Conoscere Il Narcisista

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472 Comments

  1. Hi all , just read through this post and comments was away for a few weeks.
    I don’t mean to cause any offence but I have a headache after reading the comments
    A lot of squabbling and dissecting about nothing
    Very boring reading for a monolingual person
    If this keeps up the translations would be complete in the year 2100
    I honestly think HG would be better to get a team of professionals outside to do this

    Just my observation

    Kiki

      1. Miaowing here HG
        😊
        Seriously I know everyone means well and fair dues to those of you with helping , but it’s going in loops and loops of dissecting

        I’m obviously biased as I haven’t any other languages to help with 🙁
        There needs to be a structural do it approach less dissecting the what’s etc believe me as an Empath I love the dissecting of emotional matters but a language project just needs concrete movement to develop

        Again I mean no offence everyone

        Kiki❤️

        1. Kiki, no offense taken on my part at least, I agree with you. I’m not a dissecting mind, I’m more synthetic. My gut tells me all of this enthusiasm will fade off as soon as we start actually translating so don’t worry. Meanwhile just ignore the thread. I do ignore a lot of threads that I don’t feel identified with, like the ones about co-parenting for example. Not that I don’t think they aren’t important, but I am not a parent, so…

    1. Kiki

      I don’t know you, we haven’t been interacting on this blog before (I think) – just some info for you : HG seems to have some professionals on board, and professional translation is very expensive – you can see from the Project Mercury post what the scale is that HG is aiming for. Readers who are involved here do this for free and several of us, too, are professionals who would charge accordingly if it wasn’t for a good cause. Let us have our analyses over “nothing”, the linguistic debates are part of our reward.

      No need to read here if it bores you. But you commented all the same, so perhaps there’s something that you can contribute. Don’t feel left out, this thread has English only commenters and I for one like talking to them too.

      1. That’s no problem LC , I have been here a few years , I come and go sometimes spend a lot of time on the blog but when things get super busy I might not be here for weeks at a time .

        Totally understand your point I try to read quite a few threads when I’m here love the banter ❤️ but your right this one isn’t for me
        I would love to contribute but due to my insane time consuming job I would be lying if I said I had the time

        Fair play to everyone involved

        Kiki

        1. Kiki

          “Wow everyone great work
          Afraid I cannot help at all languages were my poorest subjects at school. “

          Your comment made me think of my English teacher who told me that I was crap at English (my second language) and should drop the subject. (I did.)

          Thinking of teachers I wish again (as I do often) that HGs info had been out there during my school days. This is not the place to bash narcissist teachers though because HG is one of the best teachers I’ve had…

          1. Hi LC

            Yes my teachers were fine but I veered more towards science and maths , I love chemistry. I just couldn’t concentrate on languages at all so I struggled with it big time .

            Kiki❤️

  2. To the multilingual team

    I only saw this comment ( I’m quoting a snippet) from EB now, already this thread is getting way too unwieldy.

    EBs suggestion:

    “HG has put a lot of effort in creating his own terminology which is part of his legacy. IMO, investing time in creating a terminology database for other languages is very important and not only to ensure consistency.
    All these terms and expressions will be used for his present and future work. If poorly chosen, his translated work will not be properly understood by new readers who have not read his original work. Many professional translators do not take/have the time to this.

    In order to be able to work as a team, I thought about creating a Glossary in a Spreadsheet with access granted to translators/collaborators.

    I am sure there are different possibilities to do this. One of them is Google Docs.
    Google Docs documents are stored on Google drive (not on the owner’s local computer). The owner creates a document and decides who he will share his file(s) with. It will not be a Public file. Among other things, the Owner can prevent editors from changing access and… ”

    I think this is a superb idea, EB.

    Terminology is the key – we’re actually all agreed on that.

    And there’s actually no better help for a translator to have the community provide input – not least because translation is language art in its own right.

    E B

    I’d contribute to such a spread sheet, and I think this could really work.

    HG said he’d mail instructions soon, so maybe he’s already got a solution but if not I can image this could work really well.

    Here is one more thing to think about:

    As we can see from this thread already projects such as these can ruffle egos. I also saw this during the Harry Potter translation project. Egos will show – this is normal and to be expected. Best not to get too upset about it.

    If the community is involved in discussing the terminology then – to avoid too much frustration and people walking out – there needs to be clarity upfront about how the final decision for a term is reached.

    HG could give a specific person the authority to choose the most fitting term after discussions are closed.

    Or the community chooses the most fitting term by polling the best solution after discussions are closed.

    Polls are tricky and misleading if they include terms that are linguistically not OK and if people poll who have no sufficient knowledge of the target language.

    It could be done like this : the poll could include everything that the community suggests after the debate is closed. The person appointed by HG makes the decision which term is to be used using the poll results as a guide. Reasons could be given if the top poll result is rejected.

    Any remaining ego storms will blow over eventually :)

      1. HG: I thought that was beyond discussion – except you probably need linguistic advice as to what the best term is in the languages you’re not familiar with? And if communities are involved, they like to squabble. I’m just sharing experience from a translation project I was involved in to raise some points to think about. If everything is assigned to one person as it is in Italian you don’t get the problem obviously. ..

    1. LC, I’m gonna adopt the humble approach to this: I decline to offer my opinion on any term the translators of another language that I do not know will decide. For two reasons: 1) I cannot discern whether one term will be more accurate than another if I don’t know the language 2) I expect the same respect from other participants when we agree on a term in the target language I can work with. If anyone is free to comment anything without knowing, this, I’m afraid, will slow down the work and create confusion. I am on board for team working, but each team must work with their own language. Imagine the Russian team, which will be working with a completely different alphabet. Would I be able to contribute any opinions on the words they choose? I wouldn’t even dare say anything! The idea of the spreadsheet is a good one, but I would limit it to the members of each team and not to everyone in general as it can become counterproductive. Imagine you spend three weeks deciding on one term in German, finally you got one, and then I read it and say: “I found in the dictionary that this term is associated with such and such and I don’t think we should adopt it.” Wouldn’t you feel like killing me slowly at that moment? 😂

      1. SP

        Yes, I totally agree with all your points – would also limit the spreadsheet to a team that addresses a single language but it’s an approach that could work not just for German which is why addressed all. I’d do polls for the best term with a wider group though. If that is something HG wants to do, that is, I’m just raising some points to think about.

        1. LC, that sounds good. I have more problems with who is gonna be allowed to make judgments here after we do the whole work, not during. I’m not afraid of working with other translators, I’m afraid of the non-professional opinions. And I arrived to a Solomonic solution: whoever has a complaint about one of the translations already finished, will only be allowed to question someone’s work by sending out his/her own translation to be compared with the former one so that HG decides which one he likes the best. Otherwise this could be a constant cherry-picking on isolated words, without taking into consideration the whole context. I think it’s fair, because translating is a very time-consuming work and it is not nice to question the translator once he/she has already done the dirty work. Just out of professional courtesy.

          1. SP,

            With a platform like that which I suggested (i.e. gitlab or github) this is relatively easy to take care of. This whole project can be structured in small pieces, each article and each language can be a (sub)project of its own, rights can be assigned to each user for each project (read only or read-write), anybody with read rights can take a look and make suggestions, proposing their own version, but there will be only one main version for a language and very few will have rights to make changes in the main version. The glossary could be just a simple list in the English version, having separate translations in each language, as separate files, so, for example, the Italian and German translators won’t have to wait for each other or interfere with each other in any way when editing their language glossary version. And so on.

            Many things can be achieved with careful assignment of work pieces and rights of reviewing and editing for each piece, I think…

            Standardization is also really important (and I’m thinking of process standardization, not translation, which each translator should be able to do as they see fit). But, ideally, the process should be the same for everyone involved, as clear and simple as possible, regardless of language, expertise, timezone and so on. This way, if somebody quits at some point, anybody can take the place and continue with relative ease instead of having to take lots of time trying to figure out where the other has left.

            This seems to be a really big project, it’s not translating a single slim book, it’s about years and years of work on HG’s side, and he’s been quite prolific, I might say… 🙂

            Question – Does anybody know exactly what platform the Harry Potter translators were using?

            HG,
            If you have already decided for the platform to use, maybe it would be a good idea to start giving it a try with a few people, see if they like it, if they can get used to it, what problems might arise and so on. This way, when others will join, many issues will have already been taken care of.

            And a small remark – I’m not sure I will work on this project, first because I did not volunteer yet, second because I’m not sure my expertise is needed, third because I already have enough demands on my time. But, SP, there’s no better incentive for me to work on this project than the thought that I would be able to work with you (and hopefully others with same mindset as yours).

          2. Abe,
            “With a platform like that which I suggested (i.e. gitlab or github) this is relatively easy to take care of.”
            That sounds great.

          3. “But, SP, there’s no better incentive for me to work on this project than the thought that I would be able to work with you (and hopefully others with same mindset as yours).” Abe, right back at you!

          4. Abe

            This sounds great – also the trial run…
            The HP translation project was years ago but I’ll see if I can find it and get back to you.

          5. Abe

            The HP site has been taken off the net but I found a contact, wrote to them and am waiting to hear back. While I was checking this out I saw that ca. 3000 ppl contributed (this is just one language) – while they were at it an online glossary evolved with detailed and carefully crafted explanations of terms and their backgrounds.

            I think that this kind of project will attract many new readers. First because of the content, second because involving readers creatively is attractive in its own right.

            I think a detailed glossary is probably also very interesting for an English speaking readership.

          6. LC,

            If possible, please try and find out not only what platform they used, but also as much as possible about the process they used. The process details might be even more important than the platform, since for sure they encountered many many problems along the way and they solved them somehow.

            There’s no need to reinvent the wheel if somebody already did it…

          7. Abe

            “There’s no need to reinvent the wheel if somebody already did it…”

            Well stated… Would you be ok if I emailed HG the contact (once and if I get it) so he can pass it on to you and you can ask the right questions? – it’s obvious that you’re the expert here?

            The problems I saw (and raised here) were from the perspective of a simple user, not from behind the scenes. The way they did it was that anyone could contribute, only those who really made a visible effort (didn’t use Google translate) could then download the entire finished translation after it was completed. There was a minimum you had to contribute and you could hand in as much as you wanted. You never found out if your translation was used for the finished product.

            If I remember correctly your first effort was ranked according to the quality you provided. If you produced a certain number of pieces, 2 or 3 I think, and these all ranked high, you could sign up for quality review – which meant that you yourself could rank the quality of a given piece by another translator. The rankings / reviews were double blind. I’m not so sure anymore but I think you got two rankings from two different people. The rankings were like school grades: A publishable, B very good to E start again and please forget about Google translate. The more input you provided the more responsibility you could take on behind the scenes – but I don’t know much about the way those processes were handled because I only translated and reviewed.

            The discussion board had wonderful threads about the translated content, many a poll for solutions, but also many a thread about translators complaining about reviewers’ expertise, as in how dare they give me a B when I’m clearly an A.

            The latter is perhaps not so much an issue here because here the author himself is involved, he’s boss, his authority and decisions are respected (or we wouldn’t be part of it in the first place).

            In the HP project Rowling was not involved.

          8. LC,

            If HG has already chosen the tools and methodology, I see no need to do this. I’m not sure what the status is on this front.

            If he hasn’t yet, than we could pursue this line of discussion, if he also agrees. But I would need input from him and from a translator, because I don’t know what is needed or what would be the most relevant questions to ask from the end user’s point of view. I can most probably understand the technicalities behind though, which is of course helpful and needed, but not sufficient.

            The process that you have described, with double blind reviews and a grading and ranking system seems to me a bit convoluted for the size of the teams that I assume will work on HG’s stuff (which I guess will be just a handful of people for each language). This does not mean though that the software the HP community used cannot be tailored for what is needed here…

          9. All,

            Another thing I’d like to add on privacy and security.
            It might become necessary to start exchanging emails at some point. Or maybe the platform will allow email exchanges and it won’t be possible to turn that off.

            Due to the sensitive nature of the project at hand, I suggest everybody who gets involved in this should create a new, separate email address especially for this, and use it exclusively for this purpose.
            Maybe even a different user name than the one they have here, on the blog.

            When such data is shared with so many people (and this project might get shared with a lot of people), there is always the risk of a security breach. Your email might get into the wrong hands.
            You should be prepared at any time to get rid of that email address and create a new one if needed.

            Also, do not share personal identifiable information with anybody! Not even with HG, I might add.

            It might be a pain in the ass to proceed as described, but it is safer…

          10. Again, this is all under consideration as part of the project, but thank you for your input nonetheless, Abe, it is always sensible to ensure precautions are taken with regard to information and identity. I take the issue of confidentiality very seriously something I was discussing with my lawyers only this morning.

          11. This is good to know, HG, and I’m really glad you have already been thinking about this.
            Thank you.

            In the end though, it is each user’s responsibility to take care of their own data. And when engaging in discussions with each other you will not be able to watch over them anymore.
            I think it is better for each of them to take care from the beginning to approach this in a careful and sensible manner.
            Enthusiasm will be high, I guess, and mistakes can be made by over-enthusiastic people…

          12. Wise words Abe and not that I am suggesting that this is the case with the gallant team of translators, but I always advise people never to interact with one another off blog. Some people have failed to adhere to this and found themselves on the receiving end of a narcissist, despite being warned. Only last week I had to deal with a reader who had found themselves on the receiving end of the manipulative behaviour of a Mid Range Narcissist and realised too late after interacting with the individual off blog.

          13. I have no credentials to help in translations – not my thing. But a HUGE applause for everybody who has offered to help HG spread the word!

            I think you need a translation CRM system that allows one master user and numerous junior users. Master user of course is HG.

            Each person has their own log in details. No need for emails to be sent – it’s all discussed on a notes section on each book to translate. People can remain anonymous, HG oversees all notes as the master user. All Italian translators remain in the Italian sector – all Germans in the German and so on. HG dictates permissions – so complete control over his work and who has access to it.

            A normal CRM system such as ACT or Goldvision (although these can be specific to sector) for eg could work (But there must be translator ones out there). When there are a lot of clients (In HG’s case books are the clients) they can be separated – and each book updated with a flow chart of notes – who wrote what when. It’s all precise. HG can nip in and out of countries as and when he so chooses to answer questions and follow the progress made – daily or hourly if he wanted to.

            Two of the most important things 1) is protecting HG’s work, identity, expertise and lexicon.
            2) is protecting each translator and still maintaining no contact off the blog for safety purposes.

            *I wouldn’t use spreadsheets – you have to think of GDPR also. CRM system will keep everything secure and legal.
            *This is an investment – worth every penny for complete, confidential, legal and safe control.
            *A CRM system holds hundreds of clients, you have hundreds of books. You can sub-categorise into Countries – list all your books – appoint translators with varying permissions – and monitor the whole lot in real time.

            Maybe this is already what Abe is talking about, apologies if so Abe.
            Good Luck All :)

          14. PV,

            No, I was not thinking about a CRM system.
            So it’s very good that you pointed this out, it might be better suited for translating than what I suggested.

            I am talking from my area of expertise, which is software development. Code is text, so developers have long time searched for good ways to work with plain text in a collaborative, secure and easy to manage way. I think they’ve been doing a good job, especially lately, to establish best practices about this.
            In programming, every piece of information is versioned. I write something today, I can store all differences from existing code in a separate place, somebody else can review, suggest changes and when all good, it gets merged to the main repository. The history is always kept, so everybody knows at any time what has changed, when, why and by whom. If needed, changes can be reverted easily.
            This way of working can save your ass many times when problems arise with a particular version…

            However, I’m not sure it’s best suited for translations. I can see value for translations too, but I am no expert so I cannot say for sure if all this complex way of working is worth having.
            Another issue is that code is plain text (no formatting), while HG’s articles and books sometimes contain images and some formatting (bullets, spaces, bold text and so on), which is somehow described with (probably) quite simple metadata, but still this might be too much to handle for somebody who has never had to touch such metadata.
            On the other hand, plain text is also an advantage, since many tools out there can open and display simple text files and show differences between them, while there aren’t many tools that can do this on a (for example) Word file. Anybody with a keyboard and notepad can edit a plain text file.

            Anyway, I don’t want to get everybody bored with these technical details 🙂

            What’s important is that the best tool for the job is chosen, considering the level of complexity of the task, the need for easy navigation of file revisions, the ease of making reviews, and of course privacy and project management concerns (who’s working on what, why, what are the priorities, tracking of current status, when will something most probably be ready).

          15. Abe my son is a techy genius, I hear you. Especially about writing a specific bespoke programme which tracks users and work done, by whom and when ( I agree 100% that saves arses all the time!). An area of expertise I’m jealous of Abe! Expert you are!

            Maybe the CRM System could work and these are my reasons why. (Plus you can hit the ground running without a time delay in platform coding designing etc).

            Each book is a project
            CRM systems manage projects
            I use one on a daily basis to manage over 100 x multi million pound projects.

            The CRM will allow complete project management- project progress to be monitored, start, finish, on time, translators names on projects, notes to discuss and date/time stamped when changes are added or made. Subdivisions-countries, it will show all completed projects, highlight all those scripts that need attention in red (so HG doesn’t have to sift through the many notes if he doesn’t have time). A central location on the CRM holds all projects(books) and at a glance he knows what needs attention.

            Stats are offered to keep to target deadline or to simply monitor the time taken to translate. I’m a bit of a geek I like stats/graphs/pie charts/flow charts. This indicates a realistic timescale to completion.

            Each user can only see what HG allows. All can see notes so ideas/discussions can be had. These notes are kept on each individual project date timed and user stamped.

            It’s methodical. It’s precise. It keeps all users safe.

            I’ve used ACT and Goldvision, and although it’s a sales and marketing platform, I use it mostly to manage my projects… or quite frankly I’d be fucked!

            It’s down to HG. Whatever he decides to do will work I’m sure. Whatever CRM platform is used (if at all), it’s easy to control once set up. Only downside I can see in project management is the cost of the CRM. Worth every penny if all books are translated world wide and the reach to those who REALLY need HG’s help get it. That’s the reward.

            Thanks Abe for explaining your thoughts 🙂

          16. PV,

            Such systems already exist, no need to write them from scratch. You can check gitlab.com or github.com to see some features. But they are software development-oriented, hence plain text management and a bit techy, but very versatile, especially the paid versions. They just need to be configured appropriately.

            Your CRM suggestion sounds like being oriented towards people less tech-savvy, which is probably better suited for translating.

            I’m sure HG will choose the best approach, with minimal costs and high productivity. 🙂

          17. Abe

            I think quality control is absolutely necessary, but I’m sure HG has this covered.

            I think the way they did it then was quite smart though, since nobody was an “appointed” translator as such, meaning anyone could claim they were good, and this had to be verified. If you appoint some professionals to oversee the process however you can trust them to know what they’re doing. For the HP project they didn’t have all that so two readers was the right thing to do I think.

            Double blind just means it was anonymous, you didn’t know who checked your work und you didn’t know whose work you were checking. This will be the case for our situation too I guess, since you and HG already had your exchange about security and anonymity.

            As for the “grades”, this was important because of copyright issues. The motivation for many readers was to get hold of the entire book as soon as possible and before the official translation was out. Many readers depended on the translation. So they scraped together all the English they had to produce their piece of translation that would then allow them to access the German version. This was why the organisers were so strict about machine translation. Only if you had made a visible effort (it could be a rubbish effort but it had to be an effort) could you get access to the entire document. So a C meant you were in but it wasn’t good enough to be used for publication. E meant try again.

            I have no idea if HG has this kind of audience participation in mind as well or if he wants to encourage only professional translators.

            I’m not actually sure how much it would help to talk to the HP people, remember, this was ages ago, so the software side of things will have improved in leaps and bounds.

            Can imagine that many of the technical problems they were facing are laughable now.

            People will be people though, so the social side of things might not have changed so much!

            I will forward the contact to you or whomever via HG only if I get a prompt (provided I get an answer from them …)

            I’m definitely also thinking we should wait for instructions now – well I certainly will, I have no clue about how to set up content management systems…

        2. *** it’s a suggesting to avoid what I see is already happening. Of course HG may have a better idea but that’s what I could think of to be fair with everybody.

    2. LC,

      Thank you for you input. I have seen your other comments but not sure if all of them.
      If you don’t mind, I would prefer to wait until we have HG’s instructions because I am having difficulty following all the comments at the moment.

      Since I agree with your suggestion about looking for established terms in the psychology field, I shared what I had found.

      My suggestions are just that. I will not be involved in deciding what final term should be used. It is not my intention to upset anybody and hope nobody leaves.

      1. E. B.

        Fair enough. I think I might have worded things too dramatically. Obviously HG decides how he will use our input and what kind of input he wants. My point was that we can see it already now that such projects upset a few people – I wanted to draw attention to that (that this is to be expected
        ) – and that it’s good to think about it beforehand how drama is best avoided. That’s about it…

    3. LC,
      just out of interest. We’ve talked alot about the terminology, but how would you like the title of the blog itself to be translated? I like Verstehe den Narzissten, perhaps even Erkenne den Narzissten. I guess the literal Kenne den Narzissten is a possibility but does not convey the same meaning.

      1. Hi Désiree

        Great you’re back. I’ve been thinking about it too and couldn’t come up with anything good.

        I like “Erkenne den Narzissten”, sounds a bit wooden though, and there is the gender problem.

        How about:

        “Narzissmus erkennen”? (retains the gerund as well)

        There is a German blog and video channel (it’s actually not a dodgy one, the work is original, all sources are credited and there is also a link to HGs site for recommended reading) and that’s called “Narzissmus verstehen” – meaning that title is taken.

        We need to check the existing site names too I suppose…

        I think it needs something more juicy than Narzissmus erkennen

        Maybe something like

        Dem Narzissmus ins Auge sehen

        Mit den Augen des Narzissten

        Das Auge des Narzissmus

        Just fooling around….

        1. LC,
          I also like “Erkenne den Narzissten” because I view that as the most important thing to take away from HGs work and then understanding what that means as the second most important part. Since I always assumed HG to be the narcissist in question with regards to the title of his blog, I think choosing the masculine version would be okay. Generally, I would stick with “Der Narzisst” and “Der Empath” unless indicated otherwise in the entry or book. The reason for that is that most blogs take this approach and while I am not inclined to opt for something just because others, whose work is inferior to HGs, have done so, it makes the text much more readable than the alternative and people did not seem to take issue with having mostly the male version in texts. When it comes to adressing the different schools and cadres of Empaths, it might be perceived a bit differently. Personally, I dislike reading NarzistIn, Narzist*in, Narzist/in or EmpathIn, Empath*in, Empath/in, they’re all “stören den Redefluss” to me and add nothing of additional value. To me, it just looks wrong and I would deem it unnecessary.
          You stated an additional concern with regards to political correctness, given that this genderinclusive “trend” was started by the left leaning media. The way I see it, HG is far from PC and I remember him stating that some readers find his work too severe for them to read. My feeling would be that if someone truly were to draw the line at genderinclusive speech and possibly be offended with an all masculine approach to these nouns, they could also be one of the people who can’t stomach HGs work either way.
          So generally, I’d go masculine unless indicated otherwise, perhaps with the exception of the schools and cadres of Empaths, if we are to assume that there would be a predominately female readership and they would find it easier to identify themselves with these articles if provided with the female noun. Although that might be debatable, I know it would not concern me, for example.

      2. Desirée,
        I am really glad to see you are back!
        Like I said to LC, in my case I’d rather wait until I hear from HG to work with the team.

  3. It is inspiring to see so many people sharing their time and skills to assist so that others can benefit from this work. To put aside whatever personal feelings one has regarding HG or narcissists in general in order to have the work itself be the focus and to be a part of having it reach those who would otherwise not be able to benefit speaks volumes about the character of the people involved. Not everyone is involved in this particular project of translation, but we can look on with pride while contributing in whatever other areas that we are able to such as spreading the word and providing support to one another. What a community. Hats off to HG’s for creating this place and to all of you who make it something I continue to be proud to be a part of.

  4. Thought about possiblities for the most difficult to translate terms:

    Contagion Empath – Angesteckter Empath (send help.)

    Proximate Fuel – Unmittellbarer Treibstoff
    as opposed to
    Thought Fuel – Gedanklicher Treibstoff

    Hoover by Proxy – Stellvertrender Sog
    This one really shows how Staubsaugen does not cut it as it is too close to trivial household chores whereas Sog is much more menacing.

    Shelf Intimate Partner Secondary Source – Intimpartner Sekundärquelle im Regal

    Candidate Intimate Partner Secondary Source – Intimpartner Sekundärquelle kandidierend
    I’d go with the verb instead of the noun here because it indicates the ongoing process which works better. Also makes it sounds like you’re running for office, which can be rather apt.

    Input is appreciated

    1. “Input is appreciated”

      Ok here goes :

      Contagion Empath – Überbordender Empath

      Proximate Fuel – Unmittellbarer Treibstoff

      Thought Fuel – Gedankentreibstoff

      Hoover by Proxy – Stellvertreter-Hoover

      Shelf Intimate Partner Secondary Source – Geparkte Intimpartnerin sekundäre Quelle

      Candidate Intimate Partner Secondary Source – Kandidierende Intimpartnerin sekundäre Quelle

      ???

      1. LC,
        I just laughed at “Geparkte Intimpartnerin” I think the car analogy works great in this case.
        Überbordener Empath – how about Empfangender Empath? Überbordened might be associated with something “boiling up” and is close to the Geyser Cadre.
        Perhaps Hochsensibler Empath? I have read Hochsensibel being described as someone who takes on others emotions as if they where their own and have trouble to know the difference.

        1. Désiree

          Hochsensibler Empath is wonderful for Contagion !

          It’s what it is and no nonsense. Best solution so far, I find

          1. LC and Desirée,

            re “Hochsensibler Empath is wonderful for Contagion”

            There is a difference between High Sensitive People (HSP) and Contagion Empath. Not all HSPs are Contagion Empaths.

            I understand that by ‘Contagion’ HG meant *Emotional Contagion*.
            If so, there is already a definition in German.

            *Gefühlsansteckung* (which has been translated into Englisch as ’emotional contagion’) ist ein Begriff aus der Psychologie, der eine Form der emotionalen Übertragung beschreibt.

            Der Terminus ist 1913 von Max Scheler genannt und analysiert worden, verwendet wird er häufig seit 1994, als er als Übersetzung des Hatfield-Buchtitels Emotional contagion bekannt wurde.
            https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gefühlsansteckung

          2. E.B.
            I agree that a highly sensitive person is not necessarily a contagion empath, which is why this could work as a distinction, provided sufficient explanation is given, which I am sure will be the case once HG posts his entries about the contagion. I would argue that any hsp would at least have a contagion empath element, given that from what I’ve read, this seems to be a determining factor of this condition.
            Would you then say that Gefühlsangestecker Empath would be a better translation than Angesteckter Empath or Hochsensibler Empath?

          3. Desirée,

            I added what I had found about ‘emotional empathy’ because LC wrote:
            “We need to research German medical as well as self help literature on narcissism to see what the competing and /or already established terms are.”
            I agree with her and shared what I had found.

            Your first translation -Angesteckter Empath- was good.

            Now I understand why you wanted to change to Hochsensibler Empath (HSP). You wrote to LC:
            “I have read Hochsensibel being described as someone who takes on others emotions as if they where their own and have trouble to know the difference.”
            I am afraid the author got it wrong. That is actually the Contagion Empath (and not HSP).

            If you wish, you can google “Differences between Empaths and HSP”.

            A Contagion Empath is not the equivalent to High Sensitive People (HSP).
            Some HSP are Contagion Empaths but not all Contagion are HSP.

          4. E. B.

            Thank you heaps for the Schelerreference! That’s really good stuff. I realised soon after I posted suggestions, along with SP, that we can’t do this without checking each and every term, to see what’s already established: which terms are used by professionals in the field discarded by HG, which are inventions by people outside of the established discourse – the ones HG uses too (and which might be already translated) , and which are the non established ones where does HG offer a variant, and what’s added by him.

            This means reading other narc theory but it should be fun work… Could probably sped up a lot if HG provided his reading list!

          5. You don’t need to read others, but we are gonna have to. Consider it a means to an end, in a Machiavellian fashion.

          6. Yes we do. As we will also need to contrast the terminology used in your former translations to keep consistency. The end justifies the means. And the end is perfection. Don’t you want perfection, HG?

          7. Former translations? Do you mean my work that’s already been translated? If so, that’s obviously sensible but LC was referring to what she understood as my previous reading, not my translated dork.

          8. HG, let me explain myself. I will use an example I mentioned a few days ago, “gaslighting.” As we know, the term came from one of the manipulative techniques one of the characters used in the homonymous film. This term was adopted from the popular culture by the medical community and now it is used when dealing with psychological abuse. If you are a good translator, you are already familiar with the target language and cultures that speak it. In Spanish, you should know the title of the film was translated as “luz de gas,” (a literal translation). But that is not enough. You need to confirm that, as it happened in English, the translation of the film is the same expression used in the medical community. To that purpose, you need to have a look at different books or articles on psychological abuse. Not because we believe they are more accurate than your work, but because you don’t want your translator to go all creative and inspired making up another term and creating confusion, when there already exists one that everyone understands and identifies with that form of abuse. Now, a different story is the word “fuel.” You are the only expert that refers to narcissistic nurture as fuel. That makes you unique and different from the rest, and it should be translated as fuel in the other language too, in this case, “combustible” in Spanish. The difference here is that you are the only one who offers this approach, while “gaslighting” is not used exclusively by you. I hope this clarifies my punctual justification for some little heresy…

          9. E. B.

            Dunno where my response to you went, perhaps my phone played up. Thank you so much for your Scheler reference! I’m taking back the Hochsensibler E.

            Do you really like Angesteckter Empath?

            It sounds like “deseased Empath” to me.

            I like Gefühlsangesteckter Empath…

            Perhaps there’s something more creative?

            Something like :

            Der Gefühlsschwamm?

            How do you all feel about gender inflections?

          10. HG

            Re: your reading list: this may have been a misunderstanding: you say in some works that you base your insight on reading, observation and the interaction with your good doctors. With reading list I meant those books that aided your understanding and that contributed to your view of narcissism. Those works might have been from within the professional field or from the lay community. If there are any that you remember that made an impression (good or bad or something in between) it would be helpful if you let us know which.

            If we knew those it might be easier to locate the best German equivalents – it would also help avoiding terms that others might be using and you don’t want to use because their use is different from yours etc.

            We were speaking about cultural differences earlier – I have found that people socialised in the German education system care a lot more about cleanly defined concepts and theoretical frames than do people from within the Anglo-American system. When I say Germans care more then this is not as regards the thinking behind something but as regards the presentation of it. Anglo-American presentation tends to place emphasis on readability and accessibility. German on respectability.

            Many readers will not care where terms and concepts come from in Germany either but many people will. I’m thinking not of the blog articles here but the books. This desire can be addressed in a short translator’s note or rather in a preface to the German edition written by you that you can add. But the terminology in blog and books is the same so it’s important to get it right from the start, even if the books are not on the agenda just as yet.

            But this is a new point, I asked originally because knowing the titles that play some role in your thinking would speed up the process as explained above …