Caught In A Lie
I have explained previously that lying is like breathing for our kind. Lesser and Mid Range Narcissists tell lies and believe them, they are their truth. They do not recognise that they are lying and therefore there is no question of guilt, remorse or conscience because they do not see that they are doing something which is seen as wrong by you. Such is the joy of ignorance.
Greater Narcissists tell lies where some are believed by the Greater, the True Believer Status of those narcissists which operate in the rarefied atmosphere of control, power and privilege and are responsible for many of the glories and ills of the world you inhabit. However, much of the lies of the Greater are conscious lies and are told because of our innate Machiavellian nature wherein the end justifies the means and therefore there is nothing to be lost by knowingly lying and everything to gain. Unhindered by guilt, conscience or remorse, we will knowingly tell lies to serve our needs which will include the sheer entertainment of knowing we are lying and the impact it has on our victims.
What about when the narcissist is caught in a lie? Many of you will have witnessed this. The Greater is not caught in a lie because the sheer force of our lies, the level of our intellect and the extent of our scheming means that the lie is either undetectable or if it is, we are not caught in it. There is always an exit, whether that is through charm, massive plausible deniability or the operation of some manipulation, the Greater may occasionally have a lie exposed, but is never caught in it.
But what about the the Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist? You will have caught them in a lie on many occasions. What happens and surely their reaction means that they know they are caught lying?
No, it does not.
If you boldly accuse a narcissist of lying or you are less candid so you present a contradictory state of affairs between what the narcissist has said and some other evidence, what will you be met with?
This amounts to a challenge to the narcissist. You will be presenting Challenge Fuel and thus there is no wounding. However, your challenge to the narcissist by suggesting, forcefully or with subtlety that he or she has lied, is stating that the narcissist is wrong and thus you are offending the narcissists sense of superiority and seeking to pin accountability on the narcissist. You are not allowed to do this.
These challenges to superiority through our sense of entitlement to do what we want and need and to the lack of accountability threaten our control. Thus you will meet the First Line of the Twin Narcissistic Lines of Defence, which is denial.
You will be told that you are wrong, that this never happened, that you are incorrect, that you are making scandalous accusations, that your memory is haphazard or that you are making things up. All of these things and others amount to denial.
Denial will be maintained again and again and again until either you give up (thus giving the narcissist control and your challenge has ended) or you present something (usually independent corroborative evidence (such as a text, a picture, a video recording or somebody else’s testimony). If you do the latter you break through the First Line and thus you expose the lie.
This means the narcissist MUST in order to maintain control, fall back to the Second Line of the Narcissistic Twin Lines of Defence, which is in effect, any other manipulation and we have plenty of those. To understand more about the Twin Lines of Narcissistic Defence, read The Narcissist’s Twin Lines of Defence.
However, if you break through the First Line and present evidence showing a disconnect between what the narcissist says has happened and something else, has the narcissist not seen that he has lied? Does he not gain knowledge that he has lied? Is she not now fixed with realisation that she has lied?
No.
The reaction you see is not of realisation that a lie has been exposed but instead the reaction to the loss of control, which you, understandably (because of your worldview) but mistakenly, see as realisation of been caught lying.
It is not.
It is a realisation that something is not right. The unconscious loss of control manifests in a conscious response through the application of the Second Line.
Thus, this is why the Lesser or Mid Range Narcissist does not know that he or she is lying and does not see the lie has been exposed, they merely sense a threat to their control and you become the problem which results in the application of a further manipulation through the application of the Second Line.
Dependent on the school of narcissist, the response may be plausible or be completely ridiculous, but it will be used because the narcissist is blind to the lie. All that matters is asserting control and quashing your challenge in some way.
You may receive some ridiculous comment which lacks credibility but it will be accompanied by a manipulation such as physical violence, smashing the phone on which your evidence is presented, a circular conversation, a bout of projection, a sudden massive word salad or any other form of manipulation from the many at our disposal, but it will always come.
It is akin to those films where someone is home alone and the madman or monster bursts into the house. The victim falls backwards, frantically scrambling away and reaching for anything, absolutely anything to use against the advancing threat to counter it. Sometimes the victim will reach for a gun and shoots countering the aggressor, thus that narcissist came up with a plausible response to being caught in a lie, sometimes the victim throws a knife, a candlestick or a rubber chicken. All have varying levels of effectiveness – just like the plausibility of the lie. Often you will still see through it, but it is the accompanying manipulation which enables the narcissist to scramble free of being caught in the lie.
You know the lie has been told, but that is not the issue. It is control and that is what the narcissist seeks. Even if the lie remains live and on the record, if control has been attained by punching you, flouncing off, shouting at you or embarking on a thirty minute word salad monologue then that is all that matters.
But now, let us hear from you, when you have caught the narcissist in a lie, share with u, those absolute corkers and belters that would have Pinocchio embarrassed. Explain the circumstances and what was said and then look at what else happened alongside it to realise how it is not so much the lie that matters but the need for control.
19 thoughts on “Caught In A Lie”
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Dear HG: Thank you for your videos and articles. If you “confront” a covert narc (even in a respectful way) with cheating and he goes silent, am I on the shelf, or has he left for good or is he punishing me so I never question him again? Five months silent treatment. My gut says he is with another woman and may hoover in the future when it suits him. I think he thinks it is my fault for finding out his transgression, even though I was not looking for the information.
Hello EP9,
I do not use the term “covert narc” as it is too wide and therefore unhelpful. You would need to ascertain the precise school you are dealing with. I also do not know the precise nature of the dynamic between you to determine whether you are on the shelf or not. I would recommend that you organise an email or audio consultation so that you may provide me with more detail enabling me to do justice to your query.
Mine could invent lies as fast as a greyhound out of a trap. I caught him in an affair. When he got caught out the number of different lies he told to each of us to stop us communicating was like a fast speed fairytale. However, me and the other woman compared notes, he had used the same lies to each of us (economic!!) to enable him to see us both for five months and when challenged his lies had spilled easily off his tongue. Then, despite her physical presence, him having a conversation with her in front of me when he was confronted, emails of his guilt, his emailed sort of apology (because it was my fault of course) three years down the line he flat out lied he had ever had an affair. When challenged on that a week later he told me that it was my fault he had ‘given me the wrong information’ as i had been putting him under pressure in an argument. I also now realise that he made up loads of lies about events in order to gain fuel, particularly at the end when i had stopped reacting to his slights of me. I see they are lies now, but the very sad thing is that despite the pure evidence of those lies four years before, by the end i was totally believing everything he said again.
When i found that he was seeing another woman, despite he told me he had no other ongoing affair, I immediately wrote to him for an explanation. At first he denied to have met her by saying they had only a virtual interaction. When I stated that they had just started a relationship, since she had told me it clearly, he admitted so, but said that he decided to meet another woman because he felt no longer safe with me (he wrote these exact words) because I talked about his shortcomings with third parties. So it’s exactly as you describe, HG, he used the Twin Lines of Defences, Denial and Deflection
16m now!
Hello HG, is it possible to have an Upper Mid Ranger who is of the victim cadre? Do all MRN draw sympathy or only the victim? Many thanks in advance.
PS. Really enjoyed reading your “greater” article. Is this new? I haven’t seen it before.
1. Possible albeit rare.
2. All MRN will use Pity Plays but to varying degrees.
3. Thank you. No, it is not.
Is it possibile that an UMR feign to be’ a Victim albeit not belonging to the Victim Cadre?
Yes.
Yes, I know this situation!
Lover narc (EX lover narc!!) Was caught in lies and he used flat out deniability. No excuses what so ever. Ever.
He flatly refused what I was saying and then used affection (laced with mockery) to subdue me.
After the denial, he would cuddle me and become sweet and say things like “my girl, so crazy, but in a cute way”.
Or “You are so crazy, but it’s ok, because it’s the good kind of crazy, not the bad kind”.
Or “You are so tired, you need a rest, maybe a holiday?”.
Of course it was always wrapped with cuddles or a risque touch to take my attention from the point at hand. And it always worked!
But my red-flag-o-meter was always triggered and chiming.
Hrm….yeah. I’m not crazy. But I do make myself crazy with all of this.
It is utterly fantastical that this cruel personality type exists. Fascinating and heart breaking!
There was one time we were on holidays. He told me that he wanted to rent a car. He said the person that owned the rent a car place would drive him there to go pick it up. I waited at the hotel with my kids at the time and he took half a day. He came back with no car and told me the person that he wanted to rent the car from left him up in the mountains.. I believed him at the time. Same holiday he would leave me in the hotel at night to go hang out at the bar. I believed him both times those were lies as he Is a Narcissist and he was getting his fuel elsewhere . Why did I believe him? It’s called trust I guess .
I’ve got one.
Before I went NC again with my ex-BF (he’s hoovered me on-and-off for years), he lied about being “very ill” (he went to great lengths to tell me he was going to be hospitalized for awhile)…I live a lengthy plane ride away from him, so I’m pretty unclear on what the point of all this was. Deep down, I thought he was lying, because he was way too detailed about it, which isn’t like him. However, I semi-talked myself into believing he was seriously ill. Ugh, me & my freakin’ spongy heart — always a problem.
So guilty me checked in on him a week later, sending a brief “please send me a quick email & let me know how you’re doing” message…no response. Then guiltier me checked again, about 4 days later, and left a “concerned about you – please just let me you’re ok” message…still no response. Hear that sucking sound? Yep, this is starting to make me feel really crappy…
I was half-worried & half pissed off, thinking: “He’s probably getting fuel from these messages of concern — you’ve been narced, you idiot, Caroline!”
The next series of missteps is because I wanted to know how to feel: Pissed or worried. Please, someone make up my mind.
Whether he was ever at the hospital or not, who knows. Maybe briefly. But however it began, I know it ended as him trying to deceive/upset me for fuel. I’d like to proudly say I went NC without anymore info, because that would be the wisest thing to do, now wouldn’t it? But by now, I was feeling awful that he may have died (I know, I know…but he’s a good deal older than me, and he has one health issue)…so…
I took a deep breath — blocked my phone number (which I have never done) & called his cell…he picked up. Ok, that’s all I wanted to know, but I’m too ME to just hang up on anyone. So I calmly said, “It’s Caroline.” I could tell from the huge pause that it totally threw him off — totally ruined the whole “silent treatment from hospital hell.” He finally said: “I see.” Kinda bitchy-like too.😂
I dryly said: “So I guess you’re alive.”
He hung up on me.
Was it something I said?😂
I THEN went NC…and he’s shown up thrice at my workplace to try (unsuccessfully) to see me. No matter how much I learn about NPD, I still don’t totally get it.
I can see that if a mid-ranger or lesser felt a certain way at the time they said something, they feel justified no matter the outcome. With no acceptance of responsibility, their words and actions expire just like parking tickets or milk in the fridge. In their subconscious we are objects and they have ownership so we are at their mercy and disposal. In this way they believe their own lies. I thought that was impossible, but I can see it now.
To think so many of us saw them as complex or troubled souls which would require a level of introspection e.g., to be troubled by one’s own behaviour. The emotionally stunted and basic truth is far less compelling. Relationships without human connection are fascinating, particularly in a modern world where we are ruled by technology (disposable and superseded frequently) but they are definitely not for me.
Well stated.
We had plans together and he canceled to say he had to go to a funeral. I drove to his office and saw his car, there was no funeral. I posted a passive aggressive picture on my Instagram page about liars and questioned him via text. He ignored the text but then eventually responded (after seeing my post) to question if my post was about him. I maintained my own plausible deniability by telling him that it might and it might not be. but I sarcastically said “if the shoe fits…”
He immediately backed down and said “I need a break from you”
I asked him why. And he said “unless you can tell me that your post was not about me and that you don’t think I’m lying then I want a break from you…”
I backed down and didn’t challenge him further. And he took a break from me anyway.
After lying about go out of town for Thanksgiving (I let that slide) the day he was leaving he said I have to run to my house and pick up some Gatorade for the ride to the airport. The train is approaching our stop, he gets out of the seat and backs up so I can get out of the seat and stand in front of him. I had to lift his backpack to do so and it was really heavy. I looked at him and he said “OH….they gave us lunch at work and there was a ton of Gatorade left so I took it all”!!
HUH?????
the MMRN lied to confuse so I learned to read his messages and avoid asking him. I would say nothing (loved his company) and waited for him to lie. In the past, I would accuse him but after dealing with me a few times he gets terrified and flees. Read the article Fuel, Fight or Flight by HG. For the empath just leave and ignore. The things we know they hate… Investigate things for yourself. You are the trustworthy one.
The biggest lie was he lost his job “bc of Trump his department was closed.” Half true. I asked other sources. His dept was closed but they would have kept him on except for “several sexual harassment charges.” I confirmed by reading his FB messages from coworkers who were asking him to come explain. He was caught and had no choice but to admit to her “I did those things….” It was vulnerable and sad at the same time. A defensive lie and for his facade but most them were not. The textbook Victim MMRN and the hiding empath who didn’t want to take anymore lumps. Again… research things yourself. Know their fuel matrix all of the articles are here. That is how they structure their life (their fuel) and they don’t deviate much. It’s spooky…
She always mentioned her ex.I begged her to remove him from Instagram she said wasn’t communicating with him. She unfollowed him then I caught her following back. She said it was a glitch or ex hacked her. About month later I checked and they were still following each other and his private account was now public. I saw all kinds of comments going way back. I called her out and she said I was controlling and a jealous bastard. I told her she had been gaslighting me and she discarded me.
Years after leaving my children’s father and finding this site I now realize that he was a narcissist. The lies made me crazy. At the time I thought it was some sort of sickness he had but now I can put a label on it. His hold on me was not as strong as the last narc and he was easy to leave. Pairing this with the twin lines of defense has given me a better picture of what I was dealing with narc #2.