Save The Children



If there is one thing which will often scupper an attempt to escape our clutches, it is the existence of children. On the one hand the existence of children created by you and our kind often results in you continuing to endure the relationship for the sake of the children rather than separate. On the other hand, even if you do decide that it is better to separate than stay with our kind, you are rarely able to truly escape because of the shared connection that exists because of the children. Even though you wish to escape the roller coaster existence of being with our kind, as an empathic person you behave fairly and recognise that the children should see their other parent and thus you either make provision or allow for contact to continue between our kind and the children which in turn means that there must inevitably remain contact between you and us. You may however take the draconian step of deciding that it is in the best interests of the children to have no contact with the narcissistic (although usually you only realise the other parent is abusive rather than narcissistic at this juncture) parent and cut all contact off. This then results in our kind turning to formal means through the courts to establish contact with the child or children again.

Your concerns in respect of the involvement of our kind in the raising of children cover numerous factors.

  1. You are concerned that our behaviour will affect the children so that they in turn become narcissists;
  2. You are worried that our behaviour leads to the children witnessing abusive behaviour towards you which will upset the children;
  3. You are concerned that our behaviour will lead to the children not receiving a stable and nurturing upbringing;
  4. You are worried that the children will be used as pawns between you and us and adversely influence so they are turned against you;
  5. You are concerned by our failing to provide emotional and financial support which will in turn impact on the children; and
  6. You are worried that our behaviours will effectively spoil what should be happy moments in childhood.

These, along with others, are legitimate concerns. It becomes especially difficult for you when you find that you face a battle between doing what is right for a child even though this may clash with what they want. They want to spend time with us but you see such time as toxic and having an influence on the child (who as a child cannot see or comprehend what is happening) which is at best unhelpful and at worst downright damaging. How do you deal with a situation where you need to do what is right and best for a child, even though they will not see this at the time? First of all, what must you understand about our attitude towards children and parenting?

  1. Children are regarded as appliances by us. There is no distinction made for the fact that they are children nor that we are their parent. We see children as appliances and devices which are extension of ourselves and therefore there to do our bidding. You should never be under any illusion that a narcissistic parent loves the child. Do not be fooled into thinking that any benign act exhibited by our kind is a manifestation of love towards a child. It is not;
  2. This pervading mind set means that children will be used in order to gather fuel. This will be done directly by obtaining fuel from them. Initially this will manifest as wanting to spoil them when we have time with them so that their positive responses to this will provide us with positive fuel. We will upset, anger and frustrate children in addition to draw negative fuel as and when it is deemed appropriate. This is not done because the positive fuel has become stale (as is the case when devaluation occurs in the context of an intimate partner primary source) but is an adjunct of wanting to achieve some other aim. The two most popular aims are control and triangulation. We will provoke a negative fuel response from children in order to exert control over them, for instance, taking a toy away or forbidding them to do something that they enjoy such as watching a certain television programme or being allowed some sweets. This reinforces our control. A child is no different from any other appliance and must be subjected to our control. This control is not exerted for the benefit of the child, for instance, stopping the child from eating sweets every day because it is unhealthy, but is only done so we can establish control. In terms of triangulation, the negative emotional response will be achieved for the purposes of triangulating you. For instance, we may suggest to the child that mummy does not love the child so it becomes upset. We only care about the reaction, not the well-being of the child. We may say that the child cannot do something on your instruction, in order to both upset the child and thus gain negative fuel and at the same time smear you through this triangulation. Thus, when negative fuel is sought from a child it arises in conjunction with the desire to control and/or to triangulate.
  3. The traits and achievements of the child are up for grabs in the same way that we steal and acquire traits from adults in order to furnish our construct and make ourselves look even more appealing. Our sense of entitlement is such that the child has only won the race, come top of the class, swum that distance, secured a place on a vacation scheme as a consequence of our brilliance. We will remind you, the child and third parties that this is the case. Repeatedly.
  4. We will smear and brief against you at every available opportunity. Irrespective of the reasons why the relationship between you and us ended, we will not rise above the desire for smearing for the sake of the children. If there is an opportunity to take a pot shot at you, it will be taken. The needs of the children do not ever come before our needs. Thus if they are upset by what we say about you, we receive fuel and do not care how it affects them. If they begin to dislike you because we suggest you are too strict, we will not counter that but rather we will cultivate this position to our advantage.
  5. Just like you, children can cause criticism to us. Rather than soak it up as a mature, well-adjusted parent would, we will lash out when there is a perceived or actual criticism of us delivered by the words and/or actions of the child. This will as ever result in the ignition of fury and the manifestation of heated fury or cold fury. We will sulk with a child, turn away from them if they want support and/or shout at them. The fact they are a child is meaningless to us. The fact we as a parent owe obligations to them to behave in a mature and responsible fashion to them does not matter because our needs come first.
  6. We have no sense of responsibility or obligation to children. A lesser narcissist will see no need to maintain maintenance payments and will be content not to see work. A greater may well make such payments, not because he cares about the children but it is done to show to everybody else how generous he is and also to make you look bad if your financial contributions are not as substantial. The payment or otherwise of financial support will be used as a carrot and stick against you throughout the duration of childhood. We will only become involved in the lives of the children if we regard there as being some kind of benefit to us. Their emotional needs, education, safety etc. are irrelevant to us. We will attend a school performance not to show support to the child so they feel happy, but to show to other parents that we apparently love and support the child, so we gain fuel and infuriate you. We regard obligations as beneath us, we have no sense of accountability, our sense of entitlement means we can do as we please, our lack of guilt or conscience means there is no mechanism causing us to adopt an alternative stance.
  7. Understand that children are pawns which will ALWAYS be used to our advantage. Whether it is to bind you to us during the golden period, to make us look good to others, to draw fuel, to exert control, to triangulate, to perpetuate abuse and so forth, our interactions with our children are governed by our needs. In the same way that our interactions with you as intimate partner, or our involvement with an inner circle friend, or our dealing with a stranger are all governed by our needs first, the same is applicable to children.
  8. Attempting to curtail our involvement with the children is seen as a criticism to us, irrespective of how morally and factually correct your action may be. That is irrelevant to us. We will use the court system for our purposes. We do not wish to spend time with our children for their sake, but instead it is for our sake. We may find it boring having them but if we know the fact they stay with us one night a week upsets and angers you, we will do it in order to draw this fuel from you and therefore we will use the court system to fight. It is not a fight for the benefit of the children. It is a fight for the maintenance of our needs – fuel, control, triangulation etc.

With this mind set of ours now apparent in our interactions with you and the children, how do you deal with us?

  1. Minimise the interaction you have with us. Establish a system for messages to be sent by e-mail or text. If this is deviated from by a telephone call, do not take the call but allow voice mail to pick up the call and then you can establish how best to respond thereafter and you will not provide fuel by being tricked into answering a call. If possible, prevent any face to face contact between you and us concerning the children. We draw the most fuel from seeing your emotional reactions face to face. Remove this (where practical) and you are denying us fuel. For instance, utilise the assistance of other family members or friends for the handover of the children until such an age as when they can use transport or walk between venues safely.
  2. Ensure all communications are to the point, business-like and contain no emotion. This again denies us fuel. Establish a five-minute rule so that you never immediately respond to our communications (when you are more likely to do so in an emotional fashion as we try to provoke you). If five minutes is too short, extend the time.
  3. By denying us fuel we will (initially) try to provoke you in different ways concerning arrangements and interaction with the children. Weather that storm and because we must obtain fuel we will have to seek it elsewhere. You are not a viable source so we will eventually look to obtain fuel from you less and less. You will also eventually notice that this manifests by us losing interest in the children. Remember, we are not interested in the children per se but how they as appliances can serve us.
  4. You will face an ongoing battle between your influence and our influence. This is deliberate as it is used to provoke you into confronting us about what we say about you, what we say to the children and what we do with them. We want you to engage. You must resist the need to do so. Remember, you will not make us change. We will not listen to you. We want to control you and draw fuel from you. We use the children to achieve this. Accordingly, if the children comment that we are making disparaging comments about you: –
  5. Do not confront us about the issue, it is futile;
  6. Do not seek to influence the view of the child by saying “Dad is a bad person” this will trouble the child and the response will be conveyed to us which will secure Thought Fuel for us and also provide us with further ammunition to use against you for your comment. Instead, move on to discussing something else  and the child is likely to forget about the comment. If the child persists in wanting to discuss the matter, then explain that Dad does things differently to you and then move on. Provide reassurance and listen to the child but do not, however tempting it may be, do or say anything disparaging as this plays into our hands. Your role is to maintain a positive influence for your children as often as you are able. By doing this (and starving us of fuel so the interaction will lessen) your positive influence will progressively outweigh our negative influence. The more you expose your children to a positive influence and avoid walking into our traps and playing into our hands, you will tip the balance so that they will, through the effluxion of time and exposure to this positive influence flourish under it and make their own minds up.
  7. In a similar fashion to how you must deal with a smear campaign, do not tell the children what to think, but allow them to make up their own minds. This will be difficult at first and you will no doubt find yourself on the receiving end of hurtful and challenging behaviour. Keep in mind that this is our influence (not what the child really thinks) and that as you weather the storm, the effects of your positive influence will eventually manifest. As the children become older you can present them with independent evidence of behaviour (not just hearsay and say so) so they can evaluate this for themselves and make their own minds-up. Like third parties, children do not want to be involved in a conflict between two people and they do not want to be told what to do. Cater for this and you will minimise disruption and increase your positive influence.
  8. Your approach is one of ensuring the “light side” overcomes the “dark side”. This can only be achieved by repeated reinforcement of positive behaviour and influence. If you engage in behaviours similar to ours, you enter onto our home turf and you will not only encourage us to keep going with our behaviours but you will find there is a negative outcome for both you and the children.
  9. If our behaviour is serious in terms of impact on the children – for instance violence or neglect – involve the relevant authorities. You will not be able to cause us to recognise we have done anything wrong because we either do not recognise that we have or we will not admit it for the purposes of maintaining control.
  10. If you regard it as appropriate, save messages and e-mails which exhibit our behaviour and allow the child access to them when an adult. This is again the presentation of independent evidence when they are in a position to make their own minds up. You must not engage in a popularity contest or sling mud; you will lose as this is playing into our hands.
  11. If you find yourself having to engage with us through the court system, ensure those representing you are familiar with our kind. Rely on independent evidence as much as possible rather than “he said, she said”. Recognise that we are experts at duping people and our lawyers, your lawyers, psychologists, court officials and judges can just as easily be duped. If a hearing does not go your way, resist the urge to lash out at us – it is of course just fuel – and instead continue to adopt a positive approach towards your children. That must always be your focus. We want you to engage with us and we will use children and the court system to provoke you to do this. Fail to engage and you take away much of our power.

It is hard. A narcissistic parent is a fact. We will not go away so long as we are getting what we want or believe we can do so. Prevent us from getting what we want, demonstrate to us that we are unlikely to get what we want and we will turn our attention elsewhere. This will then allow your positive influence to have an even greater bearing on the children and undo any harmful effects from our toxic influence. You will face challenges but by trying to address our behaviour, cater for it and pander to it, you will not succeed in protecting your children. I have seen this first hand.

21 thoughts on “Save The Children

  1. nozean93 says:

    Thank you so much Mr Tudor,you nailed it.
    Although it’s really hard and exhausted to deal with someone who is a mother hater,and wants to take your role since the first day you gave birth to your can you deal with the trauma bond he creates to the children as well?how can you protect an almost 7 years old boy and a 5years old girl from that?

    1. Lorelei says:

      Good questions Nozean—I’ve never heard of the relationship with their children being essentially “trauma bonds.”
      It’s really a form of a trauma bond isn’t it? I suppose it defines what my relationship was with my father. Calling it what it is or was.

      1. nozean93 says:

        I witness it everyday for the last 6’s definitely (at least in my case) a trauma bond,I could type for hours to prove it.
        They can’t love their children deeply, unselfishly and genuinely..their relationship with their children is almost similar to the one with their SO or a replacement to the one with their SO,or whatever sick relationship you can think of, which leads to a trauma bond.

        1. Lorelei says:

          I have walked past a photo of my dad holding one of my kids this past week and I tore it up today. It was a nuisance.💕

  2. WokeAF says:

    My (I think) ML Victim babydaddy was always sweet and kind to the kids until they got old enough to challenge his superiority

    He reduced the golden child , our daughter, to an anxiety attack and tears (HIGHLY unusual) in a convo about Trump .
    He’s a Trump fan (naturally) and that’s fine but my daughter who’s always been understanding, compassionate, well behaved and mature – simply wouldn’t change her point of view to agree with her father’s, and he went OFF.

    I had a lot of trouble with seeing he was a narc bc he was never emotionally or otherwise abusive to the kids (Then again they always lived with me primarily – he got to be weekend dad) UNTIL the last few years when they got older and had their own views.
    And now he’s pretty much disappeared.
    (Then again , screaming at mom in front of them And triangulating them into the argument is abusive.)

    Anyhow – question HG – Why do Narc dads cry when the babies are born?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      For some it is done as a consequence of the fuel being provided as the narc father is being congratulated. For others it is a pity play to draw attention (and thus fuel) to exert control over people who are fussing over mother and child. It depends on the circumstances Woke, but either way, it is not as a consequence of any emotional empathy, joy, delight etc at being a father (although of course the Mid Rangers (who will mainly be the ones who cry) think that is the case.

  3. ThePolicyOfTruth says:

    Ugh, having a narc parent is the worst! (Although I hardly need remind you of that, HG!)

    My mother is a narc and she was most definitely in one of her “trying to acquire negative fuel from me” moods today.

    My mother-in-law passed away on Saturday, so really I’m just NOT in the mood for my own mother’s venomous text messages right now, but naturally she doesn’t care that we’re all grieving here.
    Nope, rather I was treated to a delightful barrage of nonsense about how she feels sorry for my children because I don’t take them to church often enough. Apparently this makes me a terrible mother and means my kids are “running around wild with no direction in life like savages.”

    I didn’t rise to the bait though. I remained calm and told her I’ll speak to her when her mood passes. I realised there would be no point telling her I’ll speak to her once she’s obtained her negative fuel from some other poor soul, because she wouldn’t have understood what I was saying. She’s definitely not a Greater.

    She then continued to rant but I ignored her messages until she gave up.

    HG you’ve given me the power not to get upset (well not more than a tiny bit) by my mother. That’s something I never thought would be achievable. I’m 35 years old and my mother still had the power to make me cry, it’s ridiculous! Not any more.

    Thank you!

  4. Pati says:

    HG, thank you for this. I still cannot believe the fact that he doesn’t love his children. My youngest child looks just him. When I Iook into those crystal blue eyes i want to cry .I see that he does use them for fuel He has never been mean to them ever! They praise and love him .I havent seen devaluation. He does triangulate my youngest daughter. When he walks through the front door he will kiss her,hug her,since he doesnt do that with me . I am afraid that they might follow in his foot steps. I will save the rest with my consulatation with HG as this is so hard for me write right now.

  5. WhoCares says:

    “Save The Children”…indeed.

    How very timely HG; today is the day when I *should* have had to attend court in response to my ex’s Appeal with regard to his access to our child. It has been a long, difficult battle – but a fruitful one. My ex, being a Mid-ranger, was able to convince a lawyer to support his appeal (he was self-representing in the beginning) which was intimidating to me – except he had a very weak appeal (my opinion and my lawyer’s). Their intimidation did not succeed – including an Offer to Settle (which I had to consider because of the passage of time and some apparent evidence of a ‘material change in circumstance’ that they were to produce). Because a year had passed since the final order and the supposed proof of change – I had to agree to a compromise even though I didn’t want to or believe that the proof existed.

    Turns out, the proof – a letter from a counselor – not only lacked any substantive proof of change or addressing key issues of concern – it reiterated his blame-shifting and lack of accountability evident from the very beginning of our court case.
    He had no choice but to withdraw his Appeal – with cost – and I didn’t have to agree to any changes.
    He only sees our child every two weeks for a limited time under supervised conditions, which will continue until he can somehow come up with further evidence of a change…and more money, I suspect.

    Thank-you so much HG for helping me protect my child – if I didn’t understand Narcissism and what to expect from Mid-rangers regarding children, co-parenting and the court process, I would have caved by now and given in to some kind of compromise out of the pressure and stress of dealing with the legal system. But knowing what I know, I was able to hold out and – not only prove to my own lawyer that my ex cannot change – but to force my ex’s hand when he actually had *nothing.*

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You’re welcome

    2. NarcAngel says:

      I’m very glad to read this today and proud of you. It is posts like yours that solidify that our focus and clear headed determination when applied to fixing a situation (as opposed to trying to fix a relationship with a narc lol) paired with HG’s excellent information and guidance, will bring great results. I am thinking of you and cheering you on even when you are not here posting. You’re a great mom.

      1. WhoCares says:

        Thank-you, NA, your comment means a lot…the whole thing is hugely relieving – especially when the system one is up against holds the belief that (all) people can change. Narcissists surely can (and do) exploit this – but we know better here!

    3. Lorelei says:

      Whocares—I’ve successfully made
      my ex appear just as he is. It amuses me to no end. He’s very attractive and charming yet people are rolling their eyes despite because of what I’ve been able to convey and in the manner I’ve done it. This article was a first out of everything I looked at. He offers no benefit to my children aside from giving them rides to places and making grilled cheese sandwiches. He won’t even take my son golfing. It’s deplorable how useless he is.

    4. Mercy says:

      WhoCares, This is something to celebrate! I’ve thought about you and wondered how it was going. Thanks for sharing. I’m truly happy for you.

      1. WhoCares says:

        Thank-you Mercy! It’s definitely awesome to be able to share this outcome…I know others (in real life and here) who are at different stages of the legal process and it is a really daunting experience. If it weren’t for the accuracy of HG’s work, and an excellent lawyer, I could easily be reporting a different story…

    5. WokeAF says:

      I would GUESS if he isn’t on a malice campaign, isn’t getting any fuel from proper NC regime, and the courts keep holding him accountable to change his lifestyle— he will drop out of the picture and lose interest soon enough, content with the narrative that you kept the child from him.


      stay strong mama!! 💕

      1. WhoCares says:

        Hi WokeAF,

        He is definitely not on a malice campaign; I know for certain by having accessed HG’s work on that topic.
        My no contact is very good considering my situation. He can really only hoover me through the legal system (although he has tried to break my no contact in other ways) and he has exhausted most of his options through that route.
        How much more energy can he invest in the legal pursuit? I am unsure…he is a Mid-ranger

        As for his narrative, oh yes – you are correct. Only, his is a *very colourful* narrative of me keeping our child from him, which doesn’t do him any favours.

        Thanks for the supportive comment!

    6. ANM says:

      Thank goodness, and that’s great for you and your children. Do you mind me asking what exactly your ex filed?
      When you say “appeal”, does that mean that he appealed final judgement, and you were about to have a hearing at the Appellate Courts,
      Or did he file a petition to modify custody and child support based off of “change of circumstances”?

  6. Liza says:

    Mr.HG i have a question.
    if i understood correctly, most narcissists are mid rangers, and that their level of awarness allows them to see that they cause hurt to others but they justifie it, and think that it is diserved. in an adult vs adult situation i can somewhat understand it, but i’m curious to know how a narcissist justifies abusing a child?
    i mean a child by nature is innocent, unless you are accusing them of existing ( and even this is not their fault) you can’t say they deserve any mistreatement.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      The narcissist who abuses the child and offers justification will say things such as

      “He deserved it.”
      “She knew what she was doing.”
      “She wanted it.”
      “He needs discipline otherwise he will turn out like you.”
      “I could not help myself, it was the demons.”
      “He pushed me over the edge, he is too much to handle.”
      “Spare the rod, spoil the child.”
      “Never did me any harm.”
      And many, many others.

      1. Liza says:

        oh so they really do finde reasons even in these situation.
        thank you for tha answer Mr.HG.

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