No Contact Mistakes : The Need to Sign Off


The most common conclusion to the romantic entanglement with our kind is for you to be discarded. Certainly this is what happens the first time around for most people. Later on, the likelihood of it ending because you escape increases as a consequence of either increased knowledge or awareness and/or being unwilling or unable to endure the consequences of your treatment for any longer.

Where you have been discarded, it is understandably common for victims to do a number of things, which includes :-

  1. Trying to resurrect the Formal Relationship with us;
  2. Wanting answers as to why you were discarded;
  3. Wanting answers to understand how you have been treated;
  4. Wanting to address outstanding issues such as financial and/or property issues;
  5. Wanting us to understand how much you love us/you are hurt/you are angry etc

Whilst you may want to tear a strip off us and give us a piece of your mind it is usually the case when you have been discarded that your response is not so much an aggressive one, but more one of bewilderment, pleading, trying to get together again and sort matters out, or eventual resignation and hurt with a recognition of the need to tie up those loose ends such as money owed, the return of possessions and so forth. The general stance by those discarded is not usually aggressive in nature.

When you have been disengaged from being our Intimate Partner Primary Source this has happened most of the time because you have been replaced by somebody else. We have somebody new, exciting and with that wonderful positive fuel which we want to last forever. This means that you will be effectively deleted from our minds. This is the ideal opportunity for you to establish your no contact. We have focused elsewhere and we do not want you interfering with our new embedded primary source. You are actually being given a head start at no contact but most people do not take this opportunity. This is because they cannot make sense of what has happened to them, nor what they need to do. They remain in the emotional sea and unable to make any progress.

The desire to sign off and gain some kind of closure by engaging in items 1-5 above (and more besides) means that you try to contact us, whether it is in person, by letter, telephone call or electronic message. At best you will be politely rebuffed and if you accept that rejection and stay out of our way, you are highly unlikely to hear anything more from us until the new primary source is devalued and we come after you by virtue of the hoover. However, if you continue to want to achieve the “sign off” by engaging in sustained contact you will receive malign hoovers to drive you away. You will be smeared even further and you will be triangulated with the new primary source.

However it will not end there.

If you eventually stay away and look at implementing no contact, your post discard behaviour has generated a significant risk to maintaining that no contact. You have already been painted black by virtue of being a treacherous and failed appliance. Your failure to accept you have been discarded (because you keep contacting us) not only infuriates us because we see it as our right to engage in the golden period with the new primary source free from interference from you, but you are failing to do what we want. Yes, we will issue malign hoovers for the purposes of drawing negative fuel from you when there is engagement. Your insolent behaviour for not  staying out of our way means that when Follow-Up Hoovers occur at a later stage (subject as ever to the Hoover Trigger and Hoover Execution Criteria) is likely to result in a malice obsession trigger so that there are repeated Hoover Triggers and that we will embark on a malign campaign against you.

Thus, when your replacement is being devalued, we will be seeking a replacement and one of two things will happen. We will either devalue the existing primary source, seduce a fresh prospective primary source AND malign hoover you by way of punishment or we will devalue the existing primary source, seduce you once again and do so purely for the purpose of drawing you back in. You will be drawn back in but treated as an Intimate Partner Secondary Source (although you retain the title of Former IPPS) and then we will torment you. You will be placed on the shelf for long periods by way of punishment. You will be subjected to devaluing behaviour, this being one of the exceptions to when IPSSs usually enjoy elongated golden periods.

It tends to be the case that the Lesser and Lower Mid Rangers will adopt for the malign hoover campaign only. The Upper Mid Ranger and Greaters will adopt one or the other given their greater degree of sophistication and calculation.

Thus the desire to seek some kind of sign off with us when we discard you has numerous effects but so far as no contact is concerned you have created the risk that we will come after you with a vengeance either in a malign fashion or to torment you further by bringing you back under our wing in a supposedly benign fashion.

Your repeated failure to do what we wanted post discard means you run the risk of creating a malice obsession with us and thus this will cause repeated Hoover Triggers so that in ordinary circumstances you may well have reduced the Hoover Triggers to a very low level, but now, you are causing them frequently with the consequences that follow as we keep hoovering looking to disrupt your attempt at no contact.

Thus, that is the risk where you have been discarded. What of when you have escaped?

In this situation you are far more likely to have resolved, worked things out, planned and perhaps you even know what we are. Combine this with how you have been treated by us means that the desire to “sign off”with us in some way is huge. In the case of your escape, this manifests usually in the following ways:-

  1. Seeking to expose us to third parties;
  2. Telling us how terrible we are;
  3. Looking to hurt us in some way;
  4. Unleashing your anger on us;
  5. Telling us we need to change and seek help.

In essence your sign off is not so much about seeking answers and/or sorting things out as it might be when you have been discarded but it is about getting one over on us.

You will undoubtedly feel better for telling us what  obnoxious, unfaithful, hurtful bastards we are. You will feel a sense of relief at telling us how you hate us or how you pity us. You will feel a sense of accomplishment by telling us what we are. However with all of that comes a considerable risk to the no contact you will want to put in place once you have escaped.

First of all, the usual “sign off” is done in a fuel filled manner. If you confront us you will be utterly unable to deliver your tirade or announcement without giving us fuel. Even if by telephone or in a letter it will be fuel filled. I have seen it often. This means that your last act as you escape is to remind us of what an excellent fuel provider you are. The consequence of this means that the Initial Grand Hoover which follows as we seek to bring you back under our control will be fiercer. If the IGH does not work and we are forced to find a new primary source, when there is a Hoover Trigger for a Follow-Up Hoover further in time, you will automatically lower  the bar on the Hoover Execution Criteria because you have given us an excellent fuel imprint at “sign off”. Thus you increase the risk of successful hoovers.

If you have wounded us through this sign off (which usually happens with exposure attempts rather than your final message to us) then this  creates a risk to your intended no contact. The IGH becomes furious as we are driven to assert control, gain fuel and heal the wound. You will also have created the risk of causing a malice obsession so that if the IGH fails, you have increased the risk of Hoover Triggers when we devalue your replacement. Thus when you are trying to maintain no contact we will keep hoovering you with intensity. Either from a frenzied IGH or later through repeatedly triggered Follow-Up Hoovers which will be malign in nature.

Accordingly, whilst the desire to “sign off” with us in some way will be either inevitable (post discard since you do not know what you are dealing with) or difficult to resist (post escape because you want your final say to us) the fact of signing off will increase the risk that your no contact implementation will fail.

Resist the temptation to sign off and thus maximise your chances of a successful no contact implementation.

72 thoughts on “No Contact Mistakes : The Need to Sign Off

  1. JB says:

    It was suggested to me (by a friend) that I should write a one-off letter to the narcissist, get everything out that I want to say, and then leave it at that. Said it would be therapeutic. I tried so many times to do this, but was never happy with the final result. In the end I never did send anything. I’m glad, as knowing what I know now, it wouldn’t have done me much good!

  2. ava101 says:

    do you enjoy visiting new places, going to a beach, sightseeing, a nature walk, coffee by the ocean, visiting a new town …. for the sake of it, with or without one of your energy sources? Or only for a purpose?

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Never for the sake of it, it always serves a purpose.

      1. ava101 says:

        So, you would see no need for it if you were sure to get the same fuel with less effort, is that right?
        But you enjoy making that effort to seduce someone new, even if that concern only a secondary appliance?
        Thank you!

      2. Sweetest Perfection says:

        Aw, I thought you were an aesthete!

        1. Another Cat says:

          I’m glad you respond clearly HG.

          We are Masters at giving ourselves suffering by hoping, keeping a torchlight, that there is some tiny bit of preference/taste in a narcissist, something as important as control.

  3. Whitney says:

    Yes HG, my God. I wrote an explanation to sign off. Because it hurts me to hurt someone.

  4. Empath007 says:

    I am someone who needs closure. I’ve heard the good advice “ I need to create my own closure”. How does one accomplish that though ? I’d love to hear people’s stories on how they gained closure. And what that process looked like for them if anyone is willing to share.

    1. rising phoenix says:

      Hi, Empath007
      I escaped my narcissist after having the good fortune to stumble upon this blog and discover what I had been dealing with. I broke up with my narc personally, mostly because it was the decent thing to do – and because I needed to clearly state that things were over between us. (In retrospect, this was a bad idea because of how the narc reacted, although it firmly shut a door for me, in my head)

      Anyway, my real closure came with the knowledge of WHY I had been treated that way. I have read voraciously through these blogs and gained understanding through consultations with HG, his videos and books. Once I understood that there had been no love, all my hurt was channelled into survival and wanting to stay clear of my narc rather than attempt to ‘sort things out’ or let him know how I felt.

      It helps to write a letter to the narc, and venting your heart out in it – and then tearing it up into itty bitty pieces or burning it. Of course, NEVER, EVER send it to the narc. Perhaps doing this a few times will help you feel better. I used to journal regularly for a few months after escape. It was like a ‘dear narc…’ diary. After a few months, I did not feel the need to write anything. Nor did I have anything left to say to the narc. And my mind found its peace again. Just like that.
      You will too. 🙂

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        I wish I had thought of the idea of journaling. Then I wouldn’t have been left with as much of an empty space in some ways. I started to write about my experience with the narc and may continue to do so, but as a means of overcoming some of the angst, the grief and pain, journaling seems an excellent way to go, just to get those thoughts out of your head and onto paper. And the beauty of that is when you are ready to let go it’s easy to cast it to the wind or set it alight to finalize the sign off with the narc.

        I especially like the final part of your comment RisingPhoenix :

        “After a few months, I did not feel the need to write anything. Nor did I have anything left to say to the narc. And my mind found its peace again. Just like that.”

        Just like that <3

        1. Rising Phoenix says:

          Thank you, @lickemtomorrow 🙂

          Writing always helps! Glad you’re putting down your experiences on paper.
          And you’re absolutely right about ‘when you are ready to let go, it’s easy…’. In the end, it’s really your own decision…

          May take a while, but the empty spaces do get filled by far better things, and I wish them all for you!

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Thank you, RisingPhoenix <3

            I think we each know the moment when the time comes and we have truly been set free. I'm teetering on the edge of that right now, and am much further along the road of letting go. Sometimes I want to embrace the fond memories, but each day of no contact causes me to realize that what I want to embrace is an illusion. And it was far from fulfilling in the end. So I'll continue to look forward to those better things you mention and hugs to you, too xox

          2. NarcAngel says:

            Rising Phoenix

            “May take a while, but the empty spaces do get filled by far better things, and I wish them all for you!”

            That is a great point you make. Thank you for that important reminder.

            People tend to focus only on perceived loss and imagine it it far more devastating than the reality. This is emotional thinking fighting to keep you engaged. Once you are free you will recognize that your time was monopolized and that you can now fill the empty spaces with people and with doing things that you were isolated from or prevented from doing. There is so much more choice, freedom, and happiness to be gained than there is actual loss.

    2. Another Cat says:

      Hi Empath007

      For me closure grew through the years of reading HG’s material. The Narc exes became more and more like small children in my memory. More and more unsexy. Like little machines. Maybe my ET mind simply got weighed down by all this entertaining info. I can’t really put my finger on a closure date.

      (I guess you are referring to the category: Romantic involvement where the narc cut you off without closure. When it comes to “mother” it was quite easy, since I was harrassed and stalked. Have no idea how she is doing this covid year, for example)

    3. Fiddleress2 says:

      Hello Empath007
      I understand about needing closure!
      As far as my last relationship with a narcissist is concerned, I got closure from putting him through the narc detector and hearing HG, in his response, break down all the reasons which meant that person was a narcissist. It was as if HG was taking my defence, siding with me, telling me I was right to take issue with this and that attitude from that person (the manipulations and attitudes I had described). I had escaped three months before, but I was in a sorry state, I can tell you.
      Also, HG further answered more questions that I had about that man’s behaviours. All this put together, over time, along with learning here about narcissism, means that after nine months of no contact and learning, I was absolutely unmoved when I caught sight of the guy in the street only yesterday!
      Do not hesitate to call on HG for support to gain closure. It was a different story altogether in 2008 when I separated from my daughter’s father after nine years. I didn’t know then he was a narcissist, and I had no support, no closure. It took me several years to get over it.

      1. NarcAngel says:


        ” I was absolutely unmoved when I caught sight of the guy in the street only yesterday!”

        Great to read and a much needed boost for those currently struggling to see that it is indeed possible. HG’s work works but you have to apply it and you have for a great result. Kudos.

        1. Fiddleress2 says:

          Thank you, NarcAngel.

          You may remember that I mentioned feeling the impulse (very briefly, and for the first time ever) to end my life back in January – less than a month before I found narcsite. That was a reflection of how I felt just days before my escape from the ‘guy’ I mentioned above. I don’t like to talk about it, but I thought it might add a layer to the boost you mentioned. Because this is how far I have come thanks to HG’s work, to applying it, yes, including in relation to other narcissists since arriving here.
          And now I’m kicking ass!

          1. lickemtomorrow says:

            Wonderful to hear, Fiddleress, and very hopeful indeed <3

            The trauma can be overcome and the heartache healed x

          2. HG Tudor says:

            Fiddleress has done very well getting to where she has and of course with the world’s best provider of information about narcissism at her side, the win was always there for the taking.

          3. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Fiddleress, what a great anniversary to celebrate this coming January. I’m sorry you went through that if only for a brief moment. I’ll remember in January, we need to toast to your victory! It makes me happy to read your success, as I know how that void feels. Not anymore.

          4. Fiddleress2 says:

            SP, thank you. What you wrote means a lot.
            I’m glad to read “not anymore” for you (too).
            I’ll bring the champagne for the toast 😉

          5. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Yay!!! À notre santé! Chin chin! 🥂

          6. Fiddleress2 says:

            SP: Et à notre liberté, liberté chérie!

          7. Sweetest Perfection says:

            Tout a fait!

          8. lickemtomorrow says:

            “the win was there for the taking”

            You are the world’s best provider of information, HG, and availing ourselves of that is what will get us there.

            And what a win it was for Fiddleress. A further endorsement of your Ultra status.

          9. HG Tudor says:

            Agreed and thank you.

          10. Another Cat says:

            When I read “And now I’m kicking ass!” I couldn’t help some happy tears from showing.
            So glad you are here, Fiddleress!

          11. Fiddleress2 says:

            AC, thank you!
            I am glad you are her too, and I hope you are doing well.

          12. Fiddleress2 says:

            *here*, not ‘her’

          13. Truthseeker6157 says:


            I’m so happy for you. Lovely to hear. Xx

          14. JB says:

            ‘And now I’m kicking ass!’ – this is so fantastic to read. You have clearly made great progress, and should be very proud of yourself for how far you have come x

          15. Fiddleress2 says:

            Thank you, JB, very kind of you!
            I am not sure how long you have been on the blog (since February myself), but I wish all the best, wherever you are on your journey 🙂

          16. JB says:

            Thank you, Fiddleress. I have been reading here for about a year now, but only started commenting back in September. I like it here, feels nice to be amongst others who understand.

      2. Asp Emp says:

        Well done, you – excellent to know 🙂

        1. Fiddleress2 says:

          Thank you, asp Emp.

          I don’t think I have told you before, so just to let you know: I always enjoy reading your post. I’m glad you are here 🙂

          1. Asp Emp says:

            Ah, bless. Thank you so much. I know I’m sugar one day and spice another day or both the rest of the time (sniggering). x

    4. wildviolet22 says:

      Empath007- are you familiar with Gestalt therapy? That’s where the term “closure” originally came from. In a visual sense, if you saw a circle that wasn’t finished, the mind would see it as a full circle. The mind seeks “wholeness”.

      They used certain techniques in Gestalt, like the empty chair, where you would “talk” to an abusive parent who wasn’t there, or maybe someone who died who you have unfinished business with. Integrating past painful experiences, so you can be more present and emotionally regulated in the here and now.

      Anyways, pop psychology hijacked the term, and it’s used differently than it was originally intended. But reading up on Gestalt was helpful for me. I didn’t learn about it until years after one particular break up, where I felt I didn’t get “closure”, but really the “closure” was it was a painful, messy break up, and I had to learn to live with how things happened. And at the time, when I turned to the person to try to get some kind of dialogue going, it just made things worse, and prolonged the pain.

      So in my current situation, I’m talking myself through it. Reminding myself that the pain will ebb & flow, good days and bad days. The most important thing is staying no contact at all costs, because I know what will happen if I break that. I guess you can say, following through on no contact and allowing the emotional process to unfold and be what it is, is the “closure”? Not sure if that helps you at all, but that’s how I’m looking at it, and how I’m getting through it.

      1. NarcAngel says:

        That poor chair would be a toothpick when most of us finished with it!

        1. lickemtomorrow says:

          Haha, it would indeed, NA. One I wouldn’t even bother chewing on when I was done.

    5. Lucija says:

      Dear Empath007,
      It’s a process, a grieving process and we all go through it differently, by spending different lenghts of time in each of the phases, to finally reach acceptance.
      I haven’t even realized when it happened to me. I just woke up one day ( after going through very intense denial and bargaining, almost nonexistent anger phase and very long and pretty scary depression stage) and everything was different. Suddenly I felt like I was free, I was whole,I was me again. At that moment I just felt I was more than what I was reduced to and so much more than he’ll ever be. Since that day, I look at him ( we co-parent so I see him regularly) and dont feel anything, not sorrow, not anger, not longing. I look at him and almost feel sorry for the empty shell of a (human) being he is. Almost!
      You’ll get there, eventually we all do. Its tough and excruciating sometimes, but it’ll pass. You will realize that you are so much above him in all the aspects of life, and that he will never be as intelligent, as resorsfull, as fulfilled and as beautiful as you are. And you’ll find out that you don’t need closure, or at least not the closure you feel you need now. You’ll grow from your experience and you’ll even learn to appreciate what you’ve survived. Just hang in there. You will be healthy again and you will love and respect yourself even more than before!

    6. Sweetest Perfection says:

      Empath007, if you need closure like the rest of non-Cluster B people do, you can pick a symbolic gesture that means it’s over to you. In my case, I decided to use a threatening professional coincidence with the narc as my moment of closure. A lot of people here may remember when this happened because I was in panic since it happened after a year of NC and I was sure there was a high probability of running into him at this conference we both were attending. And yes, I did run into him; twice. The first time he was climbing the stairs of a building and I crossed him while going downstairs. I ignored his existence. I am sure I wounded him. The second time I was with male company and he was walking to us on the same street… alone. Feeling that I was in superior circumstances, I greeted him briefly, he hugged me and said “good to see you,” I said “same here” and I kept walking. THE END. I immediately came to the blog to write about it, everyone was so supportive here that I felt extremely empowered! That was all I needed. I did not need seeing him for the last time, but realizing I was able to go do my job successfully, travel, have fun, make connections, and not be impacted by this “ghost” in my mind. It helped to receive the support of other empaths that understood how I felt, this blog has saved me. After two years and a half, I can serve as a witness that HG’s NC regime truly works. I used to miss that person, I had my up and down moments of ET spikes, and I had fear. It all passes. It will. NC works. Give it time, it’s all you need. I feel zero feelings for that person now -sometimes embarrassment but it’s impossible not to when you hear things he does from others-. I laugh it off, and I move on. I don’t get up in the morning thinking about him anymore. It will happen to you too.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        Thank you SP.

        1. Sweetest Perfection says:

          For what? Thanks to you in any case.

          1. HG Tudor says:

            You compliment about my no contact information.

          2. Sweetest Perfection says:


    7. Bubbles 🍾 says:

      Dearest Empath007,
      I ended my friendship with the weasel during a text message, (I caught him lying to me) I felt no need to confront him in person or phone him…. the damage was done, anything further serves no purpose!
      It wasn’t until I discovered Mr Tudor, where I found all the answers to the ‘understanding’ and ‘why’, of the weasel’s, my mum’s (and all the other narcs I know) strange behaviour
      Mr Tudor gave me all the closure I needed!
      Controlling my emotional thinking was essential. Once the clear logical process began for me, there was no going back, staying focused and on track is paramount
      I’ve made big changes in my life, one being, decluttering people who no longer bring me joy
      Looking after my health became imperative and is no 1 priority
      I hope I’ve been able to add to your resolve a little Empath007
      I know it’s hard, however, you have great support here for you 💕
      You have Mr Tudor !
      Luv Bubbles xx 😘

      1. Empath007 says:

        Hi Bubbles !

        I know what you mean. For me the understanding WHY it all happened the way it did was the biggest tipping point. Had I not discovered narcissism (true narcissism – not other fluff found on the Internet) it’s possible things would have became a lot worse for me. Or even worse… that id still be entangled.

        Yet. There has still been this nagging sensation (I’m 2 years no contact) that remains within me. I know the reason for it (we still work for the same company). For the longest time I was just waiting for him to show up. Constantly looking over my shoulder (not healthy – don’t recommend it). Now I’m not in that heightened state anymore – BUT I still have to deal with his stupid friends, leiutenants and so forth (thank god for HG because none of them have received any info from me – because now I know what they are).

        Anyways… this brings me to this post. The knowledge has been helpful but not quite the cure. I’m hoping I find a true feeling of indifference to let me show up to events in the future… and not give a rats ass If he’s there ! Haha.

        1. Truthseeker6157 says:

          Hey Empath 007,

          I think I know where you are up to, I’m roughly in the same spot.
          If indifference is the goal, I don’t regard that as achievable for me personally. That just isn’t in my wiring.
          I believe that No Contact is achievable but indifference, no.

          I don’t think that’s altogether necessary though. If you were to go to a gathering where the narc was present and you weren’t indifferent, accepted that is going to be the case, this doesn’t automatically mean that you would break no contact and get sucked back in.

          My view I think would be to accept that I’m not going to feel indifferent but that I understand enough to know that I’ll never get out of that relationship what I need so resign myself to the fact that it’s a pointless exercise.

          I’m just questioning whether you aren’t holding yourself back, or viewing yourself as being ‘not ready’ for certain situations because you are seeking a holy grail that might not be achievable. In actual fact you might well be ready, you just don’t get indifference into the bargain.

          I set myself to achievable and realistic targets. Maybe over time indifference would magically appear. Personally, I very much doubt that, it depends on the individual concerned. We are very similar as empaths, but we are not the same.

          1. Empath007 says:

            Perhaps in this case you’re right… I have achieved it with other Narcissist’s though. I had a narc teacher once, thankfully the physical stuff didn’t go past kissing and my parents ended up catching on and figuring it out which thrust me into no contact. For a year I felt confused and hurt… all the usual things after dealing with a narc and being a young impressionable girl.

            He’s showed up st my work a few times (15 years later) and I felt nothing … only indifference. He never crossed my mind after that initial year. He always shows up on my “people you may know” on FB… zero temptation. And the fact he could spy on me if he wants ? I don’t give a shit. His wife is mutual friends with some of my colleagues… I don’t care, in fact, I have reason to be believe she is a narc as well as she has helped him cover up his relationships with minors and keep their facade going.

            I suppose I’m waiting for that feeling with this narc… but perhaps you’re right, maybe that is unrealistic and I should readjust my goal so I’m not dissapointed.

          2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Truthseeker6157,
            I agree with your perspective and share your sentiments Truth
            Indifference is easy to say, not so easy to put into practice
            Thank you for expanding and highlighting it further
            I always look forward to your most welcome viewpoints
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          3. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hello Bubbles x

            Thank you for saying that, it’s a real compliment from a lady like you.

            I smiled this morning when I read your response to Empath 007 and saw we were both describing the same thing. ‘I choose to ignore’ yes, exactly, me too.
            As for work events, I remember reading another commentator before I found HG. She commented that many empaths will drive themselves to a work conference or party so that they can leave at will. I have always done that! Sometimes I’ll be the last girl standing but sometimes for some unknown reason I’ll just go. I always have the getaway car fuelled up and ready to go ha ha!

            I’m training for 5k now Bubbles! I ran 4k comfortably a few times this week. Hill climbs too. I have my goal in sight and I’m loving running outside in the cold. You were right, it’s good for me to be out in nature more often. Thank you for thinking about me and suggesting that. Xx

          4. Fiddleress2 says:

            Hi TS!
            I can understand when you say that you don’t think indifference is achievable in your case. And you may well be right, it might not be, in your case. But before meeting the last narcissist, I would have said precisely the same.
            On top of being an empath, and quite separate from this aspect of me, I am the sort of person whose emotions can shoot through the roof, as well as through the floor. And yet, I really am totally indifferent to that narcissist now, and gradually forgetting that sad/mad story and the details of what it did to me then.

            I have a little theory there, not sure if there is any general trend in it: my indifference to him is proportionate to how incredibly toxic that relationship was to me; I was also at a point when I had been in a close relationship with at least one narcissist at every moment of my life since I was born. The state I ended up in back in January was the result of that accumulation, I think. So my theory is that the worse you have been impacted (by your own standards, which vary from person to person), the more likely you are to achieve indifference once you come out of the hurt. Maybe as a coping mechanism too. I know that I cannot allow myself to feel anything towards that one at least. Am feeling less and less towards the other narcissists too, that I have known for longer, but are now out of my daily life.

          5. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Hey Empath 007,

            I remember you mentioning that teacher now. You were lucky your parents spotted that. In his case you achieved indifference. More time has also passed there. Your life has moved on. You aren’t the person you were when he was on the scene. Different situation.

            With this narc, he is in your work environment. This requires monitoring. Our ET rises and falls but you still need to go to work. Still need to avoid him and his coterie and still need to maintain your no contact. In this case, it has to be difficult to be indifferent. It makes sense that this narc is different to the first. It doesn’t mean that you haven’t reached your goal. They just moved the goal posts on this one.

            You are No Contact. You escaped. Your ET is being managed. You know what the narc is and won’t get sucked back in. You aren’t grieving the loss of the narc. You are moving forward. You have achieved all of this. This is success in itself. Maybe that’s enough for now. Xx

          6. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest Truthseeker6157,
            Oh my oh my, you’ve caused me to blush somewhat, thank you sweetness
            I can relate to so much of what you interpret, similar minds it seems

            These days Uber is your quickest exit
            I find they’re at my door waiting by the time I’ve finished texting haha

            I am so thrilled to hear of your training Truth, you sound exhilarated and appear excited in your tone, I can almost feel your ecstasy
            The only up hill challenge I get these days, is climbing into bed 🤣

            Nature is always calling, it’s a pity more people don’t listen
            You did Truth and you will be rewarded 10 fold
            Big hugs to you precious, you will only continue to get better, don’t stop what you’re doing
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          7. Empath007 says:

            Thank you for pointing out my victories Truth Seeker, I often spend too much time beating myself up for not being “perfect” and not achieving things in the time line that I want to achieve them. However, you are right. I have still come a long way. It’s not as though I’ve reached out and begged for him to come back in my life, and truth be told, all these lingering awkward feelings don’t really have much to do with me wanting him back in my life… more me not getting ON with my life (in respects to him and dating etc).

            I suppose I’m the desired victim… waiting and not seeing other people while we have been apart, haha… that wasn’t so much for him, but for myself, so I could take some time to catch my breath, focus on other aspects of my life other then a relationship and (hopefully) be knowledgeable enough I will see the red flags a lot sooner and not make excuses!

          8. Truthseeker6157 says:

            Empath 007,

            There we go, now you sound more like you again x

            I think we can all be pretty tough on ourselves at times. Keeping to yourself was very sensible. Time was needed to understand, to reconcile and get control of ET. It might be time to do a Bubbles. Try a work social event / a new social group/ a date if you want to go, but take the getaway car! Test a little, review how you feel, hold, try again, review. Little by little and sensibly, start getting back out there again. Have faith in what you have learned here. You are far wiser than you were in previous relationships.

          9. Truthseeker6157 says:


            Nothing wrong with a bit of colour in your cheeks. I hear Mr Bubbles has that quite a lot from being chased round by you!
            You’re right, I am feeling good these days 😊. I’m finding new things I enjoy and I’m just entertaining myself, setting targets and getting a buzz from reaching them.
            I agree, I’ve never been a city girl. I need space around me, I do feel much better when I’m out in the countryside. For some reason I just holed myself up inside for a while, retired to my corner a bit. I’m out of my corner now and on my way up!

            I’m always thankful for your suggestions Bubbles, they do help xx

          10. Truthseeker6157 says:


            You might have hit on something there. At that point in January you hit rock bottom. At that point it was either, give up or, fight your way back. You fought your way back and you deserve every good thing because of it. Your story is a remarkable one and if you carry the narcissistic trait of pride, I vote you let it shine!

            Who knows where we will all get to and when. Maybe we will feel indifference towards some narcs and not others. Maybe escape and moving forward is enough for some and not for others.

            I’ll be interested to take the weaponised Empath Detector and find out which group I belong to there. I have heard only two categories, Renarde has a schmexy one can’t recall exactly the name and Remembrancer is another. Have you taken it?

            Knowing nothing about the groups and associated characteristics, if I was a betting woman, I’d say Remembrancer for me, all the way ha ha. That resonates as being me through and through, just in general, not necessarily all things narc. I will only take that test once. I will not retake. So, I need to be pretty sure I’m hot to trot, limbered up, on my game etc etc. I see that consult as a test and I go full on meltdown if someone says the word test. It might take me some time to psych myself up. I’ll let you know what I turn out to be if I pass it. Ha ha.

            I’m glad you messaged, I felt a bit like a rain cloud once I’d posted my original comment. Didn’t want to take the shine off your accomplishment in any way, because it is an accomplishment Fiddleress, it really is. I shouldn’t worry, I know you know xx

          11. Fiddleress2 says:

            Oh no, TS, I never thought you were taking the shine off my ‘accomplishment’, as you kindly put it! Please do not worry. I’m sorry if I sounded defensive, it wasn’t meant.

            I think you are right in that for some, no contact and moving on is enough to feel much less, and nothing that will jeopardise their no contact regime or LT.
            In my case, I know that I need to put in place very strong protections.
            Talking of which, yes, I have taken the Weaponised Empath Detector, and I highly recommend it, it is very accurate, precise, and also tells you where your weaknesses are if any, and therefore vulnerability to the narcissist. I didn’t see it as a test at all. You cannot ‘fail’ this, it will only help you. I am a Palladin. Or was, about 6 months ago. I love the Middle Ages imagery in the WED too!

            In fact, I was thinking of taking it again, so I’ll ask you, please, HG: could the outcome be different now with what I have learnt here, and put in place?

        2. Bubbles 🍾 says:

          Dearest Empath007,
          I’m sorry you’re in an uncomfortable environment Empath, but at least you have awareness on your side which is a huge plus
          ‘Indifference’ is a most powerful word indeed in its full context for we empaths!
          I don’t think I could ever possess it’s full entirety
          ‘I choose to ignore’. would be more apt for me and I would try to keep my feelings at bay where applicable
          I often say to Mr Bubbles, ‘ I don’t care ‘ or ‘ I don’t give a rats ‘ about certain things, but deep down I really do, he knows I’m when I’m trying to act all bravado haha
          I can’t change who I am, but I can try to control myself in certain knowing situations and my environment
          I make sure I’m not placed in those predicaments in the first place, if I can possibly help it !
          There is always the unavoidable and unpredictable, so when it presents itself, I invariably stop look and listen, then proceed with caution now
          I have taught myself to slow down or exit swiftly
          When I used to go to my work functions, I would always make a social appearance, have one drink only or if it was dinner, eat and leave, I never gave anyone the chance to gossip about me
          I hope dear Empath, you will soon find what works best for you 💕
          Luv Bubbles xx 😘

          1. njfilly says:

            Hello Bubbles;

            You name is very appropriate as you always appear very bubbly!

            When my narcissist boyfriend tried wreaking havoc I would usually respond “whatever” and walk away. Then he would always bring it up later saying he hated when I said that because it appeared as if I didn’t really care. I would respond again “I don’t”. Of course now I know what narcissism is I’m not really sure if he hated it or not. I don’t know if I was fueling him or wounding him.

          2. njfilly says:

            Damn! I made a typo. I hate that.

            “Your” name…..

          3. Bubbles 🍾 says:

            Dearest njfilly,
            Thank you lovely one, you could hire me out for parties n functions 😂
            I’ve always had a bubbly personality, I’m a natural haha
            At my age, life’s to short to be anything but happy
            I would summise your narcy boyfriend received negative fuel from you, however, you cut him off from having an all out verbal fisticuff fight, that’s why he hated it … you just plain deflated his game play …. haha
            Combo of both I would hazard a guess !
            Narcs never listen to you anyway 🤣
            Luv Bubbles xx 😘

    8. Empath007 says:

      Wow. Thanks everyone. I Have read through all of your responses carefully. Congrats to all of you for achieving the closure you needed. That’s amazing. Things have been much slower for me but from reading through the comments there are things I can do to help myself for sure… so here’s my plan :

      1) proper no contact – I can’t quit my job, not during a pandemic so that I have to live with for now … but I can control the spying of his social media and other lovers. I need to stop trying to feed that addiction.

      2) I remember your story SP 🙂 I have a similar feeling that seeing him may reinforce my happiness with my decision. I’ve been working SO hard at avoiding every event he’d be at… but I think I’m gonna stop doing that. And live my life already. I won’t purposely try and see him but I’m tired of fearing it… that’s no way to live.

      3) I have written a letter… quite a lengthy one. It was some time ago but I still have it saved and I think I should post it here. Perhaps putting it out into the cyber world will give me some peace.

      4) I want to start dating again. And let go of the fear of dating. The fear of moving on with my life. Work on my issues with constantly going for the emotionally unavailable or a toxic situation. For example, right now I have feelings for a married man (not a narc) but toxic situation. I have not acted on these feelings. So nothing has happened. But I have been asking myself why do I do this ?? And I think the answer is rooted in my low self esteem and low self worth. I want to start healing that.

      Thanks so much everyone. You’ve given me lots to think about ❤️

      And thanks to you HG for providing us not only with a place to discuss all this. But for giving us the advice that has literally changed our lives. I know I will never be the same again thanks to you. There is no other place that can do this for us.

      1. HG Tudor says:

        You are welcome, E007.

      2. Truthseeker6157 says:

        Hey Empath 007,

        Can’t answer the question about closure I’m afraid. I’m not sure we all need it or get it entirely if we do. In many ways I think I’ve got as far as I can get with that. I’m resigned, and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I don’t think that means I can’t move on. Not everything in life always needs or gets completely filed away.

        I also don’t believe that moving on requires a partner. All things considered if everything else in your life is working well, job, health, family friends etc I’m not all that sure a partner is needed.

        I do have a question for you though. I might be way way off the mark but I’ll ask you to consider it anyway.

        You mention being attracted to a married man and have not acted on that. You acknowledge that would result in a toxic situation. I’m wondering if being attracted to someone married isn’t almost you finding a ‘safe’ option? It sounds like a contradiction but a married man is taken, he wouldn’t move in, wouldn’t take over, wouldn’t invade your life. It would be a part time thing. I’m wondering if subconsciously this presents a safe option in your mind, given your past relationship with the narc.

        You don’t want it to happen again, don’t want to be drawn back to the old narc, avoid him entirely, but maybe fear ensnarement by a new one? The complete take over. The risk of something all consuming again.

        I could be waaay off here, I could kind of understand that mindset in someone though, so thought it worth asking.

        1. Empath007 says:

          That’s a good thought Truth Seeker. There is definitely something about me right now that wants to create distance. Or set myself up for a massive failure due to my low self esteem. Thankfully this gentlmen is not a narcissist. He would not pursue things with me and I would look stupid trying with him. I don’t fear anything happening between us.

          However. He is the kind of man I’m looking for. So hopefully I can find those qualities in someone single ! Haha.

    9. Asp Emp says:

      Hello E007. I obtained ‘closure’ by reading as much as I could and in doing so, I learned (still learning) about narcissism and I also gained understanding about myself as an individual (ie unanswered / unresolved ‘stuff from the past – I’ve put it to ‘bed’ now). It was not an easy process but I managed it. It also depends on how an individual’s brain works, life experiences of their own etc. Maybe, one day, you will be reading one of HG’s articles when it suddenly makes sense to you and it starts the ball rolling for you – that is what happened in my case.

  5. December Infinity says:

    I decided that it is better not to waste my time on signing off. I was fed up, I ended it. I won’t get the money back I lost from him as he defaults on all his debts and is always looking for a reason not to work. He always plays the victim and is a hot-head. I did speak to lawyers about the situation and I figured that there is no point for me to waste any more money pursuing legal action against a low life. He was the one who had to leave. He is somewhere else now and good luck to whoever has to deal with him. They are going to need it.

  6. lickemtomorrow says:

    I’ve seen a recommendation by a dating coach today re: signing off on a relationship with a ‘goodbye’ letter confirming things are over. Suggested to do so in order to implement a period of no contact with a ‘wait and see’ approach. I keep tabs on these things because I was drawn in by this initially and it gave me a lot of hope. It was for the most part a matter of biding my time. And it worked swimmingly for the hoover to take place a short time thereafter. These people have no idea. It’s the blind leading the blind. Certainly in the case where one has been entangled by a narcissist. And the reality is it might work for some people who are with normals or empaths. Which means these coaches will get positive feedback and these people will get positive outcomes, all the while continuing on their merry way in the world of love and dating. Meantime there are empaths getting hoovered left, right and centre by narcissists who must be rubbing their hands together with an outcome that favours them.

    Empath mantra:

    “Resist the temptation to sign off and thus maximise your chances of a successful no contact implementation.”

    1. HG Tudor says:

      Well stated, LET.

      1. lickemtomorrow says:

        Thank you, HG 🙂

        It was an effort to get to this place and I’m happy to raise the red flag on this one.

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