When Narcissists Collide : Trump Vs Biden



What do you get when an Upper Lesser Type B Narcissist collides with an Upper Mid Range Narcissist on television?

A bitter and chaotic 2020 US Presidential “debate”.

America : You Are being Conned


The fact is that many politicians and most political leaders are narcissists. It is a circular environment. To survive the political environment the skill set and mentality of the narcissist is the most effective. This then draws more and more politicians to that world which means in order to survive it, you are best off being a narcissist and on it goes. Not every leader is a narcissist and there are some notable exceptions (who they are and which ones are narcissists can be found in these links along with famous examples from other fields and genres, dive in, you will find confirmation and surprise – The Naughty Forty,

50 Further Famous Narcissists (inc When Famous Narcs Collide) ,  The Weighty Eighty (The Famous Analysed), 50 Famous Narcissists or Not? , The Shifty Fifty : 50 Famous Narcissists )

Last night, two political narcissists faced off. The incumbent, President Donald Trump who is an Upper Lesser Type B engaged in a televised metaphorical food fight with presidential candidate Joe Biden who is an Upper Mid Range narcissist. If you are unfamiliar with my categorisations of the different schools of narcissists then you can learn more about them here . However, I will give you a brief overview of the differing nature of these two individuals who are both narcissists.

President Trump does not know that he is a narcissist. He has no awareness at all. He is self-entitled, has an unwavering conviction that he is always right and anybody or anything else that challenges his perception of being right is, well wrong (“Fake news!”). He is not subtle at all. He is bold, brash, bullying and a braggart. Such traits serve him well in certain situations and create significant problems in others. He has no emotional empathy. He is right, if you do not agree you are wrong and your views count for nothing. He is right and if you disagree you will be ignored, shouted over or removed from your position. He is right and his narcissism rewrites history, conveniently ignores anything to the contrary and creates in him his wrecking ball mentality. He is arrogant, superior, utterly convinced of his effectiveness (“I am the expert”) and he does not hide his behaviour behind a facade. He will suggest grabbing your pussy or that she be locked up and if you do not like it, well too bad, because he is right and you are wrong, so hit the road Jack!  He knows he is going to solve everything and if you suggest he cannot, you are wrong and if you say it has not been solved, well, you do not know what you are talking about because you belong to the fake news media. Anything which challenges him is written off as incorrect, slanderous, invented and not worthy of a second glance. He steamrolls through everything and his black and white thinking, shared by all narcissists, is so apparent through his vocabulary of somethings being “great, great, really great” or “awful, horrible, really bad.” You are either with him or you are against him. Trump is belligerent and he does not care, he is of the view that he will upset some people but that is their problem. He knows that some people need to be told they are wrong and his style is direct and bombastic but he regards it as effective.  He subscribes to the position of you cannot make an omelette without breaking some eggs.

Presidential candidate Joe Biden does not know that he is a narcissist. He has no awareness at all. He is self-entitled, has an unwavering conviction he is always right, he is arrogant and can be haughty. He does operate a facade whereby his narcissism behaves whereby it has cultivated, on his behalf, an appearance of being decent, caring someone who is fighting “for the soul of the United States”. Whereas Trump is brash and in your face, Biden is more measured but that does not mean you will not see that fury from time to time. He will snap and he will lash out, but that aspect to his narcissism will not appear anywhere near as often as Trump´s haughtiness owing to the operation of the facade. Biden is of a greater level of intelligence which is part of the reason why he  is classified as Upper Mid Range. Whereas Trump is direct and to the point, Biden´s Mid Range classification means he is prone to long-windedness, self-indulgent monologues based on his perception of self-importance. He has no emotional empathy, he does have cognitive empathy so he is able to give the impression that he cares, but it is artificial. It is a means of asserting control and achieving The Prime Aims . He has at times demonstrated a degree of polish, he is not polished in his performances but can exhibit a degree of polish, part of being the Upper Mid Range Narcissist. Biden is prone to showing entitlement and a lack of awareness through his remarks but retains the Mid-Range belief that he did not mean to offend. He is able to understand why people may get upset by the things that he says and does (whereas Trump does not and more importantly he does not care because he knows he is right), but he did not intend for that to happen but the fact is he still made a haughty observation or a self-entitled observation without  any emotional empathy for its impact. He is blinded to the offence caused, some of the time, but can understand it after the event but only does so as part of false contrition in order to maintain control. There is more passive aggressive behaviour about Biden, but as an Upper Mid-Range Narcissist you will see flashes of rage and haughtiness based on self-perceived notions of superiority commensurate with the mindset of the narcissist.

This article is not here to discuss the comparative rights or wrongs of President Trump or Joe Biden, you can make your own minds up about that. Instead, this article provides you with insight into explaining for you why the behaviours you witnessed, if you watched the debate or read about it , happened as they did. I do this because nobody else in the media is explaining this for you. People may be unimpressed by the performance of the two individuals, they may criticise the lack of statesman like behaviour, they may question the lack of serious policy debate or they may feel the exchange made a mockery of a serious political matter, but what the majority of people do not realise is this – you were watching what happens when two narcissists collide.

You may think this debate was about who becomes POTUS. You may think that this was a show down between two politicians each trying to persuade the swing voters to vote for them. You may think that this was an exercise in demonstrating ability or fitness for office. Those things and more besides are what you are given to understand is happening. Indeed, it is what these unaware narcissists also believe they were doing, but it was not.

These two narcissists were seeking to achieve The Prime Aims and chief amongst those Prime Aims what Trump and Biden were seeking (but they did not know this because it is happening in their unconscious) is that they are seeking fuel (basically the emotional response of others) and control.

They want to assert control over each other, the audience in the studio, the audience watching on television, the audience that will watch repeats or extracts on the news, the audience that will write about the debate, the journalists, the bloggers, the people discussing it over coffee, by the water cooler, the radio host analysing it on the drive programme. Trump and Biden wanted that control because that is what their narcissism wants and must have; control and fuel.

The reason there was such a collision is because Trump must control Biden and Biden must control Trump. When Biden is criticising Trump´s handling of the Covid-19 pandemic he is threatening  Trump´s control. When this happens, Trump´s narcissism will not stand idly by, it must do something, so it causes Trump to respond by interrupting Biden as he seeks to assert control over Biden. If Trump was a Mid Range or Greater Narcissist he would have interrupted far less, indeed, possibly not at all and instead showed apparent good grace and manners by allowing Biden to speak and then he would have responded to the threat to his control by providing an answer which would seek to assert control over Biden by rejecting his attempt to control Trump. The response might be a polished one, made in an articulate manner referencing statistics or perhaps recalling some error on the part of Biden to demonstrate hypocrisy (hypocrisy being prevalent amongst narcissists). However, Trump is an Upper Lesser Type B  – a belligerent bruiser. So he has not time for letting the other person speak, he does not do polish, he goes for the jugular and is the pugilist that his narcissism makes him.

Such debates can be heated and impassioned. Some debates are where the relevant narcissist maintains an iron-rod of control, responding with glacial coolness, deftly scoring political points, using intellect and experience to preserve their facade whilst asserting control over their opponent. Deferential responses, supposedly respectful replies all done from within the facade but still seeking to assert control. Such performances come across to the unwitting viewer as professional, polished and statesmanlike. Where the responses are measured but passionate, the viewer sees a person committed to the cause, a believer in the principles of their political persuasions, but even so that individual, where he or she is a narcissist, is still seeking to assert control.

Given the two schools of narcissist that Trump and Biden are, the debate became chaotic and fractured. This is no surprise. Every time Trump sought to assert control over Biden, Biden´s narcissism caused him to respond by rejecting that attempt by asserting his own attempt over Trump. Biden´s response thus threatened Trump´s sense of control and thus he has to reject it. What you witnessed was a tennis match of manipulation and counter manipulation all in the name of control and fuel. Furthermore, their narcissism was fighting to assert control over one another AND at the same time was seeking to assert it over those asking the questions, those listening and watching. You believe the political stakes are very high – the control stakes were even higher.

What were some of the key moments from the debate and what was really going on?

  • Both candidates talked over one another. This was naturally each candidate trying to assert control over the other, failing to exhibit emotional empathy (since they have none) by showing patience and excellent listening skills, having no boundary recognition and acting out of self-entitlement. All hallmarks of narcissists.
  • President Trump interrupted Joe Biden 73 times. Trump will not respect the boundary of Biden´s observations, he has no truck with politely waiting his turn, his narcissism demands immediate action and interrupting someone, despite it being ill-mannered and impolite does not matter. In Trump´s world Biden needed to be interrupted because Biden was wrong and was talking nonsense. What was actually happening was that Trump needed to interrupt Biden to assert control over him.
  • President Trump repeatedly hectored Biden when the two discussed healthcare. Again, Trump´s need for control means he can talk when he talks (entitlement), he does not recognise the boundary of remaining silent to allow his opponent to speak, his lack of emotional empathy manifests in being rude and haranguing.
  • In response to this threat to control, Biden´s facade repeatedly fractured because of the level of sustained threat to the control. Ordinarily, the narcissism seeks to preserve the facade AND assert control, so a narcissist will not slap his wife at the dinner party, he will whisper a threat to her only she can hear to bring her under control whilst smiling at the rest of the table and preserving the facade. However, when there is a clash between control and the facade, control must win and thus the facade will be repeatedly fractured as was the case with Biden, hence his retort of calling Trump a “clown” (Verbal Insult). Hardly empathic respectful behaviour by calling POTUS a clown and evidence of his haughtiness driven by his narcissistic need for control.
  • When Biden was asked about expanding the number of Supreme Court judges, this challenged his control. In this instance, his narcissism selected Deflection and Silent Treatment as he refused to give an answer. This response was caused by his narcissism wanting to get control back.
  • Biden´s facade was fractured again under Trumps´repeated interruptions and hectoring which affected his control as he lashed out with “Will you shut up, man?” Hardly the behaviour of a political statesman and demonstrates how even the facade of an Upper Mid-Range Narcissist can give way under sustained threats to control. He followed up with “Keep yapping man.” (Contempt and Verbal Insult)
  • Trump resorted to Verbal Insult himself when responding to these threats to his control by goading Biden by describing Biden as having achieved nothing in 47 years of politics. A haughty and dismissive retort, sweeping away a lifetime of political involvement, but Trump does not care, his narcissism needed control and it was going after it in a direct fashion.
  • Trump´s control was threatened when he was asked if he was going to denounce the far-right group Proud Boys. Trump was not going to do so because such denouncing would have conceded control to the questioner and conceded control within the electorate at large Instead, his narcissism opted for him answering with “Proud Boys, stand back and stand by, but I’ll tell you what, somebody’s got to do something about antifa and the left.” (Flattery and Deflection) He rejected the threat to his control by the question and asserted control over the Proud Boys with his remark, his narcissism was not going to let him lose control over part of his likely supporters.
  • Trump was asked if he would encourage his supporters to be peaceful if results of the election were unclear. “I’m encouraging my supporters to go into the polls and watch very carefully,” he responded. This question threatened his control by suggesting that POTUS was someone who would support potentially unlawful action to reject an unclear election outcome. Trump dealt with it through another deflecting answer and then asserting control over his supporters by issuing an instruction to them, denoting his grandiosity in maintaining that his supporters will follow his instructions.
  • When Trump said Biden would be at the behest of the left of the Democratic Party over health and environmental policy,  this was again an assertion of control over Biden and a threat to his control. Mr Biden responded: “I am the Democratic Party right now”. This is an excellent example of the arrogant grandiosity of an Upper Mid Range Narcissist and evidences the narcissist dynamic of seeing others as an extension of himself. Biden regards himself as the Democratic Party and his response was an assertion of control through superiority and a rejection of Trump´s challenge.
  • Trump waded in with another Provocation through Insult by getting personal. He brought up the past drug use of Biden’s son, Hunter, who was discharged from the navy in 2014 for taking cocaine. This challenge to control again rattled the facade of Mr Biden causing him to shout over  Trump, (Entitlement) Biden said: “My son, like a lot of people, like a lot of people you know at home, had a drug problem. He’s overtaken it. He’s fixed it.”
  • Biden said Trump had “panicked” over the coronavirus pandemic, which has killed more than 200,000 Americans.”A lot of people died and a lot more are going to die unless he gets a lot smarter, a lot quicker,” Biden said (Provocation, Insult). Trump objected to Biden using the word “smart.” Trump fought back against that threat to his control with “You graduated either the lowest or almost the lowest in your class,” the president said. “Don’t ever use the word smart with me. Don’t ever use that word.” (Insult, Threat).

This bickering and haranguing went back and forth and meant that any substantive discussion was largely lost. Reaction around the world to the debate generally summed it up as an unedifying experience which portrayed American politics in a poor light with the repeated mud-slinging, interruptions, heckling and insults.

What none of the media outlets did was explain why it panned out as it did. The debate was this way because two narcissists fought repeatedly to assert control and to reject threats to their control alongside gathering fuel. They chiefly behaved in this manner towards one another but also with regard to the wider audience. Understand that this is what is driving their behaviours and it provided you with an excellent example of what happens when two narcissists of their schools collide. Digest it and understand it, because you will be getting more of this in the weeks ahead.

America : You Are being Conned

Please share this article to allow people to understand what is at the heart of the Presidential election and to allow people to gain understanding of narcissism as a whole



435 thoughts on “When Narcissists Collide : Trump Vs Biden

  1. Mercy says:

    It surprised me less that Trump tested positive for covid than it did that I had frost on my car window for the first time this year.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      No frost in January?

    2. Mercy says:

      Ha ha ok first frost of the season

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Ha ha, agreed.

    3. Sweetest Perfection says:

      It surprised me Melania also did.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        She has to do as she’s told.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Ergo, this is just staged, you think?

          1. HG Tudor says:

            I do.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            So do I.

          3. NJFilly says:

            So do I.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            He married me first, Njfilly. Lol

          5. V says:

            So he can be the strong hero and it Wasn’t That Bad?

          6. NJFilly says:

            What do you mean he married you first?

          7. HG Tudor says:

            “I do”.

          8. Sweetest Perfection says:

            HG got it haha.

          9. NJFilly says:

            Oh, I see. Ha ha!

          10. Eternity says:

            SP, that’s what I think,but I am not sure.

          11. Sweetest Perfection says:

            If HG says he’s lying, he is.

          12. Eternity says:

            Thank you , I thought so

          13. Renarde says:


            My brother is of the same opinion. We were only talking about it last night.

            The thing I cant understand is how he’s going to get around the postal unless he just cancels it. I guess he must have to now.

            Wasnt there meant to be a key rally in Florida today?

          14. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I don’t know, Renarde. I have been signing up to some of his rallies lately with my friends -obviously without attending- just to occupy chairs. Hey, if you think about it, the less people that go watch him, the less people exposed to covid. We are saving lives in many senses!

        2. Eternity says:

          HG, is there a possibility that Trump and his wife dont have COVID19 in order to get votes. I saw him on TV this morning and he looked fine.

          1. HG Tudor says:


          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            “He looked fine” is a relative observation, I presume.

  2. burntkrispykeen says:

    Now that Trump has The Rona, I wonder if he’ll blame Biden for infecting him? 😷 The morning following the debate, Trump was requesting that he wanted to have Biden’s ears inspected, as Trump believed Biden had a listening device installed, to feed him lines during the debate. Of course, this coronavirus infection could just be “fake news.” It would be a perfect way to play hooky from the next debate. Is this a brilliant plan devised by a wise campaign manager? 🙂

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Yes that’s what I thought, burntkrispykeen. I asked HG about that in another comment still in moderation.

      1. burntkrispykeen says:

        Ha! We always did think alike. Must be that whole ENFP thing. I’ve been reading your comments, SP. Glad to see that you are doing well. 🙂

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          It probably is! Thanks, BKK, I’m glad to see you are ok too. I am on and off the blog, though I like to check on new articles and other material posted by HG. I am wondering whether he would delight us with some more poetry reading this Autumn…

          1. HG Tudor says:

            There’s every chance.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I’ll be waiting with antici… passion.

          3. Violetta says:


            But when narcs collide
            Said Trump to his (latest) bride
            I’m going to take me some Pine-Sol in a pill

          4. Violetta says:

            Browning’s”My Last Duchess” for Halloween, please! Horrible narcy narrator, scarier than any H’wood monster because it’s quite possible.

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Violetta, my dear! I just heard through the grapevine that you got a position! I’m sorry, I totally missed that, I’ve been off the blog for a while. My sincere congratulations!!! I hope you’re happy in it, as happy as one can be in academia. Feoh to you.

          6. Renarde says:


            Hands off! I propositioned Hg with Porphyrias Lover months ago!

            But My Last Duchess is a good one!

          7. Violetta says:

            Sweet P:

            I missed your congratulations–on-line training all last week. Today’s my first day on-site. Needless to say, I go little sleep, and much of that consisted of riding the subway and suddenly realizing that I hadn’t checked which line I was supposed to take and not recognizing any of the stops.

            They don’t even have a subway here.

          8. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Haha I totally understand, Violetta. Welcome to the on-line, final destination: YouTube/Canvas/Zoom. Have a good trip, and mind the gap!

          9. Violetta says:


            It’s not academia. My exasperation with F.U. and my jonesing for squishy babies whom I used be able to cuddle after Mass before lockdown converged into a job working in the infant room of a care center.

            My ambitious mother might have been horrified, but the irony is they pay better and have better benefits and security than academia for an adjunct. There are few tenure-track positions out there, and at some point, I realized that I did not want to move from East Bumblebee to West Bumblebee every 2 years or so, since even the renewable lectureships only give you slightly more security than term-to-term adjuncting. At that, most of the places I interviewed with had eliminated their literature programs, and there was decreasing autonomy in designing our own Rhetoric & Composition courses.

            My grad school nemesis Evil Bitch-Monster From Hell and my 2nd reader She-Who-Must would undoubtedly sneer at my doing anything so pre-feminist. It bothers me that it bothers me, but before I ever run into them at a conference or something, I suspect I’ll have ample time to.come up with the requisite snotty answer:

            A) I’d rather wipe baby rears than kiss the administration’s;

            B) Pampers are never as full of shit as the Critical Theory people;

            C) Nothing like a nice, raw baby.

            Other suggestions will be welcomed.

          10. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Violetta: “they pay better and have better benefits and security than academia for an adjunct.” That’s all you need.
            Many people in academia would look down to anyone leaving this world to do something completely different; in actuality, they are scared that they would not know how to survive outside of it. I think it is fabulous that you have the skills and the initiative to adapt to a different profession in these extraordinarily difficult circumstances to find a job. The rest is just superfluous.
            The adjuncts that work with us don’t receive any benefits, and even the salary they receive seems purely symbolic. I would only justify having adjuncts provided they teach on the side of having another full-time position. Otherwise, it’s inviable.
            The phrase “from East Bumblebee to West Bumblebee” made me laugh. I often complained to my husband when I was on the search for a tenure track post that it seems that most American universities are built in the middle of nowhere so that the students focus on studying and the professors focus on publishing, because there’s nothing else to do! Yes, Cornell, what a nice program in no man’s land Ithaca. Get a taste of being trapped in your own life, just like Penelope!
            Tenure is not what it used to be. It does not bring the sense of permanence and stability it conveyed anymore. I do happen to be in charge of managing tenure and promotions, and I look at these portfolios with the guilt of someone who knows she is selling smoke. The Administration only thinks in terms of quantity while professors see the world in terms of quality; that’s why you need “infiltrates” like you or me into the dark side to be able to translate for each side and make things equitable. Not an easy task when you have a dean that has the personality of a wet sock. And about Critical Theory people: there are two types: the ones that do Critical Theory because they think they are nice people by talking the talk even though, like you say, they are full of shit (i.e.: my narc), and the ones that got into it because they really believe in Social Justice, so they talk the talk while also walking the walk. I won’t tell you who belongs to that latter group.

            Congratulations once more, you have secured a job that pays you well thanks to having the necessary versatility, and to me, that’s more laudable than presenting a paper full of empty terminology in a zoom conference or breaking your brain trying to justify the value of literature in a culture of STEM.
            PS: this message is for Evil Bitch-Monster and She-Who-Must: working in the infant room of a care center is ten times more feminist than teaching about feminism but not providing child care rooms on campus, which is the situation in ALL American universities.

          11. Lily says:

            @SweetestPerfection: I certainly can’t survive outside academia (tried & even the outside world said “Go back”) and I am still licking my wounds after getting rejected by Cornell (they have a strong team in my field- so it wasn’t about the location).

            As for tenure, I increasingly see how my peers are focussed on the quantity. Quality could be signalled on the basis on the journals one publishes in, but often it’s political- whether the editor/ae assigns your paper to a friendly reviewer and whether or not your paper eventually gets published now depends a lot on your coauthors. Sometimes the most flimsiest papers get published in the best journals.

            I am surprised about your observation on the CT group. I am in an allied field that is all about contemporary issues (e.g. increasing mentions in HBR or MIT Sloan Review or Forbes), but I have been baffled by the presence of those who display strong narcissistic personality traits. They are good talkers and I fell for it hard.

          12. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Lily, I am sorry you feel that way and that you feel you were rejected by Cornell. You weren’t. They just happened to choose another candidate for a million reasons that have nothing to do with you or your accomplishments and that may go from saving money on a candidate that doesn’t need relocation to going for the internal option or realizing they didn’t have a specific course that another candidate happened to recently have acquired expertise in. It is never personal and it never reflects your preparedness. I have interviewed a lot of qualified candidates when we only could pick one, and I have been interviewed by a lot of places that didn’t offer me the position. At first, I got really depressed; after a while, you simply shake it off and wait for a better option. When I look back, I am actually happy I didn’t get that job in rural Alabama for example. And yes, of course Cornell has excellent programs in many areas, because otherwise it certainly is not the location which is what I was trying to joke about: why are so many good universities located in isolated small towns or even rural areas.

            Quantity over quality in the context I was using it was a more general statement although your example on tenure is also a good one; but I referred to how the Administration operates in terms of enrollment, number of majors, number of minors, maximize course offerings and teaching hours for the least pay, etc. We think in terms of teaching excellence, causing an impact, and effecting positive world changes.
            In that regard, Critical theory to me is essential to analyze information in an equitable manner, but I also like to think I embrace critical pedagogy in my classes. I was not criticizing the CT group because I teach CT in a way too; but it is extremely easy, as you have pointed out, to become an automatic dispenser of complex terminology to confuse everybody and sound heightened. Yes, Critical Theory is an excellent field to create the most sumptuous word salads ever! Academia is full of narcs in any discipline, though. It saddens me to read you feel like you can’t make it outside of academia. Are you trying to go back to the market? Is there any way you could revamp your CV with new skills? I hope this doesn’t read pretentious, I’m just trying to offer ways to find other possibilities. Believe it or not, I have reinvented myself so many times that sometimes I don’t even remember what I got my degree in.

          13. MommyPino says:

            Violetta, Congratulations also on your new position!! I’m sure you will do really well!!

          14. Violetta says:

            Sweet P:

            Problem is Evil-Bitch DOES have tenure–mostly because she graduated before the crash, and that was was mostly because She-Who-Must took herself off her committee 2 weeks before her candidacy exam: a huge insult, and a nightmare finding someone to fill out the committee last minute, but it meant she didn’t do the endless rewrites I had to do, and graduated into a better job market with her confidence intact. She-Who-Must did not consider EBMFH worthy of torturing, so she lives happily ever after, with a husband she’s been subtly emasculating for years, and even had some kids. And yes, I did a search, and I should know better. I was hoping at least she had skipped having kids for the sake of Her Career, but she’s ticked all the boxes. She wins as usual, and her rudeness to fellow grad students and even instructors didn’t hurt her profressional future or her social life at all.

            I could wonder if it’s occurred to She-Who-Must without her I’d probably have a better career, but since I’m almost certain she’s a narc, she undoubtedly thinks I let her down. How dare I make her look bad, when at least half-a-dozen PhD candidates who used to have her on their committees and got her off (with the exception of the one SHE dumped) graduated sooner and got decent jobs? If I didn’t respond positively to her psychological boot camp, I must be weak. i>She, of course, cannot be wrong.

            Evil-Bitch, of course, is also a narcissist. No wonder they hated each other.

            The good news is my evenings are pretty much my own, so if I want to do independent research, I can. FU’s last course design and computer interface were so impossible there was no way I had the time to do research; I know people who just gave up sleep in an effort to meet deadlines while still giving thorough feedback and got sidelined anyhow. And if community theatres open again, I can do that too.

            But I’m going to use that line about day cares being more feminist that talking a good gender theory, while not having proper (or any) child care on campus for academics! How many times have I heard people in a multitude of professions complain about drop-off and pick-up times not fitting around when they actually have to be at work?

            Now that you mention it, EBMFH is in a small branch campus. She can be the big fish in the small pond, but things may not be all that secure for her. But I can’t wish her ill, because any curse could affect her kids, and they’re already stuck with her.

          15. Lily says:

            @Sweetest Perfection. Thank you for explaining. I thought that the Admin was looking at the number of papers, although I see you were referring to something else.

            As for Cornell, I suppose it’s just that I was citing many from that department & felt it would be great to work with them. But Cornell is not an exception- as with any job market candidate, one rejects offers & is rejected by many. I did have one interview with an R1 where the Chair called me to say that I was the popular candidate and they really would like to hire me, but they are obligated to extend the offer first to a guy who had more papers. He was hoping the candidate would reject the offer, but no such outcome.

            But if I was at Cornell (or at any other university), I wouldn’t have experienced what led me to this site! Painful experience, but worth the price. I still did not expect that the allied field I am in would have so many narcs- we are supposed to be more sensitive to issues & contemporary events involving many stakeholders. In fact, my knee-jerk reaction was “No way! He talked to me about his values and the values we share. He teaches on ABC. He researches on ABC. He can’t be this”. Sadly, I have been spotting more of them – but I am guessing that the field (which is very prominent now) attracts those who would like this prominence & to be considered as “thought leaders”.

            To answer your question, I will be back on the market next year hoping for a tenured or advanced AP position. I love what I do and I am quite interdisciplinary, so that helps me to have a rather broad range of skills. In fact, I suspect my CV is stronger than the average candidate’s – except in the key area of publications. Mainly as I publish only because I want to (& with who I like to cowrite with) and not due to instrumental reasons.

          16. Lily says:

            Violetta: I wonder whether I know She-Who-Must – or perhaps this condition is quite prevalent, as Sweet P mentioned. Interestingly, the She-Who-Must I know has in her thrall the individual who alerted me to this condition in someone else. I thought he would have seen through her, despite the multiple times she hurt him, but apparently not.

          17. Violetta says:


            It is indeed prevalent in academia, but the sad thing is that while She-Who-Must at least does brilliant research, the next generation is more like EBMFH, who pretty much writes the same jargon-laden paper over and over, and has been rewarded for it.

          18. Lily says:

            Violetta: I don’t know She-Who-Must then. The one I know is more like EBMFH who is reasonably prominent, but is limited in terms of intellectual imagination & creativity. To the extent possible, I avoid her, but we are on good terms – it’s the kind of person who can be one’s worst enemy. I was fortunate as this person’s former peer warned me in advance (she essentially stole her research paper) and I trusted the peer enough to think that there might be some truth. Turned out to be true…

          19. Lily says:

            Sweetest Perfection: I am so sorry to read about your recent experience. And it truly hurts when you put in so much of dedicated work and effort and it is so evident that the department preferred you. I wonder how they adapted to the new Chair – happened in one of my past departments & the new recruit was always treated as an outsider.
            Did the smooth talker scoop your work? I am selfishly glad that, via this thread, I have met you & Violetta (who are in allied fields). Yes, some of us can be easy targets for a certain type of individuals.

            Yes, it was unprofessional, but I did appreciate the SC Chair being so frank – it confirmed that they liked me, but my # of pubs disadvantaged me. Like you, most members of the search committees (+ the extra evaluators: secretaries, PhDs, postdocs) seemingly like me, but sometimes there’s an internal candidate, or politics, or the publications issue. I shoulder the blame too- I did reject a good offer as someone wanted me to join him at his university and painted a beautiful future. And, hey, the good news is that this brought me to this website, even if I lost that naive innocence.

          20. Lily says:

            Sweetest Perfection & Violetta: As you are familiar with the field of academia, maybe you can shed some light here.

            My recent “discovery” about Obama’s & Biden’s personality made me doubt my assumption that such individuals cannot tolerate each other at the workplace. For e.g., I am noticing how my mother respects & acknowledges others like her as does my brother (I suspect an Ultra as 1. he is proud & reflective of what he has been diagnosed as 2. what HG has written about his personal approaches, except about intimate relationships, could easily have been written by him). But I am also seeing that those in my field, who exhibit strong characteristics, are collaborating with each other. They seem to somehow understand & support each other (e.g. I first thought that the two individuals who strongly encouraged me to do something foolish in favour of someone were his lieutenants, but it’s just that I was blind to their true nature). Although most of the academic collaborations end after a project or a paper, they seem to be particularly strong supporters outside work. Have you seen the same phenomenon as well?

          21. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Yes, Lily. In my case, I understand now that it is because one of the two narcs has a higher school than the other so there’s a level of “acknowledgement” of one person to the other. My narc is a butt kisser of another colleague who is in a higher rank academically speaking and who I always found terribly arrogant. Now I am sure he is at least an Upper MRN, my narc is an UL. They collaborate but they don’t really “collaborate.” My narc agrees with the other narc and follows around. That’s it. Even though you perceive what seems like camaraderie and a balanced collaboration, one of them is definitely leading. Like a pack of wolves.

          22. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oh, Lily, I forgot to say: as in all narc relationships, the superior narc also gets something out of the UL. My narc obviously benefits from the other guy’s authority and academic prestige; however, he is much younger than this other professor, has a great physique and is pretty popular amongst students and younger faculty for hosting parties and being … well what an ULA is, you just need to read HG’s hilarious descriptions. So I suspect the older narc gets a little of this popularity by association with him. It’s kind of a symbiotic relationship. While the narc and the empath are a parasitic one, the one between two narcs is more communal. The higher Professor in this case is the shark and my narc is the remora fish. I have attended “arguments” between the two on social media and I can tell you at the minimal disagreement from Big Narc’s mouth, mine retreats like a hurt puppy and kisses his ass. Agh so pathetic!!!

          23. Violetta says:

            Lily: what I have seen is closer to 5th grade cliques. They’ll be BFFs–until they’re not.

            Basically, they’ll annoy one designated victim for a while, switch to another depending on course schedules or who’s sharing an office, but if they start to run out of victims because enough designated victims went on sabbatical, maternity leave, or transferred to another branch, they will turn on each other.

            In one case, an out-n-proud lesbian was shaking her head over how cliquish two female TAs were. She said they acted like they were in 6th grade. When an out-n-proud lesbian thinks you’re being too buddy-buddy with your same-sex friend, you are probably being excessive.

            However, when they had a argument during a conference in Leeds, each one approached me separately about going sightseeing. Did I want to go to Edinburgh Castle? Nope, going to Haworth. Then the other shows up. Did I want to go to Durham Cathedral? Nope, still going to Haworth.

            They tended to make up eventually, and anyone who was willing to be friends with them was relegated to 2nd fiddle (or 3rd or 4th), but there was another set that hounded their former friend out of the history department. She was flunking anyway, and they didn’t approve of her boyfriend. She switched to secondary education, where she would undoubtedly torture her vulnerable adolescent students and turn them off the subject.

            I don’t think any of these people knew what they were. Academic narcs may have alliances, but they don’t really have friends. Maybe this is true of all narcs. Some alliances may last longer than others.

          24. Lily says:

            Thank you, Violetta & Sweetest Perfection. Even though I would have expected them to be hostile to their mirror image, the evidence is certainly indicating otherwise.

            Violetta: Two female tenured sound a lot like your BFFs example – recently, they were both ganging up against the quite sensitive wife of their academic father.

            Sweetest Perfection: Your observation of the Upper MRN and UL mirrors the dynamics I see. The Lower fawns over the two Uppers (one’s wife seems perpetually close to a nervous breakdown), but also seems to be envious. The Uppers throw him some crumbs & he benefits from their prominence in the field. At the same time, one of them spoke very disparagingly of the Lower to me, but then also tried to move heaven & earth to get him a tenure-track position at my old university.

            Apart from all of the above, a few other observations:
            – they change their research focus according to the fads of the field (& a simple discussion would demonstrate their shallowness).
            – they don’t help each other if this boosts the other’s position above them.

          25. Lily says:

            Thank you for sharing your insights, Sweetest Perfection.

            Sticking to the analogy of marine life, I don’t know what the Sharks get from the Remora- perhaps someone who does the hard work on a paper & adds their name for little effort? My Remora does have a great physique & looks, but is very unpopular with everyone, so your example doesn’t apply here. However, Remora yearns to be in the limelight, yet is insecure enough to retreat when it shines on him. So, perhaps grudgingly, he basks in the limelight of other Sharks, Whales, Sawfishes, Giant Octopuses etc (“My coauthor is Giant Octopus. He is not only at #3 ranked university in the world, but have you seen the number of citations he has? He is a legend!”. It was baffling why he once loved basking in the limelight of the tiny clownfish (me) though.

            Later, if the clownfish complimented Remora (“Your paper reads well”), Remora would take it as a challenge (“Are you being sarcastic? Are you insulting me?”). But if the Sharks said “Your paper is terrible”, Remora is all penitent (“You are so right. I see the limitations. I should have asked you early for a friendly review”).

          26. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Hahaha, Lily, we should co-author a paper: “Finding Nemo in the Accursed Waters of Academia.” I thought you were gonna say the old professor is an octopus because he can’t keep his hands in the right place -also a common trope in this world-.

          27. Lily says:

            Sweetest Perfection, that paper would ruffle many feathers! But you are spot on re: Giant Octopus.

          28. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I knew it! Those tentacles…

          29. Lily says:

            HG: If you ever feel motivated to write a book on your kind in academia, I think you might find some rich descriptions via an anonymous focus group/survey here!

          30. HG Tudor says:

            That impression has been formed, Lily.

          31. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Hahaha! I am willing to contribute but I want to appear in the acknowledgment section.

    2. Mercy says:

      BKK, the prediction in my office is this is his Hail Mary. He’ll play sick for a couple weeks then claim he was cured by a vaccine that hasn’t been approved yet. And of course he will get praise (from himself) about how wonderfully beautiful the vaccine is.

      1. burntkrispykeen says:

        😀 Your predictions certainly seem probable, Mercy. If they do come true, I’ll be curious to see Putin’s next move… if Sputnik V will suddenly be offered in some sort of presidential bundle? With each vaccine, maybe throw in one of those plastic mattress covers for bed-wetters? (Do you remember that Pee-Tape scandal of Trump allegedly being recorded watching prostitutes urinate on a Moscow bed? 🌊😯)
        Your comment made me laugh out loud, Mercy. Thank you for sharing.

        1. Mercy says:

          BKK, haha I do remember the scandal. You know I may feel bad for laughing if he does end up really sick, but this guy makes it so easy to find humor in everything he says.

          1. burntkrispykeen says:

            I know, Mercy! I can’t help but find myself amused at much of what he says. Those expressions with that hair… it’s too easy! He went to the hospital for treatment, so in true empathetic fashion, yes… we both wish him a speedy recovery. 😔😏🙏

        2. Renarde says:

          Oh hey BKK! Long time, no see!

          Trump involved with Watersports? Honestly, would not suprise.

          What a tool to allow himself to be recorded, though.

          1. burntkrispykeen says:

            Hello, Foxy Renarde. It is nice to see that you are doing well… spunky and clever as ever! 🦊
            I hear ya! Trump was only “allegedly” watching the watersports, but nothing there surprises us. 🎬
            The comments here on the debate have been very interesting. I’ve enjoyed reading yours, Renarde. Do Take Care!

      2. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Mercy, such a good vaccine. A great vaccine. The best vaccine!

        1. Mercy says:


          You know, he wouldn’t have Covid if he didn’t take the test.

          “If we stop testing, we’d have fewer cases”

  3. K says:

    Trump has Covid according to CNN.

    1. Violetta says:

      Reactions in Daily Mail range from suggestions to inject Mr. Clean intravenously and opening his mouth (or other apertures) nice and wide so the sun can shine in to mad-scientist laughter.

    2. Eternity says:

      Yes K, him and his wife both have it. Now she needs to quarantine with him. I hope they get better ,but I wouldnt be surprised if they announce their seperation after this..

  4. December Infinity says:

    Interesting article. I am not surprised by how it played out.

  5. CandaceMarie says:

    Excellent as usual HG! I will be sharing this.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you and please do so.

  6. Bubbles 🍾 says:

    Dear Mr Tudor,
    Your attention to detail in this article is superb, thank you for all your time, effort and hard work putting it all together for our continued education
    It was very interesting and eye opening to see these two narcissists collide, predictable …..yes
    An hour and a half was waaay too long, so was standing and I believe. no pens were injured in the making 😂
    73 interruptions 😱 glad ‘you’ had the patience to count

    Unfortunately, Chris Wallace lost control, as he didn’t realise what he was dealing with…..SuperNanny Jo Frost would’ve made a far better moderator and her voice more soothing 🤣
    Thank you for your brilliance once again
    Can hardly wait for the next debate 🤡🎪🤡
    Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome.

  7. MB says:

    HG seems to have hoovered some readers with this article. Yay!

    1. Another Cat says:

      Ok, hoovered or not, I call this phenomenon Attraction through High Quality Article!

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Ha ha, HG approves.

  8. Carol says:

    Type B narcissist? Is this new classification? Never heard about this before and Id love to know more. If I missed some arricles about it, could you recommend me some? Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello Carol, you can learn more here https://gum.co/fiNJS and https://gum.co/PXiEA and https://gum.co/rkjCn

  9. Fiddleress says:

    I caught the debate on Youtube tonight before reading your analysis. Thank you for this, it is brilliant. I was especially interested in what you said about Biden’s behaviour, as I had not seen/watched him much in the past.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are most welcome, Fiddleress.

  10. alexine99 says:

    This is an excellent analysis.
    Thank you

  11. mommypino says:

    HG, excellent analysis. Both were pathetic in my opinion but a lot of people have already made up their minds at this point. Both the Republicans and Democrats have empaths and normals that tried to run for President but sadly got destroyed in the primaries.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you MP.

    2. Sweetest Perfection says:

      I agree with you MP. So sad. And yes both of them were pathetic.

      1. mommypino says:

        Next elections I will put more effort in promoting empathic candidates SP.

        1. Another Cat says:

          A wise goal for all of us.

          1. Another Cat says:

            Mommypino wrote

            ” Her facial affect and expressions also gives me red flags.”

            From overseas, that’s basically the only thing I could know and yes, Kamala’s photos all look like “standing outside the picture” And rather stiff.

            I wish American voters had seen these HG observations months ago.

            From Europe, to me, it looks like Bernie Sanders would have been the one to lead for president in that case.

          2. mommypino says:

            Another Cat, there were other non narcissists who tried to run. Tulsi Gabbard from the Democrat Party and Ben Carson from the Republican party. I believe that they are both empaths. Both got treated badly and decimated. Tulsi got bullied by Hillary C. and Carson got cheated by Ted Cruz. I felt bad seeing Carson’s facial expression when he got cheated. Honestly it is really sad to see empaths get treated badly in politics because you can see how it really affects them in their face even when they try to hide it.

          3. MommyPino says:

            Another Cat, if you watched the VP debate last night you would have seen the affect and expressions of Kamala that Inam referring to. My MR half sister used those juvenile expressions on me so I know that very well. Many MRs use that kind of expression even if you are still in the Golden Period and they are still super nice to you, sometimes you would notice them use those condescending and provocative expressions on someone else like a waiter or a bank teller who are disagreeing with what they want etc. It is a red flag.

            Anyway, I like what Megyn Kelly has to say about Power Women:

            “Power women don’t smirk. They don’t shake their heads mockingly. They don’t make faces. They take it like a woman. And then they kill them with facts.”

          4. Violetta says:

            Oh, that prissy “I am speaking. I’m speaking, Mr. Pence.”

            He deserved it, and I could wish she’d been there to run it on Trump’s bulldozing, but it didn’t make me like her any better.

          5. MommyPino says:

            Violetta, It’s not just the, “I’m still speaking” but also the facial expressions she had while she was looking at him the whole time. Her expressions are so condescending and immature like she’s still in Middle School. She had this condescending smirk and her eyebrow raised and yet some of Pence’s responses also obviously rattled her. I’m impressed that Pence didn’t let her condescending expressions get to him.

            So funny when Kamala tried the, “I’m still speaking” to Amy Coney Barrett too. Somebody commented that it’s because Kampala’s instinctive response is to play the victim. The senators showcased their narcissism during the confirmation hearing of Barrett too much but nothing ever landed on Barrett. Barrett looks like a Super Empath. So self secured without any smugness in her persona. So solid as a person.

          6. Violetta says:

            I have not seen Barrett on video yet, just in pics. Some readers have noted a physical resemblance to Amanda Knox (!), but I’m more concerned with People of Praise. Their rules seem more typical of Fundamentalists than Catholics, for someone who isn’t in a religious order. If you tried to get Lourdes from Inwood or Zita from Bensonhurst to follow those rules, they’d laugh in your face and say, “We ain’t nuns!”

          7. MommyPino says:

            Violetta, I had to look up People of Praise as I am not knowledgeable about it. Based on what I have read I did not see anything sinister or bad about them. Although I will say that a religious commune or any type of commune is not my cup of tea. From what I have read, the members are from different religions who like to be in a religious community together and they take an oath or something which they can easily get out of if they feel that they are being called to a different direction. But I haven’t seen or read anything bad that they have done as a group. I personally don’t see how that could affect her ability to be a knowledgeable and impartial judge when it comes to deciding whether something is constitutional or not.

            I also compared her pictures with Amanda Knox and you are right, I see their resemblance. In my opinion they are both pretty but I think they have different affects. For some reason Amanda Knox reminds me of a spoiled brat.

          8. Lily says:

            I quite like ACB, based on what I have been seeing of her in the hearings, although I think she is just the way a normal, healthy individual should be. I have a good friend just like her- sensible, stable, pragmatic, with healthy priorities, and a good head on the shoulders. Curious as to what HG thinks though.

          9. Violetta says:


            From the DM:

            Ex member of Amy Coney Barrett’s ultra-conservative Christian group spills its secrets: Perfume and thongs are banned and single women can only wear white cotton undies – and no ‘sinful’ large belt buckles that draw attention to the crotch

            Supreme Court nominee Amy Coney Barrett was raised as a member of People of Praise, a mainly Roman Catholic faith group
            She concealed her membership of what has been described as a ‘Big Brother’ group from senators when she was before the Justice Committee in 2017
            The 48-year-old’s hearing to see if she should sit on the nation’s highest court gets underway on Monday
            A former member told DailMail.com exclusively about the group and its rules
            He said large belt buckles are considered a sin because they draw attention to the crotch region
            Perfume and cologne are banned for similar reasons. ‘That would indicate you are trying to tempt someone with pheromones,’ the ex-member explained
            Single women can only wear plain white cotton underwear – no thongs
            People of Praise is strongly anti-abortion and also rejects homosexuality
            Even dating is a no-no until a member has ‘prayed through their state in life’ and decided they are ready to ‘marry for the Lord’

            Seriously? Even parochial high schools decades ago had proms, as long as your gown wasn’t too revealing and you left “room for the Holy Spirit” when you danced.

          10. MommyPino says:

            Violetta, I still don’t see any conflicts. The same argument could be said to any candidate from any religion that might have some practices that other people would find odd, different or weird. When I went to a Catholic school for girls there were many Sikhs who send their daughters to study there because the exclusivity from boys mean that they are less likely to fall in love because they will have to be arranged for marriage after graduation. I had a partner for a research paper who is a Sikh and she was so amazingly confident, smart, assertive and independent. I asked her how she feels that she will be arranged to marry someone that she doesn’t know or love. She said she has no problems with it and she really meant it 💯. If someone smart and highly qualified like her becomes a candidate for something like being a SC Justice, I don’t see how her religious or personal beliefs should disqualify her when she is completely capable of doing the job.

          11. Violetta says:


            You do have a point. The parochial high school in my home town had 4 orthodox Jewish students in addition to the AME and African Baptist students, and a friend told me he’s near one where a lot of Somali immigrants, mostly Muslim, send their kids. The public schools are so notorious even 1st generation folks have heard about them. They know they don’t want their kids there.

            I’ve just never encountered Catholics like that. Italian, Irish, Spanish, and Creole Catholics each have a different flavor, but I’m not familiar with Barrett’s. Likewise, I know martini Episcopalians are nothing like the lips-that-touch-liquor Holy Rollers or the tougher-thwn-thou Scottish Presbyterians.

            Barrett is the uncanny valley for me: not enough like either a Protestant or a Catholic as I know either for me to be comfortable.

          12. MommyPino says:

            Thank you Violetta,

            I understand what you are saying and totally understand how you or anyone would feel that way. Would I feel uneasy that an atheist SC Justice would be partial and rule unfairly against religious people or institutions? Absolutely. I would honestly be uncomfortable too just like many pro choice people would have a hard time trusting someone from her background to be impartial. I think this is where it would be interesting to know what HG thinks of her because I believe that an Empathic judge might have a lesser tendency to assert control in the laws of the land by being an activist and ruling based on what s/he thinks “should” be instead of what the Constitution meant it to be. I think it would be very influential on how a Justice would carry out the job. They are not there to decide for us what is right or wrong but they are there to decide for us if something (a law) is Constitutional or not. And if it is not then the legislative branch can fix it.

        2. Violetta says:

          London Daily article:

          “After Tuesday nights debate John Cleese (Monty Python) published this
          A Message from John Cleese: To The citizens of the United States of America:
          In light of your failure to nominate competent candidates for President of the USA and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective immediately.”

          1. mommypino says:

            Hahaha Violetta, it is such a bad situation. I am still voting for you know who just because of the policies I agree with. But they both suck in a different way.

          2. Violetta says:


            I’m still voting for the other old geezer, but I can’t say I’m terribly thrilled about it. I was actually relieved when HG said they were both narcs, just different flavors.

          3. alexissmith2016 says:

            JC another N no doubt. Seems to be a common theme here, another red flag, people with the initials JC

          4. MommyPino says:

            I don’t know Violetta, with the Hunter Biden laptop revelations, it seems like Biden is the more dangerous one. It looks like there are more horrible stuff that will be revealed from it. Too bad so many people already voted. He may have to resign if elected and Kamala can be our first female tyrant I mean President.

          5. Violetta says:

            It’s like trying to decide between the Pazzi family and the Borgia family during renaissance Italy.

          6. Violetta says:

            I think Kamala’s a mid-ranger. Jr high-level of prissiness seems to be a specialty of mid-rangers.
            Has HG scoped Barrett yet?

          7. lisk says:

            We’ll definitely get our independence revoked under a President Harris.

          8. mommypino says:

            I agree with your assessment on Kamala Violetta. I would be interested to know what HG thinks Amy Barrett is. I tend to agree with lickemtomorrow regarding ACB. I am thoroughly impressed by her.

        3. lickemtomorrow says:

          ACB could not be wrong footed, it seems, no matter how hard some people tried. She handled herself with dignity and grace and was asked some incredibly difficult questions, at one point holding up the notepad in front of her when asked to show she had no notes. I’ll give her superwoman as well as superempath with such a demanding role and a large family. Harris was plain disrespectful in her manner of questioning and I like her less every time I see her.

          I have a friend in Chicago holding out for a Trump win in a landslide. Safety is her main issue. Watching and reading the news reports I can see why. Hope everyone stays safe x

  12. windstorm says:

    Well, HG, once again you have hit the nail on the head. I’ll admit, it had never occurred to me that Biden could be a narcissist until I saw him in the debate. Even then I was just left with a deep unease from his behavior. I found myself wishing he had responded to Trumps tirade like past virtuosos in presidential debates (who, by the way, were all greater narcs). But I bow to your analysis. It explains his unexpected behaviors that troubled me.
    Still, cognitive empathy is better than no empathy at all and greater intelligence is always preferable un a leader.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Windstorm.

    2. WhoCares says:

      Hi Windstorm, good to see you posting!

      1. windstorm says:

        Hey, WhoCares! Good to hear from you! Hope you and yours are all doing well!

        1. WhoCares says:

          Thanks, my son and I are doing well.
          I had wondered how you were since the last post I spied was quite a while ago in the KHG forum.
          Good to see you check in and I hope your project is going well. Stay safe!

          1. windstorm says:

            Thanks, WhoCares! You remembered my ongoing project! When I started it I planned on being done by the end of 2019. Now I doubt I’ll b finished by the end of this year. But I am getting a lot closer and making good headway!

            My daughter’s had her 6th and final (she says) baby n August. All my family us doing well. I have pretty much become a hermit up here because of Covid. That’s a good thing, though. All my life I’ve longed to become a hermit. Maybe I’m finally fulfilling my destiny. 😄

          2. WhoCares says:


            A grandma again – congrats!

            “All my life I’ve longed to become a hermit. Maybe I’m finally fulfilling my destiny. 😄”

            Haha – I envy your hermit lifestyle!
            Envisioning you in your cabin is always one of my happy thoughts.

            My current needs require that I be near a city center but I know, in my heart, I would have no qualms with embracing a hermit lifestyle.

          3. Mercy says:

            Windstorm, Congratulations on the new grandbaby. It makes my day when I see you pop in! I’m glad you are well. The hermit life sounds amazing.

          4. windstorm says:

            Glad to hear from you, Mercy! Hope all is well with you, too. ❤️

    3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dearest Windstorm,
      It’s so great to hear from you, that you’re taking care of yourself and all is well
      Congratulations on another mini Windstorm
      You’re always in our thoughts lovely lady and you warm the cockles of our hearts when you bob in
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. windstorm says:

        Thank you, Bubbles! It’s always wonderful to hear and feel your cheerful, positive comments! ❤️

        1. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Hugs to you beautiful lady 🤗
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

  13. Whitney says:

    HG the God, what about the moderator? What school and cadre? I thought he was a weasel

    1. mommypino says:

      Whitney, I agree, I have always thought that he seems like oa weasel even years before this debate.

      1. Another Cat says:

        I wonder whether his father, the very successful Mike Wallace of 60 Minutes, was a narc.

        1. mommypino says:

          I wonder that too. Just like I have been wondering if Jerry Falwell Jr.’s dad was a Holy Narcissist.

      2. Whitney says:

        Haha Mommypino you were so right. I think he’s MMR Type A.

        1. mommypino says:

          I agree Whitney! You’re right, Type A is definitely apt for him.

          1. Whitney says:

            MMR types A and B are my least favourite Narcs! They must be the most common. Or maybe they are just drawn to my friend. I deal with so many of them

          2. mommypino says:

            Whitney, I agree! I think it depends on where you live. I think in more impoverished areas, there are more Lower and Middle Lessers and some Lower MRs. In California, because the culture expects people to be nice and charitable, I noticed that there are a big majority of Mid Rangers. Where I live because it’s rural, more Lower Mid Rangers and some Middle Mid Rangers. The Middle Mid Ranger Bs are the ones who usually run for positions of power in our little county. We just had a School Board member who had to apologize because she trespassed into the front yard of a former teacher and clipped her campaign flyer into the former teacher’s campaign yard sign promoting her opponent. The former teacher complained about vandalism and trespassing. A lot of people say the former teacher is over reacting and some people say no because if you understand the dynamic between them it was actually a form of bullying. Prior to that I was actually involved in a thread that criticized that criticized that School Board member because I know that she is a narcissist just by the stories shared by some people and I also asked my husband about her because he used to be a School Board member too although he didn’t run for reelection once the youngest of his daughters graduated high school (before we had kids). Then one parent defended her and said that this woman helped her when her son was diagnosed for leukemia and he was her student. This School Board member (former teacher also) went to this mom’s house every week for several months to teach him and help him not get so behind. I thought she was just an overwhelming angel but the mom of course only knows that this woman helped her so much. And that’s what my husband said about her that she is horrible but she helps a lot of people too. So the mom’s emotional plea to stop criticizing this woman got all of us to stop talking but this new controversy about her trespassing at someone’s yard to clip her flyer on an opponent’s sign will probably cause her to lose.

          3. Whitney says:

            Mommypino that’s funny how she trespassed in the yard to stick the opponents sign on top 😂 I admit Narcs give me a lot of entertainment (that’s Emotional Thinking I know). The school board sounds gossipy!

          4. Whitney says:

            Mommypino! I wanted to tell you and Violetta and HG,
            I went to my sport again and saw the one who choked me (UMR Elite) after 6 months. He looks completely different!!! Now that I’m not infatuated or in love. He’s sooo much smaller than I imagined! I thought-that can’t be him! I thought he was big and tall and strong. He’s scrawny and small!
            I saw his behaviour in a totally different light. He’s insane and fake.

            I know we’re supposed to do No Contact but seeing him in person destroyed my delusion (I know that justification is Emotional Thinking)

          5. mommypino says:

            Very good for you Whitney!! I’m so happy you are at that place now. I know what you are saying because I have experienced that before where after the emotional thinking is gone we see the narcissist for what they really are! The emotional thinking really can make an average joe look like an Adonis. So funny but we are all like that! Now you have more reason and ease to completely throw him in the garbage pile of your life and not look back. But I wouldn’t go back to the places where he frequents because in my personal experience the emotional thinking comes back with the more additional exposures to them. Let’s listen to HG because he knows what’s best which is complete No Contact.

          6. Violetta says:

            I’m glad he doesn’t do it for you anymore, but get back on the wagon, Whitney: find a different gym ASAP!

          7. Whitney says:

            Thank you Mommypino and Violetta 😀 I agree

            Hahaha an average Joe looks like an Adonis! Perfectly stated Mommypino

            I’ll believe his self delusion again if I hang around him too long.

            I see him differently but I admit, I still want to be near him. It’s my narc addiction.

  14. yourdailyescape6108 says:

    I can’t wait for miss piggy to voted out of office 😀

  15. Jennifer says:

    Very well written.
    The debate looked like school kids arguing on the playground. I didn’t see it as a win for either in my opinion.
    I enjoyed reading this post.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Jennifer.

    2. MB says:

      Same Jennifer. I kept waiting for one to say “NA NA BOO BOO STICK YOUR HEAD IN DOO DOO!”

  16. burntkrispykeen says:

    Excellent Observations!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Indeed and thank you.

    2. WhoCares says:


      How are you?!

      1. burntkrispykeen says:

        Hello WhoCares! I am well – thank you. I decided to take a brief break from work with a trip to the mountains. Having some extra time, I couldn’t resist commenting today. (This article is certainly an enlightening account of that diabolical debate.) I watched in shame… yet I was also shamefully entertained! It was hard not to think of narcissism watching all of their antics. (Actually, it’s hard not to think of narcissism every day of my life.)
        It is so nice to “hear” from you, WhoCares! How are you doing… and your son? How about that new job that you were about to embark upon… the one that would allow you an opportunity to display your talented writing skills? Did everything work out there, or did you decide to move in another direction?

        1. WhoCares says:


          How lovely – a trip to the mountains sounds like an excellent choice! And good to take a break from work.

          Ah, the writing job – it did not pan out in the end – which is fine, as I think it would have required me to be subtly bound to a narcissist in business partnership…so a loss in one way but a win in another way. Pursuing that job was also an attempt to stay in the community where I was at that time.

          “Did everything work out there, or did you decide to move in another direction?”

          I have indeed moved (to a somewhat bigger community) since then and my son and I have been enjoying our new digs for over a year now. I am keeping an eye on Covid-19 with the hopes it doesn’t too significantly derail some plans I have on the horizon. My son and I were just starting to get established and make connections in our new life when the pandemic hit, so that’s really changed the landscape in a way that is unavoidable.

          So happy to see you posting! (Could have used your assistance in some bourbon choosing a while back… good thing I discovered it is yummy in coffee.)

        2. burntkrispykeen says:

          Ahh, a little Irish coffee is good for the soul – ya know. Actually, I am not a coffee drinker, but a little Irish coffee without the coffee hits the same spot… just harder! (I am still holding out on the hopes of a group trip through The Kentucky Bourbon Trail, though. We shall sample it all there!)

          It is so good to hear that you and your son are doing well. I am happy for you both that you are enjoying your new location. While I enjoy the rural life, there are definitely more opportunities in a larger city, especially in regards to career… and meeting someone. I have no doubt that your future there remains bright.

          This pandemic has been wicked! Heart-wrenching, actually. Even watching that debate, I had sympathy for Trump, as it seems unfair to blame one person for something as disastrous as this virus. Not that plenty of officials couldn’t have made better decisions… but to think one person can keep EVERYONE safe PLUS grow the economy at the same time… even a narcissist can’t do that!

          Anyway, it has been great to hear from you… like reconnecting with an old friend.

          1. WhoCares says:


            “The Kentucky Bourbon Trail” – yes! Thoughts of those plans are what lead me to try some bourbon (two summers ago) while visiting with a cousin in Toronto. She and I had a lot to catch up on and I thought it would be nice to accompany late night chats (I took the advice of the liquor store employee – who *seemed* to know what he was talking about)…but anyway my cousin is not a fan of bourbon! Or maybe it was not a good brand – either way, your expertise 😉would have been welcome!

            “Even watching that debate, I had sympathy for Trump..”

            Sympathy for Trump? Oh my, now maybe I really do need to watch the debate.

            But, yes, the pandemic has added a new normal to our lives. I feel for the young people who are susceptible to fear-mongering and who wonder when life will go back to “normal”. There’s not really a very satisfying answer to give them.

            It is really nice to catch up with you BKK 💙.

          2. burntkrispykeen says:

            😄 Your cousin’s reaction is not uncommon. 🥃 It is an acquired taste, but once aquired…

            My political sympathy was short-lived Tuesday night. Trump did plenty to disappoint me… as all narcissists do. I found both candidates to be ridiculous in some of their accusations, but that was part of what kept me entertained! If you can stomach it, do watch.

            It has been nice catching up with you as well, WhoCares. You are such a sweetheart. 🤗

  17. Why me? says:


    Do you still think that Trump will win again?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      At this moment, no.

      1. Why me? says:

        Yeah. I don’t think he will win, either – at least at this moment. Do you think that he will seek revenge if he loses? In what way?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          He will seek to assert control, rather than revenge (although it may be perceived as revenge) should he lose. The most obvious way would be to call into doubt the actual outcome and launch legal challenges to it.

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Is it possible Biden could do the same? Just playing Devil’s Advocate, but all bets seem to be on Trump calling the results into question with an assumed loss on his part. Recalling the events of 2016, what if he wins?

          2. mommypino says:


            That’s what Hillary did with the Russian intervention hoax that they didn’t even have any evidence of. So Biden will probably do the same.

          3. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thanks for your response, MP. I had that impression.

          4. alexissmith2016 says:

            And if it doesn’t work, he’ll just bomb a few people

  18. Another Cat says:

    … and it is a shame I missed out on this meeting of two intelligent gentlemen.

  19. Bibi says:

    Excellent analysis, HG. Thank you for taking the time to examine this shit show. I actually did not watch it (I was at work) but I saw some clips re: the insults and talking over one another. It is fascinating when you can witness 2 narcs colliding in real life.

    It is a sad state of American politics.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You’re welcome and yes it was not an edifying experience.

  20. Christopher Jackson says:

    Well thanks hg as usual spot on…very interesting to know Biden was apart of the brethren…thanks for taking the time out to do this

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You’re welcome, I’m pleased you found it interesting.

  21. DrHouse says:

    Hg, thanks for your effort.
    Is it for you like watching sports, or is it exhausting to observe other narcs?
    Also could you battle Trump?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      It is an exercise.
      No, it is not exhausting.
      I would harness him.

      1. MB says:

        My vote is for HG to moderate the next one!

        1. HG Tudor says:

          They asked me but I explained I had my hands full moderating some troublemakers on my blog.

          1. MB says:

            I really would like to see you would handle them. “When HG Met The Narcissists”

          2. Violetta says:

            I bet we’d make better watching mud-wrestling than either of the two candidates.
            Of course, that’s setting the bar very low indeed.

          3. NarcAngel says:

            Hmm…I’ve seen no troublemakers. Must be one of those things we’re not all privy to that someone warned about.

          4. HG Tudor says:

            No, it doesn’t fall within that category.

          5. Pamela says:


      2. DrHouse says:

        Harness like in literally and sending him to a ward or milking his stupidity?
        Do you think Biden can still get him with Obama in the background?

        1. HG Tudor says:

          Think of a cannon.

          What do you mean by “get him”? Do you mean defeat him in the election?

          1. DrHouse says:

            Yes, will / can Biden win the elelection.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Yes he can.

  22. Duchessbea says:

    HG excellent article. Intriguing insight. Will be interesting watching the rest of the debates now you have written this great article. Thank you HG.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome, I am pleased you found it interesting.

  23. lisk says:

    What? No mention of Chris Wallace, the so-called debate moderator?

    I agree that both the incumbent and the candidate are narcissists–you have to be to run for presidential office. But without discussion of Wallace’s sycophancy, I can agree with only so much of your analysis.

    This was Trump versus Biden/Wallace/Commission on Public Debates (which has Bill Clinton and Barack Obama on its board). So, Trump’s opposing narcissist is multifactorial and multilevel. That is a lot to be up against, and I would argue that one needs to be the narcissist that Trump indeed is in order to go up against the weight of that opposition.

    As for Trump’s provocations, he needed to make them in order to get certain points out over the airwaves, where certain facts and opinions are barely emitted by the mainstream media (another major factor/layer). Are these Trumpian provocations an attempt at control? Absolutely.

    And why not? This is political power at stake.

  24. December Infinity says:

    I didn’t get to watch the debate as I had to work but I heard updates about it this morning. I figured it was going to be a train wreck given Trump’s past and present behaviours. I will read the article that HG has provided with his insight.

  25. lickemtomorrow says:

    Thoroughly enjoyed the breakdown, HG.

    I watched the debate live and I think ‘exasperating’ could be a word to use when watching two narcissist’s collide! It was also a little exhausting knowing every question was going to encourage the same dynamic. And now we know what that dynamic is.

    I’m sure people have lots of personal opinions about the two candidates, but what you have done is stop the mud slinging in its footsteps by providing another perspective on what is going on.

    I actually found it quite fascinating after watching it and forming my own opinions to read what your take on it was. And there’s no doubt it’s accurate.

  26. Beguiled says:

    I haven’t watched yet, now I am giddy to do so. I had not realized Biden was an UMR. I would think that anyone “debating” (being interrupted by) an ULR buffoon would “fracture thier facade”. Don’t all politicians have a facade?

    It’s sad because, if he didn’t stoop to the level of the lower narcissist and react in kind, he would have been viewed as even weaker than he already is. Makes for a veritable cock fight.

    As an American, its painful and embarrassing. We are choosing between bad and worse.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Most, but not all political leaders have a facade. Bolsonaro is one who immediately springs to mind who does not have a facade.

      1. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Nope he doesn’t. He’s repugnant from second one.

  27. Ashley says:


    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  28. MissTasia says:

    Brilliant analysis as always H.G. Thank you.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  29. Sweetest Perfection says:

    I’m not surprised. This explains why I felt revolted last night and left before finishing the debate. What a pair of shitheads. I agree Trump does not have an ideology. You need to have ideas to have one. Biden is equally repulsive. This election is a shit show and it has just started…

    1. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Tsk tsk …. I didn’t explicitly said it but I will for our favorite narcissist: brilliant analysis, as always. I am just so used to it I don’t think I need to mention every time.

    2. MB says:

      I’m ashamed that these two are the best candidates our great nation can put forth. The bar is way too low for such an important office.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        You are being badly let down.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          Exactly. MB, of course they are NOT the best. They are the ones they forced upon us to make us believe we can choose.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            So, why aren’t you running for office then SP?

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Because I wasn’t born in the USA?

          3. HG Tudor says:

            Fair enough. Doesn’t stop you aiming for other political office or creating a campaign for someone you would not regard as being forced upon you.

          4. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Been there, done that, HG. Unfortunately, he decided to step down the campaign. It hurt me to see people talking shit about the candidate I supported based on a mere bias of ageism when in reality Biden is not getting any younger. Politics is not my arena though, and I doubt I would ever get involved in it in a public way, although some friends tried to encourage me to get a position as official interpreter for the president. The things I could do changing Trump’s words without him knowing! Haha!

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Ha ha, that would be entertaining.
            I am not surprised that you had some dalliance with politics/campaigning and it is honest of you to demonstrate how the “talking shit” impacted on how you felt.

          6. Violetta says:

            HG: she’s not a narc. Very few non-narcs will bother running for office. The idealists get corrupted or chewed up.

          7. HG Tudor says:

            Precisely the point made in the article.

          8. Sweetest Perfection says:

            So true Violetta.

          9. MB says:

            That settles it, I’m writing in Sweetest Perfection in November! I’d write HG if he were eligible.

          10. NarcAngel says:

            The pool is limited. We’re almost always voting on the best facade.

          11. HG Tudor says:

            Indeed, NA.

          12. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Yes NA but it seems to me the facade is not even alluring enough to fake it this time.

          13. Witch says:

            I’m not running for office because I’d KMT on the news and I’m bad at maths

          14. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Oh Witch the maths are easy. For every $750 you pay you get back 72.9 million.

          15. Witch says:

            I’m so bad at math I don’t even understand your comment haha

          16. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Haha it was a reference to the latest news published by The New York Times regarding the amount of money paid by Trump in taxes during the first years he became president versus the amount he obtained in tax return claiming huge losses. It was sarcasm to let you know that, to be the president, you don’t need to know more math than the one that benefits you personally, or so it seems.

          17. MB says:

            I saw a hilarious quote: the surprising thing isn’t that Trump claimed $70,000 in deductible expenses for his hair care, the surprising thing is that $70,000 wasn’t enough!” 😆

          18. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Hahaha MB! With infinitely less than that my hair looks infinitely superior!

          19. Witch says:

            Sweetest but the difference between trump and I is if he fucks up the country he doesn’t care and will blame it on someone else, if I fuck up the country I will give myself 20 lashes
            So I feel like I should be good at math and be educated in economics

          20. Sweetest Perfection says:

            That’s the difference between a narc and an Empath, basically.

        2. Violetta says:

          Hey, there are reports Meghan Markle wants to run for president! Won’t that make things more Diverse? Instead of pale, stale, male Narcissists, we can have a Woke, Coked Joke & her Broke Bloke.

          As they said in Cuba before Castro, “Every four years, a new thief.”

          1. mommypino says:

            MM is just a less educated version of Kampala.

          2. mommypino says:

            *Kamala. I think the autocorrect changed her name in my earlier post.

          3. Another Cat says:

            Kamala Harris? In an older comment on Narcsite I suggested that she was empathic….

          4. Truthseeker6157 says:

            If that woman runs for president I don’t think I’ll ever look at the news again for fear of seeing that fake gracious face looking out at me. Truly, I couldn’t watch her in debate even out of mild interest. She enrages me. I can’t think of anyone else who aggravates me to the same extent. There’s fake, then there’s Markle fake. She added a whole new level.

            As far as Trump Biden goes, solely on the basis of that debate, I think Trump came out on top. Biden came across as sly in that debate. People reject sly, even if they don’t know what it is they are rejecting or exactly why. He lacked presence, charisma, he faded away at the side of Trump’s brash. The approach of the Lesser in that scenario seemed to work better. I agree it was a shameful display and couldn’t be called a debate.

            Despite what I might think as regards policies and what Trump has messed up during his presidency, I couldn’t imagine Biden standing next to let’s say Putin on the world stage. He looks old, fragile, weak. Putin to me feels like pure evil. The man is terrifying. I’d rather Trump stand next to him than Biden. I think politics has moved beyond respective countries. I think it’s about how our representatives can hold up globally. In some ways, for me, the brash pigheaded volatility of the Lesser works better in that context than the facade of the Mid Ranger. Subtle doesn’t work. China is not subtle. China scares the crap out of me to be perfectly honest.

            Honestly, I don’t know which way I would vote. Both candidates are just awful.

          5. Violetta says:

            TS: Judging from DM comments, most people saw what they wanted to see. Trump fans thought he trounced that pathetic little Beta, and Biden fans thought he sure schooled that yob in how a grown-up behaves.

          6. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Ha ha Violetta but of course! I’m trying to work out if Trump’s Covid diagnosis plays for or against him. I think against him.
            From the friends I have in the US, I’d say most want Trump out. There is a difference in feel though. The people that want Trump in, are way more vocal, way more public about it. Forceful. Biden supporters don’t seem like they support, they just want Trump out. They are quieter, less apparent. Resigned. I think that will impact in the late stages. Those who aren’t decided will follow the bumper sticker.

            Originally I thought Biden would win comfortably. Now if I had to put money down, I’m afraid I’d place it on Trump. I see Trump in again.

          7. mommypino says:

            Hi Another Cat,

            Sorry I didn’t get notified of your comment so I just saw this while I was scrolling down the thread. I don’t know yet what HG thinks of Kamala but she gives me narcy vibes, MR. She has flip flopped so many times including on Biden. When she was running against Biden she said that Biden’s accuser of sexual assault should be believed and she was vicious to Biden. Now she doesn’t mind being a running mate. She has also been caught lying many times. The former San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown also said that Kamala had sexual affair with him in order for him to give her two political appointments basically sleeping her way up to get to the positions she wanted. There was also a sexual scandal involving her. Her facial affect and expressions also gives me red flags.

        3. Violetta says:

          Sweetest Perfection:

          “The things I could do changing Trump’s words without him knowing! ”

          You could run any of Trump’s speeches through a Mad Libs game, and they would make about the same amount of sense.

          Plu. Noun: wombats
          Verb: tit-wank

          “”Our country is in serious trouble. We don’t have wombats any more. We used to have wombats but [now] we don’t have them. When was the last time anybody saw us tit-wanking, let’s say, China, in a trade deal? They kill us. I tit-wank China all the time. All the time.”

          1. Sweetest Perfection says:

            I would ideally substitute “grab them by the pussy” with “treat them like the goddesses they are.” The world of interpretation is so full of possibilities, Violetta…

          2. Renarde says:


            I often use the verb ‘tit-wank’. Especially when driving!

  30. Alexissmith2016 says:

    I’m desperately trying to hold off from reading this until I’m on the train tomorrow. I want to savour this moment. But it’s a tough one! Eeek I’m super excited. HG taught me to be interested in politics. It’s so clever the way you do this. You’re so clever!

  31. Eternity says:

    Watching these,two go at it was like watching them in boxing ring but wearing suits. The Lesser vs The .Midranger. I saw the Narcissim in both of them with all the examples you gave in this article. HG you nailed it like always!

    1. lisk says:

      “like watching them in boxing ring’

      Not sure where you watched it, but the preliminary commentary on FOX definitely set it up to be a major sports event. The vocabulary and vibe of the FOX commentators was vulgar and over the top in that Super Bowl or WWE sort of way.

      1. Violetta says:

        If they mute Trump’s mic and he responds by physically trying to cover Biden’s mouth or the moderator’s so he can continue bellowing, it could descend into an outright physical brawl. US politics hasn’t been this fun since a Southern congressman beat a Northern senator half to death in the Senate house shortly before the Civil War.

        1. Mercy says:

          Violetta, I literally had the image in my head today of physical brawl when I read that they will implement a mute button next time. Can you believe they have to treat our president and former vice president like 2 year olds? A very important presidential debate and these two men can’t behave for 90 minutes without the threat of a time out chair.

        2. lisk says:

          Trump would not do that.

      2. Cinderella says:

        No it wasn’t. At least no more or no less than any other news organization.

  32. Anna says:


  33. Carrier Empath 93 says:

    This is an excellent post HG. I knew going into the debate that Trump is an UL and Biden is a UMR based on your famous narcissists lists. So it was exciting to see them battle it out! Explaining the behaviors of the two candidates based on their schools makes much more sense than just saying “Overt Narcissist” Trump vs. “Covert Narcissist” Joe Biden as some other uninformed experts would say. Going to watch some past U.S. presidential debates to see and observe how greater narcissists (you’ve mentioned a few in the past) differ from their mid-range and lesser counterparts.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You’re most welcome. I do enjoy posts which embrace my teaching and the appetite to apply it elsewhere. It contrasts with the political shit storming on Facebook that pits American versus American as they completely miss the point of the analysis. What’s interesting is that compared to when I first wrote A Very POTUS Narcissist nobody is now saying ‘Trumps not a narcissist’ (at least yet!) there appears to be an acceptance he is and his supporters accept that as they see it provides certain advantages. Predictably there’s been a peppering of Biden is not a narcissist by emotional commenters.

      1. Violetta says:

        ?!! Why on earth? At this point, this issue is which candidate will do the least amount of damage. Biden would occasionally make things better, because he needs to maintain the idea that he’s a Nice Guy. Trump only needs to maintain the idea that he is Strong, jawohl, mein herr Offizier, so having his thugs plow through the country doing a Number 6 on everything in sight wouldn’t make him hesitate for a moment.

        I’m just amazed to find I could prefer a self-righteous mid-ranger to a straight-up lesser. In this case, polite hypocrisy is less destructive than sincere arrogance.

      2. SMH says:

        HG, A friend said Biden’s cognitive empathy is part of his Catholic martyr act whereas Obama’s was more of a cultivated tactic. Smile and pass the drones!! I think it’s coming to be accepted that they are all narcs.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          There is force in that observation.

  34. Anna says:

    What school of narcissists does Boris Johnson belong to? Could you please elavorate a bit? I’m curious now 🙂 Thank you

    1. HG Tudor says:

      See the links in the article.

  35. FoolMe1Time says:

    I was hoping you were going to get a chance to watch the shit show ( debate ) HG. I knew there was only one person that could make sense out of that whole mess. Thank you for taking the time to do so!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You’re welcome FM1T

  36. NarcAngel says:

    Great read HG. Public examples with your analysis always makes for interesting study.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you, NA.

  37. Violetta says:

    There have been calls for a mute button, so the moderator can stop someone who goes over the allotted time or cuts into someone else’s time. I supported those calls, until I realized that if silenced, Trump might well jump over the podium and PHYSICALLY try to silence Biden and/or the moderator. Biden’s supporters will say this is conclusive proof Trump is a nutjob; Trump’s supporters will crow that their manly male masculine candidate sure should that Beta Biden what an Alpha is. Both sides will claim victory.

    This could descend to mud-wrestling before we’re through.

    Perhaps the Lilliputian method of choosing government officials is not so arbitrary after all.

    1. Violetta says:

      *sure SHOWED

  38. fox says:

    Dead on, as always. Thank you for writing this.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you Fox.

  39. Miss_AGL says:

    Such an insightful and eye opening article, Sir!! Like always!! Thank you!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

  40. Mercy says:

    I was so hoping you would write something on this. Can’t wait to get home and read. You always put the shit show in perspective.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Indeed and all this expertise provided gratis.

      1. Mercy says:

        Watching this debate was so unsettling. I guess I like my political leaders that can control the facade.

        There’s been a lot of talk about “who won” the debate. In terms of fuel, I think Trump won hands down. I think the true winners are your readers though. This was a excellent live example for us to apply what we have learned from you. Thank you HG for this analysis and for settling my uneasiness. It was hard waiting all day to read, but Im glad I did. I knew I would need to give my full attention to this one.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          You are welcome.
          In terms of who won, they will both think that they did.
          In terms of control, Trump edged it.
          Politically, Trump missed an opportunity. His school of narcissism’s method of asserting control (which it did effectively), by frequent interruption which ran at nearly one every minute, meant he did not allow Biden time to make any political gaffes.

          1. Mercy says:

            Thank you HG, I was hoping you would weigh in on who won. Do you think Biden did the right thing by debating Trump? Many said he shouldn’t even bother because they predicted what Trump would do. I think if he would have refused the debate he would have been portrayed as being scared.

          2. HG Tudor says:

            He had no choice, he had to “debate”. If he had not done so he would have given control to Trump, Trump would have capitalised on this and if you are running for the highest office in the land, you have to do this type of thing. To not do so would be expressed as and seen as, weakness.

          3. mommypino says:

            HG, I was imagining if Reagan was the one debating Biden. Reagan would have definitely allowed Biden to make those gaffes or errors that he has been making a lot recently. It wouldn’t have been hard. But Trump had to assert control. Biden was the first one to interrupt Trump three times which showed his natural entitlement and Trump had to assert control and took the interruption to a new level. Then Biden called Trump names which was also not statesmanlike for Biden. They were both just absolutely horrible last night.

          4. burntkrispykeen says:

            I agree MommyPino! There were moments where they each had the other backed into the corner. Had they simply utilized the opportunity, a moment of silence would have been much more powerful than bulldozing forward with the same accusation. If there’s anything we’ve learned from a narcissist… it’s those moments of silence… of just standing back quietly that can have the greatest impact.

          5. mommypino says:

            So true BKK! And I’m so happy to read your comments again! You have been missed!!

          6. burntkrispykeen says:

            Hello MommyPino! I meant to get back to this spot to reply to your post. I hope you find my appreciation for your sweet sentiments. 🤗 I saw your post on the shady acts of Biden and his son; I will definitely check out that article.
            I am curious how you and your family are doing? If I am remembering correctly, your son is school age (or is at least by now) but I cannot remember if your daughter is at this point starting school? How have those two cuties done with virtual learning, or are they actually in-person learning now?

          7. mommypino says:

            Hi BKK, I’m sorry I didn’t get notified of your reply. I’m glad I decided to scroll down the thread!

            Thank you, the kids are doing fine. I have friends with kids that we regularly go to play dates with so they are still getting some social interactions. My son misses his school friends, teachers, the janitor, the librarian, the principal and the people at the people at the cafeteria. But we are homeschooling and they are both enjoying it. My daughter is only three but I am teaching her letters, shapes and numbers. She also surprises me sometimes when she absorbs what I have been teaching my son. She is still full

          8. mommypino says:

            Hello BKK, I accidentally clicked submit on my laptop and got distracted! I can’t remember which part I stopped! Haha! I will check later to see what got posted. I am so happy to see you back here. Take care! <3

          9. mommypino says:

            Hello BKK, I was going to say my daughter is still full of mischief but in a sweet way. I think both
            kids are full fledged empaths now unless they change although I doubt it. So far the girl seems to be a Geyser and the boy a Saviour. Last night before sleeping he asked me if he could pray and I said sure. He then closed his eyes and prayed for poor people and he was so sincere as his head was bobbing up and down while praying like he was praying really hard. That was because he saw an ad on TV showing impoverished elderly people in Israel and it seemed to have an impact on him. A few weeks ago he accidentally saw a documentary about railway children in India while his dad was helping him find a train movie. They didn’t realize it was a sad documentary about children living in railways. He was so bothered by it that he said he wants to help those kids when he grow up and buy them toys and give them a nice house to live. He’s a really sweet boy. My daughter is super sweet too and they are both so loyal to each other. It’s amazing how strong their bond is and it makes me so happy. I hope it stays that way always. We have been studying about the moon this week as last weekend was harvest moon. We have a simple telescope and we also have seen twice this week. Last weekend when it was really close to the moon and tonight while it’s really close to earth. Both kids are so curious and excited about the stuff we are learning together. It is really fun even though it is a lot of work.

            Thank you BKK and I’m so glad to see you here!!

          10. burntkrispykeen says:

            Hello MommyPino,
            It sounds as if you got it under control at home! I can imagine that you are doing an excellent job in teaching your children. Your comment about your son missing everyone at school made me smile. It reminded me of my youngest, now teenage son. He LOVED the cafeteria ladies. Actually, he still loves anyone who feeds him. He once told me, “After you Mom, Ms. Laura and Ms. Shirley are the best cooks in the whole world.” Well, at least my competition wasn’t Gordon Ramsey.
            Thank you for your kind words, MP. It is nice to know that you and your family are doing well.

          11. mommypino says:

            Haha your son is so sweet BKK! It’s so wonderful that he had a very warm feeling for the ladies at the cafeteria. Maybe their sweetness subconsciously connects your loving care for him in his mind so they trigger good feelings for him. Thank you for checking on me and I’m so happy to see you commenting again. I have been wondering about you and I’m glad to know you are doing well. 🙂 <3

          12. burntkrispykeen says:

            😃 MommyPino, you sound like me. That’s how I was after my comment to Leigh got lost in virtual space. (I think that I might have exceeded my character limit.) When my words disappeared, I couldn’t remember everything that I had typed. 😬 Anyway, I am not sure what you were going to say about your daughter, but it sounds as if she is going to be quite prepared to breeze through kindergarten when the time comes. However, you may decide to continue to homeschool once this pandemic lifts. But then, there would be all those people to miss!

          13. burntkrispykeen says:

            MommyPino, those babies are precious!

  41. Cup Cakes says:

    Great Observation.

  42. Truthseeker6157 says:

    Absolutely brilliant article HG. Thank you for writing and posting free of charge. Such an interesting breakdown.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you TS and you are welcome.

  43. Violetta says:

    I am referring DM readers and everyone I know to this article. I did watch, and while I didn’t believe even the late William F. Buckley could have managed Trump, who out-shouts where he has no point to argue, I didn’t realize Biden was a mid-ranger. I thought he was a normal who was rightly annoyed by Trump’s Scut Farkus routine.

    1. NarcAngel says:

      That is likely how many saw Biden. Not as a haughty narcissist, but rather someone normal and frustrated at having to interact with a feces throwing lemur.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        The operation of his facade, for the most part, but it was cracking.

        1. lisk says:

          It was always cracking. He was always a slime bag, as I knew of him in his pre-Obama days.

      2. Violetta says:

        “Feces-throwing lemur.” Thank you, NA, I needed that laugh.

      3. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Lemur! Hahaha!

  44. autiempath says:

    This is so clarifying!

    1. HG Tudor says:


  45. Renarde says:


    I have caught, tangentially, this debate although I havnt yet had the ‘pleasure’ of viewing it. I absolutely will but part of me feels I don’t actually need to. It is that obvious by your words what must have transpired.

    I caught Biden, maybe a couple of months ago in a speech. I was certainly struck by how he uses tone, inflection and a good, working understanding of cognitive empathy. Trump is, as you say, the classic ‘wrecking ball’

    It is most unpresidential for either candidate in a ‘two heads’ to talk over each other. Certainly resorting to personal insults is a new and very bloody low. Seems to me like neither would know a logical fallacy if it bit them on their arses. Rhetoric? Who writes these speeches? One would imagine they are an alumni of a Micky Mouse U. Sad fact is, they are from the Ivies.

    73 times you say? I’m suprised it wasn’t more. He must have had his pills that morning. Let’s face it though, neither are good.

    Politics is usually the case of ‘the least bad option’. That is horrific when peoples lives are at stake.

    Oh well. I have no particular axe to grind in this. I mean, us Brits on NS are seriously wondering if Starmer is also aware.

    Thank you for this article, Hg. But ‘Mystic Ren’ predicts happy fun times ahead with the Merry Fuckers on FB.

    Should be intresting! (I’m sure there is a Chinese curse there!).

  46. Kim e says:

    I knew this was going to be a shit show and could not bear to watch. I can’t listen to Trump in everyday stuff.
    But I knew HG would tell me in his own special way what occurred during the debate.
    You did not let me down HG
    Now to ignore the news more than I normally do

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Indeed and I provide you with the news and the accurate analysis, it’s a win.

    2. SMH says:

      Kim e, My eye fell on shit show and I knew exactly who it was :). I am still in NYC livin’ the life. I decided not to go back to the UK until the “government” (meaning the “Prime” Minister and his bevy of lesser ministers) lift the emergency coronavirus powers act and allow Parliament some say in governing again. It’s more fascistic there then it is here, and the idea of being locked down again with yellow vests chasing me out of parks gives me the heebie jeebies. Do let me know how you are! Smooches

    3. SMH says:

      Oh and Kim e, I think I wounded Odin again and got another corrective devaluation, but I am not sure… What I do know is that I should not have to be asking myself these questions, right? I won’t spill it all here at this moment because I don’t know if you’re around around, but if you are, I will! Would be good to have your take on it. Smooches!

      1. kim e says:

        SMH….Yes. I have missed you. Glad that my phrases catch your eye!!! I will address both your replies here so we dont end up with a lot of threads.

        How is NY? Chicago is opening up a little more but the northern suburbs that border Wisconsin are closing down again so it is just a matter of time.
        I am going back to the office starting 10/19 every other week on Mondays thru Thursdays. Still remote on Fridays. I will be going out of the new train station that I switched to as just the thought of the old one raises my anxiety. It will be nice to get back into some sort of routine. I find myself in the house A LOT and need to get out in the world. Cant meet the next narc sitting my my living room.

        Now on to more pressing matters and to get my HG impersonation out of the way…….WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU ARE IN DEVALUATION? When you know you go…………
        OK. So tell me the story. I thought you decided the doctor was the N and Odin wasnt. You felt no anxiety with Odin. Why do you think he is a N? Are you sure it is not your paranoia?

        I am going on 7 months NC. Yea Me! It was 1 years in August since I phsycally saw him standing in my back yard with a dog he had gotten 4 months before but I did not even hear about it at dinner the night before. Just proved more to me that as DLS I was not a part of his “life” at all. Cant lie. There are still days he is in my brain but I dont have the urge to contact, peek at SM or down the street at his house. I go about my business.

        To Seattle for thanksgiving. Boys surprised me in August and just dropped by.

        So spiill the beans.


        1. SMH says:

          Kim e,

          Hey there. Missed you too and very happy to be back in touch. I am REALLY glad and jealous that you are going back to work. I too would like to go to my office but I think it will be a full year before I see it again. Seattle for Thanksgiving with your sons also sounds great. Again, jealous. I am not sure when I will see mine again, partly because I don’t know where I will be or when I will be there or when he can come here.

          Odin hardly messages me now, though he hasn’t blocked me or anything. Could just be my paranoia – maybe a combo of the distance and the time difference. Or I might have slightly wounded him during our last conversation. He was being sentimental and I withdrew a bit. Hence maybe a corrective devaluation. I’ll message him this coming week and see if I can get a response.

          I am so glad you have kept to NC, girl. DLSs are for the fantasy life. To me it felt like being in a box with the lid slammed down. Or as I imagine it more often, like someone was holding my head under water. I think it’s good to have that revelation and realize how uncomfortable it is to be in that state all the time. But it also occurs to me that IPPS sort of experience it too because they don’t know about us, right? I mean IPPS thought she and MRN were just fine. Secrets all around. Don’t feel badly about it.

          There are other fish in the sea and it sounds like you are getting to the point where you would like to meet one of them. That’s very healthy. It’s super easy to meet a narc sitting in your living room! Just go online! Works for me! Ha.


          1. kim e says:

            You sound sad. Still trying to understand about O being a N. You said you expected the talk to slow down when you came back to the US but never anything about him being a N……ok once int he beginning but you dismissed it. If you dont want to talk about it now thats ok. When you are ready you know where to find me.
            Airlines messing up all my flight plans for November but as long as I get there and possibly back (HAHA) it will be fine. I understand that they need to cut back on flights and at the same time pick up and drop off as many people as theyh can. I will be heartbroken if my flights get cancelled all together but I wont be surprised. Also SWA is still no middle seats I believe thru November so that eliminates around 100 passengers.
            Was supposed to go to a french farmers market this morning. Up at 6 all dressed and we cancelled. Too cold. I did not want to get there and find out that only 4 vendors showed up as it is outside. Frost warning for tonight. 70’s next week. Yep….it is bi-polar October in Chicago
            Spoke to HG last week. Helped me with my ET spike. When I foirst started on this last NC journey I knew it would take me way longer that 6 months for it to be at its lowest level. I am getting there but these little spikes are killers. BUT they do serve a purpose in reminding me that I do not like the feelings I get with them and to not go back.
            DLS to me was what my last relationship was about for 8 years. I had a N detector done on him and he was not a N but narcisstic. He spoiled me rotten and I really didnt care if he was married. I did what I wanted when I wanted. He lived out of state but we vacationed all the time. I guess I was not really a DLS but a mistress to him as I knew friends and such. He was the one that crushed me 13 years before W showed up. I truly hope and wish that some day down the road I can find someone that I can feel comfotable with again and trust and not always be wondering….HMMMM what did he mean by that. I think if I met a N that was like W I could pick it out but there are so many different approaches they have. I do know (99.5 %) that I would never find a Lower appealing. To obnoxius.

            Enough rambling. I feel bad for you…………….

          2. SMH says:

            Hey Kim e,

            Sorry to give the impression that I am sad and make you feel bad for me. I am actually not sad at all. I don’t like the uncertainty but things are uncertain on my end too, since I do not know when I am going back. It’s not that I need to be in touch. I just want to know what is happening and I don’t think I should have to feel this way. On the other hand, I have not been very proactive so I have a hand in the dynamic too. It just requires communication, which I will get around to…Lots of things demanding my attention right now.

            I do not know whether he is an N or not. As you say, there are so many different kinds that it can be hard to tell. Some of the things he does/says are narcissistic, like your previous partner, and I still have a bit of trauma from MRN, which determines some of my own behaviors. Like you, I don’t want to be second guessing myself all the time but other people in general are a minefield!!

            You might not be sure of your flight until much closer to your departure date, but I do hope it works out for you.

            I had to get up early this morning too but not at 6:00 a.m.! Yes, I remember Chicago weather, and not at all fondly!

            Even a year is not long enough in NC world. I have settled on two years because that is when I felt all the weight lifted, except for that little spike in May after MRN hoovered me. Nothing like that has happened again and I do not find myself thinking about him very much either. So once again I am here to tell you that you will get there! I am glad you are still talking to HG. I was worried for a minute when we were all cut off that you might have fallen off the wagon!


  47. MB says:

    Thank you for writing this HG. I recorded the debate for watching tonight. I’m glad to have this BEFORE watching. You da bomb!

    1. HG Tudor says:

      You are welcome MB.

  48. FYC says:

    HG, Excellent assessment. It is unfortunate that more people are not exposed to the wise insight you deliver. I will share this post far and wide.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you FYC, I appreciate you doing so.

      1. FYC says:

        HG, You are most welcome, and I am happy to do so. People are very blinded by narratives. It is essential to look beyond the narratives and understand what drives them. I hope you continue your series on enlightening us as to how we are being conned. Your clarity and understanding is priceless.

  49. SMH says:

    Excellent, HG. I did not watch the debate but I have you to parse both sides for me. My friends think it is all about politics when that is not the case at all. I don’t even think Trump is a white supremacist because I don’t think he’s capable of having any ideology. I think he’s still trying to please his father, which of course is a form of control – over his own feelings of self-worth, emotions, etc. I never thought I’d choose an Upper Mid-Ranger, having been down that road before, but in some situations some types of narcs are the lesser evil.

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Hello SMH, valid points and you are correct with regard to the absence of ideology. Some narcissists have a lavish devotion to an ideology because their style of narcissism can effect control more effectively through the use of dogma and ideology. Other narcissists avoid an ideology so they remain fluid, mobile and able to morph in order to assert control through this style instead. Boris Johnson is another example of a political leader with no ideology although he is a different school of narcissist to Trump.

      1. WhoCares says:

        That’s very interesting HG, that a lack of ideology can actually be a benefit to some political narcissists.
        I didn’t care to watch the debate (because I thought it would be ridiculous) but now, with your excellent play by play, I just may reconsider.

        1. HG Tudor says:

          So you should , for the learning!

      2. SMH says:

        Yes! That makes perfect sense, HG. I can’t tell you how many times I have had to tell people that Trump is not plotting or scheming about anything other than how to keep the creature at bay.

        1. HG Tudor says:


          1. MB says:

            “I’ve delivered on more promises than I’ve given.” I missed that little gem. That goes in the brilliance or bullshit hall of fame.

        2. Mercy says:

          SMH, How are you? I think the last time we talked was in Conned. Thanks for bringing up Ideology. HGs explanation is like a light bulb klicking on. It reminded me of something Trump said when asked about QAnon. “I don’t know much about them but I understand they like me very much”.

          1. Mercy says:

            Haha omg clicking not klicking.

          2. SMH says:


            Ha. I totally laughed at the QAnon thing. Sometimes it’s impossible to tell whether Trump is deliberately bullshitting or just saying the first defensive thing that comes to his mind – Proud Boys? Never heard of them. Stand by! Maddening!! Apparently, gay men are reclaiming the Proud Boy hashtag on Twitter, or so says a young person I know (I don’t tweet). If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em, but only on your own terms. Right?

            Anyhoo, I am well. Still in NYC and enjoying every minute that I am not locked down in London, which was traumatizing I realized after the fact.

            How are you???

          3. HG Tudor says:

            It is not deliberate, he does not stand there and think I will just say something who cares whether it is right or wrong, he is utterly convinced that he is right all along, that he is the best, that everything he says and does is accurate and effective.Take for example his comment, “I have delivered on more promises than I have given.” That does not make sense, you can fail to deliver on every promise or delivery on every promise, but you cannot deliver on a promise you never gave, yet in his mind there is nothing wrong with what he is saying, he is asserting his self-perception of brilliance.

          4. SMH says:

            HG, Really hard for me to get my head around that explanation because it’s really hard to understand someone who completely lacks self-awareness/deliberation. Most of what he says does not make sense but normal logic seems to go out the window too.

          5. HG Tudor says:

            Your logic SMH, not his logic. Different perspectives.

        3. SMH says:

          Of course, HG. I misspoke. But in all fairness, I am here only to understand the logic of narcissists. When I cannot even understand an explanation that comes from you, I fear I am losing the battle/hitting a wall.

      3. lisk says:

        I’m quite okay with no ideology as long as it keeps other ideologies out.

        1. mommypino says:

          Same here Lisk!

  50. Anna says:

    Very interesting

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Thank you.

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