The Narcissist and Film
The recent analysis of the television programme “Big Little Lies” provided an opportunity to see a number of narcissists from a variety of schools “in action” with a wide range of portrayals.
With your improved knowledge and understanding, here is an opportunity for you to identify and explain those films where you consider that a main character is a narcissist and why. The floor is yours. Identify the film and the character (and you can do as many as you wish) where you believe that film to amount to an excellent portrayal or a “best fit” portrayal of a narcissist.
Remember, it is the character(s) not the person playing them that are identified as narcissists.
Let’s see who you suggest and feel free to constructively debate the choices of others. This will enable you to flex your learning and potentially have exposure to some further information and learning through either fictional film or television programme.
243 thoughts on “The Narcissist and Film”
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Gone With the Wind
Scarlett O’Hara – Upper Lesser
Rhett Butler – Upper Greater
Ellen O’Hara – Matrinarc
Gerald O’Hara – Standard Carrier Empath
Ashley Wilkes – Magnet Super Empath
Melanie Wilkes – Standard Magnet/Geyser Empath
Mammy – Magnet/Carrier Super Empath
Scarlett O’Hara- histrionic, entitled, no empathy, exhibitionist, selfish, manipulative, flirtatious and controlling. I pegged her as an Upper Lesser because she was born from a wealthy family but she lacked control of her fury. She didn’t care about anyone except for Tara which was the symbol of the privileged lifestyle that she believed she deserved. She idealized Ashley but never really cared about his happiness nor did she try to get to know him as deep as Melanie does because she wasn’t interested in knowing the real Ashley, she just wanted to obtain him as a trophy. She blame shifted to Melanie when she had to take care of Melanie who was giving birth instead of going back to Tara. She also did a lot of pity play.
Rhett Butler- he is fully aware of what he is, “I believe in Rhett Butler. He’s the only cause I know. The rest doesn’t mean much to me.” He enjoys watching Scarlett get emotional with him, get upset with him, beg him to not join the Confederate Army, etc. He was very controlling even with what she wore, “And those pantalettes, I don’t know a woman in Paris who wears pantalettes.” He didn’t display genuine empathy and enjoyed seeing people’s reaction whenever he broke social norms such as when he bought Scarlett who was still mourning in a charity auction and when he agitated the men in the party with his opinions regarding the war. He also gave Scarlett the ‘narcissist’s seductive stare’ when she first saw him. Scarlett describes that stare as, “He looks as if, as if he knows what I look like without my shimmy.” He did nice things to people but in a way where he would get fuel from them, status or profit but while doing those good deeds, there was no evidence of real empathy from his face. In the end he discarded Scarlett without giving a damn.
MommyPino: Do you understand Scarlet`s infatuation with Ashley Wilkes? Did not Scarlet and Rhett marry in Part 2 or something like that? I remember reading somewhere that they did marry?
Hi PSE, My interpretation is that Scarlett had the same infatuation to Ashley the same way that HG has with his Angel Amanda. The image of Ashley that she had put on a pedestal in her mind is her version of perfection, an unattainable trophy that is displayed in a glass curio cabinet on a pedestal. It’s not a human being to her. When Melanie was dying and Ashley was crying to Scarlett about how much he loves Melanie and that when Melanie dies she will be taking everything that he has with her, Scarlett blame shifted to Ashley saying that she wish that Ashley told her a long time ago that he really loves Melanie. Scarlett was wrong. Ashley said it to her in different ways so many times but she didn’t listen because she didn’t care about Ashley’s real feelings. She didn’t care about Ashley as a human.
Scarlett and Rhett got married but their marriage was horrible. They take turns on who will be mean to the other, who will triangulate, who will give silent treatments etc. Years ago when I saw this movie I was blaming Scarlett for being a yinyang and I was imagining myself in her shoes that I would be good and faithful to Rhett unlike Scarlett. It’s funny how that has changed now with everything that I know now from HG’s works. Rhett was abusive to Scarlett and he is a narcissist. At times he would make you doubt that he is a narcissist especially with how good he is as a father to their daughter but I have decided that it is just because he is a Greater and has higher cognitive empathy skills than Scarlett. In the end he used their dead child to triangulate Scarlett as he was discarding Scarlett. It really is a pretty interesting movie with a lot of interesting characters.
Mommy Pino: Thank you. Fantastic info.
My pleasure PSE!
MommyPino! Well done on your latest Avatar! Hahahaha! Brava!
Hahaha thanks PSE! I thought I wanted to do something different. 😊
White Oleander: Michelle Pfeiffer’s character
Ordinary People: The character played by MTM
Euphoria: Nate and his father
White Oleander! Yes, Michelle Pfeifer! Totally.
Thanks to you all for making my weekwee of “silent treatment ” fun and interesting!! Big appreciation.
I disagree about Nate’s dad though. I think Nate is a little higher up on the food chain than straight narc with his propensity for violence and law breaking. As depicted in the scene with his brother.
Euphoria is a show which certainly delivers….
Nate’s dad is a Greater I think- he knows what he is and what Nate is.
Nate is a MR and a psychopath.
In the scene at the hotel with his gay lover, Nate’s dad shows remorse and guilt about his behavior and it’s impact about what it did to his sons. Narcissists do not feel remorse and guilt. However, I do agree with you about Nate’s psychopathy.
False contrition. To get fuel , feel like a “good” person
Perhaps, you are correct. It was not my sense though. Dad genuinely seemed to be suffering. He wasn’t looking for fuel. Nate’s dad actually stopped the foreplay leading to great sex, to sit on the bed and talk about the feelings which plagued him.
-1) he knows his son committed a violent crime but instructs him not to take responsibility , even is alright with him on getting himself off the hook by any means necessary
But also;
2) He has continuous gay affairs (one w a minor) behind his wife’s back .
He’s a narcissist.
Be careful not to superimpose your empathy and feeling onto him- this is often our problem
“In the scene at the hotel with his gay lover”
– he stops to sit and talk about his feelings (?!)
The second part doesn’t cancel out the first. The first sentence says enough right there. But add to that…
HIS feelings. He’s cheated on his wife , led a secret life, (-lack of empathy, entitlement)
But he’s feeling sorry for HIMSELF because his high achieving extension (son) might face backlash for a violent crime.
He has no empathy for the person his son assaulted- it’s all about HIMSELF , all of it.
In that scene Nate’s dad reveals a good deal. He says to the john, “”Do you think this stuff affects them even if they don’t know it? Do you think hiding it creates the same thing in them? you know I spent my whole life trying to keep this part of me separate. But I feel like it’s poisoned everything. I thought that I was doing what’s best for everybody and then I love my boys and they have so much anger, not just anger but rage and it scares me because it’s too late it’s always going to be inside them.”
My interpretation of the scene is that he has true remorse of his behavior and real fear of his son. He is speaking of the guilt of his BDSM activities in retrospective way, knowing it’s effects.
Plenty of men and women cheat on their spouses and engage in kink, many do not particularly feel remorseful especially if their partners are not interested in that and/or they feel ashamed by this behavior, or they are ashamed have bisexual tendencies. Shame is a huge reason many hide things. This alone does not warrant a diagnosis of NPD.
Later on in the series Nate’s Dad is both horrified and frightened by his son’s behavior. His sense of guilt over Nate finding out his own lifestyle could be the reason he helps Nate with the police.
Respectfully, I disagree with your assessment. It has nothing to do with my being empathetic.
That sounds like the Emotional Thinking Voice that makes excuses, inserts empathy and rationalization and glosses over the Narcissist’s actual actions.
I don’t think it’s helpful to encourage ET even in one’s assessment of a tv character . It encourages the ET Voice over the Logic Voice
Ppl who have multiple affairs with prostitutes, mistresses, etc etc and don’t feel one bit bad or have any remorse are almost certainly narcissists
Lots of good choices noted by everyone here! I’ll add these since they were not yet mentioned:
Series:
Netflix series “You” with the character Joe as the narcissist psychopath with murderous control
Bravo series, “Dirty John” based on a true story of a narcissist sociopath, John Meehan, with murderous impulses.
Movies:
“Gone Girl,” Rosamund Pike’s character as a narcissist psychopath with murderous extremes.
“Catch Me If You Can,” Leonardo DiCaprio’s character, I would guess somewhere between an UMRN to MGN, charming and manipulative with believable ease.
“To Die For,” Nicole Kidman’s character as a LGN I would guess as she seductively manipulates young men to murder for her.
FYC: I love Rosamund Pike. I find she makes any movie better than it should be. Girl crush. I became confused during Gone Girl. Maybe now that I know more, I plan to watch it again. I remember thinking at the time, that Gone Girl played as if 2 different directors put the film together. I also thought Ms. Pike was too good for Ben Afleck`s movie. (disclaimer: I do not like Ben Afleck), A waste of her talent. The second half of Gone Girl seemed like an altogether different movie than the first half, to me. I need to watch it again. Thanks. I never was much of a Nicole Kidman enthusiast. I never considered her overly beautiful, so I was mystified about why she felt the need to `de-beautify` herself in certain movies. But doing so worked for her, I guess. However, I like her more since Big Little Lies. HG Tudor may just have rectified and saved her career in my eyes: I sort of like her now, as an actress.
There is a Turkish series on Netflix called Phi (Fi). The main caracter Can Manay is a psychologist, with a tv show. He plots, plans, sceems , uses blackmail on his way to the top. Probably a greater somatic?
I like the character of the extremely charming and manipulative Duncan Allen(played by Ben Chaplin) in Press aired on the Beeb last year set in the world of British journalism.
That was a good series.
Gossip girl has a lot, Blair Waldorf, Chuck Bass, his father Bart Bass, his wife and mother of Serena, lily van der Woodsen.
Prince of Tides: the main character is Tom Wingo, ULN (Nick Nolte).
He seems to have some cognitive empathy but it’s mostly for himself. He deflects, has rage, he cheats, used withdrawal and some pity plays.
Carlito’s Way: Main character is Carlito (Al Pacino).
He’s an ex-con who get’s involved in drugs, violence and the mafia after being released from prison on a technicality.
Scarface: Tony Montana (Al Pacino).
“In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women.” – Empire top 100 movies. (it’s all about the fuel, control and superiority)
Inglourious Basterds: one of the main characters was Hans Landa, a.k.a. The Jew Hunter (Christoph Waltz).
“Defining moment: Landa’s cold-blooded cabin monologue to a farmer he suspects of sheltering Jews is a sinister mix of slippery charm, high intellect and outright villainy. As is he.” – Empire: top 100 movies.
To this list I was wondering how people feel
About Ryan goslings character in The Notebook. I know the characters end up happily ever after… but I beleive his persistence in the beginning that give the impression of being romantic is actually More manipulative. His eyes in the first scene he sees her are more indicative of a seduction stare. And they argue a lot…. then he’s emotionless with the other women while still highly idealizing the “one that got away” (although he doesn’t string them both along)
I don’t think his character is meant to be a narc but I look at the behaviours less romantically now.
Empath: Regarding the Notebook: It is said that the 2 characters did not like each other in real life. Even though they did date a bit after the release of the movie, after they met up during a press release event to promote the movie, at some later point. But those 2 are on a list of actors that actually did not like each other when making a film. That hidden from the general public animosity may have affected how they related to each other in the movie, and you may have picked up on some of that dislike. I did not see the movie, so I can not say. I think it is funny or hilarious how people that actually do not like each other are pushed on us film watchers to show us what romance looks like. hahaha
The character Jasmine played by Cate Blanchett in Blue Jasmine.
The quintessential upper mid ranger. She is totally self centred and plays the poor maligned victim to a T.
Another one is Hyacinth Bucket the social climbing snob from the TV series Keeping Up Appearances. She is extremely controlling, creates endless drama and everything revolves around her.
Laura, Yes! That character in Blue Jasmine is very much like my Elite Midle Mid Ranger half sister.
Bouquet!!!!
What about Mr Big, in Sex and the City? Particularly the episode when he has heart surgery and Carrie gives up her life to take care of him, then one morning, he’s better, gets up and kicks over the dominoes and pulls away when she goes to smooth his hair.
He’s Narky many other times, but today episode is classic
Also Samantha, wearing her mask as a man eater for fuel.
Last Tango in Paris – both Paul and Jeanne. I was not even born when the movie was realised but there was a retro cinema in my hometown when I watched it.
Vanilla Sky – David
The Barber of Siberia- Jane
Robbie in Dirty Dancing. He was a womanizer and had no empathy for Penny whom he got pregnant. He was abusive to Lisa as well. He was verbally provocative to a lot of people and felt superior.
Kieran in Dinner for Schmucks is a good caricature of a Somatic Narcissist. I’m thinking Upper Lesser Somatic. His artworks are very crass and sexually suggestive. He has huge entitlement, grandiosity, he is an exhibitionist, and promiscuous.
Biff in Back to the Future.
Sister Hildegarde in the movie Philomena was a holy narcissist. She forced Philomena to give up her child for adoption. She had no empathy or remorse. When questioned about preventing mother and child from reuniting she said, “Let me tell you something. I have kept my vow of chastity my whole life. Self-denial and mortification of the flesh is what brings us closer to God. Those girls have nobody to blame except themselves.”
Prince Hans in Frozen is a narcissist.
Princess Anna is a Standard Geyser Empath.
Queen Elsa is a Savior Super Empath.
Kristoff is a Carrier Super Empath.
Prince Hans meets Princess Anna and love bombs her and makes her feel that he is her soul mate. He tells her that he is the youngest of 13 princes and that three of his brothers pretended that he didn’t exist for two years (silent treatment from fellow narcissist brothers and lack of control environment). Prince Hans manipulated the people of Arendelle to believe that he is a good person who has Anna’s best interest at heart (facade) so that he can make Queen Elsa look like the villain. When Princess Anna’s horse came back without her after she went after her sister Queen Elsa, Prince Hans organized a rescue party to bring Anna back and secretly tells two men to kill Queen Elsa if they encounter her. When Queen Elsa accidentally strikes Princess Anna and Kristoff takes Anna to the trolls for help, the trolls told them that only an act of true love can heal her so Kristoff brought Anna to Prince Hans who now holds Queen Elsa in prison. Prince Hans told Anna that he doesn’t love her and he only went after her because he couldn’t get to Elsa. He said that now he is just going to let Anna die and he will kill Elsa. This makes me think that he is a Greater.
Good analysis. Was this one of the movies you played while the handyman was there?!
Thank you Joanne! Lol no, but I have seen this movie several times last week because it’s currently my daughter’s favorite movie. 😊
Dearest HG. The Film: The Day of the Jackal – 1973 staring Edward Fox as the assassin code named, The Jackal: The Narcissist is the Assassin: Type: Lesser Greater Somatic. Assessment: `Main Qualifier: He knows what he is.
Other Narcissistic Behaviors:
`A Lack of Emotional Empathy – He tells those that hired him that they failed in the past because they were too emotional. Next, he orders the weapon and makes the specifications for the kill shot to the gunmaker, as if he were ordering tea or coffee.
`A Sense of Entitlement – He wants the best of the best in cars and clothing and dwelling and women
`The Need For Control – He limits his client`s ability to contact him and assist him in the job.
`The Response to Threat of or Loss of Control – He will kill when possible whomever gets in his way
`The Telling of Lies – Takes on mulitple identities with skill and aplomb
`Grandiosity – Very well spoken and well dressed and charming despite poor background
`Manipulative Behaviors – He manipulates his way into the gay guy`s apartment
`Magical Thinking -He believes he will complete and get away with the assassination
`Haughtiness – He believes he is the best assassin there is
`Black and White Thinking – When asked if the job could be done, he answers definitively, yes.
`Acquisition of Property Belonging To Another – He steals vehicles, identification, whatever is needed
`Boundary Violation – He goes to the Baroness` estate uninvited
`Denial – Although he is aware of the strength of the detective pursuing him, the assassin is in denial that he may be caught.
~~~~~~~And a special treat from me, PrincessSuperEmpath, to all: BONUS FILM: Dream Lover (1993):
Actress: Mädchen Amick is the Lesser Greater Somatic Narcissist and Actor James Spader is the Super Empath Sitting Target. This film, Dream Lover, may just be a reader favorite of all that have read HG Tudor`s book, Sitting Target. HG, I think a `cliff` event may be in this film as well. This film is Unbelievable. PSE Approved ]~~~~~~
Johnny Depp in The Libertine – no empathy, huge sense of entitlement, superior attitude, triangulation and addicted to sex. If I’m correct on him being a narcissist then I’m going to say he’s a greater…
Denise: It seems to be a case of all Narcissists are Libertines and all Libertines are Narcissistic. It seems that Johnny Depp never seemed happier than after he discovered he could not only get away with wearing eyeliner and blush and lipstick and various other cosmetics, but he also would be paid very well while doing so. He is probably a somatic anyway and was playing himself in the film, Libertine.
Ohhh okay!! Thank you! I thought he was but didn’t know what kind. I’m slowly learning. Thank you and you have a wonderful day!
In “Something Borrowed”
Kate Hudson’s character is a somatic Narcissist. When I watched it again after a few years I couldn’t believe it. The story line would definitely not work out that way in real life though.. the friend rachel should have ran far away from her fiance.
Empath: I never saw a Kate Hudson film: I know of her because I am a Major League Baseball fan, and I considered her a lightweight because during an interview, when she was dating Alex Rodriquez, she was asked if she thought Alex would step out on her, and she answered, No, because she said she knew where Alex was at all times. I said what??? You really think you know where someone is at all times?? Of course, that relationship fizzled out. I was not surprised. So, I put that movie with her that you mentioned on my list. Maybe she knew where her lines were at all times, while acting in that movie.
First I’d recommend reading the book! Like most the book is more entertaining then the movie. Emily Giffin is one of my favourite authors. If you enjoy “chick flicks” which are well written and at times suspenseful check out her books 🙂
Kate plays the portrayal of a stereotypical narc in the film. It’s a cute film but definitely would start with the book
Yes! I agree! One of my favourite movies and I watched it again recently and thought the same thing! Kate’s character is definitely a somatic narcissist and she reminds me of an old friend of mine.
Black Swan. Natalie Portman plays a codependent who is a professional ballerina. He mother is a borderline/narcissist, and many of the players at the acadamy are narcissist out to sabotage her success. She ultimately flips out, and beats them at their game, while dying at the end.
Hi anm…i think natalie plays a borderline as well. Many narcissistic parents in the dance industry ive seen it first hand but that goes for any competitive arena!
Anm: I like your assessment of that film. Black Swan. You packed a lot of interesting info. in a few words. I wish many professional film critics could learn to do the same. I would be able to sift through and watch more product, if they would do so.
Re : Brevity
True. It benefits everyone in getting to more. I imagine HG endorses this policy highly.
Trainspotting and T2: Francis “Franco” Begbie is the best portrayal of a Classic Lesser I have ever seen.
Good point. Middle Lesser I would suggest, no self awareness and low threshold on ignited fury. I am always entertained by the snooker and bar scene, the different recollection go Begbie and Tommy are a neat demonstration of the distortion caused by the narcissistic perspective.
ML really?
Good god, what does a LL look like?!
Good call on Begbie
He is very much like my babydaddy’s Oldest brother, who may be the only LL I know personally , if I’m correct on that. Wouldnt surprise me if Begbie is a LL
bottom of the narc pile
Man, I need to stay in more! I can’t sit still long enough to watch TV or films.
Succession on HBO. Many narcs in that one.
And looks like the upcoming movie ‘Joker’ will be one:
Amazing trailer:https://youtu.be/zAGVQLHvwOY
Yes, a family that is chockfull of them.
Stronger: I just watched your trailer on: Joker. Thank you. Interesting. Regarding the Psychological background story for this Joker rendition, including the addition of his dying mother`s wishes for him to take more from the city for himself, I read: Phoenix says this will be a different take than Ledger`s Joker as well during an interview with Entertainment: `Still, when he’d find himself drilling down on a mental diagnosis for the Joker’s psychological breakdown, he steered himself in a different direction.` ~~Entertainment.
“I wanted the freedom to create something that wasn’t identifiable. This is a fictional character, and I didn’t want a psychiatrist to be able to identify the kind of person he was,” Phoenix continued. “We were getting into medication and what issues he might have, but [I thought] let’s step away from that. We want to have the room to create what we want.”
“Throughout the course of shooting, every day felt like we were discovering new aspects of the character and shades of his personality, up until the very last day,” ~~Joaquin Phoenix
Joker hits theaters Friday, Oct. 4
It might be the creepiest Joker yet because Phoenix is playing himself.
NA: Hahahahaha!
How about Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction? The crazy ‘bunny boiler’..
She’s a codependent and a Dirty Little Secret of the Mid Range Narcissist that is the character of Michael Douglas.
Glenn Close appeared to portray more of an unleashed borderline personality disorder versus classic CoD.
Agree. Also.
FYC, yes definitely not a Codependent.
Not sure about BPD. She cuts her wrists, lashes out, etc. but BPDs are supposed to have empathy. The woman played by Glenn Close doesn’t seem to have any.
EmP: Emotional Thinking turns its eyes away from and tip toes away from feeling empathy.
EmP: The DSM defines BPD as, “A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. Markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.” Statistically, BPDs are the highest suicide risk (50x greater than the general population per Psychology Today). From what I have read on cluster B, there is a debate as to the type or degree of empathy they may possess.
FYC thanks for the clarifications. To be honest I don’t know much about BPD but, if I remember correctly, HG said BPDs do possess empathy (Princess Diana for example).
Looking forward to HG’s article on the subject to better understand.
EmP, I look forward to learning more as well.
This character is an interesting case.
According to Glenn Close, in the original ending, her character committed suicide but before she had provoked a finale struggle, in order to get the footprints of her former lover all over her place, and when her body was found, he would be the prime suspect.
Glenn Close thought that this ending filled her character with dignity and not the vengeful lunatic that could emerge from the bathtub after being drowned.
So, in this original ending:
1) She designed a plan to kidnap the child, made the mother drove nuts, and her lover freaked (calculated behavior)
2) She would certainly attained her aim without remorse (do we have a Greater finale manipulation? Fuel included?
Anybody?
Dearest HG. What happens, or what type of event is it, or what is it called, when a Non narcississt decides to not be pushed aside. Like Glenn Close in: Fatal Attraction. Also, Anjelica Houston refused to be pushed aside in: Crimes in Misdemeanors. Both women were dead at the end of each movie. Both women, that were both IPSSs/DLSs, refused to be pushed aside. Both were killed.
Glenn Close´s character was a narcissist. I cannot comment on Anjelica Houston´s character as I have not seen the film.
I knew it! I was just thinking the bunny boiler had to be a narc
HG: Thank you for your verdict. Do you mind shedding light on where BPD fits on the spectrum if at all? Given written descriptions, it’s hard to discern between NPD and BPD except for the suicide part. Very many similarities.
This will be addressed in future work, FYC.
Thank you, HG.
FYC—I think many of those pegged BPD are narcissists after having touched on with HG at one point. The problem.. Who is doing the diagnosing? An empathic person can be quite broken and hit enough bullet points in the DSM to trigger this diagnosis. So, I think HG is likely aware of this. In my professional life I don’t care if this diagnosis is in a chart. I independently assess what I see because this “diagnosis” alone is not an exclusive indicator of who may be a narcissist or not. I’m capable of managing behaviors and when I see people seeking attention for negative behaviors this is a big red flag as opposed to what is written—not teens or kids either. I can highly suspect narcissism in a teen but it’s an inappropriate label to give during a developmental period, though admittedly if they are setting fires, molesting other kids, etc— it’s a given most of the time and simply not a true branding given until the adult age generally speaking.
BPD sounds “worse” than a narcissist in a clinical setting to most clinicians, nurses, doctors. Why? Because they are notoriously difficult to deal with due to what is likely negative fuel seeking behavior. Narcissism isn’t well developed in traditional didactics and infrequently diagnosed so the flavor of disdain is not substantial like with BPD. A BPD diagnosis sets a patient up to be perceived as a pain in the ass and is off putting. It is absolutely crippling. ** Each clinician must be able to make independent observations because this label can absolutely throw an empath to the wolves. I’m sensitive to this. I am especially sensitive to it because I’d like to slap the piss out of a few arrogant “friends” for how they denigrate some of the patients behind their back. Not narcissists but know it alls who don’t know it all. In a clinical setting we are always looking for what is wrong with patients. We fail to focus on what is right much of the time. “Personality disorder write offs” have me furious right now and especially toward one psychiatrist which is why I’m rambling. I’m tired of people being written off as shit bags because they “feel axis 2.” It’s bullshit. The personality disorder elements in the DSM are archaic and should be written in hieroglyphs. The summary of this is not to trust someone is a narcissist based on this diagnosis by a random clinician. If HG were to go out of the gate not clearly stating this he would disservice a percentage of those diagnosed in my opinion. Empaths (myself) are guilty of shit boundaries, and somehow weak boundaries and emotional irregularities pique the suspicion for a “disorder.” I personally am not overly emotional per se in a crying kind of sensitive manner but those that are can get railroaded. My emotional thinking is more irritation focused and angry I think—just an individual difference perhaps. It’ll be fascinating to read his eventual work on this, in the meantime I’m being a pain the ass myself with these few clinicians by challenging their rudimentary biases on these matters. It’s done collegially of course but I like a good debate.
Lorelei, I have no doubt there are many incorrect diagnoses and many useless clinicians (I’m sure you witness this first-hand in your line of work too). We are all reading here because HG has developed a far more accurate and complete model of narcissism, and he brilliantly illuminates its far reaching effects for all involved. HG also deeply understands empaths and how and why we attract narcissists, and more importantly, effective methods for dealing with narcissists. There really is no comparison. I also agree that the DSM is ill defined and lacking from the little I have read thus far. As for people that dismiss patients that suffer from anything, they seem to lack understanding, empathy and compassion.
Agreed FYC. 100%. That’s my real fear, if we label BPD as narcissism think of the self flagellation the “non narc borderlines” will experience! Who cares about the the true narc “borderlines.” They will dismiss it anyway. I see them certainly, it’s just that not all truly are. It’s a very damaging diagnosis to an empathic person. I’ve never been labeled as such but it’s highly undesirable.
Lorelei, I am sensing someone may intimated you could be BPD as a way to dismiss or hurt you? If so, don’t worry. Rise above the smear (which would also prove them wrong). We have seen on this blog there are many reasons why an empath could be either highly emotional or temporarily have their empathy suppressed, and therefore be misunderstood. HG teaches us to understand the circumstances surrounding misclassifications and in so doing helps us to look deeper to avoid rushing to a false conclusion.
No not at all, I’m sensitive due to having a few friends that have some diagnostic criteria (one may have enough to “qualify”) and are absolutely not narcissists. I tend to think of those who are more sensitive emotionally and this includes some of the people seeking services in my work. The bigger picture tends to play in my mind with labels. Frankly with patients we are always schooled to think what is wrong with them—we need to focus on what is right just as much. I’m no where near BPD behavior though.
Sorry, Lorelei, I was not at all saying you are one; I just thought perhaps your strong feelings were from a personal matter (a smear). Your compassion for your friends is laudable, and I agree it is far better to see the whole person and all that influences their experience before entertaining a diagnosis.
The smear was basically that I was a bipolar alcoholic. If I ever mentioned his unusual behavior I was suddenly bipolar. I did drink a lot and can barely stand a drink now. He’s a disgusting waste of oxygen consumption so there is that. I think I’m supposed to feel less repulsed eventually. I don’t have any of the disorders he suggested, although from his perspective I was an alcoholic (which I’ve learned here—he had no clue what he was instinctively creating!) but he caused the platform for a need to cope.. It is kinda like blame shifting although it is what it is—it was extreme stress. I will never have a need to drink a lot again—I wouldn’t tolerate a decline of such proportion in my life. I was utterly baffled. The good thing is that this has created an opportunity for a lot of good things but I’m not sure quite what they will all be.
Lorelei, I am happy to hear you survived that and have a new outlook with many opportunities for a bright future.
Have you ruled out narcissist for Glenn Close in fatal attraction? If so, why?
Hello NA. No, but my understanding is there is a fine line between BPD and NPD in the cluster B category. So on a linear scale of lacking empathy it would be BPD, NPD, APD, Schizophrenia (complete lack). I have read articles that make a case for no empathy in BPD and others that say some levels are possible for BPD. I have only come in contact IRL with one diagnosed BPD at work. She demonstrated a kind of self-serving pity/empathy and was highly emotional, but showed no evident empathy for others. She was very manipulative. I am certainly no expert and am not suggesting anyone go by my assessment, as it is only an opinion like everyone here. It would be great to get HG’s take on BPD and where it fits in his model.
FYC
I asked because I had not considered it previously (her being a narcissist). I was recalling a lot of boundary breaking and manipulation, but it has been a long time since I saw the movie so I wondered if you had seen it more recently and could apply what we’ve learned here to rule it out. I know someone who has been diagnosed with BPD who fits the description you provide for the person you worked with except that this person has cut herself badly for attention (I don’t call it a suicide attempt because she makes sure death is not the outcome). She is the daughter of a histrionic (diagnosed) and a narcissist (as told to the histrionic by her therapist but he was not formally diagnosed, and I agree). What a fun family that is. In any case, I thought Glenn Close had BPD in Fatal Attraction when I watched it but then I started to wonder, so was interested in what you thought.
NA, I too saw the movie a long time ago. I think the staged suicide attempt you speak of would be consistent with BPD, but also NPD depending upon the setting. In reading about both BPD and NPD there are so many similarities that the only two take-aways that seemed to describe any real differences were the degree of calculation/control versus unregulated emotional impulses and the suicide aspect (far greater numbers in BPD than NPD per many different sources). That person at work (we did not work together) was quite emotionally unstable and disruptive and was ultimately let go as a result. There were several Ns there as well, but most were far more effective at work.
A wonderful example of the seductiveness of evil and narcissism is David Bowie’s Goblin King in Labyrinth.
He says, “I ask for so little. Just let me rule you and you can have everything that you want.”
“Just fear me. Love me. Do as I say, and I will be your slave!”
Sarah is only set free when she declares, “You have no power over me!”
Well spotted.
Was David Bowie a narc himself?
I have not analysed him.
”The Last Castle”
With James Gandolfini and Robert Redford. Gandolfini’s character experiences a narcissistic injury in the beginning of the movie(cuz he was listening at the door lol) Its the reason why the story unfolds like it does.
Secretary. James Spader.
Red pen.
I’m not sure about a beautiful film, “On Golden Pond “ whether there was any narcissism in it between the father and daughter from her years growing up always feeling inadequate because of his remarks, and if his stubbornness was just from getting old or just who he always was. He also ended up humiliating his new step grandson who had become his summer buddy. That was a great movie.
The character “Him” (played by Javier Bardem) in Darren Aronofsky’s Mother! is not only one of your kind, HG, he is an archetypal Narc. He lovebombs, objectifies, subtly enslaves and deceives his Primary. He seeks the continuous admiration/praise of others to the exclusion of all else, including his wife’s absolute begging him to stop and to the point of the gruesome death of his son. A death he essentially invited through his need for admiration. Then, when his need for Fuel has finally utterly destroyed his son and his Primary, he uses what little is left of her–a literal OBJECT!–to ensnare another Primary whom he can’t distinguish from her predecessor(s?). I know this movie is popularly discussed as being an allegory for God, and maybe it is, but it is such a perfect example of the Narcissistic Abuse Cycle that it should be required viewing for every therapist in the world. I was hugely triggered (something that has never happened to me before or since) and went into a panic attack for nearly 2 hours after seeing it. Such a perfect encapsulation of N Abuse makes me have some serious questions about the filmmaker as well, but that’s for a later time.
I agree— it made sense of the entire cycle!
God’s a narc.
Well . That explains about everything actually
I don’t know if you get the TV show “Black-ish”, but it’s funny and enjoyable about a rich black family. A few of the characters in it are narcissistic – well -daughter Diane is flat out a narcissist, grandmother probably is too, and daughter Zoey is sweetly a little narcissistic.
Ha! Harder to find a film that doesn’t.
NarcAngel, weren’t we in a “Live” group together briefly? Your name seems familiar. I got thrown out 😂😂.
Cogra002
Can’t be me as I don’t know what you’re referring to.
What about bob trailer… https://youtu.be/54kT8uYTbhE
Excited to read the posts on this!
One of my all time favorite comedys “what about bob” is a great example of npd. Dr leo marvin, bobs psychologist is without a doubt a narcissist. Despite being a psychologist he clearly could give two hoots about bob. This is pointed out when the call center phones the good doctor to inform him bob has committed suicide. At this point bob has been harassing the doctor trying to find out where hes gone on vacation due to separation anxiety. Its annoying the doctor being stalked by his patient. He replys to his wife as he claps the lights off to go back to sleep…”oh well lets not let it ruin our vacation” 🤣 ummm yeah…narcissist! Lol
The movie is centered around so many examples of Dr marvins narcissism and lack of empathy. His family is drawn to bobs empathetic funny nature which wounds dr marvin and makes him insecure.
There are instances with his children he uses puppets to communicate with them which is in true narc fashion bizarre lol
Hes also overconsumed by his new book and the publicity it will get. Bob botches up the tv interview surrounding his book which has dr marvin seeing red and planning a new treatment called “death therapy” 😁😆
Bob slowly drives the doctor to insanity and gets the upper hand by marrying the doctors sister 😂
Definitely a funny movie in relation to narcissism. Sadly many psychologists are narcissists. I had one myself. She did help me in many ways but the empathy was nonexistant and she wasnt someone you could feel any amount of warmth around. I guess thats why they call them “clinical” psychologists. Oddly she is in my church and is part of the processtion. I ended up going to a registered psychologist in her office and she was the opposite very empathetic and i could relate to her. Both helped me but in different ways.
Edward in Pretty Woman. I don’t believe the ending. He won’t change. He was too wounded by his father. Yet in the movie he was very much like his father and he used his former girlfriend and could not understand why she wouldn’t drop her life to drop her plans to fly to LA to be with him for his business deal . Yet his communication for this trip was through his secretary, not him. He’s too busy to make plans with her himself. It’s always about the business and him. Not about them together. This movie made me sick to my stomach!!!
I recognised that about Edward only recently- didn’t like the film as much after that!
Jean: The movie ending was faked away from the true ending from the script. It is good that you did not fall for the fake ending. It was quite unrealistic and that ending was not part of the original script. In the script, he tossed the character played by Julie Roberts out of his car back in her old neighborhood and gave her the money that they had agreed to in an envelope. She cried and chased him as he drove away in his car to go back to his home and his girlfriend that was waiting there for him. Julia Roberts was supposed to then turn around and pick up the money that had fallen out of the envelope and scrambled into the gutter. That was the true ending to Pretty Woman, but Hollywood changed the ending for some reason. The original script if you want to look for it and read it is titled: $3,000.00.
Jeez I loved the movie pretty woman it was just so feel good .
Kiki
Sci-fi narcs: What about Darth Vader?
“I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new empire.”
Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now
Jim Williams and Billy Hanson in Midnight in the garden of good and evil
I think I may have found a series that may be useful in teaching narcissism to primary school/older children. The Dark Crystal on Netflix. I’ve watched a couple of episodes (big saturday night for me) and the messages are great. The skeksis are narcissists. Amongst other elements, it shows how scheming and sneaky a narc can be, eg pretending to be your friend. The twin lines of defence are used repeatedly by the skeksis. Many narcissist tactics are displayed. Visually, it’s lush and reminds me of Bjorks most recent visual creations.
Definitely not preschooler material.
Jay Gatsby in The Great Gatsby. I feel like a lot of really interesting characters are narcissists and are written as much more multi-dimensional than the Empaths and Normals in the story.
Of course. Evil is sexy.
Re: Evil is sexy
Upper Echelon Evil, such as yourself, can be incredibly sexy and make for fascinating characters. Yet with some dynamics, this evil sexiness seems to be expressed at the expense of any other characters in the story. An Empath in the story doesn’t have to be equally sexy, but should certainly have a similar level of multifacetedness instead of playing the nurse. This seems to be especially obvious in film adaptations. The love interest gets reduced to a gullible sheep, trying to love the narcissist back to life and only existing in relation to the narcissist, which is certainly apt from a narcissists perspective, but somewhat lazy black-and-white writing as far as I’m concerned. In Wuthering Heights, Catherine is a garbage person and at least as gruesome and manipulative as Heathcliff, if not worse. I would go so far as to say that her cruel behaviour contributed to the awakening of Heathcliffs narcissism when they where children. In the books, they should have had the common decency to marry each other, if only to shield the Lintons and whoever else got caught in that forest fire from being subjected to their heinous macchinations. But in the film adaptations? The ones that I’ve seen captured Heathcliffs essence quite well. Catherine however turns into a quite literally love-sick, watered down coquette with no reason to live, instead of the manipulative beast she was. I assume this might be done to make her easier to relate to for a female viewership. She doesn’t have to be “sexy” and “dark” just like Heathcliff, but if one does not flinch from depicting Heathcliff in this way, don’t stop at Catherine. I think all characters should be shown in their full complexity, not just the leading narc of the story.
True.
Evil is not sexy HG
That is warped thinking
Directors of certain movies simply sexualised evil fantasy figures.
Moira Hindley was evil not sexy BTK was evil I see no sexiness there .
Ted Bundy May have been moderately handsome but he was cold and creepy looking.
Evil atrocities carried out on children not sexy .
Evil can be portrayed as sexy in fantasy land
Kiki
The ACTS of evil aren’t sexy to me
But Intelligence without Empathy itself is.
For me, anyhow
I ADMIRE it, to a fair degree.
And I’m entertained by it. And humour wins my heart every time.
Mainly bc part of me would LOVE to not feel for others,to not have the burden of contagion.
We must not fantasize in a positive manner what it would be like to not feel for others. It is like a see saw. What you gain on one side you will lose on another side. HG Tudor never romanticizes Narcissism. In fact, he seriously and soberly discusses the void and the creature that he has to keep suppressed mainly by seeking fuel from others. He discusses the power of Narcissism and how difficult it is to control or even modify, even for The Ultra Aware Narcissist. He constantly implores us to get out and away from Narcissistic dynamics as much as we possible can. He should know, yes? So that we can survive without losing our minds to it all. So, we can not say we want to be a Narcissist in certain areas, but not take on the full dynamic along with it, that has become entrenched in the mind through repetitive behavior since childhood. That is idealizing the dynamic. If HG, in all of his strength and awareness and intelligence, does not want to deal with the void and the creature and the possible destruction of the construct and facade, we are romanticizing it all, if we think we want to, or we think that we can deal with all that. We will just end up becoming bitter and cruel and cold and a type of mutant. We just have to feel the pain of what happened and happens to us, and heal, and prevent it from happening to us as much as possible going forward. And believe me, I know the pain hurts, but we must refuse to turn into something else, even if it were possible. We will just become odd. The world needs more self regulating people, not less. However, it does seem that we are in the season where Narcissism and Narcissists appear to be the winners on planet earth, at this current time. Or, at least they appear to be the winners, in the media. Maybe both. Everyone wants to be a winner, yes? Winners are praised and admired and emulated, yes? But, at what cost are they winners, and under what circumstances. And, sure, many people that are not Narcissists ARE becoming more and more cold and hostile in the way that they relate to other people, because they have been victimized. And all this increasing coldness and bitterness is not good for the state of the planet. I admire and respect HG Tudor because he tells us to Get Out and Stay Out. And he shows us many ways out of the extremely complex dynamic. He knows the difficulty of the maze. He puts the puzzle together: on behalf of his Primary Aims, for our own good and so that we can save as many of the good pieces of ourselves and our minds and our good emotions intact, as possible.
Fair enough but I often fantasize abt just feeling blank
Not cold and hostile, but blank. I take care of the infirm elderly all day and look after a special needs kid when I’m not at work so I’m often empathically exhausted.
I watch narcs like my kids dad , who only have to wipe their own butt and feed their own face, who have no problems shoving their responsibilities off and yet STILL feel like the world shorted them 😆 must be nice, buddy!
Woke: I do understand. A little mental vacation to think about more pleasant or future dreams does not sound harmful. A little rest and some respite from it all sounds very good. Or utter exhaustion and exasperation and despondency could set in. I think some travel could be the `rest` that I need. Even for just a couple of days once or twice a year. Many people that I know that travel say they are usually so happy when they return to their home base mentally, after taking a break by going away physically. Some take a break by binge watching an interesting series on TV for a couple of days. Some redecorate or shop. Or, organize an extra personal day away from all children and all work. As long as the `mental ` break does not cause another problem.
Kiki: Yes, the true ending of Pretty Woman, was more tawdry than how the movie started, ending with her picking the pay of her services for the week, from out of the gutter, after the money fell out of the envelope, as Edward drove away back to his respectable life and his girlfriend. Some actresses refused the role. Julia Roberts took it, but for a different ending that was against the actual script. Did you ever see Black Swan. As a Ballet person, what did you think of it, if you saw it. I found it disturbing. I hope that the Ballet world is not that vicious. To fight all of that, without the benefit of a full stomach, seems daunting.
So true Kiki, there is an element in evil that is sexy but only in fantasy land. That’s probably why a lot of horror movies are sexualized or full of sexually suggestive things. There is something about being vulnerable that is sexy and you are vulnerable when you are in the presence of evil. In real life though, there is more to life than sex. And a strong empathic and principled man can drive up your libido in a different way, not by making you feel vulnerable but by making you feel cherished, valued, protected and loved. And evil acts done to you are definitely libido killers.
And I agree with Desirée about the way the writers depict empathic characters. I usually don’t watch movies that glorify narcissistic or evil characters although I have seen a lot of them. My favorite movies have empathic characters as the main protagonists and for me those characters have so much humanity and complexity in them. It is much more complex, interesting and challenging to be human and struggle with balancing both narcissistic and empathic sides of us as we deal with challenges in life.
Hopper, the cop from Stranger Things.
Do expand Joanne.
Well this is a little tough. As much as I brag about my good memory, when it comes to tv and films, things get blurry. All I can say is that over the course of the first couple seasons, I saw Hopper as a bit rough around the edges but an overall good guy, who was trying to do the right thing. In this last season, I don’t know – I just felt a vibe from him that was something else. His need for control over El, his fury over her closeness/ relationship with Mike, his treatment toward Joyce which went from care and concern to almost ridicule and patronizing. I just kept thinking – has the mask slipped? Is this the real Hopper now? I’m probably not explaining it well enough and I might have a slight *bias* …
Joanne
Are you talking about the Netflix series?
I just started watching it.
Oh, someone else in the blog likes that show! Yay!
Tony Soprano. There’s so much to write about: Has his own Matrinarc, black/white thinking (idealizes his father even though his father was also likely a narcissist and not there for Tony growing up while Tony blames all of his ills on his mother), Carmela (his wife) is his IPPS in devaluation with respite periods, has his fury ignited and responds with violence over trivial things (i.e. Georgie the bartender questioning Tony about whether to toss the ice because it dilutes the drinks and Tony beating the shit out of him), responds with silent treatments, views EVERYONE as an appliance to be manipulated (family, friends, kids, and anyone who falls into his sphere of influence), puts on a facade (thinks of himself as old school trying to do the right thing, but ultimately has no loyalty and always acts in his own best interest), no empathy (how else could he do what he does in terms of killing people close to him and constantly hurting the people he allegedly loves over and over again?), numerous IPSS’s and shelves them when he’s tired of their fuel and because he has no problems getting others, no boundary recognition (takes what he wants, when he wants), gaslighting (the episode where his daughter asks him about being in the Mafia in season 1 and countless other examples), blame shifting (it’s never Tony’s fault, ever), and more importantly cannot and will not change despite years in psychiatry because he sees no need to change and has no awareness of what he is.
I peg Tony as an Upper Lesser. He’s too violent to be a Greater nor is he a cowardly Mid-Ranger. Has achieved success through bullying and some charm. Not discrete with his affairs. Unable to control himself when his fury is ignited and resorts to violence fairly quickly.
HG, if you ever wrote an analysis of Tony, I’d buy it in a heartbeat. He’s my favorite character and you’re my favorite writer, and there’s so much there for the Tudorscope.
Duly noted and a decent analysis there.
Better Call HG
Good call. My fav episode is the one where Paulie and Christopher are lost in the woods and have resorted to eating ketchup packages.
Christopher: We should have stopped (for breakfast) at Roy Rogers.
Pauly: Yeah, and I should have fucked Dale Evans but I didn’t.
NarcAngel: It’s interesting in that episode you mention how these Narc-Sociopath characters, when isolated of their common realms and without their classic position of power, are really helpless.
Thanks HG!
NA, that episode is a classic. I enjoyed the exchange where Paulie couldn’t understand Tony and thought the Russian they were chasing was an interior decorator and Christopher was confused because he thought the guy’s apartment looked like shit.
Love your assessment of tony soprano!
Thank you!
He’s eerily similar to my MMR ELITE.
I had Camilla pegged as a Stepford
Good one.
Julia Robert’s character’s husband in Sleeping With The Enemy. He is charming to the outside world but very controlling behind closed doors.
A similar story has just started in Eastenders, Gray and Chantelle. They started off as a very happy couple, but now Gray has been shown to be abusive to his wife behind closed doors.
Agreed.
What’s Eastenders?
Quality!
Oh God! Sleeping with the Enemy! I forgot about that. That came out when I was living with The Warden (psychopath, not just a Narc).
I was watching this with some girlfriends when we were on concert tour, and everyone turned and looked at me!! Yikes!
And should we get the obvious out of the way? Edward inTwilight, Christian Grey in 50 Shades of Grey, James Bond.
You’re correct but Christ how I loathe the first two ‘creations’.
haha me too! both of those books I could not even get through the first one in the series… its incredible something so boring could become such a fad.
It succeeded because it encouraged people who never read books to read (thus they had no benchmark of quality) and then those who do read regularly thought “what the devil is this all about?” so they were suckered into seeing what the fuss was all about, although they stopped reading after three pages as they realised what utter dross it is. I recall Lennox telephoning me from the poolside in Tuscany to ask “What’s this Fifty Shades thing, there are four women sat around the pool reading it?”
Haha!
When I heard they were going to make a movie, I remember thinking… with that dialogue? How are thy going to pull that off? … turns out… they didnt. Movie (although I did not watch them ) was horrid too. The characters were too unrealistic and flat.
Similar to your friend ( I apologize I don’t know who Lennox is) I tried reading it on a beach. And happily opted to sun tan instead.
The Twlight series is Teen Fiction. Which can explain the problems there. But another perfect example of society conditioning young women to believe the notion of being with a narc is romantic vs abusive… which is a whole other topic in itself.
He is my brother.
Dearest HG: The Hunger Games also was credited for encouraging teens to read books. Jennifer Lawrence was so miscast. And she weighed too much. As if she personally missed few meals. She did not look undernourished at all. And her hair and eyes were wrong. I read The Hunger Games trilogy for the very reason you said above: To see why so many teens were reading a book for a change. I passed on 50 shades of grey, although I saw women reading that book all over the place, but it seems that I may have to read the book just to see what all the love and hate is about? Did you find any reward in reading 50 shades of grey? Would you pass on reading it, now knowing what was written? I never got around to the Sopranos. Also, HG, are you watching Game of Thrones? Am I missing the masterpiece of the decade? I am truly overwhelmed by all of the viewing product out there. Maybe one day you can make a list for us, of quality must watch series, movies, books, etc. The professional critics have failed me. Too few have the courage of their conviction any longer. If they stood by their opinion, I would appreciate that more, than if I agreed with them, after viewing their selection: Whatever happened to the confident spirit. But, too many lack any gumption. Too many critics are cowards and have sold out. The media industry are very powerful, I guess. So critics probably often have to toe the line.
I read four pages and it confirmed what I suspected. I then burned the book. The library will have to but another one.
I started watching Game of Thrones but then I had to go “off grid” and could not watch further. I need to revisit it when I have time.
Dearest HG: I understand. I have no time for 50 shades then. Game of Thrones is now on my list of series to watch. Thank you.
Why do you hate Edward and Christian my beautiful King?
It is more the books/films to which they belong.
Desiree, funny u mentioned Twilight Saga. I have often compared the dynamic between myself and the Narc as mirroring Edward and Bella! I’m fine with that power imbalance, except Edward was loyal to Bella, and the Narc is not loyal to me in any way.
But funny u said that. I
Some suggestions:
-The Importance of Being Earnest (Oscar Wilde)
Algernon Moncrieff
Lady Bracknell
-Rebecca
Film from 1940 directed by Alfred Hitchcock based on the novel by Daphne Du Maurier
Mrs. Danvers, the housekeeper
-The Tenant of Wildfell Hall
Arthur Huntingdon, Helen’s husband
-Jane Eyre
Sarah Reed, Jane’s aunt
-Wuthering Heights
Cathy and also Hindley, who bullied, tyrannized and degraded Heathcliff
-Bleak House (Charles Dickens)
Mr Tulkinghorn, lawyer
-The Devil Wears Prada
Miranda Priestly (Meryl Streep), Andrea’s boss
-Basic Instinct
Catherine Tramell (Sharon Stone)
-Disclosure
Meredith Johnson (Demi Moore)
-Wall Street
Gordon Gekko (Michael Douglas)
-Guilty as sin
David Greenhill (Don Johnson)
-Pacific Heights
Carter Hayes (Michael Keaton), a tenant
Classic(al) list
A perfect example would be Regina George from the movie “Mean Girls”, a 2004 american teen comedy with Rachel McAdams and Lindsay Lohan.
The introductory line we get to her is “Evil takes a human form in Regina George”, as she gets carried out on the field by a bunch of Jocks. They gently put her on the grass and she blows them a kiss before strutting to her eagerly awaiting friends already fawning over her.
Regina George is the most popular girl in highschool, having amassed an almost cult-like following of admiring girls vying to become part of her clique known as the “Plastics”. The Plastics have ridicoulus rules to live by (decided and enforced by Regina) and are supposed to heed her commands at all times. In return, they might have some of her glory rub off on them, enjoying a similar status to hers and get treated to cocktails made by her mom in their huge estate, shopping sprees in R’s silver lexus cabriolet and access to the hottest guys in school, although they must never touch a guy R has been involved with and if they tell her what guy they like, she might seduce him herself and dangle him in front of her “friends” to showcase her power. Regina does so with the Protagonist Cady when she finds out she likes her Ex Aaron, making him kiss her in front of everyone at a party, where Cady could see them. She has one of her friends tell Cady that Regina tried to get Aaron to talk to Cady, but he was just so obsessed with Regina still and that’s not her fault. Regina is often refered to as an “evil dictator” and when Cady plots a revenge campaign with her other “non-popular” friends, they decide the best way to dethrone her is to cut off her resources (namely her “hot body”, “amry of skanks” and boyfriend). Their plan bears fruit and Reginas ignited fury leads to her lashing out viciously, almost tearing the school down until she eventually gets hit by a bus (she lives). The movie brings Reginas character arc to a more satisfying conclusion, showcasing a little bit of character developement once she’s back in school. However, with her sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, lack of accountability, malice, haughtiness etc. I find her to be an excellent example of how a certain school and cadre of narcissism can start to manifest in teenagers.
Desiree
Love your analysis. Especially being a female (and teen ) example as we tend to highlight the adult males in Narc club.
Thank you NarcAngel! I agree, there isn’t much being said about female and teenage narcissists but I find them especially interesting because even those who wheren’t raised by narcissistic parents will usually have their first experiences with narcissists in school and with females in particular, we often don’t see the warning signs.
Sometimes I wonder if female narcissist are able to get away with behavior even easier then a man. Simply due to the fact we are unfortunately still viewed as the “weaker” sex. I think they have an easier time playing the victim card and being successful with it.
They need to pick certain men to manipulate properly because I have seen a narc woman try a relationship with normals and another narc, the normal and narc wouldn’t bend to her demands. So she did not act abusive with them, but with an empath… she did of course. I would imagine finding a male empath would be FAR more difficult. To be honest, I thought her with a narc was a great pairing (shes an Upper lesser/lower mid range) and with a Greater… I thought they would be really happy together. I like to see narcs together. It makes the world make sense in my mind haha.
Desiree: Regarding female Narcissists: If you get a chance, check out the film that I added above titled: Dream Lover. With the female actress Amick as the Narcissist and the male actor Spader as the empath. This film is done as if the book Sitting Target, was brought to life on film. He was the quintessential Sitting Target.
The Devil Wears Prada… come on guys, help me!
Miranda in Devil Wears Prada is no doubt a narcissist and now that I think of it, there are some similarities with the way she is portrayed to Regina George in Mean Girls. The Names alone “Miranda”- the Admirable and “Regina” – the Queen showcase the way these characters are preceived. Miranda is in a position of immense power and has a gatekeeping role with regards to the fashion industry. She determines what is “in” and “out” and shows zero empathy when she denies Nigel his promotion after he worked tirelessly for years because it no longer serves her needs to do so. She also triangulates Andy and Miranda for fuel purposes and sets ridiculously high standarts to watch people scrambling to reach them for her. Like when she asked for a copy of the unreleased Harry Potter book. She also thinks the way she acts is warranted because the entire world revolves around her and everyone wants to be in her seat.
100%
More that I remembered: The Talented Mr Ripley, The Wolf of Wall Street. I am leaving American Psycho and our friend Patt out because we have mentioned him a lot.
Paul Giamatti’s character in the film Sideways. He masks his failure and fragile ego with pretentiousness and elitism. His lack of empathy and sense of entitlement is highlighted when he steals his mothers stash of cash to fund his road trip.
Good spot.
Libby!
I live that moving. “If anyone orders Merlot, I am out of here.” The friend he travels with constantly showed how Narcissist mirrors victims to seduce. He even seduced the single mom, and hid how he was about to get married to someone else.
The movie progresses when both narcissist lose control of their environments, and get desperate. Paul Giamatti drinks an expensive Pinot from a paper cup at McDonalds, and his friend has a tryst with the ugly waitress and gets caught.
Anm: I enjoy Merlot. Red wines more than white. I am not a drink connoisseur at all, though. Maybe ordering Merlot will keep the Narcs away! Good.
PSE,
Haha!
Mad Men – narcissist / sociopath
Cersei – narcissist / psychopath – so many other narcs in GoT
Game of Thrones is like a Narc Club meeting
Is Daenerys Targaryen a narcissist? I felt like she started out really promising but after the last Season I don’t know what to believe anymore.
From S1 to S4, we thought that everything that Daenerys has done was for the well being of oppressed, slaves, minorities. But as the character develops, a dark side is evident, not just in the last seasons but from the very beginning: that includes a frenzy to get an army among the marginalized, that she’s the only one that has the right to the Iron Throne (even when she had already known the birth right of Jon Snow), the need to be introduced as “Mother of dragons”, “Chain breaker”, et al, in any occasion, when his brother (a lesser Narc) was burnt alive by melt gold, she didn’t blink by a little bit of compassion, and just said in The Narc Way: “he wasn’t a real dragon”… and maybe she’s a Narc and a Psycopath also: how she punished her enemies without regret in the most heinous ways. The worst was the Hiroshima oriented burning of Kingslanding, but she was paving this last act during the whole serie.
I love Dangerous Liaisons, i remember watching it years ago and still love watching it. I do a lot of driving and was recently listening to a podcast of the book as i was travelling and whilst listening to the lines i had to do a metaphorical double take – only because of my new ‘HG’ learning mind you. I nearly missed it but its explicitly narcissistic : “I love her, I hate her, I love her. I want to take all my wretched feelings and give them to her”. I went on the synopsis of the podcast and there it said ‘a tale of two narcissists……”. Great! I have a translation of the original 1782 french novel ‘Les Liaisons dangereuses’ but which apparently translates as Dangerous Acquaintances. I am going to have to go back and read it properly now to get some more narc rich quotes from this clever 18th century aware writer. I wonder if Shakespeare identifies any of his characters as narcissists. Hamlets narc mum ???
“Farewell my angel. I’ve enjoyed having you and I’ve no regrets leaving you. I may come back to you. That’s the way of the world. It’s not my fault.”
“Your happiness is my concern, and you may be certain that in it I shall find my own.”
“There is no longer any happiness for me, no longer any peace but in the possession of this woman whom I love and hate with equal fury. I cannot tolerate my life until hers is again mine to dispose of. Then, contented and calm, I shall see her in turn buffeted by the storms that assail me now, and I shall stir up a thousand others too. I want hope and fear, faith and suspicion, all the evils devised by hate and all the blessings conferred by love, to fill her heart and to succeed one another there at my will.”
‘I can no longer endure my existence unless it is of use in making you happy. I devote myself entirely to that. From this moment on I am yours, and you will hear neither refusals nor regrets from my lips.’ With such candour—naïve or sublime—did she give up her person and her charms, increasing my happiness by sharing it.”
“It’s beyond my control” (repeatedly and with increasing emphasis).
Absolutely and Gertrude is a narcissist.
“Its beyond my control”
I should say “it’s beyond my control” most cutting narc line in Dangerour Liaisons
Classic blame shifting
So Merteuil the woman narc is a greater? she perfectly calculates her way through her manipulations. But Valmont where does he fit in?
What do you think?
I agree Intrepid Traveller. It’s a mighty film.
I love that movie; especially the distinctly narcissistic line “It’s beyond my control” said over and over and over. Chilling, and oddly fascinating to watch the manipulation.
Phantom Thread 2017), with Daniel Day-Lewis.
SP, you reminded me. What about Day-Lewis in There Will Be Blood?