Blind or Stupid




We love to triangulate. Three is the magic number. You, me and someone else or something else. Another victim? A competitor? A loyal lieutenant? A fresh prospect? An imaginary individual? A threatened event? An inanimate object? There are so many combinations of triangulation that are available to us and each has their own advantages and rewards for their application for us. In this equation there will always be us, there will always be you and then there will be third party.

One of our effective manipulative triangulations involves the “normals”. These are people who are neither empathic or narcissistic but people who are generally decent, sensible and largely kind who may be supporters of yours, they may be members of our façade but whatever they are they are not you and they are not us. These are the people who you turn to when you can no longer stand what is happening to you. When you cannot understand what is going on.

When the confusion becomes overwhelming. When you begin to sense something is not quite right. You turn to these normal in the hope of them helping you, understanding your plight and/or offering some insight. This is rarely achieved because you are met with responses which leave you wondering whether the person you have just spoken to is blind or stupid. Here are ten instances of this in action.

  1. I don’t believe it

Victim – “He is horrible to me, he never lets me do anything on my own anymore, he shouts and calls me awful names.”

Normal – “Really? I just can’t see Nigel behaving like that, he is always so lovely and friendly whenever I see him. I cannot believe he would do that.”

  1. Are You Bringing It On Yourself?

V – “I am sick of him controlling me. I try and assert myself, you know, lay down some boundaries, but he is always telling me to shut up and calm down and doing what he wants without any consideration for me.”

N – “Well you have always been feisty my dear, maybe you are provoking him and that’s why he is behaving that way. I don’t mean to be unkind but you do have a bit of temper you know.”

  1. Not This Again

V- “He has done it again. Disappeared. I have been ringing him on the hour every hour and he won’t answer. I don’t know what it is. I mean, everything seemed okay when we got up this morning, he smiled and asked me if I wanted a cup of tea (cue detailed analysis of every word and interaction thereafter)

N – Glazes over, thinks to themselves “Not this again. I am bored of hearing this. They will be talking again by tomorrow. She worries over nothing.”

  1. I Feel Sorry for Him

V – “So he did this, then that, then this again and he always does this you know. He is horrible, Horrible I tell you. I don’t know what to do. Oh he did this as well and some more of that.”

N – Thinks to themselves “I feel sorry for him putting up with someone so neurotic as her. No wonder he clears off for a few days, probably needs the peace and quiet.”

  1. Someone Is Exaggerating


V – “No word of a lie, he locked me in the bedroom and threatened to burn the house down with me inside and I heard him laughing as he said this to me. I am so scared of him. He keeps threatening to kill me. He rings me at work and comments about how my brakes are dodgy and laughs and puts the ‘phone down.”

N – Thinks to themselves “Sure he does, nobody goes on like that, I do like my friend but she is something of an attention seeker. Every other day there is one of these stories.”

  1. I Don’t Think So

V – “So he said that if I didn’t do it he would tell everybody in the church that I was sleeping with the vicar and he would post pictures of me on the internet.”

N – “Who Norman? No way, he is such a solid and respectable man. I don’t think he would ever do anything like that. No, I have known him years, he would never do anything like that.”

  1. He Did Say She Was Crazy

V – “He hides my purse so I cannot go out, he tells me what I can and cannot eat, he won’t allow me more than a minute in the shower and stands watching me while I wash. He follows me around the house and keeps staring at me, I can even feel him watching me when I manage to slip out for a while. I know he is following me.”

N- Thinks to themselves “It’s just as Neil predicted. He said she was losing her mind and coming out with all these fantastic stories. He is genuinely worried about her and I can see why now. Poor thing. Poor him too.”

  1. Ups and Downs

V – “He sometimes doesn’t speak to me for days on end. He just sits and sulks and ignores me. It is horrible. I hate it.”

N- “Oh that’s just men for you. They all do that at some point. It’s part of the ups and downs of being in a relationship, just ignore it and get on with your day, he will soon come round, you will see.”

  1. Don’t Involve Me

V- “Hi it’s me, can I come round to see you. I need to talk to someone. He is doing it again. He has spent the last two hours shouting at me and throwing plates around the kitchen. I am sick of this, I cannot cope.”

N – “I’d love to help but I er, have an appointment. Look I have to go; I will call you later” – I’m not getting drawn into their domestic dramas I have my own life to look after.

  1. I Haven’t a Clue

V- (After lengthy description of a catalogue of odd and strange behaviour) “So what do you think, what should I do? I cannot go on like this.”

N- “I don’t know what to say really, I can’t work out why he would be lovely with you one week and then awful the next, it does add up. Perhaps if you sat down together and tried to work things out.” (I haven’t a clue what is going on here.)

Not once does the “normal” turn to you and say,

“You are being abused by a disordered person.”


“You have been ensnared by a narcissist.”

Instead when you describe the behaviour to a “normal” you are met with one or more of the responses detailed above. We know this will be the case. We know it will leave you hurt, bewildered and lacking the help and insight you so desperately need. Why do people respond like this?

  1. Lack of knowledge. Fortunately for our kind few people really know what we are and what we do.
  2. We don’t walk around with a sign around our neck stating “I am an abusive narcissist”. We blend in. People think the psychopaths and sociopaths appear like some crazed axe-murderer. We do not.
  3. People although kind are not empathic like you. Therefore, there is a limit to the time and resource they will apply to assisting you. People are inward looking and care more about their own lives than yours.
  4. The façade. Our charm and magnetism has people believing us to be wonderful and decent people. That façade is hard to shatter.
  5. Your coping abilities are eroded and you are worn out. This makes you appear unhinged, hysterical and thus in keeping with the image that we have spread around that you are The Crazy One.
  6. A Quiet Life. People do not like conflict. They want people to get on and do not want to become involved in other people’s problems.
  7. Behind Closed Doors. People always take the view that there are two sides to every story. They will listen to you but they will think there is likely to be some explanation which means it is not as bad as you are making it out to be. You are provoking the abuser, you are making it up, you are being too sensitive and taking things the wrong way. The “normal” thinks life may be different behind closed doors.
  8. People want other people to get on and therefore in order to try to preserve the peace they will suggest that the behaviour is not as bad as has been suggested and pressure the victim to go home and sort things out, unaware it is not something that can be sorted out by having a chat and a cup of tea.
  9. The tales of abuse and awful treatment seem far-fetched that the “normal” cannot believe them. They have no experience of it and combined with the existence of the façade just cannot see how someone could behave in this way.

All of this results in you trying to persuade people without success which becomes all the more frustrating and distressing for you. Naturally, we know fine well how people will respond to your protestations and the lack of understanding and knowledge about our kind allows us to blend in, move freely around and continue to behave in this manner with impunity. You are left wondering if the listener is blind or stupid. They are not stupid. But they are blinded to what we really are.

Just like you were as well.

182 thoughts on “Blind or Stupid

  1. narcsurvivor030414 says:

    My narc loved to embarrass me in front of people. He always did it in a joking way such as walking by me and flipping me off as he was laughing or trying trip me as I walked by or one time telling me to shut up. No one ever said anything to him. They would just ignore it. He had everyone wrapped around his finger. There were so many times I wanted to tell everyone just how evil he was. I felt afraid of him never knowing what he would do if I stood up to him. Whenever we got into arguments he would have me so confused and emotionally beaten down that I would cave and apologize just to end the fighting. He always had to win and once when he saw how defeated I was he would smile.

  2. E&L says:


    I respect your approval of our current President, however, I do not agree. But, neither of us needs to defend our positions because it is not our responsibility to change one another’s mindset.

    Having said that, what I find striking in your written dialogue with HG are the following: 1) Your defense of our current President is always a diss of his past or present political opponents, rather than discussing actual quantifiable or qualifiable (more subjective) actions and responses Mr. Trump has taken. 2) Defending Mr. Trump’s reference to injecting disinfectant and claiming to not have seen the clip or read the full comment/suggestion is a dynamic that people use to distance themselves from accountability and the possibility that their conviction is inaccurate. It is a kind of confirmation bias; I am right and you are wrong because I did not see what you saw, therefore, I am absolved of responsibility to vet that data point.

    1. mommypino says:

      Hi E&L, I honestly didn’t see the video clip of a Trump saying that until after HG and I had a dialogue. I woke up the day before that and my FB was flooded with posts about that from both sides. I do not have cable and I tried to find the clip from my streaming service but I only saw the clip on him saying that it was a sarcastic remark. I gave up on looking for it and went about my day. I saw the posts about it from HG and other commenters in another thread which I have decided to not get involved in since I have not seen him say it. I have seen many instances where his words were twisted such as the false claim that he said that the Coronavirus is just a Democratic hoax. He did not say that. He knew that the virus was real from the start and that’s why he did the travel ban from China in spite of him just signing the trade deal with them a day before that and in spite of being called a racist for the travel ban by the liberal media and politicians. That is why I wasn’t sure if that was true. I watched the clip on YouTube prompted by my exchange with HG and this is how I saw it. Trump was looking at Dr. Birx and he was telling the media about the kinds of possible alternative treatments that they are trying to explore. It sounded like he was briefed about them before the conference but because he was not an expert, he used layman words and he explained the treatments in a way that he understood it but it was inaccurate. Instead of Trump admitting that he made a mistake or he was saying things that he didn’t understand, his narcissistic defense mechanism kicked in and said that he was just being sarcastic. That is how I saw and interpreted it. I didn’t hear him say to inject Lysol. I am not going to defend Trump on this as it is clear that he handled this poorly. And HG is correct that Trump’s narcissism and the kind of school and he is in affected the way he responded. But by saying that, some commenters question why I continue to support Trump and as stated by someone, Blind and Stupid is apt obviously referring to me, which is why I explain why the alternative politicians are not a better option for me. So that is where the criticisms on his opponents are coming from. Like I have said, I have never denied Trump’s narcissism and I have acknowledged a lot of his shortcomings but it doesn’t mean that I am blind or stupid for voting for him. This blog is supposed to be about narcissism, not a venue for inquisition on people who vote for Trump.

      1. HG Tudor says:


        1. Indeed it is not a venue for an inquisition about people who vote Trump but it is you who keeps running to his defence and making it political, rather than recognise that the comments made by me are with regard to his narcissism.
        2. It is very easy to find the clip and I see that you have now watched it and you have adopted my explanation as to his behaviour.

        1. mommypino says:

          Thank you HG but I wasn’t referring to you. I know that you are only concerned about his narcissism.

          1. HG Tudor says:


      2. E&L says:


        You are one of the first commenters I engaged with on this blog. I remember telling you how much I loved hearing your stories. Your relationships with your mom and sister were so relatable. You responded with appreciation as you were not sure all your experiences were expressed well. If my memory is inaccurate, forgive my skewed remembrance. I continue to read your comments and I think you are a very thought, intelligent, articulate commenter. I appreciate your honesty and passionate beliefs.

        This is why I said that you need not “defend” them to me or anyone else. When you become defensive you have entered the arena of emotional thinking. Perhaps, I only say this because I recognize it in myself. I am “outraged” on the daily by “this comment” or “that behavior”; but people get to say and do what they what within the confines of the law. Expecting or needing people to agree with, understand, or even care about anything I believe and/or do is only going to result in me feeling disappointed. I am reiterating this for myself: external affirmation and validation need not apply to my present wellbeing. I appreciate you helping me find clarity and comprehension.

        I think I just used our exchange for my own confirmation bias. I just fucking manipulated myself. Ha!

        I think you are wonderful Mommypino…and I still do not like Mr. Trump!!! Love to you!!!

        1. E&L says:

          And finally, by way of paying my respect to K for having taught this ludite (me) how to access information on the blog, I present to you, Mommypino, our past exchange:

          E&L says:
          November 2, 2018 at 14:04
          mommypino, I love reading your comments. Your stories are so relatable and validating. Thank you for sharing them.

          mommypino says:
          November 3, 2018 at 23:48
          Thank you E&L. Sometimes I am not sure if I’m conveying my stories clearly enough because English is just my second language. I’m glad that you like them. 💕

        2. mommypino says:

          Haha thank you E&L. Thank you for the excellent advice. Everything you said is true. You have explained it perfectly and I love the metaphor of entering an arena of emotional thinking once we get defensive and about external validation and affirmation not needing to be applied to my well being. That totally gave me a visual clarity on what happens to me and how I should look at things!

          I think that you are wonderful too and I am so glad to see you again commenting. I think that you may have taken a break from the blog as I have not seen comments from you for a while. Thank you for your encouragement and understanding. Love to you as well!!!!

  3. Oracle says:

    This was part of my prison. I felt so alone. If I tried to talk to someone about it, I ended up feeling foolish and turning things back on myself. I would convince myself that I was the problem. I thought I would change and then things would be better. Of course no change seemed to improve things. the smear campaign behind my back and my responses to his pushing buttons had made me appear unreasonable, and nuts to be honest. Even when he broke my jaw..People still viewed me as some crazy women that he had to smack. Crazy was a symptom of the relationship. One could not help but lose their mind. I am still trying to recover mine and then the world goes mad. We live in a world where people do not want their bubbles to be burst. They want to look the other way and not see the ugly in the world. If you confront them with such things well your toxic. These days I call bull shi%%t on people when they do that. Our world is in the mess it’s in, because of those that chose to look the other way and wait for someone else to fix it. I suppose I was guilty as well tho. That is true, I was. I don’t want to believe what was happening to me really was. this prison i wish on no one. M.

  4. Kim e says:

    Hi. Work day very slow today. But I guess it replaces the days I dont have time to go pee.

    I am happy for August as we (9 women) have rebooked our Vegas trip that was cancelled for April. We have a house from Airbnb and the price stayed the same. (We used the military mom card and got a discount in the beginning). My part of the house was paid for by a friend for a birthday present. And the airfare is free as a used points. When I first booked I only had enough points for 1 way and had to pay for the other. Now I had enough for the whole flight.

    Yes. I know it is a process. But I feel I am in a good place.
    As a matter of fact I am going to pat myself on the back and brag to you and HG that as I was working today, I opened a desk drawer that I do not use ofter. And what did I find in there but the train parking ticket that was placed on my car as a hoover 12/10/18. I allowed myself to go back to that day and a couple days after. I then took it and placed it in a can full of liquid going to the recycle bin. I then grinned to myself and gave myself a fist bump!!!!!! AAAAHHHH…the little wins.

    As always, I will say just be careful out there. They might resent complete;y different then MRN and then it is too late.

    WAHT? Jesus. that is awful. From what you have learned regarding N’s do you think this teach was one?
    Yea…I was sexually abused also. ( I have NEVER told anyone that.) They were family members and one of my mom’s boyfriends tried but by then I had had enought and tell him to get the F away from me or I would scream RAPE. I dont think he ever was over at out apartment again.
    So many child hood issues just coming to the forefront now. I have decided that mom was a N…not worth my money to run her thru a test. I think I was and maybe still am , looking for a father figure after dad was gone. I was 3. Did he abandon me? He followed the visitation schedule to a tee. Was that all he thought he had to do?

    Sorry….didnt mean to go off on this path.

    Are your kids still ok?


    1. SMH says:

      Kim e, Be careful about what? I missed something. I can hardly get in trouble when the only time I see people is outside on the street during the day!

      I am glad you have Vegas to look forward to – and a free trip at that! Is your job secure?

      I hope to be on a boat with my friends in August but who knows! I just want to get through the next few weeks at this point. I might leave early if the US opens up but the UK stays locked down because part of me thinks it’s stupid. They’ve killed so many people by either locking them down with their asymptomatic vector children or putting them in virus-ridden hospitals on lethal ventilators. I’ll take my chances out there in the world.

      My kids are fine, thanks. My son just had his birthday – memorable one, I am sure! My birthday is next week. It will also be memorable. I think I’ll just sleep all day. Nope. Have five hours of meetings.

      As for your ET – yes you should congratulate yourself for being able to put that memento right in the trash. Letting go of physical things is a huge step!

      I am sorry to hear what you went through as a child. I don’t remember enough about the teacher except from what other people say, that he was abusive to girls in the classroom. The thing with me happened at a friend’s wedding right after I had graduated early, so I was young. Except for that incident and one other with a guy whose car I should not have gotten into, nothing terrible happened to me. I escaped the car before it got really bad but I do remember thinking that my father would kill me – would tell me I was stupid to get into the car. Maybe I am looking for a father figure too even though mine was there. Maybe you don’t know everything that went on between your parents. If your mom was an N, could she have threatened your father somehow with legal action if he veered from the schedule? What did you two do together when you did see each other? It’s fine to talk about it here. You should talk about it here – it is all connected to our entanglements with Ns.


      1. Kim e says:

        Be careful with Odin, the doctor and all the others on the dating sites. Just dont want you to get lost in that world again. And as you know at the point where I am in my recovery…they are all N’s….lol

        Yes. My job is secure.

        I will stay home for 6 more months if they tell me it iwll solve the issue but the assholes are starting to come out and demonstrate already because the govenment is taking away their rights. I say bite me and fuck off. Maybe, just maybe if we really knew what was up in China it would help know what happens after a certain amount of time but we never will as they could have had it for 6 mornths earlier than they admitted.

        Happy Birthday!!! Lets set a time where we can both toast each others birthdays as mine was last week. Maybe this weekend so if with the time difference I am drinking at 4:00 in the morning, I can take a nap at 7…LOL

        I really dont know the interactions of the P’s. I was 3 when they divorced and then basically raised by my Grandmother, aunt and uncle. We saw each other on the required holidays, and 1 weeka year in the summer during school break. I dont remember any birthday stuff with him. Maybe a couple vacations other than the 1 week. I have 3 step brothers and sisters. My brother ( 5 years younger) quit talking to me a 5 or 6 years ago when I called him an ass. The middle sister (8 years younger) always was jealous because I was older and got to do thing with HER mom like stay up and watch movies. We talk if we are int he same room but dont go out of our way. I remember calling her once regarding a graduation party I was planning for my oldest. We lived in different states and I wanted to give her a heads up. I left her a message. Well instead of calling me back, she called my other sister and asked “what does Kim want”?
        Then there is my little sister (10 years younger). She is the go between for all of us. But i am not considered part of her “family”. He family is her kids, mom, brohter, sister, in-laws. She says I have a family (meaning me and my boys) and she has a family. When dad died, I guess i was excluded from her “family”. Not sure how that works as it makes no sense to me at all. I get invioted to more places by my BIL’s family then I do her.
        I really have thought for years about just writing them all off. The only time I am good enough is for showers and weddings.

        I could go on and on and on ………..

        That is enough of Kim’s world for the time being. Too depressing.

        How is work N? Have not heard about him in forever.


        1. SMH says:

          Hey Kim e, Happy belated birthday! Let’s do celebrate if HG will allow it (he doesn’t like birthdays). Wish we at least had Zoom!

          Work narc is home with his family in a regional city. He seems fine. We’ve only had one one-on-one. We still joke but I am afraid Odin displaced him!

          The doctor is not the least bit N. Somewhat dorky with his science stuff (he sends me all of these technical articles that I do not understand) but very kind. I know who both he and Odin are, where they live, their phone numbers. Matters to me because of what I went through with MRN. But I am also quite aware that I don’t know either of them.

          Odin has N qualities but isn’t a full blown N (might be a bit of a somatic but hey, he’s got a great body – I’m not complaining). No indication of the things HG warns about. He doesn’t badger me, discuss material things, or send dick pics. He’s only sent one pic, and that was last week. I’ve only sent one too. Neither explicit (mine was in the laundromat!). He has mostly respected that I won’t sext. He must be getting something else out of it or he would have ended it. Either of us could but I think we’ll hang in there. We discussed it just last week.

          Seem to finally be past the COVID peak here, though a lot of people are still dying. No crazy protests but there is pressure on the govt, such as it is (centralized system so you don’t have governors making their own decisions). Really feeble governance with that clown BoJo still ‘recovering,’ not that it would be better with him. So little PPE that not only are medical personnel dying but dentists cannot practice and people are having to pull out their own teeth. Can you believe it?!

          I get a lot of info from the doctor – all the treatments and vaccine trials. I don’t think it would make a difference even if we knew what was happening in China. However, the doc did say that it’s not temp and humidity but UV rays that kill the virus, and those are strongest in the summer so I am optimistic that within a month or two, at least in the northern hemisphere, we’ll at least have a respite. Eventually there will be treatments and a vaccine. I don’t think it’s terrible that people want to go to the beach. They should be able to as long as they practice distancing.

          Yes, I remember about your family and your siblings. Mine aren’t too present either, though we do check in occasionally, usually when we have to discuss our parents. Don’t write off anyone just now. It’s not the time to make such weighty decisions. You strike me as pretty calm all things considered, except for the occasional spurt of ET, and of course HG is helping with that. It’s great that your job is secure. You also have your sons and us!!

          I must make dinner now and a donation to a NYC food bank. It’s hard to eat without thinking of the hunger that is stalking so many people in the world right now.


          1. Kim e says:

            SMH…HG will not allow it(unless we do a 3 some???!!! maybe))))) LOL as we can use video on Zoom or any of the others so we will just have to pick a time and toast each other. I believe you are 6 – 7 hours ahead of me. It is 3:30 PM here now. Not sure how . to coordinate.

            Gotta run to the bank. Later with more

          2. Kim e says:

            OK. as long as you feel comfortable with Odin and the doc. But you did say something about hitting the dating site again. So I am going to play mom here as I am old enough to be your mother…be careful. Mic drop,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

            The gov of Il is talking SIP into May. The mayor of Chicago is talking June. My boss says even if they open up stuff, our office will go in shifts as the majority of us are cub based workers. Maybe not everyone full time at the office until July. Not sue how I feel about any of it right now.
            The issue is they dont practice distancing. The beaches in Florida are reopening. I am sure they have the sand marked at 6 foot intervals…please…………..And UV rays are great when the sun is out.

            Sorry…the whole thing just gets on my nerves.

            I am going to sign off as I am not really in a great mood.

            I’ll be back

          3. SMH says:

            Kim e, Hope you are in a better mood now! I forgot to add that neither Odin nor the doc know my last name so neither could stalk me if things get weird/go south. But thank you for worrying about me, mom! lol.

            As for social distancing, people have to take personal responsibility too because of course lines in the sand are not going to cut it but they don’t in the grocery store either. I would even argue that the beach is important to health. Here parks, places that sell food and pharmacies are all open – the stores practice social distancing for entry and the pharmacy inside – the small one near me only allows two people in at a time. But once you are in the grocery store, you are on your own as to distancing. Ditto in the parks except there are yellow vest patrols that ride around on bikes to break up groups and make people move on. Still joggers are allowed to jog and they breathe all over everyone. Not a good model here for sure but it’s really no different than what is happening there. Germany is a good model and I know from my son that he has been able to go to the park the whole time. Beach is no different really.

            I got some cute masks today – ordered them online. The ones I made were too hot and the surgical ones are needed by medical personnel and too clinical anyway!

            You will be lucky if SIP only goes until May or June. I feel like here we will go until July (hope not!) and if we know by then that a vaccine will be ready in September, I might have to stay until it is available.

            It sounds like your boss is being very responsible.

            Yes, I am six hours ahead of you. Do you drink during the day? 🙂 Smooches!

          4. Kim e says:

            Just about the drinking question for now……of course I wlll. It is for your birthday and jsut a shot. I wont tell if you dont……..LOL
            Make it 6 your time and it will be noon here

          5. SMH says:

            Kim e, You’re a doll. Drinking at noon just for me. Best birthday present ever! If HG will tell us his weekend schedule, we can do it together. If not, we’ll do it anyway. Let’s make it Sunday. Smooches!

          6. Kim e says:

            Sunday it is. I will raise a drink to US at noon CDT and sing Happy Birthday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          7. SMH says:

            Kim e, I just had the most brilliant idea about how to test Odin! I’m going to tell him when it’s my birthday and see how/if he responds. That will be my litmus test. I don’t need to see him for that and I have already been through it with MRN. I know he is not an empath (the doc is) but whether he is a normal or a narc (or at least too narc-ish) is still unclear to me.

          8. Kim e says:

            Great idea……..just keep in mind that if he is a N you are in the GP
            Word of the day…litmus…
            I cant wait to hear your resuilts

          9. SMH says:

            Kim e, Violetta might have talked me out of it. I’ll see what the dynamic is closer to the date. I can’t blame him for anything, really, at this point. We barely know each other, have not seen each other in 7 weeks now, and I have been very passive. Fatigue is setting in. I am looking to when I can escape this country. I am American and I don’t like being locked up! It goes against my freedoms! (just joking – I am very compliant).

          10. Kim e says:

            Yes V made very good points. And so do you.
            This is why I plan on NEVER dating again. Too hard.
            But on a happier note, let’s talk ME!!! My ET has been a lot lower this week. The N (HG says I cant use “he who can not be named….hiss” name anymore) is still there like an annoying gant but I do not think about him first thing or last thing and when my LT says Shut Up, my ET listens.
            Hang in there woman. If we can survive N’s we can survive this.

          11. SMH says:

            Kim e,

            I laughed out loud at your ‘never dating again – too hard.’ It is damned hard because someone gets frustrated and things need to be talked out but if you can get over that hump and respond reasonably to the problems, it is possible to have a good time :). It’s just Ns are so inflexible and cannot see other people’s needs.

            Not sure what I will do about the birthday. Odin is unaware of how much I am testing him. I haven’t mentioned a word about the N to him, though the doc knows all about it. The doc said tonight that he figured he was in the friend zone. I said it’s better for you because I don’t treat my partners very well. Made him laugh. Personality wise, Odin is better for me because he is somewhat arrogant and I am very competitive. I need someone I am not afraid of hurting.

            I am SO happy that your ET has been lower this week. That is so much healthier FOR YOU! Soon you will be ready to date. Lol.

            Wherever we are on Sunday at that hour, we will toast to our birthdays! Hang in there you!


          12. Kim e says:

            What was the doc’s reaction to your N tale?

            Date again…here is my profile for dting site…..
            Hi guys,
            Looking for someone completely messed up who will test the shit out of you to see if you are a Narc after my soul? Well shit fire….I am your girl.

            What do you think> Will it draw them in…!!!!!!!

          13. SMH says:

            Kim e,

            The doc understands because his sister was married to a man who thought he was Jesus, took her inheritance and had four other wives in the house. True story. He died a few months ago. The doc is an empath and his sister is too of course. I explained to him about trauma bonding, for instance, and the frog in water. He gets it.

            Your dating profile is funny. Give it a try. If it were me reading it, I’d be curious!

          14. HG Tudor says:

            Too early for dating, it can be resumed, but not yet, there is other work to be done.

          15. SMH says:

            HG, Yes you are right about Kim e. I did not take her all that seriously as I don’t think she wants to date. She still has too much ET/PTSD. I can tell that I still have some residual PTSD too. But I am also clear about what I want/need and my boundaries are a lot stronger. I don’t have guilt about putting it out there either – this is what I need from you. No threats. Just statement of fact.

          16. HG Tudor says:

            Fair point.

          17. SMH says:

            I hope that means you have confidence in me, HG! Truly if I have any questions or need a consult/narc detector, I won’t hesitate. But at this point being locked down and long distance, it doesn’t seem necessary or that I would even have enough information to give you.

          18. HG Tudor says:

            You are reading here, SMH, therefore I have confidence in you.

          19. SMH says:

            Thank you, HG. That made me smile and also have more confidence in myself. I did look up the somatic article because none of my previous narcs were somatics and I was concerned that I was missing something. I appreciated all the detail and the step-by-step instructions regarding what to look out for. Odin does not fit the profile at all.

          20. Kim e says:

            HG,,,,,I promise. No dating for me for a long time.

          21. HG Tudor says:

            Keep doing the work you are doing with me and it need not be a long time, but if you decide it is not going to be for a long time, then that is because it is your choice and that means you have seized the power. That is what we are going to achieve.

          22. Kim e says:

            FOR REAL!!!!! OMG I guess the doc gets it.
            My dating profile was meant to be funny. I have no intention of dating……now or in the foreseeable future. (unless of course unless N stops by>>>>>ROFLMAO) It;s a joke HG…….

          23. SMH says:

            Kim e, I know. I didn’t really take it seriously, though I do think it would be funny :). I’ll try it for you if you like and see what happens??

            And yes, the doc gets it to a certain extent, at least he is open to analyzing it. I think the sister was pretty isolated until the husband died a few months ago and doc wants to know how to help her. He was trying to get her to go to a regular medical doctor. I suggested she see a therapist who specializes in PTSD. She stayed with the other wives. The husband also talked her out of an inheritance that the father had left her. The father entrusted it to doc but the husband insisted that doc’s sister get it and then frittered it away or something. I don’t really know. Reminds me of parts of Tiger King.

          24. Kim e says:

            Sure. You have my permission to use my profile. Cant wait to see how many hits “we” get….LOL

            Tiger King….my kids told me I need to watch it and then we can discuss on our next remote cocktail party. But I do not have the attention span to do that right now. I mainly watch TV shows that run 30- 45 minutes. I did rent a movie for tonight so we will see how that goes.
            I am looking forward to next Saturday when it is to be in the 70’s. Already warned Kathi that I will be over for a date on her patio. She is pumped. As her nor I see anyone else, we might even move it inside….be still my heart
            Doc’s sister sounds really messed up. Poor thing.
            Have you spoke to your friend that has that messed up friend you 2 went to rescue one night? What is up with her?
            Feeling kinda blah today. Might be the weather. Soft rain constant. Feel like I really did not make progress in my ET healing. Guess it is always progress if I did not break NC.
            I just got a Weaponized Empath report. Going to go read it with a glass of white.
            My drink of choice for our birthday celebration will be a Rum and Coke.
            See you tomorrow in pretend day drinking land!!!!!
            Smooches and HAPPY BIRTHDAY

          25. SMH says:

            Kim e, You can watch one episode at a time. No need to binge watch if you don’t have the attention span. I find that I cannot watch films. Only series. What did you watch?

            Last I heard, my friend’s messed up friend was out of the hospital and living on her own on meds. Doing well!

            Glad you have a visit with Kathi to look forward to and hope you are feeling better today. I think our lock down here is unravelling as transportation numbers have gone way up. I am still using my feet, so off for a long walk to meet a friend. I’ll be home by 6 for a toast! I’ll have a beer, I think, as I have work to do tonight.

            What did you learn from your Weaponized Empath report?


          26. Kim e says:

            Hi. I am a Lookout Cleric. I have built my tower but still have work to do. I understand NC and follow (pretty well). Lots of other stuff that I agree with but I need to reread it over a gain to make sure I know where and how to lose the loose bricks in my tower

            I basically binge watch brain dead stuff where I can do 5 things at once because of no attention span. I watched 15 seasons of NCIS, 6 seasons of The Mentalist, Frankie and Johnnie, Ozark (HIGHLY RECOMMEND)
            I am about 16 minutes into the 1st episode of Tiger King and WOW…..bizarre.

            I read an article yesterday in my neighborhood rag that domestic assaults have gone up 17% since the lock down. I hope that did not surprise anyone. The number surprised me…….that is high for relatively a short period of time. But then again if I were locked in with someone, …………
            I had a ham and cheese omelet for breakfast so that I will have food in my stomach for our B day drink.
            I think next time I become addicted to something it will be a drug. The withdrawal has to be easier. At least there are meds you can take to ease the discomfort.
            Cant wait for my next HG session. I am really feeling stuck and need some ways to move forward. But then again the weekends especially during the lock down are the worst. I keep busy but only so much stuff I can do in a 1500 Sq Ft townhouse that was cleaned yesterday….LOL
            Tomorrow morning I have to get back into my walking at o’dark thirty routine. I feel so much better. Nothing like a walk at 38 degrees to get the blood pumping.

            Off to watch more of TK.
            Smooches. TTYL

          27. SMH says:

            Kim e, Not sure what a Lookout Cleric is but it sounds good! Does it mean you are hyper-vigilant :)? I walked 13000 steps today so feeling pretty smug even though my planks have not gotten past 2 minutes, but still have four days to reach 8!

            Yes, I am worried about domestic abuse too, as well as all of the people who have died or will die because they cannot get treatment for other ailments. And then the suicides.

            My weekends and weekdays pretty much run together – I have a lot of work I can do on my own and I tend to do much of it on the weekends, though yesterday I think I pretty much did nothing but cardio and a bit of shopping (can’t remember).

            You can use drugs to soften narc withdrawal, you know. They can help with the obsessive thinking.

            Glad you are getting some enjoyment out of TK – it’s something!

            The weather here has been gorgeous. Cannot believe it is only 38 degrees there. Oh wait, it’s Chicago. Yes I can!


          28. Violetta says:

            Okay, so you tell him it’s your birthday.
            A) He forgets. Narc, or normal dimwit?
            B) He overdoes it. Narc love-bombing, or romantic dweeb?
            C) He spends just the right amount of attention. Normal, or cagy narc who’s learned not to overplay his hand?

            Bear in mind, I wouldn’t know how to make any of these distinctions myself.

            There’s only one answer I know: D) He ruins it somehow.

            Doesn’t matter if he’s dropping the narc bomb or just a jackhole, you don’t need him.

          29. SMH says:

            Violetta, You are probably right. He doesn’t need to know. But my birthday is pretty much ruined anyway! Might as well use it as a test and throw all the misery I’ve got at it.

          30. Kim e says:

            Violetta, (and SMH as O dont wnat you to think I am talking behind or back)
            At this point I feel bad for SMH that she even has to play these games with Odin. I know we need to look for the flags but Jesus…….all 3 of your scenerios make sense but what a way to have to go about picking a mate.
            Wonder if I am too messed up for the convent? Probably Narcnun would find me.

          31. SMH says:

            Kim e, I actually didn’t think I had to worry about anything until someone on here made me feel insecure about it and told me to be careful. Hmmm. Who could that have been?

            This might be a surprise but I am not looking for a mate and have not asked for monogamy. It’s a choice I made because I am leaving and it isn’t fair to the other person.

            It’s hard to maintain a balanced connection – light enough but meaningful enough – after only one evening together seven weeks ago, and not knowing when we will see each other again. Our wants and needs are not the same at the moment but we try to compromise. For instance, I need Odin to be consistent so I don’t fly into a panic. He is trying. Odin wants me to initiate communication more often. I am trying.

            Note that both my need for consistency and my passivity are left over from MRN. Maybe Odin will help me to fix those things so the next person to come along will get the whole me, the old me, instead of the still with mild PTSD me.


          32. Kim e says:

            Sorry, I certainly did not mean to cause you undo worry. I guess I just over stepped being protective as us empaths sometimes do.
            Carry on. I trust your instincts.

          33. Violetta says:


            I’m sorry if I’m the one who made you insecure about it. Honestly, I don’t have much confidence in my own power to vet people. And even when I can identify them, I’m not always sure of the best way to handle it.

            That overly charming woman at the bank I encountered before quarantine, the one who tried to get me to invest in all kinds of wonderful things I couldn’t afford even when I was still employed by F.U.? Take the brochure, promise to call when I was ready to discuss my options, and get out of there. That one was easy.

            Now, what about the guy on the street who compliments me on my concert tee? Sure, he’s probably half my age, but is he a genuine Phish-head or alayabout looking for a cougar? And if he’s just looking for a sugar mama, surely he’ll go away when he founds out how little I have.

            Unless he’s a serial killer.

            If you want to figure out what your next move should be, take HG’s advice, not mine. I wouldn’t know a real Red Flag if I tripped over it and it bit me in the leg.

          34. SMH says:

            Violetta, Ha. It wasn’t you. It was Kim e. You picked up on it but she started it! It’s okay. I totally understand that you are both looking out for me and I appreciate it. But we are all at different stages and it is good to keep that in mind when we are interacting with each other. I don’t see narcs everywhere I go now or question everyone, but I am not blind either. I know about narcissism now.

            I think we forget that there is a range of normal out there too. Not everyone is as extreme as us or as narcs. And then normals themselves have a lot of complicating factors – gender, cultural background, etc. So there is a lot to account for but also important to keep in mind that even the best people are complicated.

            At least I am sure that neither the doc or Odin are serial killers. I’ve watched enough shows! Both are searchable and I haven’t found anything to contradict what either has said.

            I have also already dated. Two minor relationships, one last fall and the other the year before. The first was really self absorbed and narcish – lots of red flags. The second was needy in a way that conflicts with my personality. I ended both. I don’t need a relationship – only if the person is right for me at this time in my life.

            What is going on in with your job search at the moment? It must be extra hard to find one at this time. I feel for everyone who is looking or who cannot work from home and is let go.

          35. Kim e says:

            It was not you. It was the trouble maker me. LOL

          36. SMH says:

            Damned straight, Kim e! But I understand.

            HG said he has confidence in me because I am still reading and asking questions. If I have any questions or doubts, I’ll ask THE MAN!! He is the only one who counts here, as we all know.


          37. Kim e says:

            Sticking my tongue out at you………

          38. SMH says:

            Kim e, Haha I can picture it. I’ll answer your longer one tomorrow as it’s late here and my eyes are closing. Smooches.

          39. Violetta says:

            Had a Microsoft Teams interview with a university in Appalachia. They were supposed to get back to candidates a week ago, so I’m probably not their first choice. I may get a 2nd contact if enough people a) die from Coronavirus; or b) got better offers because someone died of Coronavirus and we all shift one space over. (It’s just a jump to the left …)

            That’s if they still have the funding for the position (a lot of schools have cancelled their searches) or the school doesn’t go belly up altogether. Got an email from a friend asking if the permanent closure of the branch campus where my last section was had affected me. I hadn’t been checking my FU email, figuring that they’d offer me another section when pigs fly (other than in Lewis Carroll or Floyd album covers). Did a search: after switching to online for the rest of the term, they announced it would be their last term, citing years of declining enrollment in addition to the problems caused by the virus. This school existed since the 19th century, and FU took it over a few years back.

            No wonder I got so little support in terms of teaching the class. I spent more time trying to figure out how to click and drag objects to the proper date, save, and publish to students than I had left to review the readings or their papers. I was doing web design, but they weren’t giving me either the pay it the training an IT staffer could demand. On line reviews of the school described it as a “glorified high school,” which explains the contempt the course directors had for the students. I mentioned articles with contrasting arguments I’d used successfully both as a TA in a large uni with traditional college kids and at the main campus of FU with an urban student body that included people who’d been in the foster system, military vets, returning housewives, and people with prison records. One course director told me, “With these students, it’s going to be more like, ‘This is an article.'” (Um, it’s the web generation: they read articles about celebrities and sports all the time, just not necessarily in academic journals.) Another course director told me I should break the ice by asking them if anyone had a game the previous weekend (many college athletes in the school). Since I actually did college athletics long ago, I decided instead to go around the room and have everyone say which muscle/joint hurt the most. THAT was an interesting conversation.

            I looked on the state government job site, and they still don’t have many openings posted. I had applied before they shut everything down, and had my eye on some others. Can get a check from family if necessary, to ride me over until some property from an estate is sold (who knows what the housing market will be?), but the worst is the depression. I can’t even play with my neighbors’ pets, because there’s been so much contradictory advice about contagion.

            It serves the administrators at FU right, but what about the office workers? There was a lady who’s been there for years, and SHE was the one you went to if you had tech problems. What about the students who had athletic scholarships, and other schools have already made their offers for the next school year? What about that vet who was attending on the GI Bill? Not everyone can make the long trek into the city and back for main campus, and the signal was so poor out there that many had to do their work in the school library, so how can they do online classes?

            Friends say the higher ed bubble is bursting anyway. The student debt is ridiculous for the long-term return.

            I saw an opening at an infant toddler school. They may reject me as overqualified, but I like babies, and I’d rather wipe their rears than kiss the administration’s.

  5. SMH says:

    This describes most of my family and friends. You know why? Because Normals are not crazy while empaths and narcs are – empaths are a kind of good crazy and narcs are a kind of bad crazy.

    1. Kim e says:

      SMH. Letting my good crazy fly
      I am so bored….can you tell?
      I slept 12 hours last night

      1. SMH says:

        Kim e, Is that a secret message? Thankfully, I am not bored (I am really never bored because I am too self-absorbed and entertained by what goes on in my own head) but I do wish I would sleep 12 hours. I’m sleeping well but the light wakes me at an ungodly hour. I’m just finishing an email to the doctor I met on the dating site but have never met in real life (due also to the lockdown – he’s somewhere in the countryside). We’ve been emailing twice a day for almost two months now. He’s given two of my friends advice (through me) on how to deal with their COVID-19 and I have given him advice about how to deal with the PTSD his sister has from being married to a psychopath.


        1. Kim e says:

          No secret message. Just boredom
          The inside of my head is where I try not to be these days as I am trying to not dwell on W and he is always there. Give me 10 months or so and then I can play in my head again. My head is the last place to remove him from.

          I am talking to HG on a schedule to help get rid of my ET habits.

          I do have worries about what happens when life begins again but for now I am just over feeling dead inside and over thinking

          Happy for you and Odin. 💋💋💋

          When are you coming back to the states? Does he ever come here? What does he do?


          1. SMH says:

            Kim e, I don’t know when I am coming back. We are all in a state of suspended animation. My NYC tenant is in another country too and does not know when he can go back. For me, it won’t be before July, probably.

            I had a really brutal workday – great part of it with work narc (we are doing really well together from a distance!) – and now am flopped on the sofa. Actually, I’ve been flopped on the sofa all day working away. It is making me both blind and stupid, so perfect thread.

            I am sorry W is still in your head but again I am here to tell you it will get better. Massacre in Canada? MRN didn’t even cross my mind. A year ago he would have but now he’s dead to me.

            HG will help you to redirect that ET. I certainly remember how hard it was. There wasn’t a moment where I said ‘oh the ET is gone.’ It just slowly faded and it will for you too – kind of like the coronavirus. It peaks and then it fades away with occasional appearances but eventually it will either die for lack of hosts or we will find a treatment/vaccine. That’s what ET is like. It lives wherever it can find a host so you have to make yourself immune to it. I still have some viral particles in my thought patterns but those do not attach to MRN.

            Thank you for your happy thoughts re Odin. We’ll have to see what happens when/if we see each other. I am actually getting a bit antsy so might go back on the dating site because I can at least meet people where I live and go for a walk. All his work is in Europe. I think he’s been to the states but not much. He works in some security or computer thing. I don’t really know. Well, I do know because I can Google him but I don’t think I understand what he does. It’s not his life’s passion or anything. Just a corporate job.

            I’ve just written in a HS FB group about how a teacher sexually assaulted me when I was 17 or 18. I completely forgot about it until I saw others posting about how abusive he was. How was YOUR day? Smooches!

  6. mommypino says:

    I have seen empathic people be dismissive about these things as well because of the strong facade of the narcissist. People are very susceptible to biases regardless of them being empathic or not. A lot of times they stick by their friends and turn a blind eye to their friend’s wrongdoing and help gaslight the victim or blame the victim or dismiss what happened entirely as something that they are not interested to know. They are also ensnared and they want to be liked. Sometimes a Normal is actually less susceptible to being ensnared by a narcissist’s facade.

    This article is very accurate though. Normals are for the most part good people; they are not narcissists. But you would rarely see them rescue a victim. My husband who is a Normal is the most dedicated husband and father that I have ever met. After work he goes home to be with us, play with the kids and help take care of them, joke around, be helpful to me and ask me about my day. But when I told him about our friend whom I think might be ensnared by a narcissist who is also our friend, he tells me to stay out of it because we don’t really know what is going on and our friend is an adult, capable and earns a lot of money and she is always free to leave if she is really being abused. That is the Normal’s first reaction is to stay out of it. My husband served in a public capacity for years and he tells me who the crooks are and what they did and how they screwed up stuff and he doesn’t like them and yet he has zero interest in exposing them or countering them. Although when he was serving he did oppose them and he always stood for what he believed was right even though it has cost him some friends which he didn’t mind. He has very high integrity but he always chooses his battles and turns a blind eye if he doesn’t think that he has the capacity to make a difference.

    1. lisk says:


      It sounds like your husband has a built-in GOSO button!

      1. mommypino says:

        Lol he does!! Normals seem to have that. 😊

  7. SoldierOfLuv says:

    It’s so hard . Convincing yourself that this is really happening to yourself caused by someone we believe we love . Go to others to get a comformation about what we convincing ourself about this person and they deny it .

    It made me feel like really needy selfish bad person.

  8. Anm says:

    Has their been a thread on here about the Tiger King aka Joe Exotic series yet? If so, can someone point me in the direction where I can read others opinions?

    HG, is Carol Baskin a Greater or an Empath?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I have not analysed that individual as I have not watched the programme, I have been about other matters.

    2. Ashley says:

      ANM, oh my gosh I’ve been thinking about this too lol!! I do not think it would be possible for her to be an empath. When she talks of her late husband’s disappearance she shows zero sadness, remorse, nothing. She also passes her lips together which according to body language says she is hiding something. 100% I believe she covered her late husband with sardine oil & fed him to the tigers. My opinion is she is a greater without question!

      1. MommyPino says:

        I haven’t heard of her name so I googled her pictures and she looks like a MR narc. Definitely not an empath. It doesn’t mean that she killed her husband though. It’s possible that she is innocent and just happens to be a narcissist. Could be just a coincidence. But even in the video where she was defending herself there is something amiss with her aura or whatever it is called.

        1. Ashley says:

          I agree going by a picture she looks that way. You wouldn’t look at her appearance & automatically think calculating. The way she is is what makes me think otherwise. Did you watch Tiger King?

          1. MommyPino says:

            No I haven’t but it sounds really interesting. I don’t get to watch mature shows like that anymore because I’m with my little kids all day. But I will try to do it during their nap times. I want to see more if my initial impression on her will stay the same or will change.

          2. Ashley says:

            Ahhh I see. Definitely watch & let me know what you think! Most people that I have seen discuss it think Carole did it so I want to know if your opinion changes also! 🙂

          3. mommypino says:

            I was able to watch up to the middle of the second episode. So far I think Joe Exotic, Doc Antle and Carole B are all narcissists. Joe Exotic is a Lesser and Doc and Carole are both Mid Rangers. Carole reminded me so much of my MMR sister before she had her “reality gap” but Carole is much more efficient and successful so she is probably an Upper MR. I don’t think that she is aware at all that she has no empathy. Her fake tears while she was talking to someone who was praising her sanctuary was also a sign of being a Mid Ranger. Also her hypocrisy of “saving” the tigers only to transfer them to a different cage (her sanctuary) is probably not something that a Greater would stoop down to. I haven’t seen anything about her husband’s disappearance though so I will watch more. I’m also adding having exotic and dangerous animals as pets as a red flag for narcissism. It just makes sense because only people that are extremely grandiose would do that.

          4. Ashley says:

            Thanks for your thoughts! Carole filed for her husband’s death the day after he disappeared (unless I’m mistaken) an innocent person would wait to see if the missing husband came back.. they would hold out hope that they are out there somewhere alive & well but she was READY the next day to be like yup let me file that death!! Lol a rookie move so I agree I no longer think she is a greater. I got too into the calculating aspect of her. But clearly not calculating enough!! Way too obvious lol. Thinking she could be a greater was the same mistake I made with my ex because of what he did on a massive technically international scale but even then it turned out he is an upper mid range so that’s probably what she is

          5. mommypino says:

            Thank you as well! I got done with the third episode. I changed my initial theory. I now think that Carole B killed her husband but she didn’t do it herself, she had professional help. I still believe that she is an UMR. She had all of the motives and she threatened to kill her husband. Her husband filed for an injunction but was denied because she did not physically attack him and her threat to kill him was regarded as freedom of speech. I believe that when he told someone that if he is able to pull this off this would be the slickest thing he has ever done, he was referring to his escape from her but I believe that his escape plan included taking his wealth with him and Carole B would not have any of that. He was in her way and he was threatening to take everything away from her and she would be back to the old unimportant Carole Baskin before she met him and she will not allow that. I asked HG if it is possible for an UMR to kill his or her spouse and he said yes but unlikely. I think this is one of the rare instances because her ex husband was such a threat to her world that she had to get rid of him. I don’t believe that he went to Costa Rica because he would not have left his wealth to her just like that. His wealth was so important to him that her spending was even one of the reasons of their disagreements so I don’t believe for one second that he would just let her have all of it. Also Hillary Clinton is a highly successful person and calculating but she is only an Upper MR and not a Greater. There’s also a lot of rumors that she had some people killed and having it appear as suicide. I’m not saying that those rumors are true but just like Carole Baskin, some people think that she is capable of that as well.

          6. Ashley says:

            Well stated! Love to hear your opinions form! Oh 100% Killary lol the second someone goes to testify against her, they conveniently hang themselves. I don’t even want to know the number of people the Clintons have had murdered

          7. mommypino says:

            I saw a funny meme by a comedian (Terrence Williams) last month:
            “The only way to stop CoronaVirus is to tell Hillary that it’s going to testify against her.”

            He has a point lol.

          8. HG Tudor says:

            Not that I am a Hillary fan but that would certainly be more effective than calling a reporter a disgrace and suggesting injecting disinfectant (even if it was apparently said as a joke).

          9. mommypino says:

            I have no doubt HG that Hillary is more effective and more intelligent than Trump in a lot of ways (not all as there are different kinds of intelligence). Hillary is an Upper Mid Ranger and Trump is an Upper Lesser. But Trump is president and Hillary will never be.

          10. HG Tudor says:

            Interesting comment, I wonder if you will notice what you did there!

          11. mommypino says:

            HG, sometimes the only option is to deflect if the conversation will not go anywhere because people have already made up their minds. I don’t have anything to say about injecting the disinfectant as I have not seen it. I have only seen comments from both sides. Some say he did and some say he didn’t. All that I know is he does open himself up for crucifixion by people who hate him. He does give them a lot of ammunition. And given the fact that he needs fuel, he is obviously doing it to achieve his Prime Aims. I don’t think that the media is fair to him at all. I think that they have been bullying him and I think that as a human he is allowed to crack. A lot of the Democratic politicians also downplayed this virus in the beginning but they are not being crucified like Trump is. In my opinion he has done a good job handling this crisis. In my opinion we would have been in a much worse position if Biden is president because Biden attacked Trump for the travel ban which actually helped. In my opinion, Hillary is more effective with her facade but she would be a terrible president because her facade is more important than the country. Those are my opinions and I’m not interested in having a political debate anymore to explain myself to anyone.

          12. HG Tudor says:

            I am afraid that it is unacceptable to make such an observation and then state “Those are my opinions and I´m not interested in having a political debate anymore to explain myself to anyone.”

            1. You are the individual who is making it a political debate. I am talking about narcissism. You are making it about politics.
            2. You are perfectly entitled to make a political point (albeit it is unnecessary since this is about narcissism) but should you do so, then expect that others may well disagree with your political point (either to make it about politics or the political point in itself)
            3. If you make an observation, be prepared for someone else to make an observation also and it may agree with yours or it may disagree.
            4. This is a blog about narcissism and part of your observations make the mistake of describing what is a clear narcissistic response as something else (an example of that is contained in your first sentence). It provides an opportunity also to provide additional information in order to help.

            Journalists have an agenda when they ask questions. A seasoned and competent politician knows this. The skill is to know it, recognise it and respond in a fashion which demonstrates a statesman like answer. It is commonly said of politicians that they never answer the question. They deflect, because many politicians are narcissists, so the question challenges their control and their self-defence mechanism operates through deflecting the question by not answering it and talking about some other point. Let’s look at two examples, both involve narcissists but of different schools :-

            Example One
            “Minister, what do you say to the new figures released today which show a sharp rise in unemployment in the last month? That’s a terrible record for the government isn’t it?”
            “Well, Nick, we have started 30 000 new Youth Apprentice schemes which are designed to ensure that young people, who are the future of this nation, let us not forget that, are able to receive the training and skills that they need to enter the job market and provide employers with useful and skilled employees. We have also reduced business rates for all businesses which have between 5 and 100 employees which will provide considerable headroom to those businesses in terms of their costs at what is a difficult time for those businesses. This government is committed to ensuring people are given the best opportunity to secure employment.”

            He did not answer the question. He did not admit or deny that is was a terrible record for the government. He talked about what the government was doing (but not whether this was effective or not) and did not answer the question through deflection. He did however come across as courteous, ready to explain, he had information available to disseminate and was statesman like in the answer.

            Example Two
            “Minister, what do you say to the new figures released today which show a sharp rise in unemployment in the last month? That’s a terrible record for the government isn’t it?”
            “Fake news, you are a disgrace, Nick.”

            The question has not been answered either, although the response lacks sophistication and is not statesmanlike.

            Both responses are entirely effective as a narcissistic self-defence mechanism HOWEVER remember that nearly all those watching will not be versed in narcissism and therefore they will judge the response outside of the narcissistic frame of reference. Both politicians are equally evasive, both have sought to assert control over the challenge, so far, so similar but thereafter, which politician do you think would be condemned more than the other for the manner and content of the response? The first politician may be condemned for not answering the question but it is far less likely that he will be condemned also for the manner of the answer. The second is far more likely to be condemned for the evasiveness AND the manner of the response.

            This leads to an additional point. In some instances, the second politician may be (from the majority perspective) justified in deeming a question as inappropriate BUT because of the manner in which that is communicated, the point he scores by being justified in not answering it, is then lost because of the manner in which the response is given. This provides us with a useful comparison between the different styles applicable to the different schools of narcissist.

            Any politician knows that they will be grilled by the media. That goes with the territory. The media is not there to be “fair” to politicians, it is there to hold people to account and to make a profit.

            To write ” I don’t have anything to say about injecting the disinfectant as I have not seen it.” Well, no, you do not have to say anything about it, but since you write “I have only seen comments from both sides. Some say he did and some say he didn’t.” you just have commented further about it. It might also have been worthwhile actually investigating what was said. Trump said

            “And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. And is there a way we can doing something like that? By injection inside or almost a cleansing. ´Cause you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number of the lungs. So it will be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with? But it sounds, it sounds interesting to me.”

            This neither reads as sarcastic and viewing the footage neither demonstrates sarcastic tone, expression or mannerism.

            That comment invites criticism, not solely from people who may hate him, but because it is at best an unhelpful and at worst dangerous observation. I do not hate Trump, but I regard that comment as a poor one.

            Have the media been bullying him? No. He is the President which means he has to expect comment and scrutiny, some of it will be biased, some of it will be unfair and some of it will be unjustified, but bullying? No. Do not forget he thrives on the fuel (attention) in these press conferences because he (usually) instinctively feels that he has control and that’s why he spends two hours doing them because it gives him what he needs in terms of gathering fuel and asserting control.

            “A lot of the Democratic politicians also downplayed this virus in the beginning but they are not being crucified like Trump is.” They may well have done so and if so, they ought to be justifiably held to account, but remember Trump is the president. When you hold that position, you will have both praise and criticism (which amounts to a massive amount of fuel) – why do you think narcissists want such positions and achieve them?

            “In my opinion he has done a good job handling this crisis.” Fair enough that is your opinion. I am not here to debate that as I am commenting on narcissism and it is also correct that many narcissists can achieve good and great things.
            ” In my opinion we would have been in a much worse position if Biden is president because Biden attacked Trump for the travel ban which actually helped.” Biden may indeed have done a worse job but that is ultimately irrelevant because he is not President, Trump is. Trump may well have done a very good job given the circumstances.

            “In my opinion, Hillary is more effective with her facade but she would be a terrible president because her facade is more important than the country.” In part you are right, because Trump has no facade and Clinton indeed operates one, however, the need for control is more important than the country and that applies to both Trump and Clinton. Control first, everything else second and sometimes everything else fits as well, but often it does not because the need for control for a narcissist trumps (pun intended) everything else and it is only the more sophisticated and highly resourced narcissists who can obtain control AND secure an advantageous outcome in other respects as well.

            Politicians, be they left wing or right wing, Republican or Democrat, Conservative or Labour, provide us with very useful models and examples for understanding narcissism. That is the focus of this place, not whether they are a “good or bad” thing by reference to their political leanings or achievements.

          13. SMH says:

            HG, You have the patience of a saint.

          14. HG Tudor says:

            See, I am just misunderstood!

          15. SMH says:

            You picked the right title for this post, however, HG. Blind and stupid couldn’t be more accurate.

          16. mommypino says:

            HG, I appreciate all of your responses. I really do. And I understand what you are saying that this is about narcissism for you and not whether or not Trump is a good or bad President. I appreciate your patience and for addressing what I said. But I disagree with some of the things that you have said.

            The media has been incredibly unreasonable and unfair against Trump. I have not seen them challenge Obama or even Clinton anywhere near the level that they do Trump. They absolutely hate Trump, just like SMH does, and it shows in their questioning. Even Dr. Fauci who appears to be of reasonable temperament have at times shown frustration from the idiocy of the questions asked by the media. They do not even try to hide their agendas. They are far from acting professionals and they do not care to try to act like professionals because their hatred for Trump trumps everything else. Trump could find a cure for cancer and they would say, “Trump spent millions of taxpayer money to find a cure for cancer, a disease common to white male nationalists.” Just look at SMH’s comments and that’s how the media’s attitude is. They want to get rid of a Trump period and they don’t care if he is doing things right or wrong. If he does something right, they conveniently dismiss it because it doesn’t align with their agendas.

            SMH: “ But seen through the lens of narcissism, everything he does is ‘bad.’ If he does something ‘right,’ I just say even a stopped clock is right twice a day. ”. The media may not be directly talking about his narcissism although they have alluded to it many times, but some of the commenters here such as SMH are using his narcissism to push their personal political agendas. It is not solely about narcissism for them.

            SMH: “ Hoping C19 is the death of him, directly or indirectly. Tired of it.”.
            I do remember the media behaving in a similar way saying this could be Trump’s Chernobyl with almost rubbing their hands with delight kind of enthusiasm when the pandemic was starting. The lack of empathy towards people that are dying is startling. I remember SMH said that she wish the economy would crash so Trump wouldn’t get reelected. It’s interesting how an Empathic person who has a hard time eating because of people who are hungry right now doesn’t have a problem hoping for an economy to crash which would cause more people to be hungry because of their hopes that this will cause Trump to be removed from office. So really, anything coming from SMH regarding Trump is not coming from an even-handed logical thought process. She’s much more highly political than me as I have never wished death upon a politician that I disagree with.

            I agree with you about Trump in many ways. If you will notice, I have been a Trump supporter before I found your site. I found your site and I chanced upon the article that you wrote about him identifying him as an Upper Lesser narcissist. My first reaction was to read what you wrote and look at the pieces of evidence you presented and the soundness of your arguments. I have decided that they are persuasive and logical enough for me to believe you. I did not attack you for it and I didn’t even try to defend him. You will not find a comment from me denying what he is. And I have said this many times before already, I disagree with the way he presents himself. I can’t stand some of the things that he has said. I am not a fan of his lifestyle although I do not judge him for it either. I see his narcissism, I recognize it and study his behaviors with regards to how his narcissism affects them but I separate that from what I believe is to be good or bad for the country. Many politicians do not have empathy and even if their performance regarding their facade is much better or sophisticated than Trump’s, it doesn’t mean that they will get my vote based on how they are effective with how they present themselves over what their policies are.

          17. HG Tudor says:

            You state that you disagree with some of the things that I said, but I am unclear precisely what you are referring to as you spend most of your comment referring to SMH, not me.

            Assuming you are correct that “the media absolutely hates Trump” and for the moment we will assume you are correct about that, do you know why this should be the case?

          18. mommypino says:

            HG, I disagree with the notion that that media was not bullying Trump, specifically this statement:
            “The media is not there to be “fair” to politicians, it is there to hold people to account and to make a profit.”
            And I have explained why I disagree that they hold people to account as they did not hold Obama and Bill Clinton to account in many instances and not to the same degree that they do to Trump.

            I used SMH’s statements to illustrate the media’s mentality because I find them very similar.

            Regarding your question, I believe there are several reasons for that and this is not in a particular order:

            1. It is driven by the way he presents himself in an Upper Lesser Type B way.
            2. It is driven by their political leanings as most of them are liberal Democrats.
            3. It is driven by their strongly held political agendas as most of them (I have observed) promote the policies that is of opposite to the policies that Trump promotes.

          19. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for clarifying. The media is part of the free press. The free press is part of concept of freedom of speech and indeed both are protected by the First Amendment to the Constitution. Part of what the media does is to hold those who wield power to account. Now, I am not stating that the media is some saintly instrument, far from it, but the media questions politicians, lawmakers etc in accordance with the freedom of the press. The problem with your comment “And I have explained why I disagree that they hold people to account as they did not hold Obama and Bill Clinton to account in many instances and not to the same degree that they do to Trump.” is that it is rather subjective, you are not providing any method of measuring the conduct of the press versus Obama, Clinton or Trump (if indeed it can be measured in a statistically meaningful way). Therefore there is an inherent problem with that you have stated. As an aside, was Bush Snr and/or Bush Jnr held to account more or less by the media than Obama or Clinton? They appear to have been missed out for some reason.

            However, let us assume that the media are holding Trump to account “in many instances” where they did not with Obama and Clinton or to a greater degree. Why might that be? Three choices present themselves :-

            1. The conduct of the president merits this increased scrutiny.
            2. The media just do not like him so they attack him more than they did Obama and Clinton.
            3. A mix of 1 and 2.

            This leads us then yo your responses. Taking them in turn.

            1. It is driven by the way he presents himself in an Upper Lesser Type B way – Undoubtedly. He makes himself an easy target because of the obvious lies that are being told. Plenty of other politicians tell lies (because most are narcissists) but they do not tend to do so in a way which makes it very easy to. Take this for example Trump tweeted ” Was just informed that the Fake News from the Thursday White House Press Conference had me speaking and asking questions of Dr Deborah Birx. Wrong, I was speaking to out Laboratory expert, not Deborah, about sunlight etc and the Coronavirus. The Lamestream Media is corrupt and sick.” There is footage of him using Dr Deborah Birx´s name when he was asking the questions about sunlight etc. It is not as if he is trying to remember an event from 10 years ago, it was early that day/the day before. His narcissism makes it too easy for the media to point out these behaviours and attack his behaviour.
            2. It is driven by their political leanings as most of them are liberal Democrats – based on what? Who are Liberal Democrats? The print journalists? The television presenters? The researchers? The editors? The producers? The owners of the outlets? This is a very broad brush observation and one has to treat it with considerable caution.
            3. It is driven by their strongly held political agendas as most of them (I have observed) promote the policies that is of opposite to the policies that Trump promotes – Given what you have written at 2 above, this is also a broad brush statement. You are of course entitled to your view, but whether it is well-founded based on reliable evidence, is another matter.

            With regard to your comments re SMH, direct them to SMH not me. I have no political leanings one way or the other with regard to US politics, what I do do is operate on the basis of evidence and the manifestation of narcissism and its examples. That is my focus and the focus of this place.

          20. mommypino says:

            HG, I have found articles to support my assertion regarding media bias:




            I want to add that my comparison with you and Trump is not meant to criticize you but to prove that I am logical in how I see that the narcissism is separate from the value that I get from both of you. In no way am I implying that you are on the same level because as I have stated you are much more polished and I would add more intelligent. I am just making a comparison on how I disregard the narcissism in using your work and voting for him. If Trump’s narcissism means he contradicts the promises that he made such as appointing a liberal judge like his own sister for the Supreme Court etc. to betray and provoke those who voted for him then I will not vote for him again and I will start to dislike him.

            I apologize for criticizing SMH through my conversation with you. I will refrain from speaking about her in my comments directed to you. It was done to me previously but it doesn’t mean I should do it as well.

            Lastly, I didn’t intend to enter in another political argument here and I have been purposely avoiding making comments in the political comments that other commenters make. I have shared a joke about Hillary to someone that I know will not be offended by it. I will keep on trying to avoid being in political arguments. So far in this instance I failed.

          21. SMH says:

            MP No worries! Keep on with the drivel and I will keep on scrolling right through it as my eyes glaze over or roll up into my head. Go for it. It is all about you, after all.

          22. lisk says:


            I am more a President Not-Hillary/Biden supporter than a Trump fan, per se. Still, I do think he has good instincts on many things and his political “heart” is often in the right place.

            I have often said to myself that T would do better if he would let in better advisors. However, now I think he might have them already, but he just won’t listen. That’s definitely his particular narcissism that won’t let him take advice. Sometimes I wish Melania would go all Eastern European on him and set him straight. Maybe she already does and this is the best she can do.

            Regarding the media, yes, it does treat Trump differently than, say, Obama. But I think it was pretty hard on George W, as well. But, then, the media got all over Bill C and the Monica Lewinsky thing, too—though, maybe, they couldn’t help that given then outlier and media newbie Matt Drudge’s influence.

            Maybe all of this is telling in terms of whose hands the media is in. As they say, follow the money!

          23. mommypino says:

            Lisk, I appreciate your comment. I agree about how his narcissism affects his performance as President. But I personally don’t see it affecting his performance in such a scale where I would deem the alternatives as better options than him. He did hired amazing scientists who are obviously dedicated to run his C19 task force and I have seen him defer to them. I watched the clip on YouTube yesterday and I felt the same way as your observation. He tends to think out loud and I have also read comments on Facebook that he was referring to actual therapies that are already being used currently but because he doesn’t have the expertise to fully understand them and he used his own layman words, it was inaccurate. And then I understand that because of his narcissism, instead of admitting that he made a mistake, he said that he made a sarcastic remark. It was easier for him to admit that he was sarcastic than to admit that he made a mistake. I remember one of Obama’s way of avoiding to answer something that he wouldn’t have a good answer to is, “It is above my pay grade.” Which makes hims sound very humble but actually it is a way of deflecting. I do understand what HG is saying about the differences in how the narcissism manifests in different schools but that is separate from how I decide whom to vote for.

          24. mommypino says:

            Also personally, I doubt that Biden will be the one who will run against Trump in the end. I could be wrong as I am just observing as a voter with no expertise whatsoever, but I don’t think that the Democrats are 💯 on board with him. Obama’s endorsement of him had zero emotion and zero excitement and it felt like he did it because he had to. The sexual assault allegation will probably be a convenient way to ask him to drop out and they will find someone else.

          25. lisk says:

            My feeling is that they’re using Biden to get the first woman president in through the side door. If the Dems do that, then Trump should fire Pence and put Condi in as his running mate. That would be so fun.

            RE: Obama He is always without emotion and excitement. Total blank narc except when he is faking it for his own votes.

            P.S. I am card-carrying Dem, but have never voted straight ticket until 2018, when I voted for all Republicans in a state election because I was and am so disgusted by overall Dem behavior. The party ain’t what it used to be.

          26. mommypino says:

            Lisk, You’re probably right about Obama. I have always noticed his dead eyes as well which only livens up when it is about him. Very much like a lot of narcs that I have known. Bill Clinton for some reason has always been able to fake interests on things and people that are not about him. I dislike Bill Clinton now because of the things that I found out but he does have the energy and appearance where anybody can talk to him regardless of who you are and he will not judge you. It shows why he is a Greater and Hillary is not. Bill Clinton would never make the mistakes that Hillary made such as the quote that I shared here about her lame and offensive joke. People really gravitated to him and he was able to hide whatever contempt he had for whatever group of people when he was still active in politics.

          27. lisk says:

            Have you ever seen Primary Colors?

            John Travolta is amazing as President Jack Stanton (Bill Clinton). There’s a scene in a library that demonstrates Clinton’s brilliance with people. (I do not worship Clinton by any means, but there is no denying his talent.)

            I only watched it (with Narciso of all people—he was probably trying to get some pointers) before I knew of HG. I would love to watch it again after better knowing narcissism now.

          28. mommypino says:

            I would have to see that Lisk! I will find where I can watch it. I am no Bill Clinton worshipper either but I agree that his talent is undeniable. I still remember he went to my home country and wore our traditional costume and looked really handsome in it and everybody was so excited that he was wearing it. He had a Filipina girlfriend when he was in college and at the time of his visit she was a career employee for the government. He mentioned her to establish a bond with us in our country. The rumor was that he had girlfriends from different countries when he was young to learn or familiarize himself with their languages and culture. Totally sounds like a Greater!

          29. lisk says:

            Yes, bonding with others seemingly unlike him is what happens in the scene that I mention.

            And about that international girlfriends rumor, how could it *not* be true? What better way to go gathering information and acquiring traits!

          30. mommypino says:

            Also Lisk, I used to be a Democrat. My dad was a life long Democrat and so was my grandmother and it goes back to my great (3x) grandfather. I voted straight ticket twice for Democrats since I got my US citizenship, the second time when Obama ran. Now I am a registered Independent but in terms of policies I am leaning towards a mix of Republican and Libertarian. You are so right, the Democratic Party is not how it used to be. My dad is very different than a lot of the current Democrats.

          31. lisk says:

            “It is only the more sophisticated and highly resourced narcissists who can obtain control AND secure an advantageous outcome in other respects as well.” This was Bill Clinton to a tee, and no one has yet succeeded him in being able to do or be this, at least in the US.

            These seem like once-in-a-lifetime narcs now.

            They may have been more frequent in the previous century, but even then, statesmanship started really dying towards the end of the Cold War.

            All of the sudden, I’m in the mood to revisit Yes, Minister and Yes, Prime Minister episodes!

          32. HG Tudor says:

            I agree with you Lisk that there does appear to have been a reduction in statesman/stateswomanlike narcissists over the last 50 years and certainly in the last 10-15 years, which has coincided with the rise of populism and the embracing of social media tools.

          33. lisk says:

            I was actually going to bring up the ride of television and cable news in my previous post, and yes, definitely social media.

            I wish a real statesman would rise and say, “You will get your answers once they have been carefully considered and formulated.”

          34. HG Tudor says:

            From now on “You will get your answers once they have been carefully considered and formulated.” will be added before my replies on the blog. That has, of course, always been the case, but it is time for me to show my hand at long last and allow you all to marvel in my statesmanlike abilities!

          35. lisk says:

            I already said it in my head, HG: “If only HG would step into out front into politics!”

            Still, I appreciate your invisible hand.

          36. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you.

            It is far more effective for me to operate between the lines.

          37. lisk says:

            I just watched. It sounds like he is a non-scientist wondering about possibilities but using the wrong vocabulary word to identify a concept.

            Though how wrong the word is, I don’t know. I don’t see what the big deal is. Don’t antibiotics dis-infect our bodies of harmful bacteria when we’ve caught something?

            Anyway, in a world where the concept and use of the term “Clean Eating” is barely questioned, his use of the word “disinfectant” seems reasonable.

            Regardless, I doubt anything he says will change my vote in November.

          38. HG Tudor says:

            That is indeed one potential interpretation which could readily arise from what was said. The comment itself and the response thereafter is interesting in terms of narcissistic behaviour.

            “Right. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning.”

            It was a clumsily worded comment. This could be interpreted in two ways :-

            1. Literal interpretation. Inject disinfectant (which you keep under the sink) to get rid of the virus.
            2. Analogous interpretation. Something similar to how disinfectant works but not literally to use disinfectant, an injection of something which would cleanse the body of the virus.

            Some people have latched on to it being the first which demonstrates, in itself, the problem experienced by certain types of narcissists caused by their instinctive need to apply control. The need to control governs, therefore a comment is made to achieve that aim with the collateral consequence of being interpreted by some literally which results in ridicule.

            The evolved narcissism of some narcissists would mean such a clumsy comment would not have been made in the first place. A different comment or method of control would be applied.
            With others, there would be a degree of preparation engaged in before making the comment, to do so in an informed and polished way so that the clumsiness would not occur even though a comment is made. Trump often fails to prepare for his press conferences, which of course, is his narcissism at work.

            Following this comment, there has been widespread reaction to it ranging from ridicule to outright condemnation of it advocating something dangerous. Those reactions are of course Challenge Fuel and the narcissist needs to assert control. The first option is to do so directly, by offering an explanation, clarification or rebuttal. Trump´s narcissism selected this but executed it badly, in line with the type of narcissist that he is.

            A certain school of narcissist may have responded with a statement (using input from advisors) along these lines
            “Yesterday, in a busy press conference, I made reference to exploring the potential of using a means of disinfecting or cleansing humans of the covid-19 virus. My intention was never to advocate the injection or ingestion of disinfectant. I understand how my thought process could have been interpreted differently. I want to make it clear that nobody should inject or otherwise ingest any kind of cleaning fluid, disinfectant or chemical in order to try to remove covid-19. What I meant was that we are exploring if there is some safe means of removing the virus in a way which is similar to the effect that disinfectant has on the virus. I trust this clarifies what I explained and again make it very clear, do not inject or ingest any type of cleaning chemical.” This would be effective because it places the onus on the listener that they may have interpreted it wrongly (Blame Shifting) thus preserving a lack of accountability and thus maintaining control. It also ensures a sensible message moving forward. It is a win for control, it is a win for facade management and a win for sensible advice.
            You will never get everybody on side when you are in a prominent political position, but most people would be likely to think “Ah fair enough, I can see what he meant, it came out wrong and was a stupid thing to say, but he has cleared it up now. Okay, let’s move on.”

            Instead the response to the challenge posed by the ridicule, outrage and etc was to state this

            “Interior wise, it is said sarcastically. It was put in the form a question to a group of extraordinarily hostile people. Namely the fake news media.”
            As ever, this is done to assert control. However, because of the type of narcissism in operation, what this does is:-
            1. Lie. It was not said sarcastically. The wording and footage show that. Of course, in the mind of the narcissist, what is being said NOW is true.
            2. Revision of History.
            3. Deflection. The fake news media.
            4. Blames Shifting. They are hostile to me and therefore whatever I say they will twist and use against me.
            This response means that some observing form this view:-

            1. You realise the comment was a bad one, otherwise, why are you labelling it as sarcasm?
            2. It was not sarcasm, you are lying.
            3. You are trotting out the usual mantra about fake news.
            Therefore unlike the statement example above which would douse most fires of objection, the response only goes to accelerate the existing fires.

            This is a useful example of how some narcissists respond to assert control, but end up making the issue more problematic for them. It has considerable value (nothing to do with politics) of demonstrating the narcissistic self-defence mechanism in action.

          39. lisk says:

            I am trying to remember where you write/wrote about the self-sabotaging narcissist. Please direct me if

          40. SMH says:

            HG, The more considered response – “Yesterday, in a busy press conference” – sounds exactly how a British politician would say it. They actually piss me off more than Trump does – so insidious while Trump is fairly easy to read. Can’t wait for BoJo to return and for you to lead us through it.

          41. lisk says:

            Well, speak of the little devil—BoJo is back!

          42. mommypino says:

            HG, are you implying that I’m a narcissist?

          43. HG Tudor says:


            Do explain where on earth you drag that up from?

          44. mommypino says:

            I was wondering if when you said you wonder if I will notice what I did if that meant you are pointing out that I made an instinctive manipulation like unaware narcissists do. I don’t really understand what you meant there for sure and all I could do is make guesses. Thank you for saying that you don’t. I apologize if that came out as confrontational as I needed clarification and I don’t know how else to word my question better.

          45. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you for explaining. No, that was not what I driving at MP. You were not confrontational, I know you respond in a sensitive fashion to such matters, but you need not do so. I was pointing out that you actually contracted yourself (not that you engaged in an instinctive manipulation) and contraction is not the sole preserve of narcissists (although we do it far more often than anybody else). Non-narcissists can contradict themselves, through mistake.

          46. SMH says:

            More effective than injecting disinfectant, HG? I don’t think so. The quickest way to kill C19 is to kill yourself. Injecting disinfectant would be a very efficient way to do that. Can’t wait to read the first reports. And it was not said as a joke. No filters Trump believed it in the moment. Then his narcissistic defence mechanism kicked in when people started to laugh at him. That’s when it became ‘a joke.’

          47. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha good point, SMH.

            I knew it was not said as a joke SMH, I made that point because I know some supporters may retort with “it was meant as a joke”. It was not and you are correct what you stated about the retrospective joke observation (Revision of History). The observations are always made in the context of narcissism, not as to whether Trump is a good thing or a bad thing, as I have made clear before (I know you understand that) but it is worth repeating to save me dealing with any indignant responses. As a head of state, you would not make such a joke unless you happened to be an Upper Lesser Type B Narcissist and Trump continues to provide an excellent example of this particular sub school in a very powerful position. If it had been Clinton, we would have seen an UMR in action. It is all excellent education for people once they recognise it, interestingly, so many still do not and describe the behaviour incorrectly. If they actually realised what it was, they would find their lives far easier!

          48. SMH says:

            HG, I agree. Trump does not actually bother me that much because- thanks to you – I can see quite clearly how he operates. I am constantly explaining to people why he did this or that and what he meant or did not mean. The media bothers me more because they are so indignant and blind to what he is that none of them can figured out how to challenge him effectively. It’s frustrating to watch/read. Hoping C19 is the death of him, directly or indirectly. Tired of it.

          49. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed. Some individuals fail to understand that by explaining that he is a narcissist it is not saying what he does is good or bad but rather THIS is why he behaves as he does. They repeatedly miss that. The outcome may be good or bad, that’s not my focus because I’m not here to judge the outcome of his Presidency but I am here to explain he has behaved this way because of his narcissism. It is interesting although unsurprising how many in the media fail to see and understand what’s driving his behaviour. It’s not dementia, it’s not adderall addiction it’s narcissism.

          50. SMH says:

            HG, Yes, that is what I find frustrating – that people are assessing him the way they would a normal person with normal motivations, who might or might not have an illness or an addiction. But seen through the lens of narcissism, everything he does is ‘bad.’ If he does something ‘right,’ I just say even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Just goes to show you how many people do not have a clue and how much work you have to do.

          51. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed, there is much to be done.

          52. lisk says:

            “It is interesting although unsurprising how many in the media fail to see and understand what’s driving his behaviour.”

            Right, they do the same with, say, Meghan Merkle. So obvious what she is, but no one will write the word.

            Similarly, I watched a documentary, The Inventor, the other day.

            The “antagonist,” Elizabeth Holmes, is visually, verbally, and behaviorally a narcissist—and a journalist actually states that something is wrong with her mind—but no one can pinpoint it.

            It’s a fascinating doc if anyone is interested (free on HBO til the end of this month). Maybe it’s been already discussed on KTN somewhere.

          53. HG Tudor says:


          54. NarcAngel says:

            The Inventor was good.

          55. mommypino says:

            The UMR Hillary in action presents differently but she is far from perfect as she has made some serious gaffes as well. The latest I know is when she made a joke about the US having the most number of deaths in the world, “ He did promise “America First.” ”. Making a joke at the expense of people that died from the virus is not a very intelligent move.

          56. HG Tudor says:

            MP, we know that you are a Trump supporter. We know you do not like Clinton. Yes, they are both narcissists and one can criticise their behaviours in a variety of ways. This is a blog about narcissists. They are both narcissists, but one is in the White House and one is not, hence the former comes to greater prominence and since he is a narcissist, his narcissism is commented about. Every time something is stated about Trump´s narcissism, you do not have to then remind us about Clinton. The observations about Trump are not done (once again) to say he is a good or bad person, that his Presidency is good or it is bad, it is to comment on how his comments, behaviours and actions are driven by narcissism. Some of the things he achieves can be viewed as good and some as bad (it depends on your standpoint) but that is not what this blog is about, it is about narcissism and thus comments on his narcissism.

          57. Ashley says:

            Haha I saw that also!

          58. Ashley says:

            Mommypino, have you heard about this? 😊

            “Discovered and developed by scientists at Cedars-Sinai, the Healight injectable disinfectant has been licensed by AYTU for development as a potential first-in-class treatment for Corona virus and other respiratory infections.”

            If it works, I hope they name it Trump Disinfectant 😌😍

          59. mommypino says:

            Lol how funny!!

          60. Ashley says:

            Haha I hoped it would make you smile!

          61. mommypino says:

            It got me laughing!! Thank you!! <3 <3

          62. Ashley says:

            Haha good!!

          63. mommypino says:

            Another suspicious thing was the power of attorney saying “in case of his disability or disappearance “. I think that a Greater would be able to plan it out in a less obvious way.

          64. Ashley says:


          65. Mommypino says:

            The exchange between you and Anm made me curious. I used to watch Deadly Women and try to understand why those women did those things. But that was before I understood what narcissists and psychopaths are. It will be interesting to watch something like this after I learned what narcissists are and analyze the characters using the Tudor lens. I will let you know what I think afterwards.

          66. Ashley says:

            I used to watch that too! 🙂 I used to watch the ID channel alllll the time haha then I forget about it. Totally!!

          67. Anm says:

            No, carol had to wait a couple years before her husband would be considered legally dead. What was strange about that situation, she wrote out his will to actually state what would happen to his money if he ever went “missing”. Everyone was like, who thinks about their spouse going missing? She then justified it by saying that he was flying the planes illegally, therefore he was making sure no one could track him, and she was afraid he would “disappear” while flying over the ocean. That’s where I think he disappeared by doing something shady with those planes, and carol may or may have not known what he was up to.

          68. Ashley says:

            Anm, ahhh it’s so interesting isn’t it!!!

          69. NarcAngel says:

            Like he might be making drug runs in those planes while visiting his “girlfriend” in Costa Rica?

          70. mommypino says:

            It is possible that he was involved in some illegal (possibly drug related) activities with his plane and he was killed by drug lords. That’s probably why he had a lot of money. But what makes me more suspicious of Carole B is the timing of his disappearance. He said that she threatened his life and he wanted to divorce her and move to Costa Rica and move the tiger sanctuary in Costa Rica and live with his girlfriend. It’s either Carole Baskin had him killed or she is so amazingly lucky that he got killed by someone else right before he was going to divorce her.

          71. Violetta says:

            HG: Couldn’t Trump be a Narc with advancing dementia? They’re not mutually exclusive.

            I have to say, Reagan did a better job when he was developing Alzheimer’s.

          72. HG Tudor says:

            He could, they are not, but he is not.

          73. Violetta says:

            HG, that reply is worthy of a Classical Latin epigram.

          74. HG Tudor says:

            Thank you.

        2. Violetta says:

          Public Service Announcement:
          Have you injected your Spic-n-Span today?

          1. lisk says:

            I’m a fan of Mr. Clean.

        3. alexissmith2016 says:

          If I lived in the states I’d vote Trump all day long! I don’t particularly agree with him on anything. It would literally be for the comedy value. Trump has been the most entertaining thing during lockdown! I want more press conferences.

          Makes me think of teacher-child role when the teacher is clearly thinking one of the children in her care is doing something incredibly dumb, she smiles sweetly and simply says, “Well, it’s not wrong, but we just don’t do it like that”.

          Trump forever!

          1. mommypino says:

            Well there you go! At least you are able to see something positive! Honestly I can’t think of anyone who could be as entertaining as he is. I often think the Republican Party does not deserve him. He totally jazzed them up!

          2. alexissmith2016 says:

            He has most definitely done that. Regardless of what his political intentions are or are not. He does get things done too.

          3. Lorelei says:

            Narcissists aren’t all bad. There seems to be a connotation at times that they are all deplorable and all actions have to be viewed as such. An empath could totally fuck stuff up. Skill and narcissism are not the same. I don’t hate Trump, I think his behavior is usually funny. Where I have issues often lies with his lack of facade—telling the breastfeeding woman she was gross or whatever it was.. Degrading comments etc. But I don’t dislike him. He’s going to be discussed for a few hundred years.

          4. Lorelei says:

            Alexis—I have no more love or dislike for Trump vs. Hilary. I have great difficulty supporting all of one party’s views over the other because my views aren’t concrete on all matters. I can see how everyone feels and how it’s complicated. What hurts one benefits another. I’ve always had confusion as to why I’m so inclusive of all views, I thought I surely had a poor sense of self, but I think it boils down to my general nature and isn’t pathological. I have definite opinions on some matters, but some of the big ticket items in politics turn me off to debate. A bigger interest is public health, and it’s easy to garner my attention on matters to do with health & education. I enjoy the political discussions though, and actually had to disengage from the mind warp of CNN/Fox at one point.

      2. Anm says:

        I am only on episode 4, so I do not have an opinion. What I have found intriguing, is that this show covers how narcissist actively search for empaths and codependent to reach their prime aims.
        Joe is obviously a Lesser. But he feels like an empowered one because he is able to seduce straight men, put on magic shows for teenagers, own a private zoo, and have misfits working for free to help his agendas.
        Bhavagan, aka “Lord”, is obviously a midrange narcissist who thinks he is a Greater. He keeps a clean appearance, looks for women who are innocent, and used cult like mechanisms to keep them around.
        Carol knows what the other Narcissist are doing, but feels those tactics are below her. Her organization and her husband is worth 10s of millions of dollars. She has no interest in engaging with her “employees” in a sexual manner, in fact, she even states she doesn’t know their names. Like the others, she forbids to pay her employees, but does it in a way that presents it as a dignified way in society, gives them a cause to “save the tigers”, gives them status and recognition (tshirt with colors), and titles that look good (“intern”, “non-profit volunteer”, etc.).

        1. Presque Vu says:

          I must watch this! Tonight! Sounds interesting! I’ve missed out on all the hype but I need to see what it’s all about 🧐

        2. fox says:

          Yay! I’m glad people here are starting to watch Tiger King. I’ve been waiting for this conversation. I am rewatching it now. HG is about to be irritated with how much we will be talking about it (so sorry HG!), but I feel like it’s the equivalent of when the teacher puts a movie on in class so that it can be discussed to further understanding. it really should be required viewing.

          I personally think Carole Baskin is a MR who thinks she’s an empath. She’s definitely no empath, and If she were a Greater, I would think people would not suspect her of killing her husband (which I strongly believe she did). And there’s so many other narcissists. Anm, I think you are right about ‘Lord’. And there’s Jeff Lowe that may actually be a Greater? I really really hope HG also watches and analyzes soon because I want to ‘check my answers’ about who is what.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I have no issue with you talking about a programme within the context of narcissism, be my guest.

          2. fox says:

            You say that now, HG. Just wait, you’ll be very tired of this soon. But thank you for your blessing. 🙂

          3. HG Tudor says:

            You’ll see Fox that I moderate comments much further removed from the subject of narcissism so a conversation involving narcissists or suspected narcissists in a programme is not a problem

          4. Anm says:

            If she killed her husband, there is no way that is the work of a midrange narcissist. Charging and convicted Joe was easy, because he is a Lesser. IF carol killed her husband, she did it in a way, that not a single form of evidence was created to be used against her. The police did an investigation, and she was the main suspect, but they found nothing on her. She also spoke from a position of strength, not midrange narc garbage. Last but not least, look how quick she is to take the millionaires money, and change his will, and become the star of the show, and get her estranged family and cop brother to help her ties loose ends after her husband’s death. She literally could do it overnight and effortlessly in a macheveillien manner. However, when I read why people think she killed her husband, it’s all because she was cold about him, and her “tone”. I dont think she needed to be remorseful about his death, the relationship was over, and there was just no feelings left between them

        3. fox says:

          Hmm Anm, you raise some good points, maybe I’m not giving Carole enough credit. She definitely is pretty calculating.

      1. Anm says:

        k you Thank

        1. theletterafterj says:

          My pleasure Anm
          Joe Exotic is quite the character.

    3. Anm says:

      The deal with Carol’s ex husband that I am leaning towards, is that there is a probability that Carol DID NOT kill her ex husband. She may be a narcissist, but she also may not have killed him. Her ex husband was traveling atleast once a month to Costa Rica, owned his own planes, was trying to move his assets and money from USA to Costa Rica, and they even stated he liked younger women and had a girlfriend down there. If you were married to Carol, and also had another ex wife and kids who were money hungry, and you knew that you were facing a lifetime of litigation, wouldn’t you just up and move to Costa Rica? He had the money, the mentality, and the connections/
      relationships to do it.

      1. MommyPino says:

        Good point Anm, I was just thinking the same thing as I have written in my earlier comment. Just because someone is a narcissist and has no empathy towards her spouse who died (disappeared or killed? I haven’t watched the show yet), doesn’t mean that they did it. Narcissists just don’t have empathy, period. They have no empathy whether they are innocent or guilty. I am curious as to what evidence they have that pins her aside from her lack of empathy.

        1. Ashley says:

          The sheriff is very very suspicious of her. If she is behind it, the huge meat grinder is one way to not have evidence lol & I think I read somewhere the septic tank was also not there at the time. Many ways to not have actual evidence in this situation especially when the technology was not there back then. All I can say is where there’s smoke there’s fire! The sheriff is also suspicious of others, in that case it would be a carefully orchestrated plot. The whole social media world is doing those dances to the Carole Baskin song & everyone thinks she did it, that’s what made me get into it. That song gets stuck in my head!! Here are the lyrics incase you didn’t hear the song 🤣

          Carole Baskin
          Killed her husband, whacked him
          Can’t convince me that it didn’t happen
          Fed him to tigers
          They snackin’
          What’s happenin’
          Carole Baskin

          1. Ashley says:

            This on YouTube is the perfect example of Joe Exotic being a lesser. Perfect for anyone who needs a laugh right now 🤣🤣


            This is my favorite Joe Exotic quote: “I’ve had some kinky sex; I have tried drugs through the younger years of my life. I am broke as shit. I have a judgement against me from some b*tch down there in Florida.”
            🤣🤣🤣🤣 his redneck voice makes me laugh so hard

        2. Anm says:

          There wasn’t any evidence that would be court admissible. Even though Joe Exotic ends up in prison for being found guilty of murder for hire, to kill Carol, the narration of the story is of Joe Exotics Malign Campaign against Carol, and how he wants to “expose her” for what she really is, and to take her down. He dug up dirt about her life, and he wants to present that she is a bitch. The revenge campaign is triggered by Carol wanting to shut down Joe’s trashy private zoo.

          1. Violetta says:

            Narc-on-Narc action: coming soon to your streaming service! (Parental Guidance advised, although some of you PNs are worse for your kids than this series.)

          2. Anm says:

            Violetta, lol. Clever

          3. MommyPino says:

            Lol Violetta, thankfully for my kids, no PNs and only age appropriate shows. 😊

          4. Violetta says:

            That’s OK, if they manage to have political debates with all the social distancing, I’m sure they’ll be lots of Narc-on-Narc action for the whole family.

          5. mommypino says:

            🥗 😋

          6. fox says:

            I really need to dig deeper into Carole’s case to see how well it was handled. It would be awesome to have a true crime documentary presenting both sides of her case. Her ex husband did sound like the kind of guy who might simply abscond, but then again if the tigers ate him I doubt there would be much evidence of it, so it’d be a perfect crime. Hmmm.

          7. Ashley says:

            I listened to something last night & was reminded that she installed the new septic tank the VERY NEXT DAY after she reported her husband missing! So I think she fed him to the tigers & the remains the tigers didn’t eat she put in that new septic tank like Joe said lol

  9. Tired says:


    I haven’t had a problem telling the normals I’ve chosen to share with.
    They’ve told me he’s a phony. I showed them my proof . They are disgusted by his behavior. Even without proof they believed me, they’ve known me my whole life. Some of them have caught a glimpse of his simmering inappropriate anger.
    As for what he tells others, I cannot control that, but they don’t know me at all. However, if I showed them ( whoever they are) my documentation they’d know what a skillful liar he is .

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You have no need to prove what he is to other people, indeed to do so is a breach of no contact and is using up valuable resources which should be used to defend yourself, is increasing your emotional thinking and risks retaliation from the narcissist. See the Knowledge Vault and access Smearing and Smear Campaigns as this is highly relevant to the situation you are referring to.

      1. Tired says:


        The only people I already shared proof with are close family. I have no intention of revealing my proof to others until a divorce is in process.
        At that point I don’t fear retaliation from him, I’ve never put a foot wrong, he has absolutely zero to use against me . He on the other hand will be fucked .

        1. Kim e says:

          Hello. Going to interject if I may. You say you have never misstepped and he has nothing to hold against you. That is from your perspective. From his perspective you are the devil, have done him wrong, taken advantage of him, used all his money, slept with his best friend and your sister at the same time…….the list goes on forever. He will make things up not knowing he is making them up and drag out your escape and healing for a very long time.
          It does not matter what anybody thinks about him. As your ET clears you will realize that. You will also come to realize that not all the agreeable people now will be there for you
          Just some thoughts.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            And valid thoughts they are’ Kim.

          2. Violetta says:

            Kim E:

            Man, you know the drill cold!

          3. Kim e says:

            Sometimes I am a slow learner but my fog is lifting…………..
            But thanks. Your comment got me right in my trait of pride…LOL

  10. christianmelchizedek says:

    3…6…9…my favorite numbers, speak to me H.G

    1. Violetta says:

      He’s busy with more important things. You still haven’t said anything ’bout my mama. C’mon, let’s have it. (Won’t do you any good dissing Mr. Tudor’s mama, because he’ll just agree with you.)

    2. Tired says:

      What a dickhead . You must be like my narc , ZERO friends , so you come to forums like this to stir shit because you have nobody else to talk to . Pathetic. Loser .

    3. lisk says:

      Narcissism is one thing. Looney tunes is another.

      And, sometimes, there is both.

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