The Narcissist and Money


Money is one of the most obvious ways in which one can demonstrate one’s power. Money provides options, it reveals opportunities and provides chances where none might have existed previously. Money equates to power and power equates to money. We have a healthy attitude to the question of money. What we create is ours. Yours is ours also. I have written previously how the successful of our kind exhibit our success and our power through the accumulation of money. It may be the creation of a successful business, the climbing of the corporate ladder into well-paid positions of responsibility and it might be the production of items and services that others require. There are of course those of our kind who have not grasped the concept that there is an unique opportunity afforded by the way that we are to be successful and in turn earn substantial amounts of money. Those of our kin who have not harnessed our special attributes in that manner are quite frankly a disappointment and they shall forever remain lesser narcs. Yes they are narcs but quite frankly they are not in my league or that of my high-achieving counterparts. I must admit to having nothing but contempt for those our kind who have failed to apply our abilities in this manner. They are letting the side down. That, however, is a topic for another day. What our less able kind and those of us who have embraced success do have in common is the unfailing ability to drain you of your financial health.

How does this manifest? Perhaps some of the following will be familiar to you?

  • Never paying for drinks and meals when out together
  • Never contributing to joint expenses and then spending a small fortune on something for ourselves
  • Borrowing money repeatedly with a convincing tale of woe attached. The money is never re-paid.
  • Taking out loans in your name which you only find about some time later when they are in default
  • Learning the house has been mortgaged to the hilt and the advanced funds have been frittered away
  • Expensive addictions to drink, drugs, prostitutes and/or gambling which we expect you to bail us out of
  • Straight forward theft
  • Failing to honour maintenance and child support arrangements
  • Selling your possessions
Why does this happen? Sometimes it is about instant gratification. We want something
and we want it immediately. We have always been used to getting our own way so why
should it be any different when it comes to the question of money? We do not recognise
any boundary that says we should not have your money. It is in play and up for grabs.
We want something and you can pay for it. This of course reinforces our control over
you by seizing your finances and goods we have you beholden to what we want to do.
We show that we are in control and of course we anticipate horror, howls or protest and
anger when you learn of our activity. All of which is good fuel. There is also an element
of retribution. We may have been denied something and this in turn offends our sense of
entitlement. We feel criticised and we want to get rid of that sensation. One method is to
assert our power by taking what belongs to you and using it to our benefit. Sometimes
we do this an expend your financial resource in a totally excessive fashion which just
wastes the money. To us however there is no waste in such a step. It underlines our
importance, it affirms our power and it keeps you under out control.
The scale by which our kind engages in this sequestration of the money and assets of
others can vary hugely in scale, even when perpetrated by the same person. In that vein
I am reminded of the late Robert Maxwell. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the
name, Maxwell was a Czech born media mogul who operated a publishing empire in the
United Kingdom. He fell off his yacht in 1991 and drowned. There is little doubt that he
was one of our kind – plenty has been written about the man and his behaviours which
confirms that. Maxwell plundered the company pension scheme stealing hundreds of
millions of pounds from the pensions of the employees leaving thousands of people in
financial difficulty. There was the misappropriation of the money of others on a massive
scale. Maxwell was also found on Christmas morning by his wife and children
surrounded by torn wrapping paper. He had wanted to know what had been bought for
the children. Rather than ask his wife, he went ahead and opened all the wrapped gifts.
He did not take the gifts but he certainly trampled over a boundary and appropriated the
surprise that was meant for his children. Nobody is beyond our sense of entitlement
when it comes to money or assets.

90 thoughts on “The Narcissist and Money

  1. Akshay Iyer says:

    I loved reading the post. As well as the comments from people, it’s quite descriptive and engaging

  2. Whitney says:

    HG all my narcs were all generous with money: the LMR, UMR Elite, and UMR Somatic.

    I think the UMR Somatic is a greater. He is calculated and aware. He is not impulsive whatsoever. He plans his manipulations. He’s told me many times that he’s a narcissist specifically, and also that he needs control, cares only about power, does things for a reaction, has no empathy etc. He is aware of his reasons for anything he does.

    A big contrast from the deluded Midrangers who think they are empaths.

    He is by far more charming than the UMR Elite and the many others I’ve known.

    He went to a selective school as a child where less than 0.01% of children are admitted, through an aptitude (IQ) test. He is genuinely very intelligent.

    Even you’ve confided with some people in your personal life that you’re a narcissist HG. The UMR Somatic said he’s told me things he hasn’t told anyone else. There is no detriment in telling me HG. I’m very accepting of whatever he says. I don’t bat an eyelid. He is getting my opinion and reaction about himself.

  3. lisk says:

    Just today I received a check in the mail from Narcx. I have not heard from him in months. The check was for $32. It was a refund check written out to both of us for some small overpayment of something last year. He signed it and sent it to me.

    He spent $8 to send me a $32 check. I don’t understand–he could have tossed the check in the trash. I would have never known about it.

    I guess he had to do the “right” thing.

    What a stupid hoover.

  4. wildviolet22 says:

    Mine lives in poverty, from pay check to pay check, and doesn’t last long at his jobs because he burns bridges, much like he does with his other relationships. At first I thought he might be a lower mid ranger, but after reading more, I think he’s actually either a LLN or MLN. But in a starving artist, “I’m so cute and have such a wide range of topics I can talk about, you’d swear I was gay” kind of way. Then as soon as everything seems to be going fine, the push-pull / devaluing behaviors start. Then eventually you realize you have a run of the mill, abusive a**hole on your hands.

    I never got involved in his financial stuff, but some of the comments that he made made me wonder if other women, or family members, did. I’d also be curious to know if there’s a history of domestic violence, and how far he’s taken things before (the states he’s lived in don’t have that as public info, and I bowed at early signs of this). But at first glance, I wouldn’t have pegged him for a lesser. He puts up a good artsy, cute, poor-me and my hard luck kind of a front. He also at times can be outright grandiose (some celebrities come to mind), and it’s bizarre, because there’s nothing tangible to back it up, like with actual celebrities and their money.

    1. Violetta says:

      The other Violet(!):

      They were times in my life I’ve specialized in starving artists, sporadically-employed actors, struggling film majors, and street musicians, because I thought they couldn’t get as pompous and controlling as Hedge Fund Managers.

      I was wrong.

      1. wildviolet22 says:

        I hear you, Violetta. No perks to these types, either (or whatever perks seem to be there in the beginning, is just an illusion). At the end of the day, once the devaluation starts, they can be brutal d**kheads too :/.

      2. lisk says:

        Film majors are the absolute worst. And then, when they get jobs in the industry, UGH…unbearable.

  5. Susan says:


    Thanks for sharing the like to that incredibly insightful article by HG. It was posted long before I found this site and I probably would never have seen it.

    1. FYC says:

      My pleasure, Susan. I encourage you to delve into the archives. There are so many good posts that you will not want to miss.

  6. Gab says:

    My ex is mid range narcissist, he is inteligent and always go for high status jobs but still he is a 1st class gold digger who doesn’t want to pay for anything. When I first met him he was in between jobs, and he told me right away he doesnt have money – hes got divorxed, his wife took everything, he has debts and has to pay for their child so he is broken. He was training me to pay for him from the first date. In the beginning it was sharing the bill (he buys tickets, I buy drinks) and in the end i was paying for everything. I felt like a sugar daddy who pays a girl to f…ck him, the difference was that it was me who was 15 years younger than him.

  7. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    Our dear ol friend is going ballistic not having any control over his money and talks non stop about it
    He no longer receives the attention he craves, so he’s now making up scenarios to reflect on him
    There’s an angry old lady who yells out loud and is always name calling … our dear ol friend thinks it’s about him, it’s not, she’s generalising
    He’s verbally attacking her
    It’s like watching grown up kindy kids fighting!
    He wants control, but no longer has it …. it’s destroying him !
    Sad to watch
    What’s that good ol saying …. “money is the root of all evil”
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  8. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    Just heard there there was a big yellow Bank of Bubbles dispenser “hole in the wall” machine erected in Gracechurch St London to coincide with the end of Brexit, giving away free prosecco to drown one’s sorrows at the prospect of ending cheap imports from the continent …..apparently the machine is only temporary 🙁
    Now that’s my kind of bank ! 🍾🥂
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  9. Tired says:

    Control! My narc controls all the money. Never bothered me until a few years ago when he demonstrated that he cannot be trusted.
    I’ve been so blind.

  10. Cathy says:

    i have been in a relationship for 21 years with him. he bought a house very recently we had been renting previously. the house is in his name, and he charges me weekly rent. I also have to pay for all the food. previously when renting we would go half. He told me the money I pay him each week in rent is the interest he is losing on the large downpayment he put down. i cook, clean, meals each day, he never ever takes me out for a meal if we do go out i have to take my car so as not to use his petrol. and i am expected to pay for the meals outside because he bought a house, his house on his name, I pay him rent. I asked him, when does the rent finish to you, when I am on my death bed, he said no in 20 years time you can stop payment me the rent. I would haven paid him hundreds of thousands by that time to him for his house. in 21 years i have asked to use his mobile three times and each time it has been me with a barage of insults for so long about using his phone, how I am a retard etc, and using his money, i asked those three times to use his phone to make a restaurant reservation for us both for a meal I was paying for, I had accidently left my phone at work that weekend. in the house he has bought he rents to me the downstairs part, as we cant share a room in case i accidently touch him during the night he will shove me and tell me I disturbing him so we have always had seperate rooms. yesterday, he came into my room downstairs and said I have left a few marks on the sliding door, there are no marks, albeit one tiny hair size scuff mark that could have been there before, he threatened to remove the door, making me very vulberanble to anybody outside who could see as I am damaging his house he says. He points out my footprints on the floor, my fingermarks on the fridge (non existent), the way I close a door. He says he is upstairs area is immaculate compared to mine, (I am very clean and immaculate I have learnt to do things his way), yesterday he said I was worse than a feral teenager. i will add feral to the list of names he has called me over the years. when i very first met him 21 years ago I was working for a huge company in london, he started work there, we got involved and he told me he wanted to take me around the world, it would take six weeks, I could not get time off work so he coherst me to leave. I left work, he took me around the world, paying for the tickets, hotels, gave me an ATM card (I had no job) and then when we returned he gave me a 10,000 pound bill and said you owe me 10000 did you think the holiday was free? I had no job, and for the first time in my life had to go on the dole (as we say in the UK), so I got 55 pounds per week and I had just bought a house and had a mortgage. I had no indication whatseover he was charging me for the holiday, and yes, had I known I would paid my way but he made it out as if he was treating me, honestly that is true.
    I come from a wealthy family, thank heavens, my parents have a wonderful huge house owned previously by a very well known car racer in the UK… when he first saw my fathers house he said the carpets look like vomit. previously, if I borrowed 50 pence from him I would have to give it back.

    1. Waking up says:

      Hopefully you have left him.

  11. CandaceMarie says:

    My lesser was horrible with money. He never had any and I paid for everything. It shocked me that he thought this was ok. He had no issue with me paying his way. An example of how little he cared about my finances one thing comes to mind. One year I bought a whole case of juice boxes for my daughter’s school lunch. I made a point to tell him not to drink them.By the time the first day of school came all the juice boxes were gone. He didn’t care that he had drank every last one and I had to buy more. I was pissed.
    My dad who is a mid is great with money and has always invested it wisely. He is very generous with it as well. This is nice for me of course but it doesn’t make up for the years of pain he has caused. Last year he made me a promise which he then took away at the last minute. After months of excitement I was very disappointed and I let him know it. This was before I knew what he was. I imagine he got the hint that I was not happy with him because his actions lately have been extremely kind. I have very little contact with him. For a Christmas present he sent me a check for a good sum of money. He normally sends money as gifts but this one was over the top. I also got a check for the same amount for my birthday a few weeks ago. Not only that he had the whole family sing Happy birthday to me over the phone. This is unlike him as most years he forgets to call on my birthday. I guess he thinks I will fall for this manipulation but I know it’s just for show.

  12. Dorion says:

    The kinds of people you describe here HG, the ones who engage in the behaviors listed in this article, are some of those that I despise the most in life as well. Whether they are narcs that are not successful on their own or even healthy people living in poverty and never wanting to do anything about it. Some members of my extended family are like that and I have isolated from them and rejected them very early on. These are also often the forever whining ones with victim mentality, in my opinion. It reminds me a bit of my ex therapist again, the aspect of him demanding money for a “service” that did nothing to me except frustration, it was abundantly clear, and he responded to it by demanding increased fees. I told him to go to hell and try to fish there.

    I would never, under any circumstance, share my finances with anyone in personal life (e.g. bank accounts, credits cards) other than occasionally inviting each-other out in a balanced, reciprocal manner with good friends and intimate partners. I certainly would share the costs of childcare but have no kids, so that never came up. But even with those people (even domestic partners), I generally prefer splitting any bill equally, I also dislike and almost never accept anyone’s paying mine. I don’t see a reason for it and am not a fan of those old-fashioned courtesy systems where a man is expected to pay for a women, for example. Don’t even like gifts except inexpensive, symbolic ones. So yeah all that is on the frugal side but I also never ask money from anyone except for work I do. I would rather starve and/or be homeless than beg or manipulate non-professional connections to give me money. And it is not even too much from a sense of decency, more pride and because that type of financial maneuvers would feel degrading to my sense of self and autonomy. I personally even tolerate the idea of impulsive physical violence better than preying on people’s personal property and savings that way. Sadly, there are so many predators like that and, like often with narcs, they tend to take advantage of the most decent, unassuming, helpful people who allow it to go way too far. One of my best friends is an empath who used to be married to an obvious narc. The narc not only managed to manipulate him out of child custody yet demand more child support than necessary, but also alienated the two kids from him to a point that the kids cut his off. The father is, of course, with one of the most empathic and responsible people I have ever met. It is heartbreaking even just hearing their stories.

  13. Aurora says:

    Hey HG, I’m dropping by because I wanted to know your impressions on this. RIP Kobe Bryant, horrific tragedy. I was watching a few interviews of him and found myself feeling the kind of 10/10 attraction I had felt in my past with narcs I had known. What are your thoughts on him?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Aurora, I do not know enough about him to provide an accurate view. I know who he is and knew of him before his death, but I do not have sufficient information to provide an accurate analysis.

      1. Kimberly manning says:

        He was my neighbor up there he street years ago. I knew Vanessa a bit as we had our first girls together and strolled around. All I can add is he was a Family man and I saw first hand his love for his high school sweetheart. He would come to the store just to help with bags. He doted on them and put in the time, it appears he was Well liked by his teammates. He also spoke Italian and did boxing. He would arrive an hour early to his session drenched in sweat from having warmed up before even going to a session. A true athlete. I always thought. They have it all. Now … my heart breaks for them.

    2. Christopher Jackson says:

      Yea Aurora he is a greater narcissist if I had to guess…just a guess

  14. FYC says:

    Sounds like Maxwell was a cousin of the Grinch. HG, your intelligence, awareness and tremendous legacy will keep you from meeting such an inglorious ending. I recently read a quote by Albert Pike, “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.”

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you FYC.

      1. FYC says:

        My pleasure. Insight, understanding, wisdom and application changes everything. You effect all of these. “Et omnia praeclara rara,” and we are fortunate to be benefactors of the same.

  15. madamexdomina says:

    Hi HG, again an excellent article. True, not all narcissists are financially functional. My mom, for example, who is a covert, has not been able to accumulate liquidity as she would have liked. His attitude towards money was longing on the one hand but “moralistic” on the other, he would never have freely expressed his desire for wealth because he feared the judgment of others too much. This is not so for me. I am proud to be materialistic and I enjoy creating imaginative and always new initiatives to generate money.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  16. Sara says:

    Not sustaining a job in order to create financial difficulties was a strong feature with my ex. Expected me to work like a donkey to keep him sustained but made sure there was no funds for me to go out or do anything nice for myself. He’s had over 30 jobs in 3 years. Never seen a penny of his earnings in 4 years.

    1. WhoCares says:


      “Not sustaining a job in order to create financial difficulties was a strong feature with my ex.”

      I’m sorry you went through that Sara – mine did it too.
      He had legitimate “accidents” in the beginning so I didn’t see it as such and he had to change careers as a result…and then work conflicts…work stress…etc..
      I didn’t know it was manufactured stress as a fallout of his narcissism.

  17. HF says:

    that’s her I mean first three lines… it’s exactly my narc wife and the whole article is her biography. this is sick man I don’t know what to say…being clean and sober for 10 years I thought of myself as the toughest guy, because the whole league is there I mean in drug world… master manipulators, pathological liers, psychopaths…it’s literally the hell so surviving that I decided to get married. From the very first day I knew there is something wrong with her so to realize what I’m dealing with I started googling and six month ago I understand that she is a narc…and it was devastating but I decide this not gonna happen I’m not gonna be a victim so I let devil out- I think everybody has it what basically I’m doing is confusing her for example one day I make a big sh..ty fight with her the next day I approach her with love bombarding. I love her I hate her, I ridicule her then I complement her. I reserve restaurant then cancel it for no reason…and believe me it is working she has more respect for me now but I know this fight has no winner cuz I”m not like this. I won’t and can’t change her. I’m gonna do it until I can afford divorcing her and I know she will be devastated…this is sad…

    1. lisk says:

      HF, are you able to afford a consultation with HG? I would recommend one highly.

      Maybe you can get out sooner than you think!

      1. HF says:


        Even if I can afford it payment is almost impossible. Iran is under sanction.

        Thanks for recommendation.

        1. lisk says:

          And if angels were allowed to assist under sanction?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            The material would reach HF.

    2. Tired says:


      Addicts very often have the same behavior as narcs, how is it you didn’t recognise her behavior before you married?
      How is it she respects you now for treating her like shit ? What is her general attitude towards you now?
      I have thrown back a bit of my narcs behavior at him , but not to the extreme it seems you are with your wife.
      When I do it it’s more to get him to back off , not to make him cower or induce a rage. His rages give me an awful fright.
      I have endured decades with my narc. Is yours a long term marriage as well?
      I’ve stayed as long as I have for our five children. Are children the reason you’ve stayed as well? Mine have made it clear they want nothing to do with their father if we divorce, they’ve seen the hell hes put me through.
      Curious to see how a man deals with being married to a narc, the flip side .
      Also, you said she would be devastated by divorce, that’s not typical for a narc as far as I’ve read . Are you sure she is one ?

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Many addicts are narcissists.

        1. Tired says:

          Yes, which is why I questioned the poster. To me it’s sounds like he is more likely the narc than his wife. :/

      2. NarcAngel says:

        “I’ve stayed as long as I have for our five children”

        “Mine have made it clear that they want nothing to do with their father if we divorce. They’ve seen the hell hes put me through”

        It doesn’t sound like your staying benefitted them.

        1. Tired says:


          I would not leave him when they were younger because I was afraid of what he would expose them to during visitation. You’ve seen the horror stories, as have I. I know what my narc is like left “ unattended “ . It would have been detrimental to my children’s safety, and emotional well-being for him to be left alone with them for extended periods of time.
          I was able to be home with them full time. My narc didn’t participate much raising them, that used to bother me, now I’m happy that was the case.
          My children are also happy I was home with them. I know I made the right decision, it was done with their best interests at the forefront.
          My children have always come first, and my narc knows I would go to the ends of the earth to protect them.

          1. Susan says:

            Hi tired,
            I made the same decision for the same reason. His family members were not people I could trust. They were bold and domineering making decisions repeatedly that were not in her best interest. They wanted to raise her. They had a very strange attachment to children especially when they were small and could be easily controlled. I felt their obsession with small children was odd at the time. I did not understand at the time that they liked small children because they are dependent and met their needs for affection and attention. The long term plan was to keep them dependent so they would take care of them when they aged. My husbands mother attempted to keep him with her but she was unsuccessful. She tried if with the other children as well. When the kids were older and became more independent, not showing signs of being loyal, their interest in them waned and they could no longer control them for future use. Really sick. They constantly tried to lure my daughter to spend time with them. Their values were not healthy and I was petrified to leave her with them without me present. If my husband had visitation rights I knew I would have little control over how much time she spent with them and their influence over her. He was not a good influence on her but at least if I stayed I had some more control over the situation. I know that makes very little sense to some but I would not have been able to live with myself, if I had left and there had been a poor outcome for her. She is a bright, successful, happily married young woman who somehow developed into a “normal”. Even with me staying there could have been a poor outcome but at least I would have known I did everything I could to help shape her future

          2. Kimberly manning says:

            My ex was a sociopath and diagnosed by top State psychologist. I said to her… how can you give him 20% custody?! She said sociopaths can be good fathers, you will provide the stability the nourishment. All it takes is one. She is right! My children are happy and flourishing! Keep that in mind. Just one. And I did not criticize dad but kids know. I said your relationship is your own. I just want it to be the best. Just one. Yes… there will be um challenges. Hell yes. But just one.

        2. Tired says:


          Adding to my previous reply.
          It absolutely benefitted them. I was able to be there for them for everything, without much interference from my narc. He always knew my line in the sand was our children. Mess with them, all bets are off.
          I don’t like to sound like a “ martyr “ , but you could say I sacrificed a better life for myself to be sure my children would be safe. To me it was well worth the sacrifice. I’d do it again.
          May I ask , do you have children, NA ?

          1. NarcAngel says:

            No, I do not have children. It was my decision, and a great part of it had to do with being raised in an environment of narcissistic abuse. I both experienced it and witnessed the abuse of others, which included my mother. I can tell you that in my case I suffered more from the latter. People will often say that the abuse was not directed at the children, but it does not escape them. Witnessing the abuse (first hand, or even the after effect) of someone you love is underestimated and can be far reaching, even though it might appear otherwise. My narcissist step-father (SN) is dead now, but my mother’s decision not to remove him from our lives stayed with us and has affected both our relationships with her and with each other into adulthood.

            To be brutally honest, I think statements like: I did, or am doing it for the children are lies people tell themselves because it requires action that they are not willing, or able to take due to their own emotional thinking and addiction, and to relieve themselves of guilt. What child wants to watch a mother they love go through hell? What does that teach them about what to give or accept in their own relationships? Even feeling the guilt that one suffered it for them is detrimental (although most are under no such delusion).

            My intent in addressing this was not to anger you or make you feel guilt. If your children are grown I truly hope you have a better result than my family did. I did it because there may be people with young children involved with a narcissist that adopt the dangerous thinking that is is of benefit for the children for them to stay. I am speaking for those children who know otherwise, and for those who can not speak for themselves. I implore people in the situation with a narcissist and children to avail themselves of the information here and other resources available to remove yourselves and your children.

            These are the things that went through my mind when I read both “I did it for my children” and “they witnessed the hell that he put me through” in the same breath.

          2. Lorelei says:

            NA—excellent comment. It’s been a little horrifying to say the least to reflect on the damage to the children that is in contrast now, to in “clean up” mode. To be honest, it’s irrelevant what my ex’s part in being hurtful has been. Commenting on only him as culpable, scapegoating my addiction onto him is diminishing my role in the addictive interplay. I’m not stepping into martyrdom in this comment—but illustrating what I know my oldest daughter may be amenable to hearing vs. what she has eluded to as having no interest in hearing. She’s here with me now. How she turned into such a well-mannered and gracious young woman is beyond me because I was flat on my ass for a long time. Fortunately and apparently she was able to grasp observations that have aided her, however, it was not the result of intentional parenting on my part. I was very busy feeding a very strong addiction indeed. The fact that the addiction even craves poor behavior is a more recent revelation that is a bit of a wow to think about. The addiction relishes the up and down and the turmoil. It abolishes both intellectual and emotional empathy for the liberty of others—in your case your mother as unable to see the effects on you & your siblings. In my case—toward my children/family. The impact on my younger children has been perhaps substantially marginalized in my mind. Just because he wasn’t “awful” to them—they witnessed and lived in that mess. Why was my middle schooler acting up as she was last year? That was beyond normal shenanigans and thankfully she’s now thriving. Lots of luck but absolutely linked to my improved state. Has to be. The entire atmosphere is night and day. There is a huge correlation between her behavior and when the shift in energy occurred for me. I’m glad you advocate when you recognize these situations. I fail daily but hope the positive sum total exceeds the failures—I didn’t even have a chance in hell of parenting with any intent until more recently. It’s quite a challenge—it’s all on me. They are simply put in their rooms at their dad’s house. I’m thinking of limiting much of the “room time” in my own home. Now, with this all said I have informed them all that they are making me crazy in the last 24 hours, I’m not always pulling off what my intentions are. I was absolutely blind though as how ineffective and sick I was before. That is why I said “intellectual empathy” above—I’m not feeling it when I’m irritated or have frayed nerves, but know it needs demonstrated by acting better. The addiction (to function) has to have it that way. It’s like an alcoholic being in denial that they start to look like shit.

        3. Tired says:

          I completely understand what you’re saying.
          When I say my children witnessed him put me through hell it was after they were grown. During their childhood my narc appeared “ normal “ . He wasn’t absent but he may as well have been for lack of participation parenting. I’m grateful now he didn’t participate much. That said , there were things that made me want to leave him when they were younger ( infidelity) , but as I stated before it was better for them, not me , to stay.
          Trust me when I say if I thought they were being damaged in any way shape or form, I would have left.
          They are all grown now, and have families of their own. They all have wonderful jobs and the married ones, exceptional loving spouses. They do not show any signs of being affected by their father. They always excelled at school, in sport , and community service. They are all well adjusted.
          Everyone’s situation is different in varying degrees, mine wasn’t horrible when our children were young. However, I’ll reiterate, I would not have wanted him having visitation alone with them had I divorced him. I truly believe if that happened our children would not be the happy well adjusted adults they are today.
          I appreciate your valuable input, and I am sorry you had it so rough growing up.
          I was lucky, I had/have wonderful parents and a fairytale childhood. My upbringing has made it all the more difficult to come to terms with the behaviors of the man I married.
          It seems age has made him worse now. He’s upset about losing his hair and his changing body, as well as not being satisfied with his career. He feels he should have a more important position. If he had applied himself differently all these years he would have been much more successful.
          Narcissism has ruined him, but I am determined that it will not ruin me. I just need to be able to get to my breaking point to let go , I’m not quite there yet. Through the grace of God, and HG I hope to be there in the not too distant future.
          I am so much stronger than my narc . A weak woman would not have lasted as long as I have and remained sane.
          Wish you well. Xx

          1. FYC says:

            Hello Tired, You do not need to wait until you reach your breaking point, and dare not. A narcissist almost always knows your breaking point and will manage that point to manipulate you to his benefit. Choose for your own reasons and wellbeing, and for your happiness. It is never too late to make a change. You know you are unhappy. So schedule a consult with HG and buy the Narc detector. Both will prove invaluable. Develop a plan for leaving now, and prepare for its eventuality. Research divorce in your location and how to prepare. Be sure to clear your search history. Once you have considered HG’s advice and are prepared, start taking actions and make the big move when you will be safe to do so. Do this for you. You have probably forgotten you deserve joy and good health and happiness. But you do. So do not delay. If you would not advise your children to take narcissistic abuse and wait until their breaking point to leave (I am sure you would not), then do not assume this very poor advice for yourself. You deserve far better.

      3. HF says:

        Things that I’ve learned about myself in this six month is far greater than those of my whole life. I knew that I was too agreeable, incapable of saying NO, people appeaser, painfully honest… a “nice guy” if you will. I’m 48 now .I did drugs for 15 years. I understand now I was using drug because I wanted to numb myself because there is too much negative energy out there. I avoided people the whole time- except my co-users and dealers. I’m frightened of conflict. I still prefer to hang out with kids in family gatherings because I like their innocence. my therapist said you have social anxiety…anyway
        I think you can tell now why I didn’t recognize her behavior or better to say I overlooked them.
        I know the respect she is showing is not real but she is acknowledging my boundaries or maybe she wants my old version back which was all love, kindness and respect.
        She sees me just as a tool, a servant a money provider and no respect whatsoever. when her rage is over always she goes, ” I’m sorry baby but that was your fault, look how pretty I am you have to be grateful for having me”… lol that’s embarrassing…
        “Extreme” you have no idea of how much she is capable of taking cuz she seems having no heart or maybe she is standing high up there above others and feeling untouchable.
        Four years and no kid.
        I wasn’t seriously thinking of divorce until six month ago that I realized she is a narc and incurable. divorce is complicated here. half of my house is in her name but she can get all of it so I have to sort thins out , get a lawyer…what a fool ?? ha..?.
        but my main concern is her cuz divorce is such a taboo and stigma specially for a woman over here… I’m not being emotional. this is a fact a widow is vulnerable here.
        I”m not an expert but here is what she does and I’m gonna be as objective as possible: she is always bragging about her beauty and uniqueness and my sisters are ugly and fat.. lol My sister bought a car, she was mad for one week like a six year old screaming at me as if it is my fault. She forced me to leave my home city calming that your family do not respect me (total BS in fact it was other way around) she lies about everything to everyone and has no empathy at all finally she looks me in the eyes and tells me you have to pay or buy sth for me for sex….
        any way I’m not denying my pain but she is not a monster just little helpless baby
        what do YOU think Tired.

      4. HF says:

        In this six month I learned about myself much more than my wife;
        When i was 18 my therapist told me you have social anxiety and you have take pills but it wasn’t enough so I did drugs too to overcome my fear and feel good and I stayed away from people except my co- users and dealers.
        I knew I was agreeable, incapable of saying NO, people appeasing and painfully honest but now I understand I am over sensitive actually I like people but there is too much energy or information out there which is unbearable for me.In family gatherings I hang out with kids cuz I like their innocence.
        I think this pretty much explains why I didn’t recognize her behavior or maybe I overlooked them.
        For her I am a money provider a servant. She has no respect for me whatsoever. I know this isn’t real respect, maybe she is acknowledging my boundaries.
        “Extreme”? you have no Idea what she is capable of taking.
        been married for 4 years now with no kid.
        I have to stay for one or two year until I can get my share of patrimony. half is on her name.
        I’m not an expert but here is what she does and I try to be as objective as possible;
        1- Always bragging about her beauty and uniqueness and my sisters are ugly and
        2-My sister bought a car and she got mad,for one week screaming at me as if it is my fault
        3-I have to report her about every thing but she got a loan on me and without telling me had an expensive cheek implantation..
        4- she looks me in the eye and says you have to pay for sex

        ah god that’s so embarrassing I’m making a fool of myself

        I’m not sure in case of leaving her what happens to her but she will be hurt cuz she is so dependent to me that obvious cuz for four year I was nothing to her but love and kindness despite her attitude.

        what I see is not a monster, she is just a helpless little girl.

        What do you think??

        1. Tired says:


          She certainly sounds very selfish, and took full advantage of your anxiety disorder. I’m no expert either, that’s for HG to decide.
          Do more reading here, read everything. The more I read the more I was able to pinpoint different behaviors in my narc and understand why he did them.
          Thank you for explaining. I apologise for thinking it was you who may have been the narc.

          1. HF says:


            It’s alright.
            sure I need more reading.

            Thanks for your comment.

  18. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    ALL my lot, are as tight as fish’s backsides 🐡
    Spend it now before the coronavirus gets you … haha
    Exceptional article …. sooooo true !
    Thank you Mr Tudor
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  19. Witch says:

    Also there’s…
    .insisting you put all of your earnings into the joint bank account
    .stopping you from working and giving you a strict allowance
    .constanly questioning how you are spending your own earnings and demanding to see your banks statements and recipients
    .Narc parents you live with: insisting that you save your money and that they don’t want your money, then expect that you give them money whenever they randomly ask when it’s not something you have been budgeting for since they told you to save your money

  20. vandenboss says:

    I found out that borrowing or lending money is also a way to control. When borrowing,by not paying back(future faking).Its also fuel and attention,when people come by your house each day crying for their money.The control and fuel they gain seem to out-way the critic that comes with this strategy( you loser,first you need to borrow and now you’re months late paying back).
    The control and fuel gained by lending are more obvious in my opinion.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are correct.

  21. Whitney says:

    The UMR Somatic told me many times that all he cares about is money and power. A typical Somatic described by the genius of your work.

    For example he was thinking of becoming a doctor. When I asked him why, his answer was status and money. He said he wouldn’t have empathy for the patients, but because doctors are in high demand, he could treat the patients in an arrogant way.

    I counsel him about his career because he’s confused. His reason for wanting to do anything is money and power.

    He cares about his looks A LOT, but cares most about money and power.

    I don’t understand how looks and money relate, as desires both exhibited by a Somatic narcissist.

    Today he once again said I should live at his parent’s house. I said it sounds scary because it’s an unknown situation. He said he completely understands and that I should spend 4 days there and see how I feel. He again said I should go on a month long cruise with his mum.

    He is reguraly at his parent’s house, controlling their relationship, finances, personal affects, etc. So if I lived there I guess it would be easier to control me.

    He showed up by surprise at my shop today. He parked at the neighboring shop so I couldn’t see his car, and I was shocked when he walked through the door. He said surprise, and he was excited that he “caught me” eating unhealthy food.
    Then he was straight into a flurry of complaints about my shop, and hyperfocused on one aspect, to the point I was laughing at him, and he was amused by himself. I’m easygoing, calm and good natured, HG, and he berates me with complaints.

    1. Witch says:

      Spend one night at his parents and he isn’t letting you leave

      1. Violetta says:

        Witch: that’s for damn sure!

        Whitney: there’s a movie with Orlando Bloom called The Good Doctor (no relation to the TV series). Watch what this guy does to the girl he thinks he loves.

    2. lisk says:

      He sounds very unattractive!

    3. Whitney says:

      Thank you Lisk and Witch.
      I thought I was nothing to him so I’m surprised he wants to keep me at his parents’ house.

      1. Violetta says:

        Whitney: you are nothing to him. Control is everything to him.

    4. Whitney says:

      HG I think he wants me at his parents’ house because he cares about me. That’s my emotional thinking.

      He lives with his primary source, a female friend, and they smoke marijuana everyday. And he wants me, a secondary source who is unimportant, to be kept in his parents’ ocean view mansion.

      He gave me marijuana once HG when we went camping and I coughed so much and went crazy. I thought I was in a dream. After that when I threaten his control he asks if I’ve gone crazy again.

      1. Witch says:

        Whitney its not about care.
        He wants you to live with him so he can closely monitor and control your time and movements, as well as monitor and control what you eat, as well as triangulate you with whoever else lives in the same house.
        His intention is to create a prison for you. That’s not love and that’s not care. It’s abuse. You’re being severely abused.

        1. HG Tudor says:


      2. Witch says:

        Whitney I’ve read your comment again and it sounds like he gave you more than just a bit weed… all weed does is make you feel “tipsy” like you’ve had a couple of glasses of wine
        I don’t know what the hell he gave to you but it’s not safe. I would advise not taking any kind of drugs from him, only god knows what he is trying to do to you when you’re high and he believes you won’t remember what has taken place.

        1. Violetta says:

          Whitney, Witch is correct. I smoked like a chimney in Jr high, but the first few times, it didn’t have any effect at all. It was actually rather depressing, everybody else giggling around me. That weed may have been treated with something if it worked so dramatically: angel dust? Opium? GOK.

          Your body needs a designated driver if you’re gonna indulge in anything: drugs, drink, falling asleep…is this the guy to be around when you are vulnerable? What if he slips you something in your food? What if his parents do?

          He’s already gaslighting you, questioning your sanity every time you disagree with him, reproaching you for the adverse reaction you had to a drug HE gave you! I wouldn’t even want this guy fo a stoner friend.

          There’s an old Latin saying that roughly translates into “Who’s going to protect us from the protectors?” Can you imagine if he did become a doctor, and had access to controlled substances?

          Please, cut this guy out of your life! You’d probably be safer picking up a one night stand at a cowboy bar.

          1. Whitney says:

            Thank you very much for your replies.

            I’m accepting and nonchalant but if I describe the behaviours I can see clearly and get feedback.

            He spoke softly when I was stoned and crazy. “No, you’re not in a dream” in a kind and soft voice. He led me around and told me what to do. My Codependency was amplified. I was scared to move or speak without his direction. I was confused spatially about up or down, and distance. I thought, the mind is all we have, and I’ve lost mine. I have sympathy for people who are crazy now.

            I’ll watch the Good Doctor thank you. His face is similar to Orlando Bloom, except more symmetrical with a perfect straight nose, stronger chin, and jet black hair. He’s so extremely attractive that people are astonished by his looks. He is tall as well with a beautiful body.

            Fuel comes easily because women approach him and he’s charming and confident. So he lives with his addict female friend, gets weed from her, and sleeps with other women. He wants me at his parents because it would stifle his freedom to live with me.

          2. Violetta says:


            Do you know about how long your high lasted?

          3. Witch says:

            I think exceptionally beautiful men are probably more dangerous than exceptionally beautiful women because they are more rare and they are doing it all without makeup. *sigh*
            However it does not compensate for how he is treating you and from how you have described some of the things he’s doing he sounds on the extreme end of controlling and it has me questioning if he could actually kill one of his women. Especially that it sounds like he stalks (believe it all not not all narcs do that) and it’s one of the high risk indicators leading to violence or homocide.
            Also it’s strangle that his parents would even agree to you living with them when he has had different women, so it’s possible that they are narcs too and wouldn’t mind another appliance to bully at home.
            Be very wary of a narcs family, remember they raised him and the last thing you want is having to escape multiple narcs at once

          4. Whitney says:

            Thank you both again.

            Violetta, in the morning my mind was back!! It lasted less than 12 hours.

            Witch, yes he is exceptionally beautiful.

            Regarding his different women- I think he has random one-off dates for fuel. He also has female friends he uses and lives with. He has their stable supply of fuel while he has total freedom to pursue fuel from random dates.

            His ‘relationship’ with me is more long-term. He has always wanted me involved with his parents in various ways. It’s like he can’t have a relationship with me, because he’s empty, so he bundles me with his parents while he lives a degenerate lifestyle. I don’t see it as a relationship because I’m a normal monogamous person, only fulfilling my addiction to Narcissists.

            He said his parents are nice and they will take care of me.

            The UMR Somatic is calculated. He plots and plans into the future. And he knows why he does things- for control, or to get a “reaction” from people.

            He won’t be violent or kill anyone. It would ruin his plans and façade. Thank you Witch <3

            I think he is extremely controlling. It's surprising he wants to control aspects of my life that don't affect him. I haven't experienced that before.

          5. Violetta says:


            A weed high lasts about four hours unless you smoke more. If you eat it, like pot brownies (or the guy at school who sprinkled it on pizza like oregano and baked it in, it will start later and last longer). You can’t monitor edibles as well, so I preferred smoking back in the day; the result was more immediate, and I could stop when I figured I’d had enough.

            It affects people differently, but the common thread seems to be accentuating whatever you’re already feeling: sad, happy, social, aloof. Eventually, the light may hurt your eyes, and many people get the munchies afterwards. I used to fix things like mac-n-cheese before I smoked because I knew I wouldn’t feel like cooking.

            What you have described sounds more like an acid trip: lasts about 8 hours, more hallucinations than are typical with most weed (although I’ve had them with hash). You can’t get off smoking acid, though, so here are the distinguishing marks:

            If you had a wave effect–like you’d get really intensely high for a few minutes, then come down again, then get another wave into a dream-state–that is typical of acid. So is seeing tracers: write your name with a sparkler and it stays up there. This may be permanent from the neurological changes, though not as dramatic–you wave your hand in front of your face and see the entire blur. Watching movies from too close becomes irritating.

            Angel dust (PCP) is different. I had a weird experience on blond hash once, which some acid-head friends later told me was very typical of acid. Others said it must have been PCP, because smoking acid does nothing, but the acid-head friends insisted that I wouldn’t have got the wave effect or the tracers and spatial distortion from PCP. They thought maybe there was acid in the beer.

            I actually saw the guy who brought the hash at a reunion and forgot to ask him, but he probably didn’t know what the hell was in it THEN, let alone remember now.

            You said he kindly led you around and told you what to do. If you’re not used to smoking and this was a camping trip, the logical thing would be to smoke around the campfire, then go to bed in the tent or cabin. He’d probably want to get cuddly at that point, but we knew to expect that. (Pink Floyd on the system optional.) If you weren’t in a relationship, people would smoke and watch cartoons or put on the inevitable Pink Floyd. Why would you encourage an inexperienced person to smoke before having to do anything requiring focus?

            The whole thing stinks–and I say this as someone who used to smoke with people I had just met at concerts and had no idea what I was inhaling.

          6. Witch says:


            He says his parents are nice, doesn’t mean that they are.
            I’ve met quite a lot of women who moved in with their narcs side of the family, sometimes because it was part of their culture to do so, and their husband’s family made their life hell. Some had been turned into domestic slaves by the family, some had to ask their husband’s parents for permission before leaving the house. Some have been physically assaulted by their sister in law.
            Gurl! Don’t do it

          7. Whitney says:

            I really appreciate your help, Violetta and Witch.

            Violetta thank you for telling me about drugs and your experiences.

            I think I had too much weed, and my brain has a difference or sensitivity that resulted in a psychotic type episode. I’m interested in how these biochemical machines are different for each person (our brains).

            I won’t do drugs again, after the revelation that my mind is my existence. I don’t want to lose it!

            Witch thank you for warning me. I think his parents are nice. He says they would cook for me and take care of me. And I would be in a selfcontained suite.

            I definitely won’t move there, though. I just find his behaviour inconsistent with our relationship and with my status in his matrix. I thought I was a less important victim.
            He is calculating.
            I’m on the way towards no contact.

          8. FYC says:

            Hi Whitney, I love your kind heart, but it is best to always keep it safe from Ns. Your N’s parents created the N. All things are not as they seem. If they do care for you, this WILL be used for leverage. Your kindness and caring heart WILL be manipulated. His offer is one that would increase his available control and therefore is consistent with his N status. Please reread:

            That said, I am pleased to know you will not move there and you are on your way to no contact. Huge win for you! Stay strong and keep using your head over your heart.

          9. Whitney says:

            FYC thank you for saying kind heart, you do as well.

      3. Witch says:

        I think I replied to one of violettas comments instead of yours so you won’t get the notification, so please look for my other comments because it’s important. This is my second comment to you today.

        Regarding the narc not being likely to kill.. physical violence is not necessarily indicative that a narc is likely to commit domestic homocide. Some narcs have killed without ever using physical violence on their partner. Some have been married for 15-20 years before killing their partner.
        And in most cases of domestic homocide there is pre-planning/pre-contemplation going on in the narcs mind. Some narcs create “murder kits” some google “how long will I get sentenced to prison for murder.”
        What makes these narcs stand out, is the excessively level of control they seek to have, excessive jealousy, stalking indicates that someone is excessively obsessed and possessive which is makes them particularly dangerous.
        So it’s not always an eruption of rage resulting in violence that makes a narc likely to kill.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Do you have any statistics for this statement “And in most cases of domestic homocide there is pre-planning/pre-contemplation going on in the narcs mind. ” ?

          1. Witch says:

            No HG,
            I got the information from a criminologist, it was a presentation about domestic homocides.
            I can’t remember her name, I’ll get back to you with her name

        2. Whitney says:

          Hi Witch
          Thank you so much for your comment.
          I’m sorry I didn’t see this comment before.

          He’s controlling on a level I haven’t experienced. And I’ve only been with Psychopaths or Narcs.

          I watched a documentary about a cult. The cult leader made recommendations for their diets. But nothing like how he tries to control my diet.

          I think he’s especially controlling even for a Narc.

          Now with Coronavirus he’s saying he’ll book a cruise to Asia if I don’t do what he says. Haha

          1. Witch says:

            Hi Whitney,
            Yes he does sound especially controlling. I’ve never had a narc try to control my diet either. I’ve been told not to get fat after the fifth date so I stopped seeing that person but that’s about all I’ve experienced around diet.

            as you’ve only been with narcs, I’m curious, did you have a narc parent?

          2. Whitney says:

            Hi Witch,

            By the way, you mentioned you replied to me twice that day- thank you for that.
            I look forward to finding all your comments! I don’t know how to be alerted so I look manually.

            That’s good you stopped seeing that person.

            Yes, I think my mum is a Narc. I told HG she’s a super empath. I suffer from confusion about her.

            Anyway, both of my parents parentified me. I had too much control as a child. My mum acted like MY child, still does. Now I like grandiose Narcs. I feel safer. I don’t have to be in control or in charge. They plan and organise everything including me. They ‘care’ about me.

          3. Violetta says:


            Makes sense. You had to be the parent: when is it your turn to be the child?

            Problem is, that Sugar-Daddy Narc isn’t an adult trying to nurture you. He’s a child trying to use you as a toy.

          4. Whitney says:

            Thank you Violetta for understanding!

            I’ve never had someone ‘care’ about what I do, when it has no impact on them.

            His outburts are genuine. For example I got into my car and the door hadn’t been locked. He erupted “Whitney!!!!! Lock your car”, it startled me.

            He was like that since our first date. But he used to say my name sweetly and softly. “Whitney… You can’t do that” And looked at me, concerned.

            He put oil in my car and forced me to get it serviced.

            He wants me to eat healthy food. He knows important things I need to do for my business. Etc.

            I don’t care about money. But he did say he would “bail me out” if I ever needed, and that made me feel safe, too.

            Taking care of my family is ongoing. So it feels good to have someone focused on my life.

            My parents were emotionally dependent on me. Substance abuse and mental illness. Crying and out of control they would tell me things very inappropriate for a child. They were both a mess.

            I like grandiose men. I like Psychopaths. They don’t cry.

      4. Witch says:


        I would take whatever narcs say about their family with a pinch of salt, especially considering the fact that he is telling you they are nice because he wants you to live with them.
        I’m glad to hear that you’re moving towards no contact. He may be good looking but not all that glitters is gold and you deserve the real thing

        1. Whitney says:

          Thank you so much Witch.
          I saw him at our sport today. He said he’ll take me on a 2 week cruise for a reward if I eat and run my business to his standards. That made me happy.
          He said the cruise can easily be taken away. He found out I did something he didn’t like… “What the fuck Whitney!!!!” and said the cruise has been downgraded from the Mediterranean to Eastern Europe.
          I can’t resist this exquisitely attractive narcissist.

          1. Witch says:

            No problem,
            Remember I’m saying this because I care… I don’t think he really intends on taking you on a cruise around anywhere, he’s playing you because he wants you to do what he says. If someone really wanted to take you on holiday, they just would

          2. Violetta says:

            Whitney: please, don’t even take the Staten Island Ferry with this ass-clown, let Al be go anywhere you’d need a passport. How you run your business is none of HIS business.

            When I was new in NY, there were ads in the auditions for singers to get what was then an outrageous amount to sing in Japan. I knew it was a scam of some kind, but never bothered to find out which kind. I later learned they take away your passport and force you into prostitution.

          3. Whitney says:

            Thanks Witch!
            I think he’s serious about the cruise but I won’t go. I’m too scared. I only see him in small doses.
            To spend a long time with a narc is hell on earth. I’m so sensitive to people’s emotions and I wanna make them feel good. Narcs are constantly agitated with no apparent reason and I don’t know how to respond. It’s stressful to be around.

          4. Whitney says:

            Yes Violetta, thanks! hahaha I love how you said “clown”. I won’t travel with him, ever. It would be a nightmare.

            My friend hammered it in today too. She knows and hates him. She tells me who he is and shatters my delusions.

            Another Narc at our sport hunts kangaroos. My friend said the UMR Somatic sees me the same way the other Narc sees the kangaroo. They don’t think about us when they aren’t hunting us.

            She got stung by a bee at our sport last night and I’ve never seen the UMR Somatic look so relaxed and contented.

            That’s really sad about the scam.

        2. Whitney says:

          I’ve been using the cruise to annoy him. I told him it needs to be at least 5 star and a luxury suite on one of the biggest vessels in the world. I said 4.5 star wouldn’t be good enough.
          He keeps saying “”you don’t get to dictate” and he said it’ll be a dinghy if I don’t meet the expectations.
          I like to threaten their control and get a reaction.

          1. Witch says:

            It’s better for your own safety and sanity not to try to go out of your way to threaten his control as this may increase your risk. It is also not a viable solution in the long term as you will only keep going around in circles.
            No contact is the only way to freedom. I know you’re working on it. Whatever motivates you to go no contact, keep cultivating it and fanning that flame.
            I knew that by going no contact it would punish the narc and that’s what helped me to maintain it. I also started trying new things I never did before and forced on delevoping my confidence. It was hard but worth it. I’m part co-dependent so I’m not one of those people that love being single and therefore I can’t completely avoid romantic interests. However the knowledge that I gained here meant I was able to cut off the freaks early and now I’m with an empath.
            There is a lot better out there for you, you just have to believe it.

          2. Ashley says:

            Whitney, he is likely future faking about the cruise. I’ve dated wealthy narcissists. Wealthy on different scales. For example, a couple years ago would say all this romantic stuff about taking me to Paris. He never did lol. I’m not into Paris anyway I’ve been before & I was not impressed so it wasn’t even something I cared about. Don’t waste your time & brain cells on this guy you’re referring to. He can really hurt you & it’s not worth it hun. 💖

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