But I don’t blame anyone in particular, it’s engraved in our society; for example, many commenters here have been unfaithful to their partners with a narc, while others have been entangled with a married narc. But I noticed it is just the ones in my (our) situation the ones that have been asked about our responsibility for the other person’s partner and have been called home wreckers. On the other hand, it is not uncommon to question the bisexual person, however, no one thinks of asking other commenters why they had sex with women in the past. I don’t know if anyone has noticed, but I talk to everyone in the blog, even the ones who are hostile to me. I have not insulted anyone on purpose, I mocked Pamela just because she was being mean to everyone and even in her case it took me a while because I sincerely liked her at first. I read and I read very well because that’s actually a big part of my job. And I’m not stupid. I have been passive-aggressively been called a narcissist, an arrogant for discussing a topic that pertains to my expertise (yes, it does, although I refuse to reveal too much info about my work here) and a person with too much leisure time. But I’m not in this blog for these people, and I’m not in the blog to try to seduce or impress HG either, anyone that has been learning how to use logical thinking would know this is the worst idea ever. I’m in the blog to learn from him, and not from anyone else. Thank you for reaching out, FM1T. You are very loved ❤️❤️❤️

          11. SP,
            You are quite welcome. As I said before it took a lot of consideration on my part before I decided to comment. I wasn’t sure if I could handle the judgment that some might have of me. As far as I have come with all of this I still have a long way to go, on some days like the past few days my ET is extremely high, I struggle with moving forward as I have been doing or simply going back to what I know. I know some do not understand the addiction to narcissists and the hold it can have on a person, I have been groomed and conditioned from a very young age by a narcissist who was just pure evil! People do not understand the addiction and how strong it is, I have just started to begin to understand it. The ones who call us home wreckers simply do not understand that no one or anything can stand in the way of being with that narcissist! They feed us lies upon lies and we believe everyone of them. They are our drug just as the fuel we feed them is there’s. Perhaps it is this addiction that causes some to seduce or impress HG? Maybe they do not realize the addiction they have to narcissists at this time in their healing, and this is what causes them to forget that he has a girlfriend that probably would not like what they are saying or doing, I just don’t know. I am learning to not care so much what other’s think of me and perhaps you should do the same thing SP, you have always been one to step up to help someone and yes you have tried to be kind to everyone on here, but sometimes even that is not enough for some. I don’t like the drama and bickering between us, it takes away from the importance of this blog and the learning that goes on here and that is a shame it really is. There have been times ( especially recently) that I just want to say fuck it and leave here and never come back to this place, the feeling of being drained of my emotions is just to much to handle. But then I receive a comment such as yours or as I’m reading the comments of others I might see someone new to the blog who is reaching out for answers and help, maybe their is someone already commenting and helping them or maybe I am the first to see them, it is at times such as this that I remember why I keep coming back. It’s people like you, Lorelei, NA, MB, Abe, and so many other’s that I would miss commenting and laughing with, it is HG and all of the time and effort not only on here but also through consults that he has spent working with me and helping me to get through all of this. Thank you SP for being the kind and honest person that you are! That love I’m sending right back to you. 😘💞

          12. FM1T, ahhhh I don’t wanna cry I don’t wanna cry… nobody is gonna judge you here. And if anyone does 🖕🏽Sometimes I think this blog is like Orange is the New Black, with treasons, jealousy, clicks… People are people so why should it be? But it is natural to have antagonistic reactions in a blog especially full of hyper-emotional participants. This sentence made me smile “forget that he has a girlfriend that probably would not like what they are saying or doing,” haha to me it’s more like: they forget that he is an Ultra Elite Narcissist Psychopath! I am sure I am not saying anything offensive as HG himself asked a member of the blog recently why would you want to get entangled with a psychopath. Some people here are clearly losing their aim. I have a very clear goal. I wanna get clean of this virus and I want it out of my system ASAP. In the meantime I have met fantastic people like you and a long list that I don’t want to reproduce here for fear of omitting someone. Don’t ever feel judged or inferior, and remember, we will always have mussels (and Paris/ the beach). HG, you may not be aware because your kind doesn’t establish attachments, but not only is this blog a floating device for all the people that are sinking in the residual waters of narcissistic relationships, but also and probably as a collateral benefit totally unintentional, it creates bonds and love links stronger and wider than any narc’s fuel matrix. We won’t ever meet in real life as we will never meet you, (hopefully) but the feelings and the bonds are there. Should we thank you for that? Thank you.

          13. Yes Sweetest we will always have mussels ( and Paris/the beach). ❤️

          14. Well, then…

            I care about you, FM1T, and I know and feel that you care about me! 🙂

            It’s hard for me to say it otherwise (maybe because I’m a man, maybe because of my cultural background, or god knows what else…)

            Don’t judge yourself harshly about finding it hard to comment here sometimes.
            You certainly have been braver than me, and I admire you for that. Seeing someone who’s been through so much in her life evolving and having the guts to speak up is nothing short of amazing. I hope you also feel amazing and free when doing it!

          15. Thank you Abe. Yes it does feel amazing to finally have worked up enough courage to speak up, I have to Thank HG for that one and the way he ( gently pushed me) to do so.
            Abe you mentioned your cultural background, I believe at times people may forget that this blog is like a huge melting pot of people from all walks of life and yes we are going to see things differently then others because of that culture, don’t you Abe? 😊

          16. “Yes it does feel amazing to finally have worked up enough courage”

            MB, where are you? Do you hear this? 🙂

            “don’t you Abe?”

            Yes, we’re all going to see things differently, and this is a good thing actually.

            I guess in this context it is understandable that it’s hard to always keep the good balance between being assertive and being (passive-)aggressive.
            However, we should strive for that and keep our eyes open for when we step over that thin line.

            Anyway, we only have control over ourselves, and this is also one of the most important lessons, I think, whether we interact with a narcissist or with a non-narc. No expectations.

          17. Abe,
            That thin line at times is almost invisible.

            I’m sure MB will be here at any time now. I believe she is out taking care of the unicorns 🦄, now that she has rescued them from HG. Shhhh, don’t tell him! 🙃

          18. FM1T,

            Damn, this time I’m really jealous on you girls here for being able to say “I love you” to each other and nobody even raises a brow or something…

            I’ll stick to “Thank you” and giving you a big hug, I hope this is less inappropriate.

          19. Abe,
            Some of the people on here are like family to me and I care about them very much. We are all so different in very many ways but all have that one connection, narcissists. For me to tell them that I love them is as natural to me as breathing. I have been with the blog almost four years to the day and some have been here with me the whole time. Commenting on here was never easy for me and there are still days that I find it difficult to do, but some on here have helped make that possible for me to do. There has never been to many men that have commented and the ones that have are not as involved as you have been, some simply ask a question or two to HG and that is the extent of it. You have taken the time to not only comment but offer advice as well. For me to love someone the way I do some on here is strictly not just for women. You should not ever feel inappropriate for caring for another regardless if it is a man or woman. Some of us have been hurt very deeply by the acts of a narcissist, being able to tell them how important they are to me and how much they have helped me hopefully will lesson some of that hurt. Abe, do not be jealous or feel that it is inappropriate to say the words that simply mean you care. So without caring if someone raises a brow or worrying about it being inappropriate, I love you my friend and take care. 😊

          20. And thank you for saying to you I’m just SP. Wait till I tell you that’s not my real name 🤣🤣

          21. SweetP
            Comments born of ignorance and in most cases born of imposed morals and societal beliefs. I’m sorry you experience that. It is beyond me why in a world devoid of much of it, why people feel the need to comment or insult anyone exchanging consensual love, affection, and intimacy with another no matter the preference in partner or label.

          22. Thank you, NA. This is an extraordinarily rare occurrence in which you didn’t make me laugh but the opposite. Just a teardrop though. ❤️

          23. Oh! I forgot this one: “Are you looking at me that way?” -No, idiot, you’re my friend. And you’re not my type.

          24. SP, I hope my comment/question wasn’t offensive. I’m ignorant when it comes to these issues and I’m truly curious and want to learn. If it was insensitive, I apologize and forgive me.

          25. MB, it was not offensive at all. Most people are ignorant about it and offensive too, implying bisexuality equals promiscuity. I have a question: if having sex with men is within the nature of most women here, why didn’t you ask any of the commenters that said they were taking a break from dating/sex whether that goes against their natural needs? Many questions I receive have a very logical answer, it’s just that heterosexual people are not usually triggered to see another angle.

          26. SP, I thought the same thing! I even typed that I could have answered my own question if I had thought it through. It’s not about a preference at all. Love is love. Your husband is your partner, you love him so you are with him. Simple as that. Overlook my hetero blinders! 😊

          27. On a funny note, when my narc found out I am bisexual, he wanted to be more bisexual. He started flirting with men on social media and hanging out with gay guys… just to prove he was the king of bisexuality. I guess that was another trait he wanted to take away from me. What an idiot. GAAAADDD what was I thinking!?

          28. Oh I would sleep with Scarlet Johansson. Don’t count me out 100%. Unshaven (just a few days) really hot cologned men though rule the day. And tall men. Sadly I’m behaving for a long while.

          29. Lorelei, I like the aesthetic part of unshaven for a couple of days, but when my husband looks like that I prefer to wait until a) he shaves totally or b) it grows into a full beard. Because it burns my skin!!!

          30. It’s really good to look at though! I only thought of it because I saw one the other day. But at least I have my dental whitening strips.

          31. Lorelei,

            “Oh I would sleep with Scarlet Johansson”

            Yeah, me too!🙂

          32. MB,

            Yes, damn, I’m really jealous now!
            I just lost my chance at sleeping with SJ… 🙁

          33. That’s the point of triangulation Abe! He only wanted her because you did 😉

          34. HG, what has happened to the gravatars? You’ve turned everyone without one into cute little monsters!

          35. In the dreams you don’t have! She is all mine. I’ll even figure out the sex thing.

          36. You all can have her, not my type at all. That is, as long as HG doesn’t show up first …

          37. Sweet P
            Thank you for sharing your heart with us.
            It’s good to have your company here.
            I imagine that it must have been difficult coming out as bi.
            Becoming your authentic self, and finding your voice is an important part of personal growth, and can be an enormous challenge, especially when family roles proscribe any deviation from who they think you are, and this from the N-parent particularly.

          38. Hello, SP.

            No worries of giving me a heart attack. Sexual acts while driving can add to aggressive driving. LOL

          39. Haha, I just thought it would be a very unrelated irruption into your thread.

      3. MB and Getting There

        Here comes NA up the aisle. I have no issue with either of you (not really you two) or both, stopping in the aisle to shop or even to chat. I do expect that manners dictate that you will pull over to the side and not stand like dazed cattle swatting flies in the centre. I also assume that as most people have some peripheral vision and can sense someone in close proximity, so do you as well. I suppose it happens, but I find it hard to believe that people can become so engrossed in the ingredients of mustard that they don’t know you are there, especially given that the carts, my shoes, (and occasionally my thighs) make noise. Therefore, if you make no move I assume you are rude, but in the event that you may be deaf , when I approach, I will pause two Mississippi’s before I wordlessly (but gently) push your cart out of the way several steps away from you and proceed on. God help you if you are on your phone. I will ram your cart forcefully with mine. I see this as you having lack of manners and disregard for others using the facility. I do not see it as confrontation, but as showing you consideration and the restraint required not to take you out at the knees.

        1. NA, you make me laugh. “restraint required not to take you out at the knees”

          I’m not so much afraid to move the cart as I am of their reaction when I do. If they have something to say about you moving their cart, do you engage or walk away?

          1. MB
            I say nothing. Most do nothing, but I have had some snort or say hey! I just keep on walking. With one particularly vocal woman, I put my fingers together like a moving mouth with my back to her and kept walking. Haha, if you are rude to me you are going to stew for a bit yourself. On the other hand, I have also come upon someone who moves out of the way but seems confused. I will ask if I can help, and on occasion have climbed up on displays to reach something for them or read if they’ve forgotten their glasses. I’m not always an asshole. Just if you are, I like to show you you’re not very good at it.

          2. NA, I like your stories. I tend to find myself helping people in the store often as well.

          3. MB
            I usually do as you do and try to go around them or go up another aisle, this morning however was a different story all together. I was in a rush to purchase a few things for a sick family member, now my nerves are shot I’m tired, it’s hot, and I absolutely hate Walmart! I go up an aisle and this women and her cart are parked in the middle of the aisle just standing there, as I approach her she makes no attempt to move over to the side. Instead she gives me this evil look, I say excuse me, she is still staring, so I try one more time, excuse me would you move your cart to the side please? She is still starring at me. That was all I could take! I pushed forward, I grabbed her cart to push it out of the way and to the side, she’s holding on to it so as the cart is going off to the side so is she and it rams into a shelf. Needless to say things start falling from the shelf, I grabbed my cart and push past her and continue down the aisle as she is bitching and picking things up that have fallen onto the floor. I turned and yelled down the aisle to her, you have a nice day now Ma’am and try to stay cool, it’s hot outside. For fucks sake what is wrong with people? That could have all been avoided if she would have just moved her cart out of my way.

          4. FM1T
            Good for you in not allowing yourself to be disrespected. Don’t start feeling guilty either. You gave them the option politely and they declined and decided to test you instead. Boundaries are necessary and establishing your line of being at the very least acknowledged is a good one to start with. Nice touch in wishing her a good day and looking out for her health. That made me laugh.

          5. NA
            I was just so tired of always being so damn kind! Her starring at me just pissed me off more. At the end when I heard her bitching, being kind was what I taught all of my employees that worked for me. The more they bitch the nicer you are. Customers absolutely hate that because they want to rattle your cage and some even want a confrontation with you. It was the only thing that came to my mind other then go fuck your self! Hahaha

          6. FM1T, I think it’s blazing hot across the entire US. I’m sweltering here in N.C. too. I think the humidity is 100%. If you go outside, it feels like you’re drowning in hot air!

          7. MB

            You’re right it’s the humidity. I can handle the hotter temperatures but to be outside and feel as if there is no oxygen in the air is just stifling. Hopefully a cool down tomorrow? Stay cool dear.

          8. FM1T, I’m staying inside (to my dismay). The air conditioning can’t even keep up. Don’t get me wrong though. I love summer! Long live summer.

          9. MB, I tried to stay inside and I feel trapped! So I was out for a little while today and will definitely be going back out for a run or walk this evening. Not that it’s any cooler in the evening, the sun isn’t out so that helps. But I agree with you, long live summer! 🙃

          10. MB,
            NC is beautiful!
            It’s interesting but you mentioning NC just made me think of a guy from my past. Up until this memory I thought my first narcissist experience was my ex husband. I remember this guy and I went out once (we lived in different states); I received two dozen roses from him just because; as nice as he seemed something wasn’t right for me so much so that I didn’t inform him when I was in NC where he lived until it was too late. My last straw with him was him dreaming up spending time together and his description included us people watching and making fun of a certain group. I was done with him then. I wonder if he was my first narcissist experience. Other than that, your state and the food there was great!
            Stay cool and Happy National Ice Cream day to all!

          11. GT, North Carolina is a beautiful state indeed. Narcissists are everywhere, though. No place is immune. Now that I’ve been educated, I’ve thought back over my life and realized just how many narcs I’ve interacted with. Some very close calls sprinkled throughout. I had no idea at the time. It’s scary when think about it. It’s National Ice Cream Day?!? Time to celebrate! Don’t tell the BMI police!

          12. He was gorgeous MB. I was absolutely smitten from age 16-19. He was also a rich kid in lots of legal trouble and had to go to jail briefly. I got an early start.

          13. Lorelei, have you been hoovered? It’s never too late you know. (Unless he died)

          14. Not by him but by two other people in the last week to be entirely forthright. He’s turned into a common lesser probably. He was bright, good family, but had a penchant for criminal behavior. His grammar and writing actually quite good, but his life goals were akin to functioning as a loser. I’ve experienced many flavors. He was pretty though—I’m a sucker for somatics.

          15. Lorelei, I’m beginning to think you could give our resident sexpert, NA a run for her money! Aren’t we all suckers for good looking charmers.

          16. MB
            I’m no sexpert. Remember-I don’t bond through sex. HG knows more about what the average woman wants than I do lol.

          17. NA, I understand. HG goes without saying as a sexpert. You’re light years ahead of me. I’ve never even seen anal beads, much less know their utilization beyond my imagination. That’s what I mean about you being a sexpert 😊

          18. MB
            Well now that you’ve brought it up……Have you and your hubby never gone out for dinner and drinks and then wandered into a sex shop for a look around? You should. I mention drinks because inhibition is lowered and things might come to discussion that haven’t previously. If nothing comes to attention that you’d both like to try or there is too much embarrassment, you can always laugh it off as just having a look at what’s out there, but it will likely lead to some kind of discussion. Also, you can always return on your own if your partner expresses no interest (but I think he will be lying lol). It’s not all hard core btw and the staff have seen and heard everything. If you’re worried about seeing your neighbours or family members (and you well might lol), drive to another town. People can be afraid to approach the subject because they take offence to being seen as needing aid or assistance in pleasing the partner, or they might think the partner would be appalled at their suggestion and reject them. I think most people want to experiment but no one wants to be the one to bring it up despite the fact that the partner will likely be relieved that it’s out in the open.

          19. NA, this whole scenario makes me cringe. I would be so embarrassed! I’d rather experience death by 1000 needles than to even go into a sex shop alone, much less with him. Sex is a hurry up and get it over with experience for me with my husband. Not saying it isn’t enjoyable, it’s just that it’s never been an “event” and I certainly don’t want to start that now! I’m good with 15-20 mins. Much longer and I lose my focus of pretending he’s somebody else. I don’t think you can have a good sex life with somebody you’re not attracted to no matter how many toys you throw in the mix. I love him, but there is zero passion.

          20. Now that explains part of the “mundane” feeling…

            Why would you cringe in a sex shop? That’s ET 🙂.
            It should be interesting at least, if not fun.

            Toys might not be a turn on for you, but might be for your husband, although they apply to you.
            You might also find them helpful while alone (which is also an important part of a woman’s sexual life, or so I heard). If your husband is not selfish, he would also be delighted to know you’re using them in his absence.

            Anal beads usefulness… well, you never know until you try.

          21. Abe, alone time is an important part of man’s sex life too. Any man that says they don’t masturbate is most likely being untruthful. I don’t spend much time on sex in general since going NC in early Feb. I don’t enjoy it like I did before. My sex life is over 😩

          22. Man that says they don’t masturbate? This is outrageous! Who said that?

            “My sex life is over”

            C’mon, MB… This is the dullness speaking, and you know it.
            But I know what you mean…
            I don’t see any solution here other than throwing inhibitions out the window and discussing this with your husband and both putting the required effort into it. But only when it suits you.

            If appropriate, start with the oral-stuff article which I’m sure Lorelei will be thrilled to share with us for such a generous purpose!

          23. Abe, I’m curious. Only answer if you want to and are comfortable. If not, I understand. Did you learn to be a better lover by having the affair with N? If so, did your wife pick up on any new skills? Maybe she thought you had been reading some articles 😂

          24. Overall, I did learn a bit, but not much.

            Whatever I might have learned though, did not bring any positive outcome (so far) to my sexual experience with my wife. I’m still recovering my libido, many months after. Slowly, but steady progressing.

            Actually, I think I taught my Nx some new stuff… We did not have much time together, so I could not fully experiment with her. I don’t regret that, because, damn, why would I want to teach her new things to apply with others? She should do her own homework, not take advantage of this poor empath…

            We fitted very well in bed together, me and my Nx. She had a bit of a masochistic side (not much) which my wife does not share, and which fascinated me.

            But, other than that, I’d say during my long married relationship I got into much more kinky (and fun and satisfying) stuff with my wife… So, logically, I know very well where the real thing is!

            However, the novelty factor and the idealization, together with the carefully crafted desire bomb waiting to blow up, made for some really steamy encounters with my Nx. I’m not craving anymore for those, it feels nothing saying it. It’s just how it was.

          25. Abe, thank you for sharing. Good thing your wife didn’t pick up on any new skills. I’m pleased to hear that you feel nothing thinking about the desire bomb anymore. How long has it been?

            I’m ready to not long for that anymore. I know, I know, Zero Impact HG 🙂

          26. MB,

            Dates below are all approximate:
            1 year since last time I had sex with her
            10 months since she shelved me (or demoted to NIPSS, not clear)
            6 months since my first NC attempt
            3 months solid NC
            1 month since last meeting her (probably a hoover)

            You? 🙂

          27. Abe, it’s complicated. Met him 7 years ago. Crossed the “intimate” line around the 18 month mark. Disengaged/shelved for years 3 & 4. I’m on my third attempt at NC since his return. It’s not solid because I talk about him here and peek at his company’s website from time to time. I also think of him although it’s not obsessive like it was. (The NC is working!) I last communicated with him in late January of this year. Blocked since then. Haven’t unblocked even once. Proud to be behaving! Proud to say there was never any IRL sex.

          28. MB,

            Apologies in advance if what I write below makes you feel uncomfortable.
            I’m not judging, I’m just trying to help a little. Take it or leave it.

            What you need, I think, is a bit more trust in yourself, a bit more courage. Not much.
            And you can start by challenging yourself, getting out of your comfort zone, with little things like:
            – Get into that sex shop. What could go wrong? You might feel somewhat embarrassed, but it should also be interesting, right? Go in, take a technical approach to what you see, get out. Prove yourself you can do it. With or without your husband.
            – That woman parking her cart in the aisle and she won’t move? Smile, put your hand forward, push it a bit, say “Excuse me” and move on. She’s bitching about it? Ignore or say “Thank you” and even get away if she’s becoming too aggressive.
            – Talk to your husband about sex. Worst case – he might ignore you, nothing gained, nothing lost. But maybe he has something to say. Who knows, maybe you get to improve something.

            Get into this “I can do this shit” attitude, with small steps.

            At some point, you might be able to say “I just won’t crave or think about that bastard”, and the thinking will stop.
            It is also a matter of courage to say this to yourself and stick to it. And courage can be trained, within some limits.

          29. Abe, you didn’t make me feel uncomfortable. 😊 Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. You are absolutely correct. There is no growth without discomfort. Pushing beyond my comfort zone is certainly something I will consider as I go about my day to day life. I’ll watch for opportunities to be brave.

          30. Thank you Caroline-is-fine! I’ll listen every time I need a reminder. ❤️

          31. Omg Abe.. Ok. This is so embarrassing but it made the lightbulb go off. Oh no—I just can’t. I can’t.

          32. MB
            Ah. I thought you just wanted him to be more adventurous and try new things. So your attraction with the narcissist was in his words only and you didn’t think of doing things with him that you don’t experience with your husband. I’m just trying to understand the difference (in your attraction) between the narc and your husband. You prefer the mindgasm of the narc’s texts?

          33. NA, I think the bottom line is I’m not attracted to my husband. I was so attracted to N I could’ve eaten him alive. My mouth is watering now thinking about him. (Watch it ET!!)
            The phone sex with N sometimes lasting nearly an hour and including actualgasms was heaven on earth. If he was only HALF as good IRL, I’m not sure I’d survive the ecstasy of the experience. We did all kinds of things I don’t experience with my husband. I don’t want to leave this world never having experienced it for real. I’m having a tough time letting that go and resigning myself to being unfulfilled sexually. I swear, I’d drive the 14 hours to see him for just one single kiss. That’s how much I want him. I’ve never felt anything like that for my husband. If only I could blend the two together to make the perfect man.

          34. I’m joining in this conversation!

            MB, let me just start by saying… I completely understand how you feel. You have a stable marriage of 30 years with a lot of other great benefits to your life but the intimacy is lacking/non existent. That happens to so many people, no one wants to talk about it but it’s normal for it to all fade or disappear over the years.

            I myself had a 15 year relationship with a “normal” he had a lot of narc traits but didnt enjoy confrontation/game playing enough to Be a narc.

            Anyhow. Unlike you…. I easily expressed myself
            To him. I was young and sexually inexperienced, and had zero clue what I liked in bed. And neither did he. However I tried to bring up sexuality in many different ways… for example I can flirt… he couldn’t. I introduced games, all kinds of different ones… he was into that but couldn’t AT all get the hint the games Could Be foreplay ideas. I continually asked what his fantasies were and his answer was “I don’t know. For 15 years…. he’d say let’s try new things if you want to try new things but never actually tried them. The whole event would take 10 minutes from start to finish for the last 8 or 9 years of the relationship.

            Regardless of my unhappiness in this department I told myself all couples have issues and this just happened to be ours. And I put up with it for 15 years.

            The narc then comes along… and I had my sexual awakening. I had no clue I could even enjoy sex. I’d never even pleasured myself before the narc. I had no idea how I was so sexually turned off in my relationship.

            ALL of that is to say… sure you can express your needs, but chemistry Is chemistry… you have it or you don’t. I don’t think you can magically create that chemistry with someone. Unless…. did you have it at the beginning? Perhaps you could re create that in a sense.

            Another option for you and your hubby could Be opening up your marriage? Perhaps those outside experinces with the knowledge you are both wanting to contiune in the marriage could take away a lot of that pressure to “make it work” in that department.

            Although if you struggle expressing what you like in bed I can’t imagine that conversation would Be fun lol.

            Stay in your marriage. Learn to pleasure yourself. And take the pressure off. A lot of married couples stop having sex eventually.

          35. Empath007, I’m so glad you did join! You get it. And that’s a fresh look I haven’t considered. It wouldn’t work though because my narc trait of jealousy would cause me to claw another woman’s eyes out. And my husband would never countenance me being with another man. We’d be torn apart at just the suggestion. No, there’s never been any chemistry. God forgive me, but I was repulsed from the first moment. He wouldn’t give up though. Very persistent. I learned to love his good qualities and the way he treated me. He is a very good man and a wonderful provider. He’s my rock in life. My foundation and my safe place. I don’t think chemistry can be conjured where there is none. N was my sexual awakening too. I never knew it could be so thrilling. I wish I never had. I always thought there must be something I was missing based on movies and tv, but now I know for sure. When it comes right down to it though, if I have to choose, I’ll choose a peaceful life over mind blowing sex. After all, the Narc will only take it away. It won’t last.

          36. The sex wasn’t worth the narc for me
            Either. There were so many other issues and he made me feel worthless in general.

            It makes sense opening up your marriage would be difficult. I only mentioned it since from reading the comments you have both stepped outside of it at one time and you made reference to the fact you wouldn’t blame your husband if he was with someone else at this point. Marriage is really valuable though and after 30 years your life is built it’s your solid foundation and one issue is not the whole marriage.

            What I’ve learnt from my relationships is that It’s impossible to expect we can get everything we want from just one person. That I had completely loose myself with these men and that I need to remember to not neglect my own passions/ goals etc.

            In terms of the sex, I never had a connection with my normal either not even at first. In fact, it took me a year to sleep with him. Partly because I was young and wanted to be in love, but also largely due to the fact I was not attracted to him and felt like I had to be? So I forced it. I was more then willing to work on things and was realistic that things take time and energy in that department… but he just never saw anything wrong with it, and felt no need to communicate about it or change.

            The narc and I had a rocky start to intimacy… I thought to myself “here I go again “ but the big difference was we openly communicated and improved things so we were both happy in that department. I understand now he did that to control and manipulate. But the communication made a huge difference to how I felt about it. Plus it was new and exciting for me.

            Anyways… don’t feel bad the chemistry isn’t there. It’s been 30 years you two have built a beautiful life. Maybe taking the pressure off will make you want to work on it at a later time. When your narc fog has cleared.

          37. Empath007, thank you for your observations and for sharing your experience. What I have in my relationship is rare and it is special. Thank God I didn’t blow it up. (At least not yet.) We still do sex about once a week or so and that’s way better than a lot of marriages so I’ve heard. We’re ok. I always say with absolute conviction that he will take care of me and love me the best he can until the day one of us dies. He will be there for me and that’s more than can be said for any narc. No matter how sexy he is.

          38. MB—I’m catching up on this thread. I’m
            sorry the marriage is disappointing in this regard.

          39. Sex shops make me uncomfortable. All my whoredom has been discreet and I get embarrassed easily.

          40. Lorelei, I never would have guessed you are easily embarrassed! Anonymity does wonders for all of us.

          41. Omg yes—I would never talk this way openly. One of the docs at work asked me randomly if I liked bondage the other day after our talk on the blog and I was like, “As a matter of fact NO.” He was then embarrassed and I was unable to look at him. We have this reciprocal thing of silliness but we can’t really follow it through.

          42. He’s not a narcissist but he’s ornery and I wouldn’t touch him. I’m on sabbatical until HG fixes my brain.

          43. Are you sure he didn’t say bandage and you heard bondage? That would be my claim to HR.

          44. Haha—truthfully—he knows better than to ask me for a bandage! I make them work. He’s ornery.

          45. One of the Hoover’s (phone forced me to capitalize that) was a woman. 20 some year old chick fling. I still don’t know what a woman wants nor do I care to. I did some ridiculous stuff. 🤷🏼‍♀️ Nonsense I tell you—men are where it’s at but unfortunately I’m on sabbatical.

          46. Not really—I don’t think I know how to do the oral sex thing the right way! Ugh anyway.

          47. Lorelei
            It’s badly named. You don’t really blow. Hope that helped.

          48. No I can do that—it’s the oral sex with women I was bad at. I have since read an article on how to do it, but I’m kinda over that in life. The info would had been useful years ago. That girl totally faked an orgasm because I sucked.

          49. Lorelei, can I get a link to the article? I need to share it with my husband. Forget the sex shop. We need to start with the basics.

          50. MB,

            Oh, so there is room for improvement!…

            Now that you’ve acknowledged this, you may as well continue with next logical step – do something about it.

          51. If Lorelei can find an article, surely if hubs wanted to please me, he could find one. You can find all kinds of stuff on the internet! I’ve been having sex with this man for over 30 years. N only had phone sex with me and figured very quickly what I enjoyed. (Vanilla with sprinkles is an apt description.) I admit, I’m not one for expressing my needs/wants, but hubs is clueless. He’s improved over the years but will never be where N is. Admittedly N has had much more practice, but damn, one would think somebody with empathy would be great in bed. Nope, N’s pay way closer attention. He knew how to get every last drop of fuel I had to give and I was more than happy to give it.

          52. MB
            I’ll just offer this and then leave it alone.

            Could it be the case that your husband does not look for articles because you have been having sex with him for 30 years and you have not expressed your needs? Maybe he thinks you’re satisfied. You have been together since you were both very young so there would be inexperience on both sides yes? Also, I don’t want to raise a sore point but there is no other way around it: I believe you mentioned that he had a brief affair/ engagement with someone. Doesn’t that indicate that he has some dissatisfaction as well? No need to answer me, these are things for you to ask yourself. We are not trying to pry but rather get to the problem and find a solution so that you can be happy where you are and not fall for another narcissist because you are not.

          53. NA, I always appreciate your input 😊 I respect your opinion and it’s always more clear when you have someone on the outside looking in. So don’t ever leave it alone unless YOU want to. Yes, my husband was 29 and seduced by a 50 year old woman who I am 95% sure is a narc. He was unhappy at that time as I had a VERY stressful job, a two year old and zero time or energy for him. I don’t blame him for responding to her attention. I DON’T express my needs in bed or otherwise, so I will take the blame for my own dissatisfaction. I do want to get to the point where I can be happy where I am. (I am *mostly* content and am getting more so as I age.).

            My ET is high right now. Why can’t I just have my cake (all the wonderful things about my husband) and eat it too (my phone sex romps with N) I crave him like a thirsty person craves water even 6 months NC. I gotta stop thinking about him if I want to behave. (And I know I have to.) Tipping point isn’t far away.

          54. Seriously? I can describe it here but can’t recall the article. I’m turning red though. I don’t know if it would make it through moderation.

          55. Lorelei, I was really just kidding. Truth is, if there’s no passion, there’s no point. It’s not his fault I don’t desire him sexually. He doesn’t try anymore thank God! It’s so awkward and pathetic it ruins any little bit of mood there is. I don’t kiss him either. That’s just as awkward. How important is intimacy/sex in a marriage? Is it a dealbreaker? Obviously not. Surely he feels it too, but we don’t talk about it. He could be fucking somebody like rabbits for all I know. I wouldn’t really blame him if he was.

          56. I’m sorry to hear this. How long have you been married? Dealbreaker? That is an individual choice absolutely. Even with my ex the occasional interlude could be good because he was excellent at a few essentials. I know personally I’d like to have a sexual relationship again at some point—I’m just too much of a mess to go there because it’s not the same. Everything is shifting.

          57. Of course he was excellent Lorelei. He was a narc, yes? Hopefully you can get back up on the horse soon!

          58. He was the worst narcissist I’ve ever been with. He is a deplorable person. I have mixed feelings on the rest of them because the devaluation segment of the relationships was tempered with more normalcy. I’m near tears thinking of the hell I freely put up with. I have a lot of emotion about it. It was literally water torture daily with no respite ever. I kept hoping and was determined to just lay there and take it thinking I had to for the kids. I drank constantly to cope which made me physically sick and there was a substantial weight gain the last 1-2 years due to the drinking. I was barely functioning. Actually I wasn’t functioning. Constant degradation and verbal assaults. I’m not being histrionic by description. Those that were close to it can see it so clearly now and somewhat by the observation of the recuperation thus far—my life now is in stark contrast. This is why I’m so absolutely motivated. It was so bad it has to become “so good” because I was robbed of so much. I don’t like being emotional but I have moments it hits and it hits and takes my breath away that I lived that way. He’s so foul he offers no benefit to anyone. Many narcissists do wonderful things and it is of course generally off-set by their pernicious negativity. He genuinely is of no value to a soul. He triangulates the kids and doesn’t have any capacity for enough facade to really be helpful. He isn’t as smart as he initially comes across—he charms his way into jobs and he gambled his money away in stocks. He’s disgusting. He has a pretty face. That is as deep as it gets. If someone beat him within an inch of his last breath I would derive some sort of satisfaction unfortunately. I hope that covers it. He is a classless piece of garbage.

          59. Lorelei, I’m sorry I triggered an emotional reaction. It certainly wasn’t my intent. I think you covered it and got your point across as to how big of a blight on society your ex is! Nobody deserves to be treated that way. Good for you for putting a stop to it. You are a survivor!

            Stories like yours make me realize how grateful I am for the love and support that I experience and the life of freedom that live. I have no right to whine about my sex life when I am so blessed. I’m ashamed. It’s so petty when compared to the real issues and suffering in an abusive relationship.

          60. It’s ok, it was good for me in a way. He really offers no value to anyone. He can’t even properly lay a wood floor and guess who gets to pay to have fixed?? Haha—omg I need to shut up.

          61. Lorelei, I changed my gravatar for you for a short bit. There used to be little ornate scroll thingys for those without pics. Now there are monsters. What are the choices oh WordPress god?

          62. I love it! See—so much fun can be had with these pictures! I saw the monsters. I put my cat up for today. He hates me—only likes the kids. It’s weird. He gives me silent treatments unless he wants food.

          63. I had to share those bangs. Why do moms thing it’s a good time for a bang trim right before picture day. I have a cowlick in the front and it was always effed up. I never had a professional haircut until I could pay for my own. Fortunately, they know how to cut wonky cowlick hair.

          64. MB—I have extraordinary guilt over firing my hair girl. She doesn’t know but she will soon as her replacement is at the same salon! The other girl is better. I have a bad second grade hair pic but it’s so horrible it can’t be posted. It’s unforgivable and unforgettable.

          65. Fun story MB—a testament to dear HG. Just now my patio estimator came and did measurements. He’s the owner of a well established local company but it’s small enough so he does his own estimates and the warranty is terrific for the brick paver patio, etc. The current structure is over 400 square feet/medium size really. My intention is to replace with the same and add seat walls and fire pit. He was pompous, attractive despite an obvious penchant for overeating. (Not too bad) I asked if my dog was ok as she would inevitably jump at him as she does at least once to anyone. He said she would be fine. She jumped near him and he became stern. Proper etiquette would dictate a tolerance to a degree after my warning that I could just put her away or tolerate the leap of love. Not a big deal but arrogance and then the slight test of an eye fuck started. Ever so subtle. He initially mentioned his house as “We live..” (wife of course) I was talking cost breakdown and he suggested adding 100 square feet at no charge during the eye activity and I starting twisting my hair and reciprocated a bit discussing cost of fire pit and seat walls! These dumb narcissist mid-rangers are really easy to read now—they instinctively get caught up in acquiring fuel to the detriment of their pocket books. Dumb ass. I would not sleep with his ever so slightly bulging belly now for all the tea in China. A few years ago—probably.

          66. Lorelei, you don’t actually have to sleep with him. Just make him think it’s a possibility until the estimate is signed! And I thought we said “fuck the BMI police!” Chubby people need love too!

          67. Haha—he probably has a small penis anyway. I’ve seen these sorts before.

          68. Lorelei! What am I going to do with you?! He’s fat and now he has a small penis too! Is that a well founded opinion?

          69. I’ve been there MB. I’m aware of the profile. It makes a blow job less challenging though but the experience is worthless.

          70. Lorelei, I wouldn’t know. I’m the closest thing to a 40ish year old virgin you’ll find beside a nun. Never even seen other penises let alone had them in my mouth! I’ll take your word for it!

          71. Then how did you end up on the blog?! It seems to be a specialty of mine.

          72. Lorelei, the universe has looked out for my naive ass! Only one narc and he moved away before I had a chance to get it in my mouth or anywhere else. Wasn’t for the lack of trying though! Ha ha. The sex has all been phone & text. (The safest kind.) He never even sent pics! I’ve only ever known one and & I suppose it will stay that way unless he dies while I’m still young enough to care about sex.

          73. I’d like to have the number of narcissists I’ve dallied with expunged from my record. It’s awful. I’m going to bed now before I’m mean to anyone at work or before I tell HG another F bomb. I am really not like that but someone did ask me last week if I needed a snickers bar.

          74. Sleep never came MB. I was awaken by an 11 year old crying that she needed me to buy face masks. I guess I’ve rubbed off on the girls.

          75. I’m sorry you didn’t get your rest Lorelei, but more sorry for your coworkers tonight!

          76. Haha for some reason I just imagined one of those little sculptures of the fat Buddha people put in their patios …

          77. MB, that fat figure is not Gautama Buddha but a Chinese historical monk, Budai, who is usually mistaken for Buddha. Most statues of Siddharta Buddha depict him as thin. I only know this because I took several classes on South Asian religions, out of intellectual curiosity. What I don’t know yet is why in America that chubby guy is always placed in people’s backyards.

          78. Hahaha. But the thin Buddha is the one that chose the middle path!

          79. Always the one with the logical answer,
            HG. A skinny statue wouldn’t be much use as a door stop.

          80. “How important is intimacy/sex in a marriage?”

            I’m not sure, MB.
            What I know is that when I got to this sexual apathy state it did not end well.
            So now I pay attention, and even if tired or not quite in the mood, I strive for adequate frequency and quality.
            And you know what? Sometimes you can also get hungry while eating…

          81. Abe, I totally agree with you. If one lets apathy sit in then the sex is over because there’s always something in the middle. I don’t feel like it sometimes at first but once you’re into it it’s fun.

          82. Lorelei
            Ah. I admire your courage in admitting that the girl would have been better off slapping herself with a slice of ham. People only need to put themselves in the other’s place (we should be good at that as empaths) and think what would they enjoy, and then follow both the verbal and non-verbal reactions. I think in this case your heart told your mouth you were not into it. I don’t want you to brand yourself a failure and in case the opportunity presents again.

          83. Oh gosh—ugh. It is a bit of effort—I’ll probably pass. Nothing hotter than a really muscular tall man with a few unshaven days.

          84. NA—I’m headed to church for children’s youth group. (cringe worthy yes—long story) but the addictions (sexual) recovery group is meeting tonight per the brochure. Maybe I can get laid after all? A demure yet questionably provocative deportment just outside the doors of this group? 🤷🏼‍♀️

          85. Best I could tell NA, she was referring to her brief encounter with same sex experimentation. I could be wrong though. She’s had so many escapades! Wild woman, I’m telling you.

          86. This narcissism business must be entertaining for HG—I can hear him tell his partners now, “These women are bananas!”

          87. “Nope, I don’t talk about what I do here to anybody else.” That makes me feel special somehow, HG. 😍 We all should.

          88. She likes the charmers too? Haha. I don’t know her history except for the childhood stories. It’s a celebratory day. I’ve updated my gravatar to reflect the end of an over decade long mind screw. He was poised and charming in court and even held the door on the way out for me and my attorney/friend.
            My only regret is that I didn’t have hemorrhoid cream for my puffy under my eyes look today. Haha

          89. Congratulations Lorelei!

            On your acquiring this new piece of freedom.

          90. Thanks Abe. I just took a long walk and it was really nice—felt less burdened.

          91. MB,
            That is so true that narcissists are everywhere. It’s interesting to think how little impact some had on us where others had significant impact.
            We will keep it a secret from the BMI police. It only comes around once a year, so it is a must to celebrate, right? I ust had a banana split. It had fruit so it can’t be bad.

          92. Jesus! So eager to enter this convo and there was no “reply” button anywhere! MB, your narc’s expertise is in your mind. I thought mine was fantastic by just sexting with him, it actually happened to be my imagination which was doing all the job because when we met in person, he finished before he even took his underwear off. My husband on the other hand is actually pretty good, my neighbors must be scandalized because I am not very silent. If you wonder why I had an affair then I will tell you that my mind (ET) fooled me into thinking the grass was greener with this guy who I also thought was perfect for me because of his blatant mirroring. So it’s just a question of getting in the game, your imagination is very powerful! I understand 30 years is a long time but you said I’ve been having sex with him for 30 years… at least there’s sex! Have you talked to him about changing the routine? Do you have fantasies you’d like to try? I find my husband very attractive but things get boring if we always do the same.

          93. SP, you are absolutely correct. The mind/brain is the most important sex organ and I use it to take me to another place when we are being intimate. AW may have been awful IRL but I’ll never know and that’s probably a good thing considering your experience. The important distinction between me and you is that you find your husband attractive. My husband isn’t unattractive, he is just way too familiar to me. I’ve said previously, kissing him is like kissing a family member. Sex and touching isn’t something I’ve ever enjoyed with him. It feels unnatural and kind of icky. Maybe he’s my half brother or something and I don’t know!

          94. MB, that sounds extremely off putting but not weird given the amount of time you have been together and how young you two were when you got married. I think everyone uses imagination to escape a little when having sex anyway, I used to think of narc’s abs although I don’t let him interfere with my sex life anymore because that would be breaking NC and because I find him repulsive now. Kissing is essential. I told my husband once that if he didn’t kiss me more I would find someone else to kiss. If you like something you need to express it. But I don’t find kissing him soo familiar …

          95. SP, I miss kisses the most. Life is too short not to be kissing. It’s much more intimate than sex though. I can’t detach. Anyway, next time he lays one on you, double enjoy it for me.

          96. MB, narcissists have all sorts of skills. Some have the gift of gab instead of gift of doing. What he was able to accomplish on the phone may not have been what he could have accomplished if you actually drove to him to experience it. As much as a narcissist is a mirror in other ways, could he have been a mirror during that time? Did he really know what you enjoyed or did you know what you enjoyed?
            You don’t have to answer those questions. I hope I didn’t insult or hurt you. I read your comments and thought that he may have known to let you live in the fantasy over the phone than experiencing as it might have been an experience you would have wanted to forget.

          97. GT, if he had enough forethought to give me that perfect fantasy and not ruin it with reality, I’m obliged. I kissed him once, no tongue because I all but passed out and couldn’t kiss him back. The supercharged feeling of our lips touching and the way he held me was enough to make me believe he can back up what he says. He picked up on my cues and the feedback he was receiving from me over the phone and would remember it. He did this until he became MY perfect lover. I can’t understand why my “normal” husband doesn’t have that ability. I do the same for him, but he’s clueless. I’m not going to spell it out.

          98. MB,
            I hope this was the closest “reply” button to your comment. I have to admit I was duel tasking while looking.
            I’m going to be a bit direct and am not trying to insult you. If I do, please tell me.

            You and the narcissist: I have no doubt that you had a lot of emotion and anxiety tied into the kiss as it was happening. He was your first kiss with a man you met as an adult; and you felt he understood you so it wasn’t just a physical connection. I think if the kiss had been beyond two lips touching, it is possible that the kiss may not have been as expected. It is quite possible, but not guaranteed, that the power of the kiss was that it was a simple kiss with a lot of connection for you. His skills may be lacking beyond. Hopefully you never find out and it becomes a memory to help fuel you in understanding your needs and wants.

            You and your husband: you have known him since you were a girl. People change since their early teen times and people forget that who you are, or who someone else was, at that age is not always the same when older. I recently had to tell a family member to stop holding me to the image they had of me when I was a teen. It isn’t fair but it is natural to hold to that image we think we know of another. I understand the want to have your husband be so interested in you that he can read you and change to match what he is reading. Unfortunately that is not the case and he, like many, may need to have that direct discussion of “this is what gets my engines revving.” Did you watch “When Harry Met Sally?” Some lovers would see that rendition of the fake orgasm during sex and trust their partner that it is real. They are trusting the other to understand what the other wants. Some narcissists, though, are good at body reading. They can hear the fake orgasm but see the slight movement that shows it isn’t real. They don’t trust so it is easy to see why they will be more attuned to things other than words.

            I think you would make an excellent romance writer. Maybe you can have your husband read the draft of your first book.

            HG, side note, were the monsters chosen at random for each of us?

          99. There is a minion currently sweating in a steel box selecting the monsters. If he manages to keep monstering people for another three hours he can have an Orangina.

          100. GT, I’m not insulted at all! I AM a bit of a girl in a woman’s body at times. I have a lot of experience in business but not much life experience as far as “street smarts”. And zero experience with men. What you say may be true about the kiss, but without ever knowing, it will always be perfect in my mind. I’m not sure if that’s a blessing or a curse. I would jump at the chance for a do-over on that damn kiss. Getting literally weak in the knees ended up being embarrassing AF. (And wounded him by not kissing him back.) I swear I didn’t mean to. I wasn’t rebuffing, I was struggling to stay conscious.

          101. Well, HG, that explains the change of mine to a grumpy pizza slice. I can’t decide if your minion knows me like no one else, or if he can use at least a sip before the three hours are up.

          102. That poor minion. There is no winning for him and the only light at the end is not the most tasty of drinks.

            Then again, whipping may be his thing and you are just motivating him through the next 3 hours.

        2. NA, I almost spit out my drink reading your comment. LOL
          The only time I have moved other’s carts is when they left it in the middle of the aisle and went somewhere else. I have wanted to make a comment like “I didn’t realize we are back using the Homestead Act” but the person isn’t there, and I am the type that keeps it in my head mostly.
          I can see the logic in what you are saying about you not being confrontational by doing it the way you described.

          PE, it is dangerous on the roads. I am not sure if it is more dangerous than elsewhere but we do have people overdosing while driving; people taking their aggressions out on a stranger who cut them off; and other things. I have a friend whose brother was murdered due to road rage on the other person’s part. I realized after that that I needed to be more careful in what another driver sees with my frustration. For example if I am trying to merge on the highway during traffic and a driver is not wanting to let me in. I tap into my East Coast skills and show how little space between cars needs to occur for me to get in. But I will go Southern and wave “thank you.”

          1. Dear Getting There,
            Yes, it’s getting worse
            Mr Bubbles n I were on the freeway the other day and this arrogant little dipstick in his sporty royal blue car came right up my clacker and tailgated me “as I was overtaking” AND he had the audacity to flash his highbeam at me 4 times to move over
            Frustrated road rage on his part….he sped off after I moved over (I thought it was Mr Tudor for a moment) 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          2. Hello, Bubbles.
            What a jerky driver! Makes you wonder if the number of times he flashed those lights is the age with which he identifies.
            The anger management drivers seem to be increasing and is a whole other issue. I don’t remember seeing if HG has shared what kind of driver he is. My two narcissists were more law abiding drivers (usually only drive 5 above the speed limit). Neither enjoyed my driving; although one appeared to compete when we were both going to the same location in different cars.

            I’m glad you and Mr. Bubbles are safe!

          3. MB,
            LOL Scary that they trusted me with their precious lives.

            With my ex husband, I had trouble letting go of the control of driving. It used to be a point of discussion for us until it wasn’t. Looking back I think he received a lot of fuel from me during the drives.
            With my recent ex, he only let me drive a couple of times only because I was using his lack of willingness to let me drive as an example of my perceptions of his views of me. I think he did it to show I was “wrong” and then get the chance to comment on my driving.

          4. MB, before I give the impression that I always have to be the driver, I enjoy others driving as much. I actually enjoy others driving more when in another town or city.
            With those two, though, there was something, for me, about driving. I can’t explain it.

          5. Getting There, that impression is fine! I drive 99% of the time, myself. I enjoy driving, he doesn’t. I know where I’m going, he doesn’t. I get car sick, he doesn’t. It’s a win win. (But he’s not a control freak narc either.)

          6. Dear Getting There,
            Thank you precious
            Quite right ….. mentally 4 years 🤣
            Ah … “compete” ….that’s the magic word for narcs, gotta be bigga betta fasta
            Also, I don’t hesitate to move someone’s trolley in the aisle …..”excuse me pleeeeeeeease , thank youuuuuuuu” …. it works …. Haha
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          7. MB, that is a win/win and makes sense why you drive most of the time.

            Bubbles, I was intrigued by him competing in driving. Here is a person who not only drives 5 above the speed limit but comments about driving safety. Yet he needs to win so much in a non-established race that he went against his own speed limit limitations. Is winning really that important?

            I bet all of you are very nice when you move the carts/trolleys. I remember NA’s comment that it can be done in a way that is non confrontational. I am keeping that in the back of my head for the next time. I can’t promise I would be able to take the action but I will consider it.

          8. Dear Getting There,
            You can do it
            Remember …. it’s all about…..
            ” smiling ” 😃 when you say it
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

            Hey …… I’m an pick hexagon with tongue out
            And your an Italian blue pizza with a moustache

            Mr Tudor doesn’t like emojis …. get outta here 🤣

          9. Dear Getting There,
            Oops … *pink
            My auto correct hates me … haha

    2. Getting There,
      You little name-dropper! I swear to God (and Mother Mary), I felt like someone was talking about me, and I went right to this page, for no other reason than looking for my name…I have a bit of an ESP thing, at times. WISH I was kidding, but I guess not really. It’s helpful.

      Anyway, MB…I have not forgotten our “pump up the jam” chat… but I always wait on feeling the timing is right.

      See, HG? I sense vibes & crap! I told ya so. It’s so weird!

      ~Caroline-Is-Freaky
      P.S. I also felt like there was a horrible, awful tension, and went right to a thread where people made me so upset I left. I can’t decide if I should intervene, so I wait. Flight or Flight — I battle these. Yes, I AM this weird! No, I wouldn’t change it… more weird.

      1. That is an amazing gift you have, Caroline-and-sensing-winning-lottery-numbers!

        You show such compassion for others and give great advice, so I might use your name again in the future.

        1. Thank you, “Getting There” (very kind)…and I wish my sensing thing worked on the lotto! But it’s about quirky stuff, and it just pops up at times. A few months back, I was sitting in a girlfriend’s family room, and we were gabbing away… her 3-year-old was happily playing in his room. I felt really distracted — she noticed and asked, “What’s wrong?” I told her I didn’t know, and then I just got up and started walking to her son’s room… got there/stepped over all his little toys on the floor… went to his closet door & opened it… moved a big plastic bin of toys in there (she followed me, because clearly I’m acting bizarre)… and then I turned to her and asked, “Can you get me a roll of Bounty – real quick?”

          In the corner of closet, behind the big, red bin was the largest, grossest spider.

          When I pointed to it, she said, “Oh my God — are you psychic?” (I said, “No, not exactly…I just get a feeling about things, once in awhile. Thankfully, that didn’t totally flip her out!).

          What’s with all the cartoon faces today??

          1. That is amazing, Caroline! Thank goodness you were there and that you trust this gift!

            Apparently one of HG’s minions has a new tasking. I don’t know if it is punishment or hazing into the club.

            I like yours! I want to analyze mine. Thankfully I am distracted with other things. LOL

          2. I’m one of those sick and twisted individuals that actually ENJOY change and new things. HG has really delivered. With IG activity, new articles, new book covers, new graphics, new merchandise, new avatars, new polls, new homework assignments! It’s an exciting time to “Know the Narcissist”! I’m ready for some new YT recordings next!

          3. Interesting… ok, since we can’t control the cartoon-age, we’ll make the best of it.

            As for your cartoon face, GT… to me, it seems rather pondering/intelligent — and a bit skeptical. Since there’s often a handful of pretenders/fakers/”inauthentics” running around the site, you will always look appropriately suspicious. 😉

          4. You’re right, MB! There are a lot of changes lately with Knowing the Narcissist! I wonder what is inspiring the changes. Does HG have a new minion who has other creative skills? I don’t follow HG on Instagram so I am missing all there.
            I’m glad I didn’t insult you earlier with my directness. I’m glad you’re back here!

            Caroline, I like your analysis of my monster! I’m not sure I am suspicious enough on this blog, so maybe the minion was trying to inspire me to be more suspicious. LOL

  3. Another suggestion for a true life example is the book “A Dance with the Devil: A True Story of Marriage to a Psychopath”. (outstanding quick read) It is chilling to see so many similarities in behavior to our Narcissists and how our ET makes excuses to dismiss the things we witness. A bit like watching a horror film and asking why the victim continues to walk into their house when they see the power is out, the door is ajar, and there is blood on the floor. As Empaths, we don’t heed the warnings because we want to believe the best.

  4. Klo: No worries. HG Tudor has plenty of writings on how that Narcissist did his reconnaissance work on you, before he met you. So, you no longer need to ask that person. And that person is not going to tell you his techniques. Perhaps someone on this site can recommend some articles for you on this topic, but I can not remember the name of this topic, and I am sort of new-ish on here. But I have read and listened on audio to some of these articles by HG Tudor on how the recon work is carried out and they are very eye opening and interesting. After being on Narcsite, almost every question I have wondered about has been answered that I could not nor would not nor receive answers from the Narcissists. And guess what, Klo, some questions that I did not know to ask were answered as well! And still are being answered, even as of today, For example: HG Tudor explained the foundation of this feeling of dullness that many of us experience, and he explained that it is a trap sprung by our Emotional Thinking to lure us in to reach out for the Narcissist again, after which the trap will then go, SNAP!! SNAP!! SNAP!! as we haplessly go back deep into the nightmare and quagmire and destruction once again. Not a good step. Disastrous. Not good at all.

  5. MB
    What you said is very true, I wasn’t sure if I could watch it but was to curious not to. There were so many triggers in it for me that I couldn’t sleep at all afterwards, I’m just glad that I have this place to come to when something like this happens. Being a child that was caught in a narcissists web like those boys were I understood what they went through and felt, it brought all of those memories back to the forefront of my mind causing me to relive them all over again. Being a Mother and acting like those Mother’s did is something I’ll never be able to understand, allowing that to happen to your child is incomprehensible to me and I hated them for the hurt and pain that they allowed to happen. I am so glad someone else on here watched it, I think everyone should. Those boys were not lying!

    1. FM1T, I’m not judging those mothers. Having been sucked into the illusion myself, I am able to see how they “lost their minds”. I see how they let it happen at the time. I dare say I would’ve been vulnerable in their same position. (As much as I hate to admit it.). What bothered me was the lack of remorse shown now. I would’ve been crying my eyes out at the loss of my child’s innocence and the loss of his childhood and the profound effect this had on his entire life.

      I agree, all Tudorites can benefit educationally from the documentary. It also proves the point in HGs article to the HoU. The narcissistic dynamic can play out on any stage, in any walk of life, with any players. Nobody is immune. Not even innocent children. 😢

      1. MB,
        I know you are not judging those Mother’s, I was. It is something that goes against everything I stand for, but knowing the lifetime of pain and hurt those children suffer first hand, I cannot change the way I feel. I feel a hate and bitterness to the ones that knew and did nothing to stop it, especially those that benefited from it! At this time I am usually feeling guilty about having feelings such as this, but not this time, this time it brings forth such an anger inside of me that I believe even HG would think twice about going up against such fury! HG this triggered something that I believe I need to address?

        1. FM1T, it’s perfectly fine to get angry. I was just saying earlier today to my sister that it’s a good thing he is dead. I’ve heard he was abused although I don’t know the extent. Still, it’s no excuse. At least now he can’t hurt anybody else. The entanglements have ended with his death.

          1. I can’t see the thread above to know what documentary this is in reference to MB?

          2. ‘Leaving Neverland’ it’s a two part series (4 hrs total) about Michael Jackson’s sexual abuse victims

          3. I don’t watch anything these days but I’m adding it to my list. Also, Chernobyl, Big Little Lies (prob after HG’s evaluation) and for the simple reason that I’ve always thought highly of the cast members.. (especially Nicole Kidman) Sexual abusers aren’t that “interesting” per se—it’s really just a perverted means of gaining fuel. It’s the story of those he impacted that interests me. Having been among the unfortunate in this regard I sometimes gain insights by hearing stories from others.

          4. The BLL season finale is tonight. (Here) No spoilers y’all! Don’t forget. HGs analyses should start soon!

          5. I will just watch it on a binge when I have a free few days. I have two days the first week of August in case it is too hot to be productive!

        2. FM1T, I watched Part 2 of the documentary tonight as well as the sit down interview with Oprah, the two men, and the producer of the film. Much more was discussed about the mothers in these. Wade’s mother refuses to watch the parts detailing the abuse. She is still in denial. Neither of the men have forgiven their mothers.

          1. MB,
            I didn’t watch so I’m glad you did. I started reading a book because it is just to hot to go out and do anything, and just as I always do when I start reading a book like this I get caught up in it and forget about everything else including time. 🤦🏼‍♀️

          2. MB,
            I thought it would be just a light book to read for summer, but I should have known when I start a book I can not put it down. Lol. It’s called Firefly Lane by Kristin Hannah.

            So here is the funny part, I believe the author might know HG. Haha!
            Before I put it down last night I had just read a chapter where one of the main characters meets a man with blonde hair and blue eyes, he has an English accent and lives in London. They have a relationship that lasts for years however it is strictly whenever he is in town for business and only on his terms. I couldn’t believe it when I read it! All I could do was shake my head and laugh. Lol. 🙃

          3. FM1T, I’m sure it’s fictional, but you can imagine she’s HGs IPSS if you want to! That’s the cool thing about books.

          4. MB
            Yes dear it is fictional. I honestly don’t think I want to think of her as HGs IPSS, I honestly just wanted to read a light summer book without anything that had to do with narcissists. What were the odds I picked one that had a character in it that matched our fearless leader? 🦚 🙃

  6. As if yesterday wasn’t painful enough in my Narc education, I watched Part 1 of ‘Leaving Neverland’ on HBO. I couldn’t fall asleep last night with the thoughts and anger racing through my mind. (Those that know me know that’s a BIG deal!) I hurt so badly for those boys.

    Everything HG tells us is there. When you seduce little boys for intimate partners, of course you watch cartoons, play video games, have pillow fights, and read stories. You mirror them. MJ had an *actual* utopia built just for the purposes of seduction and binding. They didn’t stand a chance and neither did their mothers who also had to be seduced in a different way and brought onside. I recommend the documentary for Tudorites. (Unless they can’t stomach the graphic descriptions of sexual acts between MJ and his victims.) Everything HG says is true and acted out before your eyes in textbook accuracy. The entire cycle of the narcissist entanglement right there in living color through video and interviews. The profound pain those boys felt at the realization that they had been replaced, that they were no longer his favorite, was worse than the sexual abuse could ever have been. Many of you know that searing pain. Imagine if you were 7 years old and felt rejection like that? MJ was a monster for doing that to them.

    One boy (Jimmy) was IPPS and the other IPSS (Wade). He was headed for IPPS, but his mother (gathered her senses) long enough to disallow him staying with MJ and took him back to Australia. I found the love bombing he did after that through fax interesting. It was carried out just as texting and emailing is today.

    What struck me the most odd is that the mothers seemed to have no remorse. In fact, there were times that each of them laughed when describing some of the events that happened. I know they were under MJs spell too at the time, but surely they have regrets in hindsight? If I had allowed that kind of abuse to my own child, under my very own nose, ENCOURAGED it in fact, I’m not sure I could survive the pain of my guilt. I am a mother! The one that is to protect my child at all costs. Not feed him to the lion as a sacrifice to afford MYSELF the trappings of an affiliation with the rich and famous! It troubles me beyond words that these women exhibited no remorse for failing their children in such a horrible way.

    When you see the evidence. When you see the victims and hear them tell their experiences. You know it’s true. You feel it resonate. They didn’t make these stories up. You realize that the two boys (now men) that deny it are lying. They suffered too. They just don’t want to open the can of worms. That’s ok, though. They don’t have to. After seeing Jimmy and Wade, we know what they went through.

      1. NA, even with all my education at HGTU, the thought that those mothers were narcissistic never even occurred to me. WTF! I was blinded by my own mama goggles. That’s why I need you NA. Back to class. How did I miss that?

      2. NA
        Thank you, for always seeing and understanding things that we miss. The hatred I feel for those Mother’s was nothing like I have ever felt before, that trigger of abuse those children suffered stayed with me all night long. The thought of them being narcissists also never crossed my mind.

  7. “You will stare deep into my eyes, trying to find this world again amidst the ink-black darkness. There is no light that can shine any longer which may just happen to illuminate where this world has gone to. The darkness is absolute because it is the darkness that is the reality.” I have officially decided it is impossible to flirt with you on this blog. Like, I seriously think if we met up in real life somehow, you would so have to pretend to be nice, find me obnoxious in a way (which is somewhat fascinating) and I would know kinda and even if I was wrong would feel that way to the point it would happen and ahhhhhhhh!!!

      1. Thinkers – I feel. You ask why to a question related to a feeling I don’t understand yet, but I get the seriousness of your inquiry – I suppose I know you couldn’t hurt me and trust that, but that doesn’t mean we ride the feeling vibe in unison or that you would find the interaction worthy of your time

      2. We women flirt with psychopathic narcissists because we find them fascinating, intelligent and amusing.

      3. Abe I can’t find a spot to put my comment so I’ll pop it here

        Ok you say you were shelved by the woman you had an affair with
        How can you be shelved when you were married to another woman
        I know I sound accusatory sorry but you didn’t leave your wife for her so wasn’t technically yours , isn’t that the terms of an affair.

        I was utterly faithful and at the beck and call to my married narc what a stupid move in hindsight
        Is that what you wanted
        Again just curious I don’t know your full story and sorry if I sound prickly

        Kiki❤️

        1. Kiki & all,

          For replying to a specific comment, in the absence of the REPLY link there are 2 options:

          1. In email notifications, you have a Reply button for each comment. You can use that one.

          2. If you don’t have email notifications activated:
          First, you need to find the number of the comment you want to reply to.
          To do this, click on the text which says something like “July 26, 2019 at 12:29” next to the comment, and you’ll find it in the browser’s address: https://narcsite.com/2019/07/19/your-world-in-my-eyes-11/comment-page-1/#comment-283506
          This 283506 is the comment’s number.
          To reply exactly to that comment, replace the final part of the link (#comment-283506) with ?replytocom=283506#respond, you’ll get something like https://narcsite.com/2019/07/19/your-world-in-my-eyes-11/comment-page-1/?replytocom=283506#respond

        2. Kiki,

          I’m not sure I understand the question.
          I was an IPSS (she is married too), and she decided at some point that we can longer see each other and be intimate. Just chat.

          In the dynamic of an IPSS, this is called shelving (at least that’s what I understand). Either that, or I just became a NIPSS.
          It’s not related to me being married or not.

          Were you trying to ask something else maybe?

          1. Hi Abe thank you for your reply
            Don’t get me wrong but maybe she just wanted to end the affair
            Obviously I’m not HG so I can’t really determine what this is
            You see aren’t the terms of the affair you had balanced I presume neither one of you wanted to leave your spouses therefore it’s non exclusive from the start .
            I’m just curious how ending an affair makes her a narc
            Again I don’t know the backstory here so if I’m wrong apologies.
            I’m a bit prickly with affairs as you can see due to my own thing ,

            Kiki

          2. Abe she was also an iPps to you .

            Maybe my thinking is off but my point is you were BOTH married therefore the dynamic was equal
            How was she a narc ?

          3. I have replied on your other question-comment about why I think she is a narc.

            She was not an IPPS to me, she could have been an IPSS. And that is only if I were a narc (which I think I am not).

          4. Abe Moline,
            In my humble opinion, there’s no way you are a narcissist — unless you’re play-acting, which I do not think you are doing.

            Your personality/communications reminds me a great deal of my high school boyfriend (who I’m still in touch with). I’m torn on if he’s a normal or an empath. His empathic qualities are rockin’ fantastic, but there’s no doubt he has a few very strong narcissistic qualities.

            If you ever consult with HG, I’d be really interested to hear the verdict.

          5. KIKI: Of course people can love more than one person, and you know that. They love them differently an compartmentalize them differently . Men do so more than women, and society also teaches them to do so, and also men have in general more testosterone and other chemical differences that aid them in compartmentalizing better, and to not go down the drain as easily as women do if emotional attachments start failing or just become difficult or crash. Men and Women are Different in many ways, in general. Men are not Women by definition. Narcissist men men are even better at compartmentalizing. They especially don’t need to go down the drain over attachments, because they went down that road enough, too much even, when they were young and could not fight back. They shut that emotionally wellspring essentially down because it was already over manipulated in their personal society during their upbringing. They are talking any emotional abuse from anyone. However, most of us are here to not actually figure out if someone loved us, but rather because we were being destroyed by the way the attachment negatively impacted us. And Narcissistic men want their women to behave eactaly as they are designated in the compartment in which he puts them, even more so than other men. For example, they do not want the secondary women to start demanding to be treated according to how the primary wife is treated and visa versa in what I understand as I am reading the book: Sex and The Narcissist, by HG Tudor. So, if you start wanting more, and to be called more, and to know where he is and to have needs of your own, and for him to keep appointments and dates with you, and to be made to feel more secure, he already goes through with all that with the primary wife. If the wife all of a sudden wants more adventure and excitement and spontaneity and drama, he already goes through that with the secondary women. Accept your place, and yet that is still not enough to safeguard you, because the Narcissism is determining at any given moment who has or who does not have the necessary amount of fuel from all the women involved in his dynamic, and it all can change on a dime, on any given day, and it does change. And there is nothing you can do about it, because he will not turn into a normal man no matter what you do, or we would not be on here. You can not sit down with his Narcissism over tea and crumpets and have a little chat about what you need from the Narcissist. And also, I read HG telling another reader the other day, that love should not be bringing a person down every day because of the way the said person is negatively being treated and disrespected. This is why we are here. Is it also a question of love? Sure. But is it not more a question of what is all this disrespect and what can we do about it, according to each of our own personal dynamic? Of course it is.

          6. PSE, I LOVE this post. It really gets to the crux of the problem for us empaths. We are obsessed with love. Wondering if our narc loved us is a totally misguided question – because he’s a narc! It is so hard for us to get that through our thick heads! “You can not sit down with his Narcissism over tea and crumpets and have a little chat about what you need from the Narcissist” – oh my, let me count the ways in which I tried.

            Kiki, The very fact that Abe can talk about love so freely and with so much self-awareness is proof right there that he is not a narc.

          7. Kiki: Regarding Abe as a prototype or composite example: It is amazing how people function. Some married men do become upset that a married woman, that is married to another man, that they are having sex with, behind the back of her husband, is not giving him, the secondary source, the love and sex he wants any longer, but he feels that she can give him such as he imagined would continue, while she is cheating on her husband with him. And then the same secondary man becomes more upset when she is a married Narcissist who cuts him loose, because his fuel is becoming stale, anyway. Ouch. And he now knows he cannot control her because she is a married Narcissist, and she demands the control, and wants him to back off. And such men have no regarding empathy for cuckolding the married woman’s husband, as well, and will also smear her, after she discards/disengages from them. And spread her secrets around. Dirty Empaths can also be MALE, even though we mostly speak of women as being dirty empaths on here. And the dirty Empath Males have no empathy for the husband, and has no problem cuckolding him, as a secondary source, or DLS of the married woman, the wife. And the secondary male bewails that the married female narcissist calls the shots to disengage and he has no power to do anything about it to make her continue her cheating against her husband with him. Narcville.

          8. I don’t think this analysis, at least in what concerns me, is accurate.

            We must not forget that, although I found out about her being a narc only later, she was a narcissist all along. Many of my feelings after being dumped are related to that, not to being dumped. I was not upset in the way “this bitch dumped me before I dumped her”. I was upset because the dumping was performed in the characteristic narc-fashion, which always leaves the other dangling and searching for ways to get back, to understand, while aching and anxious, while she was still playing subtle catch and release games with me via texting. I am sure that ending a relationship with a non-narc person, in the same situation, would have involved much less “upset”.
            The thought of revenge never crossed my mind until I discovered she is a narcissist.

            After becoming aware of what she is, everything started fitting together. At least it made sense, although I was still in a lot of pain. The anger, the frustration, the desire for revenge – yes, I had them at that point. But I understood early that they are useless and silly, so I rejected them and did not act on them.

            Not feeling empathy for her husband. Of course I did not initially, because she smeared him to me. In her description, he was an abuser, a hysterical person, and not good in bed either. When I found out she is a N, I of course changed my opinion on him. But I did not allow myself to have any empathy for him, because: he is an adult, he has to take care of himself, it’s not my problem. Secondly, there’s absolutely nothing I can do about it, so my empathy for him serves no purpose.

            I did not smear her. I discussed about the situation with only two persons – my wife and a very close male friend. I brought up the notion of narcissism, but I don’t think this qualifies as smearing.

            PSE,
            1. These look like somewhat general conclusions, applicable to many dirty empath men, not only me. Do you know more dirty empaths in a similar situation? How did you get to these conclusions?

            2. Do you have a similar analysis for DE women? Can you share your thoughts, so we can compare and see the similarities and differences?

          9. Abe, I may be wrong but I believe I am the only dirty Empath here in the same situation you have, all the other dirty Empaths are either single and were ensnared by a married narc or vice versa. My narc is married and so am I.

          10. And regarding the analyses, I don’t agree with any of them. The only person here that can understand my position is HG and his is the only analysis I’m interested in. Whatever other people may think about a married person cheating with a married narc, to be honest, is meaningless to me. I understand your point of view as I loved both persons, in different ways. Or at least, I loved the person I thought narc was. I was not devalued yet, I was extremely lucky to be able to escape when he was “testing” me at the beginning. His last message to me was actually “I feel a connection and I do want to maintain a relationship with you.” But I found out what he was thanks to HG and I made my decision. I have not smeared him among friends or colleagues because I am not the narc in this story. He has smeared me.The pain… I agree with you. I have dated many people and have gone though numerous breakups, some of them very painful. THIS pain is on a very different level.

          11. Thank you, SP.

            You actually opened my eyes a bit – in all books and articles I read from HG, despite the fact that he is a narcissist, I have never felt like he is trying to make me (us) feel guilty, ashamed, ridiculed and such. On the contrary, he’s always careful to make sure we’re not doing it to ourselves.

            My level of respect for HG just increased.

          12. Exactly Abe, you saw my point. No hidden catch, no strings attached.

          13. I actually found an interesting comment (an article related to Gaslighting, on another site), somewhat related to this:

            “No one should use shame or fear to try to get you to change. When they do this they are not asking for change, they are asking for control.”

          14. Of course it’s treason 🙂

            Well, what did you expect? Isn’t it always the same?
            I guess everybody disappoints you at some point, HG… Sorry for that (not for me disappointing you, but for you being let down by everybody).

          15. Another important observation, Abe. You nailed it. We both see the same pattern.

          16. Abe: I hope you do not smear the possible paternity of that child involved. We all care about the children, yes? And although you have no empathy for her husband as you posted, you better hope her husband does have empathy for you if he finds out you have been `ploughing in his field.` Remember, some men do not take kindly at all to `trespassing` as a matter of principle, and many take care of the persistent `trespasser` in many ways. And some unusual ways, in offline life.

          17. PSE,

            Thank you for your warning. I will take it into account.

            Now, do you also have some answers to my questions?

          18. ABE: I have no questions to ask you. Nothing confuses me about you or your posts. Anyway, Here are the 2 questions that you are asking me:
            [ 1. These look like somewhat general conclusions, applicable to many dirty empath men, not only me. Do you know more dirty empaths in a similar situation? How did you get to these conclusions?

            2. Do you have a similar analysis for DE women? Can you share your thoughts, so we can compare and see the similarities and differences?] Abe: on your first question: You are the only Dirty Empath Male, that I have been aware of on this site, and in my entire life. Your posts are quite informative as well and you clarified how you felt about the husband and about his wife and what you are surmising about the paternity of the child. And like you say yourself, `my conclusions look like general conclusions applicable to many dirty empath men, not only you.` On your second question: I have no additional analysis of DE women, beyond the articles on this site. Regarding differences that I am aware of gender wise, from my observations throughout my life: DIrty Empath Males are killed MORE by either a pummeling or gunshot, and are beaten to a pulp more and still live, or have a hit placed on them more, when they are caught by the cuckolded male. If any male of my friendship or loved one or acquaintance were involved in such a situation of cuckolding a husband via that man`s wife, I would do my best to drag him out of that very very very dangerous situation, even if he still wanted to remain in the sphere of the married woman and also wanted to discuss with the married woman about why and how he was pushed and treated overall by the married woman especially when his fuel became stale to her, if she is a married narcissist, or if the married woman just wanted him to back out, because she wanted him to back out, even if she were not a narcissist, Like the movie title: GET OUT. Before something very very bad goes down, even if he wanted back `in` and to talk. Also, I would not want him to then smear her, because she told him her secrets, such as the possible paternity of that child. And to see another family destroyed in revenge by the angry Dirty Little Secret male/Secondary male.

      1. Abe I’m not saying you are a narc but I don’t get what you are saying

        You and this lady embarked on an affair you didn’t leave your wife for her and it was fun on the side
        She ended it , she owes you no promises as you are married

        I don’t see where a narc comes into this dynamic at all

        Unless you were planning to leave your wife for her or she told you lies

        I can’t find the answer you say you gave

        I suppose I’m just hyper sensitive to men who have affairs as really it’s the wife who is the victim in this because and I was a dirty secret and I realise this .

        Kiki

        1. Hi Kiki, I can see why you might think that but there are many married women on here who have had a affairs with men who turned out to be narcs. I don’t see why it is any different with Abe. From his description, she does sound like a narc.

        2. Kiki
          I’m a bit confused about your confusion. It’s the behaviour of the person and not the position in the relationship that determines if you’re dealing with narcissism. Unless I’m misunderstanding you, that both were married has no bearing.

  8. They give it all to us; it fills all of our senses which are already heightened exquisitely. We are bathed in the ecstasy of our every dream, hope, and goal finally coming into concrete existence. Our happiness is so profound that we float. Then, without a moment’s notice, they take it all away… as if they have the right to do so, like some sort of cruel “higher power”.

  9. On point. Like an drug, the victim is hooked.on the euphoria of that excitement that occured during the love bombing stage..

    Now when ended, the victim wants that high again. They crave the mirror of their wants and desires back. They long to feel what has been lost when the narcissiat devalues them..

    And as the victim scrambles for that attention again, they become viewed as pathetic in the eyes of a narcissist. It’s a turn off it’s not exciting anymore because the victim starts groveling because they’ll do anything for that high.

    Only they don’t understand the imbalance in their own brain that’s happening. They have become addicted and during the horrid devalue stage, which is so damn ugly, they still remain hooked.

    So the bottom line is the victim needs to understand the bad habit and addiction that they have fallen prey to. Understanding that this has developed a problem inside the phone. And then they can work on becoming stronger and recognize this so it doesn’t happen in the future to them.

  10. Funny this came up today. The day of my disenchantment.

    “Like ingredients in a particularly delicious cocktail I combine all of these things which matter to you and weave my magic to create a drink which you will never want to stop drinking.”

    Yes. This. If I had the ability to do this, make somebody feel this way, I’d NEVER stop. I can’t comprehend. I just can’t.

    Once you’ve tasted this, everything else in life is dull.

    1. “Once you’ve tasted this, everything else in life is dull.”

      I refuse to believe this, MB.
      It takes time, healing and a change in perspective, in how we look at life. But it can be done, I am sure of it.

      We are whole. Nobody and nothing can take this away. And there is no dullness when you’re whole.

      1. Abe, I know you are correct. A change in perspective is the key. And breaking the magic cocktail addiction. But damage has been done, there is no doubt about it.

        1. You can think of it as damage, or you can see it as a lesson, a possibility to grow, a positive experience. We can’t be the same as before, true that. We can be much better, stronger, happier, ready to see beauty of the small things we did not see before!

          It is indeed ET, as HG says, to believe that it’s never going to end. Logically, if you think about it, what is so different about you or about the world around so as to justify this “dullness” feeling? What is missing now that was not missing before your narc? Nothing!

          1. Abe: You may have to sit this one out. Many of us found the Narcissist male interesting. I sure did. And I am in NYC full of what should be interesting men, yes? But, the Narcissist was the one interesting enough for me to fall into some sort of an unusual web. That defied my comprehension. Perhaps, if more normal men would work on their charm more, we would have noticed them more. But, Narcissist men have an extra degree of charm to help them survive. And they use this advantage. That is why so many ordinarily intelligent and even confident and even financially capable, and self sufficient women are on this site. In fact, if I were not able to provide for myself, I would not have been able to suffer the infatuation I felt about him and in addition, suffer the harassment of his minions, because they came along with the package. And still, I became overly exhausted with it all, and had to put an end to it. Nothing even actually happened to cause a epiphany, beyond I finding I was losing the ability to function and I made the decision after listening to what the dynamics were about, and that it was best for me to leave, and that my career would not flourish, to remove myself from it all, to their shock, I am finding out. I had to. We wanted the life that at least the Narcissist could at least mirror back to us. That mirroring felt very therapeutic to many of us. But, something was missing, or something was not being actualizing, and we attempted to meet this need with a person that had conflicting needs. A collision. But, these men do have something alluring about them. Or, they would not have able to ensnare us. I want normal or emphatic going forward, and if he could possess at least half of the charm and the allure of His Somatic Highness that I was entangled with, I would count that as a definite WIN, for me.

          2. I see these as different – attraction towards Ns vs this feeling of dullness. I don’t think they are the same. The attraction will always be there.

            The feeling (which I also share, I did not say I don’t) will (has to) subside. But I am using my logic to prove to myself that, although it is real, it is completely unjustified.

            For me and MB, it is a bit different also because we’re already married, we have partners. We need to adjust back to them. It’s not our partners’ problem. We are the ones having an issue, they are just perfect the way they are.

            As for more normal men being attractive – I’m no expert 🙂, but I think you need to give them a chance to open up, to prove their worth, their attractiveness. It happens in time. The narcs can do this from the beginning, it’s their way of life. With a high price down the road. A more normal man would take things slower, I guess. It does not mean they can’t be “crazy”, laugh with you, make you feel special, write you poems, make great sex. But they need a chance to show all that…

          3. Abe,
            I have noticed from the beginning that you have a much better grip on this whole logical way of thinking then most of us on here do. I don’t know if this is because you are a man or if logical thinking is usually what you do except when you get ensnared by a narcissist?

            You say for you and MB it is different because you are married and it is not your partners problems that they are perfect. I will disagree with you on this one, they are not perfect, if they were perfect or the partnership was perfect you wouldn’t have fallen for the narcissist. Sometimes it is just a matter of communication between the two partners, but other times there truly is something missing or perhaps they have just grown apart with change as the years have gone by?

            I have to tell you that at times I feel like a junkie just waiting for that next hit. That is what the addiction to my narcissist is like to me! To be able to be as strong as you with your logical thinking would be freaking amazing! 🙃

          4. FM1T,

            Not only my logic, also my empathic traits (towards my family) were at a minimum during the entanglement.

            Well, I exaggerated a bit when I said my wife is perfect 🙂. I know she is not. But, in many aspects, she is way over my Nx. And also, for now, I see no reason for her to change the way she is. I have to work on myself, and only when this is done I can start claiming that she needs to improve.

          5. Abe,
            Sometimes you make smile just by the way you word things. 😊
            Only when this is done I can start claiming that she needs to improve.
            I can’t wait to read how that works out for you! Lol 🙃

          6. “Only when this is done I can start claiming that she needs to improve.”

            🙂 What I was trying to say is that until I am not stable, I don’t even know exactly what she needs to improve, because I cannot see straight, so I might get it totally wrong. So there’s no point in doing that earlier…

            It always works out, FM1T, one way or another… 🙂
            I am also usually very lucky.

          7. Oh Abe I was only teasing you! Lol. I knew what you were trying to say. Don’t take offense to this next line my friend, If you feel lucky after what you just went through with a narcissist? You can keep that kind of luck! 🥰

          8. No offense taken.

            And yes, I was lucky. I had a lot of fun too, not only bad days. I learned a lot. I am improving (I think).

            I would not trade this experience for another, and not only because it’s impossible… 🙂

          9. Abe,
            If I’m going to be honest with you not all of my days ( with my last narcissist, that is ) we’re bad either. That man rocked my world! 😉🙃

          10. Abe and PSE, you both bring up good points. I started typing this earlier and it disappeared so my apologies if it comes through twice.

            PSE, you may be on to something with the PPD comment. I suffered with it terribly with both of my pregnancies. Wonder if some people are just more prone to the dullness (depression) setting in after an anticipated event passes? I get the dullness after Christmas, birthdays, vacations, etc. (Anything that I anticipate for a period of time.)

            My nerve endings were on high alert with giddy anticipation while engaged with the N. After spending so long in such an anticipatory state, how could I expect anything other than dullness to replace it?

            Abe, I disagree with the logic of the dullness wasn’t there before. Maybe not the depression or the “coming down from the high”, but life in general was mundane before. After taking away the N drug, the mundane seems worse than before. Maybe it really isn’t. Maybe it’s just the same. But it WAS there before in my marriage. It may have been different in yours. The mundane is fertile ground for the entanglement to occur in my opinion.

          11. MB,

            I know about the “mundane”. It’s a routine we enter after a while in a relationship.
            But the post-N dullness is nothing like it… Damn, everything is dull afterwards, not only your partner. Your friends, work, going out, food, everything is dull. Fuck that.

            In my opinion, we now have a chance to fix that “mundanity”. Because we saw the alternative, and it’s not bright at all. Because we understand now much more – we’ve all become little psychology experts (maybe not experts, but somewhat experienced).
            How to do that? Well… no idea yet! 🙂

            A digression about the mundane feeling in a normal relationship:
            A N-relationship avoids it because as soon as fuel becomes stale, the N starts the devaluation/respite cycle, which prevents it.
            A normal relationship is similar in that it naturally evolves towards the mundane, but is tends to stay there, because there is no need for any of the partners to go up and down playing with the other’s feelings.

          12. Abe, I see what you mean! The dullness is a temporary state of affairs. The mundane is forever. (Not a bad thing.) Mundane is stable, comfortable, predictable, and safe. It is a much better place to be than being dunked under water repeatedly and dancing on puppet strings.

            Sometimes I miss the excitement. I never miss the push and pull. As time goes on, I find myself grateful for what I have and just as grateful for what I don’t. I wasn’t active on the blog when you first started posting, so I don’t know your age. I’m mid forties, and have found that as I’ve aged, I’ve moved toward contentment. That is my ultimate goal. Complete surrender to what is; no lack, no wanting.

          13. Abe: I disagree with your first sentence: [` I see these as different – attraction towards Ns vs this feeling of dullness. I don’t think they are the same. The attraction will always be there.`]. Abe, you also say the dullness is not justified. However, justified or not, it is a problem that can grow over time, if we underestimate how our emotional thinking can hijack that feeling of dullness, magnify it and use it against our overall well being. Emotions in moderation are healthy and good, but our runaway Emotional Thinking is addictive to the Narcissist and has blinders on and will hijack any feeling we have to push us to return to the Narcissist. Even a feeling a dullness. Maybe especially that feeling. The rest of your reply, I pretty much agree with though.

            Abe, However, there really is a dullness that many women feel after removing themselves from the male narcissistic whether she is an IPPS or NIPPS and all the other members of the fuel matrix dynamic. I have heard this discussed so many times on here. I join the fold now, as I am in the dullness phase of my disengagement. I am glad that BlackUnicorn123 gave a name to my feeling. I know some of the ensnared are married, but I am positive that being married adds another level of angst, rather than alleviate the dullness, probably. The dullness occurs in the area of the mind that we hoped could be fullfilled as hinted at or mirrored by the Narcissist. I think to downplay this feeling of dullness during the aftermath will leave an opening for the Emotional Thinking to hijack it and present a false choice to the ensnared to either: re-engage with the Narcissist or face a devastatingly dull and blah life for the rest of your life. That is of course a false choice, but it can be effective and believable if the logic is unaware that this false choice can be a stage in the disengagement cycle, and also unaware that the false choice is being driven by the addicted Emotional Thinking. I believe that many normal and empathetic women also may have lost some charm and allure and have made it easy for the charming and alluring somatic females to ensnare some of the best men as well. So many men say (in a composite) she was so beautiful in her own way, she smelled so nice and I was so proud to be seen with her. Her body was so sexy and fit. I loved it. And, she liked everything I liked. She said we were soulmates, and that I would be an excellent father. She wanted to have a lot of babies with me. My friends were jealous, and all men wanted her. I felt good. She always listened to me and called me Daddy Bear in the bedroom. I loved taking her shopping. She looked so good when she stepped out of the dressing room. Other women envied her. But, no one`s phone lost its battery charge as much as her phone did. Sometimes I could not reach her for hours, or for a couple days. I worried. And when I told her, I needed to know where she was, she did not speak to me for a week. Every time. Why is she like this? And every man can not be her cousin, that comes into town. And boy, my credit card bill is high now and I do not know how to tell her we must ease up on the shopping. One day her phone rang, and as I reached to hand it to her, she was like a gymnast as she leaped to take it from me. When I asked her why, she said that privacy is a must. She left me this week, and now one of her supposed cousins is now her new boyfriend. I hurt, I miss her. Most females are not like her, but I have to go back to regular females. That hurts. Abe, I agree with your entire statement except for your first line. Do not underestimate the charm and lure of the Narcissist. With this knowledge, most of us can fight off the dullness feeling faster using our zero impact protocols. If we underestimate this dullness, it will be lurking and the Emotional Thinking is watching and will hijack this feeling, because the addicted ET is vigilant and is ready to make a move, when we are most weak. And then we could do something that we will really regret. We normals and empaths have also made it easy in some ways for Narcissists to treat the world as their playground. And I believe this trend will increase as normals and empaths become more apathetic, while the Narcissist are now really coming into their own in a world that is more in more in favor of Narcissistic behaviour.

          14. PSE,

            I said the feeling is real, and I also have it. I am not downplaying that. But by proving to myself that the feeling has no real reasons to occur, I expect it to diminish.

            My reasoning attraction vs “dullness” is the following – we, as humans, are attracted (sexually and not only) to what we are attracted. That is something we cannot change. It is something we don’t need to hide of, fear or feel ashamed about. We can (and have to) manage it though.

            Attraction and dullness are related, of course, but not the same.

            The dullness, in my opinion, is just a figment of our imagination (ET). It has no reason to be there, so we should be able to completely obliterate it. The proof is that it was never there before the narc. The attraction was always there, and will always be. This dullness was not, and should not always be.

          15. Abe, you seem to be further along in your battle against ET. I move forward and then slip backwards. The momentum is overall forward and that is good.

            Have you completed the Zero Impact assistance Package? I didn’t think I was ready for it, but HG seems to think I am. I thought it was similar to Revenge. I thought you had to be in certain place before the idea of ZI could be entertained or it would fail. Maybe I misunderstood.

            Right now, I’m struggling with allowing the memories to slip away. I’m attached to them. I enjoyed that time immensely. I don’t want to let those feelings go for fear I’ll never have them again.

            Baby summed it up pretty well in Dirty Dancing: “most of all I’m scared of walking out of this room and never feeling the rest of my whole life the way I feel when I’m with you.”

          16. MB why did you have to bring that scene up? Ugh! That is exactly the way I feel! I fight it and try to move forward every day and for the most part I can shut it down when I feel it, except at night when I’m alone with this mind that never shuts down.

          17. MB,

            Yes, I kind of feel the same – going forward and backward, but with overall momentum forward.

            I did not buy the 0IAP. I’m waiting for some reviews on that one, and also I have some privacy concerns. But definitely, from all HG’s stuff, that’s the one package I’m most inclined to buy (except books, I did not buy anything else from HG).
            I also like to figure out things on my own (while “stealing” as much as possible from HG and from those on this blog, of course), and I did not give up on this idea for now.
            I’m definitely not at Zero Impact yet.

            For the memories… obviously, we’ll have to accept at some point that yes, that’s how it’s going to be – never have them again.
            I’m not sure why we fear that, probably the same old ET.
            It was beautiful and intense, but not healthy and stirred up by fakeness.

            It comes back to the same perspective change, finding beauty and peace and happiness in the small things of life.
            But it’s not only that. I don’t know how to explain. I sometimes see glimpses of that state, but cannot seize it. It is a deep peace and calmness and being satisfied with yourself, but there is no dullness. On the contrary, everything is bright, fresh and invigorating. When I have that, nothing external makes big impressions anymore. It’s like I am cruising above all shit with grace, and actually see that there is no shit below, it is just what is…

            So, I know it’s there, and this gives me hope and strength to continue.
            Please believe that it’s possible and continue your search.

          18. Abe, “cruising above all shit with grace”. I like that. You have a lot of class and a lot of heart. Thank you for your words of encouragement.

      2. “Once you’ve tasted this, everything else in life is dull.”

        I sort of have to reluctantly agree with this. I’ve come a long way, I consider myself practically healed, I’ve absorbed and understood HGs knowledge, everything is back how it should be ….and yet, I feel a permanent emptiness inside, which I’ve had to wrap my new life around (similar to what an oyster does with a grain of sand). It gets smaller as my life gets bigger, but it is still there, and I think it always will be.
        My friend has combat PTSD, and she admitted to me once that her life is empty and meaningless now. She is so restless and dissatisfied that she would go back in an instant, to feel that hit of terror and adrenaline once again. She craves it. She would also go with the view of never returning. Life is so empty for her now she does not want to live; suicide is not an option and so she would jump at the chance to die “honourably”.
        It’s not the same, but there are similarities, and I immediately understood and accepted what she meant. Her brain chemistry has been fundamentally changed forever, an addiction has been created, and that can never be underestimated.

        1. The first sentence is a manifestation of emotional thinking. It wants everything to feel dull so you go back to the narcissist and engage in some way to feed the addiction. By reducing the emotional thinking through solid no contact and the effluxion of time, this viewpoint will evaporate.

          1. That first sentence (ET words) were mine. Maybe I will live long enough to see sufficient “effluxtion of time” to pass.

          2. You said you hoped to see it in your lifetime. You’ll easily see it in your lifetime through Zero Impact

          3. Thank you HG. I hope you make a fortune through the assistance packages. It’s even better than cloning yourself.

            Typing this as Lady A sings on my phone: “And what if time doesn’t do what it’s supposed to do?
            What if I never get over you?”

            https://youtu.be/rbFj2t9d7Z8

          4. 4.3 million views on that video. Yeah, I’d say a few people need Zero Impact.

          5. HG, I totally agree with your first two sentences. It’s your last sentence that I have trouble with, and in particular, the time element. It just makes me despondent sometimes that this, maybe, will be how I will feel for the rest of my life. Even if I could be given a rock solid guarantee I would never see or interact with him ever again, I will always have a kind of nostalgia for how I felt during the seduction. This empty yearning feeling is now separate and unrelated to him (or at least I think it is. ET again?) I can’t really explain other than to say I feel fundamentally altered. I felt utterly destroyed by him, but then, I feel powerfully rebuilt by you. I have learned so much here I cannot think or feel the same way as I did before. I can only hope your comments about time are true. You’re right about everything else, so maybe I should just have “faith” it will happen eventually. Thanks, HG.

          6. Hello BU123 what you’ve written evidences further emotional thinking and your mindset evidences this although it’s common and understandable – use the Zero Impact Assistance Package this is what it’s designed to address.

          7. Thanks HG, I will address this at the first opportunity. I’ve been away on business a lot over the last couple of months and there are a few things from here I need to tidy up and consult with you about. I need to clear some time so I can deal with it all properly.

          8. Blackunicorn,

            I hope you make the time to consult with HG sooner then later. I know there are some who doubt his word and knowledge, ( I’m not speaking of you btw ) these are people who either have not read his work, or are just trying to poison the minds of other’s for what ever reason, be it jealousy, ignorance, being narcissists themselves, or blind to the fact that this man has helped thousands of people free themselves from the addiction to narcissists. Someday you and I will be two more of those people. Have a great weekend BU! 🥰

          9. Thank you, FM1T, have a great weekend too! I can’t believe people doubt him either!!! As soon as I started reading his stuff I knew I had struck real gold (as opposed to Fools Gold). How can people not see it?!!! One day we will raise our glasses to freedom!!! Xx

          10. BlackUnicorn,
            Yes, we will prove the doubters wrong! I’ll raise a glass with you anytime, and it just doesn’t have to be for our freedom! Lol 🍻

          11. BU123, i am not very familiar with you Narc experience, but it is no matter. I think the impact from the experience, whatever it is, is similar in many of us. I could’ve written exactly what you said here. I don’t see how you can come out unchanged. I’m think I’m going to order the ZI package. I’ve been trying to decide between that and having him help me with self esteem through a consultation. Maybe this will be a two fer. I want to see what it’s about. HG is good, he’s real good.

          12. Us unicorns are feeling similarly today. Know that I’m thinking of you. I feel the same hurt and outlook for the future. If HG can change that, I will be even more indebted than I am now. I’ll never be able to repay him as it is.

          13. Thank you, MB!!! I wish you well too! I will never be able to repay him either, it is a huge debt. I’m an ACON and was also ensnared romantically, so he has helped me retune my whole life. I cannot underestimate what he has done to help me.

          14. Dearest HG: This is so profound and incredible what you posted to blackunicorn123: [` The first sentence is a manifestation of emotional thinking. It wants everything to feel dull so you go back to the narcissist and engage in some way to feed the addiction. By reducing the emotional thinking through solid no contact and the effluxion of time, this viewpoint will evaporate`] ~~HG Tudor. Dear HG, Your knowledge of Emotional Thinking is phenomenal. If we really give your advice a true chance, you CAN defeat the more covert and sophisticated and seditious skills of our emotional thinking, that can destroy us. Please speak some more of this “DULLNESS“ grenade that the emotional thinking tossed into the fray when we are feeling better, in the fullness of time. So many readers discuss this dullness. I had not idea that it was something that could be defeated if wrestled with using logic. I would NEVER have considered that ET could driving the feeling of dullness in order to encourage one to recommence with the Narcissist. How insidiously clever this, ET! I too suffer from the dullness malaise , but by following my disengagement protocol, it is FINALLY lifting, and my own personality is emerging. I am not the same, but no one alive stays exactly the same. I will never regret becoming wiser.

          15. PSE – I would never have married the dullness malaise with ET either; I just assumed it was an unforeseen and unfortunate by-product I would also welcome an article on it. Thank you! X

          16. PSE, I’ve chalked the dullness up to the removal of the addictive agent. Is the ET a manifestation of the addiction HG?

          17. Do narcs suffer from this feeling of “dullness” as well?

            Is this what causes a lot of the magical thinking and need To hyperbolize every situation? I understand the need to control is a key factor, but Ive met two narcs through work that will tell outrageousness tall tales and from an outside perspective (as many of us speak ill of them behind Thier backs because of it) it seems as though they are not happy with thier mundane lives either…. and need to fill this void this way.

            Any thoughts?

          18. It is not a dullness, there is the repeated need to try to fill the chasm and keep The Creature at bay.

          19. Of course! You surprise me often with your answers. I should’ve thought that one through.

          20. Interesting. So the perceived grandiose (or the believed difference they feel they have to us mere mortals) causes the insane lies? Because these lies are SO out there they genuinely make themselves look insane and people make fun of them for it. Similar to the whole fake phone call situation.

            I don’t have a good grasp on the creature or what that feels like for the narc.

            So as an outsider I understandibly have a diffucult time understanding why someone would need to lie about their life so much… if they were so happy with it and so amazing and above everyone… then they shouldn’t need to make things up. To the outsider the need to make things up looks as though the person making them up is sorely lacking and self esteem and confidence to accept the truth.

          21. I need Zero Impact Assistance help, too, HG. I live and breathe him 24/7… and the rest of my world has become a blur for so long, now.

            Until I can overcome this addiction, I will not ever truly be ‘living’. I am afraid that, one day, I will wake up with much regret over time wasted pining over him, while I lived my life in a fog, apart from a life that really does matter.

            But, I cannot seem to make myself stop. Even when I am super busy, he is still in my every thought. I cannot let it go. This clamp is too tight and will not release its hold by will, alone.

          22. Yes, first I will go through initial Consultation.

            Thank you, immensely, M. Tudor, H.G.!

          23. Dearest HG and BlackUnicorn123, Regarding Knowing The Narcissist (KTN): The more we learn about the Narcissist, the more we learn about ourselves, as well. It is unbelievable. In a good way.

          24. Believer. I understand you perfectly. I lived and breathed the Narcissist as well, as much as possible, as a Non Intimate Person Second Source (NIPSSP). And it was fun! Until it was no longer fun… I needed a way off the path that had slowly and sneakily turned into a labyrinth, while I was having fun, and while I was not observant. When, I finally opened my eyes to the fact that the fun was nearly all gone, I floundered in the complex maze that I surprisingly found myself in. I did not know what it all was. I only knew I wanted out. Like screaming S.O.S.!!! And I found my way here to Narcite. To learn how to un-fun all aspects of this entanglement. To un-fun everything, except the knowlege and wisdom and understanding that I have gained.

          25. Is Idris Elba a narcissist HG? I’m secretly hoping for him because he wasn’t dull in the sex scene with Kate Winslet. If he’s not I have a public service sort of thing in mind for him.

          26. Exactly HG. Addictions voice is powerful And persuasive. I once watched this great video clip that addressed the feeling of someone getting high for the first time and how each time they chase that same high they are disappointed and then chacing it again and again in order to re create the essence of the first high… only crashing down further and further after each attempt…

            Similar feelings happen when chacing the high with a narc.

            They can and do fill up perceived “dullness”

          27. Is it the LMR and MMR who struggle the most to fill the chasm? Especially as they age. I observe a few of these and they really do swing from being incredibly low and depressed to manic when being well fuelled. But their fuel runs dry very quickly.

          28. Ah great! I guess I don’t interact with LL/MLs quite as much as the other Ns. But it makes perfect sense from what I know.

        2. Black Unicorn. HG Tudor oftens talks about: Hijacking. The Emotional thinking is a master hijacker at times. So, I know that some of the dullness is there in fact. However, in time, and in a much quicker time, with a zero impact protocol, we can conquer this feeling of dullness quicker, and not be tricked to returning back to the pit of our hell. I went from an incredible exhaustive malaise, to feeling bette and now to this dullness. That feeling of dullness is finally lifting, because of my disengagement protocol. I had not really addressed this dullness either, but it is quite dangerous I see from Hg`s explanation and I am glad you brought it up. So, what I understand that HG is saying to us is that our Emotional Thinking seizes upon, hijacks, some of the dullness we actually experience and unawares to us, actually magnifies it and then deludes us into thinking the only remedy for the dullness is to reach out to the Narcissist, that our runaway Emotional Thinking is addictive to. A super bad move.

      3. Abe: I was never arguing against your logic regarding the dullness and the attraction. I just felt there was an underlying lack of acknowledgement of the dangers of runaway Emotional Thinking that has drubbed many of our logical powers at times. In short, it is easy to be logical when one is not in the throes of runaway Emotional Thinking. The attraction is always there. For that I will agree, mainly because HG says so as well, and other women say that are largely only attracted to Narcissists. I guess I could say the same, but I have low natural attraction for men from just looking at them. I am a personality person, largely. I have been around very attractive looking men all my life, and so I am not so moved by it, like a lot of my friends have been in my life. However, I am very glad you are not downplaying the post narc-entanglement dullness that women have and speak of. There was a time that the medical world also downplayed the feelings of dullness that many women felt after giving birth. Now it is called postpartum depression. And, more medical practitioners are taking these women`s malady more seriously, finally. I have read many women discuss this dullness and I am now also in the dullness phase of my disengagement. I do not think I would have a relapse, if I accidentally run into His Somatic Highness, but the awareness of this dullness and its dangerous implications, adds another chink, to my Always Resisting armor.

        1. Diagnostic is most important in any treatment (for obvious reasons). So either post partum depression or dullness, it is important to recognize it. Also, it is important to recognize that the dulness is ET (HG says this here, and I agree). So it is not something which ET hijacks, it is (generated by) ET.

          Any form of ET (re N) is dangerous. So there can’t be any downplaying of that.

          As for attraction to Ns – my theory is that we are attracted by certain traits, not narcs per se, and we can find those traits in empaths too, and with more satisfying results. Looks might be important or not, but usually they are just one of the many traits we are attracted by.

          Why does being aware of something and being capable to articulate what it is make you more vulnerable (“a chink in your armor”)? To me, it seems quite the other way round.

          PS (this is not addressed only to PSE): I hope I did not offend anybody by being somewhat blunt. I took this as a debate about ideas, nothing personal to anybody or lack of respect for their feelings. Please take only the ideas from my comments, and only if it suits you of course.

          1. Abe: We disagree. The aware Narcissists love to boast that their feelings are not real. Good for them. But we are not Narcissists on here (most of us) and our feelings are real. (1) The dullness many females feel after we are removed from the Narcissist male is real. and not generated as you say. Try to believe us. However, the runaway Emotional Thinking sees the dullness and hijacks it and then magnifies it and shows it back to us to drive us back to the Narcissist as the remedy, a false remedy of course. Not just the dullness, the runaway emotional thinking will hijack any feelings that we have available to attempt to drive us back to the Narcissist, including feelings of loneliness, nostalgia over certain dates, our love, physical desire, desire for revenge, need of closure, feelings of dullness, desires to celebrate, curiosity, empathy and compassion for the narcissist, desire for companionship, etc., whatever the ET can use to drive us to re-engage with the Narcissist, it will do so, because the runaway ET is ADDICTED to the Narcissist. And dullness is also a feeling that the runaway ET will Hijack. By Hijack I mean the ET will remove our natural and understandable and real feeling of dullness from its normal path of easing and abating and healing and recovering over time, and put our feeling of dullness, after juicing it up as much as possible, on a speedway that is heading down a one way track back to Narcville and back to the Narcissist, to feed its addiction to the Narcissist. (2) I meant another LINK* in my armor instead of chink. A big difference in meaning! Opposite meaning actually. Thanks for catching that mistake in wording So we are in agreement that I feel strengthened in being aware of the dullness. And I am strengthened even more because I now know to realize the feeling of dullness can be hijacked by ET. Therefore, I can make sure my real feeling of dullness is not hijacked by my ET that desires to drive me back to the Narcissist in order to feed its addiction to the Narcissist.. This awareness adds another Link to my Always Resisting armor. A strengthening Link.

          2. Yes, we can agree to disagree… 🙂

            I guess it’s just that for me “dullness” or “boredom” or “mundane” (as MB puts it), while it undoubtedly exists, is not exactly a feeling. I don’t quite see it sitting in the same row as those other you mentioned.
            It’s more like a lack of feeling, a flattening of our affect, of our capacity to react with positive (or even negative) emotions to external stimuli. It’s like a pair of glasses which makes everything outside look flat (except the narc, that is).

            I don’t know… I’m probably not the best to explain or understand this, however, this is what I currently think it is.

            Important thing is to (and here I think we agree):
            1. recognize it,
            2. not see the N as necessary remedy to alleviate it, and
            3. avoid and combat it through logic and any other means.

          3. ABE. Men and women are not the same. Therefore various aspects of our experiences in life are not the same, and can not be the same by definition. Many practitioners in the mental and medical fields especially have problems with understanding that men and women are different and so push us in directions that are not good for us instead of really taking the time and patience to listen to us, or believe us. Perhaps some just do not have the makeup to understand us, and have difficulty believing us. Even when we are in the right. My feelings are real. I am a female in the dullness phase of removing myself from a male Narcissist. I will not allow my ET to hijack my real feeling and escalate it and drive me to re-engage with the male Narcissistic. For me, HG Tudor has an uncanny ability to see the female dynamic as well as the male dynamic. Sure, he studies the dynamic, but there are many students and practitioners, but few if any are State of The Art, like he is. It is a gift he has, and he has honed it. I am so glad.

          4. I’m not sure why you think men and women are so different concerning this “dullness” issue.
            Besides the way you and I interpret the origin of this feeling, I really see no other major discrepancy in between our views.

            Anyway, I’m going to leave this as is, I think we both tried to prove our points quite a lot and it might become a bit dull for the onlookers 🙂.

            Have good day, PSE.

          5. ABE: Everyone is free to read what they want and to skip what they want. There are plenty of topics going on literally 24 hours a day within this Site. If a certain topic is interesting to any one of us at any given time, some of us want to examine it a bit more closely, even if the conversation is dull to some other onlookers. However, although a certain topic discussed by readers may be dull to some, to some others it may be quite interesting, even if they do not jump in. I found and find the topic of the feeling of dullness that females often feel when they remove themselves from, or when they have escaped, or when they have been disengaged/discarded regarding, and thus are no longer engaging with, the male Narcissist, quite interesting. And I am sure it will come up again at some point. Have a good day to you as well, Abe.

      4. Abe—I do prefer zucchini cut up drizzled with Olive Garden dressing over a cheeseburger any day. Maybe it’s possible?

        1. Lorelei
          You choose zucchini over a cheeseburger and think anal beads and watersports are weird and depraved?!! Wow. You think you know someone.…

          1. Absolutely. The dressing is a game changer NA. Not sure if you are in the states but if so it’s very available. I eat a huge pile of veggies every day—tomatoes are my favorite food.

        2. I first read your comment as a notification on email. I skipped the short quote (easy to do on email notifications), so I jumped straight to the comment. For some reason, I was expecting you to reply somewhere on the “anal beads” sub-thread above…

          “I do prefer zucchini”

          Oh… ok… business as usual… mildly surprised (not gonna lie), but other than that, nice job, thumbs up.

          And then it follows

          “… cut up”

          Wait, what? Why? How??

          The image shattered… 🙁

          Context really is important…

          1. It really is all my fault Lorelei since I like zucchini too. I’ll accept the blame shift.

          2. I know you can buy frozen zucchini pasta, but I ordered a pasta maker from Amazon to try. I may do it tonight. Cover with Kerry gold butter sauce.

          3. I would ask you to let me know how it turns out, but we’re already on thin ice with this one!

          4. Hi Abe

            I’m fascinated I did not realise you had an affair I am an ex dirty secret

            When I read your posts can I ask how she was a narc , not a dirty empath

            I’m confused I don’t mean to be biased but I probably after being the dirty secret
            Did she tell your wife
            Why did you have the affair
            I did love my ex narc despite the fact he was married and I was single.

            I’m just interested to hear it from the mans perspective
            Did you love the affair partner

            Kiki

          5. Kiki,

            There are other signs which, in retrospective, told me she was a narcissist. Mostly:
            – she was extremely proud,
            – could never accept others might be right too,
            – could not laugh about herself or stand to be laughed about,
            – lied to me about past events in her life,
            – never accountable for where she is, what she’s doing
            – being late for dates
            – not keeping promises
            – not replying to some messages
            – arguing with me on stupid little subjects
            – never says sorry
            – there is substantial evidence that she has cheated her husband multiple times
            – there is substantial evidence that her child is not her husband’s, but of another man
            – I’m not 100%, but I’m pretty sure she actually dumped me because she restarted her affair with a previous IPSS
            – after shelving me, she played with me for a while, hot and cold, giving me hope then taking it back (while continuously denying doing it), until I said enough of this shit

            I might be wrong in my assessment, but I think I am not, and doubting this has no real positive impact, on the contrary.
            So, to me, she definitely IS a narcissist! 100%.

            She did not tell my wife. She has a facade to protect.
            My wife knows something, but not the whole extent.

            I had the affair because I was really attracted to her, I thought it won’t be a big deal anyway, we just fuck and that’s it. It was not. I fell deeply in love (maybe just infatuated).
            This thing still has a big impact on what I think about and how I feel, every day.

    2. I see you talking about anal beads. I couldn’t reply under that comment. I draw the line on this MB! What ever in the world would someone want those for? And why would anyone want to be peed on? I know why the peeing person would want to pee—but the recipient?? Some of this stuff out there is bizarre indeed but I’m afraid normal men won’t know how to have sex. I’ve seen HG say this isn’t accurate but he isn’t there when they do it.

      1. Lorelei, I’m with you on the pee and the anal beads. I’m more of a vanilla kind of girl myself.

          1. MB my latest gravatar is just for you. I’ll leave this one for awhile.

          2. I have pictures similar. I think we are close in age. Them bangs tho! I had em too. Most all I have are school pictures. I may dig one up for you.

          3. Hahaha maybe the will when fashion changes drastically. Our childhood was marked by many fashion malfunctions.

          4. Oh Abe I just read your post now couldn’t find it

            Hmmm I’m not the expert but I don’t think this is quite enough to call her a narc

            Now if HG says so that’s a difficult story and I apologise

            Something just sticks out to me about your posts on this , a gut feeling I don’t know why but it does

            Remember in an affair there is NO LOYALTY she fucked you and her husband and you her and your wife
            They are the unsaid rules of the game yes

            She had no obligation to provide you with anything but the sex if she wanted because she wasn’t your partner

            This sounds harsh but she actually sounds to me like a strong woman who could give as good as she gets.
            She did not turn into the snivelling wreck ,in love with a man she can’t have I did this .
            She kept a cool head and used you for the sex and fun , men do that to US women regularly does not mean they are narcs.
            Us women have had to learn to adapt to males wanting us for sex only , hence playing hard to get , not getting intimate too soon .We do this to protect ourselves from getting hurt not because they are narcs.

            Is it maybe your ego is shattered as this woman ended it not you .

            It’s just a feeling I have

            Kiki

          5. One thing HG has said (in so many words) is that in a triangle of people if there is an affair there is generally a narcissist involved. I think of this often. I know a lot of men that I couldn’t flirt my way into their beds because they are normal and would never dream of disrespecting their wives. A big red flag for me now is a hint of flirtation by an attached man.

          6. That’s a damn good rule (red flag), any way you look at it, Lorelei.

            But it can get confusing, on the finer points of “who” cheats… from reading one of HG’s sections awhile back, an empath or normal can have that particular narcissistic trait (infidelity)…and I was with a Greater who considered it “beneath him” to be with more than one woman/cheat — and he was charming, but not what I consider “flirtatious” with other women.

            Anyway, your personal “red flag-ness” on this matter is wise.

          7. Agreed and I’m pig pen dirty for cheating—yet ironically it was always that I was with a narcissist and cheated with another.. Funny how I see it now.

          8. It’s not like I’m “Yah, cheating!”… but being with a narcissist is a very tough gig, as you well know. I was with one for 3 years, so I get it. You know a lot more now. I always believe in that “When you know better, you do better” adage.

            Whenever you don’t feel safe/cared for, you’re just not in a good place — and people reach out for all kinds of things, just to feel better. I hope you’re feeling now like there are a lot of other ways for you to feel free + safe + your own kickass self/happy.

            P.S. Are you a GG fan? 😉

          9. Oh Caroline—I am not having any further narcissistic dalliances. I spent my youth being a less than optimally treated hood ornament for several men. That’s about as good as it ever got. The “how bad” it got was so bad for so long I’m intrinsically motivated to not repeat history. Yes—I used occasional interludes for some brand of self-medication from being miserable. Ironically they just produced more misery so it was an endless loop of not getting anywhere. I’m on sabbatical for quite awhile from men. GG?

          10. Good, no more “hood ornament” for you, and look – a cute kitty – you’re gonna be ok. 😉

            Oh, by “GG,” I meant “Gilmore Girls,” a show I used to watch. Lorelei was one of the two main characters.

          11. Kiki,

            First, to clarify a few things:

            1. In case you expect to be able to sway my opinion about her, please drop this expectation. You won’t. To me, she is a narcissist. Period.

            2. Ego. I am a moderately-proud person. I’m pretty accurate at evaluating what I am good at and what I suck at. And I am proud about my strong points. But I am far from being driven by ego. My pride took a hit indeed from she dumping me, but I got over it quickly. The longing, the heartbreak, the bewilderment, the anxiety, the anger – these were more powerful and some of them I still struggle with. I am currently grateful that she ended it rather quickly, I would have been in a much bigger mess now otherwise. Please do not make assumptions about how I felt or how I feel.

            3. With point 1. and 2. out of the way, if there’s anything else you want to discuss about (curiosity, you want to learn something, to clarify something, you want to joke about it or anything else) – I am still open to continue our discussion.

            Back on track:

            1. A woman who conceives a child with another man and then presents that child to her husband as being his – you call this a strong woman. Ok…
            I might be able to say “You are entitled to your opinion, but I strongly disagree”. I’m not sure if I might also be able to keep a straight face while saying it though… 🙂

            2. There are many other indicators of her being a narc. I did not list all of them. Some I might have given away in other posts, some I will probably never do (not because I have something to hide, but for privacy reasons). I have seen her interacting with her husband, with her son, with my wife, with other people. It’s not something you can put your finger on and say – she did that, now that’s definitely a narcissist! There are many little or bigger things which together have solidified my opinion.

          1. Ladies I don’t mean to be disrespectful to Abe maybe it’s my ET but it’s just off to me
            My instincts say an affair that ended and that’s that Manipulated ? I don’t get that vibe at all to be honest

            Kiki❤️

          2. Well—I would say everyone ends up here due to some sort of uncomfortable relationship dynamic at the end of the day. I’ve been substantially off-kilter at times from others perspectives (I’m more than guessing) and it’s ok with me. We each have our own interpretation of our reality and my goal is to keep my future healthy. I’m guessing the majority goal for many of us is similar.

          3. Kiki,
            I will listen to anyone, with an open mind. Can you explain more what you mean? I’m kind of confused.

          4. Abe

            I apologise
            I am pushing my own emotional thinking onto your situation as I was the mistress

            Yes I don’t know your dynamic and it’s my fault for presuming things

            I just reacted when I saw you were married

            I am not judging this as I am the last person on earth to have that right being a long term dirty secret

            It just confuses me you say you fell in love with her
            Can a married man love another woman
            At times my married narc seemed to love me ,or so I thought I was wrong
            Again I want to apologise Abe

            Kiki

          5. Kiki,

            There was no need to apologize, but thank you for doing it.

            “Can a married man love another woman”?

            Love is complicated. 🙂 I’m not going to start theorizing about love now… but…
            There is infatuation, and there is love. Sometimes they blend, some people think they are the same (and a lot of problems arise from this).

            But yes, I had feelings for her. I was ready to accept her the way she was, because I thought that underneath that sometimes incomprehensible, contradictory behavior there was that wonderful woman I saw in the beginning, which was free and beautiful and happy when we were together.

            Why do you think a married man cannot love another woman?

          6. I know this an old thread… but Kiki…. if you are having an affair with a narc, he’s not capable of love so therefore he doesn’t love you or his wife. He simply uses you both for fuel.

            Can a married man love another woman?

            A non narc probably could love (or at least have feelings for two women) however, even with divorce rates being as high as they are, the married person (man or woman) will likely not leave thier spouse for an affair. Even in the case of empaths and normals (we see it on this blog with Some Of the contributors here- they all choose their marriage)

            There are a lot of reAsons for that, finances, children’s well being/stability, long term trust and bond built over the years. Investments, relationships with family and friends etc.

            It is never a good idea to get involved with someone who is married regardless of where they fall on the personality spectrum. There will always be mixed messages.

            I am not saying that to sound preachy…. just to give you some more encouragement to date those who are available. And have the type of love and respect you deserve.

        1. MB Be Vanilla and Be Proud! Wait…..hold on…remember the shifting sands…one day being Vanilla may become the most taboo type of intimacy in existence, considered extremely perverse, and Vanillians may all have to hide in the closet and have secret organizations on the deep web in order to protect themselves.

      2. Lorelei is called masochism, there are masochistic people who enjoy this: to be mistreated. So is also included the pee on them. Others love the fluid heat of that organic liquid that flows over them. It is a matter of perversion.

        1. Gawd no. Never. I don’t get the point? Like any part of it. If I had a good reason?? Seriously.

          1. Can you run with that? And sit down and write? I am thinking whether they’re compatible with my routine.

          2. With L’ange’s creme brûlée and two
            different conditioners including marula oil!

          3. Is narc site activity while jogging a fall hazard? But if I hit my brain it’ll be soft and respond better?!

          4. She calls a 5 mile walk “jogging.” Jogging with the moisturizer on. Haha she’s so cute.

          5. I was indeed and I’m not thinking I’m permitted due to my knee but I don’t follow rules well.

          6. Lorelei, I joked in a previous comment but being serious, be careful with your knees. You don’t want to go through knee replacement…

          7. Naughty FM1T… and curious and open.

            I like that. Keep up the good work! 🙂

  11. Wow. That is just how it was.

    “…all the preparatory work that I undertook before I made my move.” I’ve heard of them doing this before. I had always wondered how he knew some things about me right off the bat. Things I hadn’t made any reference to. We met on a dating site, so, to me at least, it seemed a very chance occurence. Though, we did casually know some of the same people. I always thought he’d spill the beans someday, how he knew so much about me, but he never did.

Vent Your Spleen!

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