What Happens When You Tell The Narcissist He Is An Abuser?


Next to nobody knows that they have been ensnared by a narcissist the first time that it happens. Indeed, in some cases the victim has no awareness until the second, third or even fourth occasion when this happens. The awakening moment usually occurs post-escape or more usually post-disengagement. This means that the opportunity to express this new found knowledge is reduced ; either because you are now maintaining no contact or the narcissist has disappeared (for the time being) with a new victim in his or her grip. Accordingly, the opportunity to confront the narcissist to tell them that he or she is a narcissist is reduced and I have written separately about what the resultant effect is where you declare ‘No! You Are The Narcissist’.

What is more likely to happen is that the victim recognises that they are being abused or if they do not use that word, they do at least realise that the way they are being treated in a way which is wrong, unpleasant or disrespectful. There are of course a whole host of reasons why the victim may fail to recognise what is happening to them and indeed act on any awareness that does occur, but those are points to address in a separate article.

If you realise that you are being abused, what will happen when you turn to the abusive narcissist and tell them that are an abuser and that they are engaging in abusive behaviour with you.

The Lesser Narcissist

The Lesser Narcissist will not deny the behaviour that you complain of. The Lesser tends to use physical violence, sexual violence, verbal violence and property destruction as the main methods of implementing abuse and exerting control. This is because the Lesser operates in a rudimentary fashion through the sudden explosion of heated fury. Make a point to a Lesser that he or she does not like, you can expect, as a minimum to be treated to the eloquent response of “fuck off”, a punch to the face or quite possibly both. Unrefined, vulgar and crass, the response of the Lesser to being wounded or the need to exert control is to lash out in a bullying and obvious manner.

Should you tell a Lesser Narcissist that he or she is an abuser, you will generate two responses which are similar in nature. If you make this allegation in a neutral manner (thus free of fuel) it will wound the Lesser because he realises that it is critical of his behaviour and therefore this wounding will result in an ignition of fury. Thus heated fury follows and you will find yourself on the receiving end of the types of violence which I have described above.

More likely, when you tell the Lesser Narcissist that he is an abuser, you will do so in a way which provides Challenge Fuel. You will probably be upset, hurt, frustrated or angry when you level this accusation at the Lesser Narcissist. This means you are providing fuel. Nevertheless, the Lesser Narcissist will interpret your allegation as one which is challenging his or her entitlement to treat you precisely as he or she sees fit. Remember, in our eyes, you are an object, a possession and we are entitled to treat you as we want. Do not forget that we have a huge need to control and abuse is a significant method of control. Again, in our world, the need to maintain control and the fact that abuse facilitates control results in its validation. Finally, add into the mix that the Lesser has no empathy whatsoever. Your challenging of our perceived right, the challenge to our entitlement, the paranoia-stoked rebellion to our necessary control means that if you scream at the Lesser Narcissist that he is a hateful, abusive bastard means you issue Challenge Fuel. His response will be

a. He instinctively recognises there is more fuel to be obtained here and therefore the simplest way to gather that precious fuel is to provoke you; and

b. You are challenging his superiority and your insurrection must be quashed.

Since the Lesser operates in a rudimentary fashion, his or response will be to give you another dose of the abusive behaviour to ‘get you back into line’.  The Lesser never explains, never justifies – he or she just does because he or she is entitled to do this and if you do not like it, tough shit. In the same way that a Lesser will state an opinion and all who disagree are automatically labelled as idiots and morons (without explaining why they are), the Lesser responds in an automatic and knee-jerk manner based on their unwavering belief that they are right and entitled.

The Lesser does not recognise that this behaviour is wrong. It is your fault. You deserve this behaviour. He or she cannot empathise with your pain and hurt, instead he or she will only see the need to increase it in order to exert control and gain more fuel. The Lesser does not actually address the allegation in any way which you recognise as dealing with it, but instead will launch a verbal attack against you to deflect from your allegation, to put you in your place and to increase your misery. A fist will be driven into your face or your will be shoved to the floor and given two swift kicks. You ought to know your place and that is one of submission. If you tell a Lesser Narcissist that he or she is an abuser, expect an aggressive response designed to quell your rebellious accusation.

The Mid Range Narcissist will adopt a defensive response to any accusation of him or her being an abuser. Just like the Lesser, the manner in which you make the allegation will either cause wounding or (more often) the provision of Challenge Fuel. Being far more passive aggressive in nature, the Mid Range Narcissist will not lash out with a “more of the same is good for you” attitude that the Lesser adopts, but rather they will continue the abusive behaviour through defending their reputation and justifying their behaviour. This operates as follows :-

  1. “I am not an abuser, how can you say that?” The Mid Range Narcissist believes that he or she is a decent person. That is their true perspective and therefore it just does not ‘compute’ that they could be labelled as an abuser because it does not accord with their own view of themselves. There is no insight. Further, not only has the comment offended their view of themselves, but it also offends their view that they have always been ‘good’ to you, when you are asked how you can say that.
  2. “I know you get upset with me at times but that is because you over react.” The key response of the Mid Range Narcissist to being accused of abusive behaviour is to automatically blame-shift. Notice how they do not deny that the act has happened but rather it is your response which is the key to the Mid Ranger being able to avoid any culpability. It is again your fault. Whereas the Lesser lets you know that it is your fault just because it is, the Mid Ranger will at least tell you why it is your fault

“You are too sensitive.”

“You take too much to heart.”

“Don’t be silly, you read too much into things.”

Thus the narcissist dilutes the effect of the behaviour by suggesting it is the perspective of the victim which is the problem and not the narcissist.

3. If the Mid Range Narcissist does not suggest that it is the perspective of the victim that is the issue, then they will blame-shift in a further way by glossing over the abusive behaviour and instead focusing on the victim as being the catalyst for the abuse and therefore it cannot be the fault of the Mid Ranger. He or she does not necessarily deny that the behaviour has taken place, but their automatic need to maintain the upper hand means that their perspective ensures that the victim is the one who is blamed. Accordingly,

“I know you get upset when I do not speak to you, but if you let me have some peace and quiet rather than nagging me all of the time, I would not have to do it.”

“I slapped you because you were out of order shouting at me the way you did, that is no way to talk to your husband.”

4. The Mid Ranger also deflects by ignoring the abusive behaviour (again not denying it has taken place) but removes any validity of the accusation by deflecting and does so by pointing out all of the good things that the Mid Ranger does for the victim. There is also a good dose of projection in these responses too.

“I cannot believe you pick on one minor incident where I lost my temper after all of the things I have done for you recently.”

“I find it a bit much for you to accuse me of such behaviour when I have been working my nuts off to provide for this household. That really is not fair. Do you know how much pressure I have been under as of late?”

“I said those things because they are true and you don’t appreciate anything I do for you, nothing at all. You always seize on the one thing which I apparently do wrong and castigate me for it whilst you ignore all of the really good things that I do. How is that fair?”

5. The False Mea Culpa. The Mid Range Narcissist may well acknowledge that what they have done is unpleasant and hurtful and rather than blame-shift on to the victim as described above, they transfer culpability to something else.

“I don’t know what came over me, I think someone must have spiked my drink.”

“I have no idea why I did that, it must be all the pressure at work.”

“That’s not me that does that, it is like, it is like there is some demon or something which takes over from time to time. I need some help, will you help me?”

“I know there is something wrong with me, I just cannot help it, it isn’t the real me, I want to stop it, I will see someone about it and together we can conquer it.”

Notice how there is no accountability, it is some other ‘force’ or event which has caused the aberrant behaviour. The Mid Range Narcissist also deflects from what they have done by making it all about them in terms of them being a tortured soul, needing help, needing the support of the victim. This apparent contrition not only regularly cons the victim (because it is not genuine but is just a further manipulation) but it also results in plenty of fuel for the Mid Range Narcissist as he is “fussed” over by the victim and third parties.

The bottom line with the Mid Range Narcissist is that they will never accept they are an abuser. They are not programmed to do that as they have no emotional empathy. They might understand how their conduct is considered as ‘wrong’ by you and other people, because of their increased cognitive function but their disorder will not allow them to accept accountability for it. If they did, they would lose control and lose fuel and therefore they are automatically conditioned to reject any suggestion of culpability or accountability for the abuse.

The victim will be suckered into thinking either it is their fault (they over-reacted, they have been getting on the Mid Ranger’s back more recently (yes, with justification but they are dissuaded from seeing it that way) or that the Mid Ranger recognises and accepts they have abused the victim. Typically, rather than get away having (apparently) secured the truth (as a truth seeker) the victim stays in the hope of securing the healing of the abuser which they long for (alongside all of the other reasons why a victim remains with an abusive narcissist).

The Mid Ranger will maintain the façade that he or she is a good person, blame-shift and then if necessary created waves of sympathy for their behaviour whilst still not accepting they are to blame for it.

The Greater Narcissist knows the behaviour is abusive and sees it as entirely necessary to the fulfilment of his or her aims, namely control, and The Prime Aims. The Greater Narcissist also lacking emotional empathy, guilt or remorse sees what they do as a function. The Greater Narcissist knows what they are doing but the overriding need for control and superiority means that it is entirely acceptable to abuse.

Of course, the aware Greater Narcissist recognises that to make such an admission to the victim is a foolish one as this would cede control to the victim, something which must not happen. The Greater Narcissist adopts a triumvirate approach to any allegation that he or she is an abuser

  1. Total Rejection.
  2. Misperception.
  3. Threat

Through Total Rejection, the Greater Narcissist will just dismiss the allegation. Able to control his or her ignited fury with a far greater degree of control, the glacial Greater will just wave a hand and tell the victim

“That’s not abuse, punching somebody is abusive, what I did, is not abuse.”

“Don’t be so silly, I do not abuse you. Does an abuser take someone to the premiere of the new Bond movie and the after performance party? No they do not.”

The Greater is able to do this because he or she control their ignited fury, the fact that they speak and operate with a supreme confidence and conviction and because the nature of the abuse doled out by the Greater is done in such a calculated, insidious and mind-fucking manner that the victim (with eroded self-worth and reduced critical thinking) is easily led to the conclusion that it cannot be abuse. The Greater acts with plausible deniability. There are no marks from the kick to the lower back that a Lesser would leave. No finger tip bruising from the Mid Range hand about the neck. No witnesses, no observers, no evidence. Your word versus ours.

Misperception is also used. Greaters enjoy gas lighting you as the finesse and skill required appeals to our more sophisticated approach to abuse. Of course whilst we see this as an almost noble way to abuse you, it remain abuse nevertheless.

“Don’t be silly darling, that never happened.”

“We must get you back to the doctors, you are hallucinating again.”

“I told you not to mix that medication and vodka, see what it has done? It has you thinking horrible things about you and me.”

Events never happened, actions have been perceived by you inaccurately. Throw in the game-playing of our Coterie and our Lieutenants and you will find yourself in a dizzying and disorientating nightmare where the abuse never did happen because of your mistaken perception.

Finally, threat will be used. Here, the ever confident Greater will admit that the abuse has happened but makes it very clear with an accompanying reptilian smile that if you ever breath a word of it to anybody else then the resulting repercussions will be a hundred times worse than what you have experienced before. The jet-black eyes fixed on you and the steady delivery of such a threat readily convinces you that this is the case. Having experienced the abuse and also being well-aware of what the Greater is capable of, the Greater’s admission gets you no further forward. Instead, you may think you have gained some power through achieving this admission, but you actually have a sword of Damocles hanging over your head now, reminding you of the threat attached to acquiring this power. In reality, it is not power at all.

With regard to the issue of abuse, it is pointless to try and gain acknowledgement from the abuser. You will not receive validation and instead you will face further abuse and manipulation.

If you require validation as to what is happening to you, rely on your gut instinct and read Manipulated, Devil’s Toolkit and Black Flag as within those pages you will find all the confirmation you require which will give you the logic to move to the next stage of countering and escaping that abuse,

119 thoughts on “What Happens When You Tell The Narcissist He Is An Abuser?

  1. honestyrocks777 says:

    If people simply stop there thoughts..or try to..isnt that repressing feeling and thoughts and it will hinder being and come back full force later?

    It sounds like that is what I’m being told to do. And it scares me.

    I understand that there may be aittle truth to I may not listen to what people say because of my emotional thinking, however the whole reason I ask is because I AM able to utilize my logical thinking and when the ET subsides I reread comments etc for understanding. Like I said..I am not some girl down in the dumps everyday. Part of who I am is always analyzing lol. Always. I play devils advocate most. I feel many people dont spend enough time thinking through things and finding the errors etc.

    I was just curious what CPTSD was doing to others and if they could related so that I didnt feel alone in this. If anyone was experiencing the same things.

    It was likened to a computer having a virus and it has to restore itself to a previous date before the virus. But then I was mad because I should only go back 2 years. I’m not. I’m back 8 or 10 years. Trying to figure out what I think or believe. I dont want to do this process all over.

    Also, I just simply wonder if my ET might just be high regardless.. lol. But like I said I just like having words to read to help me because whether or not you think I wont take it in.. it is there to do so. Rather than have nothing. No people to relate. Etc.

    I just wanted to hear from people diagnosed with cptsd and their struggles and what they are doing. Medications? Loss of identity? Extreme practices?

    Oh btw.. wish me luck Heheh. My car has been down for about 3 or 4 weeks. Had the ignition switch replaced.. and today is the big day to see if it will start or if the batteryit died overnight again. Ugh.. if it died then it’s something else :/

    Anyways.. perpetuating engagement with the narcissist? How so? It goes back to what is repression that will hinder healing and promote more issues. Healing is telling your story and eventually it gets easier to tell.


  2. honestyrocks777 says:

    Can I ask for help on something..

    Today has not been good. Can anyone relate? Understand?

    I’m confused. I have a best friend. He and I were close about 8 years ago. Went our own directions. But over the 2 years I have been with nick, I would think about izzy. Telling myself “I would never have experienced this craziness with izzy, he was perfect” but I only saw him as a friend then.

    Over the years I have tried to get my friend back. I hurt him years ago. But through this nick thing he has entertained my tears and given advice and prayers over the years. He was one of the first people I opened up to about what was going on.

    Hes been walking by my side. Reading. Listening. Understanding what I was going through. I missed him. We enjoy the same things and read and study the same materials. Have similar goals. Was going to our seminars together before covid. It was nice. And so easy. We were just natural together.

    I am learning about cptsd etc. Over the months I’ve told him I am lost. I dont know who I am. That I keep going backwards, if you will, in my brain. I am craving things from 8 to 10 years ago. Things i moved on from.

    I used to believe in monogamy. But 8 or 10 years ago i was all for open relationships. Casual relationships. And i grew and decided that wasnt for me. Then nick came along. And now pose escape i am so lost.

    I have izzy who is my best friend. And some times i want to be intimate. Although i simply cant have sex yet. I’m terrified. I’m moody.

    Then my mind goes backwards where i am craving extreme casual encounters.. but not with izzy. I tried a little bit of spanking etc but it was not a good power exchange for me to receive.

    BDSM was something I loved since I was 18. I’m 37. I’m looking back into that. I used to model. I’m looking back into doing photoshoots. I used to do casual encounters.. and I’m freaking out.

    I’m doing a push and pull with him. I want closeness but then I’m either irritated or annoyed or scared and pull back.

    And I dont want to hurt him. I want to be with other people physically but not have sex with him. Because I dont want to hurt him.

    What the hell is happening? Why am i doing this? Back and forth. Wanting to be with strangers and the extreme aspects. Being afraid to be committed with izzy. He is so much like me in many ways. But I’m Wanting to explore. Like risk losing someone who will be good to me?

    Being afraid I am too much. That nick is right. AndThat izzy cant satisfy me. I dont want to face that stuff.

    I dont even know if I believe in monogamy anymore. My faith is shot. I need this outside stuff of extremes and sex etc. Why? Is it real?
    Do others feel this?

    It’s like I want to be taken advantage of sexually. And other time I want a romance sexually. But I dont want my best friend to not meet my wants. And I want to be free. But I was not like this with nick. Smh. I only wanted what I believed in.

    Can anyone talk with me about this? It sucks I dont have a private way of sharing. And I dont know how to tag people to see this.

    Is this a result of trauma for others?

    I did see that with cptsd it cause those to lose their pretrauma identity. I dont like this. I’m so lost.

    Please dont think i am also sulking. Some days i am great. But i dont want to hurt my friend.

    And also, logically he is great. Emotionally he is self aware and we have great in depth talks. He had a very high EQ.

    But I am not infatuated. And that is confusing for me. I dont have this deep desire to always be around him and that I cant live without him and it’s all new to me.

    I feel like I am doing hot and cold like the article.

    Can any of you go step by step and make comments on my post. I feel so crappy and keep pulling away further from my best friend. We even did a date about 4 weeks ago and it was incredible. But then I’ve been going downhill.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The last thing you should be doing is dating or engaging in sexual encounters when your emotional thinking is so high. Your ET is causing you to question as you have described, it is making you focus on detail and keeping you absorbed in that detail, it is making you revisit the past and compare Izzy with Nick, it risks causing you to be ensnared by another narcissist. Rather than revisiting “Nick said this” and comparing this person with Nick (which is causing you to enter the arenas of interaction) you need to impose a proper no contact regime. You are not doing this and this is why your feel the way you do and have the thoughts that you do. Seeking an analysis from readers of the above is pointless because
      1. You are perpetuating engagement with the narcissist and therefore keeping your ET high , and
      2. Your ET is too high as it is, so no matter what is explained to you, it will not sink in, because your ET will not let it and you will just analyse the responses and go back and forth.

      Your ET is too high. The only thing you can focus on is knowing you were ensnared with a narcissist and you must impose no contact and get your ET down as explained in the Addiction Triple Package and the Final Battle. Forget working out what has happened (it is too early), forget returning property, forget seeking other encounters you should do one thing and one thing only – impose a proper no contact regime and maintain it.

      1. honestyrocks777 says:

        I analyze all the time HG 🙂 not just because I have emotional thinking. I simply like to think. I like to figure things out.

        Gosh if my ET is too high as it is.. that sucks.. lol. I dont have a lot of time to think. Just in here. I process. Outloud. I am an external processor. I think what many people think but just say mine. Lol. In another comment t I talked about..I think I’m doing alright. It’s been a week or so since I cried. It was just a quick tear. I just want to be very careful not to repress and give myself trouble down the road.

        Gosh arent people just horny some days? Lol. I was last week but no worries.. I removed myself from the site. And just dont feel like that now.

        As far as izzy. Hes my best friend. He is learning with me. Communication is awesome. I’m just scared. I poured myself so much into Nick that I didnt have much time for.myself. so I’ve been just doing my thing for a few weeks. Trying to just be with myself. And I dont like being so annoyed. And I understand its part of trauma depression anxiety etc.

        As far as no matter what is said to me will not sink in,

        I disagree to an extent. Yes i may have emotions. But i love sorting things out. I love hearing what people have to say. In fact hearing what people say and think gives me different thoughts in addition to mine to mull over. It’s actually a fascinating process for me 🙂

        And when people give input I can go back and read them whenever I need. But it certainly helps to have the validation and understanding as well as rationale. They are great combos. And I feel for myself I have good mixtures. People dont like my polite yet blunt questions.. lol. It takes them back because I think people expect me to just be quiet. Nah. Lol

        But it’s too early you say to work things out? It’s been 6 months!! That’s a.damn long time and I need to move on and the way I can is by understanding..lol. that’s how my brain does things. This is a formula and it shouldn’t take mere 6 months to work out this math problem.. lol

        And darnit.. I get horny. So there. Lol

  3. mcthriver says:

    The section on MRN responses is so accurate, I could believe that the elite UMRN I was ensnared by for so many years has been using it as a blueprint for his own behaviour since I left him a few months ago.

    During his IGH he appeared to show at least some insight into his behaviour, alluding to his denials, blame-shifting, projecting, addictions etc, even doing so in writing to me but always stopped short of regarding this as abuse. There was plenty of future-faking, too.

    His abrupt about face came when having to deal with the situation with the lawyers, when he shifted the blame fair and square at my feet and the preservation of his reputation and facade kicked in.
    He has painted me as the abuser.

    The initial relief I had felt when he he had appeared to understand the root causes and had apologised for them, disappeared in an instant.

    Multiple pity plays, sympathy ploys, playing the victim (to an extreme level) involving tertiary sources ensued. He is now making attempts to control and delay the legal process on his own terms by undermining and smearing me while attempting to appear like a reasonable human being, which is very convincing to those who are not privy to his true personality.

    He did not have a backup IPSS and has fallen out with so many people over the years means that he is floundering so badly he keeps making school boy errors, usually in writing fortunately. It is literally a “child in a man’s body”. Even our adult children are beginning to see him for what he is and are keeping him at arm’s length.

    I need so badly to be able to move on with my life now but his total lack of empathy is simply not allowing this to happen. It will happen eventually, I am certain of that. It is just so frustrating and exasperating!

    Without having read this blog and having been able to anticipate much of his behaviour I would be in deep s**t now. Thank you HG, I appreciate your honesty and clarity.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are most welcome and good to see it bringing clarity for you.

  4. Mary says:

    Gabrielle: Re “I know he is an ass. But when he is not an ass, it’s perfect.”

    Except it isn’t, because he’s never NOT an ass. That’s the thing, he’s ALWAYS an ass. Even when it feels perfect, he’s still an ass. His ass is just pretending it’s all perfect to keep you reeled in. Even when he is the most charming, seemingly caring guy in that moment, he’s an ass. Especially then, in fact, because he’s fucking your head and heart over with this perfect act!

    Because you are sincere in your feelings, you believe he is. You need to believe it to feed the addiction to him.
    Not judging you at all, but you have to see him for what he is, an ass every minute of the day.

    1. honestyrocks777 says:

      But they arent pretending right? They believe they are genuine. They believe they feel. Mine stood up for the underdogs. Etc. Always about justice. Everything “makes sense” because it IS all plausible. He was brilliant. Pretending would mean they are aware that they are putting on a show. They arent. That is where I get caught up. Except gosh, the stuff I come across with the Greaters is so creepy.

      Hg I understand you say some of the manipulations a Greater will not use. Can a Greater be aware of what they are doing, utilize pity plays etc simply because it WORKS best on me?

      Some of the stories from the previous girls he simply did not do that game with them. I see them as not so gullible like me.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Greaters don’t use Pity Plays, it’s beneath us and unnecessary

  5. WokeAF says:

    My first 🚩with kids dad – in a Toronto subway, he lit up a cig and I asked him to put it out as I was uncomfortable. He berated me and then on the bus started kicking the seat ahead of him while he LOOKED AT ME. I had a strange moment of alarm .
    I’ve often thought that if I’d had my sense of self in a healthy place- i’ve got off the bus, got home, and never spoken to him again .
    But if Id done that – I never would have my wonderful kids .
    But then again I wouldn’t have known that I wouldn’t have my wonderful kids .
    I thought about that moment many times for the last 24 years

  6. Patrick Bateman says:

    I found in dealing with a mid ranger that because of my exceptional cognitive function i can construct questions and evidence in a way that becomes more or less irrefutable and designed in a way that leaves virtually no loop holes, the mid ranger will then either say nothing or drop the topic…. That’s about as close to victory i have gotten….. So far

    1. HG Tudor says:

      This is engagement and breaches the first golden rule of freedom. You do not need to engage with the narcissist. You are nowhere near victory because

      1. You are providing fuel.
      2. You are running the risk of an adverse response.
      3. You are increasing your emotional thinking.

      See the Devil´s Pitchfork and read it twice.

      1. Patrick Bateman says:

        Yes, your perspective is extremely valuable… I have engaged in this situation knowingly and willingly… As you stated in the YouTube video ten ways to cause a hoover… “On your head be it”

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Your logic is at least enabling you to see this. Apply GOSO and your logic will prevail further.

    2. Shelf Fuel says:

      This accurately describes how I have dealt with piano boy. And the outcome of such. Although in addition to do nothing or drop the topic, he will ask me for space and to be left alone.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        You have not dealt with him at all SF. Go to your comment about how jealous you feel. That is not dealing with him.

  7. alexissmith2016 says:

    That is such fucked up thinking! but hilarious all the same!

    As a guess, what percentage would you say have encountered another N and what percentage perceive they are in devaluation from a true victim.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Do you mean of those that have come here? If you do it is difficult to say because some only comment here and their narcissism manifests through showing different behaviour (unrelated to their interaction with the person that may have brought them here in the first place) so I do not have sufficient information to comment on their ensnarement, whether theirs was a True Victim or The Other Narcissist. In broad terms though, they are more likely to have a True Victim than ensnared with The Other Narcissist.

      1. alexissmith2016 says:

        Ah okay. That’s helpful to know. And is that because they are less likely to have been ensnared with another narc to begin with? Jees all these poor empaths being accused of being a narc.

      2. honestyrocks777 says:

        I haven’t heard these terms the true victim and the other narc…what is this?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Very occasionally a narcissist consults with me. For ease of reference we will label as A the person who is consulting with me who is a narcissist and B is the person that A believes is a narcissist.

          A thinks they are a victim. Occasionally they are actually ensnared by another narcissist, so A is a narcissist and B is The Other Narcissist. This is where narcissists collide.
          More usually, A is a narcissist and B is NOT a narcisisst, B is the True Victim because a is The Narcissist (or False Victim).

          I will emphasise that the vast majority of people who consult with me are NOT narcissists before I get emails from worried individuals concerned they are narcissists.

          1. Alexissmith2016 says:

            If anyone is worried they are an N they would find it incredibly helpful to take the empath detector. I wish I’d Have taken mine much sooner than I did. I was rather concerned I was an N, to have confirmation from HG that I am not and what type I was I found invaluable and incredibly reassuring.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you AS2016, good point.

  8. kaydiva3 says:

    One of my exes used to flip out and scream and curse at me if I tried to tell him I was feeling uncomfortable with what he was doing. When I asked him to stop screaming because he was scaring me, he would say “I wouldn’t scream at you if you didn’t make me so angry”. Eventually I just shut up and let him do whatever he wanted because it wasn’t worth the trauma.

    My next boyfriend just ignored me or shrugged when I told him he hurt me.

    Later a different man, who I was never dating but decided to stalk me, presented as caring at times and would give me gifts and praise me. When I told him his behavior was excessive and inappropriate, he would say “I don’t know why you’re making things up. All I want to do is love you”, or “You are overthinking this, you mistake caring for controlling”.

    I’m not sure which was the worst.

  9. ceyceyc says:

    i still can’t understand the difference between ipss and dls but i discovered that he’s a mid range. I have experienced every word in this post.
    what happened when i tell him ? he put everything into his ammo then he shot me with them. now he is hiding from me like i am the abuser one. even Tolkien could not write such a fantastic fiction !

    1. WokeAF says:

      IPPS is his main girlfriend or source of supply. DLS is dirty little secret – an affair , essentially, that likely isn’t leading to promotion

      1. ceyceyc says:

        Thank you.
        ipPs is ok. I just can’t understand the reason for a separate “dls” title it’s because “be known by others” thing. if there is an ipps (especially a wife or a husband) rest is must be secret. if there is an ipps, spending time with others is limited. i guess i’m wrong because i can’t look from the narcissist’s perspective. the difference is related to the measure of fuel rather than to people.

        1. MB says:

          Ceyceyc, ‘What am I to the Narcissist’ and The Fuel Matrix articles are helpful in determine where you sit. If you haven’t done so, consult with HG and he will give you a definitive answer. It will satisfy your truth seeker so that you can read, understand, and GOSO with better clarity.

          1. ceyceyc says:

            Thank you for the information. i didn’t ask for myself, i was trying to understand the ipss. but it’s ok now

          2. honestyrocks777 says:

            Oh gosh!!! Yes I love to understand!!

  10. ava101 says:


    if someone is a narc, and I tell him that I don’t trust him, … – and that he didn’t give me any reason to … What would go on in his mind?
    Like – I told someone and now it’s like he’s blaming me for not trusting his words or him ….
    I don’t know him enough, and he just doesn’t get that – that I just have no way of knowing what his real intentions are.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      1. If someone is a narcissist you should not be telling him that you do not trust him. Obey the First Golden Rule of Freedom.
      2. If you tell him, it is Challenge Fuel. He will have to reject this ´rebellion´.

      1. ava101 says:

        How is telling a narc that I don’t trust him not wounding??
        How is blocking a narc on Facebook not wounding?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. Because it is Challenge Fuel because you deliver fuel when you tell him that you do not trust him.
          2. Blocking is wounding.

          1. ava101 says:

            2. Ohhh…. that’s why he thought he needed to punish me. *innocent look*

  11. Shelf Fuel says:

    This so Mr. Mid Range Piano Boy. I never accused him of being an abuser but I (indirectly) accused him of being a LIAR.

    I remember when I found out he was lying to me after he cancelled our weekend plans. He said he had to travel out of state for a funeral and would be gone the entire weekend. Yet he did not share any details with me (he usually does share). I did not believe him so I drove to his office on the day he said he was going to be out of state. And surprise surprise his car was at his office, there was no funeral. I was angry but too chicken shit to confront him. Tempted to leave a note on his car that said “Hey Superman! It is cool to see you are in 2 places at once!” (He’s into anything Marvel or superhero related). Alas I did not do that. I posted a passive aggressive meme on my social media that said “It is not your lie I find offensive but the insult to my intelligence”. Then I drove back home.

    An hour later he texted me and was furious. “Are you accusing me of lying to you my darling?”
    Me: (innocently): “What do you mean?”
    Him: “Your Instagram post. It was directed towards me wasn’t it? You think I am lying to you. If that is the case I prefer you state it directly rather than post about it online”
    Me: “I don’t accuse anyone of lying unless I am certain.”
    Him: “Are you saying your post was not directed towards me then?”
    Me: “Should it be?”
    Him: “I cannot do this anymore. I need a break from you. Please leave me alone”
    Me: “We just had this talk about needing a break and you said you did not need a break”
    Him: “Unless you can tell me that my post is not about me and that you are not accusing me of lying to you then yes I do want a break from you”
    Me: “Who passed away?”
    Him: “I should not have to share that with you if I don’t want to! But since you asking it was a family friend of my father’s…”
    Me: “Is there a memorial fund or charity donation for the deceased? Is there anything I can do to help?”
    Him: “I do not want your money or charity!”
    Me: “Relax, it was just a question!”
    Him: “You better curb your attitude with me right now or I am gone!”
    Me: “Fine, whatever!”
    Him: “From now on you reach out to me if you have questions. As long as you pose your questions politely I will not fly off the handle with you. But if you ever post a passive aggressive stuff online again then I am through with you, do you understand me?”

    Keep in mind he still did not admit he was lying but I am sure he had to have known that I knew he was full of shit.

    A few hours later I texted back to tell him that his attitude was nasty and that I needed a break. He immediately replies, “I am so sorry, I have utterly lost my mind today. I was very cruel to you, please forgive me. Just let me get through this and I will find you again soon.”

    And we have not spoken since. Excuses are one thing but a pretend funeral? Special spot in hell for that one buddy.

    1. MB says:

      Shelf Fuel, I got the funeral excuse too. I don’t think it’s that uncommon. Empathic people are too nice to ask questions for fear of upsetting the person. And if you do, then you’re the ass for questioning. It’s a pretty good excuse for disappearing really.

      Your relationship with this guy will never be good and stay good. I hope you will do some consultation with HG and let him help you with the work you have ahead to rid this toxic person from your life and your heart.

      1. Shelf Fuel says:

        I was more hurt that he had to use THAT as an excuse to not see me. Like he was too chicken shit to say “I do not want to spend time with you”. But rather he became defensive and pissed off about my social media post by calling me out on it but NOT admitting he was lying. I mean DUH getting defensive about it when he was obviously lying! That just means he’s a liar! If his lie didn’t bother him why would be care? When he “apologized” later on about the argument (and it was totally half assed apology) he said “I am ashamed of myself, please forgive me for being so cruel”. Yet still no admission of the obvious lie. He really is such a child sometimes.

        I was pretty mad all weekend but now the good memories keep sneaking back in and I hate that. I keep thinking “oh maybe he went to the funeral later” or “maybe he booked a flight instead of driving”. Ugh. WHY? I want to continue to press the issue. I am mad but I am also scared to bring it up again. During the argument he was upset that I was “testing” him. Whatever that means.

        Ugh. Just….ugh.

        1. HG Tudor says:


        2. MB says:

          SF, this is all classic N behavior that HG writes about. He is textbook Narc. You came up against the twin lines of defense. You will never “win” an argument. You will never receive a real apology. He will never pass up an opportunity to control you or suck fuel from you. He will always have you on eggshells being scared to bring things up for fear of upsetting him. You continue to look at his behavior from your world view where people tell the truth and treat others how they want to be treated. As long as you remain an appliance in his matrix, he will control and abuse you. Yes, I said abuse. You are being abused and you need to get very angry about it and GOSO. Now is a really good time. What helped me the most when I hit my “I’m done” moment was when thoughts of good times would enter my mind, I replaced them with what made me angry and “done”. Don’t let the good thoughts take hold. They are tricking you to take your power away to rid this toxic person. It’s an addiction. A strong one. We aren’t much different from drug addicts. You must rid yourself of the substance of your addiction. GOSO is the only way forward. It is not easy, it is not fun, but it is absolutely necessary if you want to feel better and move forward. Make up your mind that you will take no more. Logic tells you he doesn’t love you. Think of the people in your life that do love you. Your best friend, a sister, a mother, brother, father, whoever. They don’t treat you like this. Be honest with yourself. He is a narcissist. He cannot change. Be done with him today. It’s your first day of no contact. It’s the first day of the rest of your life. He controls you no more sweetie. Pay for consultation. HG will give you the tools. You CAN do this. I promise. I’m pulling for you ❤️

          1. Shelf Fuel says:

            First it was “I need a break from you”…
            Then it was “I don’t need a break from you, that is too cruel and I won’t do that, we can still talk but we cannot see each other for awhile. No making plans for awhile. And NO MORE SEX”. Cue long winded monologue about his guilt and shame for being a cheater and how he “cannot be close to me like that” because he feels this “fall from grace” and he “cannot compartmentalize”.

            So essentially I have been “friend zoned”. Again.

            This is not the first time this has happened. He never means it. Intimacy always comes back. I never take anything he says at face value as he is a contradiction factory.

            But when he says it….he says it with such compulsion that it still fucking hurts.

            I actually asked him “What did I do to deserve this?”

            “I am not punishing you my darling girl. I am just doing what I always do. Which is steer this relationship to something more healthy than what it is…”

          2. MB says:

            SF, you don’t need anybody else giving advice to GOSO. What you do need to do is stop trying to make sense of what PB has said and done. None of it makes sense from our perspective. You know he’s a narcissist. You know he isn’t capable of being the man you wish he could be. No matter how hard you wish it was different. I know you love him. Your love is real, but you are also addicted. I know what that’s like. Like any addict, I think you have to hit rock bottom before you decide it’s time to detox or die. Once the pain outweighs the high, the scales will tip and you’ll be done with PB. Rock bottom is a different place for each addict. Until then, nothing anybody (except maybe HG) can say will sink in. Your situation resonates with me, but unlike me, you have your love life on hold waiting for him to change. You are passing up a possible opportunity for genuine love waiting on this knight in shining tinfoil. What I wish is that you could spend a weekend as a fly on the wall in his home and see how his wife really lives. I would have liked to see the full horror of my N. It would’ve erased all thoughts of hearts and rainbows.

          3. Shelf Fuel says:

            “What I wish is that you could spend a weekend as a fly on the wall in his home and see how his wife really lives. I would have liked to see the full horror of my N. It would’ve erased all thoughts of hearts and rainbows.”

            MB, you’re in my head. This is what I’ve wished for constantly. I am so unbelievably jealous of his wife it is not even funny. And when Piano Boy acts like this, it kicks my jealousy into high gear and I just want to reach out to his wife and tell her everything about us. Because I want him to be mine. I want him to be mine it’s not fair that she has him and I don’t. Of course during the times when he’s not an ass, I don’t feel that jealousy as much. But it’s still there. I feel empty without him. there are times I wish I could BE her. I’m sure you’re reading this and shaking your head right now. But that is the best way to explain it.

          4. NarcAngel says:

            You do know telling his wife will not make him yours?

          5. HG Tudor says:


          6. Shelf Fuel says:

            Yes I know. It is a feeling (the overwhelming jealousy of wanting her to know) that comes and goes for me, whether I want to reach out and tell her or not that is. When he’s being good to me I don’t have those feelings. But when he’s being an ass then I do. Part of me also wants her to just leave (without my interference) because then maybe, just maybe, he would then be mine.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            He will not be yours. Even if his wife left, there is no guarantee you would be the IPPS and guess what, if you did become the IPPS you would be devalued and more than likely disengaged from in the fullness of time. Here are your choices
            1. Remain the Shelf IPSS therefore always second best, dangled around, made to feel inferior, occasionally treated well, made to fell angry, upset, frustrated, bewildered, being lied to, wondering what he is doing, feeling jealous of his wife, wondering how he is with her, not knowing who else he is ensnaring (you will not be the only IPSS) .He will keep you like this for as long as you let him.
            2. He disengages from her but someone else becomes the IPPS. You remain the shelf IPSS (see 1).
            3. He disengages from her and you become the IPPS. Golden period of x months and then devalued and you will be devalued and it will be far worse than what you experience now. Rollercoaster respite and devaluation until death.
            4. He disengages from her and you become the IPPS. Golden period of x months and then devalued and you will be devalued and it will be far worse than what you experience now. Rollercoaster respite and devaluation until you are disengaged from , or
            5. Impose solid no contact and avoid any of the above.

            It really is that clear.

          8. WokeAF says:

            Why would you want to be with a cheater ?

            Biggest insult of all will be if you tell the wife – she leaves him/
            He finds a new IPPS and never promoted you st all lol
            I’ve been in your position and I finally realized ;
            If you were good enough as IPPS you’d be it by now., in his eyes you’re not good enough he’s keeping you where you are because that’s all you’re worth to him . Get it??
            And if by some slim chance he was in chaos mode and made you IPPS – it’ll just be till he finds someone better to replace you. Or someone to make his new dirty little secret to string on for years
            Plus your life then you can use that as an excuse and support thing and blame you
            UntiL the Hoover

            I didn’t have to hit rock bottom I just had to really grasp the narcissistic worldview
            Anyway why do you want to blow the wife’s world apart? She’s probably suffering enough and chances are she already knows about you and the others .

          9. HG Tudor says:

            I didn’t have to hit rock bottom I just had to really grasp the narcissistic worldview – absolutely right.

          10. MB says:

            SF, I’m not in your head except for the fact that I’m a Narc addict just like you. The affliction manifests similarly in all of us. If I could be your fairy godmother, I’d wave my wand and put you on that wall as an observing fly. Think about it though, HGs work is the next best thing to that! Even better really because he gives you the why behind the behavior you observe. Read the articles with you and PB as the subjects. ‘What Goes on Below’, ‘Perchance to Sleep’, and the one about returning home after a night out. (The door is ajar in the picture.). I can’t find the damn thing. Frustrating! Those are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head, but there are so so many here. You know PB is a narcissist. It’s even obvious to me in the texts you transcribe here and the conversations and behavior you describe is straight from the book of narc. Your story is similar to that of many victims here. They all operate from the same playbook, remember? Why would your story with PB be different from anybody else’s? HG writes in descriptive detail what PBs wife is experiencing. You don’t need to experience it for yourself to know. You can be saved from that fate. You are so fortunate to have found this resource during your entanglement. So many have suffered and only found HG after their entanglement. I’m not reading your post and shaking my head. I’m reading your post and seeing that you are in the right place at the right time. You have the tools literally in the palm of your hand. If you haven’t done the ND, do it! Although you know he’s a narc, maybe having HG confirm it to you will be helpful. I see it like this: if somebody told you a dog was viscous and had attacked before multiple times, would you have to be mauled to believe it? “But he looks really sweet.” “He lets me pet him sometimes and really seems to enjoy it.” “He could never hurt me.” You’ve been snarled at, SF. You’ve seen the baring of the teeth. If you continue to engage, you will be mauled. It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when. You’ve seen the foreshadowing. You’ve been warned. Waiting around to be mauled isn’t a safe place for you sweetie. Believe HG. Believe other victims here that have experienced the mauling and lived to tell the story. Nothing good can come from continuing to engage. Do what you would advise your best friend to do. Look at it with logic. He’s a narcissist. He doesn’t love you. He never will. He will hurt you over and over as long as you will allow it. You have the strength, now is the time. Don’t get mauled.

          11. WokeAF says:

            Shelf fuel –
            It’s all a bunch of crap . He’s withdrawing bc his girl needs are being met elsewhere and shifting the blame onto you. He’s keeping you on ice by “talking” for a Hoover when his current fuel supply isn’t suitable or available.
            Every excuse is bull shit even if he believes it , it’s not the truth.
            Read as much of HG as you can

          12. Shelf Fuel says:

            OMG! He totally believes all of his shit. I’m fairly certain he believes his own lie about the fake funeral too.
            My social media post calling him out was so ambiguous and he got so fucking defensive. Such a child like saying “oh my gosh you know I’m lying and you’re calling me out? How dare you! You take it back!” That’s exactly what it felt like!!!

            If you’re going to tell a lie like that the best thing to do would be to not call attention to it in such a defensive manner. What a dumbass.

            So he’s taken away our intimacy and he has said that we are not making plans to see each other anymore for an undetermined amount of time. He still said we could have our weekly phone call though however today he called me in the morning before work and then after work and said he would call me tomorrow after work too so I’ve already gotten triple the amount of phone time this week that I usually get. I guess this is my “punishment” for testing him last week. That’s what he referred to it as he said “you’re testing me and I don’t like it”. 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️

          13. WokeAF says:

            Dude- is this really the best you think you deserve

          14. WokeAF says:

            Allowing a certain amount of phone calls lol! Just ghost this douche.

          15. HG Tudor says:

            Don’t use ghost, it is a modern term which is unhelpful. Plus ´ghosting´is associated with our behaviours. Use No contact instead. It is the correct label and distinguishes.

          16. WokeAF says:

            They like that we are a slobbering happy puppy and they’re the master. Then we become a beat dog- and are grateful just for basic attention. He gets off on this dynamic. Get out. Cut ties. Read HG. And do it without warning because ghosting is the BEST boost . It’s awesome. You feel amazing later that you did it. Look at ghosting as an investment in your own self-esteem that will pay off in a little while when your head clears .

          17. WokeAF says:

            Thanks HG
            My own personal experience, I know like it feels like you’re wrapped up in some sort of big romantic complicated situation .
            And it’s really not that at all
            It’s really simple if you’re DLS that means you don’t have either the required fuel, and/or the traits and benefits to be IPPS and that’s never going to change .
            Plus he almost certainly has at least one other shelf/ DLS on the go
            If you tell the wife she may or may not leave him, and there’s a good chance that she’ll stay with him and forgive him because he will bullshit her and gaslight her into believing it’s just this one time or that it’s her fault .
            And if she does leave him he’ll use the DLS until he finds an IPPS replacement that does provide the fuel and/or traits / benefits.

            It’s all just a massive waste of time and emotion because he doesn’t feel any of it .

            If you just ditch him and GOSO – for a while life will feel boring and you’ll probably feel like you’ll never meet anyone else like him . And you’ll be in massive danger of being Hoovered back in .
            But no matter what happens if you just keep reading HG and listening to the videos every night it’ll start to click in

            And then suddenly one day you’ll just be done . And it won’t even feel bad .

            You’re going to need something to fill in the empty place that he leaves, so I suggest a new job, a new social group, or support group .

            As DLS you think you’re special until you find out about the other DLS/shelf they have .

            Then you realize you were never special.
            You were literally interchangeable


        3. Caroline-is-fine says:

          There are usually 1 of 2 answers to almost every question you ask, about why he says/behaves the way he does with you: for FUEL or to protect his FACADE. I’m afraid it really is that simple; you sometimes seem to want to distract yourself off those truths, to feel hope. I understand that, but I’m sorry to say there’s no hope for anything healthy/good in this angst-ridden narcissistic relationship. MB gave you really good advice & sound logic.

          If you stay engaged in this, you will keep analyzing him — to try to convince yourself that it’s different than what it is: a narcissist behaving like a narcissist. It’s not romantic. It’s abusive. Him referring to you as “darling girl” is no mistake: he says that to cause your heart to anchor on it. He, in no way, treats you like that term of endearment suggests. He uses & hurts you (while intermittently applying sex to keep you latched onto him/fuel)…and then alleviates his shame (not guilt/it never leads to true remorse), with the “I’m a good guy”/pious gig, for the sake of his façade…and then starts right back up later, saying whatever’s necessary to reel you back (more fuel).

          He’s the one cycling manipulations and abuses; he’s aware what that’s doing to you, even if he doesn’t know he’s a narcissist…and now, yes, you’re so addicted that you’re actively pursuing him. I get it — it’s a 2-way street. But he’s the drug dealer.

          I have no hope for anything but continued pain with this narcissistic entanglement, so it makes me feel sad… but I *do* have hope in you, that you will choose to end it someday, Gabrielle.
          Caroline x

          P.S. You seem shocked that he’d lie about attending a funeral. But narcissists lie! They lie to get out of things — they lie for no good reason at all…they don’t experience guilt and have no empathy, so what’s to stop them from lying, about anything? How many more things has he lied about that would make you equally angry? His “moral code” on lying is to never get caught.

          1. WokeAF says:

            Fuel and Control
            Facade is mid range and greater I think the lessers don’t care that much

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Greater will operate a facade but it is of a different nature.

          3. ceyceyc says:


            having the same problem with “reply” . thank you for sharing your story. your determination impressed me. you are very strong

            actually it was a retorical question. i wanted to say: even regular men worry about to lose their wifes. it’s hard with married narc two times.

            i was thinking like SF very soon. it was hard to be “the other woman”. i thought that everything would be better if he wasn’t married. when i just discovered this site i figured i wasn’t a ipps. i was upset because of this. now i can’t believe myself. they say “the grass is greener on the other side” . this is the point. but nowhere is green with narc. there is no difference between ipps and dlc

          4. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Yep, “grass is always greener.”

            And too funny, that your question was rhetorical, yet I answered it.😂

          5. ceyceyc says:

            it’s my bad. English is not my main language. i make gramar mistakes so often. sometimes i can’t express myself. i never had to write in English too much(except homeworks)
            i should thank to my ex for contributed to my language practice haha

          6. Caroline-is-fine says:

            You do really well, ceyceyc.🙂 I understand you just fine!

            One of my close friends is Japanese (lives in Japan), and we email regularly. She is always apologizing for her “bad English,” but she also does quite well expressing herself in English. I am certainly not fluent in Japanese, so I feel rather guilty that she has to do all the hard work. However, for now, it would be a disaster if I attempted to hold a decent conversation in Japanese!

            It has been interesting to have her explain the parts of the English language that are harder for her (like, right now, I was about to use the expression “that trip her up,” but, instead, I changed it to “are harder for her,” because I know those colloquial native (English) expressions are among the confusing aspects for her). She is taking advanced English classes, and she often emails me questions about the nuances of English. Also because of her, I have eliminated contractions in this post to you, hoping that helps.😀

            I admire you persevering to write in a language as confusing as English can be. With English, there are so many “exceptions to the rule.” 😫

        4. ceyceyc says:

          i did. i sent a message to his wife. he made me angry once. I threatened him by saying I would write. he didn’t stop me. now i realize that he enjoyed it. i felt regret immediately but it was late.

          i don’t know what happend in their home later…he may have apologized, manipulated, have denied. i don’t know.
          just know she caught the messages of the woman before me. she may have to endure them because of their child.

          I thought he might kill me after that. we never talked for 20 days. then he sent a poem about the “yearning”. accepted him again. and of course he blamed me every single day. our relationship was never the same again

          can you see? nothing happens to that maniac. nothing changed. just a victim has wounded another victim

          I can’t tell you how sorry I am right now.
          I can’t imagine what she’s been through all these years.

          I understand love , I’ve lived…. but he’s never worth it

          1. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Wise council. I want to add one last thing, Gabrielle…as an IPPS for 3 years, you have no idea what you are dealing with, in terms of consequences of messing in their relationship…a relationship that is his most dependable “fuel/residual benefits/character acquisition” relationship. I have my own awful stories of just how far these narcissists can go, to maintain the wife or long-term girlfriend. My narcissist didn’t seem dangerous either — more of an edge than yours, yes — but how he mistreated and went after people who he felt were (or even may!) threaten our relationship is truly sickening to me, and yours is capable of that too. It was a slow dawning for me on that aspect, but it was not small stuff, and now I’m apprised of much of the “collateral damage.”

            So now that I have that full knowledge, I am telling you: You do not want the consequences…and instead of envy, I’d say try to put yourself in the wife’s shoes, with empathy for her own struggles, because she undoubtedly has them.

            I think he already considers you a potential threat to his IPPS, & has he let you know quite directly that he’ll do whatever it takes to keep his IPPS.

            Believe him.

            Get out.

          2. Shelf Fuel says:

            ” Wise council. I want to add one last thing, Gabrielle…as an IPPS for 3 years, you have no idea what you are dealing with, in terms of consequences of messing in their relationship…a relationship that is his most dependable “fuel/residual benefits/character acquisition” relationship. I have my own awful stories of just how far these narcissists can go, to maintain the wife or long-term girlfriend. My narcissist didn’t seem dangerous either — more of an edge than yours, yes — but how he mistreated and went after people who he felt were (or even may!) threaten our relationship is truly sickening to me, and yours is capable of that too. ”

            Accurate. He does consider me a threat but he said it to be in a different manner. He went off on a tangent about karma and how it is coming for him. How all he has done (i.e the girl before me that he got caught with with) will come back to him. How he cannot be caught again (with me) or wife will leave him. They had a new baby last year, why I have no idea (maybe to keep her from leaving probably). That went into a lecture about his guilt of “cheating on his kids”. I keep telling myself if he really loved her he’d dismiss me forever. When I (sort of) point it out to him he says that he refuses to be cruel to me and do that. That he loves me and will not “abandon me”. He says he feels “responsible” for me, that he needs to be there for me AND he insists he can do so in a healthy manner by not indulging intimately with me and just being my friend.

            But I definitely see what you are trying to say. Going after those who he felt may threaten his relationship. His claws came out last week when I questioned his life and the excuses he gave me.

          3. Shelf Fuel says:

            “…and instead of envy, I’d say try to put yourself in the wife’s shoes, with empathy for her own struggles, because she undoubtedly has them.”

            Why does it seem like she doesn’t? Why does it feel like she gets the rainbows and sunshine? That he saves the intermittent nastiness for me? Things were fine with him since February. February! And it tanked last week. I read all of what HG says. But why do I still feel that she gets the happily ever after?

          4. HG Tudor says:

            Because you won’t impose no contact, so your ET cons you.

            Narcissists always devalue the IPPS. The fact he occasionally fucks you behind her back is devaluation.

          5. Shelf Fuel says:

            I often hear him tell me…”If I get caught with you and she leaves me I will never ever speak to you again”

            That comment makes her seem super important. If she is really so damn important as he makes her out to be then why engage with me at all? Sexual or otherwise? Yes, I know you are going to say fuel. Fuel fuel fuel fuel fuel.

            If the tables were turned and I was the one who said that I wanted space? Or if I played a huge bluff and said
            “F you I am done” how would he react to that? Would he say “okay bye” or do a 180 and reel me back?

            I came close to turning the tables this week and threatening that but I lost my nerve.

          6. Caroline-is-fine says:

            You wrote:
            “Why does it seem like she doesn’t? Why does it feel like she gets the rainbows and sunshine?”

            For starters, he’s a serial cheater…that’s hardly bliss. That’s betrayal.

          7. ceyceyc says:

            “I think he already considers you a potential threat to his IPPS, and he knows you’re quite directly that he thatll do whatever he takes to keep his IPPS.”

            is this for Gabrielle or all of us? because that’s very true for me,

            i don’t think i was choosen as a dls at first. I had the potential to be his favorite slave. he wanted to have a baby with me . there seemed to be no wife. he was preapered for the replacement, i guess.
            but i was crazier,smarter,curious than he expected. i suspected that he has npd in early stage of our relationship. I think things have changed at this point. the challenge with ipps was started. i was punished most of the time. i didn’t settle down. and happy ending: he threw me out of the game

            even in ordinary affair stories, no one is willing to divorce. Does the narcissist ever do???

          8. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I couldn’t find a reply button to your question, below, so I’ll reply here. Although I was addressing Gabrielle’s situation, I do think it’s applicable to many scenarios. As to your divorce question, this is just my story, as IPPS (girlfriend)…

            My narcissist asked me to marry him very early on in the relationship, and I said: “I probably will someday” (he is significantly older than me/I was still in college). He also started talking about having babies with me, early on (even names for them!). It felt off to me (I’m super independent & was in no rush to get married). I thought it was way too much/too soon, but he is/was also distinguished, handsome, smart, accomplished & charming (<when he wants to be), and I was rather smitten with him. He also is very calm-acting (never once raised his voice to me), which is very important to me, as I covet peace…which is how I came to leave him — when my peace was greatly disturbed.

            He became increasingly controlling & did lots of manipulative tactics. I then left/escaped (after 3 years with him), and he (5 years after that) married someone else…he actually called me on his honeymoon, trying to get me back! Damn, that's stone cold, and I remember being on the phone with him…not even able to fully process what he was attempting!

            That's what I mean…people have no idea what they do, behind the scenes. I nipped that right in the bud…but a few years later, he divorced her.

            So yes, they can/do sometimes divorce the IPPS…HG got a divorce too.

          9. Shelf Fuel says:

            “But he is/was also distinguished, handsome, smart, accomplished & charming (<when he wants to be), and I was rather smitten with him. He also is very calm-acting (never once raised his voice to me), which is very important to me, as I covet peace"

            All of this describes my dynamic. I am scared. Scared of losing him. I know he is an ass. But when he is not an ass, it's perfect. I always think I can tolerate it until I can't. Everyone tells me to get out there and see who else is out there. I have tried, a few times, to put myself out there. To see who else is out there. No one else ever holds a candle to him. No one. I find myself comparing and I hate it. I don't judge purely on appearance (although there needs to be something that I find attractive). His intelligence and sense of humor attracted me first. His calmness too. (well until the moments he loses his shit via text). His music, good grief I cannot listen to it without my heart bursting. He is talented and intelligent. I too like you am smitten beyond compare. No one else seems to measure up. No one evokes similar feelings in me. No one else has made me feel such a strong attraction, on all levels. When I am in his vicinity the magnetic pull I feel to him is overwhelmingly intense where I feel empty without him. Empty. And I am scared that every and anyone else I ever meet will continue to not hold a candle to him. I close my eyes and all I see is him. I crave him in every possible way.

          10. Caroline-is-fine says:

            As a point of humor, you wrote: “I know he is an ass. But when he is not an ass, it’s perfect.”

            I mean, re-read that…lol😉

            But in all seriousness, I appreciate your vulnerability in sharing how you’re feeling. I know he seems like the be-all, end-all to you…but that’s because your addiction level is quite high. The only way to lower that so you can know what you really think/feel is to get away from him, to clear your head. It’s like being brainwashed. You don’t know you’ve been taken over by the Moonies until you’re outta there, baby.

            The thing is, Gabrielle, you are going through a great deal of pain to feel “in love.” And it’s making you feel intense jealousy and inadequacy — and, at times, seemingly out-of-control and desperate.

            Maybe something to ask yourself: At what cost will I keep something going that makes me feel so much weaker?

          11. MB says:

            SF, been there and done that too. I could have eaten that man alive such was my craving. It’s addiction. Plain and simple. Narcs are like opioids! You have to step away and detox before you can see them for what they truly are.

          12. Getting There says:

            Hello, Shelf Fuel.
            I’m sorry to see that you are still caught in the PB web. I keep hoping one day to find you post that you are beyond the other side of the emotional sea. It looks like you are hoping to become his IPPS and can’t imagine her having it bad since he appears to choose her. I have read the amazing advice and input the others have given and know that it is hard for you to see what they are saying for you at this moment. I wanted to try from a different angle considering your thought on his behavior with his wife. I think PB is an average narcissist and can offer you a better one. He is not like HG, sorry. The good things are that he is smart, funny, actively involved in the church, thinks physical cheating and physical abuse is beneath him, plays piano also, and he is a hands on dad. He appears as one of the rare great guys left and, while others believe you if you choose to share the negative, they won’t care and still want to be in his life. Not everyone, but those people can be explained. He will choose you but not the you that you want him to choose, the you he decides. What to be prepared for when you become his IPPS: that’s hard since he is intelligent and figures out what works on each person. I didn’t get the silent treatment; I would have loved that. If you have close family and friends, your relationships with them won’t be the same, if at all. There will be important events or time out you won’t go to. No, he won’t tell you what to do at all! He will give you his thoughts on your choices most of the time but you are left with the decision, and then the consequences of the decision even if you didn’t know his thoughts. That leads me to the important point that hopefully you like mysteries. You will spend your days wondering what kind of reaction he will have to things. Some days, the reactions will be kindness and understanding. There can even be jokes and laughter about it. Other days, the same thing will lead to him being angry. Unlike HG’s description of narcissists who go back to being good once they get the negative fuel the fight gave, he will continue to ensure you understand further the point of your mistake until he is fully satisfied. There are expectations, but they apply to you only. For example, I hope you don’t mind losing male friends unless he has approved them. On the other hand, he will have female friends and coworkers he likes to be around, but the good news is that you will know of at least one or two. He may even have you look over the email he is sending to “a friend” before he sends it. It’s for your sake to help you feel better knowing she is just a friend even if you have shared your feelings on that subject. Another won’t acknowledge your existence even as you give a friendly smile to her. Don’t take offense, she just wants your spot. He doesn’t want complete control as he seems to enjoy some of the challenge; again love mysteries as it won’t be obvious what day is a “love or allow” you to be independent and strong. I could go on but a lot of it is covered well within some of HG’s articles.
            I ask, as someone who was in the spot you want, that you please remember all is not as it seems. From what I read from HG, a DLS is basically treated well compared to an IPPS. Can you imagine what that means if you are treated like how you are now? You have shown to be ok with him and other women; you have shown to be ok with him clearly lying as well as other manipulations. There is no start over button if you became the IPPS and wanted to set new boundaries for a relationship.

          13. HG Tudor says:

            Of course it is all relative and linked to the school of narcissist and the position held in the fuel matrix.

          14. WokeAF says:

            Sf Oh god , if you just HAVE to see this through to the bitter end- Jesus don’t get pregnant. Don’t drag MORE kids into this.
            Plus whenever I have childless friends who are with a narc- Complaining about how hard it is to leave – I’m like , Are you serious? You can end this right now! Literally nothing is stopping you and it reminds me of a LOUIS CK bit where he says if you don’t have kids, you can just walk away. Once you have kids it’s impossible you basically have to go into the witness protection program , change your identity , leave The country lol not so far off from what it’s like to leave a narcissist

          15. Shelf Fuel says:

            No worries there Woke AF. I had a tubal ligation after my 3rd kid and I am sterile. Someone could have sex with me all day and I would not get pregnant. If only that special someone was knocking on my door….LOL.

          16. HG Tudor says:

            He won’t be so long as you keep the door open to the narcissist,SF.

          17. WokeAF says:

            SF even IF (doubtful you look young so the sheer numbers are in your favour) you never found anyone who compared to him
            I gotta ask – so what?
            Being single isn’t a curse. It’s an invitation to dig deep , and find many gifts that a freakin narc will never provide such as
            – personal values you can keep intact and unabused
            -serenity, peace, calm
            -self respect, dignity
            -enjoyment of your own company w/o needing a person to mirror your good stuff bc u already have access to it & awareness of it
            -no emotional roller coasters
            Plus the added bonus of being free, open and available to a healthy partnership of one appears.

            The magnetic pull between my MMR and I was palpable and we often referenced it.
            Now I know it was manufactured on his part to a large degree and whatever was real was the unhealthy narc-empath magnetism.

            IF it’s worth the pain, you wouldn’t be here.

            I recognize I’m tenacious when it comes to truth .
            For that reason ( and because for some reason I am able to recognize my emotions as not being “me” so it didn’t hurt) – I stayed w my MMR in a DLS situation A full year after consult with HG .- in order to try out and test everything he’s said here . I’ve done the fieldwork – so you don’t have to, if you don’t want to – I did it for you.

            – your self-esteem and dignity is low . At least in the romantic arena. If it wasn’t you wouldn’t be putting up with this . It’s not the narc you really need to address – it’s yourself . The Only way to do it is to get space so you’re out of the narc’s spell.

            – your narc is very much the same as every other .
            He doesn’t love you, he isn’t trying to protect you or not abandon you, he’s a selfish prick and he’s using you and he’s getting off on his own image of himself as some sort of protractor .

            – if he truly loved his wife he wouldn’t cheat on her.

            – if you truly cared about you he wouldn’t do this to you .

            The rest is all just blah blah blah . All the individual personal details don’t amount to shit .

            It’s painful to realize how simple it is but it’s also very liberating .

            You get what you settle for .

            And most of all, being an educated, Weaponized , aware empath is far more satisfying than anything a narc will ever do for you
            You can believe me on that .
            Or better yet don’t believe me – get out of the relationship, study your ass off -read everything HG has ever produced on repeat .

            Make yourself your next project .

          18. Shelf Fuel says:

            “I stayed w my MMR in a DLS situation A full year after consult with HG .- in order to try out and test everything he’s said here . I’ve done the fieldwork – so you don’t have to, if you don’t want to – I did it for you.”

            I continue to test everything and hope for different outcomes. As i said earlier things were fine since February. I guess I was foolish to think it’d be different this time.

            “– your self-esteem and dignity is low . At least in the romantic arena. If it wasn’t you wouldn’t be putting up with this . It’s not the narc you really need to address – it’s yourself . The Only way to do it is to get space so you’re out of the narc’s spell.”

            This makes sense. Those things are low. I am just scared that there is nothing else out there. One of HG’s articles used the term “howling wilderness”. That is kind of what I feel inside. A howling wilderness.

          19. ceyceyc says:


            again, i didn’t find right reply button. i guess we can’t reply “answers”, just can reply first comments

            it’s shame for me because i graduated from high school in advanced level. i studied in English for 7 years(of course this was 20 years ago lol ) my textbooks were from Oxford Press. my reading and listening skills are good but speaking and writing are poor. because it’s hard to find native speakers. now, technology makes life easier of course.

            it’s funny. i went to a Japanese class just for 7 months. Japanese is easier than English for me. Turkish and Japanese show some similarities. especially the pronunciation of japanese words are easiest because we use their alphabet as syllable in our words.(except tsu) the hardest thing is learning kanjis. haha.

            please tell your friend ; if she could memorize 2200 of the kanjis, she can learn every language in this world.hahah. i am sure she is better than me (except pronunciation of L letter. it’s problem for all Japan)

            The fairy tales (not HG’s articles hehe), children’s books and songs, tv series work well for practice

          20. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I can understand why HG’s fairy tales would help…but it also makes me laugh — all the naughty stuff you are learning in English, via (<by way of) his narratives.😎

            That is interesting, about similarities with your language & Japanese, and thank you – I will tell my friend your recommendation! I have the best conversations with her, and like you, she is conscientious — a quality I adore. I notice when she starts to incorporate words that I use into her own writing, and it is such a sweet compliment (not at all like when a narcissist copies/mirrors someone – done only to impress).

            I studied Spanish (only high school through college), but — no offense intended to Spanish speakers — I did not really enjoy speaking it. I play string instruments, and I realized a bit late that French feels so much more natural (to speak it) for me. It's lyrical, in a way that resonates with my musical ear. So that's my next language course to take.🙂

          21. Getting There says:

            You are correct, HG.
            I was being facetious. I don’t think PB is an “average narcissist.” I don’t even know if there is such a thing. I don’t think my ex is better nor am I truly offering him up to her. I was trying to show her from a different angle of the IPPS but obviously did not do it in the best way.

          22. ceyceyc says:


            once again, i’m impressed. i respect to everyone who can play an instrument. it’s a gift.

            i’m afraid HG will banned us soon. we talked about everything out of topic.

            here comes something about ex : it’s Eid time here. he used to send me Eid messages in early morning. what happenes when you tell a narc that he’s an abuser? he never send a message, even in Eids. i blocked him in everywhere but of course he can find a way if he wants
            apparently i won a new award : “The Best Ignored Supply “.

          23. Caroline-is-fine says:

            It is the best prize, ceyceyc…peace of mind. The longer my “No Contact” can go without him unexpectedly showing up in my work arena, the more relaxed I feel.

            His Hoovering cemented another aspect for me: any contact that is “let in” with a narcissist always, somehow, affects others as well (a trickle effect), and that is not okay with me. Narcissists use people (in intimate entanglement especially) to hurt other people in their sphere. Count me out!

            It is sad that people suffer with NPD. I feel compassion; they did not choose to have this disorder…but I also know it is not something I can help fix. I tried! So I walked away. As all Empaths know, that can be the harder thing to do (especially if you feel like you are abandoning them, which I have struggled with)…but when it is the right thing, any pain/distress can turn into greater strength & greater wisdom – for areas of life & people you *can* affect positively.

            I remind myself of all this, whenever my emotional thinking tells me I could have done more to help him.

          24. ceyceyc says:


            i agree with you.
            i’m a special education teacher. this helps me understand something,in a way. but of course this is not my professional life, I acted with my heart, not my head. but today most things are clear.

            i still don’t regret. it was a very incredible life lesson. i faced with myself

            you love French. then, the song of day is coming from Edith Piaf ; Non, je ne regrette rien(No, I do not regret anything )

          25. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Your occupation is a lovely contribution in the world. Thank you for the music piece mention~I am going to look it up/play it later tonight.🎵

            GOSO (<There. I added something about narcissism, so you don't worry about HG.😉)

          26. HG Tudor says:

            I never worry.

          27. Caroline-is-fine says:

            HG: Yes, I know YOU never worry…I was saying that about ceyceyc — so SHE doesn’t worry, as she was concerned you’d ban us for going off-topic.

            Not EVERYTHING is about you, HG.😂

          28. HG Tudor says:

            Yes it is.

          29. Caroline-is-fine says:

            HG: I will consider this retort of yours a chance for me to demonstrate just how much more control I can assert now over my challenge fuel, & I will not attempt to have the last word…

            Except to say you’re not correct.😎

          30. HG Tudor says:

            I think you will find I am!

          31. Caroline-is-fine says:

            I seriously forgot what I was bantering with you about😂…oh, right — just remembered. It’s time to bring out the Double Ds…Dynamite Diplomacy.🧨

            Yes you are right, HG. In your multi-faceted mind, everything is about you. Yes, I agree.

          32. HG Tudor says:

            Well done, I knew you’d get there in the end!

          33. Caroline-is-fine says:

            Ah, memories, of the backhanded compliment…where it seems nice, but then — wait 🤔– you’ve been (HG) power-handled.

        5. empath007 says:

          SF. I wanted to reply to this comment of WokeAF “I didn’t have to hit rock bottom I just had to really grasp the narcissistic worldview”

          I left my narcissist before “rock bottom” but because of the addictive nature I was not ready to leave him.. I just knew I HAD to leave before things got way worse then they already had. This was hard to do because at one point I thought I could handle just being in it for the sex…. and I was fooling myself. Ask any addict. THEY have to want to make the change in order for the change to be the most effective. So I understand if you are not ready it can seem a pointless venture the same way any addict would feel. The no contact does have to be genuine on your part and you have to be ready to heal.

          However, sometimes… you just have to put on your big girl pants and do it. This relationship is never going to go anywhere. EVER. You are LUCKY to not be married to this guy, that means you don’t have to go through the pain of a divorce with him, have him break your vows all the time by cheating, try to co parent with this monster. You can walk away right now and have little consequence compared to the IPPS. That’s NOT a crown you want to wear, you have to let go of the notion it will ever get better. It won’t.

          I think everyone here hopes you find the courage to leave, and to not settle for his bullshit anymore.

  12. WokeAF says:

    Funny story.
    Yesterday my kids dad (who we never hear from) saw me in town and came up to the car.
    I’ll keep it brief but basically he asked for a ride home and offered $5
    I thought about it and said “10.”
    He laughed
    I said “well you only do stuff if it benefits you, why should I be different?”
    Flash of fury. But he was gonna get the ride so he contained it with wry laughter

    5 minute drive.
    Easiest, most satisfying $10 I ever made.

    ( I DO NOT ADVOCATE BREACHING NO CONTACT my situation is perhaps unusual perhaps not )

    1. KellyD says:

      At least you profited from it.

    2. MB says:

      I’m surprised he paid! You must have gotten it up front.

      1. WokeAF says:

        I did. Heh.

  13. Sisty says:

    The inescapable logic goes like this, I think:

    1. a mid-ranger will never accept that he is an abuser;
    2. if a glimmer of self-recognition does come to the surface, it will be denied and pushed back down because;
    3. to admit that he is abusive would create an opening for the monster within to emerge and take over; which would
    4. annihilate him

    Question A: is this analysis correct?
    Question B; are all abusers narcissists?
    Question C: are all narcissists abusers (in some shape or form)?
    Statement D: there is no other option besides Get Out and Stay Out.

    Here are my guesses at answers:

    Question A: Yes
    Question B: Yes
    Question C: Yes
    Statement D: Yes

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Sisty,

      Question A
      1. Correct.
      2. Yes but there will be no awareness, the narcissism quashes this before it can reach the point of awareness.
      3. It is not so much as an admission, but an awareness (which would come before admission) which would cause The Creature´s appearance.

      Question B

      Question C

      Statement D
      Correct, if you want total freedom.

      1. Alexissmith2016 says:

        In the case of Bill and Hillary, you’ve previously mentioned he is a greater and she a mid. I understand he would use her because he sees benefit in doing so and will seek fuel elsewhere, she will have some residual benefits etc but and I’ll break this down into two simple questions which then warrant only a yes or no answer to save your fingers

        1) would she as a MR be addicted to him in a similar way an empath is addicted to an N?

        2) Or would she only see value in the residual benefits he has to offer?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. No.

          2. Her addiction is to the Prime Aims, primarily to fuel.

          1. WokeAF says:

            How much self awareness does he have , HG

          2. HG Tudor says:

            He is aware.

          3. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Gosh! Okay! That is really helpful.

            So when a mid range comes on your site BecuSe they wrongly perceive themselves as the victim, thst is BecuSe they have lost out on fuel before it had gone stale? and possibly residual benefits. And BecuSe they believe they have been abused.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            A Mid Range Narcissist that comes here will perceive they are the victim. They may perceive they are in devaluation (the True Victim or The Other Narcissist is rejecting their control) or the True Victim has escaped or The Other Narcissist has disengaged.

          5. Alexissmith2016 says:

            And thank you by the way

    2. WokeAF says:

      All abusers are narcissists! Really! I had thought there was wiggle room for say, someone who reacts abusively, that recognizes their patterns, gets help and changes behaviour .
      For example I used to get overwhelmed, lash out, then feel bad. My kids pointed it out to me, I did inner work, I adapted strategies to calm my emotions when overwhelmed so as not to snap. The behaviour, although understandable, was abusive. The whole external stressor thing. But it took me a few years of doing it occasionally, and my kids pointing it out- for me to recognize it as a pattern .
      My view is abusers won’t recognize the pattern due to the blame shift and won’t adapt to behavioural change in the long term

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Yes they are.

        There is a distinction between an abuser and someone who has engaged in an abusive behaviour.
        The former is a narcissist who does this routinely and will not permanently alter.
        The latter is someone who has engaged in a behaviour which may be viewed as abusive (and it is not always seen that way) because of the external stressors presence. Note you admit you only did it occasionally AND it was as a consequence of an external stressor, that does not make you an abuser.

        1. WokeAF says:

          i Thought about it and abusers do tend to just repeat the abuse even if they apologize . And even w an apology there always a blameshift… dang ! Wow.

          1. Shelf Fuel says:

            Woke AF, Piano Boy does apologize to me. But blames me and calls me crazy too.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            He wouldn’t if you applied no contact.

          3. WokeAF says:

            SF yeah they apologize and sometimes even tweak their behaviour for a brief period. Then it’s back to same old. Usually the apology consists of “yeah I shouldn’t have said/done this/that BUT if YOU had/hadn’t said/done this/that then I wouldn’t….blah blah blah”
            Rinse and repeat.

          4. Caroline R says:

            (to Gabrielle) ” he wouldn’t if you applied no contact”

            You made me laugh!

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