Save the Children

SAVE THE CHILDREN

 

If there is one thing which will often scupper an attempt to escape our clutches, it is the existence of children. On the one hand the existence of children created by you and our kind often results in you continuing to endure the relationship for the sake of the children rather than separate. On the other hand, even if you do decide that it is better to separate than stay with our kind, you are rarely able to truly escape because of the shared connection that exists because of the children. Even though you wish to escape the roller coaster existence of being with our kind, as an empathic person you behave fairly and recognise that the children should see their other parent and thus you either make provision or allow for contact to continue between our kind and the children which in turn means that there must inevitably remain contact between you and us. You may however take the draconian step of deciding that it is in the best interests of the children to have no contact with the narcissistic (although usually you only realise the other parent is abusive rather than narcissistic at this juncture) parent and cut all contact off. This then results in our kind turning to formal means through the courts to establish contact with the child or children again.

Your concerns in respect of the involvement of our kind in the raising of children cover numerous factors.

  1. You are concerned that our behaviour will affect the children so that they in turn become narcissists;
  2. You are worried that our behaviour leads to the children witnessing abusive behaviour towards you which will upset the children;
  3. You are concerned that our behaviour will lead to the children not receiving a stable and nurturing upbringing;
  4. You are worried that the children will be used as pawns between you and us and adversely influence so they are turned against you;
  5. You are concerned by our failing to provide emotional and financial support which will in turn impact on the children; and
  6. You are worried that our behaviours will effectively spoil what should be happy moments in childhood.

These, along with others, are legitimate concerns. It becomes especially difficult for you when you find that you face a battle between doing what is right for a child even though this may clash with what they want. They want to spend time with us but you see such time as toxic and having an influence on the child (who as a child cannot see or comprehend what is happening) which is at best unhelpful and at worst downright damaging. How do you deal with a situation where you need to do what is right and best for a child, even though they will not see this at the time? First of all, what must you understand about our attitude towards children and parenting?

  1. Children are regarded as appliances by us. There is no distinction made for the fact that they are children nor that we are their parent. We see children as appliances and devices which are extension of ourselves and therefore there to do our bidding. You should never be under any illusion that a narcissistic parent loves the child. Do not be fooled into thinking that any benign act exhibited by our kind is a manifestation of love towards a child. It is not;
  2. This pervading mind set means that children will be used in order to gather fuel. This will be done directly by obtaining fuel from them. Initially this will manifest as wanting to spoil them when we have time with them so that their positive responses to this will provide us with positive fuel. We will upset, anger and frustrate children in addition to draw negative fuel as and when it is deemed appropriate. This is not done because the positive fuel has become stale (as is the case when devaluation occurs in the context of an intimate partner primary source) but is an adjunct of wanting to achieve some other aim. The two most popular aims are control and triangulation. We will provoke a negative fuel response from children in order to exert control over them, for instance, taking a toy away or forbidding them to do something that they enjoy such as watching a certain television programme or being allowed some sweets. This reinforces our control. A child is no different from any other appliance and must be subjected to our control. This control is not exerted for the benefit of the child, for instance, stopping the child from eating sweets every day because it is unhealthy, but is only done so we can establish control. In terms of triangulation, the negative emotional response will be achieved for the purposes of triangulating you. For instance, we may suggest to the child that mummy does not love the child so it becomes upset. We only care about the reaction, not the well-being of the child. We may say that the child cannot do something on your instruction, in order to both upset the child and thus gain negative fuel and at the same time smear you through this triangulation. Thus, when negative fuel is sought from a child it arises in conjunction with the desire to control and/or to triangulate.
  3. The traits and achievements of the child are up for grabs in the same way that we steal and acquire traits from adults in order to furnish our construct and make ourselves look even more appealing. Our sense of entitlement is such that the child has only won the race, come top of the class, swum that distance, secured a place on a vacation scheme as a consequence of our brilliance. We will remind you, the child and third parties that this is the case. Repeatedly.
  4. We will smear and brief against you at every available opportunity. Irrespective of the reasons why the relationship between you and us ended, we will not rise above the desire for smearing for the sake of the children. If there is an opportunity to take a pot shot at you, it will be taken. The needs of the children do not ever come before our needs. Thus if they are upset by what we say about you, we receive fuel and do not care how it affects them. If they begin to dislike you because we suggest you are too strict, we will not counter that but rather we will cultivate this position to our advantage.
  5. Just like you, children can cause criticism to us. Rather than soak it up as a mature, well-adjusted parent would, we will lash out when there is a perceived or actual criticism of us delivered by the words and/or actions of the child. This will as ever result in the ignition of fury and the manifestation of heated fury or cold fury. We will sulk with a child, turn away from them if they want support and/or shout at them. The fact they are a child is meaningless to us. The fact we as a parent owe obligations to them to behave in a mature and responsible fashion to them does not matter because our needs come first.
  6. We have no sense of responsibility or obligation to children. A lesser narcissist will see no need to maintain maintenance payments and will be content not to see work. A greater may well make such payments, not because he cares about the children but it is done to show to everybody else how generous he is and also to make you look bad if your financial contributions are not as substantial. The payment or otherwise of financial support will be used as a carrot and stick against you throughout the duration of childhood. We will only become involved in the lives of the children if we regard there as being some kind of benefit to us. Their emotional needs, education, safety etc. are irrelevant to us. We will attend a school performance not to show support to the child so they feel happy, but to show to other parents that we apparently love and support the child, so we gain fuel and infuriate you. We regard obligations as beneath us, we have no sense of accountability, our sense of entitlement means we can do as we please, our lack of guilt or conscience means there is no mechanism causing us to adopt an alternative stance.
  7. Understand that children are pawns which will ALWAYS be used to our advantage. Whether it is to bind you to us during the golden period, to make us look good to others, to draw fuel, to exert control, to triangulate, to perpetuate abuse and so forth, our interactions with our children are governed by our needs. In the same way that our interactions with you as intimate partner, or our involvement with an inner circle friend, or our dealing with a stranger are all governed by our needs first, the same is applicable to children.
  8. Attempting to curtail our involvement with the children is seen as a criticism to us, irrespective of how morally and factually correct your action may be. That is irrelevant to us. We will use the court system for our purposes. We do not wish to spend time with our children for their sake, but instead it is for our sake. We may find it boring having them but if we know the fact they stay with us one night a week upsets and angers you, we will do it in order to draw this fuel from you and therefore we will use the court system to fight. It is not a fight for the benefit of the children. It is a fight for the maintenance of our needs – fuel, control, triangulation etc.

With this mind set of ours now apparent in our interactions with you and the children, how do you deal with us?

  1. Minimise the interaction you have with us. Establish a system for messages to be sent by e-mail or text. If this is deviated from by a telephone call, do not take the call but allow voice mail to pick up the call and then you can establish how best to respond thereafter and you will not provide fuel by being tricked into answering a call. If possible, prevent any face to face contact between you and us concerning the children. We draw the most fuel from seeing your emotional reactions face to face. Remove this (where practical) and you are denying us fuel. For instance, utilise the assistance of other family members or friends for the handover of the children until such an age as when they can use transport or walk between venues safely.
  2. Ensure all communications are to the point, business-like and contain no emotion. This again denies us fuel. Establish a five-minute rule so that you never immediately respond to our communications (when you are more likely to do so in an emotional fashion as we try to provoke you). If five minutes is too short, extend the time.
  3. By denying us fuel we will (initially) try to provoke you in different ways concerning arrangements and interaction with the children. Weather that storm and because we must obtain fuel we will have to seek it elsewhere. You are not a viable source so we will eventually look to obtain fuel from you less and less. You will also eventually notice that this manifests by us losing interest in the children. Remember, we are not interested in the children per se but how they as appliances can serve us.
  4. You will face an ongoing battle between your influence and our influence. This is deliberate as it is used to provoke you into confronting us about what we say about you, what we say to the children and what we do with them. We want you to engage. You must resist the need to do so. Remember, you will not make us change. We will not listen to you. We want to control you and draw fuel from you. We use the children to achieve this. Accordingly, if the children comment that we are making disparaging comments about you: –
  5. Do not confront us about the issue, it is futile;
  6. Do not seek to influence the view of the child by saying “Dad is a bad person” this will trouble the child and the response will be conveyed to us which will secure Thought Fuel for us and also provide us with further ammunition to use against you for your comment. Instead, move on to discussing something else  and the child is likely to forget about the comment. If the child persists in wanting to discuss the matter, then explain that Dad does things differently to you and then move on. Provide reassurance and listen to the child but do not, however tempting it may be, do or say anything disparaging as this plays into our hands. Your role is to maintain a positive influence for your children as often as you are able. By doing this (and starving us of fuel so the interaction will lessen) your positive influence will progressively outweigh our negative influence. The more you expose your children to a positive influence and avoid walking into our traps and playing into our hands, you will tip the balance so that they will, through the effluxion of time and exposure to this positive influence flourish under it and make their own minds up.
  7. In a similar fashion to how you must deal with a smear campaign, do not tell the children what to think, but allow them to make up their own minds. This will be difficult at first and you will no doubt find yourself on the receiving end of hurtful and challenging behaviour. Keep in mind that this is our influence (not what the child really thinks) and that as you weather the storm, the effects of your positive influence will eventually manifest. As the children become older you can present them with independent evidence of behaviour (not just hearsay and say so) so they can evaluate this for themselves and make their own minds-up. Like third parties, children do not want to be involved in a conflict between two people and they do not want to be told what to do. Cater for this and you will minimise disruption and increase your positive influence.
  8. Your approach is one of ensuring the “light side” overcomes the “dark side”. This can only be achieved by repeated reinforcement of positive behaviour and influence. If you engage in behaviours similar to ours, you enter onto our home turf and you will not only encourage us to keep going with our behaviours but you will find there is a negative outcome for both you and the children.
  9. If our behaviour is serious in terms of impact on the children – for instance violence or neglect – involve the relevant authorities. You will not be able to cause us to recognise we have done anything wrong because we either do not recognise that we have or we will not admit it for the purposes of maintaining control.
  10. If you regard it as appropriate, save messages and e-mails which exhibit our behaviour and allow the child access to them when an adult. This is again the presentation of independent evidence when they are in a position to make their own minds up. You must not engage in a popularity contest or sling mud; you will lose as this is playing into our hands.
  11. If you find yourself having to engage with us through the court system, ensure those representing you are familiar with our kind. Rely on independent evidence as much as possible rather than “he said, she said”. Recognise that we are experts at duping people and our lawyers, your lawyers, psychologists, court officials and judges can just as easily be duped. If a hearing does not go your way, resist the urge to lash out at us – it is of course just fuel – and instead continue to adopt a positive approach towards your children. That must always be your focus. We want you to engage with us and we will use children and the court system to provoke you to do this. Fail to engage and you take away much of our power.

It is hard. A narcissistic parent is a fact. We will not go away so long as we are getting what we want or believe we can do so. Prevent us from getting what we want, demonstrate to us that we are unlikely to get what we want and we will turn our attention elsewhere. This will then allow your positive influence to have an even greater bearing on the children and undo any harmful effects from our toxic influence. You will face challenges but by trying to address our behaviour, cater for it and pander to it, you will not succeed in protecting your children. I have seen this first hand.

49 thoughts on “Save the Children

  1. autiempath says:

    I just got back the NDC results.

    My son is a normal!
    He has some impairment with regards to cognitive function.
    Thats where some of the problems are comming from.
    Iam so happy about this!

    1. WhoCares says:

      Now I wish I *had* made a run out to the wine store!

      1. autiempath says:

        WhoCares,

        Haha, we can cheers with tea 💓

        1. WhoCares says:

          autiempath – Sounds better! I never made it to the wine store anyway. Not worth it. My last forage for food and supplies was was greatly protracted by having to avoid angry lessers in the downtown core nearest me.
          I have lots of tea and coffee on hand! ☕

          1. autiempath says:

            WhoCares.

            I know what you mean by avoiding angry lessers.

            Iam not a great fan of alcohol anyway.

            I have now a delicious blend of liquorice, lemon balm and chamonille tea.
            So cheers! 😊

          2. WhoCares says:

            autiempath,

            That sounds lovely.
            My fav right now is white ginseng energy tea.
            Cheers!

          3. autiempath says:

            WhoCares,

            Thats sounds delicious to.

    2. MommyPino says:

      Autiempath I’m so happy for you!! What a wonderful news! ❤️

      1. autiempath says:

        MommyPino

        Thank you! I feel so happy now, celebrating 💓

    3. Kim e says:

      autiempath
      🎉🎉🎉🍷🎉🎉🎉Wonderful news. 🥳🥳

      1. autiempath says:

        Thank you, yes its is!🌞

    4. Violetta says:

      So glad for your news!

      1. autiempath says:

        Thank you Violetta!

        1. Violetta says:

          I understand your anxiety. I’d rather hear *I* was a full narc than that a child of mine was, and I had passed it to the next gen.

          1. autiempath says:

            Violetta,

            Same here!
            It would be a massive feeling of guilt for me because of that.
            I was al over the place, these few days.

            Now iam so happy again with this good news!

  2. eternalflame48 says:

    Lots of useful information in this one. Taking it all in. Thank you.

    1. WhoCares says:

      eternalflame48,

      If you anticipate having to co-parent with a narcissist; HG’s assistance package on co-parenting is sanity saving!

  3. Anm says:

    I am about to file for custody modification with the narcissist again. One of the things I am going to implement, is making sure not only parenting plan is detailed, but put in provisions of detailed plan for what will happen if the narcissist is in contempt of court. The reason is, narcissist who are possessive will always find loopholes or think the rules are below them. Even when it’s bad enough to file a contempt motion, you still have to go through the money, time, effort, and even then a judge may not do anything. So you state what the narcissist will lose if they keep up with bad behavior.
    Example:
    Say you have a judge that favors joint medical decision making, so you know it will be extremely difficult to get them to award you sole medical decision making. You also know that it won’t work because the narcissist is prone to medical neglect,

    Then the order will specifically state that if the child becomes sick or injured and the narcissist parent doesn’t take the child to get medical help, the narcissist parent will lose all medical decision making. Try to make it in the order that there won’t even be a hearing about it. The parent will just have to send some type of affidavit to the judge stating this was in the order, this happened, and the custody order now needs flipped. I have had a couple of friends say that they started switching to this method and it works

    1. lisk says:

      By “it works,” do you mean it work in terms of the narcissist actually complying or that the narcissist loses medical decision making?

      1. Anm says:

        Lisk,
        Ok, I am going to correct myself nothing works for them. Some narcissist do want to get on with their lives. My sons dad is like that. He would never sue me for custody. But if you have a narcissist who you suspect will not follow court orders, try to get the final say with everything. If that’s impossible at the moment, say the narcissist has medical decision making, and the judge is charmed by him, the put in the parenting plan what would happen if the narcissist denies your child medical care, or withholds your child from your christmas vacation you have planned. Try to think ahead. But yes, you could use it as a way to flip custody. You could say, “we can try shared legal decision making, but if he messes up, I will get final say moving forward”. Or you can even say “we can have 50/50 parenting time. But if he moves, I get primary custody and residency so that the kids will be sure to stay at their schools”. You can present to the courts that you are willing to try to work on coparenting to the narcissist, but specifically state in the plan what you want to happen WHEN the narcissist screws up. If you want sole legal decision making, put that in the plan for part of the contempt sanctions.

      2. Anm says:

        So in other words, many narcissist experts are going to tell you to be very specific about custody orders and the rules they have to follow. My advice is, take it even a step further to state what will happen if they dont follow the orders and rules.

  4. Feather says:

    Reading this gave me the first sign of hope that I could get us out. The only thing he had over me was her.
    When she was born his children from a previous relationship would come to stay with us. This is when I saw him with his 12 year old daughter and it was all WRONG. I never saw anything I could report. She was an overtly sexual child but that isn’t a crime. Once, he entered the bathroom while she was in the shower. When I confronted him about it he said ‘What are you talking about we’re family’. By this time I had found HG’s work and understood that screaming this from the rooftop would not work out in the best interest of my child so I purchased the How to co parenting with a narcissist assistance package.
    Now we have been free from the narcissist for nearly 4 months. I have reported my observations to the authorities. The court will determine what’s next for my daughter.
    Amazingly, in this past 4 months, my little girl has developed so much. I have in the past referred to her as the half narc baby, bundle of joy she was not. She was quite odd. She would snap the souls of little old ladies trying to make her smile with her glare. She rarely smiled. She did not speak much. She wouldn’t call me mum until she was 18 months old and she only ever smirked at her own jokes. Now she talks, she plays, she is social, she laughs and all day long we just smile.
    Thank you HG

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

      1. Feather says:

        You are a freaking genius

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Agreed.
          But not a genius freak, an important distinction.

  5. autiempath says:

    Are here any parents of adult Narcissist children?
    Iam afraid that my son is a Narcissist.
    I would like to ventilate about it.
    How do one handle this?
    I have unconditional love for him.
    And so many feelings of guilt. 😕
    What to do?

    1. WhoCares says:

      autiempath,

      Just last night I was talking with a friend who knows her eldest (adult) child is a narcissist. She endured much mistreatment from him over the years, she has gone no contact with him. She suffers some guilt and there are very few people she can discuss this with. It is such a personal decision about how to proceed, no matter how you look at it. I directed her to HG’s work.

      I don’t know what I would do if I found myself in a similar situation. I would most certainly consult with HG though.

      My heart goes out to you.

      1. autiempath says:

        WhoCares. Thank you so much for your kind words.
        It makes me cry. 😢
        And i rarely cry.

        I did sent today the Narc Detector questionare answers to HG.
        Fingers crossed he is not a Narcissist.

        I hope your friend finds her way to this blog.

        I cannot have a good talk to anyone about this.
        My mother is deep in her emotional thinking.
        And then i feel guilty to explain to her all the red flags with logical thinking.

        I don’t know what to do eighter!
        I will find a way.

        1. WhoCares says:

          Autiempath,
          You know you can always vent here. There are people who will listen.
          And who will understand your pain.
          ❤️

          1. autiempath says:

            WhoCares,

            I know, and i will.

            💖

        2. Anm says:

          Autiempath,
          Allow yourselves to go through the grieving phase. Narcissism robs good people of happy moments that we will never get back. Even though your son maybe a narcissist, hopefully you can eventually come to a place of radical acceptance for what is. I am sure HG will be able to help you determine if you need to modify your relationship and expectations with your son, or if it calls for complete no contact.

          1. autiempath says:

            Anm,

            Thank you for your response.

            You are right, i now have to wait and see.
            And then i can deside what to do.
            And i know iam at the right place on this blog and with HG his consult.

            Still…vingers crossed.

    2. mommypino says:

      I hope that the Narc Detector result is negative Autiempath 💜

      I believe that my husband’s adult daughters are both narcissists. Although one of them was diagnosed as bipolar, I believe it was a misdiagnosis and that she really is a Lower MR and her older sister is an Middle MR. I have not done a narc detector on them yet so it is not official.

      They do a lot of manipulations on him to get what they want from him and if he doesn’t do they punish him with triangulation agains their mom or stepdad or they don’t talk to him or respond to his call for up to many months. I am No Contact with them and I try to give my husband the freedom to do whatever he wants with them so I don’t pay attention if he gives them money or whatever support still. But I know that he is always hurt whenever they don’t talk to him or don’t greet him on his birthday or Father’s Day etc. It is a very one-sided relationship and it needs someone to have a very strong boundary on what is acceptable and not acceptable and up to what extent the unconditional love is going to be demonstrated. He puts limits with his giving from what I know. And it also helps him that he has us (me and his young kids from me) as a distraction so his whole world doesn’t revolve around them so when he is given silent treatments he still has us to be happy with. So I think having other diversions like friends, activities, relationship, hobbies, projects, etc. will also help. Thankfully they are already adults so majority of your obligations have already been accomplished.

      1. autiempath says:

        MommyPino,

        Thank you for your response.

        I did read somewhere on this blog about your husband and his daughters, so iam very happy for your response.
        Although your situation is a bit different, But still, this is very helpful.

        I have to wait for the NDC results, it could be that his behaviour is not of a Narcissist.
        Iam not sure, i am high on my ET with this situation with him.

        And it is hard to not be angry at myself, because i made some mistakes that are pointed out on this article.

        I do to talk some logic in to myself, because i did not know al of this before.

        He is now 22 years old, so yes, i have most obligations accomplished.

        1. WhoCares says:

          autiempath,

          “it is hard to not be angry at myself, because i made some mistakes that are pointed out on this article.

          I do to talk some logic in to myself, because i did not know al of this before.”

          None of us would be here on the blog if we knew all of this beforehand.

          Regardless of the NDC outcome, moving forward, you have access to the most useful information here to evaluate your situation.

          I know that Windstorm has adult narcissist children. I am unsure if you have read any of her past posts (and she has not been around as of late) but she hasn’t gone NC with hers – although everyone’s situation is so unique.

          I think sometimes (less now though) of wanting time back… sometimes for my son, occasionally for me, but mostly for my father – I made such poor choices there. But none of us could have known what we know now.

          Allow some kindness for yourself autiempath.♥️

          1. autiempath says:

            WhoCares,

            I know about Windstorm, i read some comments.
            And i agree on that everyone’s situation is unique.
            For me it is helpful to compare.

            And yes, we cannot turn back time, and make different choices.

            So i have to allow some kindness for myself.
            I will.
            Thank you for the reminder.

          2. Lorelei says:

            Thoughtful reply Whocares. I think having adult children who are narcissists would be incredibly difficult but being kind to ourselves is equally very difficult but essential. I recall a similar worry that HG ironed out last year for me. Turns out my daughter is actually very empathic to a fault, as many of us have been. Either way a trajectory of moving forward is required. To be honest—there is great pain watching an empath child be beaten down by narcissism, if a child is a narcissist we are spared some pain associated with vulnerability they do not have. Either way the support here will guide her.

          3. Violetta says:

            “None of us would be here on the blog if we knew all of this beforehand.”

            I might’ve. I am so stubborn I won’t even listen to me until I’ve learned the hard way.

            My folks were always putting him down (down, down)
            They said he came from the wrong side of town
            (Whatcha mean when ya say that he came from the wrong side of town?)
            They told me he was bad
            But I knew he was sad
            That’s why I fell for the leader of the pack
            (Vroooommmmm)

        2. mommypino says:

          Autiempath, It isn’t fair for you to be angry at yourself for something that you were not aware before. My husband also occasionally tell me what he could have done differently but he was a really good dad to them. He was the one who did all of the grunt work in raising them. He was their mom and dad while still working although he allowed regular visits with their mom which is what he was regretful of because that’s where all of the drama comes from. Even his narcissistic daughters cannot deny that he was a good dad. He’s actually the best dad I have ever met and he is also an amazing dad to our kids. It wouldn’t be fair to blame him as well. We all make mistakes as parents and most of the time all that we can do is hope for the best outcome for our kids. None of us know everything from the start. He is a Normal and has been trying to look at the situation logically by ignoring provocations and just focusing on the fact that they will always be his kids whether he agrees with them or not. As Empaths we all have a tendency to beat ourselves up for every mistake. Oftentimes we need to extend the same kindness that we extend to others towards ourselves.

          1. MommyPino says:

            PS, Hopefully your son is not a narcissist but if ever he turns out to be one, please don’t blame yourself. The most loving parents make mistakes and nobody knows everything.

          2. autiempath says:

            MommyPino,

            Thank you for your supportive words.
            It could be that i see Narc’s everywhere.

            Also during this lockdown the pressure is high on people. They show more their true colours.

            Not for me its hard now, i love being alone and safe isolated.

            But i will be kind on myself.

    3. Kim e says:

      Autiempath
      Just sending hugs. ❤️

      1. autiempath says:

        Thank you Kim e. 💖

        1. Lorelei says:

          Good to hear you are pleased by the results.

          1. autiempath says:

            Lorelei,

            Thank you.

            Iam!

  6. About the eyes says:

    HG has cognitive empathy, no emotional empathy.

  7. karmicoverload says:

    HG, when you write like this, it’s very difficult to believe you have no empathy. This will be of such benefit to someone who is co-parenting with a narcissist.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      I have no emotional empathy. I understand my kind and provide that information to you for the purposes of my legacy, you also happen to benefit enormously from it also.

    2. Lorelei says:

      Agree and I’ll say it has been this sort of material that has my children quite unscathed by the nonsense of their useless father. They are happy, prefer my environment and are doing excellent in all areas. I’ll have tea now.

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