Hoover Time – Sphere One (Lesser, Mid Range and Greater Narcissists)



There are many different hoovers but the ones which attract the most attention are those which take place post discard or post escape, namely the Initial Grand Hoover which is the bombardment which follows you escape in order to drag you back into our world or the Follow-Up Hoovers (either Benign of Malign) which take place later and happen irrespective of whether the method of cessation of the Formal Relationship was your escape or our discard.

The Initial Grand Hoover is the most concentrated post escape hoover and its efficacy depends on the type of narcissist you are dealing with and the defences you have created as part of instigating no contact. If there has been no IGH owing to Discard or the relevant factors have not caused on to happen post escape, then it is the Follow-Up Hoover (“FUH”) which is often discussed by victims because that is the one which is most feared, the one which is most expected and most recognised. In some instances, it is even the case that this hoover is actually wanted by the victim for reasons I have expounded previously. The fascination with the FUH is such that people wonder when it is going to happen, how it will happen, will it happen at all, will it happen many times and so forth. I always explain that whether a FUH takes place is primarily determined by whether you have entered one of the six spheres of influence. The first five are entered by you doing something or being in a particular place. The sixth is when you just happen to pop up in our mind for whatever reason. However, the fact that you have entered the relevant sphere of influence is not the only deciding factor as to whether the FUH will take place. There alwayshas to have been an appearance in a sphere of influence for the FUH to be triggered. Whether it is then executed against you depends on other factors. Those factors are as follows: –

  1. The narcissist’s current fuel supplies;
  2. Did you escape or is that you were discarded;
  3. The manner of this escape or discard;
  4. The ease of contact with you;
  5. The nature of the fuel to be obtained;
  6. Potential obstacles.
  7. The type of narcissist you are involved with.

These factors have differing applicability subject to the school of narcissist that you have been entangled with.

How then does our kind approach the prospective hoover? I shall explain what (if anything) goes through our minds, what we consider and how we might go about it by reference to each of the schools of narcissism (Lesser, Mid-Range and the Greater) and by reference to each sphere of influence.

Accordingly, the first sphere is the one where you are physically proximate to you. This is where you are within earshot of us and we are able to get near enough to you to talk to you and see your reactions. It might be the case that you have called around to see us for whatever reason, you may have to interact with us at a school event where our children attended or you may be in a bar or restaurant that we have walked into or vice versa. What is our response?

  1. The Lesser Narcissist

The Lesser is not going to turn this opportunity down when it is presented on a plate for him. If his fuel supplies are good, for instance he has a new primary source and/or he is fuelled from supplementary sources this will increase his energy level to hoover you. If his fuel supplies are low (he has not yet secured a new primary source and supplementary sources are low functioning for him) he will still seek to hoover because this is much needed fuel. The fuel levels will affect the type of hoover. Higher fuel levels are more likely to lead to a benign hoover, lower to a malign hoover. This is because the Lesser will not have the energy to charm but rather needs a quick fix when those fuel levels are low. Furthermore, the fact he has no primary source in place yet will of course be your fault because you escaped (a narcissist will not discard without an alternative being available).

If you were discarded, he is not going to ignore the opportunity and if you escaped he will certainly not ignore this opportunity. There is a score to settle and if you escaped this also increases the likelihood of the FUH being malign.

The manner of your escape or discard does not matter to the Lesser, he will not be considering this as he is like a ravenous beast who has just seen a fresh piece of meat placed in reach. He is not considering whether the meat might trigger a trap or be poisoned, all he knows is that he is hungry for that juicy flesh again.

The ease of contact is also not something that the Lesser is bothered about. You are in front of him, that is all that matters. It does not matter who is there or where this proximate contact takes place the fact is you are there in front of him, tempting and inviting. This appearance overrides such considerations.

The nature of fuel is not a major concern either to the lesser in such a situation. Once again he just knows there is fuel available and he wants it. He does not concern himself with how much you used to provide, how potent it was, whether you will still yield this fuel or not, all he knows is that he is going to feel far more powerful by interacting with you. Remember the Lesser is not aware of what fuel is, how it governs him, all he knows is that when he upsets you, makes you smile, makes you praise him and so on he feels so much better. That is the dominant thought running through his mind. He is not concerning himself with whether he is going to secure the resumption of the Formal Relationship with you. That may or may not happen. That is like asking the ravenous beast whether he is going to eat five or six carcasses. He does not know or care. He just wants to sink his teeth into the first one and then go from there.

Potential obstacles do not cross his mind either. The risk of being rejected is not a consideration, the potential for wounding will not cross his mind because you are there in front of him. Remember, the Lesser has very little self-control and he is chomping at the bit to interact with you.

The Lesser will immediately stop what he is doing and make a bee-line for you and launch into a hoover. The only consideration with a Lesser who sees you in the first sphere of influence is whether this hoover will be malign or benign in nature. He will have no regard to his surroundings as he will adopt tunnel vision as his you his prey is presented square in his sights. He will either bound over with puppy dog eyes and slavering tongue or pounce on you with snarls and teeth bared. You will always be hoovered by a Lesser in the first sphere.

  1. The Mid-Ranger

The effect of the fuel supplies with a Mid-Ranger are reversed compared to that of a Lesser. If the Mid-Ranger has high fuel supplies (he has a new primary source) he is likely to be malign because he will not be able to resist bragging about his new girlfriend/fiancée/wife etc. in order to provoke a jealous reaction. He will also comment about how much happier he is and how he is better off without you. If his fuel levels are lower (no primary source yet found or it is not performing) he will present in a more pitiful manner and therefore will be benign. He will sign your praises, explain how much he misses you, how empty life is without you and so forth in a bid to draw positive fuel from you and draw you back into the Formal Relationship. By appearing in front of him he cannot forego this opportunity to take centre stage in his own pity play and hoover you.

If you escaped expect the pity to increase. If you were discarded expect the nature of the hoover to be arrogant. The nature of cessation and also its manner will have an aggravating or diminishing factor on the effect caused by the nature of the fuel supplies. The influence of the fuel is greater than the effect of the cessation and how it occurred.

By way of example, if the Mid Ranger has high fuel levels and you escaped, he will be boastful but at the back of his mind he knows you escaped him and he is alive to that fact now. His comments will be passive aggressive in nature,

“Yes well you did what you did but it is okay I forgive you because I have Jessica now.”

If the Mid Ranger has high fuel levels and he discarded you he will extoll the virtues of his new supply without any restraint, singing her praises in order to try to upset you.

If the Mid Ranger has low fuel levels and discarded you, his pity will still be the overwhelming consideration but he will exhibit contrition, as the fact of the discard will temper the contrition somewhat.

If the Mid Ranger has low fuel levels and you escaped, the pity will flow like a river and it was all your fault, you were awful to him and how could you do that to someone like him?

In terms of the ease of contact, since you are in the Mid-Ranger’s close proximity he is not going to pass this opportunity up and therefore, subject to the other considerations, the ease of contact will increase the likelihood of a hoover.

With regard to the nature of the fuel the Mid-Range will be a little more circumspect. Whereas the Lesser will just see prey and bound towards it to nuzzle it or devour it, the Mid-Ranger will exhibit some evaluation of whether the fuel provision will be good or not. If he is able to note that you are still numbed form the encounter with him and therefore less likely to provide potent fuel, he will still hoover (because you are there) but he will not expend a lot of energy in doing so. The conversation will be brief. If he recalls how excellent your fuel was and sees no reason for this to have changed then he will latch on to you for a good feed of fuel.

In respect of obstacles, the Mid-Ranger will have some regard to them. If he perceives that you are going to wound him again or humiliate him (perhaps you are with friends or a new partner) he will still attempt the hoover but the engagement will be brief. If there are no obstacles and subject to the other considerations detailed above, he will hoover you and either be pleasant yet pitiful in order to draw you back in or exhibit arrogance in order to draw negative fuel and lay down a marker in the hope of causing you to feel upset and dismayed you are no longer with him (thus priming you for a different kind of follow-up hoover after this initial skirmish).

The Mid-Ranger will always hoover when you appear in the first sphere. The main considerations are the type of FUH and how sustained it will be.

  1. The Greater

What then of the Greater?

If fuel levels are high then expect a charming hoover which will be a combination of praising you, declaring how well you look, him showing off about his latest achievements, discussing his new car or new paper that he written. He is feeling powerful but also generous with it. You can share in his grandiosity. The Greater will flirt with you even if the new primary source is there. This is too good an opportunity to miss to draw fuel from two sources and copious amounts of it.

If fuel levels are low the Greater will actually be wary. This is because he knows that there is a risk that he will be wounded (see the other considerations) and therefore he is mindful, owing to his awareness, that significant damage might be done to him. He will therefore evaluate the situation carefully before proceeding.

If you were discarded and fuel levels are high, the ebullience of the Greater will override any potential adverse reaction you might exhibit. On the contrary he will think that you will be so delighted to see him that you will fall into his arms in an instant under another dose of concentrated magnetism and charisma.

If you escaped and fuel levels are high, the Greater will relish the opportunity to draw you back in and settle a score not by lashing out but by winning you over again to prove how masterful and commanding he is.

If fuel levels are low and you were discarded, the Greater will sense that fuel remains available and he will approach. If you were discarded with no explanation he knows that if you are angry about the manner of the discard, then he gains fuel. If you are upset about the manner of the discard he gains fuel. If you discarded with some kind of good-bye he knows that you will still hold out hope for the resumption of the Formal Relationship and therefore he will approach and hoover, being cautiously charming and respectful.

If fuel levels are low and you escaped, the Greater will be very wary that you may deal with him in a manner which will wound. He will carefully evaluate the situation. At this juncture he does not have the energy levels to seduce you but he sees an opportunity for fuel on his doorstep, therefore in this situation he will not be looking to charm you (that is more likely to happen on another occasion). Instead he will look to provoke a negative reaction from and lash out at you to shock, upset or anger you. This will be a vitriolic and savage verbal assault aimed at stunning you with is sudden ferocity in order to draw a concentrated burst of negative fuel which will sustain him and allow him to take delight in what he has achieved without further risk to himself.

The ease of contact is straight forward. You are there before him.

The Greater is the best at evaluating the likely fuel to be provided. He will know if you are likely to fountain with fuel and therefore you will prove extremely tempting. It just depends on whether he ought to press the buttons for positive fuel (see considerations above) or to opt for negative as just described. He will also be able to sense if fuel provision is likely to be low (for instance you are adopting low/no fuel techniques or your levels are low owing to the emotional state you are in). He will factor this likely level of reward into determining what he will do. The Greater is more likely to draw fuel (even if levels are low) from you, given his expertise and it is a question of whether it is positive or negative.

The Greater will also take into careful account any potential obstacles before making his move. He will handle any challenge from friends or a new boyfriend for example with ease if his fuel levels are high, by charming and deflecting any attempts to do him down. If fuel levels are low, he will look to draw negative fuel form your supporters as well in a similar way as he will from you with a short, sharp shock.

The Greater will assess the situation before making his move. He will either sweep in full of charm, effusive praise and grandiosity, sweeping you off your feet or slide a knife between your ribs, sink his teeth into your neck and bludgeon those accompanying you before darting away in a smash and grab of negative fuel.

For all three schools your physical presence is too much to resist and you will be hoovered. What is affected is the manner, duration and type of FUH you are subjected to. Accordingly, you should be aware that if you make yourself directly physically available to your narcissist you will be hovered.

98 thoughts on “Hoover Time – Sphere One (Lesser, Mid Range and Greater Narcissists)

  1. Nadège says:

    Thank you, H.G. Tudor, for your elaborate reaction; I only just saw it today. I think you are right about the emotional thinking and the confusion of seeing him (or not). But I have certainly seen him many times in places where he should not have been. Other times, I could not be sure, and that must have been my emotional thinking (and a form of mental dissociation, something that I have never experienced before and that creeps me out).

    I will check the assistance package and think about how to organise a consultation with you. Thanks again!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Jolly good.

  2. Nadège says:

    Hello Mr. Tudor,

    Last Wednesday I vented my spleen on this thread, but my contribution never came through. This also happened to some of my earlier posts: they were never published on your site, so I am confused and would like to know if I am doing something wrong? Thank you!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Nadege,

      Thank you for your query. Your comments are in moderation as they are longer posts with questions which means they may remain in moderation (please see the Rules). Also, there has been a backlog created as a consequence of my absence over Christmas and New Year. You have not done anything wrong. Your comments will appear in due course.

      1. Nadège says:

        Thank you Mr. Tudor!

  3. Kristin says:

    You are breaking my heart! What will it take for you to see in yourself what so many other see? You are NOT fucked; you are in the right place and never apologize for being so honest. I have revealed things on this post and to HG that my closest friends don’t even know about. You will get to the point of not needing people to “get you” and since you have been beaten down so badly, you know no other way. As others have told me and as I believe, it is safe here and you are able to vent and learn more here and with HG than with some sorry ass therapist who doesn’t know what the hell they are talking about. I can relate to so much of what you are saying so please do not give up. I am trusting the angels and HG because they are all I have and I won’t survive this hell on earth without them. You can and will do this.

    1. singasongy says:

      Thanks, Kristin! I appreciate your concern, as I told Denise, its really okay. I mean I just live this way and its the way it is, I don’t want anyone here to feel sorry for me. I promise others have it so much worse than me. Ive got an amazing immediate family that loves me and supports me. They are the ones I feel sorry for, ha ha. dealing with my needy ass all the time.
      Perhaps, because we are all being so honest here without judgement while also being objective towards one each other, that is the magic potion? Even when I saw my shrinks for a couple years I never could tell all the honest truths to them. They always said I was outsmarting them and to try to go with their therapy. Their therapy wasn’t anything more than lets figure out how to make you feel better about yourself. I knew their stupid ploys like standing over me and telling me to imagine it is my mom and tell her what I always wanted to say bullshit. Nothing works. When I was a kid my sister would put sticky on the mirror saying how I looked good so I wouldn’t ask her a million times before I went out on a Friday night. I mean come on. I’ve been this way since birth when I was born a daughter instead of a son.

      But after researching all of this so hard, I’ve realized this is NOT ME. Its them. How freeing? I mean, freeing!! All this time all I hear is my parents telling me what a bad person I am and its always my fault. So that is what I always think. Now I am seeing evidence, real HARD evidence that its not my fault. That is huge. This might be the answer.

      1. Kristin says:

        No pity or feeling sorry for you, I wouldn’t want that but I was just concerned. You have so much insight about yourself and are obviously more in tune than the therapists but that doesn’t surprise me! It is NOT YOU and please keep reminding yourself of that. You are battling the horrible mistruths that were told to you from the beginning, that is not an easy task. I am learning just how difficult it is to change what is engrained in us all and it is a day to day struggle. Realizing it is not your fault is huge and you are moving forward.

        It is early but I wanted to say HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!! I hope you can celebrate you and have a wonderful day.
        Big hugs to you xx 🙂

        1. singasongy says:

          thank you, Kristin. I can tell you are a person I would be very careful around in my life. you are most empathetic and caring. I see this and have some friends like you in my life. I am very careful to not take advantage of them. I know they will give me the positive feedback I need in order to make myself have self worth. I am very very careful around my friends like this because I know I tend to manipulate to get that feedback I need. I know that I will beat a dead horse if I keep asking them over and over how I look or if I did well at training and they will tire and leave me. I am repeating myself because that’s how important this topic is to me, it is something I battle EVERY>SINGLE>DAY… not to take advantage of the tender heart of these people. So when I get an outpouring of support on here it intimidates me. I don’t want to come off as trying to garner pity, ya know? I am sure you know what I mean. We are probably very similar. I’m sure we’d be friends in the real world but we’d never settle on where to go eat if we were on our own, ha ha ha. And thanks for the birthday wishes its today! 45 years old! wow! Half way to death. I plan on 90.

          1. Kristin says:

            “Halfway to death”, you’re a hot mess! Yes, we would be friends and I can’t make a decision to save my life so we would never be able to go anywhere. Enjoy your day and keep being you 🎂 🍷 😊

  4. deniseisdone says:

    Hello!! You’re not fucked up first of all. Please don’t feel that way…it’s self defeating!
    Secondly I had NO LT when I came here – I was all over the place – a total wreck!! HG made me (us) understand ET and LT – took me a little time but finally got there! You will too!!
    Lastly and honestly I must have COME ALL NARCS stamped on my forehead (ridiculous) but with HG’s work I’m learning to identify red flags so yes I am proud for me!! HUGE STEP!
    Please stay positive and have a great day!

    1. singasongy says:

      thank you, Denise! Yes, I know its self defeating, and thank you for being concerned. Honestly, I am fine, I don’t want anyone feeling sorry for me. I am just being objective about myself.
      As far as your LT goes, that is something I was wondering about so I appreciate you telling me that. And I’m so glad you are doing well at identifying the red flags. That is all our goals so its good to know we are accomplishing them!

      1. deniseisdone says:

        Singasongy glad to hear that you’re fine and we’re all accomplishing our goals! Doesn’t it feel wonderful? HUGS!!

  5. Nadège says:

    Thank you, HG Tudor, this article is enlightening.

    I have been hoovered many times. Stalking is a way of hoovering, is it not? But stalking is also nerve wrecking: for more than a year I could hardly sleep or concentrate, and I was very afraid. This man is a psychopath. On the narcissist-scale I would say he is a midrange (mid or upper) narcissist. (But since he is a psychopath, I am not sure). He is not physically abusive; he is above that and indulges in psychological abuse and sadistic mind-gameplaying. He can never be blamed for anything, because he makes sure there is no proof, or he makes his victims complicit or bribable.

    The stalking has been intense. He would emerge in front of my house in the middle of the night; I saw him standing in the dark when I closed the curtains. He would walk past me in the park and pretended not to recognize me, while looking me straight in the eye. He has stalked me on more than thirty occasions. He was everywhere. The loss of freedom was awful. It felt like being a Big Brother-candidate against my will; the cameras (his eyes) were following my every step.

    Eight weeks ago, I was at the end of my rope. He had recently become a father, much to my surprise and shock, but if I had hoped that the stalking would stop after the birth, I was dead wrong. It only intensified. I decided it was time to shake him off: I have started using a secret escape gate instead of the front door. This way, he cannot see me leave my house. It is tricky, because I do not want him to figure out my escape route – it will only tell him that I am afraid and that will be delicious fuel. Also, I hate to be forced into this crazy ‘hide and seek’-game; I simply want to live my life.

    Anyway, I seem to have outsmarted him, because I have not seen him in eight (8!) straight weeks! That is a record. But to be honest, I am more anxious than before my escape. Crazy, is it not? But even if I do not see him, I can feel his hatred and his malicious rage – because no one outsmarts a narcissist! Who do I think I am?

    I will have to be punished. He wants me put away in an asylum, I suppose. This man will not back off.

    Or will he…? Maybe I read too much in the fact that he has suddenly vanished from the internet altogether: if I google his name, there are no hits. None. Even his company name is unknown. (I know that I should not search for him on the internet, but with an obsessive stalker on my tail, I simply cannot sit back and relax.) I am sure that his internet vanishing-act has everything to do with me: he is copying my behavior, as always, by making himself just as invisible and untracable.

    HG Tudor, I understand that you cannot read this man’s mind, but I hope that you can tell me if there is a chance that my escape has wounded him so badly that he will not give me the ‘honor’ of being hoovered and stalked again? Or do I have to prepare myself for his malicious revenge? Do narcissist-stalkers ever back off?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Nadege, this is a detailed matter and you should organise a consultation with me. I will state at this point

      1. He may not actually have been hoovering when you thought he was. The figure you saw may not have been him.
      2. Your ET will impact on your perception of matters. Please see “How To Stop The Hoovers” Assistance Package.
      3. If it is him waiting outside your house and walking past you, he would not necessarily always know that (for instance when you close the curtains) it is you (I accept he will when he walks past you). Therefore, his disappearance may be because he failed to see you again and therefore you have wounded him or it is because he is focussing elsewhere.
      4. If you have wounded him because he has not been able to see you and your reaction this is only one factor in the Hoover Execution Criteria and its effect will either be overridden by other factors and/or diminish with the passage of time, so there is a risk that he will hoover again. You never wound the narcissist sufficiently to cause a permanent absence.
      Do organise a consultation and I can help you deal with what is clearly a troubling matter for you.

  6. singasongy says:

    wow, so something really weird happened about a month ago. It was the first time it has ever gotten like that. LB asked me to do a favor. A favor his wife or kids could do for him. I blew up. It wasn’t the favor it was just the audacity. He tried so hard to flip it on me. First saying sorry its not a big deal. making me feel guilty for being pissed. Then he went into victim mode and said how he will never ask me again and trying to make me feel mean. After screaming and yelling at him at this point because he has entirely ignored why I’m actually annoyed I hung up on him. I do this a lot because I’m just tired of hearing his bullshit. He called me maybe 25 times texting for me to pick up threatening to find me. I texted him and said forget it its over. He was unchained like I’d never seen him before. He is always collected.
    WEll, he did come find me. He shut down his WHOLE business. He paid his workers and took them home and then came and found me to tell me how sorry he was and how he needs me and he won’t ask favors like that again.
    This freaked me out. I don’t want to be responsible for people not working. I don’t want to be responsible for him to not do a good job because his mind is on me. He was saying over and over I can’t believe I just did this. I can’t believe I shut down my business to find your ass. I forgave him and went back with him and we worked together without his workers there to help. Now he won’t stop throwing that in my face. How he couldn’t believe how I acted over a simple favor and how he won’t ever do that again, come find me. blah blah blah.

    Was this the initial grand hoover????

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Assuming the individual is a narcissist, that does accord with an IGH.

      1. singasongy says:

        Thank you, sent in the Narc detector so you can tell me, ha!

  7. Sweetest Perfection says:

    Moral of the story: get an invisibility cloak or alternatively, run.

    1. deniseisdone says:

      …or keep trying which I intend to do.

  8. deniseisdone says:

    Hello HG and all! This post does not belong here but I’m desperate and pissed off! I’m in a group for narcissistic abuse and see many people ask questions which in turn 1000 wrong answers come flying in – these people cannot heal with misinformation.
    This morning I wrote a post regarding the different schools of narcs – per HG so the information was correct – and I’ll be damned if quite a few people didn’t want to argue about it – criticize my source – and some just down right rude! WHY??
    Can anyone explain this to me?? People are hurting and being fed wrong information. No healing can occur when this happens.
    Does anyone have any suggestions on ways I can guide them towards the correct answers – I’ve even blatantly posted HG TUDOR ON YT praying some will take the initiative and go for themselves.
    One lady actually wrote “I can’t get past his arrogance” and I responded back “Arrogant maybe but full of knowledge”.
    So many people are hurting which does sadden me….any and all advice is most welcome!!

    Sorry HG for this post planted right here!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you for advocating my work DID.

      It is usually down to two problems :-

      1. True Victims who have high emotional thinking and do not look beyond the fact that I am a narcissistic psychopath, so they fail to recognise the value in my work. All they see is “narcissist” and there shut down and will not even give a chance to my work. They may access it later when their ET has reduced , or
      2. Narcissists who do not know what they are and are jealous of the effectiveness of my work. When you praise and advocate my work, it is Challenge Fuel. You threaten their control so they have to try and assert control over you and one way of doing so is to be dismissive, rude etc about my work.

      What you will find is that neither group will have extensively read/listened to my work and applied it. They dismiss it without actually accessing it fully and therefore their views actually have no valid bearing because it is not based on actual use and application of my work. They will not reply with a detailed exposition of how they read, understand my work but it doesn’t not work for this reason or that reason because (1) my material does actually work (2) they do not access it with any depth.
      You find that those who do not belong to groups one or two, access the work and find it is the best and the most effective and they benefit from doing so. There will always be those in groups (1) and (2).

      1. deniseisdone says:

        Thank you for explaining.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

          1. wildviolet22 says:

            I can’t remember how I stumbled across this website, but it’s definitely been helping me with crawling out of the hole I dug myself into. *Very* helpful info here. Thank you.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            You are welcome.

            It is the only source of information you will need.

        2. Lorelei says:

          Hi Denise—additionally—the ensnarement by any category is not necessarily worse or better. Think of it this way—HG states a nomadic relationship approach. He would never have given me a years long silent treatment. Maybe a year of misery and done with some occasional bullshit. (I assume) All brands of behavior “hit.” Much of my issue is the having been buried for so long and so intensely so a greater or a mid or a lesser “hits” with their own velocity. All experiences are bad.

          1. deniseisdone says:

            Thank you!!

          2. Lorelei says:

            You are quite welcome. Much of my anger is proportionate to “time lost” trying to cope that I missed time with my children. I was obliterated. I am triggered by passive aggressive behavior as was the main assault. For instance, at my work there is physical violence. If I’m struck it’s not emotional for me more than a mosquito. (Of course I don’t like it if it happens, and only has once from a person trying to run and they smacked me in the face on the way out) Take a woman who has been beaten over & over. I’ve seen it—a physician was assaulted and she had been physically abused by an ex. I was caring for her and she was decimated emotionally. She was humiliated by how upset she was. My own physician had to leave her home country to get away from her former spouse due to physical violence and threats. We are all left with different consequences.

          3. deniseisdone says:

            I understand and I am so sorry! I wish nothing but the absolute best for you. Goodness where do you work where there is physical violence?? You’re a brave female. I work in the medical field – I’m a biller/coder for surgeries which I love. That is truly horrible about your physician or anyone who is forced to flee but yes we all have our burdens to carry. I just know on that support group site there are women who endure that and I feel for them!! Some are so beaten down and do not know which way is up much less how to heal!!! HG could take them there, this I’m positive of, if only they could get that first step taken!!!!
            I’ll keep posting information and pray just 1 person runs with it!

          4. Lorelei says:

            I work in a larger city (by population) urban trauma center. I’m in training to be HG’s body guard.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Position is already taken.

          6. deniseisdone says:

            No way!!!!! A trauma center…interesting and I’m sure sad!!

          7. Lorelei says:

            Trauma center really only denotes a service line. I would rather work at Macy’s at the perfume counter.

          8. Lorelei says:

            Denise—also. Lundy Bancroft wrote a book detailing various character traits of abusers. It’s considered mainstream reading and recommended by DV professionals. He’s a smart guy but if you look at it his work is incredibly rudimentary compared to HG’s. I can actually inject a citation of his into an academic paper and it’s viewed as maybe more status quo but HG’s behavioral work is far more sublime. I was very cautious to be generic in my recent piece on developing screening tools for abuse so I only had to cite journal pieces. Plus, that is comfortably far from really needing to cite away from journal material. I would like to see this become mainstream though.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for the compliment.

          10. Lorelei says:

            You are welcome.

          11. deniseisdone says:

            Is it on Amazon??

          12. Lorelei says:

            The Bancroft book is—all of HG’s are. Bancroft’s book is useless though once you read HG’s work.

          13. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you

          14. Lorelei says:

            You are welcome. He (Bancroft) really is a super insightful man, highly regarded. It’s just that there are so many people missing the true thrust behind the issue. He would be an excellent one for you to ever speak to—I think he would absolutely look at your work if he hasn’t already. He has balanced his work into both the “feel good” and academic platforms.. I know little beyond that because I found your material. Hopefully he’s not a mid-ranger!! They all seem to be.

          15. deniseisdone says:

            I’ve read some of HG’s though I admit I LOVE his videos better!! Thank you!

          16. Lorelei says:

            Hi Denise—I rarely YouTube anything. I’m much more a reader and tend to speed read more effectively so have only listened to a smidgeon of HG’s videos. Even watching films is difficult for me as I get older—my minds twirls & dances and my attention is rarely captivated!

          17. deniseisdone says:

            Hello Lorelei! I like to read also but during work I have HG in my ears. I learn new things daily from him or see things in a different, maybe better, way.

          18. Lorelei says:

            I understand. I just tend to be a reader and flop around from item to item. I wish I were more “relaxed” but my mind is often whirling. I just walked laps to keep busy because being still is not always kind.

          19. Mercy says:

            Hahaha Lorelei, that cracked me up!

          20. Lorelei says:

            The Macy’s job? It would beat the pants off the work I signed up for most recently! I’ll spray perfume happily.

          21. Mercy says:

            “I’m in training to be HGs body guard”.

            Sorry, my comment didn’t land In right place.

          22. Lorelei says:

            Ah—it’s not a good proposal. I bitch lifting weights because they are heavy! Headed to do it now. Unhappily.

          23. Desirée says:

            is that the incontinent Shi Tzu you talked about the other day?

          24. Lorelei says:

            Yes. I think it’s time for a new photo. He makes me crazy.

          25. Lorelei says:

            Desiree—I just totally pulled off the largest Chanel purse heist in history! And no one can do a thing about it! US customs has nothing on me!

          26. Alexissmith2016 says:

            Ah Lorelei, you’re not alone! I have zero concentration too. I much prefer reading to listening. Although I do find myself just relaxing to HG’s voice. Im cautious though, just in case he ever does something scary at the end. Rather like those video clips where you concentrate on something like a car driving down a country lane hen all of a sudden a scary clown roars at the screen.

          27. HG Tudor says:

            That will not happen.

          28. Lorelei says:

            Funny Alexis! It’s like at the end of dinner HG may just bite the head off a rat. He was nearly eating cockroaches the other day on IG. I was trying to eat and opened IG up and was sick until realizing it was a crustacean feast. Goodness it was a gross photo.

          29. HG Tudor says:

            They were lobsters so I was nowhere near ‘nearly eating cockroaches’

          30. Lorelei says:

            The immediate visual took me a minute! Ugh.

          31. HG Tudor says:

            Have a crab stick to calm yourself!

          32. singasongy says:

            its shrimp that is the cockroaches of the sea….

          33. Violetta says:

            I listened to “How the Mid-Ranger Projects” last night while I was tidying up some of the Christmas clutter. I remember thinking, “Oh, thank GOD” several times, because not only my teachers but at least one boss in a post-college McJob had that routine of distorting reality RIGHT AFTER something had happened, so there was no possiblity of time making a memory fade. They’d pull the “everybody says” routine, and I’d hear later that no such conversation had ever occurred. At the time I thought maybe my classmates/co-workers didn’t want to say things to my face, but considering how they contemptuously talked about the teachers/manager in my presence, they didn’t seem worried that I would snitch on them. Maybe they thought I wouldn’t be taken seriously, or maybe they trusted me–who knows? One temporary assistant manager actually spent 15 minutes showing the manager documents with her signature on them before she could get her to acknowledge she HAD been involved with the incident in question. I wondered how she had either the courage or the patience. (There’s a story about an electrical fire where I stopped that pinhead from throwing water on it–something I’ll regret to my dying day–but it’s too long for this post.)

            What’s clear now is when they said (as they always did), “Are you calling me a liar?” they were not lying. They were completely sincere in their delusions.

          34. HG Tudor says:

            You’ve got it. You

          35. Lorelei says:

            Violetta—the fact that they are sincere in their delusions has been pivotal for me. Truly. We have a new girl being bullied at work and (again) last night I told the main instigator that the girl was not to be bothered and that I would be overseeing making certain she was left alone. (Long story) The instigator is consciously unaware she is doing it as she switches into deflection or whatever she does. The instigator insists it is a misperception. It doesn’t matter, I could talk until I’m blue in the face. Bottom line—no need in wasting my breath. The new girl will be ok—the instigator needs to fuel up elsewhere because I am so tired of the mid range shenanigans. I’d rather work with a lesser who explodes and throws things.

          36. HG Tudor says:

            Well done

          37. Lorelei says:

            It was well done and then I helped the mid ranger pick fuschia heels to accompany a black outfit I chose for her next seduction. She doesn’t know she is seducing but I do!

          38. Violetta says:

            And that is why my fantasy of confronting my old teachers and telling them the damage their incompetence did, not just to me but to supposedly normal kids who weren’t “that hyper girl,” would make no difference at all. They’d refuse to believe about the other kids, believe but blame me, and/or blame my mother for handling the family situation wrong, and at that last point, being very much my father’s daughter, I’d have to beat them to a bloody pulp, which they would gladly submit to (though not consciously) because it would prove I’m the crazy one.

      2. singasongy says:

        they are victims of abuse and are on websites looking for answers and we are as well, yet we are looking and following your advice after looking for answers elsewhere.

        In terms of victims, does that make us in the end more logical and them more ET? Do you think they don’t want to change their circumstances just cry about them? Does this make “us” more of a challenge to a greater because we are more logically inclined or is it too much energy?

        I went to all those websites first. It took me a matter of days to realize it was all a bunch of “feel better about yourself” kind of stuff and that isn’t what I was looking for. I am a person that wants logical feedback that I can put into use and accomplish my goal in all aspects of my life. This is no different. HG provides me with solutions that I have the choice to utilize. I’ve been reading several of his books and have felt this much of the information is indeed what I see on a daily basis . I’m put into use a couple of his solutions and they have worked! These other people offered no solutions, just more emotional feedback. I don’t want to feel better about myself I just want to know how to deal with a tough situation that is very confusing and draining and PRIVATE.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          1. As stated SAS, there are narcissists in amongst the victims.

          2. By coming here and reading, applying and wanting to learn, it demonstrates that your ET is lower than those victims who are dismissive about the work. In the same way that people have different metabolic rates and have different weights, people come here with different levels of ET and differing rates of ET attrition. Accordingly, by the time some people arrive here, their ET has lowered so they are able to accept the work without being “put off” by what I am or some do not like me (I have no issue with that) but recognise the value in my work and adopt the sensible approach of applying it. The medicine often tastes unpleasant , but boy, is it effective.

          3. The individuals who appear to not want to change their circumstances are either
          a. Narcissists who do not know what they are and are Mid Range cry babies bleating on and won about their circumstances where they think they are the victim, whereas in reality they are the narcissist who is struggling to assert control over the primary protagonist so they seek to assert control by garnering fuel and control elsewhere (all done unconsciously) or
          b. Victims who have such high ET they remain fixated on their experience rather than doing anything about it because they are governed by their ET.

          4. I do not see that the status of an individual with regard to how they present here in respect of ET is relevant with regards to them being more of a challenge to a Greater because no ensnarement with a Greater will happen here.If you mean in general terms is someone with lower ET and higher LT more of a challenge, the answer is, yes.

          5. I agree with your observations in your final paragraph. There is too much misinformation, missing information and incorrect focus elsewhere. That is why if people want to know and beat the narcissist they need my work.

          1. singasongy says:

            thank you for your feedback. Yes, I was not talking about an ensnarement here. Not that it isn’t possible, but you are in control and that would ruin what you have designed here. Logically that wouldn’t make sense so I don’t worry about it.
            I was wondering in general terms if people that use your practical approaches have always had more LT then ET and in turn attract more greaters because they are a challenge. Perhaps, this is why they are here now, they attracted a greater because of their logic and then that logic got snuffed out by constantly being beat down. But its always there, not gone, and when they’ve had enough they go back to their old friend, Logic?

            I just don’t identify with a sniveling baby. That is a façade’s that I would never use because I despise those people. Internally I’m an anxious worrier that thinks no one likes me. It would take an expert to know that. I know this because on a daily basis someone in this world will tell me they wish they were like me (so confident, so talented, attractive, smart, whatever the situation is) and I get so resentful internally because they can’t see the real me even if that isn’t what I want them to see. I am scared! I’m anxious! I am ugly and fat, I have no talent. Please realize that! But they don’t. I want comfort! I want pity for how fucked up I am. I suppose a greater can see it and maybe that is why I like them so much. they “get” me. BOOM I think I just had a freaking break through! HOLY CRAP.

            Basically until I don’t need anyone to “get” me, I am fucked.

            Damn, HG is WAYYYY better than any shrink I’ve ever talked to. IN fact, no freaking comparison! And I feel like such a bad person being so honest on here. I am typing stuff that I would never admit to anyone. not even my shrinks from the past.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            1. You opening sentences are accurate. I am pleased to see you apply logic in this manner.
            2. Most people who use my work have not been involved with Greaters as they are so very rare.
            3. Thank you for the compliment and do continue to articulate your thoughts and feelings appertaining to narcissism and your experiences as that is part of the reason this place has been created and why it is the world’s best resource.

          3. Asp Emp says:

            HG, another really good comment.

        2. Kristin says:


          “I don’t want to feel better about myself I just want to know how to deal with a tough situation that is very confusing and draining and PRIVATE.” Amen to that! You put into words exactly how I feel and thank God for HG and this site.

          1. singasongy says:

            Kristin, yeah, exactly. I have been trying to build up confidence and all that my whole freaking life. These sites all try to get you to self improve. Well, for shit sake don’ you think I haven’t been aware of how messed up I am and tried to fix it? I mean Ill turn 45 in two days. I’m pretty aware of all my flaws. HG doesn’t give a rat’s ass about me feeling better. He only wants to be the utmost best authority on this subject. Therefore he is telling it as it is, this rawness cuts right down to the logic aspect. He knows this is the only objective truth and anything else will instigate our ET even more. That won’t make us better, and that will lower his success rates. It is so simple that there is no way our crazy overthinking minds can misconstrue his advice. That’s why I trust it.

          2. Kristin says:

            You are absolutely correct. Because we are empaths and emotional thinkers HG HAS to be blunt and forthright or we would overthink the hell out of it all. He does not care for a single one of us but can you imagine if he did, there would be 1000’s of empaths swooning over him. That is exactly why he is the absolute best around and to not see what a gift he is is a shame. Have I been shocked at the things he as admitted to, of course, but he knows narcs and he knows us better than we do so it is a win win situtation. I am sure I am not alone in saying this but I fear something happening to HG which would result us being in a padded cell.

            Your honesty is refreshing and at confirms what I/we? feel. Keep trusting SAS and keep venting until you feel better. It never gets old and it helps others too. xxxx

          3. Notme! says:

            I truly appreciated your honest and open post. I was awed a bit, in fact at your self awareness and understanding.
            Maybe it does mean that the people who end up here and absorb what is shared have more LT. However, I arrived here with zero, zip, nada in terms of LT. I had just given serious thought to ending my life and the conflict I had was only that I didn’t want to hurt my son – that was all. I’m an intelligent person and gulp…have been a therapist for over 25 years but was broken.
            I think to some degree, posts like yours are also why this place is so effective. I learn an enormous amount from HG but just as much from posts like yours and those of Alexis, NA, MB, Lorelei, AnneB, Cyn, FM1T, SP, WAF, K, Lisk, Bubbles, Violetta, Renarde, Spangly Stars, Kristin, DID etc. etc.

          4. singasongy says:

            wow, Notme, thank you so much for your reply to me. It made me feel really good about myself because it is one thing I do pride myself on….self awareness. It is like I have two separate brains. I am generally aware and objective about the “big picture” and the way people are and their motives and manipulations. Generally I can read a person in a few minutes. Anyone that knows me will say my first impression of people is ALWAYS right. In fact, I have “helped” so many friends deal with tough situations and bad relationships both romantic and platonic. I REALLY know the right way. I can be brutally honest with them in such a good way. Just like HG can be for us.

            The problem for me, is that I can NOT seem to put this into practical use in myself. I know all the right things. I know that I’m internally beating myself and all that crap. But when I get hurt by someone or I perceive them to hurt me, all that logic flies out the window. I mean its just gone. poof! And then I REALLY suffer because I am literally fighting myself in my head. “shelby, see, they didn’t ask you to go to lunch with them? They hate you. They don’t want to be around you. Shelby, come on, you weren’t even there when they made plans, they would have asked you if you were there.” See what I mean? I just can’t do it. I can’t apply it to myself. Oh and when I fail and succumb to the self hatred I then get angry at myself for being weak. It never ends. But you guys all know that. Its so comforting to know I’m not alone.

            But currently this guy I’m dealing with is like crack cocaine. He isn’t anything like I’ve ever met before and honestly I got sucked into him without seeing the flags right away, which is something I usually see immediately. This morning he called me all nice nice (PF), within two minutes we were fighting and I hung up on him (NF). I went to training, he smoozes me. I am mad he is smirking. (NF) I am thinking come on shelby, use your logic and try to be under control because I can physically feel my stomach clenching in rage.
            He gets my dog and runs it. It does the best job of any dogs (PF). This makes LB swell with pride because my dog is a breed that generally isn’t that successful in this sport and he has been able to really get the best out of the dog where no other trainer has been able to. LB thinks he is God now. He walks off the line towards me and immediately starts caressing my foot that is perched up on a chair and saying did you see what I did with your dog. Did you see how I worked him? I mean I thought he might have had a hard on while he is rubbing on my foot and talking about how wonderful he is….Of course now I have to give him lots and lots of fuel… you’re so great, thank you so much for doing so well with him, blah blah blah. this makes the rest of the day go smoothly. He leaves early and is all over me like white on rice saying good bye (PF). He calls me several times throughout the rest of the evening telling me sweet nothings (PF). Tomorrow will be a repeat I’m sure.

            Ugh, man, I get so carried away typing all this out. It is like a journal and I am seeing new insights about the day just talking about it. I can’t really tell anyone else I’ve been holding onto this situation alone for a year now. No one can ever know so dealing with all of it alone is what has been killing me.

            As far as your LT…You say you didn’t have any when you got here. I wonder if it is not that you didn’t have a good grasp on LT but you had gone down the rabbit hole to the point that you couldn’t see the light any longer. All logic was squeezed out of you and your ET had just overcome you. I know that I’ve been near death several times and its like you are locked in your head and spiraling around and around almost comforted by your own misery. Like it literally feels good to want to die at that point of such grief. I, too, have children, and the fear that they would suffer a life time because their mom killed herself kept me from doing it. And furthermore, I worked really freaking hard to create children that aren’t like me. That’s part of the reason I married my normal husband so that he would pass on the normal genes. If I killed myself, I’d negate all that work because my kids would be screwed up.

            I agree with you, this place is really cool. I didn’t have to look hard before I found it and knew it was the right place for me. Everyone is insightful but also objective and that is what makes it work. I look forward to getting to know the rest of you guys too!

          5. FoolMe1Time says:

            We learn from you also.

      3. Violetta says:

        I frequently refer readers on DM, yahoo news, etc. to this cite, when there’s a piece on Trump the Clinton’s,, certain Royals, multiple people on the performing arts, and the occasional criminal. (The Indonesian guy in Manchester is classic: one commenter even noticed that he could have found many willing hookups, so his date-rape-drug routine was entirely about power, not lust.)

        There are significantly more green/up-arrows than red/down-arrows. Some people will follow up and come back to post that what they read here creeped them out, but it does explain how the subject of the article thinks and acts.

        Narcissism doesn’t exist in a vacuum. Clinical descriptions simply do not capture the dynamics the way your manipulative dialogues or monologues of what the narc is really thinking during certain actions.

        Parables are meant to make people see a supposedly familiar situation or principle in a different light or from a different perspective. Not to question your assumption that since there isn’t a God, there can’t be a Devil, or possibly, that there’s only one Devil and that’s you, but remember Who liked to use parables?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Thank you for referring to this site, that is important and is appreciated.

        2. Violetta says:

          Erg, chock full of bad punct and inappropriate autocorrect. I shouldn’t post without sufficient caffeine.

      4. Asp Emp says:

        Golden nugget comment, HG 🙂

    2. NarcAngel says:

      My advice would be to just keep doing what you are doing in advocating HG’s work. Leave the information and then don’t return to read if the comments following upset you. For all of the rude and resistant people, there will be those who will have their interest piqued or have an open enough mind to come to see for themselves. Those are the people who are actually looking for help and will most likely have success. Then they tell two people, and those people tell two people…and the weaponized army grows. You are helping people even though it may seem futile at times. It is not. Thank you for helping others.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Well stated.

      2. deniseisdone says:

        Excellent idea NA as I do go back to read the comments! That I will stop. Thank you so very much!! HUGS!!!

      3. wildviolet22 says:

        I think certain forums tend to have a lot of lurkers, who are desperate for help, and read but don’t comment. The dismissive/ rejecting/ know-it-all but haven’t read or properly assessed the information -type people, are just trying to get under the skin of the person providing information, for whatever reason.

        But I like your method, and find myself doing something similar. Leave the info for those who may be lurking, and/ or are open to the help being provided, and don’t give the screeching or passive aggressive/ dismissive types one iota of attention, not even in your own mind by being irritated by them.

        1. HG Tudor says:


          There are many, many people who read and do not comment. In fact, the proportion of people who come here and comment is very small indeed compared as against those who read here.

    3. ANM says:

      This is very common in narcissist online groups. Members in a group tend to create a cult like psychology amongst members ESPECIALLY if it is based on victimization. I have limited my exposure to narcissism material and groups to just this page, and another one that deals with child custody issues and narcissism. And I was very picky, because I do not want to create a victim mentality. One incident that taught me this lesson was, a few years ago, I was looking for a group for people who coparent with narcissist, and found one that was really popular. I asked the group, ‘How are you able to prove abuse in custody court proceedings?’ People were furious!! They called me the narcissist. One lady wrote,
      ‘how dare you? So you are claiming that you had a relationship, had a child with this person, and now you are claiming he is an abuser? You are the narcissist! I hope the father takes your child away, you spiteful, entitled woman!!’

      The group leader then blocked me. Come to find out, many of these people were in situations were they were falsely accused of abuse, and don’t believe that abuse is really common, but false accusation are the norm. I get that, but that’s not my experience.
      So be careful for the victim mentality out there.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Valid observations ANM.

        One of the many advantages that this site has is that I am upfront about what I am and the narcissists that appear here are rooted out.

        1. ANM says:

          Your group is the best one, with the most intriguing discussions, and accurate/engaging reading material. Thank you for all you do!

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I agree and you are welcome.

      2. deniseisdone says:

        Yes ma’am I thought the same thing – didn’t quite know what it was called but you are so correct!! Yes I think it’s time to leave that group as support just doesn’t seem to be given – just a lot bullying. Thank you for sharing with me as it is greatly appreciated!!!

    4. Kristin says:

      Who better to teach us than the king of narcs!! It is their loss but if one person comes to this site because of you, then all your hard work is worth it. They have to be ready to get help and move forward and that is only something they can decide on. I say keep spreading the word!

      1. deniseisdone says:

        Kristin isn’t that the truth – they would come to trust him – he may be a narc and done bad things but that’s between him and God – he’s never done anything to harm me and I’m not judging him one bit – I just wish others could take that same frame of thought. Some ppl on that site deeply sadden me and their help is but a click away. I don’t understand! I’m jumped in head first – therapy and all – I just wanted the pain to stop – why don’t they?
        Yes I’ll keep spreading the word because I believe in him; however, the meanness regarding my post from several was shocking so I came here for advice and got some excellent guidance – next time I’m ready for them! 😜
        Thank you for your response and have a wonderful evening! HUGS!

    5. FoolMe1Time says:

      You can lead a horse to water and all that Denise is done. The only thing you can do is continue to put it out there. Tudorites do not give up! 🙃

      1. deniseisdone says:

        Hello FM1T! Oh I will continue because I know where their help is and I’m not a quitter! 😁

        1. FoolMe1Time says:

          Good for you dd. Even if you just plant the seed hopefully when wherever they are is not working, they will remember where the real help is. 🥰

          1. deniseisdone says:

            FM1T thank you! We can pray some will reach out.

    6. Mercy says:

      Did, I love this post and that you want to help them by directing them to HG! I know before I found this site I searched and searched for answers. I was able to figure out that I was dealing with a narcissist but thats as far as I could get. I remember trying to find the right combination of words to type into Google to get the insight I needed to move on. Testimonial after testimonial but no answers. It was a post from someone like you that directed me here. I was a reader only back then. I don’t know who posted it, and that person doesn’t know how much they helped me. Think about that every time you mention HGs name and get rejected. There may be someone desperate for answers and you’ve given them the right combination of words to type into Google.

      1. deniseisdone says:

        Mercy thank you. If we can get just one person here that’s one more person who will be on their journey to healing.
        I clearly remember trying to Google what had just happened to me – I didn’t even know what a narcissist was so I lost and confused (🤦‍♀️). I’ve said this before and it’s the honest truth when I figured out to go to YT and out of all those thousands of videos I click on HG Tudor – God led me directly to him without a doubt and I’m beyond thankful!! My journey to healing began, my pain slowly faded and knowledge was gained. If just one person can get here to receive the same things as I have then that’s just one less broken soul. You have a wonderful day and thank you!! HUGS!

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