To Control Is To Cope : Narcissism and Its Creation


To deal with and to address the vagaries of life, human beings have developed coping mechanisms. These coping mechanisms vary in terms of the extent of their use, their impact on the user, the impact on others and the frequency of their deployment. Some coping mechanisms are regarded as ‘healthy’ and others as ‘unhealthy’ and some may be a hybrid of the two, dependent on the extent and duration of usage.

Distancing is a coping mechanism. You may distance yourself from a situation and people, but prolonged and extensive distancing may lead to isolation with the associated problems which such isolation can bring. Short-term distancing can allow recovery, re-charging and avoidance of an ongoing harmful situation. Longer-term distancing which is targeted on one or more chief proponents of harm can lead to near complete removal from toxic and harmful influences. No contact of course is a coping mechanism which incorporates distancing as a central tenet of it and is the most effective coping mechanism to apply with regard to your recovery from ensnarement with our kind.

Crying is another coping mechanism. The release of tension, held-grief, feelings of misery often evaporate as a consequence of somebody crying. You may be told ‘have a good cry, you will feel better’ and indeed many people have testified to the beneficial impact of doing so and thus crying achieves release and often acts as a signal to invite comfort from others. It is a coping mechanism deployed by people to deal with a stressful, worrying or hurtful situation.

Self-harming is a further form of coping. The distraction caused by the painful response of cutting (cutting being just one form of self-harming) enables an individual to relieve the pain of certain other feelings, it achieves a release, a distraction and also enables that individual to exert control in circumstances where they feel unable to exert control (or to the extent that would make them feel comfortable). Self-harming whilst a coping mechanism is regarded as a negative form of a coping mechanism.

Expression of feelings. Being able to ‘talk it out’ and ‘air your feelings’ is a coping mechanism also. The ability to talk to someone else who will just listen, even if they offer nothing in response or even just to talk to yourself about how you are feeling (be it generally or in relation to something specific) enables people to experience a sense of release, a lightening of a particular load and it often brings clarity in terms of understanding themselves and finding a way forward.

There are many coping mechanisms that humans deploy – some are conscious and others occur unconsciously.

Narcissism is one such coping mechanism and it is a powerful and invariably hugely effective, although its effectiveness does depend on the school of the narcissist and which particular outcome one is having regard to. The outcome of our narcissism is something that I shall address in a separate article.

Narcissism must maintain the construct (the false self) and imprison the creature (the true self).  Collectively this is the Self-Defence of the Narcissist. This Self-Defence is achieved through the The Prime Aims(fuel, character traits and residual benefits).

Central to this Self-Defence and the achievement of The Prime Aims is control. The narcissist must at all times have control of his or her environment and the people within that environment which of course includes you. Whether you are a stranger, an acquaintance, a friend, a colleague, a relative or a romantic partner. Whether you are a neighbour, a date, sister or brother, that man from the corner store or fiancée – you come within the fuel matrix of the narcissist and you have to be subjected to the control of the narcissist.

This control has to be exerted second by second of each and every day. Every passing moment must be owned and governed by the narcissist. We must exert control all around us, this has to be complete and total as if the very clouds were tethered by us. Why is that?

Because once upon a time the narcissist did not have control.

That lack of control meant the narcissist felt powerless, weak, vulnerable and exposed.

The combination of a genetic predisposition and the imposition of this lack of control created narcissism as the coping mechanism. These two ingredients combined and gave ‘birth’ to narcissism as a means of coping with the world, with the lack of control that the world causes for individuals. Many people have no issue with this lack of control, others have alternative coping mechanisms and then there is us – the narcissists. Around one in six of the human population of this planet became narcissists in order to cope with this loss of control.

Narcissism allows the imposition of control through manipulation. The imposition of control allows us to achieve the Prime Aims. The achievement of the Prime Aims allows our Self-Defence and thus we survive and we thrive.

Narcissism is a coping mechanism.

People believe that abuse is theingredient in the formation of a narcissist. It is an ingredient, yes, but there are two ingredients in the formation of our kind. The first ingredient is the genetic predisposition, if you will this is the fertile soil which provides the basis for the narcissism to grow and flourish. The second ingredient is the lack of control (of which abuse is part of that lack of control) and this is the ‘seed’ which is placed in the fertile soil of the genetic predisposition and thus narcissism ‘grows’ as the coping mechanism. For some, the soil is there but no seed ever arrives and thus no narcissist. For others, there is no soil but there is the seed, but again with one essential ingredient missing, there can be no narcissism.

Genetic predisposition plus lack of control (at a formative stage of life) equals narcissist.

What does this lack of control (at a formative stage of life – i.e. childhood) look like?

  • Abuse. Whether it is physical, emotional, sexual or psychological, any form of abuse towards us amounts to a lack of control. We could not defend ourselves against the abuse and therefore this is a lack of control, over ourselves and over those who meted out abusive harm towards us. The abuse is an act of commission – we were beaten, molested sexually, told we were useless, insulted etc.
  • Isolated. Whether this was being locked in a cupboard under the stairs, prevented from playing with other children, kept apart from other family members, not allowed to participate in group activities of any nature, given silent treatments and treated as if we did not exist, isolating and ostracising us in some form again constituted a lack of control. We were not able to control our own interactions, someone else did this for us and to our detriment. We were controlled by another and thus lacked control.
  • Neglect. Whilst there may not have been abusive acts of commission , there are abusive acts of omission. Therefore we were not given a safe environment, we were not taught effectively (be it about ‘facts’, relationships, behaviour, responsibility), we were not emotionally supported, we were not fed, clothed or protected, we were not shielded from an abuser of commission and/or we could roam where we wanted. Once again we were denied control over ourselves because we were not provided with the assets, resources and tools to achieve effective control over our lives and this neglect (lack of control) exposed us to hurt, pain, disease, injury, loneliness and/or acts of abuse through commission.
  • The Golden Child. Everything we did was lauded and praised. It was invariably held up as a glowing and shining example of brilliance, even when it was not or the praise was excessive for a valid achievement. This meant we lacked control in the sense of earningachievements in a valid fashion. We had greatness thrust upon us without being ready for it, without having earned it and without appreciating it. Everything came to us too easily and this also amounted to a lack of control. We had no control over the outcome from our endeavours, we felt no compulsion to achieve and apply endeavour because whatever we did (bad, mediocre or good) was met with accolade, praise and the lavishing of ‘how brilliant’. We were denied the ability to control our own destiny.
  • Shifting Sands. Where we experienced Shifting Sands we had a lack of control because the environment around us at that formative stage lacked constancy. One day the sun shone and the next day, even though everything else appeared to stay the same to us, there was a thunderstorm. On Monday our painting was declared to be ‘Rembrandt in the making’ (a la Golden Child) and by Friday our painting ‘was the work of a moron wielding a potato for a paintbrush’. The application of black and white thinking by the aggressor created an uncertain environment, one of push and pull, idealisation and devaluation and we had no control whatsoever on which version was going to appear to us. There was a lack of control in our lives through uncertainty, unpredictability and those shifting sands.
  • B Graders. ‘It’s good but not good enough.’ ‘You can do far better.’ ‘You are not trying hard enough.’ ‘You are letting yourself down but moreover you are letting me down.’ These phrases and those similar to it encapsulate the loss of control felt by those who are ‘The B Graders’. Each time the hill was climbed and the summit anticipated, another hill suddenly appeared. The effort was okay, decent enough, acceptable but never that which met with approval. Keep going, learn more, be faster, swim stronger, climb higher, shine brighter. There was no control because we were never allowed a moment to settle, to cherish that which had been achieved and to reflect. We could not establish our own parameters of achievement and satisfaction but instead we were always beholden to the standards of another which ultimate proved to be unobtainable standards and thus we had no control.
  • The Facsimile. We were shaped to be precisely like the aggressor. Sometimes this was entirely at the behest of the aggressor and sometimes we saw how this individual behaved and decided ‘I want that power also’ (usually unconsciously but sometimes, such as was the case for me – consciously). Whilst you may think a conscious decision to copy the aggressor and thus seize power was a form of control, it was not – this was actually a product of the already establishing narcissism and thus a symptom rather than a cause. Where the aggressor caused us to be moulded just like them – forming our opinions, our views, our behaviours, our likes and dislikes, what we wore, what we ate, where we went, what we did and in some instances alongside this there was an unconscious decision to mimic and copy those behaviours and characteristics, we were once again denied control.

Thus, whether we came from an impoverished background, a gilded background, a seemingly run-of-the-mill background, any of those environments had the potential to cause a lack of control in our lives. Take this lack of control and add it to the genetic predisposition and thus our coping mechanism of narcissism was given birth to.

Narcissism became our way of coping with the world.

Narcissism allowed us to exert control.

A lack of control equates to a lack of power.

A lack of control equates to  being vulnerable.

A lack of control equates to being weak.

A lack of control equates to being worthless, meaningless and unimportant.

When we lack control, we start to fade and will no longer exist.

A lack of control now returns us to the lack of control then.

This must never happen for too long and thus we were formed from this lack of control adding to our genetic predisposition and in order to survive and thrive we must never, ever lack control for if this persists, well, then, it ends.

We must have absolute control. And that means absolute control over you, him, her, them but most of all YOU.

104 thoughts on “To Control Is To Cope : Narcissism and Its Creation

  1. sunnybeinsunshine says:

    It choked me reading this..truly heartbreaking what many children have to try to cope with.I have deep compassion for NPD children….. and Im learning to seperate that compassion I have for the child which lead me to being entwined with the adult NPD…that and my empathy and Codependance. Fantastic article very insightful but truly very sad.

  2. Renarde says:

    Really intresting comments here. I’ll throw my 2p on. As a teacher.

    There are striking similarities between Aspergers and NPD people. Striking. But the main difference rests in the facade. Autistic people have none. No concept of the facade whatsoever. Moreover some but not all have a uniquely atypical look around their eyes. Which is almost always absent in people with NPD.

    I have probably had access to more than others have. High functioning ones are usually utterly brilliant. I have found them to be kind and very thoughtful. In fact, I dont think I’ve ever met an autistic child that I genuinely did not like. But never get into an intellectual discussion with them because their thought patterns ho round in circles.

    Ones that are not as intelligent are precious in their own way. First thing, you can never get an autistic child to do something they do not want to do. If not learning that lesson resonates with how they feel that day, good luck! But an absolute key point is that THEY DO NOT CARE how they are viewed. A person with NPD would.

    And even though we all know that a diagnosis of NPD shouldn’t be made in even a young adult; I found one. Tall, handsome, clever. I’d suggest a UM pos. Elite. Not aware, he was too much of a twat. He used to wander in, ten minutes late to A Level Physics. I didnt mind that so much as the disruption he caused. And every time, I’d just throw him out of class. Not fair on the other lads. I’m sure he HATED that threat to his control. Good

    In the end, he had to be removed because in the words of my boss, ‘He was struggling to control his temper’ in precisely the same way my exH would. He had a tell.

    I loathe the way autism and NPD are usually conflated. Exceptions will exist of course. So not fair on autistic people.

    1. sunnybeinsunshine says:

      As the mother of an Autistic child and a staunch advocate for Autistic people Id like to ask you to consider this question.Why if you as i do loathe the way Autism and NPD are conflated would you contribute to it by writing what you have written here and keep that loathsome conflation circulating and current? NPDs and Autistics are nothing alike.
      My ex partner is NPD and my son is Autistic and their core operating systems are worlds apart.Autistic people..a great majority of them are hyper empathetic but display that empathy very differently than Neurotypicals. Narcs as we all know, are bereft of empathy..that basic core trait puts them poles apart and there are many others but perhaps most notably narcissists have no `core.` Autistics can quite easily self validate internally,thats how they are innately wired and NPDS seek continual external validation.
      There is also no such thing as a `high functioning Autistic nor low functioning Autistic.`.The term is deeply ableist and extremely damaging to Autistics. Autistic people are all simply Autistic with different levels of need..the same as Neurotypicals..but the world and often those in the education system and medical professions seem to love pathologising Autistics..`othering` them which comes from a deep seated arrogant perspective that Neurotypicals are the cream of the crop..the master race so Autistics are obviously `lacking` and `defective.` Not so..Autistics have always been here they are part of natural human divergence..they are different not less than.The very reason Autistic people will not just do as you ask is because they have a `very strong sense of self` and admirably refuse to be `sheep` and never require any external source/person to validate that nor them and Narcissists are the exact opposite they have no self and need others and external sources to validate them.
      My response is not meant to irk and apologies if my anger is spilling out all over it..but Its tiresome and infuriating to read Autistics being compared to NPDs when you are the mother of a beautiful kind hearted fun loving intelligent Autistic child.The spreading of this misinformation is damaging to my son and other Autistics lives and as Im sure you know, Autistic people already have enough generalisations and misinformation in circulation to correct and deal with.

      1. Renarde says:


        I can understand and empathise how difficult it must be to be the mother of an autistic child. There is no need to apologise.

        However, I’m singularly failing to understand your post. Please read mine again.

        We ARE in agreement. Totally. Can you pick out a point where I have stated otherwise?

        As to language, I have an aspergers friend who refers to himself as high functioning. I talk to him about autism. I had no idea that it was offensive or I wouldn’t have said it. So, that is my ignorance which I apologise for.

        To reiterate, too many people with NPD hide under the auspice of autism AND BPD.

        In both, there are SOME similarities which if you were not familiar with multiple examples of either, you could be fooled.

        I hope this clarifies things.

  3. Cindiwindiwoo says:

    Fascinating article…thank you!! For me it was interesting to compare my own coping mechanisms as a co-dependent. Of course I “imitated” my Mother and that wasn’t the healthiest option but the best one at the time. Denial was the name of our game!!

  4. Witch says:

    My mother was raped as a child which is part of why she’s a narc. My father’s parents were most likely narcs and so my father is narcissistic and his brother is a full on lesser narc. My father’s mother’s father (my great grandfather) was most likely a narc hence why he beat his kids, so thus my grandmother is probably a narc. My mother claims her mum is a narc but I’m not sure how true that is since narcs exaggerate their woes. My uncle on my mums side appears to be more towards the narcissistic end of things, he used to bully me as a child, my sister appears to have prominent narc traits mainly rage and jealousy.
    This why my womb is out of service. The narc genes are too real.

    1. Kristin says:

      Good Lord Witch, amazing you are still functioning coming from such a background. I agree with you regarding genes, they are very powerful. You have lived it more than most and I feel for you but have appreciated your comments.

      1. Witch says:

        Thank you Kristin,
        Luckily I didn’t witness everything. My parents broke up when I was a baby, but I have gained insight through my mum, my dad and witnesses.
        I also believe my dad has an undiagnosed learning disability and ‘til this day his mum puts him down and tells him he’s incapable of doing this or that. I understand why both my parents sucked at parenthood and relationships.
        The difference is, if I’m honest with my dad about how he was a shit dad, he takes it. You can’t say anything to my mum without her shouting at you. She even says “I wouldn’t shout if you didn’t give me anything to shout about,” so I don’t speak to her anymore. My dad is trying to make amends before he bites the dust so I’ve given him a chance.

        1. Kristin says:

          You do have great insight and a clear understanding in regard to your parents, their past and why they behave as they do. I understand not speaking with your mother anymore, you have to take care of yourself and it was necessary. It sounds like it was a no-win situation any way you looked at it.

          I commend you and the empathy you are able to show towards your father, you will not regret it. The fact that he wants to make amends is a blessing in itself. It doesn’t erase him being a shit dad, but will hopefully give you both peace.

          I found this site in November and have read a number of your posts. You are level headed and your insights have helped me. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and for being so open about what you have experienced. Everyone here has a story and it often brings tears to my eyes but it is how we all grow and learn from one another so the tears are worth it.

          1. Witch says:

            Wow thank you Kristin
            It’s great to know that my comments here are not taking up unnecessary space.
            Sometimes I worry that I’m commenting too much/over-sharing or not contributing much that is useful.
            Some of my comments are cynical and I’m going to try to be less like that on here cause my intention is not to drag anyone down with me.
            And now that you’ve said this to me, I realise that my comments are effecting people more than I previously thought so it means I have to be more responsible with it.
            But thank you I’m touched

          2. Kristin says:

            Honestly Witch, your candor and no-nonsense approach is refreshing. Your comments are by no means taking up unnecessary space, it is lethargic for you and helpful to others. Based on your posts, you have come across as confident and self-assured. Being cynical is needed at times as a means of coping, I can totally relate. You were most likely berated and judged by all of the narcs in your life so the beauty of being here is that you can be yourself.

            HG is a real as it gets. He doesn’t pull punches, is brutally honest, which I need, and I have the utmost respect for him. I cannot stand to be around people who are fake and shallow where you have no idea where you stand with them or what they are thinking. This site is full of so amazing, real people and you as one of them. You are not sitting around pissing and moaning about your crappy childhood. You are moving forward, working on yourself, contributing and in turn helping others. This is evident as you make amends with your father.

            I too have worried about posting and fear looking like a whiney, needy idiot as I do not like attention. I was a complete mess when I found this site in November. I shared my situation and revealed things that my closest friends and family do not know. The outpouring of support and HG was truly what saved me. I have said it before, I feel safe here and can express myself without judgement. I hope that you feel that way too so keep being you! 😊

          3. Witch says:

            Thank you Kristin,
            I agree that this site is the only place that we can express ourselves and receive accurate information, rather than be given disempowering information like “narcissism is very rare” or “with the right support the narcissist will change” or that obvious abusive behaviour can be attributed to *insert some bollocks excuse here*
            And “there needs to be an in-depth psychological assessment by a qualified psychotherapist before we can really know whether or not someone is a narcissist;” When psychologists are the worst people at identifying narcissism.
            They diagnose them with “conduct disorder” which is just a PC way of calling them a narcissist or psychopath.
            It’s ridiculous how they tip toe around the issue.

            I’m glad you made it here and have found it helpful. Finding this site has been life changing for me. It’s helped me to see my empathic traits as a gift, blessing to others and worthy of respect.
            My girlfriend is also a natural healer but of physical ailments. She can look at someone for 5 secs and know what they need to do fix their back pain or strengthen their knees and avoid surgery, even though she not qualified in anything medical.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            I am pleased to read that you find this place a constructive environment conducive to understanding and expression. That was part of the aim in creating it.

          5. Witch says:

            Yes, no where else is as helpful or constructive. Especially for someone who’s as cheeky as me. As you know Sam Vaknin blocked me lol!!

          6. Kristin says:

            This site has been life changing for me as well. I think it is important to learn about ourselves as much as possible before we can even begin to understand and deal with the narcissists in our life.

            Yes, being an empath is a gift! It has truly amazed me how HG, using a simple questionnaire, was able to describe who I am perfectly and answer so many questions that I had about myself. Being an empath can be a curse and a blessing. I have often thought that I am not meant for this world because absorbing other people’s emotions, being drawn to helping others and and having a very strong intuition, among other things, is mentally and physically exhausting. However, I would not change who I am and see it as more of a blessing than anything else.

            It sounds a though you and your girlfriend are a good match. I presume, between the two of you, there is a lot of healing and that people are drawn to you both.

          7. Lorelei says:

            Kristin—I’m glad to read that you find it a gift. I would say the real gift for me rests in the understanding of the dynamic & individual factors that cause many of the issues I have had/have… I will not say that this accumulation of traits that is defined under the umbrella of the term empath is the gift. It has caused incredible misery for me and people I care about. It allows an addiction to abusive people to flourish and that is an intolerable consequence. I would not elect it, no, under no circumstance. I understand there are moments that can be helpful. That’s about it. Just last night I chewed someone out and she was compliant and abiding after the event. To be so cold and so authoritarian isn’t even comfortable. But it’s necessary at times in my work environment. So, a normal can do that and not really be too bothered after the matter. I don’t like behaving in that manner but as I said—my work can almost require it in certain moments. What I’m trying to say is that being burdened with a lot of guilt or consideration for others is at times a huge hindrance, it is more of a liability than there is ever any revenue gained by this personality disposition. Now I assume next steps would be to take what is there and capitalize it into something with more “capture” than give, but to do this is a monumental self-proposal.

          8. Kristin says:

            I totally understand and can relate. You had to go against who you are and I’m sure being uncomfortable was an understatement. You did what was necessary and I admire your strength but as you know being an empath is ingrained in us and it is extremely difficult to be any different, even if required. Yes, it is a hinderance and like you, has caused me immeasurable pain. You have the right attitude in capitalizing on what you can’t change about who you are. Focusing on that aspect will hopefully pave a way for you to see the wonderful things about yourself and the gifts that you have in lieu of the pain that comes with being an empath. To change something that is stronger than we are seems impossible and perhaps not meant to be. That is not to say that we cannot improve ourselves or change certain aspects but I find that embracing who I am and focusing on my gifts is easier than fighting it. I do not want that to come across as taking the easy way out, but it is how I cope when all I want to do at times is be done with it all. I am who I am just as you are and although you have said that it has caused misery for those you care about, I venture a guess that they love you no matter what and wouldn’t trade you for the world.

            I know no other way but I now have an understanding as to why I am addicted to toxic people and why they are drawn to me. I am trying to stay positive however, I feel like I am barely keeping my head above water most days. We feel things so strongly and being with a narc is so very challenging at every moment, at least in my situation. Since the prick works from home and we run a business together, I rarely get a break from him. This past week I was finally able to get away and cried for a straight hour on one occasion and for 30 minutes on the next. I do not say this for sympathy but to let you know that despite my efforts to stay positive, I understand what you are going through and I am sorry. There are days more difficult than others but you have come so far and the support you have given me has been such a blessing.

            It can be such a lonely existence, we want to know the truth and fix things but you are healing and working on yourself and for that you should be proud. Step back, give yourself a break and try to see yourself as others do. Sending hugs your way 😘

          9. Lorelei says:

            Kristin—I am so sorry that you are still in the home with him. Yes, there is an allowance of comfort in understanding what has been occurring repeatedly. I believe I have shared with HG that this has been the panacea for all that has been amiss. It’s been more expansive for me than just romantic entanglements. It fits all things into a neatly arranged puzzle of sorts. I wish not—I wish HG were incorrect but I know he is not because I (as you & others) see evidence to the contrary. It fits like a glove and not the OJ glove. It’s mind boggling to me that he’s assimilated all of this by mainly observing others, but in a way he would have to as a means of being effective based on his own personal traits. I do poke at him that he is a nice married man with a pond, kids, and family dogs. It’s all in jest—I’m certain he would not have this information that is so fitting just by random accident.

          10. Kristin says:

            You have described it well because knowing what we are dealing with does provide a certain level of comfort. I really like how you are able to have so much insight into narcs and how they affect us and the way in which you describe.

            At first I was relieved, then shocked and now have no doubt as to what he is. To have to interact with narcs is exhausting, even when you know what they are and why they act as they do. I was relieved when HG confirmed that the prick was a narc but still had doubts regarding his lack of empathy and whether or not he knew what he was doing. I now see that it is my ET and whenever I question whether or not I can go through with escaping, I just wait a few minutes and he provides yet another reminder of why I cannot stay as I won’t survive it mentally or physically (the toll it has taken on my health.) I will be clinging to HG and you all when the time comes because he will attempt to decimate me.

            I too continue to be amazed at how HG has assimilated all of this especially since he cannot relate to our “feelings” and ET. Perhaps the fact that he is so far removed had given him the unique ability to do so and he can be objective.

            Your humor is welcomed! I wonder what he named his children and if they look like him 😅

          11. Witch says:

            I’ve had similar thoughts. Some a lot darker than that. But I also realise that if we didn’t play our roles as empaths the world would be far worse off. We are needed more than ever.
            I’m very lucky to have my girlfriend, she’s been a tremendous blessing in my life.

          12. Kristin says:

            Absolutely Witch, imagine a world without empaths, it’s a scary thought. That is one reason I am proud of who I am despite the struggle and days when I want to be gone from this world. I am crying right now because you can relate to having been in such a horrible state of mind. I have never told anyone that I have felt that way. I am ashamed of myself for having such thoughts because of my beautiful children but sometimes the pain is just overwhelming. Hence the beauty of this site and for people like you. Thanks for being so open.

            I am glad that you have someone in your life that provides you with the love and support you need, especially after growing up around a sea of narcs.

          13. Witch says:

            You have nothing to be ashamed of. Your children are lucky to have an empath for a mother. I never had any issue with my mother’s mistakes or weaknesses, all of that could be forgiven if she wasn’t a narcissist. We take a lot on as empaths sometimes significantly more than what others would and it is only fair and right that others have to hear us out too.
            It’s better to talk about how you’re feeling than keeping it bottled up.

          14. Kristin says:

            I would like to add one more thing, I would never take my own life. I am a very strong woman, I’ve had to be since a young child but living with an abusive narc for 28 years had taken its toll. That being said, I now have the tools provided by HG to take care of myself until I can leave and that is worth its weight in gold.

          15. HG Tudor says:

            Jolly good.

          16. Witch says:

            I’m glad you found this site and I’m rooting for you

          17. Kristin says:

            Thank you Witch.

        2. Violetta says:


          A) If HG found problems with your posts, he’d either filter them or casually rip you a new orifice or seven. We’ve all seen him do the latter.

          B) Sam Vaknin blocked you? Now this I gotta hear!

          If you don’t feel like typing it all over again, please direct me to.appropriate thread (or we’ll ask Police Chief O’Hara to shine the Narchivist Signal).

          1. K says:

            Me too. Witch was watching a YT video of Sam Vaknin diagnosing Jesus as a psychopathic narcissist last month and now she has been blocked! We all gotta hear!


          2. Witch says:

            It was on his Instagram account. He was saying that most narcs are self aware but proud of being a narc and think that it makes them superior to everyone else.
            I replied explaining that most narcs are not self aware and are misdiagnosed.
            He said that research says otherwise and this is a fact.
            And I said that most narcs are not part of any research because a) they don’t seek help therefore don’t end up being part of any research and b) they are misdiagnosed as having adjustment disorder, depression, ptsd etc
            I said I knew someone that was diagnosed with “adjustment disorder with a high level of entitlement” and I said “adjustment disorder my arse, that’s a narc!”
            Then he blocked me 😆

          3. HG Tudor says:

            A compact example of the provision of the need to assert control, the threat to that control through the provision of Challenge Fuel and then the assertion of control by blocking (disengagement).

          4. theletterafterj says:

            Hot damn! Blocked by SV on instagram. He’s a shortsighted, arrogant fool. To hell with him, all the cool empaths/apaths are on narcsite anyway.

          5. Witch says:

            I’m so shocked he can even get a woman.
            Someone told him his worked has really helped her and thanked him and he said “this is about ME not about YOU”

          6. K says:

            Well, That’s a fine how-do-you-do! He is an arrogant, pompous ass!

          7. Witch says:

            He seems to like Richard Grannon more than his wife, maybe those two should get married and be done with it
            Is RG a narc? I can’t remember if this has already been answered..
            I’m suspicious of him, especially that he criticises people for continuing to learn about narcissism years later and says they should have moved on by now and stop going on sites about narcissism. When this MF is still here talking about narcissism everyday on his YT channel, making a career out of it lol!

          8. theletterafterj says:

            Hahahaha…RG’s fuel is fresher. I found these comments, if you want to read them in their entirety, just use the link below and I am suspicious of him, as well. Telling people to move on displays a lack of emotional empathy because there’s always new information to learn. Leaning is dynamic, not static, so it’s important to stay current.

            A383 says:
            April 17, 2019 at 00:39
            Richard Grannon gave you a very respectful ‘shout out’ when promoting the recent Radio 4 interview you both featured in.

            He is not a narcissist, but you know this already HG. x

            HG Tudor says:
            April 17, 2019 at 08:34
            I do not know him to make an assessment one way or another.


          9. Witch says:

            It’s the hypocrisy that gets to me.
            It’s okay for him to repeat whatever SV and HG has already said just in different words and make money from it (wonder how much it costs to get into his seminars?) but if you’re still watching YT videos about narcissism or reading about narcissism 3 years later that’s a problem for him?
            He’s been making YT videos for years now, why doesn’t he stop and move on?
            What qualifications does he have? He’s not an a greater narcissist, nor is he a psychologist. For all we know he is spreading misinformation, even psychologists get it wrong so who is he?
            The idea that we should just move on after X amount of years is naive considering that the narc we met isn’t the only narc we are ever going to meet. We are likely to meet several in our lifetime.

          10. K says:

            It is VERY naive. We, our loved ones, friends, etc., will always be targeted by narcissists everywhere we go and we must remain vigilant and telling people to move it along isn’t prudent. If people don’t have access to quality information then they may not be able to move on and RG may perceive that as wallowing. He’s no fool, if he’s making money off of his seminars then he will keep doing them irrespective of quality.

            I am not sure what his qualifications are but I thought he was the victim of a female narcissist and made YouTube videos to help others.

          11. theletterafterj says:

            As an empath, I encourage people to pursue their interests; I wouldn’t criticize (belittling) them. Learning is always a good thing.

            That’s my POV.

          12. Witch says:

            I’ve just watched his video “surviving the female narcissist” it’s very confusing.
            He says that women want a “bad boy” and because they feel they shouldn’t want a “bad boy” they project that onto men, accusing them of being bad because that’s what they really desire…
            Then at the end he concluded that if you’re depressed, you need to do something meaningful in order to increase your serotonin levels…
            He went off talking about loads of different things and trying to join them together. He said that psychopaths feel shame… do they!?
            He also mentioned that he’s been accused of being narcissistic, well!

          13. HG Tudor says:

            You do not need such material, it lacks insight, clarity and fails to provide understanding.

            This place gives you the only information you require.

          14. Witch says:

            Sorry HG I did not mean to provoke your jealousy 😆
            You are right though I don’t need it.
            I watched it out of curiosity, since I suspect that RG might be a mid-ranger and he was using a white board in the video, so I knew it was going to be good in a bad way.

          15. HG Tudor says:

            You did not. I am being accurate as usual.

          16. Witch says:

            Of course

          17. K says:

            Narcsite is the best place in the world for information regarding NPD.

          18. HG Tudor says:

            I know and thank you.

          19. K says:

            His video“surviving the female narcissist” sounds like a shit show! I don’t know much about shame or psychopaths, however, I can understand why people may think that RG is narcissistic.

          20. Cat says:

            … and @Witch seems to be right about Grannon. I was hoping that he was an empath probably because I was so invested. Had checked out his youtube for years! But yeah, always thought he had a Stone Ages view of women. And that is actually a red flag in itself.

            Back to my drawing desk I go.

          21. Violetta says:

            I’m pretty sure my evil Auntie, the Mid-rAngels at school, and Wanna-Be Playuh-Narc had absolutely no idea they were Narcissists.

            The first two thought they were wonderful people. As for the last, he fancied himself quite the stud, but if a real ladies’ man knew that this loser spent months staring at me, accidentally brushing up against me, bantering with me, and then (when we went on to other jobs) making hang-up calls which I now suspect were one-handed, and did all this rather than bang me–the real thing would laugh in his face.

            It all makes sense now. He revealed he wanted to win over a reluctant girl. Well, if I like him back, he doesn’t get to assert control, does he?

            A few years later, he was trying to take my picture and get footage for a “making-of” documentary on the set of a short film our editor made–I was an extra in a club scene and was all bimbo’d up. The editor steered him away before he could start a conflict. Like Fred Clegg in The Collector, he wanted the images rather than me because they wouldn’t answer him back.

            Sometimes, calling someone a Wanker isn’t just an all-purpose insult. I suspect a lot of guys who prefer porn to real women not because the boobs are bigger or the performers pretend to swallow, but because they must have control–and they don’t have a clue that they’re Narcissists. The wife is frigid, or her post-baby stretch marks turn him off, etc. Couldn’t be him.
            Then he’s off to the local strip club to gawp at women who have to.pretend they like him if they want those cash tips.

          22. Violetta says:


            Well, that is definitely more convincing than rebutting your counter-arguments with alternative explanations or examples. Quite the orator there. Could Socrates do any better?

          23. MB says:

            Vaknin was rude to me on IG when I asked him a question once. Later I noticed that comments were disappearing if they were not either agreeing with or praising him. I asked him about the disappearing comments and my comment disappeared. I stopped following him. (Controlled my own behavior) He’s a baby tyrant. We cannot learn from him except by examples of his behavior.

            HG has more emotional intelligence in his right pinky toenail than SV does in his entire body.

          24. HG Tudor says:

            Thankyou MB. I am also far more effective at asserting control.

          25. MB says:

            And controlling fury!!

          26. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed, MB, indeed.

          27. WhoCares says:

            “I asked him about the disappearing comments and my comment disappeared.”

          28. Violetta says:

            I have noticed that too. If it’s a genuine question, HG answers it. If it’s a genuine disagreement, HG goes over the reasoning behind his points.

            And if someone just wants to be a prat, HG can be very permissive about it.

            I think many of the posts he’s allowed through are proof positive that a significant number of Narcissists do not know what they are, or they wouldn’t be so eager to have the webiverse know they’re dipshits.

          29. HG Tudor says:


          30. kel says:

            I don’t think Sam is a social butterfly as HG is, or cares to be. HG has wisely built up a following, and has put in as much or more of his time in speaking with us and counseling us and making sure we understand correctly, as he has in writing his articles. It’s too amazing, and I hope he achieves widespread recognition for it one day. BTW, I can’t find a synonym for the word Hope, lol. I desire, or wish just don’t cut it.

          31. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you Kel.

          32. Violetta says:

            Vaknin may have the intelligence and self-awareness of a greater, but he doesn’t appear to have much of the manipulative charm. His bullying actually sounds almost lesser.

            This may have nothing to do with level of Narcissist, though. We’ve already seen that some highly educated people can be narcy lesser thugs, so I suppose someone who sounds frankly ill-bred could be a greater.

            I may be misdirected, because it seems that most of the mid-rangers I’ve encountered were middle-class and of medium intelligence. They are neither intelligent enough to be like Daisy’s ” bone-idle” Onslow, who’s into Open University and gets quite philosophical at times, nor are they like Monty Python’s upper-class twits whose connections can protect them, to some extent, from the consequences of insulting waiters and backing cars into old ladies. They’re middle-of-the-road, of middling competence, and a frightening number of them teach Middle School.

          33. Cat says:

            I feel empathy CoD feels on Richard G. He seems unwittingly drawn to greaters, like Pierre maybe. And Sam. Richard taught me a lot from Youtube. HG started Narcsite just those months.

            Another male empath was Scott from Understanding Narcissists. Helpful.

            I sense that vloggers who show their face can’t be as honest, helpful and scientific as HG Tudor can. Because narcs and lieutenants left right and centre have their eyes on them.

          34. Witch says:

            Regarding his relationship with SV, that’s also a sign of a Mid-Ranger.
            I don’t get Codependent vibes from him at all. He seems quite self assured.

          35. Cat says:

            Reflected on your thought and yes I find it very weird that Richard G hangs out with and quotes so many influencers with NPD in his youtube teachings.
            Pierre, T Grande, Vaknin, Eckhart Tolle, Jordan Peterson.
            (I hope at least S Zizek the philosopher is a nonnarc)
            Doesn’t RG feel heaps of cognitive dissonance talking about narcissistic abuse as his main subject?

  5. Isabel says:

    Hi TUDOR,do you think there is a kind of narcisist that likes throgh mind ganes,destroy, broke and sabotage ex love sex adicts ?.Narcisist that detect empowered empathics ?Thank you

    1. HG Tudor says:


      1. Isabel says:

        Where can I find more information about that point?what boletin you recomend me?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          We have corresponded an addressed the matter.

  6. ibusaprincess says:

    I have learnt so much about narcissists

    1. HG Tudor says:

      That is because you are in the place to do so, IBP.

  7. Pingback: To Control Is To Cope : Narcissism and Its Creation ⋆ NarcTopia
  8. Kel says:

    It is amazing and exciting that narcissism may be the last stop before aspergers, which is the last stop before autism. There are so many similarities with the first two, with brain scans, with a lack of empathy, and they are both high-functioning and not visibly noticeable. They both perhaps lack Theory of Mind, to understand that others think different thoughts than they do. They have a similar range of emotions. They have striking abilities- and that explains what I’ve always noticed with narcs, they are really good at anything they do. I asked my narc mother once to sketch a picture, without saying a word, she picked up the pencil, looking at a photo in the newspaper, made swirly movements for about 60 seconds and took her hand away- and my mouth dropped open because it was excellent, it looked just like the man in the photo, she still didn’t say anything and just went on to whatever she had been doing. My mother didn’t draw, she didn’t practice with it.

    Narcissism and Aspergers are both genetic, and autistic spectrum people might not have an autistic parent, but they will often have a narcissist parent. Which also explains why one child is a narcissist and the other is an empath, growing up in the same household and circumstances.

    It puts a new perspective on interacting with a narcissist, and their need for control. We can have theory of mind to understand that they don’t think like we do. I’ve looked on them before as being insane, when they get angry all of a sudden, for example, but now I can actually see it as a physical and not a mental disorder. Dangerous though, none the less.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Narcissism is not the last stop before Aspergers or the penultimate stop before autism. It is considerably different. Your comment is repeatedly inaccurate, Kel.

      1. Not all narcissists are high functioning. See Lower Echelon Narcissists.
      2. We do not have a similar range of emotions to those with Aspergers or Autism.
      3. Mid Range and Greater do not like Theory of Mind.
      4. Not all narcissists are “really good at anything they do.”
      5. Narcissism is not purely genetic.
      6. It is not a physical disorder.

      1. Lorelei says:

        Thank you for the clarification on Aspergers/Autism. It’s a common correlation. I know that with my son his emotional content is (at times) expressed differently, but I believe he has a full spectrum of emotion. I don’t want to send people out into the world that just make those closest to them miserable. He is very bright and will have a normal capacity to excel because he’s only quite mild—which means marrying & having a family is absolutely in the cards.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.

        2. Violetta says:

          I know a couple of Aspies (STEM majors, usually) who have trouble expressing their own emotions and interpreting those of others, but that doesn’t mean they don’t have the first or care about the second.

          When narcissists care about the second, it is only so they can manipulate people more effectively.

          People who’ve grown up in abusive situations may have an especially hard time learning what is and isn’t normal, not least if they are isolated from other kids’ families. I had to learn a certain amount of cognitive empathy through doing theatre and being trained by patient neighbors’ dogs who realized this human puppy needed some work. The Freudian Mid-rAngels had done such a number on me that I did not trust any of my emotions until I saw them in characters and realized maybe I was human after all. I had given up.on socializing after pedagogic Mid-rAngels sabotaged and terrorized me in the name of Helping, but dogs taught me a few basic greeting rituals and kept practicing with me until I could perform them competently. I was not at all a good listener, but when I heard a recording of a class debate and realized that I was interrupting people and shouting them down just like my dad did, I was devastated and had to learn to restrain myself.

          One of the most valuable things I’ve learned from Narcsite is the way narcs will provoke non-narcs into lashing back, then announce triumphantly, “See, I told you x was a narcissist!” I wonder how many kids grow up reproached for being Narcissists because they reacted to the unending putdowns by boasting that hey, I can do X or I have the latest Y. The Experts refuse to recognize the provocation and see the defensive actions as the cause, not the effect. They’re not defending themselves; they’re Conceited, and need taking down a peg or two! I know: let’s put them down some more, tell them that we know they’ve been trying, but it’s still not enough! They could do better if they TRIED.

          Though they are most vulnerable, it’s not just kids, because we read about Significant Others doing it all the time. How many adults start out reasonably competent at managing professional and private life, and then a Narc destroys all their self-esteem?

          I suspect I developed a lot of Narcissistic characteristics for survival, but I’m pretty sure now I’m not a full Narc. As HG has said, it’s like being a little bit pregnant–either you are or you aren’t.

          How do I know? Because I would be devastated if I learned I had destroyed a student’s career or sense of self-worth through ill-advised actions–even if it was a student who got on my nerves. A Greater would feel no regret, and a Mid-ranger was Trying to Help, and if it didn’t Help, it must be the student’s fault.

      2. Whitney says:

        Narcissism: low emotional empathy.

        Aspergers: low cognitive empathy.

        Autism: low cognitive empathy and IQ below 70.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Just to clarify, Whitney, narcissism, no emotional empathy.

          I understand that you can have high functioning autism where the intellectual impairment is absent.

          Thank you for the comparison.

          1. Whitney says:

            Thank you HG the God, for making clear that narcissists have no emotional empathy rather than low emotional empathy.

            I used the wrong word.

            Hope, Aspergers and Autism are different. People diagnosed with ‘Aspergers’ have an IQ above 70. People diagnosed with ‘Autism’ have an IQ below 70. So your sister doesn’t have ‘Autism/Aspergers’. She has Aspergers.

          2. Whitney says:

            Sorry i think I’m wrong about IQ and aspergers/autism diagnosis.

            I learnt it in my psychology degree 10-years ago but I think the diagnosis criteria has changed.

          3. Hope says:

            So sad to learn they teach that. Further evidence to support my mistrust of doctors and psychologists etc. Even if they know better they can’t practice better because it’s not sanctioned and in black and white.

          4. FYC says:

            Whitney and Hope, Your conversation intrigued me so I did a quite search and found a recent study that states, “These findings indicate that alleles for autism overlap broadly with alleles for high intelligence, which appears paradoxical given that autism is characterized, overall, by below-average IQ. This paradox can be resolved under the hypothesis that autism etiology commonly involves enhanced, but imbalanced, components of intelligence.” It is also accurate that high IQ correlates with Aspergers. So a high IQ can exist in either, just expressed in different ways.

            Interestingly, there are no really useful studies I could find on narcissism and IQ. This is due to the fact that the studies (I read) use questionable measures on narcissism and use self report methods, then correlate these with IQ results. Even in studies that used multiple narcissism factors, the IQ scores covered a range and the only commonality was that Ns tend to over-estimate and exaggerate their IQ performance.

        2. Hope says:

          Whitney—My sister is very, very smart and she has autism/aspergers. I’m not sure where 70 is on a scale but she’s much smarter than the average person. She is often more intelligent than her professors. She is also the contagion empath. She feels the emotions of others. She absorbs their energy and is working with someone (energy healer? Reiki?) to learn methods to guard her energy. She doesn’t read facial expressions easily and has trouble understanding direction often taking people literally. It is complex because she senses the tone of my voice and it’s emotional implication easily. She’s nothing like a narcissist. The furthest thing from it.

          1. Lorelei says:

            Hope—70 on the IQ scale is about where HG falls! Haha. Haha

          2. Hope says:

            Lol. I have no benchmark. But since you are laughing …I am guessing this is provocation.

          3. Lorelei says:

            It was in response to autism having an IQ under 70. What a load of manure. This stuff gets confusing I know.. It’s like diabetes in a way. (This autism/narcissism correlation) Type 1 and 2 diabetes are quite different but they have parallels so it can be a process to wade through many developmental issues if you have to understand it.

        3. sunnybeinsunshine says:

          I know quite a few hundred Autistics …many who have PHDs..MAs and BAs..some are therapists some are engineers..some are computer scientists etc etc.can we please stop circulating misinformation about Autistics.
          Aspergers diagnosis no longer exists.Many Aspies who were given the label have disowned it since learning Hans Asperger-whom it was named after sent many Autistics to their deaths in the concentration camps who would want to proudly walk around with that label? They now identify as Autistic.The only reason it was given as a diagnosis other than Autism was because the child in question didnt have late onset of language/had precocious language-that was the only distinction.Nothing to do with intelligence.The diagnosis` have now been merged into Autistic (ASD/C only.Just like Neurotypicals Autistics are just Autistic with different levels of need …the same as Neurotypicals.
          IQ tests in relation to Autists are meaningless and biased.The tests are designed and standardised for Neurotypicals and therfeore cannot test the IQ of those who are Neurodivergent..their brains are wired differently..they think differently and the majority of the tests are therfore inaccessible to Autistics so the results arent representative of their intelligence at all.The tests are in effect useless.

      3. kel says:

        My comment isn’t about accuracies as much as it is about possibilities. It doesn’t come from me, but from interesting articles I’ve read, and I added my own observations I’ve had with narcissists I know. Nothing is ever ‘all’.

        Dr. Susan Heitler, PH.D. wrote an article “Do You Think Of Autism As An Autistic Spectrum Disorder? “Of course not!” you might say dismissively. Not so fast. Better think again.” It’s something she is starting to study.

        1. High functioning: I mean it in the sense that narcissism isn’t an obvious condition that is visually noticeable. They carry on like everyone else, until you realize that’s not a sheep, it’s a wolf.

        2. Similar range of feelings as Aspergers. Their feelings are anger, fear, joy. I don’t know anyone with Aspergers (maybe one now that I’m learning about it), so what I’ve read has come from articles from doctors and others. They also have Self-Centeredness, Poor Self-Awareness regarding poor ability to develop Remorse, Poor Empathy to appreciate others feelings, Hostile Dependency on safe relations, Failure to develop Emotional Relationships appropriate to social norms, Treating People as Objects, or preferring objects to people.

        3. Theory of Mind: To understand that others have thoughts that differ from your own. I said that autism spectrum and narcissism are lacking in that ability.

        4. That’s true that not “all” narcissists are good at everything. That was a general observation I’ve had with the narcissists I’ve known. It’s something I’ve noticed personally, and have wondered about in the back of my mind. Aspergers seems to focus all their energy on one subject and be excellent at it. To me, it seems narcissists focus on every subject they take on, to be good at it. Definitely nothing ever includes all or everyone.

        5. Genetic: Aspergers is not purely genetic either. It is thought that environmental aspects feature into it too- from what I’ve read.

        6. Physical disorder: Narcissism and Aspergers have similar brain scans, and that’s what I mean about physical. It’s not insanity, as it sometimes looks like to me, as it’s the brain controlling the thought process.

        1. Lorelei says:

          So much inaccuracy out there—just like with narcissism. Autism is not an emotional impairment or intellectual hindrance in isolation. Or Aspergers. Many of those that express emotions with such a diagnosis appear narcissistic, and some (will) may be—but it’s just not good information. It’s not about “taking up for” my son. It’s just about dispelling generalizations. He’s at the top of his class and he expresses the full range of emotion afforded a normal person. I just hate information that forms disparaging views. Almost like clinical staff rolling their eyes when they see a “borderline” diagnosis. Some of the patients are indeed not the painful generalization and yet—treated as such.

          1. kel says:

            Hi Lorelei

            I don’t think it’s a put down at all. I like the person I suspect might have aspergers very much, and there’s not an evil bone in his body. He has a strange way of not conveying his emotions, but he’s got them. His mother is similar to him, but his brother is completely different and doesn’t have that. I wouldn’t change a thing about him, I like him the way he is, it’s just what makes him, him.

            I think there is a possibility that there is a genetic link though that puts narcissism in the same spectrum. They’re different but have similarities. I think it’s exciting because it helps me to understand it and accept it better, and to view narcissism in a kinder and healthier way- from a distance of course.

          2. Lorelei says:

            I know Kel—I understand it’s not a put down. What I am saying is that it is an egregious error to make correlations that are often even bearing similar features when it can be disparaging to those suffering by further spreading misinformation. People read information as factual, assume the name of a psychologist is valid and myths flourish. I am board certified in mental health and psychiatric nursing. I could say things about about psychopaths and have a platform of spreading misinformation appearing relevant to young students. So, then, these students are potentially even afraid to care for those with psychopathy. It can impact their experience and patient care. A reader here sees it—looks up the psychologist you mentioned and sees Harvard in her CV. Well then—she must know! Nope! She has not based this correlation on evidence based research and is not articulating herself in a manner that is therefore medically sound. She knows better. The life of a PhD is assimilation of evidence—not a careless correlation that allows inaccurate information to gain life.

          3. Kristin says:

            Well said as always. My Asperger’s son has more empathy in his little finger than his narc father could ever have and is a very tender soul. It breaks my heart to see him struggle, but I wouldn’t trade him for the world. Thank you for your professional knowledge, it is greatly appreciated.

          4. Lorelei says:

            Thanks Kristin. My real issue is actually with the woman’s credentials. Psychology Today is not a peer review journal and she is welcome to comment in it, write articles, etc. Indeed, she is Harvard and NYU educated. We know she is not a drooling idiot. But she is incredibly irresponsible. And if I had the interest I would have no problem staying this to her. She has an education that has irrefutably advised her on how to assimilate evidence. She can have thoughts absolutely but I read somewhere she cited some other psychiatrists work and he is poorly published, his work barely cited in other journals, and I read his article as she used some of his work to form and support her views. I read his article. It was not evidence based, it was appropriate for him to write what he did because he didn’t state it as any sort of research, more a proposal of a model. It was not interesting enough for me to articulate more than this. I also recognize I may be influenced by irritation. What is essential though is that she has a responsibility to not advocate for ideas that are incorrect in mainstream publications. The general public is not educated on how research is generated/synthesized. Guess who is? A Harvard PhD! Shame on her really. Before any correlation of these conditions can be suggested it would require an analysis of peer reviewed materials to even be thrust into practical consideration. Peer review materials with high levels of evidence on an evidence hierarchy as well. Not random and unfortunate musings of a “professional.”
            A good alternate example is Dr. Drew. He has a huge audience. He uses it responsibly in terms of his medical discussions/information remaining accurate. Sanjay Gupta. Same. They both have in the past decade or longer used their platforms to provide reasonably sound information. (Granted—Dr. Drew has been criticized of exposing people, but has he? They expose themselves in a way..) I have a very similar responsibility under a scope of practice. I can’t be perceived as responsibility educating these young men and woman in my work environment by (for example) discussing narcissism now that I have many thoughts on it. I can’t. Period. It’s not peer reviewed research and not mainstream didactic material. I can describe behaviors and throw the term “abusive” out—people can be enlightened if they interpret the information in a manner of being provided appropriately. Readers here can also discuss what they wish and read whatever they want. I found HG’s work luckily from a FB support site. That’s not mainstream! BUT—I also felt staying quiet was a disservice to those impacted by these disorders. Same as I may correct someone trying to understand type 1 diabetes but reading about type 2. It’s a professional courtesy really.

      4. kel says:

        Ugh, Correction : Susan Heitler’s article is Do you think of NARCISSISM as an autistic spectrum “ Lol, not – do you think of Autism as an autistic spectrum- my typing oops.

      5. Gina says:

        Ack! I have a 20-year-old daughter with Asperger’s and was married to her father who has NPD for 23 years. My son and I are both empaths. Talk about a cluster f*** of a house. My need to help my daughter caused me to finally figure out what was wrong with her father. All four of us have IQ’s in the 130s and 140s. Her autism does not include cognitive impairment. There are many many differences between her and her father. Unfortunately she is now living with him has taken my place and I believe her Asperger’s has caused her to be the perfect victim for him.

        1. Kristin says:

          I have been married to my ULN for 28 years, have a very intelligent daughter (16) and a son with Asperger’s (23, high functioning & an empath) as well. We have our own cluster fuck just as you do and when you have a child with special needs it complicates matters even more. My daughter, ironically, began calling him out on his behavior a few years ago and that is what it took for me to open my eyes.
          I cannot imagine how difficult it is for you now that she is living with her narc father, I am so sorry. You sound like you are very strong and obviously intelligent, I wish you the best in your situation.

        2. Lorelei says:

          Gina—I’m sorry to hear this. AND her condition likely coupled with being an empath allows his violation of her emotions to be manipulated. Which further thrusts the concept of a correlation between narcissism and these issues out the window.

      6. kel says:

        One thing that I see on this thread, is the number of times there are narcissists and Asperger’s, and autistic’s in the same family, which would lend to the question of a genetic link.

        1. Hope says:

          The chaotic environment is what stands out to me. The application that shows the expression of the genes 🧬 . You won’t see multiple disorders in normal families because the environmental factor is missing, suppressing the expression of the disordered genes.

          1. Witch says:

            @Hope and @kel
            Do “normal” families exist?
            As far as I’m aware most people have someone (or more) in their family who is disabled, suffers from a mental illness or has a PD.
            It’s very difficult to maintain a controlled environment for children. Certain things can happen out of the parents control. Children still need freedom and to be able to socialise with others and that comes with risks.
            I think trying to find a link with narcissism and other disorders so you can humanise narcissism is ET.
            What difference will it really make? If we say some autistic people display certain characteristics similarly to narcissists such as aggressive behaviour. How is that going to help you to accept narcissism for what it is when the causes might be vastly different? if narcissism is on the autistic spectrum, then is BPD and psychopathy also on the autistic spectrum?
            Narcissism can not be on the autistic spectrum because not all autistic people lack empathy and a lot of their behavioural problems may be due to an inability to express themselves verbally and having other learning disabilities.
            All narcissists have no emotional empathy and require fuel. There are significant distinctions.

          2. mommypino says:

            Hi Hope, I agree with you that several disorders tend to appear in toxic families and that the abusive or LOC environment is expressing the genes. In the case of Autism and Asperger’s though, they are not caused by bad parenting or lack of control environment.

          3. MommyPino says:

            I remember reading though that there a person’s personality trait is affected by multiple genes (polygenic). For example a person’s tendency to be more prone to addiction is because of several genes and not just one ‘addiction’ gene. So NPD is highly likely to be caused by several genes as well and there is a possibility that one or a few of those genes are also linked to what causes Autism. That doesn’t make it the last stop before Autism or Aspergers though. NPD has to have Lack of Control Environment to be able to develop while Autism and Aspergers do not.

      7. mommypino says:

        Perfectly accurate HG. My mom was a narcissist and I love her to death but she was bad at almost everything she did. My MR sister had high IQ, both her and our brother qualified for Mensa when they were young. But because of our sister’s narcissism, she didn’t strive to develop a lot of her talents when the process of developing them required hard work with not a lot of instant gratification. Our Normie brother on the other hand is always very low profile and a quiet achiever.

  9. Christopher Jackson says:

    This is one of the most POWERFUL pieces you have ever written to me… I mean it is up there at number 1…if there was an oscar that could be given for all of the FUCKRY in one peice of literature this would be the one hands down on narcissism. Great one HG

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you CJ, I accept that Oscar!

      1. Violetta says:

        You can tell HG is an Ultra, because he doesn’t go through that mid-range virtue-signalling hypocrisy of Thanking All The Little People.
        (After lecturing us on the environment. Or cows.)

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