Big Little Lies : Madeline Martha Mackenzie

MADELINE MARTHA

Here she is, The Mack Attack, Triple M, The Pocket Rocket, but what is she?

Super Empath? Upper Mid Range Narcissist? Empathic but not an Empath?

What is Madeline Martha MacKenzie

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75 thoughts on “Big Little Lies : Madeline Martha Mackenzie

  1. Anm says:

    My kind of girl!

  2. Anm says:

    Oh man! How did I miss this post?!?! The Mack Attack is Savior Super Empath with a dash of Geyser traits.

  3. Whitney says:

    I vote Super Empath for Madeleine. I think Magnet cadre.

  4. E. B. says:

    IMO, none of The Monterrey Five (Madeline, Celeste, Renata, Jane and Bonnie) are narcissists.

    Although Renata and Madeline have many narcissistic traits, there are behaviours which are not common among female narcissists I have met in real life.
    The most important one is that although some of them do not particularly like each other and there has been conflict, all of them forgot about it and showed solidarity when it came to protecting Bonnie Carlson. In real life, there is no solidarity among women as long as there is a female narcissist in the group.

    Some things about Madeline:

    Although Madeline may not like Renata and is jealous of Bonnie because Nathan left her for her, she does not start a smear campaign to ruin Renata or Bonnie’s lives or to make them scapegoats in the community.

    When Renata threatens Ziggy, she immediately defends him. This is Instinctive Emotional Empathy.

    Madeline seems to be sincerely concerned about her teenage daughter’s future. I think she sincerely wishes Abigail to become independent and self-sufficient.
    If Madeline were a narcissist, she would be jealous of her own daughter and would never want her to be more accomplished than her. Madeline does not regard her teenage daughter as competition. Matrinarcs do. Madeline has encouraged her to go to college, have a career and become financially independent. She was also concerned about Abigail losing her virginity to an auction. I think she really meant it. It was not because she had some personal gain from it.

    Abigail feels under pressure and wants to go to live with her father. Madeline recognizes she has pushed her daughter too far.

    Madeline helped Jane when was new in the community and took her under her wing. She was a young when she had Abigail so she can see there are similarities between Jane and her. Jane asks Madeline why she does not mean to talk about sex, if this is because she was raped. Madeline first said she did not know, that she was trying to be sensitive, that she did not always know the right thing to say but that she did not judge her. I think she was being sincere.

    It seems that Jane was not the first individual she has helped. Ed complained she is “drawn to damaged people”. Madeline disagrees. She says they are not damaged and that she likes to help people in need. Instinctive Emotional Empathy.

    When Madeline sees something is wrong, she springs into action. She does not tolerate injustice and looks to help people.

    I voted Super Empath and I think Madeline belongs to the Saviour cadre.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Another compelling argument. Is it right though? You’ll soon find out.

    2. WhoCares says:

      I agree with you E.B., I don’t think any of these 5 women are narcissists. I had my doubts about Renata in the beginning because of her focus on her daughters birthday at all costs but later she is able to accept she was wrong about Ziggy.

      I also agree with your assessment of Madeline, she definitely is narcissistic in some ways and this keeps her from seeing that some people don’t want to be ‘saved’ or want her involvement but like Renata she is able admit her vulnerability.
      This is demonstrated after the puking scene when talks to her daughter and admits to fucking up when she had an affair.

      I don’t narcissists are able to admit making a mistake or especially taking responsibility for it.

    3. WokeAF says:

      A resounding yes to all of of this!

      I thought Renata was a super bc of narc traits, but now I am more or less settled on empathic but not an empath , or e en geyser empath bc of her hysterics .

  5. WokeAF says:

    EVEN WITHOUT me super imposing empathy on her- I still see evidence of it.

    I’m staying with my vote of Super Saviour Empath

    And with my original votes on the rest of em too.

    Ok . Good.

  6. Anm says:

    Super Savaiour, Dirty Empath. My bestfriend is one of the same. Love these empaths.

  7. Mary says:

    Dear HG

    I’ve only 1 of your book ” Escape”.

    I am trying to do just that for soooooo long, very difficult for me, i am sucked right back in.

    What book would you recommend me
    for my scenario:

    “Older woman, narc 31 years old. I have been his Secondary Intimate Source for the first few years.
    He lives in another city with his parents still.
    Very intelligent with a super memory, grandiose self esteem, and excellent writer.

    Now i feel shelved, but in constant demand of submission and attention to his ” love words” .
    No intimacy. Future faking.
    Going out for walks and a meal when i give in.

    Declarations of love galore, fake promises to keep me dangling.
    I still don’t understand his grandiose love
    declarations and his reasons for keeping me in this position.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Fuel, Exorcism, No Contact, Sex.

      1. Mary says:

        Thank you HG

        I will try to get one at time.

    2. NarcAngel says:

      Mary
      Read the books for sure, but there’s nothing like a consultation because it speaks to your specific situation and not in general terms as he must do in the books.

      1. Mary says:

        Hi NarcAngel

        I did a consultation about 2/3 years ago

        HG was very informative

        but i go back to the narc all the time… i don’t know that it is because he is sensing that i am trying hard to escape i (have gone no contact several times) therefore he has “up the ante” with future faking, extravagant love declaration etc… etc…
        I want to know specifically why he is keeping me this way… is not really a relationship as such anymore, but he claims to love me with all his being … 🙄

        Yet in reality i see only beautiful words..

  8. Mary says:

    HG

    Per Bristow also come across to me as a narc , i am not sure.

  9. MommyPino says:

    I voted for Super Empath. She did a lot of narcissistic things but I think that her empathy was always real. Super because she hates injustice and always has the courage to step in and be involved and goes to the rescue.

    1. Chihuahuamum says:

      Hi mommy pino…totally agree!

      1. MommyPino says:

        Thank you CM and I love your analysis as well. You explained very well why her empathy is real and how she felt deeply about things. I also want to add two instances that made me decide she isn’t a narc. First was when she stopped the car and cried alone because of her sympathy for Jane. She could have done that when she was with Jane as Jane revealed to her that she was raped but she didn’t. She tried to be strong in front of Jane and be a stable and empathic listener. And then when Jane was not there anymore in the car she allowed herself to break down and cry. Second was when Renata finally apologized to Jane. Madeline told Renata that it takes a very big person to apologize. In spite of their battle over Rebata’s treatment of Ziggy, Madeline didn’t paint Renata black. So when Renata apologized, Madeline was open and even big enough to acknowledge that what Renata did was hard and good.

        1. Chihuahuamum says:

          Hi mommypino…awesome examples!! I had forgotten to mention that about what she said to renata and how she forgave her and welcomed her into the group.
          The other example i dont remember of her crying after being told about jane ill have to go back and watch.
          Yes theres no way she is even remotely a narcissist!
          Shes my favorite character! My best friend is a lot like her. Shes very outspoken not at all like myself altho shes helped me to break out of my shell over the years 😄

          1. MommyPino says:

            Thank you CM, she is also one of my favorite characters. The way that she treated Ed and the guy that she had an affair with annoyed me. But looking at everything, I agree with you, her heart is in a good place even though she’s not a saint. I can also understand about the teen situation. I know a lot of loving parents who ended up in that situation without realizing it until their kids were already teens and now they’re trying to catch up. My husband is an example. Things like that can happen to good people too, not just abusive parents. Relationships always need to be taken cared of constantly and consistently and parenting is the same but sometimes life happens and a parent is not always able to bring their 💯 as much as they want to.

        2. Chihuahuamum says:

          I wanted to also say i really can relate to madeline in so many ways especially with her teenage daughter. My daughter is a early teen and i feel at times i havent focused as much as i should have. Sometimes i feel were strangers and it scares me. Ive been trying to spend more time with her to reconnect. I get how madeline feels. She feels like shes losing her child and wants to reestablish the closeness she took for granted.
          I was listening on my way home to the 70s song cat in the cradle and it really is what i dont want! I dont want time to fly by and end up losing the closeness and time with my children. I dont want to be that woman whose adult children have no interest in being close to their parents. I choose to prioritize them over other areas of my life now so later we share a close bond.

          1. MommyPino says:

            CM, it does happen a lot to many good parents. Also at teen years, it is normal for teenagers to assert and test their independence. Test the waters. It’s like the toddler years too but they are bigger and capable of more stuff (good and bad). I think that for me having a matrinarc, that teen years was an incredibly difficult crisis because as I was trying to assert more independence, my engulfing mom was trying to exert more control to quash my desire to be an individual. So more resentments and conflicts were created. It is a tough balance of giving their freedom but at the same time making sure that they are not doing anything foolish since they are still immature. And to be able to be present with them without them resenting your presence is so tricky.

            By the way, Madeline’s character is one of the reasons I loved watching the show. Her personality always perks me up but is not overbearing.

          2. Chihuahuamum says:

            Hi mommypino…good point about the teenage years! Id not thought of it that way comparing it to toddler years but youre right both are developmental hurdles. Even the closest parent child bonds can struggle during the teenage years.
            Yes madeline makes the show imo but i know there will be those that hate her as well. Thats what i love about this series its a melting pot of different personalities.

    2. Mary says:

      Any narcissist seems to hate injustice, however it is for their owm advantage and admiration.

      My narc at first seemed to be the most emphatic person ever met, now he is a ferocious beast, regarding nothing except his own needs, and in order to have those needs “fuel” met.. he might ” turn” emphatic again… 🙄

      1. MommyPino says:

        Mary I agree. My EMMRN sister was very opinionated about animal rights and racial inequality and yet did the opposite towards me when no one was around. I think the difference here is that Madeline still has empathy when no one was watching her.

        1. Chihuahuamum says:

          Hi mommypino…yes thats where you really see true empathy when theres no audience or motivator other than feeling empathy.
          Dirty angels think they are empathetic but if they dont have an audience they lose interest or if they dont recieve praise they sulk or throw a fit or be passive aggressive.
          Madeline clearly on many occasions feels empathy and concern for others when theres no one around.

  10. alexissmith2016 says:

    HG did you intentionally leave MMM until last because you knew she would be the one who caused the most disagreement as to what she is.

    Jeees if she is an SE, I don’t want to be an empath anymore. I’d rather be a mechanically, robotic, cerebral lower lesser victim narc who smells, has a big nose and rotten teeth if there is such a thing – all alone with no source of fuel.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I left her until last because I knew people would find her difficult to categorise and therefore they needed to ‘get their eye in’ so to speak.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Thank you. I will be very interested to read your review on her. I suspect we may be waiting a little while. So I’ll carry on as I am.

  11. Chihuahuamum says:

    Hoping to get crave set up so i can watch season 2!
    Madeline…she is imo a super empath! She is one of my favorite characters in the show. Her antics crack me up probably bc id never be so bold to say or do some of the things she does. Shes not afraid of conflict and welcomes it but she does so in her convictions. A narcissist does it to trigger fuel but madeline feels deeply about things and stands up for them.
    Her empathy really stands out when she boycotts renata’s daughters bday party bc of ziggy being isolated and not invited. She supports jane and the horrible way renata treated her. She took jane under her wing and gave her the strength and backing she so needed and thats a true friend!!
    Another moment her empathy comes thru is her deep guilt over her affair. She is battling with it and we see has been for some time. When ed is singing his song you can see the pain in her and the turmoil. I do wonder if maybe she isnt in love with ed. She loves him but im not so sure the passion is there and he senses that. They may be too different as far as personalities go.
    She doesnt want to hurt him yet theres a disconnect. The other areas of her life overshadow ed and i think she doesnt realise that theyve grown apart. She gets more from her volunteer work, friends and school activities. Her marriage has taken a backseat and i think its bc shes not in love with ed.
    Here is a prime example as discussed in other threads where an empath can do things that make them look like a narcissist but the one main component of having npd is lack of empathy. She most certainly doesnt lack empathy and it isnt a fake empathy bc in both instances of jane and also ed there was no acting or motivator to fake empathy it was real.
    She also is concerned over reconnecting with her teenage daughter and realises her daughters are growing up very fast! She realises that precious time has passed and she hasnt always put them first. The fact her daughter is connecting with bonnie is an eye opener. Yes she was jealous at first but i think the jealousy has passed and its more a wake up call. I do think shes starting to appreciate bonnie and i could see them becoming good friends. Bonnie is filling an area of her daughters life shes not been able to but i think she wants to and is making little efforts to. She clearly loves her daughters and this is a sign of empathy.
    She is most definitely NOT a narcissist! Does she have some narc traits?? Yes and we all do. Does she make mistakes and bad choices yes. Those do not make her a narcissist lacking empathy does. She does not lack empathy.
    She isnt a normal either bc she feels very passionately about the people in her life and what shes involved in.

    1. Presque Vu says:

      CM I think you are spot on. You make some very valid points especially about her teenage daughter, I’ve been there with my sons – it’s a very very hard time. Teenagers are a nightmare and there is always a testing of the boundaries – they clash at times but the undeniable love is there. She has raised two emotionally solid girls.

      She has many narc traits! But she’s not a narc. I have acted in many ways like her and HG has confirmed I am not a Narc and gave me several reasons why i’m not during consultation.

      What this show has shown me is the very fine line between being a Narc and a Super Empath. That line is empathy – and she has it in abundance!

      1. Chihuahuamum says:

        Hi presque vu…yes! I agree this show outlines the empathy cake article. I think its so easy to mistake someone as a narc because they do narky things but even empaths can borrow from the narc toolbox and do silent treatments, triangulate etc. We all have narc traits. What i ask myself when dealing with a toxic person isnt are they a narc its how do they treat me and is it toxic. Is it bringing me down. Npd i think is a spectrum and there are some non narcs that are just as bad.
        As far as madeline shes got a good heart. I think people confuse her with being a narc bc of the way shes outspoken and her affair two of which dont make her a narcissist. Her super empath classification is her ability to not only stand up for herself but others and fight for whats right. She feels very deeply about her friends, her daughters, her hubby and her volunteer work with the directing.
        She is in your face and doesnt take BS but she also has a heart of gold.
        I love the scenes with her and renata lmao i cant help but laugh at her antics bc id never say the things she says but i sure do think them 😁😁😁

  12. alexissmith2016 says:

    Is RW a narc in RL HG? I have never seen or heard of her until you introduced me to big little lies, I do now understand she’s quite a big celeb!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No, she is not, AS2016.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Goodness. That is a somewhat pleasant surprise! Thank you

      2. alexissmith2016 says:

        Perhaps this is why little bits of empathy leak through in her performance? I do hope your analysis about her character concludes she is a narc.

        1. jessrnny says:

          I’ve been watching RW since her Man in the moon debut. I was @8th grade. She’s always been a happy person and a pleasure. I think her father is an MD and her mother has three PhD. Her mother has always taught her to stand up for what she believes in. I could make an argument she’s a Super Empath irl.

          1. MB says:

            Jess, ‘Man in the Moon’ I don’t even know how many times I watched that movie! Crying my eyes out.

  13. Mary says:

    Hi HG

    I am just really curious to find out if my perception about Trinny Woodall is correct..
    I like her flamboyant spirit…. and innovatives bold ways.. but i think she is a very “nice and refined, unscrupulous” narcissist…

    I am i correct ?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are

      1. Caroline R says:

        I used to think it very poor behaviour when Trinny and Susannah would get ‘grabby’ with women’s bodies.
        They’d only just met the women many times, and didn’t ask permission.
        No one would have said “yes” anyway.
        I don’t remember them apologising either, they’d make the women feel uncomfortable for objecting.

        I’m sensitive to boundary violations of the body.
        So, mid-ranger sense of entitlement and boundary-trampling behaviour being enacted before our eyes?

        Thank you for the clarification on that point HG.

      2. Mary says:

        Wow! I am starting to recognize the traits…

        Thanks to you HG

        1. Caroline R says:

          Mary
          That was a good question about Trinny.
          Thanks for bringing it up.
          I’m going to look at episodes of their shows on YouTube when I’ve finished my study homework this weekend.
          I’m sure I’ll see things with new eyes.

          1. Mary says:

            I started to see Trinny because it is always on my FB newsfeed, advertising her Trinny makeup, ( might be a good makeup, i don’ t use much) and i started to see her antics .. and that is what i thought her a narcissist.

            I have HG approval 😊

            i am.pretty happy as i can now recognise the traits.

            Yet, i feel so dumb as i am still in denial with the narc i am involved with .. trying to escape so many times, but i hav3n’t succed it yet, his net is pretty wide and efficient… he will not let me go …..
            his hoovering and fake future too tempting…

  14. K says:

    S1:E2
    School drop off: Jane is parked and watching Ziggy mingle with the other children. Madeline pulls up next to Jane, blocking the road. (entitlement, lack of empathy)

    MMM: Hey mama bear. (Pet; Jane is an object and belongs to Madeline)

    Jane: Hi.

    MMM: I’m going to yoga class. You wanna join me?

    Jane: I would love to, but I have a job interview.

    MMM: Oh, wow. (Jane looks back at Ziggy) Don’t worry about him, honey. He’s gonna be fine. I promise. (Madeline appears to be caring and decent; The Mid Range Narcissist’s Seductive Mindset (And What Is Really Happening)

    (The driver behind MMM honks her horn; this is challenge fuel and Madeline deploys the Second Line of Defence: Distract and Deflect by issuing verbal abuse)

    MMM: Get laid, bitch. (scoffs) See you later. (Madeline draws proximate fuel from Jane and thought fuel from the driver behind her)

    Yoga Class: MMM is whispering to Celeste during class (entitlement, lack of empathy, lack of boundaries) so the Yoga Instructor approaches Madeline.

    YI: Yoga is a time for quiet reflection. (This offends Madeline’s sense of entitlement and is perceived as challenge fuel so she deploys the Second Line of Defence: Distract and Deflect by becoming hostile)

    MMM: Uh, yeah. I know. I don’t like to be touched.

    After class the Yoga Instructor mentions a session where the rules are more relaxed. Our perimenopausal class.
    (this is offends Madeline and is seen as challenge fuel so she deploys the Second Line of Defence)

    MMM: That won’t be necessary. I won’t be coming back. (she walks away) Okay, you will never believe what she just said to me.

    Celeste: What?

    MMM: Here. (Madeline gives the YI the finger) What? No, here (she gives two middle fingers).

    Celeste: (chuckles) You’re so pretty when you are mad. (MMM draws both positive and negative proximate fuel from two different appliances: Celeste and the YI; contrast)

    Celeste and MMM are at the bar drinking wine and Renata threatens Madeline. (N v N; this is battle for control fuel and assertion of superiority)

    Renata: (whispering) do not fuck with my daughter’s birthday. (Renata’s threat is wrapped up in hate/challenge fuel, she asserts superiority by walking away)

    MMM: What a cunt. (Madeline counters with verbal abuse/challenge fuel)

    Renata: Excuse me? (Indignant/challenge fuel; the question is an affront to MMM’s notion of superiority and lack of accountability)

    MMM: Why don’t you get fucked? (back and forth it goes)

    Renata: Wow. (Renata maintains her facade)

    (Renata and MMM get proximate fuel from each other and everyone else at the bar)

  15. K says:

    S1:E1
    Orientation day. MMM and Jane are walking towards the school.

    MMM: Okay, Gabby is such a gossip. We don’t like her. (projection, smearing and notice how she uses the word “We”. Madeline has made Jane an extension of herself)

    When MMM sees Celeste, notice how she talks to Celeste about trivial things while Jane just stands aside watching (triangulation).

    MMM: I know, my new dress, my new shoes, my new friend Jane Chapman (she puts her hand on Jane’s back which appears to be a kind gesture but denotes ownership and dominance).

    Celeste introduces herself: Hi. I’m Celeste.

    Jane: Hi.

    MMM interrupts and brings the spotlight back to herself: She came to my rescue when I was trying to save young lives. It’s a whole story. I’m gonna kill Abigail. That’s her son, Ziggy right there, who’s playing with Chloe and the boys.

    (conversational derailment and Madeline is a heroine, that’s the dirty angel midrange facade in action, Jane doesn’t get a word in edgewise)

    When Nathan and Bonnie approach, introductions are made and MMM reaches over and picks up Bonnie’s necklace and states: Oh, I love this. (poor boundary recognition, entitlement)

    Bonnie: Oh, thank you. I made it in Peru.

    MMM: of course you did. (MMM’s words and tone denote contempt)

    Bonnie: We were saying we should get Skye and Chloe together for a playdate. They’re half-sisters and they pretty much never see each other. It’s ridiculous. (this request is seen as challenge fuel and Madeline deploys the First Line of Defence: Denial)

    MMM: Are they? I–am I missing the math?

    Bonnie: Abby is Chloes’s half sister, so we just…

    Nathan: Right. (awkward silence)

    (MMM deploys the Second Line of Defence: Distract and Deflect by issuing a short Silent Treatment, drawing fuel while maintaining superiority and control)

    MMM: Of course. Just have Nathan call me.

    1. Caroline R says:

      K
      You’ve done a wonderful job walking us through each scene and pointing out the various behaviours to build your case.
      Everything is made so clear by your informative explanation.
      Well done!
      Thank you!

      1. K says:

        Thank you Caroline R!
        There are so many examples of MMM’s narcissism on the show that I can’t keep up.

  16. Elke says:

    I voted standard empath. She cares for her family, daughters and hubby even tho she made mistakes( the dirty side of her) like sleeping with other man, she helps Jane from the moment she met her and belives that Ziggi is innocent there is no shadow of doubt about it, she is a good friends to Celest and feels do bad she didnt relised what was her friend’s life like. She could be magnet emath as her hubby says she attracts weird people.

  17. Twisted Heart says:

    My first thought was narcissistic but not a narc. She seems to have a good heart.

    Then I thought Dirty Super Empath Saviour/Geyser combo.
    Especially since the principal made a comment about Chloe (her youngest daughter) inheriting the need to save everyone else’s problems.

    But then I started waivering towards mid range narc or maybe even greater.
    When she tells her husband she loves him and he is the one it really comes across as fake or it might just be bad acting.
    I don’t get why she came up with the plan to lie about Perry being pushed. Just tell the truth and let the group decide for themselves how they each want to handle it.
    She’s bitchy and over dramatic but she would do anything for her friends. Maybe because they’re her lieutenants.
    Her speech about everything being an illusion might be some insight about her level of awareness so that’s why I’m considering greater.
    And in that case Ed might be a Super Empath.

    I wonder if the cast has studied up on empaths and narcs beforehand because they all portray these complex personalities so well.

  18. misstasia says:

    I voted Standard Empath / dirty Empath. She ended the affair she started out of boredom? More like out of lack of passion and desire which she craved. Ed is more of a normal guy who waits for the woman to initiate and that is not what she wanted. Madeline likes the take-charge kind of guy like her ex and the man she had an affair with she ended it out of guilt because she is an empath after all.

    1. WokeAF says:

      HG, have you watched the British fiction (I hope lol) series “Years and Years”? Takes us through time with Trump having nuked the Chinese , and basically is pointing out what’s going on and where life on Earth is potentially headed-as it’s spinning into sociopathic darkness.

      It’s also chock full of narcs. Very entertaining and scary. Funny parts too.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        No I have not seen that, WAF.

        1. WokeAF says:

          Oh, it’s so delightful! I mean utterly abysmal, but so many funny bits and very intelligent , well imho (in my humble opinion)

          1. WokeAF says:

            HG. Emma Thompson plays a greater narc Prime Minister

            not sure if that makes it more curious to you or less
            But I’m LOVING it

  19. Twisted Heart says:

    I HAVE NO IDEA!!!

  20. jessrnny says:

    i have trouble deciding if it was Narc or Empathic traits that caused her to lie and protect the group rather than facing the fire. I would have definitely told the truth in that moment. Now they all live in fear and she carries buckets of guilt around. Renata the Narc, and Jane the Normal seem to be the least affected. Fitting.

    1. alexissmith2016 says:

      Interesting view. I would see Jane as perhaps justifying it to herself that whilst illegal, it was morally okay and therefore managed her guilt in that way. Cannot wait for the master to tell us about them all.

    2. WokeAF says:

      I think it was panic 😆

      1. jessrnny says:

        Perhaps initially but why doesn’t she come around..

        1. WokeAF says:

          I know right . I’d have confessed immediately

  21. K says:

    MMM is the quintessential Dirty Angel MMRN and that is how I am voting. I will post evidence of her blatant narcissism later on.

    1. alexissmith2016 says:

      i’m so glad you posted this comment K. I wholeheartedly agree with this and love your evaluation.

      1. K says:

        Thank you alexissmith2016!

  22. Dearest HG: I assess Madeleine to be Normal with a high Narcissistic trait of entitlement. And from my experience in life, for some reason, women that are Blonde do have a higher sense of entitlement for some reason. So nothing surprising there. Good casting. She believes everything should go her way as long as she puts the work in, and she decides how much work she needs to put in and what type of work she needs to put in, but life is more complex than that. She felt entitled to chose a man for safety and downplay the fact that she did not feel intimate passion for that man. A slight lack of empathy but also understandable because she was a single mother and she had empathy for her child and wanted a safe environment for her child and herself, and Ed fit the bill. And very importantly to her, Ed adored her. Entitlement. And that feeling of entitlement led her to then become a sort of Dirty Normal Marriage Breaker with the Play writer/director. When she almost lost her husband because he discovered her adultery, her narcissistic trait of entitlement went into retreat, and her Normal side came back to the forefront to save her marriage, and to face the fact after growth and reflection, that she really does lover her husband in all ways. She pledges to never be unfaithful to him, and gladly renews their new wedding vows together with her children in tow, that she also loves.

  23. jessrnny says:

    I’ve always thought she was a Super Empath. The popular fiery pistol. She can’t let injustice go unchecked and reacts fiercely. Strong narcissistic and empathic traits/reactions. Confident in herself she advocates for anything she feels needs protection or help.

    She escaped her marriage and started over. She influences people especially her ex causing him aggravation and discomfort. She chose a Normal for her second marriage in order to protect herself from hurt. She is able to be friends with her replacement and triangulation is mostly ineffective against her.

    Dirty empath traits. She had an affair out of boredom and kept it hidden. Was likely seduced by a narcissist. She felt remorse for this but still did it. When it came to light she accepted responsibility for her actions and made effort to fix her marriage.

  24. KellyD says:

    I say super empath because she exhibits caring but also a strength and spark in the face of a narcissist. She’s filthy, too lmao Dirty dirty girl

    1. WokeAF says:

      Yup a DEMB! Dirty empath marriage breaker! Muah ha haha

      1. KellyD says:

        Yup the very one Lol

  25. WokeAF says:

    Ok who voted Upper Greater Narcissist ! Hg they win a free set of your new paperbacks , please 😉

  26. Caroline R says:

    MMM is the archetype of all of my (ex) N-‘best friends’.
    The same beauty, intelligence, confidence, driven, restless energy, and need to control.
    Everyone else is part of her entourage.
    Even her husband.
    My N-friends all married empaths who had great residual benefits, and were good men. One husband became increasingly crushed over time, and would scurry like a whipped dog at the command of his wife.
    It was dismaying to see.

    Physical affection shown to him appeared wooden and lacked passion. (She told me that she wasn’t comfortable with him seeing her naked, and she would get changed in private).
    Much like MMM and Ed’s awkward attempts at passionate, uninhibited sex in the kitchen.
    It was cringeful.

    One husband slept more nights than not in the spare room, in silent protest against his wife’s smothering control. Much like a teenage daughter refusing to eat in quiet protest of the smothering control of her N-mother.
    It was dismaying to see.

    She coerced him into having a fourth child with her, despite the house not being big enough, despite the youngest child already acting out from needing attention, despite her husband being in the middle of his nursing degree and money being therefore very tight.
    They needed another car once the fourth child came.
    They had to move house once the fourth child came.
    She didn’t care.
    “Hahaha! It’ll all work out!”, she’d say.
    Another phrase of hers that irritated me was “it takes a village to raise a child”, and “I don’t need to use birth control, how ever many children we have are meant to be”.
    Zero accountability where she was concerned, and much entitlement was demonstrated.

    She didn’t care about how much this stressed him.
    He probably felt used.
    Like a sperm donor.
    It makes sense why he slept apart from her after that as his feelings were ridden roughshod over.
    Zero empathy from his wife the mid-range N.

    She loved to monopolize my time, and was always in a state of decrying the drama that constantly surrounded her. It was both smothering and draining.
    She was a force of nature, and would flirt with everyone.

    MMM’s husband Ed is made of more Narcissistic stuff, so their marital dynamic is different to my ex-N-friends’.
    Ed perceptively comments to MMM’s daughter that her mother’s natural setting is ‘restless’, or words to that effect, in season one.

    I think that Madeline’s an upper mid-range N.

  27. Alexissmith2016 says:

    Interesting! I see her as an angel with a dirty face. I fail to see any true empathy here – it’s all about her!

    Maybe I need to be moved to the front of the class and pay more attention.

    1. Alexissmith2016 says:

      Her only saving grace is that she did end the affair, and doesn’t seem to triangulate between her friends but it is a tv show…

  28. Presque Vu says:

    She is a Saviour Super Empath

  29. WokeAF says:

    Madeleine –
    Voted: Super Empath ,Saviour
    cadre , also DEMB (narc traits of infidelity & also selfishness – both she and the guy were married))

    Reasons:
    -Both strong narcissistic and empathic traits.
    -i know kids raised by narcs and that ain’t them. -Those are secure, well raised kids.
    -That’s a healthy family unit that has problems but comes together and solves them. Not a matrinarc family.
    -Genuine empathy but also sometimes trouble with taming narc traits to see POV of others, but ultimately can see her way through

    She and Perry (LGN) were the first obvious ones for me. I’ve never seen a super empath before but within the first episode of the first season I knew I was looking at one. At first I thought magnet bc I relate to her to some degree but it became quickly clear she’s a saviour dominantly.

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