Your Selfish Point of View

YOUR SELFISH POINT OF VIEW

 

One of the most powerful (from my perspective) and troubling (from your perspective) is the fact that my kind and me appear to act without any regard to logic. We appear to delight in ensnaring people by pretending to be something that we are not even though it seems completely genuine. We cause people to fall completely in love with us and then apparently turn on them, lashing out at them and hurting them. Indeed, we seem to delight in causing pain and chaos to everyone around us and we show no concern at such conduct. We behave in such a hypocritical fashion, chastising you for doing something and then doing the very same thing ourselves. We say one thing and do so with utter conviction and then in the next breath say something completely contradictory yet seem not to realise what we just done.

We act with impunity, taking at will and with no concern for what anybody else may suffer as a consequence of our actions. The list is long and worrisome. Trying to fathom out why we behave in this manner leaves you bewildered, exhausted, defeated and broken. This is all of course intentional. We behave in this manner in order to wear you down, provoke reactions from you and most of all so that you provide us with our precious fuel. Our apparent disregard for logic and reason causes massive consternation to you and your kind. This is because you are ruled by order and the need to understand. It is woven into your DNA and anything which deviates from this creates a significant problem for you.

Our behaviour makes no sense to you for one simple reasons. You are looking at the way we behave through your world view. You are imposing your values and your outlook on what we do. Why should it be the case that your world view should be regarded as the only one? Why should the way you look at the world be considered as the correct way of doing so? When did you become the arbiter of all? This is the high-handed arrogance which proves the undoing of your kind. Oh you will wail to anyone who will listen at how monstrous you have been treated, how we are evil people and the spawn of Satan. You sit in so-called support forums on the internet decrying our behaviour, writing page after page about what has happened to you and how horrendous you have been treated. All about you isn’t it? Oh I can hear your howls of protest now, at how you are a good person and that you do not hurt anyone. Do you not? How then is it that you injure me with your failure to behave consistently. You call me for it yet you are just as guilty if in fact not more so. You promise me so much at the outset and then you change the way that you behave so you do not give me what you once did. I do not change. I shine and dazzle and soar, but you make it all change, why do you do it? This failure hurts me as you reduce my fuel and force me to punish you for it. You force me to seek it from other sources when I would much rather keep obtaining it from you. You call into question my abilities and criticise me notwithstanding just how that behaviour wounds me. You hold yourself our as caring and considerate yet you do me these injustices. You hide behind your mask of empathy, telling the world you are the good person, the caring person and the one that looks our others yet this is just a ruse in order to wound me and my kind after everything we have done.

Perhaps if you stopped looking at the world from your own perspective and looked at it from mine you would start to understand. You talk so often about showing compassion and your ability to put yourself in the place of other people. Why do you not do this with me? You tell me you love me. I read about how many of you declare you loved my kind and me in a way that went beyond anything you had shown before. Sometimes I wonder. If you loved us in the way you say that you do, then why can you not put yourself in our shoes and then understand what it is we have to deal with. If you did this, you would start to see that our behaviour is completely understandable. It makes absolute sense when viewed from our perspective and not yours. I see no reason why you should not try this and then you will have gained considerable insight into why we behave as we do and then, should you still deem what we do as unacceptable then you can at least understand it and take evasive action can’t you? You will not have to decry us to all who will listen whilst and I think it is only right that I make this point, you are not helping yourself by wallowing in this moaning and self-pity and surrounding yourself with others who behave in a similar fashion. Providing blow by blow accounts of what we do in order to elicit sympathy but then asking why does he do this and why does he do that, is not getting you the answer because you are asking the wrong people. Ask me instead and I will tell you; view the world through our eyes and everything will make sense. It all comes down to one small word; fuel. That is why we act as we do. That is why we do the things we do and say the things we say and once you comprehend that it is all about fuel you will be looking at the world through our eyes and finally it will all make sense. Go on try it. I dare you or would you rather sit and milk sympathy and never move forward? Don’t say I never gave you the chance.

 

 

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98 Comments

  1. You! By far are the best resource. Sigh. We do not want to read it, hear it not see it in print which we know is true. You. Are the one who resonates with those willing to contemplate. It is so hard for ‘our kind- the empaths- to breathe & listen (read) to the unveiling truth you speak.

  2. Challenge accepted, HG.

    I was edging around this the other day but got derailed. I am understanding now that neither the narcissist nor the codependent are seeing themselves/reality without the tint of their own disordered thinking. The “empath” needs to be able to see that clearly- not romanticise, demonise, condone, pity or get lost in anger and hurt. It is helpful to try understand both sides. I’m struggling a bit with that because it’s not easy to step outside your own mind and also not just feel a bit sad about it. The studies re: neurological structures (see what narcissist abuse does to victims) are helping me.
    On the subject of stepping outside your own mind… have you tried MDMA? Or ayaguasca? Future blog post… :-) ?

      1. Dearest HG: I took a peek and this stuff does not look good. Please,please, please do not be experimented on by any good doctors. Such a remarkably brilliant mind like you have is priceless:
        ~~~What You Should Know if You’re Thinking About Treating Yourself With Psychedelics
        MDMA is being celebrated as a new treatment for PTSD—but at what cost?

        By Suzannah Weiss
        Mar 30 2018, 5:24pm

        Psychedelics are having a moment. Clinical trials have found promising results regarding the efficacy of MDMA to treat PTSD, magic mushrooms to treat depression, and ketamine to treat OCD. Silicon Valley entrepreneurs have been touting the powers of LSD microdosing to increase productivity and creativity. And ayahuasca retreats—where people ingest the Amazonian hallucinogen in shamanic ceremonies—are gaining popularity among Americans.

        But these substances’ benefits don’t make them risk-free—especially not outside the supervision of a doctor or therapist, says James Giordano, professor of neurology and biochemistry at Georgetown University Medical Center. The risks and benefits of psychedelics depend on the drug, the dose, the frequency with which you take it, the purity, and whether you mix it with other drugs. In general, Giordano recommends sticking to a microdose or, at most, a low dose (see how much this is for each drug below) and waiting at least 10-14 days between doses (except for ayahuasca, where up to three consecutive days pose minimal risk).

        So, how harmful are psychedelics, really? Here’s what you need to know about five of the most popular psychedelics recently enlisted for therapeutic purposes.

        “““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““`MDMA
        MDMA, the active ingredient in ecstasy and molly (though it’s not always present in these drugs), has been shown to help those with various mental health issues including anxiety and eating disorders. However, in these studies, MDMA is in pure form and administered at small doses during therapy sessions, says Giordano. Typically, patients are kept at the facility afterward for monitoring.

        In recreational settings, MDMA can lead to overheating, dehydration, overhydration, and kidney failure. At high doses, it puts you at risk for serotonin syndrome, characterized by a high fever that can incur brain damage, a rapid heart rate that can cause cardiac arrest, profound anxiety, changes in blood pressure, and a tremor resembling a “wet dog shake,” Giordano says.

        More from Tonic:

        Very high doses of MDMA have been shown to damage serotonin receptors, which are involved in mood regulation, in rats, says Enzo Tagliazucchi, a neuroscientist studying psychedelics at the University of Buenos Aires and the Brain and Spine Institute in Paris. While the specific neural consequences haven’t been established in humans, research suggests that people who have used lots of MDMA for a long time have lower cognitive abilities. Due to its effects on serotonin receptors, repeated high doses of MDMA can increase your risk for depression and anxiety, Tagliazucchi adds.

        Because serotonin is involved in melatonin regulation, MDMA can also disrupt your circadian rhythm so that you don’t go through full sleep cycles, Giordano tells me. Some are very sensitive to this effect: Giordano dealt with one patient who could not sleep for a week after one rave. Others find that MDMA causes them difficulty peeing or an overactive bladder—usually after long-term use, but some are extremely sensitive to this effect in a short amount of time as well.

        If you’re going to take MDMA, Giordano recommends sticking to a low dose, not redosing, not mixing it with other drugs, and staying hydrated (but not excessively; RollSafe recommends 1-2 cups of Gatorade/hour).

        Small dose: (your weight in kg + 10) mg
        Microdose: It’s not recommended to microdose MDMA because you may get few effects and still experience a comedown or hangover.

        “““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““LSD
        Musicians and other artists have sworn by LSD—best known for its alteration of visual and auditory perception, as well as thought patterns—as an aid for their creative processes, and people in other professions have begun microdosing it for work. One small study also found it effective for anxiety reduction in those dealing with life-threatening illnesses.

        At high doses, LSD, like MDMA, can trigger serotonin syndrome, Giordano says. Still, the main risks are psychological. LSD at repeated high doses can cause the networks of neurons in your brains to reorganize, leading to what’s colloquially known as “acid brain,” characterized by foggy headedness and flashbacks.

        Some users of hallucinogens experience Hallucinogen Persisting Perception Disorder (HPPD), which involves periodic flashbacks to hallucinations long after a trip, Tagliazucchi tells me. A 2011 study in Drug and Alcohol Dependence found that 60.6 percent of 2,679 regular hallucinogen users had experienced “drug-free visual experiences that resembled hallucinogen effects,” though only 4.2 percent of the participants had the chronic flashbacks characteristics of HPPD.

        People who overdose on LSD can even full-on trip for several days, Giordano says. They may also experience derealization, or a complete disconnection from reality, which can be traumatic, particularly if it returns in the form of flashbacks.

        Because it can put people out of touch with reality, those on LSD may do dangerous things like run in front of cars and jump out windows. If you’re going to take it, he strongly recommends taking it under the supervision of a sober tripsitter.

        Small dose: .0003 mg/kg body weight
        Microdose: .006 mg (1/16 of a tab)

        ““““““““““““““““““““““““““““`Magic Mushrooms
        Psilocybin mushrooms, or shrooms, also disrupt visual and auditory processing, potentially causing hallucinations, and can help people think outside the box. They can also bring emotions, both positive and negative, to the surface. Perhaps for the latter reason, they’ve shown success in alleviating depression and anxiety.

        Similar to LSD, high doses of magic mushrooms can lead to serotonin syndrome, derealization, extended trips, and risky behavior, Giordano says. In the long-term, regular high doses can also reorganize neural networks, potentially leading to chronic flashbacks or cognitive impairment. Don’t take a lot or take it alone.

        Small dose: .3 mg mushrooms/kg body weight
        Microdose: .2 mg

        ““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““`Ketamine
        Ketamine, originally used as a sedative by surgeons, dentists, and veterinarians, has been making its way into nightclubs—and clinical trials, where it’s proven promising for treating depression, alcohol dependence, and heroin addiction.

        The effects of ketamine are extremely dose-dependent, Giordano tells me. A high dose can put you in a “K-hole,” where you’re temporarily paralyzed and dissociated from your body. In the worst cases, it can cause respiratory or cardiac arrest, seizures, coma, or brain death. It can be fatal.

        In the long term, ketamine can become addictive because it acts on the excitatory neurotransmitter glutamate, while most psychedelics’ potential for addiction is low, Tagliazucchi says. It can also change the membranes of your neurons and the way their receptors function, leading to depression, mood swings, and cognitive impairment, Giordano says.

        At a low dose, these risks are diminished, but it’s difficult to predict how susceptible you are to them, since everybody metabolizes ketamine differently, Giordano adds. People who take low doses of ketamine often describe distorted visual perception and the ability to arrive at insights. Microdoses may produce the insights without the sensory disruption. Either way, because it’s so unpredictable, Giordano recommends enlisting supervision if you’re going to take ketamine.

        Low dose: .7mg/kg body weight under the tongue or 1.4 mg/kg taken orally
        Microdose: .02 mg under the tongue, .2 mg orally

        ““““““““““““““““““““““““““““Ayahuasca
        Sometimes called “the medicine” by shamans and other enthusiasts, ayahuasca—which can cause visual and auditory hallucinations, epiphanies, and profound spiritual experiences—is often viewed as a harmless substance. And many times, it is—at low doses, Giordano says. However, high doses carry many of the same risks as other psychedelics, including serotonin syndrome, derealization, and extended trips. Like LSD and mushrooms, it could lead to neural network reorganization resulting in foggy headedness and flashbacks after excessive, long-term use.

        Because people often don’t feel the effects of ayahuasca the first few times, they may be tempted to up their dose. However, it’s better to keep the dose the same the first few times because it may need several chances to block your MAO enzymes so that all the DMT can reach your brain.

        Low dose: This varies drastically based on the brew and how much DMT it contains, so find a reputable facility and talk to the people serving it.
        Microdose: You don’t really microdose ayahuasca; you wouldn’t feel much.

        The bottom line? “Usually, the advice is to start low and go slow,” Giordano says. “The thing that becomes problematic is higher doses repeatedly, because what that can do is that can disrupt brain chemistry in a more stable and durable manner.”

        “When psychedelics are researched, they’re using it primarily as a therapeutic intervention against a defined psychiatric or psychological condition,” he adds. “They’re not saying, ‘These drugs are safe. Go out and use them like it’s 1968.’”~~~

          1. Dearest HG: Thank you so very much. Tampering would be an utter outrage. The very thought distressed me exceedingly. Including the possible influence of any good doctors. The entire notion truly horrified me. However, I breathe easily now. I can exhale. Thank you for your quick reply. A shockingly awful threat is put down. ~~PSE

    1. Try salvia divinorum. I feel it may be directly related to every single thing that has happened since the day I took it. As though it led me down my own rabbit hole to understand my entire life. Like a gift. The painful gift of understanding.

      DMT is next for me. I hope it will remove all this for me.

  3. I most of everything you write and have read quite a few of your books. I do enjoy and learn with an open mind. This however, was very powerful for me, deeply.
    Thank HG as always

    1. Thank you for reading Renee and you are welcome. It would be appreciated if you leave reviews for the books which you have read.

  4. HG, you’ve answered your own question here in your article “Not Tonight, Caroline”.
    Your perception being very different also goes to any length to be certain you are fueled and in control. You do whatever it takes to see to it your needs are met at the expense of others.

    Premeditated discord to achieve fuel results.
    IE: upsetting Caroline so she chose not to go to the movies giving you what you need.

    Any empath could (and most likely does) try to assess what you’re thinking and maybe even try to please you without your needing to ask.
    When your need for fuel takes precedence, keeping you fueled is impossible without becoming ether.

    It’s a pleasant but impossible idea. On both sides (the narcissist’s and the empath’s) it’s a fantasy that we can coexist in an intimate relationship.

    You may need to consider your future sources of fuel. We most certainly need to reevaluate where we get our needs met from. Eventually we will all know what your kind does and how you assess it. When we find resolve for our addiction…what will you do?

    Curious.

    1. You never solve your addiction, you merely control it (and those who do not have access to my work or fail to follow my direction do so badly). It never goes away.

        1. You need to arrange a GOSO Consultation as a matter of priority to start the process to Zero Impact. I guarantee I will ensure you remove the feelings you are experiencing.

          1. Thank you. That’s exactly what I need.

            I’ll find the link for it. Though, I can’t act on it, until next week.

            But I will do so.

      1. I was wondering. I’m in inner transition but even still- I know immediately that if I’m attracted to someone – %95 chance they’re a narc. I just know now. That’s how it is.
        The only difference now is- before- the butterflies and infatuation and fantasy and moving too fast and overstating and sexual tension was appealing
        And now it’s not, it’s UNappealing. That’s the only diff. I still get the initial adrenaline rush upon attraction – and it feels good for about 10 seconds and then it feels NOT good. NOT peaceful. And , just a waste of time and energy bc they’re just gonna turn out to be a narc. And then I forget about them.
        Like I got a FB friend request from a dude today. Small town, so like 40 mutual friends lol. I looked him up- and damn if I wasn’t attracted! And I’m not attracted to many ppl. So I had a moment of “Ooohoooh! – who’s this then?!”
        And then I remembered – he’s gotta be a narc. And even if not- I hate this adrenaline/anxiety feeling of attraction now. It’s ALWAYS wrong. It’s ALWAYS a waste of time. So I forgot about him
        Until this comment, anyhow LOL.

        It’s a strange process.
        I think I’ll always initially feel the chemistry with narcs-but it may just continue to feel bad not good , and I’ll continue to pass on it? Dunno. It’s pretty interesting tho..

        Do you think we will ever be attracted to other empaths or not ask , HG? It is it an affliction that can end out that possibility?

        1. Yes you will be, you have to decrease your emotional thinking which makes you think you are only ever attracted to narcissists and avoid entangling with narcissists (which of course keeps ET high and precludes you from meeting the empaths because we get in first).

          1. So if we weed out the narcs, you think there will be normals and empaths still in queue ?
            I had come recently to think it wasn’t ET that I’m only attracted to narcs but more of a safeguard. Which I suppose is it a bad safeguard temporarily

          2. HG—I’m so glad to see WAF spell out the struggle. I’m not attracted to many attractive men because they aren’t assholes. It is not what I want. It is the way it is. If someone is a narcissist it’s like a magnet. (That is not ET but nearly a fact) It’s insane and I’m completely lost. I am not doing this no dating thing forever. (I’m doing it only for one more week) I want dinner. Every 2 weeks. It feels stressful to be constantly on guard and it sucks. The lessers are the only obvious ones and Lord knows I’m not having them anywhere near me. This is ridiculous. I think we need more questions/answer examples to help decipher maybe what we are seeing. Think about it—I have to spend considerable time with someone to even accurately provide narc detector information. I don’t want to spend that much time with them. Oh but then they want to see you and drive you nuts. Endless circle of nonsense. Why can’t there be a somatic, smart, non-narcissist wanting dinner every 2 weeks and coffee every 8.34 days that never bothers me on off days? So this arrangement takes me back to Narcville which is what I’m used to. Maybe I should just join the church choir and meet a 60 year old man with ED and five busy body kids so we can make pancakes together and watch Good Morning America daily while tending to some awful farm. No sex, no sex. I can learn to mow and sew and gain 50 pounds eating homemade blueberry pie made with lard. I’ll be so miserable I have to learn to make pie crust like they did in 1950 and wear a tidy June Cleaver apron. No thanks.

          3. And don’t forget quilting bees, cross-stitch cat designs, (for the wall), making my own butter, and another 25 pounds with bags under my eyes.

        2. WAF, it can most definitely work. My official diagnosis from the master is magnet SE. I’m married to a fellow E. (From my unofficial diagnosis, he’s a magnet (to the max) with very strong carrier traits and some pretty strong SE traits although they manifest in different ways to my own).

          I’m not sure I could ever be attracted to a normal in a romantic way.

        3. WAF Tudiorita,

          It is nice to know that I’m not the only one.

          It feels lonely sometimes to never quite fit.

          Having said that, I’m so sorry to you that you have to live with this too.

          1. I’m ok with it. Im very peaceful- I’m just enjoying a narc Free (mostly) life and the quietness inside.
            I don’t feel lonely generally, due to my kid and job and such – and other factors & perspectives as to how I experience life in general.
            But there WAS something missing and narcs gave it to me.
            This has been UPGRADED to what HG’s has given me.
            I’m content now.

            It appears as though in I’m a transition period and it’s very calm
            I’m sure at some point I’ll connect romantically again , but in the meantime it doesn’t seem to detrimental to use the safeguard of assuming if I’m attracted – it’s a narc.
            If they prove me wrong- awesome.

            The turmoil I used to identify as attraction isn’t comfortable anymore let alone appealing.

            Hg said thinking I’m ONLY attracted to narcs is ET.
            If this was a grand sweeping gesture of declaration- “I’m sooo special I only attract narcs”- or a victim mentality “I’m sooooo broken I only like narcs”- then I agree with him.

            Right now it’s only an observational safeguard to keep myself in check during this phase I’m in.

            As I change , what I’m attracted to , what I attract- will also change. Right now I’d say it’s safe to say that would still be narcs – so I’m keeping my mind right .

            No harm in taking some time to just BE.

          2. I did not present to you, a challenge.

            Are you referring to his article? In which we were all dared to consider; did we change?

            Or are you referring to my counter?

          3. Oh sorry, just caught up

            1)Why would he do that if he has everything he needs as things are?

            2) HG – COULD you give full disclosure to a partner? Is it even possible or would the transference of power release the Creature?

            Thx

          4. 2. It remains to be seen, but such disclosure would be counter productive with regard to the maintenance of control. The transference does not per se release the creature but would set in place a chain of events which, absent corrective action, result in the collapse of the construct and the unleashing of The Creature.

  5. Your post touches on very child like views on what relationships between adults are all about.

    One, if your kind disclosed what you were, we wouldn’t be expecting a typical progression of a relationship towards intimacy.

    You dupe us then feel sorry for yourselves that you can’t find unconditional love while acting like assholes.

    No one’s love is going to fill the void. It’s not their job. It’s yours. So every infatuation is going to end up disappointing you. Rather than question what’s missing in you, your fragile ego causes you to blame the other for not being the perfect, self-effacing, loyal doormat.

    This goes back to attachment theory which hypothesizes that those of us 40% who are insecurely attached come with an unconditional love void and therefore have unrealistic expectations about romantic relationships.

    You did cause the cessation of positive fuel by not carrying your end of the bargain so to speak. Your end of the bargain was to nurture, respect, protect etc etc. Instead you pretend and manipulate.

    Relationships between most people aren’t about unconditional love. Reciprocity is a more apt dynamic.

    We assume we are involved with mature adults, while in reality it’s more like being involved with an entitled toddler.

    And yes, not fucking with people’s minds to compensate for your traumas is the better point of view because it has more positive outcomes for all.

    1. Elena, “relationships between most people aren’t about unconditional love” Absolutely! There are very few instances of unconditional love if one thinks about it. The love I have for my children and for animals is all I can think of. Any other human relationships are conditional and I suppose it could be considered selfish. (In a twisted way.) Selfish because my love is given based on the other’s treatment of me. (Reciprocity like you said.) If you change the way you treat me, my “love” will change accordingly. The Empath has a conditional asterisk too!

      However, we also have the ability to love someone notwithstanding how we are treated by them. There in lies the bane of our existence.

      1. MB, for me reciprocity is akin to water to a plant. It gives off beautiful blooms and foliage when it gets water. If it doesn’t get water it will die. The relationship depends on some nourishment to survive

          1. Right on! If we aren’t nurtured and cared for we whither. Following your apt metaphor, it would be absurd of me to be angry with my plants for not flowering had I failed to give them the sun and water they need. Absurd for me to be angry with the nursery for selling me a defective plant.

            Within the framework of a narcissist, said plants would be considered needy and unworthy of being part of my garden. The irony is that the only plants that would qualify are plastic ones.

            You need sun and water too, but you choose to hog it rather than share these resources as if they were in short supply. This supports what other sources have taught me about narcissism – you perceive that you live in a world of scarce resources and therefore compulsively destroy “competitors” to get the sun and water.

            So, HG when you meet a target they are most likely being nurtured by themselves and their environments until you come along. You first see us in our glory much like a plant that’s getting what it needs. Then you starve us and make us question whether we need sun and water.

            We remain the same beings at our core but you focus on the dry leaves, lack of budding etc and conclude that you were duped. Not so. The truth is that you are a shitty, inpatient gardener. There is no escaping the truism of you get what you give.

            You become the rot that threatens the beauty you first were attracted to. No one is impervious. That does not make us weak. That makes us alive. Your capacity to destroy doesn’t make you superior. We all can do it too. The difference is restraint and respect.

            To expect someone to be loyal to you when you break their mojo is childish, bullying, and self-defeating. Also the survival and growth of love among adults requires a community mentality which you haven’t developed because your native community was hostile.

            How in the world you perceive this state of existence superior blows my mind. Go buy a live plant and challenge yourself to figure out what it needs and when you do, and it manifests it’s true potential, you will understand the awesomeness that is creation.

            I have walked in your shoes and it was a miserable existence. Constantly gauging your worth by external benchmarks, feedback from others, empty achievements that weren’t motivated by passion…. it is exhausting. It is insane.

            I have said here before that your search for unconditional love and acceptance, what you call “fuel”, will never be satisfying because you are looking in the wrong places. You are too weak to go inwards and reframe the impact of your arid native land on your psyche. You are stuck and living out the phrase “misery loves company”.

            How is that a better way to live? The ability to destroy isn’t that special. The ability to co-create is.

      2. Yes to love someone yet have to remove yourself from them when they are intent on damaging us is the bane of our existence.

        Hence one must learn to love from a distance. Boundaries are crucial for the empath.

        1. No, you do not love a narcissist from a distance. You do nothing towards a narcissist as part of your no contact regime.

          1. Hilarious that you’d think I’d default to treating a narcissist in accordance to what a narcissist recommends 🤣🤣. Also you can’t stop how you feel, only what you do with those feelings.

          2. What is the it you are calling accuracy? Your opinion? Your single experience? There are plenty of professionals that recommend otherwise. Are you claiming that your personal experience is better than that of mental health professionals?

            Be careful your blind spot is showing. You are the best source of yourself. The fact that you don’t reference other findings or articles in your work indicate to me that your knowledge is tautological. Self-referencing. Not exactly what one would call sound research.

            As a memoir it is phenomenal.

          3. 1. My extensive experience supported by the repeated and sustained observation and interaction of my kind.
            2. The repeated comments and emails which attest to the accuracy of the information that I provide, its effectiveness and its applicability. These comments come from readers and clients which include psychotherapists, psychologists, nurses, doctors, psychiatrists and mental health professionals. Indeed, many of them refer people to me.
            3. It is unnecessary in light of the above to reference anything else. It is not self-referencing.

            Careful, your envy is showing.

        2. Elena
          When you get the chance, read: Identifying and Understanding The Narcissistic Personality Disorder by Elsa F. Ronningstam. She has been studying NPD for over 25 years and she is clueless about the disorder.

          She is currently an Associate Clinical Professor of Psychology in the Department of Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and An Associate Clinical Psychologist at McLean Hospital in Belmont, Massachusetts.

          I hope you enjoy the book.

  6. Hi HG.

    I consider this and I accept the challenge!

    But holy sh*t.

    There is truth to what you say. I PROMISED that I would never change. He begged me to swear to it. And I did.

    I will never change.

    But I did. As soon as he went cold. I went cold.
    When I noticed smug hints, I used to pretend it went unnoticed. Then later, I would shoot him a betrayed look instead of a blissfully unaware and adoring look.

    I used to persue a good morning every day. It was the happiest moment of my day. ..but then, then his replies weren’t so quick. An hour later. A few hours later. A few days later.

    I used to persue a chat and was relentless in chasing him. But then I changed, the longer he made me wait, I started doing it back. If he made me wait a day. In retaliation I would make him wait a day.

    So oh my god. I loved him!! I did! And I was retaliating against him and I was being contrary instead of adoring.

    I “felt” adoring still, more so, but I fought fire with fire.

    I changed. And I swore I wouldn’t. I swore it!

    Well, this is a sorry state of affairs that I have to reflect on. It is true that I offer heartfelt empathy to everyone in need even when it’s so painful for me that I then need to be somewhere quiet to decompress. But I stopped offering it to him. I felt only empathy for myself.

    I am wrong.

    However, I would like to challenge in return, that if a narc would just tell us they are a narc then we would learn how to give more and please them. I would have done that willingly and I would have never given up. Never!

    It is the “treating us like a fool” part that stirs my rebellion. Give it to me straight and I will give everything. I’d give my last breath.

    I would learn to deal with the shelf. I would happily wait for all time.

    Clarity is what makes it an uneven Playfield.

    So HG, I dare you. I dare you to give someone the chance to enter your world with full understanding of the deal they are making and maybe, just maybe, someone will surprise you.

    1. You cannot ever “jus be given it straight” because

      1. The vast majority of narcissists do not know what they are, therefore they are incapable of doing as you request , or
      2. This amounts to a transference of power which we would not engage in.

      1. 1.True.

        2. Yes, of course. I did not think of it!

        I keep forgetting what is at the very core of said f*ckery.

          1. Does this mean I have to keep this up like an alcoholic in AA?! This sucks. I mean I like it here but the gravity of this keeps dawning on me. (This is in response to you saying to remember not to forget—therefore keep reading here..)
            This is so intricate and annoying and enlightening but ongoing maintenance seems so taxing. Clearly it’s necessary because I’m still attracted to somatic assholes. Especially one with really awesome arms that keeps cornering me near bathrooms. I’m pathetic. Ridiculous.

          2. No. Just go to a good therapist. Believe me steeping yourself in the mind of a narcissist isn’t going to help. Healing your propensity to form trauma bonds is a better shot. Trust me. See a therapist and talk about your attachment style.

            AA is the saddest bunch of people I’ve ever seen. Plenty of addicts break addictions without joining a cult.

            Best of luck!

          3. Oddly enough, nobody is stepping themselves in the mind of a narcissist, they are gaining valuable information which has helped many, many people. Indeed, many have explained how they’ve been repeatedly let down by therapy, wasted thousands of dollars and felt helpless. They then found my work.

          4. Plenty of mediocre therapists and I’m not a fan of CBT. I’m not discounting the contribution of your work to the domain. It’s highly valuable. Understanding the depravity under the hood is priceless. Sticking around to determine what role you play in a fuel matrix isn’t. Nor is it worthwhile to know, based on your opinion, what level of narcissist one is dealing with. A narcissist is a narcissist.

            Both narcissists and those attracted to them have unresolved childhood trauma. Period. Identify/reframe the trauma = minimize the attraction. That’s the goal.

          5. Wrong.

            1. Narcissism is a self-defence mechanism which will not allow anything to affect it. The unresolved childhood trauma has been resolved, by the narcissism, that is why it exists. It cannot be undone because the narcissism will never allow that to be undertaken.
            2. Plenty of people will disagree with you with regard to the fuel matrix and the school of narcissist points. Not only are these matters important because people want to know, the answers provide a sound foundation for the establishment of no contact regimes and understanding what they entangled with. Any resolution of unresolved childhood trauma for a victim (which is not always a relevant factor for a victim) is not an immediacy. If a victim focusses on addressing that (in situations where it exists) and not a no contact regime, they will just keep getting ensnared and the resolution will fail. The immediate action is to apply no contact for various reasons already advanced. If you are getting burned in a fire, do you remain there getting burned trying to work out why you are attracted to the fire and how you might put it out or do you remove yourself from the fire first and foremost? You remove yourself from the fire.

          6. Yes HG I wasted countless hours with a therapist. I would have died in her office and be swept up at the end of a day in a dust pan.

          7. I hate to say it—but many think a random person actually has the capacity to “fix and heal” just because of a few initials?? Ludicrous. I think Amazon customer service chat is more useful in some instances!

          8. Oh a therapist can’t help me. It’s a bad case! Last one I went to was useless and I don’t like it. I feel like I’m at a job interview anyway and have to look better than I am. It doesn’t work.

          9. On that last note, I’ve gotten what I need and thank you once again HG for exposing how your mind works. It is extremely difficult for empaths to grasp that someone can feign emotions for ill intent. It breaks our hearts that people like you walk this earth, deriving pleasure from hurting others to such an extent.

            Zenith empaths despise it. It’s entitled; it’s depraved; it’s inhumane. Rather than own your hurt and stop the buck, you willingly perpetuate it on others and that makes my blood boil.

          10. Elena

            Serious question: Are you in the Mental Heath field or are your comments merely opinion and observation? Have you been involved with narcissists in your personal life? I think it’s important to know the basis on which your comments are made if we are to expected to lend them any gravity.

            Trust you? You have provided nothing thus far to base any trust on. All I have witnessed so far is your unsuccessful attempt to discredit the writer and moderator of this blog, disparage AA and the people who attend, and cast aspersion on the intelligence of the people here who have repeatedly testified to the effectiveness of the information provided here in insinuating it is a cult.

            I know that I am receiving the information and opinions here of a narcissist. I decide what I do with that information. I don’t know who you are. You have not provided any evidence to support the superiority on the subject of narcissism and how it should be handled that you display in your comments. I get the feeling that If we were to join with you on your opinions and seek the treatment you suggest, that you would not consider that a cult. Do you see the dilemma?

            You are a good therapist yes? Do tell.

          11. Silly me for thinking we were having an open debate. I can provide plenty of academic work done on these subjects. Next time I post I will provide links to research for your approval sweetie.

          12. Elena

            To have open debate you have to be open, so you pretty much ended any chance of that. I’ll add condescension to your growing list of telling traits (sweetie). You didn’t answer the questions I asked regarding the experience you base your comments and opinions on so that is very telling also. You stated that you have walked in HG’s shoes? I really hope you are not a therapist.

          13. Elena -God, you’re just a dick all around, arent you? Lol

            As an AA member- I went to a meeting a day six days a week for 4 months until I was well & truly on my way. After that it dwindled – almkstc2 months sober and I go twice a week some weeks, some weeks not at all – depending on work sched.
            We go because we form a family there that we lack . The family there has been through the same shit (similar to here) & therefore keeps an eye on our well being and is there to support through life’s ups & downs.
            AA , the steps, offers a program of inner growth & evolution. It’s an opportunity for a never ending growth process- if one chooses to use it.
            I’ve made many good friends- sober, articulate, hilarious, honest, insightful ppl who are devoured to inner growth and maturation.
            The whole “God” gig is big in some groups- in my homegroup there are more atheists than anything else. Science is a higher power, Nature, ,whatever works. The stereotype of AA is incorrect.
            It’s not a cult lol .
            And even if it WAS – if it was a cult that helped you to stay sober, lead a fulfilling life, work ok your inner defects such as – oh, shortsightedness, low empathy, judgemental attitude, superiority, etc….without hurting anyone or taking your money— then 🤷‍♀️

            Lorelei – I steeped myself in the mind of a narc (HG) for two years and it was time well spent. I come here now for new information and insight , to chit chat about what I’ve learned, and I might go a few days without popping in if my life is busy but I do find it’s helpful to use this site as a touchstone .
            If steeping yourself in narcissism helps you GOSO and feels ok- there’s no harm. Just remember balance – work, friends, exercise, down time, hobbies. Don’t let it become your whole world for TOO too long .

            Elena is showing entitlement & superiority to make sweeping statements about AA or narcsite.
            She showed low empathy for anyone here who is in AA or other support groups .

            If you do decide to get a therapist, I’d suggest look for one with experience in narcissistic abuse . They’re out there.

          14. Thanks WAF and congrats on being sober. I didn’t get notifications to these comments so glad I browsed back here. (Loads of valuable activity)
            It’s ok to be steeped in this right now—I just didn’t realize the extent of the issues! It’s exasperating at times. I like it here a ton. I’m frustrated though because it’s so enormous and damn—who would have thought! They have 30 day rehabs in posh resorts and that would have been nice too??!
            Elena’s suggestion to see a therapist is useless for me. I have great health coverage and a panel of providers. I’ll pass, no thanks. Perhaps it works for some though but this has drenched my life so requires a very focused approach.

          15. NA, change your name to NarcSniper, please? Taking out targets from a hundred yards while they’re flailing and wailing, waving shotguns around.

          16. Elena
            I didn’t take what you said as a personal attack and it doesn’t affect my sobriety ,

            I just know when someone’s being a dick.
            and Thanks to HG I can label and deceive what it looks like see below;

            I said
            “Elena is showing entitlement & superiority to make sweeping statements about AA or narcsite.
            She showed low empathy for anyone here who is in AA or other support groups”

          1. Yes they are Desiree. I worked actively in mental health and am on the periphery of it now. Lots of uselessness.

          2. I’m perfectly fine with you disagreeing with me and I’m not sure why you think my opinions are a personal attack on you… Debates are for exploring/exchanging ideas. It’s possible to disagree with someone without calling them names.

            Your sobriety and how you achieve it shouldn’t depend on some stranger’s point of view. That’s my whole point; become secure in yourself regardless of what others think. Basing your self-esteem and moods on others is like erecting a building on sand – unstable.

            For example, I do not think any less or more of myself because you called me a dick. I know who I am. I know what my motives are. I don’t need to be popular to be whole nor do I change my opinions, research results, and self-assessment based on insults.

            The truth defends itself.

            In fact, I can still entertain your point of view despite you having called me a dick. I can still even like you despite your insult. That’s what I’ve been driving at.

            I’m not “here” to make friends. I’m here to prepare. To understand. To be ready.

          3. Elena—the maturity in this reply reflects well. Thank you. I concede that therapy is helpful in some cases. It has helped my children (this summer) but only because of a particular dynamic. I knew enough to get the Tylenol for the fever if that makes sense. (The PsyD is also at this time a friend..)
            I won’t bother but it is great when it works. I’m very familiar with AA and I have friends who have had life changes. This venue here sounds bananas to many so opinions really benefit from flexibility at the end of the day.

          4. Great!

            Isn’t is weird that once you understand the word, you see them. My last boss. Another fellow staff member. A borderline that chased me until I was her friend and then starting demanding my time when I had no extra. So she took 64 seroquil tablets and forced me to her house that way.

            These creatures are everywhere.

          5. Elena, What truth? Who’s truth? No-one in academia or science uses the word truth. Scientific study is an exploration into the infinite amount of possible outcomes on any subject matter. Hypotheses are formed and explored and either supported or unsupported. There are no absolutes in science, only in mathematics, and even then, new theorems emerge. We theorize, we test, we observe, we examine, we practice, we reevaluate. Then the process begins anew. Our comprehension and understanding is ever evolving. This is why no credible scholar or scientist would ever speak in absolutes or describe a theory as fact or truth or proven.

            Elena it is okay to offer dissent on any topic, but do expect others to do the same when there are obvious flaws presented in your position. Please know I do invite your dissent on my commentary as well. Passionate, logical debate furthers understanding and shifts perspectives, which enables new theories to emerge and new behaviors to be adopted.

            In regards to the academic work you reference, do supply the evidence. Most therapists do not specialize in therapeutic shifting of attachment style and would not be able to effectively approach this goal. Even fewer therapists are educated in and practice trauma bond recovery (though many may do so without specific education or training, and as a result, can create adverse outcomes). Most therapists, unless certified in CPTSD, do not have this specific knowledge either.

            Unfortunately, the greater body of therapist do not have an accurate model of narcissism to work form, and therefor cannot provide effective, actionable solutions. HG offers a far more substantial, stratified model on narcissism that one could easily apply academically. On narcsite, readers do not need to do this. They instinctively know that HG’s writing maps closely to their personal experiences and they recognize the accuracy in his approach to freedom from abuse. HG’s principles are sound and his advice is solid and supported by evidence (even academic research supports his principles–I am happy to supply citations).

            Elena, ff you feel triggered or challenged by the content or comments here, I suggest you dig deeper to explore why you have these feelings. We readers are here to learn and to support others. I hope you are here for the same reasons. I sincerely wish you the best in your ongoing discovery and/or recovery.

    2. Amanda, I thought the same way after reading the Shelf article. (Unintended consequence?) If I knew the information contained in the article during my ensnarement. I would have understood better and been more tolerant of his needs due to his disorder. Empaths have the super power of putting their needs aside to accommodate the needs of another. The problem with that for the narcissist is that without the upset and confusion, there is a considerable reduction of fuel. He doesn’t want you to sit waiting patiently on the shelf for your turn while his disorder takes him away to engage with other appliances. He wants you upset and confused and begging for attention. Information equates to control and that’s why they instinctively keep you in the dark and feed you shit. (Like a mushroom!)

      1. Hi MB.

        Yes it seems to be a shared and frustrating experience for so many., to fall for the narcissist.

        It’s confusing to me to feel like we are on the same frequency but we are not.

        I find it just crushing to have finally found real love! The kind I need so badly and it was all just a sick joke.

      2. Well summarized, MB. You cannot manage outcomes with a narcissist. Even with the knowledge of what they are, and what they need, it is impossible.

        1. Joanne, after I typed that response, I realized/remembered (Zero Impact is working!) that I continued to engage with the N for a year or so after finding HGs work and knowing what he was. I’ll admit, it was much easier with the knowledge. I wasn’t as upset or confused because I knew what was behind his actions. I was so far removed from his real life, I think it could’ve carried on indefinitely with me the virtual long distance shelf appliance, eager to give fuel when called upon. What made me go no contact, was being ignored even though I had been as compliant as compliant could be. I became boring to him. Too controlled. You’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t with a Narc. Impossible to manage outcomes. Bottom line though…an informed appliance is a flawed appliance.

          1. I’m still doing it to some degree, MB. And my year anniversary is approaching. I am not NC anymore as I look at his social media (although there is rarely anything of interest there). I would also consider myself to be a virtual shelf appliance at this stage as we’ve no reason to ever cross paths unless it’s intentional (which it won’t be). So, foolishly, in some ways I am kind of allowing myself to be in the position you described. Happy to provide positive fuel if called upon. Being armed with the knowledge prevents me from getting (as) upset, but I’m aware this is still very harmful and dangerous.

    3. He will never take that challenge because vulnerability requires a strong self of self-love. He sees vulnerability as powerlessness. We are not talking about conscious behaviors and choices here. We are talking about early childhood programming. To reprogram oneself takes guts. It takes faith in one’s ability to renew and rise above.

      It’s the opposite of self-abandonment. Its radical self acceptance. That isn’t gained through other people being enabling. It’s gained by facing the monster and challenging it.

      1. Hi Elena.

        I knew he would not take the challenge.

        He knew, that I knew, that he would not take the challenge.

        The challenge in itself, would call upon compassion to even consider the idea of something becoming fair.

        So of course, it could never be considered.

        But it confirms the boundaries of this dance with the Narc.

        We can never win. And since we get no trophies for winning, why do we feel such a strong urge to win small victories.

        I once asked the Narc, for just one kind sentence, one compliment.

        I received, with no hesitation “I love your car Amanda. I love it”.

        Pointless, isn’t it?

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